The Big Picture - Will Disney+ and Netflix Force the Academy Awards to Recognize Streaming? Plus: Why 'Doctor Sleep' Dozed Off | The Oscars Show

Episode Date: November 12, 2019

The launch of Disney's new streaming service raises fascinating questions about the future of streaming and awards season. Sean and Amanda dive in by looking at the launch slate and whether it will change how we think about the Oscars (1:37). Then, 'The New York Times' culture editor Gilbert Cruz joins to discuss the confusing 'Shining' sequel 'Doctor Sleep' and why the Stephen King adaptation struggled at the box office (28:05). Sean's little sister Grace makes a special appearance to break down her three favorite movies of 2019, and dunk on her older brother (46:50). Amanda and Sean break down this year's Best Original Song slate, which is historically one of the worst categories at the Oscars (1:05:24). And finally, Sean interviews writer-director Trey Edward Shults to discuss one of the year's most moving films, 'Waves' (1:19:11). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Gilbert Cruz, Grace Fennessey, and Trey Edward Shults Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Bill Simmons' Book of Basketball 2.0 podcast is officially out. This new podcast extends and reinvents his New York Times number one bestselling book from 2009 and breaks down the NBA's most important games, players, and teams. Starting with Steve Kerr in the premiere episode, Bill's using new commentary and fresh interviews to determine how the league has evolved and where it's headed. The first four episodes are out now wherever you get your podcasts and will continue on a weekly basis. Check out The Book of Basketball on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennessey. I'm Amanda Dobbins. And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the Oscars.

We are back on the Oscars show. Later in this show, we'll talk to The New York Times' Gilbert Cruz about the weekend's not-quite-box-office champion, Dr. Sleep, Stephen King, and why Stephen King adaptations are so challenging. Then we'll be joined by a very, very special guest, my little sister, Grace. Yes! She joined us to talk about some alternatives to those best of the year end lists that you're reading.

She shared her three favorite movies. She dunked on me a couple of times. Amanda interrogated her love for Tom Holland. Looking forward to that segment. And then later in the show after that, we'll have writer-director Trey Edward Schultz. He'll join me for an interview. Trey has made one of my very favorite movies of the year,

his deeply personal waves, so please stick around for that. First, we have to talk about the future of movies, television, the Oscars, and all things consumptive. Amanda, let's go to the big pictures. Big picture. This is a problem in the big picture. Do you know what I mean? Amanda, it's Tuesday, November 12th.

Disney Plus is launching. Yes. Now, it's here. I'm secretly lying, and it's actually Monday, November 11th, Disney Plus is launching. Yes. Now, it's here. I'm secretly lying and it's actually Monday, November 11th. Right. So you and I don't know how to log on yet. We don't know how to log on. In fact, there is no app for Disney Plus right now.

If you go to the app store, you cannot find Disney Plus. That's confusing to me because I don't know how people are going to know to get this other than the onslaught of marketing campaign materials that we've been getting for weeks and weeks. Still, this is a it's a pretty big deal. It's it's it's arguably bigger than any movie that came out last weekend and probably bigger even than Kevin Feige responding to Martin Scorsese's comments over the weekend by declaring them unfortunate. Where where where's the app?

Where's the app Amanda? I think it'll be everywhere. I mean, listen, I don't work for Disney and I don't know. I will say that the marketing push has been like remarkable. It is everywhere. And we've talked a lot about kind of who Disney Plus is for. And they have a very strong brand identity. You know, you can see the five major channels on every ad.

Let's see if I can recite them from memory. Pixar, Star Wars, Marvel, National Geographic, and I'm missing one. I don't know. Disney Animation? I don't think so. Anyway. Okay. The fifth channel to me will always be The Simpsons. Okay, great. But it's very clear of mostly what's on that channel, which is pretty remarkable and is in stark contrast to, say, the rollout of Apple TV a week ago, where all we knew is that Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon were going to be like screaming at each other. We didn't know where to get it.

We didn't know even how things would be rolled out. There is a lot of anticipation for Disney Plus, and it has really been positioned in addition to it just like being every commercial, every billboard, like, you know, on your Instagram feed, wherever you consume things, they have found a way to get to you and let you here. And there was a big piece in the New York Times by Brooks Barnes talking about like, I mean, there have been like a million of Bob Iger's big bet and Bob Iger knowing that the future of Hollywood is streaming and staying on past his retirement, blah, blah, blah. So they have made this something that we have to talk about on a podcast as like the future is here. Yeah. Normally we wouldn't discuss something like this. It's largely a TV endeavor, but I do think that it is sort of leading the way for what all content, for lack of a better word, is going to be. I mentioned that Grace is going to be on the show later. We went to Disneyland this weekend,

and certainly at Disneyland, they were making every effort they could to promote their product. But walking around the park, I hadn't been there in a number of years, and I noticed Disneyland is different now. They have changed the Tower of Terror ride, which was once a Twilight Zone-themed elevator shaft-style ride, to Guardians of the Galaxy's Mission Breakout. As I was walking around, you could see Captain America, you could see Spider-Man. And then we walked all the way to the edge of the park where we went to Galaxy's Edge and you could see Rey and Kylo Ren and a giant life-size Millennium Falcon. And Disney is everything now. I mean, it owns everything. Five years ago, you didn't have any of these things inside of Disneyland and now they dominate Disneyland to an extent. And so the same, I think, could

potentially be true for streaming. They have so much bulk catalog that people care about. And, you know, a few weeks back when the Disney Plus Twitter account trolled everybody by sharing every single movie that would be going on to the service, we had a great time and we laughed about it. And certainly 70 to 80% of those films are either garbage or completely forgettable, but that's true of every studio and every movie that's ever been made. That 20% or 30% is like the slice of nostalgia that drives people to the service every day. So they're already starting with this immense advantage on nostalgia. Plus, as you said, Pixar, Marvel, Star Wars, plus things like The Simpsons. They're going to have every episode of The Simpsons on

this service because they bought Fox and there should be like a Foxland also at Disneyland at this point. That's so sad. And yet, I think that we'll grade this launch based largely on the new stuff. Apple TV Plus obviously did not have this huge back catalog. iTunes is their back catalog and you can pay for things individually. They launched with five shows and a movie. Disney Plus is launching. I think their launch is a little bit more confusing, honestly, in terms of what the new products are. I don't think you would know what See or For All Mankind was just generally speaking. But if you Google what are the Apple TV Plus shows, you could find them. There's a little less clarity to me in terms of what

Disney Plus is going to be. So let's talk about a couple of those things just in very broad strokes. For me, without question, the reason to give them money is for The Mandalorian, which is Jon Favreau's sort of bounty hunter in the nitty gritty of the Star Wars universe series, which looks authentically good. And I am anticipating as I was at Galaxy's Edge and wandering around sort of like losing my wife and Grace when we're just sort of like getting enraptured by everything. Grace came over to me and she was just like, your mouth has been wide open since we got here. And like, I didn't care about much else in Disneyland, but I did care about that. And so I care about The Mandalorian

for the same reason. Will you watch The Mandalorian? Probably not. Okay. What if it's like really good? What if it's like Mad Men level good, but with blasters? Well, therein lies the problem. It's just really long. I don't need eight episodes. You can tell me, or 10, or however long. I guess we don't know how long it's, do we know how many episodes there are going to be? No idea.

I think it's 10. Okay. You know, my husband will probably watch it and I'll wander in and out and be like, oh, I thought the trailer that they showed during whatever sporting event my husband was watching last night looked very good. I was like, oh, I thought it was a trailer for Rise of Skywalker.

Wow, I just remembered the name off the top of my head. That's very exciting. Thank you. And then it wasn't. It was for the Mandalorian, which I've since learned is a bounty hunter of some kind. Yeah, and I think because the Mandalorian is going to run essentially all the way through December,

it's possible, it's not likely, but it's possible that The Mandalorian being better than The Rise of Skywalker is a narrative that will start to come to the surface. Yeah. We'll see. Jon Favreau or J.J. Abrams, who you like better is inessential ultimately, but I might like Jon Favreau better. A couple of other things that are premiering. Lady and the Tramp live action remake. Okay. Just what?

I don't know. Will you watch it? No. No, me neither. Noel is a Christmas movie starring Bill Hader and Anna Kendrick. Okay. I like them. Love both those people. It looks like a Hallmark movie. Yeah. All Christmas movies are now Hallmark movies. It's interesting how the Hallmark just flooded the zone and made so many bad movies that then we can only watch it through the lens of the cable like 25 days of christmas 25 movies hallmark owns and operates christmas that's what you're saying um no but they they operate christmas movies at this point okay high school musical the series

no no the world according to jeff goldblum this is a nat geo television show it's essentially a a talk show hosted by Jeff Goldblum where he's experiencing the wild and woolly, I don't know, features of this universe. He's being Jeff Goldblum? Being Jeff Goldblum. That's great. Will you watch that? Probably not, no. Okay. 30 Seasons of the Simpsons.

I don't think you're not interested in that. Here's the stuff that's coming soon. I think those are the things we'll see at launch. But coming soon, got a bunch of stuff. WandaVision. Great name. Love it. Great name.

Uh, Grace told me she does not care about this. Yeah. Uh, the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Okay. So who is that? That is Anthony Mackie and Sebastian Stan. Okay. The guy with one arm.

Yeah. He has, really? That happened? He has a biomechanical arm. I don't remember that. Okay. Uh, this is the show I'm most excited for, which is Marvel's What If. Okay. Really? That happened? He has a biomechanical arm. I don't remember that. This is the show I'm most excited for, which is Marvel's What If.

What If was a comic book in the 60s, 70s, 80s, in which it was essentially like a Twilight Zone version of the Marvel Universe. Every episode, it was like, what if Spider-Man was a woman? And then they would just do that episode. This could be good. It's the only show that feels authentically like it should be a TV show because it's episodic in nature. Yes, yes. Loki, you going to check that out?

No, I'm sure I'll see some memes. I always enjoy when- Do you like Hiddleston? Yeah, and I like when Loki shows up on the screen for a few minutes and is comedic relief. Yeah, me too. So there's one other thing that I noticed on here, which is a movie called Timmy Failure, colon, Mistakes Were Made. Timmy Failure is, I guess, an anime, is a book, a book series of cartoons. This movie is written and directed by Tom McCarthy, who wrote and directed Spotlight. I literally, as soon as I saw this, just Googled Tom McCarthy's IMDb page to look at it, the station agent, the visitor, Win-Win, the cobbler, Spotlight, two episodes

of 13 Reasons Why, and Timmy Failure. Very strange. I don't know. I mean, money talks, I suppose. So that is essentially what I'm aware of on Disney Plus that has not already previously been released. We just say all that to say, I have this sinking feeling, like not just movies, but sort of everything is going to be significantly changed by these services. I think seen from one vantage point, you could say, oh, I signed up for Apple. I signed up for Hulu. I signed up for Disney. I signed up for the Peacock.

I signed up for HBO Max. So I just have cable again. I just have a bunch of channels that I can all watch on one set top service. But because so much of this stuff is going directly to these services, for example, this morning, Amazon Prime announced that Troop Zero, a movie that's been playing festivals this year, is going straight to their service and not opening theatrically on January 17th. That's a movie that would have been like an Independent Spirit Award kind of nominee. Right. But everything is just starting to go to these services. Yeah. And we talk about how obviously that's great for consumers and most people want to live that way. Do you think that all of the award shows that we talk about so frequently on this show will

have to change their rules to accommodate the fact that we're building a nation of people who don't want to leave their homes at all? You mean specifically the Oscars and the Golden Globes? Yes. And I guess the SAG Awards? Yes. I think it will be interesting whether they will. You can see them really taking a stand and refusing to.

It feels like they'll fight it first. Yeah. But I wonder 10 years from now if we're just in a place where they're, I mean, there will be a theatrical exhibition business, but it might be more like vinyl where you can get it and it's cool and it's a little more expensive than you want it to be. But ultimately, most people are just listening on Spotify. I mean, that's where we are right now. That is where we are. to talk later in the weekend about Box Office and all of the movies that even five years ago we would have assumed to be giant box office business failed. Because unless it has the IP tie-in and you can go from the movie theater to Galaxy's Edge or to, you know, whatever Guardians of the Galaxy ride that you guys went on twice, I think this— We did. Mission Breakout. Great time. I really enjoyed myself. Fantastic.

Great performance by Rocket Raccoon. But unless it is that leave your home caliber event, everyone already waits to watch at home. And in a way, even the smaller indie movies have been kind of eventized where, you know, I got a lot of text messages from friends who went to see Marriage Story at the one theater in Los Angeles. Well, it's playing in two theaters, but everyone went to the Vista, all my East Side friends. Some great reports about the couples holding hands after leaving Marriage Story versus the couples who could barely look at each other. I'm going to be watching this space. But even there, it's like, oh, I'm going to see Marriage Story. It's a night out as opposed to a way of life. And I think the streaming services, just people wait. People are used

to watching things that way. And we are already living in that world in a lot of ways, and the technology is just catching up. It's true. It's a really good point. We're trying to eventize some of those smaller releases as much as we can, But it's challenging because it's a little hard for me to make the case to go see The Irishman in a movie theater and spend $65 and valet your car and buy popcorn when it'll be there in two weeks. Yeah, though, the case to go spend $65, which is like a crazy amount of money, but it is because that is an event movie to end all event movies. It's three and a half hours long. You really kind of have to be strapped in and surrender yourself to the experience. And it will be a very different experience

than if you watch it at home. It's true. And if you want that, then it's worth it. Although, you know, just chatting with my father this weekend, he flew Grace out here and we were talking about Scorsese and he likes Scorsese.

He introduced me to Goodfellas. He's looking forward to The Irishman and he was like, yeah, really looking forward to it hitting Netflix. He was not even considering going to a movie. Likewise, my father is like, I am mad that I have to wait a month. It is what it is. Do you think as far as the Oscars go that there will be some sort of middle ground with this sort of thing where they'll create like a streaming category or they try to reinvent the way that they reveal some of the awards? Or do you think that we're just going to have to have this systemic change? Given the Oscars, I'm sure they'll try a streaming category and it'll be a disaster. I mean, I think you and I are, I don't want to speak for you. I was categorically opposed to popular Oscar.

Oh, me too. And I'm categorically opposed to streaming Oscar just because let things be good because they're good and let things be bad because they're bad i agree but i i can't imagine them just lifting the eligibility i mean like sure any movie that defines itself as a movie is allowed to compete for the oscars i you know their rules are already so complicated and messed up as we'll discuss as we'll discuss that i i don't think that they'll just do an about face. Yeah, it almost feels like they need a new administration that needs to rewrite the Constitution somehow. Because there are, as you mentioned, we'll talk a little bit later about some of the best international film problems that have been happening over the last couple of weeks.

And there's just a lot of arcane mythology around what is and isn't a qualifier. And I don't know. We'll see. We'll have to watch it closely over the next five years, I suppose. Yeah. You know, at this point, it really just is a technicality that so many of the streaming movies get to compete because they are really only buying one or two theaters in New York or L.A. or other places. And we've heard from a lot of people who are pretty frustrated because you can't see Marriage Story for a few more weeks and you can't see Irishman for a few more weeks or maybe Parasite hasn't gotten to your city yet.

And I hear you. But at this point, it's really just kind of a pay to play by a couple of theaters and then you're allowed. And you could see a world where the theater requirement stays the same and then you rearrange some antitrust rules or whatever and then Netflix or Apple or Disney is owning and renting theaters in places across the country. And it's kind of like another version of amusement parks.

And that wouldn't be that dissimilar to what's happening right now. It's just kind of who owns them. It's true and i think some of it is driven by the filmmakers that they sign up and what they agree to in their contracts when they decide to make the movie martin scorsese obviously wants his movie to play in as many theaters as possible that's the experience he's had i wonder if we start getting younger filmmakers who are not as wedded to the theatrical experience if that will actually force the academy to change things if i don't, this isn't the case for him, but let's say Barry Jenkins was the kind of guy who was like, democratize it, put every film onto Netflix as soon as possible so that as many people can see

the movie as possible, and my movie should still be able to qualify for Oscars. The first person to do something like that, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone like Ava DuVernay, who has been very, very vocal about communities that are not as fortunate as those that have big theater chains or that have big theater chains or that have fancy movie theaters like the Arclight and that Netflix in many ways is the easiest way for people to see things. And someone like that, I could see starting, picking a conversation that changes the way that things go. I do think that Disney Plus is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of the conversation because so many people are going to

subscribe to it. And they're putting a lot of original stuff on there, even though, ironically, Disney is least likely to compete for Oscars and more likely to compete for the open space in our brain. You mentioned this was a bad box office weekend. Really was.

Really bad. Not historically bad, necessarily, but I was shocked. Now, Midway, Roland Emmerich's tale of the Battle of Midway was the box office champion, quote unquote, but it made $17 million. This movie cost well over $100 million to make.

It features plenty of famous people. This movie's starring Woody Harrelson. People didn't really seem to care. Did you have any conversations about Midway over the weekend? No. Have you seen Midway? I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it either.

I don't know if it was screened. It didn't even occur to me that I would need to go see it. I definitely watched some commercials. You know, I really wanted more for Patrick Wilson in this life. That's kind of my thought on Midway. Sad. Every time he shows up in the commercial, I'm like, oh, I love him. He's doing great. You know, one other thing that I did with my sister over the weekend is we took a tour of the Warner Brothers studio lot. And there was a big exhibit for Aquaman. And there's quite a quite a shrine to Patrick

Wilson's character. Oh, I'm glad for him. I think he's doing a quite a shrine to Patrick Wilson's character. Well, I'm glad for him. I think he's doing great. He has that girls episode. So we don't have to talk about this movie too much yet because we'll have Gilbert on later in the show.

But man, Dr. Sleep took a bath. Woof. Yeah. If you would ask me three weeks ago, I would have said this movie is going to make

like $40 million opening weekend. It's going to be the biggest thing. It was a sequel to The Shining. Right. Did people not know what this was? I think that people did not know what this was. That's kind of a they should have just called to The Shining. Right. Did people not know what this was? I think that people did not know what this was. That's kind of a, they should have just called it more Shining. Yes.

Shining more. Agree. Too Shining, too Nicholson. I don't know. I also, having seen this movie, I still don't know what a Dr. Sleep is or who the Dr. Sleep is, which is a problem, but we can discuss that later. It is Ewan McGregor. I can clarify that for you. I have to tell you that I thought it was someone else. We'll save it for the Dr. Sleep segment. Got it. Playing with Fire. Did you check that out? Nope. John Cena comedy about firefighters? Nope. Not what you want. Last Christmas. Seen that one. I saw that as well. You did not see the end of it. I walked out. Yeah. This is a dog baby of a movie. So I guess if you care about these spoilers and you don't use the internet, hit the 30 second button. But I was very angry because

like two months ago, Kate Halliwell and Juliette Lipman, our friends, spoiled Last Christmas for me just based on the trailer. Then it turned out they were 100% right. They were right. They're so right. And the only enjoyable part of this movie, that's not fair actually, when Emilia Clarke actually finally sings Last Christmas at the very end, she's pretty good. I miss that part. She's trying. It's like three nice minutes of Emilia Clarke

being charming and singing Last Christmas. Somehow the movie doesn't end there. It keeps going, whatever. But the other good part was when all the people around us who don't use the internet had, the twist happened and they didn't know what was coming and were so pissed. Just like really angry. Just a lot of women just being like, what the fuck? And that was really fun. That is truly not what you want your audience to be saying when you're showing them a lighthearted romantic holiday comedy. I thought

Emilia Clarke was actually pretty good. It's not really, it was not her fault at all. It's just, the movie just does not work. It's kind of shocking how much it doesn't work, given the way that everything is so kind of retrofitted and overmanaged in this day and age. I was just like, this is just an L. Jojo Rabbit expanded to 800 theaters and brought in $4 million this weekend, and it's up to nearly $10 million.

I think, very quietly, everybody's getting more and more comfortable with Jojo Rabbit. Yeah. And it's going to start to make a little bit more money. And everybody's going to be like, actually, you know what? This is just like a nice movie. We knew this was coming. Makes me feel good.

I know. But just there was like two weeks ago, it was like, actually, can Joker win Best Picture? And now we're going to get to a can Jojo win Best Picture conversation. And all these stupid conversations we're having about Marriage Story and The Irishman, all these movies we actually love, we're going to end up in a weird Jojo Rabbit debate hellhole on January 12th. I'm kind of dreading it. I really, the comedy bros have too much power as it is, and I just don't want to be a part of it. Speaking of movies that nobody is talking about, I mentioned Harriet last week, made $12 million.

It's now up to $24 million. No one's talking about this movie except for all the people that are seeing it. If you think about the films that we obsess over, many of which are great. The Parasite, wonderful film. Significantly less than half as many people have seen Parasite as have seen Harriet. This is, again, for Focus Features, like a huge hit. $25 million in two weeks for a movie starring Cynthia Erivo who no one's ever heard of. Come on, respect Cynthia Erivo.

I mean, she's very talented. Listeners on this podcast have heard of Cynthia Erivo. If you've seen Widows, you know Cynthia Erivo. I mean, she's very talented. Listeners of this podcast have heard of Cynthia Erivo. If you've seen Widows, you know Cynthia Erivo is great. Honey Boy opened this weekend. Yeah. I have been accused of not giving this movie

enough attention. Okay. I don't know what to say. It's Shia LaBeouf wrote a very autobiographical film about his experience as a child actor

and his father and the way that he was raised. It's directed by Alma Harrell. It's a really good movie that features an incredible Shia LaBeouf performance. We should note that Shia LaBeouf is playing his own father. Plays his own father. In this deeply personal and, I have to say, interestingly unresolved movie about his own career and his own issues and his family.

And it's kind of tough to watch at times. Yeah, it is. It is. It's very honest. It's very well made. It actually did really good business this weekend on four screens. Its per screen average was higher than almost every other movie that was released this year, which indicates a lot of interest.

I don't know if Shia is going to play properly on the awards circuit. He's obviously a very divisive figure. He's like an electrifying actor and I think a fascinating guy. I've interviewed him a handful of times in my career. I like him. I'm interested in what he has to say about the world, even when he's completely off the rails. But this will be kind of something to keep an eye on as it starts to go bigger and bigger and bigger. The interesting tension in the movie is that so much of it is about Lucas Hedges plays the elder Shia LaBeouf. And it kind of goes back and forth. And it's basically about how his acting career is detrimental to his mental health because he hasn't resolved a lot of these issues.

But it does then talking to Shia LaBeouf about that in real time makes it a little uncomfortable. I don't know how I would feel if I were Amazon putting Shia LaBeouf through like the entire circuit, having seen this movie and knowing what this movie says about his experience of the business. I agree. It is like a life imitating art, imitating life, sort of a situation where these kinds of experiences where you just get interviewed 300 times in a row and you have to go to 900 parties are the exact kinds of things that inflame a lot of the sensitivities that the movie is trying to portray sincerely. So interesting movie. If it gets bigger and bigger, maybe we'll dedicate a little bit more time to it on the show. We teased the best international feature mess. So last week, Nigeria's official selection

for the best international feature, Lionheart, was disqualified because the film is primarily in English, which is Nigeria's official language. But that makes it ineligible for this category. You know, we had a conversation on the show about this category, I want to say a couple months ago,

and I feel like I got it wrong. I feel like I might have indicated that films in English could be eligible for this because they changed the title of it and they changed a couple of smaller rules inside it. But in fact, that is not the case. If you are releasing a film from England or Canada, then they need to be in a language that is not English. Then this morning, Austria's selection, Joy, which is also primarily in Nigeria, was also disqualified for obviously the same reason. The film features primarily

Nigerian characters speaking English. Both films are distributed by Netflix. They obviously, they either misunderstood the rule or there was not enough communication here. There's a little bit of outrage about this. Ava DuVernay was very frustrated by it. She spoke out against it. It's been the topic of a lot of sort of awards season watcher conversation of late. You know, these are two fairly small films that were not likely to compete for the win. I feel like already we can just safely say Parasite's going to win this category.

But it raises an interesting thing, which is inclusiveness comes in all forms. And the idea of inclusiveness for the English language is kind of fascinatingly ironic, but it feels like there's a little bit of a momentum to just change this category full stop. Yes, and i think they should and and the adjustment was last year i believe it used to be called best foreign film and i think the reasoning for changing it from foreign film was the that to prioritize inclusiveness and to not make any other ring of foreign exactly so you know and then this is, I think, the construction of the rule. I mean, far be it for me to defend or even empathize with the Academy, but I believe it is to prioritize movies that don't typically get a fair chance in a, quote, local film festival, to quote Bong Joon-ho, because people are pretty lazy and don't want to watch movies with subtitles or with different languages. And then, you know, Nigeria was obviously colonized by the UK.

So that's why it's its official language. So it's a lot of complicated issues. I think they do have to change the rule. I don't know how you do it. I mean, I guess you just say a film that is from another country and make special exclusions for England and Canada and Australia to prevent against the laziness of voters? I guess so. I mean, if we're trying to do letter of the law here, Downton Abbey should compete for best international feature. Right. You know, I don't, it's going to be difficult for them to unravel it. And I think part of the problem was it's mostly like a marketing problem. When they changed the title, as you said, it seemed like people got

confused. I certainly got confused when I was trying to understand it. And it's understandable that people would want a change. I don't know if there's a way to make a change that's going to make everybody happy. And Lord knows we don't want the nation of Australia revolting. That would just be terrible. That used to be a penal colony, you know. It's bad optics. Also, it's just kind of they weren't ahead of the ball on this. Yes. And Netflix wasn't either. I mean, it is Netflix's job to know what the rules of every category are. And even though a lot of these rules are quite arcane and the way that information is rolled out is not always optimal.

Right. You've got big organizations making a lot of decisions with a lot of plates spinning in the air at the same time. We'll have to see how that gets resolved next year, I would presume. It's not going to change this year. Amanda, let's now go to a couple of our guests and we'll go to Stock Up, Stock Down. If it goes bust, you can make 10 to 1, even 20 to 1 return. And it's already slowly going bust. The Big Picture is delighted to welcome a guest to this segment of Stock Up, Stock Down. We are going stock way down, and we are joined by Gilbert Cruz, the culture editor of The New York Times.

Gilbert, thank you for being here with us. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Gilbert, we've asked you to come onto this show not just because you are a friend of the pod, but because you are an avowed Stephen King fan, mega fan? How would you describe yourself? I would not use either of those. I would say I've read every book and I have seen every movie. So if that means I'm a fan or a super fan, maybe that's for someone else to say. I don't like to use those words. I'm just very, I'm up on the guy and ready to talk about him.

I'm going to give you the term of expert. You are certainly the Stephen King expert in my life. Amanda, that's great. Thank you. That is what I will call myself. You're so welcome. Feel free to quote me. So because of your expertise, we want you to help us understand the shape of this movie

and everything that's happened. So maybe you can give us a little bit of context in terms of the history of The Shining the book, The Shining the movie, Dr. Sleep the book, and Dr. Sleep the movie, and where all of these things fit together briefly. It is, there's a lot to go through. I'll try to make it very quick, especially because Sean, you and your colleagues went through a bunch of this already on recent episodes of The Rewatchablesables which i listened to and which was a delight uh the shining is one of stephen king's earliest books um he arguably became one of the most popular authors in the english language because of the success of the

um of some of the earliest of his movies adaptations he had uh brian de palma do carrie he had uh david cronenberg do the dead zone and he had stanley kubrick do the shining stanley kubrick and made a movie that as many of us know stephen king was not a fan of at all he disavowed it at every turn and the reason he did that was because he felt that um it did not accurately represent the family that he had put in the book, a family that for all intents and purposes sort of represented his family. He was an author who used to be an alcoholic. He wrote a book about an alcoholic who is trying to be an author and who against sort of his will ends up trying to murder his family. Stanley Kubrick made a movie that is a masterpiece.

And Stephen King is one of the only people possibly in the world, other than his hardcore fans, who thinks it is not a masterpiece. He continues to say, I don't understand why people think it is so scary. That is his right. One could argue that Stephen King is possibly the last person that we should be asking about the cinematic version of The Shining.

So, Mike Flanagan, pretty good, hard director, recently made Gerald's Game for Netflix, which was an adaptation of a Stephen King book that many people thought unfilmable because it is a book in which a woman is handcuffed to a bed for the entirety of the book. And much of the book

takes place in their head. Did a pretty good job, I would say. I don't know if you've seen Gerald's Game, but it's a pretty good sort of grimy horror movie. I think it's very good. I think it's worth recommending, actually. Gilbert, I haven't seen it. You're, I don't, you're fine. Knowing you, I don't think you're going to see it. Okay, thank you. So Mike Flanagan, I would call him a fan, super Stephen King fan. He had a near impossible task, which was to make a sequel to The Shining. And he had to do that after Stephen King had written his own sequel to The Shining, and he had to do that after Stephen King had written his own sequel to The Shining.

At the end of the book, The Overlook Hotel, which is one of the more famous movie edifices of all time, at the end of the book, the hotel burns down. At the end of the movie, the hotel is still standing. I interviewed Mike Flanagan a few months ago, closer to when It Chapter 2 was coming out, to ask him about how does one make a good Stephen King adaptation. And in talking about the challenge that he faced here, he said, I had to stay true to the book in which the hotel burned down and which is all this other weird stuff going on while understanding that most people see the story of The Shining through the images that Stanley Kubrick put in front of us. So he had to reconcile the two, which is something that he tries to do with this movie. I would say it's a mixed bag, but I actually think it's much better than anyone could have expected from a project that sort of has no reason to exist. I would agree with that take. I think that this is actually mostly successful

as a movie about the Dr. Sleep character that Amanda is having a hard time identifying who that is exactly. I would say it is not a great Kubrick movie at all. It is not a great acknowledgement of Kubrick's accomplishments. I think visually and tonally, Flanagan is just onto something completely

different in his career than what Kubrick was doing. And so this movie, which is, it's not quite bifurcated. It's essentially two thirds, maybe three quarters King's novel. And then this final quarter that is what Gilbert is describing is trying to kind of blend these two source materials together. Amanda, what did you make of this movie? It's a very hard job and I'm sympathetic to the fact that he is serving two masters. He is serving this cinematic achievement, which is a very visual achievement. And then he is also serving Stephen King, who is an author and who communicates his ideas and his horror through words. And I think that's, in a lot of ways, the conflict between the original Shining and

possibly what Stephen King feels. I mean, also, obviously, Stephen King is way too close because like everything else, it's auto fiction. Here we are in 2019 and it's auto fiction. But I sympathize with Mike Flanagan because it is really, they're kind of polar opposites in attitude and in philosophy as much as they are in you know the visual aspects it doesn't totally it didn't work for me as a result I think because I prefer like the Stanley Kubrick blend of brand of horror like most of America to this the fantastical world building as approach that Stephen King is taking with this like roving band of misfits and Rosie's wearing a hat. And there's a character named Dr. Sleep who I honestly, you guys are joking. I didn't

know who it was because there was another character in the book, in the movie who keeps saying sleep a lot and she really likes Casablanca. And so I was really drawn to her. And there's only one scene where Ewan McGregor is called Dr. Sleep and they don't explain what Dr. Sleep is. Like, what is Dr. Sleep? I honestly don't understand the mythology. All right, look, I'm not a box office analyst, but I think Dr. Sleep might have been a great title for a book. It is a terrible title for this movie that honestly, if it had been called anything else, if it had been called The Shinings, if it had been called Shine On, if it had been called anything with some derivation of the word shine in it, it probably would have resonated more with people who actually like The

Shining. Dr. Sleep means nothing. I think Amanda's sort of joking, but it's also very confusing if you go in saying, I'm going to see a sequel to The Shining starring the grownup version of the kid. It's called Dr. Sleep. I don't understand. There are vampires in the story, and there's another little girl that has superhero powers, and now Shining is like superhero powers. There's a lot going on in this movie. Yeah, there's so much mythology to unpack, too.

And the movie really compresses a lot of the book's mythology, which is interesting. Yeah, or skips it. I literally, I think everything Gilbert said is 100% right, and I'm serious. What'm serious what is dr sleep i watched the whole movie i don't know what it is so i will i think i can explain it um dr sleep is so danny torrence uh ewan mcgregor plays the grown-up version of dan torrence he is dr sleep he is someone who through his use of psychic powers through the fact that he has this thing called the shining, when he starts to work at a hospice, a place where significantly elderly people are about to die, he can go in at their moment of death,

which he knows about because there's a cat. Apparently they also have psychic powers. He can go in and make them feel less afraid. He can go his mind into their mind and sort of lull them into the next world. So there's one scene in which a man who's about to die, I thought a very affecting scene, very inelegantly calls him Dr. Sleep. That is why the novel is called that.

That is why the movie is called that. It's not a great title. It just has nothing to do with the rest of the movie. In addition to it being a dumb marketing decision to call it Dr. Sleep because they should have just said, it's The Shining again, dummies. It also doesn't make, it has nothing to do with the movie except for that one scene. Ironically, I would presume or assume that this is actually what draws Mike Flanagan to it.

Aside from the fact that I'm sure he's a huge fan of The Shining and a huge King fan in general, Flanagan's films, especially his Netflix series, Hill House, are very moody pieces about families and people who have experienced severe trauma, reckoning with their past and trying to figure out a way forward in their future. And that series in particular on Netflix and this movie are really well matched. They're well paired. And he's a very gifted filmmaker. As I said, I think the problem is, I don't think he's necessarily a full stop match for Stephen King. And he's definitely not a match for attempting to recreate Kubrick's world. Just the look and feel of his movies is just so totally different. Gilbert, what did you think about him trying to reconcile those two tones?

So when I said he had a near impossible task, which was to reconcile King and Kubrick, really, it's a three-way task, which is King, Kubrick, and then the thing that he brings, which, Sean, you're absolutely correct in identifying as a directorial focus on families, families of our own making, trauma, how the past affects our future, addiction, which is a big part of this book, which is a big part of the movie. And the parts that he brings to it, both visually and tone-wise and thematically, I think are the most interesting parts of the movie. It's when he overuses the music from the original Shining, when he overuses, as he does, there's a heartbeat motif on the soundtrack that is used over and over again in moments that seemingly

are supposed to have no tension at all. And then in the last half hour, when he goes back to the Overlook, which he recreated for this movie and which is, you know, run down after 30 years later. And there's a three or four minute was putting his own I think very identifiable directorial stamp on these two other you know

auteurs in their own way if I had to recommend one thing about it it's Rebecca Ferguson yes who I really really enjoyed as Rose the Hat

who is the head of the True Knot which is a cult that feeds on children with psychic powers which is very confusing as you guys mentioned, about Inside the World of The Shining.

But she's doing a kind of villain I don't know if I've ever seen before. She's wearing yoga pants through a great deal of this film. She's very casual. She seems to be meditating quite frequently when not feasting on steam, which is the, I guess, is it the life energy of, of chill killed children? Gilbert, is that essentially what steam is?

Oh God. Um, I thought the steam, I thought steam was this shine converted into matter. Yes. Well, it's sort of, but when the, I know, I know you were you were and and it's it is confusing there's you see moments in which the uh older people are dying in the hospice when they when they die steam comes out of them these are people that do not have the shining it is all right uh a thing that everyone has but people i can't believe i'm going into such depth here people that have the shining have in greater amounts uh so danny uh poor um baseball kid what was his name he was in room who's the actor jacob jacob tremble jacob tremble who's

who's in this movie for uh two scenes and has to participate in one of the more grisly uh murder scenes i've seen in quite a while. Immensely upsetting, this scene. Just horrifying. Bizarre that Jacob Tremblay, who has some clout as far as child actors go, chooses to be a part of this. It's a bit confusing.

I wonder if there's some Jacob Tremblay footage on the cutting room floor of this movie. Nevertheless, I think that Ferguson is great. I think that the performances

are mostly pretty good. I think that the performances are mostly pretty good. I was reading the deadline analysis of this movie's failure at the box office, and it really did fail. I was telling Amanda earlier on the show, Gilbert, that if you would have asked me six weeks ago how this movie would do, I would have said it would have cleared $40 million easily on opening weekend, just given the awareness of The Shining and the anticipation. And it really did. I mean, it did less than half of that and is going to lose a lot of money for Warner Brothers. But as I was reading the deadline analysis of this, they cited that there was little to no interest in Ewan McGregor as a leading man, which is one of the reasons why they think that this

movie struggled to succeed. Obviously, Jack Nicholson's performance in the original The Shining is completely iconic. Even the Danny Torrance performance is really iconic. And I guess, are people not interested in Ewan McGregor as a thing? Amanda, what do you think? Well, I think it's a little bit, again, you don't even know that Ewan McGregor is Dr. Sleep, is Danny Torrance, is the grown-up kid from The Shining. I think it's unfair to pin it entirely on Ewan McGregor. Because again, I don't think, is there an actor you could put in this role that would get people to the theaters? No, I think people are only going if they want to see what happens in The Shining. Gilbert, recast it for us. Who do you want to see?

I knew you were going to ask this question and I gave it exactly zero thought. Who would be good as a grown-up Danny Torrance? Denzel Washington? I'm going to avoid the question, actually, by agreeing with Amanda that it doesn't matter who the actor is. This is a Warner Brothers property. This is their, you know, as people on Ringer Podcasts like to talk about very often, because it's true, IP is everything. This is something that they had in their studio bank, and they sold it as the sequel to The Shining. They actually said on some of the posters, the next chapter

in The Shining story, as if somehow there's going to be a third chapter. So this movie was sort of sold entirely on the imagery from the Kubrick film, on the fact that this is from Stephen King. It's in the Shining Universe. Ewan McGregor, whoever else you put on it, it doesn't matter. People didn't want to see this particular story at this time. I don't think we're going to see another story in the Shining Universe anytime soon, but we are bombarded by King adaptations right now. Gilbert, has there been a story that you've never seen adapted that you think should make it to the big screen? There was a time when I thought,

there's this book that he wrote in the early 80s called The Talisman. He co-wrote it with Peter Straub, who is another sort of horror writer who came up in the late 70s and early 80s. Wrote a book called Ghost Story. That should have been made. It's essentially a small boy who goes into a fantasy world and has to undertake a very scary journey. At some point, I think George Romero maybe was attached to it. Steven Spielberg was definitely attached to the talisman at some point. And it's surprising to me given how popular fantasy has become in the past decade plus that this has not been made into a movie or a TV series. I mean, everyone thinks of Stephen King as a horror novelist, rightly so, but he has done so many other genres and he's done them pretty well. He's done several fantasy books. He's in the middle of doing a bunch of crime novels right now, a series of which

have been made into a TV show on DirecTV, I think. So he does all these things. And fantasy is sort of the coin of the realm in a lot of minds of studio chiefs and people who are on TV networks. So The Talisman, crazy that it hasn't been done yet. Eyes of the Dragon, another fantasy novel that is maybe for audiences a little bit younger, crazy that it hasn't been done yet. The fantasy point, Gilbert, is so interesting because to me, the Rosie, the hat, what's the group called? The True Knot. The True Knot. That's a pretty fantasy-esque storyline. And that's kind of why I wasn't as into it as I was into either the Shining stuff or the Family stuff. But it's surprising to me that it didn't work, given that it does have a lot of the elements and the mythology and, you know, the fanciful costumes. I think the worst thing that could have happened to the pitch that you guys are making is they did adapt The Dark Tower

into a very bad movie about three years ago starring Matthew McConaughey and Idris Elba and it bombed. And even though The Dark Tower is one of the most

beloved King properties, I think in some corners the most beloved and the most picked over and analyzed, it just didn't work as a movie and so maybe

it's just been abandoned. We'll see. I mean, the films that are coming soon I think include Salem's Lot, a remake, which was a television miniseries many years ago. And The Long Walk, which I'm not familiar with. What is The Long Walk, Gilbert? The Long Walk is a, uh, novella that he wrote under his, um, pseudonym, Richard Bachman.

Um, that's essentially takes place in the future. Uh, it's sort of like the Hunger Games. There are 100 kids who are put off on a long walk, and they have to walk until they die. And it is a competition that is filmed and that everyone in America or the world, I don't remember how big it goes, they watch this competition and everyone's rooting for certain people to make it and for certain people not to make it. And it's this weird sort of futuristic dystopian horror novel. Walking Until We Die, it's a bit like making a podcast. Gilbert Cruz, thank you for joining us on The Big Picture. I appreciate your expertise. Thank you very much. I listen to you guys all the time. It was a pleasure to be on.

Thanks, Gilbert. Bye, Amanda. We're joined by a special guest. It is my sister, Grace Fantasy. Grace, thank you for being here. Oh, thank you for having me. Grace, I gave you some homework. I frequently hear from you about a movie you've seen and you liked or didn't like. And oftentimes when I hear from you, I hear about how wrong I was about my take on the movie.

So I thought it only fair that Amanda and I open the floor and let you talk about the movies that you love and why you love them. So I know you did your homework. Yeah. I gave you an assignment of three movies. Did you pick three? Yeah.

We're going to go three to one. You ordered them? No, but I can. Yeah, do it right now on the fly. Okay. But, you know. So, like, should I go one, two, three? No, no.

Three to one. Three to one. Three to one. This is essential in list making. You got to know you always start with the least interesting and you go to the most interesting at the end. So, you keep people on the line the whole time. Okay. So, number three is It Chapter Two.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. All right. Okay. So, I know you loved It Chapter One. Yes. That's one of my favorite movies. What did you love about the original It?

I don't know. It was just kind of relatable with like all the characters being around my age when the movie came out. And I like scary movies. So that was a lot of fun. I saw it with my friend. I got like really scared in it. It was, I really enjoyed it. So It Chapter Two, I think people were a little bit more critical of it in the world.

Yeah. It didn't seem as beloved. No, I liked the first one a lot more just because it's one of my favorites, but the second one was still really good. I enjoyed it a lot. What did you like about it? Just that they were wrapping up the story, the fact that you got to see where these people were when they were adults. Yeah, I liked how they like grew up and all their fears kind of changed from when they were kids and just showed how their lives end up. And I don't know, I just thought it was a good wrap up. Did you know that Amanda is very weak and won't watch horror movies? Yeah, I wanted to ask you about how many, how often, do you go see every horror movie? No, I'm not a huge horror movie person, but I'm like, I like enough of them, you know? What is it about It and It Chapter Two that makes it from like, I have no interest horror movie to a horror

movie that's one of your favorites yeah i don't think you'd ever told me about a horror movie you'd watched until the first it i think it might have been the first horror movie i've ever watched so it just kind of started me so it just has it's like 2017 or whatever year it was five when i think back on it yeah i do you think you'll be the kind of person that is because like when i was your age i was really into horror movies and the more horror movies you watch the more you're like I could take something even darker than this

I could take something even darker than this and then you start watching things and you're like this is as evil a thing as you can watch in the world do you think you're going to keep pushing it or do you think you'll just watch that kind of like the mainstream

this is about teenagers in trouble they got to get their way out of this problem with the big clown. Or do you see yourself getting into the dark heart of cinema? No, because I'm kind of a baby where I can't go to bed at night after I watch a scary movie that's like too scary. Yeah, I was going to ask, what were the repercussions of It and It 2? I had, there was like a week of It 1 where I did not go to sleep for a while. What were the dreams?

It wasn't dreams. Like I just couldn't go to bed. I had to keep was like a week of it, one where I did not go to sleep for a while. What were the dreams? It wasn't dreams. Like, I just couldn't go to bed. Like, I had to like keep my TV on. I couldn't go to bed without the light. Yeah. I mean, that's my fear. I didn't see it specifically because Chris Ryan was like, the first 30 minutes are so scary. That in a just like a don't go down their way that you, Amanda, will not be able to handle it.

It made it so much scarier just being the same age as them so like picturing like there's certain scenarios where I was like I could never yeah I mean it's a movie about child murder

so that's not yeah no that's tough it's a little challenging did you did you watch any other horror movies after it like have you seen Scream yeah

yes I watched all the Screams twice I love those movies were they scary to you no I just really enjoyed them see what's sad is that Scream came out when you said like watching someone the same age I thought of it because I was a little bit younger, but basically the age of the Scream people when Scream

came out and I was terrified by it. I don't know. I mean, that's why I don't see horror movies because Scream was really scary for me. Scream is so good though. Scream is so good. The original Scream. Is that your favorite one? The original. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's the best one by far. After that, they're still good. Like the fourth one wasn't that great, but. Was that the most recent one? Yeah. Like the 2010s one?

That was like the last one. Yeah. That's not, that's not it. But the OG. The original, you can't top that. With Neve Campbell is an amazing movie. And Drew Barrymore. Yes.

And the call is coming from inside the house. Yes. Yeah, that's good stuff. Okay, so that's number three in chapter two. Yes. Number two. Spider-Man Far From Home. All right.

You had to know that one was coming. I'm kind of surprised this wasn't number one. So I want to give you a chance to talk about Tom Holland. Okay. Your passion for him is real. I love Tom Holland. That's all I can really say. He's so nice.

He's so good looking. Like, come on. I agree with this. Thank you. Every single one of these movies, I'm just like, oh, that Tom Holland. That's all I can really say. He's so nice. He's so good looking. Like, come on. I agree with this. Every single one of these movies, I'm just like, oh, that Tom Holland. He's so charming. Can I ask you, because I really do walk away from all of the Avengers movies, the Spider-Man movies, just being like, I'm a fan of Tom Holland, even though it's probably not age appropriate for me to say that at this point. He's like, how old is he? He's 22 or 23 okay it's it's not totally what i want but it's not in a dangerous place well anyway moving on

maybe you both can fight for tom holland in his heart do you care about spider-man yes very much do you care about spider-man because you think spider-Man's relatable or because Tom Holland is so good at being Spider-Man? Both. Cause Spider-Man is technically like 16 or 17. I'm 16. So he's like the same age as me. And he's just such a relatable character now. Cause you know,

he's just a teenager trying to go through high school and life, but he also is like balancing something else. Yes. That's something else is having superpowers. Thanks to a radioactive spider. I know. So he's somewhat relatable and yet somehow living a very different life than you. Do you find yourself getting interested in, like, I'm a huge nerd, right?

You know that. I'm like obsessed with nerdy things. I loved Spider-Man growing up as well. And I read a lot of comic books and I got really invested in the history of Spider-Man. The same way I'm asking you, like, did you turn out to be a nerd like me with horror movies? Did you turn out to be a real Spider-Man head? Or are you just really excited about the way that the MCU has come together and the way that they're putting Tom Holland in these movies and just enjoying them as basically like high school comedies that have superhero stuff in them? That was a really big question.

Thank you. With a lot of like inside questions. Okay. So. There's a link big question. Thank you. With a lot of like inside questions. Okay. So. There's a little clip that I just use that against you for all the time. Every time I interview

a director, that's exactly what they're thinking but not saying. There was like five questions in one question, so I don't know. Do you see yourself

being into Spider-Man long term without Tom Holland? Well, to be fair, I didn't like the Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield movies. I watched all of them because I wanted to like them, but I didn't. Okay. But Tom Holland was just kind of perfect. Between Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield, you got to pick one.

So, Andrew Maguire was more recent. Yeah. And Tobey Maguire is kind of outdated with those movies. Yeah, that's true. But Andrew Garfield just wasn't like those weren't good movies also very true

that's true yeah so good take yeah I genuinely neither Tom Holland

is the answer yeah what do you think of Jake Gyllenhaal I thought he was amazing in this he's really good I thought he was

so good like when they like revealed Mysterio I knew he was going to be bad. But sitting there and, like, watching it build up, I didn't know how they were going to do it. It is really well done. Did you end up seeing this movie?

Yeah, of course. There were lots of drones. Yeah, there were a lot of drones. That was my main takeaway. It was that Tom Holland's very charming. I did like Jake Gyllenhaal. I really enjoyed their press tour, the tour of them together. Yes, they're so great together.

All of them being bros. Jake Gyllenhaal suddenly on Instagram and, like and has reinvented his personality and really enjoying doing media. So I enjoyed that. Yeah, I liked it. I liked the first one better with Michael Keaton. Sure, when he was the vulture. Yeah. Of course, when he was the vulture, as I know well.

Yeah. I know. He's just a dad being mad about prom. I was like, oh, I get this. Also wearing a mechanical wings design thanks to alien technology. Okay. Great. Right?

Yeah. Thank you. What else do you need to say about Spider-Man? I feel like Spider-Man is going to be related to your number one. Well, I had to rewatch. Not had to. It was on the plane and I rewatched it because I loved it. But it took me three times watching that movie to figure out how the drones worked.

How did they? Well, do you know how they work? No, not how they work. But like, I was so confused the first time watching it. Like, I don't know. It was like same. It was like a visual thing, but then it also destroyed things. So that took me a long time.

I finally understood. Oh, you mean in terms of projecting? Yeah. I didn't get that at all. It is confusing. Yeah, it is confusing. I sort of tuned out during that. I have a couple more questions.

So you saw, how many times did you see it in theaters? I saw it twice in theaters. Okay. Is that usual? Like, will you go back and repeat movies that you really like in the theaters? Only Marvel movies,

to be honest. Yeah. Interesting. I guess the stats bear that out. Can we have a Marvel movies conversation? Yeah. So I don't want to get too bad questiony with you again, but we talk about Marvel movies on this show all the time.

And there are a lot of people in the movie industry who are distressed, who are concerned about the fact that we may only have Marvel movies in the future. Now your favorite movies, I think it's fair to say, are Marvel movies. Yeah. But are you concerned that we might have a world in which you only get Marvel movies in the future. Now, your favorite movies, I think it's fair to say, are Marvel movies. Yeah.

But are you concerned that we might have a world in which you only get those movies, or would that be great for you? I feel like it'd come played out after a while. It would. There would be too many. I love Marvel movies 100%. If there is only Marvel movies, you need some variation. There we go.

Does that mean DC movies, or you mean movies with humans that don't have superpowers? Yeah, movies with humans that don't have superpowers. Okay. Do you want to recommend something to Grace that maybe she hasn't seen? No, I was going to ask. We asked you to prepare three movies, so this is very unfair. And if you don't have a list off the top of your head, but like, are there any, like, what are the types of non-superhero movies that you do like? They don't have to be amazing, but just kind of what are you watching?

I know. I know what you're watching. What am I watching? You're watching Supernatural. Oh, I love Supernatural. The one note I got, I got two notes from Grace before this trip. I'm sorry. She came to visit us.

They were, one was, can you please tape Supernatural for me so we can watch it at home? Which you've seen like 500 episodes of Supernatural twice. And the other one was um i just can you get me goldfish to eat in the house yeah both of which i just and i asked you again if you if you recorded it yes yes it's almost like you guys are related i did record it and we have similarly organized minds okay so you're not watching you're not watching like um you're not going to be watching the irishman on netflix for example i have no idea what that is do you use netflix i mean i was asking you this a little bit before yeah i actually watched supernatural on the plane today not gonna lie okay but i watched

great i watched a lot of tv shows on netflix not a ton of netflix originals like i think the only netflix original i watch is stranger things okay. Okay. Yeah. And I watched Living With Yourself by Paul Rudd, like not by Paul Rudd, with Paul Rudd. Yeah. That wasn't super great. That was just kind of like a quick show, just like, oh, this was nice, but. So was it possible that you got into that show or gave that show a chance just because you were like, I like A-Man, I know about Paul Rudd. And so it's going to lead me to other things that I might like because I like this guy. I just wanted to watch it because Paul Rudd was in it. I didn't expect anything else. I was just like, I like Paul Rudd.

I'm going to watch this show. Okay, so I feel like that is maybe an unspoken part of loving Marvel movies is maybe you'll seek out, there's a movie coming out. Knives Out. I can't wait to watch that.

Yes! I'm so excited for that. It was delightful. It's really good. Oh my God, I want to see it so bad. We both saw it. We both flipped for it. I want to see it so bad.

It's really great um is doing everything that you want chris evans to do in that movie have you gone back and looked at other chris evans movies yes i've seen a lot of his movies okay so what's his best non-marvel movie based on your experience um i don't know i didn't like the fantastic four that's like superhero movie um seen that one it's not good. What else? I really liked What's Your Number? Yes! I was hoping you would say

What's Your Number? I really liked that movie. I, so I'm gonna say I have a real personal relation to What's Your Number. I met my husband

outside a screening of What's Your Number which is very nice and I, except I wouldn't say that it gave me the best hope

for what a relationship should be. You know, I walked into something better than what's your number. I just want you to know that the lessons in that movie should not be applied to life. But Chris Evans as the really hot asshole neighbor is fantastic. Yes. Yeah. There we go.

Okay. It's time for you to do number one. Okay. You know what a number one is. Avengers Endgame. Yes. Oh, it is. 100%. Yes. I, there we go. Okay. It's time for you to do number one. Okay. You know what number one is. Avengers Endgame. Yes. Oh, it is. 100%.

Yes, I knew it. I was nervous it was going to be Joker. Oh, have you seen Joker? Yeah, my friend wanted me to say Joker, but I didn't. Was your friend a boy? You're your own person, Grace, and we respect you. Was your friend a boy? No.

Okay. All right. Just checking. Why did your friend want you to say joker she loved it okay but you didn't love it i liked it it was a little too dark at some points that i wasn't really expecting okay um it was definitely good like no doubt but i don't know i didn't love it it definitely wouldn't be one of my top three okay so end game, I love Endgame. I love Thanos. I talk about Thanos four times. I love Endgame. When you saw Infinity War, you sent me some photos of you crying a lot because you

thought you lost your boy Tom. You thought you lost Chris Pratt. You thought you lost a number of characters that you love. Did Endgame make you cry? I was crying the entire movie. The entire movie. Like, it was so bad. I couldn't stop. What was it that was making you so emotional?

Well, I knew it was the end of Robert Downey Jr. I had a feeling it was going to be Chris Evans. Surprisingly, not Chris Hemsworth. But I thought it was going to be the complete end. And just everything made me sad. Like, happy, sad, and sad. To be fair, it's a really sad movie. It is also operating from the perspective of this is the end for what?

How long is that movie? Two and a half hours? More. It's got to be almost three hours. Three hours. Yeah, and they're just... The beginning is very dark, and Chris Evans is in the support group, and just moping, and he looks great moping, but it's very sad. I feel like that's a normal emotional response. One thing I loved about it was like, it was a three hour movie and three hour movies are long.

That didn't feel long at all. Like when it was over, I was like, oh my God, it's over. Like, that's it. Like, I just didn't want it to be over. So they effectively marketed the movie to you, to me, to Amanda as the end. You know, the word end is in the title of the movie. But it's not really the end. No, it's just the end of an era, you know?

But is it really? Yeah. Like, the person who started it is gone now. The main, like, the first original, there's six of them. And three of them are gone. Wait, am I doing math right? Yeah, three of them are gone. Okay. Are you looking forward to Black Widow? I'm so excited for Black Widow. there's six of them and three of them are gone wait am I doing math right yeah three of them are gone okay

are you looking forward to Black Widow I'm so excited for Black Widow I don't know what they're doing but I'm really excited for it do you think they have to go back to the past to make it work

yeah I think they're gonna do it's like a prequel kind of thing I think they're gonna go into her past and you know in

Avengers when her and Clint are talking about like Clint is is Jeremy Renner. Hawkeye. I love that you call him Clint. That was the first thing that came to my head. Why can't I think of the place? I think it was like Budapest

or something. No, it's not Budapest. That sounds right, actually, but okay. Okay, well, if it is, I want them to go into that backstory because they mentioned it in two separate movies. I'd be interested in hearing about that. You're probably right. That's smart. That's pretty good. They also give tax cuts there. So that would be more likely. That's where they filmed Gemini Man.

That's right. For the same reason. And that's also where Will Smith did his In My Feelings challenge. That's true. Because he was filming Gemini Man there. Sorry that I know about tax cuts. No, it's okay. As far as the MCU going forward, we know we're getting Black Widow.

But then we're getting a bunch of movies with characters we've not heard of before. We're getting Shang-Chi. We're getting Eternals. we're getting all this new stuff. And Disney Plus coming out with all the new shows. So this episode, we're talking about Disney Plus because it's going to air the day that Disney Plus launches. The Marvel shows that we're not going to come probably until next year, it sounds like. Yeah, I think the Winter Soldier and Falcon one is coming next November. So of the ones that they have shared that they're going to do, which one are you most excited about?

Well, the Winter Soldier and Falcon and Loki. Okay, but not WandaVision. You don't care about WandaVision. I didn't really like their characters in the MCU, so. Shots. That's tough. Tough beat for Elizabeth Olsen. Yeah, I really liked her.

No, I like Elizabeth Olsen. It's just I didn't really love their characters. I thought Vision was super boring. Not going to lie. Sorry. Wow, you really like Vision? Is he important to you? He's not gonna lie sorry wow you really like vision is he important to you he's not important you've never really talked about him before he's his trojan horse for feelings you know what are we and what are we made of what is consciousness what is

humanism no okay okay i'm going over your head or under your head as it were what else anything else you're looking forward to any other movies this year you want to see other than Knives Out? I don't actually know. I can't think of any movies off the top of my head that are coming out soon. What about A Hidden Life, Terrence Malick's story of a conscientious objector during World War II? What? Correct answer. Amanda, any final questions for Grace Fennessy?

So I just want to ask about Tom Holland really quickly. Were you aware at all about the kerfuffle this summer when Tom Holland was like briefly not in the MCU? That was so scary. Okay, so that did make your radar. That was so scary. So that's not just old guys arguing in a room. That makes its way to you. And what were your feelings about it?

Well, I saw a lot of things on Twitter. I was like, this is just gonna be like a remake of like the Tobey Maguire movies. And honestly, I think that would have been such a waste, especially with like Tony Stark and the Avengers having such a key role in his life in the past movies. And just like erasing that, like you're not allowed to say it anymore. Like that just be so stupid. Did you? What could you do? Did you sign any petitions or did you email Tom Rothman at Sony to say, like, you have to get this fixed?

We need Spider-Man in the MCU. No, but I was just ranting about it to my family. I'm trying to figure out what our dad would say to you about that. What did he say? No, he doesn't give a shit. Well, that is my exact experience with these things throughout my whole life too. Grace, thank you so much for being here and sharing your truth. Oh, I'm glad.

Amanda, it's just me and you again. We're here to talk about The Big Race. Well, mama, look at me now. I'm a star. Amanda, The Big Race is going to be best song. This is rude. You added this in last minute. Best original song.

You really didn't let me prepare for this emotionally. And it's Monday. I was looking forward to a nice week. And now we got to talk about freaking Panic at the Disco doing Frozen 2. Amanda, you love music. I do. I love music. Yeah,. Okay. Can we celebrate this moment? Sure. But you know how I feel about this category, which is that it should not exist.

It's very bad. It is really bad. Is this the worst Oscars category? I mean, that's very complicated. We just talked about Best International Fe feature for a while that's not great um it just shouldn't exist because it's never it's always rewarding something that's tacked on to movie and the songs that are eligible for a best original song this year are evidence of just people you know awards grabbing right they're like we have a category where we can just hire someone to do a really cheesy assass song and play it during the credits. It has nothing to do with our story, with the art of filmmaking, or with music, frankly, if we're going to be really honest. But we just see an easy Oscar, and so we're going to do it. And I don't think that anyone is winning here. The reason I wanted to talk about this is because there was some news over the weekend

that the movie Cats is not going to be finished in time to qualify for a number of awards. So, for example, they will not be screening the film in time for the New York Film Critics Circle to get a look at it. The likelihood of the New York Film Critics Circle awarding Cats anything is nil. Go back and look at the winners of former New York film critic circles. It's just not going to happen. But it sounds like there's going to be even some tension running up against the Golden Globes deadlines,

which I guess is December 4th for the final voting. Right, because it's earlier this year. Yes. And so because of all of this compressed schedule we've got in Oscars in early February now, this movie is going to be up against the gun. There was also notably a story this weekend, which I thought was incredible,

about Clint Eastwood refusing to stop work despite there being fires in Burbank near the Warner lot, going into the office Saturday night and Sunday morning to finish editing on his film Richard Jewell. Presumably Tom Hooper is working at the same pace on Cats,

getting that picture lock going. There's going to be an original song in Cats written by Andrew Lloyd Webber. It's probably going to compete in this category. Is this the one written by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Taylor Swift? I think it's not. So they did a couple. I think they did a couple. I think this one is

performed by Jennifer Hudson. No, we don't know. We haven't seen the movie. This song's not available to be heard yet. I think it's called Beautiful Ghosts. Oh, God. Which is really not what you want. Is there a song more like Andrew Lloyd Webber's oeuvre than Beautiful Ghosts? No. What a fake Andrew Lloyd Webber name generator that is. I suppose that could summarize basically all of the musicals. Yes. Definitely Phantom of the Opera. Definitely Cats, I think, if I understand what Cats is about, though I really don't.

Miss Saigon. Yeah. Also Jesus Christ Superstar in a way. All of it. Not an Andrew Lloyd Webber guy. The contenders here are exactly as Amanda described. It's a bunch of songs that were written for a movie to compete for an Oscar.

There's maybe only two songs here that I would say authentically make sense inside the shape of the movie. For the most part, it's Disney stuff. So we've got Frozen 2, as you said, which of the movie. For the most part, it's Disney stuff. So we've got Frozen 2, as you said, which is the song called Into the Unknown,

which is performed in the film by Idina Menzel. By the way, if you're interested in Frozen 2, we're going to have a very fun Frozen 2 episode of the show coming later this month. Me and Amanda and Jason Gallagher. May I tell a Jason Gallagher anecdote related to this? So we asked, Jason Gallagher loves Frozen because he has a young son,

Isaac, great moviegoer. I actually would love for Isaac to review Frozen 2 for us. And loves the music and really advocated, I think, for us to take Frozen 2 seriously. And so we agreed to take it semi-seriously. And then like a day later, the Panic at the Disco cover of, I'm not even cover. I believe that Idina Menzel sends it in the song and then the credits version will be by Panic at the Disco. That's right. A song called Into the Unknown. It was released and it's maybe the worst thing I've ever heard.

Into the unknown. Into the unknown. Into the unknown Into the unknown I've only heard 15 seconds because I turned it off, but I was like, I can't believe this is happening. So anyway, I shared this with you and Jason Gallagher and then by like a happy turn of events, I put it in the Slack channel and then about 30 seconds later and Jason Gallagher, and then by like a happy turn of events, I put it in

the Slack channel, and then about 30 seconds later saw Jason Gallagher, and the look on Jason Gallagher's face as he had to listen to that song, he's having some regrets. It's hard to defend. Now, Panic! at the Disco, I think for the generation directly beneath us, is a big effing deal. Bobby, is it a big effing deal? Yeah, you got the devil horns on right now. It's a huge deal. Yes. So this is a band that people that are not us care about. I once saw this band open for 30 Seconds to Mars because I was writing something about Jared Leto.

And it was one of the worst shows I've ever seen in my life. I just, it's just not what you want. I do not want to see these guys at the Oscars. I'm just saying it right now. No panic at the disco at the Oscars. If they perform this, I will leave. For the length of the performance and maybe for the whole thing maybe the oscars show ends wow and panic at the disco

is fucking performing is that's the other thing at the end of all this we gotta listen to all these songs we gotta people are wasting time and money and musical credibility and then at the very end they make space for these idiots to perform the songs live at the Dolby Theater and waste everyone's time. We haven't even finished going through any of the other potential nominees. This is an abomination. Okay. Continue. Other potential nominees.

Beyonce. Yeah. Spirit for the Lion King. I mean, I love Beyonce. This is the other thing. This category exists just so the Oscars can have Beyonce on stage, which definitely Beyonce deserves to be on stage at any stage she wants to be on at any time. But, you know.

Is that true? That seems like it's overstating things. I actually don't think it is for Beyonce. Should she be on stage during peacekeeping negotiations at the UN? I think she would be great at it. She has a wonderful stage presence. That's probably her number one gift.

I'm not sure that spirit is what I want her doing if she's going to be on stage. Me either. But this is the same thing. They weren't even imaginative about it. They were just like, find out what Beyonce can do so that she can be at the Oscars. And they won. She will be. She will be at the Oscars. Another song that is, I guess, going to be competing is called I'm Standing With You. It's from the film Breakthrough, a film I have not seen. It's

sung by Chrissy Metz, who you may know as the star of This Is Us. And never heard this song. Don't know what this is. Didn't know Chrissy Metz was a singer. I guess I didn't either. Okay. Moving on. The aforementioned Cynthia Erivo has the closing big, you know,

spiritually uplifting anthem stand up at the end of Harriet. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. I want more for Cynthia Erivo. If you want to hear Cynthia Erivo sing in a movie, just rent Bad Times at the El Royale. Not an amazing movie, but features amazing singing performances from her.

Here's this next one. This is my one. This is my pick. This is my jam. Yeah. This is Glasgow, parentheses, No Place Like Home,

sung by Jesse Buckley and Wild Rose. Had to find my way Make my own mistakes But you know That I had to go Ain't no yellow brick road Running through Glasgow

But I found one that's stronger than stone Ain't no place like home Very lovely song. Amazing song. Did you see the movie? No, I haven't seen it yet. I know, you love this. Did you see the movie? No, I haven't seen it yet. I know, you love this movie.

You see the movie. Sure, yeah, and I understand because it's about a singer-songwriter. It's about an aspiring singer-songwriter, a woman in Scotland who loves country music. And all she wants to do is make it in Nashville. And this song, you know, I'm not spoiling anything to say, it arrives at the end of the movie. And it is amazing. It is like a showstopper. The movie is like pretty good.

It's okay. It's pretty formulaic, but this song performed at the end of the movie is unbelievable. It's like it is the reason for this category because the song makes perfect sense in the movie. It's probably not going to win. Probably won't even be nominated, knowing how this usually goes. It's a beautiful song, though. Great song. I would recommend not going to win. Probably won't even be nominated, knowing how this usually goes. It's a beautiful song, though.

Great song. I would recommend people check out Glasgow. We mentioned Jennifer Hudson. Here's a good song. I was a lonesome cowboy. Lonesome as I could be. This was nice. I liked this one.

This song is called The Ballad of the Lonesome Cowboy. It's from Toy Story 4. There are two different performances on the soundtrack, one by Chris Stapleton, the country artist, and one by Randy Newman. Randy Newman, of course, one of my all-time heroes. Chris Stapleton, great singer. Yeah.

Pretty good song. It's a little bit, as Toy Story songs go, like pretty down the middle, you know? It's earnest and cheery, and it's about taking care of each other. But I like it. Yeah, those are nice ideas. Okay.

Randy Newman has won in this category before. We'll see if he wins again. People have been citing Regina Spector's One Little Soldier from Bombshell. I just saw Bombshell last week, but I have no recollection of this song. This must be a credit sequence song as well. I'm afraid that it's actually the song

they keep using in Bombshell. Oh. Which, if someone's seen this and I'm incorrect, please correct me, but there was a music cue that's kind of... Like choral? Yes. Yeah. And I believe that that is Regina Spektor. It would make sense.

I hated that decision. So, I really, really, you know, I also like hated the Sufjan songs in Call Me By Your Name. I hate when pop music, new pop music, is trying to grab the stage from a movie. It's like another, I don't know. Interesting. Okay. I actually didn't mind that. But it takes you out of the movie.

Yeah. And it took me out of the movie. I get that. If that's the case, then that's interesting because it is suffused into the film, which is at least a little more credible. It is valid. Yeah. But it's, you know, is at least a little more credible. It is, it's like valid. Yeah. But it's almost used more like a score than a song.

I can't recall a single lyric. More of just like a bum, bum, bum. Like that kind of a thing. Naomi Scott's Speechless from Aladdin. I think this is a bad song. I hated this. Elton John's Never Too Late from The Lion King. I have no recollection of this song.

That's when you went to the bathroom. I think you came back. We should do a Sean goes to the bathroom segment maybe you came back during Spirit but I'm pretty sure I think it was Spirit

okay yeah and then I think Never Too Late was at the end okay I mean that just shouldn't win Elton John just

shit on the Lion King that's true do you know why I think he did that though because he wants to win for Rocketman that's exactly right the last song on list, and if we're forgetting anything, please give us a shout, but it looks like Elton John and Taron Egerton's I'm Gonna Love Me Again

from Rocketman, which I, man, I could really see this winning because they've been working the carpet hard. Taron Egerton is running for best original song. He is out here shaking hands despite the fact that this movie came out like seven months ago. And I don't think he has much of a chance in best actor, especially given how loaded that category is. But I do think he has a chance to be on stage with Elton John at the Oscars.

That would be fun. Who would be mad at that? I mean, it's best case for me in this terrible category. But again, it's kind of like, Elton John already has an Oscar, so. He does. Why are we doing this? I don't know. This is a weird category. But again, it's kind of like, Elton John already has an Oscar, so. He does. Why are we doing this?

I don't know. This is a weird category. Why can't there just be like a sick Metallica song on this list? You know? We're like, can't we get like a Warren G song in here? The Oscars needs to get their shit together. Remember that one year when Three Six Mafia won? That was entertaining.

Yeah. Eminem, he won an Oscar once. That was fine. Liked it when Adele won for Skyfall. That was very good. That was entertaining. Yeah. Eminem, he won an Oscar once. That was fine. Liked it when Adele won for Skyfall. That was very good. That was great. That's the only one. What are we going to do with Best Original Song?

How can we fix it? It's tough because I really think, you know, Shallow winning last year, also great. And also an example of this song made sense in the movie. But that means that you just can only do movie musicals or movies about music are eligible. And that's like a pretty narrow subset. It is, but those are often the best songs. I mean, the Jesse Buckley song, that is from a movie that is about a person trying to become a singer.

It feels way more naturalistic. The tacked on end credit sequence, that should be banned. Like that song should not be eligible. Yes. And like, here's the thing. Once you take take that away then this category doesn't really exist the other thing the last complaint that i have against original song is that it takes away from the attention away from score so we should just get rid of it so we can all start paying attention to score when do you want to start talking about score um maybe next week yeah Yeah. We're in charge. That is true.

I was just trying to think if there was a good peg, but, you know, a movie we haven't seen yet. Amanda, thank you for enduring this marathon episode with me. Sure thing.

Please stay tuned. Later this week, Amanda and I are going to be getting together with Chris Ryan to talk about our top five Matt Damon movies. We'll see you then. Now let's go to my conversation

with the writer-director Trey Edward Schultz. We'll be talking about his new movie, Waves. Absolutely delighted to be rejoined by Trey Edward Schultz. Trey, thanks for being here, man. An honor to be here. Thank you for having me. Trey, your new film is Waves.

It's your third feature. It seems like an incredibly personal story. I'm hoping you can kind of walk us through when this idea for a film kind of first hit you and then how it started to develop over time yeah um it was a long time i mean honestly i think initial first things were when i was in high school um and thinking about i didn't know what it was then it's just like music and and that age um and different images. But I didn't know, had no idea what that would connect or draw to something. But then it's become this thing that I've always had in the back of my head, you know, so it of our film and Tyler's story. And then halfway through there, the epiphany for sort of part two and the yin and yang and how the two halves make the whole and everything. But then still, I got to a phase two before the last movie where I started trying to write some things and I had nothing clicked or worked. I was just like, I don't know how to put any of this into a coherent story. Were those ideas that went into waves or were

they different kinds of movies? No, they were essentially what it is, at least spiritually, you know? And all this, you know, before that it was different kind of movies and stuff, I'd say, before like the structure really started locking into place. And then ultimately,

I think it was living some things in my life and getting on the other side of those things. I think meeting Kelvin, all of that sort of combined to where, uh, writing kind of started working after the last film. And it naturally was like, it felt like the best feeling in the world. Like it wasn't a heart because everything else I've written has been like, uh, a pretentious exorcism or something like, well, why do you say that?

I don't know it just uh anything i would write that i could like believe in it revolved around like three days of like crying and you know writing gibberish in a notebook and like everything stemmed from that um and then this was probably maybe a little more mature and just like a healthy it was it wasn't a sprint it was a marathon you know but it was like a pleasure like um doing it and then too it was very collaborative like i was having little therapy sessions with kel um as i was doing it because we were talking about this movie when we made the last one and it still didn't have a title it didn't have character names but it was broad strokes and he was gravitating towards, yeah, it became a very beautiful collaborative thing.

And deeply, deeply personal thing to myself. Most personal thing I've ever made myself and my loved ones. But then also grew out of that through that collaboration and the collaboration with the actors. So, it was amazing, man. It's interesting to hear you describe it that way, though, that it was more of a marathon. Because one of the reasons it worked so well for me is it feels just like an oncoming rush, a wave, you know, and it feels like, it feels like the kind of movie that in some ways was sort of written all in one shot, you know, because it's so clearly linear. And even though it's got this bifurcation that you put into the movie, I don't know. It

just, it feels like almost, um, a stream of consciousness, you know, jotting of feeling. And what, was there something that happened to you that led to realizing, you know, Taylor's character needs to be the back half of this story? Honestly, the pure structural idea, the epiphany happened probably five years ago or something. And that honestly, I've seen chunking express seeing that. And I mean, I love a lot of diptychs, um, and two part films, but, uh, I think another part of it was I knew cause I had a lot of Tyler's half figured out and stuff, but I was like, you can't end there. What's the point of just ending there? There has to be more to it. I know, but where's it go? And I had different ideas of where it could go. And then for whatever reason, seeing that unlocked this epiphany of,

it could be a brother and a sister. Um, and the sister could become the new heartbeat of the film. Um, but the, you know, at that point it was still the broad strokes, but I do remember that,

uh, that's too, why there's a, a Dinah Washington's what a difference a day makes in the movie. Yeah. I love that song, but also it's a little homage, I think, to Chung King. Oh, of course.

Yeah. So, yeah. And then just with time, too, I do think other big things happening in my life and forming a lot of things in the movie, but especially part two and where things go. I don't need you to tell me explicitly what those things are, but it's interesting to hear you frame the movie that way because Cretia is so personal to the point of using your family in the movie. And, you know, you've, you talked about how that was based on something that you experienced and that feels like one of the most intimate sort of terrifying real life experiences that

you can have put on screen. So when you're doing a story like this, a movie like this, and it's about things that are probably recognizable to people in your life, are you saying, hey, I'm using this or I'm interpreting what happened? Yeah, more or less. It's also, it's even more a conversation

like once I get through like a draft, you know, because like it morphs, what's it going to be? What's, but it's really like drawing on that stuff. And then, you know, um, for this probably more so with my girlfriend, um, uh, taking a lot of stuff and inspiration from our relationship stuff with her past. And then, uh, yeah. So just a sensitivity with that and be with creature was different, obviously. Cause it was like, we made the movie together. So, yeah, with this, it was a little bit of like, do we have the, I don't know, just the permission to go there with it, you know? But so do you?

I guess that's kind of an interesting, because every artist obviously pulls from their life. Yeah. But when you are making specific reference to something or something in a movie that feels really more kind of practical in a way depicting real life events. How do you get the sense that something is too far or too close or, you know, how do you measure how much you can do? It's a great question. Um, honestly, for me, I think it's just, uh, you, you feel it, you know what I mean? Like you can feel when it feels honest. And then it, I mean, I took things harder in the script. There was dialing, dialing stuff back, believe it or not. And, and calibrations. I mean, that stuff goes on through posts and the edit and everything, obviously too. But I would say it's just getting

back to trying to, um, get to the truth or whatever it is and like just conveying that, that moment or emotion, honestly, or if it just feels spiritually true, you know. And then you just navigate it like that. And then ultimately it's going by your gut and then the people you trust, their gut reactions too. And all talking about it, you know. How do you pitch a movie like this? What do you say? I can't pitch.

I can't pitch. I've never pitched anything. I just got very, like for this too. I didn't have to pitch anything. Like I sent the script right to A24. Well, first we got my producers and we were building a team and then it was like they were the only ones we showed it to. They were cool and we made it. How would I pitch it? I don't know, man. I don't know. It's family and life and highs and lows and everything in between. And, uh, I don't know. It's about love and forgiveness. Uh, but I don't know how I pitch anything in a practical, like, you know? Yeah. It's one of those things where I always ask myself, not just what would the elevator pitch be, but even like, what would the tagline on the poster be?

You know, what would you, how do you compel people to understand why something is important aside from saying this is important or this is important to me? I don't know. Good thing I don't have to do that. I guess. I guess that's partially my job. When did you actually start on this?

How soon after it comes at night? Basically right after, like actual writing and the script and everything clicking together was like a week. It feels like a week, maybe two weeks after the release. I was kind of depressed for a few weeks and then just went right into depression to feeling channeled all that energy into this.

Why did you feel depressed after? I felt it was a lot of things. I think a part of it was it was a difficult edit. It's a dark movie from a personal place i'm a weirdo i always edit alone at first so like half of that i was literally under a bed sheet editing like a maniac and hearing screams in my ears and everything and then past that i think also that it's a hidden it's a personal movie where the personal nature and stuff is kind of hidden in it if that makes sense so it was rough for me to make that and put

it out and then see, you know, you just scroll Twitter, like half of the people hate the movie, think it's terrible. Why it's not even scary. What's the point? What comes at night? I was like, oh, this isn't why I made this. I feel very misunderstood and just kind of sad and not good. Did you, so when we talked a couple of years ago, I had a sense like you were going to be the kind of filmmaker that would use genre as the Trojan horse to get the ideas across. And then this movie is not that this movie is like, these are the feelings and it's actually good to confront the feelings. Um, was, so was actually making this the next thing, a kind of reaction to the It Comes at Night

kind of confusion? I think so, probably. I think so. I think, too, this had been brewing forever. I had a strong feeling, too, of just like, is this the movie that's going to define me? Like, I have so much more, I don't know, there's so much more on my mind

and so much more I want to express. So screw it, I'm going to take a swing and try to express that and try to make something that no matter what happens, I'll be proud. And that it feels like as much of a, is where I am as a human being right now, I guess. That was another thing with that movie. I had written it way years before I made it and was in a totally different headspace than I was when I made it. And then it's just a weird journey, man, like making those things and putting them out in the world and you never know how it's going to go. I just came out on the other side kind of sad and not feeling healthy and happy. But this is, you know, I don't like the word brave in these

circumstances, but this is even more intense than that because it's more personal. And if people don't like it, it might hurt more. So what do you, you know, have you, did you consider that when you decided to do this? I guess I thought, I just, I don't know. I, I, the big thing that I felt is like, I want to put all everything I have into something kind of, and just go for it. And, um, if people don't like it, screw them. I don't know. That's all I can do, you know? So I just went for it and, and, and I wanted, I don't know. I just wanted to channel some positive energy and make something I loved with people I loved and, and build that up again.

Not that I didn't have that experience before with the last film, but yeah, I don't know. It's weird. How did you find the right people to be the characters in the movie? Very blessed. I mean, it all started with Kel. And that collaboration, everything grew out of there to where I think that was another thing. It was almost like Kelvin was the creature of this movie. And the sense of a part of it is this big personal thing and all these different layers. And then another part is just like wanting to work with someone I love and give them a great role and

build it with them. So there was that. And then I think that energy channeled to everything else, whether it was going after an actor like Sterling K Brown, where, you know, you're just sending like the script and a letter and like trying to get in touch to, um, going through auditions from like Tay and Lex and, um, uh, and meeting them and everything. I really just wanted to, you know, first it had to feel like people that were perfect for the roles and great actors and super talented. And then I just wanted to feel a spiritual connection to everyone, um, believe they're good human beings, but also you just feel it when you're with someone, you know, you feel the connection. So I wanted that. And then I wanted it to be a very collaborative process.

And we just followed that through and through. And it became, I mean, it was the best summer of my life making this movie. We had some incredibly hard nights and days, but overall I'm so nostalgic and I don't know if I'll ever top it. It was amazing. This is a very modern movie in a lot of ways.

I want to ask you about the music and the way that it's shot and framed but the sterling k brown part yeah it's like an old school 1970s like movie star come in and be the supporting guy role yeah it's a really like it's showy in the good way i love he's got a lot to do yeah he's got a lot to chew on yeah what what was it what was that first conversation with him like what did you guys talk about how did you make this character happen in that way well he's unbelievable in the movie thank you i agree man he's an incredible incredible man um honestly he loved the script and connected deep and it felt like everything

was there but a big thing was how would this central event be handled um because what we all talked about is a lot of responsibility with with that and with tyler's general trajectory like if you don't do that right and if he doesn't retain his humanity it could be a disservice um so that was a big thing and us just talking about that and then sterling had to meet cal and be like, is this white guy legit? Is he for real? Is this real collaboration? Is this real?

You know what I mean? It's like a fair question. Yeah. Amen. Absolutely. And that, I mean, to my recollection, that's where it all started from. And then it just grew from there. I'm trying to think back.

You know, we would talk about scenes, talk about moments. He would add stuff on the day to, whether it's just changing a sentence or something to, um, to something else. I don't know, but it was, it was amazing, man. And I felt too, it was like, especially Cal and, um, Sterling's chemistry from the top was just like, so perfect. Did you guys do anything to build chemistry or anti-chemistry among the characters? Like people living together? How did you make it feel like a family?

Honestly, it was interesting. The actual family unit never met in person until the night before shooting. No kidding. Church stuff, all the diner scenes. So they had to be a family the next day. We met at Le Tub, my favorite burger spot in South Florida and had burgers and Sterling sang Hamilton to Renee and all just talked, talked about everything. Before that, we were all doing talking separate and some people we'd have a chain, a text chain, and then some people would

call and it kind of fluctuated who was doing what with when and where. But then a lot of it was just like great actors with inherent chemistry. And then that just kept getting tighter and tighter as we were shooting. Tell me about the music. You mentioned that I think I probably had a similar relationship to music in high school. I got the vibe from it. Yes, very meaningful and very much the soundtrack of your life in the, in the most literal sense.

And you conflate songs with moments in your life. And, but the thing that is different is you're an adult man. Yes. And you're writing for kids. You're writing for 16 year olds, 17 year olds. It's true.

So maybe you can just walk me through some of the conception of this idea of like the music swarming the movie. Yeah. And then let's talk about some of the songs. Well, I will say I was just like you in high school and music was huge for it. Music was way bigger than movies for me at that time. Especially too, I went through a phase where I didn't even follow or care about movies. I was obsessed with wrestling and like music got me through a lot of

stuff. So that was always in the DNA. And it was also, I was so music hungry that everything was new. Music from a year, music from five years ago, 10 years ago, it was on the radio now. And I would search and everything was new. So I felt right there, it was a lot of creative liberties I could take with this soundtrack, kind of high school soundtrack film because I felt Ty and Emily would do the same kind of thing. So even if we have a lot of songs that are only a few years old,

those could have been either big moments for them then and that's why they're listening to it now or anything else. So ultimately, they're all my favorite songs. It's my favorite music, but I want it to feel honest to the characters and their world and hopefully just bring you closer to them. What were you listening to when you were in high school? Oof. When I was in high school, it was all sorts of things. Oof. Some things I don't listen to anymore. There's some Incubus and DMB and, uh, that was the time cold play,

but then it was also like, uh, Eminem. And, uh, of course, Kanye. And I don't think Cuddy wasn't coming out to until,

uh, until college for me, even though I dropped out. But, um, you use my favorite Cuddy song of all time in this movie. Really? That's your favorite.

Ooh, true story. I love it. That's literally probably my favorite song as well. And an incredible song. Love. Yeah. I profiled him around the time of that record

and had a lot of questions. He didn't have as many answers about the song as I wanted, but you know, that's sometimes how it is. That's okay. So what about, was it just sort of like, these are the songs that I like right now and I'm going to put these into this world? Or were you talking to, I don't know, Kelvin or Taylor?

How were you figuring out, I don't know, Kelvin or Taylor or, you know, how are you figuring out what would make sense here? For honestly picking the music, it really just started at a personal level. And it was also just really organic, like as I was writing and thinking about the structure of what could work where and when. And then it just, like we, I ended up embedding the music in the script so people could listen as they were reading. And it was just what felt emotionally right. And then if I, yeah, but it was open. Like if I felt out of touch or wrong on anything, like let's talk. We were basically just listening to music all summer while making this movie.

And some things changed from the script, but not a lot. It was pretty, probably 80% or 90% to like what the script was. I don't know. I just love music. I don't understand how you got the rights to all these songs. I'm so lucky.

So blessed. What'd you do? Have great music supervisors that connected us with the right people. And then it was just a lot of letters, writing letters to artists,

sending either the movie at different cuts or scenes or whatever, and just trying to get their attention. And really, honestly, though, I think a big part of it was I genuinely love every single track in there, and I'm trying to use it in a great way. So it was really just writing these letters and talking about what the movie means to me, what their song means to me, why I want to do it justice and use it well and use it in a way hopefully they'd be proud of. And then we just got really lucky and it all worked out. And we'd get great prices from some major artists. It was a time that it took some time and we didn't even have like the Kanye song. Yeah, man, we didn't have it Telluride in Toronto.

And we got after the fact. No kidding. Which is crazy. Yeah. It's hard to imagine that scene without that song. Yeah, exactly. That's why we tried replacing it. We tried.

It was not working. We tried for score Trenton Atticus. And they were like, we can't. We don't even want to try. We don't want to do it because like it's great with what it is. That's the DNA of what it is. Because it feels too, to me, like literally I think the music is playing in this truck,

you know, but also like, it just feels like it's coming out of Tyler in that moment. And that's, I know how that feels at that time. And like, it feels so right. So like when you go against the grain and try to, it was, it was a nightmare. That was one of the scariest things to try to do. So happy we got it did you get any no's um no really shockingly no every song yeah pretty much every song is purely creative i picked myself um and it all worked

out because this isn't a michael bay movie you know like exactly like budget is an issue and we're talking about and they had to that was we you know? Exactly. Like, budget is an issue, and we're talking about... And they had to... You know, we just... Like, some of these major artists giving us good deals on their stuff. It was like Giant Gamble. Didn't know if that would work. Were the songs in the script?

Yes. Okay, so they always say don't do that. But you didn't. I did a lot of things in the script you're not supposed to do. What else? Fonts would change with the emotion. It would get big and small and colors would come out. Music was embedded so you could play.

I would do like even at the takeover with the switch, it would be like and then black and then a totally empty page that then goes to like a paragraph of like seeing these colors and this rebirth and then like a new page starts and like starting with Taylor's face, talk about camera movement, aspect ratio changes, probably everything they wouldn't advise in a screenwriting class.

Obviously, structurally, it's like climax is halfway through and then we go a new place. So, yeah. It's amazing to hear that you literalized all those things though. Yeah.

Did people say, what the fuck are you doing, dude? i'm sure some did um we were very lucky and it might have just been who we showed it to but like everyone seemed to most people got it right away because it was all in service of trying to capture the spirit of the movie on the page and what it would feel like didn't do this at all with my last movie. Didn't talk about music, didn't talk about camera movement, all kind of intentionally too. But with this one, I just wanted to like double down

on the kind of approach I had on Crescia too and just try to get the unique spirit of the movie through the page for practical reasons. So it could be like, this is what we're making, but also just creative. So everyone we're showing, like this is as close as I know how to get the get the movie through to you in a script form that's really interesting i've never heard of anyone doing

something specifically like that obviously noodling with some of the format of a screenplay totally not uncommon but like i would buy and read screenplays as a kid growing up getting just being interested in it but have you considered possibly like selling this as like a digital document that you could like consume like while you're reading it you can listen. That'd be sweet. I don't think anyone

reads scripts anymore. I can send it to you. Don't they? I don't know. Maybe they don't. There's got to be like film kids and stuff. Well I just feel like

they're all free and they're all PDFs on the internet now. So you can just download them. But what you have is like sort of more of an art project. Essentially, yeah. And I got very, I don't know. It was really fun.

That was the most particular I'd ever been. It felt like a little, just the document of that felt like my little baby. It was like the closest thing to the movie and like every, I don't know. I just wanted like the formatting and the color and the font and everything to land in the right way. And it was really fun. really fun.

Really fun. What about Trent and Atticus? I feel like there's a sense that they are kind of the A number one composers right now working on film. How did you get them to come aboard? Again, very blessed. I got an email one day that Trent Reznor was a fan and wants to meet. And I immediately jumped on an airplane to go and meet him. He was a hero. He is a hero of mine. I remember too, like when I tore my shoulder in high school,

getting back into filmmaking, like just listening to Nine Inch Nails and filming weird stuff in my backyard. And so yeah. Was he pleased to hear about that? I think so. And I met him and Atticus and they were fans of the last two movies and wanted to work together. And I was like, I'm writing something right now. You might dig it. You want to check it out. And they did. And they dug it. And then we were like very matter of fact like that. But I got, as soon as I was with them, it's that energy.

Like it felt right. Like it doesn't feel, we're not here for a business meeting. Like these are two people I could hang out with and we vibe. As soon as I was with them, that energy, it felt right. We're not here for a business meeting. These are two people I could hang out with, and we vibe. So it just felt right. And then I was worried sending them a script with 30-something-plus songs embedded in it, and they're like, where the hell do we fit in in this? That's what I was going to ask you next, which is it's rare that a movie has this much music in it,

and then beyond the actual songs, you've got their music in it. So was that actually like an appealing challenge to them? You think it was, they said that too, like they were excited by that. And I think they dug the unorthodox nature of the script a lot and just like, um, yeah, they were excited by the challenge of navigating that, you know, and where does score fit in here and how do we use it differently and a little bit of trial and error in making it in that sense too. But it was an amazing experience. Given that you had this kind of complicated and specific document to work off of, was there anything when you started making the movie that actually didn't work the way that

you thought it was going to? Yeah, I'd say, I mean mean it's hard to say too because honestly at that stage it's like i don't we can throw everything out i don't care anymore is that how you are you're not super precious if it's just doesn't no not not precious at all but it is it's a lot it's it's the same for like creative with the actors and with the crew so like drew my dp and i we shot list everything to death, talk about it for days on end, everything to where it's like a second. We're so embedded with the visual approach and the arc of the story and how we're going to do it that we know it so well. Same with the actors, I think.

With Kel too, he'll analyze something to death and we'll be talking for three hours about the first 10 pages of the script and the color of Tyler's truck and everything. And so, and then it goes on with like, it feels like we all know the material so much and know what the goal is and what we're going after. But then when you're so embedded and understand it so much, you can, uh, throw it out and do something better if need be, whether that's literally just a practical curve ball, you know, cause that happens with movies like this, or it's being inspired on the day and finding something new. So it did, it just felt like a constant, creative, beautiful thing. And everyone always felt, it just felt like we were all in tune, all understood what we were making and how do we make it the best it can be. How many days was the shoot? 35 days. And we had over 50 locations and I shot enough for a four hour film. Wow.

So it was a lot. Difficult edit? Yes. Hardest edit of my life by far. I edited alone for seven months with a three and I had a three and a half hour movie to show for it. So then I brought on my boy Isaac and we reined it in together, which was hard. It was hard to rein it in and still make it a good movie. You know what I mean?

Because you can lose the spirit of something in that process. So that was another bit of trial and error of making it the best it can be without losing the spirit of what it is, if that makes sense. I know that all movies are in a state of pretend in terms of performances, but the stakes are very high emotionally and throughout the bulk of this movie. So when you're doing that for 35 days, is it hard to kind of get it up on day 26 to say like, you got to go to another level. You have to be as intense as you are on day 13. Yeah.

I mean, probably for them, but they wouldn't show it. Like I was almost, it was very rare to where like we weren't on take one of something. Whereas like, this is already sweet. Like, how do we make this better? So I felt incredibly blessed in that sense. And you got to think about though, there is a lot. There's a lot in the movie, a lot ranging tonally,

everything else in between. So it did feel like as heavy as the movie feels, it felt like we had heavy stuff, but then we had light fun stuff and it kind of balanced it out. Like it was the hardest thing, I think was a pivotal two things. One was recreating a real thing from my life that got the closest to ever doing something like that to where it felt it was like an all-consuming dread. It was terrifying and hard to do.

And I broke down. And that was nuts. in the movie that I don't want to spoil was very hard because we felt like Tay and Lex felt like they just wanted to make it as true and honest as possible and we couldn't leave that garage until we got there. And it was very, very hard. Very hard. Yeah, I can't totally imagine

when it's something that is so specific to your life to what it's like to put that and then to spend months cutting it over and over again and knowing what is the thing that may or may not have happened to me that I can cut out of this expression of a thing that has happened. It's hard. It's hard to kill the babies in that sense. Were you showing it to anybody else at that time, even after you brought on your friend to help you edit it? Or were you just like, not until I feel I'm done uh basically I had to show I had to show producers in 824 uh progress cuts as I was going so they knew I was actually working because I was alone on my laptop and in Florida so who knows what I

could actually be doing so I did have to show them work and process cuts along the way but besides that I almost didn't show anyone. And then the first people to see a full like three and a half hour cut were Calvin and my girlfriend. And we were like, I was still working technically, but we were like, let's just watch the first 15 minutes. That's it. And then we keep watching. We're like, just a little bit more, just a little before we know it, we're at the halfway point and we stop and we all like go in the kitchen and smoke and are like jazzed and talking about everything. They were like, okay, just a little more.

We got to see how. And then, yeah, it was really amazing. That was the close between like actually editing, putting stuff together for the first time. I think that's why I like to do it because it's so intimate that that's the closest I ever get as an audience member to it. And I latch on to that feeling I felt when I'm like crying like a baby alone editing or something or panicked or laughing or whatever I always latch on to that through the hard edit of seeing something a million gazillion times and still making it better and then that viewing with Ash and Kel that that was like the most fun I'd ever had watching anything but now yeah I can't watch it or anything you said that the movie in some some ways born out of this relationship that you've built with Kelvin working on these two movies.

But, you know, this is a story about a black family. Yeah. You're not a black guy. Yeah. So I assume you've deeply considered making this choice. But I think you're I'm sure you're being asked about this a lot. Like, what was it like to put yourself in that position? Did you feel prepared for the inherent criticism that will come with doing something like that in 2019?

Definitely. Yeah. It basically, it felt like a lot of responsibility, you know, just to do it right. And that's why, you know, I think my parents are therapists. That's not surprising to hear. Yeah, right. You know, and they. You're in touch. Yeah, man. And I think I learned a lot from them. And I learned, I hope, I think, I don't know, how to listen and really like, and that's what it's about. Because I made my first movie, as personal as my first movie was too, I wasn't making a movie about myself. I was making it about relatives we had lost. So we are still trying to understand them and channel that other spirit and all come together

and make this thing and trying as personal as it is to look outside of my point of view. Because I was really the kid in that movie. I wasn't our main character. So same thing for this and everything I've done. It's just been about listening and understanding and really being in tune and loving the people you're with to where hopefully you can build each other up and understand that. You know what I mean? So that's why I do think it was all about that collaboration and it was organic. It led that way and it started from such a deeply personal place that all of that kind of came together in an unorthodox way to where it felt right in all of that. You know what I mean? I think if it would have been any other way, I can't imagine that.

That's making sense. It is. If you hadn't formed this bond with Kelvin, do you think it could have been a story of a white family? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it would have been a very different movie, you know, because of that, because of that relationship. And, and, and I mean, it was kind of always Kelvin then. And that's when like, it really became Ty and it really became this family and those old therapy

sessions we were having and that collaboration that continued. So I don't, I mean, I don't know now that's what waves is. I don't know what it would have been if I didn't meet Kelvin. Maybe the movie wouldn't have even clicked into place in it because it didn't really until after I had met him and some other things. So, yeah. You have a kind of a back pocket secret weapon in the back half of the film and Lucas. Yeah. How did he become a part of this and it was another amazing like i just got a uh message one day that lucas is a fan and wants to meet and i had seen manchester and loved that film and thought he was fantastic in it so i was like dying to meet him and it was the same met and just inherent connection and chemistry like we just jive we got to do something together and i was

writing waves and I was like, maybe, maybe there's something in this. Um, yeah. And it worked out. Um, we, we, I, I remember I shared a lot of like, uh, ideas and everything I thought that waves was, cause I was in the middle of writing it and he connected hardcore and it was just, I think it was just meant to be, it was another meant to be thing, you know? He's really great. So there was a rumor going around for a while that this movie was a musical um I don't know how that got started I believe it was a casting leak when we were making the movie and then someone said probably said it's very music based and then that turned into musical

okay so it was inaccurate reporting from the top. I got intrigued by the idea of a Sterling K. Brown and Lucas Hedges musical. That sounds good. I saw, because like— I didn't even know Renee was in it at that time, but yeah. Yeah, man. And she, great addition to the music. We were putting the movie together in South Florida, and I'm online reading like,

whoa, musical with Lucas Hedges, Sterling K. Brown by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. Like, yeah, I want to see that. It's not what we're making, but I'd love to see it. But what's it like to have, especially when the thing you're doing is so personal, which we keep coming back to, sort of misreported, like fake news? Yeah. Do you have a desire to be like, no, no, no, no, it's not that? Yeah. You don't care?

I basically thought by the time this movie actually comes out, everyone will forget and it doesn't matter. So I don't know. It was like a little annoying. I also just thought it was funny. And I was imagining what that movie could be. So yeah, it was interesting. I was imagining that too and kind of thinking about what other,

if any other genres or styles you would want to play in, given that this is such a like i said such a straightforward telling of something have you figured out where you're going to go next what you want to do no idea where i'm going to go next and it does i kind of feel like a blank slate and like the end of a chapter because i put sort of everything that i currently have into this um and yeah i have no idea i have like figurative idea like i want to do something that's you know i like a lot of like i i think like contemporary silent films you know movies that function with visual storytelling from like under the skin to mad max you know like

so i love the idea of something like that but at the end of the day it just needs to be something i feel 100 in tune with and spiritually connected with otherwise what's the point of the day, it just needs to be something I feel 100% in tune with and spiritually connected with. Otherwise, what's the point of me making it? You know what I mean? What about the performance of waves? Like if people don't like it or it doesn't make money, what does that tell you about the experience? Because many people will say, I made what I made and I'm proud of it and I love it and it is what it is and I'm done with it yep

but you seem like a very feeling person I am a very feeling person and it must be strange to put so much of yourself on the line

without a doubt in a ultimately a commercial product without a doubt it's a very bizarre thing I don't I mean honestly

I think I'll just be sad for a bit you know like if people don't like I mean, honestly, I think I'll just be sad for a bit, you know? Like, if people don't like it and it doesn't click in any capacity, then you're just sad. All I know, I just, I put everything I had into it with people I love.

So ultimately, though, I do believe, like, I'm very, very proud of the movie and making it was truly no BS, like, best experience of my life so like no regrets but i'll be sad is there anything you haven't been able to say about the movie that is something that you feel like is you want to make understood oof um i don't know i felt like i got it yeah i watched it yeah i don. Yeah. But that's up to me and not up to you. Yeah.

So, like I said, when you're putting so much of yourself into it, do you sometimes worry that it's being misunderstood or it's not seen in the right way? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I guess I do want people to know how it was made. I think you can jump on to... I want people to know the unorthodox nature in which this was made you know i think you can jump on to i just want to i want people to know the unorthodox nature in which this was made and and the love and care from everyone involved

uh that i care about but then i'm also i don't know man like i'm just i guess it's a case-by-case scenario like talking to a person after they've seen it and whether connecting or not. So I don't know if there's a broad overreaching thing. I don't know. We have to do the bizarre ruse of a podcast where we don't give anything away. So it's impossible to talk about the specific details. Nevertheless, we're just making a show here. Trey, end of every episode of the show by asking filmmakers

what's the last great thing they've seen. Have you been seeing much? Yeah, the lighthouse yeah okay so you you returned the favor of your pal and colleague robert eggers no bs though i saw it in uh in toronto they have an imax screen for some of those showings so i saw the lighthouse in imax i mean it wasn't properly projected IMAX, but it was that DCP blown up to IMAX with some great speakers. And it was amazing. It was a time capsule to another world and the level and attention to detail in it and those performances, I just lost myself in it, which is, I think, an increasingly harder thing. The more you make movies and know about them and all that it's very hard to lose yourself and when you do it's i cherish those moments i like whichever it was phantom threat and call me by your name i was like transported you know and that's how i felt

with the lighthouse and like especially the attention level to detail personally i haven't seen done that well since like i think there will be blood one of my favorite films ever um but yeah i don't know i love rob i love, I think there will be blood, one of my favorite films ever. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I love Rob. I love that movie.

I could just talk all day. One bonus question before you go. Yes. If you can stop talking, I always enjoy talking to you. I do too. It's just because we've got to make this a reasonable thing for people to consume. Of course.

Uh, not a three and a half hour version. Well, maybe, maybe we'll, maybe we'll do that another time. Um, if you could program a double feature with waves.

Can't say Chungking Express. You already mentioned that. Give me another one. That's a tough call. Maybe Tree of Life. Wow. Yeah. Okay.

Maybe Tree of Life. Would you tell Terry that you did that? I don't know. I don't know if he'd be. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, it's one of my favorite movies of all time. So regardless that I had a itty bitty tiny capacity to work with it. Um, and it was just one of the most, uh, inspiring, um, religious like experiences I've ever had in a theater. Uh, and it felt like that movie,

the cosmic, uh, the cosmic and the intimate, you know, with the family versus like the entirety of the universe, like it's as big and as intimate as it gets. So I was just deeply, deeply inspired. I don't, I mean, you know, it's very different from waves, but, uh, I guess at least the way he was able to channel the a lot of personal stuff into this epic ambitious beautiful thing i think spiritually is sort of what i was trying it's very different film but like kind of what i was trying to do as well with waves a bit so maybe that um don't know what else there there's a lot that's a that's a great answer that I was inspired by wave. So it makes perfect sense. Trey, thanks for coming back, man.

Thank you, brother. Pleasure as always. Bye.