The Bill Simmons Podcast - 2021 Masters and 'WrestleMania 37' Overreactions With Kevin Clark and David Shoemaker

Episode Date: April 12, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin Clark to discuss the 2021 Masters Tournament (7:45) and the upcoming NFL draft (39:15). Then Bill talks with David Shoemaker immediately after the conclusion of 'WrestleMania 37'; they discuss the decision to split the event into two days, Bad Bunny’s excellent performance, a riveting match between Sasha Banks and Bianca Belair, Roman Reigns retaining his belt, and more (58:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG-Help.com. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com, as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. On TheRinger.com, Danny Kelly has been updating his NFL draft guide. I think we'll have another update coming pretty soon. And Kevin O'Connor has been messing around with his NBA draft guide. We're really, this is the height of draft time right now. We have this NFL draft.

We have the lottery coming up. We'll get to know who's picking where. Very excited for all that stuff. And then from a podcast standpoint, don't forget about New York, New York with John Jastrzemski. He is breaking down the crazy New York sports. And this is a really good year for New York sports. Already some upheaval with the Yanks.

Their pitching staff doesn't look like it's going to be, I think, what everybody thought. I am over the moon with the Yanks. Their pitching staff doesn't look like it's going to be, I think, what everybody thought. I am over the moon with the Red Sox. After I boycotted them last year from the Mookie Betts trade, which remains indefensible, I've been watching a lot of Red Sox. I really like this team. I've never wavered.

I love the over. I wish I'd had the balls to bet on them at 21 to win the AL East. They have good bats. They have good bullpen. They're winning close games. They have good chemistry already. People are hitting home runs and then they get wheeled across the dugout in what looks like a grocery cart. It's a team you can tell everybody likes each other. And baseball is a weird sport. You kind of know right away with your team, whether there's that weird intangible baseball chemistry dugout vibe, which you kind of need.

But I've been enjoying watching baseball. This weekend was awesome. We were talking to Kevin Clark about the Masters in a second. But Sunday, I had three TVs gone. One of my TVs isn't working, so I'm down to three. But I had Masters and the big TV. I had the Red Sox-Orioles game, which was just run after run after run. And J.D. Martinez, it looks like he's 1927 Babe Ruth right now. And then I had a Celtics-Nuggets game on the other TV

where it looked like typical Celtics game. They were getting their asses kicked. No fight at all. They fell behind by double figures again, which has happened over and over and over again this year. I'm too lazy to look this up, but they have trailed by 10 points in at least 25 games this year, maybe 30.

I would say the minimum is 25, but that looks like that game's over. And then all of a sudden they come roaring back in the fourth quarter. They have this huge run and they end up putting the game away. They win by double figures, but this Celtics team where over and over again,

just like when it looks like they have their team, somebody gets hurt, somebody goes out, they trade for Fournier. He fills in the six man minutes. Then all of a sudden he gets COVID and they just have not been able to keep everybody together. And it's also a team that,

as we've talked about before, it's pretty soft. Once again, Romeo Langford got crushed on a foul today. I think that the Celtics have absorbed a hundred flagrant fouls this year and maybe given out one. But this team, I keep wanting to quit on them mentally and just be like, all right, they don't have it this year. That's fine. I'm still going to watch. I'm still going to support them. I'm going to move on to other things in my life. But then you watch a game like today and you think, ah, Tatum, 53 against Minnesota the other night. Maybe he's not the two-way player he was last year, but there's signs of life somewhere here.

And then you look at the East and how the fourth seed is just wide, wide, wide open. And you look at a team like Brooklyn who can never seem to keep those three stars healthy at the same time. They get waxed by the Lakers. This is a weird season. You throw in all that. Then you throw in the Patriots, who we're going to talk about with Kevin Clark in a second, about are they going to trade for Garoppolo? Could they be trading up for Justin Fields?

Stuff like that. There's a little Boston sports optimism. I'm in a good mood. I had a good time today. Watched a lot of television. Pretended to be prepared for my podcast, but it was all stuff I would have done anyway. But I had a really good time. Sports, it's all coming back. I'm getting my second vaccine shot tomorrow. Allegedly, I'll have a podcast Tuesday. We'll see. We'll see what kind of shape I'm in. I've heard

varying reports on that. And me and Sean Fennessy and Chris Ryan were texting. We haven't done a rewatchables together in person since February, 2020. And I think all of us will have had the vaccines by the early beginning of May. And we're going to get together because we've been saving some pretty big movies. We're going to get together. We're going to get in a room together and we're going to do a big ass movie. We're going to do, there's probably like six big ass monster rewatchables left. And we're going to be doing one of those six. And I watched it last night with my son who had never seen it. And, uh, and I'm going to watch it two more times six. And I watched it last night with my son who had never seen it.

And I'm going to watch it two more times. I'm not telling you what the movie is, but the point is life is starting to feel a tiny bit more normal. The Masters happened on a normal day. WrestleMania has been happening. We're going to talk about that with David Shoemaker later. WrestleMania is happening right around the same time the Masters, baseball's going, basketball heading toward the playoffs. As usual, the sports schedule always gives a sense of stability to all this stuff. And then we had this Masters today where even though it wasn't the most exciting Masters, we did have something hugely influential happen. We had a Japanese golfer win the Masters. And I don't know what kind of impact that's going to have over there. And, and is that going to lead to a wave of people jumping on the bandwagon and, you know, a whole golf wave in the far East? We'll see. But that was pretty cool. It was

boring of a tournament as it was, which is people gacking left and right, which we're going to talk about with Kevin in a second. The big picture outcome was, was kind of neat. So good sports weekend. Hope, Hope you're all staying safe. Hope you're getting the vaccines out there. If you can, hope life will be getting back to normal pretty soon. And we're going to talk to Kevin Clark and David Shoemaker next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast. It is 4.15 Pacific time.

The Masters just ended. Kevin Clark is here. We're going to talk golf. We're going to talk golf. We're going to talk football. Danny Willett won in 2016. Spieth won the year before. Since then, Garcia, 2017. Reid, 2018.

Tiger, 2019. DJ, five months ago. And then this year, Hideki wins it. This feels like the least memorable Masters we're going to have the last five years. Let's start there. Do you agree, Kevin? So a bunch of guys go out early

or get out of contention early. Rory was an absolute no-show. DJ, I guess we were throwing all the data away from the November Masters because it was such different conditions. DJ just decided not to show up this weekend. Kepka looked like he might be battling through some injuries early, but was able to overcome it.

That didn't last for two full days. And so by the time Sunday morning certainly rolled around, most of the major winners or the guys we consider to be kind of major contenders were out. And so it was kind of a golf dork's paradise. Like Hideki Matsuyama is known as one of the best ball strikers in the sport. He just couldn't putt. Uh, he was able to putt and he was able to ball strike his way out of it. And he won, uh, Xander Shoffley's no same deal.

Like if you look at the advanced stats, he's, he's amazing. Uh, Will Zalatouris has been a golf dorks kind of, uh, dream boat for, for a year and a half. and we saw his coming out party. So this was for the diehards, I guess you could say. Well, and then Spieth, who I think has emerged as the under 30, I hope this guy that turns it around doesn't go into some sort of tailspin. I hope he's not Derrick Rose,

like all that stuff. And he was lingering. And by the way, if he had shot a 67 today, we would have had a playoff. The problem with what happened today and why I think we'll end up not really remembering it other than Matsuyama winning the masters is just that nobody really had a great moment. The closest was Jon Rahm, who, you know, he ends up parring 13, which is the par five where he needed at least a birdie that hole, but he has the talent to Eagle it.

He was kind of lingering there and CBS wasn't showing him. I was hoping it might be him, but nobody had that amazing run. Rom came the closest. Rom was minus six today, but I couldn't tell whether it was just sometimes it's in the air. Everybody gets a little tight, you know, and you could feel it today. I thought everybody got tight. The closest not getting tight was Zalatoris, but he couldn't make a freaking putt.

How many 15-footers did he miss? Yeah, I think Zalatoris is really interesting to me because I did a deep dive on him last night. I've known about him for a long time, and I think that there's a couple of things I understand about Zalatoris. First of all, the fact that he doesn't have his tour card is a bit of a misnomer.

It's not like he's some underdog story. He was actually favored in one of the PGA tournaments last fall because he was so good. Obviously, he had the top 10 at wing foot. He's really freaking good. And he has an approach that he calls kind of money ball for golf in the sense that he's a big data guy.

He's basically a less annoying Bryson DeChambeau, but he has a size 28 waist instead of going beefy. But as far as the data, as far as the analytics, like I like the way he plays and I think he's going to be in a lot more of these. Uh, but you know, there's a reason I like to short debutantes at,

at, and everybody, that's not me. I didn't invent this. Most people like experience at Augusta. And I just liked his approach in the first four times he played a master's. And I think he's going to have a bunch of these. And I think at some point, you know, the know the greens that kind of stuff you need a little

couple a little bit of experience to shake that out but i thought he was amazing this weekend me too and we were joking we went on locker room a couple times on thursday and on saturday after round one round three and we were joking about which announcer was going to mistakenly call him clitoris and does he need a nickname and then I came up with the Z spot for him. Sure. Which I think has a chance to stick. I thought the Z spot, he hung around. He got at least, you know, it wasn't a playoff,

but at least this is a moral victory. He got to warm up after he finished the 18, the just-in-case warm-up shots, which I think is nice. You want to at least get to the just-in-case warm-up shots, which I think is, is nice. You, you want to at least get to the, just in case warmup shots, right? I love that. I love that. Yeah. Just total projecting total confidence. He was going to get there. Um, no, I think that that was what you do. And I, again, I think with, with Zalatoris in particular, um, I think that there's kind of a, another cut of, of young golfers who we probably don't talk about enough.

And I kind of think that with this weekend, there might be a little more talk about that. And so I really like Sal Torres. We talked about him on Locker Room. We think maybe he could use a rebrand to stick out. Any thoughts on that after watching him on Sunday? Yeah, with some sort of facial hair. We talked about a possible mustache.

Could either grow the beard or maybe he's too young to grow the kind of beard like how Steph Curry couldn't have grown the beard he has now when he was 24. And now I think the beard has really helped Steph make himself a little more rough and tumble. Maybe you go with the fake beard. Maybe do the Harrison Ford fugitive. Just paste the fake beard on your face. But I think he needs to have more of a Rucker Hauer 80s villain kind of vibe instead of this good guy, rich kid from Texas vibe, right? What about tattoo sleeves?

Or one tattoo sleeve? So you're saying the Roman Reigns one arm, all tattoos? We're ready for that. We're ready for that, yeah. Did you like the Tony Romo friendship angle? Yeah. Well, we were texting about this all day, and you're convinced that he might have more money than Bruce Wayne.

Like he might live in a mansion with a back cave. There were just a couple of things. First of all, he was playing with Jordan Spieth when he was nine. He's a longtime friend of Tony Romo. He's in that club. I don't know what the club is called. He played. There was a throwaway reference to the fact that he played

Augusta on a quote fun college trip with buddies yeah I don't understand yeah how much does that cost that's like he flew to Mars with some buddies and then we looked it up and

he moved to Texas because his dad was renovating a mall there and I'm just saying there might be an interesting backstory as to why... And listen, I think some of this probably... It probably helps to be playing when you're nine years old, Jordan Spieth.

It probably helps to get all this advice from Tony Romo. Part of that helps. If you're playing Augusta as a quote-unquote front-fund buddy strip, there probably is somewhere in there a 10,000-hour theory where you're trying to kind of

getting reps on a big stage and nothing. You know, I know it's a cliche, but nothing seems to be too big for you. I'm sure that helps you be 24 years old and playing on Sunday at the Masters and having this steely demeanor. I don't think it's all the big data approach. You know, he does say because of the data, he's comfortable sitting over every shot. Basically, we saw that. But I do think he's just got a different demeanor than most guys

because maybe he's done a lot of cool stuff and this is just another wrinkle. You did some good internet sleuthing, I thought, during the weekend on our text thread. And I thought one of the things, one article you found, and you just mentioned it, he moved to Texas because his dad took over this mall development and he says it casually in the, in the article. But meanwhile, it was just kind of a rich guy

thing to put in there. So I'm with you. I, I, I think there's a possibility that he's had a lot of experience and hence a lot of calmness. Cause he's been in a lot of situations over the years, most important, um, very close friends with my agent, Babydoll's daughter. Babydoll, who's been on this pod many times and who was the reason that Matt James, the Batra, came on because Matt James was also friends with Babydoll's daughter. So now we're starting to wonder, like, who's next? Who is next to be kissed by the touch of Babydoll?

Zal Taurus, he won $1.2 million today, it looks like. He doesn't need it. Maybe he could update some stuff in his Bruce Wayne Batcave. Maybe he could get a new Batmobile or a new rocket ship. I think he was a big winner. Then, obviously, Matsuyama, who I think

had this tag, that incredible ball striker, he's going to choke when it matters. Meanwhile, he's like, what? He's going to choke when it matters. Meanwhile, he's like, what? He's not even 30 yet. And this was the first time he put it all together. With that said,

he didn't even shoot par today. It's just, nobody made a run at him. Well, that's what happens when you shoot one of the best rounds of ball striking I've ever seen on Saturday after the rain delay. I thought putting is the easiest thing to fix. Like if you've ever golfed,

it's just very simple. And when I saw him warming up on the feed this morning, and he's got like five dudes watching him putt and telling him what to do, and they've got the strings out there and stuff. And Fado, I think it was, said he worked with a guy named the Putt Doctor. I'm not sure if that was good or bad.

That was either a red flag or a green light. I'm not really sure what that was. But it's the easiest thing to fix. He was 166th in putting coming into this weekend this year. He's never been good in any year at putting, but he can hit the crap out of the ball. And when you have that, there's only, and Corey Connors is another one of those guys who competed this week with the same kind of problem. And Augusta's greens are so fast and so hard to reckon with that. I mean, at some point, not thinking about it is the best way to go.

And so the fact that he was hitting the ball so well on Saturday, he talked a little bit about how the rain was allowed him to put some spin on some balls that he wouldn't normally have. So rain saved them a couple of times where he overhits shots. The timing part of it.

Yeah. And the timing part of it. I'm like, that was a huge what if in the tournament. So I knew at some point there'd be a Matsuyama breakout just because he hits it really well. I mean, if you look at the stats, he's one of the most consistent ball strikers and approach shot guys in the sport. And I just thought everyone who kind of bets on this from week to week knew that if he hits his putts, he wins. And he doesn't hit his putts very often. But this was the week.

It's him. It was Cantley and Shoffley who were the two guys I had. I ended up going one for two with that. The thing with Matsuyama, when you win the Masters, it's usually because you either had an awesome round

or an awesome stretch where it's just like, wow. And usually that happens on the fourth round. For him, it happened yesterday post-rain delay. What was he? Minus six in the last eight holes, something like that? And he just was lights out. And that was the best, other than Justin Rose on Thursday, that was the best stretch of golf we saw anyone play.

And that really ended up winning in the Masters because Zalatoris couldn't get there. Spieth couldn't get there. You're going down the line none of the guys except Rom were able to put up the minus five minus six that we needed everybody else it was always like oh this guy might have no

and the announcers could feel it because they started there's this announcer panic that sets in with big events big games fourth round of the Masters fourth round of the tournament where they start like wishfully thinking,

well, maybe that'll get him going. It's like, no, that guy's six back and he's got seven holes left. It's not, he's not going to win the tournament, guys.

This is, this is a wrap unless Matsuyama completely chokes. And the thing is, it felt like Matsuyama was going to choke there because he had two

terrible shots in a row on the hole that ended up birding. He hit that shot on 12 into the trap on the par three. And then he had that other bad one that skipped on 15 over the hole and into the water. And he was kind of dying for to, to, to, I don't want to say give this away, but at least to make this super nerve wracking, nobody could pull it off. Well, Xander had a shot and he couldn't get. And we'll get to Zander later, I'm sure. I do want to say with Matsuyama in particular,

I did a bit of a deep dive on him on Saturday. And it was interesting. First of all, his interpreter, Bob Turner, basically does all the press conference. He's also his agent, by the way. And there's just not a lot about him. Like every profile talks about how he's just kind of a golf dork. Loves sake. That's a big one. They asked profile talks about how he was just kind of a golf dork. Love sake.

That's a big one. They asked him what his favorite thing was during the layoff last year. And he just said, he just drank a bunch of sake. Sake is fantastic. It is. It is fantastic. I totally back him on that. I wish I understood which vintages to order whenever I I'm out at a restaurant that has

it, but it does like, if you hit the right sake, it's really magical. And also you get kind of, kind of tipsy. I gotta say like, it's really magical. And also, you get kind of tipsy. I got to say, it's got to be like you're taking Ubers when you have the sake. Yeah. No, I also thought, I did think, I wish Xander was in the hunt more so we could learn more and get Xander's dad on the national stage. Yeah. So can you tell that story?

Because this is another. I got to say, I thought you did an incredible job of internet sleuthing this weekend. I think you're at the top stage. Yeah. Can you, so can you tell that story? Cause this is another, I thought, I got to say, I thought you did an incredible job of internet sleuthing this weekend. I think you're at the top of your game. I don't know if this is sleuthing. Cause it's, it's for a lot of golf fans. This is one of the first things that come up,

comes up when you talk about Xander Shoffley, but his dad is an interesting character was his coach. I believe someone wrote him this morning, wrote a piece about him this morning. And he said that his nickname is the ogre, constantly chomping on a cigar. He and his dad gave a podcast interview. They did it together on the 4PlayPod last year, I think. And they talked about how his dad would just throw second place trophies in the trash. That was a big thing. And then if it was like, God forbid, it was like an 11th place trophy that went right in the trash.

They would make fun of the ribbons. He would look at the other parents and judge. He sounds like an amazing character who needs to be, who we need more front and center at these tournaments. He sounds like a, a, a guy we need to cut to when things happen in Xander's career. Like if we're going to get to Gretzky's daughter

every time DJ's in the hunt, we could probably cut to the ogre. I would think. I was hoping Xander shows him the third place trophy he got today and his dad smashes it over the car like Kreese in the beginning of Karate Kid 2. Like just, this isn't good enough.

Breaks it, makes him cry. I listened to a lot of Xander interviews over the last couple weeks. First of all, they talk about how they get into it at the range a lot, like father and son just arguing over different shots. But in Xander's competitiveness in general, I'm surprised he's not

more of a killer out on the course. One of the reasons he plays golf is because he couldn't play team sports because he just hated the idea of losing and not being in control of that. He actually said, and you'll like this, he can't play unless he's gambling. He doesn't like playing without gambling. He needs that edge. And so every time you listen to him or read about him, he seems like he should be a closer. And I'm surprised that hasn't manifested itself at this point. He might want it too badly. Well, the two biggest triple bogeys of the week that you just

felt single-handedly sunk each golfer was first JT. JT had a little momentum. He's got the little layup on 15 and shanks it. And instead of potentially birdie or whatever, it's

like a four-shot swing and he's just out. And it was at a point in the tournament when it felt like he might have some momentum and potentially make a run. And then today, Xander, four straight birdies. It really feels like he's grabbed the tournament by the balls a little bit and that Matsuyama's feeling him. Matsuyama's not hitting

the same kind of shots. And then Xander just, you could see it before he hit the drive. He was kind of over it and you could see he had that kind of look of, I don't know if this is the right club, the wind starting to act weird. What do I do? And he just kind of scuffed it. And that was it.

I think Zander Shopey is really good. And he has what? One, two, three. He has six top tens at majors. He's going to win one at some point. I think Matsuyama was just too good. And I think that obviously because of the looming threat that his putter was going to break

down, there was always the thought that he was going to let people back in this. But on Saturday, the ball striking was just so good that it rendered everything irrelevant. He just had too big of a lead on Sunday, I think. And you know, four-stroke leads have been relinquished at Augusta. We saw Rory do it in 2011, something like that. But I don't know. I was not surprised Matsuyama closed this one out.

The announcers really couldn't think of anything to say about him other than in 2011, he played the Masters. And wow, it's going to be crazy back in Japan. This is going to really lead to something. They was really, they almost needed an expert to come in and give us three things we didn't know about him. Because guess what? Watching, I remember that he was in the 2011 Masters and I probably could have surmised on my own that this was going to be a pretty big deal in Japan. When they cut to the Tokyo feed a couple of times, I thought that was more exciting than really any part of the master's feed, except when they threw to Vern Lundquist in 16. And sadly, what a career, hall of famer, amazing,

iconic master's announcer. But Vern really struggled this weekend. And unfortunately, 16 is a race car and you need an experienced driver on 16 who can drive the car. And I didn't feel like Vern was doing that. I'm sorry, Vern. It happens to everyone. It happens to every great announcer. Kevin's terrified to say anything right now. I can see in his face.

No, I will say that golf, from a narrative perspective, is dominated by a handful of guys right now. Bryson DeChambeau is probably number one. We're taking Tiger out of this as far as the competition this weekend goes. Smart idea. Rory McIlroy, Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka. And I kind of think that you're, I think all broadcasts, all golf broadcasts are kind of caught flat footed when it's Justin Rose.

And, you know, we talked about this on Saturday, but I had my second shot on Friday and I couldn't tell if I was drowsy on Saturday because of the shot or because of Justin Rose. It was probably both. I still don't know. It's 50-50. I still don't know. All respect to Justin Rose.

We went over this. He's done great things for the women's game. Great guy. I don't want to watch him play golf very much. That's where I'm at on Justin Rose. You were even harsher on Justin Rose. Well, here's the thing. where I'm at on Justin Rose. Um, you were even harsher on Justin Rose. Well,

here's the thing by, by after four straight days of Justin Rose, I actually felt like, I don't know if there was some Stockholm syndrome going on, but I actually felt like he was winning me over when he hit that. You're a huge fan on 18. I was kind of excited for him. It was like, seems like a good guy.

Very supportive of his partners, partners, seeing the let go. But I might've misfired at Justin Rose. I am. Vern Longquist has built up so much goodwill for me, uh, as a,

as a aficionado of, of the SEC on CBS and the masters and all that stuff that I am. Uh, I, I'm, this is a pro Vern Longquist podcast in my mind. Listen, this happens sometimes and it always hurts.

It hurt when it happened to, uh, Dick Enberg, one of my all time favorites. It hurt when it happened to Dick Enberg, one of my all-time favorites. It hurt when it happened to Ned Martin, Red Sox announcer when I was growing up. It's going to hurt when it happens to Al Michaels. I don't feel like he's gotten to that point yet, but it will at some point. With the announcers, when they hit the mid-late 70s, it starts going too fast for them. The funny thing is golf is not a fast sport. You have plenty of time to think about what you're saying.

So if it's happening in golf, you know, uh, you know, you're in a lot of trouble, but yeah, we had, uh, the 16 usually is this site of a couple. Oh my God. Whoa. What am I? And it was the opposite. This, this round, this tournament, the 16 was where horror happened, which isn't how I want my 16 to happen.

What do you, wait, what's, what, what was your ideal? Like if you could have just taken a machine, you know, whatever Deus Ex Machina, just lorded over 16 and said, here's what's going to happen. What would have happened for you? Great question. Um, so where'd Spieth end up? Minus seven? Yeah. I think Spieth, Spieth end up? Minus seven? I think Spieth either almost holing it on 16 today or putting it within a foot of the hole but giving us some sort of Spieth boner right as it was like the

it felt like Matsuyama was starting to fade and it felt like minus nine might actually win the tournament. That would have been, I think, the most exciting 16th hole moment of the weekend. I saw a take today. I want to talk about Spieth here for a second because I saw a take today that would have been, I think, the most exciting 16th hole moment of the weekend. But it didn't happen. I want to talk about Spieth here for a second because I saw a take today from Kevin Van Valkenburg of ESPN

that I found fascinating and I think it's worth exploring. He has Spieth going forward and maybe the last couple of years as the American Seve. In as much that it's always going to be a wild ride. The driver is going to be a mess,

but there's going to be magic. And one of the things about Augusta is there has to be magic. That's the problem with Bryson DeChambeau. Everyone comes in with Bryson. They say, oh, he drank a bunch of protein shakes. We got to change the game, right? Sports gone because he drank a bunch of protein shakes

and bought a Trackman. And with Spieth, there's just a sense in some of these shots, like you saw it from the woods yesterday, that he can make anything happen at any time. And there's limits to that, because if you can't bomb in the modern game like Spieth can, there's a ceiling on you.

But I kind of feel like going forward, and maybe because Spieth is a little more reserved, he doesn't have the attitude of Seve, but the way he plays, anything can happen at any time. And that's what I think is interesting about Spieth now that he is back to being decent, is the way he plays is... It's such a rollercoaster

that it's just absolutely fascinating. You never know. He's a good self-mutterer. Oh, great. You get to hear his inner monologue a lot. Yeah, I think he's probably the best one at just talking to himself and you feel like you're kind of playing with him a little bit.

On the weekend, how many shots? He was almost last in strokes gained off the tee coming into this tournament. And there were so many holes where I saw he would slice into the woods or at one point I think people were saying there's a delta like a spawn con thing that he hit

it into at one point this weekend. Like, there were so many holes where I said, okay, well, that's the end of Spieth. And he would grind out a par, grind out a birdie in some situations. I just think, I think Van Valkenburg's point is just really interesting. And I think that, again, you can only be so good when you're really bad off the tee. But if you can grind it out, if you have a little bit of that magic, good things will happen.

We're going to take a break and talk about Nance and then some NFL. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember.

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All right, so Nance, we were hoping for one of his classic pre-baked one-liners when Matsuyama won the Masters. I think he was scared off. He felt nervous to me the last 20 minutes. Cancel culture, I don't think Nance even wanted to go near anything. He kept kind of throwing it to Faldo. And then when Matsuyama hit the, first of all, he missed the par putt. He had the little two-footer coming back. He made it. He wins. And Nance basically

said, Hideki Matsuyama, the first Japanese golfer to win the Masters. I've never heard him put less thought, energy, creativity, anything into one of his calls. And it was a scared Jim Nance. Let's be honest. Okay. So let's put you in the booth.

What do you give us? So I had it. I had the savvy one. Key to the moment, in the booth. What do you give us? So I had it. I had the savvy one. Heat of the Moment, which was a song that won like five Grammys by a band called Asia in the 80s. I think Nance could have gone stealth

and done, it was the heat of the moment! Hideki Matsui is our Masters Champion! Something like that. And then it just would have been really underground. Nobody would have even gotten it. But he just played a chalk. And you know what? You just signed a new contract, Jim Nance.

We don't want to scare Jim Nance. Come up with some sort of line. Anything? Disappointing. So Joe House was hoping that Xander Shelf would win for a DMX reference. Right. X going to give it to you. Stuff like that.

That actually would have been fitting it did seem like there was some possible DMX X stuff parallel stuff happening some quick other stuff Tony Finau made a huge charge to keep his reputation as top 10 Tony tied with Cam Smith

were you surprised that Tom Brady FaceTimed Tony Finau are you surprised that Brady's associating himself with Tony Finau? I wonder if he's got him on the TB12. There's some sort of TB12 religionist sports angle with Finau. As always with Brady, I always feel like there's an auxiliary angle on that. So Finau ties Cam Smith. I made four bets for this Masters. I bet on Jon Rahm

10-1. I bet on Shoffley top five, which was plus 355. I bet on Cam Smith to finish in the top 10. That was also like plus 360. And that one hit because he tied with Finau. And then I bet on Patrick

Cantlay to make the top five. And I think he's still on the course. I think he's limping around with bolt holes. I don't know what happened to that dude. He shot like a 78, something like that on the first day. That was it for him. Not a great day for a crop of young American golfers. No.

And then we have Stuart Sink was kind of lingering at 47-year-old Stuart Sink. I guess the other interesting one is Patrick Reed, who was the villain we needed this weekend, but he just couldn't get his shit going. It was funny. They weren't showing him or Rom at all. I couldn't believe they weren't showing Rom

because Rom was on pace to shoot like a 63. Yeah. They started to show Rom, especially in the back nine. The Reed thing, a lot going on there. Number one, he's getting more and more obscure sponsors. You had... We've talked about how

you think more guys should just go heel. And kind of the downside to that is that you end up like Patrick Reed and you're just sponsored by a company called Grindworks on your hat. Grindworks on your hat. Grindworks? Yeah.

I don't even think I noticed that. I don't know what it is. My man Z Spot had Simmons Bank, which I felt like there was certain kinship. I was excited about that. Also, Reed had the indignity of wearing a shirt a couple weeks ago, and then the company was like,

we're actually not sponsoring Patrick Reed, but we're glad he's wearing our shirt. It's an actual tough scene for Patrick Reed and sponsorships right now. I do think there's an opportunity here for a Reed and Bryson DeChambeau pairing at the Ryder Cup that just pairs that negative energy

and channels it towards something good. I kind of feel like kind of the Bash Brothers situation. You know my feelings on DeChambeau, kind of the drives of Happy Gilmore and the vibes of Shooter McGavin, right? Like that's the whole thing with him. He does such cool things in an uncool way that the whole thing seems dorky. Like he should not be considered uncool. He is. Patrick Reed is uncool. We pair those guys together. We win the Ryder Cup. When DeChambeau plays the Masters, it gives me the same feeling as

being in college when you play intramurals and some of the offensive linemen would play in the game and they were simultaneously athletic and skilled, but they also would completely ruin the game. They were just things they basically missed about basic basketball.

There's a touch and a feel to Augusta that, you know, sometimes he can overpower. Like he eagled 13, I think today. I think he did today. But for the most part, there's so much nuance to the course. And it's just like the weakness in his game right now. A hundred percent. And the way he approaches it, golf is a game of failure. And he approaches it like it's a game of success.

So he comes out and says, well, I'm playing to par 67 at Augusta. Well, don't taunt the course like that, man. And just the way he reacts to the wind, he's yelling about the wind. It's like Augusta is a course of bad breaks. And how you reckon with those bad breaks is how you perform on the course. And I just, I'm getting a little, I am a Bryson DeChambeau defender in most cases, because I just think what he does is generally kind of cool. Uh,

just from driving at 350 yards, I'd like to be able to do that. But I, I just, I think he gets there and doesn't understand how to play it. And, and that's, that's why he was five over today for this weekend.

I, I also, uh, I also enjoyed DeChambeau and it's weird that he gets as much shit as he gets. I just think golf is one of those sports where if you're different at all, people just rebel. No, I think it goes beyond that. He's talking about

he didn't have his Green's books this weekend. He's like, oh, my calibration tools are gone. Last year, he's talking about frontal lobe fatigue. Just be a little calm down. So you're saying he's got a little... Just calm down. Just calm down. So you're saying he's got a little Dwight Howard in him?

A little bit of Dwight Howard. Or he just tries to make everything so scientific. And again, Zalatorris has the same sort of data approach. He just doesn't act like a tool when he's talking about it. And even this weekend when he slices a ball into the woods and he says, that is so far into Narnia. Man, what are you talking about? We need to have an emergency closed-door meeting with Bryson DeChambeau's best friends who tell him to just start

being 10% cooler on the golf course. This should not be hard. You drive the ball 350 yards, dude. You should be cool. I drive the ball 350 yards, dude. You should be cool. I thought the Z spot carried himself really cool considering he was a size 28 waist and not sure what would have happened with the Masters jacket with him.

I don't know how they would have even done it. But last Masters thought, I thought Dottie was the broadcast MVP. She's the best points, best vibe. She actually looks like she understands the course and everything that's happening in it. She understands the golfers. She raises points and intuitions.

I say this in a non-pandering way. I thought she was the biggest asset of anyone on the broadcast. Yeah, I thought it was, I thought she's, I think she's really good at her job. And I like golf on television more than a lot of

like golf dorks do. But I generally enjoyed it. Who was the one you like who wasn't on the real broadcast was on the internet broadcast? Yeah, we were talking about the internet broadcast. So they've got Shane Bacon, Colton

Host, who has a great podcast and like the, the, the, both those guys do, actually. But I really like the internet broadcast because it gives golf voices to people who wouldn't normally get on the broadcast. It's really hard to get on the CBS broadcast for good reason.

But to get the internet broadcast on there and new voices, I thought was kind of cool. Well, we had fun. We went on Locker Room yesterday, which Spotify recently bought, and we're just kind of cool. Well, we had fun. We went on Locker Room yesterday, which Spotify recently bought and we're just kind of messing around with it. But, you know, after round three, the opportunity to talk about round three,

talk about the angles, and you basically have eight hours and then the Masters is starting again. It's useless. It was actually kind of fun to go on there and talk about it. All right, let's flip to the NFL and the NFL draft. Here's my question for you. Multiple people in my life seem to believe that the Patriots, the apple of their eye is still Jimmy Garoppolo. be trading up if Fields was there but not giving up too many assets because Belichick, that's not

what he does. I think if you trade it up, Atlanta being the swing team where Atlanta kind of controls the draft in so many different ways. If they took Pitts, the tight end at four, if they took a QB, whatever they do is going to have this huge ripple effect.

And the Patriots, it makes probably just as much sense that they love Garoppolo to just trade for Garoppolo. They have the cap space for it. And yet there seems to be differing opinions on what that would cost. Because to me, it's like,

that seems like a second rounder, no brainer. You know, they have a second rounder, it's in the mid, so it'd be like, I don't know, around 50. I can't remember what number it is. And if you're the Niners, you're taking a bit of a cap hit, but you trade it up, you trade all this capital for number three, you probably want that guy to start right away. And yet some people seem to think they might think that pick is worth more than that. What have you heard and what do you think will happen on this front? So I really do believe the price tag is as high as it seems right now on Garoppolo,

which is they want a first and they want the plan right now really seems to be that they really do want to just see if Garoppolo should be their starter this year. And I would be slightly surprised and like so much of this is smokescreens, but I'd be slightly surprised if they dealt Garoppolo before training camp. Maybe the plan is to sort of do the Sam Bradford model where you say, okay, he's our starter, but then some team gets desperate and offers the Teddy Bridgewater replacement deal

for Sam Bradford. And all of a sudden, the Eagles have an extra first round pick, right? That trade right there, like set in motion a million things that basically, um, laid out the future of the NFC for, for three years. Um, so with Garoppolo in particular, I really do.

I mean, if you believe the people who are close to the 49ers, it does seem like it's going to be Mac Jones. And it does seem to be that there's going to be two quarterbacks this year. Um, so the Patriots, I don't think the, I don't don't think that the pipe dream of fields to the paths is going to happen unless they trade up significantly. Mike Canabal was on our podcast last week, and he said that he thinks that the Panthers would take fields if they dropped even with the Darnold trade the other day. And so that doesn't eliminate them from the quarterback market just because of how Tepper operates. So I would think that the Patriots are going to have to look elsewhere or pay up.

I really don't think they're going to be able to get Garoppolo for a second round pick in the next couple weeks. I really don't. Do you think it's like a second and like a fourth down the road? Also, who else are they bidding against on Garoppolo? I can't imagine there's another team. They're bidding on Garoppolo staying on the roster. I don't know if they want Mac Jones or whomever, Trey Lance, to start week one.

So you're convincing San Francisco to take a risk and start a rookie QB because you've overwhelmed them with this offer or else they're just staying put. From the tea leaves I've read, that's what I've heard. The plan really is to have

Garoppolo on the roster. The reports have been, whether that's from Niners, Beatwriters, or whomever, the reports that I've read are that they think they have a championship roster this year and that they think Garoppolo can be part of that. And so, again, I don't know.

I mean, I think that the whole thing comes down to why they made this trade. They invested three first round picks in the third overall pick. If the idea is to raise the ceiling and ends up being Mac Jones, then it's a real head scratcher. You know, the thing I've always heard about people close to Shanahan is that people who run that offense think anybody can do it, right? Any quarterback can do it. And so selling the farm to get a guy like Mac Jones, who doesn't raise the ceiling, seems like the antithesis of that belief. But Kyle Shanahan

knows a hell of a lot more than I do. So the whole thing is deeply strange. I don't understand how they could think they have championship potential if you're wasting the assets that they wasted, including a good first-round pick for somebody who's not going to play this year. But that's just not how it works. I totally agree with you. You need to check a lot of boxes

with your draft picks, free agents, the nucleus you have, staying healthy, and to just basically spend all that capital on somebody who's never going to play doesn't make sense to me if you're trying to compete. just basically spend all that capital on somebody who's never going to play. It doesn't make sense to me. If you're trying to compete. Let me play devil's advocate on that. And I understand the trade part, but the reason they were bad last year is because of the injuries, because basically they had a two week stretch where they played it at the new Meadowland stadium.

They lost half the roster. And I think that when that happens, you get in your brain that you can contend very easily once everybody gets healthy. And so I think that when that happens, you get in your brain that you can contend very easily once everybody gets healthy. And so I think that what they're doing is keeping one door, one door open in the future and trying to win now. They're trying to do both. And I don't really understand, again, investing three first round picks in the third overall pick. I do if it was the first pick or even maybe the second, because I do think there's a gap between two and three in this draft. But from everything I've read and from everything

that we've talked about, I think that they think they can compete this year and I think they think Jimmy Grappolo is going to be part of that unless they get a godfather offer. That's a hot take to say you think there's a gap between two and three. That means you like Zach Wilson.

I think evaluators agree. Wait, do means you like Zach Wilson. I think evaluators agree. Wait, do you not like Zach Wilson? I'm just saying. You're saying it's a drop-off from Zach Wilson. I would say. I have no idea if he's going to be better than Fields. I think there's a huge drop-off. I think there's a huge drop-off.

There's Lawrence and there's everybody else in this draft. Yes. Everybody else. I agree with that. And then I think there's Wilson. And then I think there's a smaller gap than the one certainly between Lawrence and Wilson. And then you have Trey Lance.

You have, and a lot of that, listen, if Trey Lance played a full college season, we're probably talking, he might go to, and we might have a totally different conversation. There's so many different question marks. This is the baseball draft in football. This is what everybody keeps calling. And when I talk to GMs around the league, I talked to one this morning.

There's so many unknowns. I think everybody feels a little uncomfortable. I think that there were there are probably GMs in this league who wish that they didn't have any draft picks and could just trade them all for veterans because they're just on some of these guys. There's just such a lack of information. I think that, you know, it's not even I did a thing at Sloan a couple of days ago when we talked about this, but it's not even like because some of these guys, there's just such a lack of information. I think that it's not even... I did a thing at Sloan a couple days ago, and we talked about this.

But it's not even like because some of these guys haven't played enough games, you can't even go off analytics or anything. Because there's just not a lot of data there. So you're lacking some tape. You're lacking some analytics. Some guys just opted out entirely. How do they... The data at pro days can be slightly unreliable.

I just think that there's a lot of people in this league right now who are deeply uncomfortable with the scouting process for this year. And it's going to be interesting to see. Do you think that helps or hurts Justin Fields? That he had less games? I don't know.

I don't know. I think that the because he had less games some of the struggles against a team like Northwestern I think get overblown and you know Danny Kelly's a lot smarter about this than I am you know you me and him and

Nora talked about this a couple weeks ago when we did our emergency podcast after the Niners draft or not Niners trade we talked about fields a little bit. But I do think that that's... The fact that they only played conference games last year, I do think that that probably heightened every single pass from a scouting standpoint.

And so I don't know what would have happened if they had played four more games or whatever. You mean the podcast where you admitted your affection for Matt Ryan as the star of QB? I'm on the right side of history on that. Matt Ryan might make the Hall of Fame, dude. If he just keeps playing well, there's a chance. Dwight Howard's going to make the Hall of Fame.

Dwight Howard was the best player on a team that made the finals. I'm just starting out people who have made the Hall of Fame. Matt Ryan was the quarterback of a Super Bowl winning team or Super Bowl losing team. Listen, you've painted yourself into a Matt Ryan corner and now there's no escape. I'm fine with this. You're there for life.

You're acting like I'm defending like Josh Freeman or something. Matt Ryan. Josh Freeman was really good that one year. Listen, this whole thing, this whole Matt Jones thing is because everyone keeps saying, well, Kyle Shanahan wants his own Matt Ryan.

Yeah. He wants his own Matt Ryan. Oh, Matt Jones plays just like Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan is Kyle Shanahan's apparently ideal quarterback. Him and Kirk Cousins. Kyle Shanahan is one of the best coaches in football. And he keeps looking at Kirk Cousins

and Matt Ryan for inspiration. And I don't know what I'm missing. And once when all in on Brian Greasy or his dad did the Shanahan family. Yeah. They, they do like a certain type of QB. It seems like, um,

so you think jets, Zach Wilson, yeah. Niners. We don't know. But if you had to bet who? Would you still bet Mac Jones? I wouldn't take Mac Jones, but everybody who's smarter than me

said it's going to be Mac Jones. So I'm going to say Mac Jones. I wonder if it's Trey Lance and then they just keep Garoppolo and they feel like Trey Lance is the highest upside for talent for that pick. That would make a lot of sense. That would make more sense.

We forgot to mention with Garoppolo, he's got the no trade clause too. So not only is there just a lot of sense. That would make more sense. We forgot to mention with Garoppolo, he's got the no trade clause too. So not only is there just a handful of teams that would actually want to trade for him, but he gets to pick which team it is, right? So I don't know if it was, I'll throw out a team, Denver. Denver got a woody for Jimmy Garoppolo.

He could just say, no, thanks. I'm not going to Denver. Thanks anyway. Why does Garoppolo. He could just say, no thanks, I'm not going to Denver. Thanks anyway. Why does Garoppolo have a no trade clause? Great agent. Isn't his agent the same? Yeah, it's Tom Brady who navigated that incredible

Tom Brady-Garoppolo situation that I'm not sure there's a lot of love lost on either side. And then we have Atlanta at four. What would you pick for that? Best guess. I think they take Pitts to tight end. I think we have Atlanta at four. What would you pick for that? Best guess. I think they take Pitts to tight end. I think they say fuck it. I think

so too. I think there's some real I think if they took a quarterback, it would be good. You almost have a everyone makes this comparison, but an Alex Smith Mahomes situation and you just get to groom the fourth overall pick for one or two years in the building. I think that'd be fine. I know it's weird.

It's weird because when I talk to GMs around the league, you'd be surprised how many old school guys there are who just don't want to take a guy like Kyle Pitts at four because they're a tight end. They've all got 1998 positional value brain.

But if you just consider he's a receiver, it becomes a lot easier, right? No, that's what I'm saying. I think what Daniel Jeremiah said this weekend where it was just like, if you just say, okay, fine, he's a receiver, you're still going to be happy with him at four. Just do it. Sometimes I laugh

at how outdated is the wrong word, but there's a rigidity in NFL thinking sometimes that I think is kind of funny. I would say, if I'm in their situation and I don't love a quarterback, I would take Pitts.

The most fun scenario is they take Pitts, the Bengals at five, don't take the tackle. They take Chase at five. And now you're the Dolphins at six. And

you basically, you have your choice of two receivers left or, and they'd probably take, let me see. I guess they would take, who would they take at three then? Who's the other receiver? I'm blanking.

Oh, Devante Smith? Yeah, Devante Smith. Yeah. Who they probably could have gotten him or Wado if they just stayed at 12. So you could see the Dolphins do the rare double tradeback, where they traded back, traded up. But then if six becomes some sort of swing pick with the two quarterbacks left, they could always move back a couple spots, right?

Yes. What if Denver is like, holy shit, our guy's still there. We'll move up from nine to six and we'll give you our next year's first. And then the Dolphins move back to nine

and they still get a receiver. I could see them doing that. So the conspiracy theory around the league is everybody was wondering why the Dolphins traded up from 12 to six. And a lot of that was because

I think that there are people in the league who think that the Dolphins believe that six is still 6. And a lot of that was because I think that there are people in the league who think that the Dolphins believe that 6 is still the cap bird seat and they could still get more draft capital. And they can wait for a desperate team to come up and get, you can get maybe even a few more second round picks, maybe a first

round pick, depending on how that shakes out. So I think the Dolphins wanted to be in the thick of it in case they could take advantage of more desperation. The Dolphins have been getting very good, Bill, at taking advantage of other teams' desperation over the past three years. So the Dolphins spent a first-round pick to move up from 12 to 6. And at 6, they feel like they can get more value than that first-round pick they gave up. Or they just take somebody at six if it doesn't work and they get a weapon for Tua. So I think that they think that there's just flexibility at six that doesn't exist at 12. You're really waiting for the draft to shake out before you know we can get a 12.

Miami taking a QB at six would be the fun record scratch moment in the draft if that happened. I would enjoy that. Yeah, that would be quite a moment, but I don't happened. I would enjoy that. Yeah, that would be quite a moment, but I don't think it's going to happen. Any other draft predictions? We're pretty close now. Anything else sticking in your craw

these days? Not much. Again, it's a weird cycle and I kind of feel like the fact that we're getting... we have more time to talk about a draft where there's never been less information

is making all of us dumber and I think that's we're going to maybe see some of the worst takes we've ever seen. I think that we've already seen some of the worst takes we've ever seen.

Really? I kind of think that's only going to continue. Super Bowl. Just giving quick odds here. Atlanta is still 60 to 1. Do you think that's going to change? Broncos are 55-1.

Washington's 50-1. Vegas and Carolina are 50-1. Every year we see a 50-1 or worse become a relevant playoff team within a few months. And I think those would be the four picks because you're not going to talk me into Detroit, Houston, Jacksonville, Philly, New York Jets, Bengals.

So out of those teams I just listed, Carolina, Vegas, Washington, Chicago, Denver, or Atlanta, what team seems conceivable to be in a Final Four? Denver, I would say. I mean, there's a lot of people who think that if Denver had upgraded at the quarterback position

this year, they'd be a nice little trendy AFC team. I do think you have to reckon with the Chiefs in that division and then you don't get home field and all that stuff. But I kind of feel like

from a roster perspective, I kind of like them. Atlanta, I've always liked their talent more than they've actually played, especially last year. I could be talked into them being okay this year,

but I don't. Did you have Washington there? Yeah. Washington's 50 to one. I think I actually, I actually think, I think she thinks Washington only because their front seven is so good. Their front four,

especially is so good. They have a ton of first round picks. I feel like McLaren is one of the best receivers, young receivers going. I kind of, I feel like the pieces are there where if they just upgraded two or three things, they could,

I mean, they made the playoffs last year. They won the division last year and I don't see the NFC is getting exponentially better this year. I like Atlanta at 60 to one as a one a, and I like Denver at 55 to one as a one B because I do think both of those teams, we could feel a lot differently with them after this draft. So just from a change your destiny two weeks from now situation, I think those are two to look at. Because what if Atlanta just trades back from 4

to 9, picks up a second round, gets somebody awesome at 9 anyway, and they're getting more assets. They were getting more assets. They were pretty competitive last year. And then Denver has been kind of the sexy jump team for, what, three straight years now? And then they just have dumb injuries and weird things happen. Also, they were run by John Elway,

who was not watching the games. That's a problem, usually. And being enamored with six foot six quarterbacks. I honestly just don't think John Elway was all that locked in, to be honest with you. You think he was doing some golfing and some corporate speaking and then on the side kind of running a team? If that was his maximum effort at running a team,

I have more questions than answers on that one. That's what I'll say about that. All right. Kevin Clark. You can hear him on the Ringer NFL show. And I'm excited for this draft. I think I have this ranked high, and I can't wait to see what happens.

Drafts. I think it's just from three on, it just gets weird. I like when we don't know what's going to happen in a draft. So it'll be fun. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Bill.

All right. We are fast forwarding until about 824 Pacific time. WrestleMania day two just happened. David Shoemakers here is the art director of The Ringer. He is the host of The Press Box and The Masked Man Show. He's recording The Masked Man Show after this one. Double duty, almost after this one. Double duty. Almost like this WrestleMania. The two-day thing, before we get to the quality

of this show and what we liked and didn't like, the two-day thing was a long time coming. They were kind of doing it anyway with NXT on Saturdays and then this on Sundays. I loved it, just from this respect, that Sunday wasn't six and a half hours long.

And I liked that it was split up. I liked having a two night event. My son liked it. The matches could have been better. We'll get to it. But the two day premise, did you think it worked? Absolutely. I mean, the problem with the two day thing is, I mean, just, you know, you're a dad.

If you, if you fly your kid or your family down to wherever WrestleMania is and you spend all this money for plane tickets and you're already going to spend all this money on merch and to go to the Hall of Fame and everything else, and then suddenly you have to pay for two nights in the football stadium to make sure you see all your kids' favorite wrestlers, like, that's been what's holding them up. Now, you're right.

If you went to one night or the other, and even if you watch the other night from your hotel room, you, I don't think you'd be disappointed this year. Night, night one was on, on questionably. One of the greatest nights of WrestleMania that I can remember night two.

Really? I mean the match quality, like you said a little bit up and down, but the main thing I thought that that held it back was it was a little bit too WrestleMania. It was too, it wasn't that it was too long. It was too much of a slog. By the time we got to the Women's Championship

match, I was just dying for the Funkasaurus to come out and dance or something just to give me a chance to breathe. But aside from that, what an incredible weekend. So you think, I didn't even think of this. I just assumed if you had tickets, you had them

for both nights. So they did a day one, day two, two separate things. You had to get tickets for both? Yes. I'm sure that's true because I remember seeing that night two was outpacing night one. Well, I thought day one was stronger than day two. I did enjoy the

main event. So I wanted to do winners and losers. I didn't throw these at you. I did enjoy the main event, so I wanted to do winners and losers. I didn't throw these at you. I'm bouncing them off you. And if I missed anyone, let me know. First winner, in no particular order, but I have to put her first. Bianca Belair, who

Ben and I saw when we went to Orlando, I think three years ago, we saw her in an NXT match. And the ponytail in person is absolutely riveting and you can't really explain it, but it seemed like this gimmick that eventually you'd get tired of. I gotta be honest. I'm not tired of it. I've never seen a wrestler use a part of their body more effectively and in more of a riveting way than she does. It was actually incorporated in the match

you wonder if it's going to come off i don't know if it's real i'm googling whether it's real as the match is going on and uh there's just something about her she's so unique and i was not surprised she won the the brilliance of it is that she's barely used the ponytail at all as a weapon on the main roster it was the thing she did in to some success and a lot of the NXT call-ups that have not been successful and this is not the whole story about why they don't work but a lot of the times the people on the main roster the Vince or whoever else in the office will see them and kind of just get them on the most surface level and just exploit the surface part that's all we're going to see we're going to run the surface part into the ground that could have been the case with Bianca Belair. They could have just said, oh,

she fights with her ponytail. She's like a video game character. But no, they showed restraint with her. They showed maybe a little bit too much restraint in the build-up to the match because they could have done more with her and Sasha. But like I said on the Masked Man show last night, sometimes

promoters know they have the match when it gets into the ring and they don't do as much as they could do or they don't want to overdo it in the build because they're confident about what they have now that's not an excuse for the kind of slow build to this match or the whatever the weak build but they thought i bet they knew they had it in the ring because that that's the match of the weekend absolutely you need some sort of hook. If you're going to be, if a woman's wrestling champ is going to actually outpace the men's wrestling champ, which has really only happened one time ever, right?

That brief moment with Becky Lynch, where she was the biggest star in the company. But what's interesting about Bianca Belair is, first of all, great athlete, I think has a really good in-ring persona, always has good matches. And then that ponytail thing, it's almost like seeing Giannis in person or something. It's just cool. It really works. And I don't remember, from a female wrestling standpoint, somebody having that much of a unique physical hook.

It seemed like Nia Jax, it might happen on there just because her size. It was like, holy shit, is she going to be like the female Lesnar? Yeah. But it never really took. This is the first time I can remember. In history, has there been something like this

with a physical hook with a female wrestler? No. I mean, what would even be the equivalent with a male wrestler? Like Lex Luger's bionic arm? I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I mean, what would even be the equivalent of a male wrestler? Like Lex Luger's bionic arm? I mean, I'm trying to think. Cowboy Bob Hortons.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know. I'm sure there's a good example. I'm sure there's times where dudes have used their hair to some advantage or something. Well, male wrestlers have had Andre the Giant being overwhelmingly big. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Stuff like that. It's really special. But she's just a really special performer.

I mean, like, I said yesterday, if I had never seen her before, and I all... And from the... All I got to see was that match from bell to bell. The course... The story they told in that match would have led me to believe that she was...

She had gone from a newbie to the most important wrestler in the world by the end. Like, they did it in that match would have led me to believe that she was she had gone from a newbie to the most important wrestler in the world by the end like they did it in the match and it was true and uh i talk i mean the there's no winners or losers that doesn't start in with her bianca belair is is i mean the whole i think the story the whole the whole two nights was what this company is going to look like in two years. Like the people, every win that seemed a little bit surprising, but basically every win and some of the losses, I think were point.

This is the first time in a long, long time where I felt like WWE had their eyes on the future for an entire WrestleMania weekend. It's usually the opposite. But Bianca Belair is just the paradigm of that whole thing. Versus pushing a bunch of people in their mid-40s and early 50s. Yeah, it might be a better game plan

to look at the future. Yeah, who knows? I got to say, when we saw her in person, and I barely knew who she was at that point. I don't know how long she'd been in the NXT. And this was summer 2018, like July, August range, I think.

It was just like, wow, that person's going to become a star. Like sometimes, you know, like wrestling, Saturday Night Live, there's certain things when people are on the scene, you're like, oh, they have it. It's this, this will happen. But I guess it took almost three years for it to happen. Well, 2018 would have been the very beginning of her. Yeah.

I mean, that's the first Mae Young classic. Like, you know, I think that the thing with her is... Maybe it was 2019. It was somewhere in there. From the sideline, she's always looked like a blue chipper, like this could be the future. But that doesn't always pan out. That almost never pans out, I guess,

in the grand scheme of things in pro wrestling. The look doesn't, especially now, the look is not enough. So is the ponytail real or is it not? No, no, no. I'm sure it's somewhat real. That's like a talk show thing for her. She'll go on Colbert or Kimmel's show and the ponytail becomes the talking

point. I thought that match was excellent. I really did. I thought that was one of the best women's matches I've seen. What's interesting is it gets us to the loser, or first loser of the podcast. The Becky Lynch conspiracy. She's coming back. That's going to be the big swerve. It just never happened. Who started that conspiracy? We never saw her for two days. Where was it?

She was on Instagram teasing people that she was going to come back. Listen, I think that I think that tomorrow night, meaning Monday night as we're recording this, makes a lot of sense for her. If she was going to come back, it would have been a cool moment to pop the crowd at WrestleMania, but it's also like Monday nights when we set the table for the rest of the year. And I think that

WrestleMania had enough. You know? And if she is going to come back, maybe it's Monday night. I don't know. I mean, maybe she's not going to come back. She's certainly in getting into ring shape that that much. I think we can glean from her Instagram account. But they could have whenever whenever she comes back. That's huge.

I'm sure that's where we're heading for SummerSlam or whatever. Bianca Bell, wherever Becky Lynch will will be where we go down the road. Another winner. William Shatner made the WWE Hall of Fame. I think at this point, you and I are both going to make it. We're like four years away. When William Shatner's in, I really feel like I might have a chance. Wait, was Shatner was last year?

I think Shatner was officially class of 2020. And this year's entry was Ozzy Osbourne. What did they show last night? That was it. That was last year because they didn't actually get to celebrate it in a stadium. Oh, that's right. You're right. Yeah, it was 2021.

It was very confusing. And then this year's celebrity was Ozzy Osbourne, who did a pre-taped video package when he was announced, but didn't even do anything. I don't know. I mean, he was not there didn't even do anything for, I don't know. I mean, he was not there tonight. So it was, it was a very, well, you know who was there.

Shatner did not make it. I think he's like 90, but the NWO did make it. And I really, really appreciated that they only went with the original four because there was a point

with the NWO where there was like 37 people in it. Just kept swelling and swelling to the point of parody. They had X-Pac. It was actually number... By the way, X-Pac was number six. X-Pac, that's why it was called...

Who was five and six? The Giant, and I believe they were counting Ted DiBiase in their original numbers. Oh, I thought X-Pac was four. Oh, so they conveniently forgot four and five then. Yeah, I think they probably extended the offer to the Giant, but he was too busy doing something else. But no, I mean, everybody, when you think of the NWO, you think of those guys, right?

Those four. Yeah, the NWO at this point is less about the actual historical record in WCW and more about how it exists in the better parts of our memory. And, well, I don't know if, you know, X-Pac doing his little routine counts as part of that, but he was part of the clique. He was part of the crew.

He's got to go in as part of the NWO. I think they've reached a fascinating point. When I see them in person, your first reaction is, my God, they're all still alive. Amazing. Scott Hall, like, has exceeded the over-under by like 10 years. Yeah. But then it's really funny to watch old wrestlers do some of the same mannerisms

when they're doing their peak, when they're doing the thing with their arms, when they point. Scott Hall can barely get his arms over his head. I enjoyed that. It was good to see Hulk Hogan, newly freshly capped teeth. A loser. Michael Cole completely botched the Bianca Belair final moment of the

match. He had another botch tonight. I forgot what it was. You know, these things are going to happen, but the finish of the main event on night one, one of the biggest matches in WWE history, probably not the best time just to totally whiff on it. When he whiffs on it, though, it's weird because of the way that you and I

and people listen to this know professional wrestling, your instinct is that he knew something different than what the script. He knew a certain version of the script, and they deviated from the script. Right? Isn't that like, that's what always makes it so strange. Right, they swerved him. Well, it was so bad. Bianca Belair wins the title, but he thought

Sasha Banks kicked out. It was so bad they might actually have to redub it for future showings of when they show the clips of Bianca winning. I've never seen, I mean, how does he not know when the final moment is going to happen? Bad job by him. I guarantee they've already

redubbed it. They've already redubbed it and they've probably already taken Michael Cole and hypnotized him to think he said it the right way the first time. So yeah, I mean, that will never be, that blown car will never see the light of day again. Another winner, Bad Bunny, that said all the makings of a

disaster and celebrity cameos in WrestleMania is one of the most fun things in WrestleMania. They can either be great, half decent, or a complete catastrophe. And those are really the only three options. This Bad Bunny thing, the match was actually really watchable. It was a decent match.

He did a good job. It was kind of shocking. Shocking is the only word for it. It was a of shocking. Shocking is the only word for it. It was a I mean, there are celebrity wrestling fans all over Los Angeles, California, who are giving up their

dream of being in a WrestleMania match because Bad Bunny has just shut it down. You can't just show up and give a right hook to Dolph Ziggler anymore. Now the bar is so high because of Bad Bunny. It's ridiculous. And by the way,

you tell, tell Ben the bar is set for him too. All right. Like he had like Bad Bunny is the, is the lowest level that I will allow Ben Simmons to achieve in a professional wrestling ring. He's got to do better than that. He's ready.

He was watching the hall of famers and he said, that's going to be me someday. And he said it without any sense of irony. So i guess i don't have to pay for college he's just going right through the performance center i liked how they were doing the guria and martel um gimmick with uh bad bunny with with bad bunny as guria just getting the shit kicked out of him while martel is like waiting to come into the ring for 10 minutes it was was good. It was, it was really effective. And this is, that's the most like Northeastern Boston take on the whole thing.

That's called, it's called playing Ricky Morton. It's into the ride, the rock and roll express, like, like, you know, made this made that into an art form.

No, no. Korea Martel started that. Fuck the rock and roll express. They can go to hell. They stole it. But yeah, that's so from a celebrity cameo standpoint,

that was great. The Logan Paul thing was more of the traditional WrestleMania thing, but even that wasn't that bad. That was the way they usually do it. Logan Paul was a late addition to the WrestleMania extravaganza. If you would have asked me two hours ago, three hours ago, I would have said the odds of

Logan Paul looking bad were close to zero. I know that it shouldn't be that shocking, but Logan Paul is like, he's all about image, you know, like this, like he, like he signed off.

Like it was like, they just gave him a bag at the last second. Like we need, we need 10,000 more kids to watch like something. And he just like Logan Paul is now amongst my favorite people because he just, he took a stutter from Kevin Owens just to pop the crowd. Like he's self-aware. WWE is somehow aware enough to know that, that making him look bad is a positive.

Like, they never are smart enough to know when people hate celebrities. So, we probably see him again, would be my guess. Sure. Why not? Why not? If that's what we had, I mean, if that's what it takes for that moment tonight, I mean, okay. That's okay.

I mean, as long as he knows how good Bad Bunny was, you know, we'll give him a shot. I have this as a winner and a loser. The Nigerian drum match. First of all, great name for a match. I didn't know what to expect. Nigerian drum match, the possibilities were limitless. And then the actual match, it was just,

there were some sticks involved. I didn't really feel like there was a drum. And in terms of Nigerian drum matches, I just wanted more. I thought there would be a couple more props. C plus all around. But the match itself was decent. It was. I mean, this feud has been going

on for a little while, but it is encompassed an entire character shift from Apolloollo and he and his his new like nigerian excellence character is fantastic i mean it's just really good it's good i think partly because it sets off all these internal alarms for long-term wrestling fans like we're about to see something really offensive and then it's not actually offensive it's actually like a really like admirable i mean it's a really good character that just happens that happens to be a villain right we have so we have so much damaged dna from the wwe just completely crossing lines with stuff

like this you're right they they handled it well and i was kind of horrified the whole time but it was fine listen i love that character and i love biggie and i was prepared for him to lose because frankly this feud's been going on long enough. And post-WrestleMania may be the time for Big E to make a leap up to the main title scene, right? I mean, this could be... A loss can sometimes get you there. I was not prepared for the run-in from Babatunde or Dabakado,

whatever that guy's name is, who was on Monday Night Raw several weeks in a row in Raw Underground, and apparently no one remembers him. whatever that guy's name is who was on monday night raw several weeks in a row in raw underground and apparently no one remembers him but i mean it's a it's a uh you know it's an interesting look for for apollo and it could be it could be a whole lot of fun it was kind of interesting that two nights in a row the three members spread out over two nights the three members of the new day got like absolutely demolished and left dead by by by these like young giants that the WWE has brought in. Um,

you know, I, I don't know if that's that, if there's any continuity there, but it was, uh, I was not expecting it two nights in a row. Well,

the most important thing from a ringer standpoint is I feel like this pulls TD, our beloved TD who runs our podcasts. I feel like this pulls them in now, this Nigerian angle. This is his corner now. I know he's monitoring, but I feel like we might... I could see him on the Masked Man show in like three weeks. All right.

All right. I keep an eye on this. Keep an eye on that ringer scenario. He's always invited. Loser of the weekend. Shane McMahon, who normally is going through tables. There's some sort of buffer as he's free falling to his almost certain death. This time it was just a backflip off the steel cage onto the ring. And it looked like he landed on the top of his

back first. I'm the same age as Shane McMahon. I'd still be in the ring. They'd be scraping me off um i i was just kind of horrified for him and then he took a another another move after that and i and we haven't heard from him since i assume he's just in a wheelchair it's crazy i mean and i think the sad thing about it was i don't i was all i was out of my seat in the moment when that happened. But it hasn't stayed in my memory the way that sometimes these elbows off the titantron sort of crazy exploding table moves do. I don't know why. I think it was a little bit closer to Jimmy Snuka jumping off the top of the eight-foot cage where it seems like a great idea. And you're like, yeah. And then you watch the replay and you're like, dude, that guy was like five feet off the ground at this time like it wasn't that big of a deal

he shane was way higher but there just wasn't as much magic to it he just fell like this is pro wrestling it's not like real things you know and uh and and and it probably doesn't help that like you know shortly before that we saw drew mcintyre do his little like flip over the top rope to outside of the ring and not get caught by his opponent and basically do the same bump right yeah he just did it onto the floor by accident yeah it was fun I mean Shane's a loser for

having to do that year after year sure but he also gets to do it you know I mean it's I'm sure he gets a lot of joy out of almost killing himself for the cheers of fans I like that they tried to really sell this Braun Strowman. Don't let anyone call you stupid! It's this social media pandering angle.

I'm dedicating every episode of the Masked Man show from now on to all the people who got called stupid in their life. They're out there. Another winner was Cesaro. They were talking about this is the greatest moment of his career. And it was like he won a match 75 minutes into day one of a two-day WrestleMania event. And the announcer was like, I'm so happy for him.

And at the same time, I was really happy for him. I was like, wow, maybe they're finally buying into Cesaro, who is one of the Internet's favorites for a long time. And they just ignore him year after year. He's been here for 10 years, and all WWE's ever done for him is buy him like 15 different jackets to wear to the ring and think that would make a difference. I gotta

tell you a story about this, though. I don't, this is, this is from Twitter. This is, I have nothing to do with this, but Rob Naylor, who used to write, I think, and produce for WWE, he's a good Twitter follow, tweeted today that in 2012, oh, no, sorry. After 2012, but sometime after Claudio,

after Cesaro got signed, Rob Naylor found a video of him doing the UFO that movie during the match where he like, basically it's like a torture rack airplane spin, but with no hands, he had a video of him doing that to this giant Japanese wrestler back in 2012. He showed it to Terry Taylor,

the red rooster producer at WWE and Terry Taylor went to the clock, went to Cesaro and said, why don't you do that in every match? And Cesaro said, I'm saving it for WrestleMania one day. And he's never done that move. And he did it in WrestleMania. Like, how great is that? He really did save like the coolest moment of his repertoire for this moment at WrestleMania. And it's I mean, it's like it's hurt. It's touching. Like very rarely is something like WrestleMania. It's touching.

Very rarely is something like that in pro wrestling touching. I'm so happy for the guy. Emotional. That was a good way to suck up to the fans taking care of Cesaro. A loser, The Fiend, I think we have to put him in the loser column. Got a little booed at the

end. By the 25,000. Got a little testy with it i i didn't i don't think the match hit what did you think the fiend is the fiend is like like a really high profile restaurant that all of your friends love and keep telling keep trying to meet you at and every time you go you kind of get food poisoning but you keep trying because you want to be in like you want it to be as good as it's supposed to be yeah I don't know man I was so

sure that this was gonna rock because the floor I mean the ceiling was low I mean they were sorry the bar was low and it they had to make it great now listen the visual of Alexa Bliss shooting black goo from her head

and whatever this leads to next, like, okay, I'm always in. We ran a cool story on The Ringer this week about whether or not this is the first great horror story that WWE has ever told. If so, maybe they're just setting up the sequel. But the match itself was nothing to be excited about. And for all the hype, I mean, they wrote him off TV for months,

speaking of The Fiend, and brought him back as the Toxic Avenger. And then tonight, just nothing. There was nothing, nothing. So, I mean, that's a huge loss. I'm giving Bobby Lashley and Rhea Ripley kind of incompletes. It happened. What happened, they won their matches this weekend,

which we expected, but I'm not sure what it's going to mean for them long-term. Was it just a quick, we needed some fun title changes to happen at WrestleMania thing? Or is this the start of something a little more substantial? No, Lashley was the champion coming in but there was just, but Drew had been the champion He lost it, he won it back. Yes

but we thought that he was gonna, I mean I didn't think there was any way that Lashley was gonna win I think I said that I thought it was a toss up but I realized when he won that I was like more shocked than anything I could have possibly been It really does make what happens next on Raw a lot more interesting. We could just keep this feud going for six months.

Who knows? But if Druid won, it would have kind of seemed like Lashley gets to go back to the middle of the pack. Now, at least we have we still have two guys starting tomorrow that are still at the very peak, you know, still at the very top. So that's cool. Rhea Ripley. I mean, there is nothing.

Oscar, she and Oscar are both top top five performers, but there was nothing they could do to match the women's championship match the night before. And they didn't get, they didn't give them enough time to do anything to, to compete with some of the other stuff that was going on on night two. Um, it was a big moment for her, I think in the fabric of the whole thing to be amongst the other up and comers who got big wins. And I think that she will, just like coming in second place in the Royal Rumble did, I think that the end result is going to be that she's going to be

in a position to do some really, really cool stuff. I mean, the Raw women's roster is not that deep. She is now the face of a big brand on WWE. And I think that, you know, she's got I mean, she's still a baby, too. I mean, she's like Randy Orton when he was coming up. Like, I can't believe they're as young as they are

and they look that comfortable in the ring. She's going to be great. Roman Reigns giving a winner to him. He's, I think he's the most compelling male wrestler we have now. Whether you like him, whether you're in on him, he's just the best at it right now. It feels like an event when he's the most compelling male wrestler we have now. Whether you like him, whether you're in on him, he's just the best at it right now. It feels like an event when he's out there.

Being a heel has really worked for him. I like his genuine disdain and disbelief with the crowd. He's really got that look down. I like when he yells at the crowd. And he's starting to seem unbeatable a little bit, which I think that was the most important thing with Lesnar is you had to be really surprised if somebody beat him. And now it feels like they built Reigns the right way.

But this goes back to something we've always used to talk about way back in Grantland with John Cena, how they wouldn't flip John Cena. And they flipped Reigns. And I think it's been an A+. It was the greatest thing that they ever could have done for him, right? The greatest thing they could have done for him, the greatest thing they could have done for the

company, the future of professional wrestling. Like, Roman Reigns as a heel is the most meaningful thing in the entire WWE. Compelling is the word. And it's compelling in a way, you can't call wrestlers compelling. You can call storylines compelling. You very rarely can call the specific performer compelling because there's not always a lot of room for depth.

Personal human depth in pro wrestling. Roman Reigns is compelling. And I'm so glad you mentioned him yelling at the crowd. You and I have sat next to each other in the seats very close to the ring and have had heels, you know, mouth off in our direction and scream and stuff. And what do we do? We like elbow each other and we chuckle about it. And we're like, haha, that was funny that that happened to us. When Roman Reigns slammed Daniel Bryan to the table and then screamed at the crowd,

I like fell off the back of my sofa. He's like a, he is a frightening, frightening person. And to be that good looking and that frightening is unfair. It's just wild. Well, they also, he tapped into something that I don't know why they've abandoned from the 80s. The having the bad guy who has at least two people in his corner who could fuck with the match. Yeah. It's, it always works. I love having him with Paul Heyman, then have an Uso in there too, to potentially help tamper with it. And it gives this aura of

you could be beating this guy, but you're still not going to beat him, which is the best way to keep the title in his hands for how long has he had it now? Dang for like a year. I mean, for over a year. I mean,

it's been a long time. Yeah. Well, I think it can, he can keep it. Maybe add one more person to the entourage. It's really smart. Really, really great. What other wrestlers

midway through their career had the personality changeover thing work this successfully? I mean, Hogan in WCW was late career. Then when it happened for, when he became a good guy in WWE, that was pretty early career. Who's done it mid career this well.

My brain, my brain is so messed up. August 20, August, 2020 was when Roman Reigns won the title at SummerSlam. So it's only been half a year, or I guess we're on pandemic time. I know,

I know. I can't remember. Apparently Dustin Johnson won the masters four and a half months ago. And I thought that was like a year ago. I don't know what anything was. When did the Lakers win the title? Three years ago? Who has turned their career

or changed their personality to this degree? Who has like reinvented themselves as much? Who's gone either good guy heel or heel good guy and actually gone up a level at a point in their career when we were kind of like, yeah, what do we do with this guy? Well, I mean, Hogan's the bar,

but Hogan could have just ridden off into the sunset when he joined the NWO, and I think we all would have been okay with that. He was late career, too. I guess, you know... Yeah, like Bret Hart's later heel run when he was on the way out of WWE, sort of like that.

And that, I mean, his Hart Foundation, like Canada Nationalist run was just incredible heel work, but he was that, I mean, his like, um, uh, heart foundation, like pro like, like Canada nationalist run was, was just incredible heel work, but he was a baby face in Canada. Um, but I don't know. That was, that's a good one.

I thought you're right. That was a good one. It was so good. Um, but no, there's gotta be, I mean, uh,

honestly, the closest thing I can think of, um, including like the, the time away and everything else is was sting when sting became the crow he didn't turn into a heel we didn't really quite know what he was turning into but to totally i mean in terms of reinventing yourself um and just making it making us care right at the moment where we could have never we could have stopped caring altogether well you know the other thing

because we some people are better on one side of the other. Right. Piper was always a better villain than a good guy. When they made him a good guy, he just from that point on was not as good. Reigns is just a better heel. He's better at it. And now I look back at his whole reign as a good guy and it's like, what's missing? Why isn't the crowd responding to him? It's clearly because this was meant to be his destiny. I don't know if Cena had done it. I think there was a point in his career where it would have worked. But I don't know if fundamentally

he could have pulled it off. Because I think he wants to be liked too much. I think the Reigns thing from all the shit he took early on in his career as a main eventer has actually worked toward his advantage being a heel.

Cause I, I feel like there's a residue of like contempt for the crowd. That's really the residue for, yeah, that residue is there. And then there's also the fact that we, you know, he's an effective heel because he was,

because they strung out his baby face run for so long. I mean, Cena, Cena could have been a good heel, but you're right. There's an element of him that wants to be liked. And the, the,

the problem is Cena poisoned the well. I mean, obviously, Hogan was always a baby face in WWE until he came back. I mean, he wasn't the first guy, but Cena really poisoned the well for Reigns because everybody was begging Vince to turn Cena heel for 10 years. And the merch sales proved out Vince's decision to never turn him, right? I mean, Vince, at the end of the day can feel justified in never turning him. And so now anytime anyone's like,

why don't we turn that guy heel? Vince can just be like, look at John Cena. We didn't need to do it. Everybody kept telling me to do that. But this is, thank God he did, because this is proof in the other direction. And guess what? I guarantee Roman Reigns is selling just as many t-shirts, probably many, many more than when he was a baby face, you know, and just selling t-shirts to kids.

You know, I mean, he's cool now. And there's no reason why you can't wear that shirt. You should be better off wearing that shirt than wearing some like silly baby face t-shirt. It's, you know, heel and face are not what they used to be. We need to be told good stories. And they're finally doing that. They're selling a really good one. So biggest star in the company

rankings I think Reigns is one yeah oh yeah who's two is Becky Lynch do I get is Becky Lynch back she's not back she doesn't count um of the people that were on this card I think number two is

number two is probably Sasha Banks um but her losing to bianca belair really just sets up you know rate makes a question about how soon it will be before belair sort of ascends fully i mean sasha banks was was smiling ear to ear lying on the outside of the ring as bianca was celebrating her victory because Sasha Banks knew what a moment that was right only someone who's as big a star as Sasha Banks can afford to smile in that moment um but Daniel Bryan and Edge both the people who were in that main event match had great showings in our Daniel Bryan was great in that match he looked it's amazing his career

was over like over over done put a fork in it. And now he's wrestling. I mean, he's probably never going to be at the level he was 11, 12 years ago, but he's 85, 90% what mean, you talk about the stars. I mean, they don't have a lot. They only have one Roman Reigns, but Bobby Lashley and Drew McIntyre are both kind of there. You know, I mean, they're both, they're both hopefully close. I mean, WWE's got to hope they are. Seth Rollins, we'll see what happens with Cesaro,

but as it stands now, you have Seth Rollins, AJ Styles, and Kevin Owens who were sort of like, they can be, they can kind of be reinvigorated into superstardom with the snap of a finger, right?

I mean, they don't, like, they are all right there at sort of 1B, right? And then, well,

Bayley, what, you know, didn't get to get in the ring. There was a kind of limited run for a lot of the women this weekend, but I talked about

sasha but like charlotte bailey obviously becky lynch she comes back is in the top charlotte's hurt right uh charlotte's had some i don't know what the final verdict was so she was hurt for a while there was a little bit of a covety thing going on i don't i don't it's all very her her you know fiance got got his release from the company there's just so it's just a lot of kind of it's a blur of drama that i don't quite i don't i actually don't know all the details on so i don't even want to say you know speak at a turn i'll just google it when we're done and go for it um but like biggie is another one who's right on the cusp i don't know how famous he is but as soon as they turn as soon as they like as soon as they turn the keys on him, he could be a household name. Right. I mean, he's like, he, he's such a personality. Um,

and you know, there's a lot, I mean, just, there was Randy Orton and the fiend, both guys who, you know, are pretty well known, you know, I mean, real famous dudes and Randy Orton just somehow is getting better with age. Um, and you know, he's only like 33. I think that, you know, the one person I'm leaving off that I really, that I feel I have to mention. I think my official ranking is this. Number one, Roman Reigns.

Number two, Sasha Banks. And number three, Bad Bunny. Bad Bunny is officially the third most famous WWE wrestler. He's probably more famous than those other two. I'd be interested to know if this helps his career. I assume it would, right?

To actually come off well in a WrestleMania, I would assume it would sum it up. Any performance, especially hip-hop or music, whatever, it's all about confidence. And all he showed at WrestleMania was that he has the confidence of 100 men. He's so brave and good at things.

He's a talented guy. That was a really, really crazy performance. Well, a year from now you and I will be in Dallas together. Your hometown. Kind of exciting. The last time WrestleMania was in Dallas, you and I had a lunch at Poolside.

Yeah. At WrestleMania Day. And I think you were... It was great. You were explaining the idea of the ringer to me at that point. I think there was some... The ringer was only a vague notion then. Oh, interesting.

Yeah, you're probably right. You were deep into contractual negotiations The ringer was only a vague notion then. Oh, interesting. Yeah, you're probably right. You were deep into contractual negotiations with some sports writers who shall not be named. But it was all just a sort of figment, a twinkle in your eye. Many, many years and many, many events have passed since then. But it'll be fun to be back in Dallas. You know what else happened?

That was my greatest heel moment when I flashed the Patriots logo on the Jumbotron. I got booed by like 80,000 people. It was awesome. Oh, man. It's so crazy. It's so crazy.

It's like, think about Bad Bunny and all these other celebrities, whatever. It's like, there are so many people that dream, grew up wrestling fans

and dream of like having their Hulk Hogan moment celebrating in the ring with fans chanting their name. And there's only a select few who dream of the moment where they can get 50,000 people booing at them at the top of their lungs. My son was so scared.

It was awesome. It's like you and Fred Durst are, I think, the complete list of people who have just gone heel on the cameras. What other option do you have? It's so good. When I'm in my son's corner in 10 years, I'll get to do whatever I want.

Shoemaker, we could list you on Masked Man and then on the excellent award-winning Pressbox podcast. I'm going to start saying it's an award-winning podcast. We could just make up some award. It's fun, but I think it adds a level of prestige to it. Make sure you ask Curtis if Vern Lundquist has hit that dangerous point Clark and I talked about earlier

Clark was afraid to comment that's that that kind of Dick Enberg point that it happens Curtis and I have talked about it a lot on the pod but make sure you ask him

on the next press box I will we'll talk about it tomorrow alright Shoemaker thank you thank you man talk to you soon alright that is it for this podcast

Have new rewatchables coming on Monday night This is a one for us But because we're banging out the history Of the great modern action movies We had to do this one It's another Michael Mann movie It is Mannhunter You know it as the movie that became Red Dragon

16 years later with Brett Radner Which which was an unforgivable holiday sin, Hollywood sin. But yeah, we're doing Manhunter. It is Michael Mann's most stylish movie probably ever. It is a hugely, hugely influential movie. Huge, massive. So if you haven't seen it, I'll give you 24 hours there. So I got one more podcast coming this week and it's going to be on Wednesday. So you got another rewatchables for me on Monday, and then one more podcast on Wednesday, and then back with Rosillo on Sunday night as the basketball season is just starting to get kind of interesting. So I will see you on Wednesday.