The Big Picture - We Have to Blow Up the Oscars and Start Again

Episode Date: April 30, 2021

After a record-low-rated Academy Awards ceremony on Sunday, the state of the Oscars has been the subject of debate all week (0:21). Amanda and Sean discuss where the show should go in 2022, what it could look like, and beyond. Then, Sean is joined by Adam McKay, the director behind beloved films like 'Anchorman' and 'The Big Short,' to discuss his new podcast 'Death at the Wing' and the future of movies (1:09:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Adam McKay Producer: Bobby Wagner Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join author and former Vibe editor-in-chief Danielle Smith and Black Girl Songbook as she celebrates and uplifts the talent of Black women in the music industry. Tune in for in-depth discussions with your favorite songwriters, producers, and artists, as well as anecdotes from Danielle. Plus, you'll hear the songs of Black women who changed the landscape of American music forever. Check out Black Girl Songbook exclusively on Spotify. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Fennessy. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about whatever the hell the Academy Awards are now. After a record low-rated ceremony on Sunday, the state of the Oscars has been the subject of debate all week.

Amanda and I will discuss where the show should go in 2022 and beyond. Then later in the show, I'll be joined by Adam McKay, the director behind beloved films like Anchorman, Stepbrothers, and The Big Short to discuss his new podcast, Death at the Wing, among other things. I hope you'll stick around for that. But first, Amanda, let's get back to the Oscars. It's been about 60 hours since the Oscars. You were a fan of the show, of the telecast. I was not... I had a nice time till the end. You had a nice time. Yes. I think everyone had struggled with the ending. Many people, it seemed like, had a hard time with the show. The feedback has been pretty negative about how things went on Sunday. You know, with a little distance, how do you feel about the show? Similarly to Sunday night? Well, I had more fun watching the show than I have in the 60 hours since.

How about that? Which is inevitable. Listen, you know, the Blowhard Olympics always comes to town a little bit after the Oscars. And it, unfortunately, even before the Oscars were held, it was a culture war if you consume, you know, the products of Rupert Mur war if you consume, you know, the products of Rupert Murdoch and or, you know, his offspring. And that continued to be the case. And we don't really need to talk about that because I think everyone knows where you and I stand on that. But, you know, at some point, Donald Trump enters into the fray to be like, please

add a host to fix your ratings. So congratulations to all the add a host people, your spokesperson has arrived. But you know, that is the tenor of the conversation around most things at this point. And it's never fun. And I didn't find any of that level of commentary fun. The people who are talking about the Oscars in good faith, if any of them exist, and I think some of them do, was like, you know, it's kind of sad because I've been reflecting a lot on like what people who actually wanted to like the Oscars and who do like the Oscars and who felt disappointed by this Oscars felt disappointed by. And ultimately, like my best answer is that just a lot of people on Sunday night came to the realization of what a deeply troubled position this state of movies are in. It's like a lot of people are like, oh, oh, it's really this bad. And it is really this bad.

I love movies and I like a lot of the movies that won Oscars on Sunday night. And I like a lot of the people who won Oscars on Sunday night. And I like a lot of the people who won Oscars on Sunday night. But it's like really bad. And it's really bad because of the pandemic. And it's really bad because of the state of Hollywood. And there's nothing that like three hours of television can do to fix it. And maybe some things could have gone better. And I don't think everything works.

And we can talk about the nitty gritty. But that's what I've been reflecting on. And that bums me out. Sorry, sorry to be a killjoy. How are you feeling? Well, I've certainly been turning it over in my mind quite a bit because as you know, I care about the Oscars in unreasonable and unhealthy ways. I'm glad you brought up the Donald Trump thing. For the first time in my life, I'm glad someone brought that person up only because it reminded me of the single funniest thing that he ever said, which is after last year's Oscars, he was asked about Parasite's win. And he started complaining about the idea of giving the best picture Oscar to a film from South Korea and how that was, we were having trouble in the trade negotiations with Korea.

And so that was a bad idea. And then he said at the end of that comment, was it any good? I don't know. And that kind of sums up a lot of commentary around this year's Oscars as well, which is that, you know, one of the challenges of the show was that there was just not as much awareness and engagement with the movies, which I think does speak to the comment that you're making, which is that movies are in a tough spot. A lot of movies did not come out last year. Many of those that did were a lot smaller than the ones we're used to seeing at the Academy Awards. And so, you know, one of the reasons I was kind of bitching and moaning about not having clips is because I had a concern that there was a low level of engagement with the films. And one of the only ways people who haven't seen the films can get a taste of the films is when they watch this big award show. So, well, sort of, sort of, I, I, I thought about clips. I have a funny thing about to ask you about clips later. But I had a Juliette Lippman and I did a kind of Oscars post-mortem from like a show and celebrity and fashion perspective on the obsession.

And I thought it was a very interesting to me conversation speaking to Juliet who loves television, loves awards shows, knows a lot about kind of putting things like this together and had watched one of the eight movies and was like very upfront about that. And, you know, we did a lightning round. She said, yes, they could have used a host. She was like a no on the clips. But one of the things that Juliet pointed out in our conversation reinforced to me was like the Oscars aren't just a three hour TV show. They're everything leading up to the three hour TV show. It is like the whole season. It is the media circus around the season.

It is all of the memes of Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston, like behind this stage at whatever awards show it was. It is the like awards speeches. There is usually a greater level of awareness ahead of time, just of these people as media figures and narratives. And so that even if you haven't seen these movies, you've like encountered someone on the Today Show or Entertainment Tonight or like a weird Twitter joke or if you were at all vaguely interested you have like something to latch on to before you get to the awards show so that

in three hours like people don't have to explain an entire 15 months of cinema to you and all of these people and then like make you care because that's like kind of impossible but I don't think again I don't know whether clips could have fixed it but for me it was the loss of everything around it and I was like oh yeah that really that made a big difference this year and I think that was reflected in a lot of people being like huh I don't I don't know what's going on and I don't really care it was definitely a factor it was the context-free Oscars in many ways. And so I think, and there were not necessarily as many kind of starry names as we're used to seeing.

So you combine those two things and then you get that issue. You know, it's tricky though, because even on this show, we're as guilty of pulling back as the Today Show is and as the series of critical bodies around the country are. Because someone, a loyal listener to the show, tweeted at me, like, what happened to the big race and stock up, stock down and all the categories you guys used to do on the podcast

last year? And I think we were both kind of like, I don't think people care about this race. And so it was a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy here where if we talked a little bit about the concept of the asterisk Oscars, and I think that there is some reluctance to affix that title because it seems to undermine the wins. And it's not about the wins. It's not about the films and the people who are recognized. It's about the entire engagement around it. It's about that run-up that you're talking about. It's about the show itself. It's about all the decisions that are made that are not the performances and the filmmaking and the people being recognized for that work. And this is an industry. And part of the reason there's so much

anxiety inside the business right now about this award show is because it's an important industry. It makes a lot of money. And the ratings were very bad. Now, we knew they were going to be bad. They're about as bad as we thought they would be. But what to do next is a big conversation and one we'll basically have on this episode. Yeah, though, just to go back to the quote asterisk Oscars, which I don't want to fix to the nominees, you know, as I was like going to sleep on Sunday night, I was thinking about the fact like we like barely recognize the fact that Chloe Zhao is the second woman to ever win a Best Director Oscar, which is, again, like, an insane and embarrassing stat in one, you know, context and also is, like, an extremely exciting thing that happened on Sunday night. And, like, we just, everyone blew past it for a number of reasons.

We'll get to them. So I don't want to undermine that because a lot of people I like won Oscars on Sunday night and I think they deserved them. But like this was a weird year. This was a year in a pandemic. Like 14 movies total were released. Like we, I'm serious. Theaters were closed. We all lived through something that, you know, affected parts of our lives far more serious than the movies, but like we couldn't see movies. Like it, they just, there was nothing to work with. And so I think that it is important to take like some lessons from this year and this Oscar ceremony, but like my number one recommendation for the next Oscar ceremony would be like, God, I hope

we can release some movies, you know, like that, Like some of it is just that this was a sing, hopefully singular and really weird moment in time that was sort of like in terms of all the entertainment industries, like disproportionately consequential for movies. Yeah. And, and interestingly, the award season basically starts in about six weeks when in the Heights comes out. So we're, we're going to be back into... And In the Heights is a much more mainstream, classical, Broadway musical adaptation.

And I don't know if it's definitely going to vie for Oscars, but it kind of feels that way. That's kind of the conversation around the town right now. People were excited to see it. It was certainly... The trailer was released or you know uh touted during the oscars ceremony which was um what were the three movies west side story in the heights and there was one more trailer that i can't remember right now fast nine i'm pretty sure fast nine was advertised yeah yeah i don't was there there was a third like

oscar film i can't even remember recall i saw a lot of disney plus advertisements as i recall I'm pretty sure Fast 9 was advertised. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, was there, there was a third like Oscar film. I can't even remember recall. I saw a lot of Disney plus advertisements. Yes, exactly. Um, what else, anything else before we get into the,

to, to some mailbag questions? There were a lot of mailbag questions. Unsurprisingly, there always are after the Academy Awards. I don't think so. I think that I, I'm sure that I had some,

Oh, here, I'll just do my clips thing right now. Since you feel like really trying, it's just a question I wanted to ask you had some. Oh, here, I'll just do my clips thing right now, since you feel like really trying. It's just a question I wanted to ask you. So when you are reading, like, just a written text, like, it can be a book. I know you don't read that many novels, but like a novel or something in a magazine or whatever. And there's like block quote text. Do you read the text in black quotes? No, that's not the same.

Okay, I'm just relieved because I'm also a 0%. I just absolutely will never read any black quote ever in any text, especially a poem or a song in a novel, but no. And I do feel it's, I just, I don't need the filler. If you're going to tell me what I need to know, tell me what I need to know. But here's why that's not an adequate comparison in my opinion. Okay. In the same way that you're a deep reader and a close reader, you are a close reader of movies and the movie industry. And 99% of the people that watch the Academy Awards are not that for movies. And because they're not, they need their handheld.

Because the Academy Awards is a TV show. It's not a show for people who podcast about movies. And that became abundantly clear when after the show aired, people were like, what the fuck was that broadcast? They were pissed off. People were pissed off about how not traditional and not hand-holding a lot of that show was. Yeah, I do think sort of the insistence on the traditional aspect of the Oscars, everything from the order to how dare you not have a host, even though... And I get it from an energy perspective, because, because at some point I think all of us, myself

included, just would love to, to get back to a place where the Oscars can do like Hollywood razzle dazzle for a while, you know, and like George Clooney's there like making a martini or whatever. That's a Sofia Coppola Christmas special reference for absolutely no one, but yours truly. But like, you know, I understand that part of wanting a host for like that energy. And but the functional part of a host where it's like now there will be this category and here's what's going on. Like this ceremony actually did have that. It did have it.

It was just like the boring version of it. And I do actually think the ceremony had like plenty of information and even dare I say it, some clips of the movies, but it apparently was not the clips people wanted to see, or it was not the type of information that people wanted, like possibly just because they weren't interested in what they were seeing. I think that we're speculating about a number of different straw men and women here. You know, it's a little bit hard to know what specifically people wanted. Frankly, most people didn't ask for anything because they simply did not watch the show it's true um there was a pretty significant downturn in viewership this year whether i think they're going to do what you're suggesting i think

next year it's going to be big top central it's going to be the barnum and bailey oscars and we can talk about that let's let's use that as an opportunity to do mailbag so bobby why don't you jump in and read us some of these questions? Yeah, the first question is just exactly what you guys are talking about. It's from Zachary. Will we see any drastic decisions made due to the low viewership or will the Academy chalk it up to 2020? Both. Yes, agreed. They're going to change a lot of stuff and they're going to chalk it up to 2020.

And my one regret about this, Amanda, and we didn't talk about this on Sunday night, but I'm curious what you think. I don't think actually Soderbergh went far enough. I think that there might have been a way to kind of grab back the narrative here by saying, like, we're taking genuine chances as opposed to these kind of like, we're just going to futz with some things inside the margins here. You know, they didn't really break format in any meaningful way they just shuffled i think they took one really big chance that didn't pay off and listen that's what happens sometimes when you take risks it doesn't work out but i i do think that we would feel very differently about the ending um had we had a different best actor winner. And I think that that would have changed some of the conversation. And I, because imagine it.

And I, you know, this is such a bummer. I would say, well, my number one least favorite talking point of the last 60 hours was, you know, anything having to do with Donald Trump or his acolytes. But my second favorite was this kind of, this thing that was floating around about like the producers refused to let Anthony Hopkins zoom in to accept his best actor Oscar as if a wonderful, incredibly talented and deserving 83 year old man serving 83-year-old man, Zooming in from Wales, local time, 4 a.m., would have changed what everyone was frustrated with at the end of that ceremony. As if like 90 seconds of Zoom could have fixed it all in. Production values, amazing.

30 million people turn on their TV simultaneously. We did it. We saved the Oscars. Like, please spare me. The problem is, is that a person we all respect and think deserved the Oscar. We did not want him to win. And we wanted Chadwick Boseman to win because of what Chadwick Boseman meant to the movie industry and to millions of Americans.

And if they had had that moment at the end, which would have been very emotional and heartbreaking, I believe Chadwick Boseman's widow was there ready to accept. And if the ceremony had closed on that, like very emotional tribute to someone, I mean, it would have been moving. It wouldn't have like, like happy is not the right word, but I think it would have landed what the show was trying to do

a bit more because the show was a little bit earnest and a little bit reflective of a down year. And I think it would have made sense more holistically, but that didn't happen. So that was a risk that Soderbergh took that didn't happen. So that was a risk that Soderbergh took. It didn't work. It happens. There are a number of different permutations that would have been better. If Anthony Hopkins were present

and he had won that award and he had gone on stage and what? I'm just saying that like literally a month ago on this podcast, I let you know that Anthony Hopkins was not going to be at the Oscars and I've been updating you. That information was available way in advance advance I'm just making a point I'm not

but the point I'm just going to say like in terms of how it would have been perceived and received if Anthony Hopkins were there and he had gone on stage and he had accepted the award and he had dedicated the award to Chadwick Boseman which which he almost certainly would have, it would have been not quite the emotional recognition of Chadwick Boseman's passing that everyone was hoping for with a win, but it would have been a nice moment. And obviously Anthony Hopkins is a class act and he acknowledged that in his speech the next morning.

And I don't know that it would have been perfectly satisfying and it would not have indicated the 30 million people turn on their TVs, as you pointed out, but it would not have felt as anticlimactic, rushed, and frankly, careless as it seemed. It seemed careless. It seemed like they had not even really sketched out the possibilities, which made it seem, I think, to many people, amateurish.

And that's the opposite of what you want. And it's obviously the opposite of what we expect from Soderbergh.h I'm not saying it was amateurish but it was it was a big risk next year will be no risks like that you can count on every single award going in the order that it went in in 2019 because that's the safest way to get people to buy back in I don't think that means people are going to buy back in but I do think that they are going to supercharge the celebrity I think they're going to supercharge the films that the studios choose to promote here. I was thinking about this a little bit, and I know there's a question coming later about movies from the last two years. And two years ago, you never would have guessed

ahead of release that Joker was going to be a Best Picture nominee. But don't be surprised if movies like that are being pushed aggressively at next year's Oscars which is to say any superhero or event movie that has a tinge of prestige

or intellectual credibility anything that anyone could grasp onto guarantee it will have a huge Oscar campaign behind it because they need those movies now at this next show

I mean well here's an interesting question or maybe it's not because maybe it's just an asterisk here. I mean, I think that's actually been true for several years. And the reality is, is that the studios did not release any of those types of movies in the last 15 months because they wanted to actually make money out on them with one exception, which is Tenet, which by all accounts got no Oscar push because of the tension, shall we say, between Warner Brothers and Christopher Nolan. But the Oscars absolutely could have used more Tenet this year. And it's still won. It's still won visual effects. And if

Nolan had not been mad at Warner Media and Warner Media had promoted Tenet, Tenet would have had a chance in other categories for sure. Well, I just say that to point out that, you know, I'm sure the Academy would have loved to have Tenet making a more aggressive push. And to some extent, it seems like it's just not in the Academy's control, which is another issue. You know what is in our control, though,

is the live commentary watch-along podcast we're doing here on The Big Picture for Tenet. Get fired up May 6th. See you then. Bobby, what's next? I don't think anybody

from the Academy would have wanted to watch Tenet the second time to understand it and vote for it for Best Picture. The other thing is, no one but the three of us wants to watch Tenet

a second time. That's not true. That's another thing. Are people coming around on it? It's definitely going to be a movie that people will grow to appreciate over time because the ways in which they watched it during the pandemic were not conducive to a movie like that. Sean, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. We're going to do it. I'm excited. And I'm not saying that I don't like Tenet. You and I like

really liked Tenet. But I mean, it was such a weird year that even that which we expected to be like a huge internet crap these are like people were pretty surly about it they were but it's the kind of movie that people are going to give another chance in a way that like no one's going to rush back and re-watch the father or ma rainey's black bottom you know those are not movies that are like that the tenant is the kind of movie christopher nolan's movies are made to be watched time and time and time again now some people you're right definitely hated it there obviously was a massive rejection of it by some of his fans. And I'm not trying to make a case for that. I could care less. I've been as critical of Nolan's movies as anybody. It's more that that's a movie

that in many ways was deserved by the moment because it's best seen on a big screen. It's best seen on a big screen a second time. It's best seen also in an environment in which you can kind of pause and rewind and rethink and read about and engage with in a deeper way because it's so complex maybe needlessly complex but complex nonetheless we'll get into all that um next week but just from a pure crafts perspective that movie would have been nominated in every category and would have threatened in every category if there was a much stronger push behind it. Max asks, are we all overthinking this

and all the Oscars needs to do for a fix is to make it available on streaming services? Well, ABC has the rights to this show until 2028. Now, ABC, of course, is owned by the same parent company as Hulu and Disney+. So could this be a Hulu-only show? Maybe. Hulu is also where Nomadland debuted. And we're in this complex moment here in media where the same places that air these shows

are the places that produce the movies that win the awards. It's all one big club. If people want the Oscars on Netflix, I think a lot more people would watch it if it was on Netflix. But I don't really think that that's likely to happen anytime in the next decade. I think it would fix an optics problem. I think that you could then say,

wow, 60 people turned into the Oscars because they clicked on it for two minutes, just like they clicked on it for two minutes of, I don't't know what's it what's something that we liked that everyone claimed they liked but no one actually watched on a streaming service triple frontier yeah I don't even know if they claimed to like triple frontier but we definitely like triple frontier yeah you didn't like that one Spencer Confidential is good someone said that it's like 89 million people watch Spencer Confidential which makes it bigger than like gone with the wind right but so if we just want to say like the oscars are back baby because a bunch of people clicked on it for two minutes and then

went on to do whatever and we apply streaming metrics to the oscars in order to give it a boost yeah that's a good call they could they could definitely work the numbers that way. Sure. I like, I like, I guess that will help. And you know, I wonder if, I guess they would never do this because ABC has the rights and Netflix doesn't want to have Disney, but theoretically having the Oscars on your streaming service,

then promotes the movies that are also on your streaming service. So I wonder whether you could license it across the way at some point. So Netflix is like, sure, I'll co-host it because then people will go from this to the algorithm. You know, they don't even actually have to watch the Oscars. It could work. The second half of this question, though, can you read it, Bobby? Yeah, sure.

Max also added that they heard from a young friend who works in the industry yesterday that they were doing Oscar stuff but couldn't watch it because they don't have cable. So this highlights the second thing. I hope that this friend had a nice time doing work. And I don't mean to subtweet them, but the Oscars weren't on cable. They were just on ABC. And if you want to watch them, you can. You don't have to subscribe to anything so you literally just plug a television into a wall

and turn it on and you can also like you can you can watch it online if you want to it's just that the ingrained behaviors are such that you think that you have to have the tv this way so can you teach streaming people who like won't even hit into like a different like, you know, web address into it to like watch the Oscars on streaming? I don't really know. And the flip side of that. I had to log into a cable account to watch it on ABC.com. Like it was locked out

otherwise. I had to log into my parents' cable account to watch it. I think that would be not true if you were getting local feed TV. Yeah, like if I had plugged my TV in with a jack to the wall just with an antenna nobody i'm just gonna say that nobody under the age of 25 owns one totally but that but that what you guys are discussing speaks to a significant problem which is that the oscars is a legacy brand that is not connecting with young people has no idea how to speak to

young people despite the fact that it's gotten younger and more diverse over the last five years and people don't realize that you don't need netflix to watch regular tv to watch network television you don't have to have a login for that and and and maybe that won't be true in five years maybe everything will be strictly streaming services that's possible i myself i use youtube tv to watch regular television so i'm actually using a streaming service to watch my TV feed. But I don't know. The Academy can't do like cultural outreach to Gen Z. It's not going to work. They just got to make good movies. Put the Oscars on TikTok. I mean, they should honestly be investing in that space, obviously, to find more young people to get invested. But ultimately, you got to make more Black Panthers.

You got to make more movies that young people really feel connected to. And if you don't do that, and with all due respect to Nomadland, which I loved, Nomadland is about a 60-year-old woman who's lost her husband and is figuring out who she is in the middle of America. That's not a movie that is speaking to a 19-year-old. It's not supposed to speak to a 19-year-old. It's not the purpose. And almost all of the films that were nominated this year are likely not speaking

to young people. And so that is another concern if they're worried long term about that brand. Whether they are or not is not really up to me. I just, for the same reason

that like putting it on Netflix doesn't solve all your problems, you know, you have to figure out what to do with the movies themselves. Okay, next up, question from Jacob. Do you think the Academy

will continue to get big name producers like steven soderbergh or just return to the same old same old might as well ask one of the follow-ups here from broom kid will steven himself be back next year i mean he said definitively no and also quite frankly why would steven come back to make anything for you ungrateful heathens and also i like why would any actually good director take on this job like it's really hard they have a hard enough time finding hosts because it's so hard and it you're i don't want to say you're like set up to fail but you're like put in a very difficult position and it's very hard to get it totally right. And there's always more critique than there is celebration. And that's for the host, but the directors having seen like what Soderbergh

and how the Soderbergh Oscars were received, like it's a no-win situation. Don't do it. So Matt Neglia, who runs an awards website, shared a clip from the 1997 Oscars. I don't know if you guys had a chance to see this. It was of Cuba Gooding Jr.'s speech that he booth, who direct the show were doing during that. Now, this was the first award that was given. They opened the show with this award, as they should have, which I indicated last week. And obviously, that is one of the more memorable Oscar wins in the last 30 years. Obviously, Cube's speech was amazing.

He was so excited. He refused to be played off. But it was fascinating to watch an experienced live event TV producer and director do his thing, which is to indicate what camera to cut to, how to drive momentum in the broadcast, how to get people fired up. And there's this moment of incredible exultation when the segment is over and they know that they have something that is golden. They've just captured a moment that people will remember because that's what this

show has to do for people to care about it. They have to get you invested in it. And it's not easy to do live shows like this. We take for granted the amount of work and skill like Louis Horowitz, the guy who directed it at the time. I was like, I was like 60 something years old and he had dedicated his career to making great moments on TV. And so there's nothing wrong with using people who know how to do that work to make these shows. It doesn't just have to be a flashy name brand. Steven Soderbergh is a completely sui generis figure in filmmaking.

And of course he was going to do something that was more true to his creative pursuit. You know, he was doing something as much for himself and for his nominees and thinking as much about his experience at the show in the past. He wasn't making a show for people watching on TV. You could tell because we watched it on TV. Most people were like, nah, I'm good. I don't want this. I don't want this weird clubby thing that you're doing. I'm sure the nominees appreciated it in some respects, but I would be stunned if they ever do anything like that ever again and I think they had a pass because of all the stuff

that you outlined before Amanda but if they're going to bring in a movie producer to do something else like this again it's going to be like Joel Silver it's going to be somebody who's like what we need is either an explosion or a sex scene every 17 minutes to keep people involved

because that's how you have to produce these shows you have to give people fire and ice you can't just give them smooth and this was a smooth show that ended unsmoothly. Well, then Nathan wants to know, should Michael Bay produce the Oscars next year? Well, that would be an explosion every five minutes. And I don't know if we can sustain that.

Like 12 lawsuits before it's all said and done. Yeah, I don't think Bay's cut out for it. I think a little Bayhem at the Oscars would be fun, but maybe not for three hours. Can he produce like a, like a 10 minute interlude? I just don't think they'll take a risk with someone who is that, um,

aggressive, you know, like I don't be stunned if you hear the words, Billy Crystal about the next host of the Academy Awards. I I'm dead serious. Like I think there's going to be a retreat to a bit of conventionality next year. David asks,

I think it was mentioned on the Monday pod that they should bring back a main host who should host next year. And why is it bread? I mean, I love Brad Pitt, but nobody likes smooth, slightly removed, like,

you know, very chill people at the Oscars as we learned by this last show. So I, I love Brad Pitt. That's he's not the energy that you guys seem to be clamoring for. It does seem more like Billy Crystal. I, you know, Sean and I have talked about the rock for a really long time. I have to be honest as the rock inches closer to running for political office. Like I, I, like, I don't really want that to be a part of the Oscars either. Just in terms of him campaigning, I'm good. Thank you.

So I think someone like The Rock in terms of his charm and his universal appeal, possibly without an actual political campaign attached to it. I just think they're overthinking this. It's one of two choices, in my opinion. Maybe three. I think one thing that would be really smart would be for them to just get Tina and Amy and Maya Rudolph and make them the centerpiece of a show. They all have different talents. They could all do different things. Maya Rudolph can participate in the same way that Billy Crystal would with a song and with a level of performance. Amy and Tina are great joke tellers and great sketch writers. That would be one way to solve it. The other way to solve it would be to go

in a very similar direction, which is to just get Nick Kroll and John Mulaney to do it. Either way, it would be entertaining. It would give people that kind of comfort that they want, and it would make people feel like they're in safe hands.

These are people who have all hosted award shows before. I really think that they're going to end up doing something like that. I don't think they're going to do something even as high concept as The Rock. Even The Rock is still like, you got to put a lot of production and a lot of energy and a lot of stuff behind it. If you get somebody who has done this job before and done it well, and all five of those people have done it well, they can

have success. There were tons of, I mean, Steve Martin very capably hosted the Oscars many times, and no one was like, that was the best day of my life when Steve Martin hosted the Oscars many times. And no one was like, that was the best day of my life when Steve Martin hosted the Oscars. But they were like, boy, I was in good hands. Think of Jimmy Kimmel just a few years ago. People were like, oh, Kimmel, he's fucking good at this. Like, it's not that hard. Just find somebody who you feel comfortable with.

Next up, Dakota asks, loosely Oscars related, very loosely. What do you make of the citizen kane paddington 2 controversy while both movies have fewer oscars than mank only one has an escape sequence from a prison on a hot air balloon is paddington 2 the greatest movie of all time i mean i assume you've not seen paddington no i haven't seen it and i hear that hugh grant is very good in it. And I do like Hugh Grant, but no, I have not seen this movie. I've seen the film. I saw it on the recommendation of our friend,

Andy Greenwald, co-host of the watch. And it's, I think it's like his favorite movie of the last five years or something. You know, now that he's discovered a criterion and watches like three criterion films a night, that's a great point.

There's a Bertrand Tavernier film that he thinks is better now than just barely than Paddington too. But this is one of those cases where film Twitter has gotten like a little bit out of control where they're like, this is the only case where Twitter has gotten out of control. I just, just one of those cases, but it's,

it's what it was one from the day the film was released. Many critics and also people on the internet were like it's very important that you pay attention to the wonders of paddington too it's a good movie i like it i obviously have been known to overrate a charming kids movie rango but is rango a kids movie is that how we would classify it you think it's for don't stop the elderly what do you like what do you who do you think it's for I I honestly thought it was for like stoned 22 year olds I wasn't stoned but I think I was like 22 when I saw it we're all kids at heart when we're

stoned no I think I mean I think it was intended to be a children's movie just as Paddington 2 was but then was appreciated by like weird hips 28 year old hipsters in Brooklyn Paddington 2 is fine like the idea that someone is legitimately noting that this movie has a higher quote unquote rating than citizen Kane. That makes me want to jump off of a building.

Like that's, that's, that's painful to hear. Ian says, after hearing Steven, you in story, I'm just broadly curious what Sean and Amanda's first experiencing Terminator two was like,

you want to go first, Amanda? I'll let you know later this summer. I knew that. I knew you were going to say that. But I did really like that part of the Oscars when Steven Yeun told that story. And I actually, I think things like that will never be allowed at the Oscars again.

And that's a little bit of a bummer because I thought those moments were really charming. If they do it again, they'll be pre-tapedaped that's the sort of thing that you'd usually see in a pre-tape but you would never see live at the show um terminator 2 let me try to go back in time here tough tough time in my life my parents were splitting up but i was getting everything i wanted because my parents were splitting up right so normally my my dad would not take me to a movie like that but i'm almost certain that he did and you know i i think that's probably how the apostles felt when christ rose you know like i just was like oh my

god is this really happening this this this cop that looks like robert patrick just turned into a metal dagger how did that the wonders of cinema are real um and i was just i had a really emotional response i was nine years old what the hell a really emotional response. I was nine years old. What the hell? Could you imagine seeing that movie at nine years old, guys? It's a very special experience. Amanda, you will not be nine when we watch it later this summer together. Big Titanic T2 Judgment Day swap pod coming.

It would be nice if I could see it in a theater. Do you think that, I mean, I know that there are no theaters anymore for us to go to, but like, can we keep the revival in lots of theaters going long enough for me to see T2 on a big screen? Can someone oblige me? Yeah, I mean, I want to do a We Go Back to the Movies episode this summer for sure.

Yeah. It'd be cool if we could rent out a theater and watch a classic. So that could be a thing we could do. Maybe we could just buy the dome, Sean. I don't think I'm doing that well unfortunately for me maybe one day that's a good life goal is to be in a place where i could legitimately acquire something like this in a rama dome but not yet uh matt wants to know would nominating comedic performances or movies lead to an increase in rating oscars ratings are never going to be the number two broadcast again

but small things like this could probably show incremental success. Ignoring genres does them no good. Is this like, is this a Palm Springs question? Because I don't even know what other movie would have even been eligible here. I mean, that's my answer.

It's like, let's just like release those movies first. Let's make them and release them, both like comedies and genres. Again, like some of it is just that there were no movies this year. I mean, and there were like Palm Springs was wonderful and it would have been great to see Palm Springs nominated.

But like, again, I think they released like 18 movies total. And so, and people didn't watch those 18 movies, but also kind of movies just don't have the same mind share. And I think if you made more comedies, then people will be like, oh yeah, comediesies or action movies or I like watching these things.

And then and then maybe we can talk about nominating them. I mean, the Oscars have always historically done a terrible job of recognizing comedy. And it's a gift. It's much harder than regular acting, I think. And so that would be fun. But I think we could just start with like actually getting to watch the movies that would be my recommendation.

Kosan. Caleb asks if the 2020 and 2021 Oscars this is the question you were referring to earlier Sean if those two Oscar ceremonies were combined how many of the best

picture nominees from this year would have been nominated last year? Let's let's go through all the nominees okay so we'll pull up the 2020 there's 17 total nominees from that time. Let's go through all the nominees. Okay. So we'll pull up the 2020. There's 17 total nominees from that time.

I can read them all to you and we can say which 10. Okay. I don't really understand the premise of this question, but I'm on the train. Keep going. Okay. Here are the 17 nominees from 2019 and 2020 and 2021 as well in the extended window. Parasite, 1917, Ford versus Ferrari, The Irishman, Jojo Rabbit, Joker, Little Women, Marriage Story, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Nomadland, The Father, Judas and the Black Messiah, Manc, Minari, Promising Young Woman, Sound of Metal, The Trial of the Chicago 7. I think the purpose of this question is to identify how much weaker the crop is from this year, as opposed to the year before that.

So to me, the best way to do this honestly is to look at the 2019 slate and think about what you'd knock off and replace with the best of 2020, because there's no doubt that, I mean, the 2019 slate is one of the best Oscar years we've had this century. So let me, let's go through it.

Parasite, we're obviously leaving. Yeah. 1917, would you keep that in the mix amongst those 17 films? Is that one of the 10 best? So are we deciding or are we reflecting on kind of the Oscar narratives around all of them? Because you and I would be like, no, thank you. But we all thought 1917 was literally

going to win Best Picture. That's an interesting point. But see, I liked 1917. It's not that I disliked it. Sure. It was just in comparison to some of the other films. Right. But I don't think you and I would reserve a slot for it even on this list of things.

I think I might. I think I might. I would take 1917 over a number of... You do love a tracking shot. I do. But there are a bunch of the movies here that just did not really click for me. You know, like Sound of Metal didn't click for me. Promising Young Woman didn't click for me.

The Child of Chicago 7 didn't click for me. The Father didn't click for me. Like those are all movies that I would, I would take 1917 over all four of those. Yeah, me too. But that's still, if I'm doing math, we still have to cut a few. You're right.

But I have a few from 2019 that I'm ready to cut. Okay. All right. Keep going. Let's keep going. Ford versus Ferrari. Oh my God. You're gonna fight for ford versus ferrari no i'm not i'm not i would cut it i liked it how dare you i'm sorry bobby it was it was like a very nice movie it's like a classic wish they made more movies like this so that we then didn't have to be like every single one of these gets a Best Picture nomination. You know? Like, maybe we just could have, like, gone with our parents.

Oh, my God. My father-in-law loved this movie. And there's nothing more exciting than Rich just loving a dad movie. So I would love to have that experience for him. But, you know, keep it moving. There's only one movie that makes Bobby Wagner resemble your father-in-law. And it's Ford vs. Ferrari. That's when Bobby taps into his your father-in-law, and it's Ford versus Ferrari. That's when Bobby taps into his true 69-year-old man.

Yeah. My dad thought it wasn't historically accurate enough. He's a bigger car guy than Ford versus Ferrari was willing to give credit to. I just like, Bobby, I feel sad for you because you would have loved the 90s. Like you would have just loved the movies of the 90s. And honestly, maybe you should just like watch all the movies that we talk about all the time. The 90s and honestly maybe you should just like listen watch all the movies that we talk about all the time the 90s when sean buys a theater just it's gonna be bobby month he's gonna play every 90s movie that you guys want me to see and i'm gonna

go every day and i'm gonna take the month off i'm gonna be happy to do it we're gonna do v8 month it's gonna be all just rip roaring movies for bobby wagner i'm so excited. Fort Worth Safari is out. The Irishman, in. In. Jojo Rabbit, out. Get the fuck out. Joker, out. Little Women, in. Great.

Marriage Story, in. Yes. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, in. In. Okay, so that leaves us with seven from 2019 and leaves us with only three spots from 2020, 2021. Okay. Now I think Nomadland would have been,

would have been nominated in almost any movie year. Yes. So I would say it has to go in. Yes. The father for me personally is a no. Someone actually asked me specifically what I didn't love about the father. I can talk about that if you guys care. You liked it more than,

you liked it more than I did though, Amanda, would you put it in this crew of 10? No, I, I, I liked it. And I did though, Amanda. Would you put it in this crew of 10? No, I liked it. And I think the best parts of it were the Anthony Hopkins performance,

which I'll go down in history. And the screenplay. I made the case for picking it for adapted screenplay and then didn't pick it and got it wrong. So that's okay. I told you, you were so persuasive in that pitch. I know. We both blinked.

Right. It's okay. Anyway, but no you were so persuasive in that pitch. I know. We both blinked. Right. It's okay. Anyway, but no, I feel fine setting it aside for this. So if you haven't seen it, I recommend it. Okay, what about Judas and the Black Messiah? Which is a movie I like a lot. I like it too. Can we put a pin in it?

Sure. Mank. Oh yeah, you are really going to push for Mank. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and Mank is real. That's a flex. Showdown of my two fathers. Sure. And it's also like, I guess, like we're doing the nominating here as opposed to reflecting what would actually happen in an Oscar year.

Because I think that there might be a little fatigue. That would also be a lot of Netflix, you know, that would be with Marriage Story and with The Irishman. But I think this movie was going to be recognized regardless. This movie got 10 nominations this year by far more than any other film for a very specific reason. And it got two wins somewhat surprisingly in part because people have so much admiration for fincher even in a movie

that they basically did not like they had to acknowledge that he is such a master of his craft so i would say that it goes in there um minari is an interesting one i don't i actually think that this would probably work in most Oscar years. And it's obviously a movie that you and I both very much responded to and has wonderful performances. And I think its success is in part a product of the evolving state of the Academy, the comfort with foreign films, the increased international growth of that body. I don't know if it makes,

if it's 10 movies, I think it makes the cut. If it's nine movies or eight movies on the slate, I don't think it makes the cut. Well, then let's just make it 10 movies. And then I think it makes the cut. And I think Judas doesn't make the cut.

Yeah. I, I, I think that's probably right. Um, so then the 10 would be parasite 1917, the Irishman, little women,

marriage story. Once upon a time in Hollywood, nomad land, Parasite 1917 The Irishman Little Women Marriage Story Once Upon a Time in Hollywood Nomadland Mank Minari That's nine, right? Is that nine or ten?

Oh, I stopped counting because you were gesturing. No one can see you but Sean was like gesturing on his hand so I I don't I'm not very good at

retaining information when it's listed like verbally so tough amazing that i'm on a podcast but since we aren't like since this isn't being written down i honestly have no idea what we've nominated or not someone please email amanda a transcript of every episode of the big picture that she's ever recorded please don't i just you know as you were listing things i wasn't retaining

the information as you listed it i don't have that spycraft training yet we will get to that soon um it's an interesting question i think the point is taken which is that this was a it was not a strong a year no shit not a lot of movies guys we liked these movies but what i mean come on let's go to the next question um pj asks i've been thinking about the idea of Oscar bait and that it's well-worn, but what defines Oscar bait seems to be shifting from dramatic period pieces and biopics to quiet, arty, indie-ish movies.

Is Oscar bait still a thing? And if so, has the definition changed? I don't think so. I just think it looks different. I think that the films might be a little bit better that are quote unquote Oscar baity, but Minari, for example, is a family coming of age story. That's a very common format for beloved Oscar.

There are a lot of movies during the 1980s that look like Minari. Terms of Endearment is not so far afield from Minari. So I don't think that they've changed necessarily i think the fact that you're seeing a korean or korean american filmmakers and actresses telling stories that are getting that kind of recognition that is different you know moonlight is a little bit different but there were plenty of coming of age stories about young people in living in cities in america in the same way the moonlight was in the past it's just that the people who get to participate in the making of movies has changed so and it's interesting to

see too we talked about this amanda when hillbilly elegy came out something that is a little bit more prototypically oscar bait is more rejected now i think i think there's not as much room for a movie that seems to be like a noisy adaptation of a best seller about what's really going on in this country like those movies don't really work as well yeah another way that it's changed i was thinking about a question that we got on sunday night you don't really think of the and speaking of mink the movie that is like nominated in 10 categories and it's like a huge technical like you don't think of a movie as like a sweep oscar bait in the way that you used to and it's sort of there can be like oscar bait by category and they're like i think oscar bait performances have really stayed the

same in a lot of ways um and some of the technical categories like they have their own definitions but you can start start to guess like, oh, okay, this will probably get nominated in this, that, or the other. And then I think probably the type of Best Picture movie has changed a little bit just because kind of like who is distributing the Best Picture winners has changed and that um has a little bit to do with like the types of movies that the academy wants to reward but also has a little bit to do with like the changing landscape of the industry and who's running the campaigns that are actually winning and in the last five years especially it has tended to be like you know the more like independent distributors who are making these quieter films so well sort sort of sort of like in some cases yes neon and a24 and those those studios have risen but someone pointed out which i hadn't realized on the night of that the winners of all of the major categories this year all came from studios they didn't come from streamers they didn't come from netflix or amazon they came from searchlight which is owned by disney you know they came from warner brothers sure but like you know

and searchlight is obviously in a period of huge transition itself and has always been owned by like a major company but has like made a type of movie that is slightly different from the major studio drama that was released in the 90s that Bobby would love. So this is actually an interesting point that is raised by this question too, which is one of the reasons why the ratings for the Oscars matter, so to speak, is because a lot of films get made with the expectation of award success. And award success usually leads to box office success. Look at the box office success of Parasite after it won Best Picture. Look at the VOD numbers on the movies that won on Sunday night. Despite this being a low-rated Oscars, the VOD reports are way up on movies like The Father and Nomadland and Minari and movies that people never would have thought about if they hadn't seen them on the show on Sunday. And that's all baked in to the production costs of these movies. That is

something that is deeply considered. So if the award show goes away, or at least has a significantly lower impact, fewer of those movies are going to get made, period. This is a deeply calculated thing. Searchlight built its business on this mentality. And so this stuff is really, really meaningful, like not just where it comes from, but why it gets made and what it is that allows the films to get continued exposure. Because, you know, as you guys know, it's so much harder to make to sell a movie like Minari to the to the public than it is to sell Avengers Endgame. Dr. Washington, don't know if it's a real doctor or not at what point is there a category

for best voice work aka acting in an animated film I mean there's so many categories they have to add and so many that they have to take off the telecast do people not ever

get nominated for voice work I don't think it's ever happened okay I mean it wasn't gonna happen for Bradley Cooper and Rocket Raccoon it's never gonna happen without a specific category, it wasn't going to happen for Bradley Cooper and Rocket Raccoon. It's never going to happen without a specific category. I hate that performance so much.

I just absolutely, it's so annoying to me. I really like Bradley Cooper, and I look forward to his continued success in making live action films. I feel like they should just start by nominating someone in one of the actual categories. You want to get a little buzz going? You know, nominate the raccoon or whatever. Well, there was obviously, there have been significant campaigns to try to get Andy Serkis recognized for his work as a motion capture and voice artist. He did it for Gollum. He did it in the Planet of the Apes films. Those performances are even bigger than just voice work their voice work and physical work they

are a form of acting and those have been met with crickets they have not identified that as meaningful to be recognized at all and so if he can't get that love then i don't know if cooper's getting love for the raccoon like those are like transformational performances which i like to annie circus's credit but people don't really like transformational performances which i like to annie circus's credit but people don't really like transformational performances unless it's someone's transforming into like another famous character that they're doing an impersonation of like people like the academy awards tend to reward like personality performances this guy transformed into an ape right but like that's incredible like half the time people are just like,

sure, let's give, you know, Catherine Hepburn another Oscar via Cate Blanchett. Like let's give Judy Garland an Oscar. You know, that, that's what if he was Winston Churchill,

you know? Right. Exactly. Exactly. We got to get this ape to, to talk like Winston Churchill. But I do feel like it would be an easier sell of being like, oh,

you're very charmed by, youmed by Eddie Murphy and Shrek. So give him an Oscar for that. And it's as much giving an Oscar to Eddie Murphy as it is to whatever the voice work, which people like to do. Yeah. Get Gollum to sing Bohemian Rhapsody at Live Aid Challenge. No one wants to give an Oscar to Gollum. Okay? Yes, they do.

They did when that film won Best Picture. They were giving it and they didn't give it to Gollum because Gollum. Okay. Yes, they do. They did when that film won best picture. They were giving it and they didn't give it to Gollum because Gollum dies. But right. Let's just not like spoil beloved IP here on the big picture for no reason. Are you kidding me? That movie's been out for 20 years and the book has been out for like a century. And I've been being lectured about it for as long as I've been alive. And Elvis.

I don't know what happens. What about the aspiring cinephile 10-year-olds listening to this pod, trying to learn about the world of movies? If you're 10. Looking for a guide. If you are 10 years old and you're listening to this, I want you to know I'm really proud of you and I think you're great. And I want you to go I'm really proud of you and I think you're great and I want you to go do anything else okay like ask your parents about some productive things that you can be doing instead of listening to us yell about an awards show please do not do direct address to 10 year

olds that don't exist on this podcast thank you you started it make the next question you can watch the first lord of the rings and realize that column's gonna die guys that's just story comprehension um david asks how do we get them to hashtag release the votes this this is never gonna happen so let's caveat it by saying that because the minute it becomes a horse race in that way the minute it all kind of falls apart for them i think as this prestigious institution despite the fact that obviously me and you and and bill simmons and people for years have been saying that this is the best way to make it exciting i guess it could be a desperation act before they decide to like pull the plug on this show but that's not going to happen anytime soon it's like the numbers were way down this year i think they were they ultimately came in around

10.5 million people, but it was on par with every other award show, you know, just percentage wise. It wasn't so radically different and ratings are down for everything.

Ratings are down for the NFL. Ratings are down for the NBA. They're down for everything. So I don't think we're ever going to see it. Do I want to see it? Yeah. We talked about it.

How many, I mean, we talked about it 10 times on this show, Amanda, that we want the like ranked on unfurling of like show us in order on the show what place every every film came in yeah but we've spent the whole podcast talking about how they're not going to take risks anymore and they're going

to go back to the most traditional version of the Oscars because you know for a lot of reasons including it would seem that that's kind of what people want. Like you and I would like some really high stakes intrigue and I guess like some humiliation at the Oscars, but most people just want a song and dance and, you know, some crowd selfies and then, and then to go on with their lives. I think that if they're taking quote unquote risks,

the risk will be new categories. It will be ways to get more movies involved in the telecast. It won't be doing what you're saying, which is like embarrassing people by saying that they only got 3% of the vote for best picture. They're not going to show that. door opening and the nominee like falling through it i don't like and i know we've never talked about that but i just i have that very specific visual of someone being like you got 10 votes and then you know someone falls through the the stage who would be the absolute funniest person to fall through a trap door on the academy sarkin i would actually pay pay-per-view to see that that's funny that's it's little rude, but it's funny. Okay, next question. Patrick asks, how many nominations and wins do you think Small Axe would have received had it been eligible?

Impossible to answer. I mean, obviously, it's five different movies, so are we looking at it as a full project or as individual projects? I think McQueen, obviously, would have been nominated for Best Director. We've talked about a handful, Letitia Wright and Sean Parks I think McQueen obviously would have been nominated for best director. Um, we've, we've talked about a handful of Leticia,

right. And Sean parks and the handful of performers in mangrove, I think particularly, maybe Boyega would have gotten a look for red, white, and blue. He's won a bunch of Emmys and golden globes for that performance. Um, I don't know who,

what else Amanda? I don't know. I, I don't have a sense of how it performed on television. You know, it was a really critically celebrated series that we loved and talked about, but it also just feels like I didn't hear a lot about it after that, which is a shame. But I think it would be like in keeping with some of the other nominees, like Minari and The Father and Nomadland. It was like probably seen by as many people as those people, you know? Totally. So it's impossible to say.

All right, let's do a couple more what else we got bobby uh cody asks does a musical get its moment in the sun of the 2022 oscars or do you think something will race ahead of west side story and or in the heights what you've got a horrified look on your face right now you're so you're already distraught about the 2022 oscars no, I, I don't want to be mean here. I'm like not in a good place about the new West side story. I just, I like have to be really honest. I, um, I mean, remaking one of the greatest movie musicals of all time. And I know that you and I are going to do an episode about this in spoiler alert. I will be talking about the original West side story, which is a masterpiece. Uh agree. And they're remaking it, and they're doing it without the Jerome Robbins choreography,

which is essential to West Side Story, in my opinion. Though, you know, I like that they're trying something different, but it makes me nervous. And I just, the promotion for West Side Story at the Oscars did not make me excited to see the new West Side Story. I'll leave it at that. So I got a text message from our friend Chris Ryan two nights ago. I guess he hadn't seen the commercial during the airing, but this is what the text message said. West Side Story looks sick. Can I just tell you also that Chris also texted me about West Side Story looks sick. Can I just tell you also that Chris also texted me about West Side Story?

Like, I think he just, you know, went from one text window to the other. Just so we all know. Why do we not have a text chain? Let's go. Been friends for 10 years. It's really interesting because I have like a very robust one with Chris. I mostly speak with you on Slack. It might be like a platform thing.

Do you want to transfer it over? Possibly. I got word recently that most of your queries from Chris are things that could be you on Slack. It might be like a platform thing. Do you want to transfer it over? Possibly. I got word recently that most of your queries from Chris are things that could be answered on Google. And that that might be an issue long-term that you should consider using Google instead of Chris as your information center. No, I just ask him things that he knows about.

And I want to know his take. You know, it's like I could read a bunch of things about the Super League and the Guardian, or I could text one of the world's greatest soccer commentators in my life, Chris Ryan, and have him explain it to me. It's very, very strong. Well, I'm a big Chris Ryan fan. Can we give Chris an advice column?

Yeah. God, there would be nothing better. He would be great. Actually, let's move on because he would not be good at that, I don't think. He seems excited for West Side Story. He does so i i think that there's two things here obviously tony kushner wrote the script and i'm curious to see what he changes from the original story uh i think there are obviously some things in the original film that they're hoping to correct in terms of representation in terms of who gets to tell that story yada yada steven spielberg

you know he's very good you know he's very good know is Steven Spielberg he's very good to put it mildly he's very good invariably the movie will look amazing I'm not a big Ansel Elgort guy and it is

this is a classic example of prove to me that we need this because the original is so good and we'll find out we're definitely gonna be talking about it a lot this year will it be better than dune i don't know will it be better than soggy bottom it will not will it be better than nightmare alley the guillermo del toro movie

that's up for debate will it be better than the french dispatch the wes anderson movie that's up for debate there are some big movies coming out this year that are going to challenge it did you say house of gucci i didn't on purpose okay what what's up with you why is that your corner where you're just like i don't know about house of gucci just having fun just having fun in a pot but is that fun it's fun for me okay because one thing the text chain between me and chris is like a lot of just lady gaga set photos as i said So if you want to be added to it, you need to like join the House of Gucci hive. I can selectively choose what I respond to, I think, in this circumstance. That's why I don't text. Like you always ask me this. And then the answer inevitably is because you don't answer my texts. So I just text Chris, who's nice,

even though apparently he thinks I use him as a search engine. Bobby, let's put a bow on it. What's the last one? Dang, I have to skip over this who's going to play Zach Wilson question for you, Sean. It's going to be me. I'm going to portray Zach Wilson in the biopic about Zach Wilson. And Amanda gets to avoid another question about Octopi.

The final question comes from Gavin. As the lines continue to blur between television and film, how long until they combine the Emmys and the Oscars? Well, they sort of did this already, and it was called the Golden Globes, and we haven't really been talking too much about what's

going on at the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. We haven't. Because it's not good, and I think I don't know whether they'll just try to completely reinvent the Golden Globes separate from the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. And as someone who likes awards shows and likes, who likes a clubby atmosphere and an

awards show, which is a scandalous thing to say this week, but I still would like to get back to that. I maybe, maybe the Golden Globes will still exist separate from the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, though I assume then they would have to change the name because the HFPA probably owns the, anyway but I think that would be the first one to go before they combined the Emmys and the Oscars

here's the thing, film and television needs a Super League moment, this is a chance to reset the Golden Globes needs to go the HFPA needs to go. The HFPA needs to go. That seemed clear a year ago.

It's confirmed now. That's a corrupt organization full of people who are self-dealing and bad actors and some of whom have incredibly racist tendencies. Let's get them out of the pain. Let's get a new organization in. I don't know what it is.

Because the thing I've been thinking about with the Oscars is it's ultimately not about the show. People don't really remember the show. They remember the winners. It's a hall of fame. That's what it does. This is a history-making machine.

And so the history does matter. So you need a body that has credibility. In sports, it's usually the media. It's the press. It's the writers. It's the people who cover it on an ongoing basis. In art, there's a little bit more friction between the media because there's a sense that they don't totally understand what goes into making the work.

And so there can be some resentment when critics decide on awards. So we have to find some sort of body, some sort of new thing that combines both disciplines that includes a kind of academy-esque group, a television academy and an academy of arts and sciences for films, and some sort of media apparatus that has credibility that can not be bought. And we need to build a new award show. We need to build it.

And every January, there's an award show that recognizes everything. The best way to do this is to eliminate the Emmys and the Oscars altogether and just make this the content awards. It should not be called the content awards. I hate that word, but that is the best way to describe what we're discussing right now. I was like, I was with you as like a new awards show and all the, you know, represent the craftspeople and represent the industry and represent the media that can't be

bought, you know, and then you just like went right off the cliff, my guy, get rid of the Oscars and Emmys. You just said the Oscars have history. We like, we need the history. We need it for the hall of fame. I, I I'm, I'm totally game to create a new golden gloves. I am really, really pro that. I also think it's just, it's so overdue move the Emmys to the beginning of the year, make like an, like an actual awards season. And it'll have the golden globes. You'll have the Emmys. You'll have the Grammys. You have the Oscars. Everyone doesn't have anything else to do. Cause it's like cold in the U S and you know, you just kind of follow these things. I still think they have some individual history. And I also just like, I sat through too many awards

shows where I just watched Schitt's Creek when like seven awards this year. And I like, can't really do that again. So I would like to be able to honor movie history and also preserve my sanity. But I think you're right that we got a clean house on the golden globes. And I think that if we could create a Super League awards that still has some of the fun elements and brings back like a lot of the energy and creates some of that award season vibe that I was speaking about at the beginning of the podcast, you know, a rising tide lifts all boats and it helps the Emmys and the Oscars. I don't know what you can do to help the Grammys, but that's somebody else's problem. Amanda, you and I volunteer as tribute to oversee the creation and long-term execution

of the Super League Award Show. Okay. Our annual salaries will be $58 million each. That's great. There will also be perks. But otherwise, this will be an utterly non-corrupt organization. All of the self-dealing will be public and it will be understood

right here. We're establishing on this podcast. Bobby, if you want to come along for the ride as an executive producer, you're invited. Your salary is $18 million a year.

I'll take that. Okay. We got it. Commensurate with my contributions towards the awards. I think, you know, the Super League branding is really going to work out well for us. So that's good. We're starting strong. It already has such a good positive Q rating. Right. And I think, you know, the Super League branding is really going to work out well for us.

So that's good. We're starting strong. It already has such a good positive Q rating. Totally. I mean, here's your chance. Pitch an idea. What's a better word? What's a better word than Oscar

or Academy Award or Emmy or Tony or Grammy? I got it. The Mandis. Oh my God. Absolutely not. It sounds like, what are the fake office awards?

The Dundies? The Dundies. Yeah not let's not get into the dundies territory with all respect to all the mandies out there um anything else are you glad that the oscars are over or are you sad well i'm always sad i mean this was this was a particularly year. I didn't really like the show that much. I didn't think it was successful. The public didn't think it was successful. I did like some of the winners, just like you did. I think, like I said, Daniel Kaluuya winning an Oscar, that's good. That's just pure good.

And I'm certainly not bothered by any of that stuff. But I want the Oscars to matter, but I also am not... It's not a club to me. but I want the Oscars to matter, but I also am not like, I'm not, I'm, I, it's not a club to me. You know, it is, it is mainstream.

It's one of the few mainstream things that I, I have, I'm able to get over my cynicism about and enjoy in a pure way. And I had a harder time with that this year. So I'm glad that we're done and I'm glad that we can start a new, what about you? Yeah. I'm, I'm glad that, that we can start a new, I'm glad that we're done and I'm glad that we can start anew. What about you? Yeah, I'm, I'm glad that, that we can start anew.

I'm glad that I'm, I would just like to say, I'm also very glad that technically you won an Oscar and I hope it's not the last one that he wins. Um, and there were a lot of winners, but it was, I mean, listen, it's been a rough year. We are maybe at least in the United States on the turning point of something. And I like fingers crossed on that. And also, you know, my thoughts with everyone else who's not in the United States, because it's not totally over, but it was, it's been tough and it was tough for the movies and it's been tough for everything outside of the movies, which is ultimately more important. And it's kind of, it's hard ultimately to get into get into a celebratory, fun mood about anything,

but especially a small fraction of movies that were released. So I'm hoping that by the time next year, we can actually be in that celebratory razzle-dazzle, George Clooney is just here for the hell of it, frame of mind. Because I could use it too. Well, Amanda, we'll get back to celebrating movies ourself. I'll see is just here for the hell of it. Frame of mind. Because I could use it too. Well, Amanda, we'll get back to celebrating movies ourself. I'll see you next week on the show. Okay. All right.

Let's go to mywelcome Adam McKay back to the show. Adam, how are you, man? I'm good, Sean. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. I got to start with this, Adam. Why did you decide to join us in the lowly world of podcasting? I actually am a pretty serious podcast junkie. I listen to podcasts all the time. I love them. And this was a subject I wanted to do for years, and it was just perfect for the podcast world as a deep dive. But no, I'm a big podcast fan. And we have a new podcast division at our company too. So tell me about that. Because

I remember when I saw you, I guess it was when you were promoting Vice, we were talking about the Ringer podcast. We were talking about NBA shows. We were talking about your listening habits and just the league in general. At what point did you decide, I want to be the host of frankly, an NBA podcast? Because that's really what Death at the Wing is in addition to telling a big story. Well, we started the podcast division at our new company, Hyper Object Industries. I knew, once again, because I've always loved podcasts, I wanted to do it. We had a couple other ideas.

We had one that was sort of in progress with Three Uncanny Four, another podcast company. So we were always diving into it. And I'd had this idea for like seven, eight years. I'd always just been curious. Why were there so many young talents that died in the eighties and early nineties? And then it, you don't really see it any other time. You don't really see it in any other sport. What was going on? So way back when I was, my friend, Tom Sharpling wrote for slam slam magazine and I was going to call Tom and say like hey maybe I should do this as an article but we were busy with what would that have been maybe anchorman two or the other guys so I just didn't have time and then the two things happened

we started the podcast division and the quarantine hit and that I was called Harry Nelson, who's our producer at Hyper Object for podcasts. And I said, let's do this. And he knew Jody Avergan, who's a tremendous podcast producer. I'm sure you're familiar with his work. And Raghu Manavalan and Brian Steele. And we had a great team

and we just dove into the interviews. And what I love about podcasts too, you can do something like this, leaving the question intact. If I sold this as a TV series, I would have to have the answer already. If it was a movie, a documentary feature, I would have to have the answer already. With podcasting, there's enough latitude that I was allowed to dive into it not knowing the answers. And it's made it so incredibly enjoyable and fascinating. So I was going to ask you that. Why not sell this as a doc series as opposed to a podcast?

But is that why? Because you felt like you wanted to be able to just explore without having to know where everything was going? That was part of the reason. I mean, when I'm saying I'm a podcast fan, I'm not just saying it like, because you're doing a podcast and I'm being nice. I really am. I love narrative audio.

I just love it. I think S-Town's one of the great works, whether it's film, novel, music, like the great American works of the last 10, 15 years. I think it's a masterpiece. And there's a lot of other shows, a lot of other miniseries and podcasts that I think are really amazing.

And there's an engagement on a level of imagination that I just love. And I just really felt like this was a perfect podcast. But a little bit of it was the practical idea that if I went and sold this to Netflix or HBO, you kind of have to know what you're doing before you dive in. And in this case, I got to talk to these people and learn while I was doing it. So I feel like this is the first time that you're the central talent of something that you've created. Is that true? I mean, maybe going back to the improv days and the sketch days.

I mean, I doubt, I mean, it's, I don't like to bring it up because it was poorly reviewed, but my, my one man show was off Broadway. Gerald Ford,

uh, did not do well, but that's the last time. And that was a, that was a disaster. The makeup was terrible. I could, no,

I did not beat Gerald Ford. The one-man show. I loved you being polite just in case. You knew I was joking. Did I miss that? I seem to recall the George W. Bush Broadway show, but I do not recall. You should have gone with Lee Iacocca,

not Gerald Ford. Lee Iacocca would have been better. Then the joke really would have hit. Yeah. Honestly, you should consider Gerald Ford as a one-man show at this been playing. Then the joke really would have hit. Yeah. Honestly, you should consider Gerald Ford as a one man show at this stage. I don't see why you don't do that right now. Oh my God.

That actually would be hilarious. I should just do it at UCB, but do it the best I can, which would not be so great. So we would fail. Uh, no, you're correct.

Uh, I've did a couple of small parts in some of my movies, but the last time I was, yeah, featured was really, uh, in the days. I mean, I did some stuff small parts in some of my movies, but the last time I was featured was really in the days. I mean, I did some stuff on SNL, but you'd have to go back to Chicago, UCB, Second City, where I was full-time performing. It's been a long time. Did you like it? Do you like this version of performing? Because it's different, I feel like, than being on stage or writing for Sketch or something like that.

I very much enjoyed it. And once again, because it was coupled with the deep dive on this subject with how genuinely interesting I found it, I didn't feel like I was really performing because I really was into it. I mean, if you told me I had to do voiceovers for like an Escalade ad,

I might be like, maybe I don't think me I had to do voiceovers for like an Escalade ad, I might, I might be like, maybe I don't think I'm going to do that. You might hear a little bit more drudgery in my voice, but you know, anyone who listens to the podcast can tell how enthusiastic I am about it. So it's, yes, I've really enjoyed it. How has it been different from say directing a film, just sort of overseeing a show like this, working with a team? Does it have a lot in common, directing a film? Just sort of overseeing a show like this, working with a team, does it have a lot in common, nothing in common?

Jodi Avergan and this producing team are kind of the key because I feel in some ways like Jodi and Raghu and Brian are sort of directing, or really like maybe Jodi's the director and Raghu's the cinematographer. You know, they're doing a lot of the work. And it's so great too, because they're really good at it. Jody's a really

legitimately brilliant, talented guy. So when you're directing a movie, even though you've got this incredible team around you, even though it's definitely a collaborative act, ultimately it's on you when you're directing ultimately the reason you're the director is you take the blame you're the final word which i'm fine with because once again usually we love what we do um but in this case it's it's a little more relaxing and they're like ragu's got to go get the people that are the guests jody's got to help get them they do the editing they do the mixing and i get to just fly in and give notes on it and then you

know yap away in front of a mic and uh so it's definitely less intense than directing i think is the short answer um and because it's investigative, if I can use that word, or it's a deep dive, maybe that's a better description. The process of doing it is sort of the result. And that's definitely not the case with filmmaking.

Each part of the process, you then go back and turn into the results. You're gathering materials with a movie. You're writing a script. You're getting scenes. You're getting shots with a movie. You're writing a script. You're getting scenes. You're getting shots. And then you put it together. In the case of this,

the doing of it is awfully close to what it ends up being. So using the NBA as a portal into conversations about addiction, mental health, violence, and our culture, there's a lot of big weighty concepts. When I first heard about the series, I probably arrogantly thought I knew exactly what this was going to be. Oh, an episode about Len Bias. I know what that story is, et cetera, et cetera. But it goes in some fascinating directions. The thing that it has reminded me most of, and I don't know if you've ever read any of these books, but the critic Jay Hoberman has written a series of books about films throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. His most recent one is about the 80s. It's called Make My Day. And it's technically film criticism, but it's ultimately a cultural history of our country. And I felt like, especially in the last couple of episodes that you've put out,

that has been really, the focus has been how, I mean, you're really expanding the aperture really wide on not just the story of these players or the league, but of the human experience of government, of organizations. It's kind of an amazing thing. So I was curious, at what point do you realize maybe we're going too wide or we're not going wide enough? How much is that a part of the conversation around these episodes? Oh, it most certainly is. I mean, we keep joking, are we in Adam Curtis territory? Have we, you know, and by the way, we love Adam Curtis, but Adam Curtis's works are as wide as can possibly be.

And we knew we weren't going to go as wide as Adam Curtis. It really is that we try and keep it somewhat visceral, somewhat muscular in the sense that there was a definitive change in the 80s. There was a very perceptible change that happened in the national narrative, in the way Americans viewed themselves. It, without a doubt, did harmonize with the emergence of this African-American sport at a time and African-American culture. Let's face it.

It wasn't just the NBA. It was hip hop. It was just African-American culture becoming the dominant culture for America and really for the world. While at the same time, America is swinging hard to the right and in many ways attacking these communities of color and withdrawing resources and scapegoating them. So that central idea, we tried to always stay around that root note. And if we were around that root note, we knew we were relatively okay. Now, that obviously would change when you would get into mental health a little bit. And it certainly changed when we did Drazen Petrovic. But always it related to sort of that shift of the national narrative

from a fairly left-wing country from the 40s through the late 70s into the early 80s to now what is one of the harder right-wing countries of the industrialized nation. And so, so long as it stayed around that tree trunk, we knew we were in the ballpark. Did you know every single figure

that you wanted to spotlight when you started because obviously draws in petrovich past uh you know around the same time as a lot of these other figures that you're talking about but i never expected a story as wide as his um when i heard your your latest episode did you have did you was there anybody new who kind of came up as you were unearthing some of the tales oh without a doubt every single one of them there was new stuff uh many dimensions to the story that i wasn't aware of and once again even though i lived through the 80s and was old enough to remember it it was you know middle school high school college um a lot of the policies i i vaguely knew, but I didn't know the hard details of them. I like your question, though. How did we decide which players to focus on?

And that was a big discussion that we all had, that Jody and I had, Raghu and Brian. And we definitely were cognizant of the issues that they could connect to in showing the portrait of the 80s and the Reagan Revolution and the NBA. There were a couple that we really debated quite a bit. A tough one was Reggie Lewis. We almost did Reggie Lewis because the question with him was, did he have a heart defect or was he doing cocaine? And then the result of it was really a radical change in the NBA drug policy. So Reggie Lewis would have fit into that window. But there was just too many questions. And there's family, is Widows still alive?

The fan base, we just felt very uncomfortable making that assessment about someone's. And the funny thing is we're really kind of playing into some right-wing talking points because the truth is, even if he was doing cocaine, so what? We now know it's a substance abuse issue. It's more like a disease. It doesn't affect the guy's character at all, but we just, it was a very tricky one. So we ended up not doing Reggie Lewis. Also, we could only do so many. We only have a certain amount of time and budget. So there are plenty of players. I really wanted

to do Roy Tarpley. I just think Roy Tarpley is a name you don't hear about much anymore. He was such a dominant player. He was a guy that if he hadn't had the substance abuse issues, would have been an all NBA player. That guy was a major force. So that was a tough one to pass on. Hank gathers is a big one that everyone remembers not doing. His story was especially because I'm from Philadelphia. He and Bo Kimball are Philadelphia legends. So yeah,

we really had to root through it. There's even like Nick Vanos is a guy that no one talks about. Nick Vanos died in an airplane crash. There's a whole like FAA thing that happened in the eighties with airplane safety changing. Jody like laughed at me. He's like, boy, that is wonky. Um, so God rest Nick Vanos, his soul, um, nothing but respect to his family. But, uh, that, that would be an an example that fits into what you're asking me. There were times where it went slightly too, the aperture got too open.

Nick Vanos would have been one of those. I don't know, man. Sounds like season two, potentially. I mean, we've talked about it. Sadly, once again, so many guys died during that time. You could do a season two. You really could.

Do you have any cynicism about the league when you watch it now like you're obviously a big fan and there's a lot of complexity around the way the players are treated obviously going having gone through the pandemic over the last 14 15 months there's been a lot of conversation about you know what these guys are being asked to do a lot of the series is about the way that players are treated or perceived or portrayed by the media. Is it hard for you to just watch the game and love the game, period? It's funny. I have the opposite of cynicism about the NBA. I actually think it's a remarkably positive, almost Hollywood movie ending type of situation.

I think the NBA did the thing that maybe America stopped doing at a certain point, which was when it made mistakes, it learned and it grew from them. And all these tragedies you see in the 80s, there's plenty of mistakes the NBA made in that time. And some of them aren't even covered in our podcast, like when they address codes for the players and trying to constantly cater to this white audience. They learned, they grew, they embraced it. And it's why, I mean, it was crazy during this pandemic to see the NBA actually dealing with it while our country couldn't. While our sad, broken nation didn't know what to do with it. Half of us didn't believe it

was real. The government wasn't doing anything, shifting blame, profitizing. Well, the NBA goes up and sets up this amazing bubble and pulls off an incredible display of basketball and competition. And it was amazing. So I'm not at all cynical about the NBA. However, it's not an iris out ending. It's not over because now you know this. Now that they're an international league, they've got international problems. And the China thing was a disaster. I mean, that was really an embarrassment for the league.

Daryl Morey speaking up in a really benign, harmless way, and then seeing everyone just roll over for those Chinese dollars. And then the last part of the story completely ignored, which is, sure enough, China came in and seized Hong Kong. And now there's refugees from Hong Kong, they're pulling books out of libraries, putting people in jail just for using free speech. So that was really an ugly, ugly moment for the NBA. However, based on their track record, it seems like a league that could maybe learn from that. And also, let's be fair to the NBA. I don't think there are any big corporations or businesses that have figured that out. I mean, China's got active concentration camps going on right now. It's as grim and as ugly as anything you can imagine. And in fairness, there's plenty of Hollywood

companies that still are happy to show movies over there. So I'll point the finger at myself on that as well. But that's going to be really interesting because the NBA, I mean, my joke for years has been there's only two entities that still work in America, the NBA and Taco Bell. Well, by work, I mean this, they do what they're supposed to do, which has come out with bizarre combinations of Mexican foods that you see the ads and you're like, ah, shit, I got to try that at least once um so by work i mean that um and the nba is really incredible what they've done how they've grown so yeah they screwed up bad with china it was really an embarrassment uh lebron james probably one i think a worse moment than his decision special which i sort of understood that but him bailing on daryl moore i

just thought was really shameful but i still think lebrBron James is a good guy. And then I thought the success they had with the voting and using the arenas for voting booths, I thought was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen that actually affected an incredibly tightly contested presidential election. So, you know, once again, I think it's possible to criticize without condemning. And I think, yeah, the NBA screwed up with China, but man, they've just been remarkable overall. Same goes with LeBron James. The guy is better at being famous than anyone I've ever seen. It's truly incredible. It raises an interesting concept that you mentioned Hollywood also being affected by this in some ways, which is that when you make

a mass market product, you're trying to reach as many people as possible. And the best way to reach as many people as possible is to offend as few people as possible. You don't make art, films, podcast stories that try that. You are obviously unafraid to express yourself, express your political opinions and your pieces. And I'm wondering if you think that that's going to be increasingly a challenge over time to have a distinct point of view, or if it's going to get easier over time. And it's just that we're going to have different strata of culture where there's culture for these people, there's culture for these people, et cetera, et cetera. That's really interesting. I mean, it really seems like both are happening

at the same time, right? It seems like the mass market stuff has gotten more mass and more, you know, and it's gotten wider and broader and more marketed. And it seems like the stuff that isn't, and it seems like the stuff that isn't mass marketed has become more niche and there are more sub markets existing it's really exactly what happened to music right it's music became a thing where you can be a middle class band right now i mean i'm sort of hoping that happens and i think podcasting is a great indication of it although recently it seems to be working a little bit where you have these massive podcasts being given 50 100 million dollar deals but i hope the middle class level of podcast and even the the working class level of podcasts still exist

i i'm fine i i i'm able to do it uh i don't blame anyone that that writes on a network sitcom or does has to do something that's more mass market. If you got to work and you got to take the job, I totally get it. I think once you've had a decent amount of time working like I have, and I'm not financially insecure, thanks to our worked values in the United States that pay me, you know, 100 times more than a school teacher, I think it would actually be a little ridiculous if I went and did big, giant, please like me network shows. It would be an odd thing to do at this point. But anyone who's young and coming up and doing that, no judgment at all. As far as where it's going to go, I think both will continue to inflate and grow. I mean, we pretty much live in an almost totally unregulated free market at

this point, except when it's regulated to the advantage of the rich. So you can guess that anywhere there's dollars, it's going to spread and it's going to grow. And there's clearly dollars in niche markets and there's clearly dollars for broad worldwide entertainment. So you're in post-production on a movie right now. This is obviously a movie podcast, but the things that you have been doing in recent years, aside from vice or, you know,

producing this podcast, hosting this podcast, producing succession, you've got a Showtime Lakers series coming up. Like is, does that seem at all like an indictment on the movie industry that someone like you who's had as much success as you have has put more energy into not movies uh i i first and foremost love movies and i love watching movies in movie theaters i just always have that's what hooked me on all of this was

seeing like the man who would be king seeing you know uh these movies when I was a little kid, The Planet of the Apes, and just having that crazy magical experience. I still believe in it. I think movies will be as strong as ever. You saw that Kong vs. Godzilla. While it's available on streaming, still doing $47 million.

I thought that's the greatest sign. I've seen the argument that cable, VHS, DVD will kill movies. We like to gather in groups and laugh and be scared and be thrilled and be, I don't think that's going away. As far as what we're watching, clearly that can change, you know, with IMAX and 3D and probably eventually holograms. But at the same time, it's been really exciting to see. I mean, did you ever think you'd see like a massive explosion

of the documentary film world? It's really cool. It's the coolest thing ever. I'm sure I've loved documentaries my entire life. And to see that become something that we can now do, like the Q into the Storm series

we did with Colin Hoback, we produced. That was just the coolest thing in the world. And to see HBO as excited as they were about it, whereas 20 years ago, that would have been categorized as more like an ornament rather than the tree. So we're just loving it. Although all these mediums are great, I have no problem with any of them. But for me, the center is it's always feature films. So I'm glad you brought up Q into the storm. I wanted to talk to you about that because you mentioned S town and frankly,

it reminded me a little bit of S town. And that was not at all what I was expecting out of that series. I was expecting a kind of Wikipedia documentary about explaining Q and on and the phenomenon of Q and on. And instead it was this incredible character piece. At what point did you become involved in that? And what was your experience working on it? It was one of the funniest experiences.

A woman we work with, Paula Woods, contacted me and said she heard this filmmaker has some incredible stuff he's been shooting on Q. So it was the top secret thing where someone shows up at your door with the iPad. And I then go in my office and look at the footage and then I give the iPad back. And, and initially I was laughing like, this is ridiculous. And then I saw the footage and I'm like, Oh yeah, he's right to do this. It's pretty incredible what he got. Um, so he had already been paying for it on his own credit card for a couple of years. Um, and we came in for sort of the last third of the story. Um, and it was an incredible experience. Colin Hoback, I jokingly call him Captain Willard.

Uh, it's my nickname for him. I mean, he went all the way up the river. He heard, uh, he heard Q talk about the snail on the razor's edge. And there's moments during this series where you're like, is he going to go all the way or is he going to join him? I'm like, Cullen, how did you do that for three years? Absolutely incredible what he did. I mean, the moment where, for anyone who hasn't seen it, I won't give it away, but the moment where he gets Q,

that kind of usual suspects moment where he gets cue to slip is one of the most incredible things i have ever seen um yeah that that's where producing is just the best where you get to work with someone as talented and as smart and as fearless as cullen on a project with that kind of scope to it uh that's where i just love being a producer to get to support someone like him. Is, is directing still the thing that gives you the most happiness? Like what makes you,

what's the most satisfactory creative experience at this point? It's, it's distinctly the combination of writing and direct. I just love that combination. I I'm, I'm an odd person in that. I love writing. Like I truly enjoy it. I look forward that combination. I I'm, I'm an odd person in that I love writing. Like I truly enjoy it. I look forward to writing. Um, doesn't mean I, I don't have hard days where I got to go walk around the block cause I'm

stuck. Doesn't mean there aren't frustrating days, but I really, really enjoy it. And then the thrill of that script, getting to see it come to life. It's, it's uniquely those two things that I love. But obviously, I love directing. I just directed the Lakers Showtime pilot. I'm a producer on that, directed the Succession pilot, which I didn't write. So directing is fantastic. I love working with actors. But yeah, specifically writing and directing the combo is very enjoyable and exhilarating.

What's production been like in a COVID world? How has it been for you? I mean, it's so interesting that like, do you remember like 10 years ago where you would do an interview like this and there would be like two questions that you could go on and on about, or maybe one? And it just says so much about the world that you've already asked me like five questions that i feel like we could talk for three hours about uh so what's production like uh during covet i mean it was one of the strangest experiences i've ever had in my life i mean everyone's was it hard around Everyone's walking around. Yes, it was stressful. It was a little bit scary because as the director and as a producer, even though it's not solely my responsibility that they're there,

it feels like it. I feel like if someone ever gets injured on my set or God forbid dies, that I am somewhat responsible. And I don't think that reality has ever hit me as hard as it did on this and thank god and honestly thank netflix who spent the money and gave us the safety backup and the support that we had no positive tests in the red zone uh in the shooting zone we did have a handful in the yellow zone, which was the support security drivers. But once again, thank God, none of them were hospitalized. None of them were serious.

Not to downplay what they went through. It's still a serious illness and not at all pleasant. But looking back on it, yeah, it's a little bit harrowing. Even though it worked remarkably well, it was still stressful and a little bit scary. Can you tell me quickly just about getting performance during production like that? Because I feel like if the atmosphere on a set is more tense, it's harder to do the work that you guys do. Was it hard to get good performances out of people? That was immediately my thought heading into the movie was so much of what we do is about the environment so much of it for the actors so much of it for the the cameraman for the dp for the

light for everyone it is an incredibly collaborative experience as you know making a movie so on this movie i did a couple things i've done before. I played music on set a lot more than I ever have. I've done it a little bit before, but always just when the crew's getting tired, I could do a little bit of it. In this case, I felt like we needed it. And I also told the crew, you bring me songs you want me to put on this monster playlist. So not a huge thing, but something I did that I hadn't done. Another thing I've never done is every week I wrote a kind of check-in update to everyone,

just letting everyone know how we're doing. I would pick a song for the week. I would talk about actors who were joining us. I would do a little bit about the safety and the COVID and how great everyone's doing and remember to be aware of this. Um, and so those were a couple sort of surfacy or peripheral things i did and then we did more takes of scenes we did more rehearsing before more blocking rehearsals than we would normally do letting everyone kind of ease their way into

the bathtub a little bit more than they normally would um and then the fourth thing is just cheat code which is i got some of the best actors on the planet so that'll when you have meryl streep and dicaprio and jen lawrence and jonah hill and on and on cape planchette that that helps a little bit too so yeah it's been a weird year for movies i will admit to when seeing that netflix sizzle reel that featured you know one shot from your film i was like let's fucking go show me this movie now have you been um have you been an engaged movie watcher during the pandemic uh a little bit less so because of the movie because that was five and a half months uh but then when i came out of it i I watched all the awards movies. I watched everything. I mean, I always do. I always watch tons of movies. So pretty good. I don't think I missed any. I'm

trying to think. I think I saw all the awards movies and of course, anything else that looks interesting. You've been nominated for a bunch of Oscars. Obviously, there's a lot of anxiety about the show given the year and the circumstances. Do you think that show is important for Hollywood? Oh, without question. It's important for the filmmaking community. show is important for hollywood oh without question it's important for the filmmaking community it's important for films it's important for hollywood uh i think this year couldn't have been anything but an unusual oscar show it made me laugh the next day i saw some article criticizing it i'm just like it's a tradition at this point i mean you know so many people the more divided our country becomes especially so many people want different things out of it.

I thought it looked beautiful. I thought the Union Station thing was really a great idea. I love the kind of look and feel of it. You know, it was a tough, tough thing at the end that they kind of put all their eggs in the basket of Chadwick Boseman winning and he didn't win. That was tough. That was tough, man. I felt for the producers. I mean, having produced stuff, having been involved, you're like, Oh boy, that, that hurts. And I felt bad for Chadwick's family and friends. And I felt bad for Anthony Hopkins who gives a brilliant performance.

It deserves nothing but praise for it. And somehow gets cast in this bizarre cultural moment that really, when you look at it at its core, isn't really about anything. But yeah, my favorite movie was Sound of Metal. I just loved it. I thought Riz Ahmed would just knock me over. I thought the filmmaking was great. I shouldn't say my favorite movie because there's a lot of great movies, but that was

one in particular. I just didn't see it coming. Didn't know anything about it. Didn't know what it was about. It surprised me constantly. I just thought it was such a singular original work. The performances were incredible. Man, oh man, that one blew me away. So that one was on a streamer and your next film will be on a streamer as well. It'll be on Netflix. Do you have any feelings about that being different than I think almost all of your other films have all been kind of studio theatrical traditional releases? Are you doing anything different for this movie? Did you even consider that when you were writing or producing it? Once again, great question. We were just talking about it yesterday. I was talking

with my editor and our editorial crew and my associate producer about it. And usually what I do with these movies is I screen them, obviously, for test audiences. You try not to be slavish to the test audience, but to get a sense, to get a rough sense of the energy and how it's flowing and what it's communicating. We talked at length about the fact that watching a movie on a TV is a totally different experience. When Wolf of Wall Street came out, everyone complained that it was a half an hour too long. Now it's on TV and it's just a straight up masterpiece. When Casino came out, I walked out of the theater.

We were all like, oh, that was a little long. I really liked it. That was a little long. Guess what? I've seen Casino now 20 times. And on and on and on. You know all the examples. It was a little long. Guess what? I've seen Casino Now 20 times. And on and on and on, you know all the examples. It's a different experience. So I'm going to be very curious how we calibrate this movie. I think we have to cut it for the Netflix experience. But at the same time, Netflix does put movies out in theaters. It'll probably, this movie, fingers crossed,

if the vaccination rollout keeps going well, will probably be in 80 to 100 movie theaters. So it is going to have a premiere in a movie theater. It is going to be out. And by the time it comes out with the rate of progression we're going with the virus, it could be a half full movie theater. It could even be at three quarters full movie theater. So it's a great question. And i'm so curious how we're going to deal with it as far as how we we we make this movie but i i think just for a short answer is you can go longer i was just going to say are you subtly indicating by invoking wolf of wall street and casino that this that don't look up will be three hours long i don't think there's any chance of that happening but uh but could it be 15 minutes longer than I normally would go?

I mean, could it be 2.10? You know, I think that's a real possibility. You know, 2.15? I usually don't get into that time zone, but I think with this movie, I think you can. I got one more for you, Adam. So I've read that Don't Look Up is about climate change, at least in part.

And obviously all of your films, especially the last few, have had a consciousness about them, have been about big ideas. And obviously, Death at the Wing is the same. And I'm curious, when you're writing something like that, do you have both ideas operating at the same time, which is that you are trying to say something meaningful while also being entertaining? Because it seems like that's really the mission. Or is it something that is a little bit less programmatic than what I'm suggesting?

I think what happens is I'm definitely never thinking I'm going to say something, even though I'm sure sometimes it looks like, oh, he wants to say something. What it is, is, and maybe I've just gotten a little older now, I'm 53 years old. I just have a lot of feelings about these subjects. So for instance, like Cheney was really personal for me because having lived through it, having really been traumatized to some degree by those years and really being upset by it,

because that was a time where I was fairly active. And the same thing with the big short, it was like my father lost his house. Uh, I had a lot of people that were affected, a lot of friends that lost their jobs. So these are all like really personal, emotional subjects for me. So when I write them, they just come out as such. Uh, and you know, even vice, which I know was really polar polarizing that was like a really emotional movie for me i i didn't feel like it was you know listing historical events or going after the

republicans i felt like that was my experience of when the republican party became a radical entity and we had to live through it and it was asking the question of who the hell is this guy? So no, no, it doesn't feel like that. And it's the same with these other projects like Q and The Storm. Very personal. I mean, I have relatives that believe in that, that have gone that extreme. So all of this is oddly more emotional for me than when I wasn't doing stuff that was as pointed as these. You would think it would have been more emotional when we were just telling stories to make ourselves laugh, or if you're just telling a story where characters are dealing with some tension or stress. But these subject

matters, even though some people may classify them as political or social commentary, actually are far more personal for me. Adam, it's always good to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thanks, Sean. Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Of course.

Thank you to Adam McKay. You can listen to Death at the Wing wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you, of course, to Amanda. This episode came together thanks to the work of our producer, Bobby Wagner. Next week on The Big Picture, Amanda, Chris Ryan, and I will talk about the new Tom Clancy adaptation, Without Remorse, which stars Michael B. Jordan and is available on Amazon Prime Video right now. And inspired by that, we will be sharing our top five spy movies. See you then.