The Big Picture - Why ‘Sicario’ Needed a Sequel, With Stefano Sollima | The Big Picture (Ep. 73)

Episode Date: June 29, 2018

The Ringer’s Sean Fennessey and Chris Ryan discuss the unlikely 'Sicario' franchise and its approach to violence and morality along the U.S.-Mexico border with ‘Sicario: Day of the Soldado’ director Stefano Sollima. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I want to sit in a movie theater. I don't want to have a director or a writer that brings my hands and explains to me what I have to feel. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer, and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most interesting filmmakers in the world

and also my colleague and friend Chris Ryan, a.k.a. the one true soldado, and we are here today to talk about Sicario Day of the Soldado. Chris, you and I just interviewed Stefano Solema, the director of the new film, but before we talk to him, we're going to talk to you about why Sicario is good. Why is Sicario good, Chris? So, do you

want to talk about why the franchise is good? Because now it is the most unexpected possibly the most unexpected franchise we have on our hands in the last five years. I mean, I think listeners of your podcast, The Watch, know that you're very emotional and excited about this. The original movie, Denis Villeneuve's 2015 original.

What did you think when they announced the idea of doing a sequel to that movie? I thought somebody was having a laugh. I thought somebody was playing a practical joke on me. That being said, when you watch Sicario, the original Sicario film, the characters of Matt and Alejandro, the Josh Brolin and Benicio Del Toro characters, they're used as these mysterious figures that are half obscured narratively, half obscured by shadow. You don't quite know anything

about the Josh Brolin character, Matt, this Department of Defense contract. And then Alejandro, you really only get the broad outlines of a revenge story. He was a lawyer in Mexico. His family was killed by a cartel.

Ever since then, he has been on a mission to destroy them by any means necessary. That worked very well for that film because it didn't require a lot of explanation. It was so focused on Emily Blunt's Kate character and her path. This film makes a very good case for foregrounding those characters because it shows a kind of depth of the world, if not a depth of feeling. And I think that that's ultimately going to be the thing that turns people on or off to this film. Yeah, we talked to Stefano about that a little bit and what the absence of an Emily Blunt character means for a story like this. Did you remember walking out of the first film

and thinking like, I want to know where Matt Graver's going next? No, but here's the thing that's important to remember is that they could not have gone back and done the same movie again. Because part of Sicario's appeal was it's sort of out of nowhereness. I don't think that there was a lot of clamoring for a movie like that. And its first weekend box office

suggested that people were right. It was a rare slow burn. I think it wound up making 85 domestically, but really lived on as a movie that, you know, obviously we talked about on our podcast a lot. You'd see memes of it. People obviously were watching this movie over and over again. It is a dark, a darkly rewatchable film. So it had that long tail. And I think that it just happened to correspond with the ascendance of Josh Brolin and Benicio del Toro having these late career renaissances that made it a really viable thing to do. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Villeneuve was at an inflection point in his career. I think he had made Ensendis, he had made Enemy, he had made a lot of well-liked art movies,

but wasn't yet the director of Arrival and Blade Runner 2049. And he used it as kind of a springboard, I'd say. Stefano is somebody who I was really not familiar with before this was announced. You were, though, because you were a big fan of the TV series Gamora, which he was essentially the lensman for the whole show. What did you know about Salama going into this? He seemed particularly, when he was announced as the director of Soldado,

I immediately took my interest out of sort of, oh, this is going to be hilarious to see them try to make a sequel to Sicario, to, oh, they're not playing around. They went out and got a filmmaker who is very well versed in being up close and personal with the criminal underworld. Now, as you can hear me talking about this, I feel my heart racing. I feel like my voice modulating and getting excited. And I think that this is going to be the main, and it has already with the reviews, but what I really want to talk about with you is how your reaction to day of the soldado, what it says about you, you know, as a person and as a moviegoer, because Soloma definitely tapped into a vein of film going that is unfashionable, I think, today. And frankly, is not something I'm super

comfortable being like, that's a dope movie. Like, I definitely thought Day of Soldado was phenomenal. I thought it was a fantastic movie. But it is a weird movie to put in like your Facebook likes. Yes, that's a very interesting way of framing it. I felt similarly. As I was watching the movie, I couldn't help thinking about the discourse about the movie that was coming for it despite the fact that as filmmaking and even as storytelling

in a lot of ways I think it's really effective really well done Solomon's really talented and he sharply identifies the fact that he's in the same sort of continuum

of Villeneuve without necessarily ripping off or aping or even duplicating any of his stuff and it's a continuum that I think you and I probably were raised by.

Frankenheimer, Walter Hill, John McTiernan, Sam Peckinpah, a very masculine, a very gritty, a very, you know, in love with these sort of violent legends of the criminal underworld of the American West that they make these films about. White knuckle genre movies, mostly targeting male audiences, honestly, mostly starring men. I mean, that was an interesting differentiator that the original film had, which was completely through that Emily Blunt purview. And we don't have that here. There is a young woman who stars in this film. She's a daughter of a cartel leader.

But unlike Emily Blunt's Kate character is under no illusions about where she is in the world and what's going on. And she's as savage as any other character in the movie, despite going through some pretty traumatic stuff. I certainly feel fine saying that I liked the movie. I do worry specifically given where we're at as a country and our relationship to the border and the conversation on immigration, what people will do and how they'll use this movie to either desecrate it or desecrate some sort of political conversation. I think it's easy for me to see it in that continuum of stories that you're talking about, that this has more in common with point blank and convoy than it does what's on CNN tonight. And that to me is meaningful, but that's not necessarily

always the state of cultural dialogue in 2018. We can't always separate those two things. Do you have any personal misgivings about putting a line between the two? What I liked about this movie is that it challenged me on my semantics. So it challenged me on the way I would use, the words I would use to describe an action set piece, the way I would use, the words I would use to describe the moral compass if there is one of the film itself because I don't think it's sufficient to just say that was exhilarating or horrifying you know and that you might put horrifying is the first 40 minutes of Saving Private Ryan but exhilarating might be a Jason Bourne car chase or something like that or

even a Fast and Furious scene that you happen to like or a Die Hard scene you happen to like, something that's a little bit more cartoonish. And then horrifying is like Black Hawk Down, Saving Private Ryan, something that's about the horrors of what happens to people who are engaged in violence. I don't think that that is a sufficient way to describe this movie. The action scenes are in the top one percentile

of how good you can shoot something like this. I don't know that you walk away. I defy anybody. And I watched the premiere of it last night. Nobody was fist pumping. Nobody was like, yeah, get them. It was, it takes your breath away in a way in which you have to have a real, like sit down and gather yourself after these set pieces and the set pieces in this film come one after another after another it's unrelenting I just felt myself at a loss of words to describe how I felt about it and I felt like that in and of itself was an accomplishment I think that says a lot I mean we should probably let Stefano say the rest of it I found it interesting that he was

such a charming and nice person given the grave nature of his film and his TV shows. Anything else you want to note about Sicario before we go? I'll be very curious to see how it does commercially, because I would be curious. They certainly set up a third film, and I would be curious to see whether this is, in fact, Taylor Sheridan's Border Trilogy and how that works itself out. And I'm fascinated to see what people think of it, given the state of the Mexican border right now in this country. You might have identified your directorial debut, Chris. Sicario 3, day of the process.

Chris Ryan, thanks again, buddy. Let's get right to our, but Stefano Solima. Stefano, thank you for coming in. Congratulations on Sicario Day of the Soldado. How'd you get caught up in the world of Sicario? First, I was a big fan of the first. I thought it was the best movie I've watched that year. And I love this kind of movie, this genre of movie. And then I was working

along with Molly Smith, developing another project written by James C. Roy. James Elroy, the great. Yeah. It was amazing. You really have a type. A crime type. Yeah. This is what I love.

And then they spoke to me about this idea of this saga they had in mind. And then of course I was a bit resistant let's say in the beginning I feel that Sicario is not exactly a film that you expect a sequel from but they

explained me that the idea was to create a strange kind of saga around the same world by using some of the characters. But they asked me to make a standalone movie. And this makes, of course, everything a little bit more complex and more interesting. And then I read the script by Taylor Sheridan.

It was really amazing. And most of all, it was really close to everything I've done. So it was really close to the kind of movie I like to watch and then, of course, I like to do. Did you have a sense that this movie was going to happen whether you were a part of it or not? Or did they want specifically for you to do this because of the experience that you had? Because, you know, the TV work that you've done and the film that you've made,

like, it really is in concert with a lot of the stuff that you've done before. Yeah, I think they were really smart because I pitched my version of the movie. What's really close, I mean, Sicario, it's a film that I like because it's a kind of movie I can do. You know what I mean? And then, Sicario, it's a film that I like because it's a kind of movie I can do. You know what I mean?

And then, of course, Denis has a completely different style. But let's say that we are exactly in the same world, in the same mood. Every director has his own specificity, his own, we are like a fingerprint. So it's stupid just the idea to try to copy another one. So I think that was a smart idea from the producer to find me. And for me, I was a rep by CIA for, now it's five years. And then they gave to me an incredible amount of script to read I was trying to find a project where because I had to be sure not to lose my specificity and my touch and then I think that in soldado is was a perfect

example of a kind of movie that we don't produce anymore, where you have this really gritty, brutal approach to the storytelling without being too gentle. So I think I was more than honored to be part of it. Do you remember for you when you sort of started to become interested in the underworld? Because a lot of your work before Soldato deals with the criminal underworld in Italy. And obviously Soldato takes place in this world that most Americans, most people, they know it's there. But they don't know how exactly the things that they're seeing on their television screens, how that happens when they watch the news. And the news comes up several times in Soldado.

That's how people are interfacing with this. But for you, growing up, when did you first become interested in the criminal underworld? From the beginning, because I sincerely and truly love a genre movie. So, because I like to be entertained, but at the same time, I think that a movie has to reflect your time

and the world that is around you. So I think that it's playing with the gangster's movie, the cop's movie, helps you in making this, in creating an entertaining movie, but also with some topical issue as the background. And this is what I did from the beginning. I think it's an interesting way to explore your own society. By doing with something that is not a direct take on it, but is translated through

an entertaining story. Soldato is more relevant than I assume even you could have imagined right now given the climate and the world. How much are you and Taylor when you're starting out making the film talking about kind of the real world implications of something like that and then also what you're trying to do when you're making a genre movie

and you know there's a difference between those two things you want it to feel accurate but it doesn't have to necessarily be real or maybe vice versa. No, I think you have to be accurate and real in portraying the world. I mean, because it's the only reason why the audience trusts you. Because you need to be really precise and accurate. They need to feel that what you're talking about, it's not just a movie. It's a movie. So a fictional story, but based on the reality.

In order to do this, I normally do an incredible amount of research. What does that look like? You go there and you try to speak with them, to try to live a little bit there, try to understand what's the real life in the border, in the case of Soldado. So I did, I've been there and then I crossed the border. I tried to speak with people, border patrol agent and the people that smuggle with the immigrants, and also just normal people that live in this crazy cohabitation with this incredible clandestine flux of people.

I was curious about what it was like to work with Benicio and Josh on this movie, because there were two characters people responded to very strongly in the first film. And they've spoken in the press run coming up into Sicario about their involvement in the script and their involvement in working with you and working with Taylor to shape the story. Can you tell us a little bit about the day-to-day experience of working with actors like that, especially two actors who are so hands-on with the script, so hands-on with how they develop their characters. Let's say this, when I jumped up in the project and we started talking, it was clear they already played the character. So it was like, okay, let's see what we can do together. But since the script is really smart, even though they already know their characters,

they are facing in Soldado so many difficulties. They have so many forks in front of them. That was really a deeper and interesting exploration. And then so was in the beginning was, okay, now we know who we was in the previous one. Even though in the previous one, you get a sense of the two characters because you always sees them but through the eyes of Emily Blunt and Emily Blunt was judging them so it was a sort of moral compass in the story and then of course here and it's good we don't have any why is it good it's good, we don't have any. Why is it good? It's good because I don't feel that you need more a compass.

I mean, in telling a story, the audience is much smarter than this. I mean, I don't want, I want to sit in a movie theater. I don't want to be, to have a director or a writer that bring my hands and explain to me what I have to feel. I'm going to feel it anyway. It feels like, in some ways, a more honest representation of some of the intensity and horrible things that happen in these situations to not be put in a situation

where we feel like we have somebody who's guiding us, the way you say. But was there any concern about maybe a lack of empathy going on? Because there is just a lot of terror. It's very violent. It is very real. And so if you don't have something to lean on,

is it okay? Will audiences feel safe? Do you think about that? Yeah, I think this is by experience because I already did it many times at this point. And this is not true. Because, I mean, of course you are going to be guided for definition

because the director and the writer, we decide what you're going to watch and what you're going to experience. But at the same time, I don't want to never to judge a character. This is my personal approach. I just I try to love them all. And then, of course, you're going to have your own idea about, but it's not necessary to impose to you mine. This is the point. So I think that in Soldado, this was really interesting because you're going to have your own opinion on everything.

But even if, let's say, I had to step back, you still feel something, for example, for Alejandro. Definitely. He has a really moving arch. Do you think it was helpful to be not American and not Mexican and to approach this story? Do you think there was a benefit to that? Probably, yes. You are less worried of the consequences of what you are doing. But, yeah, a bit.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that Denis is not American. So, I mean, of course, that way probably you have a sort of detached point of view that helps you in telling a story, honestly. Yeah, that's definitely how I feel. There's two incredible set pieces at the beginning of the movie. One with sort of the coyote and then the other in Kansas City in the shopping center. Can you talk a little bit about building those scenes and then the tension that goes into them and then also the kind of horrifying violence

that you have baked in there? I mean, those are really effective, powerful, visceral moments. Like as a filmmaker, what do you do to make sure that those scenes work? In the first one, in the border sequence with the helicopter powerful, visceral moments? Like as a filmmaker, what do you do to make sure that those scenes work? In the first one,

in the border sequence with the helicopter was to try to adopt a sort of neutral point of view, but more from the side of the border patrol. So meaning this is another day and then we have a lot of immigrants try to get in but suddenly something happened so the first one was more based on the routine and the surprise at the end of course by knowing what is going on now, so that you have a kamikaze. The second is played on tension. Because, you know, you already know something bad is going to happen.

And so the idea there was to play the opposite by having, again, a neutral point of view, just to show, like in news footage, by shooting it just through a long, long, long tracking shot without never stopping. Yeah, the whole setup of that sequence is amazing. Where the film sort of starts off as a domestic war film, I noticed that about midway through when Angel shows up,

it becomes a little bit of a Western. And there's a rich tradition of Italian filmmakers and their interaction with the Western genre. I assume you grew up as a Leon fan. Can you tell me about the thrill it must have been to make a mini WesternWestern inside of Soldado? But I did, you know what, while I was shooting in the desert,

suddenly I slightly changed the way I usually shoot. And I was, I said, why I'm doing this? I mean, the format is the same, the cameras, I mean, why I'm doing this? I mean, the format is the same, the cameras. I mean, it's crazy. And then I understand that was first the horizontal line that changed everything in the storytelling. It seems strange, but it's real. I mean, it's changed. And then probably also the reminiscence of the Western. So I slightly changed from my style,

and the movie, in a way, changed style and becomes a bit more Western. Yeah. And then also, I feel, we can do spoiler here. Sure, yeah. It's when Ben resurrects. I mean, it seems an old 70s Western. Yeah. Where you have

this moment of how do you say when you crucify someone? Crucifixion. Yeah, in the Western they always three quarters of the movie they are completely beat up

almost dying. And Unforgiven was the same. Yeah, I expected Clint Eastwood to be in that bag. It's right, but I discovered it while I was shooting. I was a bit confused at the beginning. I said, why are you shooting that way? When you say when you're shooting that way, do you mean just what's in the frame or the way you're approaching it on the set?

It's like, normally I can also use an handheld camera. And so I try to be always close to the actor, but at the same time, really wide to put them in a context. And in Soldado, I start shooting with the camera absolutely steady, doing not being really close to the actor and giving a lot of space around. I was a bit surprised. I said, why am I shooting that way and trying to have a long shot without too many cuts?

Okay, guys, we're going to take a quick break from our conversation with Stefano. We'll be back right after this from a word from our sponsors. Support for today's show comes from Robite, the iOS and Android app that lets you control your Roku player on Roku TV. Robite does way more than a standard remote control. Just search for Robite, that's R-O-B-Y-T-E, in your app store.

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You know, you're a relatively new commodity, I think, to most American moviegoers. People are probably interested to know, like, who else do you look up to? You know, Chris mentioned Leon. Like, who were the big filmmakers for you growing up? My father was a director, so I grew up by watching, let's say,

one, two movies a day on my life. Sounds great. I think it's... Let's say that I have an incredible amount of directors, but they change every five minutes, meaning that they are a lot. So I don't feel that I have one that is really my inspiration. I think that they have a lot of them. And then everything that you, I mean, as a creative guy, I mean, everything you watch, everything you listen, the music, the art, and photo,

everything is going to be part of your imagination. So I think you don't, it's, I don't have just one or two. I have a million of them. Was there anything that you were watching that you asked the people who worked on the film to watch as a reference for Soldato? I never do this. No, okay.

No, and then also I feel really crazy when you go somewhere and pitch your movie by using as a reference other movies. It's strange. It's really... I love movies and I feel it's just a cheap guidance to something. So I think what we did as a research, I show the production designer, Kevin Cavanaugh, and Dario Swolsky, an incredible amount of photo taken from real life.

And for example, the idea of the hood, because originally it was a written duffel bag. And then I show them a photo, a real photo, really disturbing, where they used the T-shirt. Put it over the head. Yeah, with the tape on. And then I felt that this was really a scary image. So, I mean, instead of using a reference of other movie, I mean, I always go back to the reality. I think it's more interesting than you do, your process.

And for experience, I feel that sometimes reality is much more fresh, smart, and unpredictable than the fiction. Is making a movie like this fun? Because it's a very grim story, and it's very gripping, but it's very serious. Is it actually fun to do a movie like this? Yeah, it just depends on the environment you create around you. So what do you do? What are your sets like? First, I asked the producer to replace all the crew from the previous, because I didn't want to have someone on set to say, oh, we did this, so why don't we?

Oh, yeah. And he doesn't like this. Yeah. I said, it's okay. Let's start from the beginning. We want to do a standalone movie. Let's do it. I did a lot of interview with super talented people from the crew. And then I choose the more nice, of course, talented, but also more as human being nice.

Interesting. So no tough bastards. Yeah, because I think it's too complex a process not to be in a nice, warm environment. Because it's going to be a long journey, and then you want to have nice people around you. And so I think that the environment in Soldado was pretty nice. That's good. That's kind of ironic. Yeah. What was the most challenging part of doing this? Was there a particularly difficult scene or sequence? No, a lot. A lot.

A lot of different... The convoy sequence was a monster sequence to shoot. The Humvee one or the Mexico City one? Yeah, the Humvee. Because, of course, since I don't like action for action, seems strange, but itia okay because of course since I don't like action for action

seems strange but it's true I mean I don't like when you watch a movie where it's just boom boom boom boom everything explodes it's a car chase

I like when the action gives you an information on characters so I always try to put my characters in the center of the action.

And the convoy sequence was super complex because as it was written it was a huge convoy attacked by the people and then with a lot of characters involved and a lot of moving parts.

I decided to choose just one point of view, that of course it's a bit risky because while you're shooting a complex action sequence for real, so practically, without visual effects, of course you want to be covered in the editing room. You want to have several shots of everything. By adopting the point of view of Isabella, by being with Isabella during this crazy shootout,

of course you limited a lot your option. And so we built, along with Darius Wolski, a strange kind of... Because we were inside the MV, but being able to turn the camera almost 300 degrees. Inside the MV. Inside the degrees. And so we...

Darius is your DP. Yeah, Darius Wolski. And then we, and this was really complex because you have to synchronize the camera, the actor inside, and an incredible shootout outside where you have big explosion, people falling down. I mean, it was complex. And then, of course, it's something that you are not covered, meaning that it's a one shot. You have to do it one.

So we did an incredible amount of rehearsal. But it's really cool. How many takes? Oh, no, a few. Yeah. One, two. Because when it's like this, you have to do, I don't know, 20, 25 rehearsal. And then when you shoot here, it's just one or two.

Got it, you're right. How much do you and Taylor collaborate when you're making the movie? Because Taylor's had a lot of success as a screenwriter the last few years. He's become a little bit of a brand name. Are you guys talking while you're making the film a lot? A lot. I think I read the first draft, and then we get to the seven or eight together and then mostly i mean what we did together was uh to trim a little bit because before was uh really spread out much more than

it is now because was a lot of other uh small stories and the story of the little guy was expanded and then was different ending. So we worked together and then we trimmed a little bit in order to keep the soul but by reducing the material. And then what I asked him, this was my first speech, is why don't we put them one against the other? Because in the beginning of the first draft, they were together. And then at the end, Matt is flying to save him. And I introduced this.

I think that was more interesting and it gives more opportunity to explore and to go deeper in the exploration of the two characters. So to putting them one against the other. So to have the call, the phone call where he says, no, I cannot do it.

Right. What did you make of working on an American production? Was it different at all than what you'd done in the past? Not really. This is my second foreign language project, because the first one is Gomorrah, because this one was in Napoleon. So it was...

Totally different, yeah. Yeah, but it was more or less the same. I mean, it's a different world where they speak a different language. So, no, I don't think it was a big transition. As I told you, the only thing I was worried was to, since I know that here it's much more complex to get a movie financed, so you have a lot of people involved. I was just worried to lose my soul in the transition. This is something that I was really worried. Is that why you waited as long as you did

to make an American production? Because you were just concerned about the right situation? Absolutely. And you're going to do more now? No, this is exactly what I'm going to do from here on. Just all Sicario movies? No, no is exactly what I'm going to do from here on. Just all Sicario movies? No, no, no. I don't think I will never do a third one.

I think it's too beautiful the idea and too smart the idea of creating a saga where you have completely different but still in the same area directors. Filmmakers, yeah. different but still in the same area, directors filmmakers yeah playing with the saga that is much more interesting to watch this as a movie goers I'm speaking than to watch again myself doing another chapter

I already did it what can you tell us about the series that you're working on right now? Zero, Zero, Zero. It's based on the latest Roberto Saviano book. Roberto Saviano is the same author of Gomorrah. But let's say that Zero, Zero, Zero was an expose, was a journalistic book on drugs trafficking.

And then what we did was to create a completely different story, but based on the soul of the book. And the soul is a sort of gritty, compelling take on globalization by using one of the most controversial goods, merchandise in the market that is cocaine. So by following a single huge shipment of cocaine from Mexico to Italy, it's like we cross all over the world and we see how this economy of the trafficking that comes from where probably the real economy will never survive without all the money that comes from the drug trafficking. Fascinating. You prefer television or film?

What's your... I mean, I did both. And then it's just different. It's just different the time that you have at your disposal. I like movies when you have the right story that could be told in two hours. And sometimes in TV, you can be a little bit more free, especially if you work with cable or like when 000 is going to be produced by Amazon. It's produced by Amazon Studio Canal and Sky. So let's say that we have an incredible creativity freedom.

But I love both and then normally I do one and one one and one one movie so what is so you did zero zero zero

what would be the next film then my next project is to take a vacation but I'm developing My next project is to take a vacation. But I'm developing Call of Duty, the script, and Cult. Cult is a Western based on the latest treatment Sergio Leone wrote before dying.

Really? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's pretty exciting it's really cool that's a huge it's a huge legacy to have in your hands too yeah

well speaking of legacy we end every show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen so Stefano what's the last great thing that you have seen

Sicario Day of the Soldado you can't say that you can't anything else yeah three billboards what did you like

about that amazing I like how he write yeah and then I and also I like the

journey he he he pushes character in I mean it's

it's really always real and unpredictable and And I loved it in Bruges too. He's an amazing writer. One of our favorites. Stefano, thank you so much for doing this today. Thanks, you too. Thank you again so much for listening to this week's episode of The Big Picture. If you'd like to hear more about Sicario, may I direct you to TheRinger.com,

where Shea Serrano and Adam Neiman and a host of others are writing about the movie. Quite a complex movie it is. And then next week, a couple of podcasts for you to keep an eye out for. One, The Rewatchables, a July 4th extravaganza. Me, Chris Ryan, Bill Simmons, the podfather. We're going to need a bigger boat. It's Jaws. Jaws is coming. I don't think Chris or I or Bill have ever been more excited for a podcast. So look out for that. And then after the holiday, I'm going to be having a conversation with Peyton Reed, the director of Ant-Man and the Wasp, Marvel's latest entry in their ever

expanding MCU. So please check that out.