The Bill Simmons Podcast - 8 Best Kyrie Trade Scenarios With Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 247)

Episode Date: August 15, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor to discuss Kyrie's limited trade market (6:00), Josh Jackson's trade value (10:00), the Knicks' best shot to get Kyrie (17:00), Cleveland's interest in Jamal Murray (23:30), Jabari Parker's trade potential before his injury (30:00), the Lakers trading for LeBron (38:00), and Kyrie's chances to be a Cavalier this season (44:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Coming up, Kevin O'Connor. We're going to talk about the latest on the Kyrie Irving trade front. I have a bunch of trade ideas, including the question, what if LeBron just left? We're going to talk about that right now. But first, the Rock and Roll Hall of Famers, Pearl Jam. The ringer's Kevin O'Connor on the line. We've been on Kyrie Watch now, I think, for four to five weeks. There's no resolution.

Adrian Wojnarowski wrote a piece for ESPN.com today talking about how Cleveland is kind of paralyzed because they think LeBron is leaving, which I think we were the first ones to talk about that back in June during the finals. And it has paralyzed them in a variety of ways, what they want to get back in a trade, whether they should still be going for it this year in LeBron's last year versus trying

to think about the future, all these terrible contracts they had to take on. They are really behind the eight ball. And yet I feel like there are a ton of good trades out there. KOC, do you think this gets resolved before the season starts? I think in some ways it almost has to get done before the season, just because I don't see how this could possibly go into the year for the Cavaliers and have it become something that it just goes away. I think it's something that gets worse the closer we get.

I mean, we're only about a month away from training camp getting started. We're about 40-ish days away from the first preseason game for the Cavaliers, 60-ish days away from opening night. I think something has to get done, but the tough part is that if Cleveland is actually seriously concerned that LeBron's leaving, they can't expand what they're looking for. And that was one of Woj's points in his article today, that they can't seek out those veteran-based packages

because it wouldn't make any sense to get that back for Kyrie Irving if LeBron's going to leave. But if they knew LeBron was committing, then they can expand what they're looking for. And then that suddenly gives them more leverage to drive up the price. And right now, Cleveland can't do that. And that's the hang-up, I think, for them at this point. And I think they're resigned to the fact that he is probably leaving, even though he hasn't officially told them yet.

I'm interested to see if they escalate the LeBron part of this at all and basically come out publicly and say, hey. We can't we don't know what to what to trade Kyrie for if we don't know you're going to be here. Which, of course, to be fair to him, he's going to say, hey, that's nine months away. I don't know what I think. And it's just going to become some sort of staring contest. But here's the thing. I think there are good deals for them that are out there that would solve both the short term and the long term. Walsh had some names in there, like Porzingis and Jason Tatum.

Those are guys they're just not going to be able to get for Kyrie because I think he did hurt them by asking for the trade, even though it was his right, because once that got out, it probably hurt their market by, what, 30%? On the other hand, what's he going to do? He's not going to telepathically ask for a trade. He has to ask for it. He was hoping it wouldn't get out.

If they start shopping him, the league's going to know that he asked for a trade. It just seems like this happens over and over again, where once teams sniff that this asset might become available, it knocks the market down, right? I mean, that's what it's about. And leverage in negotiations, I mean, whether it's for a free agent or for a trade, I think that suddenly did drive down the price. And, you know, granted, like Cleveland, if a deal does happen, they're still going to

get something good back. I don't think it's going to be a garbage deal where, like, we're whistling back, like, that's all they got. I think the reason why this is taking so long is because those offers will escalate as we head into September. It absolutely did hurt them, the fact that that did leak out. Well, here's what I don't understand.

I would be jumping on Kyrie if I ran one of these teams. And we've talked about this in previous podcasts, but I don't know how long the list is of guys that I know can go toe-to-toe with the best players in the league in a finals. He's on the list. The list might be eight guys long. It might be 12 guys long, whatever it is. We just watched it. It was him and LeBron versus Curry and Durant toe to toe, two on two. And the supporting cast were basically

what won that series because Golden State had a better supporting cast. But Kyrie showed he could play on the highest possible level. So if I'm looking at that, if I'm any of the teams that would be rumored to be interested in him, I'm just starting there. I think that hearing people talk about, well, he can't be the best player on a team. He couldn't do what Kobe did. Kobe couldn't do what Kobe did. When Kobe was the best player on a bad team, they were a team that won between 37 and 45 games.

No, it's really rare to find any superstar who can carry a team by himself to 50 plus wins. It's maybe just LeBron and Durant right now. Even Westbrook couldn't do it, putting up crazy stats. Anthony Davis can't do it. I think it's really unfair to say, oh, if Kyrie's your best guy, where are you going? Yeah, you could say that about anybody in the league. But if Kyrie's one of your best guys and you're in a series like the conference finals or the finals, he can take you home. So I look at listening to Phoenix saying Josh Jackson's not on the table. Not going to discuss Josh Jackson. I just can't believe that.

If I could get Kyrie for Bledsoe and Josh Jackson and I take Channing Frye's contract back and I throw in a protected first, I'm done. Call it into the league. Can you believe they won't trade Josh Jackson for Kyrie? Where do you stand on this? Well, that's kind of the focus of my article

coming out on Wednesday on on the ringer just about how should the sun put josh jackson on the table for kairi irving and you know this part of me that says no um and the reason why is because you only get two years of kairi and there's significant risk that he would leave but the other side of me is like no shit you give him up because first of all we're talking about a guy who who first of all his jumper is not very good um ignore this percentage at kansas 38 30 37 percent from three his jumper is going to be a problem in the nba and we've seen with guys like just winslow stanley johnson aaron gordon michael kidd gilchrist where if you don't have that jumper everything else that you do well

it's suddenly minimized if you're not able to space the ball offensively. Granted, Jackson is a better offensive prospect than those guys. The jumper is a problem. The other part of it is this. For Irving, you mentioned how great he is as a player. That's something we've discussed before. It's something I've written about on The Ringer. The other part of it, he's a

Team USA player. Don't underestimate the connections he would have in the coming years for Phoenix through free agency. Guys like DeAndre Jordan, DeMarcus Cousins, Jimmy Butler in 2019, that's insanely valuable. It's like Daryl Morey said, that's his goal, get more USA basketball

players. And Kyrie Irving is one of those guys who are moving forward in free agency. It makes them even more of a destination when they've already had DeMarcus Aldridge there in Phoenix for a meeting, they had meetings scheduled with Paul Millsap and Blake Irvin. Players kind of view them as an appealing destination. And if they have Kyrie Irving as their cornerstone next to Devin Booker, who's only going to

get better, suddenly maybe Phoenix is the place players want to go. And that's the variable that, or it's like, it's a no-brainer to me. I'm in the end to put Jackson off the table. Yeah, so that's the Danny Ainge snowball effect, right? 2007, they trade for Ray Allen. It makes no sense. I was furious about it. They trade the fifth pick in the draft. They got Ray Allen back. They got a couple other things. It turned

out to be a better trade than people realized at the time. They dumped the expiring. But it was like, all right, what's the point? We have Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and Al Jefferson. Like, what are we? We're not making the finals with this team. Ray Allen was in his early 30s at that point. Pierce was in his prime.

Didn't make sense. But actually, it did make sense. Because once they had those two, that changes Kevin Garnett's mind about leaving. All of a sudden, he's greenlighting. All of a sudden, they have KG, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen. It is true. If you get the Kyrie piece, and you didn't mention, what is Devin Booker in a year? Devin Booker, who knows?

He might have this leap year where he becomes an all-star next year, and you have those two guys. It makes it so much easier to get that third guy when you have the two guys. And Josh Jackson is probably three years away from even possibly being a guy like that. And as you said, this is a league where every year we come to the conclusion that it's an offense first league. Offense matters the most. We saw it with the MVP debates in April. Oh, well, Kawhi is the best two-way player in the league.

Well, who cares? Offense matters more. What Harden does offensively has a bigger impact than what a two-way player would have. We all agree on that. Offense is 70 to 75% of what matters in the NBA now. We don't know if Josh Jackson can shoot. I like Josh Jackson. I think he has a lot of potential. I don't know if he can shoot. You don't know if he can shoot. Nobody knows if he can shoot. I like Josh Jackson. I think he has a lot of potential. I don't know if he can shoot. You don't know if he can shoot. Nobody knows if he can shoot. Hey, to me, it's like if you can turn Bledsoe and Josh Jackson to Kyrie, I do it yesterday. It's done. Call it in. I don't get it. I don't know what they're thinking.

You brought up that Celtics trade back in 2007, Bill. I was thinking about that last night because the Garnett deal that followed, everything that we've heard since then, I know Howard Beck wrote, I think, a oral history of the trade on Bleacher Report a couple years back, and there's been a lot of other stuff that leaked out at the time of the trade,

but the important thing to remember with all these big deals, with all the big-name players, is that they can take such a long time because there are so many versions that are discussed. So we have another player, Carmelo Anthony, has been involved in rumors the past couple months. And for teams discussing these trades amongst each other, there can be hundreds of versions

that are talked about and discussed and mulled over and thought about because there's so many ways to get something done. So it's all more than leverage in some ways. It's about figuring out the deal that makes the most sense for as many teams as possible. If there's a way to get a three-week deal done, then maybe that's what ends up happening, but maybe not. But you've got to go through all those steps in order to reach a deal. And the Garnett deal from 10 years ago was really a great example of that.

And maybe we'll look back at this Kyrie-Melo summer and see similarities here. Well, it's a chessboard thing. You get Kyrie. Not only does that open the door now for you to get a third guy, but you also, if you're feeling, I sound like QB Brown talking to the second person, you also have the assets to make a third trade anyway, because if Bender and or Chris turn into more of an asset than I think they were last year, I think everybody's a little dubious about those guys, but who knows? You have first round picks. You have some pieces to maybe put something together, but let's be honest, like maybe Booker's part of that. And maybe if Anthony Davis, New Orleans, who knows what happens there in four months and all of a sudden they're going to,

New Orleans decides, you know what, this is bleak. Boogie's probably going to leave. Who knows? You could package Booker and a couple other things and all of a sudden have Kyrie and Anthony Davis on your team. You don't know. But what I do know is you should turn Bledsoe into Josh Jackson because it opens the door for a bunch of different conversations. I wonder if they know that this is the best deal. They know that this is the deal that Cleveland wants and they're just kind of biding their time and eventually they're going to get there. Now, I was talking to my dad about this.

I don't know if I've said this on a podcast, but if they kind of conspired with Josh Jackson in June to have him fall to the fourth pick, remember he wouldn't work out with the Celtics? Yep. Canceled it while the Celtics were on a flight across the country. He kind of soured on Chicago. I got to be careful because Casey Wasserman owns the ringer.

But that's a very inside joke. They don't like that one. Yeah. Oh, wait, wait. Russell Westbrook's the best Wasserman quite. But yeah, I mean, if they conspired with Josh Jackson and Josh Jackson's agents to try to get Phoenix at four, and that's what happened. And then they trade Josh Jackson two months later. What if Josh Jackson comes out and is like, these guys screwed me.

I would have worked out with the Celtics. They told me not to. And I wonder if that's the reason that he's not on the table. Is that possible? Yeah, I guess it could certainly be possible. I mean, you think of promises that happen in the draft. I mean, I've heard certain stories where a team makes a promise and they regret making that promise because on draft night, a guy falls to them that they wish they could have taken, but they made a promise. You don't want to ruin the relationship with that agent or that agency.

Or the ringer, in this case. That's also true. That's so stupid. Very true. Yeah, no, I do wonder if that's a small piece of this, because it did seem like some chicanery happened with that Josh Jackson thing. How do you not work out for the Celtics, one of the best four teams, and you just seem delighted to go to Phoenix? I always wonder what happened with that.

All right, let's talk about some trades. Speaking of the Celtics, I came up with eight possible Kyrie trades. I don't think all of these make sense 100%, but I just think if you're talking about Cleveland stuck, they're not, they, they have LeBron for this season. They have to get a young player for the future, but they also have to compete now with the team they have. The cupboard quickly becomes bare except for a couple of teams. Here's one of them, the Celtics. I don't see how the Celtics could offer anything more than this. Isaiah, who's going to be a free agent in a year, Jay Crowder, Terry Rozier, and you know what? I'll

throw in Boston's 2018 and Boston's 2020. And I'm overpaying at this point for Kyrie. No Nets pick? No, no Nets pick. You don't get my Nets pick. Oh. Well, I think you've got to give up a Nets pick here, because if you're Cleveland, on the other side of it, you're thinking to

yourself, Isaiah could leave. He could leave in a year or two. And you're cleveland on the other side of it you're thinking to yourself isaiah could leave he could leave him in a year too and you're also thinking the same thing boston might be thinking do we really want to sign this guy to a full max contract yeah so i think you have to get that next pick which might not even be in the top five you could throw in a top two top three protection on that if you really want to and it might not get there anyway so i think that need would need to be in the deal so it's almost like it would almost make more sense to put marcus smart in the deal with isaiah and then it makes no sense to have isaiah and kairi together it also makes no sense why a conference finalist would trade with the other conference finalist which i'm pretty sure

has not happened in at least 30 years i remember I went back and researched this trying to figure out when anybody who was that high up traded with each other. And it just has not happened. It's not a common thing. So, oh, I remember the last time. It was Seattle and Phoenix when they flipped Dennis Johnson and Paul Westfall. And it's not like either of those teams had made the final. So it was 1980. But they were both 50-plus win teams in the Western Conference.

They were pseudo contenders. But it's just not common. Cleveland and Boston aren't trading with each other. So I'm crossing this off. There's no scenario where Boston gets Kyrie Irving. All right. We mentioned Phoenix. I think that trade is Bledsoe, Josh Jackson.

Westfall left after one year, by the way.ledsoe Josh Jackson left after one year by the way I just pulled up left after one year with the Supersonic yeah it was it was a weird trade the Phoenix trade

I think would go Bledsoe Josh Jackson Jones just a contract to throw in maybe a 2008 second rounder

and Phoenix has to take back Kyrie and University of Arizona star Janie Fry and I think it's same thing for Cleveland I mean And Phoenix has to take back Kyrie and University of Arizona star, Janie Fry. I think it's the same thing for Cleveland.

I mean, where's the Miami pick? That's what I'd be saying. And even if the Miami pick's there, I'm thinking to myself, that's even top seven protected. It already has the protection on it. So is that possibly why they're having a staring contest about putting Josh Jackson in? Because eventually they want to get to the point where they keep that Miami pick and throw something else in instead. I would say yes.

I think that could be it. I find it hard to believe Josh Jackson isn't on the table for Kyrie Irving. Did they watch the finals? Those games are on NBA TV. Go watch the finals. What are you doing? The Knicks. Would you rather have that Miami pick or Phoenix unprotected with

Kyrie? Oh. I'd rather have the Phoenix pick. The Miami pick's top seven protected. I'd rather have Phoenix unprotected. Yeah, bad, tough Western conference. I'd rather have that pick. You can make it a pick swap, too. Yeah. Hey, we're going to take a quick break from

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And now back to Kevin O'Connor. The Knicks. Carmelo. Frankie Nicotine. Let'snor. The Knicks. Carmelo. Frankie Nicotine. Let's give them the Knicks. 2018 top 10 protected. And Cleveland dumps Shump. Two years left on Shumpert's deal.

One year left on Janie Fry and Kyrie. And if I'm the Knicks, I'm just thinking, I just want to end up with Porzingis and Kyrie. I don't even really care who else is on my team. I don't really care what my salary cap situation is because I'm screwed anyway. I got Joaquin Noah for three more years, 55 million, and Hardaway for four years at 18 million. Salary cap's irrelevant.

I'll take those other guys. All I know is I have Kyrie Irving and Kristaps Porzingis on my team, and that's my end result, and this is great. Let's go. I think the Knicks do that. What do you think? I think the Knicks might even be willing to soften the protections on that drastic top 10 protected. I might be willing to go top two, top three protected on that. I mean, that's a really strong deal for them. Get out of the mellow situation,

then I think you get Kyrie a guy who probably wants to stay there, right? I don't know if he'd guarantee it, but I think you'd have to feel pretty strongly for the Knicks that Kyrie would resign there. And if I'm Cleveland, I'm getting Carmelo back, so I'm replacing a lot of Kyrie's offense, and now I have Carmelo, Love, and LeBron, which presents its own sets of problems.

But at least for the upcoming year, I can compete with that. I got the eighth pick in the 2017 loaded lottery. That's somebody I can develop down the road. Or I can flip him for whatever. I also have that pick I can flip. I have options as the season goes along. And I can wait and see how this LeBron thing plays out. And Carmelo has an out next summer. That's another thing, right?

So maybe Carmelo gets out and now I can start rebuilding. I mean, that's not an ideal situation, but if I have to trade Kyrie, that's another option. Or maybe LeBron opts in for one more year to stay with Melo through the duration of his contract. Because I don't know if Melo would get that kind of money on the open market. Because the money has dried up quite a bit. And depending on how much the cap increases, I don't see Melo getting high 20s, low 30s, max deal long term. So maybe LeBron would be willing to stay an extra season

to play alongside his buddy Carmelo. That could be a bonus for them. I think that would be the act of a great friend, but I think the Movers trucks are already moving LeBron's stuff from Ohio to L.A., and I don't think that's really an option. Now here's one. There's a lot of stuff to move up there. So Woj,

Woj who knows stuff, who has more information and access to people than anybody, he mentioned a group of young players that the Cavs are basically focused on. Three of them were unrealistic. Two of them were unrealistic. He said the Cavs are basically focused on. Two of them were unrealistic.

He said the Cavs find themselves far more fixated on a young star, including New York's Chris Tapp's Porzingis. That's not happening. Boston's Jason Tatum, also not happening. Phoenix's Josh Jackson, maybe. Denver's Jamal Murray. First of all, how is Jamal Murray in that paragraph? What am I missing?

Am I missing? Am I missing something? What am I missing? My question is, should Tatum be off the table? I think, poor thing, we both agree that he should be. But should Tatum be in the Jackson conversation? Like in the Jackson realm of prospects where you don't want to give him, but yeah, you kind of would.

If it's, but this is the conundrum with the trade. If you're telling me it's Marcus Smart, Jason Tatum, I don't even know if the contract, and Crowder. Marcus Smart, Jason Tatum, and Crowder for Kyrie, then what do you do with Isaiah? Like, it just doesn't make sense for the team Boston has. And if anything, if you're Boston, you're kind of looking at this going, Cleveland's going to trade Kyrie. We're going to be the favorites in the East as soon as that happens,

because they're going to be getting 70 cents on the dollar for Kyrie. So let's just let them make whatever trade they're going to make, because now we're going to contend. I also think with the Boston side, there's an Isaiah popularity thing that they have to reconcile. The guy's hugely, massively popular in Boston. Kyrie's on the enemy team. Is it enough of an upgrade offensively? Isaiah had one of the best 10, I think, statistical seasons by

a point guard ever, just from advanced. If you look at the advanced metrics, usage rates, scoring efficiency. I don't think there's been 10 more efficient scoring seasons ever in that position. So how much am I upgrading? And then I can't play Isaiah and Kyrie together. That's a disaster. And Isaiah and Tatum is too much, right? We both agree on that. That's way too much for Kyrie. I think considering the other offers that would be on the table, it would be too much.

But in a vacuum, I don't know if it's too much. But considering everything else that's out there, it would definitely be too much. And then if I'm Cleveland, Isaiah just hurt his hip. What am I trading for? I'm trading for a guy who might be hurt, who's going to be asking for $30 million a year from now. I just don't think they're a match.

Yeah, I don't think they're a match. I don't see it. But Denver, Jamal Murray, it's like, okay, I can get Kyrie with Jamal Murray as a centerpiece of a trade. Let's figure this out. Can we go to lunch?

I'll bring the trade machine with me. Let's figure this out. All right, here's the trade I came up with. Jamal Murray, Wilson Chandler. Still, would you say an above average rotation player? If he's your seventh man, it's pretty good, right? Rock solid. Good player to have in the playoffs, I think,

here at Cleveland. I'll throw in Juan Hernan Gomez. You know what else? I'm a big Hernan Gomez fan. I'll throw in my lottery protected 2018 pick. You give me Kyrie. I'll give you Murray Chandler, Juan Hernan Gomez, and my 2018

lottery protected pick for Kyrie. Who says no to that? I think Denver jumps all over that. If I'm Cleveland, if I'm Colby Altman, I'm sitting in my GM chair and I'm thinking to myself, I'm not a big fan of Jamal Murray, because I'm not. I never have been.

I think he's a solid player. I think he's going to be a good player in the league for quite a long time, but I didn't see it. A lot of people last year viewed him as like a top four, top five guy. I had him, I believe, ranked eighth or ninth on my board last year. I think he's going to be good. But I think if you're Cleveland, you're looking for that kind of next-level prospect. And the other names on that list, like you kind of said before, Bill,

all three of them are just at a different level in my opinion. Poisingas, obviously, he's shown what he can do. Tatum, I had him ranked second this year. I view him as a potentially great player. And Jackson, granted, I have my concerns with his jumper. There's no denying that dude is a force on the defensive

end of the floor, and he does a lot of things well offensively besides shoot. Whereas Murray, his thing is shooting. And he didn't shoot the ball very well last year especially when pressured um his playmaking is solid but he doesn't have he doesn't have really the ability to create without a screen so it's like what does he do for you um i like murray i think he's going to be solid but if i'm cleveland i'm i'm aiming for something much more significant than him. So if I'm Denver, I'm really trying to jump all over that. I 100,000% agree with you, and I have no idea why he was in that Woj paragraph, but he was.

He was in that paragraph. A lot of people like him. Yeah. A lot of people like Murray. Okay. So what if the Cavs say, eh, what if it's a top five protected 2018 pick? Do you still do it if you're Denver? No problem.

Yeah, no problem. I mean, I think if you're Denver, you're thinking playoffs with Kyrie Irving. I don't think you're worried about any protections on that pick. If anything, you're putting a top one, top two protection on that just for speed. But I don't think that would be an issue at all. Well, the problem for Cleveland in that trade is that it doesn't really help this year's team contend, which is why we should bring a third team into this.

Now it's getting really interesting. Tate, you ready for this? Yeah, I'm ready. Okay. I don't need the Charlotte. Charlotte's coming, Tate. I just wanted to make sure you were emotionally ready to hear this three-teamer.

Cleveland gets Carmelo Anthony, Jamal Murray, and Denver's top 10 protected pick. The Knicks get Wilson Chandler, Iman Shumpert for two years, and Juan Hernan Gomez. It's the dramatic reunion of the Herman Gomez brothers. They haven't been together since Spain. And Denver gets Kyrie. So now if I'm Cleveland, I have Carmelo. I'm replacing a lot of the veteran, the scoring, all that stuff. Jamal Murray for some shooting.

I'm making a big bet on him. And I still have that Denver pick to shop if I think LeBron is staying. And if I'm the Knicks, I've dumped Carmelo for a lot better than what Ryan Anderson and all these other shitty, terrible deals they're getting. At least I'm getting something for Carmelo, who's super unhappy. What do you think of that? That's an interesting one. That might be my favorite one so far.

Thanks, Kevin. For all three teams, really. I think the more a deal gets expanded, I think this goes for any Melo deal with the Rockets, too, but the more interesting I get in it. I don't know if that's just me fantasizing about big potential trades, or if it just suddenly becomes more realistic, because this feels like it needs to be a big deal, doesn't it? Yeah.

I mean, it doesn't feel like something small and significant, because that's something that would be done in some way. But here's the problem. The more teams you put into a trade, the more of a chance that it has to get screwed up. You know? Exactly. That's the ultimate thing.

And all it takes is one person on one of the four teams to go, well, wait a second. Why would we do that? And then all of a sudden it unravels. We should mention if I'm Denver and I have a chance to end up with Kyrie, Paul Millsap, and

Jokic, I'm in. I'll figure out the rest later. I know I got those three right I'll figure out okay those are my three I got it but I got some other role players maybe I can deal Moutier for something but I'm ready to go to war with those three guys I like those three guys I like the way they fit I think that would be really fun so that's I agree I think that's the best one there a couple others we should bang out really quickly. Minnesota.

Wiggins is, you know, I think you and I both heard the same thing. I think everybody has that Wiggins is kind of the floor for Cleveland. They know they can probably get them. Minnesota made noise about potentially extending Wiggins, which I thought was bizarre. But basically it would be Wiggins, Cole Aldridge's contract, which I think has two years left, and Minnesota I think would have to give up an unprotected 2018. And then you get Kyrie, figure out the Jeff Teague thing in December or February or whatever.

It's a pretty uninspiring pullback. Where do you stand on that one for Cleveland? Just that's all they basically get is Wiggins and a pick. Yeah, it's solid. It's all right. It's not great. I wouldn't feel too good about it. If I'm Minnesota, I'd be ecstatic.

Then I'm bringing back Shabazz Muhammad. I'm trying to give him a little uptick and role and responsibility as kind of a go-to scorer off the bench. I'd feel amazing about that if I'm Minnesota. I like Wiggins, but it's kind of the same thing with Jamal Murray. I just don't like him as much as a lot of other people do.

I think he's going to be a good player, but at the same time, where's the scoring efficiency in the half court? I like him a lot, but for Kyrie Irving, oh, man. I'd want to wait if I'm Cleveland, if that's the best I can do. Yeah, that deal's there in February.

But waiting comes with risks, too. Yeah, that deal's there in February. It makes them a lot worse this year, which is the reason why I don't think it happens. Significantly worse. Yeah, if you flip, if you're basically flipping Kyrie and Andrew Wiggins, you don't have a chance in the 2018 finals now, which is why that trade doesn't happen. That's like a deal you make after LeBron leaves, where it's like,

we're totally focused on the future, draft picks and young players. Here's another one that I don't think works, even though it's fun to look at on paper. Milwaukee. Chris Middleton, Malcolm Brogdon, Greg Monroe's expiring, and Milwaukee's unprotected 2018.

Milwaukee gets Kyrie, but they also have to take Shumpert for two years. And Fry's expiring. I just, I don't think it's enough for Cleveland. It's the shame of this for, I mean, it sucked anyway that Jabari got hurt. But if Jabari was healthy and playing well, and that now Jabari, Brogdon, and a first becomes a trade, you got to think about if you're Cleveland as a possible best you can do. The fact that he's not healthy, he can't be in this trade.

I don't think Middleton's enough of a centerpiece. I think this trade makes the 2018 Cavs worse. And Brogdon, as much as we like him here at the ringer, exposed a little bit in the playoffs. We'll see what his ceiling is as the reliable creator guard on a really good team in a playoff series. I still don't know. He's overqualified to be a third guard.

He might be underqualified to be that guy. So I don't think that's enough. What do you think? I don't think it's enough either. But you bring up kind of an interesting concept for trade here, and it reminds me of the Wiggins. The Wiggins loved trade a couple years back in 2014. There was a report from Zach Lowe at the time,

and it's similar to what I've heard, that another offer on the table for Minnesota was Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes in a draft pick. And that type of structured deal where it would be kind of young players on the verge of reaching the next level, but right before they do, guys who are still on their rookie deals, that's kind of a unique type of deal I would look for from Cleveland. The issue is, look around the league at the guys who make sense, and there's not a lot of them. I mean, there's Wiggins, Jabari Parker has the torn ACL.

There's not a lot of guys that stand out as that possible Draymond Green or possible even Harrison Barnes, for that matter, who isn't even that great. I mean, he's a good player. But there's not a lot of that out there that makes a lot of sense for Cleveland. So that could be a tough deal to find, but I'd still want Jabari. I mean, if his value has diminished, if Milwaukee were willing to put him on the table, he's

somebody I'd still want. I mean, those two torn ACLs that he's had over the past couple years is seriously concerning, but that guy's a real talent. And if those were fluky injuries, you could have something special I like that, I like Jabari showed me something a few times

last season, his go-to ability which is very old school I'm getting to the rim, you're not stopping me, there's something about his game that's becoming more and more unique with the way basketball is being played I was a big fan of the stuff he was doing last year

I had him number one over Wiggins more and more unique with the way basketball is being played. I was a big fan of the stuff he was doing last year. I had him number one over Wiggins in the draft. Yeah. The other X factor with that trade is whether Kyrie would be happy in Milwaukee, him and Giannis together. I just don't see it happening. And I think if I'm Cleveland and I can trade Kyrie out of the conference, I'm also looking at that too, versus strengthening any team with Giannis when Giannis is the most logical MVP pick for who's, who's the next under 23 guy to win the MVP. I think he would

be the, the pick in a landslide. All right, Tate, you ready? Yep. Charlotte Hornets, your beloved team. Couldn't be great. Kevin Tate's having a rough week. Cause Marvin Bagley went to Duke. Tate came in. I got because Marvin Bagley went to Duke. Tate came in. Oh, yeah. I got to admit, I think he's still drunk from the night before. It seems like he went on a bender. He's got a black eye.

He's got a fat lip. I don't know what happened to Tate last night. I'm tired of it. But one good thing now is Coach K with his reconstructed knee. Now we know Coach K will be here all season. Yes. He's got Marvin Bagley now. Oh, he's healthy. We won't see any six- know Coach K will be here all season. Yes. He's got Marvin Bagwood now. Oh, he's healthy. We won't see any six-week Coach K.

Successful surgery. Yeah. The surgery's great now. No more excuses. Yeah. But Tate's upset. All right. Anyway, here's the Charlotte trade.

I've not seen this trade rumored anywhere, and I kind of like it. I keep looking at it. You ready, Tate? Kemba, who you drive to the airport yep but it's also an all-star point guard who could do 75 percent of carrie's favorite great teammate champion big balls makes big shots malik monk oh no i'm out jeremy lamb and johnny o'brien Jeremy Lamb and Johnny O'Brien for Kyrie and Shump's contract which goes on for two years

we think Tate I don't want to give up Monk can we give up Kid Gilchrist instead no this is the trade if I'm Cleveland this is the trade I want you offered me Batum no thanks the contract's too long I don't know if LeBron's staying I don't want to be stuck with those two deals.

Yep. You offered me your number one pick. I'm not interested. I want Kemba and I want Monk for Kyrie. I'd do it. I knew I'd break tape. What do you think, Kevin? I'd do it, too.

It would be being reluctant trading Monk. I would be, too. But my question but I would be too, but my question is would you have just outright traded the number 11 pick on draft night? The answer is yes. I would say right? No question. And I think granted Monk shouldn't have fallen that far. Yeah, sign me up. I'm Charlotte. Sign

me up. So then Charlotte would be left with Kyrie, the artist formerly known as Dwight Howard, Nick Batum, Kaminsky, Zeller. Marvin Williams. Marvin Williams, maybe a Kid Gilchrist resurgence. Kyrie's got the Nike relationship. His shoes are shockingly popular with the under 15ers.

Jordan takes those shoes, put the jump man on it, roll it out. And Kyrie becomes the guy in Charlotte. Yeah. And then Steph Curry gets a little jealous. And eventually you flip Kyrie for Steph Curry. And Steph Curry comes up. You got this, Tate! Charlotte!

But that's that. I got to say. Kyrie would score 35 on that team. If you're talking about all of these trades, what is the trade that would help Cleveland compete in 2018 for LeBron's farewell season? I think this might be the trade that would help Cleveland compete in 2018 for LeBron's farewell season. I think this might be the trade. Because Kemba could really

replace a lot of Kyrie's offense. And Monk is a giant fucking X-Factor. It might be somebody that they go to crunch time. If he's wide open... Kev, you studied the tape on this guy. If he's wide open in any playoff series, Malik

Monk, the ball's going in, right? Yeah. Good chance of going in, for sure. Monk's the next factor. I think you can light it up. You can heat up. I got one last one. I was thinking about the Lakers, and then we're going to go. I was thinking about the Lakers.

I thought the ballsiest move by Gilbert would be to trade Kyrie to the Lakers as a proactive cock block for LeBron going there. Because if Kyrie and LeBron really hate each other, you trade Kyrie there now and then LeBron can't go there. But here's the thing. LeBron's going there and Magic and those guys know that he's going there. So they wouldn't trade for Kyrie.

They wouldn't want him because they wouldn't want to ruin their LeBron chances in a year because they'd rather have LeBron. So here's my question. Even though LeBron has a no trade clause, why not trade LeBron and the Lakers right now? Just say to him, we know you're going, you know you're going, the league knows you're going. We can't get anything back for Kyrie that's going to allow us to win the 2018 title.

Go to the Lakers now. Start the next phase of your life. Let us rebuild. Let us keep Kyrie. So the future with Cleveland would actually be with Kyrie, who the people in Ohio love. And I'm going to try to get Brandon Ingram, Jordan Clarkson, because I need him first contract, Randall,

who's a free agent in a year, Corey Brewer's expiring, and a 2018 number one, top 10 protected. And I'll give you LeBron James. What do you think? If I'm LeBron, I'm saying no no because you don't want to give anything up right yeah that's one reason why and you know in terms of brand i mean you're going to look like the bad

guy if you waive your no trade clause to leave cleveland but you might not look like the bad guy if cleveland is forced to trade kairi irving and then the team loses in the playoffs next year because they're unable to do anything um that really makes them better during the year, then suddenly it's like, well, there's a better situation out west for me, both for basketball reasons and off the court, too. I think then you're looking okay, LeBron. But if you waive your no-trade clause and you're willing to leave, I think that changes the way fans will perceive you.

And maybe LeBron doesn't care about that, but I think he does. Just judging from his history of kind of, I think, kind of tweaking the conversation and really twisting it to fit what's good for him in some ways, which is understandable. I agree with you. I think Carmelo to Denver in 2011 has established it's stupid to give up assets for somebody you know you're getting anyway. On the other hand, if I'm LeBron, I'm in year 15 now. I have an incredible amount of miles. I've never had a major injury and I'm not fucking around anymore. This is probably my last chance

to win a title this year unless I can build a Lakers super team. But really this season, I don't want to mess around anymore. And if I feel like whatever Kyrie trade, I'm not getting back enough to win the title this year. Maybe you do start your life in LA a year early because you lay all the groundwork for it. I don't know. I would, I would at least consider it. I still feel like my three favorite trades, if you want to make the team better in 2018, but also have a little bit extra for the future. I like getting Carmelo, Jamal Murray, and a Denver pick second most. I actually like the Kemba Monk trade the most.

I think that would, you could make a case that might be a better team could kemba do 80 of kairi maybe more kemba with a chip on his shoulder i don't know 75 i mean he's certainly not he's not the shot maker kairi is i'm not saying he is uh jr smith mentoring monk oh god God. That's a negative. Now I don't like it. But yeah, the upside of Monk with a chip on his shoulder now. He got passed up by the Knicks. He just got traded by Charlotte.

Now he's pissed. Yep. But I'm just thinking crunch time. Kemba, Monk, J.R., LeBron, Thompson or Love. pissed yep but uh i'm just thinking crunch time kemba monk jr lebron thompson or love kind of dangerous plus kemba would stand up to lebron because kemba is the irrational i'm one of the best five players in the league even though i'm not but i'm the only one who thinks this but i really do genuinely believe this guy i like it what's your favorite one, KFC? I think it's still the three-way. Okay. The one where the Cavs get Carmelo and Jamal Murray.

I want a little more, but that's the one that I think picks up. KFC loves the three-ways. So you like Carmelo? Yeah. I'd expand to four if I could for a trade. Wow. Big thing here. Oh, my God.

Five-way trade. Come on. So if I could get you Carmelo, Jamal Murray, in Denver's top seven protected 2018 pick, you're calling it in? Calling it into the league. Probably not. No, probably not.

That's just the one I like the most out of all of these. But I just feel like there's got to be something better. There has to be something better. Jamal Murray and Carmelo. All right, I asked you this a month ago. I'm going to ask you again, and then we're going to be something better there has to be something better so Jamal Murray Carmelo all right I asked you this a month ago I'm

going to ask you again and then we're going to go is Kyrie a Cleveland Cavalier for this entire season

no I thought there was no way and we've heard so many things about how this is actually way worse behind the scenes

and Kyrie is just killing him everywhere, killing LeBron and really trying to poison his way out now. And I still don't think Cleveland's going to give him away. I think they're going to have to get something awesome back. And it's going to need to be one team who talks themselves into it and then thinks another team is making a move. And then that offer might get to the right spot. Maybe they can get Victor Oladipo and DeMontis to bonus.

Oh, my God. Oh, God. So if they got Carmelo, Jamal Murray, and that Denver pick, whatever it is, then also that Denver pick would be a trade asset for them with Kevin Love to get blank or with Tristan Thompson to get blank. And then there's a second trade. I think that's the one. They need to get somebody who can help them now, the young guy,

and then a future asset they can flip would be my advice for the Cleveland Cavaliers. But this is going to be fun regardless. KFC, you enjoying the summer? Yeah, it's been fun. Looking forward to the season though, too, but it's been a really good summer. Went to Lollapalooza earlier this month. It's a really good time. I know that the NBA schedule said they're not

doing any more four games of five nights things, but we're still making you work four days and five days, so don't think that your life's going to be easier, because it's not. Hey, man, college basketball too. KOC, as always, a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, Bill.

Thanks to KOC. Thanks to Tate who's in a coma now after I just threw the Kyrie Irving trade at him. Thanks to the BlackTux.com to help you create your look or choose from tons of stylish selected outfits starting at just $95 after ordering your suit will arrive 14 days before your event. Try it on.

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