The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Celtics Flop, Best Oscar Story Lines, Planning the Olympics, and the Fall of College Sports With Matthew Belloni and Casey Wasserman

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons shares some brief thoughts on the Celtics' loss to the Cavaliers (2:08) before he is joined by Matthew Belloni to answer 10 burning questions about the Oscars (8:46). Then Bill talks with Casey Wasserman about planning for the 2028 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles (42:17), managing talent at Wasserman, the future of college sports (1:02:38), media, the next generation of stadiums, and more (1:34:54). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Matthew Belloni and Casey Wasserman Producer: Kyle Crichton  The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, the Olympics, the Oscars, the fall of college football, lots of weird topics next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then

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You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey, and it's on prime all season long. Watch prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best.

They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on prime. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where we put up a new rewatch of Monday Night. We did Roadhouse, which might be the greatest action movie of all time. It's at least the funniest action movie of all time. Me,

Chris Ryan, Kyle Brandt. I think we went two or three minutes longer than the actual movie. We had a blast. We had so much fun, we put the entire video up on my YouTube channel as well, youtube.com slash Bill Simmons, where you can find entire rewatchable episodes, clips, videos, walk-in talks. I did a walk-in talk today about the Patriots.

I was so upset. I read these couple terrible articles about the Patriots today. It just feels like we're turning into the early 80s Patriots, where we have an owner who spends less money than just about everyone else in the league, an unproven coaching staff. We don't have a quarterback. It looks like they might trade down, which is just the classic early 80s, late 80s Patriots move of just trading backwards and picking up multiple picks that you blow. It's really depressing. And then we also had the Red Sox who have been cursed basically

from the moment they said the words, let's trade Mookie Betts. Well, they tried to bargain basement, the starting rotation. They got Lucas Giolito who led the league in home runs allowed last year, always looking for guys like that. And he made it about two weeks into spring training and now his elbows hurt and it looks like he's out for the year. And the Red Sox have been just a comedy of errors. It's getting to the point where I'm starting to wonder, should Bob Kraft and John Henry just trade teams?

Just do a trade. I grew up in the late 70s. We had John Y. Brown and we had Irv Levin and they flipped teams. And Irv Levin got the Braves, which became the Clippers, and John Y. Brown got the Celtics. They just literally flipped teams like they were trading cars or something. And I'm wondering maybe Kraft and Henry should think about doing that again. I am in a vulnerable place with Boston sports right now. I just watched the Cleveland Cavaliers come back from 22 down with nine minutes left and beat the Celtics. And I'm trying to decide

whether it means anything or not, because on the one hand, awful loss, TNT, the winning streaks over, all of the highs from Sunday just beating the living hell out of the Golden State Warriors. That fades away immediately. Then you look at it the other way. This is the NBA in 2024. You can have a 22-point lead with nine minutes left. And it's a three-point lead with four minutes left because all of the guys on every team can just make threes and waves of them. And the Celtics fell asleep. I fell asleep watching it. I was doing emails. I'm kind of vaguely listening to Ian Eagle, get it more and more excited. And I look up and it was 97, 88. I'm like, wait, what's going on? Had to rewind. But I think

every Celtic fan, there's a fear inside with this team. And it's baked in from what happened in the playoffs in 2020. Actually, really, 2018. I know it's a totally different team, but the inability to score down the stretch in 2018, in game seven especially. 2020 in the bubble. Then you think like 22 against the Heat, then the Warriors.

Just how hard it was just to get baskets when you really needed them in 23 last year. Then they make the trades. They have this incredible offensive team, right? I think heading into tonight's game, they have the fourth best net rating and the fourth best point differential of any NBA team ever.

They're making threes like crazy. And when they're up 10, when they're up 15, they look like one of the best teams of all time. But deep down, you're thinking, well, what's going to happen if we're on the road and we blow a 10-point lead and now that's a one-point game with three minutes left? Do I completely trust this team?

Do I completely trust the coach? And the answer was, you know what? I'm really starting to trust this team. I'm not going to have those dark thoughts anymore. And then you watch tonight and you watch everybody standing around an offense and they're jacking up shots. They're falling asleep on defense. Then they kind of rallied the last couple of minutes. They had a couple of nice plays.

Joe Maz, I was proud of him. He called a play for a high screen with White and KP that led to a backdoor pass to Holiday for a layup. And then it's like, here we go. Tatum's going to walk it up. All right. Here comes a bad shot. And it's just they lapse back

into their old habits. They fall asleep on defense, give up a go-ahead dunk. And then the last play of the game, I think there's 18 seconds left. Joe Mazz has two timeouts left. I've been turning the corner on Joe Mazz. I was feeling really good about him.

Even to the point where he's plus 400 for coach of the year on Fando. I'm thinking, that's not a bad bet. This team might go 66-16. So I'm like, Joe's going to call a timeout. I know he is. Let's do it. Call the timeout. Set up a really good play, Joe. Just do it. Nope. Tatum walks it up. Tatum dribbles in the garland seven times, does a couple spin moves. Jared Allen comes over,

double team. Doesn't matter. Tatum ends up with a 45 degree angle fall away and gets bailed out with a call on Garland where they show the replay and Garland doesn't touch him. And now you know the game's over and it is. And they lose by one. And coming out of that game, here's my question. Did you learn from this one Celtics? Did you learn not to fall asleep up 22? Did you learn your shit actually does stink sometimes? And then you came out of that Warriors game and thought your shit actually does stink sometimes and then you came out of that Warriors game and thought your shit didn't

stink but you know what it's still it's still gonna stink it's still shit sometimes if you're gonna

play like shit and are you gonna learn about the last minute stuff about calling a timeout

to set up an actual good play that the Tatum just walking it up and then dribbling

into five guys maybe that shouldn't be the last play of the game when we need a basket um that the Tatum just walking it up and then dribbling into five guys, maybe that shouldn't be the last play of the game when we need a basket. This is a work in progress. Jason Tatum, just turned 26, still young, still figuring out, still putting it together. I think I believe in this team, but you watch games like tonight and you're like,

hmm, hmm. Hmm. What did that mean? I think they're the best regular season team, but I still think Denver. Here's why this matters, ultimately. Denver executes at the end of these games better than anybody. And that's going to be the case in the playoffs. It's going to be Murray and Jokic surrounded by shooters with Gordon doing little sneaky back cuts toward the rim,

and they're going to get good shots over and over again. And in a seven game series, you got to beat them four times. Can you execute better than them down the stretch? The answer is probably no. This is why I think Denver's going to win the title again. I don't think anyone is going to out-execute them. And the Celtics have a chance here down the stretch to prove that beyond the advanced metrics and beyond the point differential and beyond how good they look when they're up 20,

what's going to happen in games like tonight when they have to execute? One of the answers we got was tonight. It wasn't great. So there you go. That's where my head is at with the Celtics and Boston sports right now. I know you didn't ask. My apologies.

Coming up, we're going to talk to Matt Bellany about the Oscars because there are so many Oscars subplots. I can't resist. I'm actually genuinely excited for the Oscars this year. So there's that. And then my friend Casey Wasserman, who is in charge of the 2028 Summer Olympics. We had the Paris Olympics coming this summer. So I wanted to talk about what is going on in Paris? What does LA look like four years from now? What is it like to plan an Olympics as it gets closer and closer? And then he does a lot

of management agent stuff. Where are we with college sports? Where are we with the NIL? Are college sports going to exist in 10 years? What's going to happen with arenas, ticketing, representation? It's basically a future of sports with Casey and it's really good. So I think this is a good pod.

Let's bring in our friends from Pro Jam. All right, we're taping this on Tuesday afternoon. Our guy, Matt Bellany is here. You can read him at Puck. You can listen to his podcast, The Town. And you can listen to our Oscars coverage on The Big Picture with Sean Fennessey. We're not stepping on Sean's toes. I want to talk about the Oscars

as a show that meant everything back in the day that used to be watched by as many people as the Super Bowl, and then felt like it not just hit a hiccup, it was like a full-fledged baby burp belch. And I think the rating dipped at one point to like 10 million. Now it feels like people, they care. Do they care because of the movies that are involved? Because people can be in crowds again. COVID's behind us. They're just trying to make the show fun again. They have Jimmy as the host. It's kind of like the Oscars are back. How does this play out on Sunday?

What happens? I think a couple things are going on. First of all, award show ratings have been ticking up this year and last year as a function of coming out of COVID. And it's like celebrities came out of their groundhog hole and are poking their heads around finally, and people are noticing. Secondly, the one consistent thing over the 95 years of the Oscars

has been that when the movies are seen by more people, more people tune in to the show. And the problem that they've had over the past decade or so has been that the big movies in contention have not been popular movies. They've been niche little award style movies. And this year we've got Oppenheimer, which is almost certainly going to win best picture, a movie that most people have seen and Barbie as well. Yeah. So you don't think nomadland maybe not the same kind of impact maybe not i mean that was the year that the oscars probably would love to forget that was

the train station oscars remember that yeah oh my god i think i blocked that out of my mind oh i watched every minute of it it was like the perfect storm of awful venue covid restrictions and then they hired Steven Soderbergh to produce the thing, and he basically went gonzo on them and decided that Best Picture would not be the last award of the night. They were instead

going to instead make it Best Actor because they thought Chadwick Boseman would win. It would be a nice moment to have his widow stand up there, and then he didn't win! Anthony Hopkins won. It was just a nice moment to have his widow stand up there. And then he didn't win. Anthony Hopkins won. It was just an amazing confluence of events. Yeah. If we weren't in a COVID haze, that would go down. People remember the Uma, Oprah, Letterman, and some of these other Oscar things that actually, if you go back, weren't that bad.

That train station Oscars is the absolute nadir of the Oscars. If you think about it, the Oscars have had quite a five to seven year run there with the best picture mix up and announcing the wrong winner. And you thought that would be the worst thing to ever happen on stage. And then literally four years later, someone gets punched on stage.

It's the curse of Moonlight. And what was the other movie since then since then all hell has broken loose yes all right i have 10 burning questions for you about the oh wow okay you did a great podcast this week by the way with what's the michael shulman michael shulman of the new yorker who wrote a very good oscar book oscar wars which i would recommend uh but you guys talked about all the campaigning all the stuff that i love like bradley cooper just kind of losing his mind and lying lying on his back in water that will be the image of this year's campaign bradley cooper naked in his underwear in a freezing river floating on the cover of new York Times Magazine. For some reason, he thought that was a good idea.

And then you talked about how Leo campaigned so hard for Lily Gladstone that he forgot to campaign for himself and didn't get nominated. Big mistake. Either forgot or self-sabotaged. I mean, you expect everybody wants an Oscar and will campaign to get it.

Leo has an Oscar, so maybe he just said, I'm too cool for this. It's a flex. I'm just going to get her a nomination and that's my win. But I suspect he thought he would float in there and get a nom just like De Niro did and it didn't happen for him. And you talked about the Robert Downey

just playing the politician game to the foe, shaking hands. You had a couple of good anecdotes in the newsletter about it but this feels like a Downey time that leads me I have 10 burning Oscar questions for you we're going to rip through these I'll start with Downey he's a heavy

heavy heavy like you can barely even gamble on it favorite he's a beloved Hollywood guy he's a beloved Hollywood story I was watching back to school on a channel whatever just scouting him for the rewatchables and Beloved Hollywood Story. I was watching Back to School on a channel, whatever, just scouting him for the rewatchables. And it's just, he's like the number four lead

in Back to School in 1986. He was on SNL 40 years ago. He was in less than zero and he, you know, hit rock bottom, came back. He went to jail. Yeah, he went to, he's just all these things. He probably shouldn't be alive. And now it'll all culminate with him winning an Oscar that I'm not positive he was the best supporting actor. But I think people like Robert Downey and it's like, it's time. Let's get him one. are and sort of your stature in the business and B, how well you work the community during

the campaign season. And we saw it last year with Jamie Lee Curtis, who absolutely was everywhere and was just happy to be there. Hooray for Hollywood. I'm a Nepo baby. Call me what you want. She luxuriated in the Oscar campaign and it ended up being great for her and she won. Downey is a version of

that, except he's even more charming and he gets up on stage and you just want to love the guy. Yeah, so people, they're checking and all the ballots are in. They're just going through and they're like, oh man, Robert Downey, I love that guy. They're doing the Chris Collinsworth, Robert

Downey, oh man, what a career.. But Gosling and Barbie has a real case. I think that was one of the most decorated performances of the year. He's like 10 to 1 on this weird gambling set I'm looking at. De Niro is 16 to 1 for Flower Moon. Downey is a runaway favorite. And by the way, every year, there's a shocker. Especially in one of the supporting characters, but I don't think it's this. No, this will not be it. I think it might be in screenplay. I think American Fiction could pull that out for

adapted screenplay. It's favored now. No. Over Oppenheimer? At this site I'm looking at right now. Oh, interesting. Oh, then that means it's surged in in the last few days because oppenheimer is was the favorite and then barbie perhaps could get in there they made it adapted when a lot of people thought it should have been original but uh but i think uh

core jefferson for american fiction could win there i just don't think i mean gosling got out charmed i hate to say it he's you know handsome man, good looking and charming. And he just got out charmed by Downey. And he tried to. He did the media appearances. He did the handshaking. awards they give out in the show. They usually do that. They usually do supporting. They'll kick it out in the first 20 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. And they're doing a thing this year where they are having previous winners present to the acting categories.

Not just one person, but they're going to bring out like three to five previous winners to kind of go over the nominees and kind of talk about them. They did this like 15 years ago and it was really effective. And for some reason they haven't done it since. five previous winners to kind of go over the nominees and kind of talk about them they did this like 15 years ago and it was really effective and for some reason they haven't done it since i think it's tough to get a lot of people to show up but they're going to do it this year and imagine people talking about downey and him getting up there and i'm sure he has a personal relationship with a lot of these actors that are going to be there what if he came out as the guy from Tropic Thunder and is like I still think this is funny he got nominated for that he got nominated they should actually they should have Stiller they

should have been Stiller to be one of the people oh that would be good yeah second burning question how many Oppenheimer awards are we thinking like this runs the slate in a crazy way does this become like we remember it like titanic and some of those other ones that just won like crazy amounts what happens so that's an interesting question because that used to happen a lot where there was one movie that everyone coalesced around and it just kind of ran the table that happens less often these days. The Academy tends to spread the love around and they say, okay, well, we didn't love Jojo Rabbit, but let's give it screenplay. And we didn't love the actors in All Quiet on the Western Front last year, but let's give it some technical awards.

This year, I think Oppenheimer could buck the trend and win seven eight maybe even nine awards because it's got the actor if let's say killian murphy beats paul giamatti director movie actor there's picture and director are locked yeah picture and director are locked could be actor and supporting actor and that would be four and then you start getting into, you know, is Nolan going to win adapted screenplay? There's a chance he could do that. It's probably going to win cinematography. It'll probably win editing. There's a chance,

probably not costume design. I bet that goes to Barbie or poor things. Makeup and hairstyling will probably go to Maestro for the nose. Just giving Bradley Cooper that ridiculous nose. Lie down again. Lie down. Here's a pool of water for you to lie down in. and hairstyling will probably go to maestro for the nose um just giving bradley cooper that ridiculous nose and then lie down again lie down here's a pool of water for you to lie down in uh original score almost certainly oppenheimer will win the music and that is fantastic all right so you're up to like nine already i know i'm getting up there i'm getting there production design might go to barbie um sound will almost certainly go to oppenheimer

possibly zone of interest it has that weird sound effect in it. And it's not really up for a lot. We're looking at like eight or nine, perhaps. Be a fun one to bet on. I mean, well, this leads to my next burning question. Because the Oscars never goes chalk. We're talking about the six majors. And we're like,

oh, that's going to happen. That's going to happen. There's always a surprise. There's always one like, whoa, where'd that come from? And I can't figure out where it gets wacky this year.

And I was thinking if Oppenheimer swept and just was like running the table on everything, is there an Emily Blunt out of nowhere, best supporting actress where divine joy, Randolph is one, everything Emily Blunt out of nowhere best supporting actress where Divine Joy Randolph has won everything? And out of nowhere, it's like, oh my God, Emily Blunt won. That was the only one I was thinking that would be the mind blower, but it seems like she's got it locked. Yeah, I don't think so. I think it'll be in one of those less sexy categories like adapted screenplay or production design where there are movies that have that as a highlighted feature like a barbie or poor things and people think it's going to win

but if the voters just start checking the boxes for oppenheimer down the line it's possible to see that it's possible it is it is that the biggest one i this may be in your 10 burning questions but the the actress race is my let's do that now i had that written down so this is the most fascinating word of all the awards lily gladstone who's like with depending on what site you go to she's like minus 150 minus 160 emma stone is plus 120 and then sandra holler is 18 to 1 and i i actually think that was pretty good value um because I thought she was amazing in that movie. There is a Sandra Huller contingent out there. Who is Sandra Huller?

Yeah. Huller. Huller, I believe. Huller. You know I'm bad with the German names. So if Emma Stone wins, that's two Best Actress awards for her, which puts her on a whole other,

like you're just talking last 50 years. Hilary Swank, Jodie Foster, Frances McDormand as three, Sally Field, Meryl Streep. It just elevates her a whole other level. Plus, she produced Poor Things, which is not going to win Best Picture, but it was in play at least for a split second.

But then Lily Gladstone, I don't know. The way people talk about Emma Stone in Poor Things, it seems like it's one of the most memorable performances of the last five, six years, right? Like how brave it was and people are like, holy shit. Yeah, they use that term brave, which is often coded for. Yeah, she got naked. A lot.

She got naked a lot. And it's not just naked. It's like very aggressive nakedness. And it's a sort of fearless performance. This is a truly fascinating one because it has a lot of the things about the Oscars butting up against each other.

With Lily Gladstone, you have the representation issue. This would be the first Native American actress to win in the category. She plays a very sort of strong-willed, sort of quiet and very forceful character in the movie. However, she is arguably not the lead actress in that film.

It's arguably Leo as the lead, and she is the supporting to that. She's not in the movie as much as some of the other contenders are. Well, the movie is seven hours long, so her usage rate is still high. the movie as much as some of the other contenders are. Well, the movie is seven hours long, so that's true. She's still her. Her usage rate is still high.

Maybe minutes, minutes in the movie. She's more than some of the others, but not in percentage wise. But they chose to put her an actress. And I think it was a smart one because it was saying something about the movie. And then you've got that coming up against Emma Stone, which, as you said, is this fearless like gonzo performance by a big star. You know, the Academy loves to anoint these

stars and say, yes, you are you are going to get that kind of accolade from us. And I think that Emma Stone like has that juice in the industry where people want to support her. And they like her. Yeah, they like her. I think she's going to win. I actually. Yeah. They like her. I think she's going to win.

I actually think that's a good bet. I was surprised that Gladstone was the favorite. But yeah, man, it's hard to think of Emma Stone from Superbad and Easy A when she was a younger actress. I was like, oh, I like this person. There's some potential. There should be a two-time Oscar winner. I guess Hilary Swank is the most unrealistic

two-time Oscar winner ever because she dated Ian Ziering in season eight of 90210. In Karate Kid 3. Don't forget about Karate Kid 3. And was in Kid 3. I called Kid 3. I don't even call Karate Kid 3.

But yeah, Emma Stone, two in a row would be nuts. All right, here's the next one. Will Barbie get shut out? No, absolutely not. Is there a Barbie situation where they're just losing, let's say, 12 of the 14 awards or whatever the nominations? The batting percentage is too low and people get pissed off. That, I think, will be true

because most people coming into the Oscars this year think it's a battle between Oppenheimer and Barbie in most of these categories, when in fact it's a battle between Oppenheimer and either Poor Things or Killers of the Flower Moon or American Fiction. Barbie is not the all category contender that many thought it would be. We saw that with the nominations where Margot Robbie was shut out, Greta Gerber was shut out for director. So there is weaknesses. There have been weaknesses

with Barbie for a long time. It's not going to get shut out because it will almost certainly win Best Song. The Billie Eilish song has been sweeping everything else. It got the Grammy in the same category.

And it has really distinguished itself as um as as the front runner here i could also see it getting um getting production design because that has been the standout yeah that makes sense yeah production design and costume design i think are the the two where Barbie is the presumptive favorite. Now, Poor Things is a contender in both those categories and it could upstage it, but I don't think so. Yeah. The dialogue around Barbie was interesting because to me it was, and it was a very well done, clever movie, but to me it was like more in the superhero back to the future type of very popular, really well done movie.

And those movies usually don't win Oscars. Yeah, but those movies are- We have a 50 year history of that. Those movies typically are not directed by indie auteurs. And that was the difference here. If this movie had been directed by Sean Levy or even a more commercial director, we would not be talking about in the awards context. But Greta Gerwig co-wrote and directed this movie. It's got a message to it. It has the backing of grossing $1.5 billion. So it does line up there. I just don't think it's going to be...

It hasn't been taken as seriously as some of the others. And we'll see that with the wins. Back to the future, I had a message. I guess. Don't date your parents. Don't date your parents. And you know what's pretty good? The 80s, the 50s were kind of crazy. All right. Next, ask your parents. Don't date your parents. And you know what's pretty good? The 80s.

The 50s were kind of crazy. All right. Next asker question. By the way, are you on board for a Back to the Future reboot? There's been talk. I'm okay with it. I actually, because for two reasons. One, the old one's 40 years old now.

But two, you could go back to the 80s or you could go to the 90s. I'm surprised nobody streamed it as a streaming TV series. Almost like Quantum Leap back to the future. I think it's a Spielberg thing. He has to sign off on whatever they do with that franchise. And I think he thinks it's sort of sacred. I mean, Zemeckis and Bob Gale. I'm not against that thought, by the way.

They're doing a Broadway thing right now. I saw it on Broadway. It's fun. Here's the question. Why doesn't somebody just rip it off and just do a movie where somebody goes back 35 years? I mean, it's not like Back to the Future invented a time machine. You mean Peggy Sue got married?

Well, yeah, but a better version of that. I think it would be fun to end up in Seattle in 1992. What's going on here? Yeah. Next burning question. Will Leo go? I don't know why I Because he was everywhere during the campaign season, promoting her and, you know, standing up for her. And for him to not be there when she wins, potentially, would be, it would be a shitty moment. I just, you know, it's like Tom Cruise last year. He didn't show up for the Oscars,

even though he was a nominated producer. He went back to South Africa to work on Mission didn't show up for the Oscars, even though he was a nominated producer. He went back to South Africa to work on Mission Impossible and bailed on the Oscars. And then his sound team won and got up there on stage. And he's been out there talking about how, you know, the artisans for Top Gun

are the real stars. They make this movie happen. He wasn't there to stand up for them when they won. And that's a shitty thing. Hmm. Well, from a star standpoint, Leo, potentially,

Downey, Emma Stone, Bradley Cooper, who are other... De Niro, who are other A-listers and A-plus-listers that we even think are going to be there? Well, I know...

Do you count Margot Robbie as an A-lister now? Oh, totally. Yeah, she is, right? Oh, absolutely. She's an A-lister. There should be an announcement. It should be like when you get a million subs on YouTube and they send you something.

When you're an A-lister, they should just send you an A. I think Margot Robbie is definitely an A-lister because she produces as well as stars. Yeah, I think she is. Matt Damon won't be there. That's a big exclusive on The Town tomorrow. I'm giving you a preview.

Matt Damon is shooting and will not be there. Oh. Which would suck. He doesn't care about any of this stuff. No, but it would be nice

if Oppenheimer wins Best Picture if the entire huge cast could get up there on stage. And he's in the movie. Next burning question. What does this do for Cillian Murphy? could get up there on stage and he's in the movie. Um, next burning question. What does this do for Killian Murphy?

You know, that's an interesting one because obviously this guy does not like the kind of accoutrements of stardom does not like the Hollywood system hates doing press. I don't, I think he could get much bigger roles than he does. And he tends to work with the same kind of filmmakers. He loves Nolan and he does British television. And he doesn't do the kind of movies that he cited early on in his career as having done and regretted like Red Eye. Remember that movie? He was the villain in Red Eye. First first of all you i was gonna joke about this

but then you stepped on it because i was gonna be like hey kelly murphy don't be so precious you're in fucking red eye settle down no but he's disavowed that movie he said that he was bad red eyes good i i i completely disagree that's a good cable movie settle down kill him i agree uh so so i don't think we're gonna all of a sudden see him as the next James Bond or something like that. I just don't see him going that route. But obviously, you win Best Actor, you have more choices, and your price goes up. Yeah, it's a weird one because

could it go the Adrian Brody route where in three years it's like, whoa, he's in that movie? What the hell happened? He won the Oscar. But I don't think he would do that movie. I think he will just be pickier about what he does and maybe get more for that. Don't be too picky, Killian.

Ride the wave, man. Do a couple of good ones. Well, Nolan has not said what he's going to do next. That's the joke after Taylor Swift announced her new album on the Grammys is that Nolan's going to get up there during his best director speech and drop his new movie and say, oh, by the way, I'm directing the next James Bond movie or I'm directing my new script about time travel XYZ. And he could say, yeah, Cillian Murphy would star in it. So we'll see what Nolan

says. That's a quickie burning question. So you remember like the Titanic Oscars and it was like James Cameron Oscars. Sometimes Schindler's List 93, the Spielberg Oscars, And it was like the James Cameron Oscars. Sometimes, you know, Schindler's List, 93. It was the Spielberg Oscars. He did it. It feels like this will be the Nolan Oscars. You know, this was the most commercial director we've had for the 21st century, basically. And now he's figured out, I mean, commercial good director

where the stuff he's doing, people want to see it. It also makes money. And then it crests with Oppenheimer. I think that's how we're going to remember the Oscars is Oppenheimer and Nolan. There's a chance if he also wins screenplay that he will give three speeches during this show. Wow, I didn't think of that.

Which would be a lot. A lot to hear from him. By the way, he's favored. Isn't he favored? Oh no, he's American Fiction past him. So it's him versus American Fiction for screenplay. But that's an open one. That could that if Oppenheimer sweeps, it could sweep up screenplay as well. The big question I have for Nolan in his speech is, is he going to acknowledge the Barbenheimer

phenomenon and the role that Barbie played in his movie doing as well as it? Yeah, because I don't know how he feel. played in his movie doing as well as it did. Because I don't know how he feels. I mean, he's talked about in interviews and how it was great for cinema and great for movie theaters that people got excited to see these two very different movies on the same day. But when it comes to his Oscar speech,

the thing that people are going to replay over and over, is he going to say like, yeah, you know, we probably wouldn't have grossed a billion dollars if it weren't for the toy movie right well if you said tiktok tiktok videos toy movie uh if you had to say let's say he wins for the film and he wins for director is he the number one 21st century director? Because now we're 24 years, right?

It's him or Fincher in the finals. And Fincher didn't have anything like Oppenheimer. No. I mean, I said it on The Town. I think this might be Apex Mountain for him. I mean, I know he's a relatively young guy. To pull off that Oppenheimer, to have that many people see it

and go see it again and the experience of it and how long it stayed in theaters and how he pulled out some really great performances. And I thought the movie was a little bit too long. This is his 1993

when Spielberg went from commercial beloved bankable director to Schindler's List comes out the same year as Jurassic Park and all of a sudden he is the Oscar winning legendary Steven Spielberg auteur and king of Hollywood

and that's what's going to that's what Nolan will be if this wins best picture really memorable movie and 15 minutes the two screenplay stuff, so we could have Cord Jefferson, who's been on this podcast, friend of the pod,

potentially winning an Oscar for the first movie he's ever written, which that's going to be emotional. But then Payne, who has the holdovers for best original screenplay, and he's already run two screenplay wins. But what happened here? Well, he didn't write it. David Hemmingson,

another writer, wrote this script and Alexander Payne liked it and decided to direct it. So he is actually, you know, he's there's only two movies in this category, original screenplay, that were not also directed by the writer it's the holdovers on may december and i think that that hurts in this category i think if there's a if there's a favorite it's probably anatomy of a fall that is which was oh it is the favorite okay which was co-directed by justine triette who sorry which was co-written by justine triette and then directed by her um if there's a shock i think it would be that past lives wins original screenplay i you keep hearing this love for celine's song and past lives it it did really well at the spirit awards which is for independent

movies not the oscars not a lot of overlap. But this is really the only place to honor past lives. And it was one of those movies that just kind of kept popping up throughout award season. They didn't do a huge campaign for it. And if it pulls off a win in an original screenplay, that would be a huge deal for Celine Song. This is also her first movie. I was shocked that Greta Lee didn't get nominated. That was to me my most shocking snub, especially Annette Bening and Nia, Carrie Mulgan and Maestro. I just thought she should have had one of the spots. And it's weird because I thought she was pretty bad in the morning show, which we talked about in the Prestige TV pod. And it was weird that she was like best actress caliber

in this movie and then in the morning show. It's like, what are you doing? Don't even get me started on the morning show. I'd like to get you started some other time. Some other time. I'm happy to guest on whatever pod you've relegated to the morning show. Yeah, you can go to nuts. Alright, two more quick

questions and we're done. 91 year old John Williams is nominated. Does he go? Yes, I think he does. He did not go to the nominees' lunch, which they do this lunch where everyone gets up on stage and they do a big class photo. He did not go to that. And I talked to someone there who said that at his age, he did not want to get sick or something that would cause him to miss the actual Oscars. I think he does go.

Unless he's sick and we don't know about it, he knows he's not going to win. I mean, it's a courtesy nomination. Indiana Jones was not the most beloved in the series, but it's John Williams and it's John Williams doing Indiana Jones, so he's going to get nominated. I do think he goes. The move is whoever's presenting that award.

You say John Williams last. And then you say to the crowd, by the way, John Williams is here. He's 91 years old, standing out. Then you announce it. Cause he's not going to win.

It's incredible that he's 91 and still doing movies though. All right. Oscar ratings. These were the last three. 10.4, 16.6, 18.7. In 2014, 43.7. So we've fallen by, I don't know, 60%. Are we in the 20s this year? How do we even measure it? Does the fact like what's happened in sports where the ratings are now up in all the sports because they're kind of the out of home ratings as part of it. Where do we land with the Oscars? I think your prediction. I think for the reasons that we talked about, that when there are popular movies in real contention, that the audience goes up.

Give me a number. What is it? If I had to guess right now, I'd say 22, 23. I'll be optimistic and say 23. I'm going to say 25.5. Oh. Yeah. I'm going big. I'm going up. Price is right. I'm just like, fuck it, Bob Barker. I'm going up. Okay. Yeah. I think it's going to be a big rating because of Oppenheimer and Barbie. Yeah. And the interesting thing is that I had someone pull the numbers on years when there was a sweep, meaning like a movie that was anointed, like a Titanic or the third Lord of the Rings. And you would think that the ratings would come

down because people, there's no suspense. People kind of know what's going to win, but that was not the case. Yeah. They like dominance. People tuned in for the anointment. They liked the fact that this big, huge movie was winning all the awards and then winning best picture. It's not like you and me who think of it as a sport. They just want to see their favorite movie, get some awards. Uh, and I think that is something that could happen this year because the fervor around Oppenheimer was so big and it was global that people will be like, oh, the Oscars are tonight. I want to tune in and see Oppenheimer get some awards. So we recommend Emma Stone, who's like plus 120 best actress.

And then you like the possible, the screenplay of Past Lives, which is like 901 right now. I know that's the possible screenplay of Past Lives, which is like 9-1 right now. I know. That's my money pick. Original screenplay. That's a good one. I like that. I'm doing that one. That's my money pick, and if I win, I am on record now. I want part of your winnings. Okay. I will cut you in.

I'm going to cut you a vig. Because you and Kimmel dined out on CODA two years ago. And I was also in very early. I want a little credit for that. I could not find the version of that this year. Because from the get-go, it just felt like the favorites were gigantic across the board. I mean, that's the Oppenheimer effect. Oppenheimer literally blew up the Oscars. The real huge flex is that Oppenheimer started the season as the frontrunner and never wavered.

There was never a real challenge. There was some talk, oh, Zone of Interest has fans and Barbie has fans. No, there was never a real challenger to Oppenheimer. And I don't think I've seen that kind of all season dominance since like Slumdog Millionaire in the mid 2000s, where that movie came out at the festivals and was like, OK, best picture, move on.

And it just doesn't happen that way. The front runner is always in trouble at some point. But one of the head of Neon, one of the distributors came on the town a couple weeks ago, and he said the last place I want to be in awards season is front runner because you are attacked and then there's always the backlash. And there was never a backlash this year.

Kind of like the 2018 Red Sox, just dominating from April all the way through October. Weird. I didn't think of that. Because you're wearing a Dodger hat. Yeah, I didn't think of that. You thought of that. I did not think of that. Matt Bellany, you can hear him on the town. You can read him on Puck with his great newsletter where our friend John Aran just joined Puck to do some sports stuff too.

So congrats to him. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on. You too. Bet the NBA with a no sweat, same game parlay from Fandle every Thursday with TNT Thursdays. It doesn't matter if you need new to Fandle or you already have an account. You'll get bonus bets back

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This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention,

and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. All right, I'm here with Casey Wasserman taping this on Leap Day. I'm not sure when it's running, but wanted to catch up with you on a whole bunch of things. First of all, how's the ringer going? I know you own the ringer. It's one of the great investments of all time. Drama free.

I'm really thrilled. That money you got me when you sold the company was awesome. Yeah, you're still waiting for it. I'm actually excited to do this on Leap Day because I know your rule for Leap Day, which is no rules. No rules. No rules. I know that's your dream come true. Yeah, I always wanted the purge on Leap Day.

We have a bunch, there's a bunch of reasons you're here. But the biggest is you're running the Olympics in 2028. We have the Olympics coming this summer in France, the Summer Olympics. So what have we learned? You've been, this has been how many years now for you? Five, six? Well, we started bidding in 2014.

We got the games in 2017. So we're on year, whatever, 11 now. Of your 14-year journey, yeah. So we're on year, whatever, 11 now. Of your 14-year volunteer journey. So what have we learned? What's the biggest positive since you embarked on this? And what is the thing you're the most nervous about? I would say the biggest positive, which we believed, but continues to get validated,

is the power of this country's passion for and willing to spend and support big sporting events and big global events. So we have more revenue today contracted than Paris will generate in total. And we're four years from the game. So the revenue has done what we thought when you start a project like this and you have to generate $7 billion from zero. Right. And you have to, you can only spend what you generate. You don't know. And it hasn't been a long time since the summer games were here and it's a different world.

But having said that, it has been really great and really validating. And people are generally excited and engaged about what it means for the Olympics to come back to this country, especially in a city like LA. So you're starting and you're like, here's our bid. I'm going to be able to pay for this. Yeah, we are. And you actually paid for it. We are the only country on earth that provides no public support for its Olympic movement. So the USOPC, the NGBs, athlete training, support for our Olympians comes in two places, American universities, which maybe is a subject we'll get to when we talk about something else, and private support, donors, sponsorships, philanthropy. There's no public funding. And so by the same token, our Olympic games are privately funded. And so there's good and bad to that. The good is we get to do things in a rational business

driven, economically minded way. The challenge is, which is the part that keeps me up at night, is this, the Olympics in LA will be the largest peacetime gathering in the history of the world. It is a level of complexity and scale that is unimaginable. Well, why is it different than 84? Like what's changed? Well, we'll have the biggest sport program ever. We have more tickets to sell than ever, more countries in the Olympics. The scale of the Olympics keeps growing and we'll have the most ambitious sport program ever. And in 84, the Coliseum, now we have the Coliseum and SoFi. 84 was gymnastics was a poly pavilion. We have now crypto and Intuit and Honda Center and the Forum, right? We have all these things that didn't exist. So the scale

of our venues and the infrastructure here is stunningly different than 84 and the size of the Olympic games is growing. And so all of those things make it big. It is the operational equivalent of seven Super Bowls a day for 30 days. And so the scary part is we will spend 85% of our budget in the last 18 months. So our budget, we are breakeven of 6.8 billion is what we believe revenue and expenses is sort of how we manage the business. We will spend 85% of that $6.8 billion in the last 18 months, which means you better know what you're about to spend because you don't have time to course correct if you go over budget, because once you start, you kind of have to finish because July 14th, 2028, that torch is showing up at SoFi, whether we like it or not.

So the things you've figured out so far, Olympic Village is at UCLA. Where was it last time? Olympic Village was split between UCLA and USC because neither had enough dorms. UCLA has built a tremendous amount of dorms. Now 90% of students live on campus. And given the scale and complexity of security to protect the village, you can't split the athletes anymore. It's too complicated. Got it. So Westwood gets shut down. The UCLA kids are gone for how long? Like six weeks? It's funny. People always ask, why is your opening ceremonies July 14th? It's the earliest opening ceremonies in the history of Olympics. It's because very simply, we have to have time to get into the dorms when the students get out. Yeah. And we have to time to get out of the USC facilities before USC gets in because they start

in August, UCLA ends in June. And so we have a window of time for the Olympics and Paralympics. That's about 40 days that we can operate. And so there won't be summer school to be fair. But unlike 84, there won't be competitions at Poly Pavilion. We need the whole campus just for athletes and athlete training for both security and transportation. So you have that. You have things you had the last time. Rose Bowl. We have the Rose Bowl.

You had the Forum. The Dodger Stadium, the Forum, the Coliseum. But now you have Staples Center. You have Intuit, the Ballmer, Clippers Building. Correct. You have SoFi,

which is 80,000. So what's in SoFi? SoFi right now is opening ceremonies. We're thinking about moving an event there. But that will get solved over the next

60 days because as things happen around the city, things where we're going to do things may get used for other purposes from a temporary perspective. So we have to create other solutions. We think those solutions will be better.

But certainly opening ceremonies, the parade of nations, what you assume is the opening ceremonies will be at SoFi. And if we can pull off an event there, it's going to be pretty spectacular. Who got the basketball? Well, Steve already went out and said it. So basketball is very likely to end up at Intuit. Oh, he spoiled it? He kind of spoiled it. When they announced the All-Star game

and then he called me that night, he goes, did I really, did I screw that up for you? And I go, eh, I mean, it's okay. I mean, you can pay me back later. So SoFi for opening ceremonies and maybe one more thing. Correct. Basketball it into it.

Like where's like the surfing and all that stuff going to be? So surfing is either going to be in Huntington Beach, which is where they do the US Open of Surfing. The only two places with waves on Southern California are really there and then down in Trestles. Yeah. Trestles is the best wave. It's got a lot of operational complexities because there's not a lot of, they're not

parking. You have to cross over the train tracks. It's not. Yeah. It's the best wave. It's got a lot of operational complexities because there's not a lot of, there's not parking, you have to cross over the train tracks. It's not, it's the best wave. Between the back of house and the wave is pretty complicated.

So we're working through that. Golf will be a Riviera. Oh, look at that. What was the hardest sport to figure out where to put it and how to do it? Hardest sport

is sports you wouldn't think about. Things like modern pentathlon, which is an event that has five esoteric events that they demand operate on the same day. So it's a swimming pool and a shooting range and a track and a thing. So you've got this weird collection of venues. Equestrian. So OJ's old house?

Yeah. Equestrian because you have to have all the disciplines in the same location. Yeah. Equestrian because you have to have all the disciplines in the same location. Yeah. So eventing, which operates on a golf course, and dressage and jumping, which operate in an arena, but you have to have a back of house for all the stables and all that stuff. There's not a lot of places that have all of those facilities in one place. So there's some of those sports that are more complicated than you think about because- What was that one, that short cycling? That was a fun one in London.

It is. When I went to London. Thankfully- You need like a little special dome, right? What was that one, that short cycling? That was a fun one in London. It is. When I went to London. Thankfully. You need like a little special dome, right? At whatever it's called now, Dignity Health, where the Galaxy played, there's actually a velodrome that has 3,000 seats in it that is as good a velodrome as there is in the world. And where's soccer going to be?

Soccer, we will do likely, definitely semifinals and finals at the Rose Bowl. Yeah. I'm not sure we'll do all the preliminaries there because I'm not sure we can take advantage of the capacity. So we can do it at other MLS venues in and around the state. And tennis is where? Tennis also at Dignity Health because there's that 10,000 seat tennis stadium. It's actually the only tennis stadium in Southern California other than Indian Wells, but Indian Wells in July is a little hot. So we don't know where track is yet?

Track is the Coliseum. Okay. So old school, old school. How about this fun fact for the Olympics? The most expensive thing we will build is a temporary track in the Coliseum because after the earthquake in 94, they took the track out. Yeah. So, so our track, the track is so big for an Olympic footprint because it's not just the running, it's all the field events and all the, you know, the long jumps and the triple jumps and steeplechases and the hammer throws and all those things. So the scale of the track is huge.

It will go 14 rows up into the Coliseum. So row one would be actually row 15 if you're at a USC football game. So how do you figure out like the marathon route? Is it the same as it was the last time or does it have to change

because of the city? It's actually one of the things we're starting to think about now. There's two versions of a marathon, point to point, but then you have to shut the city down. Yeah. And that's a little complicated. We'll stay away from your neighborhood. Don't worry.

Thank you. Or you do loops. So in London, they were the first one to do essentially six, you know, five, four and a half mile loops. Yeah. And so you get a ton of fans and create an environment that's really energized as opposed to a point to point where you don't feel that energy. Better for viewing, not as exciting of a course. So we're sort of moderating between what's a better result for LA. And what do you get?

Like, what does LA get to keep when you're done? Because I remember in London, that was a big thing about they built this thing and then afterwards you get to keep it. So what does LA get? The good part is we're not building anything. So on some level, what they keep is a couple of things. One, we're investing in youth sports in the city. So all youth sports through Rexon Park in the city of LA is subsidized by us so that it's only $5 for any kid who wants to play Rexham Park. So that is the biggest investment in youth sports in the history of this country

in one city. And we desperately needed it in the LA area. Correct. And until we started funding this program, there wasn't an adaptive sport program offered

in the city of LA. So we will host the Paralympics too. And there wasn't a single adaptive sport program offered at Rexham Park when by statistically 10% of the population

has a physical impairment. Jeez. So that's a huge benefit. And then just like 84, if we can create a surplus, that surplus, because we're a 501c3, stays to benefit the city forever. And so that's the real legacy is the economic legacy post the games, the economic activity during the games. And when you have an event of this size and this scale, it's a great line in the sand to get the city motivated and focused on being at its best when the world comes here. Is there anything you can learn from the world cup when some of the world cup

games are here in 26? Yes and no. Um, certainly, you know, just for some perspective, a world cup pot of games in LA is, let's say it's six teams and four games, 180 athletes and four games. So you're learning nothing. be very similar to what we do on a singular basis. So we can learn from that. But the World Cup is a big event, but it's in 12 cities. We will sell more tickets in one city than all 12 cities combined.

And we will have 10X the number of athletes in one city that the entire World Cup has. So it's a totally different scale. One of our 35 events is a World Cup. I remind people like when the US Open of Golf was in LA, we have a U S open a men's and women's golf as one of our 35 events. Right. So, all right. Transportation. How do we fix that? Cause when I was in London, everyone could take the subway or whatever to anything. No, nobody used their cars to go anywhere. And there was a ton of walking LA is way more spread out. So there will obviously, most Olympics operate on buses and public transportation. So we will do that. We'll borrow 5,000 buses. One of the biggest

complicating sort of organizational things we have to do is borrow 5,000 buses to provide buses for media, fans, athletes, officials, volunteers, those buses go in dedicated lanes. So that's a very traffic relieving thing because you take, instead of going to Dodger Stadium with 30,000 cars, you have 5,000 buses or 2,000 buses going to Dodger Stadium for a baseball game. It's a different stress on the system. Plus, one of the things we want to do, given the infrastructure investment here, is allow anybody with an Olympic ticket to use the Metro for free. Because we want to show people that once this thing is built, you can go from Westwood to downtown LA in 20 minutes. So why don't we use it as an opportunity to teach people how great the system is and get them used to using it and used to using public transportation. How much did the Olympics have to do with all the stuff that they built on

the train stuff? Very little. It was happening concurrently. It was happening. They actually got the funding before from a ballot measure. And what we did was our bid was not contingent on being done. If it's done, we benefit from it, but it wasn't required for us to deliver the games. Okay. The city's in worse shape, I would say, with the homeless crisis and all these other things since we got the bid? When did we get it? 2017? I mean, the COVID era did not help with that. But

what kind of shape do you think the city is going to be in in 2028? Because right now it's not great. Yeah. And it's, look, I get asked a lot, what are you gonna do about homelessness? And my answer is really twofold. One, our responsibility is to deliver the Olympic games responsibly. And our job is not to fix every problem in the city of LA. But as someone like you who lives here and cares about the city, if we haven't done anything by 2020, we've all failed. Especially when you think about what drives the economy of LA, it's tourism. 50 million people come to LA every year. If people don't feel safe and comfortable coming to LA as tourists, whether it's to come to Hollywood Boulevard or Disneyland or Universal Studios

or Santa Monica Beach or to museums or wherever they come here, and that goes down to 40 million, LA is probably bankrupt as a city. So we have to get this city better. And again, going back to what I said, the Olympics out there is a great opportunity to make sure our city is at its best because think about, look, next weekend, whenever this airs, is the Academy Awards. There's homeless people on Hollywood Boulevard right now. They will not be on the red carpet when Tom Cruise walks down the

red carpet or whatever superstar walks down the red carpet. And if they were, that wouldn't be a good look. We're going to have Super Bowls and All-Star Games and World Cups and Olympics and WrestleManias and all these massive events here. We have to be at our best

because we're competing for those events and we're competing for those dollars. And as people who live and care about the city, we have to get that right. What can you learn from Paris

in five months? I know you're going to go there for the Olympics. What are you looking for? What are you trying to translate for four years later? So when we got the games in 2017, what we thought was we would get two free looks, if you will, in Tokyo and Paris. I was in Tokyo for 10 days and didn't leave my hotel. So fair to say, I didn't get to see a whole lot of sports. Not a lot of learning. And not a lot of learning. So it'll be the first chance for our staff and all of us to see in the context of planning for games, as opposed to when we were in Rio, we were bidding for games for what we're going to have to deliver.

Good and bad. Yeah. They're doing things differently. The city is different. It's a government entity that, the scale they operate is close to ours, the complexity of a big city, the complexity of politics, how do you manage transportation, how do you manage athletes and making them feel at home. So it's a lot of learning because it's our only chance to see it at scale.

One of the challenges everybody has with the Olympics is because it operates at the scale it does, there's nothing that compares to it. So you can't really practice for it. Like the first morning, opening ceremony is Friday night in Paris, first morning, opening ceremony is Friday night in Paris, Saturday morning, you know,

a half a million fans, 30,000 volunteers, 5,000 coaches and athletes will all leave essentially the same place at the same time to go to the same place at the same time and you cannot practice for that. And so that's a great thing for us to watch and see.

Not that it's the same in Paris as LA, but it's a great opportunity to watch. Have you picked what luxury hotel all the basketball players are going to be staying at? Thankfully, they have to all have suites. Well, basketball in Paris until the semis is not even in Paris. It's in Lille. Right. So the basketball teams, if they're staying in Paris, will have to train to Lille. And because of noise issues in France, if you play a night game, the train stopped running at 8 p.m. So they'll have to spend the night in Lille. I don't think Uber's getting them doing

back from Lille. I mean, by the time we get to 2028, Team USA is probably going to be like the number four favorite. I know. I mean, you know, all the odds on Canada getting a medal in Canada would be like minus 300. That's frightening alright did we hit everything

because I want to move on to other stuff any other Olympic stuff we need to hit look I think do you feel like the Olympics matters as much as it did when we were kids

I don't but I think if we're honest with ourselves the Olympics in Paris is the first real full scale Olympics in a truly great global city since London not putting anybody down,

but you went to Sochi and Rio. Then you went to Pyeongchang for a winter game. The time differences were just two of those. And then you had two COVID games. So really it's been a long time since people have seen what the Olympics can be. And I think that the combination of that and Paris will actually reignite a lot of excitement. Now, four years is a long time, so you can't maintain what you used to be able to maintain in excitement, but I think it will resonate with people in this country that, okay, we're next. Well, I really want to thank the...

When did the Paris, when is it? It's starting like July? July 26th or 8th or something. It's great for the ringer. It's like just the most dead content time ever. The doldrums of the sports world. Oh my God. There's like five weeks for nothing. Yeah. You're like fantasy football. Just like, oh wait, there might've been a basketball trade and now we'll have real stuff. I'll be interested

because I think the time zone stuff really hurt here. Plus like, you know, it's not like the old days where you can hide a result. You can't hide anything now. People know immediately. And I think one of the things you'll see this year when we watch on TV, that NBC is not going to pretend like it's live anymore, which is what they used to do in primetime. Yeah. What they're going to do is treat it like a reality show.

So reality TV is the magics and the editing. Yeah. And telling the story of what you know is happening. And I think what you'll see in primetime is not pretending like, oh, let's go to heat one because we don't know that this upset happens. No, we know is happening. And I think what you'll see in primetime is not pretending like, oh, let's go to heat one because we don't know that this upset happens. No, we know that upset. So the three hours of primetime

is going to be reality like storytelling to create the drama and the story to produce what the event. Doesn't mean at three in the afternoon, we might not watch the swimming live in LA. But you'll still watch that night because of the way it's packaged, even though we know the result.

Paris will work. Paris will work. It's the most beautiful city in the world and it's going to be absolutely spectacular. Yeah, and for the most part, what is it, six hours ahead of the East Coast, nine ahead here.

So there's, if they stack it correctly. And they're going to because obviously NBC is the most important economic partner of the Olympic movement. And so they will optimize

the big events at times that for the East Coast for sure, and sometimes on the West Coast, they're really important times for us to be able to watch. I'm like 50-50 whether I'm going or not. I mean, I haven't asked for a credential yet, which is probably a problem. But the basketball, that quarterfinals,

that was, I think, the most fun I've ever had in a basketball day. We're just the four games in a row, all the best guys. It's like the best of the final four times too. And now we have all these countries that are better. Crazy. It'll be like the final eight teams will all at least have one awesome guy in them.

And with Wemby Amuck in France actually create some magic. Oh, and you know they'll stack. For sure. They'll be stacking. It'll be like 2002 Lakers level officiating for France. And I bet they end up in a pretty good group, so to speak. True. All right, we'll take a break and then a bunch of other stuff to cover.

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what's happening with college sports. You're in the agency game. You're in the management game. You've been watching this from afar. You're in the middle of it. And it just feels like wild, wild west is not a strong enough word right now for what's going on. And now you're heavily involved with UCLA.

Like the Pac-12 fell apart. Where does this go? What do the next 10 years look like to you? So I really think we're at the fork in the road. And what you're, first of all, let's not be shy. The Big Ten and the SEC look a whole lot like the AFC and the NFC, and that's not an accident. Yep.

And the fork in the road is, does college football become its own entity and keep all the money? Or does college football monetize its rights differently and use the massive increase in revenue that that would generate to fix the system? So fixing the system, paying players, what is the fix? Look, paying players as employees is I don't think tenable for a university. So if you're a university president, the second you pay players, as you know, they will have a union and they will have

representation. So now you're going to have a collective bargaining agreement for students. You're going to have a collective bargaining agreement for teachers. You're going to have a collective bargaining agreement for people who work in the university. And if you're a university president and you have to lose a hundred million dollars a year to do that for the athletic department, you're just going to give up sports. You will give up sports. You will maybe license UCLA will license the name UCLA football to the Rams. The Rams can go operate UCLA football and pay a rent. Interesting. So the Rams would own UCLA football? Well, if you're a UCLA and you don't, and you, if having a football team is important and you can't lose a hundred million dollars100 million anymore, what else do you do?

And, you know, the truth is, it's not just, the arms race isn't just on NIL, which is clearly, especially with the ruling in Tennessee, absolutely now, the Wild West is an understatement. It's facilities,

it's salaries of coaches, it's assistant coaches, it's infrastructure, it's travel, it's salaries of coaches, it's assistant coaches, it's infrastructure, it's travel, it's the expenses around the teams are stunningly different than they used to be with no controls and no system of managing those things. So now in the college football, you have no salary cap and unrestricted free agencies and no contracts. And the coaches have no ability now to keep players unless they are the perfect home for the player.

Correct. Because if they don't do what's in the best interest of the player, which almost certainly isn't necessarily always in the best interest of the team, they leave. So John Wooden, sitting freshman, and telling Kareem, you're not playing because,

or go back to a more current version, Pete Carroll, Pete Carroll had that run of quarterbacks, right? Carson Palmer, Mark Sanchez, just all up, you know, all down the list. And he made, he convinced those guys to register a year and sit a year before they played. Yeah. Now Matt Leinart, he won what? Three Heisman trophies with it in this day and, that never happens. Because if I'm not playing, I'm leaving. And that's not good for the sport. And that's not good for college sports. It's also not good for building character.

It isn't. And persevering or anything. And putting my Olympic hat on, our Olympic movement is trained at American universities. Full stop. And if football breaks away from the system and keeps all the money,

UCLA doesn't have any sports other than football. They all become club sports. And that's pretty much most universities in the country. Well, so you got to explain that part because part of the benefit of football is you have to match the scholarships, at least on the women's side. So Title IX obviously means equal spending on both sports.

So if I'm spending how many, 90 scholarships on football or 70, whatever it is, I've got to match that on the women's side. Correct. And it's not an accident. The Team USA, our Olympic team, has more women athletes than men and they win more medals than the men. And it's a direct result of what you just said. Because our women have a disproportionate investment to other countries around the

world, our women's sports. And what you were seeing in the rise of women's sports today is a direct result of that. And the flip side of it is like something like lacrosse, which, you know, my son's playing and I was amazed by how few colleges have lacrosse because you need, that's another like 30 parts. Like it basically doesn't exist on the West Coast as a college sport. Correct. Because so many Olympic sports are on the West Coast. We've got the swimming and the diving and beach volleyball and all these Olympic sports that are the history of really Cal, Stanford, USC, and UCLA, and a lot of these West Coast teams that the Midwest and the East Coast schools don't have. And so, and the football really subsidizes everything else. So if you take, today today college football generates about $3 billion of revenue pre the new deal, TV deal. It's probably worth six or seven if the NFL is getting 13 a year. That incremental $3 or $4 million really keeps everything afloat or makes everything disappear if they keep all that money. And that's... So you think it's possible we're headed toward a new world where

way more club sports, way less like NCAA team sports? Club sports, or it's going to look like Ivy League school. No scholarships, no special privileges, none of the other stuff. It's not club or intramural, but it's not big boy. So it's like Ivy League or NESCAC or one of those. Correct. So higher, higher level D3. And I'm scared because it's not, I don't So it's like Ivy League or NESCAC or one of those. Correct. So higher, higher level D3. And I'm scared because I don't think it's what college sports and college athletics is about. And I don't think that's the best result for everybody. I don't think so either. It's a really scary proposition. I mean, look, some of the stuff that was happening before was also crazy on the flip side, right?

Like coaches being able to sign deals, then leave schools, and they recruited kids. Those kids are stuck there. Like, I hated that stuff. A hundred percent. And the system is not fixed. And the NCAA tried to solve a problem and made it worse by opening Pandora's box for NIL and what has happened now. And by the way, talk about goofy rules, going back to your point about coaches versus players. by opening Pandora's box for NIL and what has happened now. And by the way, talk about goofy rules,

going back to your point about coaches versus players. So, Deshaun Foster at UCLA. New UCLA coach. Correct. A booster can buy, this happened at the University of Utah, a booster bought every player on the football team a pickup truck. But if Deshaun Foster is reigning,

gives his quarterback a ride to the dorm, that's an NCAA violation. The quarterback can have a Ferrari that someone gave him. But if he drives, the coach drives him to the dorm because it's raining, that's a special privilege and that's an NCAA violation. I mean, we have a system that is so disconnected from reality and so not solving the problems it was trying to solve

that it's substantially worse and almost a runaway train. And now where we are, and I give Charlie Baker as the head of the NCAA credit, he understands this. The solution requires federal legislation, but we have a federal government that's as broken as it's ever been. They can't even agree on its budget. So now we're going to get them to agree on federal legislation to fix college sports. It's almost inconceivable that it can happen, even though that's the only fix that there is. And then that turns into a political issue

between the two sides versus them just trying to figure out the correct. And don't underestimate people acting their self-interest. So if you're a senator from Georgia, you kind of like this isn't the way it is because the University of Georgia is pretty good. Do you really want to level out

the playing field for everybody? Right. People act in their own self-interest usually. But if you're in like Rhode Island. Right. You think it's a good solution because you save college sports

and save amateur sports. So it's a very tenuous position and I don't think it's ever been more tenuous and more at risk than today. This is why we need a sports star. I've been talking about this for 20 years.

I dominate you. With the amount of money that's in college sports and professional sports, which I mean, you just said the NFL is making 13 billion revenue plus all the merchandise,

all the other stuff. College sports, just for their TV deal, is going to be like six, seven billion. But then you think all the way through, it sports, just for their TV deal, is going to be like six, seven billion. But then you think all the way through, it's a nine-figure billion industry

at least, just six sports. So why wouldn't we try to have more oversight over that to try to help it? We should. And by the way, it's a way bigger,

because sports is first about people's fan and fandom and connection and love it's like the toy store so we don't think of it like a business but it's a way bigger business than the music business

the entertainment industry it's not even close yeah on a global basis and on a domestic basis and you know it's

it's something that would serve a lot of interest if we did have some version of a sports star that could help create an environment that solves some of these problems

that are otherwise left to their own devices, unsolvable by the institutions themselves. Plus, it'd be funny watching the sports commissioner's answer to a sports czar. It's the super commissioner. It really would be. But what would that guy get paid? Given what the commissioners make today, can you imagine what that guy would get paid? Probably if he's doing a good job, he's probably worth like 75, 80 million a year. So when does this come to a head? Look, I think it's coming to a head now. Probably if he's doing a good job, he's probably worth like 75, 80 million a year.

So when does this come to a head? Look, I think it's coming to a head now. I think in the next 12 months, something has to happen, whether it's because if the ruling in Tennessee now, essentially, you can explicitly pay for play. Whereas NIL is theoretically not pay for play. You pay for theoretical value of the name, image, and likeness of an athlete. Now you can explicitly pay someone the court rule that it is today it is okay until it gets challenged further to really just pay someone to play. And I think you were on the edge

of the point of no return. Complete anarchy. Complete anarchy. So you could basically say, you know what? I want another UCLA men's title. I'm just going to go get the top five guys in the ESPN top 100.

Money's no object. And you can just get them. Correct. And there's no, it is legalized cheating. I mean, let's call it what it is. Yeah.

I like the old days when it was like more nefarious under the radar, cheating and nothing. And everyone pretended they didn't cheat. I feel like the wheels are coming off all over the place. Cause it felt like we were more villaging on PDs and stuff for a while. Now, I personally don't think we are. That's where the Olympics will be really interesting. I mean, you know this better than most people.

The Olympic drug testing stuff is pretty intense. It is really intense. And you're not going to be able to get away with some stuff there. But I think the drugs have gotten so good and some of the career arcs and some of the things we're seeing, it just doesn't add up to me.

And I'm just really interested to see what happens in Paris. I would tell you a friend who I will not name once said to me, failing a drug test is failing an IQ test. Well, with all the ways we have to subvert now. Correct. All right.

So let's say, I know you're heavily involved with UCLA. The PAC-12 basically goes to shit and they're asking you for advice. What are you telling them? I'm telling them they don't have a choice. And by the way, to USC's credit, USC said, we're not going to the Big Ten without UCLA. The dollar difference from the end of this past year to the start of next year in TV is almost $50 million to UCLA day one and USC.

If you're running an institution, especially UCLA, which is a public institution, you don't have a choice. You don't have $50 million showing up out of nowhere for nothing, especially at a time and place where you're running a deficit in the athletic department, which most athletic departments are. The sports marketing landscape of college sports has changed dramatically. The uniform and shoe deals have changed dramatically for the teams.

The expenses have gone up radically. You have to take that action. It's not the old days of there's not that much difference between the haves and the have-nots. You're now in a place where the difference is stunningly large. And so you have to be a part of an environment that allows you to do that. For all the controversy and all the angst that caused people, we really didn't have a choice. I don't know where any of this goes. This is the first time as a sports fan,

and we're both old now. But I think when we were younger, you're more naive. You just feel like everybody knows what they're doing. And then as we get older, you're like, oh, they're fixing some stuff now. Things are headed to the right place. And now I look around, like, it was interesting hearing Adam talk about it at All-Star Weekend about youth basketball and how he's kind of doesn't really have answers

for how to fix this. And these non-American players are coming into the league and they're better schooled. They're better taught. They have a better sense of team. Their skills translate to more systems and offenses. And he just feels like we're at a disadvantage now, which is crazy.

And it's true because we have a system that coddles those players from a young age. Coddle to super coddles. Right. Shields them from dealing with the things you need to learn to get better and develop. And now the college system is so broken, you don't even have two or three years there to, even if you're being a youth basketball player, didn't put you on the right track when you got to Duke or you got to UCLA or you got to

Michigan State, those coaches knew what they were doing and they got you ready for the NBA. And they really did the work to get you ready. Now, whether they go to the college is irrelevant. And if they're there, they're there nine months because it's the shortest amount of time they have to be there before they can go to the NBA. And so no one's going to tell them what to do in that nine months and sort of break them down and build up the skill sets they need to be successful

to compete against. I mean, look at the, we were just talking about it before we got on, you know, the quality of international players, it's stunning in the NBA. It's truly stunning. When they're coming in more, just more game ready. And this is like when I talk to people in the NBA, the point that they feel like fans don't fully understand

is the lack of practice time because of the game schedule. So Adam's complaining on the one hand about this whole infrastructure that's leading to players that aren't quite ready yet or whatever. But on the other hand, in an 82-game schedule, when you don't have the ability to practice, you can't take a young asset and develop them on your team if they're not playing, which I think Kaminga is a really good example of this with Steve Kerr, how he had to handle that. Kaminga's in year three now. He's finally just starting to play, but it came to a head a bunch of times. He was unable to play him

because they're trying to win a title. But I don't know how you fix that stuff. It's hard. And the teams, the flip side is you have these teams who take Oklahoma, right? And Shea, who we're fortunate enough to represent, because he was in a place, he got traded from the Clippers

and he was a place that there wasn't that pressure that the Warriors have. Plus he got to play with Chris Paul for the first year. Correct. And be on a decent team. And learn how to be professional. And Oklahoma City does treat their players well and they do have good coaches

and they do let them develop and grow. And now he's, you know, maybe one of the two favorites for MVP. And it didn't happen overnight. This is year five or whatever it is. It takes time he's, you know, maybe one of the two favorites for MVP and it didn't happen overnight. This is year five or whatever it is. It takes time to get, I mean, Jokic and Doncic would have been in the NBA a long time, five, six, seven years. By the way, people forget Michael Jordan didn't win his championship. What was it? Six or seven years in like this takes time. Yeah. That was seven years for him. Right. Yeah. Edwards is kind of a fluke, but I think he's such

a great athlete, but the fact that he could just kind of waltz in and at age 22, be as good as he is and be as ready, but that's- In this NBA, I think that's the exception, not the rule anymore. Yeah. Well, he's probably the biggest athletic, American athletic freak we have. I do worry, like, it's funny thinking about, because there was stuff about who's going to be on the Olympic team, right? In 24. And they've announced a bunch of names. There's a couple left. And you see like, oh, Curry and LeBron, they're playing. And those guys, you know, LeBron's 39, Curry's 35.

And you start thinking, who's the signature American guy in their 20s? You know? Even Shea is Canadian. Correct. So you have Tatum, you have Booker, and you have Anthony Edwards. But I do worry a little bit about who's going to be the face of the league when these guys are gone.

I know this is like a first take topic, but in some ways it makes me feel good as a Celtic fan because they kind of need Tatum to win the title and elevate up a level. 100%. Because he's playing at that level. Yeah. He doesn't get recognized at that level probably today.

And the finals would finally help him. Yeah. So managing NBA players versus artists, musicians, other sports, like are all celebrities the same when they hit a certain wealth kind of talent success level or is everybody completely different from each other? Is it like having kids where you can have seven kids and the kids are all different? It's more of the second. They're very different. I do think in a company like ours,

more likely than not, the core traits of those clients are more similar because I always think it's not an accident who you represent and who you don't. The way we do business is the way we do business that appeals to some people and maybe not others. Yeah. Talent is talent. What makes them successful is what also makes them, in many ways, you can't, you're not, you don't tell talent what to do. Yeah. No different than my agents are talent and what makes them successful agents also makes them hard to manage too. Yeah. There's a skillset in that. And so, you know, my view is all we can do for clients is promise one thing that what we tell them is what we believe is in their best interest. We don't have another agenda here at this company because my name's on the door and I wouldn't sacrifice our reputation for some short term game that we didn't believe was in the best interest of a client. That doesn't mean we're right. And that doesn't mean they're supposed to agree with us, but it means that our, our advice and our perspective in service of clients is what we believe is in the best interest of their career and the nuances of them. And they have to trust you. They do. And if you don't have that trust, it doesn't work either way. Um, now the difference

with sports and music and entertainment is that the support system in sports is unique. The teams really do support the clients. You know, when Shea is in Oklahoma, they handle the travel, they handle the hotels, they handle the food during the season. They have a support staff for them and we are part of that support staff and then it goes away and they go back on tour and you rebuild it the the structure of sports does provide a lot of support to the talent in in ways that other talent doesn't get you know in a in a such a permanent way so if you're on a movie set you have support for three months and then you have no support yeah when you're not on tour and you're not working, we're the support system. It would seem like movie and TV need agents the most. Because you have to find what's my next job? What's my next job? Should I take this? What do we think of this script? Hey, this director's doing this. How can I get in there? Whereas somebody like Shay, he's going to sign a max deal and then his deal's

going to be up and then he'll sign another max deal as long as he's good. You can do the management part of him, but his salary is a hundred percent. And the thing I think what you and I probably love about sports is it's about the scoreboard. It's actually about what you do. And in entertainment, there is no scoreboard. It's harder to have that. And so, well, you, and if you have a loss all of a sudden you could be out of the loop. Correct. And so the managing of a career, and again, coming back to having what's in the client's best interest and thinking about taking the right steps to get to the result, which is

what you have to do in sports. You don't want to short that process and take shortcuts because in the end it won't be sustainable. So managing career in music and entertainment is fundamentally different and as you said, much more important. Managing career in athletics, if they're a great athlete,

they know what they're doing and they know essentially where they're doing it and to some extent who they're doing it for. What you're doing is taking advantage of that talent in every other area right in the other entertainment music space you're doing all of that and you start over every day because the movie's over the tour's over the album's over you got to start over and you got to create what's next uh in the success and guaranteed shay taking care of himself and being healthy he he's going to be playing basketball for a long time.

And so that's not what we're worried about. Especially with this weird game. He doesn't even shoot threes. He's got a herky-jerky. It's unbelievable. Do you find there's a common trait with successful athletes, musicians, actors, like with how they had the people around them,

the circle they have? Is it, you know, because it's, and I don't know, I don't even know if this is true. And maybe a study would refute this, but it seems like the smaller the circle of people you completely trust, the better off that person's going to be. And the wider the circle and the more like kind of chaos in it is the more, it seems like a little more dangerous. No question. And I think, I think the point is the people you surround yourself with

usually a reflection of how secure you are and comfortable are you with yourself. Yeah. The bigger the circle, probably the more validation you need from other places. And the more people you telling you what you should do or how good you are helping you. And if you're secure in yourself and you feel comfortable by yourself you don't need a whole lot of that and there's enough chaos in their lives every day the chaos outside of their work is a really bad thing and so i think it's really important to your point to have a small group of people what whoever they are and whatever they do that they're there because they support you and only are there

to support you and don't have another agenda. Their livelihood isn't dependent. I mean, and you see that and you see the stars who have sustained success almost invariably have a very small group of people who have been with them for a very long time. And how small is that group, do you think? I mean, in some cases it's one or two or three, including an agent or a manager. I've never more than four or five on a sustained basis because, I mean, in the end, you're busy, you've got two kids. How many friends do you really have time to have that you really do trust? To talk to every day, yeah. It's not a lot. And so you don't have time. And if you have that many friends, they're actually

not as close to you as you think they are. And you probably don't know what else they're doing. It's been interesting watching Tatum because Tatum's, he gets drafted in 2017 and the first seven years of his career have just been like, just amazing to watch. Like he came in super polished. He was always good at like handling the media and saying the right things. He came in super polished. He was always good at handling the media and saying the right things. He's an unbelievable role model. But his mom is pretty legendary in Celtic circles for how amazing of a parent she is. And she's just, everything runs through her. She's the gatekeeper. That's it. You have to go through her. And it's just like, man, I wish more people just saw it this way.

You need that one person who's like, that's the person. You do. And because what she does for him is his success, his livelihood depends on how much he's able to focus on his craft. Yeah. And so she's taking all the noise and distraction away from him in a singular person as opposed to if it's 10 people, that creates more noise for the athlete or the star or the talent. When it's one person and he's not worried about what she's doing or who she's saying to what.

Because he trusts her completely. And he can focus on what he does, which is at this point maybe one of the two or three best players of his generation. Yeah.

Yeah, it's pretty neat. Well, there's, I'm sure there's all kinds of methods to this, but I'm always amazed people don't just study the ones who have succeeded the best with it. You know, and even LeBron over the years, like he, he had a couple of different incarnations and

it seems like he landed in the right spot around somewhere near the end of Miami where his team kind of cut down a little bit and then that was it. And from that point on really became a master with how to handle all this stuff. They are and they are with him completely and fully and they allow him to be and do what he does. Or there's the Durant model where it's just him and Rich. Right. And that's it. There's just the two of us.

We're doing everything together. We're doing all our business on the side together. 100%. And that's why they've had success. What, if we're going sports, going up, down, like you were big in on soccer

pretty early. Last, I would say, really ever since I've known you. Yep. And globally and just you were always

kind of thinking that way, trying to snap up soccer players in all these different countries. What's coming? What have you been kind of diving into as we hit the mid,

we're in the mid-2020s now. I know, it's crazy. Soccer is going to continue to grow. And that's not just MLS in this country. That's soccer globally, which will continue to benefit from the interest in soccer

in the United States. I think you're going to start to see, just like the NFL is playing a lot of games in Europe and overseas, I would be shocked if the Premier League and the big leagues in Europe

don't start playing a lot of games in the U. They should. I imagine they will. So you think they do that to try to grow interest and have somebody in Detroit be like, my favorite team is Liverpool because they play here three times a year. Correct. And I think what you, Americans like to watch the best and today the best football, soccer in the world is in Europe. And to have summer tour games over here where not the best players play and they don't really play their best game does not actually serve the long-term interest of the sport because they come and they go and they're really just, it's a marketing and a vacation tour. And look, you just saw it with Messi when he went to Asia. He didn't play a couple of games. There was almost a riot. He was there. He was on the bench, but he didn't play because he didn't want to play. He didn't play a couple of games. There was almost a riot.

He was there. He was on the bench, but he didn't play because he didn't want to play. He didn't want to get hurt. They don't want him to get hurt. He wants to play him for the MLS season and take advantage of what he is and who he is. But if you had Chelsea play Liverpool in New York City, that's a big deal. And it's an actual Premier League game. Correct.

And I think that's- So kind of what the NFL is doing where they have the games in Germany and wherever. Exactly. And Adam's taking games think that's kind of what the NFL is doing where they have the games in Germany. Exactly. And then Adam's taking games to Paris and to the Middle East. And that matters taking your, the best of who you are to really important markets and the most opportunity for football to continue to grow in the world is probably in the United States economically. Yeah.

Um, and obviously it's, it's now it's in fashion to say, but the continued rise of women's sports is going to be meaningful. And, and finally the economics are starting to say, but the continued rise of women's sports is going to be meaningful. And finally, the economics are starting to catch up with the influence and the power and the importance of those athletes. Well, this will be the Caitlin Clark question, right? When she becomes a pro, whenever that is, what does that do to the WNBA?

Because that'll be the, and people will be like, no, no, we've had a bunch of great players. Believe me, I ride with Tarasi. She's the best. But they've never had anybody who can come in and just be like a casual fan talking point. Correct. People know who Caitlin Clark is who don't know anything about women's basketball. Well, and also you're in a situation where the women's college hoops for March Madness will be bigger than the men's and will probably, I would say that final four Friday night, if Kaitlin Clark's in it

and a couple of these others, if Juju's in it or whoever, I would say that rating is going to be like a borderline NFL rating. And I'm surprised because I think it would be spectacular if they put the women's and the men's final four in the same city together.

And just have a four-day basketball extravaganza. I mean, that would actually help the women's and the men's Final Four in the same city together. And just have a four-day basketball extravaganza. I mean, that would actually help the men's more than the women's. But the women could sell out every one of those stadiums now that they play the men's Final Four. And the women are superstars. The basketball is incredible, and it would be great for everything. Yeah, the thing for me is

the basketball is actually fun to watch now. I didn't enjoy it as much 25 years ago. But the slashing kick has really helped and the players are coming in with crazy skills. But Chuck and I talked about it on our podcast when we did it about how the continuity of the teams is the biggest thing for me. The fact that I watched Caitlin Clark last year

with almost all of the same Iowa kids, right? And now she's playing with them. And I was like, oh, there's their center. I remember her just having familiarity with players. it's one of the things that's killed college sports exactly right and and you see the value of it when you look at that and you realize what you're missing in the men's game in basketball that you don't have that anymore so you talked to all these different commissioners that you're friends with what What is their biggest fear? Like, does Roger Goodell have fear anymore? It feels like they've come through every single crisis.

The ratings are the best they've almost ever been. He's got actual American stars under 30 who are going to carry the league, right? He's got Burrow and he's got Mahomes and he's got Josh Allen and Herbert and maybe one of the guys from this class. It seems like they're in the best shape plus the concussion stuff. I feel like they've made a lot of fixes with that that's helped. So if you're Goodell, what are you scared of? Well, I think the second you get complacent, you should be scared. So I don't think they're

ever getting complacent. Going back to what we said before about college football, I think their biggest competitor is college football. So that was interesting with this college football playoff. John O'Rean just wrote about this for Puck, about they put on the Saturday in December a little fuck you scheduling against the NFL, which was always like, hey, that's our day, that's Saturday.

And college football's like, we're in there. Which the NFL's like, they're like Sicilians. They'll be like, okay, that's our day. That's Saturday. And college football is like, we're in there. Which the NFL is like, you know, they're like Sicilians. They'll be like, okay, are we going? We're dropping the gloves now? So I think college football, if I were Roger, obviously lots of things would come up.

The transition to the next wave of what media rights deals look like, even though he's got a great, probably nine-year run or whatever's left now. And they have monetized them incredibly well. But having said that, I think he's really focused on international, clearly.

And he's leaned into that way harder than I think people give him credit for playing a game in Brazil. Operationally, it's unbelievably complicated, but it's smart to do what he's done in Europe and Brazil and Australia and all the places he's going. And college football, I think for two reasons,

it's something to keep an eye on. One, if you have 64 teams playing call it big boy college football, I think for two reasons, it's something to keep an eye on. One, if you have 64 teams playing call it big boy college football, first of all, the talent base that the NFL gets for free just got cut in half. You have 110 schools essentially going to 65.

Their free talent development pipeline is now cut in half. And the second piece is college football is a really powerful media enterprise and monetized and executed. If there was a commissioner of college football, how valuable would college football be compared to the NFL playing the same exact sport with very entrenched fan bases that have the alumni connection that's a little bit different? Like we just saw with Michigan.

Correct. I mean, is a Friday night football game between Michigan and Texas or Alabama and USC? That's pretty compelling compared to, you know, certain NFL games. And not that they're going to touch the NFL, but if you're looking at the landscape, the second highest rated sport today on TV is college football. And so it's an interesting place to be in. So the NFL could drop their age requirement for the draft and they could... Look, I think what the NFL can be thinking about is not to diminish the competitive nature of what college sports is, but to actually to use the power of football to really save amateur sports in this country.

Which is the same spot basketball's in. Correct. But football has more clout. Football has more clout and it is the money trained in college sports that could create the opportunity. So different than basketball, where the money trains at the NBA, the money trained in college is football. It's probably 90% of the economics and the NFL using its influence and power to lift up

everyone else at a time when we put flag football in the Olympics, which means now internationally and for girls, they can play football, which will become a D one sport very soon. The opportunity for them to really save this incredible 50 years of title nine and preserve it forever based on the power of football is actually, I think a pretty incredible opportunity. Take one more break.

Let's talk about some media stuff because those are also people you talk to. Streaming, all the platforms, the rise of Netflix. Netflix is now doing live stuff. Amazon is in a football that worked. How do the networks survive? Just by throwing even more money

than they were prepared to spend? At some point, there's a tipping point, right? There is. The question is, what does it mean to be a network? In 10 years, just because NBC has the purest representative of their network on their streaming platform, which is Peacock, ostensibly in 10 years, are Peacock and NBC and LA Channel 4 the same thing? Is there really a difference? That's basically what happened with Showtime and Paramount, right? Showtime just kind of became Paramount. Correct. And so I don't think that's inconceivable. The power of sports, which is clear, is it is predictable and unique in a world where very little else is in the media world. So you know, if you want to reach a certain demographic who cares about football, you

buy NFL rights or college football rights. And once you have them, no one else can have them. So you don't have to guess what people like. You're not creating a sitcom and spending $100 million and hoping it works. And if you have it, no one else can have it. And that's powerful and important when leagues, you know, leagues, just like media companies, have been B2B companies.

Leagues sold their rights to three or four people. And those three or four people sold their carriage to three or four cable companies And those three or four people sold their carriage to three or four cable companies. And essentially cables were versions of geographic monopolies that if you want to watch, you had to use Spectrum here or Comcast here or Charter there. All of these entities are now going direct to consumer. And sports is a really valuable piece of the puzzle because it's the one thing that you can directly connect with consumers and you can get what you know they want. And so the question is, does it ever come to a place where the NFL can monetize its rights better or a league can monetize its rights better by not selling its rights and being the monetizing its rights for its own account?

So that's WWE tried to do that 2013, right? Had it just built its own network and it was like, yeah, we're just going to have everything here. And then the rights became so expensive outside. They were like, well, wait, let's do that instead. And the question is in 2013, the, the cable bundle, the fees were still pretty strong compared to where they were. Maybe you went from a hundred million to 80 million, You're going to 40 million guaranteed homes. At that point, the question becomes, what is the monetization?

So I think the real first opportunity to think about this, the NBA is going to get a great TV deal because it's a really powerfully important product and the timing is great and the collapse of the regional sports network, the timing that may actually benefit the NBA in its rights negotiations. But at some point in the next five years, someone's going to decide there's a part of

our business that we can monetize directly and it's more valuable than selling it to someone else and having that direct relationship with our customers. And so I think we're there. We are. The problem is the intermediate companies are still willing to spend in some cases,

maybe excessive amounts of money to protect their world. So, if you think about Paramount today, what CBS

or Paramount owes the NFL is more than the enterprise value of the company today. Somebody just told me that two days ago and it almost made

my brain melt. I mean, I think they owe the NFL $25 billion and I think today the enterprise value of the company today. Somebody just told me that two days ago and it almost made my brain melt. I mean, I think they owe the NFL $25 billion. And I think today the enterprise value of the company is $10 billion. Right. Not great. Not great, Bob. It's a Tony Romo voice.

That's not good, Jim. That's tough. Here's the, I haven't talked about this on the pod before. I think the part people are missing with these streamers, specifically Netflix and Amazon, is the intelligence they're getting

for the games that they can give to the leagues. And that, I don't see how NBC, CBS, ABC, even ESPN can compete, or Fox, can compete with what Netflix can learn about your customer base. And that was like, I think the job Google did with Sunday Ticket, that's another one.

I totally agree. What they were doing with Sunday Ticket versus DirecTV where it's like, yeah, we're showing your games. Hopefully we won't break. And then YouTube gets it and they're like, hey, so here's what we found out. All right, we studied 270 markets. Here's how many hours people watch.

Here's the male-female breakdown. Here's how many hours people watch. Here's the male-female breakdown. Here's how often they come back. Here's who watches straight through. And they just, if I'm Goodell, I want that more than the money almost. A hundred percent. And the protection that the sports leagues have that traditional entertainment companies don't have

with relation to Netflix and Amazon. Netflix and Amazon went to school on everybody and then they just started doing it themselves. Right. For years. We learned. Oh, okay. Jokes over.

We don't have to pay you anymore. We get to spend the money for ourselves. We learned everything and now we can monetize. Would you follow some of the Amazon stuff, what they did with the Black Friday game? Yeah. I don't even know if a lot of it

has been totally reported, but just the ability to customize ads specifically to what's in your algorithm. It's like, oh, Casey loves paper towels. I said, we're going to throw him the paper towel ad versus NBC. It's like, here's your ad. Everyone else is getting the ad.

It's really powerful. And it's their ability to monetize that. And as long as there's multiple competitors competing for those rights on the streaming side, the leagues are going to be beneficiaries of it. Which makes me think Amazon, Netflix, Google, YouTube, 10 years from now, I don't know how the networks compete with it.

I agree. Because they just have too much intelligence. And traditionally in business, when technology disrupts entrenched players, usually disruptor buys the legacy company. Right, so like YouTube, Google buys Paramount. And in the day and age we're in, they would never be allowed to.

It's this weird thing. And so they can just go, they have different economics, different capacity, different monetization opportunities given the data you're talking about. Yeah. They can't go buy CBS.

They don't, Apple doesn't need to buy ESPN. Right. If they want to go spend inordinate amounts of money to have a service on Apple, to serve their customers, and even if it's non-economic to everyone else,

their economics are different and their opportunity is different. And having said that, you may end up in a place in 10 years where all sports are on streaming platforms because it is the highest opportunity to monetize those rights. Especially with the product placement. And even like I was just on Chang's eating show on Netflix, which was really fun.

But they're going to eventually have the ability to put some of the products he's using. And you're just like, what's that? And, you know, there'll be a thing that pops up. And I'm sure all that stuff's coming over the next couple of years. Like, oh, man, I really like that pan he's using. And you're just like, what's that? And you know, there'll be a thing that pops up and I'm sure all that stuff's coming over the next couple of years. Like, oh man, I really like that pan he's using. How do I get that? Oh, press one button. Oh, there it is. Now I have the pan. I'm sure you love it with YouTube TV. Like it's so easy to find a game. Yeah. Like we are, you and I are degenerate sports fans. It's hard to know where to find a game these days.

Well, especially like, I mean, the baseball playoffs are the worst. It's like, all right, I'm going to roll through my seven possibilities for this baseball game. But basketball is becoming just as hard to figure out, whether it's NBA TV, TNT, ABC, ESPN. And I think that's one of the things that will get resolved as Adam goes into this new deal

is they've learned a lot of that and that discovery and consistency, which is what the NFL, one of the things they benefit from, the NBA as they engineer this new deal can actually structure for. And so that you know on Thursdays it's always X and there's

only two or three choices and otherwise all the streaming games are on this platform, local and national. Like I think that's a result that actually is better for everybody. Well, the NBA has a different problem, which Derek Thompson talked about on my podcast a couple weeks ago. There are all these people that are huge NBA fans

that don't watch the games that much. And they like the circus around the games. They like listening to podcasts and watching shows about the games and going on social and watching highlights and being like, oh, I saw the Wimbanyama highlights last night, but they didn't actually watch the Spurs game. And that's the difference between basketball and football right now. Football, you're sitting there actually watching the game. And I don't know whether it's fantasy gambling, whether football is

just more fun to watch, but I think people like me that are actually sitting there on a freaking Wednesday night watching Bulls Cavs. I don't know if there's a lot of us. I think the question is not whether a lot of you, but how to of us, cause we're both those weirdos, but how do the NBA and Adam has been super thoughtful and aggressive about this create products for the ones who aren't us so that, Oh, you know what? I watched that highlight. So you know what? I want to watch the last three minutes of the Cavs-Spurs game. Right. And how do you do that?

Would you say there was a Wimbinyama dunk that became the most viewed clip in the history of the NBA? It was like 159 million clip or whatever. I forget what the number was. It's the disconnect between the ratings and the reach of the NBA. The ratings are one thing.

The reach and penetration of the NBA globally is pretty powerful. They're not measured in traditional rating terms. Well, we saw it with our kids. I mean, our kids are around the same age, but we're watching how they're consuming media and we're like, oh, baseball's in trouble. This is bad.

They're not really sitting around for eight hours on a Sunday. You know, it's funny. I'll call my daughter and say, you know, I watch a game. Did you see that play? And she goes, yes, I saw the highlight on Instagram.

My son does the same thing. And I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. I had when Max Drew hit that 60 footer and I yelled at my son, hey, you got to come down and watch this.

He's like, I just saw it. It's crazy. Somebody snapped it to me. Exactly. Whatever that happens. what do you think about all the the gambling money and all and that whole thing do you think we are where we are does that go another level because it seems like all the sports have now embraced it um it seems like it's part of the dialogue around this the games look you and i were kids when jimmy the greek was on

the air and that was a crazy thing i loved it me. Me too. He's one of the many reasons why I love gambling on stuff. Phyllis George and Jimmy the Greek are the good old days, right? The best. Look, it is definitely all in. My son, who is not a huge sports fan, he and his buddies will call me, which I can assure you,

I don't answer their questions. Yeah. They want to come up to the NBA trade deadline. What's your clients you're getting traded at? I'm like, I'm not telling you. You and your degenerate friends are going to get me arrested. What's OKC doing, Dad? Exactly. But that's what gambling is done. You're betting on who's getting traded at. I'm like, I'm not telling you. You and your degenerate friends are going to get me arrested. What's OKC doing, Dan? Exactly. But that's what gambling is done.

You're betting on who's getting traded. It's crazy. Yeah. The award stuff, which sadly I'm not allowed to bet on, but it is even like the futures and the conference odds. And I was on a text chain the other day about Denver Celtics was five to one, that that would be the finals, right? At the start of the year, I think it was nine to one. And we were like, is that good value or not? So now we're doing texts about, okay, round one, Celtics. Like they're going to win that. All right, round three, who's the biggest threat?

And we're just trying to figure out what the odds are. I'm like, it's 9.30 on a Tuesday morning. This is what I'm doing? But someone told me, I don't know if this is true, but someone told me, I was talking about if this is true, but someone told me, I was talking about security in relation to the Olympics. I go, you know,

the NFL with all the security had a streaker. But did you know that you could bet on if there was a streaker? And apparently the guy bet on a streaker and he streaked.

What? I don't know if this is true, but apparently the guy Oh, that's a great story. That's a great story. So you got to go dig into that. What did you feel about, I know you've probably

looked at the Clippers Arena, right? Did you get the tour? It's, it's, look, I- Is this a future of sports type of arena? So, look, what I give Steve a ton of credit for is he is, as we know, an incredibly passionate basketball fan. When I sit next to him at games, you're always the first text to make sure I'm safe. Right, right.

He wants it to be a temple of basketball and to make the sport the most important thing. And so he is doing everything he can with all the resources and technology and line of sight he has to do that. The question is, can he retrain fans to engage with that? And I give him a lot of credit because it's going to be spectacular.

I don't know what happens when he turns the lights off on the concourse or people who aren't at a Broadway show and I give him a lot of credit because it's going to be spectacular. I don't know what happens when he turns the lights off on the concourse or people who aren't at a Broadway show know that means that it's time to go and the game's going to start.

I don't know if everything being a grab and go is good. I don't know if certain, if TVs being off in the concourse is good to force you to go and watch the game.

It's a genius idea and I hope it works because it actually will benefit for a long time to come. And I give him credit for doing it because frankly, until now, as you and I have talked about, as we've gone to a lot of basketball games together, for all the money and all the fanciness, once you sit in a bowl, almost every arena is the same. And he is the first one to say, you know what? I'm going to do something different because I want the Clippers to be the most

important thing, not everything and the Clippers to be the most important thing, not everything, and the Clippers to be the most important thing. And built it for basketball, which the last team I think that did that was Indiana. It was. And still today, that is one of the better areas in the NBA. Because you have the corners. The whole thing.

So Bomber matched that, but also figured out the lower level, some sweet stuff, how to build the noise so that it pushes, uh, toward the, toward the court. And I love that. And I think he took some learnings from, from European soccer, from what LAFC has done with their supporters group in the end zone with what going to basketball game at Cameron's like with the energy and the passion. Like I give him a lot of credit and I hope it works. I really want to see how the Lakers respond

to it. That'd be the other thing. Cause Staples Center, that's like 24 years old, but there's this whole era of these buildings that were built for NBA and NHL from like mid nineties through, I would say like maybe 2005 that seemed really modern when they were built and now seem just kind of, eh. It's like the days when they built baseball and football, three rivers and Cincinnati. Right. When we were growing up. Exactly. Those concrete kind of mausoleum stadiums. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now it's inconceivable. Yeah, just these big circle of concrete. And Bo Jackson running across an infield on a football field. Well, I'm hoping that Balmer maybe will inspire some of these other teams to think like, oh, we'll steal this, we'll steal that. And I hope he does because it's going to be great for the sport.

And I think the energy, and he's clearly got a great basketball team this year. If it works, it's going to be truly spectacular. And to your point, change what arenas are like going forward. Well, before we go, we got to talk, just because Nathan's probably listening, future of getting in and out of stadiums, which I know you were, that was a big passion, Nathan.

He had a little company around it. And we have the Olympics coming. What does it look like to enter a stadium by the end of the 2020s, by the time we get to the Olympics? I think radically different than it does today. Radically different. I do.

Look, everyone talks about privacy and security. And I actually was out of the country and I came back to the country. And when you go to customs now, they use their iPhone and take a picture but you don't even pull out your passport anymore. So they have all of our, let me tell you, our facial recognition is there. It's a wrap.

So, look, what you want to do is create the safest experience and the most fan-friendly experience. And the fastest experience. Correct. And right now we're not doing all of those three together. It's really safe, but it's a brutal experience and it's not fast. We can create a fan-friendly experience, but it's probably not safe.

Yeah. And so we have to solve for how do you expedite that process? But more importantly, the underpinning to all that is if you're a sports team, you don't know who's in your building, where they got their tickets, what they paid for the tickets and what they do when you're in your building.

So it's hard to be- There's no digital footprint for where the ticket arrived from. Well, think of it this way. Every airline knows who's on their planes and what they paid for their tickets. And they treat you differently based on those things. Yeah. Cause the value of a customer is different on your experience. And so if you go to 40 Clipper games and take a sandwich in a brown paper bag, you probably should pay full price for your tickets. If your buddy goes, if house goes to three games and takes 10 kids every time and spends a thousand dollars on merch and food, he should probably get his tickets for free. We don't know that today. And that's an opportunity for teams to better serve their

customers, to generate more revenue, to be a better customer service experience. But that starts with how do you get in, how are tickets sold, and how are those processes managed? And we have to evolve because what it does today is actually not producing the best result for anybody. So you're talking about, I go to an Equipper game. They know it's either my ticket or I got it from a friend, but I have some sort of digital footprint with them. And they know when I go, it's like, oh, that's Bill. He's going to buy a bottle of water.

He's probably going to buy peanuts and he might get a hot dog if he hadn't eaten yet. Those are going to be his three things, but that's it. He's not going to buy any merchandise. He's not going to buy a beer. He's kind of like a lower level spender. Yeah. Well, look, no different than when you do the doom scroll on Instagram and you buy something stupid because they know that that's what you like. Or when we all go on Amazon every day, I probably reorder five things I don't need because I said, hey, last time you things, you might need some of these things. Well, we're good with those things. Why aren't we good with it at an event? By the way, when you sat down, if they know that every time in the first quarter, you have the peanuts and the beer and the hot dog, what if they just brought it to you?

Right. That would be a great experience for you. Or they know that I went three times and I did all this stuff. Then they're like, Hey man, do you want to come again? Here's, we're going to actually almost like how casinos work. Exactly. We're going to comp your ticket. So you come. Correct. By the way, because we know when there's a Saturday night game against New York or Boston, you're always there. Yeah. Hey, by the way, Bill, New York's coming next week. Here's four tickets. Oh, that's true. Like for the transplants. Hey, the Celtics are coming. Right. So the lack of knowledge of who's in our venues and what they're doing is, is I think one of the great last big upsides for all of sports and all of teams and all of actually live events. So it's like a driver's license almost. And when you go in, I'm like NBA customer

number 5732. It's like, oh, that guy's here. He was in Boston three weeks ago and that said that on his footprint. Now he's at this footprint. By the way, no different than when you go on open table, make a reservation, they ask you if you have food allergies. When you get to the table, you're like, yeah, I'm allergic to peanuts. Right.

Like, that's all good stuff. The one thing that the digital age has done is create, should create this perfect customer service and experience.

And yet, going to a game today is just like it was in 1985, pretty much. All right, last question. So if the, if 2028 goes great,

does that mean we could just have the summer Olympics every four years? Who else wants it? Well, if that's the result, I can assure you it won't be me doing it every, every four years. That is a certainty. Who else wants it?

Do people even want the Olympics anymore? Unless you have all the infrastructure like that we have, they, there are cities that do. So Brisbane already has 2032. Yeah. The 2036 bidders are going to be a group of people that you would think would spend whatever it takes. It's going to be India.

Right. Somewhere in the Middle East. Right. You're going to have those kinds of places bidding. So for them- It's going to be like what happened at the World Cup. It elevates them to the world stage in a different kind of way. Okay. Casey Wasserman, good to see you. Good to see you.

All right. Thanks to Casey Wasserman and Matt Bellany. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing as always. Don't forget youtube.com slash Bill Simmons, subscribe, get videos and clips and all kinds of things. I'm going to be back on this podcast on Thursday. Looking forward to it. Must be 21 plus in President's Black States. I don't have to be a fan. Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Vermont, and Virginia. You can call 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 in Arizona. Call 1-888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. 1-800-9WITH-IT in Indiana. 1-800-522-4700 or visit ksgamblinghelp.com in Kansas. 1-877-770-STOP in Louisiana. mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. 1-800-GAMBLER.NET in West Virginia.

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