The Big Picture - Why Stop-Motion Animation Takes Forever to Make, With Nick Park | The Big Picture (Ep. 49)

Episode Date: February 16, 2018

Ringer editor-in-chief Sean Fennessey sits down with ‘Wallace and Gromit’ creator and Academy Award–winning animation director Nick Park to discuss the time-consuming process of making stop-motion animation, his commitment to the form, and his new underdog cavemen comedy, ‘Early Man.’ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It was a cottage industry once, but we've sort of expanded it and many people think it's a couple of guys in a shed. That's been the journey for us really in the last few years with making feature films, is how to industrialize the process the way Disney films are made. I'm Sean Fennessey, editor-in-chief of The Ringer,

and this is The Big Picture, a conversation show with some of the most exciting filmmakers in the world. This podcast is a safe space for animation. Unlike some of my colleagues here at The Ringer, I adore animated movies, especially those made by today's guest, Thank you. and a whole lot of creativity. For his trouble, he's got four Academy Awards. Park has a new movie, an underdog sports comedy about cavemen called Early Man, and he still has a gift for combining the sweet with the absurd. Nick and I talked about the extraordinary time it takes to make one of these movies,

why he won't give up stop motion, and the animation studios that intimidate him. Here's Nick Park. Nick, thanks for joining me today. Thank you. My pleasure. Nick, it's been 10 years, more than 10 years, since you had a film that you directed out into the world, right? I guess it is. How does it feel?

Fantastic, yeah. What took so long? It's always great. It's great to just have ideas and then see them become reality and out there. What took so long? I wasn't really aware of time passing, to be honest. Really? I'm an animator.

That's something we hear about the style, obviously, of the films that you make, too, the stop motion. It takes a great period of time. But what were you doing in that time? Did it take a long period of time to conceive the film? It did. I mean, these films, they're years in development. And, you know, I spent a couple of years just in a room with a writer just looking at cards, you know, postcards on a wall of, you know, looking at the story and the structure and

the character arcs and the story arcs and everything. Do you have sketches of those characters at that time too? Yeah, I recently just discovered an early sketch of a caveman from 2010. So that's how long I've been doing it. Wow. I mean, I've been involved in other helping develop other projects and stuff since then. That's what's taken the time. But, yeah, I mean, this one's, well, I guess I wasn't on it full time to start with,

and it slowly became a reality as we got the funding and the backing for it. And it was greenlit. And then from then on, it's taken about four or five years to actually. Why this story? Why did you decide to do a caveman story? Well, I guess I've had cavemen kind of in my blood since I was about 11. And for me, it seems to lend itself to stop frame animation, you know, the kind of rough, the hairy earthiness of it all and

almost the naive look a lot of comedy for me comes from the stop frame and especially cavemen and women and um i was a big fan of ray harry house and films and i absolutely loved one million years bc i couldn't believe it seeing that film when I was 11 of dinosaurs moving around with people. And I guess it's always been there. And actually that film is the one that made me pick up a home movie camera and start making my own movies. I discovered that my mother's home movie camera had a stop frame button on it, like one frame at a time.

And so I was a big dinosaur fan and started making my own dinosaurs out of clay and moving them around. I also had a love for cartoons, so I started doing funny stuff as well. So dinosaur movies were sort of your first films that you were making? Yeah, yeah. So this is a bit of a full circle moment.

It is, and I actually discovered, I think it's under my bed somewhere, i made a super 8 film of a a caveman and his pet dinosaur uh brontosaurus called bongo murphy and bongo it was called my first ever duo wow so this has literally been living inside you for decades yeah yeah so i've kind of remade that base that's incredible and i feel like the first shot of the movie is like direct Ray Harryhausen tribute, right? The two dinosaurs kind of going at it. It feels like it's out of one of his films. Yeah. And we actually, as a tribute to Ray, we named one of the dinosaurs Ray and the other one Harry. That's great.

But yeah, that opening sequence is very much a tribute, very much a nod to Ray Harryhausen, the great man. And we even put a bit of, it's really strange to be shooting on digital cameras, which is immaculate. And then you have to degrade the film and give it a bit of sparkle and a bit of grain to make it look like it was shot in 1968 or 1969. Yeah, that's fascinating. Because obviously your early films are all shot on film and they do have that natural grain, right? Yeah, that's fascinating because obviously your early films are all shot on film and they do have that natural grain, right? Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, anything shot. I mean, we've been shooting on digital cameras since Curse of the Were-Abbot was shot on film and then we, Matter of Loaf and Death, another Wallace and Gromit short,

we shot that on digital cameras. Do you have a preference? Well, we approached it with a little bit of caution because we kind of waited until the technology was right. But even jumping across was you have to make lots of adjustments and the DP, he had to change. Even in the art direction, we had to change the color of the wallpaper slightly in Wallace and Gromit so it didn't kind of sing out too vividly and that kind of thing.

But now the technology is more, I think it's more and more adjusted. Is there anything that you miss about some of the more, pardon the pun, like primitive techniques that you had earlier in your career? Well, I mean, in a way, we're still doing it in a way in the primitive you know you know early man is very much the old stop frame technique and and most of the um the principal animation is actually using stop frame and clay wherever we can um which is some digital that's right we've we've all the way through we've adapted or adopted digital technology where it helps us, where it makes the animation a bit quicker

For example, there's a lot of running around in the movie and people jumping through the air, for example in a football game So in the olden days we used to use wires thin wires or fishing line but then you'd have to position it it took the animator a while to position it so it didn't reflect the light uh nowadays we don't think about that we have a like a big bendy rig behind the character that lifts the character off the ground frame by frame, and then we just paint that out afterwards. Oh, incredible. So, yeah, so you don't have to worry about... So it makes the animation quicker, but it's the same technique.

What about writing the stories? Is it easier for you to write now because you feel like nothing is in your way? There's a lot more you can achieve? No, it's not easier in anything. The writing remains the hardest thing because it's not easier in anything. The writing remains the hardest thing, especially in a feature film, because it's telling a story that has to have all the right points, all the right structure and junctures, so that it remains compelling and entertaining throughout the whole 80, 90 minutes.

And that's a massive challenge. Was it difficult for you to have a story that is not sort of part of this native environment that you've been working in with Wallace and Gromit and the way that that expanded over the years too? Yeah, it was a very big challenge to be creating an entirely new world. But at the same time, that's what's interesting and exciting and inviting about it as well. It would have been easier in some ways if I'd have made another Wallace and Gromit movie. But one of the biggest challenges is establishing brand new characters

and a brand new world because you have to do so much in the opening 20 minutes to kind of get people kind of zoned in on these new characters. How much research are you doing for a story about prehistoric times? Is it important that something like this that is as lighthearted and fun be accurate? I was thinking about this because you have these two worlds colliding, literally this is sort of a stone age and a bronze age are colliding in the story.

But as I was watching it, I was like, is there an element of accuracy to what's happening here? Well, I think there is truth in it, but it's not at all accurate, if that can be true. I think it's, yeah, I didn't really, I did actually look into the, I did learn a lot about the Stone Age and the Bronze Age. I didn't realize the Bronze Age lasted so long. It's a few thousand years. But once I got the basic information, a lot of the reference in the film is to other movies, not so much to accuracy and scientific accuracy or historical for that matter. I could have set out to make just a prehistoric adventure comedy, but for me, I'm always looking for that quirky angle, and I feel like that's been covered so well anyway in animation.

So it was the football, or what you call soccer here. We call it soccer, yes we do. I'm sorry, I'm getting it wrong. But yeah, it's kind of about the invention of soccer and how this bunch of cavemen who are overpowered by the Bronze Age can no longer fight with their old stone tools and weapons. And so they have to. The only way they can win their valley back is to play soccer. You must be a soccer fan. I'm not a fan of soccer at all. Really?

No. So how did you land on this? I didn't. Well, I didn't grow up in a soccer fan family. I always supported my home team. I always had a bag with Preston North End on it, which is my local team. And so I was a nominal supporter.

But I do actually get excited about the game. I love the World Cup and get very excited. I wish America had got through i do as well it's a painful how dare you bring it up here it would have made there and we won't it would have made my job easier as well yeah no that's true but still the sport has has grown in profile huge here over the last 10 years sure yeah yeah was it hard for you then as not like a hardcore fan to make this the centerpiece of the story that you're telling? Yeah, well, I always feel I'm an outsider, so I've got an outsider's view on the game.

So it's not primarily a game for soccer fans at all or sports fans at all. It's primarily, you know, a comedy adventure with cavemen, but soccer was just the quirky angle that I found very early on that made the whole idea different. It really works. It does have the spirit of a sports movie in a great way. You know, like I said earlier in the show,

we know that it takes a long time to make these films. You know, that's something that you must get asked about all the time. But how long does it take specifically to make Early Man from start to finish? Yeah, well, the actual filming takes about 18 months but that's like the final part of the process uh about 18 months to two years to actually do the animation uh but before that we're we're storyboarding and designing characters and sets and everything and uh before that we're writing and um developing the story so all in all four or five years for the whole movie.

Unbelievable. Is there ever a time where you're like, I've run out of patience and I can't do this? Do you ever? Yeah, you do. You get tired. Sorry, I shouldn't say that because it's a very thrilling process as well.

And I feel so privileged to be able to preside over such a, you have an idea and then bring it through to realization on the screen and um i guess what really motivates me is the the gags and the comedy of it all uh i couldn't make a serious feature film i think i don't know what i'd go spare you know i would really go crazy um if i if it was serious So it's getting the ideas, but staying with them over four years and then seeing them in front of an audience, that's the most satisfying bit. with Squarespace. With beautiful templates created by world-class designers, Squarespace makes it easy to turn your idea into a new and unique website.

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I read that you have 35 to 40 animators working across 40 sets on the film. So what exactly does a director of a stop-motion animation film do? What exactly are you doing with that many people in your stead? Yeah, you are sort of overseeing a lot of people. And I kind of, while directing it alone, you know, I have two animation directors and people below me who then feed stuff to animators and briefed animators in more detail. And there was a whole you know there's 150 people or so working on it who are you know as you say like 40 animators uh a whole whole groups of different specialists and model making set building and all the usual editing and lighting and camera

crew and and we're filming on 35 sets at the same time at any one point. So we're filming all these different scenes at the same time. So it's a lot to look after. Do you have to approve everything? Yeah, there's one director friend of mine who said it's like being pecked by 100 chickens a day all day long. Because one minute I can be in some meeting about the story and some problem with the structure

and how are we going to solve this problem. And next minute, 20 minutes later, I'm in a meeting where they want to know what kind of, what color of grass it is on the football field or how long do you want the grass. Everything has been decided by somebody. Everything's been created. If something doesn't work,

do you have the flexibility to change it? I feel like there must be so much work that goes into the pre-production of the story. Absolutely. And as soon as we've got scenes that are pretty solid, we start storyboarding, and the storyboards help to inform everybody. So the storyboards are fairly detailed.

And, you know, so that helps the art department to know what to build and what to plan, how much studio space we need for that set, you know, and how many effects do we need so that all the digital people can start working. The storyboard acts as a kind of Bible for everybody to go by. When I think of you, and this is mostly because I'm ignorant, I think of literally you moving Wallace around and actually animating those films by yourself. Now, that's obviously not what happens anymore,

but are there times still when you're doing sort of the handmade work where you're in the nitty-gritty of it? Yeah, that's right. I've met many people who think it's a couple of guys in a shed. But it was a cottage industry once, but we've sort of uh journey for us really in the last few years is is with making feature films is how do we how to industrialize the process the way you know disney films are made or you know pixar film if that's not too crude a term to to industrialize because it's still you know these films are very personal and a lot our challenge is to keep it personal, to keep a voice, a single voice and a style, and have everybody working in that same style

so that it looks like it's been made by a couple of people in a shed. Yeah, but it is not. That's what you're saying. But it's not, yeah. So we found lots of ways to make the technique. I mean, we did start out. I was doing either on the first film, Grand Day Out, I did do about 90% of the technique. I mean, we did start out, I was doing either, you know, the first film,

Grand Day Out, I did do about 90% of the animation. Wrong Trousers, me and Steve Box did all the animation and then it grew and grew from there to Seven of Us

to, on a feature film, you know, as you say, there would be 35, 40 animators. Did you,

when did you know that you wanted to, to quote, you industrialized the process, that you wanted to make an expansive, you know, as you say, there would be 35, 40 animators. Did you, when did you know that you wanted to, to quote, you industrialize the process, that you wanted to make an expansive, you know, you've worked with Peter Lord for a long time. Yes. Producer. Did you, did you guys have a plan to say we're going to make Wallace and Gromit features? We're going to make Chicken Run. Did you know that it was going to keep growing in that way?

No, no. It's been a constant kind of constant expanding journey, really. We haven't we've never really had a plan, I don't think. I don't think Peter Lord and Dave Sproxton, who founded the studio, they I think it's just we've just gone from one thing to another as our instincts, you know, have led us. And, you know, we made shorts for many years and we were approached about doing features um i remember disney approached us at first about doing a feature back in the early 90s but we we always felt we were not ready like the whole the idea of going from half hour to a whole one and a half hours was just too big and we we didn't know how we could gather the expertise to

to enable that to happen and and how would our stuff stand up on the big screen we were worried about all that kind of thing and uh i guess what changed then well i guess a lot of our generation were making short films and you know pixar were doing short films in their early days and we all sort of knew each other at festivals and um and then we saw uh henry selleck's film you know the tim burton night maybe for christmas uh and that was like a wow you can do this and um and how how have they done that so that was a challenge for us and we had no experience at creating the stories the kind of story it would take to you know to to have a you know just a story that remains compelling and for for that long i i was wondering what is it like to know that you probably will only be able

to make maybe half as much of the films or the work as, say, an animator working in a digital format, maybe even less than half across your career. Is there any frustration or sadness about that? Or are you content to say, this is the style that I love and this is the work that I'll be able to make out of it? Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's very daunting when you're working on a full-length feature.

I have so many ideas. I would love to be able to get them out there quicker. You kind of accept that this is the time it takes. But strangely enough, though, talking to guys at DreamWorks or Pixar, the length it takes to make a full length feature film is about the same i guess it uh there are quicker ways of doing everything but um but it's really because it's not even a choice for me i just love the clay i love what comes from the clay it's like the way Gromit was created.

It didn't happen on a computer screen. It was because I had the clay model. I was going to make him have a mouth, and I was going to sculpt a mouth every frame and have him speak a little like Scooby-Doo or something. And I found I could only move his brow, and it was just through tweaking his brow practically that his character came about, and his character was born out of that sort of nuance

and very small kind of observational kind of human behavior that I found I could create, and he didn't need a voice anymore. And I feel like there's a humor that comes out of the clay itself and a certain charm. So for me, it's part and parcel of the whole thing. On the one hand, we say it's the story that matters most. It doesn't matter what the medium is, as long as you have a good story and good characters. But I think there is something that comes out of the actual medium here yeah they're bound together for you yeah

they are they are and then that's why i felt cavemen really suits this medium as well because there's something a bit naive and a bit earthy that comes out of the clay and yeah so since it takes four or five six years to work on films like this, how do you decide when to start the next thing? And how do you decide what that is? Yeah, that's a good question. It's funny how when you're working on one thing, it sparks other ideas. And so it seems a continuous process. I've always had one idea while working on it's almost like the idea you

can't work on starts to get exciting because you you're having to complete this idea right right yeah so i have ideas already for new films and and i guess i do i do tend to think in terms of stop frame because I know what looks funny in stop frame and what could be good animated in stop frame. So I always end the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing that they've seen? What is the last great thing that you have seen? The last great thing? Oh, gosh. That's a good question. But I've just seen Coco, which was pretty amazing. was pretty amazing oh yeah yeah what did you like about coco um i think i think it was just beautiful

elegantly made i was i was late i was learning the whole time about direction and yeah do you do you take a like do you take lessons from other animators i do yeah so i watch all sorts of stuff i don't just watch animation i just i watch all kinds of films and um old films and and recent films was there anything that stuck out in coco that you were like oh i hadn't thought of it this way it's just the whole thing with pixar the way they choose quite adult material, you know, subject matter as well to do with memory loss. And I love the work of Pete Docter as well. I'm going to see him at the weekend. You know, inside out, just how mature, entertaining at the same time

is very mature the work is at the same time. I feel similarly about Early Man and all your work. So Nick, thanks so much for coming and doing this today. Oh, it's very kind. Thank you. Thanks again for listening to today's show. On Monday, I'll be back with a new episode, a conversation with Yancey Ford, whose incredible film Strong Island is nominated for Best Documentary at the Oscars and is streaming

on Netflix right now, so check that out. And I want to give a special shout out to our Black Panther coverage on TheRinger.com this week. I wrote about the film for the site, as did Micah Peters, K. Austin Collins, Rob Harvilla, Andrew Garadaro, many more. And my pals at Binge Mode took a deep dive into the Marvel Cinematic Universe this week, so please check that out and check back here on Monday for a new episode of The Big Picture.