The Big Picture - We’re Addicted to ‘The Substance.’ Plus, the Body Horror Hall of Fame!

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Sean and Amanda react to some news about the Golden Globes being … a lot like they’ve always been (1:00). Then, they discuss Coralie Fargeat’s new body horror film ‘The Substance,’ starring Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley (13:00). Finally, Sean is joined by Fargeat to discuss the first body horror movies she ever watched, the production process for making such a gross film, how she sees the themes of the movie, and more (1:12:00). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Coralie Fargeat Senior Producer: Bobby Wagner Video Producer: Jack Sanders Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Complete offer eligibility criteria by March 31st, 2025. Choose one of five eligible charities. Up to $500,000 in total contributions. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about beauty standards and body horror. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Coralie Farja, the writer, director, producer of The Substance, the gonzo new body horror satire that we are discussing on the show today.

In just two films, Farja, who won the best screenplay award at the Cannes Film Festival in May, has established herself as a major voice in movies. Stick around for our chat. Very cool lady. First, lots of news to talk about before we get deep into the body horror, although there are some horrifying things. First of all, I just want to say thank you to the fine people at A24 for showing me the film The Brutalist. I've seen the film. I won't be providing any information about the film here in this podcast conversation. You also have not provided it to me offline and I tellingly have not asked. Well, the good news for you is that you'll be departing soon and you won't have to have any Brutalist conversations. So they haven't dated it yet.

They have not. So this movie is definitely coming out this year. Right. So I will at some point because I'm planning to come. If all goes according to plan, I'm planning to come back for the second half of awards season. Yes. Which is like the phase where everybody but you gets to see the movies and then talk about them. That's right. So in a sense, you know, I'll just be like following along with the listeners at home. So we'll see it. Yeah, absolutely.

Just not in this calendar year, probably. One thing that I will say that many people have said so far, and this I think helps you. Many people have said. Many people are saying and will say, is that this movie, while three and a half hours long with a 15 minute intermission, does not feel like that. It is a movie with incredible pace.

Particularly the first half of this movie flies by. So, I know the expansive experience sometimes a concern for you this is a very long film listen you just you have to make it count

well I think that they did that's all I'll really say Bobby has seen the film oh yeah at the New York Film Festival I did see the film Bobby will also not share anything about it

but we will talk about it probably like nine times Bob and I will talk about it over the next few months we go on brutal boys mode what are we calling ourselves brutal boys the brutalest boys yeah are you a brutal boy I. What are we calling ourselves? Brutal boys? The Brutalist Boys.

Yeah. Are you a brutal boy? I don't want to reveal my thoughts about the film yet. Okay. I hate to set people's expectations for things before they just see it on their own. Yeah, sure. There are no expectations for the Brutalist at this point. You know, it's like everybody's walking in.

Sad scene. No opinions on canisters. We got it. Did you see any of the canisters at the New York Film Festival? I did not. I did see them sharing the photos of it, but I was like, please keep me far away from that. Yeah. I don't want to be asked to carry something.

I don't want to somehow get a job out of this. I want. Okay. So here's what I need. I need a brutalist boy's hat. But inside the circle of the two, the two circles in the B is the canisters. Can someone make me that hat? This is like,

A24 has a robust merch program. This is really good or you could make like Bespoke. That's pretty good. I'm speaking to the listeners who have made us hats before. Speaking of A24 merch,

my friend Gilbert sent me their book for, they have a new book that's about movies for kids. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have it? It's wonderful.

We got it. It's really great if you have a small child and want to introduce them to, you know, book that's about movies for kids oh yeah yeah it's wonderful we got it it's really great if you have a small child and want to introduce them to fantastic you know short russian films from the 20s but also the magic of cinema i look forward to the great it's a great book updated edition detailing the production design of the brutalist for my three-year-old um that's all i wanted to say i've been i've been you did it about not seeing it i've seen it i'll probably will see it at least three more times this year what style of of hat would the Brutal Boys hat be? It's a fedora? It's black and

gray. Yes, it is. It is a fedora. That's beautiful. There's really no other choice. You know, I've never worn a fedora. I'm really glad to hear that. I will honestly think congratulations. What if I just went full Bogart and Maltese Falcon in my late 40s? Just every day, a trench coat, brown suit, red tie. There was a phase of your life where you were wearing suits to work every day. Well, I was working at GQ. Yeah. So, you know, it's not a dress code, but there was a dress code but there's an there's an instagram that's been ad that's been following me around where a you know a very stylish model um is wearing like basically a bowler hat along with

the clothes and i i'm like perilously close to like a bowler hat well it's not really like a droog from a clockwork orange yeah it's like it's between that and a cloche you know it's not like full i mean obviously i cannot pull it off you should give birth whilst wearing a bowler hat It's like, it's between that and a cloche, you know? It's not like full. I mean, obviously I cannot pull it off. You should give birth whilst wearing a bowler hat. I think that would be an incredible photo op. They do make you put your hair back, you know? So if you rolled up with a hat of some kind, maybe that would help. You'd look like a character from Chicago.

I don't know. I'm so ready to be in my post-pregnancy fashion that I'm just like, maybe it'll be a hat, you know? Great. I look forward to it. Has the episode where you did your look at this hat thing come out yet? I can't even track all this episode. Don't spoil it. Don't spoil it. That's my favorite conversation in a long time. Let's talk about something else that's ugly, not quite body horror, but something a little bit different. So there was a small Golden Globes controversy again. We've been doing this show for

seven, almost eight years. There was a Golden Globes controversy almost every year. The company was recently sold. It's now owned by Penske Media. It was like, it was, was it shut down and then sold? I think so.

It was like, it was like canceled because the long running speculation and controversies about these, and jokes at the expense of this group of people who really just accepted a lot of money in order to be close to celebrities and put on a fancy awards show. And gave them awards in part because of that. And they also turned out to be often racist or sexual harassers or all of the above. Very sordid history in this organization. Yeah, over many years. And so eventually all of that was actually reported out.

They shut down. Penske acquired the rights. Penske acquired the rights and brought the Golden Globes back, sort of, with quote-unquote new ethics. Lots more members. Well, we're about to talk about them lots more members uh and you know a commitment to honoring art or something the great works of cinema sure yeah television yeah and now what happened and now so matt bellany uh host of the

town and also who um in his newsletter for puck reports that basically the Globes are just charging, again, to be near the journalists, again, quote-unquote, who vote for these awards. Here are the rates. So last year, the Globes initiated submission fees, which do you have to pay to submit a film to the Oscars? I believe so, yes. You know, submission fees in general are bogus, but...

I think it's fairly common practice to have to pay. This year, they're charging a $5,000 plus per project administration fee to put films and shows on its viewing portal, plus $2,000 per film and $350 per episode of TV as a submission fee, plus more for individual submissions. And then they're also, for a low, low six-figure price, offering basically like a private dinner with voters where you can bring your candidates to the thing. This is much more problematic.

Yeah. The issue here, submission fees, you know, it's not ideal in what you would want to be an objective objective race but we're also talking about subjectively measuring the quality of art i mean we're talking like 10 12 15 000 you know i like anytime you actually have the figures i like to know about them yeah this is low low six figure price so it's it's variety the trade organization the trade publication that is you you know, pitching the, quote, intimate curated dinners between the voters and the studios. That seems just not ethical at all. So I don't know how this is being adjudicated in any way.

I can't imagine this is going to stand. Although, you know, this is like a private organization. Ultimately, they can do whatever they want. It just makes us continue to think that the Globes while fun to talk about and we will talk about them on the show. They put on a good television show. Absolutely.

I think, is Nikki Glaser hosting this year? Inspired choice, right? Like, that's the perfect person who should be taking shots at everybody in Hollywood at the Globes.

They have now a long-running tradition of that. But the actual, like, quality of the awards giving? A little dubious. A little dubious. A little dubious. The problem was that last year they were just so staid and following the conventional wisdom to not get in trouble. But you could make the case that if you take this stuff as seriously as we do, that this is quite a consequential Golden Globe ceremony.

Yes. Because there's so few frontrunners, there's such a, there's no set narrative that this nationally televised show could actually significantly influence Academy voters. Maybe not. Maybe not. I don't know.

But it's possible. It's absolutely possible. And so if there's any- And it feels like every year, you know, the more spread out the race is, the more any sort of signposts that people can hitch to, even to react to. Right.

In a non-Oppenheimer style year, for sure, it can be influential. So we'll see what this means. This is like such a silly story. It's always a silly story, except when it's a criminal story. But when it's silly, it's really silly. How much would you charge for your upscale dining experience with a guest list of 30 to 40 voters and what would the upscale dining experience be that's a tremendous question the just so i understand the voters are dining with me um and i'm up for something i well i guess so i was asking how much would you charge for being the curator of the upscale dining experience?

Oh, if I was organizing this event, not the guest of honor. Well, one, I would never do something like this with my professional life. Sure, of course. This is after, by the way, a panel conversation with your contending talent. I'm quoting directly from the pitch. So first of all, you got to sit through an FYC event. And then you have to have an upscale dining experience. I'll tell you something else to sit through an FYC event and then you have to have an upscale. I'll tell you something else. I like an FYC event. Do you? So I wouldn't mind. I like to

hear from artists and what they were thinking when they were making something. I do as well. The problem is often. When it's about Emily in Paris. I will have that. No, or just, you know, the problem is often the person hosting the panel conversation and upscale dining event. I've been there. There are people who are great at FYCs and there are people who are not what I want from, or not who I want to consider. Yes, understandable. I have moderated my fair share of FYCs in the past. I think sometimes I've done just fine. Other times I've not done just fine. Yeah. Um,

it all, it's a lot dependent on a lot of factors. Nevertheless, I would probably say this is like get it, buying a plate at a fundraiser or at a political, uh, nominees fundraising dinner. Um,

I don't know, five grand, something like that. Five grand. Yeah. It's all you're charging. You gotta think big, man. Per person.

I, okay. But, all right. But then that's $100,000 in the bag right away. Okay, that's pretty good. Right? That's not bad. Yeah. I mean, if I were being honored, that's a different story.

I'd try to bilk them for as much as possible, you know? If I already know that this is faux dealing. Right. There's a falseness to this entire would you accept the golden globe well we know tom cruise won't and that does influence my decision we know he's returned we know that categorically he sent them back before the reorg so you think he asked for them back when they were no but if they wanted to give him a new one um Well, I don't know. Okay. Let's give him a call. Tom? Tom, what say you?

Would you accept the Golden Globe? I mean, probably. I probably would, too. Yeah. I haven't won a lot of awards. I like to think, did you see the recent, like, so John Mulaney spoke at some, like, AI conference this weekend and just absolutely roasted them. He did. Which is, I love it. Congratulations to him.

Don't invite John Mulaney to your corporate sales conference. Well, I'd like to think that I would have that kind of chutzpah to be up there and just be like, you guys are clouds and this doesn't mean anything, but thanks for the champagne.

Oh, you would do that at the Globes. Well. Well, that would be dope. But like, would I actually do it? That's the thing is, that's how you know Mulaney is actually brave, is he's willing to look down the barrel of the 10,000 people in that room and insult them straight to hell. Right. I'm not sure if I could pull that off. The Globes, they've been a shameless organization for a long time and

they continue to toil in shame. Yeah. Speaking of shame. Sure. Shall we discuss the substance? Let's do it. So I've been talking to you about this movie for a couple of months now. The film first premiered at the Cannes Film Festival where it received- That's why people tune in to listen to you talk just right at me. Well, in some cases, perhaps they'll listen to the Brutalist conversation in that same fashion. I saw it a couple of months ago. It was acclaimed out of Sundance, or excuse me, out of Cannes, but I would say there's a pretty significant divide

in the reception. Some people love this movie. Some people think it is the absolute horror movie event of the year. Some people think it is idiotic tripe that completely misunderstands its target or misrepresents a critical feeling in the culture. It's written and directed by Corley Farge, as I said, stars Demi Moore and Margot Qualley and

Dennis Quaid. It's a story about a woman who on her 50th birthday, who is the host of a wildly successful aerobics TV program and also is an Academy Award winner. She's fired from her hit TV show and with the expectation that she should be replaced by a younger woman, a more attractive woman, a more desirable woman in the slot that she's hosting in. And this sends her into a kind of tailspin. She gets into a car accident. She goes to the hospital. At the hospital, she's told by a nurse that she should consider a very special substance which will help her feel younger and more vital and bring her back to her glory days. She's given a phone number. She's given a phone number and that phone number informs her of the

substance. And this leads her down an incredible path of discovery and destruction. We'll talk more about the details of the movie but yeah you know i have been eager to hear how you feel about this movie i mean you have been selling it specifically as just like an incredibly gross movie that it was it crucial that i see before i give birth to a human child yes um was that a nice thing? And you were like, you texted me as you walked out and you were like, you can't see it, but also like you have to, because we have to have a podcast about this. And somehow the timing worked out where it's like, I like I'm on delivery's door, you know? And, and I went with a, like a, my, my fellow moviegoers to like a sneak preview,

but still not a press screening, like a civilian screening. You're with the hoi polloi. That is not what I said. I was there with a lot of curious filmgoers. I was actually, you know, you go to a sneak preview of, what's the Blake Lively movie? It Ends With Us.

It Ends With Us. Or, you know, one of these with like a built-in fan base. Transformers 1, for example. You know what? I did actually, when I was going to my sneak preview of The Substance, I walked in behind three young women who were going to a Transformers 1 sneak preview that apparently came with,

I don't know if it was like a sticker or a magnet or there was like some special Transformers merch. Oh, you didn't snag me one? Damn. But, no, because I was honestly, I was a little late to the movie. And bless them, and it's their right, but they did, like, spend some time being, like,

Optimus, they were given Optimus Prime, and I think they wanted, like, another character in the rainbow. I'm not really sure. But they did actually, like, hold up the line in order to, which is fine. I just want to say for my Transformers 1 heads out there, there will be Transformers 1 content on this feed later this week. I promise you that.

It's an interesting time to be talking about Transformers. Anyhow, you went to a sneak preview. Yeah. Was it like a rowdy body horror crowd where people were like, I know this movie is going to be crazy. I can't wait. No, it was somewhere in between. I think because this movie has had a lot of hype, at least among, you know, indie film world, film Twitter world, young women on the internet world, which is sort of cool. And I think some of the dichotomy that you were talking about in the reaction is that it does feel like this movie is bringing a new type of audience to a beloved genre um

I have devised my top 10 in this yeah for our discussion today so I just honestly like a lot of uh 27 year olds who shout out to my are you 27 28? I don't know, 28? 28 now, yeah. Happy birthday. It was like six months ago, but thank you. Trying to respect you, you know? I'm just trying to, like, but the actual substance is, is brat green, you know? Like, we're having a moment, and so that seemed to be the crowd that I was with. And also has definitely, that's the crowd that my algorithm has reached onto. Yeah. I think the movie is baby's first body horror in a lot of ways. It just so happens to be an incredibly extreme version of body horror. This is not a over-intellectualized sort of

restrained version of this kind of a movie. It is, as I said, gonzo. It is big, bold, bloody, splashing guts everywhere. And when it's freaky, it's really freaky. So did it live up to that billing? Yeah, of course. No, it was very gross. I liked it.

I texted you afterwards, and I was like, I liked it. This movie is two hours and 20 minutes long. And honestly, for the first two hours, I was like, men are silly. This isn't gross at all. And then I understood. And I was like, oh, okay, I see. I guess the last 30 minutes, they really go for it in a way that I think is both like both justifies the movie in a certain way and I was also like oh this part is like not for me and I wasn't upset by it or anything endless it feels so long it's going and going and in some ways lands like the the blunt force of the movie yes I agree. Like, oh, okay. Maybe you're just projecting the image, you know? Was it actually placenta? I don't know. I mean, it was sort of like crawling placenta at the end.

And I was like, okay, this is, you know, it comes for all of us, I guess, in different ways. But no, I was charmed by it. And in some ways, I would be more in the baby's first body horror camp than, at least body horror made to quote unquote our moment which i do despite the very ambiguous time era of this movie do you think it's like speaking to certain things that are like recognizable and i appreciated the references yeah i think it's simultaneously contemporary and feels not quite a period piece, but like it's happening in an otherworldly absurdist Los Angeles. And that is definitely, I think, a part of the point.

I have, I've spent a lot of time reading a lot of criticism of this movie. I usually try not to read too much criticism of a movie before we do an episode. But in this case, I read a lot because of the divisiveness. And I think that there are a lot of, if it's a movie, if a lot of... If it's a movie... If a movie's plotting and its logic is messy and that is a big issue for you, this might be a hard movie to accept. If also a movie does not necessarily discreetly align with your own personal politics and that bothers you.

Or your own personal perception of an idea. That might be an issue. We've been talking about this this year. Where like a movie like Trap or a movie like Long Legs, movies that are very ambitious and very entertaining, but are a little bit messy in their construction, or you can see a kind of flaw in the design. Yeah.

This movie has some of that. It has a bit of that, but to me also, it has a little bit of the pussy island. The idea is the text is the thing. Yes. Now, I think it's an interesting idea, if not a new one. And there are a few scenes that complicate it or have stayed with me in one way or another. But like, you know, it is what it literally says on the label

that in the like very lovely like hims, hers packaging sent out, which was very good job. That was genuinely funny. The production design of this movie is remarkable. And is like a huge part of it. So at some point, you know, and I think we gave we gave pussy island like a lot a hard time for being like this bad yes like yes and you know but the negative yes and it's a very good point but um in in this case because despite it being a movie called the substance so much of it is about

the style and what is on the surface i was i like okay with it. Again, it went on a little long, but I am okay with the sort of one-noteness of it. Yeah, I think it's a very fair point about Bling Twice and maybe some of the... Oh, that's right. Sorry, they changed the name from Pussy Island to Bling Twice. They did, yeah. Sorry, it's still Pussy Island in my head. I mean, that would have been a more apt title for the film. The substance I really, really liked.

I wouldn't say that I'm like, this is the five-star masterpiece of my life. I really, really liked it. I liked it in part because in addition to it being such like a bold experiment, it's a movie that I think has a much bigger sense of humor about itself than a movie like Blink Twice, which I feel like ultimately lands at this like really kind of gravel-toned, like, God, this sucks. Obviously, the idea of aging in Hollywood,

aging as a woman, period. The pressures applied to you by the media at large and also by the, you know, social norms. Those are kind of deep and important issues. I mean, kind of talk about whether or not the movie really knows how to quite classify some of those feelings in the right way. I've, kind of talk about whether or not the movie really knows how to quite classify some of those feelings in the right way.

I've been looking for more writing and point of view on this movie from, candidly, women who are above the age of 40. I'm not super interested

in like 22-year-old point of view of this movie. Well, I'm so glad you're here. But even more so, I think I'd love to see like a 65-year-old

woman's perspective of this movie. I can't bring that to the table. What I can bring is like an absolute obsession with, you know, the movies of Frank Henenlotter and David Cronenberg and this long tradition. Which is what everyone is calling for when we walk out of this substance. Thank you so much. But obviously, Farja is in conversation with those filmmakers too. You know, when I asked her, like, what was the first body horror movie you'd seen? She said The Fly. Like, she is so heavily influenced by someone like Cronenberg.

And there is a small generation of filmmakers like Julia Ducournau, also from France, who made Tatin and Raw. She's also working in the same form as Cronenberg. I can bring all of that stuff to a movie like this and have a lot of fun with it. Yeah. And just know that it is go for broke, that it's like mania and intensity is so ratcheted that I already like feeling uncomfortable in a movie. I already like kind of squirming in my chair

and being wowed by someone pushing it to the 11th level that when you take the admiration for this kind of a movie, you take what I think is like clearly a good idea for a movie, whether or not it's like fully executed is a good idea for a body horror satire. And then the third level, this is just new.

There has not really been, there hasn't really been a horror movie from this perspective, I don't think ever. I mean, maybe like if you want to extend it to, God, what is the Joan Crawford movie starring Faye Dunaway? You know, like No More Wire Hangers. Oh, right. Yeah. That is like a version of this where it's extremity and it's almost like camp mania.

Makes you feel and see the world from a kind of maniacal perspective where like, you know, in fact, Joan Crawford had the world kind of encroaching upon her and it made her crazier and crazier and it made her a crazy mom. And I think the way that that movie was divisive, this movie feels like it is too. I just had a lot of fun and I wasn't really hung up on like, so like if you stay in longer than seven days, like are Sue the person who's part you know like that stuff that didn't bug me at all the the people once again reddit brain needs to take a break you know yeah i mean and and that is some of it and obviously there are like inconsistencies

and there are even inconsistencies inconsistencies or things that are kind of left unexplored that I think would have been more interesting to me anyway than just like 30 minutes of like teeth sticking out of weird places but I mean that was awesome again shout out to every production design makeup all of the above they went for it um do you think well do you feel aligned with like the perspective of the movie where women beautiful or not are compelled to feel like they constantly have to be doing things to maintain a level of beauty for lack of a better word to feel okay about themselves and to like exist professionally sort of yes and no and like and that's the interesting part of it, right? Is like to a certain point,

whether, you know, what quote unquote this substance is and whether it's standing in for Botox or Ozempic or retinol, which I don't believe that conversation has aired yet. But in a future life, Sean gets to learn about retinol, which is exciting for everyone. And like the things that you do to your body and also like the things that your body does really at any age man or woman but certainly as you get older as a woman um the what your body does versus like what we, what you see in public is like quite different.

And I guess also, um, this, I, this movie is conventional is not really fair because it's really just like American apparel, certain 2008 beauty standards or Jane or Jane Fonda jazzercise standards, which is like the obvious reference to me at the beginning,

but that there is one way to be quote unquote attractive. And anything that phrase from that becomes a threat to you. Like, I, I guess I grew up in that world. So I'm aligned with some of it. I think, you know, it's funny funny it was funny watching this and

being like well like maybe things have gotten better since which i which i think is like absolute bullshit and obviously they haven't and the world is run by terrible men but also i i mean like we you know we got we got to be real if you think that that is true then ultimately you probably are in alignment with the film's satire, right? Where the only male characters are ogling, evil, gross, bad actors. Right. But, you know, the professional success aspect is pretty narrow in the sense of I have not chosen to be a jazzercise star. I mean, I am on camera despite everything that I fought.

I saw that fan cam on the internet. Yeah. You know, that was... That was great. What a star you are. You are an Elizabeth Sparkle all your own. That was... Listen, I appreciate it.

Everybody needs a boost, especially in late pregnancy. On the other hand, I didn't really understand what was going on there. What are you talking about? I mean, like, I do, but it's better if I don't. It's better if all those kids, I hope, I love them. I appreciate you guys. I do hope you guys are also still going outside. I also, my favorite comment, because I read a few of them before I closed, was, I don't know who this woman is,

but I support you. And that is really what we're looking for. And I don't know who that woman is either. So, I think that's actually relevant to the substance. Yeah. Because I think the Elizabeth Sparkle character, it's clear that she is someone, was someone in this universe, in this world, someone of significant note. But maybe, you know, it's clearly on the kind, is someone, was someone in the, in this universe, in this world.

Yeah. But maybe, you know, it's clearly on the kind of back half of, of her career. Do you think that the, um, the intention is to make us believe that once upon a time she was,

uh, that she was kind of turned into a person who was obsessed and consumed and destroyed by her own vanity that like the circumstances of her own success have uprooted and and destroyed her own psyche i don't know that the movie really pins that down and that is and that is one thing that to me is more interesting than than like pure gross out is the character's relationship to what she's doing to herself. And spoiler alert,

the character's relationship to the other, to, to Sue, who is as the, the, the substance admin team repeatedly reminds her is not another person. It's you. They are one.

They are one, but like, they're is not another person. It's you. They are one. They are one. But, like, they're obviously not. And... Are they not? This is something I do want to talk through with you. The way that they are presented and the way they feel about each other is almost instantly adversarial. And... And does that not reflect the self?

I felt like it really accurately did. I, you know... These sort of competing impulses that you share about what should I do and how should I do it and what's better, what's good for me versus what I want. Right, and also, you know, that the older character, the Demi character,

doesn't benefit at all from the Sue experience. And in fact, it makes her unhappier even before the medicine goes awry and she starts really grossly aging. Yeah, we should say that if you don't want to hear any more about the movie, we've kind of just given basically the first 20 minutes in terms of the outline of the story. But we need to talk more in detail about the story. So as Amanda said just given basically the first 20 minutes in terms of the outline of the story. But we need to talk more in detail about the story. So as Amanda said, spoiler alert for Things in the Substance.

Spoiler warning. You know, the moment when we meet Sue, when she is born literally out of the back in like just an extraordinary act of horror filmmaking. Right.

That I honestly thought was very beautiful. This is the point where I was like, oh, I was like, oh, this is nothing. Yeah. I mean,

it's just like, it's, that to me was very Cronenbergian, the like, on the white tile floor. Very sculptural. Like it was like, you know,

but it wasn't gross. It was just memorable. Yeah. It was like, it was like Matthew Barney, you know, it was like Matthew Barney. It was an artistic kind of disgusting. And when Sue is born, we learn

that the dynamics of the substance are critical, that it's essentially seven days in and seven days out. So for seven days, Elizabeth has to be Elizabeth, and then for seven days, Sue can be Sue. And while Sue is out in the world, Elizabeth is essentially asleep, naked on this white tile and vice versa. And Sue can be Sue and while Sue is out in the world Elizabeth is essentially asleep naked on this

white tile and vice versa and even though they are one they have these kind of competing interests Sue naturally slides right

into Elizabeth's role as the host of a new show and she is ogled even more deeply by Dennis Quaid's character even more of a sex object

even than what it seems like her counterpart was. And the way that the movie portrays essentially like the male gaze, like the masculine impulse towards sex is really interesting to me because it is, I think you could say on the one hand, it's like ridiculous. It's like Margaret Qualley's like boobs are bursting out of her leotard right like ass shots galore like the camera is obsessed with recreating its conception of the male gaze on the other hand it's also so ridiculous that it could read to you as either heavy satire or like this is too much like you're overdoing it and it's kind of obnoxious and not. Right. Not only not fun to be with, but dumb.

Yeah. I was 100% in the former camp. In that it was knowing. In that it's satire. And also in something that I thought was very smart and extends to the whole movie but that it's like that it takes a lot of work and creation and and fakery in order for any of that imagery to exist that like it's not real like the male the male gaze like is maybe real but it is all imagined and can't exist outside of these like very very intensely created experiences yes which is like which is

like true of all things I mean you just I when I'm feeling low I just remember how much money is spent on every single glossy magazine shoot like it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars to make the most beautiful people in the world look that way for one second but it's just it's it's it is all artifice it's all substance you know you know in the in the in the injection sense not in the the word meaning sense totally one of the things i liked about everything around the sue experience in the first half of the movie was just the absolutely puerile nature of everything that she's like participating in you know that the show is not even an aerobic show anymore. It's just like a dance show that she's the star of, which is a massive hit.

That's somehow also a morning show. Yes. Which, by the way, they're advertising for as like a classified ad in the newspaper. So again, there is as much like sleazy, like De Palma 80s in this as there is, you know, Instagram American Apparel. It's a good point it is it is a smash-up of all of those different things and i think if you over literalize the reading of the movie you'll hit a wall pretty quickly if you accept that like for example near the end of the

movie she's hosting the new year's eve show and that that is the biggest show of the year right that is also filmed in like one small auditorium and that all the showgirls can be topless on national tv and it looks like a middle school talent show and like why are all the executives sitting in auditorium seats it's this is an outsized outlandish ridiculous horror comedy satire nightmare so i i kind of enjoyed all of those different choices. I thought all that stuff worked really, really well. I think Margaret Qualley as the like, the rendition of your sexual subconscious in a way for an older woman was kind of perfect. Yeah.

Like I think Margaret Qualley is going through this interesting phase of her career where she's obviously beautiful and she obviously has this kind of like ditzy, powerful affectation. It's like a very modern kind of like young millennial

old gen z like I'm really smart and strong but also I like I'm not afraid to laugh a lot and flirt with you

and she's been playing on it she played on that in Poor Things you know she played on that in I forget the Christopher Abbott movie she was in

where she was a dominatrix you know she's she's constantly taking parts where she's kind of capitalizing on her standing as an actress. So I thought that was great. And then the flip side is the most important part

of the movie, the most essential part of the movie, which is Demi Moore. Yeah. So Demi Moore... 61 years old. 61. Going to the absolute limits in this movie. Stripping nude. Having intense freakouts. to the absolute limits in this movie, stripping nude, having intense freakouts, doing the absolute most you can do as a physical performer. Right.

Committing fully to the movie. Someone who really hasn't been in mainstream movies for almost two decades. You know, someone had pointed out that the Charlie's Angels Full Throttle is probably the last big American movie that she was in. She's been working

through that time for sure, but has not been at the center. And there's been a lot of press around her. She was on like CBS this morning over the weekend. She's been on NPR.

And there was also, she did release a memoir. That's right. Written with Ariel Levy of The New Yorker, which I really recommend as far as celebrity memoirs go. And it is like...

Some really difficult things in that memoir. Some really difficult stuff. And also, I think because she's working with such a great writer, like a lot of candor about the experience of being a celebrity that you don't often get. She's lived a very different life than Jane Fonda in a lot of ways, but like the Jane Fonda twinning at the beginning and then the Jane Fonda,

again, one of the great celebrity memoirs if you haven't read it. Of two women who, as most women are in Hollywood, are like used up for their looks and then really do go through a fallow period. And if you think about that time period, if she left movies more or less, she's still in her early 40s.

Yeah. So it's even before the Elizabeth Sparkle 50-year dawning moment. And you contrast that with Demi Moore's 90s, which is one of the most powerful runs an actress has ever had. I'm not sure if the movies that came out of that run were as good as I would want them to be. In fact, many of them are not very good. But the way that she lived inside the popular culture is really powerful and influential and fascinating. You know, she started out as an 80s star Brat Pack member. We talked about her appearance in The Brat Stock and made some good movies and, you know, had movies

like About Last Night that kind of elevated her, St. Elmo's Fire. But then in the 90s, she gets into this stretch where her own sexuality and her own power and the way that she communicates it and her own body and the way she communicates about it in the movies and then in the press and then in her relationship with Bruce Willis, another megastar at the time, is so interesting, so worthy of examination. I mean, and you can't talk about it without talking about the Vanity Fair cover, which is in 1991, which, like, is truly one of the iconic images of our lifetime.

But she poses, she's as pregnant as I am, I hope. And, because I, and, but, like, completely naked on the cover of Vanity band affair which just does not we are very used to seeing some version of that now but like at the time no one like literally no one had ever seen it um and it has become just like very ingrained in our mental images of what pregnant people look like which is i mean hilarious because that's not what I look like or anyone else looks like right now. You know, she looks, she's so beautiful.

And even there, there's this standard of, it's something you're not used to seeing, but it's like sort of a perfect body image of this particular phase of life. Right, the pregnant Madonna. Yeah, exactly. But also you pointed out earlier, like, I'm sure a lot of makeup and touching. Right, the pregnant Madonna. Yeah, exactly. But also, you pointed out earlier, like, I'm sure a lot of makeup and touching Totally, yeah.

and a lot of work went into creating that image, which has then burned into the brains of a generation of magazine readers. But that magazine cover is coming on the heels of the incredible success

of Ghost, which I find to be a very funny pairing. This would be a great double feature with The Substance because it's another movie about basically talking to somebody who's not there.

And then Indecent Proposal which is a movie about literally buying her body. Right. And then Striptease which is a movie about literally amplifying amping up her body

and then selling her body. She's also in The Scarlet Letter and she's also in G.I. Jane. Also movies about her body. Like this is the core theme. And also Disclosure, right? And Disclosure. And Disclosure, great point. It's like favorite movie we haven't done in Rewatchables.

Right. So those movie choices reveal both what Hollywood is interested in her. Yeah. And what kind of parts she's interested in because of the amount of power that she's wielding at the time. And this very uneasy tension between success and ownership and desire and everything that comes in between those things. So she's the perfect person to be Elizabeth Sparkle because of the experiences that she had as an actor, as a movie star. And I thought she's like extraordinary in this movie. I don't know if this is the kind of movie that the Academy is ever going to get its head around, but this is

without a doubt mega worthy to me of a Best Actress nomination. She's incredible. There's one scene which to me is the best scene in the movie. And it's just her in the mirror. She meets some guy from high school on the sidewalk. And in a moment of feeling low about herself once Sue is out in the world gallivanting, she agrees to have a drink with him. And then it's just her getting ready for the date. And it's her doing, honestly,

like a bunch of get ready with me videos. And she's like doing different makeup things. And she looks amazing at first. And then she sees a picture of Sue and she's like, no, I got to go back. And the time that she's supposed to meet the guy keeps passing. And she has like a total freak out and at the end is doing clown makeup um and that's like probably the also the most grounded

scene in in the movie which is maybe like why it's memorable because everyone has been in some version of that um but it's it's her in a white box staring in a mirror just using her face as, you know, as a canvas. And it's really incredible. The other thing that we just got to point out that makes her genius casting and adds another layer to this movie is that Meemaw is 10 years older than the Elizabeth Sparkle character and looks fucking amazing. And, like, you better believe that my warped brain spent a lot of time just being like okay so doesn't look like fillers or the fillers have been dissolved maybe facelift at some point i don't think there's you know it's like literally i know and it's amazing and she is clearly game for it and the movie is aware of it and it's an amazing text like within the thing

right because she looks fucking incredible yeah it's this would also be a very interesting pairing with baby girl which we'll talk about um probably early next year but another movie that is playing on the very specific life decisions and like amplifications right that actresses pursue and then portraying those things in a movie and making you think about what the industry that they operate in is is is enforcing upon them in some ways um the thing i like about that scene that you talked about with elizabeth it is a very contained literalization of her psyche and i feel like the movie at large where she lives in a los angeles that is like basically empty she lives in a world that is kind of production designed to like a level of fakery it feels like you're inside of a dream

more so than it does in a grounded world the fact that just like in um Farge's first movie Revenge the movie has this sort of like proscenium um theatrical experience where there are these huge sliding glass doors in the home where the two characters are staying for the weekend and so everything that happens on the other side of those doors is this like desperate call to going out into the wilderness and in this movie you have the similar like this picture window right out into the greater los angeles and a billboard of sue that elizabeth is confronted by once the substance has taken hold.

And that many people have pointed out does bear a remarkable resemblance to the, uh, that the alley, um, billboard from a star is born outside the Chateau Marmont. That's right. And it does also seem like the home is positioned there ish in the Hills. Yeah. I don't think they shot in Los Angeles, but it does feel like they're recreating that. I mean, like, whatever, they're... Anyway.

But that everything is just like you're being forced to confront yourself all the time. When you're a person who's known best for your looks, that you're constantly having to look at how you look to make sure that you look the way that people want you to look. Right. Which, I don't have that problem. You know what I mean?

Nobody cares really how I look. It's not really an issue. And if they do, that's on them. I don't, I'm really not super concerned at this late stage of my life with like looking like shit. I want to look okay. I want to look presentable. Yeah.

But I think that the movie does a really fine job of showing you just how crazy this can make you feel when you're expected of this all the time. What else? What other things about this jumped out at you? I don't know how much you want to talk about the crazy finale. You know, it is profoundly gross and funny. It is funny though. It was interesting. It was only getting like very, very quiet, nervous chuckles in my screening. And I've seen a lot of reports of people just being like, it was just like a total barn buster.

Okay. You know, and I guess that depends on what kind of audience you are and what you're going for. But people mostly just seem to be squirming in mine. I mean, it's gross, so I understand why. Did you feel like, well, I'll ask you this. Yeah. If you could take the substance, would you take it? No. I mean, it just i mean it

seems honestly like a lot of maintenance you know what i mean and a lot of like i understand people are like well this this science doesn't add up but it's just like you really gotta stay on it you gotta do your the the bags every day i don't know like post ivf i'm not trying to do any more shots than i have to you know what i'm saying? That shit was so annoying. But that's a particular preference. It's quite a syringe in this movie, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the syringe is not the problem. It's just like

the amount of measuring, you know, and the titration that you have to do yourself. What's titration? I don't know. Isn't that when you're just like, okay, I need this much of this thing and this much of the other thing? Okay, I'll go with that. They make it like pretty user-friendly.

I don't want to be doing science, you know, at home. Just by your interest in Science Corner. That is true, but that's more theoretical. The thing is, I feel like this movie is not really, I know it's not really about science. The substance is about science, but this movie is a movie about addiction in addition to being a movie about beauty standards like this is what happens when you become completely consumed by something and i think it's a very accurate representation of that intense terrible feeling that addiction can lead you to where it's sort of like it dominates your mind anytime you're on it you can't do anything and anytime you're not on

it all you're thinking about is getting on it and the movie is really really smart about every time sue is out in the world she's worried that she's gonna have to go back to being not sue and every time elizabeth is out in the world she's worried about she's not out in the world yeah that's true and she's you know binging in her house and worrying over her gnarled witch finger right but she's concerned about how

she needs to go back to being beautiful to keep things on pace maybe she can find a way to fix the things that are wrong with her that's obviously also a key trait of addiction

is sort of like if I can just get one more hit I'll be okay I'll be okay this will make me feel okay I thought all that was really really good

I maybe no I did as well and like you know the the okay, this will make me feel okay. I thought all that was really, really good. Maybe I'm... No, I did as well. And like, you know, the addiction thing didn't jump out to me as much as the youth thing because of course I'm a 40 year old woman living in the world today. Yeah, in Los Angeles.

But that's a nice thing about it is that it does speak like on different levels. And also, you know, and also that maybe walk away from it being like, I wish it had spoken more to my issue, you know, as a but there are several issues within it that everyone is is kind of interested in. It's very true. So I didn't really get the Dennis Quaid character besides the the gross eating of the shrimp, which was really good. There was it was another actor who was supposed to be in that part. I'm trying to remember who it was. I don't think it's the actor

that's the issue. It's just sort of like, you know, obviously, male gaze, misogyny, men, you know, discard us or whatever, which is like, sure, that's true.

You know what it was? It was Ray Liotta was originally cast and he passed away. Oh, okay. So Dennis Quaid was cast in his place. I think that that character is the bluntest object in the movie. Yes, agree.

And he is meant to represent all leering men and all men in power. His character is named Harvey. I was like, I get this. And, you know, it's both underbaked, also i i didn't really need it to be fully baked i was like yeah yeah i get it those kind those men are bad the other things are more interesting to me but you know i thought it was interesting would you recommend this movie yes yeah i would too it's really really good um and if you're like really, really, really, really squeamish, you can leave with like 15 minutes, you know? I think you'd miss a huge point.

Yeah, I agree that like despite me sitting there being like, okay, I get it. You know, like I'd like to go home and eat my ice cream now. But like I also do think it balances the movie in a lot of ways. Do you? I think I know the answer to this, but I'm just going to enunciate it. Do you think that being held to these standards not you personally but yeah the royal you being held to these standards taking you know getting taking ozempic getting botox getting plastic surgery going to whatever means do you ozempic for beauty reasons as opposed to health reasons. Correct, yes.

Doing all of these things to keep up, to try to stay as young and as beautiful as possible for as long as possible, does ultimately result in what the movie shows you that it results in, which is that it not only turns you monstrous, but it blows you up. Quite literally blows you up and ends up in your death. I worry about it a lot. I mean, so here we go never done botox you're not allowed to do it while you're pregnant okay um but you know sharing well but then i'm not soon god willing i won't be pregnant anymore and i'm like oh interesting should i considering it yeah and i like because it you become a certain age or no no it's well it's because it's like more people i know are starting to do it or doing it in small ways or i'm interested in this or this

would fix that you know and it like but but i do you know my main issue with the fillers is like i see what happens after the fillers go away, you know? And I spend a lot of time looking at pictures of people being like, well, the filler worked for a little while and then it didn't. And then now you're on a cycle. So, but that again is like a purely superficial obsession that I'm weighing two superficial issues, you know? I'll tell you this. I respect you for your mind.

Thank you so much. Yeah. I probably won't do any of them because honestly, it just seems like a lot of work. That's the other thing. Once again, just going back to like the maintenance thing,

of how much time you get, you know, sucked into. Yeah. And money. I can't even remember to eat protein. So I have no idea how I'm going to find the time

to get Botox injections. I will say, this movie, well, I want to say two things. One, one thing that the movie reminded me of quite a bit was the moment in 2014

when Kim Novak presented at the Academy Awards and she had clearly had a lot of work done. And people were incredibly mean about it online, and she said even to her face, and she was incredibly depressed. Kim Novak, star of Vertigo,

one of the most beautiful women in the history of Hollywood, someone who obviously had some of this work done because she was being held to the standard that she set when she was in 1959. Right. So I felt like this movie is almost like, was like a one-to-one representation of sort of like, this is what we're doing to each other.

This is what we're doing at large to women in this environment. Sure. The second thing is we're like on, we're on video. We're on camera now. I know. And we weren't forever. And we've been, maybe occasionally we were. Let me tell you another,

one more thing about the fan cam is that they pulled some 2016 footage and I was like thanks so much and one of my friends was like damn you look great for being so pregnant and I was like well some of that is from literally a decade ago yeah but it does I mean I can't look at myself in the first place but when I look at myself I'm like dear god but and that's not ideal that's the other thing. The Kim Novak thing and this movie and what I think is most interesting. How much of it is external and how much of it is internal? Yes. You know? And how much of it is like.

But how much of it is also specific to if you are a person whose job is to be an image. Which not. I'm not talking about us here i'm talking about like the kim novex of the world or i guess the jane fondas yeah and then it changes over time i mean that is a pretty crazy making thing so some of it is very specific and some of it is you know could be broader i don't know i i did think the movie was interesting it's it's very very interesting um it's it's arriving at this really funny time, too. There's another movie that opened very,

in only four theaters, as we can call it, A Different Man, an Aaron Schimberg movie starring Sebastian Stan and Adam Pearson that it feels like faded that they would open on the same day. I hope more people get to see this movie

and that it opens more widely. It's actually an A24 movie that I think also played the Cannes Film Festival and is a fascinating flip side and not quite the male perspective even though it's male characters but it's about a man who is born with a disfigurement

and has a surgery that changes his face to look more like Sebastian Stan's face. And then he meets a man who resembles his old self in a wild series of events. And these two movies

are like so in conversation. It's crazy. It's equally like sort of surreal and dreamlike or nightmare-like as the case may be. But it does not have that psychotic, excessive,

hard-cutting, insert shot mania that this movie, that The Substance uses. It is a much more circuitous and ambiguous kind of a,

it is more like a dream and The Substance is more like a nightmare. Yeah. I really, really liked it. I hope more people see it. I mean, what are we doing

with the releases? This movie is less commercial, so I don't know, but but it is it's very small but it does also feel like another Oscar potential for Adam Paris and like it is possible I I mean I walked out being like wow let's let's get that going um he's in another Schoenberg movie called chain for life which you can watch on YouTube I would recommend people check that out he's in another Schoenberg movie called Chain for Life, which you can watch on YouTube. I would recommend people check that out. He's a great actor too. I thought Stan was amazing in this movie. Yeah. Fascinating fall for him with The Apprentice and this movie and his.

And then the Thunderbolts trailer out. I didn't watch it. I didn't watch it either. Yeah. Perhaps I will. Okay. I've got Florence Pugh back on the brain having just seen We Live in Time. Uh, body horror.

Let's talk about it quickly. I'm going to do kind of an impromptu Hall of Fame here for you that's cool you've probably seen a couple of these movies but not many yeah of course what does one need to qualify

I think it's fairly understood if the human body is going into an incredible state of shock or transformation yeah and that is somehow a representation

of a psychological pain trauma inefficiency you're watching a body horror movie. If you've got a hole opening up in your chest that's meant to represent the unfillable void of human pain, as David Cronenberg likes to show us, you're watching a body horror movie. If you are turning into a fly, you're watching a body horror movie.

If you are devouring live flesh because you you have a bottomless need to be filled with other people's pain you're watching a body horror movie if you turn into a wolf yeah you're watching a body horror movie yeah should i keep going sure yeah if an alien is born from your uh uterus horror movie. I mean, that's the number one. Yeah. If... But that... Is that one psychological? What do you mean? Alien?

Yeah. The film Alien? Yeah. Is it a psychological horror movie? No. Right. That's... You were saying...

But is it like representing trauma? Alien is born out of the chest. No. I mean, I know. Yeah. It's... Yeah. It's a chest burster.

Yeah. And a face hugger. Yeah. I'm going to give you 10 movies okay actually more than 10 I cheated a little bit okay

number 10 Altered States mm-hmm this is a Ken Russell movie written by Patty Chayefsky even though Patty Chayefsky somewhat disavowed Ken Russell's adaptation

of the movie it stars William Hurt as a scientist who goes into a like a deprivation chamber and experiences what one might experience on all kinds of hyper-attenuated drugs like LSD. Okay. And because of those experiences, he comes to believe that he is devolving into a kind of feral creature.

Okay. And a knight turns into like a kind of wolf creature. Okay. An animal, but also experiences the nine dimensions of the universe. Cool. Simply one of the craziest movies ever made. Huge fan of this movie. Great example of what happens when a very ambitious, wordy, talky script goes into the hands of a guy who's best served making visual chaos that's

number 10 number nine carl freund's the wolfman i was thinking about like the universal monster movies so you've got frankenstein could be considered body horror you've got the mummy you've got dracula of course you've got the wolfman you've got the invisible man and you've got the creature from the black lagoon. I think those are the big six. Okay. Do you think the Wolfman is the right choice for this particular strain, or would you take Frankenstein in this place? What are the circumstances of the Wolfman becoming the Wolfman? He gets bit by a wolf.

As opposed to being someone else's creation. Correct. So, it's really, do you fear nature, or do you fear other people? We know you fear nature or do you fear other people? We know you fear nature. I mean, a lot of the things that you are describing respectfully are boy problems. That's true. This is a very male genre. Well, but it's just because nature comes for us in other ways as I'm living every single day.

How do you mean? Well, honestly, pregnancy is fucking that is the biggest body horror of all as we know and like obviously like our the cinema has explored it ad nauseam but like you think it stacks up to my this shit is crazy it's I mean like I have my back pain I have like an actual parasite in me who I love very much, but like spend the first three to five months trying to kill me. Or not really, but like sucking all of my lifeblood away. He needed me to stay alive so that he could stay alive. But it like is essentially a parasite.

And then it's just taking up all my living space. Can't wait to pull him aside like 13 years from now and play him this episode. And then it's just taking up all my living space. Can't wait to pull him aside like 13 years from now and play him this episode. Listen, buddy, I love you. But like, I'm going to be very real with both of the young men in my life about. And then the way they get out of there. Yeah, it's wild. It's just fucking extraordinary.

Like, what are we doing? I was there once. That was wild. That was quite a time. Are you serious? So, and then. extraordinary like what are we doing i was there once that was wild that was quite a time serious so um and there is something beautiful about it it is horrifying i mean it's cool it's like it is it is at this point like pretty weird that there's just like a baby in there you know like i that there's magical magic or whatever an alien um no but I do. I feel like John Hurt most of the time at this point. It's just like something is about to burst out of me. And I can't sneeze without being like, oh, God, is it going to tear apart?

And this is the system they came up with? It's interesting that there are a lot of metaphorical versions of pregnancy in horror movies, especially because so many of these movies over the years have been made by men. There is one that I'll get to that is made by a man, but I think reflects some of what you're describing that I don't think you've seen. Number eight is Raw. I did mention Julia Ducarno and her very particular strain of psychotic body horror. This is her first film. It's about a girl who goes to college

and becomes maybe or maybe not a cannibal. Yeah, hell yeah. What's up, my guy? Let's watch Raw together. He's literally just like, hello. You called? Absolutely incredible movie. Very much worth your time.

Super funny movie about feeling displaced at college as well. Okay. Next on my list is george frangie's eyes without a face which is about um a plastic surgeon who wants to perform a face transplant on his daughter after she was disfigured in a car accident okay Would you ever do surgery on a loved one? No. Okay. What if you were a licensed surgeon?

Licensed? Am I a good surgeon? Is that like my calling? You're good at a lot of things. Well, I know, but like, you know, handiwork. You know, I don't know about my like mechanical skills. A little bit of a klutz. Yeah.

Not idea. Not sure. You know what? So I've been getting into some crafting with Knox and I honestly, like it's been better than expected. The bar was pretty low. Okay. But I am a little klutzy and I also don't know that I have the precision. I don't know that I would trust myself. I can say you will not be operating on me anytime soon. Number six, I have a trilogy of Frank Henenlotter movies. The movies are Basket Case, Frankenhooker, and Brain Damage. I'd like to tell you a quick story. Chris Ryan and I went to an all-night horror festival in October. It was put on by the American Cinematheque. Last October. Last October, yeah. Oh, that's right. Yeah, I remember this. It's one of the coolest movie nights of the year

for me i love a horror movie marathon sit down first movie i think was stewart gordon's dolls just a movie about killer dolls sure second film frankenhooker okay chris had never seen it let's just say even for cr who traverses in the awkward unknown. He does. He was like, is this really happening? Henenlotter makes like a very funny, very ridiculous version of horror movie that is very low budget, very gross, very funny. Basket Case is kind of his best known and biggest movie.

It's about a guy who is separated from his conjoined twin who is disfigured and lives in a basket and is a killer. His crazed split half. Frankenhooker is about a woman who dies in a terrible lawnmower accident. Okay. And is then reconstructed. Yeah. But she's reconstructed with a new sexual impulse that makes her crazy for sex and prostitution.

Super normal movie. Yeah. Brain Damage is about a guy who gets a brain worm in his head and the brain worm begins to become his sex and prostitution. Okay. Super normal movie. Yeah. Brain Damage is about a guy who gets a brain worm in his head and the brain worm begins to become his leader and best friend. I'm just, I'm letting it, RFK Jr.

I'm just letting it go right by. I'm not saying anything. Is there a Nuzzi-esque character in that movie? I'm not sure. Those movies are crazy. Speaking of crazy movies, this is probably the craziest movie. This is the movie I've seen brought up the most

when talking about the final 25 minutes of The Substance. And that movie is Society, which is a Brian Yuzna 80s horror movie. It's like very similar because it's so clearly a comedy in the way that I feel like The Substance is so clearly a comedy, even though they're both technically about the same thing. It's about a Beverly Hills teenager

who thinks his parents are part of a cult and he starts to like investigate and it's all about the social elite and rich people and how they're monsters and it's like super one note but also hilariously gross like the grossest fucking thing you'll ever see another true story i was wanted to prepare for this so i was trying to find a copy of the movie society which I don't own arrow put out an amazing blu-ray of it and I couldn't find it it was not available um on arrow's website it wasn't available on on amazon went to a store wasn't available I'm in the video store with my daughter yesterday we're having a day together and I'm letting her pick out anything she wants at the video store so she's she grabs well inside out too is prominently displayed of course. Because it's just come out.

So she's like, I need to see Inside Out 2 again. We go to the kids section. For whatever reason, she was like, I really need to see the Black Cauldron. Okay. The kind of like mid-period Disney movie. Okay, well, I mean, it's Halloween season. It is Halloween season. And you guys are starting early.

Yes, and she's loving Halloween. And then Thumbelina. She grabs Thumbelina. Oh, okay. And then Dad saw the Arrow Blu-ray in a glass case at the video store. Wow. So Society was there and I bought it. Yeah.

And so we bring the Blu-rays home and we're showing mom everything that we got. And the Society cover is like the grossest thing you'll ever see in your life. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Alice was like, I want to watch that. Yeah. So that's the end of my story. We're doing really well. But she wasn't grossed out by it.

No. She's like, that's dad's movie. Yeah, I have noticed that there is this thing. Knox doesn't know yet to be grossed out by like a lot of Halloween decorations and things that are supposed to be creepy and scary. Yes. And he's just like, what's that? These are things we put on them. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, maybe Alice is ready. Maybe it's just beautiful. Society is so gross. It's fantastic four is alien all time it's an incredible film yeah um you know i think you should watch it tonight alien again yeah i think you should check it out or and and double it with i do think that we did ridley sc Scott rankings the last time I was pregnant and I rewatched Alien like while pregnant. I think you did too. So I'm hardcore.

What can I say? You are hardcore. Number three is even more hardcore than that. It's Possession. Yeah. Directed by Andre Zalosky. It stars Isabelle Johnny and Sam Neill as a couple who are about a woman who asks for a divorce from her husband. And she seems to be exhibiting a kind of mania in the aftermath of this request that he can't totally understand.

Through the first hour, you would not think of this as a body horror movie. Then something happens in the movie that even by the standards of fucked up movies blows your mind. I won't say anything else. People haven't seen Possession. Number two is The Thing. John Carpenter's masterpiece. We were talking about it recently with Chris.

And then number one, I just put the David Cronenberg wing. Sure. These are the movies that are in the wing. The Fly, Scanners, Videodrome,

Dead Ringers, Existence, Shivers, Rabid, and The Brood. The Brood is the one Okay that is about

pregnancy of a kind Okay and about children and what it's like to be around small children all the time Oh yeah I mean because that is

the other half of the body horror right? Then this thing comes out that is you but not you Yes exactly and has like a tremendous like

physical biological power on you. Yes. But are also nightmares. I would highly recommend that movie to anybody. It's very, very strange. Cronenberg, his film just acquired by Janice Sideshow, The Shroud. So we'll be able to see it.

You heard Adam Neiman on the show last week raving about that great film. So I think I'm seeing it at the New York Film Festival. A couple of honorable mentions. Death Becomes Her. Have you seen that one? Of course. Come on.

Death Becomes Her would also be a great double feature with The Substance because it's pretty much in the same beat. Yeah. This is what rich people in Hollywood expect of their beautiful women. Reanimator. Wonderful movie. Brain Dead. Tetsuo.

Do you think Black Swan applies here? I was thinking of the fingernails and the toenails. I thought of Black Swan while watching this movie. Brain Dead? Tetsuo? Did you think Black Swan applies here? I was thinking of the fingernails and the toenails. I thought of Black Swan while watching this movie. It is also, you know, anything that's about girl problems, you know? There's another one here that I would venture to guess you haven't seen, but you should check out, which is called Ginger Snaps, which is a very culty horror movie came out in 2001 it's about two sisters who um the night that one of the sisters gets her period is savagely attacked by a creature oh and the whole movie is like a big metaphor yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean very fun beloved movie uh malignant. Cabin Fever.

My Beloved Demon Seed. Probably the most fucked up movie on this list. Okay. It's a movie about how an AI robot that builds itself rapes Julie Christie. Super chill movie. Yeah. Take that, John Mulaney. Here's my last question for you. Is Rosemary's Baby a body horror movie?

And if it is, shouldn't it be on the top ten? Well. Is it? I mean. It's as though the devil implanted his seed in you. I mean, that's horrifying. Right. And it's Mia Farrow's body.

That is true. You see that shot of her with like the scratches from the rough night with Cassavetes yeah yeah yeah but I mean yeah it's not classically defined in this way

yeah I don't know it seems I guess it is ultimately about the horrors that your body can produce

that's right the evil inside us I mean that's kind of like why I, you know, but, and a woman's body in particular, but I don't know. It's slightly more psychological then. So I think this is fine. Okay. I want to thank you for going to see The Substance. Sure. I had a nice time. Glad you liked it. Yeah. When's the next horror movie you think you'll watch? I don't know.

I've been in like a pretty good rhythm. Yeah, you've been very open-minded. So... Think about all the things this show has done for you. Yeah, it's so true. I'm so grateful. Fan cams, horror films. It's all going great.

I mean, what's the next, like... Terrifier 3, which Dan and I have been keeping in our prize stuff. Right, right, right. And I saw the trailer for it. The trailers before, hold on, let me see if I can remember. The trailers before

The Substance. The Substance were incredible. It was Smile 2, Anora, Megalopolis, and The Terrifier 3. We are eating. That is tremendous stuff.

I wish I was at that screening. You guys didn't tell me he's Santa. I love a Christmas movie. It's a Christmas movie. It's a Christmas movie. Creepy Santa, let's go. Yeah, didn't tell me he's Santa. I love a Christmas movie. It's a Christmas movie. It's a Christmas movie. Creepy Santa, let's go. Yeah, I'm sure it'll be just like It's a Wonderful Life.

Amanda, thank you. Let's go now to my conversation with Coralie Farja. Say hello to Tim Selects, Coralie Fargeat. Coralie, thanks for doing this. I was wondering, after seeing this movie, my first thought was, what was the first body horror movie Coralie ever saw? Do you remember the first time you saw something that could be defined that way? I think that would probably be The Fly from David Cronenberg, which I can remember. Or also I could say Robocop from Verhoeven, which has a bit of body horror in it when you think about it. It does. It's terrifying. How did it affect you? Were you really young when you saw those movies?

Yeah, basically they were the kind of movies that I wasn't allowed to watch at home because my mother thought they were too violent and, you know, would traumatize me. So basically, I was going to my grandfather's house and he showed them world with, you know, like crazy stuff that were taking place. And I felt part of, you know, took me out of reality, which is really what I loved when I was watching movies. I wanted to ask you about the development of your style, because now having seen Revenge and The Substance, you know, it's very distinct. The insert shots, the ability to work with prosthetics, the, you know, the cutting style, the music, the score from both of these films feel somewhat similar. Like you really have this distinct thing, but I don't know very much about the work that you were doing before the two features.

So like, how did you figure out what you wanted that filmmaking style to be? that I have since a long time with me and that I could really express, you know, in my first feature, Revenge, because I think that's really the first project that I, you know, handled from beginning to start, you know, starting to write and really putting my vision. Like, before that, you need to work with a lot of constraints. Like, you know, it's a short film. So, you know, you don't have a lot of money to do crazy stuff.

I was also growing up in France where, you know, like genre films are not very popular and you don't get funds, you know, to do them. So, you know, I had to work around that to do my first short films to find themes that I could relate to, but that would, you know, still not be a sci-fi or horror to start with because otherwise it wouldn't get made. Uh, but I, I found a way to still express myself in, in those, like for me, it's all about, I think from my first short film, The Telegram, which has very little dialogue and which is the same, building some kind of tension, some kind of visual suspense, and then build something together with the rhythm of image and sound. I think this is something that lives with me from a long time. That's really the way

I see things. I see the images, I see the sound, and I've really worked around that since the writing. And after, I understood that to be able to kind of try and have a first feature film project, which would really be in the genre that I loved, which was the non-realistic, you know, for me, genre goes from action to sci-fi to horror, everything that is not reality, you know, that takes you somewhere else and where you can create your own codes basically uh so i knew that i needed to make another short short film which would be closer to those universe so as to get funds for my first feature and that's where i i won a contest for a short film writing, you know, lab, which was like this time really based upon science, science fiction, you know, so they valued the kind of thing that usually I was rejected for. And I won the contest and I could do this, this short film called reality plus, which was very much grounded into a sci-fi universe. And it was at the same time that I was writing my first script for Revenge.

And here, I think that's really where I decided that I wanted to find a way to really do what I love and not like doing something that is close to like to be really to go for it but I but I knew I had to respect a few again a few rules to be able to have it done like to have a fine to have it financed because like if you write a hundred million dollars you know script for your first feature, like you shoot yourself a bullet in the, you know, in the foot. So I decided to kind of choose a setup that would be very simple, you know, with few characters, almost one location, even if there are many uh and basically where all the uh i would say what would make the difference

would would be the way it would be done the way you know it would be the story would be told which is not a very classical way with a lot of dialogues but you know uh use all the visuals and all the sounds to create really a cinematic experience, to create like everything that I've felt I could express through this. So that's, you know, how Revenge like came together. And I think that's really there that I was able to express like the way I wanted to craft my films. And it really started from the very beginning of the writing, which to me is start with researching images and sound. Basically, I start with that. I start with because I know that I don't write

a lot of dialogue and the language of my film are not through dialogues but they are through image and and experience so and I work a lot with symbolism so I I I research first which are going to be the strong symbolism that I are going to help me express my story. And the locations, whether they are outside locations or locations that we build, they are part of the characters. In fact, they are building the film as much as the characters. For instance, I knew that when I found the idea of the desert for revenge I found something that would be the DNA of the film that was going to build you know the movie

in a very specific way so I researched a lot of I listened a lot to musics when I write to I choose a lot of colors my scripts from the very beginning of the writing, they're visual. Like I write everything that I see, everything that I want the audience to feel, all the excess, all the obsession, all the craziness. I love to put them on the page. And also because I edit also myself, so I already know how it's going to impact the way I'm going to finalize the final scenes, which have to have all the elements like the rhythm, the sound, the visual. visual uh and sometimes like you know on set everything is shot in a different order because of the technical constraint for revenge i'm thinking about this final scene you know where the the turnaround the chase in that corridor and i have already in my mind all the different pieces

where it where it goes and how it's gonna increase to something like it's going to go crazier and crazier with a huge sound. And and basically, you know, that's that's where I found myself really. Like I know that, you know, when you are so specific and and and create something that is a bit different from, let's say, more classical classical movie people can be a bit lost at first because they don't know you know they don't know what it's going to be so you know like some people say she doesn't know what she does she does or you know like it's uh uh and and and you know exactly what you're doing uh but until all the pieces are together you know it's it can be hard you know for some people to kind of understand how it pieces are together, you know, it can be hard, you know, for some people

to kind of understand how it's going to get, you know, this and the importance of the close-ups, which together with the, you know, the sound and everything are going to create something special. I would remember always on Revenge, like, I remember someone saying because we were taking time to film an ant you know like this person was totally like thinking we were doing we were crazy like spending time filming an ant like and I think after when you see the film it's one of the shot that is so powerful and you know and and that builds to me what is as important as all the rest of the, of the scenes. Um, and then it's about really, uh, understanding the best way to organize this because, you know, the first feature is the tough one, like, you know, you

really, it's a kind of a war zone. Like you have to do it. You don't have a lot of money. So, you know, you do as best as you can. You have to navigate a lot of constraint of, you know, some crew that you couldn't choose or, you know, some constraint that you have schedule-wise and everything. But I really understood on that first feature film

that I had my own way of shooting and I needed my own tools and my own organization, which really gave me the efficiency that really getting the crew and my co-producer to understand that we were not going to shoot by the book you know but we were going to create our own book of the way that was the most efficient and the most creatively fruitful for the movie and that's how we ended up like really crafting a schedule that was very different of a regular film because like we had so you know many prosthetics so many close-ups that we ended up for instance what i couldn't do in the in the first one we ended up having like 30 days just of close-up shootings at the end of the principal photography which we called the lab and so basically when you're wrapped with the actors

like we continued shootings for 30 days like with just 10 people in a little sound stage with pieces of floor fake arms uh you know like all the inserts on the food or on the injection or the prosthetic so that nobody would, could do the same thing for the ants that criticize that we are, you know, kind of losing time while the whole crew is waiting, shooting, shooting an ant. And I knew I need, I wanted to preserve what makes the reality of the film, like have everything the most we could shot for real, you know, with real prosthetic,

with like no green screen for the view on Los Angeles, but the traditional, you know, printed backdrop that is, you know, the kind of timeless cinema trick that, that, that we use to me,

like the, the making of the film is like is really like uh so important is what's going to transmit to the audience because i think that all those decisions all the fact that the soul of all the people who work on it you know and that put their heart and their guts you know in it this kind of transmit to the audience at some point and creates the energy of the film as well, for sure. I wanted to ask you about something you mentioned earlier, which is that in France, genre films are not a big thing. They don't typically perform harder to get financed. Is that specifically what led you to making um you know your first film

has a lot of english and this film is entirely in english you know if things were different in france would you be making films in france because this feels like a very american story that you've told with the substance it's true i i all my reference of film uh that influenced me like as a filmmaker where more English speaking, you know, references for the first one, I would have probably done it in, in French because it's easier to get funds, you know,

like when you're in the country where you live and everything, but instinctively my, also my way of expressing myself in, in the films, I want to tell universal stories. I want to kind of, you know, speak to everyone. To me, the story could happen everywhere. And Hollywood is like the most heightened symbol of how this story, unfortunately, I is is true everywhere and so naturally it's true that the the dialogues and the and the conception of the film from the start now come to me in english

but also because i i i i also want the film to have the most international resonance possible, you know, to, to travel and to be seen and to resonate. Uh, um, and that also, I think, yeah, the, the, the, the language that, that naturally comes, uh, more natural, you know, when I, when I write also, because when I think about actors, you know, even if like always it's never those actors who will be in the film. But I work with my own imagination that would build from everything I watch. And I think, yes, those were the kind of movie I was watching. So I think it shaped also my way of, you know, crafting my own stories. And now, having done this one that is fully in

English, I kind of, yes, that's a stone that I loved it. I, you know, I was like, also because like, I love to have access, you know, to great cast. We also have, of course, great cast we also have of course great cast in france but the cultural i think uh uh difference is that i think yeah french cast is less used to to do those kind of films so it also feels less natural for them to perform that you know it's really a cultural difference that is quite strong even if we see now more you know kind of innovative proposition in in those genre it's still something um uh where i think in french uh cinema culture we are more introvert we're more you know cerebral we're more uh um and there is not this let go and excessiveness you know craz, craziness that we're used to, okay, to kind of let express.

So I don't say that I won't do films in French, like because I, you know, you never know how the future is going to be. But I was really happy at that place for this one. Well, you mentioned that American actors are more comfortable working in genre, but I watch a lot of horror movies and a lot of genre. I love genre films. And your film is extremely bold, even by the standards of genre storytelling. And getting actors as well known as Demi moore and margaret quali to participate in something like this is is unusual you know and obviously you've gotten a lot of attention and notoriety for it and their for their performances but what do you say to actors when you sit down with them and talk about the script that they've read and say like here's how i'm

going to make it happen or if you've seen the last 10 minutes of revenge imagine that but for two and a half hours you know that that level of extremity that you pursue, like, what are those conversations like? I write everything in the script. Like I write the craziness in it. I write all the sound, all the kind of boldness. It is there. Like everything is already on the page in the way it's going to be crafted. But of course, like it's something to read it on the page and it's a different thing to do it and then to see it with the finished result. But I think for both of them, reading the script was the thing that hooked them, like that they understood that, OK, it's going to be a story that is very different,

that is very bold, that is very unusual. And I think they both reacted strongly to that. Especially having seen my first feature, I think it also helps kind of envisioning what you read and what it could be with me directing it. And then when we meet, for me, the most essential, I think even more with Demi, like who comes, you know, because I knew that the filmmaking was going to be like, you know, a super important part of the DNA of the film. And also for her to have to work with that because it's a major technical constraint that you have to work with as an actor to have around your performance. And that is also building your performance in a way that she may not have been using in the other films that she made.

So I really took a lot of time to, because I really wanted her to be sure that she would be ready to take all the risks that the film was going to request uh so i took a lot of time like sharing with her visuals explaining her all the scenes how it was going to get together the importance of the sounds of you know how i was going to shoot it um the extremity of it uh all the nudity of course you know since we discussed a lot in advance about how i wanted to do them why i wanted to do them like that's the meaning you know of

each each shot sorry uh and also very importantly i think it's an important part of the conversation like the the scale of our production which was not a huge hollywood production it was a french crew more in an indie setup in france with not the usual you know hollywood huge machine and i needed her also to feel at ease that it was going to be the rules of the film that we would do everything we can of course to you know uh make them comfortable but we we couldn't have all the big stuff that they were probably used to in more in bigger production because i think it's it's it's super important like to go to feel at ease as well with the entourage of the film and to know the scale of it and the rules that are going to be the constraint of the making of it. And I think that's how it really made it

possible to go through all the shooting with its ups, its downs, the long downs, it's the long schedule with the trust still being there. Because even, you know, when there were tough moments, even where, you know, it's shooting, it can be difficult sometimes and it's not always like easy. And so, you know, there were stressful moments, tiring moments, but the trust was always there because everything had been discussed before and we were all willing to jump into into this um and i and i think that for them at some point they understood that it was a matter of trust like they understood that the the the the the film was gonna embody a very strong vision that they're going to put their performance

at the service of the film and they had to trust what I was going to do with it. Because also a lot of it would be around the performance, linked to sound, linked to edits and everything. They had a strong instinct that if it was done successfully, it could be something very, very powerful. But that process ahead to discuss all this and to really say, this is what it is, you will have to play by those rules.

Are you really willing to do it with me? I think it's the most important conversation that you need to have in advance. So you all want to make the same movie. I mean, both of their performances are amazing. I think particularly what Timmy Moore is willing to do is so fascinating and I guess brave. I guess brave. Brave seems like a stupid word to use about making a movie, but it does feel that way. The reaction of the film has been interesting

to me. Obviously, you've been widely acclaimed and it feels like this is a very big and important movie, but also there has been some negative reaction to some people saying, well, this is actually by representing some of these ideas that film is taking away from what its intention is. I'm wondering like how you think about the origins of the idea to tell this story in the way that you have and maybe how it's being received kind of in both directions. Yeah.

So, so it's very interesting because to me, there is not one good way of being feminists. I think there is your way. And I think each way is valid, you know, and each way has, you know, should have a voice. And obviously, I can do with me, you know, I can do with who I am, with the way I want to address those issues. And it's true that my way to do that is to show and represent and symbolize

the reality of what I feel for that. The reality of the violence, the reality of the grossness, the reality of the misogynistic world and setup that I still feel very much around everywhere. Um, and this is my way of addressing it. It's like, okay, look at it, take that, look at it. Don't say like, we're fine. We're not. Uh, um, and it's, and it's really by putting it like in a very, yes, excessive manner, kind of satire manner for sure for me of,

yes, this is what like basically society has been doing, like putting naked women, putting them on the stage and dance with feathers and how this is, you know, to me represents such, you know, a powerful image, very simple. That's how our society has been built since almost 3000 years. So my way of, you know, being a feminist and kind of wanting to put those issues in the world is like not by showing something that doesn't exist yet that I wish would exist but I want to kind of shout out the reality and the violence of what I have kept inside and I have lived inside all my life you know I build myself being a from a little girl

about you know having to deal with all that with all those looks with feeling that oh yeah if I show my ass I'm gonna be valued and you know if I if you're sexy you're gonna be the center of attention if you're you know and and I think every woman has to constantly live with this kind of endless questioning, how I'm going to be seen, how I'm going to be judged, how, you know, am I sexy enough, not too sexy enough, what am I allowed to say, how am I allowed, you know, to react, all those injunctions that you hear every day. For instance, to me, one of the most powerful one is like pretty girls should

always smile you know like this one only to me says it all like you know uh um and it's such a violent thing that i'm making fun of but to me which is very profound about how you're constantly requested to behave or act or present yourself in a certain way, depending on your gender, depending on your appearance and everything. And I really wanted to express that in a heightened, violent, kind of over-the-top way of how me, I feel with that and how I see it around me. And, you know, that was also the idea in Revenge, like to show the reality, yes, of what is usually asked for us to hide, to kind of smile and not say our, you know, um, so in that matter, you know, in that, that regard, I think, uh, uh, uh, uh, the movie of course needs to be discussed, you know, needs to be kind of, uh, uh, uh, analyzed in its, all these

deeper layers because those issues are complex, you know, they are not totally black and white. We are led to have like, we are led sometimes to do things that we don't want to do, but we think we have to do. So it's, you know, it's a very complex issue. But my way of being faithful to what I want to say is to just express how intense and how everywhere and how, uh, uh,

extreme this has been for me and the reality of what I witness and what I, what I see. And so it's like, take it in your face. Yes, this is like that. Uh, and hopefully, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna change. Um, but my way as who I am to kind of set my stone in, in the world, um, is, is, uh, is, is, is this one. And, and, you know, and, and, uh, I don't think this is the, the only way that is, that is valid, but this is,. So I can't do differently, I would say. I really like how you have made something that is so sincere and meaningful, but presented it with so much humor and also grossness. It is profoundly gross in a way that I found impressive. So I really appreciate it. We end every episode of the show, Coralie, by asking filmmakers, what is the last great thing that they have seen?

It seems like you're a cinephile. Have you seen anything good recently? Wow. So that's a tough one because the worst part of making your movie is that you don't get time to go to the cinema anymore. I've heard this before. That's super frustrating

because you see so many interesting stuff you want to go and like, you're kind of missing everything, but let me just give it a think. Um, recently, what did I see? Uh, wow. Um, I mean, one of the movie that I remember that I, that I saw in Cannes, uh, was the apprentice, uh, from, uh, which I really, which I really loved.

Um, and yeah, I was happy to discover this one because, uh, yeah, it was very provocative as well. And I love the gesture of, of cinema.

And I saw the performance of Sebastian Stan was amazing. So yeah, that was one of the great things I can remember that I discovered recently when I watched a few films in Cannes. That's a great recommendation. Coralie, thanks so much for doing the show. Congrats on The Substance. Thank you so much.

Thanks to Coralie. thanks to Jack Sanders, thanks to Amanda, thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode. Later this week on the show, Amanda and I will dig into Wolf's, the new George Clooney and Brad Pitt movie. Yeah. You've seen it? No, I have a date tomorrow with myself. Oh, I'm very excited for you. And some appetizers. Okay, well we'll see you then.