The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Celtics Rock Bottom, Embiid’s Big Statement, and Golden State at the Crossroads With Kevin O’Connor

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor to discuss the Celtics' Game 5 loss to the 76ers (1:39), a runaway Nuggets win over the Suns in Game 5 (41:10), the Warriors' current predicament and shaky future, and more (53:32). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Kevin O'Connor Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

coming up, I'm going to talk basketball. I'm not in a good mood. That's next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then

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You should listen to Dave Chang's show as well. That's his podcast with us. And there you go. Coming up on this podcast, I only have one guest. Kevin O'Connor, KOC, Kevin O'Paychecks, Kevin O'Pageviews, Kevin O'Downloads, and he's going to try to cheer me up, but he won't because I'm disconsolate after the Celtics tonight. We're going to talk Nugget Sons as well. We're going to talk about the Warriors. What the hell is going to go on with them?

Is this the end of the dynasty? Man, lots of storylines tonight. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, taping this 926 Pacific time. We thought we were going to be coming on right after a really good Phoenix-Denver game, which turned out to be a dud. Kevin O'Connor and I are going to talk about it in a little bit. We're going to start with Celtics, Sixers.

I've had a pit in my stomach all day, KOC. I did not fly back for this game. I did not have a great feeling about this game. I could tell immediately in the first couple minutes. I went on Twitter and I was like, I'm out. I'm not tweeting anymore, so don't expect tweets from me during this. Saving it for the pod, huh, Bill? I have a bad feeling we're saving it for the pod tonight. But I'm going to go backwards. I went to

the Lakers-Warriors game last night and I was watching LeBron James in the second half where, you know, his stat line was fine. He was moving around okay. It wasn't like a legendary LeBron James game or anything. But as he kind of figured out what to do against the Warriors as that game went along, and especially realizing it was only Curry on the other side, how do we wear him down? I'm going to keep punishing him. Let me keep getting him in on switches.

Oh, he's got Lonnie Walker on him. Maybe Lonnie Walker can, and just over and over again, just trying to wear down Curry and just the way his crazy basketball brain works. And I felt like mentally, he just kind of figured out the words as the game went along and they were tough for them, they win. And then you watch that Celtic game today, no rhyme or reason, no cohesion, no toughness really at all. Philly, the one making the

adjustments, Doc Rivers outcoaching somebody in a playoff series. The crowd seeing it immediately. And a team that just, the Celtics team that just hasn't seemed to learn from the last four games with this game. It was a disaster. It was an embarrassment. Let's start there. What happened, in your opinion, to this team over these last five games? What happened?

It just feels like a culmination of everything you've been talking about on your podcast the whole year with a lack of adjustment from missoula a lack of feel with the rotation uh then that the way the hard and bead pick and roll just continues to pick apart bosses defense not changing matchups not forcing hard and right i mean we've seen defenses over the years when Harden was in his prime, the way they've shaded him like an extreme manner to try to force him right. We've seen so many creative, innovative defenses against Harden over the years. But Mazzola and the Celtics defense has done absolutely nothing.

And with that said, though, I mean, it's not just on Joe Mazzola, a rookie head coach, and all the mistakes that have been made by him. I think it's just part of the infrastructure of this team that's been here for years, the frequency of which they've emphasized three pointers. If you're not making, it's one of those nights where you're cool for three, where Al Horford goes over seven and Tatum's three, four, 11 and whites over two and up and down the line that this offense just did it ping pongs the ball around. and like there's marcus smart last week said oh yeah our offense is random it's random and it's gross a lot of the time and

and tonight is one of those nights where it just feels like they're not running any set plays and and that's been something you know even going back to steven so i i don't directly blame mozilla there necessarily it's just been part of this Celtics personality for years now. And how much of that is due to coaching? How much of that is due to Tatum and Brown? Everybody will have a different answer about that, but it's an infrastructural issue I think we saw tonight. I think that's fair. I looked up their stats in wins with three-point shooting percentage versus losses. Have you looked at this? No, I'm sure it's extreme, right? In wins, this was regular season, 40.3% from three. And in losses, 31.6%. Wow. Now some of

that is, all right, yeah, that makes sense. You make more shots when you're winning. But on the other hand, that's kind of what this team is. When the threes aren't going in, this was what I was worried about in every playoff series with them. If you're relying on the three as much as they do, there's always one game where they're not going in. And unfortunately for them, it was game five. But let's go backwards. You're a kid from Massachusetts. I'm a kid that my dad has had Celtic season tickets now for 50 years. There's been a lot of bad Celtic losses over the years and I could spend the next 15 minutes recounting them. Game four was a really, really, really iconically bad loss. Rizalot and I came on after we did a pod about it and I was really

shook from that game. And then a day later, Mazzulla comes out and he says, you know what? I actually did make a mistake. I should have called a timeout. And I'm like, no, you just made it worse. I don't, I don't, don't admit, don't admit something like that. But just going back and just thinking like that sequence of Jalen Brown, who also admitted he made a mistake, leaving Harden, going down to double Embiid, who was a complete mess at that point.

Harden opened three. They walk the ball up. They take forever getting the play. Tatum doesn't start the play until six seconds left and then doesn't get a shot off. To me, that's the 2022-23 Celtics in a nutshell. This incredibly talented team that would just shoot itself in the foot over and over again. And in big moments against really good teams, came up short a lot of the times. The first time was that Warriors game, right? When they were, what were they, 21 and five? And it's like, all right, this team has some hair in its chest now. They talked a lot of talk about finals last year. We really learned something. Now I want it so bad, Tatum. I want it so bad I can taste it. And they just, they talked a big game about, we think we're the best team in the league. Our goal is to win a championship. And the Warriors came and it was a

10-8 round. They just beat the shit out of them. And they were tougher and they just dominated them. And I don't feel like the team was ever a% the same after that. There were ups, there were downs, but even in the playoffs, six game series against the Hawks, down 3-2 against the Sixers. Did you see the stat in their last 19 playoff games at home? They're 9-10. What does that tell you?

This is a great home crowd. How are you 9-10 in your last 19? It's one of the best home crowds. Right. I just go back to that Warriors game. That was the first sign where I was like, wait a second. This is not a good sign. That was the tail end of that hot start where they're hitting like 40-plus percent of their threes,

taking half their shots from threes. And from there, I think that's where a lot of those problems became apparent with their offense. And I think it's fair for Missoula to take you know say hey you know hindsight 2020 i didn't make a mistake there it's fair for him to be criticized i'm curious about your thoughts bill for like the brown tatum core that leadership like brown and his career has been to three eastern conference finals one nba finals tames tatum's been to three Eastern Conference Finals, one NBA Finals. Tatum's been to two Eastern Conference Finals, one NBA Finals. They've lost in the first round.

They've been through heartbreak. They've lost in an NBA Finals. At this point, I mean, all these playoff runs, they're not babies anymore. Tatum's not actually 19 anymore. They're not in their young 20s. They're in their mid-20s. Is it fair to expect more from those guys at that point when it comes to managing the game in those situations?

This is the right day to ask that question. Down 3-2 on the brink and then we find out about All-NBA on Wednesday and if Tatum, I mean I'm sorry, if Brown gets one of the three All-NBA teams, he now becomes eligible for a $270 million contract extension.

And he's got a year left on his current contract. And if you're the Celtics, unfortunately, the way this league goes, it's not even a debate. You have to sign them and then kind of figure it out. And what are they figuring it out? They've had an incredible amount of success with these guys.

But over and over again in these playoff series, you know, it's always like these PJ Tucker, Draymond Green. There's always like some sort of alpha on the court that you can like PJ Tucker today who the stat line won't show it, but it was, it was a lot like what he did in, uh, in that game five with Miami last year. It was game five or game, game six, one, or game six? Game four, I think it was. But he had one of those games where he was just aggro. He seemed like he committed 30 fouls.

And he just put this macho imprint on the game and really was carrying himself like a bouncer in a bar. And I don't know when you have the makeup of Tatum and Brown and Horford and Brogdon and Derek White, these are all like nice guys. They're good, clean competitors. When was, when was the last time the Celtic team, I got in a shoving match or anything. I just, I watched play a basketball and at some point it turns a little street fighting. We watched this Phoenix Denver game today. There was like almost four moments in that thing where it assumed there was going to be a brawl.

And I just wonder sometimes, not to sound like sports radio-ish, but is this Celtics team a roll up their sleeves, ready to like throw back a couple punches team? Over and over again, like Draymond last year in the finals, that was another one in game two, remember? Who's the tough guy on this team?

Who is the, hey man, we're not going down like this guy? Sometimes it doesn't seem like they have it. Well, Marcus Smart is more of a flopper than he is an aggressor in the sense that you're talking, right? Right. I mean, I think like with P.J. Tucker, you're right about the game that he had against Brown. He defended him virtually the entire game.

There was this one player I remember in the first half, maybe it was mid-late second quarter, where Jalen Brown kind of coming off a cross screen across the court and tucker kind of just leans into him and brown you know extends his arm bumps him off and gets called for an offensive foul and that was kind of a just a culmination of you know a quarter and a half a whole half of of pj tucker just constantly in his grill bothering him fighting through screens touching him off ball just agitating him and like that's that's the type of stuff you're talking about like the celtics needing somebody like tucker and i think for even in that last game right the game four the sixers the sixers blow a lead in the fourth quarter i think these past sixers teams

would have lost that game but pj PJ Tucker comes up big with some offensive rebounds some timely defensive plays and he's the type of guy speech he did this speech with Embiid yes the intensity like that like that's like the new Draymond Kevin Durant meme like with him yeah it was yelling in his ear it's like PJ Tucker's one of those guys who can swing your fortunes ever so slightly in your favor with all those plays that even happen over the course of the game or in big moments in fourth quarters and overtimes. And even like Milwaukee had Bobby Portis, right? Every playoff team has kind of a guy like that. For the Lakers, this is crazy, but it's LeBron. LeBron is like, especially at this point of his career, he's just physically imposing.

He has control over the entire surroundings. He's working the refs. It's really funny, especially being there in person last night. There's a call he doesn't like. He knows exactly how to argue it and then side-eye the ref. And he does the look back five seconds later. And then five seconds later, the disappointed third look back at the ref. And he's constantly working everybody. He's in control of the surroundings. That's one thing it feels like this Celtics team

is really missing without Emei Doka. And you did a tweet today about that as that game was falling apart about no Emei this year. And Emei was kind of about about no email this year. And email was kind of the the tough guy on last year's team, even though he was the coach. He you know, this was a guy eight games into the season was ripping Tatum and Brown, you know, and it wasn't just that they had a great coaching staff last year. Will Hardy was the lead assistant.

He he got stolen by Utah. He was awesome. Missoula was, I think, the number lead assistant. He got stolen by Utah. He was awesome. Missoula was, I think, the number four assistant. Damon Stoudemire was there too. And he was like the older kind of player guy. The coaching staff got decimated and they never really addressed it, especially after Stoudemire went to Georgia Tech. So you have this guy, Missoula, who's learning on the job. I'm really trying to be nice because I think he's a nice guy. I'm rooting for him. But he's been completely overwhelmed and overmatched. But it's not just the strategy stuff. It's the working the refs during a game stuff, right? You have to

have some sort of presence that I'm not sure he has yet. And nobody else on the team has it either. So when you watch a game like today where things are, it's a must-win game. It's a 2-2 series. And things are slipping away. And it's like, who's the guy? Who's going to step up? Who's going to do it? And Tatum statistically had a good game,

but he's missing that. It's basically, it was like his stats. It was for him, but he's not like a, like a collector, right? He's like somebody like Jokic tonight, everything's running through him. Like, it's not fair to compare Tatum to Jokic. Jokic is the best player in the league, but everything's running through Jokic. You're never out of the game for more than two plays because he's going to create something. And with the Souths, it's just kind of, it turns into your turn, my turn, jacking up shots. And that's not going to win. Which is where Udoka, to your point,

he was kind of that representation for them coming from the sideline. Like, Mazzullo, was he even on the front of the bench? I think he was on the second row, right? I don't think he was up front. And I think with him, it's the type of thing. It's not like Mazzullo can't become a really good coach. Like, Spoh in the Heels days, people thought Spolstra was the weakness of the LeBron, Wade, Bosh teams. And he's now considered one of the best coaches in the league for now 10 plus years, longest time, yada, yada.

It's not like Missoula can't become a good coach. It's just considering where this team has been in recent years with the heights they've reached, the amount of success that they've had. It just feels like a 34-year-old rookie head coach. Maybe this is too much, too soon, wrong place, wrong time for him. And it's understandable. Four years younger than the starting center on the same team. I mean, it's something else.

I mean, were you hearing the same things last summer when Will Hardy left? I had people around the league saying, hmm, this is a loss for boston like he's been he was integral to their game to game rotations in-game adjustments and they're like okay yeah you don't hear those things you never know like how true it might be but you you know you feel confident about that he's going to be a good coach and then he's amazing with utah and then udoka's gone for you know the reasons that he was. And suddenly, the whole staff is

gone. The main guys. Right. And you're patching it together in the season. That's why people were making fun of me last summer because I was going nuts about the Will Hardy thing. Danny sat courtside for one of those finals games and noticed, I think the same thing my dad had been saying that whole year. It's like, this guy Will Hardy is amazing.

He's almost the co-coach of the team team and he didn't miss a trick. And one of the great things about the Celtics last year was they really never missed a trick. It was always like, Hey, two for one. Hey, use the time out here instead of the, like they were always on it. And Will Hardy was a big reason why. And that, you know, my dad who he sits, I don't know, maybe 20, 20 feet behind the Celtics bench and is a big body language guy. I've, you know, my dad who he sits, I don't know, maybe 20, 20 feet behind the Celtics bench and is a big body language guy. I've learned a lot of my body language stuff. You learned the ways of scouting. He was the first guy I'd heard who was like, I don't know about this Missoula. I'm like, really? We're like, we're like 10 and one. He's

like, I don't know. Hey, you gotta go to the games You got to see it. I'm like, what are you talking about? We're the best record of the league. I don't know. There's, he just, he kind of seems like he got picked out of the crowd to coach the team. And he seems like he's the same age as most of the players. And it's just feels so different than last year. And then when the strategy stuff started happening, that was when my dad was like, oh my, you know, he'd be texting me from the games. Like, oh my God. You kind of know when your team doesn't totally have it from either a preparation or adjustment. The big thing with him is just his inability to ad lib during games, which I keep pointing out. You know, like they tried to do it today, right? And the Sixers

are ready. They tried to push the ball in the first quarter and really tried to do this crazy pace. But the problem was they weren't playing defense. So the Sixers were just matching shots and gaining confidence. And that kept going. I want to keep going on this. We got to take a quick break, but we got to talk about, there's one Missoula piece that really concerns me. Visit Fandle.com slash BS right now during the NBA playoffs and you can place a $5 bet and you'll get an instant $150 back in bonus bets. Win or lose. That's what happens with us in Fandle. We have Coast Bias guys are on there as well. Check out FanDuel TV. You can also check out my Wednesday same game parlor that I always do that I put up on my Twitter feed. Except this week, it's not going to be on Wednesday.

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It's on Prime. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too.

You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. Here's the bigger thing with the Missoula thing, because they make the finals last year and it's almost a year too early in the sense that, wow, I thought this was going to be a year. I didn't realize it was going to be this year. We'd be in the finals. I remember comparing it to then 1996 Patriots, which had

this really talented team that felt like it was a year away and all of a sudden they were in the Super Bowl. And then you assume, oh, we'll be back. And the next year, that Pats team, they lose. I think the first round and then it quickly fell apart. I'm not saying that's going to happen with the Celtics team. But there is a title window piece to this where last year it felt like they were going to steal the title, right? Because of Middleton's situation and it felt like Milwaukee was headed for back-to-back,

they somehow get by Milwaukee. Then they survived this incredible Miami collapse where they're up, what, 14 with three and a half minutes left to almost lose the game. It comes down to a Jimmy Butler three. And then against the Warriors, it felt like after game one, oh my God, we actually could steal the title here. And then Curry became Curry. They lose in six, but it's like, all right, this is good. Well, who's better than the Celtics this upcoming year? Nobody's better.

There's teams that are as good. And then the season goes along and you're like, whoa, the West is a mess, right? Milwaukee, something seems a little off with them. Philly looks okay, but the Celtics have the most talent and Milwaukee loses in round one. And you think, well, the season fucking parted. They're going to play the winner of the Heat and Knicks.

Just have to get by the Sixers team and beat us a bad knee. Now they're down 3-2. And if it doesn't happen this year, I just think the, I don't know if you're going to have a better chance than you had last year and this year, especially with the salaries, with the way they were able to stack stuff, with the Jalen's only making 25 million, the CBA is changing. You might get stale with this nucleus, which we're going to talk about in a second, but I really worry about the title window, KOC. I think even though these guys are

young, isn't that fair to be like, holy shit, are we missing our window completely here? I mean, they're young, but they've been around a long time and they've been through a lot of battles together. I think with Jalen Brown, you're nearing the point that you're near the end of his, like you said, his second deal. If he doesn't get the All-NBA, he could very well test for agency in 2024. Horford's older, right? He's 36 years old. He's going to be 37 next year.

And you've got Brogdon over 30. He's getting picked apart on defense by Philadelphia. Marcus Smart, not the same right now this year on defense as he was last year. He already won defensive player of the year. He's fallen off a bit now at 30 years old. Like, there's age for certain players, and there's free agency for others. I think for Boston, it's definitely a case where maybe this core's window is shutting. It's now just a matter of how do they pivot this core to extend it into the future?

Because we don't know what's going to end up happening with Jalen Brown at this point, whether he leaves, wants to go, or just ends up inking a super max contract. And whether that is value or not remains to be seen. I love Jalenalen brown but he's you know the 15th to 20th best player in the league he's not a top five top 10 guy and when you're paying that enormous amount of money that changes things under the new cba where if you enter into now with this new cba if you're a luxury luxury tax team that's seven million dollars over you have your typical penalties but if you're 17 and a team that's $7 million over, you have your typical penalties.

But if you're $17.5 million over at this point, the second apron that they installed, you can't trade, pick seven years into the future. You can't do sign-in trades. You can't give up cash and deals and so on and so forth. There's a long list of penalties. For Boston, that's where you enter. That's true for Milwaukee. That's true for Milwaukee. That's true for Golden State. It's true for potentially Boston.

A lot of teams around the league where when the money gets that big, it really limits your ability to use exceptions. Like you can't use your taxpayer mid-level exception to sign players. You're limited to minimums. It's restrictive. So I think for Boston, they're one of those teams in those buckets where it's a pivot point where it could extend, but maybe you have to take a slight step back as well.

Yeah. And I guess that then you're thinking, what's our core? What's our ceiling? Can Tatum be somebody who's a connector in the way that somebody like Jokic is? What is he? Is he at that top level or is he right underneath? We're still talking about that on Sunday. Is he just kind of right underneath that 1B level, not a 1A? Might be. Might be. And the Jalen piece, as we've discussed on this pod a few times, ever since the KD trade rumors, it's never felt totally right.

There's been breadcrumbs dropped all over the place. Our own, our guy, Logan Murdoch, we're a great feature about him. There's been a couple weird interviews with him now. And even like during the series where he had that, a little bit of a dig about usually when the balls in my hands, good things happen or whatever. We talked about how he didn't have any shots in OT.

Offense wasn't the issue in that game, though, I didn't think. No, I agree. Well, if he had just stayed on Harden, at least it would have gone to the last shot in the overtime. I don't think... I think Jalen's here, and I think they're going to pay him. And I think they're going to figure it out after they pay him a year later.

I think short term, if this team gets bounced on Thursday, it might be the end for the smart era. And Robert Williams would be the other one that I think has got a really tradable contract. He's been a huge disappointment, huge in the playoffs. Not the same guy. He's not on defense. My dad's claims, he went

to a game like four weeks ago and he hurt his knee again and that they're not being honest about it, but he doesn't look even 50% as impactful, right? He's not like the flying around crazy Robert Williams anymore. He still does these basic, basic,

basic, you know, he'll have this great defensive possession and then he'll let up for a second. All of a sudden, his guy's shooting a wide open 15 footer and you're like, why did you stop playing? You just played hard for eight seconds and then the last two seconds you gave up an open jumper.

My, you know, he's got a tradable contract. I wonder if they would try to trade those guys together. Smart has a hold over this team that we talked about on Sunday. And I don't even know if it's totally his fault, but the ball always seems to find him in the biggest moments. It just does. You think about that game seven against Miami last year. Just over and over again, he was taking the right shot.

It was a wide open shot. But I also didn't want him to take it. And it might be one of those situations where he's underqualified for the role he thinks he should have, but he's kind of overqualified for the role that he probably should have. So my guess is that that would be somebody this summer.

But again, they could win on Thursday and they could win this weekend and all of a sudden they'd be the favorites to make the finals again. Right? Sure. I mean, Doc Rivers has blown three,

three, one leads in his coaching career. He's blown three, three, two leads in his coaching career and five other one Oh two Oh, or two one leads. It's not like he's been up before and hasn't blown leads. It's just none of those have happened against a rookie head coach.

I like for the Celtics here with Missoula. Like we're talking about some of his weaknesses. It's also, like you said, Rob Williams, something definitely is up. He has explosive moments, but he's playing only... The proof is in the minutes per game. He's playing 25, 30 minutes against the Warriors in the finals. He's ending last season playing 30 plus minutes per game over the last couple of months. He is not... he was hurt this year he's playing 15 20 minutes per game they're clearly limiting him purposely like this isn't this is like that's the all the evidence you need compared to his use of 19 minutes today yeah i mean it's it goes without saying like with the minutes and never mind like when you really watch the effort waiver for him

um so i mean they have some limitations there. I think we also do have to give Philly some credit here too, Bill. No, we're going to do that. Can we save that? Let's just return to the Celtics. I have a lot to say about the Philly piece of it. Yeah, I guess

I only had one other Celtics-related point. Grant Williams? No. Eight minutes too many? No? I was at that Laker game last night and I was thinking, there's a real chance now that the Celtics might play the Lakers in the finals.

And they are a way smarter team than the Celtics at this point. And I just feel like LeBron is going to undress them. And deep down, I'm thinking like, that would be the worst if the Celtics lost to the Lakers in the finals.

I actually, that might be it. I might move, might be living with Joe Rogan in Austin or I might be moving to South Dakota. I may be out. That might be done. The Lakers beat the Celtics again in finals. I'm gone. I South Dakota. I may be out. That might be done. I might be, the Lakers beat the Celtics get in finals.

I'm gone. Leave it LA. Come on. And I was just like, I don't want to go into that series, you know, with a butter knife

and a knife fight. You know, I want to go in with a team like I completely trust and I don't trust the Celtics team because I, I think the Lakers now, now those guys,

one of those guys could get hurt tomorrow, but they made it 10 games with those two guys upright and healthy. And at this point it's, I still think Denver is the best team, but the Lakers, it certainly could see where they make it. But yesterday I was in a dark place and I'm thinking like,

oh my God, the Celtics are going to like stumble into the finals and the stupid Laker team's going to be waiting for them. And, and that's it. Celtics Lakers would be pretty awesome if be waiting for them. And that's it. Celtics-Lakers would be pretty awesome if we get that, though. That would be incredible.

LeBron versus the Celtics. Unless the Celtics lose. Jack Nicholson waving the yellow Laker 86-year-old Jack. I was just thinking of all the terrible things, ways that could go. Anyway, all right. Yeah, let's talk about Philly. One of the great, I would say the best win of the Embiid era, right?

Oh, yeah, for sure. He was unbelievable. Contesting everything around the basket. He was unbelievable. I mean, I love the play where he had a turnover on offense. He kind of sloppily handled the ball, and then he hustled back on a block and transition, chased down. Then it races back on offense he kind of sloppily handled the ball and then he hustled back on a block and transition

chased down then it races back on offense gets the ball at the elbow draws a foul it was just like one of those quintessential next play mentality moments for him and i i thought he was very impressive throughout the whole series coming back from injury but like you wouldn't really know that he's hurt the way he's playing right now. Was he hurt? That's coming up next. He's definitely not as hurt as they made it seem like he was. They were like,

yeah, this is a second degree, whatever. And it's a four to six week injury. He looked fine as he was jumping over the basket to block Jalen Brown on a breakaway. There was a real mental toughness with that team today. It's like Maxie had it Harris. I've never seen Harris with the eye of the tiger like that.

Harden played a really smart... At first, it seemed like, oh, this is a James Harden no-show game. He was fine. He did enough, and Embiid was awesome. And Embiid put his imprint all over that game. There was an aura. He took the crowd out early,

and he was the best guy in the game. Yeah, he's unbelievable. I mean, that Harden and Bede pick and roll has been outstanding together, too. I mean, Boston, we already talked about their lack of adjustments. They're just running that pick and roll on the left side of the floor, getting Bede wide open opportunities,

him getting touches for a pull-up at the elbow or a drive from the elbow, or he can make passes out of that area. They've just been absolutely outstanding. And Harden is, I mean, he was not good in games two and three after a sensational game one, then game four, but he has really found himself in this series right now. And I feel like with him, I looked at his numbers after the game. He's averaging three mid-range shots per game in this series, which is double what he did during the season.

In past years, he didn't take any, so it's triple what he did in past years. It's nice to see Harden utilizing that mid-range to make himself a threat with those little pull-ups, more floaters um it's i i feel like harden has redefined himself in different ways throughout the season first as a

pass first guy and now you're seeing him do that by you know bringing back the mid-range like he did in the early days at oklahoma city and you know he's hitting the game-winning three-pointer in the corner you know he's he's doing stuff that three-pointer in the corner. He's doing stuff that he hasn't done in the past with the catch and shoot, the pull-ups. It's just cool to see a guy redefine himself at this stage of his career. I'd kind of give it up on this Philly team as a title contender,

but you think the game Harden played in game four and then the game Embiid played in game five. Those guys are on the same team. They have enough with the role players that I think they can get by. They played House today. I was wondering where. I forgot he was on their team. He was good.

And he gave them some energy. But, you know, they can patch. If they're going to play the big two big minutes and they can keep Harris out of foul trouble, Tucker is what he is. They put Tucker on. It seemed like on Jalen. I don't know what the stats are game to game, but it seemed like he was on Jalen more than usual,

really trying to, you know, Jalen can't dribble. He's the best player in the league. And, uh, and Tucker was just right at, right up on him trying to get him to make mistakes. But, um, I think if you're the Celtics, you go back to that game one where there's no Embiid and Harden's feeling it. But Harden at this point in his career just shouldn't be able to run a mock like that.

They weren't trying to, you know, they weren't hounding him with the ball from the moment he got it all the way up the court. They weren't trying to put any miles on him. Again, to go back to that LeBron game yesterday, it became clear during that Warriors

game because Klay was just out of it, didn't have it. And Poole, which we'll talk about when we do our Warriors segment, he became unplayable. That was really it. So it was like Curry or bust. And Curry, he was doing all this creative stuff with his passing. And he was like just a one-man show. And at some point, the Lakers figured out like, we've just got to wear this guy down. If we can wear him down, we're going to win because that's all they have. Why wouldn't the Celtics have done that in game one against Harden? Like, this is all they have.

Like, let's wear him down. Let's keep running pick and rolls and putting him, you know, defending people like on an island. Let's keep him down. Let's keep running pick and rolls and putting him, defending people like on an island. Let's keep pressuring him 90 feet and just let's, this guy's out of shape. Let's wear him down. They did the opposite. Yeah. I mean, to Harden's credit, they're not attacking him, so they're not wearing him down. But when he has been involved in actions, he's done a solid job. Off ball, he's taken some charges, putting his body on the line. On ball, he's competing. He's fighting on the defensive boards. So he's putting in effort. I wonder if that has

anything to do with their reluctance. But to your point, it's more about the philosophy of wearing a guy down over the course of a game and making things harder on him. And even in that same Warriors-Lakers game, the Warriors are attacking AD play after play after play. The way the Lakers responded to that was like, okay, we're going to let AD rest on offense because we need him on every single defensive possession. So they didn't involve him in offensive possessions. He's just standing around the baseline

because with 30 seconds left, he needs to switch out onto Stephen Curry and defend him twice. It's for those moments to save that fuel. So I feel like Boston hasn't done enough of that against Harden either. Mizzou is listening to this going, wait a second. So where down the other team? Oh, that's interesting. Maybe I'll try that game six.

We got to mention mention the Harden thing and I hate the and I'm probably at least a little responsible for it, the legacy talk. But Harden, I just given up on. I literally given up on him as a responsible playoff player. It just seemed

like it was going to be part of his legacy to the bitter end. It was a great regular season guy. You can't count him on him in the playoffs. As I say this, he might absolutely suck in game six and game seven. It'll be this devastating Sixers loss, and it'll just be the James Harden thing again. But at least what he's shown in these playoffs,

now he's in a free agent year. It doesn't erase some of the stuff that's happened in the past, but I've been really impressed. now he's in a free agent year. You know, he's, it doesn't erase some of the stuff that's happened in the past, but I've been really impressed. I really have. I didn't think he still had this in him at this stage of his career. And I didn't, didn't even know if he had it in him period.

Yeah. I mean, I think the hardened stuff, I mean, I know he's had some terrible moments, but he has a true shooting percentage of 57.6 in closeout games in his career. Kawhi Leonard is 56.8. True shooting percentage is not an end-all, be-all stat,

but I just throw that one number out there to say that despite some terrible moments that he's had, it's not like he has not produced in those games. It's not like he hasn't averaged nearly 30 points per game and you know seven straight post seasons with the rockets a hardened defense yeah i mean i've always been a hardened guy i just what a zag i think i think the treatment of heart in the postseason is is absurd he's had some choke moments but he's also had some brilliant moments throughout and he is also part of the only team that really went toe-to-toe with the Warriors that went to a game seven and went to a game six.

I mean, yeah, he lost to the Warriors. All right. Who didn't? I mean, you know, I just think with Harden, he's just somebody who has his flaws. There's definitely maybe some missing pieces that holds him back from that, you know, level of greatness that we want him to reach. Maybe he's not that, but it's not like he hasn't been a dominant player for former averaging 28 points,

seven assists, six rebounds over 10 straight years. 2015 against the Clippers was rough. He's had some rough moments. There's been some really rough finals. There's been some bad ones. He's had some bad ones. I will acknowledge that. There's been some really rough finals. There's been some bad ones. He's had some bad ones. I will acknowledge that.

That's true. Who do you think needs the Philly playoff run more, him or Embiid? That sounds like a first take subject question. I actually think

because Embiid is a little younger and probably has more in him for Harden. This might be it, especially if he leaves Philly after the year and goes to Houston. Who knows? That team may never be good.

I think Harden needs it more for that exact reason. Harden, at this point, he's 33 years old. He'll be 34 next season. He's definitely on the decline. He doesn't have the same burst or explosiveness around the basket. It's not even close to what he once was.

So this for Harden could be his real last opportunity. Maybe he has a couple more in him, but at this stage of his career, it's a lot to expect more from him. Whereas Embiid, I mean, look, you can talk about hypothetical injuries for a 7-footer, a 300-pound guy, but he just had the best season of his entire career and now we now that now that he got his mvp chris ryan mentioned this to me a couple weeks back maybe now that he got his mvp we'll see some pacing from him over the course of a regular season to store

that energy for the playoffs like we just saw from yokich last two months he's just not trying on defense the nuggets are definitely waving the flag there And now you're seeing them turning up on that end. So maybe you see that from Embiid in future years. So he's got time. Chris Ryan making excuses for Philly athletes, as always. Just classic Chris Ryan. Embiid, 33, seven rebounds, four blocks, and a pretty memorable block on Jalen Brown.

The hustle block was, that will be, that was awesome. If there's the montage of him adding into the finals, they'll definitely show that one from a couple of different angles. Okay. We, did we,

we hit that hard enough, right? Philly, Boston. Can we go to the other conference? I think the, I think the Maxie expert, you mentioned Harris with his effort.

Maxie had a great game too. I mean, you know, Daniel house. Yeah, we covered that. I think the docie X-Factor, you mentioned Harris with his effort. Maxie had a great game too. I mean, you know, Daniel Howes, yeah, we covered that, I think. The Doc Rivers redemption. I thought Doc was going to be joining the ringer in like two months, but now maybe he's going to still coach. Is he really a potential target for us, him and Austin? We have the rest of the family.

We have Cali, we have Austin, we got to get Doc. All right, we're going to take a break. We'll talk about the West. What does possible sound like for your business? It's the ability to reach further with access to over 1400 lounges worldwide redefined possible with business platinum. That's the powerful backing of American express terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too.

Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Life and death were two very realistic

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It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning. Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit CAMH.ca. Phoenix Denver, did you learn anything? Because I went into it thinking, I don't think anyone's going to beat Denver at home in the West in the playoffs.

And nobody's beaten Denver at home in the West in the playoffs. They are now 5-0. And pretty, pretty, pretty brutal to play against there. And Jokic is a cheat code. And what they get two bench guys going. But I'm just blown away by Jokic. I honestly, I think he's one of the best offensive players I've ever seen in my entire life.

I can't believe how fucking good he is and how he makes the right play every single time. It's unbelievable. He was so good. He just killed the Suns today. He's so special to watch. It's like no matter what type of shot he takes, it feels like there's like a 70%

chance it goes in. Heavily contested floater with a body against him in the mid-range going in. Leaning, you know, three-point shot off a pick-and-pop going in with his slow, deliberate release. Everything is perfect touch, whether it's shooting the basketball through the hoop, whether it's making a pinpoint pass to a cutter or a three-point shooter.

He is so, so special as an offensive presence man. It's crazy. And I think all the players around him, the way they coexist around him as him being the center of their solar system with Jamal Murray, the two-man game chemistry that they have, Michael Porter Jr. as the spark that he can provide as a scorer, Aaron Gordon with his cutting, Bruce

Brown. I mean, everybody on that roster, they've built a bunch of guys who know how to play off of Jokic. And that offense is just such a joy to watch. Yeah, that's like going back to the Celtics. Philly has a couple of plays, right? They can run that Embiid hard and pick and roll. They can just post up Embiid in the foul line by himself. They know they have those plays at all times. I still don't know what the plays are for the

Celtics. If anything, I probably like it. And I don't even know how many times I've done it this year, but when it's a Brogdon Tatum high screen with Brogdon as the dribbler using Tatum, I always feel like that's kind of unstoppable. And man, I don't even know if they've run it 20 times, but they don't. It's usually kind of Tatum ISO-y. That's why they have so much problems at the end of these games. Whereas you watch a team like Denver and it's not just the end of the games. It's always like they're up 10. The other team hits a three and then gets a hoop. They're down five. And you could just see Yoko's like, all right, guys, run this one through me. And he just gets like either a layup or he gets his own eight footer or he gets a three. And those are the three outcomes. It's a good shot every time. That's why I think they're going to be so tough in the playoffs. Even, I mean, in the next round against, if it's going to be the Lakers,

that's a really hard matchup for the Lakers with the way that they cut. You even saw Golden State with a team that is really kind of slumping offensively, still getting a bunch of easy baskets, right? Bunch of back cuts, pulling Davis away from the basket and then using his inability to kind of jump back and get there. Using LeBron, the fact that he doesn't really want to move because he shouldn't because he's year 20. He doesn't want to waste too much energy. Using all those things against him.

It's going to be death against Denver, I think. What do you think of that matchup, just hypothetically? So Denver, LA. I mean, I think for Los Angeles, they've proved a lot of skeptics wrong each stage of their season. You called it early. I was laughing when I thought you were doing just trying to get a social video. You were like, hey, Richie, I've got a good idea for a social video. Lakers. You were right. You nailed it. I still am perplexed by the reaction to me putting them sixth on my championship power rankings after the deadline.

I just think nobody felt like those two guys were going to stay healthy, which I think is fair. I mean, it was assuming that they stay healthy. I think that was part of it. If these guys stay healthy, this is the place that they're going to be in. They have a good chance to win the championship. And thus far, they are. But like you said, in passing passing there lebron definitely is not totally healthy i mean that that is clear you can really feel it in person too like even watching

walk off the court and stuff he doesn't watch watch lebron in like january or so yeah he had his burst and explosiveness there and at this point it's not there in the same way like there was a transition play that he had in that last game not there in the same way like there was a transition play that he had in that last game where like in the past he's a freight train getting into that spin move going to the rim and he just doesn't have that burst right now and whether he regains it or not who knows but in terms of that lakers nugget series i mean you have to favor the nuggets you just have to and then the home court too yeah with the altitude they have the home court they they have the best player in the series and yokich um like you have to favor them but i still think

with that lakers team bill i mean the reason why i was so high on them throughout you know like verno and i have disagreed on this but it's like it's manifested for them it's a different guy all the time like sometimes it's it was like lonnie walker. Like sometimes it's, it was like Lonnie Walker last night. Sometimes it's DLO. Sometimes it's Austin Reeves. Like in game one against Memphis, sometimes it's Rui. Sometimes it's LeBron.

Sometimes it's AD. Like they just have so many different guys who can generate offense off the dribble. Like you compare them to the Warriors, the Warriors, it's Steph. And that's pretty much it as your source of offense. Draymond can obviously

handle, but he's not a bucket getter. The Lakers have so many of those guys who can do that, and with Denver, they do have more. They have Jamal Murray. They have Michael Porter Jr. Even Aaron Gordon can attack a closeout to get to the basket. It's not like Bruce Brown can do that, too.

And Porter can pull up from anywhere. They have a know, Bruce Brown can do that too. Yeah, they almost don't need that. And Porter can pull up from anywhere. They have a bunch of guys who can do that. So that's where the Nuggets can close the gaps in ways that I don't think the Warriors are going to be able to in this series against the Lakers down 3-1. I was on a thread with a couple of Boston fans talking about how much we just despise

this Laker team. Even though we respect them. But just how despicable it is that game after game, another fucking random dude has an awesome game for them. Right? You were like,

it's a different guy every night. I'll go, they pull a fucking random guy out of their asshole every night who has 25 points. And one of my friends in the text said, this was what the late 90s Yankees were like, where it was like, oh, really?

This is the Scott Brocious hits a grand slam in the eighth inning game. And then the next game I was like, oh, okay. Here's, you know, the Darryl Strawberry went deep and it just didn't matter. But there was this next man up. Whose night is it going to be? Last night, the Warriors were like,

we're taking out D'Lo. We're putting GP on him. D'Lo, you're not having a good game today. And then, so the Lakers tried Rui. He didn't really have it. Schroeder was really kind of chasing around Curry. It wasn't going to be him. And

Lonnie Walker, the whole first half, he didn't do anything. I was sitting with a friend of mine and I was doing the Russillo joke about like, this is a total Tobias Harris game from Lonnie Walker, the whole first half, he didn't do anything. I was sitting with a friend of mine and I was doing the Russillo joke about like, this is a total Tobias Harris game from Lonnie Walker. I didn't realize he was out there for an hour. And then he gets to 15 in the fourth and all of a sudden becomes the best guy in the league. It does feel like when that starts happening during a basketball playoffs, like something magical might be happening, right?

Yeah. Like D'Lo, he was as happy as anybody and he was the hero two nights ago. When I see stuff like that, I'm like, oh my God, really? You and Verno talked about this today. Ham has a really good knack for knowing when to cut bait on

guys and try somebody else and then stick with somebody when you see something. I don't love some of the strategy stuff that they do, but I think his subs are really good. I've been impressed by him. Yeah, I mean, Ham's done a good job. He really has. I mean, like we're talking rookie

head coaches with Bazzola. I think Ham, over the course of the year, Lakers fans had some gripes about him with his decisions, his lineups, his rotations, but learning on the job. Yeah, I mean, the postseason, learning on the job, right? Like, he has figured some things out and pulled the right strings in this postseason.

And with a 3-1 lead, I don't see them blowing that. I just don't think the Warriors, you can never bury the Warriors. You can't bury Stephen Curry. They have a home game coming up. But winning three in a row against this Lakers team with the amount of success they've had in the postseason with LeBron and AD out there, with AD playing at the level that he is right now.

Unless injury occurs, I fail to see how the Warriors could. Whereas the Suns, maybe they get super hot in game six. Booker, he's off tonight, finally. He's only 8 of 19. Durant's only 10 of 24. Ter You know, Booker, he's off tonight. Finally, he's only 8 of 19. Durant's only 10 of 24. Terrible game, Booker. I mean, like, yeah, right? I mean, Durant was really the disappointment.

He's 10 of 24. Like, you need more from him on a night. Booker's not shooting 80% from the field. So I think maybe Phoenix gets another hot night and they force a game seven. But I don't think the Warriors are going to have that same level of luck that a team like Phoenix could. Because even in this game tonight, I mean, I need to rewatch it tomorrow,

but I didn't feel like the Nuggets made a heck of a lot of adjustments. They put Gordon on Booker slightly more. It's a sprinkle more of Aaron Gordon defending Devin Booker, like 25% of possessions rather than 10% of possessions according to the tracking data on second spectrum. You know what their adjustment was, KFC? Here was their adjustment.

Hey, Landry Shamit, you're not making those on the road. Hey, everybody else, none of you guys are making those. Now, I thought it was a pretty predictable. Yeah. Denver is going to win this, maybe even a little comfortably. But the way Phoenix is, when you have these two guys

that are putting up the Elgin Bale or Jerry West stats as a combo, can't rule them out, right? Especially at home in a game six. And then if it gets to game seven i don't know both guys could get hot i think denver's better but i i certainly wouldn't bet my life on phoenix not winning the next two games am i right to be underwhelmed by kevin durant in the series though i mean his numbers on the surface he's averaging 30.8 points 10.6 rebounds, 5 assists, shooting only 22.2% from three, only 46% from the field.

I feel like with KD, 24 shots per game, a night like this, they needed more from KD. Am I right to feel that way? 2016 KD, not like 2021 KD. Look, he's playing with campaign as his point guard. I know. And whatever the hell is going on with Aiton. And it's a new team. And he's a little bit older and he had two big injuries this year. He's definitely this is not a plus Durant. We saw I thought we're getting a plus Durant with the Nets before he got hurt that last time? Yeah. What was that, like, three-week stretch where he was just like, wow, this is like A-plus Durant. I don't think this is... This is like B-plus Durant. But does he have A-plus Durant in him?

You know? Like, we've seen flashes with Phoenix, even despite the injuries. It's not like he hasn't shown that at moments. Is Aaron Gordon that much of the KD stopper? I mean, if I was Aaron Gordon, I'd brag about it. Yeah.

Look at those KD stats, man. 42%. It's because of I was Aaron Gordon, I'd brag about it. Look at those KD stats, man. 42%. It's because of me, Aaron Gordon. I do think Denver is more competent defensively than they get credit for. Yeah. And it's Jokic who I think takes... Jokic is like Curry where he takes a ton of shit

for his defense. Curry last night, they attacked him that whole second half. I thought he did a pretty good job. Like, he was defending LeBron on post-ups. He defended like, I think, four of the Lakers. Lonnie Walker hit some really good shots at him, right? There was maybe one where he kind of dusted him, but for the most part, I thought Curry kind of held up. Like if you're just going to run all of your plays at one guy, like the guy's going to look bad on a couple of plays. Yoko, same thing for me.

Um, yeah, I don't, I don't feel like this. I wouldn't count Phoenix out, but I just think Denver's better and it would have to be another like 86 point combo kind of thing. Um,

in a game seven, maybe they'll win game six, but to win in Denver in a game seven, I think it's going to be, I think it's too tall of a task for a team that still feels like pretty new. We had to talk about the Warriors. I've been saving this one. Um, so I was, I was behind there. I was like about nine rows behind their bench last night. And I went to a bunch of the playoff games last year. I saw, I think every finals game in person,

except for of course the, the best one to go to, which was the Great Curry game. Something's way off with them. As you know, the body language doctor. I actually dressed up like a doctor to go to the Warriors game to officially be the body language doctor yesterday. The pool thing is really dark it's bad it's the second half of that game he had for part of it he had his hood over his head like he was wearing a hoodie and he just had

dead eyes he looked lost he looked completely checked out out of it bummed out like he lost his dog it looked like he was filming a music video and when he went in the first half, he's just unplayable. And he comes in and it's like, he's covered in barbecue sauce and the

Lakers are looking at him with forks and steak knives. Like let's attack that guy every time when he's driven. He's just, he's unplayable. And I think Kerr went with him as long as he possibly could. But now it's like, we're going to,, but now it's like we're going to be going home. If we don't win a couple of these games, we can't afford to play this guy anymore, so he's out. Klay, at this stage of his career, I just don't know what you're getting from him anymore, do you? It's like you can have the good Klay game.

He had a couple of those in the Kings, but yesterday they really needed him, and he couldn't do anything, right? So you have that. Draymond doesn't shoot. Wiggins, because he took all that time off, I just feel like they don't totally trust him. They weren't really running plays for him. And it was just all Curry.

And, you know, if you'd say like, oh, never bet against the heart of the champion, all that stuff, but I just don't see it. I really don't. I think they're going to either lose game five or lose game six because there's too much pressure on that dude. And as great as he is, and I think he's one of the greatest ever. I don't think he can beat this Lakers team by himself. Right.

They played Moody in crunch time. And the biggest play of this game, and I don't know if anyone talked about it, but it happened right in front of me. I noticed it. Probably like under two minutes left and they're trading punches. And Curry does that thing where he gets rid of the ball to Moody and he circles around,

but he comes back where Moody gets the ball and pretends he's going to dribble toward the middle, but then it's a little dump off back to Curry. And Moody didn't give him the dump off. And instead he like just kind of dribbled and he screwed up the play and it ended up, I think that might've been the play when Clay took the terrible shot. Um, but Curry was pissed and I, you never seen him get pissed. And he kind of quietly went

over to Moody. He's like, I'm supposed to get the ball, fucking ball back. I'm Steph Curry. Um, and I think if he had gotten the ball back, he would have made it. But the fact that Moody was out there, you talk about the DNA of the Warriors and how connected they are with Steph. And he's just, they always like know where he is and they know how to get in the ball. And it's like little plays like that, that are different about them this year than last year.

And then you take Poole, you just take him out, right? Do they beat the Celtics without, if Poole is this year's pool no way and then clay's clay's just not back to being clay and I just don't see it I don't think they have it there's definitely missing pieces bill for sure I mean I think this is the I mean they win the finals last year without the two timelines being really a factor with all the youth they won that off their their old regime you know the old the old guys who were part of the start of the dynasty um but i think at this

point you know after losing some guys you originally lose gary payton you know then you trade back for him jordan pool has regressed he plays a season low in minutes in that game four last night and like you said he's regressed a strong enough word? He's like Private Pyle in full metal jacket at this point. He's got like the dark eyelids almost. I honestly feel bad for him. I know. It's rough.

I mean, he got paid $128 million. Good for him. He earned that money last year with his progress. But yeah, I mean, he has fallen off a cliff right now when he looks lost out there. When he's not scoring and he's always been a streaky scorer, this year he's been streakier than ever. Like Jordan Poole has this reputation of a good shooter. I mean, for his career, he shoots 33.9% from three. He has never been a good shooter. He has had stretches where he's a good shooter. If he's not scoring, he's a sloppy

playmaker. He's an insignificant defender. He doesn't make those hustle plays. So for Kerr, where else are you going to get that from? Moody, like you said, the lack of chemistry. He's still a young guy. I like Moody. I mean, I think he should play even more. I'm a huge fan. You know what I loved about him? He was crashing the boards and he plays really hard. And that's why Kerr threw him out there. He's like, this guy's playing hard. He should play more. He should play 25, 30 minutes, I think, moving forward in the series as long as it goes, whether

it's one game or three more games. Looney is big and strong, too. He's tough. He unswitches. He can handle anybody. Super long. Do we know? I haven't seen anything reported about this. Do we know if Looney is still sick 11 minutes per game granted this might just not be the series for him but is he still sick do we do we know that for sure but you're not getting you're not getting the

contributions from those other guys moody pool looney d vincenzo off your bench like it feels like curs you know reaching for answers alongside curry and just not finding it because wiggins is so inconsistent clay's not providing it so where can you get it from and i think for the warriors they've almost kind of pulled out their last card they use gary peyton as the screener over and over again for stephen curry and it was working pretty well until the the lakers made the switch putting anthony davis on andrew wiggins and then yeah i i kind of get it like the the laker the warriors just didn't feel as comfortable with wiggins as a screener for curry and i think that's because it just doesn't work as well

wiggins isn't as good in that role as gary payton is gary payton is explosive as a roller he's good finishing off those roles whereas wiggins like isn't that type of player so i i kind of get them moving a little bit away from that but at the same time for the warriors i mean maybe you just gotta keep going with steph draymond pick and rolls regardless of who is defending draymond and and roll with that because it's not jared vanderbilt when he's playing 10 11 minutes per game it just feels like golden state's reaching in ways that they never did before in past years, including last year for that matter. And, I mean, also, guy's just going to be better.

Klay's going to be better, Bill, right? He just has to be better. The flip side of your Golden State is, like, we would have won that game, but fucking Lonnie Walker got super hot. You know, that was dumb. But that's part of it, though. We lost that game because of Lonnie walker i'm on your side i i think they're in a shitload of trouble and the thing that really would scare me if i was warriors fan so let's see they were playing

if you just go back into april and they they had all those games to try to get the plan positioning. Right. But then the actual playoff started on April 15th and they played seven games against the Kings and they've played four against the Lakers. And that's through May 8th. So basically in less than four weeks, they played 11 games and the 12th will be this next game, but they've been playing every two games,

every two days, basically for, you know, nearly a month. And Curry's the one who's starting to feel it. I, I thought last night, there was a couple of times like he hit a four point play and kind of the joy

came back. But to me, he, he looked like he was in like the 14th round, that whole game. And and in by the way davis and lebron in the second quarter looked completely exhausted lebron does this thing i don't know if people have noticed this but he just checks himself in and out he's like a hotel guest and does like i don't even think he checks with him when he comes in he's like i'm coming back

in now and he's like okay lebron second player of all time. You tell me when you want to get back in. But those guys looked a little tired too. And they're also in the grind of playing every other day. But I think for Curry, it's a disaster. And this pool thing, you know, we didn't even mention the Draymond punch, but that was how the season started. Everyone talked about it for two weeks, but pool hasn't been the same since it happened.

And it's really hard not to make the conclusion that that incident fucked up their season. Now there might've been more stuff with it. I don't know what's going on with, with, you know, the relationship of different teammates on, like I was watching even Kaminga yesterday.

Um, he was, he couldn't have been further away from the huddle in the fourth quarter without actually just sitting on Jim Goldstein's lap. Like he just was checked out. So there's, and then you read the stories about them after game six. Curry gives us some passion speech,

which he never talks to the team, but gives this whole speech before game seven of the King series. There's definitely some chemistry shit with this. And I felt it last night because I always have like, I've talked about this before, but Tim Duncan and the Spurs

were like the touchy-feely-est team I've ever seen. Just arms around each other at all times and the high fives and just like really connected. And I felt like the Warriors were kind of like that last year. They were a really connected team. They really pulled for each other.

And last night, they seemed like coworkers to me. They did not seem like a team in the same way. And that really jumped out. Whereas like the Lakers, I was talking to somebody who works for the Lakers for the game. And I was like, LeBron seems like he's in on this team. And the guy was like, yeah, he's in on this team. And he's like, thing with LeBron, he's either way out or he's way in. And there's never like an in-between. You know what he's way out, you know what he's way in. And he's like, he's been in ever are also selfless enough to defer to them as superstars, as all timers, LeBron is and

AD, one of the best players today, they're deferring to Austin Reeves, right? To Rui Hachimura, to Lonnie Walker, like you're deferring to these guys who are, you know, going to be memorable names for their own individual fan bases, but will get lost over the course of nba history in all likelihood right unless they become champions yeah this is what championship teams do and the character that they have it's why why they're so lovable for lakers fans and why they're so hated by like you a celtics fan by many others right because of that type of character that makes them both lovable and hateable whereas the warriors it's the utter opposite like you said it's you can observe it and like the quotes that trickle out of that locker room after that game four yeah all right that gave jordan pool who's like you know opportunity changes comingo last week was talking about it's tough to lock in it's tough to

smile when you don't know if you're getting those minutes and those opportunities it's's like, dude, you're still a young player. You got to understand your role and your positioning. In some respects, I get it because you look around the league and I'm sure some of your friends in your rookie class, they're playing, they're getting better, they're getting opportunities. You're not. But at the same time, there is benefits to learning and being part of a championship team like this you already got a ring like now you're part of this again your moment can come just like it came for Lonnie Walker there could be a moment for Kaminga if you stay ready and that's what made that Walker performance so special and why I feel like with this Warriors team like yes Jordan Poole you played 10 minutes

and you're complaining about a lack of opportunity that's because you failed every time you've gotten those chances yeah i i heard verno was talking what did verno say about being ready for your opportunity what was the tony allen quote uh i forget the exact quote off the top of my head he had some inspiring quote yeah verno like some people drop dr seuss or confucius verno drops tony allen t Tony Allen has a lot of great quotes from him. But it's funny, like, you know, my son, he played, not to bring my family into this, but my son played high school. He played football and lacrosse, right?

And you're younger, the coaches, they might lose trust in you for a game or a week or you missed a practice or you screwed up or whatever. And your minutes get yanked around. And I never really thought of it this way of like, cause my son would start some games and then other games, he didn't play that much. And we would talk in the car ride, like you just, you just gotta be ready. It's weird to just be like, I'm on the sidelines. I don't know if I'm going to play or not. I don't

know when I'm coming in, how to, how to lock in, how to concentrate, and just how to be ready. And it's almost its own skill, right? So when Lonnie Walker, who's barely playing in this series, but he's ready, whatever it is about, I don't know whether Darvin Ham's telling him or LeBron's telling him, like, hey, man, your time's going to come and you're ready for it. And he was fucking ready last night. It wasn't just the shots either. I thought he did some really good stuff defensively. He was making the right switches.

I've never been a big Lonnie Walker fan. Um, but you think about that versus like some of the stuff we've seen with the Warriors where, you know, Jordan pool 10 minutes last night, um, coming, I guess they just won't even throw out there anymore, you know? Um, but Moody was the guy who was ready. And Moody ended up, they leaned on him. So you just kind of never know with this stuff. But that's the rub of young players, young people. And as somebody who's been riding in the car home every once in a while with my son,

you know, you think like, that's probably Kamingo, right? On the phone with his girlfriend coming back from the bus. He didn't play me again. God damn it. I should be out there. I could have handled AD. But that's one of many reasons why I wouldn't want to coach a team. It's also the difference between Moody, who has stayed ready.

I mean, I think you could criticize Kerr and say, well, you can play those guys more over the course of the season and develop them develop them for those situations it's also possible those guys guys just aren't good you know camango just might not be ready for that spotlight at all he was a raw player coming in out of the g league he has shown his warts with his opportunities he's shown his potential on defense but offensively he's not yet. But Moody has not gotten those consistent opportunities, and now that he is, he does look like he's ready for those chances. Despite that hiccup you mentioned at the end of the game,

with under two minutes left, besides that, I feel like he is flying around on defense, showing his length, crashing the boards, he's hitting some shots, making timely cuts. He feels like a guy who has managed to stay ready throughout. showing his length, crashing the boards. He's hitting some shots, making timely cuts. He feels like a guy who has managed to stay ready throughout. That's the difference between him and Kaminga and Poole. Poole, if you're not scoring, you just got to find other ways to impact the game.

And maybe he just doesn't have that in him. Maybe he just doesn't have that quality, that ability to read the floor on defense and to be in the right place at the right time. It's not like everybody can defend just by trying hard. He just might not have that. But you still got to find ways to impact the game without scoring, especially when you're playing next to Stephen Curry.

The guy that they needed, who was ironically available, was like an Eric Gordon type guy. Yeah. That's what I was thinking about that last night, like that, that one more shooter. And I guess the Vincenzo technically could be that for him, but it doesn't feel like they 100% trust him. Um, and I'm not positive why, because I think he's had some good moments for them, but for the most part, like that, the spacing that he gives them and he kind of knows how to cut and move the ball. But I wonder in game six,

maybe we'll see more, but it does feel like this really feels like this tomorrow night could be the end of the line. Well, by the time people listen to this, it'll be tonight, but this is such a fascinating Warriors home game. Cause this could be it,

you know? And then you think like Clay, 43 million, I think for player option, he's taken that, um, Draymond, who's at 27, whether he decides to re-up or not, but, um, and then whatever the follow it, cause you know, there's going to be, the season's going to end, right? What is Brian Curtis called? The now they told us feature. Yeah. The notebooks will empty after this season. Oh, for sure. The Warriors beat has got a lot to empty out.

Oh, yeah. There's some stuff will be coming out of the vaults. The Paul Draymond thing, it just feels like there's more meat on that bone. Oh, yeah. In a whole bunch of different ways. Do you think they made a mistake? Do you think they made a mistake thinking that that was going to fade away?

I think they made a mistake probably paying Poole what they did. Because they didn't have to. I mean, yeah, they didn't have to. And I mean, it's not like you can trade Draymond at that point. Values low. He's your energizer.

He's your leader. he's still one of the best defensive players in all of basketball and could you have traded pool maybe but i think the thing where we disagree with pool as you say it went all downhill since the draymond punch is it possible it actually went all downhill last may last j, his minutes dwindled every single round in the postseason. He's getting 35 minutes per game, then 28, and then 26. And then in the finals, he's playing 14, 15 minutes per game later in the series. He became more and more unplayable round by round last year in the playoffs for Steve Kerr because of these same weaknesses that we're talking about with the streaky shooting, the lack of defense, the sloppy playmaking. I think it all started at last year with the

pool decline. And that's where they pay him. But people around the league, anybody who covers the game or people who work in the league have been like, eh, maybe this is worth it because with pool's youth, he's only 23 years old. Maybe he keeps ascending up, but that just hasn't happened. And I think that all kind of started last year after what looked like a great second half of the year when I thought he was tremendous. He was great to finish the second half of the season.

But we haven't seen that for a year now. It's tough when you're like the rich man's irrational confidence guy, but you've lost your confidence. It is tough. You can't,

it turns out, I checked, you can't be an irrational confidence guy, but not be confident. It just doesn't work fundamentally. Does that just make you irrational? Part of being rationally confident. Yeah.

You're just, you're just irrational. Yeah. You're not supposed to have the hood, hoodie over, over your head. Just kind of looking glazed. I felt so bad for him last night. And the other thing is it, it, you know, Iguodala seems like he's got this outsized importance for them. Um, as I don't even know what he is. He's

not a coach cause he's still on the roster, but he seems like kind of the, the glue guy on the, on the bench for the younger players. But for the most part, again, I just felt like I was watching coworkers. And it did feel like that. I just wonder what happens to Curry now because he got his fourth title. It seemed like it was set up for one more run here. And then if it doesn't happen, I'm not really sure what the move is. And they're really handicapped by that clay contract.

And I don't know what the move is and they're really handicapped by that clay contract and i don't know what the move is i wish i did if they do lose is it time to reshuffle everything around you go and blow it up on me no no no no no because no because steph is still you know even though he's 35 years old he he might be better than he's ever been i mean he is still a spectacular talent you don't you're not trading stephen curry you can still win with him sorry are there ways they're never trading stephen curry i was just like how about everything else everything else i i said this before they won the title i keep everything on the table besides stephen curry i think you have that urge you have to have that urgency around steph with special he is. And plus, it's California.

There's a lot of players who would want to come play with Steph and Curry, a lot of great talents who would. And if you bide your time correctly, perhaps you could land one of them through free agency. So if you don't want to pay Clay and if you don't want to pay Draymond, maybe taking a step back for a year isn't the worst thing in the world. I think the Warriors need to have a long view there, as long as Steph is willing to buy into whatever that plan might be.

Rob Williams and Marcus Smart for Draymond and Kaminga? Draymond is actually the guy in the Celtics need. Everything we talked about earlier. I don't know. I was coming to... Would Draymond and Clutch be happy about going to Boston, though? No, they'd throw their bodies in front of me. I was trying to figure out a Marcus and Rob Williams together package,

which, by the way, I'd like to celebrate. It's my ninth straight year of going on the trade machine with Marcus Smart and looking around. I really do like him. I just feel like I actually just want to see him on another team now where he's maybe not with the ball most of the time in the biggest

spots of the game. Yeah, I don't know what the Warriors do. I do... I would sincerely doubt Draymond's on the team next year because I think that's the only real move you can make by shaking it up. How real is that Dallas thing, Bill? You said Dallas for Draymond about a month ago.

I did. Is that? I just don't. On paper, forgetting any intel, I just don't see Dallas. I don't know. Detroit, maybe? I mean, it depends what he wants. Four rings.

Send him home. If Dame stays in Portland, is there a way for him to get there? Maybe. There's always been those rumblings of Portland teaming up with Dame. Is there a Cleveland possibility? Cleveland's interesting.

Like a little Jared Allen? Yeah, like flip those guys. Something else? Like some type of trade. How about, I mean, would he want to go to the Lakers? I don't love the fit. LeBron, Draymond. No, you don't need him. They kind of know who they are with Davis and LeBron and some small guys. I agree.

I totally agree, but like, you know, the clutch factor perhaps they could push for that. Clippers maybe. Clippers would would be interesting there's not a lot how about phoenix phoenix like they're missing i mean if katie and draymond could they get together again reunite so an eight and thing would you would you yeah an eight and thing would you bite on eight and i'd get rid of them would you bite on eight and if i'm golden state but if you're another team if you're another team no no I don't think he's no just just a strong no no I don't think Aiton's good I mean that he said

he said it before his career began my goal is to get to my second contract and everything he's proven since that that he wasn't lying I meanly, the level of effort and focus is not what it was prior. You compare this version of Aiton to their run to the finals. It's like a totally different guy. And that's so disappointing to see because of the potential that he has. And also, I think at this point, when I interviewed James Jones for an article about the Suns maybe two years ago, three years ago, I don't remember when it was exactly, but he's like, you know, for Aiton, we need him to be patient with his offensive development. But someday as Chris Paul ages and these guys get older, we're going to need him to be more of a post presence and have them need to be more of a three-point shooter. He has not

gotten better as a post presence. He's not gotten better as a three-point shooter. He's not gotten better as a passer. So for Aiton at this point, with the money he's making, I wouldn't want to bet on him if I'm another team at all. So no. Knicks? Mitchell Robinson and the Fournier expiring?

Oh, for Draymond? No, for Aiton. Oh, hell no. If you're the Knicks now? No. Yeah, I went through the possible Aiton teams Oh, hell no. If you're the Knicks now? No. Yeah, I went through the possible Aiton teams and I kind of ran out of teams pretty fast. It's tough to pay somebody $30 million.

Maybe it'll be Aiton for Jordan Poole. I mean, Aiton in that Warriors offense, good luck, man. I would hope it works out. Wow, you're out. I used to be one of Aiton in that Warriors offense, good luck, man. I would hope it works out for him. Wow, you're out. I mean, I used to be one of Aiton's only supporters.

I liked Aiton in the early days. I was like, oh, yeah, he's making progress on defense. This is different than the guy we saw in Arizona. Cerruti won't take him in Orlando. I don't know who's left. How about Dallas? He needs somebody. The secret in Phoenix, what I heard for years, was that Booker knew the buttons to push with Aiton, to keep him motivated, to keep him hustling and

focused and trying hard. I think that everything's run out. The relationship with Monty Williams has frayed. I think everything that used to work has lost its power. So he needs somebody that can continue to push him and motivate him. Maybe a L in dallas somebody like that maybe it's a coach maybe you know it's somebody an assistant coach whoever it might be i think that's what he needs and like that a fresh start could be good for him despite everything i'm saying i think he needs a fresh start outside of phoenix i just don't know where is, what team I'd feel super comfortable with considering everything that he said pre-career and everything we've seen since he signed that deal. Well, if the Celtics do trade Marcus Smart, I promise you about two months into the next season when they don't have him anymore,

I'm going to be like, God damn it. I love Marcus Smart. Why'd they trade him? Marcus is really that type of guy. I love that guy. I really miss him. I know. Marcus is that type. I mean, he's so frustrating at times, but he's just got something about him. I do love that guy. He's got that impact. Remember they used to talk about Hakeem, Big Man Camp? Oh, yeah, yeah.

And they did send people down there for three days. Have them post up? No, I wish they could send them to Kyle Lowry Camp. And Kyle Lowry can just teach him these extra little things to do to assert your weird presence on a game. Because Marcus is like 85% there. But they're still like... Lowry has that one extra crazy aggro alpha piece

that he unleashed on the Knicks in the second half of game one where he's just all over the place. Like P.J. Tucker has it too. That's like the, I just wanted to go to a camp to learn that. Just where the Philly, everyone on the Philly team is mad on him, mad at him for four games of a playoff series. Because he, it's weird. He does the flopping stuff.

He'll get in, but he's actually a really respectful player. He just does a lot of chicanery, but I don't think he's a dirty player, do you? No, I don't think he's dirty necessarily. He just flops way too much. I wish the Celtics had a dirty player. You got to have a dirty player. Yeah, we need a dirty player. PJ Tucker, how many little things has he done in this series? He's always like, oh, somebody just got sent flying. I wonder who that was.

They'll show the replay. It's like, oh, it's because P.J. Tucker sent him flying. I respect it. All right, KSC. I'm glad we talked this out. We will see what happens. When's the next mismatch for you? We're recording Thursday night.

Thursday night. So that's after these Game 5s of Philly-Boston and – or Game 6s. Philly-Boston and Phoenix-, Philly, Boston and Phoenix, Denver game sixes. And if you've missed beyond the arc is his show that we've been running on Fandle TV. You can also see it on the through the ringer video podcast. That's a special podcast we have. That's just videos. And we've been doing great stuff. You like the set. I keep bringing stuff for the set. Yeah. The set is better. We have some basketball stuff, some balls and whatnot.

Yeah. I got, I got a set looking strong. Yeah. That's looking better. We have some basketball stuff, some balls and whatnot. Yeah, I get a bunch of stuff as well. Yeah, the set's looking good. We're going to build week by week. Going to keep getting better. All right. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti as well. This will be Kyle's last podcast because his bachelor party's this weekend and he's

probably never going to see him again. I don't know. Will we see him next again. I don't know. Will we see him next week? I don't know. 50-50. Does Fando have odds? Let me look.

Oh, Fando says 50-50. We see Kyle ever again after his bachelor party. Is that why you're rehiring Tate, Bill? Just in case we're back up for Kyle? Tate's going to do double duty. I only trust him and Kyle. All right. Cassie, good luck with the rest of the pods and the shows.

I will see everybody on Thursday on this feed. Hopefully, I won't be distraught. I don't have a few years with him. I don't have.