The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Bizarre NFL MVP Race and NBA Trade Ideas With Cousin Sal and Kevin O’Connor

Episode Date: November 29, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Cousin Sal to discuss the puzzling MVP conversation, the Patriots’ win over the Titans, Colts-Buccaneers, Vikings-49ers, current playoff standings, Eagles-Giants, the Bengals steamrolling the Steelers, Panthers-Dolphins, the Cowboys’ Thanksgiving loss to the Raiders, Browns-Ravens, and much more (1:15). Then they guess the lines for NFL Week 13 (20:00), followed by Parent Corner (1:07:30). Finally Bill talks with The Ringer’s Kevin O’Connor about some interesting NBA trades as the season progresses (1:18:18). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Cousin Sal and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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checking out Playing English with Derek Thompson. We just launched that podcast two weeks ago. Hope you're checking out the Prestige TV podcast as well, covering Yellowstone and Succession and a bunch of other shows this week as well. Coming up, Cousin Sal and I are going to break down another wacky weekend in football that left us with more questions and answers. And then at the tail end, Kevin O'Connor is going to come on. We're going to exchange one NBA trade that we like with one another and see what the reaction will be. That's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this almost 8.45 Pacific time on Sunday night. Just watched one of the worst football games I've ever seen in my life.

I didn't want to start the podcast with that. America deserves better. Let's start with this, Sal. Are we going to have a season without an MVP? Should we roll it over like skins? What do you think? I was just going to suggest that. Next year's where to? Your buddy Gus, now my buddy, but your

buddy first, runs this pool for many, many years. Probably 30 years. I don't know how long. If you tie, you do picks head-to-head. If you tie, you roll it over. In the winter, sometimes it rolls over. So, yeah, I think that's not bad. By the way, Gus on the seat of his pants right now waiting,

refreshing to see if Max Scherzer signs with the Mets. What a Mets weekend. The Mets actually started splurging. Unexpected. The Mets helped out my Cowboys. But, yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe you get two MVPs next year because it doesn't seem like – I feel like any other year you got three guys, you, I are screaming for Rogers or Brady or somebody,

but nobody wants it. Nobody wants this award. I looked at the MVP on FanDuel thinking one guy would jump out. So Brady's three to one. Oh, they have it up already. Okay. Allen, this was an hour ago. Allen was plus 380. Rogers was plus 750. Mahomes plus 7050. Kyler's 8-1. We haven't seen him in a month. Dak, 10-1, who's looked like crap for three weeks. Lamar's 14-1. He threw four picks today. Jonathan Taylor, 16-1.

Herbert, 16-1, who had 15 terrible passes today. Stafford, 16-1, who's breaking down. Burroughs, 36 to 1. Carr is 36 to 1. Mack Jones, 80 to 1. You can put some Mack Jones action in. Out of all those names, I was thinking like, well, the one that makes the most sense is Aaron Rodgers.

The guy who basically lied to everybody and wasn't vaccinated and has caused 17 scandals and shit on his team. And meanwhile, he's shitting on a team that looks like, other than maybe the Patriots, has the best one through 53 roster in the league. And he's been shitting on the front office and the ownership for a year because he's a diva. But I like that team. Anyway, he can't win.

So back to the original point, I think the answer is Nick Folk. I think he's been the most impactful, important guy this year. He lights out on field goals. Mark Mosley, we have precedent. Mark Mosley won an 82 during the strike season. What did he do? He was like 22 for 25. Yeah. I mean, I think Nick Folk, five field goals today, 21 fantasy points. I think that's our

answer. Yeah. All right. I mean, there's a guy with like eight interceptions on the Cowboys, count him, but yeah, it really could be any of them. Because you have, this year, the number one seed is the Ravens. And I'm sorry, I know you know the result of that game means you guys are not the number one seed just yet. But yeah, like you said, the guy who threw four interceptions propelled his team to the number one seed

after week 12. And on the other side, the number one seed, Kylo Murray, hasn't played in a month or it'll be a month by the time he suits up next week. So it is really ridiculous that nobody wants this award at all. I agree. The Pats could the Pats, I think, would are the odds on

favor to probably end up with the number one seat at this point. They don't have an MVP. I'm joking about Nick Folk. They don't have an MVP candidate. Who's the MVP on the Pats? We don't even have one. Arizona. If Kyler misses a month, he's not winning it. So it's a really weird year.

Does Brady have a game where he's like, all right, screw this. I'm just going to have... That's it. And his last game like that, maybe it wasn't his last one, but it was against the Falcons.

He plays the Falcons again this time in Atlanta this week. So maybe he's like, hey, just let me do my thing. I gave Fournette four touchdowns today. I'm going to get five myself

and we're going to put this to rest with a month left. I don't think as a longtime Brady guy who's watched him for two decades, he still doesn't look 100% comfortable. No. Especially early on. It takes him forever to warm up. It doesn't seem like he wants to take hits

early. Seems like he gets rid of the ball a little faster than maybe he should. Doesn't want to stay in the pocket. And then when they really need him, he comes through. But you look at the passing leaders. So he was through 10 games. He was almost 3,200 yards, 29 TDs, 8 interceptions. Is that current?

Have they played 10 games or 11? I think they played 11. He's on pace for high 4,000s and mid 40s TDs. So you're right. If he has the one game where he has like six TDs, lights it up, pours it on, all of a sudden it'll be the case.

Yeah, they're 8-3 if they go 4-2. Even if they're 12-5, which I don't know. They have the Panthers, the Falcons, the Saints, the Jets, the Panthers again. I mean if they're 12 and five which i don't know they have the panthers the falcons the saints the jets the panthers again i mean they're gonna be fine they're gonna have like 13 here's how bad it is i'm bored talking about it the audience is bored already we spent three minutes on it there's no answer um here's another thing that we were texting about today that i thought would be fun if you had a fantasy draft just for the last... Well, this got ruined. Last five weeks of the season. We just start over. It's like, I'm out. In our keeper league,

I got officially knocked out today. If we just want... Screw you. If you just said, hey, I'm starting a five-week fantasy league. Let's just do rounds. We won't do an auction. We'll go crazy. It's kind of crazy what the order would be. I've made my list. Why don't we just go back and forth? Well, I didn't know what we were going to do because you came up with this idea. I was like, this is great. And then Debo and Dalvin Cook went out on back-to-back plays. I'm like, oh, I don't know if those guys are coming back. They're not on my list. I'll tell you one thing. I wouldn't take a quarterback till the 15th round.

Right? Who the hell would you take first? But God, let's hear yours. Well, Taylor has to be first, right? Yeah, sure. And if we were starting next season's draft right now,

I think Taylor would also be first, right? It's close. What if Derrick Henry comes back in January and has like two really good playoff games. But yeah, no, I know what you're saying.

Yeah, you're right. It would be one of the two. I think Eckhart would be number two for either conversation. The last five weeks of the season draft or next season, he'd be three probably behind Henry and Taylor, right? Eckler, every game is putting up points. He's either scoring or he's doing stuff.

Then it gets weird. I don't even really know who the third pick would be, but the candidates, I mean, I would have had even Nick Chubb in the conversation until I watched today. Right. Yeah. You could say, maybe you go receiver and you think about,

this is crazy. Debo Samuel, who's now hurt or Cooper cup. Right. Because they've been the two most productive receivers. Debo. Why, why don't we get dual?

Um, like when is he eligible at running back? It's gotta be soon. Right. He's, he's put running back? It's got to be soon, right? He's put up more. He's got more touches than a lot of running backs. They do this in baseball, and it's fun where you have the guy... Eligibility. If he plays one inning in the outfield, all of a sudden he's eligible there. It should

be one of those things. He's running. He's getting... How many touches does he get on the ground? It's crazy. Five carries in a game, it feels like you should be eligible running back, unless you're a quarterback. Camaro, you don't know if he's coming back. You don't know what's week to week. Chicago,

Cincinnati. Oh, you know, Mixon's been pretty good. Mixon I had on there. I think Josh Allen kind of has to be on there because if you're talking about what quarterbacks do I trust the most, you would say Josh Allen,

then Mahomes, then Tom Brady, right? Those would be your top three. I guess. Lamar can't be in there. Lamar has games like he had today where he just stinks. I would wait on all those guys.

Fournette, maybe. Fournette? Think how crazy that is. It's insane. This is why fantasy is the dumbest fucking thing on the earth. And we say this every year. It's like, why do we do it?

Why do we do it to ourselves? Look at this. Debo Samuel and Cooper Cup would be our third and fourth picks. Yeah. I can't even get to 10. I can't even give you a first round. I got a couple more. I have a couple more I like.

Cordero Patterson, I think, has to be in there, especially with these last five weeks. I think he's going to put up garbage time stuff. I think Tyreek and Justin Jefferson, just from the offenses they're in, and they can have the random 30-point thing. And then Devontae Adams and Stephon Diggs. Now you're moving into Nick Chubb and that kind of guys,

the guys who can just do nothing. We would have had DeAndre Swift on that list this week, right? If he didn't get injured. Right. He was tracking towards a good ending. And by the way... Yeah, there's not too many. It's very weird this year.

Until today, and I'm sure it's shifted. I haven't looked at it. But Jalen Hurts was the number two guy for fantasy points heading into today's games. It was... I think Josh Allen was first. Now, some people had played 10 games and some people had played 11. But Jalen Hurts, who I think, was he drafted in either of the two leagues?

I don't think he was. No, he was an add-on early for sure. Yeah. So heading into today, just in our league that we've been in for a million years, it was Allen one, Hurts two, Brady three, Mahomes four, Herbert five, Stafford six, Jackson seven, and Taylor was the first running back. It's a crazy year. And this week was despicable, I have to say. And I don't like saying it because football is going to be gone. And then I'm going to have to listen to you talk about the Celtics, even though you think they're a 500 team right now, they'll win like seven in a row, and you're like,

Tatum's back. I'm taking six to one to win the East. I'm like, oh, shit. I wish football were around. I don't want to say I'm not going to get caught in the whole the season is too long and everything, but this was a very bad week. I'm not just saying that because my Cowboys lost, but start with the Bears-Lions,

a game we all knew was going to be horrible. Then the Cowboys-Raiders, which was the most watched regular season game of all time, also set a record for penalties, 14 or more on both sides. Hadn't happened in, what, 30 years or so? And then this morning, there were 25 turnovers in the seven games. The three late afternoon games had nine turnovers in three. I don't even know how many in that crap fest we saw right now between the Ravens. I mean, he had three turnovers in three. I don't even know how many in that crap fest we saw right now between the Ravens. I mean, he had three interceptions in six attempts, Lamar, at one point.

I think they had five turnovers in three minutes in the second quarter or something. There was one moment in the late games where they were pick sixes within 15 seconds of each other. Right. Yeah. Kyle and I were saying, Kyle and I watched the Pats game. I don't know if you saw it, but the Pats

won again. Shouldn't have covered. You watch all these quarterbacks and I don't know where Mac is on the ratings and the yardage and stuff, but Mac seems like he's as good as all of these guys. Every guy I'm watching, he's either better than or

as good as. Even like Herbert, who I love. I'm a huge Herbert guy. I think he's really fun to watch. What happened to him this month? He was horrendous today. Yeah. Like awful. Like really cost him the game. He was throwing everything 200 miles an hour. The Eckler pick six, which went off Eckler's

hands, happened because he whipped like a fucking line drive at him. He couldn't hold on to it. But I thought he was discombobulated all over the place and really bad. I don't know how you measure who's good or who's not. But with Mac Jones, like you get to the point where if he makes a mistake, you're surprised.

You're more surprised than a lot of those guys you just named, like Herbert and Lamar Jackson. And for sure, Baker or Ben or any of those guys, for sure. But he makes too bad throws a game. I was talking to my dad about it. We were laughing. He inherited the Brady luck. I'm going to knock on wood as I'm talking about it.

He inherited the Brady thing where every game somebody drops one of his picks. And it's always his worst start of the game. And the guy always drops it. This was Brady for 20 years with us. And then he'll have one play where he'll kind of sail it over an open guy. Other than that, he's lights out. And you're right. When he messes up a pass, it's surprising.

Which I think is a good sign for your quarterback. Another good sign, you allowed 270 yards rushing against Tennessee, who I don't know if you noticed how closely you're watching, but Derrick Henry is not part of that backfield. And you still won. Sweating it out. 23 points.

What the hell? In defense of the team that should be the win seed right now, I do think it was partly the game plan because they had a lot of D-backs out there and they basically wanted Tennessee to run. But I don't think it was in the plan to give up 68 68 yard runs to a first string running back that their defensive line, I thought got kind of dominated by Tennessee,

like really pushed back for the first three quarters. Then fourth quarter, they turned it around, but it made me think as I was watching it, it made me more and more concerned about the Colts in the playoffs. And then the Colts do, do us a massive favor. They blow the Bucks game. And you were, you were on it. You, you talk about Wentz is like a 90 minute. He's got a good 90 minutes in him.

He's like a, he's like a Liam Neeson movie. You don't want to go three hours with Liam Neeson, but 90 minutes is great. Wentz is like, it's got that good 90 minutes, but if there's an intermission and a second act, he's in trouble and you're just waiting for him to turn into Wentz.

It's like, all right, it's going to happen. And then it does. And then he does it. And all of a sudden, the Bucs are winning. Can I introduce something? I don't know what we want to call this right now. I have like, it's the Logan Roy player of the day. Like who got the most fuck offs around the country?

I guess you could check. You could check Twitter for negative tweets and negative impressions and all that. This is good. The Logan Murray word of the day. I like it. So who told which quarterback to fuck off the most today? Was it Cam, Kirk Cousins, Wentz? Oh, no.

It's definitely Kirk Cousins. Well, hold on. Herbert Stafford? Stafford, Herbert, Big Ben, Wentz, Kirk Cousins. No, come on. Kirk Cousins on a pivotal play lined up behind the right guard. That happens a lot. And had to call timeout.

He had to waste the timeout so that they could have a timeout and then they could come out of the timeout and he could sail a pass wide open over a wide open Justin Jefferson's head.

You know what's great about that? That was an actual sequence that happened. You know what's great about it? FanDuel put out, I don't know who's running their account, but they're editorializing. Their actual tweet was

the Vikings signed Kirk Cousins to $66 million extension to have him line up behind the guard to take a snap. It's like, oh, wow. Fandle did that? Fandle did it, yeah. It's on Twitter. That's where I saw the clip. I was like, this is great. We had the Vikings in million-dollar picks, which we got mildly crushed this week. But we did the picks on Tuesday,

and the Everson-Griffith thing happens after. And it's like, oh, my God. And you're thinking like, all right, maybe they can hang around. I don't like the vibe. And Cousins, man, there are these games where you're just like, aren't you supposed to be the leader of the team?

Yeah. Aren't you supposed to be the inspiration, like the rock? And he has this body language, like he's watching somebody give him a parking ticket. Like he's standing next to his car going like, oh man, really?

I was only here for two minutes. I'm just getting a coffee. That's his demeanor. He's the leader of the team. He has monster players going for the ball when he chops it off too, right? Like Thielen's still great. You know, Jefferson. I mean, he can't go wrong.

All right, so he's the Logan Roy player of the week. Player of week 12. I texted my buddy Jeff, diehard Vikings fan. I texted him at 424. It must have been after a terrible Cousins play. The Vikings, what a bunch of gutless shits. And he texted me back, I felt it happening at the end of the first half, shut it off, and

left the house. They have no escape velocity from mediocrity. And then I was texting him back, I'm like, they got the ball back, two minutes left. And he's like, I can't turn it on, I'm not doing it. It's just out. It's like literally divorce the Vikings. He needs to give us a heads up so we can bet 49ers in the second half

if he has such a... The 49ers. I mean, they've won three in a row and they stink. And the playoff picture is so horrendous. I look at that. I was going to ask you... Minnesota is the seventh seed.

Did you look at the playoffs standings? Yeah. They're in the playoffs right now. That team sucks. But even the AFC side, like which six and five, six and six, six, five and one, whatever the hell, which team scares you?

Are there any of them that scare you in that six, seven? You can't trust any of them. You can't trust the Vikings. You can't trust the Browns or you can't trust even the 49ers. Like, all right, they've won three in a row, but they lost to Colt McCoy by two touchdowns three weeks. That was a November game, right? Also, if they have a lead there, they feel like a different team. Yeah. But if they're down

seven, I don't trust them. So if the season ended today, it would be Packers-Vikings. It would be Bucks- 49ers. Oh, these are the matchups. Yeah. And Dallas-Rams. And Cardinals would be the buy. I don't think we would have anything under a three-point favorite.

I think everything would be like six points and up in that. AFC would be Pats Chargers. Bring it on. It's fun. Titans Bills. A lot of Frank Wycheck anniversary highlights. And then a little Chiefs. Chiefs Bengals would be the four or five.

Wow. So, not bad. I got excited as I was looking at it. Bengals are pl the 4-5. Wow. So, not bad. I got excited as I was looking at it. Bengals are plucky. They could stick around. The problem with this season

and why it's been so hard to bet these last few weeks is you, like I was watching Denver today, right? Like Denver, I bet on them two weeks ago against Philly

and Philly demolishes them. Just kills them. You feel like, was it last week or two weeks ago? I can't even remember. It was one of my, they're justishes them. Just kills them. You feel like, was it last week or two weeks ago? I can't even remember. It was one of my, they're just destroying them. Yeah.

And then you watch Denver today and it's like their defense is flying around. The whole sideline's locked in. Guys are jumping off the sideline to high five guys after plays. They're running the ball. They look like the team I thought I bet on against Philly.

Of course, I bet on Philly this week. The team that played Denver, I don't know, it's like the Jekyll and Hyde version. And they go against the Giants and they do everything they possibly can to lose the game. Four turnovers and a drop touchdown at the end of the game. And they still almost won. Jalen Hurts, yeah, he had three interceptions and 98 yards passing going into that last drive. And I was thinking, I was like, wow, has anyone had such bad passings? I know he ran for 77, but he had a chance to

be like under 100 yards and win that game. And the Giants just couldn't. They tried to blow it. They just couldn't do it. He had the worst body language. I also like it's kind of hard for me to believe he was putting up those stats because when you watch him, he goes back to pass and he just stares at who he's going to throw the ball to for five seconds. Then he throws it, and that one pick he threw, the giant safety,

was like, oh, he's going to throw it to this guy because he's staring at him and basically pointing at him. I'm just going to run over and take it. I don't know what happened. He's been much better in the last few weeks. I watched him closely for some reason. He's been better taking angles and stuff. He just was bad.

You could feel it immediately. Yeah, he just didn't have it. I have more Jalen Hurts stuff, but let's take a break. I want to play a little game with you. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back

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November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. We were talking about Jalen Hurts. I want to play a game called Here's What We Know For Sure. I'm going to give you a couple of things. Maybe you'll have some of that. First thing I know for sure, I'm not betting four against Jalen Hurts anymore because I've somehow lost four straight weeks on Jalen Hurts games. And I think for the season, I think I'm like 0-6 or 0-7. I'm pretty positive I haven't won a bet on the Eagles. I lost on them week one. They killed me with Atlanta. They're my kryptonite team this year. I'd like to announce publicly on this podcast, I'm no longer betting on Eagles games. I'm out.

You guys broke me. Congratulations. I wish you luck in the rest of the season. I'm done. Sayonara. All right. Let me just say something in response to that. You will be betting the Eagles,

and maybe in like six, seven days. Because all they have left are the Jets and the NFC East. Now, one of those is against the Cowboys, but you're going to be suckered into Eagles at home against the Giants in a revenge game. Not doing it. You're wrong. All right. What's next? Next.

The Roethlisberger era is officially over. It's been given last rights and the funeral date has been set. It's done. Their last three weeks, it's over. It's been given last rights and the funeral date has been set. It's done. Their last three weeks, it's over. They're going to finish, what, 6-10-1, 5-11-1, 7-8-1, it's done. It's a wrap.

And he'll retire. That'll be it. I'll do you one. I mean, he was in very late in an unwinnable game. They had three points. He was trying to get them to turn. You think they're trying to hurt him? I kind of do.

I kind of think Tomlin's like, I don't want to make this decision. Let's make it. You do your thing, Ben. It's close. We're getting close. We're going to close that casket, but you have to put the nail in. Ben, get out there. We have to get a touchdown.

Yeah. We need a touchdown for our psyche for next week. Boy, people defend him, though, still. If you look at it, people are like, this defense can't stop anything. It's not Ben's fault. They have no running game. Like, wow, they had three points heading into that last drive.

I don't know. What are you watching? Well, he came within two yards of two pick sixes in one game. Right. Have we named that after somebody? The double pick six? The pick 12? Oh, but it wasn't...

Oh, the DeLome is five interceptions? No, the DeLome is five interceptions and one has to be a pick six. That was the DeLome. Okay. Which rarely happens. I know Lamar was thinking about it today. He was flirting with the DeLome, but it's really hard to pull out.

And Ben lost a fumble, too. He had two interceptions and a fumble loss. That first pick 60 through, the guy got tackled two-yard line. And he was like, all right, so I'll try to throw it to the guy. I'm going to try to give him more of a running start the other way. And it worked the second time. And the thing is, they have Baltimore twice. And so if Baltimore plays like they did tonight,

they could probably even win one of those games. But they have to win both, I think, at this point. Next thing we know for sure, I realized this during the Vikings game, because there can't be a lot of Vikings fans left who are fired up to have Kirk Cousins as their quarterback. And yet, you looked at the season he was having, he had like 21 touchdowns and two picks heading into the game.

Best ratio. Yeah, you just look at his stats, and he's going to retire, and people 30 years from now look at his stats and be like going to retire and people 30 years from now, look at his stats and be like, you know, it was good. Kirk cousins.

He might even make the hall of fame for all we know. I just think he should change teams every year. Like how we have the automatic quarterback when we're playing recess, something like that. I think cousins should just sign one year contracts and each year goes to a new team that has had such a bad quarterback situation for years. They're just happy to have somebody who's confident. And it's basically like his campaign slogan be, I'm Kirk Cousins. I'm competent. Cause you can't say he's incompetent

cause he's competent. Like he can move the ball. He moves his chains. He makes plays. You're just not winning a Superbowl with him. Right. So if you're like the Jets and you just can't ever get a good quarterback, now that you just drafted one or you're like the Steelers next year and you're like, all right, there's no quarterback in the draft. We still have a good team. We need somebody who's competent for one year and it's Kirk Cousins. And he's just one year contracts for 20 million and he just goes around. I don't think he should ever stay for longer than a year. He's like, it's like when Dixon stays with Jimmy, he has to go like at the end of the week.

I like that. I like that. I think there's not as many teams as you think though, that would go for this because the jets don't make sense because they're not going to turn it around a year. It's not the jets. The Steelers would be the one that made sense. I don't know how many there are like that, but the Steelers,

I mean, first of all, he's, he's delighted that he's with the Vikings and he's got a long-term deal. It's like, holy shit, no one would ever sign, you know, not like this. Go back to last year. Carolina and Denver both needed quarterbacks, right?

So Denver trades for Bridgewater. Carolina trades for Sam Darnold. Right. If we have Kirk available over your cousins out there, he's just like, hey, just you don't have to trade a pick for me. I'll come in. I'll be competent. I'll be a competent QB guy for a year. Then he just goes, it's always

positive. He's arrived. He's happy. Big smile on his face. I've had a good career. The last piece is the Super Bowl. That's my Kirk Cousins idea. He shouldn't stay in Minnesota. He infects everybody on different teams every year with the Omicron virus.

Yeah, I don't mind that. That's pretty good. Justin Jefferson is the new leader. And he seems like an awesome guy, by the way. I'm pro-Justin Jefferson. I like him. He had two times today where it was a terrible Cousins pass where he just lost his vertebrae for like a second.

Remember the old Larry Fitzgerald with those terrible Cardinals quarterbacks? The throw over his head where he was just like, oh my God. He was doing that. He did that twice today, Jefferson. Jefferson is a treasure. I love that guy. Well, remember Stefan Diggs used to literally stare him down.

Yeah, he would just stop running. It was like Ron Esther and Fred Samford. It was like a comical stare down for like 10 seconds after a play. All right, here's the next thing we know. Let's get the fork ready for Cam Newton. It's a wrap. It's a wrap. Put a fork in him.

He's done. At one point, he was 5 for 21 for like 90 yards and two picks. I don't know if that's what he ended with or not. Well, they benched him. I think that's exactly what he had. Yeah. They tooked him. They took him out. He completed a 64-yard pass in the first quarter, and they showed

the stats, and he was 1-for-4 for 64 yards. I was like, oh, that's not a good sign. He had a 64-yard pass, and then the rest of the game, he was 4-for-20 for 28 yards or something. Yeah, and he's not running three rushes, five yards.

We had Miami a million dollar picks and it was only like, how many weeks do we have to bet against Cam Newton before he never starts another football game? God bless him. Really fun to watch, but he's not accurate anymore. And, and physically,

you know, it happens, man. You take some hits. We've seen it with boxers. We've seen it with basketball players. We've seen it with basketball players. Sometimes you just pass that point. It's over.

I'm fine with that. You're saying Kirk Cousins to Carolina next year? Maybe that could be. Yeah. Automatic Kirk. One year. One year and out. I can't believe the Dolphins.

I know. I don't want to derail your thing here, but they've won five in a row or four in a row? We didn't. We talked about it either. It was either with you or with Schrager, but we laid out the case where they could easily be seven and seven. We did that before the

games this week because it was like they had to be Carolina. They played the Falcons close. Well, they beat the Texans. But if they beat Carolina, now they have New York, New York back to back, which that should be named something they have New York, New York back-to-back, which that should be named something, the New York, New York,

when you have the Jets-Giants back-to-back. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they could be 7-7, and 7-7 in the AFC, like, you know. Well, they... You're going to be in the mix. They end with you guys, and they're going to need that game to make them.

I can't believe, like, I thought they would contend with Houston and the Lions, and I'm like, all right, they're going to need that game to make them. I can't believe, like, I thought they would contend with Houston and the Lions. And I'm like, all right, they're going to be up there for number one pick or top three pick. I can't believe they're doing what they're doing here. Waddle's phenomenal. Yeah, Waddle's been great. And they

traded an extra first-round pick for him, and it worked out. That leads us to the next thing we know. I think Detroit's locked it up. I think 0-10-1, I think the worst record in the league is going to happen. I don't think they're going to be able to get... They'd need two wins to pass Jacksonville. There's only six games left. They are just abominably coached.

You know, it was the first Thanksgiving game. We moved on to Raiders-Cowboys, which was just an incredibly fun game. Not fun for you, not fun for me, because I gave them to the Cowboys. But it was a really entertaining game that was egregiously officiated and is yet another game that if we have gambling scandals that we find out about 20 years from now,

it's on my list. That's going to be too many. Yeah, we've had three this weekend. Sixers-Timberwolves was another one. The Lions, though, what a terrible coaching job. Sixers, Timberwolves was another one. The Lions, though, what a terrible coaching job. I mean, honestly,

incredible down the stretch. It was like the old joke about a 10-year-old playing Madden. Like, a 10-year-old. How old's Harrison? Seven? Seven-year-old playing Madden, I think, pulls off that whatever. I just think they're broken now. I don't see them winning a game. Yeah, I don't want to say that coach has

lost the clubhouse, but now it's getting to a point where, say what you will about Minnesota, they should lose that game. Then they at Denver versus Arizona, at Atlanta, at Seattle versus Green Bay, they definitely have the worst record locked up. How about the back-to-back timeouts? Was that epic or what? Really good.

Really good. Do you just not know the rule or your panic case there? It was a panic case. Next thing. I don't know who wins the AFC North, but I'm not sure anybody wants to win it. Now you could say, no, Baltimore, they're scrappy.

They're the number one seed. They're pulling it out. But are you impressed by Baltimore? No. I mean, when you tell me they're the number one seed, I was like, I trust them like fourth most at any AFC team. I can't believe they're eight and three and five and one at home. Baltimore, Cincy, Cleveland. I think I like Cincy the most.

And Cincy lost to the Jets. Yeah. And they lost to the Browns. They got crushed by the Browns too. Crushed. They were never in that game. I don't know, man. You look at the AFC North, there's no teams under 500.

And you look at the AFC West and four teams over 500. And those divisions play each other. Like I pointed out and you're just, you're definitely getting eight and eight teams going into week. I guess it'll be 18. Um, trying to decide who's going to get in eight, eight and eight,

eight, seven to one, whatever it's going to be. We can take a quick detour and talk about that Ravens Browns game for two minutes. I don't understand how case kingdom doesn't play in that game. And the fact that Baker is tough and look at the leader, like, yeah, he's tough, great.

He looked like a three-year-old trying to piss in a urinal today, the way the ball was spraying around. Like, even the touchdown to the tight end, guy was wide open. He had to dive to the ground. I know. It's not where you want to hit your tight end. Baker, he just shouldn't be playing.

And Case Keenum, I don't know, say what you want about him, but at least he's quarterback playoff teams. He's not a disaster. Healthy Case Keenum is better than whatever we watched from Baker the last couple weeks. I think they could potentially make the playoffs with Case Keenum. Me too. Like I said, everyone's a tough game.

They have a bye and then play the Ravens again. They're at the Packers, they're at the Steelers, and they have the Bengals and the Raiders. They have all teams vying for the playoffs. I have a Baker theory. I'm on fire today with the pod. Just bringing a lot of A-plus content. Remember in Fight Club when Tyler Durden was intentionally hurting himself?

Yeah. I think Baker's trying. I think he's injuring himself because healthy Baker, like where are you going? But injured Baker, now it's like, oh, look at this guy, man. He's so tough. He's a warrior.

Meanwhile, the balls are sailing around. I think he went back in the locker room and like rammed his shoulder against the wall. Make sure it like loosened up a little bit more. Do you think he's doing it in the locker room or at home? Like, is this something his wife can clue us in on in a few weeks? She's probably going to angrily tweet at me. Don't say a word.

This is our secret. Baker tells his wife, don't say anything. I'm banging my knee with him. I'm going to kick the coffee table as hard as I can. Trying to loosen up some cartilage here. I like it. I think he should just keep intentionally injuring himself. Last one. I don't know if keep intentionally injuring himself. Yeah. Last one.

And I don't know if you have any things that you believe in. Let's say I didn't know this was coming. Well, I know you did. Yeah. If these were the two title games in conference round three,

if it was Bucks-Packers, Pats-Chiefs. Great. Out of those four. Sign me up great out of those four sign me up out of those because that would be a really nice final four

by the way I know the Cowboys wouldn't be in there but Bucks Packers you'd have Brady versus Rogers plus you'd have Rogers at this weird moment of

oh my god this guy might make the Super Bowl after he shit on this franchise all year and then you'd have Pat's Chiefs

Belichick, Andy Reid, you know, all the replay of the game three years ago, only we have a different quarterback. Out of those four teams, which one are you the most dubious of being there in the final four? Bucks, Packers, Pats, Chiefs? Well, I hate to say, like I said,

if my Cowboys weren't in that, that would be the most entertaining four. I would have to be guaranteed the Bucs couldn't meet the Patriots in the Super Bowl that I just would not be able to watch. I'd have to be guaranteed that. The Chiefs is the answer. You're the most debased of the Chiefs.

Yeah, as crazy as that sounds. We've seen more good games, more solid games out of those three teams other than the Chiefs than we have out of the Chiefs. Now, that could change in a month, but right now, that's the answer. My only question with the Bucs is just like, at some point, the injury cloud becomes

where it starts raining on you. They lost Devin White today. It just seems like they're losing two guys a game. And Indy Wentz was throwing downfield on them a shocking amount, just trying to take advantage of the secondary stuff, and it worked for a

little while. The Colts are going to end up 7-10. I'm going to be like, they're the best team in the AFC. Get them in the playoffs somehow. I don't know how this is happening. Get them in. Well, right now, they're 10th. It's funny to see all the teams laid out. Cleveland is 12th in the AFC right now

and they're 6-6 and they beat the shit out of Cincy, what, two, three weeks ago and Cincy's fifth. The Chargers are in now? Yeah, you said the Chargers are in, right? They'd go to New England. If we're going to be like, alright, who's going to actually end up here? There's some 7-4s in there that are tied.

I think the Chargers fall out. I just don't think they're good. Yeah. We have like a month-long sample size now that that's not a good team. So you're saying the AFC West, even though we had three teams potentially make it, will only have one representative in the playoffs? Unless you think the Raiders sneak in. The Raiders have had some good wins. And I poured dirt on them a week ago.

They put up 500-plus on your team. I can't believe it. So I guess the question is, do you have... Like, do we just throw out all the Thursday games? Do we just say, like, let's never learn one lesson from a Thursday game? It's not a bad start. And how about a Thursday game?

I don't want to make excuses, but we had assistant coaches out due to COVID. Our top two pass rushers were out, right? We had a D-back Brown who really, like, if he had played on my son Archie's team, I'd be like, oh, they got to cut him. I know you don't cut a high school kid, but you got to cut, like, we had four penalties and, like, two big plays he gave up. Like, you know, they were terrible.

They weren't ready. And, you know, Zeke was hobbly, and they had two wide receivers out. That doesn't speak to why they gave up over 500 yards against a wallerless offense. Well, you won the coin flip. You won the coin flip. The game should, you should go down and score. And that should be a terrible kick return.

Yeah. I can't believe Denver and the Chargers have the same record. Like I'm looking at this thing. We didn't learn anything through three months. We say this at least once a year in the pod. And I don't think we've said it this year, so I'm going to say it. What Carr did in that game, I do not understand

why more teams don't do that have mediocre offenses or are undermanned in some way. He was just fucking chucking it downfield and hoping to get either a lucky pass or have a guy open or get a PI. And it worked half the time.

And the other half half the time. And the other half of the time it was just incomplete. Like if you're a bad team or a mediocre team, why wouldn't you do that? Like, why doesn't Minnesota do that with Jefferson eight times a game? Like, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? He's either going to catch it or they're going to interfere with him.

The red car was like laughing. He was like, all right, they're just going to get up. I'm just going to keep doing this. He wasn't even doing it with fast guys. He was was like laughing. He was like, all right, they're just going to get up. Just keep doing this. He wasn't even doing it with fast guys. He was doing like Zay Jones. Well, how about this? You get a good end.

It's like an indicator after like the sixth pass interference call. You're like, Oh wow. I got these refs where I want them. I'm definitely, it's like a comedian. Like he tells a dirty joke and he gets the audience laugh. Yeah.

He's like, Oh, I'm going to dig into my blue stuff here. All right, good, good. Why not? And that's and that's yeah you're right that's what car did and that's why that game went overtime and especially bad i mean to me the chargers are a team that should do that yeah because herbert has a cannon they have two scary receivers and i would just chuck it down field all the time i would have done it if i were the titans i would have done it in the second half when that game was close against the Pats. Just throw it down.

See what happens. Yeah. Maybe they did run for like 300 yards, but yeah. Yeah, they did. It was a meaningless 300 yards. So I don't know.

I I'll tell you what, I made a mistake with the Mac and cheat. Remember I called Mac Jones. I didn't like that. You got screwed up. It was an obvious joke that I missed. And someone pointed out on Twitter, the combination of Mac Jones and Belichick should be Mac and cheat.

Like it should be like, Oh, Mac and cheat. Look what they really got it together. It shouldn't be Mac Jones. That's so I'm going to change it now to that from, from free hair forward. That's funnier.

I still don't support it. Okay. A couple other small things for you. Kyle Shanahan watch. Mm-hmm. Up to 35 and 40. Good news. He just jumped Jerry Glanville.

He did? Yeah. Jerry Glanville is at 465 winning percentage. I think Shanahan's at 466. Look out. Neil Armstrong, Dutch Clark, and John Makovich. Because those there, he's looking right up. Neil Armstrong? Who? Yeah, there's a coach named Neil Armstrong, Dutch Clark, and John Makovich. Because he's looking right up. Neil Armstrong?

Who? Yeah, there's a coach named Neil Armstrong. Is that Neil Armstrong? Yeah, Neil Armstrong. He's looking at Ray Rhodes now. Ray Rhodes and Forrest Gregg at 469. Oh, that could be good. Yeah, they're right there.

That's one thing. The other thing, I was thinking about Nick Folk, who I mentioned earlier, who's one thing. The other thing I was thinking about Nick folk, who's I mentioned earlier, who's just been completely lights out, right? He's, he's missed two kicks all year and they're both 50 plus just over and over again.

It's like right down the middle. And I was thinking like, God, when I was a kid, I was always excited when the paths made a field goal. So I went back and looked at our old field goal kicker, John Smith, who was an English guy.

Oh, yeah. And his career, he was 128 for 191. He had a 67% field goal thing. From 40 plus. They didn't try bombs back then either. Yeah. From 40 yards plus, he was 29 for 68.

Oh, yeah. That many? Wow. 40, 45%. He kicked for 10 years. He had one year... He had one year when he was 15 for 24 in the 81 season.

The wind was more fierce back then. You don't remember. You think it was? You think the elements were worse? Global warming has evened everything out. I will say this. If you look now, everybody's like 90, 95. It's like people make them almost all the time

or they'll doink them sometimes. I'm trying to think. The play of the year so far is probably a kick, right? It's probably Tucker's 66-yarder that has given them the number one seed or maybe even, I know you love them, but folks miss against Tampa Bay. I don't know.

Right. Like those are like two of the most memorable plays of the year. You can go into, it's probably a lot more kicking wise. I mean, that probably, that probably costs folk, the MVP,

that Tampa. That's true. That's true. He makes that it's a serious discussion now. Sure. It beats at least on the Fando thing. All right. We,

uh, we're gonna take a break and then do guest lines. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit.

More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further with access to over 1400 airport lounges worldwide redefine possible with business platinum that's the powerful backing of american express terms and conditions apply visit amex.ca slash business platinum all right before we do guess the linesines, the Eagles really hurt my feelings today. No, you hated that.

And the Cowboys really hurt my feelings on Thursday. I did the thing where for two straight weeks, I loved the Patriots the most of any game. Patriots against the Falcons. Oh, and then the week before, Pat's parents. Every week I love the Patriots. I'm like, we're going to win. I want to put their money line with bets.

And then I somehow lose more of the bets than I win using the Pat's money line, which I felt the most confident about than anything. You've been around the block with gambling. Are you just better off betting the money line? Yeah, I think you're better betting

just underdog money lines until they hit i was thinking about this today because i lost an ungodly amount of money and i got lucky too like i like i had some weird stuff in college go bounce my way and i still had a very very bad week and i had that boxer lopez it was like minus 12 i don't even want to talk about and a million things that went wrong but um yeah i think i need a break i think i need something because now it's getting i feel like i need a break too i feel like i i feel like i'm have a black cloud over me all of a sudden no i know but i this is like serious like financial shit i gotta worry about you're gonna be okay i'm dug a bad hole here you had lopez in the fight

of the year going against this undefeated Australian who I missed the first six rounds and you and Kevin Clark would text me. Kevin Clark gave us a heads up the minus 1200 favorite is going through a bad divorce and as a result of me betting him I'm now going to be going through a bad divorce because

he lost on a split decision and then they did the all time dick tease ever where they're like, and then 115, 112 to the winner and still undefeated. So I'm like, oh, Lopez, he won. And it was the other guy because the other guy

was also undefeated. It was the all-time dick tease. He was like, what? How is that guy also undefeated? The guy that beat the shit out of me nine out of 12 rounds. He's still undefeated too. Oh, it was bad.

But I told you, my favorite fights are the lightweight and the welterweight because I just think it's the perfect combination of power speed. Like he, I don't know if those guys, this is terrible to say, but that was one of those fights where I'm not sure either guy is ever going to be a hundred percent the same as a boxer. Like there was so much punishment. You saw their faces after, it was like both of them had been in a car accident. I'm sure there'll be a rematch. If you list our top 10 favorite fights, probably

seven or eight of them are in that welterweight, middleweight division. It reminded me, it was like I had a Taylor Chavez. Those guys aren't, I don't think, as good as Taylor Chavez were, but same kind of thing where it was just 12 rounds. I watched the first six this morning. Just 12 rounds and just boom, boom, boom,

boom, boom, and it never let up. Amazing stuff. It's like Corrales and Castillo a little bit. That's the gold standard. Really highly skilled, too. I was texting with Chris Mannix about it. There was animosity, which I liked because you see the great boxing fights, but

I felt like these guys, even after the fight, like Lopez was still kind of like, yeah, fuck you. Get away from me. Good stuff. Disgusting. Other than the fact that you lost money on it. Jeez. And then I asked you if I could put the Pats in a tease with Ohio State. As you know, I know nothing about college football.

You're like, yeah, that sounds great. They give up the opening touchdown and then the kickoff they take to the seven yard line. I'm like, oh, so this is going to be lost. It that sounds great. They give up the opening touchdown, and then the kickoff, they take to the seven-yard line. I'm like, oh, so this is going to be a loss. It was like snow. They're fighting in the tunnel. I don't know. They held the best running back in the country to 25 yards rushing two weeks ago.

And then Michigan was playing with two extra linemen or something. Weird. So Michigan, who knows? All right, guess the Lions, week 13. We're tied 5-5-2 going into unlucky week 13 by the way

we've the cross offs we have for the NFL are Detroit the Jets Jacksonville Houston

Seattle the Giants Chicago Miami we crossed off Miami huh yeah I feel like we have to uncross them

I don't know I think there's a path for them to go like 9-8 and they might be like a 6 way 9-8 Miami, huh? Yeah, I feel like we have to uncross them. I don't know. I think there's a path for them to go like 9-8 and it might be like a six-way 9-8 tie for the seventh seed. I don't know. I think it's slippery slope. We uncross them and then kids who idolize us start uncrossing teams

and next thing they're doing heroin. It's just bad. I personally would cross off Carolina. I think they're a season shot. Were they 4-0? They're 5-7, and I don't see a path for them. They're 4-0, right? Yeah.

Yeah, they're bad. They're a bad team. And McCaffrey's out again. Yeah, it's a tough one. Okay, Thursday night. You're're Cowboys how many people had that either a Pat's Bills

Pat's Cowboys or Pat's Bills Cowboys tees heading to Thursday like everybody right so Cowboys cost a lot of people a lot of money is your defense just not good no come on.

I told you. We're missing some guy. It does seem like if Diggs doesn't get an interception, like we're just out of the game. We don't have a chance. But I am more in the camp of let's throw the Thursday games out and let's wait until the pass rush comes back and we'll get a better sense.

Can we at least stop blowing Dan Quinn for what a great job he's doing? Yeah, we may be. Because that performance against Vegas was one of the worst defensive game plans I've seen in my entire life. And against a team that really for all intents and purposes gave up the Raiders, right? Like everyone's like, no, they've melded in and they got second life here

in Dallas. That's why those Thursday games are so dangerous. It's like, yeah, we gave up. It's a Thursday. Who cares? Let's just start chucking the ball. And then all of a sudden you get some PIs and you get excited. But now you got a Thursday game that both teams will have had a week off. So it's kind of like a regular game. And you have Seedy in this game.

Yes, he's back. I have the Cowboys by four in New Orleans. All right. By the way, something's very wrong if you don't beat me this week. I get this one. It's five and a half. I said six and a half. It's right in the Vegas zone.

But I was off on a lot of these by a good amount. Five and a half. That's fine. This Camara thing is nonsensical already, not knowing if he's going to come back. How do you bet anything without him? Can I add the Saints to my list of teams that I can't believe didn't take a chance on Gardner Minshew?

Hmm. He's not better than Trevor Simeon? Right. We almost saw Gardner today. One more Hurts pick. That would have been it. I thought it was happening second half. I was waiting for it. But I think they're all in on Hurts.

Unfortunately, they were all in on Jalen Rieger over Justin Jefferson last year in the draft. That's a tough one. Yikes. That's a keep you up at nighter. Sunday's marquee game, Raven Steelers or Bengals Chargers. Wow.

Is it that bad? Yeah, it's that bad. I think it's Raven Steelers because it's like Ben's last stand, basically, right? It's in Pittsburgh. You're right. Those are the two. Lamar's going to try to improve on his four-pick performance, maybe throw three more, still make an MVP.

Has an MVP ever thrown 25 picks in a season? Ooh. I think this is Ravens by three in Pittsburgh. You get it exactly. I said four and a half. I didn't like anything I said. Well, I did do this before the game tonight, but I still think they're a decent amount better than Pittsburgh.

It's five, five, and one. It's weird. You do forget how many running backs they've gone through. I do wonder if Dobbins just never gets hurt. Yeah, right. Are the Ravens a completely different team? Yeah. But I guess this is the thing with running backs.

Half of them seem to get hurt now. All right. For the watchables, I only have one watchable. You want to do Chargers-Cincy, right? Yeah, that's my watchable. Bengals-Chargers. It's in Cincy. And I think Cincy

has to be favored by three. So this is the AFC West, AFC North matchup we're talking about. We're going to see one every week. Yeah, you get it. I said four and a half. I went too high. It's only two and a half, though,

on Fandle. Hmm. I don't think the Chargers are good. That's my hot take not so hot take. Tough time stopping the run in general. Maybe it wasn't that bad today, but tough time and mixing is as hot as anyone can be, I think. But why is it only two and a half? Getting into December, if you can't stop the run at all, I'm nervous.

If you can't run the ball at all, I'm also nervous. The Chargers can run the ball. They just can't stop. This is a good example of what we talked about. I think it was last week where you're not getting three automatic points

for being home, right? Because the Bengals are better than the Chargers. They have a better record. It should be three. Plus it's West Coast team in seemingly cold Cincy. Right.

West Coast. But we laid out the case for this. They say that home field's one and a half points now. Yeah, I guess it is. I mean, I don't know how it was cut in half. Barely watchables. They got four. Barely got to four.

First one is Bucs at Atlanta. You could make a case this should be a watchable because these games are always kind of entertaining for whatever reason. Everyone's going to tease the Bucs. There was some Matt Ryan, I got to say, some fist pumping from Matt Ryan

in the last minute of their very close. I wasn't even looking. They should have been winning against Jacksonville. I didn't want to get caught up with it. I'm like you, Atlanta, Denver. I want to stay far away from betting either side of whoever they're on.

But, yeah, don't. I mean, this is the team. They were up three Tampa in the fourth quarter against Atlanta in Tampa and they ended up winning by like 24

or something right does this mean you don't want me to go through the rest of Atlanta's schedule you could do it five and six plug my ears

you really don't want to hear this not really Bucks at Carolina that could be a win. At San Francisco, they could be 7-7.

Home Detroit. Mark that one down, 8-7. At Buffalo, probably a loss. New Orleans. There's a path for them to go 9-8. They'd have to upset San Francisco or Tampa. They may have to upset San Francisco or Tampa. They may have to only go 8-9 to get that 7 spot.

If they go 3-3, they could be in decent shape. For the listeners, the reason Sal and I are talking about this is because both of us stupidly bet Atlanta to make the playoffs. All the time. Every single year. We do it every year. Got sucked in. Kyle Pitts Pitts Arthur Smith

oh my god Mike Davis Mike Davis a huge Mike Davis year coming nope barely watchables well you know

so what'd you say for this one oh I said Bucks by 7 alright I get this one I said 7.5 it's 10 oh

and by the way this was the first this week we just finished that's too high was the first one in 3 years where a spread didn't exceed 7 points Oh And by the way This was the first This week we just finished That's too high Was the first one In three years Where a spread Didn't exceed seven points

We got a bunch this week though To play with That's too high It's a little high Because Yeah Especially if White's Not going to play

Who knows with him But the Bucks secondary It's really porous Like Wentz was going at them hard And then finally Ran out of gas. Tight end over the middle was open every single time.

It doesn't matter. Cause I'm not betting it, but you're right. Let's be honest. Both of us are going to bet this. Nope. Cardinals bears is in Chicago. I assume we're getting Kyler Murray.

I think so. If we don't get Kyler Murray this week, something's really wrong. I think I saw something that he's back and could have played today or something. I think this has to be cards by at least seven, so I'm going to say seven. Yeah, it's smart. I said five and a half. It is exactly seven in one of your teaser games.

Good for you. You're on the board. Can't see teasing Kyler coming off an injury in cold Chicago. And who am I getting on Chicago's defense? I don't know. Who's taking snaps for Chicago? Yeah, it's a stay away too. There's plenty of good ones out there.

Like Raiders-Washington. That's our third barely watchable. In Vegas, the Raiders coming off their improbable upset in a game that will be subject of a documentary 20 years from now when we find out that gamblers change the outcome. Yeah. I hate when we don't even give Mike McCarthy the opportunity to blow the game. That's how bad it is.

Oh, my God. Mike. Does he just... Is it a freeze-framed look that he has on the sidelines when they cut to him? Is it like in Speed when they kept looping the shot of Keanu Reeves because they were trying to escape the bus? Is it the same footage or is it a new camera shot

each time of McCarthy with that look on his face? It's the same look. I saw someone said something funny like, the Cowboys reached out to Oklahoma to gauge interest It's a new camera shot each time of McCarthy with that look on his face. It's the same look. It's the same look. I saw someone said something funny like the Cowboys reached out to Oklahoma to gauge interest in taking Mike McCarthy from them because now it's like Kingsbury's going to Oklahoma. It's unbelievable what's going on. Is he really going to Oklahoma? They're after him for sure. Why would somebody want to leave the NFL to coach in college?

And then you're going to the SEC. Because Oklahoma is going to be in the SEC. You're not going to be able to recruit to compete there if you don't know what you're doing in the first place. What is college football going to be like three years from now? Yeah. It's going to be like the Wild West. Two conferences.

Stay in the NFL. The NFL is... Sure. We were pouring dirt on it four, five, six years ago. It's the most watched Thanksgiving game it's ever had. Yeah were pouring dirt on it four, five, six years ago. It's had the most watched Thanksgiving game it's ever had. Yeah. Seems to be gaining strength.

Yeah, your team is nine and two, Cliff. You got a sick-ass pad. Quarterback, yeah. Watch the draft from. I think you're... It doesn't get much better than this. Raiders, Washington. I have Raiders by three.

Why is this so low? I said five and a half. It's two and a half. Because the Raiders, Washington, I have Raiders by three. Why is this so low? I said five and a half. It's two and a half. Because the Raiders are freaking, they stink half the time. Better record, East Coast coming West on a short week. I know. Didn't even make it three. It's two and a half.

You get that one. Last one is barely watchable is 49ers Seahawks. It's in Seattle. Seattle season is over. Have they won a home game? They have one home win, right? It's really weird. I could see them not making the playoffs, but...

Yeah, they're one and four away. Becoming one of the worst teams in the league was not on my bingo card. Right. I have the 49ers favored by one and a half over the Seahawks. All right, I get this. I said three and it's two and a half. We'll see what they look like tomorrow.

Two and a half. There you go. Poop Fecta. Ty's the all-time Poop Fecta rector we've ever had. Five games. Wow. First one. We'll go through these fast.

Vikings at Detroit. Automatic QB, Kirk Cousins. Scouting his next team. Here's a good Kirk Cousins team. One year at Kirk, if you're Detroit, you go from Jared Goff to Kirk Cousins.

He'll do that. One year, $28 million. Yeah, but for what? Kirk's just ripping off $28 million contracts. For what? The Lions fans are like, cool. We'll go 5-12 instead of 16-11. They're so excited to see somebody throw for 300 yards again.

They don't care who the QB is. Vikings, I have them favored by 7 in Detroit. You got it exactly. I said 5. Listen, let's just bet the Vikings on a teaser or a money line parlay. And that way, when the Lions get their first win, we can be like, oh, we bet against that. I mean, we're slump busters for sure. We could do this.

We could do it. That's one of them. I'm going to interrupt this podcast to say a prayer. God, if you're listening, please give me the strength not to put the Vikings in a tease next week. I look to you, my savior, for the power to avoid Kirk Cousins minus one in Detroit. I know it's bad for me. I don't want to do it. Please give me the strength, God.

It'd be great if he was listening to you. Amen. Very good. God's like, get this guy out of here. Way more issues. Haven't I done enough for this guy? No, this was the week to keep him off the teaser. Now, next week, we're good. God damn it. I'm going to end up teasing

them. Yeah, we'll do it. It's fine. It's fine. So, Cook, biggest play in the Vikings game today. Cook is running, gets tackled, and like the whole left side of his body explodes. He drops the ball, fumble. You know, I never saw what they said.

Is it a torn pack? What did they end up saying it is? It was something horrible, but it made me think like, you know, they're trying to make the game safer and all that stuff. If you're really trying to make it safer, if you turn the ball over because something horrible happened to you and you have to be carted

off the field, should the team keep the ball? It's interesting. Yeah. But you'd have to be carted off. Then people could say, no, no, Belichick would figure out a way to cart the guy off and the guy would come back. I like that. But Cook got carted off. He dropped the ball because it looked like something truly horrible happened. All the players came over and were dapping him and wishing him well. But yet he fumbled because he was dramatically hurt. I think you're right.

I mean, there's no way he takes himself out of the game to fake that just to keep the ball, right? Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's a good rule. I'm sure Roger Goodell would do the right thing and not listen to it. Dolphins home for the Giants. And you can't even say, like, Giants, gutty win. It's like, was it?

Like, Jalen Hurts just single-handedly demolished them. The Giants had one good drive the whole game. Their defense made a couple plays, I guess. This is a loser leaves town. I think the loser already left town and maybe forgot a phone charger or something and came back. But this has got to be.

I think it's a loser still in town match. Dolphins, I have by three. Yeah, you got that exactly. Why isn't it four? I said four. Because the Dolphins shouldn't be favored by more than three over really anybody. Next one in

the poop factor, Eagles-Jets. Five in a row? Yeah. I don't need to ask God for the strength not to put the Eagles in the tees because I'm not betting the Eagles anymore. But I think this will be in the teaser range too. I have Eagles by six and a half at the Jets. Yeah, you're going to get it. I said four and a half and it's seven.

You're rolling this week. Three, four, five, six, seven. I am not teasing that one. Seven to three. Well, we got to tease something. What are we doing? Oh, maybe we don't. Yeah, we can't wait.

Wait a minute. I've lost teases for four straight weeks. I don't think we have to. Okay. The Jets fans are, I don't know, rollercoaster ride with Zach Wilson today, but ultimately, I don't know.

He threw an interception off. He intended to throw it off his, I think, running back's back, and it got picked. It was pretty bad. It was pretty good. One of my favorite Instagram accounts, Boston Sports Throwback, on Thanksgiving or the day after they ran

the clip of the Mark Sanchez butt fumble. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot how fucking funny that was. That really was the funniest fumble of all time. I was just watching it over and over again, trying to figure out... He ran into the guy's butt and just fell over. It's so goddamn funny. I did a bit with Sanchez on Thursday Night Football, going over all the Jets' terrible plays and it was going to end on that. And he was going to come in and yell at me. He's like, you know what?

I don't even want to see it again. I was like, all right. So we got to figure something else out. Oh, no. Where I just allude to it. And as I'm about to show it, he throws a football and breaks the TV monitor. But he just didn't even want to see it again. I don't blame him.

Puss is bad enough running into the butt. Sure. Colts at Texans. All right. here we go. Here we go. You're this a three-teamer? We're back. We're back.

That didn't take long. Colts, Vikings, Bucks. Let's go. Oh, my God. We got to go to a meeting. We should just go. We should just do our next podcast. I'll dig up one of those 1-800 numbers.

I know this is. Oh man, this is going to be Colts like around nine. I'm going to say Colts by nine against the Texans. All right, I get this one, right? Yeah, I said eight and a half. It's eight. Oh man. We got that.

That's fine. Oh, so we could tease that right now. We could do Colts Vikings. What could go wrong having Carson Wentz and Kirk Cousins in the same piece? The problem is all the good teams are on the road here. Good teams. Colts Vikings, but yeah, it's not bad, Simmons.

I think it's our best bet right now. But anyway, well, there's a couple more. Rams Jaguars is home for the Rams. Stafford trade looking a little gamey. Yikes. It's like the four-day-old sushi in the fridge where you're like, do I throw this out

or can we get one more day out of this? He just looks old. He's missing a lot of easiest throws, right? Just that one seam over the first level. He should make that. That's what Goff... Sean McVay must be losing his mind right now. It seems like

he has four or five injuries, and part of me wonders if McVay, when they're doing the trade, and they probably had dinner, and he's like, how are you feeling? His staff is like, best I've felt in years. It's like when I think I am feeling good And Stafford's like, best I've felt in years. Right, right, right. It's like when I think I am feeling good and I go and play tennis for an hour and a half

and then I can't walk for three days. Right. Yeah. I'm sure Stafford felt awesome in like June. Yeah, he's got some bad shit. He's got that elbow injury in the back. In the back, as we know in any sport. He's got the old guy walk on.

It's really the rims. And then Odell, he made one play, which is good enough to end my fantasy season. And then got hit again. He was hobbling around. It took three hits

for him to be, you know. I have the Rams by 13 and a half against the Jets. Wow. Nice job by you. I said 11.

It is 13. Usually when I'm on the lines like this, that means I should bet. You're crushing it. Do it. Just let me know who you're going with. You're winning like 8-4 or something. Uh-oh. Another teaser. Oh, God. Sunday

night. Yep. Sunday night, Chiefs-Broncos. Dying to be teased. Broncos coming off a nice win. In KC. Chiefs a little momentum on defense. We're going to be reading about Andy Reid off a bye and how he's 73-2.

Right? Yeah. I have Chiefs by 7.5. That's exactly what I had. It's 9.5. Oh, they didn't want us to tease that. Nope. That's fair. Alright, we'll get around it I'll tease Carson Wentz and Kirk Cousins

it's fine oh man I you know that's like one of those things that's like where you hate yourself and that's the tease you do mhm yeah

and I think I hate myself because I really want to do it so maybe that's it maybe I maybe after all these years I've reached that point oh Monday night wow you're gonna watch this I've reached that point. Oh, Monday night.

Wow. You're going to watch this one? You should watch this one. Boom. Monday night at Buffalo. Mack Jones, the best rookie quarterback since Russell Hustle and Bustle Wilson in 2012. Wow.

Interesting. Taking on Josh Allen and the overrated Buffalo Bills. And I think the Bills are going to be favored because I don't think people totally trust this Pats team. Mack Jones is better than Herbert was last year? Oh, man. I don't know. Well, yeah, I judge my quarterbacks by wins. All right.

Ball protection. It's weird. Listen, if you want to judge your quarterbacks by TikTok and Twitter clips, Herbert's fantastic. Last year, he was very, very good. He really was. I agree. Mac Jones is

the two-seed right now. He's a rookie. Alright. I do love Herbert. I mean that as though Herbert blasphemy, but I think Mac Jones should get credit for every game. He's getting enough credit. He's going to win Offensive Rookie of the Year. He's going to get enough credit.

He actually might win Offensive Rookie of the Year now because Chase has cooled off the last three weeks. They don't have it up yet, but he's got to be minus 250. I mean, it's going to go to a quarterback anyway. I have the Bills favored by two points. You're going to go low here. Yeah, you did. I said three, and it is three.

But it's not enough for me to win. Nine to six, you win. I think that's a fair line because it's a Ricky QB in Buffalo on a Monday night. It's a high profile game. Good news for the Pats is he's played in some high profile games. I think they're better. Bill's 10 days off, right?

But maybe that Thursday was an anomaly. We haven't seen them play like that for sure in a long time since the Chiefs. I think you're looking good here. I hate to say it. I mean, why not that teaser? Why not take plus nine there? I think that's just if you like the Pats, just bet the money line and ride it.

Or take the plus three. All right. It does seem like a good matchup for the Pats because I think they can run on the Bills. The Bills running game, what would you say? Average running game? No. They benched Zach.

Well, Allen makes it at least average because he can move around. Yeah, I mean, I'm looking before Thursday. They had like, they'd got guys with 30 yards. They'd get nothing. They'd have nothing. Well, they had Zach Boss as the healthy scratch.

Right. Heading into the Thanksgiving game where they were like, this guy was supposed to, the guy was getting, people were spending, what, 23, 24 bucks in fantasy auctions on him. He didn't even play.

He was healthy. Yeah. Tough one. I think the Pats, it's a good one. They take care of business in that one. And unfortunately the Ravens are playing. Well, what's the other way? Can they, if they lose and I hate your last last two against the Jets in Miami, right?

So you're going to be fine. But if you fall a game and a half back, you could still get in there, can't you? Get in AFC East? Yeah. Because they have two games against Buffalo. That's what I mean. It's not a must win. It's exciting. I hope it's snowing.

Alright. Let's take a break. We'll do a little parent corner. Today's parent corner is brought to you by CarMax. Our friends at CarMax are on a mission to end buyers' remorse with their new Love Your Car guarantee. They understand a car is a major purchase and it takes time to feel secure about your decision.

So CarMax gives you a 24-hour test drive to get to know your car before you buy and after you buy. You're covered with a 30-day money back guarantee up to 1,500 miles. Learn more at CarMax.com. CarMax, car buying reimagined. All right, Sal, what do you got? All right. So Thanksgiving week, right? It was great. I mean, did you tape podcasts in advance? You you were able to get like four days. It was nice, right? I did the same. It's like terrific.

It's like easy breezy sitting with the kids. We're at the dinner table. Everyone goes around. You do that thing where you go around and say what you're thankful for or you just start eating. You do, right? So we do it. My mother usually goes for like 25 minutes and everyone's looking at their watch or phone. And then she finally is get done.

And then the kids go and my oldest archie didn't have much to say, whatever, the same old stuff. And then my little one had something prepared that he did in school and he read it and he reads something for his mother and his brothers. And for me, I'm thankful for my father because he gets me out of tough situations. And now everyone's like, what the, what is going on here? Is there a mafiosa deal between these two? So then he's asked to explain. He's like, you know, dad, you know what you did. I'm like, oh shit. Did I do something that I can't remember that's going to be embarrassing in front of

everybody here? And whatever he meant, he ends up coming up with the excuse that I helped him figure out that a quarter and a dime is 35 cents. That was a tough situation for him and Matt. So now it's his chance. I was like, okay, thank God. Nothing ridiculous. And his middle brother goes, he's a quirky kid. And I told you, he's like all over the, all over like minor league hockey teams and arena to lead, like whatever nobody else likes he's into because he can put a stamp on it, you know, and he's infatuated with Phoenix.

He wants to go live with my friends, Ken and Harry, 52 year old men. And I always pretend like I think it's an okay idea. And my wife just goes nuts. She's like, are you kidding me? He can't live with that. What are you doing? So when it gets to him, he talks about, he's like, thanks for my mother.

I'm thankful for my father and for my mother. I'm thankful my father and my brothers. And I'm thankful for me and Ken and Harry and what we're going to do. We're going to march into Sky Harbor airport in Phoenix. And we're going to talk to the executives to let them build an arena for the Phoenix coyotes. Like what the hell is he talking about? So apparently there's beef between the coyotes who want to build a new arena near the airport and the airport who says, no, this will fuck up like planes landing and shit. And he wants to go down there and really complain about it. And my friends, I have no idea. He's like popping up articles on Google and he'll send them to me. And I rarely ever read them

because I don't think they're ever going to come back and haunt me. Certainly not at Thanksgiving dinner. And they do. So there you go. That's what he's thankful for. So this is God's revenge on you is all the enjoyment you've gotten over the years from Ken and Harry. Yeah. Now your son is basically joining their band. That's it.

He's going to be the third member of Ken and Harry. It's like the Beatles documentary. You'll see it. You'll see it someday. He's like, you're going to go to see it someday he's like you gotta go to college no I'm gonna go to Arizona I got Ken and Harry there yeah my kids are weird

um I spent a day and a half with my daughter in San Diego for a soccer thing and uh yeah it's just different

she's you know you don't have it with the girls she's not the same I I everyone says they circle back when they hit like 21 Yeah, it's just different. She's, you know, you don't have it with the girls. She's not the same. Everyone says they circle back when they hit like 21, but it's just. Is it the whole family or is it just you two?

No, it's, you know, they just go into their own, it's their own world. There's a whole social thing. And you're just like the old guy who has money. Yeah. So I'm going to talk about my son. Okay. Just two small things with my son. One is that he decided today what he wants to name his son. When he has his first son, he came up with a name. Said he told me and Kyle about, he wants to name his first son, Jacoby Simmons,

because he thinks that would be an amazing, amazing name for an athlete. And then his full name was Jacoby Monroe Simmons. Kyle was a witness. Kyle, come on, come on here. I like it. It's a nice nod to Grantland too, Jacoby Simmons. Well, so Kyle can attest. I was like, you know, you know a Jacoby, Dave Jacoby.

You remember he used to come over with my daddy's friend to watch his football games. He's like, oh yeah, and I know a Jacoby. So Jacoby wasn't even responsible for him wanting to name his football games. He's like, oh yeah, and I know a Jacoby. So Jacoby wasn't even responsible for him wanting to name his son Jacoby, which I thought was kind of insulting to the real Jacoby, Dave Jacoby. But yeah, so he's going to name his son

Jacoby Monroe Simmons. Kyle, were you okay with that? Yeah, you know, I thought he was going to go with the edgier one with the K in the name, but he even spelled it the same way, Jacoby. That's crazy. And it's not Jacoby Myers? It's not the Patriot? No, it had nothing to do with Jacoby Myers. He just thought it was a cool name. So that's going to be my grandson, Jacoby Monroe Simmons, if that ever happens. Yeah, but you can't say shit. Didn't you pick a crazy confirmation

name for yourself or something? What'd you do? No. What was your name? I gave my son the BOS initials. That was my word of saying. No, weren't you like Isaiah something? Wasn't that your... I changed my name to Jabal when I was in first grade. Oh, all right. Yeah. I really like basketball. So the other thing is on Instagram, my son has been, for some reason, he thinks Kanye West is some sort of prophet. And every once in a while, his Instagram stories, he posts these Kanye West quotes that he sends off into the universe. The one today, it just came up a couple hours ago. If you have the opportunity to play this game of life, you need to appreciate every moment.

A lot of people don't appreciate the moment until it's passed. And then he wrote, ye. As Kyle could attest, because Kyle spent some time here, my son, I wouldn't call him a cerebral guy. Would you call him a cerebral guy, Kyle? No, that's exactly why I screenshotted this thing and I was going to... You have to find out.

So... No, that's exactly why I screenshotted this thing and I was going to... He should have saved it for Thanksgiving and when he was asked to tell what he's thankful for. It's just he could have done ye quotes? Yeah. Yeah, so I think Instagram is just... It allows these people to create these alternate personalities for themselves. My son's Instagram personality is this cerebral, cool, whatever. And he's really just, I don't want to spoil it for the Instagram followers, but he's a

dick. My son is a dick. Kyle, would you agree? Not cerebral, more like a dick. Like he'll come in, Kyle's lying on the couch watching the Pats. My son comes in, jumps on him and tries'll come in on the spot. Kyle's lying on the couch, watching the Pats. My son comes in, jumps on him and tries to punch him in the balls. That's his cerebral greeting for his,

for his cousin, Kyle. Well, the funny thing is that when he, we did our thankful thing, it was like a list of rappers we'd never heard of. Yeah. Was it really?

Yeah. It was, it was really something. Listen, the only saving grace is that one day, Jacoby Monroe will be a dick to him. Maybe Jacoby Monroe Simmons can live with Ken, Harry, and Jack in Arizona. Maybe he could be the fourth member.

All right. That's it for Parent Corner. Today's Parent Corner is brought to you by CarMax. Like many things in life, you want to know what you're getting yourself into before you commit. It's why people date before getting married and it's why CarMax has their Love Your Car Guarantee offering a 24-hour test drive so you really get to know your car before you buy.

And in case you have commitment issues, CarMax gives you a 30-day money-back guarantee up to 1,500 miles. Learn more at CarMax.com. CarMax, car buying reimagined. All right. What do you got to plug, Sal? What do we got?

We got Fox Bet Live Monday, Thursday, and Friday this week. Extra Points Podcast Network. Check it out. We'll pick the Monday winners, side total, first touchdown, me and the degenerate trifecta. And I'll have a pick

for the Thursday game. Saints and Cowboys. I've lost five in a row now. I don't know what I'm going to do. Five in a row since you did this segment about how well you were doing. Yeah, you're right. You warned me and I didn't listen. Also, we should mention John Carlin. We lost a friend, right? Oh, yeah. Let's do that really quick. Go. Yeah. I mean, we lost him from ALS, which is a motherfucker of a disease, which I don't want to say I wasn't familiar with,

but I never saw someone progress and degenerate like he did. And what was crazy is I had talked to him like a week ago and his, I don't know if this is a, a common case, but his speech was fine. I mean, he'd had it for five years, which was a long time. His speech was fine. Everything from the neck down was bad. Uh, but his mind was strong and he would book guests for Kimmel and book guests for the Extra Points Podcast Network up until Monday, he was doing it. And it kept him going. But aside from any of that, he was one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet.

And a sports media darling. Anybody who knew him, loved him, and the outpour of affection is phenomenal. So we're going to miss John Carlin. I got to work with him the first 18 months at Kimmel. And you have these people that you work with and you're like, oh, he's one of the nicest guys.

Well, maybe too many people get thrown in that group, but then there's the actual three or four who really are the nicest guys. And he was one of the nicest guys. He really was one of the nicest guys ever. Uncle Frank was too, honestly.

Like, yeah, if you're like a sensei and you're only allowed to give out like six black belts for nicest guys, like he'd be right. Like he'd for sure. But I felt that way about uncle Frank too. Like uncle Frank was,

you know, when a couple of times when he got bad, it was kind of shocking because I was like, Oh my God, uncle Frank spent, I'd never saw John Carlin get bad. You, I think you might've seen it maybe once or twice and what 15 years working for the show but he was just completely beloved he stuck up for everybody and uh and he was just an awesome guy and everybody loved him like literally everybody in sports and if he'd

book a guest for me or me and you or whatever he then come back and talk about like hey they had a great time and you know like it really like he'd always follow up for me or me and you or whatever, he then come back and talk about like, Hey, they had a great time. And you know, like it really, like he'd always follow up and just, uh, just a terrific guy. I mean, you can't really say a single bad thing about him and he'll be missed.

The terrible fucking disease. Well, we, we helped, we did that thing, right? When we raised money for, uh,

ALS, it was a couple, I guess three years ago now, two years ago, two years ago. Yeah. So anyway, well,

he was an awesome guy. Yeah. Um, anyway, all right. We got to end on a downer. Shit. I know. I know. Well, two years ago yeah two years ago yeah so anyway well he was an awesome guy yeah anyway I feel bad we gotta end on a downer shit I know I know

well he was worth it though he was a good man alright I'll see you next week good job by you good job by you buddy alright Kevin O'Connor is here

we're gonna dabble cause it's the holidays it's my gift to the listeners we're gonna dabble little hoops into the end of this Sunday pod usually it's the holidays. It's my gift to the listeners. We're going to dab a little hoops into the end of this Sunday pod. Usually it's just me and Sal talking about football. Before we

do that though, KFC, the Pats, it's all lining up. Sal and I just did the lines for Buffalo next week. This Pats, six game winning streak. Now going to Buffalo, trying to take control of the AFC. How you feeling? I'm feeling amazing, Bill.

I'm feeling amazing. Mac Jones today. I mean, think about rookie quarterbacks across the NFL right now. Mac had some misses. I was watching the game today thinking, man, this is an off game for Mac Jones. But you look at it at the end of the game. He was solid throughout. Didn't make many mistakes.

I'm a believer in this Patriots team, Bill. The defense is too good. Mack Jones is coming together. Feels like there's just a big opportunity here in the AFC. Chiefs are still, it's got to have to be the favorite. Chiefs are the ones I'm afraid of. Yes. But other than that, Patriots really have an opportunity here.

Oh, I love seeing the smile on your face, Casey. This is great. It feels good. The pats are back. It feels good. have an opportunity here. Oh, I love seeing the smile on your face, Casey. This is great. The pats are back. Alright, so I told you to come up with one NBA trade and I'm going to come up with one NBA trade and we're going to throw trades at each other. You know my trade.

I don't know your trade. I was watching Detroit and the Lakers tonight on one of the TVs as the football was going. Trying to figure out if that would be an interesting Simmons team. Darryl, who knows if it was even true, but Darryl allegedly had that list of 30 players he would trade Simmons for.

And I think people think Jeremy Grant might have been on that list. Phillies had him before. Obviously not full value for Simmons. Maybe some other stuff's thrown in there. What's weird is I thought Detroit was way under the cap and I was researching it on SpotTrack and they have $45 million of dead cap money that they're paying out to the likes of Blake Griffin and Corey Joseph and DeAndre Jordan. So they actually have to have the salaries somewhat matched, which they could do on December 15th.

So maybe it's something like Jeremy Grant, one of the contracts they have. They have a couple $5 million contracts they could throw in and maybe some sort of protected pick or pick swap with protections for Simmons, something like that. Where if you're Philly, if you watched Embiid the other night,

the Minnesota game was incredible. It was also the worst officiated game of the year, but Embiid was just out of control. He's fouling everybody out of Minnesota. He was just draining 20 footers, long shots. He was bullying guys. I don't want to waste an Embiid year if I'm Philly in a standoff with Simmons and Clutch, just because at some point I want to get something. I don't want to throw this year away. So if it has to be a Jeremy Grant type player, I'm starting to think about it now. I'm not panicking, but I'm starting to think about it. Does that, does that framework of a trade make any sense to you? Yeah. I mean, I, I argued

with this kind of concept with Verno a couple of ago like jeremy he he thinks jeremy grant not a good fit you know for philadelphia i tend to think like if you're gonna settle something like that makes some sense but i think you you you have to know what version of jeremy grant you're gonna get you're probably getting the denver version of jeremy grant you're not getting the guy who was averaging like 25 points per game at the start of last season grant is still a guy who's been inefficient off the dribble, low 30% in pull-up twos, high 20% on pull-up threes. He's just not the guy that we saw at the beginning of last season. He's a guy who can do that sometimes,

but you're getting him to be a lockdown defender with size, which could replace Ben Simmons, an important part of the team, and somebody who hit spot-up threes at a higher level. He's 38% on spot-up threes in the the last four years going back to his time in Denver so I like the concept there but when I think about Philadelphia here I I am firmly in the camp here that Daryl Morey still should play this out and wait I still don't think that they should settle in this situation you're seven and three when Joel Embiid is healthy. The team has looked fantastic when Embiid is healthy. Tyrese Maxey is coming along.

He has been dynamic. Coming along is an understatement, KFC. He's way better. I mean, he's better versus Halliburton. He's way ahead of Halliburton now. I don't know what happened to Halliburton this year, but I'm stunned by the Maxey anyway. Halliburton started off good right away,

and he just hasn't gotten any better. If anything, he's gone slightly worse. But with Maxie, it's the type of thing where even the last three, four games, he hasn't shot the ball as well as he did like the 10 games prior to that when he was shooting the lights out from three, getting anywhere he wanted on the court. He's still getting to the basket.

He's looking like one of those guys who even if his shot isn't falling, he can still draw fouls, can still get inside the paint can still make kick out passes or dump off passes to guys cutting to the rim so i feel like for philadelphia as long as it beats healthy i'm willing to wait this out with ben simmons because i don't think uh you know you mentioned adding some salary like a sadiq bay or a kelly olenekeren't those the two rumored names weeks or months back? Well, you know how I feel about Kelly Olenek. I like him as

a rotation guy. If they could get him in there. Yeah, it'd be solid. I think part of the problem here, I hear what you're saying. Part of the problem is, I think Simmons, his value has been really hurt by how he's handled the last four months. I think teams have his value has been really hurt by how he's handled the last four months.

I think teams have real concerns about a bunch of shit now. And what are you trading for? You're not trading from the guy that even the guy that we saw heading into last year's playoffs versus where we are now. What am I getting? Am I getting a guy who wants to play? Am I getting a guy who's having issues? Am I getting a guy who has competitiveness issues?

Am I getting a guy who is actually going to try to improve? Or is it the guy who's been stuck in quicksand the last three years and has been basically the same guy for the last three years offensively? Are you going to get LSU Ben Simmons where suddenly he goes from a defensive player of the year worthy to not trying

at all on defense? Being unhappy or being unhappy that he's there. So then it becomes like, how many teams would it be happy going to? Like another one. And I don't think Siakam, I don't know what's happened to Siakam the last year and a half,

but on paper, Siakam for Simmons is kind of an interesting trade because it would allow Philly to play. They could use Siakam as like the undersized four with Harris. On paper, it makes sense unless you've watched Toronto. And I just don't like the way Siakam as like the undersized four with Harris and on paper makes sense unless you've watched Toronto and I just don't like the way Siakam is playing. I actually would rather have Jeremy

Grant than Siakam if I was Simmons, but these are the kind of names I think you're looking at if you're Philly. Why trade? Why trade then? Why trade would be because... Why sell low for a guy who's like 25 years old, all NBA player,

was a defensive player of the year candidate, and with Maxie's development, with Seth Curry playing at the level that he is right now, you can plug Ben Simmons into that, and suddenly, you have some of those guards who can do some of the stuff on your team,

shooting off the dribble, getting to the basket, where you can utilize Ben Simmons as a screener. But you're making it seem like Simmons is ever gonna... He's never playing there again, though. He might. He might.

Oh, I don't think there's any chance. I really don't. I think it's 0%. I still believe there's a chance. Have you gotten inside info that he might play there? I believe there's a chance. I believe there's a chance. God, I don't see it.

I don't think the fans are going to want him back. I think he burned too many bridges. You know how many Sixers fans I've texted? Oh, my God. Hey, would you be open to Ben Simmons coming back? And nearly all of them say, hell no.

Hell no, they don't want him back. And how would he handle it? I don't know if, you know, as a player, like from a confidence standpoint, he'd be able to handle going back there if the reception wasn't bad.

I think he can melt down. Well, start him on a West Coast road trip, you know, like those long five, six game West Coast road trips. Start him on that well start them on a west coast road trip you know like those long five six game west coast road trips start them on that have them have a couple of you know 28 and five games and maybe he goes back to philadelphia and people are feeling a little bit differently i mean i know it's unrealistic i know like but this happens in relationships sometimes people have a near breakup. Sometimes it gets really ugly.

Sometimes you break up for a long time. But then sometimes you get back together. I think this was a breakup. No, this was a I moved my stuff out of the house breakup. It probably was, Bill. I mean, you're probably right about that. But all I'm saying is that if you're Daryl Morey in this situation here, are you really going to settle for Jeremy grant and sadiq bay and i don't like a future protected first for a 25 year old all nba guy who's one of the best defensive players in all

of basketball i i just i just don't think it's worth i don't think that necessarily swings your championship odds more than the slim chance of simmons coming back i know i might look idiotic in the end if his value does drop, if it plummets, but I think the reward completely outweighs the risk. I think it's already plummeted. If you made a list of the top 40 players in the league, I don't think you could get him

for anyone in the top 30. I think you have to move down a level and you're looking at the Jeremy Grant, Siakam, those type of guys. That's the list. Like if you're looking at the Celtics, you're not looking at Brown and Tatum,

you're looking at Marcus Smart Plus. That's the neighborhood you're shopping in. It's just the reality of the situation. If I'm Philly, the case for me for keeping him isn't that you're hoping he plays with you again. It's the Portland situation because ironically, Maxie has emerged as more of an asset. Right? So the thing you didn't know heading into the season that now you know is that Maxie has real trade value now.

And you could make a case, Maxie plus Simmons plus picks could get you Dame Lillard. If Portland right now, they're 10 and 10. Pretty uninspiring to watch. I don't think anybody feels like they're anywhere close to being a contender. Do you? No. It's a weird team where they have Nurkic and Covington.

Do you extend those guys? What do you do with them? They don't have any picks. They have one of the craziest front office situations of any team, which is saying something. And if that goes south in any real way, maybe Simmons-Maxie becomes a possibility. You know, we know mutual Sixers fans

who would be like, we'd take CJ right now. But if I'm Portland, I wouldn't trade CJ for Ben Simmons. What am I getting? Why not, if you're Portland? I mean, you CJ for Ben Simmons. What am I getting? Why not? If you're Portland. I mean, you can slide Norman Powell up, give him some more touches. You got Anthony Simons, who's made some progress.

You can utilize Ben Simmons in his ideal role as like a Draymond-style guy with Damian Miller. If you're Portland, I'd have a lot of interest in something like that. You could play small with Simmons and Covington. We saw how effective that could be for Houston with Covington and Tucker. You'd have elements of that building around Damian Lillard. You have a handful of wings.

You could play different styles. The Nurkic-Simmons front court would have some issues there. But to me, I look around the league. I mean, when you texted me earlier about trades like i have a hard time finding ben simmons deals that make sense which speaks to you know the point about where's his value at what are you going to get if you're philadelphia and portland's the one team i look at and i'm like damn that's perfect if they could pair simmons with damian lord that to me is a type of upside move that doesn't necessarily put them on the level of a golden state a phoenix a utah or even a clippers if they got Kawhi back for that matter, never mind

the Lakers if they really figure things out. But it at least makes you different than you've been the last six, seven years when it's just been slight variations of what that team is. Ben Simmons can change what that team can do in the half court as an offense. It can change what that team can do in the half court as an offense it can change what they are as a defense as an entire unit when you have somebody like him so if you're portland to me i think doing more the same with mccollum and lillard is just not going to get you anywhere it's going to get you in the play-in bubble maybe you get the sixth seed but you're an early exit in the playoffs and you get unless you get really we agree on that just think... I just don't know what I'm getting with Ben Simmons. Like, I'm giving up a real asset,

and I'm getting a guy back. What if he just decides day one? I don't like Portland. This wasn't on my list. Yeah, but you can say that about any team, like San Antonio. I mean, I think that one of the ideas I had was like DeJounte Murray and Thad Young.

Does San Antonio really do that right now? With DeJounte Murray and Thad Young. Does San Antonio really do that right now? With DeJounte Murray developing the way he is right now? He's like a 19, 9-9 guy. One of the best defensive guards in basketball. I don't know. Flip side, you'd think like Sacramento. Well, they wouldn't give up Fox for Simmons. Now you watch Fox, who's the way he's played the last six weeks,

the way that Kings team looks in general. And then you have Maxie. Like, why would Philly want Fox for Simmons? The last thing they're going to want is a point guard who might not even be better than the point guard they have. They're going to want somebody who gives them something that they don't have. And right now what they don't have is a guy like Simmons. So Siakam on paper would have made sense, except he's not the same guy he was a year and a half, two years ago, I don't think. So it's tough. I think it's a guy like Simmons in terms of defensive versatility and all that. But I think it's also just a guy who can generate offense for you.

And I'm not even sure Simmons returning does that for you in the half court, unless you're utilizing him in a screening role. I know I've been obsessed with that for years. But I think with Maxie and Curry utilizing Simmons as a screener, you can add a little bit of that. But what they really need is somebody who can get into the teeth of defense besides maxi like a dejante murray somebody like that i just don't like the side of the pelican side of it i don't like the zion simmons fit yeah that's clunky that'd be fun that'd be fun to watch i'd love to watch it but it'd be a clunky basketball fit if you're building that team out around Zion and you've got to convince him

to sign that extension coming up. He'll sign it. Have you seen him? I was watching Godfather 2 and Michael Corleone when they were like, we've got to kill Hyman Roth and Michael Corleone's like... You had time to watch Godfather 2? You're a busy guy, Bill. I was in a hotel room in San Diego. Watching a whole bunch of movies. No, I watched the Godfathers every year.

And Corleone says about Hyman Roth, like history has taught us anything is that you can kill anybody. And it's same thing with, with NBA trades. If history has taught us anything, you can trade anybody except John Wall, it seems like. You could make it $45 million. Yeah, you can't trade that.

But with the Simmons thing, I would want to get somebody back that would help me win the title this year. That's why I'm doing the trade. Otherwise, I'm not trading. Because I still have a guy who's one of the seven most important guys in the league and go toe-to-toe with anybody in a series. And I have doing the trade. Otherwise, I'm not trading because I still have a guy who's one of the seven most important guys in the league and go toe-to-toe with anybody in a series.

And I have some other pieces that one other piece, who knows with the East. Kyrie for Simmons is fine. It'll never happen, but it's a fun trade to talk about. But I was thinking that would be... That's a good 2K trade. I'd love to watch that. Well, because you think

Ben would just be in what Blake was like last before uh he hit the twilight of his career this year but the way they were using him when he was rejuvenated blake last year simmons is like the way better version of that never happened all right what was your what's your trade um so this is kind of a half-baked idea but i'm kind of sick and tired of the sabonis turner fit in indiana so i'm thinking about how how are we going to flip one of these guys yeah and i mean whether it's turner whether sabonis i'm open to either but i'm thinking about like sabonis siakam type of swap here toronto could use some type of traditional big in their rotation and and i'd be very intrigued with

sabonis surrounded by all of their defensive versatility. Sabonis on a team with guys like OG Ananobi, Scottie Barnes, Precious Achua. That gets me pretty excited about something like that if you're the Raptors. And for Indiana, you put Miles Turner at the five. You're riding him as your defensive anchor, shooting threes for you.

Maybe Siakam fixes himself there. Maybe he gets back to his prior levels on the defensive end of the floor. You get some more wing versatility. I think this is the type of deal that could help both teams. And there's not a lot of deals out there this season. I mean, at least right now, when I look around the league that I expect to happen, this could this seems like it's brewing to be a quiet deadline. I mean, it's so early right now.

It's not even December. Things can change, but I just don't foresee a ton of big star action, which is why I'm thinking about the Sabonis-Siakam level players. So you're thinking like Sabonis adjusted holiday for Siakam?

Yeah, something like that. Sabonis and a salary filler, like a Jeremy Lamb type would have to go in. I think Sabonis is more of an asset than Siakam, and I think you can make a case. If I was a GM,

I'd be trying to trade for Sabonis. And I keep thinking about him with the Warriors. I don't think the Warriors will mess with anything they have and they're in a perfect situation. But if they decided to cash in the wisemanship for a big guy who fits in from a hoops IQ, kind of add something standpoint,

Sabonis or Turner, both of those guys in different ways would be really fun for them. I also think for the Celtics, he'd be somebody who solved a be really fun for them. I also think for the Celtics, he'd be somebody who solved a lot of problems for them. I might value him a lot higher than other people, but to me, it's like, I'd have to get

Toronto's pick in that trade if I'm trading Sabonis. I need Siakam and I need a top three protected first. Then I'll have the conversation. I'm intrigued. I hadn't thought about the warriors before this pod bill but that because like i think the people talk about ben simmons for the warriors that's never really tough that never happened and it's really tough to make that

happen because you have to include wiggins and i know wiggins isn't you know no way but he's really important to that team yeah he is he's one of the better wing defenders and all about they're not doing anything they're 18 19 and 2 whatever of basketball. They're not doing anything. They're 18, 19, and 2. They're not messing with this team. The Warriors maybe don't, but doesn't this feel like a year, though, with no... I think the Warriors are the clear favorite,

in my opinion. They are the clear favorite. But for a lot of these other teams around the league, including Golden State, because it is relatively wide open, this is the type of year though where if you're going to cash in some chips you can increase your odds significantly to get into that championship race or to really elevate your odds over the top of everybody else so if you are golden state you say they won't change it up but if you're getting us a bonus

who you could integrate in easily high iq player somebody who can pass the ball, somebody who knows how to play the game. He fits that Warrior style as a big. Maybe you do cash in Wiseman and Kaminga and then one other salary to make a deal like that work. I'm not trading Kaminga. Not trading Kaminga? He's untouchable.

Yeah. I can't believe I'm saying that. Totally untouchable. Like untouchable. No, not for the Sabonis level guy. I'm not bringing him out. He's staying behind in the glass case. From the little stuff we've seen already from him,

with the defensive ceiling, I am not trading that dude. Because we knew about the other stuff, but we did not. I wasn't properly prepared for the defensive possibilities with him. Whereas Wiseman, if they could turn Wiseman into Miles Turner or Sabonis, and there's other stuff in there, and they're just upgrading that and they're being like, alright.

As much as we love Wiseman, this could actually lock down the title if we got one of those two guys. I still think that makes the most sense. Kaminga has had some outrageous defensive possessions. They can't trade him. You can't. You can't trade him. And by the way,

I thought they should have taken Wagner. Who do you think they should have taken? Yeah, Wagner. I like Wagner for them. I still think he would have been a nice pick for them, but the Kaminga thing, holy shit, the two-way possibilities with him. Kaminga's upside is ludicrous, as long as he figures out the scoring side. I mean, right now they're using him as a big man.

It's really interesting how they're using Kaminga. He's not doing much on the perimeter. He's basically like a small big for them, a 6'8 big man, just doing everything on the interior, finishing inside, not doing a lot on the perimeter, handling the ball. He's kind of a playoff wrinkle for them, where sometimes you'll see these rookies where you're like, wow, they're throwing this guy in here. This is kind of a pivotal moment. I can't believe they're playing him, but I think we will see him

in playoff series because of his defense. Maybe. Maybe. I mean, they have so many guys I can turn to. You can turn to Toscano Anderson if you want to. No, they can't. This speaks to the amount of options that they have that you might not even need to turn to your lottery pick because you have so many players on that roster that are good.

They're so deep. I'm into that. I'm into that for Golden State. I understand keeping Kaminga, but if you're Indiana, are you really doing it for just Wiseman and Moody and Looney or something like that? I don't know. They couldn't give away Turner a year ago. If you

could turn Turner to Wiseman, you're probably doing that, right? I think Turner, I would love to see him on it. I'm with you. I watch that team. I get frustrated to have these two guys that we've seen this for long enough. Both of them are assets. They shouldn't be in the same team. I would trade one of them. All right. This is fun. So you're the mismatch. When are you doing the mismatch with Verna? Tuesday morning? Tuesday and Friday morning.

All right. And you got the void as well. And we can read you on the ringer.com. Good to see you, KOC. Go Pats. Go Pats. Thanks to Sal. Thanks to KOC. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton I will see you on this feed on Tuesday night and we have new rewatchables coming on Wednesday night as well

it's not going to be running tomorrow night it's going to be running on Wednesday night see you then We saw that I don't have. I feel it.