The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Big NBA Weekend With Jackie MacMullan, NFL Schedule Chicanery With Warren Sharp, and Andrew McCarthy on '80s-Movies Stardom

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Jackie MacMullan to discuss the end of the NBA regular season, the upcoming NBA Hall of Fame enshrinement ceremony, the rudderless Boston Celtics, the “We Believe” Warriors 2.0, NBA awards, and more (3:20). Then Bill talks with Warren Sharp about the winners and losers of the NFL 2021 season schedule release, some futures bets, and more (1:11:00). Finally Bill talks with actor-director Andrew McCarthy about his new book ‘Brat: An ’80s Story’; some of his early films, including ‘Class,’ ‘Heaven Help Us,’ ‘St. Elmo’s Fire,’ ‘Pretty in Pink,’ ‘Weekend at Bernie’s,’ and more. They discuss “The Brat Pack,” 1980s Hollywood stories, working with legendary director John Hughes, and more (1:45:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Jackie MacMullan, Warren Sharp, Andrew McCarthy Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, I'm Shea Serrano. And I'm Jinx. We're hosting a new podcast called No Skips. In it, we discuss the most iconic and unskippable albums in hip-hop history. New episodes drop on Thursdays, only on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think Nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too.

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as well as The Ringer Podcast Network, where we launch a new podcast this week. No skips with Jinx and Shay. Brandon Jenkins, Shay Serrano. They're breaking down iconic hip hop albums every week, basically. And here's the first one they did. Oh. Oh.

It's Get Rich or Die Tryin'. I love this album. This takes me back to the Jimmy Kimmel Live Green Room, 2003, where we were finishing, the show was at 9 o'clock and finished at like 10.05, something like that.

And then everyone went into the green room and it was this 50 Cent album, Snoop Dogg's Beautiful. There are a couple others, but it was just distinct air of music that is just very, very near and dear to my heart. Anyway, you can listen to No Skips with Jinx and Shay. Follow it on Spotify. Get every episode as it comes.

And it's a good one. Speaking of podcasts on the Ringer Podcast uh, it's a good one. Uh, speaking of podcasts on the ringer podcast network, the rewatchables, we did lethal weapon two last week. We have one of the most important movies we have ever done on that podcast coming on Monday night. I don't even need to tell you what the movie is because you don't need to watch it ahead of time because you've already seen it a bunch of times. And, uh, it's one of the greats and we did it in person and it was super fun. And there you go. You know what else is fun? This podcast, it's a fat one. We don't split up our podcast into multiple parts here. We just, you could just sift through whatever you want to

listen to. I think you'd want to listen to all of this because we have Jackie McMullen talking NBA. We have Warren Sharp breaking down all all the NFL schedule 2021 quirks. And then Andrew McCarthy. Anytime I get offered an 80s movie star, I'm taking it. It's just one of my rules here. So this is a really fun podcast. I think we have to bring in Pearl Jam. Come on in, guys. All right, Jackie McMullin is here.

We're taping this. It's Thursday afternoon Pacific time. To say it's an action-packed basketball weekend would be an understatement. Holy mackerel. That's great. I actually wish the West was a little closer. I felt like if

one of those teams had lost last night, it would even be better. I mean, it's still pretty good because we're going to go down to the final weekend, but it kind of feels like the Trailblazers are setting up, you know, to eliminate the play-in from their life, right? Yeah, which is smart. But we also have Hall of Fame this weekend and the start of the WNBA.

I would say this is the busiest basketball weekend maybe ever because we've never had the Hall of Fame as basketball games are being played. No kidding. It's crazy. And I'm heading down there tomorrow morning you know it's at mehegan sun this year bill because of covid yeah and i'm interested to see who comes because it's a very different format than in the past you know the greatest take in sports i've always said for me anyway because i love basketball and i love all the old time greats, was they all had this amazing cocktail party before the evening events, the first night when they introduced the Hall of Famers for their jackets and the Kirk Gowdy Award and all that. And they have this just fabulous pre-dinner cocktail party and everybody's there and you're just talking around, you know,

you turn around, oh, there's Kareem. Oh, like the greatest thing. And because of COVID this year, things are very, very different. And the pre-induction parties are going to be split into six restaurants so they can keep everybody socially distanced. It's not going to be quite be the same thing. But my God, has there ever been a more compelling class? I'm not sure there has been. No. I mean, we have three all-timers in the same class. I don't remember that happening the way this is happening. You have three of, I would say, the top 27 players ever. I don't know what your list is, but they're all in the top 30. And then Kobe's obviously an all-timer. And then you have the Kobe piece too of just like his wife. And it's definitely going to be a memorable one it's going to be very emotional and you know Duncan and Garnett just so closely thought of

and certainly Duncan comes out ahead with wins and titles and all that but you know that was a great rivalry I can't wait honestly for Tim Duncan's speech more than anybody's because we never hear from him. And he's funny. He's a funny guy. And so I can't wait to see what he wears. Is he going to show up in the jeans and an open collar? How's it going to go? When's the last time you've seen Tim Duncan dressed to the nines in a three-piece suit ever? Yeah, and no Popovich, right? Which almost seems wrong that Popovich wouldn't be there. They're so synonymous. They were almost like a father-son.

They even kind of started a lookalike by the tail end of Duncan's career. Yeah, it's too bad. You're right. That's too bad. And I'm guessing Doc Rivers won't be there for KG either, right? Because I'm sure he has a game. Unless he can sneak in and out. I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, they basically have the one seed clinched. Maybe I wouldn't be shocked if one of those guys didn't sneak in there. But with KG, so each one has a fascinating subplot, right? Duncan, who's been so quiet over the years to actually have him have to talk about himself, will be weird and kind of riveting. KG to see if he can obey the, I don't know,

the PG, PG-13 limits. Right, right, right. Is he going to just start dropping F-bombs? Can he speak long-term without just starting to drop F-bombs? I have no idea. That's going to be fascinating. And then Kobe and his wife. MJ. Yeah, and MJ. And That's going to be fascinating. And then, and then Kobe and, and, uh, and his wife and, um,

MJ and MJ, and there's going to be a weightiness to, I'm sure everything will lead to that. Um, I it's, I normally don't care about the hall of fame stuff, um, that much this one, I actually care about, and I want to watch because I think those three guys meant a lot for different reasons. They did. And, you know, KG, he's like, you know, someone's going to be in the crowd going slow down because he talks at eight million miles an hour. I mean, will Paul Pierce show up? Right. We haven't had a Paul Pierce sighting since his unfortunate. Oh, yeah. Dismissal from ESPN for a late night revelry. Does he show up? I don't know. I mean, he's, I would guess, going to be a first ballot Hall of Famer in the next round in September. So yeah, it should be really fun. But I really do love seeing people like Oscar Robertson and all of those guys because I don't see them regularly, obviously. And that's how I've

gotten to know them through the years is by going to these events and really getting a chance to listen to them and talk with them. And my guess is that most of them aren't going to make the trip. Yeah. And I think that's been one of the many things that's made the NBA so special, at least to me, but also just as a league, the way they've always kept the older guys in mind and the guys who paved the way and, and, you know, say what you want about Stern and we could, we could point to some great things, some bad things, but he was always so conscious of that.

Not just like paying it back to those guys, but, um, also kind of understanding how they, they got shortchanged a little bit with what they made out of the league. The league takes care of those guys in all different ways. They always fly them to wherever they try to get them the finals and things like that. And, you know,

I think it's the only league like that. I certainly don't think Roger Goodell is sitting around going, I can't wait to pay it back to the guys from the sixties. Like he doesn't care. Baseball, baseball has a complicated relationship with its past. Hockey, I have no idea where they stand on this stuff. But basketball, basketball cares.

I think hockey's okay. Hockey is just one big toothless fraternity. I think they all, hey, where did you get your bridge? But I do think that the players, what I like about what you're saying is that the players picked up on it. And say what you want about LeBron and Chris Paul and those guys. They created that fund for the retired players to get free health screening. And it saved people's lives. It saved Tiny Archibald's life, Bill.

He had a thing called, I'm going to butcher it, amyloidosis, I believe it's called. He needed a heart transplant. He didn't even know it. And he ended up getting a heart transplant and he's with us today. And he wouldn't be if he hadn't gone to that free screening. And there was a bunch of other guys, and I'm not going to name them because I don't have their permission to. I wrote something about Tiny that had a high blood pressure, hypertension. So that was a great gift that those players, they put it in the collective bargaining agreement to set that up for the retired players.

Because as we know, not everybody is LeBron and Chris Paul, and it's going to walk out of here with hundreds of millions of dollars. There's a lot of, you know, Brad Wanamakers out there and a lot of guys on 10-day deals and people that don't make that kind of money. Yeah. that kind of money. So, yeah, the way they've used Russell, especially, and I've talked about this before, but like, um, for what he meant and what he meant to the league. And then also what he stands for from a, from standpoint of excellence and success and how social justice to social.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and what he meant, how he ties into the sixties and how important the league was back then. But then to have him there, when they realized Bill Russell should just be at the finals every year and he should present the trophy, and then

that became a thing. And then when they realized we should just actually name the trophy after him, and he never actually won a finals MVP because the first year they had it was his last finals, and actually Havlicek should have won. They gave it to Jerry West,

which was Jerry West. Jerry West was really good though in that series. I know, but they gave it, he lost, his team lost. Havlicek was amazing in that series. But anyway, Russell never won. And now the trophy is named after him. So he gets to just win every year. But, but yeah, like with the hall of fame and stuff to not have, I'm sure there's most of the older, older guys probably aren't going to be there from a safety standpoint. I wouldn't imagine they will be. And Russell probably will be. I don't know. Russell's unbelievable to me how he still makes it to all these things. You know, he's a West Coast guy now. It's not an easy trip. So I don't, I don't know that he'll go there. I think he's a guy that goes to the finals. I don't know about, uh, about now my Hegan son, like I

said, in Connecticut this year, but I can't wait. I love it. I'm going to have a great time. And I always come out of there with something I didn't know. I always get two or three kind of interesting stories

that I didn't know about because these guys are comfortable. And, you know, we're all comfortable. We're all dressed up and we're having a cocktail and it's a nice environment. Well, you also have MJ

will be there this year. And MJ kind of riding a little bit of a high here as a Charlotte Hornets owner, where he basically does this Kemba-Rogere exchange, which couldn't have worked out better. And they get Rogere at two thirds the price. They have the Hayward thing, which until he got hurt looked brilliant,

but everybody was like, they overpaid for that. They made some good draft picks. And then the coup de grace, they kind of outwitted the Warriors and the T-Wolves on LaMelo. The more I talk to people, I am convinced that he tanked his interviews with Charlotte. Really? I mean, with Minnesota and Golden State.

So to go to Charlotte. I think he wanted to go to Charlotte. I think he did the bare minimum with everybody else. And I think that's where he wanted to go to Charlotte. I think he wanted to go to Charlotte. I think he did the bare minimum with everybody else. And I think that's where he wanted to go. And I think MJ knew it and Charlotte knew it. And you look back at that draft now and this Golden State, I still feel like Wiseman is going to be really good. I don't know if that's the right team for him.

I defended the pick for months and months, but now I look at that and I'm like, it just would have been more fun if Flamelo went to the Warriors with the team they have, especially with this small ball version of what they have. Oh my God, it would have been amazing. It would have been. And you know, he's the runaway rookie of the year.

And with all due respect to Anthony Edwards, who's had a nice year, but if you look at the advanced metrics, it's not even close. And you know, the big challenge of voting all these awards this year is games missed, right? How many is too many? And Lomelo Ball to me, and I was using this comparison because we were talking about Jokic and Embiid with somebody with

the GM the other day. And, you know, Embiid missed 20 games and Jokic has played in every game and played exceptionally well in every game. And the reason that matters so much is because it was close, right? Those two were close. It's not close between LaMelo Ball and Anthony Edwards, except for the games missed. And so now that he's back and playing, I'm sorry. You just, you're like, nope, I got, you know, this is LaMelo's all the way. Well, he's got, he got up to 48. I think he'll get to 50 by the end of the season,

which is where you need to be. I think where it gets tougher, and I'm sure you're trying to figure out your balance too. I've been doing it all day. All day. The LeBron one is really tough now. That's the hardest one. He missed a few more games there for what they said was

he re-injured his ankle. You don't think so? I'll just leave it at that. Oh, okay. I'm going to lay off that one. But LeBron's only played 43 games. I know. I've got him.

Even if he comes back for the last two, he's at 45. That's a lot. He's missed more than a third of the season. I know. When we have as many all-NBA guys as we have. Hold on, though. I want to, I want to get to that a little bit later. I want to do the MJ thing really fast with you.

The Charlotte thing. He's such a competitive guy. The most competitive basketball player we've ever had, other than Russell. Those are the two. They're in the all time pantheon of the ruthless cutthroat. All they wanted, all they cared about was winning.

Kobe's third. Kobe's Kobe was winning. Kobe's third. Kobe's third. Kobe's third. Very close third. Very close third. Go ahead. And he becomes an owner and he's just not successful at it

for years and years and years and years. You know him a little bit. How much did it bug him? How can you be that competitive but then not be successful for like over a decade at something? Well, because I think it's, so when he was talking, when you're talking about being competitive on the basketball court, he could control every single thing that he needs to control to fix it. That's

not true here. You've got the economics of the league and as wealthy as Michael Jordan is, you know how wealthy these other guys are. It's different. It's different. And Charlotte's a small market team. And I think he came to grips with the reality of that very quickly. And so there are constraints on him that aren't as simple as, let me just go in the gym and practice my fall away. Let me increase my shooting to three-point range. It's not that simple. It's not like you can outwork people in this situation. So I think that's one thing. I think all of these older players that get involved in the front office, they have to tweak their way of thinking just like we do as journalists, right? Because we're old, I guess we're kind of old time journalists now. Do we

agree? Yeah. We're in the OG category. So you have to, because you have all these new metrics available to you, you can't just say, I don't believe in that stuff like Barclay does. You got to dive into it and decide, okay, yes, this matters. How much does my eye test still matter? Some of it does. And I think there's a learning curve there. And I think Michael's probably gone through a learning curve, just like everybody else that got involved. I remember Bird talking about all the way back when he was with the Pacers. And, you know, analytics, people think analytics just started 15 years ago. I mean, they've existed forever

in a more rudimentary form, in a more, you know, and some teams were more advanced than others. And I just remember them all telling me, Kevin McHale, Kevin McHale resisted, resisted, resisted the data in front of him because his eyes told him something else.

So I think the great ones especially have to find a way to reconcile what hard data is telling you and what you're when you're watching on the floor, what it tells you. And if you can marry those two, you're going to you're going to be you're going to do OK. And it takes a while to get there, I think. So, yeah, Mikhail's the worst version of this because I think he, and he's talked about it, he had that attitude of like, I played with some wild cards before. I don't care if this guy has some baggage. I want to gravitate toward the talent. And when it worked out, it worked out when he had Sprewell and

Cassell, who probably shouldn't have had, he had like a little bit of a spotty reputation and probably shouldn't have. Sprewell, definitely, for deserved reasons. But then all of a sudden, you're gravitating toward the Ricky Davis types and that's when it goes sideways. But I always think he went talent, talent, talent all the time. And I think with MJ, the biggest mistake he made was just,

it never seemed like he understood the ramifications of like, if I give this contract out and it doesn't work out, it actually hurts me for a couple of years. I think he looked at it like, I need somebody, I'm going to get this guy. So I don't know if he's gotten better at that, but the Rozier Kemba thing is the first time where you could look at something and be like, Oh, that was actually kind of shrewd. They, and it certainly didn't seem shrewd at the time,

right? Paying Kemba 30 million a year when they knew his knee wasn't a hundred percent versus here's Rozier 19 to 20 million a year. He's going to work his ass off and that's actually a better way for us to spend money. So that's a win. And then Lombello, I,

you know, assuming that Lombello, that's where he wanted to go. They kept that pretty quiet. You know, they, MJ was never like salivating. We never heard stuff about, oh my God, Charlotte wants him so bad. They kind of laid low and it was smart. Well, you're never going to hear that with Jordan. I mean, that's not how he operates. You know, he's just not, he's operates in a vacuum in many ways, but you know, you mentioned Terry Rozier and I was just filling out my ballot. We'll get to that later, but you know, he's just not. He operates in a vacuum in many ways. But, you know, you mentioned Terry Rozier and I was just filling out my ballot. We'll get to that later. But, you know, he was on my most improved list because, my God, he just keeps getting better and better and better. And I spent a lot of time with Terry when he was in Boston. I liked him so much. I really did. He was easy to be around. And, you know, he was a gamer and he he gave the like one of the greatest quotas of all time when, you know, the previous year, everybody got hurt and he got to play a lot. And then they all came back and he wasn't playing hardly nearly as much.

And he said, I felt like I just went from being being the driver to someone sitting in the backseat. Or, you know, I mean, it was just right. He really just wanted to go somewhere and show everybody what he had. And I'll I'll be honest. I didn't think he could. And I was wrong. I was dead wrong. He's so much fun to watch. And look, he still has moments. We're not ready to anoint him as an all-NBA player or anything. But whatever Jordan saw, he was right about that.

Maybe it was just that insatiable thirst to be better and to prove people wrong, which is always a good thing to motivate a team. I wish some of the Boston Celtics had a little more of that in them, eh? Well, I mean, you think like Rozier, because he was so bad in that game seven against Cleveland. Yeah, but they all were. Well, that's, but I think with him, for some reason that got hung on him because it made people forget that how important he was when they, they won two playoff rounds. They took Cleveland to a game seven and, you know, for the most part,

he's pretty essential as a young point guard. It wasn't supposed to be playing that much. Then the next year you throw it away. That team was a mess. Um, I think, I mean, we'll get into some of Danny's mistakes in a second, but I think bringing Rozier back versus selling high on him, heading into the last year of his deal, I think is a top three Danny mistake from the last three years. And we talked about that at the time. In fact, I even feel like you and I did a podcast at the time saying they have to move Rozier. Inexplicable. There was no way he was going to be happy. And the driver passenger thing is a really good analogy because he had the car keys during this playoff run.

There were scary Terry t-shirts. Everybody loved them. And there was no way he was going to be happy the next year. And it was really weird that Ainge didn't see that because he'd been on teams that had too many guys. He was on the 83 Celtics. But that, if I could say one thing about the Celtics that they seem to be missing over and over again, me anyway is when someone on their team isn't happy and just because they don't complain or whatever i mean terry rosier made himself pretty clear but like when like al horford wasn't happy on the celtics you know and hayward wasn't hayward wasn't either right and so and they seemed it almost seems like they're the last to know or if they're not the last to know they're the last to know, or if they're not the last to know, they're the last to act on it. You know, like they were shocked when Al Horford took

that deal in Philly. And remember, everybody kind of thought this is, this is a bit of a disaster. Now he went to a place where they, you know, 90% of the NBA is about fit, worst fit possible for Al Horford, right? Trying to play on that team with that roster before they had all those perimeter shooters that they now have. And now Al Horford, have you ever seen such a precipitous drop off? The guys in no man's land in Oklahoma city, they're paying him not to play. I mean, it's crazy to me. And yeah, with Horford, there's this, and Kevin loves like this too, this weird class of guys we have now in the NBA, these kind of a couple of years past when they peaked stars who had these giant salaries and teams that it doesn't make sense for them to play. You know,

like Kevin Love played last night and really hurt the Cavaliers because they beat the Celtics because he was good last night. That doesn't help them. OKC was like, we're not letting this happen without Horford. They sent him packing. Right. Although Al Horford is like such a good soldier. I mean, and Kevin Love is not, and he'll be the first to admit it. He's had multiple outbursts, the one that was somewhat unforgivable, throwing the ball in bounds and all that. And he apologized for it and what have you, but Al Horford's never, has he ever said a controversial thing? Has he ever been anything but helpful to young players? And I'm not criticizing Oklahoma City. I understand exactly why they did it, 100%. But I was saying to one of my editors the other day,

someone should sit down and talk to Al Horford. What a story. Seriously. He's probably in the Bahamas. Why do you think Horford wasn't happy with the Celtics, out of curiosity? Well, I think it was the year Kyrie was there, and there was so much up and down and in and out. But they all loved Kyrie it was great

it wasn't his fault at all I think there was the more I talked to guys present and former that were on that team there was a bigger divide than I realized in terms of you know Marcus Morris and Kyrie were in sync

and Marcus Morris people could say what they want about him, but he had the kind of toughness and no-nonsense behavior and the willingness to go at the young guys and sometimes even embarrass them. And I think they need more of that. Now, I know with Jalen Brown, Jalen Brown handled that so beautifully. He came out of it. He's like, we're fine. I learned from it, whatever. But it was Morris and Tatum and Kyrie over here and everybody else trying to figure out how to stay out, stay away from the shrapnel, you know? So I think for everybody, that was a super tough year. And, you know, like I remember asking

Terry Rozier about Kyrie and he's like, I said, you know, do you feel for Kyrie? Cause he had had some issues. He goes, feel for Kyrie. Why would I feel for Kyrie, man? He's getting minutes, money, fame. He's got a ring. I don't feel bad for him. And you could understand where he was coming from. And then of course, Hayward, he got hurt. So I think it was just not at all what Al had envisioned for their team. And it was surprising when he went to Philly. And so Al goes, Kyrie goes, and that's a whole other kettle of fish, as my mom would say.

And then Gordon goes, and those are three guys that walk away. I want to hit that in a second because we have to talk about this subject. So let me take a quick break, though. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research.

And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. So you brought up the Celtics and you brought up that fateful summer 2019. Sorry, listeners, you're gonna have to hear me talk about the Celtics for 15 minutes. I don't know how much longer Shaughnessy is going to be writing. Yeah. But there is now

a curse of Isaiah Thomas book sitting there for somebody. 100%. And look, I didn't feel good about it when it happened. I thought it was

a very smart trade. They cashed in. Oh, you had to do it. They had to do it. And Kyrie, he was such a blue chipper. And, you know, they're giving up a pick that turned out to be the eighth pick. But from a karma standpoint, it felt shitty.

I never was able to reconcile my feelings about it because of how much I loved Isaiah Thomas of the Celtics and what he meant to the fan base and the stuff with his family and the fact that he played hurt and he was such a warrior. And it was like the moment he had outlived his usefulness in any capacity, they just flipped them into whatever they did. The same thing with Jay Crowder. Right.

But see, I don't think that's what happened with Isaiah Thomas. I think, and I think they were, they would have moved Isaiah Thomas even before that. In fact, I think I wrote that at one point and Danny came out, a very rare thing for him, and really publicly chastised me for that, Celtics were really in was, remember the backup, the Brinks truck, because he was, he was an all NBA player. He was in the all-star game. He was amazing. Right. But you and I both know he wasn't going to be worth the money that the Celtics were going

to be forced to have to pay him. You know, that take away your heart for a minute, put on your basketball acumen hat. And you know, you know, that he wasn't, even though that was an amazing, magical season, that wasn't the long view of him and his career. That just wasn't. Well, the thing that worried me with him the most was just the injury factor because of the falls that he took. You know, it was like watching a running back just getting annihilated, you know, five times a game or something. And here's the thing about that. So it was the hip, right?

The hip problem. Come to find out, I found out this much later, he had two bad hips. And that was true for years before he even came to Boston. So this was something that he already had when he came to Boston. So now, of course, it got exacerbated by that horrible fall. And then the injury became something that completely changed the trajectory of his career in a way that none of us wanted that to happen. I mean, it's tragic, you know, in so many ways.

And he was a really fun guy to be around and really, you know, infectious personality and all of that. But the Celtics were hoping, praying for a way to get out of that. To flip him into something. Yeah. And there was Kyrie. I can't fault the Celtics. I just can't. I can't fault them for making that trade.

Everybody knew it was a good trade. I can't fault them either. I guess my issue, and it's not an issue. It's just the way it played out. Well, yeah. And could anybody have changed that? I don't know the answer to that, man. No, my issue is there was something cutthroat about it.

Right, right. And it was viewed that way throughout the league. You're right about that, Bill. Yeah, you're absolutely right. So that piece is the piece that I think right about that, Bill. Yeah, you're absolutely right. So that piece is the piece that I think matters because I think the other players saw it. They saw what happened. They saw everything Isaiah did for them for a couple of years. And then the moment he outlived his usefulness, they dumped him. Oh, that's, yeah. Yeah. I think that's fair. I think that's fair.

And same thing with Crowder and- The Gordon Hayward thing. Yep. They were chanting Hayward's name before. And all that stuff. And I don't, by the way, I don't know if this was avoidable for the Celtics because they had a very clear plan, right? They ended up with the Tatum Brown picks. They knew that they were headed toward this world. They, they signed Horford in 2016, which was, they really wanted Durant. Horford was an unbelievable consolation prize. So they have heading into 2017 that summer, they have Horford and Jalen consolation prize. So they have heading into 2017, that summer, they have Horford and Jalen and Tatum basically,

and plus some other really good pieces. They know they're going to have cap space and they have this grand plan. We're going to have Kyrie. We're going to have Anthony Davis. We're going to have Tatum, Jalen Brown. Like it all makes sense on paper, but I just look back at that slight karma,

like the fact that Hayward gets hurt in the first game. You go back and you look at this stuff and you're like, the gods just didn't want this to happen for them. Let me ask you this question, because this is a question I've always wondered about. If Kyrie hadn't become so disenchanted in Boston, if he hadn't soured so badly on that, would Anthony Davis considered going to Boston? Or was he never, ever going to go there the way his father said? That's the question I want to know.

The answer to. I think the moment Clutch even starts talking to him, it's over. He's going to the Lakers. That's it. The impression you got, though, was that this was a deep-seated thing about Boston and the Celtics for whatever reason. And I don't know what it's based on or

where it came from. And if that's the case, again, were the Celtics the last to know that? If the grand plan was to land Anthony Davis, isn't that something you should know in advance? That there might be some trepidation on his part about ever coming to Boston, no matter who's there. Well, so, all right, let's go backwards. So they, they, they know they have a chance at Durant, right? They don't know if they're getting them, but they know they're in the mix. They know, like, if he doesn't decide he's going to go to golden state and he doesn't go to, okay, see that, that he's going to come to Boston.

They're at, they're in the mix. Now, Katie said, after the fact, I was never going to Boston, whatever, but they had to play that out. They land Horford. That's great. Next year, they know they're getting Hayward. I think they know there's a Stevens connection. I think they know that's coming. But then you go to the Paul George piece of this where everyone forgets this, but they almost traded that Tatum pick for Paul George during that 2016, 17 season. Right. And then during that,

during that draft. Yeah. Because I never know what's true with the Celtics anymore. You talk to GMs and they're like, nah, that was never going to happen. I'm like, well,

I heard yet. No, that was never going to have, they, they just make you want to think it was going to happen. So was it going to happen? Yeah. But why would the Celtics,

why would the Celtics make anyone want to think that? In retrospect, that's a terrible trade if they gave up the pick that became Tatum. I think during that draft, it does seem like they really thought they were honing in on a Paul George deal in 2017 with the pick that they ended up giving up to Kyrie. And then Pritchard went sideways and went to OKC. So they don't get Paul George. And that's a good fork in the road too, because that then now they end up with Kyrie, Kyrie, a guy who, you know, within the month two of the second year he's there, you know, it's ending badly. Paul George, I don't know how it would have ended, but.

I think it would have ended badly. Paul Georgeorge probably you know paul george is kind of he's like kairi jr a little bit in that think about it he's in indiana they give him everything there and if you believe what he says he wanted anthony davis to come there he was trying to get them to do it and they wouldn't pay for it if that's true that's just unbelievable i don't know if that's true and so then he you know he kind of blows his way out of there, goes to OKC, and they have a chance to do something, right? He and Russ.

And then all of a sudden, he's blowing his way out of there. And now he's got no place left. I mean, this is it for him. So we're aligned on this one. They actually are better off if they don't get Kyrie or Paul George, in retrospect. Even though both of us defend the Kyrie trade, but they retrospect, even though the, I eat both of us. I suppose I retread, but like they're better off just taking call and sexting.

Yeah. The Kyrie trade did the men because Kyrie. And again, I'm not blaming Kyrie. He was a free agent. He had every right to go wherever he went. He didn't try to force his way out of there for a trade. He did that to Cleveland.

He didn't do that to Boston. He just, he just said like, I'm out of here. I'm going, I'm going as a free agent. And of course, by then he's talking to Duran and there he and DeAndre Jordan, they're on the boat there together,

and they're all going to play. That's all in the works behind the scenes. And so that torpedoes everything. So now you're like, what the heck do we do? And then you grab Kemba Walker. Well, then that leads to that summer where Horford leaves and Kyrie leaves. And now you're in full panic mode. And now you're heading into Kemba. You don't know about his knees, but you can't even risk not getting him. In a weird way, they're better off if nothing happens. They just take Sexton or whoever.

And then they're in the mix for whatever. Or they keep Rozier. Well, they keep Rozier. And then they're in the mix for whatever trade- Or they keep Rozier. Well, they keep Rozier, and then they're in the mix for whatever trade package is coming two years from now. The reason I bring this up is I do think, look, they're probably going to be playing this on the Felger and Maserati show within an hour of when this goes up. I do think probably things have to change organizationally.

I think something will happen. Yeah, you've said that. You've said that. If you're making the case of, wait, nothing should happen. This wasn't anyone's fault. You could lay out a case for like, well, look, the Sacramento pick didn't come through. What was the other pick they had? Memphis. Memphis. And Memphis. Those picks, they were banking on those. Those didn't come through. It was great to line those up. Look, the Kyrie thing, that was played perfectly. He just flaked, um, the Kemba thing. Look, he got hurt. The Hayward thing was done brilliantly. He just, he had one of the worst injuries in it. You could, you could make the case for anything,

but I'm hitting a point where I'm going to ask you who's on the Celtics last year. You would bet your life is actually on the Celtics last next year. Because here's my list. Tatum. Yes. Brad Stevens. Yes. Wick. Well, yeah, he's the owner. Yeah. Yeah. So there's three. Okay. And I'm going to go 97% on Jalen Brown. That's my fourth. Yeah. I think Jalen Brown is part of the solution, not part of the problem. Good. I agree. I just... Yeah. No, no. I see what you're doing. So the question becomes this.

And I think everyone else, I have no idea if they're on the team next year. Right. Including some of the GMs and everybody else. Well, and that's really the question, isn't it? So they've been operating for so long as a family almost, almost like an old mom and pop family, if you will. Uh, you know, that ownership, Wick, uh, Pags, those guys, they've been around a long time. They're very tight with Danny.

Pags is really tight with Danny, good friends. And, uh, you know, it's a friendship, not just a business relationship. So that's always a little tricky, isn't it? When things don't maybe quite go the way it wanted. But we know that both PAGS and WIC are very, very competitive and they care about winning. And you can't accuse them of holding back on the purse strings. They were going to almost went out and got Iverson. I always wonder, think about that. If they had ever done that, that I wouldn't have liked, but it would have been fun to watch. And so, you know, you're going along here and, uh, and the team that you allegedly fleeced, the Brooklyn Nets are going to get to the finals

before you are when it's all said and done. And that's a problem. That's a problem, man. That's a problem. So, well, you think like in the history of the Celtics, and I don't think the front office situation is at this point yet, but there's been points over the years. I remember the late 80s when they brought Dave Gavitt in that year where it was like, hey, the red way has gotten stale. What are we going to do? We got to fix this. Same thing after the ML disaster. ML still never got enough credit for just being a train wreck. Yeah. They paid him a million dollars. They paid him a million dollars to do that. So he, he understood exactly what his role was in all of that. That was a lot.

I was going, I was going to those games. He was not tanking at least the first part of the year. He was really honestly trying to win. It was just so bad. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah.

But then they told him, I wrote a story for SI. They then told him, he told me many years later, H1 Walker was going nuts in a game. He was like having the best game of his life. And they all pulled him out. And he goes, what the bleep are you doing to me, ML? I'm like, and he goes, you look tired.

And he goes, and I couldn't even look at him because he knew I was lying. Yeah. They were telling him, no, dude, you got to lose. The last two months of the season, they were trying to lose. So anyway, they have that moment. They bring in Patino. 2004, 2005 range, Wick's in there. He wants his own guy.

That's when they go get Ainge. Right. And now I wonder, like, are we at another crossroads organizationally for like, should there be a new vision? I don't know the answer because I don't know how much... How about just a tweaked one? And by the way, Wick wanted to hire Kevin McHale.

That was his first choice. Interesting. Yeah. But anyway, because back then, Kevin McHale was, you know, pretty highly regarded as a GM and such. Anyway, I understand what you're saying.

I think what you're getting at is that the way it's structured now with Danny, his son Austin, very involved. Mike Z Austin, very involved, Mike Zarin, very involved. They recently added Alison Feaster. And I can tell that the players really respond to her input.

She's a really, really smart basketball mind. A Harvard grad played in the WNBA. I think she was a great addition, but she's someone that hasn't been around the NBA very long. Right. So does it make sense to bring someone else in with a different voice? I'm not saying replacing Danny or Mike or anybody,

but yeah, I don't, I don't think that's ever bad. And, uh, and I think Brad Stevens, who's taken a lot of criticism, uh,

this season and, you know, listen, he'll be the first to say it. Everybody has to take some of the blame. Everybody, every player, every coach, every GM, that's the way that goes. But to put it all on Brad Stevens, as you know,

I've said it on here before, I just will not subscribe to that. Look at the roster he was given. It's just not a roster that can win what everybody thought they should win. Now, did they underachieve? They absolutely did. Was part of that because they far and away lead the league in COVID games missed. Like it's not even close. They're in the 160s and the next team's like 118. They've had injuries. They never had their top seven had never played a minute together. Not one minute. Yeah. So all of that's fine, but it doesn't explain what we just saw last night against Cleveland. Like if you never play and all these guys are out and you have a chance to play, why aren't you just throwing your body

up and into the stands and diving for it? Why is there no pulse of this team? And why was it so predictable? I tweeted this last night and I never tweet anymore, but Scalbrini was like, near the end, he was just like, I can't believe they didn't show up for this basically. I'm really surprised and I'm like, you can't believe it. We've been watching this all year. They don't show up for anything.

They've been down 20. Did you know they've been down by 20 plus 14 times this year? And they've been down by 10 plus like 39 times, something like that. And it's like this team over and over again, just rolls over coming out of the gate.

And it's like, it's really hard for me to, to say that Brad gets no blame for that at all. Oh no. It just is. No, he has to get blamed for that. Of course he does.

Absolutely. He does. But I do think, you know, say what you want about Jay Crowder, Marcus Morris. They keep saying, well, these young guys got spoiled. They went to the conference finals. Well, they did. But they went with Jay Crowder and Marcus Morris and Al Horford and Isaiah Thomas. It was easy when you're the young upstarts that are just going to take the world by

storm and you've got all those vets around you to kind of keep you inside the lines, if you will. Once you become the vets and the expectations are put upon you, that's when you really find out what guys are made of. Now, am I saying that they, you know, that, I mean, listen, Jason Tatum is just, he's a jaw dropping talent. I'm not saying you should move on from him. He's gone up.

He's gone up a big level the last five weeks to offensively. Like something has shifted. You know what, Bill? I did a little straw poll like he's not going to make all NBA. He's not going to make it. No way. Because because of this team and because of the letdowns that he has, when things aren't going for good for him and he gets discouraged, you can see him. His body goes down. It happened in that game, not the Cleveland game, the one before that. And he gets beat. You know, it's almost like the scouting report will say up on the blackboard before a game. If Jason Tatum starts missing shots, make sure you run on him because he won't get back. Now, you don't want anybody in the league to ever say that about you. He's 23 years old. There's plenty of time for him to figure it out, to grow up a little more, to learn about it. But if one of the things I would do if I were Brad Seaman is I would demand more guys like Jay Crowder and Marcus Morris in my locker room, testing and challenging these guys, even though they're not nearly as good as them, but just showing them what it takes to win. Also, I think also in the scouting report is hit Tatum and Brown. They're not going to hit back. They're nice guys.

Yeah. They just are. They're nice guys. Like Mikael was a nice guy too. There's certain guys who can be great, but they're not going to protect themselves. And the Celtics team has gotten the shit kicked out of it this year. Yeah. I mean,

they got rid of Tice who is the one who got beaten up the most, but it's a team that doesn't, doesn't really dish it out and doesn't stand up for itself. And I think the rest of the league sees it and they treat them accordingly. And it's a team that doesn't really dish it out and doesn't stand up for itself. And I think the rest of the league sees it and they treat them accordingly. And it's a bummer. Well, and that brings us back to Isaiah Thomas in a way, doesn't it?

I think Isaiah's Thomas's first game, first or second game as a Celtic, he was ejected. Yeah, in Phoenix. Right? Yeah, remember? That was his first game with the team. And I really, I don't know if he did it on purpose, but I thought the message was like, yo, it says I'm five foot seven.

I'm five foot three. I'm maybe five foot four. And don't you mess with me. Because I'm not going to stand for it. And he set a wonderful tone for them, you know? Well, think about from a culture standpoint. Look at the Knicks, who I do not think have nearly as much talent as the Celtics, but you know, they signed Taj Gibson.

It's like, that's hilarious. He signed Taj Gibson. He's playing crunch time for them. But more importantly, he sticks up for everybody in that team. That's what he does. Yeah. He's super physical. He's tough to play.

They go and get Rose. I was talking to somebody. Rose has been unbelievable. Yeah. He is unbelievable how good he's been. I was talking to somebody at the Knicks about, you know, why do you need Rose? Why don't you give quickly those minutes?

Well, you said that. The coach wants Rose. Well, and there's a reason why he wants him, right? Because again, he's in concert with his coach. He's going to play hard. He's going to play tough. And they've played together at times, as you know. You know, it really hasn't, I don't think it's affected Quickly's development at all. He's a pretty good

six-man candidate, really, if you think about it, D. Rose. Because he believes in his coach. His coach believes in him. There's a thread there. There's a connection there. But that Knicks team has a toughness to them that is really glaring when you then watch the Celtics, you know, and that's all tips. But that's my question with the Celtics team is like, we've seen Stevens have teams that have toughness like that. This roster that they have, it's just not a tough team. And they've gotten knocked around all year.

And they're always behind and trying to claw back. I just look at like, I don't know, that 2019 summer when all those things happen and we're going to look back at that like, man, what a fork in the road that was where you go from Rozier to more expensive Kemba, Horford leaves. You have these three draft, Kyrie leaves. You have these three draft picks. You have 14, 20, 22, you lose the hero coin flip. Then at 14, you take Langford who's shown nothing in two years. And then at 20 and 22, you turn that into Grant Williams and Carson Edwards and a future pick, which you basically give away the next year anyway. And Tybel sitting there and Tybel is like exactly what this team needs. He is a really

tough, bad-ass dude who just wants to, you know, and then the other thing they just have to figure out is, is it was Marcus banged up this year? Is he hitting a different point in his career is the other question for me. Well, and he is, you could argue their best trade piece and that, you know, they'll always be interested in him. Any contending team is going to want to want, be interested in him and use him in a very specialized fashion. That'll help them win games. So. Well, the superstars love him, the older, the, all of them, the vets. They're like, Oh, you win with that guy.

He's the only tough guy in that team and all that. But yeah. And this year, this year you look tired to me and I don't mean tired, like physically, I just mean like, how many times can he scream at them all in the locker room? And that didn't play well. The last year when he did it, it didn't play well among the young guys. They're almost like,

we've heard this before. They should listen a little more closely. Sometimes this happens. You think like the bubble playoffs, it made it seem like this is a team that almost made the finals because it was. And arguably they should have beaten Miami. But you could also say like the bubble playoffs are pretty weird. And if it was a normal playoffs,

it just would have been Milwaukee and Miami or Milwaukee and whoever. And Boston wasn't one of the best two teams in the East. And maybe we were overrated in the beginning. Well, I just think you underrated Miami with that statement because Miami, look at the way the ball moves. The ball gets stuck in the mud all the time with the Celtics. The ball moves with Miami. They might not make all the shots, but it moves. When, you know, when Hero was struggling earlier this season,

no one was upset because he was getting the shots they They wanted just, they just weren't going down and he's come around now he's come around. He's, you know, he's, he's back. I mean, did you see Duncan Robinson the other day? It's like that kid's never going to miss, right? Because the ball's on a string. They're always one step ahead of the defense and, you know, bam out of bio, all his numbers are up from last year. Every number is up from last year. And yet, I don't think he's going to make All-NBA because there's just no room for him. Because really, at the end, when you start talking about Miami, it begins and ends with Jimmy Butler, who's just talking about the opinion.

And, you know, the Celtics allegedly were involved with Jimmy Butler at one time, right? Tell me Jimmy Butler wouldn't be the perfect guy to be with Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. I mean, some feelings might get bruised, but tell me he wouldn't get the best out of those two guys. Wow. So you think Tatum, Brad and Wick and Jalen, those are your four that are back next year? No question.

Yeah. I mean, I know people think Brad Stevens is going to get fired. I'm not one of them. I just don't get that sense at all. There's no way Brad Stevens. Yeah, I don people think Brad Stevens is going to get fired. I'm not one of them. I just don't get that sense at all. There's no way Brad Stevens. Yeah, I don't think so either. And I wouldn't fire him if it were my decision. I wouldn't.

Now, I would talk to him about some things, you know, just like I would the players. Here's what we would like to see. Here's what we haven't seen. I mean, you always have those conversations. Would you trade Brad Stevens to the Pacers for Sabonis? I don't know. Throw it out. What's Brad Stevens

trade value? What do the Pacers make an offer? First round pick? Is this like, can you get a first round pick? First round pick? I'll tell you this.

If Brad Stevens, if they let him go, which they won't for so many reasons. First of all, because I really don't think they want to. But second of all, because he signed that extension, but he'd be unemployed all of like 12 minutes. He still has good standing in the league. By the way, if they would never fire him, if they fired him, the other coaches would lose

their minds. There's like five coaches that all the other coaches respect. And that would be one where people are like, what are you guys doing? Yeah. All right. Let's take a break. And I want to talk quickly, all NBA and the Warriors. What does possible sound like for your business?

It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit, more cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days and the ability to reach further with access to over 1400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. Okay. So the, uh, we believe 2.0 warriors, they are 36, 36 and 26 with Steph Curry now. And to me, you know, we're both trying to figure out our ballots. There's probably never been a tougher year to figure out all the mechanics of this. It's got to be Jokic and then Embiid for your one, two and MVP. And then the three spots open. I think Curry's in my three spot right now because I look at the 36 to 26. I was texting somebody this week about this. They have designed

themselves now. They're like a mid-level college team of four-year seniors. They're a four-year seniors team with like the one good player. Only in this case, the one good player is Steph Curry, one of the 25 best players of all time. They've just figured out how to play with him, use him. Even when a play breaks down,

he'll miss a three, they'll get an offensive rebound. Right. And then it's like, how do we get Steph the ball again? Yeah, it's cool. The way they play together, and they've stumbled

into the small ball thing. We don't need to go into the advanced stats of like, there's just, by any metric, they're just way better since Wiseman went down.

I don't blame him. It's just, it made them play small ball and unleash Draymond and all that stuff. I was going to say, Draymond has been so good too the last couple months

compared to the beginning of the year. That's the underrated part people don't talk about. Yeah, Steph's been Steph. He's been otherworldly. But Draymond's been Draymond. And that just doesn't show up

in the box score, but it shows up in their locker room and it shows up in the way they play. I mean, he's been really, really good. They had an awesome win. Two awesome wins in a row, but they took the lead against Phoenix and Wiggins made this great bank shot

with like a minute left and he comes in and it goes to Draymond and Draymond's making his mean guy face at Wiggins. Just like you could tell he's just like, God, I want to make this guy tougher. I want to make this guy care. And he was just so excited. Wiggins came through. The way, the way Steph and Draymond play together ties into this whole bigger theme that we've talked about. You and I have talked about, I've talked about this pod multiple times about when we have player movement and we have just guys shifting teams two, three years, you lose a bunch of different things. I think the thing you lose that hurts me the most as somebody who loves basketball is just

guys who have played together seven, eight, nine years that just know each other. Yeah. Inside and out. They just know how to make each other better. They're like kind of the last guys like that, that I can think of. Like an old married couple. Yeah. Totally. In a good way. No, in a good way. Well, in a good and a bad way, right? I mean, both really. And part of that is, you know, appreciating one another and not forgetting that the person you're tied to isn't so bad, right?

And I think that happened with all the injuries and everything. They really are a fascinating team. I will tell you this. Curry's high on my list. So let me ask you, I haven't submitted my ballot yet. Me neither. I'm waiting until Monday morning. Right. So I'm but but I've been filling it out. And is it possible for me to do this? Can I have Chris Paul on my second

team all NBA, but have him in the top five of the MVP voting? What do you make of that? Not only is it possible, I have the same thing you're kidding yeah yeah right 100 so like i i mean yokich wins and bead second i don't know about curry third yet i i i do think it's we have to be careful about discounting discounting yannis because he's so big and so strong and he's the reigning mvp and we take him for granted and even though though Steph does these amazing, I mean, the way Steph plays is so amazing and so incredible. You know, Giannis is such an amazing two-way player and they're rounding into form. So I'm back and forth on that a little bit, you know. I have Giannis in my top five, but not, I think I have a Curry CP3 and then Giannis fifth and Dame who should be in the top five.

I just don't know if I have a spot for him right now. Right, right. And he did have that little, the little area time when he was beat up. He said himself, he was beat up and he just wasn't playing that great. And, you know, then it becomes the whole issue that everyone's going to be talking about is games missed. And so we both have him bead. He missed 20 games, you know. Yep.

That is passable. But I don't want to hear from anybody because I'm telling you right now, Durant is not on my ballot. Harden is not on my ballot. Anthony Davis, they are not on my ballot. They're just not. What about LeBron? LeBron is the one I'm still struggling with, and I'll tell you why.

So how many games has he missed? He's only played 43. 43. So that's a low 43. That's a low number. But the 43 games he played, he was in the running as the best player in the league. Right

now, if I'm going to put him on, I'm going to put him on second team and I'm putting him on second team because he missed all those games. I'm not super comfortable with it. But I think he belongs on this ballot. I just think when he was playing, the impact he had was sensational. And that was not true of Anthony Davis for the amount of time he played. It just wasn't. Yeah. What we saw from Davis the last couple games is the first time he's looked like one of the 10 best players in the league. Like the stuff he did against Phoenix was nuts. I'm going to announce my ballot on Sunday on this podcast, ironically. But here's what I have now.

I have Curry and Dame as my backcourt. Not Doncic. Not Doncic. I have Jokic, Giannis, and Luka. I put it forward. Oh, you put him at forward so you left Kawhi

off your first team. Yeah, yeah. To me, he didn't play enough games. Yep. Got it. I want my first team all-NBA

to be at least as close for reflection as possible to these were probably the five of the six guys or the, the unquestionably the best five guys in the league this year. And I think those five, those five and Embiid were the

best players. And for me, it's like, I'm just not putting Embiid as a forward on the first team. Like I'm not doing that. No, you can't. You can't. Right. Let me ask you this. Did you consider Jimmy Butler? So I have Butler second team. I have right now Embiid, Kawhi, Randall, and then backcourt CP3 and Butler. So I'm cheating just a teeny bit, putting Butler at guard, but I do feel like he's a forward guard.

Oh, you can put Butler anywhere. Yeah. You can put Butler anywhere. I'm fine with that. Yeah, I'm fine with that too. And then third team, Gobert, Paul George, LeBron. But if LeBron misses like two more games,

if he can't get to 45 games, I'm cutting him. You're cutting him, okay. Bradley Beal. Okay. And then that last spot is like Kyrie, Booker, Mitchell, all those dudes. I'm just going to wait until Sunday. No Zion for you.

I wanted to put Zion in. When he missed those games and they missed the playoffs, and I just, I can't justify it. The missing the playoffs, I couldn't get past it. So I, I'm similar. I mean, almost everything that you've said. I just don't know what to do with LeBron because then there's a domino effect.

But if I do put LeBron on, I will put him on second team because if I'm going to put him on, I'm penalizing for missed games by not putting him first team. Okay? But, I mean, the missed games are the only thing, right?

So, I do have Zion third team. So, I left off... So, I have zion getting the lebron spot if i bump lebron right and then i have kyrie irving 13 god that's why i was leaning too and it bothers me because i know but he basically disappeared twice right but he played enough games he's been now the funny thing is ironically you could argue he's the third best net, but the other two Harden and Durant, I can't even consider them. I can't even consider them. I just can't. Too many missed games for Durant. Harden missed games second team because I had Jimmy Butler and LeBron second team as my forwards. And then I had Butler as a forward. But here's what I did to get Paul George on. I snuck him on as a guard for my third team, Paul George.

That's totally defensible. So I left Beal off because and it was hard to leave Beal off, really hard to leave Beal off. And I've voted for Beal in the past. You know, you can vote for him every year. You're going to have a Bradley Beal debate, third team. The team isn't very good, but he's otherworldly. He's fighting with Steph Curry for, you know, the all-time scorer in the league this year.

You know, you leave Simmons off. You leave Tatum off. You leave Donovan Mitchell off who's missed games. Zach Levine, I thought was hard to leave off. Bam out of bio. Tough to leave off, but I did. So that's where I'm at. And then there's like, I can't believe I'm saying this and he wasn't on

anywhere close to my ballot, but there's a Westbrook case at least. Oh yeah, there is. Sure there is. And people will make that now, especially neither am I. So here's why I had Beal 13 and why I think I'm keeping him there. I love that now, especially neither am I. So here's why I had Beal 13 and why I think I'm keeping him there. I love that they,

he was in trade rumors and said he didn't want to leave. They start out like complete shit. Westbrook looks hurt. Yep. He doesn't say anything. He's just like, we got to fix this.

No, he's good like that. He's always like that. Yeah, he is. And they fixed it and he played great and he averaged 32 a game. And I feel like he genuinely gives a shit. I don't feel like that. Yeah, he is. And they fixed it. And he played great. And he averaged 32 a game. And I feel like he genuinely gives a shit. I don't feel like that ever changed.

No, it hasn't. I love Beal. And I like Donovan Mitchell a lot. It's just those missed games for him now. You know, Donovan Mitchell's had a great year. He's really had a good year too. But who do you bump? It's not who...

It's never that the guy doesn't deserve it. I mean, look at Zach Levine last year to this year. Everything we wanted Zach Levine to do, right? Everything we asked you to do. So Zach Levine, here's your off-season stuff. He did everything, but their team isn't there. And Tatum, my God, he had some of the most incredible individual performances of the year. He's just amazing. But you can't, I just don't think you can vote for anybody from the Boston just amazing. But you can't, I just don't think you can vote for anybody from the Boston Celtics. You just can't.

You can't. And also, you made the, you used the key word there, individual performances. Right. But didn't make anyone else better. So the Kyrie case. Yeah, Kyrie, I just.

It kills me. If he gets, he could get to 54 games, which puts him in range. For me, it's like, it just feels like somebody from Brooklyn should make the team. They finished with the third best record, fourth best record in the league.

They're going to be a two seed. They're the team that's the favorite to win the finals and they're just not going to have an all-NBA player. It seems off to me. I'm just imagining how we'll look at this five years from now. I think you can overthink this stuff. I don't have Kyrie's numbers in front of me,

but they're pretty good. Kyrie's, I mean, do you have it right there? Yeah, he's 27, six and five, and he's basically

a 50-40-90 guy. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. What is the shooting percentages? Because that's what I care more about with Kyrie. Because Kyrie can always score, but it's,

can he score effectively? If you round up, if you round up, he's a 50-40-90 guy. Yeah, what's his true shooting percentage? True shooting... I like that stuff. I don't have,

but it's over 60. I saw it a couple days ago. Yeah, so anything over 60, I think, sorry, I'm reaching down because I dropped my phone. You know, you just got to give that serious consideration.

You know what the most fun one is that I've heard the most arguments on is coach of the year. Yeah, so I'm back and forth myself on that. I mean, so every, I think a lot of people vote for Tibbs, right? I mean, the turnaround has been unbelievable and it's not like that roster is loaded with incredible future hall of famers, right? So Tibbs is an obvious vote, but Quinn Snyder, too, to me, should get a lot of consideration because they changed. They lost in the first round last year with a similar, right? Pretty much a similar roster, right? For the most part. And although you lose Jay Crowder,

who is important to you. And yet he just looks at it and says, we got to change the way we play. We're going to shoot threes quicker. We're going to play quicker. We're going to shoot three sooner and we're going to shoot, pull up three pointers, which is like unheard of, right? And they start playing and, you know, Mike Conley didn't really fit last year.

He was injured and now he fits so well. And so Quinn Snyder, of course, Monty Williams. I like him too. I thought he he's done, you know, people, people say, well, it's Chris Paul. It's not that simple. It's never that simple. He made everything fit. You know, he's, he's taken that bench and made it one of the, you know, the deepest benches and it plays guys the right way knows, you know, like he's one of those coaches that if a player's playing well, he'll, he'll ride them instead of looking at a sheet and saying, oh, usually by now I bring in this guy at the four minute mark and say, he goes, no, no, no, he's playing good. I'm leaving him out there. I like coaches like that. So those are three of the ones. Those are three of my choices.

I have Monty first. You should. He's a great choice. You can't go wrong with, I don't think, any of those three guys. Because, first of all, Chris Paul, he's an unbelievable point guard. I don't think he's that easy to coach. Right. He's a dominant guy. He's an alpha dog. And I know Doc Rivers had trouble coaching him. You know, I don't think he's a pivot.

I just wrote 2,800 words about this. Yeah. You know? No. He's going to do it his way. So to be able to manage him and make it so you're empowering Chris, but you're also empowering your own position as being coach of a team is hard. I think that's a weird team. They have a lot of young guys. Aiton is fragile as hell in all these different directions. They've done a great job with him. And I don't know, I've been impressed by him. There's one guy that's missing from this, though. What's that?

Because I'm voting for Monty, but I think there's four good candidates. You mentioned three. And then there's one who's not getting mentioned at all. Nash. Yeah. He's a good candidate. He is. He is.

That team has had, what, 25 players? Yeah. 27 players? They had LaMarcus Aldridge show up and he was gone within two games. They had broken down Blake Griffin show up. He somehow became their crunch time center. Yeah, he's no longer broken down. They've had massive upheaval.

They're going into the season with Durant and Kyrie who've never played together. During the season, they trade Levert and they trade Jared Allen. They're bringing Harden and everything that comes with him. And then Durant's 33 games, Kyrie's 52,

Harden's 35 right now. Levert played 12 for them. I just think like that's one of the craziest situations a coach has ever been in. And yet we never heard about dysfunction. I actually like the way they run stuff offensively. I think they're really smart.

And the fact that they have the record they have is kind of unbelievable to me. So I just feel like he should be mentioned. He should. I agree. But I would still vote for our guy, Monty. And then rookie of the year, we said LaMelo. Okay.

Yeah. All right. That's it. That's all I got for you. Jackie, have fun in Springfield. Say hi to all the legends for us. I will. Whatever ones are there.

It's going to be, I think it's going to be a very emotional weekend because I just think even before Vanessa Bryant gets up there, it's just going to everybody's, it's what everybody's going to be thinking about, you know, Kobe. Do we know when we're going to know about the next class? Is that something that's decided this weekend or is it later? I think it is. No, I should know that. But I think it happens this weekend.

Yeah, I think you do hear very, very soon. I do. Because we have Pierce, I assume will make it unless there's some sort of weird stupid penalty. I'd be surprised if he doesn't. That would be ridiculous. I'd be surprised. Yeah.

And then after that, I'm not sure who's going to make it. Well, it's, yeah. So you, I mean, it'll be interesting to see,

does the, do the people that vote value defense, right? Because you've got two defensive guys, Ben Wallace and, and Cooper, Michael Cooper. I mean,

Russell, I think he'll get in. Yeah. Coach Bill Russell. Yeah. He'll get in. I think, you know, just mean, Russell, I think he'll get in. Coach Bill Russell. Yeah, he'll get in, I think. Just think about first black coach wins the championship as a player coach, and not only that, but just the social significance of everything he stood for while he was doing that. I mean, if you look at just him strictly, his one loss record over

I don't know, what did he coached five or six seasons or something. That's not what you're looking at here in this case. So I would expect him to get into. And C-Web, Bosh, I think maybe waits a year, but C-Web is the one I'm the most interested in. I think C-Web should already be in. I know we've argued about this in the past. I'm pro C-Web. I just think he was an underachiever.

Does that make you a Hall of Famer? I don't know. Chris Bosh will get in. I think Chris Bosh will get in. Doesn't the college stuff matter at all, though, with C-Web? Why doesn't that factor in? Well, yeah, it should. No, it should.

I'm sure it does. I'm sure whoever's voting looks at that for sure. I think Chris Weber will probably get in. I'm just, if it were me, I'd have a hard time. I think I'm a hard voter though. I don't know. Compared to others, I'm not sure. I mean, I always put a really strong weight on two-way players and what they do on the defensive end of the floor.

I would vote for Michael Cooper. Michael Cooper never made an all-star team. But he never made an all-star team because he was playing with Worthy and Kareem and Magic. But he was one of the singular best defensive players around. And he changed games. He helped them win games by the way he played. And I don't know what his career average was. I bet it's under 10 points a game. I don't have it in front of me. But I would vote for Michael Cooper because I guess I saw it with my own eyes as a very young writer,

saw how he changed games. And what he did to Larry Bird. There's also guys like Michael Cooper in the Hall of Fame, which is the best case for it. Right. That type of guy is in there. Alvin Robertson, right?

Alvin Robertson. Yeah, exactly. The C-Web thing is tough because I think he's an iconic college player and I think that has to matter and I think

from 99 to 04 he's toe to toe with Duncan and KG and Dirk and even made a first team all NBA

and you know honestly should have won the 2002 title if certain officiated things hadn't happened. But anyway, I'll be interested to see what happens. Jackie, enjoy the weekend. Thank you. Bye, Bill. All right, Warren Sharp is here.

He is on the Ringer NFL show a bunch of times, especially during the season. We have him on twice a week. And then you can read him at Sharp Football Analysis. He is the man that taught me that the schedule and the schedule release, which I always thought was just a money grab, attention grab by the NFL. And it was stupid. And who cares?

And I already know who my team's playing. You were the one who basically taught me single-handedly. No, no, actually, there's some real shit that's going on here with the schedule release. Specifically, teams getting fucked over, how they schedule certain things. Give us your Tom Brady tidbit to start. Oh, well, there's an interesting Tom Brady take because of the way that the NFL scheduled it. I'm guessing they look at a lot of different things. Some are less important than others

and too many things they ignore. Tom Brady is only 1,154 passing yards away from setting the all-time passing record, which is currently held by Drew Brees, obviously has retired. Brady, at his average of almost 290 passing yards a game from last year, will break the all-time

passing yards record when he goes back to Foxborough and plays Bill Belichick and the Patriots in week four. Unless Bill Belichick's like, this isn't happening on my watch. We're stopping this guy. Brady goes in, he needs like 298 yards or something. Belichick's just playing seven D-backs. It's Sunday night football. You know, Chris Collinsworth and Al Michaels are going to be talking about it. It's going to be built up all week by the league. And yeah, we could see what Belichick tries to plan to make sure that doesn't happen, but it's certainly going to be the big storyline heading into that game, I bet. Belichick's playing 11 defensive backs.

So you always talk about the teams that got dicked over by the schedule, and there's always one team that plays like four games in nine days. I know it's not nine days, but it's usually like four games in 17, four games in 18. Who got dicked over this year? Who won the award? Who won the third in the Punchbowl schedule award? This one goes to the Philadelphia Eagles, which it's ironic because I did a 10-year study of the prior decade looking at inequalities amongst the NFL and how they dole out the

schedule because they cannot control, as you know, who you play. That is set by last year's results. But what they can control is when you play these teams, how many days of rest you have, how many days of rest your opponent has, all those types of things. They are in complete and total control. And over the last decade, there are teams that get screwed and there are teams that benefit a lot. And the Eagles have gotten screwed to the tune of having the 31st best prep and rest ranking by this decade long and that analytical study that I did. Wow. So they were already entering this season in a, in a bad spot. And then the NFL decided

this year, usually there's a couple of teams, but this year there's only one who has to play four games that are separated by only 17 days. The only way that's possible is you have a Monday night and you play a short rest and you play Sunday. So that's only, that's possible is you have a Monday night and you play a short rest and you play Sunday. So that's less rest than usual. Then you play another Sunday game. Then you have another short rest game on Thursday. That's the only way you can play four and 17 and you can never play four with less than 17. This year, the Eagles are the only team who gets it.

Not only is that brutal for the Eagles, look at this. The two times during that stretch that they play short rest games. So that Sunday game after Monday night and a Thursday game that's after a Sunday game, they play the Chiefs and the Buccaneers, the two teams that went to the Super Bowl last year. Not only is that run terrible, but the next seven games, five of them are on the road. Only six other teams play five road games in seven games total. So the Eagles get that brutal four and 17 plus five road in seven games. It's absolutely absurd. Is there research? Who won the four and 17 lottery last year? And what happens to the team? Are there more injuries? Like what are the ramifications?

It's not just the four and 17, because that only happens once, but there is research to suggest that the less rest that your team has in a given season, the more injured you end up being. And that is proven. And, you know, I look at rest in a variety of different ways in this study. One way is just like net rest differential. Your opponent has seven days, you have four, so you are minus three. But in general, I'm also looking at just on an individual basis, how many games do you play where your opponent has over a week to prepare versus under a week? How many games do you enter with more rest than your opponent does? How many games do you play where your opponent has over a week to prepare versus under a week? How many games do you enter with more rest than your opponent does?

How many short week road games do you play? Because that's the worst. Short week road games are the absolute worst. They're the hardest games to win because not only are you playing with less prep time, but you have to travel to go play that game. And that game is in prime time. So likely more crowd noise from the home team that's hosting you. So there's a variety of things.

There's also negated buy weeks that I look at, which basically shows that, I mean, the Patriots are dealing with one this week too. The Patriots play the Philadelphia Eagles in week 15. Both teams have a buy before that. So yes, you do have the benefit of having a buy, but most teams in the league get the benefit of not only having a buy, but then having extra rest over the opponent, extra time to prep over the opponent. And when the other team has a buy at

the same time, you obviously don't gain that advantage. So you had that best net rest differential and you sent me an email with some of this stuff. Carolina is our winner this year for best net rest differential. Carolina is the winner. And actually it's tied for the best net rest differential of any team since 2002. So they definitely stand to gain the most from just a pure rest perspective. There's some other things that they have that

are nice. If you're looking within that net rest differential, they play zero games where an opponent has extra time to prepare for them. And they have three games where they have extra time to prepare for their opponent. They also have three games naturally that they have more rest than their opponent, zero games where they have less rest than their opponent. They only play one game. That's a short week road game. So the max in the league is two. It would better to play zero, but they have one. They play zero games that are off of a road Sunday night or Monday night game. And that doesn't seem like much, but I obviously work with a variety of different teams and I've talked to some of their coaches, some of the front office

guys, and they surprisingly hate playing on the road on Sunday night or Monday night. Because not only are those environments more difficult to win in on the road, but then you're getting in significantly later and it just screws up your schedule. And these NFL guys are creatures of habit. They like to play on Sunday and then play the next Sunday and they don't like all these other things coming in the way. And that screws things up a little bit too. Well, Carolina over under for wins this year is a seven and a half right now on FanDuel. I, I, I don't, I haven't dug deep enough into that, but I did not like the comments. You see what Teddy Bridgewater was saying afterwards about Matt Rule and the way they were practicing and they don't practice the red zone stuff and they don't practice the two minute drill stuff. And

Teddy basically was like, I don't really want to say anything negative about these guys because I'm not there anymore. I'm out in Denver. But by the way, they need to fix how they practice because they weren't practicing this or that. And it was pretty interesting. Yeah, that was interesting. I wondered how much sour grape stuff there was coming from that because I'm sure they blew a lot of smoke up his butt last year when they got him. And then a year later, they're like, all right, see you later. But yeah, seven and a half. The Darnold trade, who knows get you get a distressed asset from the jets that's always a decent thing they had a top 10 pick that everybody liked so um for teams that if you look at the talent yeah that darnold now has compared to what he's had before it's not even

close it's not even close how much better he was with look at last, he's hamstrung and handicapped by having Adam Gase as his coach. He's got Frank Gore as his running back. His wide receivers are Jamison Crowder, Braxton Berrios, and Brashad Perryman. Now he gets Joe Brady as a coordinator, Christian McCaffrey as a running back, and then DJ Moore, Robbie Anderson, and Terrace Marshall Jr., the new kid from LSU. I mean, it's substantially better weaponry for him to work with and better coaching as well. And he's not playing in that Jets giant stadium that seems to just cripple people left and right. You were talking about how teams hate playing the road games on Sunday, Monday night. One of the things you tell them what you have about the Colts. Cause I thought that was nuts. It is nuts. And I can tell you, I mean, it is frustrating as hell for people inside that building as well. Um, no team has been screwed by the NFL more than the Colts as it relates to having to play primetime games on the road. The NFL will put you in prime time if they think your people are going

to watch you play and they're going to watch your games. And those are the best games that the NFL has typically to divvy up. So if you suck, you're not going to get as many prime time games. You get a minimum of one, I think, or a maximum of one if you suck. But Indianapolis has been pretty good like the last seven, eight years. Exactly. They've been good and they've been given primetime games. In fact, over the last five years entering this one, they've played in 14 primetime games. So the league's given them these games. The problem is that they're forcing them to go on the road almost all the time. Two out of their last 14 primetime games were at home.

That means 12 of 14 were on the road. Since 2017, they've played in 10 primetime games were at home. That means 12 of 14 were on the road. Since 2017, they've played in 10 primetime games. Nine of 10 have been on the road. I mean, it's insane what they've been doing. And I pointed this out in this study that I wrote last year, hoping to raise awareness because this is something simple. You want the Colts to play the Patriots on Monday night? Fine.

Put that game in Indy for a change. This year, they give the Colts once again, three primetime games, which has been their average, but they still send them on the road for two of the three. And ironically enough, the one home primetime game they get is a shitty Thursday night game against the Jets. Meanwhile, they got to go on the road to play Baltimore on Monday night, and they got to go on the road to play San Francisco, which is a longer trip for them on Sunday night. So once again, the NFL is not being kind to the Colts. Well, one thing I'm excited about, and I didn't realize this until you pointed it out, every year I lose on Denver's, usually it's like the late Monday night game in week one or week two game.

And I always bet on the road team and forget the part about the altitude in the first couple of weeks. You have some crazy stats on this, but the good news for me is I'm not going to be able to bet on that game this year. No, you won't. And that's bad news for us who have been following along with this trend because it certainly has been a profitable one. But the Denver Broncos, so let me back up. Teams typically take it a little bit easy on their vets and their starters in the preseason. There's been a growing trend. Okay, let's not overwork these guys. Let's ease them in slowly.

We don't want to start injuries. Most injuries, soft tissue injuries will occur at the beginning of training camp. When you first starting to do these types of explosive things, you weren't doing as much in the past. If you do those too quickly, too early on in the process and don't ease into it, you're more likely to rupture or tear some of these soft tissues that you have. So that's why teams are very cautious with these veterans. And what ends up happening since they also don't play a lot of preseason games any longer, week one comes around and guys aren't really in football shape. They're not in football shape. They're worse now than they've

ever been, but they weren't that great in football shape previously. And so the Denver Broncos had the number one biggest edge when they played home games the first two weeks because of their elevation and opposing teams just got gassed out at a ridiculous rate. Now, Denver had that stretch with Peyton Manning and they're really good and they were OK other times, but they have the NFL's best record at home the first two weeks of the season since 2000. They're 22 and three at home.

That's an 88% win rate. It's better than like the Ravens and the Patriots who typically the Ravens, especially start off really strong. And they're not only good winning games, but they cover 65% of these games. So that shows you that, you know, they've got a very good cover rate as well. But this year for the first time since 2003, the NFL has sent Denver on the road the first two weeks of the season. So we can't bet into this angle. We can't take the Broncos at home the first two weeks where they're really good. Yeah. Except you never told me to take the Broncos. I only really started learning from you in the last couple of years here.

I'm so glad I'm not going to lose money on them again so you have you sent me three teams have three straight road games and seven teams have three straight home games and normally it's like earlier in the season there's a couple late ones but of the three teams that have the three straight road games Colts, Bengals

Cowboys what is the impact of that is there analytics of if you have three straight road games that can actually be really detrimental for you even after those three games, there's more injuries? Or is it like if you get through those three road games, you do okay, your season can take off? What does it say? Yeah, I don't actually know from an injury perspective in terms of surviving those. And I also can't tell you what happens afterwards in terms of your overall schedule. We just know that having to prepare and go back and forth three straight times is very difficult. to bunch these games together in order to have a better ability to reduce travel. So like they might make one trip to the West coast and just stack a couple of games and stay out there for the week. As I look at the schedule for the Dallas Cowboys, they're at the saints on

a Thursday game. Then they go at Washington and at the giant. So they don't have to go. It's nothing that they're not accustomed to. They're not going out to the West coast for a couple of games. They'll be coming back and forth to Dallas. So that one's not too big of a deal weeks, 13 to 15. Um, but there, there are times when it would hurt more than that for sure. Probably later in the season. Well, one thing you have longest stretches between road games, the Ravens, from the beginning of October all the way through almost mid-November, 39 days where they don't have a road game. Now, I would imagine that is like unbelievably beneficial. So the three teams this year,

pretty interesting that these were the three teams. Ravens, Dolphins, Chiefs. I would argue three teams that the NFL would be totally fired up if those teams were good. Oh, yeah. I mean, look, the Dolphins are a great story. They got Tua as the quarterback. They got some fast, exciting receivers. Now we know Lamar Jackson and everything he does for the league.

And we know Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs. Like that's that's their their their print money with Patrick Mahomes. Anytime he's gets primetime games or he makes the league. And we know Patrick Mahomes and the chiefs like that's, that's their, their, their, uh, print money with Patrick Mahomes anytime he's gets primetime games or, or he makes the playoff. So for sure, the NFL would be very happy if those teams did really well. And those are the only three teams that have over a month of days where they're just at home at the, like a bi-week is factored in. That's fine. They don't have to travel anywhere for a month. And keep in mind the season is, you know, just four months. So it's pretty incredible. I have, I'm always dubious of strength of schedule forecast because the NFL changes so much and so dramatically year to year at the same time, your research just just based on forecasted win totals, which I'm guessing

you use Vegas over-unders and stuff like that, it says that San Francisco by far, by far has the easiest schedule. That's correct. And let me just get on my soapbox for a second with regard to strength of schedule. There is nothing in strength of schedule, any method that anybody tries to use that's going to be infallible. We are sitting here in May trying to forecast what the schedule is actually going to be all the way through until January of 2022. It's impossible to be dead on accurate with all 32 teams in terms of forecasting how good those teams are going to be

that you're going to face. But what we have to do is try to use a good strategy or approach to this. Far too often, I mean, I'm still sitting here watching the schedule release shows and the schedule release shows are doing nothing but talking about strength of schedule using prior year win percentage of the opponents that you're going to play this year. And we, I've run regression analysis. There's zero correlation. It's not predictive whatsoever. The prior year win rate is not predictive at all as, as to what that team is going to do this year.

So you have to use something better. You could choose to use power ratings. If you come up with your own power ratings, you want to plug those in. You could do that. Whether or not you have confidence in them or whether or not they're going to be right is another discussion, but you could do that. Or you could just trust the odds maker and say, okay, the odds maker is set over-unders on all these teams. Let's just use that. So years ago, I started using that and it's a method that's been picked up and kind of universally adopted within sort of like the analytics community is like a much better way to calculate strength of schedule. And by that

methodology, the San Francisco 49ers have the easiest schedule out there. And the Steelers and Raiders have the, by far the most difficult schedule for 2021. So I would argue if you're just basing strength of schedule on the Vegas over under win totals, Vegas has put a tremendous amount of thought into it. They're trying to get equal amount of betting on both sides. But for the most part, if they're way off, there's going to be so much money from syndicates like ones you might dabble in. for the most part, if they're way off, there's going to be so much money from syndicates. Like ones you might dabble in you, they're just going to completely exploit, take advantage. So eventually those numbers are going to be around where they should be.

I don't understand how anybody would not use that as like, well, why do I care what happened last year? The rosters, they changed 40% of the roster. We have drafts. We have guys get hurt. We have free agents. That's absurd. It is absurd. And the other thing that I don't think people do enough, Bill, is they don't look at strength of schedule during the course of the season. We sit here and a lot of people talk about it in May as the schedule is about to come out, who has the most difficult schedule. But we're also basing all these things on forecasts and projections. And these things change during the course of the season. Some teams have a better run defense than you thought, or some teams are better passing the ball offensively than you thought. And so your defensive, the schedule

that your past defense is going to go up against will vary tremendously. And so that's why one of the things I look at a lot during the course of the season, and we've got visualizations up at the website that people can play around with every single week during the course of the season, is like, what has the strength of schedule been that I've played so far? And what's my future strength of schedule

based upon what we know right now, sitting here in week six or sitting here in week nine? So that's very important. The other thing that I will do, as you mentioned, NFL win totals will get more efficient as you get closer to the start of the season because you have more money being bet into them and the odds makers are going to adjust their lines,

not necessarily to balance the money all the time, but to try to see where the sharp guys are banging them and not get taken advantage of by those sharp syndicate money. And so I re-obsess my strength of schedule by August, right? Like I'm looking at it right now in May and the 49ers have by far the easiest and Steelers and Raiders have the hardest. But by the time we get to August, these could be tweaked a little bit and I'll definitely make those adjustments. When is the best time to bet on season over-unders in your opinion?

Well, it's tricky because you're always at a situation where I need to collect enough information, yet I also want to get down at a good number, coupled with the fact that the limits are a lot lower right now. You could just roll the dice on some of your thoughts right now and go and bet on some of these win totals. You'll get worse limits than you will later. The bookmaker then knows your position. And see, that's the problem.

If you're just a regular Joe on the street, you could do that. And the bookmaker is not going to care. But all of our accounts are flagged. So when they see us betting on a certain thing, the book is going to make an adjustment because it's showing up in our account. And therefore we're not going to get a good number in the future. So let's say the limit right now is a thousand dollars on a win total, right? I'm not going to go out and bet that right now. I'm going to wait until I can get $5,000 down. And then at the same day, we're going to bet, you know, six or seven

different books for the limit, um, as opposed to just betting one or two now that have wind totals out. And we can only get a dime down because if Joe goes and puts a thousand dollars on it and I go put a thousand dollars on it, Joe's money's not moving anything, but my money shouldn't. But because my account is flagged, it does. So I typically dig in right from when we finish talking here, the next 24 to 48 hours, my head's down. I'm in my lab. I'm working on my research to write this book that I do, studying all 32 teams. And it's going to be like 400 plus pages. And that sucker will be ready at the beginning of July. And at that point, I'll have conducted enough research and we'll get a little bit better limits that we'll probably start betting on things in July from a wind total perspective. So you're saying I should wait to

bet on Atlanta over under eight. If you think you're going to lose that number and you're, I don't want that to go to eight and a half. I don't want eight and a half. I want, yeah. So if, if, if you basically seven and nine, I lose, I don't think they're going seven and nine. I think they will be eight and eight or higher. So if you like that and you got a good number right now, I would just go ahead and bet it. And the only reason that you wouldn't want to bet it now is if you're trying to get 50 dimes down on it and you want to wait to be able to do that. But if you just want to grab that number before it leaves, then I would do it now. Pat's over under his nine, just in case you were wondering. We can talk about that Mac Jones nugget.

Yeah, let's do the Mac Jones. Give me the Mac Jones nugget. So all these rookie quarterbacks, you're really trying to figure out when are they going to get their chance to start? When is the team going to put these guys into the game? And with Mac Jones specifically, it's really interesting looking at where his schedule falls based upon the past defenses that he's going to face. So the Patriots start the season playing three games against top six past defenses from 2020. They've got the Dolphins week one, the Saints week three, and the Bucks week four. Those are all top six past defenses. So it's a brutal stretch if Bill wants to stick them in

as his week one opening day starter. But if he does not make it in- So are you laying the groundwork for throw Cam to the Lions in the first six weeks and then bring in Mac Jones and be like, oh my God, this is what you're doing. The groundwork is the first four weeks because they play these three top six pass defenses in their first four weeks, the first month of the season. Starting in week five,

the Patriots go on this stretch where they don't play a single pass defense that ranked in the top half of the NFL last year. We're talking about the Texans, the Cowboys, the Jets, the Chargers, the Panthers, the Browns, the Falets, the Chargers, the Panthers, the Browns, the Falcons, and the Titans. Now, some of these teams, obviously, their pass defense is going to get a little bit better, but that's a really juicy stretch. How juicy? Well, that is the number one easiest stretch of any team for any quarterback from weeks

five through 12 of the season. So that's the point in time that if you want to, Cam's not looking so great against the Saints defense and the Bucks defense. He's got experience against those defenses playing in the NFC South previously, but if he's not looking that great, boom, the Texans come up. That's a great game to stick Mac Jones in. They play the Texans week five. And from there on, they play the number one easiest schedule of past defenses based upon last year's rankings, obviously subject to change of any team in the NFL for the next eight weeks. And you also avoid Mac Jones versus Tom Brady.

Right. You could just, you could just, unless, so my hope, my dream is that from day one of training camp, it's just like, wow, Mac Jones, like what happened with Russell Wilson in Seattle that year when he's going against Matt Flynn and Charlie Whitehurst, whoever the hell else was out there. And within two weeks, it's like, oh, all right, this is our guy. Hopefully that will happen. You had Justin Fields. You said he plays the Rams week one and then the Bears four straight bottom 10 pass defenses.

So what do you do? Do you not start fields week one knowing like, how do you handle that? Do you just let them get the crap kicked out of them week one, knowing that it gets easier week two and on, or what do you do? Yeah, that's tricky. And that's where, um, you know, it's going to be tough for Nagy to try to assess it. I'm sure that they're not making that decision sitting here today. They're going to wait until the preseason goes on. They're going to see how these guys do. They're going to see how much Justin Fields has a handle of the offense. And if they think he's not going to die out there on the field against the Rams, they might start in week one. I mean, I think he, frankly, you put him in as early as

you possibly can, because not only is he probably your best option to win long-term, but because you need to get this guy some work if you're going to make a run during his rookie deal, which is the goal of every team, which is why I think, you know, the earlier in a rookie quarterback's year that it's optimal to start him, you need to do that. But there is a great scenario here where there's less preseason games, less work that he has. You go ahead and let Dalton go out there. You brought Dalton in, let Dalton go out there week one, see what happens against the Rams. Andy, take this beating. Andy, take this beating. If not only that, what would be funny is that that's a primetime Sunday night game week one. There was the old

narrative of Andy Dalton in primetime. So it's like trot Andy out there in primetime week one, see what happens. The only problem is if Andy absolutely crushes it, right? And the bears win. And then Andy's got a revenge game week two against the Bengals and Andy, the coach doesn't feel like he could pull them. So Andy starts that game and plays really well too against the bottom, you know, 10 pass defense. And then all of a sudden, Andy Dalton's got a little bit of mojo about him and the bears maybe are two and oh, to start the season. And what do you do at that point? But, um, you know, I, I don't think they're making any decisions right now, but it's an interesting opportunity to go ahead and see, at least they

have the flexibility to not start in week one, but stick's an interesting opportunity to go ahead and see at least they have the flexibility to not start in week one, but stick them in there pretty soon thereafter against an easy schedule. Two quick FanDuel bets for you, and then we'll go. Regular season MVP. They have Mahomes 5-1, Rodgers 9-1, Josh Allen 13-1, Prescott 15-1. Can you guess who has the fourth best odds along with Prescott? So Mahomes Rogers,

Alan Prescott, who do you think has the fourth best highest odds tied with Prescott? Somebody I have not mentioned yet. The answer is Matthew Stafford. They have Matthew Stafford in the, in the tide for fourth over Lamar Jackson, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert,

Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray. My guess is, are people looking at this and thinking the Rams are just going to completely air it out now that they have a quarterback that McVay actually wanted and trust? Like he has like 5,000 yard potential? I don't know that they would ever turn to the air that rate,

but what they are going to do is have more success throwing the ball down the field. So they will push it a little bit more. I don't think they up their pass rate tremendously. I still think that this is more of a standard Sean McVay offense that maybe just operates at a higher efficiency and takes a few more accurate deep shots down the field now that Stafford's there. Okay. I think there's a

possibility they are at out. Worst regular season record. We're going to end with this. Here we go. Houston plus 250. Detroit plus 350. The Jets plus 850. Bengals 10 to 1. Jags 12 to 1. Eagles 13 to 1. And then it goes crazier. I like the Lions at plus 350. I don't understand why they don't have the worst odds.

I know the Deshaun situation, God only knows what's going to happen with that. And Houston didn't exactly have a loaded draft this year considering they didn't have picks. But how is Detroit not going to be the worst team in the league? What am I missing? The fact that the Houston Texans are in the league.

Okay. That's the only thing. For me, I'm looking at the Houston Texans. And I don't love either coaching staff, the Lions or the Texans. But I know't love either coaching staff, the Lions or the Texans, but I know you don't get as much return. I think you said it was plus 250 versus plus 350, but the Detroit Lions, if Aaron Rodgers is not playing for Green Bay and you're playing love, that definitely helps the Lions ability to do a little bit more. The Lions are terrible at the receiver position, but the Texans are just a dumpster fire.

Their draft was an abysmal draft. They're trading up to draft off-ball linebackers and will linebackers. It was just a disaster. And they play a difficult schedule. Both of these teams play the number three and four most difficult schedule in the NFL this upcoming season. So I could see both of them-

So why wouldn't you bet on both and just try to hope you hit one of the two? You're basically- Who did you say the third one was? Well, you could do Texans plus 250, Detroit plus 350, and the Jets were plus 850. Eagles were 13 to one.

Yeah. I mean, I think there's more talent on those rosters to do more damage and they have more competent coaching and just regimes in general. I think getting Adam Gase out of there is going to make the Jets look a lot different. And we'll see what Justin hurts or Jalen hurts rather does for the Eagles. That's, that's a real, uh, wild card at this point. Um, but if he's bad, then they're going to be pretty bad. I would not be taking the jets there. If you're one, a long shot, the Eagles are close, but I cannot see the Eagles being worse this year than the Texans or the lions are. I think those two are by far your best bets. So if you bet a thousand on the Texans and you bet a thousand on the Lions

and if you lose, you lose 2000. If the Texans win, you win 1500. If the Lions win, you win 2500. That's basically how that goes. It's not bad, but I'm going to look at it. I'm going to crunch my numbers. You crunch your numbers the next 48 hours. I'm going to be crunching my numbers. What I won't be doing is texting house for his opinion, because as you learned with house last year, you want to, you want to zag when house is zigging and you want to zig when house is zagging is one of the moves. That's why he's house. Uh, Warren sharp. Can't wait to read your book in a couple months, but it was good to see you.

And thanks for all the info. Hey, thanks for having me, Bill. All right, Andrew McCarthy is here. He has a new book out called Brat. One of my rules is if anyone from 80s and 90s movies that I liked ended up writing a book about anything,

then they're always welcome on this podcast. But it's nice to see you. It's nice to meet you. And I can't wait to talk about some of this stuff. Well, it's good to know the bar is high. You named this book Brat, even though you were in the Brat Pack, but not really.

I never felt like... You got kind of guilt by association pulled into that, but you were really the Brad Pack, but not really. I never felt like you got kind of guilt by association pulled into that, but you were really kind of, you were like a New York guy. You weren't really in this whole thing, right? Well, I mean, you know, in a literal sense, I was not, as you say, but I mean, in the sort of metaphorical sense of all, you know, being in those movies and lumped in with the group and the gang and all, I very much was, for sure. Well, it's amazing, like everybody basically worked with somebody else at least once.

You know, and in most cases, twice. Like, you were in two movies with Rob Lowe. I was, I was in two, yeah, in Class and Cinema's Fire with Rob, yeah. And then you, on down the line, Ally Sheedy and Molly Ringwald never get mentioned in Brad Pack, I think because Molly Ringwald was younger, but you basically, you intersected with every single person from all those movies, I think. Is

somebody missing? You even got Downey and Jamie Gerdson. Yeah, I've never met Anthony Michael Hall, so I guess, but I don't know who's in the Brad Pack technically, you know, I don't know who gets the, you Pack technically, you know, I, you know, I don't know who, who gets the, you know, membership cards, but I never met Charlie Sheen. I guess he wasn't in the Brad Pack, Charlie Sheen, but yeah, I mean, it just was,

it just represented those people and those, you know, those movies that were being made at the time, you know. I was shocked in your book. You felt like class was a failure. It was a critical failure and it didn't do that well. And meanwhile, I really liked that movie. I feel like when you talk about

the teen kind of comedies from that era, I thought it was one of the more sophisticated ones. By the way, there weren't that many movies back then. I feel like everybody saw it. Everybody my age was in love with Jacqueline Bessette, which I think you probably were too deep down.

I mean, that's not hard to have been in love with Jacqueline Bessette. But yeah, that movie was, it wasn't successful really monetarily and it was not well-reviewed at all, you know, because it was a kind of, like I talked about a bit in the book, it was a hybrid, you know, it was like the producers wanted it to be very much a teen comedy and the director wanted to make a coming of age

story and so it kind of ended up being a little of both and you know i mean i have great affection for it because it was the first time i you know ever did anything so it was a powerful kind of experience for me but it was not that successful. It certainly didn't launch my career. I didn't work for a good year after that. Listen, this is bullshit. Class is a good movie. I really think you should have sold it better.

It hurt my feelings when you dismissed it after it came out. Listen, I like boarding school movies. You made Heaven Help Us, which is in the same type of boarding school movie, but I always appreciated those. Heaven Help Us help us i think it's quite a good movie i think that's the best yeah the 80s i think that's the best movie i did that in that phase i think that was a really good movie i thought that movie was yeah a good story well told and i think no one saw that movie but i thought that was quite good i saw it it. I really liked it. I think the thing with Class,

you know, it's the kind of movie for people listening who don't know what the movie was. You're basically, your boarding school roommate's Rob Lowe and you go home to visit for the weekend

not realizing that the person you had a one night stand with was Rob Lowe's kind of drunken mom. And it's the kind of movie now the movie's canceled on arrival in 2021. There's just no way ever this gets made. I actually...

A lot of the movies I did then that would be canceled on arrival. I mean, Mannequin, like it's a movie about a woman who only comes to life for a guy. I mean, that could never be made now. You know, I mean, like you say in Almost Fire,

even, I mean, Emilio is stalking poor Andy McDowell. That couldn't happen. That part would have to be changed. You know, they were of their time for sure. I actually watched class with my wife and daughter because it was on like, I don't know, eight months ago. My daughter just turned 16.

And she was enjoying it because she likes, I've made her basically watch every 80s movie. And then when he sleeps with the mom and it turns out to be Rob Lowe Rob Lowe's mom in the movie and she was like what's going on here? How is this okay? Her Gen Z

woke generation kicked in. She was like they made this? She was immediately horrified which I thought was hilarious. But you said the St. Elmo's fire, Emilio Estevez's character, Kirby, is basically a psychotic? Well, I mean, he's stalking that poor Andy McDowell, chasing him up into the mountains or whatever it is he did. For like half the movie. I know, it's half the movie.

And at the time, that was just passion. Now it's, you know, Right, now it's like, Yeah, you need to go see somebody. I didn't realize until I read your book, how random your whole, just you ending up in class, you had literally really been in nothing.

You had had like two lines in a movie. No, I mean, I would, it was literally an open call in the newspaper, just an ad in the newspaper that said, you know, they're casting a movie looking for someone 18, vulnerable and sensitive. And I was like, dude, that's me. And so I went up to the Ansonia Hotel on 73rd Broadway and waited with 500 other 18 vulnerable and sensitive kids and met a casting director for about 30 seconds. And he said, come to our office on Monday. I was like, really?

He said, yes. I went to the office Monday, read a few scenes and I came back again and again and about 10 auditions later, I'm being flown out to LA to meet Jackie Bissett to see if she'll approve me

as her young lover. It's crazy. It was crazy, Tom. Who, just for the record, I mean, I would say even now, I mean, she's like in the top seven all time from the looks department. Just like best looking woman

who ever lived. She just has to be at least, I don't know, it's like basketball, we know Michael Jordan's the best and LeBron and Kareem are like right there. I don't know what the list is of the best seven, best nine, whatever, but she's in it. She has to be discussed.

And you're 18 and you have to film scenes with her. I think Newsweek magazine, right before I did that movie, called her the most beautiful film actress of all time. So that's kind of good enough for me. Yeah, but she was so nice to me though. I mean, she was so easy and casual and welcoming to me. She was, you know, it was fantastic.

So it all just sort of seemed natural enough, you know. Well, she was more than nice to you. I never knew this until I read your book. You kind of moved into her guest house when she was dating the bad guy from Die Hard. Yeah, exactly. She was living with Alexander Gudnov and the Russian ballet star, who is probably the most beautiful guy in the world. I mean, they were a stunning couple.

And yeah, yeah, we were finished filming. And she said, you know, Andrew, what are you doing after the film? I said, I have to go to LA and get an agent because I don't have an agent. She said, where are you staying? I don't know. She goes, well, where are you staying? I don't know. She goes, well, stay with me. I was like, okay, great. So I lived at her house for a while, and it was fantastic.

It was a crazy kind of thing because she'd have all these wonderful dinner parties, and there's Louis Malle, and there's Kenneth Bergen, and there's Andy over there in the corner. It was just kind of – and they would all be like, who's this kid over in the corner? He's not saying anything. Oh, don't worry, Andrew. He's lovely.

Leave him be. You know? So it was a great time. I did the show business right then after that. It was really the high point for me. I mean, it's incredible because good enough for boyfriend. It's kind of a wild card.

I mean, he was definitely on the drinking party side a little bit, right? Well, I mean, yeah, he used to make his own vodka and he'd have his homemade vodka in the freezer and that would come out every night after dinner. And that stuff was potent. I mean, when you're making your own vodka, you've gone to another level as a drinker, I think.

You've gone to another level. All the store-made vodka isn't good enough for me. I need to make my own. I need to go stronger. To just be a cautionary tale, he did die of alcohol abuse 10 years later. Right, right, right. Yeah, it was tough.

But at least he... When was that? Like early, mid-90s? No, that was early 80s. That was 83. No, but when he died, it was... Oh, yeah, about 10 years later. Early 90s, yeah.

What a couple. I would watch a documentary about them. So then you're ice cold after class, and you're just struggling for anything. You're in a commercial with Elizabeth Shue. Yeah, I did a commercial with Elizabeth Shue that I lived off of for a good six, eight months at least. I mean, I was the Pepsi boy

in the Burger King commercial with her. Yeah, she was the Burger King girl. And yeah, I did that. But, and that was a real lifesaver because I didn't know what would happen to me then. And then I got, then I did a movie. Well, it wasn't a movie. It was an afterschool special.

A thing called The Benneker Gang. But, you know, anyways, I did that. And then I was in, then I did Heaven Help Us, the movie we were talking about. Well, back then, if you were in a commercial in the mid-80s, and it was a big enough brand, like 35, 40, 50 million people would see it within the first couple of days.

Yeah. And I remember it was on during the World Series. But also, but doing a commercial back then was, an actor with a career did not do commercials. You know what I mean? You did not do a commercial. That was you did an actor with a career did not do commercials you know you did not do a commercial there was no that was not that was not for acting whereas in the same way you would not be on a television show you were in the movies if you were in television means your

movie career was over and you didn't have a movie career you were a tv actor so you would never be and to do a commercial is beneath that even so it was but i didn't have a career i just needed money and i was a kid and I was thrilled together. So you weren't auditioning for sitcoms and doing that whole thing? You just like movies, movies, movies? I did not audition for TV things very much in that time.

No, no. Even late in the 80s, people would ask me occasionally to be on TV shows and I did not do them because it was just the time. If you did a TV show, your career, your movie career was spent. And you were a TV actor. Well, you end up in St. Elmo's Fire,

an iconic movie. I can't believe... You look at the Oscars, the 86 Oscars. I don't know. It just got shut out. It doesn't make a lot of... Although the theme, I think, did well, actually. But they're positioning it as the big chill for people out of college.

By the way, this is the best version of that idea. I stand by it. The whole concept of a quick in college trying to deal with real life. You've seen so many different movies try to do this. My favorite of the more modern ones was Kicking and Screaming, which is Noah Baumbach's first movie. But the whole concept of like, all right, now what do we do? We were these cool people in college. Now we got to actually figure it out. And like Rob Lowe's character, it's actually when he goes back to campus and he's like kind of the man on campus again. And he realizes like his life's turned into shit, basically. I don't know. It hit some good themes.

It was weird to me that it was reviewed so negatively and people really had their hatchets out for it, which I just disagreed with. All those movies really got terrible reviews. So even Pretty in Paint was poorly reviewed and things. But yeah, St. Elmo's Fire was not. The only review I remember was someone called it, you know, poor man's big chill a day late and a dollar short. Yeah. And, uh,

but, but, you know, kids don't care. Kids don't go to read reviews. They love it. Yeah. People,

everybody went to that movie and that, that was really like, to me, that's you, you're tying in all these people's breakfast club. I think hadn't come out yet before Sin Almost Fire, but then Breakfast Club came out.

I think it did, didn't it? I think that was it. When you're filming it, you didn't know Breakfast Club. You hadn't seen Breakfast Club yet as you're filming Sin Almost Fire. Right. I don't think so.

I don't think so. I can't remember, but I don't think we had. Yeah, but that movie was well regarded when it came out. Breakfast Club was really well received. I remember that. It felt like a moment. And it was such a fun time in pop culture too in the mid 80s

because you had the Back to the Future, Karate Kid, Terminator kind of movies. But then you had a lot of really smart teen movies. We'd moved out of that Porky's era. There's movies like Secret Admirer and Breakfast Club. And it was just like people trying to get high school kids in a more realistic way than just kids trying to get laid

or looking through shower peepholes and things like that. And then Santa Masfaro was the natural, all right, let's now go to college and post-college and see how it goes. I think the movie's still really watchable the um i haven't seen it in ages but i mean i certainly love doing it i love that part that part was the best part i had for and suited me better than any other part in that um

in that time i mean that part fit me like a glove i don't even know how much of it was all a lot of it was sort of altered to my temperament and stuff. But he was very much that cynical, rotten before it's ripe kind of thing, covering this well of vulnerability underneath, which that was me at the time. So that was an easy fit. Well, the guy you play, Kevin, he's basically the internet 10 years before the internet showed up. He's this acerbic. He thinks he's better than everyone. He's,

but he's afraid to actually do anything. And, um, it's basically where we went 12 years later with the internet. Yeah, that's sad, but true. The,

I think if they make it now, I think they make him gay. I think, and I, and I definitely don't think they have seven white people. I think they would try to make it more diverse and explore some different themes. But I think his character,

and it's funny because they hint at it in the movie because the prostitute asked him if he's gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're probably right, actually. I mean, I never considered these things, so I talked to people like you who know much more about 80s movies than I do. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, much more about eighties movies than I do. Oh yeah.

I, I, yeah, you're probably right. It's either him or they make the Estevez character gay because ultimately like, I don't even know what the Estevez character is even doing in that movie. Like he basically,

he's a waiter who become, he keeps changing what he wants to do and becomes infatuated by a woman. And that's like his whole plot. But you know, the, the Judd Nelson character, there's some really cool Reagan stuff with it when you look back, right? He starts out as a Democrat and then he moves over to the Republicans. And there's like, what's the guy, what's the chairman of the Democrats going to Republican? And he's like, moving up, Kerbo, moving up. Those were the themes of the 80s that, I don't know, that movie is like a time capsule of something. So I don't like the reviews. I'm mad at all those people that didn't see it. It is very much a time capsule. Like you say, it's interesting. And it's interesting about

how Republicanism became what was the symbol of power interesting i hadn't thought of that really but it was very much that i became a republican so that means i'm grown up and i'm really want to be successful huh yeah which i don't know like nowadays the jed nelson character would be like the villain in the movie right they would think like yeah well now we don't talk to republicans if we're not republic. We're not allowed to. Yeah. They would ostracize him. The other,

the Rob Lowe character, I just feel like every friend group had that one talented. I hope he gets his shit together or her shit together. We'll see if it happens. I guess Demi Moore was the female version of that, but I don't know. I thought it hit some good stuff. So that led to Pretty in Pink for you,

where you got to work with John Hughes, who they rewrote the part for you. It was supposed to be like a football player, right? Yeah, that was because of Molly. Yeah, the part was written as kind of like this jockey, quarterbacky, kind of broad-shouldered dude. And they gave me an audition because I'm pretty certain I was about to come out and, you know,

there was some buzz about the movie because no one had seen it yet. And, you know, as you know, you're never hotter than when anyone, no one's seen your work. So I was invited. So I was given a courtesy audition, but they said, well, it's not what we want. You know, we, we want someone more, you know, all through the eighties, people were always telling me I needed to go to the gym. So it was, so anyway i did went on audition molly happened to be there which is odd because actors are never in the room for auditions you know and but she was there and she read with me

and i remember totally i just walked in molly was there and john hughes was sitting in the back he never even spoke to me howie deutsch was the director. John produced it and wrote it. And I mean, he was sort of the overlord over the whole thing. But he just never spoke to me. And I read my scene once. And they showed no interest at all. And the casting assistant said, thank you. I was like, fuck these people.

And left. And Molly apparently turned to John and said,'s that's the guy and john's like are you fucking kidding me that wimpy guy and she's yeah no he's poetic and sensitive he's he's my guy he's the guy i'd fall in love with that kind of guy and so john you know to john's credit went okay i don't see it but okay if you you know, again, to John's credit, he not only sort of gave teenagers credit for having real valuable emotions and thoughts on screen, he took it into real life. And he said, if you think so, I'll go for it. And then the second he decided to cast me, he was fully behind me, but it was certainly entirely Molly's doing. Well, it's interesting that she said you were the kind of guy she would be attracted to but then

it it wasn't like you guys had like the most fantastic relationship wasn't a bad relationship but no in real life you wouldn't have dated no we would not have and you know that's probably was my fault in a certain sense that i was felt like very much an outsider of that group because they had their stuff down they'd made several movies together we're all equals and all of course but Molly was most equal and it was her movie after all

and we're all there to support her and I just felt on the outside and so I just sort of withheld so much of those times in the 80s in those movies, I was unsure of where to place myself. And when I was unsure, I withdrew

and just sort of adopted this position of kind of, the presentation of it was very kind of aloof and kind of disinterested, when it was really just masking kind of fear of like, I don't know what the hell's going on and what I'm supposed to do. And so instead of presenting like that, it's a very vulnerable way to be and so you don't want to do present in such a vulnerable way because a you feel you know poachable and b people can't

feel safe with you if you're so frail people can't like can he do this you know so i just presented in a way that seemed like i just didn't care that much. And Molly didn't, you know, she was like trying to reach out to me and I'm just sort of like back there. And so she eventually then went, well, to hell with you. You know, fair enough. And but, you know, so we had some friction in the time. And so which actually enlightened our scenes quite a lot, I think. So, you know, it took years beyond that to sort of, for me to A, realize that's what I was doing.

I didn't even know what people used to say to me all the time. Andy, you can't be so aloof with these people. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm just, this is how I, you know, it's either stay home and be terrified or get aloof. Which one of these two do you want? Those are the only two arrows in my quiver, you know? Right. So anyway, it worked for a while and in certain capacities.

And, you know, I think that's why Molly and I didn't really, our relationship didn't develop because it was my kind of withholding, I suppose. So you're like the aloof New Yorker in a lot of these movies. You got the LA kids like Rob Lowe and Charlie and Emilio, and they all know each other and stuff. And you could even feel it in that, in the famous Brad Pack piece that a New York magazine wrote,

which it's hard to overstate the impact of that piece, especially like magazine cover back then. That changed everything. But really backtrack for one second. There was very much back in the day there, there still was very much the thing of the New York actor versus the LA actor very much. And I really came down on the side of the New York actor, you know,

wanted to be that. But yeah, then once the Brad Pack article came out, that instantly just changed the entire way we were perceived, the entire way we interacted. And it was over. It sort of just was like a bomb that went off right in the middle of all those kinds of movies you're just naming before and just sort of blew them up because suddenly nobody wanted to be in a movie that would be associated

with Black Pack, you know, because it was such a sort of pejorative term when it came out. I mean, it was a scathing article. If you were to look at it again, if you were to read it now, it sort of, and even then it was just like, oh my God, you know, the picture on the cover of the map, it was originally supposed to be this small feature on Emilio for St. Elmo's Fire coming out and then Emilio invited the I can't you know you can never imagine this happening now but Emilio invited the

writer to go have a drink with him and his buds at the Hard Rock Cafe and his buds were Judd and Rob and so the writer and you know they're young, successful in movies in a very public-y kind of place in a bar and people start coming up to him and they start behaving the way young successful dudes behave. And the writer turned off to that and just wrote this incredibly scathing article about them. And, and then anyone who is within vicinity of,

you know, in any of those movies, the, the ripples were very large and swallowed us all up. The shrapnel of it, yeah. I mean, it's in the 80s, and you talk about this in the book pretty extensively. You're dealing with stuff just by drinking.

But this is the 80s where there's cocaine everywhere, there's partying, all that stuff. And you saw a lot of careers either get derailed or almost get derailed from that stretch from like 79 to 86, basically. And you're this wide-eyed kid from New York getting thrown into these movies. What were some of the craziest things you saw? You're casually mentioning in this book, like, oh, when I was a guest at Jackie Bessette's house for a couple months, and when they put me up at the Marmont, and I ended up at Sammy Davis's junior's house one night with Liza Minnelli. And you're just like, matter of factly rolling this stuff off. Was there stuff

you didn't want to put in the book? Or did you just give us like three or four of your best ones? You know, but no, I mean, they're kind of there. I mean, you know, and they're only there in the sense, like I didn't try and tell too many just stories, just to tell a story. It sort of had to have some meaning behind it. Like it was just a reflection of like, that's how the world I was suddenly operating in.

Yeah. And so, and just to give it a context of like, I'm this kid from New Jersey and it just seemed like, but on the one hand, it was so crazy. Like I'm sitting having dinner next to Liza Minnelli and then she takes us up to Sammy Davis Jr's house and it's like so surreal and weird. And Sammy's like, you know, pouring drinks for us and we're smoking cigarettes and he's talking about the photos on the wall of him and Frank and Dino. And I'm going, yeah, Sammy, yeah. And I'm like, oh my God. But on the other hand, it was so sort of mundane and just like people hanging out in a certain way. And it was just, and I was so kind of young that I just kind of rolled with it and went with it. And what I remember of those things and what I experienced at the time was the generosity that those people had. They were just really welcoming to us. Like that was old Hollywood sort of welcoming the new gang into the fold, as it were, you know? And I remember Sammy on that night, like he's smoking his cigarette the way Sammy Davis did, you know,

and he starts pointing it at me, his cigarette and going, I got my eye on you cats. I got my eye on you cats. I'm loving what you're doing, Andy. And I'm like, yes, Sammy, can I have another vodka? I mean, you know. Wow. So it was crazy. But also, on the other hand, just strangely normal. Yeah.

And so it was, yeah, it was a moment in time for sure. Because those people were soon gone, you know. Lies is not, of course. But I mean, you know, that kind of vibe of old Hollywood was pretty from the end of that. Well, you read all the stuff from that era, and even the people who are in the middle of it, it just seems like Hollywood's completely out of control,

but nobody realizes it. And occasionally you would have the Belushi overdose or something like that. But the way I always thought about it is like, there's this stretch there where people don't really understand that, um, cocaine and stuff like that is really that bad for you. Like that, that this could, this is a path that's going to be hard to pull back from almost like nowadays. If we found out coffee was bad for you, you know, and we're like, Oh my God, why drink two cups?

God, that was bad for me. It just seemed like people just were letting it fly there for seven, eight years. Could you feel that in the moment? Like this was a crazier place than maybe it seemed like day to day? You know, yes and no. I mean, in the sense that I started drinking pretty extensively in that time, but it was, you know, drinking is a subtle thing. It sneaks up on you so much. And, you know, so, but people had always been drinking.

So, I mean, you know, it didn't, we thought it was, we thought we were all very savvy and, you know, on the leading edge of the stuff. And, you know, we didn't, it didn't feel out of control. It just felt, you know, everything is just so incremental. You know, now we look back on it and you can never get away with you know people doing cocaine casually on a set and like it just couldn't happen now not that i'm aware of maybe people are but i'm not aware of it and there's no tolerance for it now people it's much more business oriented and back

then it seemed much more familial in a certain way and just sort of intimate and sort of like a clubby kind of vibe um but you know ever since the first day I was in Hollywood, people always said, and that was 1982, my first time in Hollywood, is people said, oh, you should have been here a few years ago. You know, man, it's changing so much. And I've heard it every day since then. You should have been here just five years ago. You know, on the late 70s, all the tours and everything.

Oh, it's all gone now. And then in the late 80s, it's like, oh, you should have been here in the mid ago. On the late 70s, all the tours and everything, it's all gone now. And then in the late 80s, it's like, oh, you should have been here in the mid-80s, man. Oh, man. So, I don't know. And at the time, you're always on the leading edge, but it's always, only in hindsight, you kind of go, wow, that was insane. What did

we think we were doing, being that drunk or doing that kind of drugs or something? So, it felt normal. You seem pretty skeptical this whole, like very self-aware, especially in the book, like you're self-aware and a little skeptical of some of this stuff. Who was the most fun person from that era? Like when you think back, like I'm going out with person blank, this will be the most fun six hours I'm going to have. Was there a standout? Well, you know, my thing was I didn't really hang with a bunch of the guys. I lived in New York too and I didn't really hang with that because I was spending my time at the Corner Bistro,

which was a dive bar or Barrel Pub, which was a cop bar that I used to drink in. So I was not hanging with the LA people. I mean, I enjoyed going out with Rob because Rob knew how to embrace this whole thing. Yeah. And he brought like, even with him, he was great. You know, Rob's super sneaky savvy and, you know, in a wonderful way.

Like he loved the Brat Pack. Yeah, it's great. You know, and so he was so loose with it. And which was the way to be, you be. I just took it all too personal, I think, in some way. So I think Rob was sort of a lot of fun in that, but I just never really hung out with those people in the way that... When I was done with the movie in LA, I went home. And I didn't hang with actors really very much. And I don't know that I've met very many intimate actors. You never got sucked in with musicians, any of that stuff?

Like you never... Oh, when I was doing St. Elmo's Bar, I was living at the Sunset Marquis Hotel and that was Musician Central. And every band would come through there. And I mean, there were... Bruce Springsteen was doing the Born in the USA tour, so they were in residence for like three weeks,

so he was partying with Bob Seger. I remember we was recording an album there, the American Storm album, I think it was called, which is about cocaine, and just getting drunk with Bob Seger. So some musicians, sure, they were easy to party with. Yeah. They didn't really seem to care. So that was kind of fun.

And that was a different world for me. I didn't feel any competition or any kind of anything. They were just musicians, and that was really cool, away from the world that I lived in. And I enjoyed that, and they seemed to know how to party in a real reckless way. And I drank in a pretty reckless way. I just didn't do it in a real reckless way. And I drank in a pretty reckless way. I just didn't do it in a very public way.

Right. Well, you wrote in the book how you turned down a John Hughes overture to be in his next movie. And the world with John Hughes was always, if you let him down in some way, you were just cut off. That was it. You were out. Do you remember what movie you turned down?

What were the specifics? I had two script incidences with John. While I was doing St. Elmo's Fire, I rolled up to the set one night and he tossed his, you know, he sauntered over the way John did in that kind of really casual way. He tossed me the script and said, give that a read.

So I went to my trailer and I went, Ooh, I'm going to get another job. Great. So I read this script called Ferris Viewer's Day Off. And I'm like, Oh, this is really funny. So I went to John, this is really funny. Expecting him to then just kind of, you know, Oh good. Thanks. It was the last I heard of that movie. Wow. But you know, Matthew is much better than I ever last I heard of that movie. Wow. But, you know, Matthew is much better than I ever would have been in that movie, so that's okay. But then he asked me to do, to then gave me another script for another movie called Some Kind of Wonderful,

and not wanting to replay the same trick as last time that just happened to me a month earlier with Paris Bumas Day Off, I told him, I said, I don't know, John Hughes gave me this script. And he's like, is he asking me to do this, or what's going on? I don't want to, like, have that weird limbo thing. So, he did, anyway, they offered me to do that job, and I didn't want to do it, because I felt like it was the exact same movie that we just did

in Pretty in Pink, with just the genders reversed, so I said no, and as you said, yeah, that was the end of, I never spoke to John, I never had any interaction with him again. So which part would you have been in Some Kind of Wonderful? I think the part that Eric Stoltz played. Yeah, okay. I mean, I never-

I don't know. That would have been weird if you were in both of those movies, because I do feel like they're a little too close so I think your instincts were right yeah I mean yeah it was just sort of a no brainer really it's also like I don't it's the same movie we just did it you know and so

well the most interesting revelation for the book of a part you didn't get that I was as soon as I read it I was like ah that would have worked was the sure thing because that was a great part you were in class with John Cusack you had the bigger part than him as soon as I read it, I was like, ah, that, that, that would have worked was the sure thing. Cause that was a great part. You were in class with John Cusack. You had the bigger part than him. He ended up getting it. But, um,

I thought I love that movie. It's one of my favorites. And John's great in that movie, you know? So yeah. But that was one of those weird, funny, what was funny about it is because I only found out 25 years later when I ran into uh Rob Reiner again you know what happened was I was I auditioned for the movie and I auditioned with Mayor Winningham they paired people up in that movie when um they were auditioning Rob wanted actors to read together as opposed to reading with casting directors because casting directors tend to be pretty awful actors generally um and so he paired actors up so i read with mayor winningham who i had not known

before um it was before st. elm's fire and so we read and when i and i did one really well and you could feel the love in the room you know as they say and i thought and when i mean rob was super complimentary and it was all going really well and you know i left and then i never heard anything then i heard nope not gonna happen i was like oh that seems weird and anyway 25 cut to 25 years and it was all going really well. And, you know, I left and then I never heard anything. Then I heard, nope, not going to happen. And I was like, oh, that seems weird. And anyway, 25, cut to 25 years later, I was directing Rob in a TV show called Happy-ish. And he said, you know, you auditioned for my movie. I go, I know I did.

And you didn't cast me. And I thought I did really good. So he goes, yeah, yeah. Because, but when you walked out of the room, I heard you start whistling in the hallway. And whatever reason goes, yeah, yeah. Because, but when you walked out of the room, I heard you start whistling in the hallway. And whatever reason you were out, midnight heard you whistling, you were out. And I was like, well, huh?

But it was just funny because we both sort of remembered it. And it was the last day he was filming on the show. And lovely guy, Rob, super great. And so we'd had this lovely relationship. And I'm like, I'm not going to mention this audition 25 years later. And he brought it up to me as he's leaving, you know?

So he thought I'm trying, cause I read that in the book and I was trying to figure out what his, well, I just think he thought I was cocky. Interesting. Cause you could say he thought you're cocky or he thought, um, you were too kind of loosey goosey and didn't take it seriously enough.

One of those two. Yeah, that's a weird one. So then you have, I was really delighted that you still stand by Weekend at Bernie's because that movie's funny. I love Bernie. That's a great one.

I think it's great. I mean, yeah, I think Bernie's great. I love it. And it works and it holds up and it's actually kind of better now than it was 10, 15 years ago. It's sort of come back in this way. And, you know, one of the reasons there are memes all the time of whoever happens to fall ill, whatever politician stumbles downstairs or having a bad week, suddenly there's me and Jonathan Silverman holding up Bernie. Holding up whoever the politician is, you know. So, no, I think Bernie's kind of great. I'll say that from that era of mid-'80s through early-'90s, the two...

Actually, let's go through the-'90s. The three movies that, in the theater, people were uproariously laughing through, that I think that's been lost in history just because now people watch stuff on TV all the time. But Naked Gun, Weekend at Bernie's, and There's Something About Mary were like people riotously laughing in the theater. Those are the three that stand out to me, like people just dying. Oh, man. There's something about being in a movie theater full of people that are just

all laughing together that is just so fantastic. But I remember watching Borat in the movie, the first Borat movie. That's a good one. Yeah, no, I was the guy left out. The whole audience, I remember I was in the last row. It was packed. I got the last seat and I'm in the back row.

And people were going crazy, laughing. And I was just sitting there going, what the fuck am I missing here? I felt so left out of that party. But when you're in a room with people laughing like that, it's fantastic. Yeah. No,

it's, it's really, and Naked Gun was great at the time. Yeah. It crushed. Uh, Mary is really fun. Really good movie.

We didn't talk about less than zero. So you talked about the energy of the filming of it was way off and everybody was in a weird spot and it's just like, well, that's what it is. Like you talked about the energy of the filming of it was way off and everybody was in a weird spot and it's just like... Well, that's what it means. Like you talked about, you know, it was starting to get to the end of that kind of era of that loose, crazy kind of party, kind of, you know, we're working, but we're partying. It's all just kind of no boundaries kind of thing.

And it started, you know, the party, it was like the party was getting late. Yeah. You're chasing that first high at three in the morning, and you're just chasing it harder, and you're grinding, and literally grinding your jaw and just grinding for that one last pop. And that's what that whole movie felt like. That whole movie just felt like this party is over,

and we are pushing too hard to keep it going. And that was a dark experience. And the movie, of course, the movie is very dark and, but filming it was a very sort of dark experience too. I did not enjoy that at all. I usually enjoyed everything that I did while I was doing, you know, I'd be overwhelmed or whatever, or kind of think, Oh, maybe it's not going so well with that movie. I,

there wasn't a minute of that movie that I, I liked the people, people were all great. I loved Bobby, but he was like going through his well-publicized total meltdown. And that was scary, you know, what was going on with him. And to see that, and then there was just a lot of drugs around that set and a lot of kind of darkness. And it was a miserable experience. And I thought the movie, you know,

the movie was off from the start because there's not a word of Brett's book in it. You know, when I signed on for that movie, we were getting one script by a guy named Michael Christopher in this playwright that was very kind of faithful to the book. And then a couple of months later, when I went out to LA to start doing the movie, I attended an entirely new script that had nothing to do with the book.

And it was like, what, huh? And it, and then as we did it, it was, they realized it was too dark. And then, so they tried that. We've reshot about 30% of it where they're like, we got to flush cocaine down the toilet to make it a bit of a Nancy Reagan,

just say no, you're a kind of movie and all that kind of stuff. And so the movie to me was this weird hybrid mishmash and, you know, didn't really work. Yeah, I have a complicated relationship with it it was this weird hybrid mishmash and, you know, didn't really work. Yeah. I have a complicated relationship with it because I do think it's like kind of a weirdly important document of what you just mentioned,

like kind of the party's about to end here and that movie's really flawed. There's a darkness to it that I think you can feel with the actors. Like there's this real life blending into the actual movie, but at the same time, like that darkness is kind of why it's a fascinating movie now, you know? Yeah, I get all that.

And I get, you know, I think if the movie had stayed, if they'd let Merrick Gniewska, the guy who's directing it, make that movie, he was an outsider. He's from England.

He just wanted to like, he didn't have any judgment of this sort of rich Beverly Hills subculture, which are basically studio executives, kids. he didn't have any judgment of this sort of rich Beverly Hills subculture, which are basically studio executives' kids. He didn't have any opinion about that. He just wanted to sort of capture it in a beautiful cinematic way. Ed Lachman's cinematography and the score, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful film to look at.

But the studio then was scared of all that, and so they just tried to improve it. It's like they just mushed with it and messed with it and if they just let it be this hard dark movie at least it would have been truthful then and so it would have had its own integrity whereas now i just feel like it's a mishmash and so it doesn't support it demands of you a certain kind of thing because it's so dark and yet it isn't truthful enough

to support your emotional investment in it so it's not a good movie because it doesn't stand its ground and stand to its guns. You know what I mean? So it's not, you can't go there with it because it doesn't go there with you. You know, there are movies that are dark. I can't think of one right now

that are just relentless, you know, but they have the courage and the convictions kind of, and that movie backed off in a way that's unfortunate when it could have been something really strong. Well, I was personally wounded that you didn't go into A Year of the Gun at all

as you were recapping in your book some of these movies you run. Well, luckily, that was in the 80s, so that was also, talking about from dark to really dark experience. You said Frankenheimer in Rome. Yeah, I figured that would have been at least 10 pages. It's its own little volume there. Yeah.

No, that was, John was a tough guy, man. He was, yeah, John didn't like me. And I don't think he liked anybody.

I, maybe not, but he didn't like me, and he didn't like me being forced down his throat to be in that movie. And, you know, I was miscast in that movie. I would love to, you know, do a movie like that now. You know, that's such an interesting topic, the Red Brigades and all that.

I wasn't up to that. I was at the end of my drinking, too, so I was not up to that movie. Yeah. I was of my drinking too. So I was not up to that movie. Yeah. I was in a bad place and John was a recovering alcoholic. So he had no tolerance for me. He, and I was terrified of him and he was a real, frankly,

real bully to me. And I wish I just stood up to him and said, go fuck yourself, old man. And he might've said, but I, I was just so scared of him that I let him just keep pounding on me. And it was, you know, and, you know, I don't know what the logic was, because that certainly wasn't the way to get the best out of me.

You know, his own selfish motivation. It wasn't, you could see that, oh, this isn't working with this kid. You know, maybe the tough love like that works and that kind of berating worked with some people but it didn't work for me with me and you think he kind of would have realized well this maybe i'll try a different tax with this guy but um well you know you're filming you're filming that and sharon stone's in it who's just on this podcast um and she's a year away from becoming the biggest star in the world but you have no idea as you're filming this. She's about to have the movie that changes her life. But in this movie, she's in another one of the movies she made over this run. Well, she's just on the Terminator movie.

I think she's in that movie, and it was right before the- Total Recall, yeah. Before the Basic Instinct movie, yeah. But my recollection was that Sharon very much felt her, uh, she was totally ready to step into that start. I mean, she was behaved and in a lovely way, but I mean, she had a confidence of like going toward that. That was, she was already inhabiting that, you know, in my experience of her in that. Yeah. So you wrote about this in the book. You, um, you did a podcast with Al Baldwin a few years ago and he, he basically said casually to you, like, cause you're talking about all the drinking you had, all the issues you had in the late eighties, early nineties, and kind of derailed, you know, this ascent you were on and he was like, you didn't want it. And you were, you were kind of startled the way he said it.

And then it kind of made you rethink like, wait, is that true? Did I not want it? And where did you land on that whole subject? Well, he said it in a way, you know, we were talking about, I don't remember, but as you were saying, and he goes, well, maybe you just didn't want it that much. And it really it did take me back because part of me very much did it just it just sort of like turned a light bulb on in me

that started me thinking that you know i have so much ambivalence in many ways about so many things in my life that but who doesn't want to be a movie star who doesn't want to be hugely successful and acclaimed and all this kind of stuff and then the answer to that for me is you know a large part of me doesn't you know i wanted to be successful i wanted you know i loved acting i wanted to get opportunities to do movies i want to do i wanted to be regarded and respected i wanted to be all the you know that kind of stuff and yet part of me wanted to go hide under a rock and I always thought it was just sort of you know something I needed to overcome or get over or I never even actively acknowledged that aspect of me that I was so like you know I jokingly said I said like that Dr. Dolittle

animal with the long with the head on both sides like a push me pull you I want to go this way but I don't want to go that way and that I'm And that paradox and the conflict exists in me in kind of every aspect of my life. And that was such a big aspect of my life that my pull away was just as big. And until Alex said that, it didn't even dawn on me that kind of internal struggle that I had. And when he did, it was a, when it did, it was a huge relief to me to go, Oh, part of me just doesn't want that life. Doesn't and isn't sort of cut out for that kind of thing. And, and that's fine, but just my, my not being aware of that for so long caused me a lot of discomfort,

you know? And so that was that was yeah that was a real revelation and and of course in knowing something like that then you can have a lot more sort of compassion for it and I'm much more aware of that sort of vacillation inside but you know all that said a lot of my reticence and sort of circumspect and and pulling back and watching has served me very very well in my life. And it's helped make me a more informed my acting and certainly informed writing, because that's what writers do. And so it's not to be just sort of dismissed as an unfortunate thing.

It's part of my strengths. You know, I'm the weakness of my strengths and the strengths of my weaknesses, like we all are, you know. And so it is a complicated i didn't have and don't have that unabashed boom let me add an ambition you know i never had it regarding anything and that is a good and a bad thing you know but i see i find people that are wildly successful have that drive and that's where they're going and get out of my fucking way and they can be charming as hell and good nice about it but that's where they're going like you say about Sharon Stone when she when we were doing that movie she was going there and she was lovely

and beautiful and sexy and smart but she was going there and so whenever I'd see people like that I would just kind of stand back and marvel at them wow how can they be so sure and like Tom I remember meeting Tom you know in the book, I talked about there's this day in the Paramount 75th anniversary special that they invited all these movie stars and legends to come to Paramount, mingle for a couple hours on a soundstage and have their picture taken in front of the Paramount gate. And I was invited to this somehow because I had made Pretty in Pink and

Mannequin had just come out and was successful and they thought I was the star on the rise. So there's Jimmy Stewart, there's Gregory Peck, there's Charlton Heston there's De Niro there's Deborah Wayne there's all I mean he's massive Olivia de Havilland there's all these stars there and there was these legendary people you know and there's Tom Cruise sitting there right in the middle of him with his red sweater on and he is just holding court and I was like wow wow how does he do that I could never I was like felt like I should be checking the code and it wasn't even I was just so awed and overwhelmed by that and Tom just sort of felt so his right and his destiny to belong there in the

middle of it and it's neither good nor bad it just like i looked at that and i kind of in the same way i look at sharon when you said that i hadn't thought about sharon well in that regard but she was the same way when people have that drive and that ambition and that and it's not it doesn't make them bad people it doesn't mean they're insensitive it doesn't mean they step on people on their way up it just means damn they're going there and that but i thought you did a good job of laying it on the book it seemed like you were really thoughtful and self aware about everything as it was happening to you and you had that story about

right when you were really famous like after the St. Elmo's fire and you're at some table and everybody's laughing at your jokes and they're not even that funny and you were like I gotta get out of here and you left I think some people when you hit a certain point

when it's happening to you, some people don't want to be that person. They don't, they don't want people to see them in the way that they aren't, you know, and they just kind of retreat from it, which seems like that's what you were doing a little bit. Well, fame, you know, I've always said fame changes people on a cellular level, you know, and I am a different person than I would have been had I not been successful in movies when I was in my early 20s. And the glib line is that people stop whatever age you get famous at is the age you stop developing at. And I think there's some truth in that. It's a little simplistic, but I think there's some truth in that.

Because you spend your childhood thinking you're the center of the universe. And then you get out into the world and you start to kind of go learn that your mother was wrong and you're not really the center of everything. And that's a good thing to sort of develop in that. And then you get famous and it turns out, no, you are the center of it all. And you kind of start behaving in that way again. And that's really not the best way to develop into a well-rounded human being. And so part of me knew that and I, you know,

yet I want to be treated special and yet, and I want to have the things that come with it. And, and it allows me to do kind of better, you know, more interesting projects if you are of that kind of fame, because you'll be, you know, they'll want you on a business level. And yet on the other hand, you're kind of like, well, this is kind of weird. And it's not that, like I said, fame is not the ground on which, it's a hollow ground on which to find your feet,

you know, when you're a young 20-year-old person. I've said many times, I don't think people should get famous before they're 30. I would say that's pretty good advice. I mean, sometimes you can't help it. But yeah, you even see it in basketball sometimes and football and some of these sports where the guys are anointed as,

you know, these incredible superheroes when they're 15, 16, 17. A lot of times it doesn't work out. Like you're getting awarded with this attention and acclaim and you haven't really done anything yet, you know? And in movies and TV and music, same thing. Like you can have one movie, you think you're hot shit and you haven't really done anything yet. And in movies and TV and music, same thing. You can have one movie, you think you're hot shit

and you haven't had a career yet. It takes work, it takes the drive, it takes the focus, all those different things. Did you ever think maybe you were a director all along? Maybe that's just what you should have been from the beginning? It didn't occur to me ever until I did it. Yes.

When I did it, I was like, was like oh my god this is this is that just felt like you know i felt relief and felt at home and felt you know because i i've been around a set for so long and i've worked some directors and i had so many of the actor issues i understood them you know the minute i started directing i felt instantly comfortable without any anxiety that acting would um listen. I mean, directing is stressful, but stress is different than anxiety. And I found great relief when I started directing. Maybe you can direct the St. Elmo's Fire

40-year college reunion movie. 35-year? Wait, would it be 35 years? Yeah, I guess so. But they wanted to do, Lauren Schuller Donner, the producer on St. Elmo's Fire, called me or emailed me and said uh they

wanted to do a zoom reading of this script you know the way people have been doing over the pandemic to sort of raise money for some thing that you wanted and i was like oh that would be so fun let's do that and then she anyway it didn't work out somebody didn't want to do it or couldn't do it or something so we did um but i you know that's one of the things just getting older too. That would be fun to do this. That'd be really fun. I think for years we kind of ran from that, but I think it'd be

fun. Especially now with all the streaming services. I'm just throwing it out there for a screenwriter out there. 35 year college reunion in Georgetown. Gang gets back together. Billy Hicks is now one of the biggest stars in the world. His music has really taken off.

Nobody can believe it. Who knew he'd be the biggest? Him and Kenny G are in a huge rivalry. We have no idea. And Emilio will be just getting out of serving 15 to 20 for stalking somebody. Yeah. Emilio's back in jail again. Another relationship's gone wrong.

Judd Nelson is working for the Trump administration. It's great. It writes itself. I really enjoyed the book. It's called Brat. Thanks for coming on. It was great to talk to you and best of luck with everything.

Thanks. I really enjoyed it. Thanks. All right. That's it for the podcast. Hope you have a great weekend. Sunday night, Rosillo and I

are going to be breaking down. We'll know what the playoff matchups are. We'll know what the playing games are. It's going to be a smorgasbord

of stuff to talk about. I cannot wait. I will see you on Sunday.