The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Clippers Conundrum, LeBron MVP Myths, Kyrie’s Resurgence,  and the Ref Review Crisis With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Nets’ win over the Clippers, Brooklyn’s road-trip win streak, and the Clippers' playoff implications (2:00). They test pilot a new segment called You’re Out of Excuses (27:00); discuss the increasingly aggravating instant replay, especially at the end of NBA games (57:00); look back at the MVP awards LeBron James hasn't won over the past eight years (1:15:00); empathize with Timberwolves fans; and more (1:39:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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A thrilling game. Really kind of enjoyed it. There haven't been a lot of super fun night games this year, but that was a good one. Ends with Harden somehow getting a call on a Kawhi drive, offensive foul. Oh, the irony. We want to talk about the Clippers start this, but before we do that, we have to mention here, Rosillo, this Brooklyn thing,

they're running the table on this road trip. And as you know, nothing I love more for potential in the playoffs than a team that goes on the road, takes care of business. They beat Golden State, Sacramento, Phoenix. They beat a no Davis Lakers team. And then they beat this Clippers team here. Five and oh on the trip. Are you buying? Are you buying the nets right now? No Durant for four of those games too. Yeah, absolutely. Not only this run, but I believe they're the only team that has a winning record against the West that's in the East. Brooklyn is now with the Pacers. I mean, this is a joke when you look at the Eastern Conference standings, which is something we've touched on before, but only the Pacers, the Nets have a winning record on the road. And so sometimes when you look at some of these East records,

especially a few weeks ago, you could go, wait, this team hasn't played anybody in the West Coast yet. And here goes Brooklyn with this defense that I still think is a concern and no Durant, their best defensive player, and they're beating really good teams. Yeah, and I think Kyrie's playing as well as I can remember him playing since that. Remember that when the Celts, what did they start out?

16-0, that his first Celtics stretch right after Hayward got hurt and they were playing, and Kyrie was basically just carrying them and doing everything. He seems like he's in that mode again. I love the way Harden's playing, as frustrating as it is that how the Houston thing ended. Still don't feel like he's in great shape, but what I've noticed with them, the last five minutes of games, when those guys are playing hard, they're not going to be playing hard 48 minutes a game for six straight months. But they can turn it up to at least a decent level. And then you get in a situation where you have to outscore them. And just eye test as I'm watching it, I always feel like they're going to outscore whoever they're going against.

And this is even without KD today. You just look at Kyrie and Harden together and you're like, all right, when these guys are going, this is really hard. It's really hard to match points. So Durant wasn't even out there. And this is what I was arguing with Barkley about on Tuesday. I still think their ability in those last five minutes of whatever to just be like, all right, do whatever you want. We're scoring when we have it is really dangerous. And I think it's the most dangerous thing. Anything dangerous thing anyone has going right now. Yeah, I mean, that's really what you're always looking for is some level of efficiency from guys

that create and get their own shot. And they have three of the best in the league all on the same team. It's stupid. So when I worry about the defense, I'll give you some quick overall numbers. Overall defensively on per 100 possessions, Brooklyn's 26th.

In the stretch from when they got hardened before this winning streak, they were 30th. And then we dug into some of those fourth quarter numbers where their offense was like uncharted waters and the defense was so bad it was uncharted. Since this run, February 10th, I don't have the Clippers numbers in there. They're 21st, but the defense around the league

has gotten worse in February than it was in January. There's a bunch of reasons, effort, COVID, all these things that we can point to. But their defense doesn't really need to be any better than average. And one of the things that I worried about with Houston when they went small was it wasn't so much the defense as they couldn't rebound. And the rebounding for Brooklyn is passable.

Actually, the Clippers are the ones who couldn't get a defensive board to close this one out. DeAndre with that putback when they tied it up, that shot was like the shot of the game in a way. So to see Harden be able to facilitate with non-Eric Gordon, P.J. Tucker's in the corner figuring out what Westbrook is going to do,

clearly he and Chris Paul, even though they won a million games, you could see they still kind of were doing their own thing. This is Harden who's one of the best passers in the league. He's been a great passer his whole career, but I think now more people are seeing it that maybe turned off Houston or just don't watch games out of their own time zone.

To see him orchestrating all this stuff now, it's scary. So they just need to be averaged defensively. But I wonder, again, about certain matchups. And that's another conversation against other big teams in the playoffs. I mean, I watch way too much Celtics and it's so hard for the Celtics to score

when things slow down, especially in the fourth quarter and it just becomes your turn, my turn and it's, you saw in the Pelicans today it's Tatum making these, you know, amazing shots with the guy draped all over him the ease with Jeanette's gets some of these baskets because of how gifted those guys are like, they have enough movement

it's not like what Houston was like, where it was four guys standing around watching Harden. I do feel like people are moving around and more things are happening, and people are curling around stuff, or somebody's getting the ball and they're actually moving versus just throwing them the ball. And you give those guys a step,

and I just think it's really hard to play. You saw with the Clippers today, the Clippers are allegedly a good defensive team and it's really easy for the Nets to get what they want. So anyway, look, it's early. Health is going to matter, but I still feel like they have by far the highest ceiling in the East

and I would be surprised if it's not Nets-Lakers. I really would. All right, you'd be surprised. Look, if the East is Brooklyn, I'm not going to be surprised. But I think there's a difference between, like, here's a good example. I don't know if Nash did it,

but I tweeted about it. I think Nash called a timeout very early in an offensive possession when Zubach was in, and they were like, hey, let's abuse this guy. Let's get him caught in the middle. And it reminds me a little of

some of the stuff that Houston was doing was Capella was there. Where when Harden and Capella were doing, you know, I'm either going to float it or lob it to you, you're fucked. You just are because Harden's so good. And because he's big enough to kind of ward you off of him on top of everything else, he's got every floater down. He's got all that stuff, and his passing is so good. And then when they tried to just go super small, they got rid of that as, you know, obviously trading Capella and just opening everything up. So it reminds me of some of that houston stuff but there's a difference

between a zubach who again the clippers ended up taken out in the second half because i think that was part of it i also think the league is so perimeter based that we'll see biggs cut and they'll have their hands up and the perimeter guy with the ball is like wait you think i'm passing it to you what is this oh eight like we don't do that and you can see bigs just be like oh it's stupid me thinking i was going to get it on a seal and you can try to do some of that stuff but i would still think and we'll get to philly at some point i'm sure i would still think like a real big guy that's 35 minutes 80 touches a game is a prop like i still think mb presents a problem to that front line unless they just outscore him

and then it doesn't matter. Here's my counter and this is what I said to Barkley five days ago. Let's just pencil in Embiid for 37 a game in that series. I'll give it to you right now. I still don't think it matters. I still think they would have trouble matching points. Now I'm saying this off of what Embiid did

on Friday night, which is the highest level I've seen him go in that Bulls game, which you watch that game, right? Yeah. We have to do some Embiid stuff at some point here. Yeah. We'll save that for, I guess we could do that. We have a little hodgepodge section later,

but what he was doing in the fourth quarter that it was like watching somebody who's like, oh, I've solved the new level of a video game. So yeah. Could he score against Brooklyn like that? He could. But the problem is he's like a guy in a bar fight who's fighting three guys, not one guy. Yeah, he's on the same level offensively

as Kyrie and KD and Harden, but they have these two other guys who can also do it. We'll talk about him in a second. Let's shift to the Clippers quick. So they're 22 and 10 this season. Last year, they were 44 and 20 in the pre-bubble. We know what happens in the bubble. Heading into this game, they're fourth in scoring.

They were making 14.2 threes a game heading into tonight, 42% on three, which you would think like, if you just told me that, I would have been like, oh my God, are they like 30 and five? What's their record? They're getting good seasons out of Kawhi and George, basically 53 combined. Same kind of rebounds, assist numbers. They're both shooting really well.

George is almost, he's almost a 50, 50, 90 guys close. And yet you saw it again tonight. They're the worst team in the league in clutch minutes. That was heading into today. Their defensive rating in a clutch, which is defined as last five minutes within five points, their offensive rating was one 31.9. I still thought this was interesting. Their second in pace in clutch. They almost don't know how to go slow half court. Let's find your shot. And you saw it again tonight. Once, once it turned into a last five

minutes of the game situation, I thought I didn't think they were going to win. I just didn't think they had enough. What do you see from this team? Because it's one thing to be a good regular season team, but is this a team that you think could win four straight series in a row? Because I would say no. There's definitely a negative hangover for them because of what happened last year. And I've been talking about it before the season even started. I'm like, look, everybody's way too off of them. And coming into this game, they're 16-3, now 16-4 with Kawhi and Paul George in the lineup. And George is playing arguably his most efficient hoops with less shot attempts.

And the passing is incredible. All the offensive numbers, the shooting stuff, it's all right there. They're actually behind Brooklyn in a few of those categories where Brooklyn's number one in the league. But I don't like, you know, when I say they didn't look prepared tonight, because this podcast would be completely different than we were doing 24 hours ago, by the way, than beating the Jazz and looking really good.

A huge win over the Jazz. Yeah, it was a great one. By the way, so much of this podcast would be different if we did it Saturday night as opposed to Sunday night. The Celtics and some of the other stuff, too. So I don't want to freak out about it. And I dig into the fourth quarter stuff, too. So I wonder, you know, if you're counting almost 10 games without those guys in the lineup,

how much do you put into some of that stuff? But they just, it's like, look, Brooklyn's going to switch. But switching everything can make you stay all offensively. You can start to go ISO a little bit. It's almost like they had to remind themselves to get a Baca and some seals. They didn't really get him going until the second half because he wasn't great in the first half. I would love to see them play Brooklyn again tomorrow night to see if they look like they're more up for it. And even that in the fourth quarter, I'm like, this game just feels flat.

And again, you know, the circumstances are part of that, too. But they're back in it and tied. And that felt weird, right? Like you guys just haven't been the better team and now you have a chance to win this thing. So, I don't think

that they were really prepared to attack Brooklyn defensively the way I would have thought a team this talented normally would be. Well, I'm not sure they have the right team

to attack them defensively. Because the thing that struck me in this game was you have the heart in Kyrie backcourt. Which the more, I actually really enjoy watching Brooklyn. I hate to say it. I wish that wasn't the case, but I just love basketball. I really like watching those guys play together. And you think like on the one hand, you have Kyrie and Harden, two of the most gifted offensive players we have in the league.

And on the other side, you have a pick to Patrick know, pick two, Patrick Beverly, Lou Trick or Treat Williams, Luke Kennard, who didn't play tonight, Reggie Jackson, who didn't play tonight, whatever. He was in for a little bit. Yeah, whatever. Mediocrity across the board on the Clippers' backcourt. I just think the Nets are a terrible matchup for them, but I also think the Lakers are a terrible matchup for them

if Davis is Davis. I don't think that's a good thing either. So basically the two teams they need to beat, I think this season, I don't think they match up well with, and that would really concern me. Here's the other thing. You know, they did that canard trade, which was pretty weird. They, they had the sham it asset. Brooklyn wanted Shamit. Detroit was fired up to get rid of Kennard and get the number 19 pick for him. And then the Clippers end up getting Kennard and gave him, I think, 64 million. And he's been pretty inessential for them.

You know, he's been like a 10th man. He's basically been what Peyton Pritchard is for the Celtics. And now they're out of moves because they paid him, they paid Morris. I don't even really know how you make this team better unless you try to do Lou Williams and try to take back somebody else's problem. This is kind of their team. If you could fix the team, what would you do? Well, I think all of us sit here and go, you have to worry about the Lakers

if you're one of these teams in this tier of the NBA. And so what you're asking is, hey, do you have a mobile big who can keep on the court and can also score? It's like, oh, good luck. Who's that guy? I hate to sound like I'm pro-Kannard, but I think the argument Kannard over somebody like Shammott, although the contract looks bad now. And look, he missed what was wednesday's game he was cleared friday he had the knee so

maybe that's part of it too and by the way pretty up and down though for him this season right even though the stats look a little better than what it's actually been like yeah you're right because the like some of the traditional stuff you're like oh he's been hitting shots and all that stuff i think the argument for canard was that he could actually do more and put the i just like guys that don't have to be glued to the floor. Like the only thing you can do is sit in the corner and never move. And if you have to dribble more than twice, you're lost. I think Kennard can do more of those things, but between that and the Morris contract, which was a bird rights thing where they basically had to do that just to keep the asset in place,

which kind of sucks. Um, strong. Strong use of the word asset. Right. But it's how do we replace this at any kind of number? Look, I'm not the biggest Marcus Morris guy. It's well documented, but I also understand the rationale behind it. I don't know that there's this fix unless they wanted Chris Paul before the season started. But Chris Paul's like, look, there's no way this fits. There's no way you fit my salary into what you're trying to do here, and it doesn't work. So to add this next big piece, I don't know what that is.

I like when they tried to get, it was like, we want Chris Paul. It's like, okay, great. I'm sure you do. I was to blame for that one because I was telling people on your podcast, I'm like, I know that Kawhi reached out to him. And by the time it got out, I know they were interested. It was just an impossibility.

Yeah, but it's cap wise. There was no way. It would have been like if I was like, yeah, we really want a coward. But, you know, he wanted to stay at Fox. And it's like, you were never getting coward. Like, you're never getting Chris Paul. And it was never on the table. I couldn't believe people were like, oh, how's it. Like you're never getting Chris Paul. And it was

never on the table. I couldn't believe people were like, Oh, how's it going to work? I wonder who's in the deal. Uh, they're not getting them. They're stuck with Beverly. They're stuck with Lou Williams, who is the really as, as documented here, a bunch of times, one of the worst playoff performers for what his skill set is really the last 30 years. And I look at their crunch time and you look at the different lineups. They're like, okay, what is their best five? They're going down in flames. It's a game six. They're down 3-2 in a series.

What five guys are out there to try to save the season? Here are your choices. So Kawhi and PG, Ibaka, Batum and Beverly? Kawhi and PG, Ibaka, Batum and Beverly? Kawhi and PG, Ibaka, Morris and Williams? Kawhi and PG, Morris go small at the five, Batum and Williams? Like you start moving those other pieces around and it's like, I don't like any of these jigsaw puzzle pieces. I don't know who their best five it is. And as I've said to you many times over the years, it's hard for me to back a team when I don't know what their best five is. And I don't know who their best five it is. And as I've said to you many times over the years, it's hard for me to back a team

when I don't know what their best five is. And I don't know what it is. Eventually, I think it's Morris, Abak, Kawhi, George, and Beverly. Do you like that five? Because I don't. Do I like it better than other fives? No, but I like that better than,

you know, Batum, we both have to admit, and I don't think we were wrong in the beginning of the year. He looked like a guy in a pickup game. I can't, I'm not doing it. It's like the right last year, I'm not doing it. Look, he's been better. He's been better than we thought he was going to be. No, no, no, no, no, no, I don't think we were wrong in the beginning of the year. He looked like a guy in a pickup game. I'm not doing it. It's like the way it looks. Well, he's been better. Look, he's been better.

He's been better than we thought he was going to be. No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't hear you. All right. But I don't think you'd expect him to be in a closing situation in a playoff game. Well, you saw what happened today. Minute left, down four. Wide open three from the corner.

Nick Batum, did you think it was going in? I didn't. Didn't go in. How about when Lou Williams, I think they're down four at that point after after harden hit the free throw and he brings it up and it's like you threw it to terrence man in the corner for three which is going to take longer than you pulling up and hitting a three and then he got abused a couple times defensively again which is going to happen i would think you would even though brooklyn switches everything i would think you would try to find a way if again it's not like if the clippers are playing him it's the nba finals so

something went right which you know is all part of the davis thing because it's not like if the Clippers are playing him, it's the NBA finals. So something went right, which, you know, is all part of the Davis thing, because it's basically like I swear to God, I've seen Anthony Davis his whole career. And I feel like every third game he's limping and kind of looking up at somebody and walking towards a tunnel. And I love the guy. And so, you know, they'll take their time with him because the Lakers are the only team I give the benefit of the doubt to out of the entire league. But there's just... You're asking me to solve something where I think we talked about them after beating Utah Friday. You're like, look, Kawhi and Paul George

are at another level, and other guys are hitting shots around them. They're this great shooting team, and they're good to go. I just felt like they were totally off tonight. And then the Paul George part where he gets them back into this in his fourth quarter, and then they had good to go. I just felt like they were totally off tonight. And then the Paul George part, where he gets them back into this in his fourth quarter, and then they had to sit him.

They had to sit him to close the game. Yeah, why did they do that? I don't know. It wasn't like he went in the back. So he was leaning against the table there, and then all the announcers are kind of like, what's going on? They didn't know if it was a minutes restriction

or bringing him back. You know, the Clippers are like a better version of the Celtics, where the Celtics, I feel like, are in year three of never having the same group together for a month. And it's really frustrating. The Celtics should be better than this. I don't want to turn this into the full Celtics podcast because I know everybody's worried already as I'm doing this. But the Clippers

have a little bit of that in them. They've just been better. Where you go, you know, I'd love to see you guys together for six weeks. I had that written down. They're rich man Celtics. All the same issues, but the 3-12 is better, but the same kind of issue.

They revolve around these two guys who are having great years. I don't really trust anybody else. They have the same issue where you mentioned you thought it was Kawhi, PG, Ibaka, Morris, Beverly. That was your pick for their five. The ball's not moving with those five.

Beverly is in a corner. Morris, ball stopper galore. Abaka's not moving. And then it's just Kawhi and PG going one-on-one, much like the Celtics problem with Tatum and Brown, where, you know,

with Kemba, the way he's playing, they really don't have anybody who can kind of attack the paint and create a shot for anybody except these two guys. And everybody else knows it. I think that's a real issue for the Clippers. So maybe you're right. Maybe Kennard, as weird as this sounds, is the X factor for them. Because they need him to actually be a crunch time guy

who can give them that little something weird, something different. I don't know. But I think they have moved the ball, though, at times. I mean, when you look at the George playmaking and the Kawhi playmaking that's always steady, I mean, George, it feels a little bit like nothing's as bad as the Bills. But to remind younger listeners,

when the Bills would make the Super Bowl after year two, it was like, oh, the Bills are in it. People were so when the Bills would make the Super Bowl after year two, it was like, oh, the Bills are in it. People were so pissed at them for being in the Super Bowl again. And getting to the Super Bowl is more of an accomplishment than anything that this Clippers group has done. But no one cares about anything Paul George has done during the regular season until we see it in the playoffs.

It won't matter what he's doing. He could get MVP votes, and it won't matter. And he's been terrific, and he was the reason why this game even got close again. But none of it is going to matter because everybody remembers how last year ended and other failures in closeout games. He is the fall guy if they don't do anything this year.

They sign him to that giant deal, and they will trade him. The Batum thing. I don't know why this annoys me. I don't know why I get annoyed for other fan bases who really don't even care. But his season last year, or his last two, but especially last year, where he shoots 28% from three,

he plays 23 minutes a game, just looked out of shape, lazy, didn't give a shit. The year before, same thing. And then this year now he's engaged, re-engaged, I should say. And the irony is Charlotte's pretty good. You know, I think their playoff team, they have a chance to actually win their division, which me, Sal, and Hal spent on like four weeks ago

at like five to one. So we've been like rooting them and following them. I was even excited they won that stupid game last night. Batum would help them. He's like the way this version of Batum. I wonder how many people know what the division is. Like if you ask the hardest core NBA guy to go over all the divisions, you'd be like, wait, what?

What was this again? They have like a game and a half lead over Miami. And the funny thing is Washington's only three back. Washington, who is dead? Washington was like five and 15 and two games out of the playing game. I was like, yeah, no, playing game. Awesome, guys.

So I just instinctively want to root against Batum's success because when somebody's making 26 million a year and like, hey, I'm good. I'm not going to try this year. It's just, it's a tough one. And you can get away with it in Charlotte because they have like one guy covering the team. We didn't factor in the Boris Diaww connection because boris diaw did the exact

same thing and i don't know if it's uh an international thing where they're making fun of us over there and like you know pro siri a where they're like yeah there's american teams they pay you and then you can just quit and then you get healthy and then you go somewhere else to start playing hard again be like like, you should do that. That's what I did when I went to San Antonio. Be like, ah, good call. So you, that Utah game, I agree with you.

That was a big win. Of course it was. Well, because it was the back-to-back, you know, it's like the team got you the first time. You got it. But they did do a gimmick thing

that I've been dying for anyone to try against Utah where they played Morris as the small ball five and tried to lure Gobert out and pull him away from the basket, which is like, I thought we solved the Gobert thing a couple of years ago with this, where just like go small, bring him out of the basket. He gets completely flustered. And now I think maybe it's because we have more big guys now. Utah's allowed to play him. And it was fun to watch the Clippers try to turn the Gobert thing on them. And it worked.

You know, the Lakers aren't going to do that because it's to their benefit to play Anthony Davis. And, you know, whatever. It was a great call. Just for them. But I just enjoyed it. And I don't understand why more teams don't do that against like a really superior Utah team this year. Well, I'm not going to write off Utah because of that game because I just

feel like... I'm not writing them off. I'm just saying, why not do that gimmick? If you're whoever. If you're like Golden State, like fucking play Eric Paschal at center. You know? Because you're not going to get one rebound. Right. But you're pulling Gobert away at least. I don't know.

I enjoyed it. I like chicanery. I like basketball chicanery. But haven't we talked about the big where it feels like, unless you're one of the top, top guys, they're just,

we've talked about this for years, I feel like. There are moments where in one game it plays out that it's not working and they have to like take a big guy out. And then another time, however the ball is going, just however the basketball gods, those 48 minutes,

it can seem like not every game is played out the exact same way. So I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily. I guess I don't want to seem any anti-Gobert because he's been so much more into it this year. Agreed. He's reminding us again of why we all got excited about him in the first place. And the team across the board is like every player is better except for like one guy. That team's really good. And to beat them

on certain nights, you're gonna have to do weird stuff against them because they play really well together and they know what they're doing. We're going to take a break. We're going to do the you're out of excuses. I'll start team. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember.

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for yourself. We'll make this the February edition of the You're Out of Excuses All-Star Team. I need to really know, are the Clippers, are they out of excuses? Because, you know, even I had Chris Haynes on Thursday and he made a really passionate case that the Clippers were really fucked up by the bubble. And it's like, you know, there are certain teams, people that were really, really profoundly affected in there and they were one of them. And he expects them to be different this year. Like's like, okay, but if they're not okay, they're out of excuses. Who else is out of excuses? I'm going to give you James Harden.

Awesome situation. Having another great offensive season. Got out of that Houston deal. He's got help. He's in a weaker conference everything is set up for him to make the finals if he doesn't make the finals this year I think he's out I think he's out of excuses what do you think yeah I thought we'd already addressed this with Harden um so you're right it changes everything where if he was still with Houston, I'd be like, why are we even doing this topic? But with Brooklyn, yeah. Yeah, I don't... What's the argument for him? He did an unbelievable Philadelphia run

where defensively they find a way to lock this team up, which just seems impossible. And they just destroy them. They get comfortable after two games where they know all the rotations and they know with the switching that this is how we're going to beat you all the time. We're going to set up something away from Embiid.

I want to run some Harden numbers by you. Give it to me. Harden, do you know what his career three-point percentage is? Isn't it like 35? You're good. He's 36% for his career. All right? Houston, the last few years, 35 year is 35 36 37 somewhere around that

with the Nets he's 41 percent small sample understood for his career in the playoffs with Houston he's 32 percent last year Harden was 102 from three-point range so part of it can be the burden of the offense where he had to take so many shots. I also think he could probably clean up a few of them here or there. But now he doesn't take any of those shots. So it's not that he's the 102nd best three-point shooter. That'd be an absurd thing to say. But there's a significant decline in the playoffs.

And now looking at this bump with the Nets, I wonder if we'll see him in the playoffs because he doesn't have to take so many. He doesn't have to fight. many. He doesn't have to. The burden is not there anymore. He's got to be like north of 37 percent in the playoffs because he's just had some awful shooting performances, awful playoff seasons where you go, look, if this is what you're going to run and you're this guy and we're putting you up there historically with other

offensive players, you have to be better. You can't be like 29 percent for a playoff year from three. And with Houston, he was at 32% in playoff games. So yeah, with this setup. I always felt like with the situation he was in with Houston or when you see, especially the 2000s had a lot of teams like this, right? Gilbert Arenas and the Wizards, LeBron and the Cavs,

Pierce and the Celtics, where it's like, they really basically only have one good guy. You figure one out of every 10 threes is a terrible end of the shot clock three, right? So when we say he's 36%, all right, we're five of those 100 threes, the offense

broke down and he got the ball dumped back to him, whatever, and maybe on the nets that doesn't happen anymore. And that's the difference. Yeah, it's a small number. It's a small number, but the difference between 36 and 41 is 5 out of 100 threes that you missed because of some weird circumstance.

Alright, we agree. James Harden is out of excuses. How about Mike Malone? Absolutely. They don't defend again. They got torched tonight by Atlanta. Torched. Torched.

Every time I looked up, just layups. And, you know, they didn't defend that well last year, I don't think, during the regular season. And it's crazy what new playoff success can mean for a franchise because you're like, all right, Denver, ready to take the next step. But, you know, those of us that, all right, Denver, ready to take the next step. But, you know, those of us that watched all of these games, and that's why we can take it so personal sometimes, when Jamal Murray turned into Superman against Utah, and then over the course of the playoffs,

you're like, man, is this who he's going to be? We're like, nope. And it was absurd what he was. So I don't know. They don't defend. They've had some, like, Gary Harris was missing time. P.J. Dozier was out. So, they're playing, you know, Hampton. They're playing some new guys, the draft pick from Arizona. They've had in there a little bit more. But I just thought, like, fundamentally, they would defend a little bit better with Malone.

I think that's kind of what people think, and they don't. Other thing with them, you know, last year's team, at least in the first half of the season, had Jeremy Grant and Malik Beasley on it. And Jeremy Grant, well-documented what he's doing in Detroit. I mean, he's having a good stats, bad team season galore, but was still an asset. And then the Malik Beasley thing, they basically,

I never really totally understood the mechanics behind it, but I think they were thinking, well, we're going to have to pay him next year and we're not going to be able to do it, so we might as well trade him now and we'll get a pick or whatever. And it seemed like they were basically betting on Monte Morris and...

Will Barton. And Will Barton, who they're already paying. Who they didn't have last year in the playoffs. And now you look at, you know, granted, Minnesota stinks, but you watch Beasley on League Pass some nights. That guy's a really good scorer. You know, they effectively gave him away. And I wonder, you know, the construction of this team, I'm with you. I think, uh, it, it doesn't make sense that this Denver team almost looks, it's another version of the Celtics Cooper's things we were talking about, where it's like two guys.

And then they're just kind of crossing their fingers for everybody else in the roster. Have you, Porter is not on the, you're out of excuses, all-star team, but, uh,

you're one of the biggest Porter fans. Where are you right now? No, it hasn't been great. You know, it hasn't. Is it support group level yet or no? No, I think it's a tough offense to play in

when you're the third guy. It just is. Yeah. So, you know how much of the action is Murray and Jokic? And they did some cool stuff in one of the games recently because I was like, oh, they're doing like a side thing where they're setting it up on the side off of that instead of the high screen roll.

And look, I think all these teams do a little bit more than we probably would realize when we'll say, oh, they run the same thing over and over again. But then when Will Barton has it, he's just going to go. They're getting Gary Harris back. I mean, you know you're paying Jokic, you're paying Murray. They paid Harris a ton. They wanted to pay Grant. You know, Porter's still a

guy that ends up getting paid at some point. Harris not being enough offensively, i think really kind of set them back um as a team and you know maybe that was grant's whole point because like when i heard the 61 million for grant i was like whoa because i mean he's somebody who had a 40 minute game against the jazz the playoff zero rebounds and like another 38 minute game against him one rebound uh he's had 35 playoff games 17 of them have been less than 10 points. And it blows my mind that Grant can dribble into his offense and some of the playmaking he makes.

But I also go like, what do you want to do as a franchise if Jeremy Grant's taking 20 shots a game? Although everybody takes 20 shots a game. We know what you want to do. You want to go 5-25 or whatever the record is. Right, right. You want to lose games. But the Grant loss, I don't think,

can be pinned on all of this stuff. I feel like the playoffs may have been a little bit more misleading. You can't both be incredibly impressed with Denver and then monumentally disappointed with the Clippers. Don't you have to be a little bit more one than the other? Well, I'll even throw this at you. Let's say Mike Conley's shot goes in in game seven. Exactly. I mean, look.

Then they're trading for James Harden, or at least goes in in game seven. Exactly. I mean, look. They're trading for James Harden, or at least they're in the James Harden sweepstakes with Murray a month and a half ago. You're out of excuses. Danny Ainge. Let's try not to make this more than two minutes, but you made a lot of moves the last six, seven years

and now I'm looking at a roster that has Tatum and Brown and Smart and a bunch of role players. Keep going. I'll let you go. Well, I'll say this. $27.5 million trade exception.

This is their last chance to get somebody good or get two good players, two upgrades, whatever. From a free agent standpoint, they're not going to have the money. So if they don't figure out what to do with this exception, at some point during the season, then basically you're crossing your fingers and hoping Kemba Walker comes back. I've watched a lot of Kemba Walker this year. Any good defense he cannot score against. He has had six, seven, eight horrendous games where he, when I say horrendous, where he's like five for 19, three for 17, four for 18.

And it's not like, Kyrie missed a three late in the game today, uh, where he just missed it. It hit the back room and came out, you know, and he missed it. It's in the play by play sheet. It's a miss. Kemba's missing threes that are wide open that are going like right and left that are like almost hitting the backboard first. He has no confidence at all offensively anymore. And then when he lights up the Hawks, and the worst defensive, worst defense is like, oh, Kemba's back. Here we go. And it's like, hey, is he?

Because every time I've seen him against good defense, I see a guy who can't get to the rim anymore, and his shot is just all over the place. I thought it, I thought Steven should have benched him today. Um, and played Pritchard in the OT cause at least Pritchard, you know, could have attacked the basket. But anyway, I think Ainge, they haven't won a title since 2008. It was 13 years ago. Uh, the Tatum Brown trade that, you know, they made in the summer of 2013, that was eight years ago.

And at some point, you are who you are, as Bill Parcells once said. And he needs to figure out what to do with that trade exception and needs to figure out how to make this team a contender. The East is not good. There's three good teams in the East, and Milwaukee I'm not even sure is that good. So there's a top four spot waiting for this team.

They have the talent. The overreaction would be wait till Marcus Smart comes back. They've lost some dumb games. But from what I've seen, I've seen a coach that doesn't really have a handle on his roster and a roster that was poorly constructed. I'll start with the Kemba thing because, first of all, you don't have any choice. So to save Ben Ch all, you don't have any choice. So to say you can't, I, you know, I know you've hinted at it before and we've talked about some of his struggles, but no, he had a really good game. I thought against the Clippers.

Um, I thought he was good in the Toronto game. The Washington overall numbers are good. That Washington game should never be a positive for anybody that ever wears green. Cause that was an absolutely horrendous loss a week ago. You know, they beat Denver. He lights up Atlanta. But he was bad. He was bad in big, big spots. He was fumbling the ball against New Orleans today.

I mean, that's New Orleans' biggest comeback in team history. And it was a team that looked like they were quitting on themselves during that game where you're watching it going. I texted you at one point. I was like, we've got to do Pelicans today. Like something's wrong with this team. There still might be something wrong with that team, by the way. So, you know, to go, hey, Pelicans are fixed.

Although it could be a season-defining kind of win. Maybe. Because it's historic and they changed up with a smaller lineup with going Mellion opening things up for Zion, which I think is a no-brainer anytime. Like why you wouldn't let Zion get started offensively with a ball in his hands further away. He just destroys people.

So, alright, back to the Celtics part of it. The Kemba thing, you have no choice because you've got to figure it out with Kemba. Because if you don't figure it out with Kemba, you don't have a chance anyway. They shouldn't be 15-15. I still think, as we said at the top, this is year three of going, oh, who's in? Oh, who's out? It's unbelievable. I think it's bad luck with Hayward.

You can talk about pre-existing conditions with Kemba, but nobody was upset when Rozier went to $51 million for Charlotte and Kemba ended up coming here to Boston and people feeling like something was salvaged in an impossible situation post-Kyrie. And everyone would have signed Hayward. And if Hayward were going to play like this,

maybe he would have gotten every single dollar out of Boston to stick around in the first place. And then when you talk about lack, there's just a lot of misses later in the first. I'm not going to argue for it. I'd still rather have a GM that knows the Tatum pick better than anybody else that has the balls to take Jalen. I'd rather

have you invest well in your 401k than be a good tipper one night out. You know what I'm saying? So the bigger picture stuff, Ainge seems to be much better with. But this team just is so... They're all over the place defensively at times. The bench somehow is worse.

Which, you know, Teague actually scored a little bit last year. And it's terrible. Tristan takes like an hour to make a decision. And then he decides to barrel you over. And he actually scores. I can't believe people aren't flopping against him a little bit more. But you said it last year. This is probably the best window

for them to get out of the East. Last year was. Yeah. Last year. When I ask you out of excuses, what do you think? Changes? Do you think changes should be in order if they're outside of the top four seed or something?

I didn't think they should do this last year because I actually liked having Thompson at 9 million versus what the Indiana offer was because they could have had Turner or McDermott. Now watching the Pacers this year and seeing those guys on the Pacers, I'd rather have those guys than the trade exception. I wish they had gotten those guys.

I think they'd be better. I think they'd have a better team. They really miss Hayward. It's really crazy. And even, even Hobbold's up and down Hayward when he was out there,

at least the ball moved a little bit more. At least he knew where to go and what to do. All right. You sure though? Remember, remember when he couldn't

make a layup in the playoffs and how mad you, Dr. Bill was not happy. No. Even that guy, they miss more than the swings they have this season. It's just this never ending rotation of, of swings who can't really do anything other than run to a spot.

So I even have a McDermott in there. At least he can move around and like create a shot in this team. We got to stop talking about this. All right. By the way, no, we should close on this. The knee Smith part of this, the Pritchard pick, everybody laughed about. He's going to play in the league a long time. But seeing some of the guys that went after knee Smith, I went through it.

I think knee Smith did take a free throw today in 14 of his games that he had played prior to this. He'd taken free throws in two of them. I texted you in house. He had taken 47 shots and 38 of them were threes. It's like this modern 2021 player of these guys that are just like, hey, what do you do for a living? I play basketball. I run to three spots on the court and I

don't do anything else and I have no basketball skills. And it seems like he actually is a skilled guy, but the way that's not who he was at it's not. I mean, he actually had he got to the free throw line like five times a game. I mean, he shot over 50% from three, which again is a little fluky because it was an absurd number. I think it was 56% or something like that. But now when you watch him, he's not just

limited. He's, he's very like, he's thinking too much. He had a rotation in Atlanta where he didn't take a three and you're like, dude, that's the only shot you should be taking. And so to me as an organizational failure, as much as anything. Now, granted, it's COVID, miserable. It's hard to assimilate rookies. The schedule's weird. So I'm not going to write them off. But all right, next one.

You're out of excuses. Coach Bud. Coach Bud, are you out of excuses? Yeah, they don't get out of the second round. They don't get out of the second round what? Why are you making a face? You look tortured. Well, I mean, this guy's just going to end up being...

Because the Atlanta thing is against him, even though that Atlanta team won all those games, and nobody thought they were actually going to win the East. So that somehow is a negative for him now. But considering what... I mean, they got smoked by the Heat. Now, this last week plus, no Drew Holiday the defensive numbers have been terrible but they've looked lost and maybe it's just a blip

in the season but I you know bigger picture this is about them getting to the finals again they didn't do him any favors with the roster I'm gonna say he he isn't out of excuses because if I'm him I'm like hey man is it my fault that Brooke Lopez is just turning into like a 31% three-point shooter who doesn't go near the basket anymore? And I've got Bryn Forbes and DJ Augustine and fucking Bobby Portis. Bobby Portis has been all right. What am I supposed to do? I know, but it's just a weird team. Out of excuses, Stan Van Gundy.

Fourth job. So the recap or, uh, started in Miami and the entire Miami team basically got him fired. And Riley had to come in, goes to Orlando, takes them to the finals, gets a lot of credit for that. Then if you go back and you actually watch that series, he was some of the most abominable coaching we've had in the finals. Got a lot of credit for this inventive,

you know, modern team that shot a lot of threes around a center, but I don't know what else that roster was supposed to do. His three best players were Turk, Lou, Richard Lewis, and Dwight. You got to play them all together. Goes to Detroit. It's a complete debacle. Goes to the Pelicans, and it's a complete debacle.

And today was like the first fun moment they've had. I don't know. I feel like this is his last job. If it doesn't work out here, he's out of excuses. Well, I don't see how he gets a fifth head coaching job after this if it doesn't work out. It's bad. It's bad down there because this is an incredible win,

and maybe it can change some things around. But I watch them a lot because I like watching Zion. But the Adam Zion pairing didn't make a ton of sense on paper, and the only thing I can think of is that they were so concerned with how terrible the rim defense was last year, they were like, hey, let's go get a big guy.

But it clogs you up so much that this league feels like, hey, you know what, even if we're kind of whatever on defense, let's make sure we're just open for our offensive players, especially if we have really skilled ones like Brandon Ingram and Zion. And the way

the guards defended from the third quarter on when they came back, I don't think there should be any debate that it's Zoe and Hart closing games because of the way they played defensively today. Jason Hart's one of my favorite random dudes in the league, and Stan always begrudgingly plays him in these Pelicans games. It's like, just put him out there. He tries harder than

everyone on your team. I don't know if they feel like there's a market for Bledsoe, but it feels like Bledsoe's already picked out another team. I'm just, he's not sure which one it is yet. Yeah. And I mean, he's taking like one free throw a game. So I don't know what you would do with him anymore. I like that they try to get Kyra Lewis in the mix, Alexander Walker, who I do still like. But they got better in this game today because they just opened it up and said, you know, what do we do? Like even Melly, who's not great, they put him in and then you didn't see Jackson Hayes, who. Yeah, if you have a ton of Jackson Hayes stock, you might want to call your broker. Sell his rookie cards. I'll tell you this, as a

Celtics fan watching, when he went with Mellie and Zion together, I was like, oh, fuck, he figured this out. This is bad. I hope we see Hernan Gomez again, or whoever. Please. Willie or Wacho? Do you know?

Willie. It's Willie. Good job. But they had Zion, Mellie, and Hart out there, who's playing harder than anyone in either team. And then Ingram. And then Lonzo. And it was like, oh, shit. He actually figured out the Ray-5 play. I wasn't surprised they were coming back.

And then the Zion piece. God damn, is he a beast. It's unbelievable. Like, he is so fucking hard to that play when he needed a bat when we were texting back and forth and it was like oh harrowball ingram three or now if they're smart they'll just go to zion and have them barrel the basket and then he took thompson it seemed like an offensive foul but then they show the replay and it's like now he's just he's just a freak like you kind of have to move backwards.

How about the look on his face? The look on his face is like, holy shit. Did that just happen to me? I got run over by an SUV. And then Zion had that other play when they threw him the pass on the left block. And he kind of caught it and did this 360 spin in the air as he caught the pass. He's unbelievable. He's honestly one of the six most fun guys to watch in the last five years.

I'll change the channel when he's out and then come back. Then come back. Depending on how the TV rotation is playing out. And usually, like, you know, I'll stay on anything close in the fourth quarter. So they'll take him out sometimes in the fourth quarter to bring him back in, which, you know, sometimes he's rolling. And if the other team hasn't figured it out, why give them the break from it? And I know everybody, NBA coaches are super regimented

in their minutes and how they want to sub everybody out. And, you know, your eight-man rotation to 10, depending on if you're good or bad, or if you have guys you're trying to keep happy. Like, I get some of that stuff. But he had a play in the Detroit game, I don't know, two weeks ago now. Josh Jackson had him on the left block,

but extended out. So it wasn't just block, shoulder, turn. Zion was far enough out where he had to beat Jackson off the dribble. He blew by him. Josh Jackson, okay, like a live perimeter guy who's pretty athletic. And he made him look like it was, you know, like, I mean, honestly, it was like, yeah, Zajunos galskis was on him or something i mean he went right past him so as i've seen them they've even run some stuff with him where they let him just off the ball like go iso and then the other bigs like holy shit like i'm supposed to stay in

front of this guy because his handle is really tight his center of gravity is so low his bounce is better than anybody else slash and kick passer too looking slashing kick passer too. That's the other thing. So when they went small, because I actually give Tristan credit. When I saw that lineup matchup at the beginning with Brad, I was like, okay, this is going to be interesting. And they did a good job with it, but it was also partly to New Orleans' own detriment.

And I think there's been too many times where Ingram is always like the default, out of timeout, let's run the play for him because he's kind of like our guy. But the Zion, bring the ball up, initiate your own play for him because he's kind of like our guy. But the Zion bring the ball up, initiate your own offense thing. I haven't seen an answer for it yet. And if your answer is doubling, his passing

is good enough that he's going to find the help. Well, I still needed an explanation for why they just don't go small with him. It's what we've been talking about forever. It's like, are they worried of because he doesn't rebound and that maybe it kind of forces him to rebound them because he's, I think, a weak rebounder. But now you It's like, are they worried of... Because he doesn't rebound, and then maybe he gets destroyed. It kind of forces him to rebound, though. Because he's, I think,

a weak rebounder, but now you're being like, hey, man, we're going to do this. It's going to open things up for you offensively. You're going to have to help us out with the rebounding. I think it'll actually make them better. Don't you think, though, that like... It's not like they're going anywhere anyway. Really, the goal would be is Jackson Hayes is a defensive five stretch

four on offense. You need a stretch. Are you making fun? Are you, are you provoking me right now? Is, is your next thing going to be,

they need to get Poku and Mo Baba. How about Poku? I'm writing off Jackson Hayes. It's not happening for that dude. No, I'm not. I'm saying the theory of what, you know,

they were probably hoping he could be, although he's more like a rim running athletic guy so you say when you take somebody with an eighth pick it's a theory you're kind of praying how about poku did you see the poku highlight this weekend poku's the best on our draft stuff i'm like this guy gets real pissed when he doesn't get the ball back. Yeah. From the international games that I watched. And he was in a G League game where he was on the fucking bench and waved his hands up in the air like he was in the corner, the opposite corner. Oh, I thought he raised it.

In Pogo's defense, which is rarely said, I thought he thought the guy was going to shoot a three. So he raised his hands because it was a three. I think you don't think so. Anyway, with New Orleans, one other thing with Zion, I just want to flag just to watch. And it's the same thing with Sabonis on Indiana. They have this play and it has to be when you're inbounding from the side where they're on the left block and they throw it to them like near the three point line. And then they send a guard and they pretend he's going to hand off. And then they just turn around and go to the basket hard. And it's the Sabonis go-to play. And when New Orleans does it with Zion, it's like the play is on steroids and PDs and caffeine.

It's unstoppable. I don't, cause you have to kind of respect the handoff. And then he turns and it's like, all right, well, good luck. That's, nobody's stopping this. And I just feel like they can run that play every game. Whenever anybody does from now on, LeBron is an NFL player because I almost sense that LeBron is like prepping us for how bored he's going to be

once he retires, that he's going to go on first take and do a week of how many catches he would have each season with the Cowboys. And it's going to be LeB retires, that he's going to go on first take and do a week of how many catches he would have each season with the Cowboys, and it's going to be LeBron as a Cowboy week. Zion as a defensive end would have been absurd. I'm serious.

The center of gravity, his weird, you know, maybe his arms won't measure out the way you'd want them to, but his first step in center of gravity, although I've got to love you, percentage of health guy. I heard you on with Barkley, which was great, and everybody should check out.

Thank you. But you put an 85%, 90% on Zion of where he was at athletically. I've got to watch a Duke game with you side by side with a Zion game because I heard that in the car and I went, how are you coming up? Oh, you just don't like when I do percentages. I don't say that I'm I dislike it. I just am amazed.

I'm a Duke. Yes or no? I think he looked more explosive against college kids. I can't fathom watching this version of Zion that we've seen the last couple weeks and being like, yeah, it's just a tick off though. Fair. That's what I say.

I'm going to walk back to take after what happened to that Celtics game today. Quickly. Well, so out of excuses, Stan Van Gundy, if this team, maybe this win saved their season, who knows? But I think we both feel like there's some real issues here.

Porzingis? Yeah. No, I think that's a good one. You're playing with one of the best five players in the league, dude. You've been in the league now how many years? He's in the MB draft or the year after? He was the year after. Yeah.

He's in the D'Angelo Russell one. Right. I don't know. Can he stay in the court and put up a 24 and 10 every night? Is that too much to ask? I don't know if he's out of excuses yet, but he's definitely reaching deep. Yeah. But is this health-based?

Because I don't think he's been bad. This was a guy, it was the Unicorn. I wrote the Unicorn column and it was Embiid, Giannis, and Porzingis. And I had them all on the same level.

And only two of them have survived. And, and from a Dallas standpoint, like, if he doesn't go up a level, that,

that team, what do you do? You kind of have no outs. It's a little, from a roster standpoint, you're just kind of screwed. Yeah, but a little from a roster standpoint you're just kind of screwed yeah but considering what they gave up and everything i mean people couldn't believe the knicks did what they did at the time and perzingis it's just a availability thing which is always going to be an issue for him forever i don't think he sucks i think we got sick of him being

unhealthy and then we just move on i mean this is the predictability of a new player's potential star timeline is the most predictable thing that we do as fans in the media. Giannis is going to start facing it big time. It's already starting to happen to him a little bit, where you're new, you're lovable, we hope you can be something we've never seen before, and then you aren't,

and then you may not have the playoff success that you want, and then we're like, eh, alright, we're turning on you. I mean, Przingis has never had playoff failures to even have any of us get upset about. But I think it's all of us turning the page on him in a very predictable way that hasn't really had too much to do with necessarily what his game is. It's what his game isn't.

He's just not healthy. He's 20.5 points, 8.2 rebounds a game. 35% from three. Leaves me a little cold. A little cold. A little cold. Leaves me a little cold. We're going to take a break,

and then we're going to... Russell is going to complain about stuff. All right. We saved this for the C block. So I'm just going to give some background to the listeners. You know, we're grumpy older guys. You, me, and House and a couple others were on a text chain the other day. And it basically led to, should we be worried about the NBA? Should we be worried about what this product is? Or are we overreacting because

we're just forgetting that the regular season is always pretty disappointing and the playoffs are way more fun. But the regular season is always choppy. Very rarely do you have like the playoff atmosphere and stuff like that. The case that we should be worried boils down to this. And it's not the player empowerment stuff. It's the actual quality of the product, which comes down to the resting and just the lack of cohesiveness across the board.

The way the game is refereed, which with the diving and the guys jumping into each other, Ingram did it today. He did a three, kicked his left leg out. Just bullshit, you know, European soccer kind of stuff getting rewarded. And then most importantly, the replay challenges and the fact that this continues to be a black hole for the league that is getting worse. They're not, it's not getting better.

It's getting worse. They're reviewing more stuff than ever. The games are slower than ever and yet they're still missing a whole bunch of shit and you saw last night, Golden State and Charlotte, one of the worst one minute sequences I think I've ever seen in a basketball game

and then the Pelican Celtics game today was a complete mess, they called a double lane violation that led to a jump ball there was another one where it was they thought Kemba got fouled. The Celtics maintained the ball and they were like, oh, actually he didn't get fouled. It's now a jump ball.

And the Celtics were like, wait, what did we do? We had the ball the whole time. Why do we have to give it up? They were mad because Tatum got the ball and said the challenge didn't come in until after Tatum was handed the ball by the official. So that's why they're extra mad. That replay, that review took over five real minutes.

Right. We had five replay reviews down the stretch of a really, really fun, awesome Pelican Celtics game. And the Melly review, by the way, which went to the Celtics, which I think is a bullshit thing. For decades, we've been fine in basketball where if you're playing

and somebody smashes the ball out of your hand, even though, you know, Mythbusters frame-by-frame camera work, you could see it out of your hand even though you know myth busters frame by frame camera work you could see it off of your fingertip lat but we've all operated okay that no wars have ever broken out over the fact that like hey that guy knocked the ball out of bounds it may have been off of me technically but you initiated everything on that and i mean i wonder people playing pickup games now where somebody smashes the ball out of your hand on the baseline and then he goes hey that was probably off of you

based on some of the reviews that we've seen in the league now? Let's talk about it for the next five minutes and figure out what happened. If the NBA were in charge of the 100-meter dash, they would stop it at 90 meters and then ask to see if the start was good. And then they'd say, okay, it was good. Pick it right up from 90 meters on. We've eliminated so much of the emotion while any of us like the games or any games. Like, think about how any of us like the games or any games.

Think about how bad this is at the end of close games where it's dead. The product is flat at the end almost all the time now. And if you were telling me you're pro-review because the goal is, hey, and I've heard this forever, just get it right. That's why we want reviews.

So you're against getting it right? Get it right then. Get it right. So there why we want. So you're against, you're against getting it right. Get it right then. Yeah. Get it right. Well, how about, so there's a play in the game in the fourth quarter. Time Lord blocks Zion on a layup and they call goaltending on, on Time Lord. And then they show the replay and he blocked it before the ball hit the backboard. They thought it was backboard. Then Time Lord, they showed the replay and it's like, no, I actually didn't. Oh man, that sucked. And guess what? We moved on and the game kept going. It cost the Celtics two points.

It was okay. So we don't care if we're litigating that, but I have to watch a block charge for five minutes. I have to watch Melly jump over Jalen Brown's back to knock a ball out of bounds. And then they have to stop the game for five minutes because they have to figure out as he was bowling over Jalen Brown from from behind the ball might have hit jaylen brown's

fingertip like what the fuck are we doing either yeah that ended up benefiting that one benefited the celtics though i didn't like that call i hated that call but either make these games three and a half hours and just review everything well or or just go back to where we were with the flow. And this is what we were talking about when we were watching all those Jordan games in, in April and May and June. And we were like, you know, it was really fun how the last quarter of the game, they just fucking played basketball and it didn't stop every two minutes. I think this is a real crisis. I think they're completely and utterly out of touch with what fans want. And, you know, I, like I saw Adam go on the jump for the thousandth episode and he goes and gets his back scratch for 10 minutes about how great the league is. The league is not great.

This is a real issue. Every fan I have in my life, this is something we talk about constantly. This is a real problem and they don't seem to give a shit. And I don't know why they don't want to fix it. If anything, it seems like there's more reviews than ever. The review thing is its own problem. The other thing that was so illuminating watching those 90s games,

and I'm not talking about the game being better then, because I think we've been saying it for years now, the shot making in this league is stupid. The shots guys can make. Kyrie's a guy every now and then you're like, alright, am I appreciating this enough? Kyrie will have the most coordinated

player of all time. I've never seen a better small finisher. Iverson people come at me whenever I say it. I've been saying it for years. The career at the rim, it's 61% for Kyrie. It's 57% for Iverson. Iverson had three peak years early on where he even hit 70% of his shots at the rim at one point.

And you could say, hey, the league got smaller, so Iverson had bigger guys to deal with, all that different kind of stuff. Kyrie's getting better and better. Kyrie's numbers are going up at the rim. And whether it's the coordination, it's the English, it's every single angle, it's either hand, it's just special. And there's so many guys in this league, even though I think, you know, the three-point barrage has led to a lot of guys being like, should I take my

sixth three in the corner, even though I'm hitting 30% of these? Yeah, I have to, because that's the game now. There's some special, special ability that we've never seen before as people evolve, basketball players evolve, and it's packed. The depth of stars is incredible. Some of that can be a little false statistically, but I just don't understand how the people that are in charge of this league that you and I love, all right? We sound like we're bitching,

but we're doing this almost as like, hey, do you guys not get this? That the secondary fan, the tertiary fan, are like, man, I'm kind of sick of watching guys complain every fucking call. Every call is a meeting. That Lakers game when they lost on Saturday night. And what was that?

Was it the Heat? The Heat game. Lakers Heat, yeah. And even the announcers are like, man, the Lakers are like wearing these guys out. So it's the complaining. It's the reviews. But I think the most fixable thing, Bill, that I don't understand why they don't want to fix because they fixed it with other things.

I actually think there's a little less flopping in the league than there was when we had just everybody diving in front of everybody and then falling down. The rip-through was fixed where it was Kobe and it was Durant. Start the ball on one side. If your hands are down defensively, then rip through. But now we're letting players run into screens that don't even have the ball

and fall down. We're giving them that call. The Trey Young stuff is well-documented, but to have him just be side-by-side with an offensive player and then bear or the defensive player and barrel into them and then throw the ball up. Um, why we let, why, why we let some of this backup stuff, not just the crab dribble, but there's just all these calls. You go, Hey, you know what you could do? You could just stop fucking calling all of it. And the player adapts. It's not the player's fault. It's that it's evolved to allow these, these plays because so the players pick up on it. I'm like, Hey, look at this shit that I'm getting away with. And then everybody goes for it. I don't know why the league just doesn't get together and say, we need to fix these things because it's gone too far the other way. Can you imagine in football if somebody was rushing the passer like JPP and the guy put

his hands on him and JPP just died backwards and fell down and then they started calling it on flags and then it would be like him going back to the huddle, like basically laughing. This is the only sport other than soccer where people get away with bullshit stuff? And it just seems like everything is geared toward basically protecting the offensive guy, allowing him to get more and more tricks. Even that stupid rule where it's like if the guy jumps to go block a three and he lands in the space, now that can be a foul. And we're moving people's abilities to just run out at shooters versus like, you know, the dangerous shit where some guys will actually intentionally stick their foot under somebody's motion as they're coming down. By the way, the landing area thing wasn't a big deal for like 70 years until you started calling it when you can tell when a guy kicks his legs out when he doesn't.

So when you're saying we're doing this protect the shooter and you're like, okay, but you know what else you let happen is now we're allowing two and a half steps, a gather and two steps backwards on a jumper, which was never what it was. It was two steps towards the basket. So you can carry, which is fine. You can travel again, which is fine. You can do all sorts of stuff. Like I'm not doing the, Oh, you know, every, anytime I meet somebody like, Oh, I hate that league. They travel all the time. You're like, whatever, dude, you know, like who gives a shit? I'm not doing the oh you know anytime I meet somebody like I hate that league they travel all the time you're like whatever dude you know like who gives a shit I like another sport but if you're allowing the shooter to have this

this landing area that he never really needed before other than Bruce Bowen and Zaza you know like other than a few guys every every who were intentionally doing it they were waiting for the guy to jump and then getting as close as possible and putting them in danger i get it but now i i don't i don't

i'm i'm just frustrated because i i'm sure i watch probably as much as like you watch as much as anybody and i'll have moments or games or just decided where all it is is i'm tricking you then you're gonna trick me and then i'm tricking you. Then you're going to trick me and then I'm going to trick you. And then when I don't get the thing that I tried to trick, because I got it 30 seconds ago, now I'm going to talk to the ref for a minute. And so I've already gone too long and I sound negative. It's just that I care. It's that I care. And I wish the people that were in charge would say, Hey, this isn't a good look. Let's start going back the other way. And if it's going to piss off some of the players for a little while,

that's fine. But I don't really even blame the players because they're just doing how they're being officiated. Then the default now is anytime somebody, some sort of thing happens and the guy doesn't agree with it, he turns to his bench and does the finger circle over his head.

If you have enough juice, the coach will be like, I probably have to review it because he's our best player. Listen, I know a lot of people in my life who love the nba not one of them likes this stuff that's my informal spit pull whatever you call when i see a writer defend this stuff i'll be like what what i'll be like why do you why do you like this you You like this? It's really weird. The last time I remember a real crisis with the league, and I remember this back when my fingers used to work and I could write columns, was the 06 playoffs.

And the ref thing was completely out of control. This was what- The Dwayne Wade thing. It led to the famous thing. But before that series, I wrote about my big fear for the series was it was going to become the litmus test for this ref fiasco that was going on. And it was right because it was like Shaq and Wade, two hardest guys to defend, to officiate in the league. And it basically game to game,

you could basically decide how to officiate them. And the other team will have no idea until the game's going on. And it's like, well, you could call everything against Shaq or nothing. Wade goes flying it all the time. And I had a bad feeling and it was borne out. It was a disaster. And they spent the next four years, especially after the Donahue thing, which was a year later, being like, we have to fix this. We have to get better. We have to have more accountability, all that stuff.

And they tried to do some good things. Now it's swung too far. And I think these guys over and over again, just assume like, well, whatever call I make, it's, it's probably going to get reviewed anyway. You know, it's to me, they, the refs seem more tentative and unsure of themselves that Golden State Charlotte game last night. Now I know Mark Davis was the crew chief, probably my least favorite ref. Um, and then he had two guys with them who were brand new and they completely fell apart, completely lost control of the game.

That was an aberration. You don't normally see stuff that bad, but in general, it's just game to game watching these fourth quarters and knowing like there's three 30 left, honey, when can we leave? Oh, we got to wait another 40 minutes. Cause it's these three and a half minutes are going to take 40 minutes between all the replay things. It fucking sucks. And they need to fix it. I don't know what else to say. I don't know who's on the other side of this.

I don't know because there'll be people that listen to me like, oh, you know, it's not even an anti-player thing. It's just, remember when the league tried to- The players are the best they've ever, they've been in 25 years.

We have the most talent we've ever had since the 90s. Do you remember like 15 years ago when they were like, okay, we need to figure out a way to stop this complaining? And they just said, we're going to start finding it. And technicals. And then I remember Chauncey getting one early, and he was like, what?

And it just didn't work. They gave up. They just gave up. And so, I don't know. I would love to have Silver in an honest moment what he would think, because I can't fathom a guy that's been around the league for decades

would disagree with anything we just said. But I don't think he can, at least not publicly. It's a league that has been resilient about fixing issues with the quality of play over the years, right? Like when they added the three-point shot, really smart move. In the 2004 or 2005 range, when they changed some of the

zone defense stuff, they changed some of the hand checking because they realized they were headed down a dark path with how the game was being played with some of those Pistons, Pacers, playoff games. In the mid-2000s, they really did try to fix some of the officiated thing. I guess what we're both trying to say is this is a crisis. I'm not a hyperbole guy. I really not. I really feel like there's something wrong here and I don't understand why they're not trying to fix it. So I don't really know what else to say.

I don't, I, I love watching basketball as much as I ever have, except for the last four minutes of the games, which are more frustrating than they've ever been. Yeah, which is supposed to be the whole reason we watch. I enjoy first quarters more than fourth quarters, though. Because first quarter, it's like, oh, these guys are just playing.

Fourth quarter becomes, we're in a fucking courtroom. It's like a few good men. You're bringing Colonel Jessup, Lieutenant Weinberg. Let's just, like, fucking argue about shit. Yeah, but it's not even that, because that was easy to figure out. It's like Judge Judy, where you're like fucking argue about shit. Yeah, but it's not even that because that was easy to figure out. It's like Judge Judy where you're like, she didn't pay rent, Judy. And Judy just doesn't like the vibe coming from the landlord because of some electricity stuff.

And then Judy sides for the defense. And you're like, what? I'm okay with replay when it's like, was his foot on the line during that three? Well, we reviewed that during the commercial and we realized that three is actually a two. Did that shot come after the shot clock? Oh, we looked at that quick. If you can't figure it out in 20 seconds, fuck it.

Like tennis, I was watching the Australian Open. Tennis figured out replay in the best possible way and basketball has figured it out in the worst possible way. And that's all we should say. All right. We're going to talk LeBron MVP. Take one more break. All right. Sorry. Sorry we're very complaining here in this part of the podcast, but there's one other thing we want to rant about.

Cause this bothers both of us. Cause I heard it today with, with the ABC crew talking about LeBron or his last night, Saturday night, when Van Gundy and Jackson do the whole, how has LeBron not won the MVP in eight years? This is something we hear over and over again. It was the Russell Wilson thing this year. Yeah. People get really agitated that LeBron hasn't won the MVP. And LeBron has definitely poured some gasoline in the fire with it. And it's turned into this storyline that unless you actually do some homework and look up the facts, you can be like, oh, that's crazy. How can he not be the – this is – it's a conspiracy?

What's going on here? Russell and I are just going to go through the years because we never want to hear this again from announcers when we're watching a basketball game. So LeBron went back-to-back in 12 and 13. 2014, Durant wins the MVP. He had 119 of 125 first-place votes. 32-7-6, he averaged. 32.7 rebounds, 6 assists. He played 31-22 minutes.

His team was 59-23, even though Russ missed 36 games. LeBron was 27-7-6. His team went 54-28. Nobody left that season thinking LeBron was the MVP. I'm nobody rational, right? 2014, Durant. Do we have any issues

with the Durant? No. No one was going I can't believe Durant got this instead of Le any issues with the Durant? No. No one was going, I can't believe Durant got this instead of LeBron at the time. Not one. So cross that out. There's year one. Year two, Curry.

Curry wins, gets 100 of the 125 first place votes. His team went 67 and 15, was by far the best team in the league. He averaged per 36, 26, 9, and 5, shot 44% from three. He made a record 286 threes and was the fulcrum of this fucking awesome team that everybody loved. LeBron went to Cleveland year one,

rocky year. Remember, he took a break at one point. 25, 6, and 7, missed 13 games 53-29 people didn't even think he was the second best player that year can we cross that year off are you okay with that yes 2016 Curry was the unanimous MVP

they won 73 games he averaged 35-7 402 threes made a record that will never be topped Kawhi was our second place finisher and lebron was right behind him kawaii was second because the spurs won 67 lebron had a good season that year he finished third three votes behind uh kawaii but his coach was fired halfway through the season i'm pretty sure you can't win the mvp when your coach got fired halfway through the season. Are we okay with Curry?

The problem, first of all, it's also Durant hadn't won one. So the media shifts into story time as quick as anyone. And then Curry is new on the scene at 26 and they have this remarkable run. And then he's way better the next year. So, you know, his win share that year was the highest in an eight-year MVP run the second time he won MVP. So it was kind of one of those deals where because he had gotten it the year before and you're like, what are they not going to give it to him then when people were wondering how many games they were going to win?

Again, he was unanimous. 2017 was the Westbrook versus Harden versus Kawhi. Russ ends up winning with the triple-double. Harden was 29-8-11, finished second. Kawhi had the advanced metrics case that year, and the Spurs were good. He finished third. LeBron was fourth.

He averaged a 26-9-9 on a really good Cavs team that finished 51-31. Are you okay with how that turned out? Obviously, Westbrook winning the MVP is absurd. But if it had been Harden, Kawhi, Russ, LeBron, whatever, do you feel even four years later, LeBron should have been in the top three that year? Yeah, that year, I don't think LeBron was really even part of the discussion.

Part of the story embracing, because I can remember too, each year, even though I don't have a vote, I can remember, okay, this was the lead up to it. That was Durant left. People were mad at Durant. Westbrook stayed when people were trying to put Westbrook in a Lakers uniform. And he stayed. And it was like, hey, Westbrook gets it. He's our guy.

Small town. He doesn our guy, small town. He doesn't need anything else. And he's got a triple-double. But we were not as in tune to realizing how Westbrook's usage rate and absurdity led to a triple-double because he was still so athletic at 28. His game in the system, yeah. Yeah, we didn't really...

He got us. He got us on that one. Didn't get me. I voted for him second. No, good for you. You brought it up a million times. There was a million and one right there. Right.

But LeBron, the point is, this wasn't a Westbrook shouldn't have won, or LeBron should have. He was not in the discussion. 2018, he finished second. James Harden finished first. Harden had 86 first place votes. LeBron had 15.

Harden was 30 points, nine rebounds, five assists. Houston was 67 and 15. LeBron averaged 28, nine and nine. And it was a weird Cavs team. A lot of trades. That was Jay Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Jordan Clarkson, Larry Nance, Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson. Dwayne Wade was there for a while. It was just a revolving door. The Cavs were 50 and 32. So this is the

first one we've said. So we're now in the fifth year where he didn't win the MVP. Where I'm willing to at least hear the case. I still feel like we left 18. Harden was the best player on the team that was by far the best team. He was special offensively. And I'm still good with the MVP. Is there a case for LeBron this year? I don't personally think there is, but I'm willing to hear it.

That team coasted. They were... That's how I felt. I'd love to give it to LeBron over Harden, trust me, but I don't think you can when it's a 67-win team and they were the only team trying to go with the Warriors.

And that's... This is where we mentioned, this is a regular season award. It's a reward for the 82-game regular season. Although this year it's shorter. It's 72 games, but 82-game regular season. Although this year it's shorter. It's 72 games. But you're just supposed to vote on who had the best regular season, who meant the most.

You know, there's all these variables. Who meant the most to one of the best teams? I think Cardins should have won that year. I stand by it. 2019, LeBron went to the Lakers, basically took the year off. Giannis wins. We don't even need to talk about that one. 2020, we talked about it a lot last year.

Giannis had a huge lead. LeBron was catching up, and then the pandemic happened. Could LeBron have won the MVP if the season was four weeks longer? Yeah, probably. But it wasn't. I think he lost it because of the stop.

Because I remember it was our last normal pod. And they had just played each other. And we were all over it. And you were starting to see voters talk about it. Where it was going to be a let's get LeBron one more deal. And when they came back from the bubble, all that momentum was gone. If it had been a normal regular season, I think there was a real sentimental vote. But there's a lot of people that are analytically based on this, too, that we probably don't see on TV as much that do have votes that would have looked at.

I think there was all the numbers were like really impressive. And then there was one gap defensively there where you couldn't really keep LeBron in the same conversation as Giannis. And I'm not saying it was every defensive number. I think it was one specifically. And then, you know, if you really want to dig into it, you would say LeBron for good reason, defensive matchup wise, you know, he's not exactly going after the top guy all 82 games because, you know, he doesn't need to, and it's better to preserve. Giannis was on the best team. he averaged 30, 14, and 6 he won the defensive player of the year

he's probably not going to win it again he probably won't so which sounds I know ridiculous but no he's not getting it this year people are out there it's not going to matter do you think it's LeBron this year right now I think it's wide open

I think Embiid has a real chance and probably some other guy that we're not seeing yet. That we're not seeing yet? You think a third of the way into the season, we're not sure? No, there's a bunch of people lurking.

It's LeBron or Embiid. I think it's too early to say that. I disagree. If you look at, I went through some of the plus minus stuff because I don't know if it was KOC or, or who it, it might've been,

uh, Kirk Goldsberry, who's doing some of the ratios of defensive impact and also offensive stuff overall. And like Bron, LeBron was like way over there, but I also wonder how that plays into defensive assignment. But if you go on some of just the plus minus stuff,

LeBron's in a completely different category, but the only one that's even close to him is Steph. But he's like a point better in overall box score stuff than Steph is, and then there's a huge gap to even number three. So Embiid's got some work to do on that. If that was what you were looking at. No, the reason I say it's open

is there's still two-thirds of the season left, basically. Somebody could get hot for two weeks. LeBron could get hurt. Embiid could get hurt and beat could get hurt. Yes. Yes. There could be a kidnap. Yeah. I'm saying right now it looks like those three, but I do those two, but I do feel like there's five lurking. So basically our point is we don't want to hear the thing of Ben about how ridiculous it is that he hasn't won because it's a regular season award. He's always cared about the titles and the playoffs more. And he's always conserved

his body during certain stretches to try to win last year. He didn't, he went always cared about the titles and the playoffs more, and he's always conserved his body during certain stretches to try to win. Last year, he didn't. He went all out. This year, it seems like he's going all out. He did kind of take it easy last night. It's a lot like the Oscars because you'll sit there and think about somebody's career and you go, how the hell did so-and-so never win? Adrian Brody won the Oscar?

Yeah, it's what happens, but you go the totality of it. I think where LeBron is is more important, where he was the totality of it. I think where LeBron is, is more important. Where he was the best player of that decade. And it didn't, you can say the MVP is whatever, but he still was the best part of the decade. And I would say that's more important. Here is the one MVP that I think,

if you're going to do the LeBron MVP thing, the one that should be brought up is 2011, the first Miami season. That's the one where, not only am I willing to hear a case for it, I actually regret how I voted. That's the one time in the last, I don't know, I can't remember when I wrote my first MVP column, but that's the one vote where I just feel like I didn't vote correctly.

Derrick Rose, you were hyped up. New kid, cities, from Chicago. He means so much. He's so valuable. Don't throw those advanced metrics at me. He was the best player on the most important team. Blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, you know, Miami was a three-man team

that year. LeBron was fucking incredible on both ends. And he should have won five straight MVPs is how it should have played out. It's the Rose story, like, because LeBron had gotten two. And then it's like, who else can we give it to? Well, he wasn't winning after the decision. He wasn't.

People weren't going to vote for him. Here's the vote that year. Rose had 113 first place points or first place votes. Dwight Howard had three. LeBron had four. Kobe had one. Those were your first place votes. Roseight Howard had three, LeBron had four, Kobe had one. Those were your first place votes. Rose was like a landslide.

And now I think if we had the numbers that we have now, because we had them then, but people didn't really use them the same way. There wasn't as much award shaming back then. I think LeBron wins. I think LeBron, the victim culture thing with LeBron,

people would have felt bad for him way earlier with the decision or being too mean to him. He was just trying to choose. If the decision happens now, there's none of that. I mean, very limited. I mean, obviously Cleveland was going to be upset because you're going to be upset when you're emotionally attached to your superstar and now your team doesn't

have a good of a chance. But LeBron, historically, you'll go back and be like, that was ridiculous, the amount of shit that guy dealt with just for leaving in free agency. Well's the irony of this LeBron sucked in the playoffs he completely fell apart in the finals so he beat you know when we talk about like oh this guy won the MVP and then his team sucked in the finals I think retroactively 10 years later either him or Wade should have won the MVP the case for Wade would have been he was just as important on that Miami team, maybe like 5% less,

but was the one that convinced Bosh and LeBron to go there. Maybe we should have factored that in. GM votes? So is Durant going to win MVP this year? Maybe, exactly. Maybe that should factor to Durant's MVP case. Anyway, big picture point.

If you're talking LeBron MVP, he won four. And if you're going to say he should have won another one, it's 2011. And I accept no other candidates. He was not the MVP last year. I'm sorry.

He just wasn't. And whatever happened in the playoffs. He might have won it. But see, the only thing you could say about last year is if you went by, and we remember these conversations because we've had them for months leading up to it every time, whether it was your podcast or me doing a radio show. He ran out of time. It wasn't his fault. I can go the historical like momentum behind each one of them and the only one

he's really even i think close on would have been last year because you could see the let's get another one because going back to the curry ones especially the second curry year it wasn't crazy in the moment to say hey steph curry's the best player in basketball but yet there's a difference between who's having the best season and who's actually the best player. And that's why LeBron and those dudes who have his back took it so personal because they're like, look, do you actually think that that little dude could carry a franchise the way I could? And LeBron was right. And LeBron was right. I like Steph as much as anybody you're ever going to have in this podcast.

We've been over it. But that was a moment where it was LeBron being pissed off. But again, like LeBron, you go to him and be like, look, he had a better season than you did. He won the MVP. But the stature thing, the player of the decade deal that you keep bringing up, which is important, there have been like three second act reminders from LeBron,

including this last run with the Lakers, where you go, you actually think there's another guy that's at my level? Like, I started to do it with Giannis. I started to do it with Kawhi. And then by the time the whole thing comes around again, I'm like, why the hell would I ever really bank on anyone other than him? And that's why he's so scary again this season, even though they suck on offense and the Lakers can't shoot right now. And I thought LeBron on Saturday night was like, just out of it. And I don't care. None of it matters because if he's healthy and it's the playoffs, nobody can carry a team like he can still, which is the craziest thing I've ever seen in this league that year 18, this is who he is. And that's why I think he wins this year.

It's the regular season MVP. Just got to remind people that it's not, it's not, hey, we voted for who the best player of basketball is this year. It's like, who is the most valuable player during the regular season?

Are you going to bring this up to Breen when you have him on? It wasn't Breen. Are you going to bring it up to Mark Jackson? It was Van Gundy. Van Gundy was the maddest.

I would love to argue about this with Van Gundy. I wish this was the case with movies where Leo DiCaprio makes a movie and he's good in it, but he doesn't win the best actor Oscar. And then he has like 20 people in the media who are like,

oh, Leo got boned over again. He's, how is he only won one best actor? This guy, blah, blah, blah. It's like, all right, this is just how it goes we vote every year i feel like lebron's due then for a revenant type deal here because that's what's going to happen if you had mark jackson on do you think he'd say bill as great of a player as lebron james is he's an even better person he's an even better human being i want you know what from now on that phrase and it's

not just mark jackson until you're willing to say he's a great player but kind of sucks as a dude you know what i'm saying so like unless yeah unless you have one time that you're going to tell me hey this guy's pretty good from outside but man is he suck like don't get a fucking house with this guy in the cave um then i never want to hear i never want to hear he's a great player followed by he's even a greater human being because there's no frame of reference if we do it with everybody then how special is that and i'm not just talking about mark jackson i'm saying anybody that coaches do it a lot in college former coaches do it a lot like oh so and so and his lovely wife and on and on and on. I want to hear

a guy go, hey, you know what? Good program. Wife. Real pain in the ass. Before we go, belated All-Star stuff. I did some All-Star stuff in there. I did not have Zach Levine on my All-Star team. What? I have a whole Levine thing for you. That's the only thing I want to do.

I did All-Star with KOC last week, and I put Drew Holiday on there. And now we're doing reserves, I think, Tuesday. And the one I would change is Levine's good. He's been good offensively. I think he sneaks on as my 12th guy. If I had to do it over again, I'd bump Holiday and put Levine on.

And I know we've made fun of Levine as a good stats, bad team guy, but I do feel like, over and over again this season, I've watched him go toe-to-toe with different really good players. It's like, okay, I'm the best player on my team, and let's go toe-to-toe, and he's been able to do it. So he begrudgingly and belatedly kind of won me over, and I would put him on.

Because the Bulls are frisky in these games and they're a mess. Well, I don't think they're a mess anymore though. I think at the beginning of the year, you know, first impressions are tough because there's so many of these teams that made those first impressions. We were so excited to watch anything, you know, for us that they're that into it. And the Bulls look like, oh my God, you know, they're going to win a game and they're basically a 500 team and Kobe White's been better. You know, they've missed marketing for half the season.

They're closer to Wendell Carter. I meant they're a mess. Like, they don't, they can't seem to keep all of their guys on the roster that they care about. Like, marketing's been out for a while now. Wendell Carter was out earlier. So on and so on. Like, we just haven't seen their full team.

Thad Young's been great. I feel like Thad Young is, like, not, I don't. He's only 22. There's something that can trade for him. Yeah, there's room to grow there with Thaddeus. Look, Zach Levine, and it's fair. He was a horrible decision maker earlier in his career. You want to talk about first impressions?

Yeah. To then he was a bad decision maker. And then he was big stats. Didn't really mean anything. He's a different guy this year. He is. The stats bear it out. The decision making bears it out. I don't know that He's a different guy this year. He is. The stats bear it out. The decision-making bears it out.

I don't know that he's a plus on defense, but the effort, the want to, is different. And I'm telling you, he has stretches where I throw them on. And whatever the first tier of shot-making ability is, he's in it. He is now. I mean, the three-point shooting is, you know, there are times in the past I'm like, okay,

he's shooting it better than he ever has before. 38% to 43%. Here's what I love. Long twos, granted, his rookie year was a while ago, just a year in college. Long twos were 30% of his shot selection his rookie year. Speaking of just, like, whenever you watch him in a story, you're like, dude, do you realize, like, there's other guys that have been playing in the league a couple years, only 10% of his shots now are long twos. There's still going to be that decision where you wish it were a little bit better. They were up a couple possessions two nights ago.

I think 124 left on the clock, 14 left on the shot clock, so still some time to burn. He takes a long three off a screen, and you're like, man, it wasn't a great shot. You didn't run the shot clock down. There's still going to be little moments in that, but the rest of it is such an improvement for him. And the East is so muddled in the middle. I don't care if there are a couple games under.500. I'd put Zach on it because I really think when he's going right now,

he's actually one of the scariest players in the league offensively. I actually think that's how much I think of him now because I'll admit it took me a long time to buy in, but he's just that much better this year. He is. It's not like I'm late to the party on this, but the shot making is impressive, but it's way more efficient than it's ever been.

I'd like to apologize to Kevin O'Connor. He was on this train early and I mocked him. Oh, the Bulls are a nine seed right now. Thanks for leaving me off the all-star thing though I'm not being sarcastic No, I know you don't like that stuff That's why I got somebody else I know it bothers you and the whole thing

Yeah, the Bulls The Bulls are somehow Two games behind the Celtics The team that needs to trade for Thad Young To help their roster Why wouldn't the Bulls just keep Thad Young and maybe make a move of their own? I'm in on Levine. I apologize. The other one is

I mentioned I gave my theory last week about Mike Conley that I think it's better for him if he doesn't make the all-star team and he goes down in immortality as every time we mention the best guy in the league at this point who who has made an all

star team yet we go, it's like Mike Conley and he's just, his name gets to live on a hundred years later. I don't want him to make the all-star team. I would rather he had that title. Where do you stand on Mike Conley being an all-star because it's somehow become the most important all-star conversation. Um, didn't he have like the, by far the best plus minus in the league sure and they were the best team in the league but he's gonna make it over Mitchell like that's absurd he can't make it over Mitchell Gobert

and Mitchell have to make it so basically if Conley makes it you have to have three jazz on the all-star team that's the only way he makes it is there another guard who are the other guards who are the other reserves? We'd only be doing it because people feel bad for Mike Conley. That would be the reason.

We would have Dame. I guess the bench would be Dame, Davis, Paul George, Gobert, Zion, Mitchell, and then you're telling me Mike Conley should basically get it over Chris Paul. I don't know how Chris Paul doesn't make the All-Star team. He has to be in the All-Star team.

He has to make the All-Star team. He has to. So Mike Conley, you're out. I'm sorry. But you have something better than an All-Star spot. You have immortality. You're always going to be mentioned. It's like, oh, man, it's like when Mike Conley never made it.

Somebody won't play, by the way. Somebody's going to call him sick for this deal. And then Mike Conley will get in anyway. Yeah, he's going to get in. Yeah. it's much better this way by the way somebody's gonna get in anyway yeah he's gonna get in yeah i think by the way every every like 75 of the comments i've heard on this like guys being like i don't want to go yeah when you said somebody is gonna not play did you mean all 24 guys uh all right mvp watch before we go so you have le LeBron 1 and B2, and then a drop-off to a murky list of guys

who are kind of lingering, sort of. Westbrook can keep this up. I'm kidding. Dame? Portland's good. Does anybody realize that Portland's good? If Portland finishes as like a four seed and they're, how many games are we playing?

72? So if they're, I don't know, 45 and 27, I don't know. Dame would have to be the mix. Chris Haynes made this case on my pod on Thursday. I thought it was really good. I was jealous of it. So yeah. Okay.

But to win it, to win it or to be mentioned. Just that he should be mentioned in the conversation. Barkley had Donovan Mitchell in there. I'll just, I'll say like my favorite shutdown of any... What are you asking? For this person to be win it or to be mentioned more and to make sure they lose? I don't get it. Well, you asked me who else... I said there was a list right under Embiid and LeBron who was in it. I just gave you Dame Lillard as a possibility. I'm going to give you Steph Curry. I'll give you Jokic. I don't think we can rule out Luka yet because I still think he could average 39 a game for three weeks

and Dallas could win 10 in a row. And I don't think, neither of us think Giannis is going to win, but I can't rule out a dude who does the stuff Giannis does every day. Giannis fatigue is the biggest thing against him. To say he's never going to win one is harsh. But I thought after Curry won the second one and they blew the 3-1 lead, I was like, I don't think he's ever going to win one again.

Because then you have to, after you've already won one, you have to be the best player in the league, and you have to have another season where you're going to be the best. And you kind of felt like Golden State was always going to kind of... And look, they went after it with more intensity in the final season before Durant than they did when they got Durant.

So, no, I don't think your list is wrong. We haven't mentioned anyone from the Nets. And that's going to be a mistake if this team keeps rolling. So they go in the murky list. Yeah. One of those dudes, maybe Harden. Alright, last thing. I didn't

run this by you. You don't even know we're doing this. The Sports Whisperer. It's a new segment. It's where we make a fan base feel better about things. Today we're going to pick Minnesota who just fired their coach Ryan Saunders. Not a lot of happy

times for the T-Wolves over the last how many years? Almost 30? Like 27? 28? Made one conference finals. They do never make the playoffs. They had David Kahn. It's an endless list. I thought we'd end the podcast

with saying some things that could make Minnesota fans better. I'll start. Anthony Edwards is fun. I like watching him. I don't know what he's going to turn out to be, but I think he's a fun pick. Should they take him to Melo?

Probably. Should they take him to Wiseman? Probably. But I do enjoy Anthony Edwards. I don't know what he ends up being. Could he be a guy that averages 25 points a game, two assists and three rebounds and has three dunks a game and his team never wins? Probably.

But I like the way he carries himself. I think he's incredibly athletic and there's enough weightish potential with him, Dwayne Weightish, that at least he's not a and there's enough weightish potential with him. Dwayne weightish that, uh, you know, at least he's not a bus.

So I'm going to start there. That's my first thing that makes Timberwolves fans feel better about themselves. I know it's going to sound nuts, but I've actually liked the way they played the last couple of weeks. Oh, there's another one. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. We're up to two things. Yeah. I didn't love the end of the Torontoonto game either um beasley took a contested three that even the announcers are like uh probably could have got better look there uh rubio got mad at jared vanderbilt i think no no no no it was uh it was mcdaniels the kid the rookie from washington who took like a weird shot rubio got pissed at guys get pissed at each other a lot at the end of some of these games. But I do think

they've actually, if you're a T-Wolves fan right now, you are in agreement that they played a little bit harder. But this is bubbling for a while. The Saunders part of it is a problem. I think Gerson is probably in some trouble there too. Perhaps. The problem

is right now, Bill. This isn't making T-Wolves fans feel better. Okay. You know, I like your Vanderbilt a bit. I liked some of the Jarrett Culver off the ball cuts earlier this season. Can I give you another one? I think Nas Reid

will have a moment on a playoff team at some point in his career. I'm going to give you one more. Malik Beasley, like pretty good contract. First scorer. Tradeable. I'll give you that one.

I'm going to give you another one. Six points tonight, 38 minutes. I think they have a chance to maybe keep their first round pick next year. I think they could be one of the, you know,

finish in the top three. I think it's something to... Here's another thing I tell you. You think you're the worst team in the you know, finished in the top three. I think it's something to, here's another thing I tell you, you think you're the worst team in the league. You're in the West brother. Yeah. You would,

you would smash the Pistons in a seven game. Yeah. You'd be like the fifth West worst team in the East. Uh, I'll give you another one. Although I don't know, the Pistons get up for big games. So they do. They're big game hunters.

Uh, here's another one that would make Minnesota fans feel better. I do think at some point, somebody is going to completely overpay for Carl Anthony Towns, and it might be the right thing for the franchise. Trade him for seven first round picks and swaps. You do one of those trades with a team that's panicking, and maybe that's a good reset button for you. I got to tell you, when I watch Towns, when did he start running like he's been playing 20 years?

He doesn't look like a 25-year-old guy. No. Yeah. He needs, he needs like a, like when they have those makeovers,

he needs like a basketball game makeover. I wish he would have just had four consultants to be like, hey, you realize you're kind of unstoppable when you go on the block,

right? He doesn't want to do that because he's such a good shooter. Look, I mean, Carl Anthony Towns. like, hey, you realize you're kind of unstoppable when you go on the block, right? He doesn't want to do that because he's such a good shooter. Look, I mean, we're not making Minnesota fans feel better. I do think they could trade, they could trade him for a lot.

Here's another thing that might make him feel better. So I guess Sacramento is on their corner with who feels worse about their NBA team for the last 20 years, right? It's those two.

Unlike Sacramento, Minnesota never blew a chance to take Luka Doncic. They don't have that hanging over them. How do you feel about your Bagley stock? He was busting his ass the other night. I'm not saying it's working, but there was some effort there.

I would have already traded for him. I'd have him and Mark and my team would be going nowhere, but I'd be so excited. Give me your top five reasonably obtainable Celtics wish. Mark one. Give me five guys you'd be like, yep, Aaron Gordon. Markanen. Markanen? Okay. Markkinen's

one. And it's not because he's a white guy, right? No, I think that he's not fair. I think they need a scoring, like one more score. I'm just looking at who are attainable scorers who can create a shot for themselves. Markkinen.

What would you give up for Vooch? Would you give up Neesmith? Straight up? I wish they could get Thad Young. I love that guy. But I think he's like almost borderline untradeable for the Bulls. He's like their unsung hero in these games.

Look, I've waited on Thad Young way too long. way too long. He's been in the league like nine years. He's been around, I think it's longer than that, dude. I think it's like, I'm out on, I'm out on Gordon. I'm out on, uh, on Fournier, DeRozan. What about Mo Bamba?

Would you talk yourself into Mo Bamba for a week? I, I would for the comedy, but I don't think he would make a big difference on the Celtics. I kind of want the Celtics to get Mo Bamba just to watch Celtics bloggers be like, okay, but if you actually look at his per 36. Well, he was the sixth pick. So we're out of things to make Minnesota fans feel nice about themselves? Yeah, I mean, look.

I think they're winning 26% of their games. I've watched the close of four or five of their more recent games. I go, they mean, look. I think they're winning 26% of their games. I've watched the close of four or five of their more recent games. I go, they're playing better. I do think they're playing better. They just weren't winning enough. I couldn't come up with anything else. Have you watched Jared Vanderbilt?

I kind of like some of his energy. He's okay. We're not ending with a bang here. The Rubio piece of it, not great. Yeah, but I'll admit at times, it's a hell of a lot better than D'Angelo Russell making your decisions or Anthony Edwards. They had that one game where I think it went to overtime

and out of the timeout, Rubio was doing a really good job dissecting the defense, and then they ran pick and roll with Edwards Towns, and look, Edwards three almost went down. Is there a rule change, by the way, that every last second shot attempt has to be a three? Has to. It has to be, right? They sent an internal memo to everybody.

Games tied. Has to be a step back three. Or it doesn't count. Let's end with this. I'm going to give you my Celtics panic meter for heading into the week. I'm an eight out of 10 right now. 8.

8 is high, but they're not very good. They're a 500 team, 30 games in. My dad said casually in a conversation, like, at some point, Tatum's not going to want to stay for this. And I was like, what? Really? Like, hit home. I just want to root for Tatum and Jalen for the next 10 years.

I don't want that to get screwed up. I like Time Lord lately. Hey, can we come up with, since we're back on this, we've got to come up with something, you know, where there's no gym corner anymore. There's no Game of Thrones. See, when do you start? Pandemic corner?

I have nothing. There's nothing interesting. I don't have anything. if you knew how much basketball i was watching here when i sent you guys videos of g league stuff i was watching i was like don't send this to them it's 11 a.m on a tuesday i think i think you should do can you do the thing you did for me when we were talking the other day about other parent corner about, about how your life's actually super normal compared to the people that have been stuck with their kids for a year. That'd be a fun way to end it.

Other Parent Corner. It's just not that interesting. It's really, it's pretty monotonous. I've left once in a year. You know, it's the same thing over and over again, which, you know, I've tried not to complain this whole time because I know that I don't have it. You know, I've, I've tried not to complain this whole time because I know that I don't have it. You know, there's far bigger things to complain about.

But you, you have a theory that people who are stuck with young children, that there, there's a whole new level of drinking going on. Yes. My, cause my buddies were like, are you getting after it? I was like, no, like there's nothing to do. Yeah. You don't understand. And then a couple of the circle of friends that I have that work in sports, like I can't

hang out with them. Right. So like if somebody is with a team, they're not going to hang out with me to jeopardize the team thought side of it. If somebody is in the media, you know, it'll be like infrequent in or out of season things. So it's been nothing. I wake up, I either tape the pod three, four days of taping each morning. I work out in the garage. I'll go go down you're like desmond and lost you're just like changing changing the

clock every day changing the clock every day you know reason you should just get all canned goods make it seem like like you're stuck in your house i did do that when everybody was big on that like everybody had a cousin from the pent. I missed those times. Yeah. Like get cash, water, and as much kerosene as you can. And so we have less experts tied into the Pentagon's thinking now. But I just don't think, I don't think, but yeah. So my friends were like, we're drinking all the time. I'm like, tell me about it. What's going on?

And like, I have pockets of friends in different neighborhoods where basically they've just decided from a social aspect that they were they were like look we gotta we just this is our crew and if that means a couple tequilas on a tuesday yeah who who we hurting right so they're having like garage parties and you get in the yard but like one guy passed out in the wife's shoe closet like during the week and so he got reprimanded a little bit and he's a good guy i mean he's got his shit together but he was like yeah he goes you know we started playing drinking games and next thing you know realize it's like wednesday at eight and it's not friday at midnight and you're like whoa i gotta i gotta still function here so um i don't have anything really interesting to say though so i I don't think my, my corner

would be, well, that's why I said it was other parent corner. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Secondhand stories about parents. Yeah. You just told one. Yeah. I do. I do feel like the people with the young kids are starting to unravel a little bit. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's big time. I mean, we are now hitting, we're now in month 12. Cause I just think it's big time i mean we are now hitting we're now in month 12 because i just think it's tough to get divorced during the pandemic but once everything's settled and you're on the other side of it's going to be like hey can you remember can you imagine resentment corner we could have people write in and be like i couldn't bring this up in february but well it's going to be like when we read about the swinging 20s.

We were growing up. Man, that seemed crazy. What was going on there? Did everybody just kind of lost it for a couple of years? I think that is going to be what happens when we come out of this pandemic. I've always been enamored with the 20s. Remember the 2021 and 2022? Man, we were fucking on one those two years.

I love that you brought up the 20s because I'm obsessed with that era. I have different time travel eras that I'd like to get into. Oh, this is good, yeah. Yeah. Maybe we could do time travel corner where we make an argument to time travel

to a certain time. All right, we'll do that next time. Because if you pick something too old, you know, just can't show up in a hoodie and some rag and bone jeans and expect to walk through Cheyenne in 1890. Like, who's this fucking guy? I think summer of

77 in New York would have been really fun. Just a lot of shit going on. I'll make the case for the next time we do this. All right. I like this. Time travel corner. Time travel corner next week. Hit Rosillo's Twitter if you have some suggestions.. Time travel corner next week. Get some, hit, hit Rosillo's Twitter. If you have some suggestions, he still looks at his replies.

Uh, Rosillo, you're doing podcasts Tuesday and Thursday. Tuesday and Thursday. Yeah. Unless you get hired to coach the Timberwolves. Um, I don't think the team would listen to me.

Probably not happening. That's it for the podcast. Don't forget about the rewatchables. Monday night doing Neighbors. And then I am back here on Tuesday. And again on Thursday. See you later in the week. I don't have feelings within On the wayside On the first sun never runs in I don't have feelings within