The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney to react to the Knicks-Pistons and Nuggets-Clippers playoff matchups on Thursday (2:22). Then, Bill talks with Joanna Robinson about TV shows in 2025 (48:24). Finally, legendary sportswriter Bob Ryan joins to talk about Anthony Edwards, the Celtics, and more! (01:27:00) Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson, and Bob Ryan Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is brought to you by Degree Deodorant. Grab the original Cool Rush at Walmart or Target today. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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for additional details. Must be 21 plus and President-elect states game prom called Win 800 Gamble or visit rg-help.com. Coming up, we're gonna talk NBA playoffs, television, and historical NBA. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by Verbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Verbo, you can save over $240 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston,

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Stay tuned for that. Readjust your schedules so you can watch the rewatchables on the Ringer Movie's YouTube channel or as a video podcast on Spotify. You can watch this podcast as a video podcast on Spotify. You can go to the Bill Simmons YouTube channel as well, where we have all the videos, stuff from the last six, seven years, this podcast. So, uh, I'm taping this before I went to Clippers nuggets, game six, which we're

going to talk about with Rob Mahoney. We're gonna talk about Nick's Pistons as well. Joanna Robinson, his podcast partner on Prestige TV. She came on with me to talk about the year in TV so far, because it's been awesome. We tried to do as unspoilery a conversation as we possibly could. And then last but not least, the great Bob Ryan.

I wanted to talk about a whole bunch of historical NBA stuff, 2025 versus guys from the past. So he graciously came on and we talked hoops. So it's a big, big podcast. First, our friends from the past. So he graciously came on and we talked to, so it's a big, big podcast. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, recording the top part of the pod. It's a little after 10 o'clock Pacific time. I just drove back from the Clippers Nuggets game six, which was quite an affair. Rob Mahoney is here.

Coopers dominated the entire game. James Harden was magnificent for three quarters. He was. It looked like they were about to put the game away seven times and it was just going to go into the 17, 18, 19 range. I was going to be able to drive home with six minutes left and start recording the pod with you. And then all of a sudden the Nuggets were within nine and they were within six and the PTSD with you. And then all of a sudden the nuggets were within nine and they were within six. And the PTSD could kicked in new arena, new energy, really good team.

It didn't matter. The crowd got fucking nervous and you could feel it. And I was getting flashbacks to 10 years ago, that Rockets game when they, uh, when they blew that 19 point lead and And they survived it mostly thanks to like a crazy Russell Westbrook play. A couple of them. How many excruciating layups is Russell Westbrook gonna miss this season?

I went with my friend Mike who I shared tickets with and we decided he was the MVP of the game because he did good stuff for both teams. Everybody had a positive interaction with him. It's true. Our guy balances the ledger. He knows what he's doing out there. So I'll tell you what I saw in person,

but what did you see on TV? What jumped out to you? I think the heart and elements for sure, but also this felt very much like the Nick Batum game, a game in which Batum completely changed the energy, completely changed the strategy. Tyloo finally pulled the plug on some of Chris Dunn's minutes in the second half, which the

series had been kind of building to that point over the last three games or so, to be honest with you. It felt a little inevitable. But once it happened, you could just, you could feel everything the Nuggets were trying to accomplish. It seemed uphill from that point, just from having Nick Petume on the floor. It was crazy. I don't think Chris Dunn played in the second half.

A lot of the people in my section had been calling for this for a while. Just basically go bigger, longer. But the thing I wasn't expecting was Batum had a bunch of reps on Jokic defending him. Now, we were playing blood sport rules tonight. I don't know if you noticed. I think there were less than 30 fouls total and it was the same both ways. So that was how it was going. I went to the Laker game yesterday. I think there was close to 30 fouls total and it was the same both ways. So that was how it was going. I went to the Laker game yesterday.

I think there was close to 50 fouls in that game and everything was a foul. This game, nothing was a foul and everyone knew it. Jokic, who was getting mauled every time he hit the ball, but he was also mauling other people. There was a couple of plays where he was just shoving baton backwards. He was shoving guys in the back to get rebounds. Like every, it was just full on warfare, which I would think would benefit the Nuggets,

but I thought the Clippers with their size and their physicality kept up with it. Yeah, you would think so, but honestly, I think when you allow them to be that handsy and that physical, this is the kind of series where if the Clippers can control the glass and specifically keep the Nuggets off the offensive glass for long stretches, it feels like they're in control of these games. Like they're going to win the turnover battle so

handily just by the nature of how they play and how Denver plays. If you can keep the Nuggets from clawing back possessions through any other means, you're going to be in pretty good shape to win the game. And so that's one area where the physicality really pays off. Not just, you know, battling Jokic to keep him off the offensive glass, but bumping and holding Aaron Gordon, bumping and holding Christian Brown, like bumping and holding Russell Westbrook, frankly. Yeah. So Harden comes out and you see it immediately where game five, he was terrible.

Game six, he's doing that accelerator thing that he has where it's the herky jerky, I'm going, I'm stopping now I'm going again. And he just had, he was yo-yoing a bunch of the Nuggets defenders. And so he's playing well, and Kawhi's playing well. And I think they both ended up with almost 60 points combined. Usually they're pretty hard to beat if both of those guys are going, but you're watching hard and just toasting everybody in the nuggets and it's like,

why don't you do this more often? And then what you realize is he had about 90 minutes of him and by the fourth quarter, that acceleration thing, it wasn't there anymore and Denver had him figured out. Lot of slow possessions, reminiscent of my Celtics. Just a lot of killing the shot clock so you can get a terrible shot with three seconds left like a corner three with a hand in the face and the Nuggets kind of clawed back. I'm trying to think what to take away big picture especially after going to two of these

games and I really do think the Clippers are slightly better and I don't think that's going to mean they're going to win the series. But I would say if it's three to three right now, but it's like 3.3 to 2.7. I think the Nuggets have to be super pumped that they have a game seven at home because I don't think they played that well as a team. They've certainly had their moments and they've had stretches where they felt really good and felt like they were clicking and playing their style. This game ultimately did not feel that way.

They're still walking the line in so many respects between Jokic being as aggressive as he needs to be to dominate some of these matchups. And particularly when the zone is out there, when Batum is guarding him, ordinarily when Ben Simmons is guarding him, although now he's kind of out of the series. He's gone.

Like RIP. RIP Ben Simmons, Chris Dunn, RIP. He had a good run. But those are possessions Jokic just has to bulldoze his way and brute force his way into baskets because ultimately the Clippers are gonna play off Russ if he's out there on the floor, they're gonna shrink the floor around him

but take away the passing lanes. And so Yoko is just gonna have to create tough baskets in crowds in a lot of these situations. And he has to do that against Zutu. And for all due credit, Zutu came up with some monster stops down the stretch of this game. Game-saving plays on the defensive end with all of that contact we've talked about, but

he knew the prescription. Like he knew what this game allowed and he played it to a tee. Well, it was interesting. It seemed like they were going to bench him down the stretch. I mean, but two was that good. It was crazy to think about. And we were watching on the bench. It was crazy to think about. We were watching on the bench. It was five minutes.

It was like five minutes left. There's a timeout and but, and zoo wasn't coming back in. And we were, we were like, wow, he's, he's pissed. Like he can't believe he's not coming back in. And then I think the Nuggets scored once and Tyler was like, all right, get back in. And then he made some big plays down the stretch. But I think this platoon piece is a really nice wrinkle for them on the road in a game seven, because a couple of things in their favor, one, Denver lost a game seven at home last year, right?

It was a year ago. Two, they're a six man team, maybe six and a half. I've actually kind of enjoyed the Deandre Jordan. Um, just a cup of coffee minutes I think I've actually been pretty effective But it's a six and a half man team and the sixth man is Westbrook who giveth and taketh every single game And I do think if Harden and Kawhi play really well If they stumbled into something or this platoon thing, this is a team that could win on the road And then you think the other hand

You're trusting James Harden in an elimination game seven. That's the catch, right? the set team that could win on the road. And then you think the other hand, you're trusting James Harden in an elimination game seven. That's the catch, right? And this is where I struggled to determine down the stretch of this game, in the fourth quarter as you mentioned, the acceleration wasn't there for Harden, the pace he was playing with, just the downhill determination to blow by

whoever was in front of him was not there. Is that because he's James Harden at this age, at this point in his career, and he doesn't always have it all the time through every game? Or was that them playing the clock basically, and trying to coast out a marginal lead against, you know, a run that the, like specifically Jokic was pushing the ball up court

and they were starting to create some pressure, and were they just trying to drain too much clock? I couldn't quite tell which one was going on, to be honest with you. My take would be he's like a pitcher who could get about six innings, maybe six and two thirds. But I thought the fourth quarter, I thought he wore down a little bit. He's making some weird decisions. Like they, you know, they, the nuggets had gotten a stop.

I think there was like a minute and a half left and they inbound the ball and hardened dribbles right into a double team. And Ty Lue has to burn a timeout. And it was like, you could see the double team coming seven miles away. And he just kind of fog headedly went into it. Right across half court too. Like literally the worst place to be double teams. And he had a couple of those down the stretch where you're thinking like,

is this just an old guy who's feeling the miles of the game? Or is this the James Harden stuff we've been watching for his whole career in big spots? Now, Kawhi, on the other hand, has come through in a ton of big spots. And I think he had a couple, I got this moments. But really this, the Coopers, that corner three, which Dunn couldn't make, I think it was 0 for 3.

And then Batum and Derek Jones together. I don't know what they finished with, but I looked at one of the timeouts and they were, I think four for 10 and those four threes they hit were the difference basically in the game, right? And they're two for 10 or one for 10. I think the nuggets probably pulled this up. The other thing it was a, it was a Michael Porter Jr. milk carton game. It was like, is he out there?

Oh no, there he is. It was one of those. And they finally yanked him and Russ got All his crunch time minutes It felt like they were trying to get him going in the second half and you just Could see like it was one of his classic no-show games like a game one He was probably due for one at this point in the series to be honest with you But the the three is like yeah Derek Jones is not gonna hit every night in the same way that Chris Dunn won't hit every night

and may not even be in the rotation anymore. But two of them I would expect to. But more importantly, I think the possessions that led to those threes and led to so many, I would say, kind of like random Clippers baskets where these chaotic offensive rebound tipped by Zou bounces off three guys' hands, goes through a crowd, it ends up with a random Clipper.

Those plays can seem really fluky, but when you're the team playing with as much effort as the clippers are playing with and you're as engaged and you're flying around the court, it felt like they were quicker to those balls. In part, because they didn't have to push it the other way so they can fight for it in a different way than the Nuggets can.

But I thought they just turned up every single one of those plays that they needed to. And then when you look at the total sum of all of them, that's like a 15 point swing in this game ultimately. Right, like the Russ missed layup, coming down on the other end, and ending up in a Norm Powell three, what should have been a four point game as a nine point game.

That's it right there. Right, like the chaos of these games decides them. And there's a real whole, I said this Sunday too, there's a real home court with the Clippers that I just can't believe exists. I know. You know, and it's not gonna to swing a game. Like they lost game four at home. It's not like it was deciding the game, but there's a real energy. And when, you know, the crowd really likes Norman Powell and when he gets going. Yeah. As they should. But when he hits a couple,

it's like an electric shock for the crowd. Like they're really, really, and that's probably when they get the most excited. And then the other one is Kawhi will have a couple of moments, is the stretches where he just like, he'll hit like three shots in a row or he'll hit like two shots and get a steal and block it. And he'll just take over the game for like three minutes. And I think the crowd now has a sense for when that's happening. Now on the flip side, you know, I think Yokoch had maybe 18 in the first half and finished with 25, but it's just continually terrifying at top of the key, whatever sort of, and they're, they're sending one guy, they're saying two guys, but Tom's just standing behind him, just whacking him on the side.

I always felt like he was going to score. So when every time he didn't score, they turned the ball over a block that felt like almost a miracle, I think in Denver, I don't know if they're getting some of those, some of those mauling calls on Jokic, but. And maybe that's where you don't get some of the Clipper role players delivering in quite the same way. Like when you were saying, you know, the Clippers are so hard to beat when Kawhi and Harden are both clicking at a high level. Obviously true, clearly true. Part of the reason it's true is

cause then it relieves the pressure. So only one of say, Norm Powell and Zubot have to be a big time scorer, right? It's taking some of the edge off those guys where they can just kind of fill a role. You go on the road, let's say Harden and Kawhi play well again, but now all of a sudden all of the role player shots are tougher.

Maybe the threes aren't coming quite so frequently. Like that's one of the trade-offs that just is really, really tough with road play, especially in a game seven. And we're about to get a game seven with two of the best postseason performers in modern playoff history in Kawhi and Yo Kitchen in particular. So whatever reservations we may have about Harden or Michael Porter Jr. or whoever else is involved in the series, I'm fucking psyched for it. I can't wait. Well, this was the dream for a bunch of different reasons, especially we would not have had basketball on Saturday. That's true. Group chat depends on that game setup.

How did that shake out that way? There were no contingency plans there? Where we're just not going to have games on Saturday, May 3rd, or whatever day that is? That was a thing that was going to happen. So the over-under on that game on FanDuel, I always love game sevens. And I think this is going to keep going down. I think the over today was two 13. The over for game seven is two Oh 4.5.

And I bet that goes under 200. Yeah. Cause game sevens rock fights, tense slows down. People don't really take chances in the same way. Every single thing is careful. Careful, ugly. You're not getting Derek Jones hitting four threes in the corner.

You're not getting any of that stuff. And, you know, a lot of it will depend on how much they're letting both teams get away with. I think the more they officiate the game, the better that probably is for Denver, because of the way Jokic plays. Do you think either of these teams is better than Minnesota from what we've seen for two weeks?

Now, the Minnesota thing's interesting because the Lakers just might be this incredibly flawed team that made Minnesota look really good. They have no center, they don't really have a point guard. They had Luca gets hurt halfway through game five and just can't guard anybody or bounce off anybody. I thought, I really thought he was a little compromised. LeBron wore out, I think after four games in Minnesota might not be as good as they looked last night. Who do you, if you had to rank the three,

who, how would you rank them? I think I might put the Clippers as the best of the three, even still. But it's very, very close. And then there's also the question of like, are we talking about head to head in a series versus sort of in a more abstract, universal sense? Ceiling upside, yeah. Ceiling upside, I think the Clippers are the most versatile of these teams. I think their defense can be as good as Minnesota's defense can be, but they have some qualities

in terms of their half court offense that feel even a little bit more stable to me and a little less matchup dependent, right? So I think there's just some things with the Clippers that I really, really like. And I love Ty Lue pulling the levers behind all of those things. Like I trust the flexibility of that roster

and I trust the people making the decisions even though one of them is James Harden in a game seven. Right, well, and I like how they adjust in a game and in a series, right? They'll try four, five, six things. They'll change rotations, not in a panicky way. Like, all right, we gave Ben Simmons a whirl, and he shot an air ball that went sideways, and we're not going to see him anymore now.

Yeah. Chris Dunn, they're just begging, they're leaving him open by 10 feet. Like, when it's 10 feet, maybe it's time to get somebody else. But I do think they have two lineups that I think really work in a muck it up game seven. One was that one we saw tonight where they just went long, right, with Batum.

The shortest guy was Harden, out of everybody that was out there. And then that other one was that one they played near the end of game four with the shooters when they did the zone. And it was just the all offense lineup with Bogdanovich. And I think they have their typical lineup, but I think they have two levers to pull

if the game gets weird, whereas the Nuggets, it's basically like, let's throw in Westbrook and just kind of see what happens. It's like watching somebody light fireworks in their backyard. It's like, just don't, try not to hit the house. Please don't shoot this up in the air. And he's their fireworks gathering that they don't have a lot of moves. It's like, is Jamal Murray going to have it? Is Michael Porter going to show up? Are we going to get

good Michael Porter? They don't really know what they're getting. Can I talk out of both sides of my mouth about this a little bit? Yeah. I think the Clippers are the better team and I think they're going to lose in game seven. So things working against them, road team, game seven, James Harden in a huge game. Yep. Um, Yokech is the best player in the series. Although Kawhi, maybe he has something to say about that. Um, the fact that Porter was so bad today makes me think he's going to be good in

game seven, because that's basically what we saw in the game four that I went to on a, on Saturday where he was awesome and rebounding and playing with a ton of. Athleticism. So I went, I'd bet that we're going to subtly call him out and challenge him. And I really liked the way Murray is moving and just looks in general. Like if he had played this way, uh, in the, in the summer Olympics, I think Canada would have won the gold medal. It was, he did the opposite, but they've been trying to get him to play that way

in the Olympics for a long time. Right. I know the ships probably said, I don't think that's going to happen, but I will say this Clippers win is particularly impressive in that way because Jamal came out hot. He was, he was scorching right from the jump. And it's, it's hard in those Jamal Murray games to then put him back in the box to kind of tamp down his, his sort of fire starter scoring.

I thought they really got a handle on him. They made him into more of a passer in a way that yeah, opened up some shots for other people, but ultimately took some of the momentum out of the Nuggets offense. So big picture legacy stuff. Let's do a little legacy. Pre game seven legacy. Yeah. A little, a whiff of a legacy here.

Yokelj losing two game sevens at home and back to back years when he's the best player in the world. Would not be great. Not awesome. Um, the Nuggets blowing two game sevens at home in a row is a pulsating sign that something now needs to happen. Right? They lose this.

It's like now something, now we have to do something. Somebody has to go. That sign has already been lit, I think. It's already been pulsating. You know, we've, we've, I think we've been there for a little while. It's pulsating, but I'm not sure it's on 24 hours a day. I don't think it's like a diner sign. No.

A fluorescent diner sign, but I think it does pop on. But yeah, there's multiple guys, I would wonder. Yes. And if you work back for keepers, it's basically just Yocage, Murray, and Brown, and then you could tell me, anyone else on the team who knows. And I think Gordon's a keeper,

but I think he would be the trade piece if you were gonna blow it up. You know what I mean? That is fair. I think that was kind of my hesitation point as you were saying that. It's like Aaron Gordon, Mr. Nugget. Like he is part of the DNA of that team.

He's also, you know, per the conversation you were having with Zach the other day about like Draymond as an amplifier, I think Aaron Gordon is a terrific amplifier. Like he turns the Murray-Yokich pick and roll into a three man action, like really triangulates some interesting stuff out of it. His ability to work the baseline,

work out of the dunker spot, but also out of the corners, also kind of turning around like random junk offense is really one of the only reasons the Nuggets are alive in this series at this point. And so like, I think they would be very hesitant to trade that away, to say nothing of the world that he gives you on defense in terms of his effort and versatility on that end. So pretty important.

Well, for example, they have four keepers. That's a pretty tough, tough, uh, team to change because now we are just in the pure Michael Porter Jr. trade machine era and no, really no other lovers. Zeke Nagy. I don't think the market for Zeke is robust in all, in all due respect to him. Let's take a break and we'll talk next pistons really quick. Our friends at FanDuel are getting you in on the NBA action during these playoffs right from the first tip right now.

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and it smells like victory for all of us. Coming back, Nick's Pistons. So I was in the car not realizing that Beyonce was playing at SoFi tonight right next to the Cooper game and it took an hour and a half to get to a Clipper game. And my plan was to watch the fourth quarter on my phone at the Clipper game, and I could not do that. But I was listening on Sirius,

and just kind of playing off the announcers, and it was the Detroit Pistons announcers who were very, very excited. And Jaylen Bronson did it again. So what did you see? Because I unfortunately could not watch the game with my eyes, I could hear it, I couldn't watch it. What did you see?

Do you feel better or worse about the Knicks after tonight? I mean, better because they won by the skin of their teeth. Better because Jalen Brunson is an amazing crunch time performer. So have you seen that play? I assume you've seen the highlights. I saw the highlight. I watched it half time.

Genuinely unbelievable how much space Jalen Brunson creates off of pure torque and crossover against one of the best perimeter defenders in the league and Asar Thompson, a guy who had been giving him trouble even in a high scoring night, basically throughout the game when he was allowed to play by JB Pickerstaff. And we can talk about that if you want. I'm just like in awe of the space that Brunson creates. And I think this is what fuels some of the conversation we have about him sometimes,

about the free throw baiting is when he doesn't do it. And he didn't, there's no push off on this play at all. Like he creates all that space on his own, no illegal contact, cans it because he's Jalen Brunson, one of the most clutch players that we have in the league right now. I love watching that guy play. I love watching that guy hoop. And when he's doing it in this way, like he's such an undeniable, charismatic basketball force.

And yet, heading into that next round, the Celtics are minus 700 favorites. Well, sure. Now, if I told you before the year, the Celtics and Knicks are gonna play in round two and the Celtics are gonna be 701 favorites, I think we would have thought somebody was heard on the Knicks. We would have assumed Townes, Brunson, or Inunobi, one of those three, or maybe even Bridges. But that was not a healthy five, but it is a healthy five.

I mean, I know Brunson's slipping around, he had 40 tonight. Or the other assumption would be that the cat trade had gone really poorly for some reason, which it hasn't. It's gone mostly quite well, not so well in this game. I thought this was a game in which it was very much Josh Hart and OG and Mikhail completely delivered in all of their kind of peripheral capacities,

in addition to Jalen Brunson just going balls out as far as like shot creation goes. And then Kat is doing a thing we've seen him do before. We're sort of floating around and he's weirdly passive and he's not involved in the offense. And then when the ball finally comes his way, he's shooting shots five feet behind the three point line. And then he fouls out and misses a crucial free throw.

It's just like a, not a great display of Carl Anthony Towns as a basketball experience, especially going into a series against the Celtics where he has to be one of the Knicks most important players to actually leverage that matchup. And I really like Kat. I find myself as a Kat defender in a lot of debates and conversations. I don't have a lot of faith in his ability to successfully bully and score on and be everything defensively that he needs to be against the Celtics. It's just not, it's not, that matchup does not position him for any kind of success. Yeah, it's a weird one with all the Knicks fans. I know and I'm sure you know a lot of them too.

Last year they were just so delighted by that gritty underdog team that they had. And they just really responded to those guys. And this year it's a lot of complaining, a lot of complaining about Tibbs, a lot of wondering, but then also a real love for Brunson. And the fact that at least they got to round two with those five guys healthy, which I think was the number one goal, a team that was built to try to beat Boston, even though Boston spanked them all season. I do not have any Knicks fans in my life

who are like, watch out for us. Look out. The vibes are real weird right now. Yeah, don't you think? I mean, they, again, barely survived this series. The Pistons had several chances to potentially win it, several chances to lead and protect the lead. Molleague Beasley almost had a look

to tie this game at the very end, but kind of like Gary Trent Jr. the ball away at the final second. Yeah. It was right. Is that a verb now? Gary Trent Jr. then? Wow.

After that implosion the other day against the Pacers, it unfortunately is. Wrong place, wrong time, but such is life. But I would say as far as the reason that that Celtics optimism and Nick's pessimism exists, in addition to just, you know, not disputing the heart of a champion and kind of the general funkiness that's been going on with New York all year, you could see in this series, it's so clear that the Knicks just do not trust basically anything other than a Jalen Brunson ISO. Like they don't run them consistently enough, maybe a pick and roll if you're lucky, but

so much of their offense is geared around Jalen having to create every inch of space against defenders. And now- It's a weird one to me though. I don't really understand that as a strategy. I get it from the sense that Jalen Brunson is an unbelievable ISO scorer. I don't get it in the sense that you just traded for Carl Anthony Towns in the off season, you just traded for Mikhail Towns in the off season. You just traded for Mikhail Bridges in the off season. And some of those guys are good at

kind of creating movement within stale sets, but it really doesn't take much of a nudge from the defense to push the Knicks into just ISO, ISO, ISO, ISO repeatedly in a way that is frankly self-destructive. Well, you know who eats, eats that up for breakfast, lunch and dinner is the Celtics. If you're just going to do the same thing over and over again, they couldn't be more delighted. I mean, Brunson had 33 shots tonight and eight free throws. 33 shots for a non-overtime game is kind of bonkers. And I just don't feel like they've, I felt that the whole year, I've never felt like they've, it feels like somebody's always losing when somebody else is winning on this team.

Yeah. You know, it's like almost like a zero sum game. Brunson gets 33 shots, so that means Towns has to have a shit game basically. And again, I need to watch the second half and study what was going on, but I just, 33 shots is fucking, that's a crazy number. I know he made 15 of them,

but that not sustainable, it's Celtics. Celtics have so many guys to throw at him. They're gonna be sending two guys at him. They're gonna be putting taller guys on him. This is one of the Tatum superpowers. He's actually really good at guarding guys. I wouldn't be surprised if they threw Tatum at him. You should. I mean based on Asar Thompson's success in this game, to the extent that there is a Jalen Brunson blueprint and this guy just went for 40 like it's not a wildly successful blueprint I thought a Sar Thompson did a great job with the minutes that he was given and the assignment He was given and that's kind of the Jalen Brunson stories You try to put as much length as you can get away with it's just

Usually wings and bigs have a much harder time hanging with with Brunson's footwork Not so for the Celtics. Like they have enough bigger, range-year defenders and even the guys who are quote-unquote small, if Drew Holliday is healthy enough to play consistently in that series, that's a tough matchup. Derek White's a tough matchup. They're all tough matchups. Well, the other thing is though, Tatum has been just playing so great. And the Knicks built this team together partly to to go toe to toe with Tatum and Brown. Brown hasn't been as great and I don't think he's a hundred percent healthy, but Tatum

is at the complete command of his powers at this point. And, you know, there's going to be this In-N-O-B versus Tatum piece and then Bridges will be the second guy. I'm sure they're going to stagger him so that, you know, there's going to be stretches. Maybe he'll come out earlier in the first quarter and then come back where he's trying to be stretches. Maybe he'll come out earlier in the first quarter and then come back where he's trying to go against some Knicks bench guys. What is your level of satisfaction with the Tatum rise? As I would say, the preeminent author of the,

does Tatum have another gear ongoing conversation? Yeah, I feel vindicated and delighted. I just think he's been awesome. And there was somebody wrote a piece about angry Tatum in that Orlando series. And I totally agree. He had developed this little sneer that he has now. It's like, where'd that come from? You're like the nicest guy.

Now you have like a playoff sneer, but the sneer is worth like three percentage points in terms of field goal percentage easily, at least a couple of free throw attempts, it's worth its weight in gold. I love his, uh, the bully stuff that he does, which is going to be harder to do against this next team, but they're going to be, I just think they're going to hunt Brunson. This is what the smarter teams who have a lot of options, they're just going to be like, where is he?

Let's try to wear him down on this end. They're probably not going to defend them full court, which I think if like Indiana played them, I think Indiana would try to wear them down that way and just basically make them work to dribble the ball up. Detroit did some of that too. You'll get some of that with OG just like denying at various sports. I'm sorry, in terms of more Tatum, like I think there's just so many ways that on both sides they can deny the stars and force you to go to your second option.

And for the Celtics, there's many avenues from that point. For the Knicks, like you deny Jalen Brunson, you chase him full court, even if that's what they decide to do. There should theoretically be many entry points for this offense. Realistically, and in terms of the way these games play out, they just kind of wait for Jalen Brunson to get open and sometimes he doesn't. Yeah, that's not, if the Celtics are healthy, that's not going to work. The question would, the fear for the Celtic fans is how healthy are we?

What's going on with true holiday? Sure. Are they playing it super safe or is this a guy who's in his mid thirties now who has a hamstring issue issue? And this is going to bug him the whole time. How bad is Jalen's knee? When's the next poor Zingus injury? Like there's, you know, uh, getting the, getting the rest and not having to And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing.

And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing.

And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing.

And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that we talked about them a bunch on your pod, on my pod. Like we all respected Detroit. The advanced metrics are very favorable. They turned into be a good regular season team, but they're so limited in a series like that. Like the guys that they had versus the guys that Knicks had, I just don't feel like the series should have been this nail biter for six games.

I don't think they should have been able to go in there and win a game five at MSG. I don't think this game tonight should have come go in there and win a game five at MSG. I don't think this game tonight should have come down to Brunson having to be like heroic. The Knicks should just be better than that team. So that's, and I think some of it is coach related, which we've talked about on all of our Ringer pods. Like I just don't think Tibbs has a feel for this team. This doesn't feel like a Tibbido team in my opinion. I think all of that's true about the Knicks.

I just don't want to diminish the fact that the Pistons grabbed those games, like grabbed those wins and nearly grabbed this one. And I think that that's a team that has a lot to be proud of in terms of the way they acclimated themselves to this series, to this dynamic. You're right, they don't have all of the options that the Knicks do.

They don't even have, I would say, the highest end experienced playoff shot creation yet. I thought Cade was really, really solid in the series overall. But you can see a bit of a distance between him and Jalen Brunson, right? You can see where Cade still has to go as a young creator, and that's really exciting. And you can see, you know, what a Sartre Thompson can be. You can see overall for a team that was missing two crucial rotation players, right? Isaiah Stewart barely played in this series. Jaden Ivey did not play in this series.

That's a huge deal. And I think saps the Pistons ultimately of their hopes of being more dynamic. And then you get into a position where it's like, when push comes to shove, Tim Hardaway Jr., Malik Bezalak, these guys are your kind of security blankets. Tim Hardaway didn't play in the finals last year. He was on a team that made the finals and did not play. And for good and fair reason, and yet in this game, he's essential personnel because of who the Pistons have on their roster.

And so that's it that will gradually improve over time as they start to replace some of the archetypes of these supporting players. And maybe replace them with Jaden I Ivy coming back and having another great season. You know, like there's, there's Young Town Ron Holland, who kind of got, I would say kind of filtered out of the rotation by the end. Maybe he starts to pop in a different way. They're, these are all different in terms of what they're bringing to the table. But I like where the Pistons are headed. Kind of like a stealth Durant team.

Wouldn't say he was the favorite, but it's a really interesting one. If you're going to try to figure out a Durant destination and that the price gets a little lower, but you just kind of put him in the Tobias Harris spot. I mean, they're not close to winning a title, but. You think Tobias Harris for Kevin Durant's a pretty solid upgrade? Well, I'm sticking up with like about how many picks would have to be in that. But if they're trying to get picks, I, you know, if I were the Pistons, I would probably try to do what some of these other teams in that position have done in years past is, Hey, it was great.

We got our playoff tastes. It's try not to get crazy. Let's do this again. And then maybe two years from now, you know, they're probably hoping this story is already starting to come out about how the Celtics, this is kind of a last run with the roster they have and expect some trades. You know, I'm not surprised that came out. I'm not surprised people did the math and was like, yeah, this is probably not sustainable. The timing of it was a little weird. I was wondering why it became a story when it was, it's been a story all year for anybody who follows the Celtics

to any capacity. The roster is going to cost like 250 million extra. Yeah. If they don't like trade some salary, I don't know who it's going to be. So there's a little bit of this last dance run just with this specific group and it might just be one guy. But I, Bob Ryan's coming on this pod later and we're talking about like just what a popular Celtics team this is With the with the fans like just a bunch of like dudes There's no like the one guy. Oh, man. That guy drives me crazy. It's a doesn't doesn't really

Exist so one last thing with Celtics next. Yeah, you would think there would be all these great storied battles over there And there just hasn't been You know, I was too young to remember when they played in the seventies. I do remember the 84 series, which was Bernard versus Larry, which is, was just awesome. Bernard basically beat this awesome Celtics team by himself for three games. They beat them in 1990. Um, I think they played maybe in 2013. Yeah.

I want to say we got it. Didn't we get a mellow tail end of the KG Pierce era? Yeah. But for two teams that have been in the NBA since it began, it's pretty crazy. It's fucking nuts that they have no play out. Cause I, Oh, what a rivalry. It's like, this really isn't a rivalry, but this, this is probably the closest the two teams have been, um, from a talent standpoint, I would say, um, maybe 84.

I thought the Celtics were way more talented, but Bernard was maybe the second best player in the league that year. Um, so that this will, it'll be fun to see it. I think it's going to be really hard ticket to get in New York. Sure. Um, there'll be some energy behind it. And from an ESPN standpoint, they lost the Lakers. But they get Nick Celtics. We just moved right to the, they lost the Lakers. But they get nicks.

We just moved right to the nicks, right? We moved right to Nick's content. What happens? I don't know what they do. You don't think Clippers and Nuggets are moving the needle in that way? I don't, I, well, they'll probably, they'll get five more days of LeBron. Yeah. I, I'm fully expecting from somebody from the Lakers.

LeBron is open to resigning, but wants to make sure Luca is committed to being shaped next year. I'm waiting for that story. I'm on pins and needles. Just sneak that one out. I am waiting for the Austin Reeves. If they have to trade Austin Reeves to get a big guy, you saw what happened with Rudy Gobert, we gotta do it.

I'm waiting for that one. Maybe it'll be trading for Rudy Gobert. Who knows? You just laid out like four different news cycles. I think we're good through June, to be honest with you. We're good at least around two with all the site. I forgot the Will LeBron retire or not. We're going to get that one.

He might, he might not. Now he's thinking about it. Now he might. It'll just, he'll be in the news over and over again. Or we'll get the Will LeBron accept a minimum salary to go play for a contender? That'll be two days. So yeah, ESPN will be fine for, for, uh, for probably another two weeks. Cause what they're not going to do is talk about can OKC go 16 and 0 in the playoffs.

Sure. Well, and meanwhile here on the ringer, here's another segment about the Boston Celtics. You know, we all have counterpoints. Yeah, it's a great point. or here's another segment about the Boston Celtics. You know, we all have counterpoints. Yeah, it's a great point. But out of all these four series, what's the best one?

Like, we don't know who's coming out of OKC Denver. It's probably Gold State Minnesota, right? If that becomes the series, just from a star power intrigue standpoint. I mean, that would be a juicy one. Honestly, this is maybe an unpopular pick, but I'm actually really excited about Cavs Pacers. Uh, I think that's going to be a really fun, really competitive series.

Are you with me on don't count the Pacers out for a massive upset corner or no? I'm basically always on don't count the Pacers out corner. Uh, so yeah, I think that has to be taken into account, but like there has not been a bigger buzzsaw in these playoffs than the Cavs in the first round So I'm eager to see what they get against better competition Of course, I'm eager to see what okay sees got when they have to play someone who's actually gonna put up some resistance So it's honestly it's been a pretty fun if a little bit turbulent of a first round Second round is gonna have some real juice to it though Indiana's plus 410 in that series and for the series spread

yeah Cleveland Cleveland a win in a sweep one uh four one or four two that's minus 188. I think the Pacers are going to hang in this series. I've been saying minus 188. I think the Pacers are gonna hang in this series been saying it for weeks I think I really think they have I Think they're really hard to play and I think they really know who they are and they have an identity and and they're gonna be Dangerous I can I get I know you already got your Minnesota Lakers thoughts out Can I just tell you how weird it was to go to that game last night? And to experience Rudy go bear in person? Who was awesome?

Certainly the best game he's ever had but just to watch the Lakers Not try to solve the problem This is like a we wouldn't if we lose this game. We go home Yeah, and they're just getting annihilated on the boards. And they were just like, even the guys on the court, like they weren't playing a center, but it's, you know, Luca, Luca, it seemed like Luca was on her said healthy, but Rui and LeBron is basically, they weren't getting rebounds. Guess what? Nobody else is getting a rebound.

And they're 15 feet from the basket. It was, it was one of the weirdest games I've ever been to. I've never seen a team in a must win situation. Just let the same thing happen over and over and over again. Well, there was the refusal on JJ Reddick's part to put, say, Jackson Hayes, whatever big you would prefer on their roster back in the game. Put the corpse of Alex Lennon there, at least like he's taking up space. I'm not going to advocate for putting any of those guys in in particular. I'm just saying he refused to do it.

And yeah, the fact that the players on the court, specifically the forwards, were just like not putting a body on anybody, including Rudy Gobert, but really anybody at all, just standing there as rebounds came down. Like both of those things can't be true. Like one of the sides has to budge. Either you put in bigger players or the kind of bigger wings you have, have to rebound. But this is the trouble. When I went to game two, they were, they were scrambling and gang rebounding and really being wary of it.

In this game, they weren't. I thought the Mac, when Maxie Kleber came in, I was with my friend, Shen. First of all, I honestly didn't know he was on the team. Yeah, I didn't know like he was dressed for games and he came in and I was like, is that, is that Maxie Kleber? Kleba? He just came off the medical table, cleared to play. And they're like, yeah, okay, here you go. Here's five minutes.

See if you can knock down a shot. And then had him in the corner. Minnesota was like, that's great. You knock yourself out over there. We were just like, wow. And he was out there in the second half of the game. Very, very strange. Obviously going back to that, Mark Williams trade not going through, but I don't know

where he makes the difference. I just feel like that's a bad matchup for them all the way around. Mark Williams thought he made a difference. I don't know if you saw him getting in on the action, which I appreciate, but I don't think he's changing that game. I don't think anybody on their roster, if they had subbed in Alex Lennard, subbed in Jackson Ays, I don't think it's materially changing the fact that Rudy Gobert was putting just about everybody who would get close to him in the rim and nobody would really get close to him by

maybe the third quarter at best. Well, it was also like such a massive rollover because Minnesota should have won that game by 35 points. They couldn't make a three. All the threes were wide open, all of them. And guys weren't like scrambling, they weren't like, you know, it was just, it was such a weird one. And then the way JJ acted in that 48 hour stretch, it's like, wow, that feels like he's unraveling. I thought the whole thing, now you go into this off season,

it's like LeBron's gonna be now officially in his 40s. Yeah. You know, really the only move is Reeves. That was weird. But for Minnesota, um, Minnesota golden state, Minnesota probably has the, the, the punchers chance against OKC because of the Edwards piece and the defense. But I I'm still on Clippers have the best chance to beat OKC Island and they're probably going to lose game seven.

It's weird like that. I think the trouble with Minnesota too, and I'm a believer in the Wolves, how could you not be after the display they just put on? Julius Randall played unreal. Rudy Gobert obviously showed up in the way he did and Ant has just been developing as a playmaker right before our eyes.

There's also some stuff happening on the periphery. You mentioned the three point shooting where like Nikhil Alexander Walker, low key, cannot hit a shot. Dante DiVincenzo cannot hit a shot. He was awful yesterday, yeah. Like that stuff, it either will come home to roost all playoffs long,

or it's gonna swing back hard the other way. And I think that's the question if you're picking the Wolves as one of the definitive best teams left in the bracket is, are you betting on those guys to hit? And I think it's realistic given both of their pedigrees, to say that they will, but there's a lot riding on them. And Jaden McDaniels also, we should say, being dared to shoot yet again, and he will be again,

just by nature of the way that team is built. He's gonna have to knock down some shots in addition to everything else he's doing. Yeah, the one thing I feel like with Minnesota's, when McDaniels is good, they feel almost unbeatable. Yeah, and he's finding more ways to be good. Like he's finding more ways to leverage his size, to get inside, to make plays for other people.

It's been an awesome Jayden McDaniels. But yesterday, they hung him on a foul with a minute into the game. Yeah. I was like, okay, here we go. Then he had a second foul. I was like, all right, good job. You got him out of the game.

I think he had 40 of the 50 fouls that you mentioned. They were calling him on hand checks, which is so funny. Like if he had played in that, he would have loved playing in the game. I just went to, he would have been clubbing people. Um, I think though the last point I'll make on Minnesota driving home, I was listening to go bear being interviewed and he was, they asked them like, Hey, Edwards was over 10 or for 11. Would you, would you think of his game?

Because he'd still had an impact on the game. And he was like, I don't care if he was over 60, he made all the right plays. And that's all we want him to do is he made the right decisions. The ball didn't go in, but he was still making the right decisions. I thought that was a really good point

because I thought last year in the Dallas series, when he got a little discombobulated, then he stopped making the right plays. I always felt like he was doing the right thing or had the right idea. Most of the time yesterday, he just couldn't make a shot. And that, that I think is the difference to him last year and this year. I think there was a stretch of maybe three or four possessions where he settled on threes consecutively.

When the wolves really needed baskets and it was like, he's rocking a little bit off the axis here, but then he stabilized, then they stabilized, then he's getting Julius Randall involved. He's making this crucial setup to Mike Conley in the corner for a game securing basket. There's also the thing where it's like when your game plan is so clearly to work the offensive glass like hell, the shots he was taking are not necessarily bad shots. Like sometimes his role is to force things so that he doesn't have to call Rudy Gobert up for a high screen so Gobert can stay low and get those rebounds. Like there's some trade-offs involved in that, obviously.

And you would love, you know, when he gets Luca, an injured Luca one-on-one to just see him blow by him. But the Lakers were doing kind of soft doubles all night. They were trying to throw things at him to throw him off balance. I thought, I thought he mostly aced every test, some occasional blips, but really, really impressive stuff from Ant. Yeah. When you think he's not even in his mid twenties yet, it's pretty good.

Well, a lot of good, a lot of good setups. Suppose we got a game seven, Rob. So group chats going right after like Sunday morning, right? Right after the, Rob. So group chat's going right after, like Sunday morning? Right after the game, I assume, on Saturday. We'll get it up as soon as we can. I'm excited to hear it. Rob Mahoney, thanks for popping on. Appreciate it.

Thanks, Bill. All right, Joanna Robinson is here from The Ringer. We were basically married to White Lotus for eight weeks together. Eight weeks. Yeah. Me, you and Mallory. Then we did a couple rewatchables.

We did, can't hardly wait. We had our first fight. A lot of good stuff happened. Right. And then, and then divorce, I guess. Yeah. It was like a trial separation. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So last year was rough for us with television because, um, we had the writer's strike, they were moving stuff to 2025 and this year has been a pretty great run, especially for like the ringer and for our pods where we had like white lotus and severance and a bunch of different things. Now we're in last of us. We have this John Ham show.

We have the studio. We found out, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but the bear is going to be mid June now. So there's sh's going down. What's the biggest TV storyline in 2025 to you? The biggest TV storyline 2025, I think is that the good IP is actually delivering. Cause I know you didn't mention Andor, and I'm not going to try to make you talk about Star Wars on this podcast, but Andor is firing on all cylinders, the Star Wars show.

And the Last of Us is incredible. And so I think, and Severance delivered on its second season. So I think the ways in which we're used to watching this stuff drop off in second seasons after like a big first season, hasn't really been the case this year so far. And that's been really exciting to know. first season hasn't really been the case this year so far. And that's been really exciting to know. Well, it also feels like the whole infrastructure of an episode happens. We talk about it. We go backwards. We go forward to the next one. What's going to happen? Oh, new episode. This happened. It's still, I was really worried the binge model was going to ruin it. And I think it has ruined

it in some cases. Like your friends and neighbors could easily just, you could have put those all up at once and just had me binge them. But for the most part, that week to week structure still works. I know for us with White Lotus, like we got so much content out of it. It was great. It's Apple and HBO and FX are really like holding it down on the week to week front in that way and Paramount as well. But yeah, in the binge model, I say this all the time, but yeah, if White Lotus had been a binge drop or if your friends and neighbors, the show that you texted me the other day was making you giddy was a binge drop, then we wouldn't get to talk about it for as long as we do and dig into it as deeply as we do. The bear is still a binge drop. That's always confusing to me. I don't know why that's not a week to week.

And Andor, once again, to come back to this, but Andor is dropping on three episode chunks every week, so it's gonna be over in two weeks, and that's wild to me for our 12 episode season. So it's mixed bag, but I do think that people are finding more and more that if you want your show to really take root in the conversation with something like White Lotus, when we're all watching together, when we're speculating together, that's the way you really permeate pop culture in the larger conversation without even the help of IP, White Lotus being sort

of like an original concept from Mike White. So there's three versions of these shows, right? The first version is like what we went through with White Lotus, what you're doing now with Last of us. You watch it, you probably watch it a second time. You prepare all your thoughts and takes and you really got to dive in. Then you wait for the next week, try to anticipate. That's one. The second version of that is probably the same thing. So maybe you don't need to watch it twice, three times. For me, land man was like that where I really looked forward to it every week. It knew what it was. Then there's that third version,

that's a real sweet spot this day and age, which I think your friends and neighbors fits into. Okay, tell me about it. Tell me why this is a third, which is not- This is why I was getting- This is deeper than land man for you? What is it?

No, no, no, land man was good at this too. I don't have to completely pay attention the entire time. I can kind of do something else. Somebody might call and miss five minutes. I'm probably not missing that much. It's a show that knows what it is. I like hanging out for an hour. I wouldn't watch it twice.

Probably would never watch this season again. I like, I'm enjoying the hang. That's like this new version, like a hang show. You know what I mean? A good hang show. I love to know that you're somewhat second screening it. I think what's so telling about your friends and neighbors is like we are covering it on the Prestige TV feed,

but we're probably only gonna drop like 30 minute episodes about it because there isn't like, we're not gonna go deep into the metaphors of your friends and neighbors. It doesn't have that meat on the bone, but it is fun to talk about. There are great performances in there. It's fun to look at. And it's fun to think about it. It's a it's a real like throwback show. We've been comparing it to stuff like weeds, you know, or Breaking Bad

and stuff like that. And so it's this it feels like a really vintage kind of show dropping surprisingly in 2025. Apple's doing all kinds of surprising things. The studio is really, really hitting for me as well. Yeah. Well, I wanna talk about the studio, but yeah, you're right. Your Friends and Neighbors was probably

like a 2012 Showtime show. Yeah, it was definitely a Showtime show. The package with the affair. It's like the affair at nine o'clock and then your Friends and Neighbors at 10. The California-cation sort of era. with the affair. It's like the affair at nine o'clock and then your friends and neighbors attend. And it's got- The California-cation sort of, yeah, era. Yeah.

It's got the model of a lot of those type of shows where Ham is the star. It's then you have like the second star who's like, oh, I've always liked them. In this case, Amanda Peet. It's like, oh, great to see her again. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm glad she's still in stuff.

But for the most part, not, it's a cast of, you know of that guys and that ladies and people are like, I know I know this person, but from where I can't even remember. A huge roster of side characters. I did have a question for you about your friends and neighbors that I was curious about.

When we were talking about it as this kind of throwback show, I was remembering that when shows like Homeland or The Good Wife came out, there was all this conversation about the teen characters and how annoying people found the teen characters. How do you think, what do you think about the kids on this show and your friends and neighbors? It's so funny you asked this.

I just was talking to somebody about this who works in TV and who had kids around the same age as my kids. And we're just like, it's just amazing how TV gets this wrong. Cause you'd figure some of the people that write or run shows have teenage kids or just had them or are in the middle of having them. And they're, I, they just don't get it.

They're all kind of like, anytime you have like a female daughter, like a 15 year old daughter character, they're always like super snarky and angry. They have no other dimensions other than that. The boys are always like crazy awkward. And that's just kind of what they've decided all the teen characters that all these shows should be. And I don't really fully understand it. What do you think they should be like? More people that I could see. Like, you know, I judge it by the kids that pass through my house, right? Like my son, son will just have four people over randomly

and I'll be like, hey, what's that? Or the same thing when my daughter was living with us in high school. And I don't know, they're just kids. I think teens are way more interesting than we see on TV. And maybe they don't know how to write it. I mean, I really miss when, as you and I both enjoy,

I miss when teens were played by 30 year olds like on 90210 or The OC. Now they're casting actual teenagers. And it highlights even more how they're getting it wrong. Because when they cast 30-year-olds, we're all like, we know we're not watching actual teenagers. We're watching like an invented fantasy version of a teenager. But when you cast an actual teen, I'm like,

this doesn't bear any resemblance to any teen I know in real life. Does any show get it right? Is anyone getting it right? Well, the funniest is Landman, doesn't bear any resemblance to any teen I know in real life. Does any show get it right? Is anyone getting it right? Well, the funniest is Landman because I think the lady who plays the teenager is like 29 in real life. It was also in 1923 in a completely different role. But, um, no one's getting it right. You guys like sex life of college girls. I thought the youngest, the youngest son on white Lotus, I thought was, I thought Lockie was a pretty interesting character that had some dimensions.

Now he's probably, he was heading to college, right? He was like a senior. Yeah. It's like 19. Yeah. 18, 19. Well, we were talking about when we did can hardly wait, like how many of those archetypes they either got wrong or there was way more there stuff they missed.

I just think Hollywood's always had issues with this. Yeah, it's true. Well, I'm glad to know that you think that Lockie, a character who gave his own brother a hand job on the white lotus, British white lotus, is an inaccurate depiction of R.U. Maybe that part was unusual. Yeah, but just like a sense of like,

I think when, you know, it really depends on the year, but kids are, when they're 15, they're trying to be 17. Right? Yeah. When they're 17, they can kind of see 19 and 20 in college and they want to be adults, but they're not there yet. And it's super awkward. And then when they're 19, which is another age

that's in these shows a lot, that's when they become a rational confidence adults. Like my daughter now, who thinks she knows everything. And you know, she's like, I know, I don't know. And he's like, you don't know anything. Um, but it's just, it's weird. They can never nail it. And I think a big part of it is they have tried to zag and cast the people that are more age appropriate.

And then, then you're heading into a whole other thing where you don't know if you're getting good actors or not. Yeah, that's true. You know, where you don't know if you're getting good actors or not. Yeah, that's true. You know? My favorite thing that TV writers now, and probably always have done, is, yeah, they did this with Dylan on 90210,

is they give the teen characters their own, the pop culture interests of their generation. You know, so like, if you watch Euphoria, and all those kids go to a Halloween costume party, and they're all like, Drestas, you you know, Baslerman's Romeo and Juliet, or just pop culture references that are not of their time, no matter how much teens are obsessed with the 90s right now, it's just clear that the writers room are like,

this is what we think is cool. And the way we code our coolest characters is to give them interest in pop culture from the past. And those are the cool characters on your show, like Dylan, etc. our coolest characters is to give them interest in pop culture from the past. And those are the cool characters on your show, like Dylan, et cetera. And I just think that's really funny. They're not even trying.

The Homeland Daughter was really when, that's the fork in the road for how we did this. But I mean, you're friends and neighbors, the best thing is it's basically a Jon Hamm show. And if you like Jon Hamm, you're gonna like the show. And I like Jon Hamm and I support all Jon Hamm projects, but this is like, Jon Hamm, just cook. You're going to, you, you ran out of all your money. Your wife's sleeping with this other guy. You're paying, you're paying alimony to her. You just got fired for no reason. She starts stealing from people you know.

I love a heist personally. I have a question for you. Um, as you know, I'm covering this with Rob Mahoney on the Prestige read, uh, NBA, um, you know, expert. What do you think of the, of the basketball player on this show? I have some questions. I have some thoughts. There was a pretty strange party basketball scene they had in one of the episodes that I was like, well, this will never ever in a million years happen. But I do, I do think some of the dynamics they have are pretty fun about like the country club dynamics, the paying, paying some sort of private coach, how much

should we spend, do we need to get another guy? We've got to get our daughter in a college to play this sport. Like some of that's pretty good. And then the dynamics of when you have this big extended circle of friends, which I'm certainly I've had different versions of that as I get older, one divorce or separation can be such like a catalyst for conversation, whether they're in the room or not for people. How do you bring it up or not?

How do you talk about it? Do you take sides? So they've hit some pretty good stuff, but this to me is like a typical Apple show. It's like the morning show. It's just these kind of fun shows that you have to watch kind of one episode of and you get it.

Yeah, I was thinking about Bad Monkey, similar, like in that vein in that it's like, it's such a showcase for Vince Vaughn and then everything else that's happening around him. But like, if you love Vince Vaughn, you're gonna love Bad Monkey. And if you love Jon Hamm, you're gonna love your friends and neighbors.

And I guess- But that's kind of the Apple model, right? The person to put in the square picture with the title of the show. And you always know who it is, right? It's like, oh, Vince Vaughn. Okay, what's he up to? And sometimes it doesn't work where it's like,

Billy Crystal, he's the psychiatrist and he looks sad. I don't know, I'm gonna stay away. No thanks. But that's what they do. I mean, yeah, the studio is writing a lot on, do you like Seth Rogen? Here's the studio. But I think the studio has much, much more on its mind

to say about the world that's existing. And are you, you and Sean and I talked about the world that's existing. You and Sean and I talked about the studio early this season. How are you enjoying now that you've seen more? Yeah, we did the Prestige. We did the first, I think, three. I think we were all really interested in it. You guys liked it a little more than I did.

I thought the energy was definitely a choice, and they've kept that energy every episode. It's really interesting. To me, it's like the rehearsal or some of these other things where people decide creatively, we're going for it and you're either going to be for the ride or you're against it. And they have a lot to say about the studio system, why things are made, why choices are made. They're trying to satirize and parody everybody at the expense of where sometimes you watch and you're like, ah, come on, that wouldn't happen. But I don't think they care. Right.

So it's a fun hang. I think it seems like the younger generation, like Craig Horlbeck loves it. Yeah. Right. So for there's a certain generation that isn't familiar with the player and some of the other times that people have made shows like this. So for the first time they're seeing a show like this and they're like, this is great. Do you feel like, oh, you don't even know the player?

You don't know, you don't know what you're listening. Or like Larry Sanders or a lot of these. It's dipping and pulling from a lot of things I've already seen. So I kind of know, I don't find it that surprising, but I still glad that exists. So what do you think? What's been your take through seven episodes? I love it. And there's been moments that I've been really surprised by.

Like I think the biggest moment that surprised me was, it's not an episode that I loved overall, but the fact that they got Olivia Munn, I'm sorry, Olivia Wilde, Olivia Munn's obviously on your friends and neighbors, Olivia Wilde to sort of parody herself after having been under such scrutiny for her work as a director.

I thought that was pretty interesting that they had that conversation with her and was like, look, it'll be great for everyone. You'll show that you have a sense of humor about yourself and we'll just go ahead and do it. I think that's always really fun when you can imagine the conversations that they had with the person who's playing themselves and say, look, everyone's going to really

love that you did this, that you let them know that you know what they're all talking about and you showed an even more extreme version of it on screen. That's been the blueprint for all of these things where they are always able to get good cameos that are smartly thought out or it's like, here's this public perception of you. We're going to twist this a certain way and try to use this. So, and this will be a win for you. And then usually it is Ron Howard, maybe not in episode three. Yeah, it works.

But the rest, and I think, I think it's really interesting to think about, to your point about like the rehearsal or the studio, I complain all the time. All of us who cover TV complain all the time that there's too much television and there is. There are tons of shows that go unwatched, unnoticed by people. But the advantage of having so much television is that studios will green light something that seems really niche or really odd or really experimental, like the rehearsal, and just say, go for it. We have the space, we have the time, we have, we think we have the money. Now they're realizing they don't have all the money in the world,

but we think we have the money to try this. Let's try it. And when it hits, it's extraordinary that something like the rehearsal exists, you know? And you don't get that in the sort of TV landscape that you and I grew up in. That's a great point. Well, I feel like, you know, I think about the, uh, the studio and what's missing for me. Cause I've watched every episode. I look forward to it. I don't always love it, but I'm always, I'm glad it exists. Yeah.

I don't like Seth Brogan's character. I don't, I'm not rooting for him. Yeah. I, I like how he's drawn out. Like I get it. Like I totally get the character, but you're making him the hero of a show, but he's not a hero, which I think is the point. But it's like, I, as some seven episodes in, it's like, am I rooting for this guy to flame out or figure out like, Oh, I can actually use my powers to save Hollywood. And maybe the show hasn't figured that out, but they were on this journey with

him and I don't know what the journey is. And I'm not sure what my role is. Am I rooting for him or against him? I don't know if the show's figured it out. It's funny to hear you describe that because I am rooting for him, but I hear what you're saying in that he's a doofus. He's a, he's like a fuck up, like all this sort of stuff like that. So, um, but that's the exact same journey I'm on

with your friends and neighbors, where I'm watching John Hamm's character, Coop, and I'm like, am I supposed to like this guy? Am I supposed to be rooting for him? I don't mind the crime. I don't mind the B and E. I love a heist, but like, he seems like he was a bad husband and a bad dad,

and you know, like kind of a callous dude, am I supposed to be wanting him to succeed or wanting him to get busted? What am I looking for inside of this show? And that doesn't like, it doesn't have to be someone, a character doesn't have to be someone I'm rooting for, they just have to be someone I'm interested in. You know what I mean?

And so like, if you're interested in what Seth Rogen is doing in the studio, for me, that can carry me beyond whether or not I want him to succeed or not. Do you know what I mean? And so like, if you're interested in what Seth Rogen is doing in the studio, for me, that can carry me beyond whether or not I want him to succeed or not. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it's weird. Both shows, even though I think the studio probably put a little more thought into everything it's trying to do

than your friends and neighbors, but I think both of them are trying to say something that's not about the main star, right? The studio is pretty obviously trying to make all of these points about this is why we all complain about Hollywood all the time. This is the thought process. These are the people that are responsible for the choices of the shows and movies that make you mad when you don't understand why there's not more good

stuff. This is why you're seeing all of it right now. So I get that. These are the people who don't know how to write teenagers on your favorite teenagers. Exactly. Yeah. Your friends and neighbors, I think is way less interested in the John Hand piece and more interested in this whole culture of wealthy people, um, their relationship with one another, their possessions and the fact that they

have stuff and they don't even realize stuff's gone when they're just collecting things, they don't even know what it is. They have a basketball court, they don't use it. They want their daughter to play tennis because it'll get her into college and it'll be a good thing for them, not for the daughter. And so it's hitting this like, why are the choices that all these wealthy people are making? What's the point of them? That I actually think is a really interesting concept. Well, I think it's interesting to watch your friends and neighbors right off the heels of white Lotus, which is also a show that, that tries to look at rich

people and Hey man, they also have problems. They're not happy even though they're surrounded by all this luxury. Um, but I think it's... Except for Greg Garry, he didn't have problems. He's figured it out. He has a great house and he knows what he likes sexually. He's good. But I think both those shows are trying to have it both ways.

Both ways where they're critiquing that class of person while also inviting you to sort of luxuriate in this world and just have this sort of escapist fantasy that you too can have a watch that costs this much money or a swimming pool that looks like this or a catered birthday party that looks like that. You know, like that- Or a shelf of watches. Just like, here are all my luxury watches one by one.

Do you have a watch shelf, Bill? Definitely 100% no. I don't know, man. Is there anything on your friends and neighbors that you saw that you're like, yeah, I should do that. That's something I should do. I mean, when they went to the guy's little private basketball court, I was like, oh, that's pretty impressive.

Little indoor court out of nowhere. Some of the, the part they maybe don't hit hard enough, especially with older parents is how drunk people get. I think they've gotten in a little bit, but it's definitely something you see when, when people have like the kids go to college and it's just like the couple laughs, like people getting like hammered. It's like this whole, that's what I've never seen in these shows in the right way where it's like, whoa, they can't even walk and they're 54.

The more you talk about this, Bill, the more I want you to make this show. I want you to make the show. So I should be a consultant? Yeah, I want you to make the show where you get the teenage characters right and show what the empty, the like the well-to-do empty nesters do once their kids are off to college.

It doesn't have to be well to do. I think it's everybody. If you're building like your whole life around work and your kids and then the kids just go, some people, first of all, you better really like who you're married to, which I'm fortunate enough. I really enjoyed my wife's company still, but you better really like who you're married to which I'm fortunate enough. I really enjoyed my wife's company still But you better really like whoever you're married to yeah And you better be prepared for like guess what there's gonna be a moment when your kids don't really want to hang out with you And they're just gonna leave and they're gonna go and this just could be you guys and some people are like

It's how it goes All right, wait can we talk about last of Us? Sure. What do you want to say? I don't watch that show. I know you don't. Are you having any, are you having FOMO given that The Last of Us and Andor are dominating at least a lot of the conversations we're having at the Ringer? Is that something like, does it bum you out to not be watching these shows or how do you feel?

I don't, I think I'm going gonna watch Last of Us at some point. Really? Yeah, I do. And then by the way, I watched the first five episodes. Yeah. I just wasn't, for me, those bleak end of the world type things, like you really kind of have to be in the mood in that. And, you know, post COVID, I wasn't really that interested

to explore the end of the world, but maybe I'll get there in the late 2020s, I don't know. Andor is something like, that's one where I think you really have to buy into the Star Wars universe and I think it becomes more meaningful, right? I just couldn't step into Andor unless I had some background, right? To a certain degree, but I think when you listen to Chris and Andy talk about it on the watch,

you know, they have been so disillusioned with Star Wars. They might have grown up on Star Wars, but they've been so disillusioned with, like, what's going on in that world. And what Tony Gilroy is doing with Andor is just, like, making a really complex show about politics and spycraft and all this other stuff and with like this barely visible veneer

of Star Wars on top of it. So I actually think you could watch and enjoy. Interesting. I should just watch the first one and see what I think. Yeah, yeah, see what you think. I mean, the problem is I'm just on these terrible channels like 2B and Pluto and just like, oh, Death Wish is on. And I'm just watching some movie from 50 years ago.

Do you pull up Pluto because it is comforting to see the old grid of what's on? I love the grid. I still have cable too. Same thing, I'll zip through the movie channels. The 2B main screen's great. I like what Amazon will get frisky sometimes with like 90s classics or 2000s movies you haven't seen. I like having my handheld.

So you're happy with The Last of Us. I know you're covering it all over the place. Yeah, I mean, can we spoil the big thing that has happened this season that everyone already knows about? I feel like at this point everybody knows, right? How would you hide from that one? Yeah. So they kill off the main character. So Peter Pascal is not on the show anymore. Looking at it from the outside in, like, what is, are you, do you have any reactions to that? Yeah, I was startled.

Yeah. Because they did one of those things that we've gotten used to during the social media era of huge surprise, you know, and you see those moments on the last of us. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, something happened, but then it just was persistent. And then the next day, of course, it's on like Apple news on my phone, like, why Pedro Pascal left the last of us? And they straight true to the video game. And so obviously even me who doesn't, didn't watch the show knew that he wasn't on. So, but so it stayed true to the video game. And so obviously even me who doesn't, didn't watch the show knew that he wasn't on. So, but so it stayed true to the video game, right?

Or no. Yeah, that, that happens in the, there's the, there was like a first edition of the video game and then a sequel to the video game. And in the sequel, they kill off that character right at the beginning of the game. So they killed him off and we were all wondering if they would string it along just to keep their star, Pedro Pascal, on the show a little longer, but they killed him in the second episode of the season.

But I was just curious if that kind of move is something that makes you want to watch the show more, if you're like, oh, they're doing something as bold as that, that's interesting, I kind of want to check that kind of storytelling out. Or if you're like, because we've heard- Seems risky. Well, there's been this interesting,

there's been a reaction of, if Pedro Pascal is not on the show, I don't wanna watch the show anymore. And I have to say, I got a little bored with that because I've just heard it before. And those people don't ever wind up quitting the shows. I've just heard it for too often that people are like, I'm quitting, I'm never gonna watch the show again. We heard on

Game of Thrones every other season people would say that reaction to something and then more and more people watched it every every year. Walking Dead was the best example of that the first couple years when it was really a water cooler show and they would kill off a couple people and be like, what? Yeah. I'm quitting. I'm never coming back and then they always do. So I'm just like, it's not, I can't believe. What's the number one? What's the number one, I can't believe they killed that off, that person off character.

It's gotta be the guy in Game of Thrones, right? Sean Bean. Sean Bean, yeah. Just like that, they did that. And everyone who read the books knew it was coming. But for somebody like me, it was like, I thought that was the star of the show. It was like, wait, what?

How do you do that? Given your allergy to genre storytelling, Bill, how did you wind up watching Game of Thrones in its very first season? Because it was on HBO? I didn't watch it very, I didn't, I came in late. Okay. And a couple people,

and it was the then-Grantland universe, just hammering me. But it got to the point where it was clearly such a great show and such a phenomenon that it was like, if I like TV, how do I not watch this? It was one of those. Yeah. And I'm trying to decide which, like,

between The Last of Us and Andor, which one I wanna to sort of... Steer me toward? Yeah, bug you about for the next five years to see if I can get you to watch it. Probably Andor. My biggest hole, my worst one that I'm... Your worst one is Sopranos. Correct.

Clearly. My worst one is probably Six Feet Under. You've never seen it? I've never seen it. Yeah, I've never watched it. That is wild to me. Yeah, it's terrible. It's a bad job by me. No, it's just such a bill show. I know. It's like a show you would really like. I can never watched it. That is wild to me. Yeah, it's terrible. It's a bad job at me.

No, it's just such a bill show. I know. It's like a show you would really like. I can't explain it. Yeah. Okay, that's okay. We all have those things. Yeah, that's one that I know I have in my back pocket.

I never watched The Shield, which has enraged a couple people in my life, but now I feel like that's probably too dated. No, I mean The Shield. And The Leftovers is the other one that's a miss for me. Yeah, but like the Leftovers isn't a Bill show, but like Shield and Six Pounds are. Well, my girl's in it though. Well, yeah, Carrie's in it,

but you can see her in other things, right? I know, but I feel like I have to support the Carrie Coon franchise. Okay. I was watching, I was watching, flipping channels, and Eagle Eye was on, with Shia LaBeouf and Michelle Monahan. Michelle Monahan, yeah.

Much, much younger, because it came out 20 years ago. And I was like, wow, there's our girl, she's back. If I still feel like attachments to all the characters. Although it seems like our guy, Walton Goggins is kind of unraveling a little bit. I have a lot of questions, Bill, and no answers for you, just only questions.

People go on White Lotus and weird shit happens after. They lose their marbles. It's a lot. I don't know. We support Walton Guggen's always on this podcast and all podcasts, but I just have some questions about what's happening. I do have some intel.

I don't think they're going cold in season four. What? Yeah. I tried to warn you with this. I don't think Mike Whiteleg's cold. OK. Do you know where we're going? I don't know where we're going, and I don't think Mike Whitelegs cold. It's anti-cold. Do you know where we're going? I don't know where we're going

and I don't think they know where they're going, but I don't think it's gonna be cold. Somewhere sunny, okay. You're not gonna get the Swiss Alps. We're not getting Aspen. We're not getting anything with snow, I don't think. What's the next show this year that you're excited about? What's coming up that you-

The Bear. The Bear. Yeah. And how do you watch The Bear? What's coming up that you... The bear. The bear. Yeah. And how do you watch the bear? What else is coming? I can't, so here's the thing with the bear. I can't do more than two. I think that's how you have to treat it.

And I think people who binge, you try to watch like five in one night, that's not the show. You can't do it. You're doing the show to service. That's not how it was meant to be written, perceived, consumed, anything. But would you do two over the course of a week, like Monday through Friday, every

night we're watching two, or do you do two and space it out a couple of days and two more? So I'm saying I would watch two in a row. Right. But I'm saying like Monday night, two episodes, Tuesday night, the next two episodes, Wednesday night, sort of like that. Or the problem with binge shows like that though, is you don't want to be too far behind what everyone's talking about in case you get spoiled or something like

that. You know? If I was in charge of FX, I would run one on Sunday night and run out and one on Wednesday night. Now do a Sunday, Wednesday, a staggered schedule. So people could talk about each one, but then the next one's coming. And that's, I just think that would work better. I told you why they started binge, like the bear is a binge watch, right? It was to ignite Hulu, wasn't it? No.

Well, I was told that it was because, um, John Landgraf thought it was like too bleak and that people wouldn't stick with it if it were week to week. So I understand why they dropped the first season as a binge, but once they saw what a hit it was, I will never understand why they keep dropping it as a binge. I think it's just because they think people expect it at this point, but I don't know why you wouldn't just reverse course and own the summer with the bear, which you could easily do. So I can tell you this would have been great for Grantland and it would have been great

for the ringer and it would have been great for the ringer and it would have been great for any content Copeyella would be involved with. Yeah, think of the content. On the watch, a great podcast on your network. Chris and Andy interviewed Tony Gilroy about Andor and he was talking about the release schedule and he was saying, dropping three episodes a week, he's like, I kind of like it, it's like a little movie every week

so people can watch it. He was like, I do worry about the podcasters. And he sounded actually genuine. He was like, it's a lot for the podcasters to try to cover. And I was like, thanks Tony Gilroy for thinking about us. I appreciate you. Well, Stranger Things was the other one that just doesn't care.

And that's coming too, I think this summer, right? Yeah, yeah. I think like mid-summer, July, something like that. Yeah. The one I'm the most excited about and God knows it'll ever when it'll ever finish and it probably won't be 25 is, uh, is when they figure out euphoria, especially if they do the moving the characters forward by five years gimmick, which it sounds like they did. Yeah.

I just, I've always wanted somebody to do that. I think what did like Dawson's Creek do that or some One Tree Hill, one of those shows advanced on the characters got old and they just said, fuck it, moved everybody forward. Yeah. That sounds like a One Tree Hill move. Dawson's never did that. We had to suffer through all the years of college. Well, at the finale of Dawson's, they did a time hump. Well, the best time hump of all time is Mallory's favorite moment in the history of television, which was the end of the affair with old Dominic West. With the great, with the old age makeup.

That she's never been more delighted about anything that's ever happened. I genuinely think you two think the affair is one of the greatest things that's ever happened on television. It's one of our bonds. Yeah. The first season I would stand by the lore

of everything behind the show, behind the scenes of the show. Yeah. That just became, that would be the greatest oral history, no pun intended, I think, that's ever been written about a TV show. I still don't really know what happened. Euphoria would be a pretty good one too, but. I love that Mallory's not here

and you're just sort of like filling in for her. I appreciate you bringing that energy. I'm just, yeah, I'm just taking some of her takes. I know she would appreciate it too. I appreciate that energy. What show are you the most excited about in 25 that hasn't come out yet? Well, we got another throne show coming up

on Night of the Seven Kingdoms. We just don't know when it's coming. We thought it was coming after The Last of Us, but they haven't even announced a date yet. So I don't know when that's gonna happen, but they haven't even announced a date yet. So I don't know when that's gonna happen, but I'm really, really excited for that one to podcast about it with Mallory and Chris,

I think is gonna be really fun. So that one should be good. There's a new show from the creator of Mare of Easttown. That's gonna kill. Yeah, that's gonna be a really good one. I think so, you know, there's, there's a lot to think about in terms of what we want from television going forward, because television is radically changing in terms of how they're making it and what exactly they're making. And so I think, you know, the more that people can make it clear in terms of conversation or engaging

what actually hits and what they're not actually watching. I mean, your friends and neighbors, you're saying you're watching like 80% of it. Is that what you said to me? Something like that? Yeah, I wish there was some way to keep like how they have four rings and Apple watches, like where your eyeballs go during a TV show. It's like, is it like a 72%? I'm looking at the TV during it. Is it an 80? Are we at 30? Where are we? So that's a hang show for you. That's just sort of like a background watching show for you. But with White Lotus, you were sat and you were

taking notes and you were ready for it. In 1923, which I really, really, really enjoyed, and is a big show for me and my wife. I think we, there's very few shows we equally like, like the same percentage. And that, White Lotus is another one. But 1923 seems like it's a hang show, but you actually like, you're popping your head up a lot on that one.

It's a lot going on. And I thought the actors were really good on this season. I thought the wife character who is trying to get back with her husband. Oh yeah. She's great. She was excellent. I thought she was an excellent actress.

She's great. What do you think of the rumors that the guy who plays her husband, Brendan Stener, that he might be Batman? What do you think of that rumor? Would you like it? Interesting. I know he has some Sidney Sweeney movie coming, right?

And he has, he's in a movie with the lady from White Lotus that I think already might've come out. The girl from season two. That one I think already came out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think they're trying to make him a thing. Him as Batman though, I don't know. I mean, the one thing with him is I do feel like

he's winning fights on 1923. It's like, don't fuck with it. Like he has that kind of energy to him that I think works. He threw that one guy overboard. Like, you know? So, I mean, I think that would be really interesting. Two other shows we didn't mention before we go. Paradise was totally watchable.

I thought that was probably a 72, maybe a 67 on my eyeball scale. Definitely could like go on eBay and look for stuff and just pop up. And then I didn't watch it, I'm going to, but the pit, I think was the unexpected surprise hit of the year, right? Yeah, but the pit is not a Paradise background watchable. The pit is just like, it.

Yeah, I think the pit is definitely, I think Andor, just for what I like, is the number one show of the year for me. And it's just operating on a different level altogether. But the pit in terms of, similar to your friends and neighbors, it feels like a show from a different era. We feel like we're just watching ER, but elevated ER. And I love it.

Sounds great. Elevated ER is a great idea. I would have bought that one in the room. Oh, we're doing elevated ER? Done. The best part about The Pit, not just that it ran longer than your normal HBO show runs, so you're just like really with the characters week to week for a while, but it's coming back at the top of next year.

Like we don't have to wait three years for another season. characters week to week for a while, but it's coming back at the top of next year. Like we don't have to wait three years for another season. They're bringing it back at the same time next year. And so, you know, that's how we used to watch television, but yeah, the pit is. I mean, absolutely killer. I can't wait for you to watch the pit. I can't wait to hear your, yeah, I'll be banging. Once we get through NBA playoffs, when we hit like mid June, I'm just, that's it.

I will be all caught up on all, I'm just, that's it. I would be all caught up on all TV by probably mid-late July. So what I'm hearing though is that you want to podcast about Euphoria Season 3 with me. That's what our plan is for... Am I? I think I'm too old to be on that podcast. Are you? But no, we're...

Well, first of all, I don't want to jinx it, because God only knows with all the people involved in that show, if we ever get to the end of a season three filming, but they are filming it. Yeah. So that's a win. I believe. I choose to believe.

The one I'd want to do with you is like the five year anniversary of the Idol. Oh. Diving back in and trying to figure out exactly what happened. Is that my punishment for not having seen The Sopranos? You're going to make me watch The Idol five years later. What happened? I actually don't feel like enough's been made out of them postponing the biggest phenomenon show that they had since basically a non-Game of Thrones. Just an absolute phenomenon that's peaking on TikTok.

And instead of doing season three, the guy's like, can I do this other idea first? And then it just becomes this two and a half year shit show, however long it took. And then it was so bad, they had to basically combine episodes to get out of the season. Like, what are the odds? That was a brush fire.

That was terrible. That was- Couldn't have been worse. Yeah. Okay, five years later, the idol, what happened? What, what happened and why? Yeah. Yeah. Coming back. All right. So you can hear Joanne on, uh, house of R with Mallory as well as prestige TV podcast, which was a feed. We were basically like, we were holding on to the side of the cliff, hoping for good shows and then boom, we've boom, we're having a really good year.

I know. There's a lot going on. Yeah. Great. All right. Good to see you, Joanna. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on.

Thanks. To support sustainable food production, BHP is building one of the world's largest hot ash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. We're taping this. Uh, it is Thursday morning. There's so many storylines in play, big picture that I had to bring the guy who's

seen it all, Bob Ryan, who, uh, is the best ever at comparing players, different eras he's seen everything. Um, what guy do you want to start with? Because I really want your big picture context on some of this stuff. You want to go Anthony Edwards, age 23, taking it to the Lakers, taking down DeRayet last year, taking down Luke and LeBron this year.

What do you see with him? Interesting. There was a point in the middle of the season when I, in fact, I don't even know if Twitter had turned to X yet, but I either tweeted or X'd that he's got some Michael Jordan in him. And then next thing you know, I saw that somebody in real consequence saying the same thing made me feel very good. He does have Michael Jordan in him. There's Michael Jordan-esque qualities in his game. Same size, body type, range of skill, swagger.

He's got swagger, God knows. And he got everyone's attention last year in the World Games, even though we lost, he was the best player on the team. That was news to a lot of us that he would be the best player on that team. And he's built on that. And he's a growth stock. My God, you know, they've got something very special there. So yeah, he's gotten my attention.

Um, you got that. Hold on. Can I say on Edwards? So world games was two years ago and then last year was the big playoff run. Olympics where, no, I'm just getting the chronology right. When he, when he, but that's where he got my first, first got my, no, I was aware of him at Georgia and I knew people that thought he was very talented, but, but there was something missing, but whatever was missing,

doesn't he appears to have found it. Well, you think last year versus this year, last year was the, whoa, Anthony Edwards, he's here. I can't believe it. I didn't realize he was, whoa, there's a little Michael Jordan here this year, even though he sucked in the closeout game last night. He couldn't make a three. But Rudy Gobert said something interesting after

that I agreed with, because I went to the game. He made all the right plays. Like, he wasn't making the threes, but they were the right threes to take. They kept sending these double, staggered doubles at him. He usually was making the right decisions. And the truth is, if they had made some threes to take. They kept sending these double staggered doubles at him. He usually was making the right decisions. And the truth is if they had made some threes, they would have won by, by 30. But I'm with you.

Like I didn't go to the famous game. I know you did the 63 point game that MJ had, and I hate comparing anyone to MJ. He's the best part I've ever seen, but there are pieces and it's undeniable. And you see it in person where you're like, ah, that kind of just the way he's carrying himself, the way he's easily going by people, the way he easily seems like he's the best athlete in this game. It does bring back some memories. I got to be honest. It's fair. It's Bill. It's always fair, fair to say guys remind you of great players and there's this qualifies about them without going overboard and saying that they are that guy or is better than that guy.

I mean, absolutely. And then people, there's types. We all know that. There's all kinds of types. There's guys that remind you of that. And then there are certain people that I don't, you know, they stand apart. And I always say that one of the things that the truly great players have something special that is uniquely theirs.

There's something about their style. Maybe it's a quirk of some kind. But you know, and they don't have to be the top of the line player. But I'm talking about just a Hall of Fame level excellent player could be very special in a way that nobody else reminds you of him. For example, and you'll like this, I think. I'm not saying he's the greatest player or the greatest guard of all time, I'd like that, but I've never seen another Dennis Johnson. There's something about his package.

That's the word we want to use. The packaging. His package was special and different and worked for him. And I haven't seen anybody, it reminds me. I've never seen anybody reminds me of him. And yet there were plenty of other great players that somebody would, you know, reminds you of them. Yeah, Dennis Johnson is a good one. Cause he had size.

He could kind of jump, but he would pick his spots. We got him with the Celtics. It was like a slightly different part of his career because he was so good on Seattle and that, you know, it was a big part of those two finals teams. But, um, the way he would pick his spots, the only person that kind of reminds me of him is Drew with the way Drew has gears during the season and then gears in games and then in a fourth quarter can elevate a level where he goes from being a role player to being, you could really feel it in the Celtics Orlando series,

where it's just like, I feel like Drew. And sometimes I feel like he's the second most important guy in the Celtics for the late game stuff. So he's in the right spots. Can always count him, get the right rebound. I always feel like he's going to make a three. He can guard anybody in the other team. And that, that part reminds me of DJ, I think, but I think you're right. DJ was a one-on-one.

But of course, part of that is when we knew him and we knew, we saw him night in and night out and understood the overall approach that he took, which was that he didn't play 100% all the time. He took nights off. And he said 85, 86, he's absolutely positive. But he pre-announced them to the team, to Danny specifically. I love this. Danny, tonight you're getting the shots. And he always picked a team that they were going to kick their ass at home.

It wasn't a game. The game was going to be won. And you can see I've got the logging game by game. Oh, minutes played, 28, FGA, four. You know, Danny minutes played, FGA, 17. Because DJ was taking the night off. And yet the converse is when the big games came, you wanted that guy. And Larry Bird would be the first one to tell you.

And as he famously anointed him as the best player he ever played with, and never backed down from that. Right. Well, you know, another one-on-one, this is a fun combo. Just because I always think about this stuff, and you're one of the, I probably learned it from you. I've never seen anyone rebound like Moses. Like Moses at his peak. I've never seen anybody, whatever he was doing. I remember writing about in my book where he would go, he'd almost go to the baseline, almost out

of bounds. And then he would just back into people. And I've never seen anyone do that before since like he would just use his ass as this like weapon. And all of a sudden guys were flying backwards and he was right next to the rim. I've just never seen it. No, he was special and in that regard, it was to me the number one rule of rebounding. Do you want the damn ball or don't you? And, you know, he wanted every rebound. I mean, and there's two types of statistically good rebounders. There's guys that get what comes to them and they're big and they're strong, or they're athletic, and there's guys that get rebounds

that quote, don't belong to them, unquote. And Moses was the champion of getting rebounds that didn't belong to him. And that's what he lived for. Rebounding was his identity and his, I know that mattered, that was the part of the game that mattered the most to him. There was no question about that.

He was an okay offensive player. He didn't have a great repertoire. He had a big man post, power, stuff. But he wasn't in finesse anyway, shape or form, a finesse offensive player. But he sure was a phenomenal rebounder. Yeah, that's what I love though. Game four of the Golden State Series,

J Ma made that big stop. And then Butler came flying in for this crazy rebound in traffic and he was just like, I'm getting this rebound. I went to the Laker game last night and they're just getting killed on the boards and everybody's just kind of looking around at each other. Like, I don't know, are you good?

But nobody was like, shit, I better get some rebounds. I think about 2010 game seven, Gasol was really taking it to KG, but Kobe, because he wasn't making shots, and Kobe's like, I'm just gonna have to go get, try to get as many rebounds as I can, and came flying in, and that's what swung that game. Nobody in the Lakers did that last night.

Everybody was like, ah, Rudy Gobert, I wish we had a center. And then you could watch them rolling over in real time. It was kind of crazy. Interesting. Yeah. Well, I think the whole thing, they, they, I'm guessing I wasn't, I never did anything in person as you did, but the Lakers, I guess, recognized the futility of their circumstance some point during the middle of this series. Right. And hardly. And I mean, you know, and they just weren't, didn't have a deep enough roster. They're lucky they had two guys that alone three. And anyway, we all know you saw it, you know, so now we'll see what that all season brings.

All right, more guys now and where you see them. What? Who is Brunson to you? Brunson almost seems like he's at a 1974. like he could have been easily on the, on the next with Walt Frazier. Yeah, very, very true. You could, Brunson is one of those guys that you could easily see playing in 1968 All-Star game as well as playing today. There's, I had two guys in a previous generation that I said were complete throwbacks games that they were combinations of the 1950 that they were in combinations of the

1950s. They give the combination of D'Auché's in the 21st century, Paul Pierce and Manu Janobili. Those two guys had old games and spiced up with a three pointer. They added the little extra sauce, which was the three pointer. But other than that, their game translated very well in previous generations. Brunson, he just, he makes, he shows you what you have to do if you're going to excel at his size. And he's figured out, you know, the angles, he's figured out deception timing, and he's strong. He's strong, he can take a bump and keep the shot when he goes to hoop it. And he just he's got a basketball mind, a PhD. You know, he's a he's a player son and his coach's son, who really

had obviously absorbed all the lessons. And you and he's got and people talk about the flopping. I don't even bother me at all. I think he's just smart. That's all I don't buy I might with him. I got what's mine. I might have with some people over the years, but doesn't bother me at all that with him. I I could you go guy. I love him I just think he's he's a special and here's the thing a bill when they got him And I always had my eye on him back to Villanova and and now of course, I didn't see him play much in Dallas You know, but I knew he was there but when they got him I said, oh, that's move. Very good move. But they've overpaid. He's not a star. He's a,

he's a wonderful auxiliary player. That's what I thought. Oh boy. Is he turned out to be worth every penny for them. Yes. Do you make anything, do you make anything of the fact that only one team built around a small guy in the history of the league has ever won a title? Yes, I think it's a good historical lesson. I've had this discussion this year with people about, you go back over the history of the NBA and I only can think of one in my time anyway, you know. And I'm thinking about what I know about the fifties and because he never won till he got Russell and, and so, and he was the preeminent guy

and then, and the other guys, the other global guards of his near near him were Sator Martin and he did win. He had Mike in and Bobby Davies and they won one in 51. But anyway, Isaiah Thomas arguably was the best player on the bed, boy Pistons, and they went back to back and could have won three in a row because they were jobbed in 88 on a terrible call. Don't get me started. Lambeer. You know, when they put Lambeer, they put Kareem on the line and that was a terrible

call. But anyway, Isaiah, I think we're on the same page here. Only Stockton, everyone. Chris Paul. Nash. No. No. So, it's hard.

It's hard when your best player is a point guard and the next best player is a point guard. And so, we'll see how far they can go, not just this year, but in the future with their best player being Jalen Brunson. Yeah, because there was a great book about the Pistons in the late 80s, how they put together that title team with McCloskey called the franchise. And it was all about them with this conundrum

of the league had been around for four decades at that point. Isaiah was their best player, was one of the best players in the league, but nobody had ever won with a small guy. So what do you have to do? And basically the answer was Isaiah had to give up a lot of his offense, lead the team.

Really, he could have had 30 a game. Instead he scored like 22 a game, 23, whatever it was. And he was trying to get everyone else involved. And sometimes I wonder, like when I watch Brunson, how much he has the ball, if he's not like, are they better off with him scoring seven less points a game? You know, that issue was raised earlier in this series, in least in the New York Post, anyway, I didn't read, I read that every day, and I didn't see it. And they raised that issue that he he's got to be less ball dominant for this team.

And the next game out he was, in fact. So yeah, that's a very, it's a final. It's like so many things in basketball. That's why I love the, among the reasons I love the game, I love, but the, what goes into winning, you know, and they need to calibrate guys' skills. So I always said about Jordan and the difference. When Jordan, people think he didn't win a championship. Yeah, he needed to win the championship when he finally got Scottie Pippen as a tremendous sidekick.

But until we learn how to calibrate his skills with the other guys and balance it out know, and balance it out and know when to take over, when not to take over, know who to go to, when not. I mean, it's all very, very important stuff that you just don't throw together talent. You gotta play the game in a quote unquote right way. And that's a universal truth. And you gotta figure out how I'm gonna blend with the other guys.

There's one ball and five guys. And I know, I mean, which one, but I'm not Mr. P.D. Carrell used to talk about that Bradley grew up thinking that way. And and you got it. You got to be able to think that way. Bird understood that. And and I've got no magic understood that.

And Michael didn't originally do, even though it came out of North Carolina. Indeed. But he finally figured it out and once he did, the championship started to flow. How about Luca? First of all, is he a one-on-one? And second, do you think he'll ever understand that balance of I have to make everybody else better, maybe I don't need to score 35 a game?

Where do you see for him from a title standpoint? First of all, before we get to that, I was thinking that I know one person sitting back having an extra taut, tauty, like last year was Nico Harrison. He must have been smiling as the Lakers went out the window. Anyway, yeah, Luca, interesting there because he does have the ball, you know, all the time. And I, it's a taut. I think he's still only 25. He's still got lessons he can learn.

And I think he's smart enough to recognize that he's got to think in these terms that we're talking about. But the Lakers still, unfortunately for them, you know, their roster is shy. And now who knows where they go from here with LeBron. And we played 41 years old in December of this year. Yeah. Is he going to play again and blah, blah, blah? No, Lucas is interesting, you know, in that regard. He's so skilled. But that's the thing that when you have all that skill, you have to learn how to utilize it properly. There's no question, you know. and, um, some nights it seems like that he does. And, and, uh, other nights he's got the ball too much.

So I don't think he's fully gotten there yet. Yeah. I wonder, I'm sure they're going to be talking all summer. Is he going to get in shape? How seriously is he going to take this? Yeah. There's the whole defense thing too, with him, you know, and I wondered my big question about the series before they started was will people

will the other guys be able to take advantage? You know, how much can you explain him on defense? You know, and it happened. And that's something to the Lakers have to be realistic about. Yeah, they the Lakers case can hinge down on, can Luca not get torched on defense? Can we get any rebounds? And how much can we ask from LeBron? And as the series went along, LeBron started to die,

especially in these fourth quarters. So he's, you said he's gonna be 41 next year during the playoffs. I think that's right. Yeah. Have a- It's December 30th, it's his birthday, so I know that. Yeah, so Havlicek,

Havlicek played 16 years and it seemed like 40 when Havlicek was like, Oh my God, somebody played 16 years in the NBA. This is impossible. But then probably could have played a couple of years more. Like you were going to those. I did not. I, by the way, I've got a column in the Hopper. It's either going to come out Sunday or the week after they

Didn't tell me which one they want to run. So on it's on Havlicek by the way for reasons that you'll see Okay, and and you'll like but I know you will like it but John did not quit because he couldn't play anymore. His game had diminished short to me. He averaged 16 points a game that year But he could still play. And he said he would have hung around if he had any idea how good Bird was going to be, and he would have hung around. Anyway, no, John played 16 years. He ended at 38, went out with a 29-point game, and he quit because he didn't like the circumstance

anymore. He wasn't having fun with the way that the Celtics had deteriorated in the locker room, quite frankly. And it was a down period. And so anyway, but he still had skill. He went out being able to play, but he was 38 that year. In fact, he ended his last game was the day after his 38th birthday, the way and that just so happened he had turned 38 today he was born April 8 1940 and his last game was April 9 1978. Wow yeah cuz they always always stories about how he would come and like just play with them and scrimmages and stuff when like three four years later and was still pretty good. And they couldn't believe how good he was.

These guys, these young guys, you know, that, that, that, that, this, this, yeah, that was his birthday present to himself to come to practice and suit up. That was fun. Well, so, I mean, that this is the question with Lebron, cause we saw it with Brady where he just kept playing and, you know, in the 2017, 18 range, they had Garoppolo and it's like, how long can this go? They need a succession plan. Quarterbacks don't play this long.

And then he just kept going and going and going. Like I do feel like there can be generational freaks. I really wonder how long LeBron can go. I think he could still keep playing, but if he's going to be making $50 million a year as one of your two expensive guys, that's where it becomes problematic, right? Because you're, you're just asking like you're asking for nine, 10, nine months a year, potentially if you're going to win the finals from this guy that you need to rely on for all these different things,

because he's in your $50 million spot. And that's where I don't know what the, it almost seems like the answer might be, maybe he needs to take less and try to boost up the team and think about it that way. But I don't know if he would do that. I don't know. That's obviously would be a very rational solution that you know, we know along the way supposedly Brady was able to do that in his time with contracts. And it's always wonderful. And you know, with the money that we're talking about,

these people make, it shouldn't be that hard of a decision if you really wanna win, you know, that you don't have much. Plus they make it off the court too, right? Like they can still make up money all these different ways. But the issue about whether, how long, he's occasionally, has he not, at times over the years or recent years,

when somebody would kiddingly say about playing the 045, not dismiss the possibility that he would want to keep playing until he's 45. You know, I mean, if you did too, I used to look at, I remember thinking about Brady this way. If you were to deteriorate, take a percentage, 5, 10%, you know, with how much would you still like to have them? And the answer was always us still taking if defined if two rates 10% next year. Okay. Yeah. That's still pretty good player based on what he was able to produce this year. Right. And so

you know, he certainly could still play in this game. He is in phenomenal shape. We learned that he spends literally a million dollars a year on conditioning. Yeah. And more, yeah. And we see the benefit of it. And we've never been, we've had old guys, they've always been, the two oldest guys I can think of that played long this long were Kevin Willison

and Robert Parrish, who still holds the record for most games, which I guess LeBron is eventually going to eclipse. Well, and then the old washed up Kareem, I think got to 42. I mean, was he like 41 or 42? But those guys got into their 42 and three range. Yeah.

Particularly Parrish. LeBron, but they weren't running up, they weren't doing the work, the up and down work that LeBron, but they weren't running up, they weren't doing the work, you know, the up and down work that LeBron does, you know, they were doing them down lower at work. But anyway, we haven't seen anything like this. What I'm babbling is saying we haven't seen anything like this before. Anybody that could play the game the way he plays it at this time, at this level, at this age, we haven't seen that before. He's, you know, it's a whole new territory that we're exploring. Yeah. I voted for him second team on MBA and I stand by it.

Right. It just thought he was one of the, I mean, there were a lot of injuries, but, um, Jason Tatum, what do you see when you see him? Who do you see? Who do you see pieces of with Jason Tatum? Jason Tatum at six feet 10 is, most all-around skilled player the Celtics have ever had at 6'10. You know, Larry didn't possess that kind of ball handling ability.

Larry didn't possess that kind of get your own shot at your will against almost anybody at any time. You know, most people, but there were people, you know, we know that could give him, irritate him. This guy, it's funny because he's like Pierce on steroids because, you know, I declared 20 years ago that Paul Pierce was the best scoring machine in Celtic history, you know, not the best player, still Larry, but the best scoring machine that he had every aspect of scoring, you know, and they say now all three levels, right?, but the best scoring machine that he had every aspect of scoring. You know, they say now all three levels, right?

Well, the fact is that his mid-range games were superb and he can get a shot off anytime he wanted. And he had a three point range and he's the best. Bill, I think he's the best finisher on a break the Celtics have ever had was Paul Pierce. And he had that and don't foul him because he's a native plus percent way up there, mid-80s percent homer free throw shooter. This is the best all-around consummate individual offensive player that they've ever had. Jason Tatum is making a bid for this honor.

And as a matter of fact, I'm sure a lot of people now think he's already earned it. And it's funny you mentioned, not funny, but I'm glad you mentioned this because I've already been on local public record as saying he just came off yet another yawn routine 35 point X rebound ecstasy game in a playoff. And it's not getting enough credit for it here in Boston. He's not. Right. This is part of the curse of the history of the franchise. He's up against, you know, the Havelcheeks and the Larris and the Peirces.

That's what happens when you come to Boston. And there's good in that and there's bad in that. And this guy is, I hope he's going to be totally appreciated for what he's done and how much he's improved his game and broadened his game. Last year, the big thing I took away from the playoffs with him was improved defensive rebounding, traffic rebounding. I thought he became a terrific traffic rebounder last year, which to the likes I hadn't seen before, we know he's brought in his passing game. And then his individual offense. I mean, some of these step backs, because all over the league, we're getting used to it.

Curry has set a template, you know, for distance that you've got to match now. And you, because I used to call it Curryland, now I call it Caitlin Clarkland, but that's a story for another day. But, you know, look at the shot that, how about the shot that Carl Anthony Towns made, that last jumper the other night.

Game five. After we had the one where he was going out of bounds, which was a, that was a bird-like shot going out of bounds on the, on the baseline, making that from almost behind the backboard. The next shot, that was five feet behind the arc, minimal. Seven feet tall. But Pierce has, I'm sorry, excuse me, Tatum has this ability to make step backs almost in that range.

And, and people, I think people hear, I'm take him for granted. I really do. And I don't know what more they want out of him, frankly. I agree with you. I've been talking about it all year and then people get mad at me that I'm talking about the Tatum too much. And I just feel like he's made such a leap from two years ago to last year. But then last year to this year where there was, I thought Tatum and Brown last year were one A one B in a lot of ways.

Brown was awesome last year and the distance between them, you know, it was, you never knew who was going to be the best guy in a given game. Now Tatum is clearly the best guy in the team. I think he's clearly either the third or fourth best guy in the league. And you didn't even talk about like how good his defense is and his ability to guard all these different positions. But the, the rebounding is the thing I love the most. I he's their best rebounder by far.

You take a game like that Minnesota Lakers game last night. He just would have gone under there and battled go bear and gotten like 14 rebounds because he's like, this is, we're going to lose unless I do this. I think I, I appreciate that piece of it the most. I just think he's turned in as such a, I don't want to say bully, but there's, there's, there's a toughness to him this year. This is confidence. I mean, he's a, I mean, obviously he's, he's, he's smart and, and, and, and

he's smart and confident, but humble too. He's, you know, there's nothing, nothing like with this, you know, the whole And he's smart and confident but humble too. There's nothing like with this, the whole package, I don't see anything. It's a no yeah buts. I don't have a yeah but on him. And we know off the court, his personal life with it, his wonderful kids and the whole thing is,

he's entirely rootable, is what I'm trying to spit out here. Totally. I think this year year people will appreciate him more. I think if this goes a couple more rounds, I think he's going to get. When they win, you know, if they don't win, you know, there'll be all this and I get, don't get me, you know, I'm not a championship or bust guy. Okay. I've never have been, I never be. Because too many variables going to winning any championship, including in this game seven and things are going great. And then somebody goes down, it can happen. And we know that. So I don't take anything for granted there. I'll say this, I'm going off key here a little bit.

If anybody other than OKC, Cleveland or Boston wins, I'll be stunned. One of those three is going to win. You got to draw a line after those three teams in this league. You have to. And that's that. And one of them is going to win. I don't know which one. I'm anxious to see.

So I had the, and we're taping this for game six of Clippers Denver. I had the Clippers in that conversation and just, I must add amnesia with James Harden. I think I just forgot. I don't know, maybe I blocked it out of my mind or whatever. And it's like, what am I doing? Of course, of course they're not making the finals with James Harden, I should have known. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back.

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And that's just so beautiful. Care of the fire for cancer research. Join the ride at ridetoconquer.ca. All right. We're talking history, current NBA, gotta talk Jokic. I went to the game Saturday, uh, when he just would not let them lose against the, uh, Clippers and basically played the whole game and just did everything. And it was a man. Absolutely possessed.

And it was, you know, it was up there for me with LeBron and game six in 2012. And some of the Jordan stuff I'd seen in person, just when I'm thinking about the best players I've ever seen in person, this now moves, it's like, you know, up there for me with LeBron in game six in 2012 and some of the Jordan stuff I'd seen in person. Just when I'm thinking about the best players I've ever seen in person, this now moved him just being at that game and just being like, oh my God, I can't believe how good this guy is. Where do you put him?

I never thought we'd see another Bill Walton. I never thought we'd see another Bird. And yet there's pieces of both of those guys and a lot of the stuff he's doing. And he's also doing way more than that. But when you watch him, like, did you ever think we'd see anything like this ever? Let's go back early in his career here. And I remember a local writer out there, uh, can talk to me and ask about his passing and how did I think his passing rated with Walton?

And I hadn't seen enough of them. I couldn't believe I was having this discussion that anyone would be so sacrilegious as to suggest that there was a center who would come along to pass anywhere near as well as Bill Walton. And guess what? He's it. That was a fair, he is right, I mean, he's there.

And we can have the argument. He's so, and so that's the thing. Not only is he as good a pass as Walton, but he's far superior scorer. Oh my God, you know, not even questioned. And so my position on centers, as you probably well know, I mean, you start with the three all timers and whichever one you want to make the devil's advocate argument for, go right ahead Russell, Kareem and Wilt, you know, and I could, you know, fine. I mean, I'm a Russell guy, but I mean, I totally respect the other two for what they were.

And then I said, that's, then you draw a line. Now we start to explain who's number four. Well, now we got a guy firmly entrenched in the discussion that we'll see how it all plays out. How many championships he'll win or whatever it is. But in terms of wanting to watch somebody play, I'll tell you what, he's at the top of the list. I mean, it's extraordinary. You don't know what he's going to do next.

You don't know what incredible pass he's going to conjure up. You don't know how many threes he's going to make. You don't know what great rebound he's going to get. No, he's a treasure. I mean, my God, it's a total delight to watch. And he isn't, you know, he's still got a long way to go, you know, depending on how long he wants to play. We don't know. We know he might want to go become a jockey, you know, a seven foot jockey someday. Who knows about that? But anyway, count me among the admirers, the idolaters of Nikola Djokic.

Yeah, Russel and I had talked about this a little on Sunday, that this whole theory that he's just going to retire when he was 34 and be done with it. After going to that game on Saturday, I don't believe it. The guy's too competitive. You don't shut that off. Like he was an absolute full-fledged maniac in that game. And just in general, like, you know, there's pieces, like obviously there's some Walton, there's a lot of Bird.

One of the things that him on. There's a lot of Bird. One of the things that him on defense reminds me a lot, Bird always had the reputation of being not a good defense player. Meanwhile, he made all defenses and was always up there in steals. But his ability, Jokic's ability to read what the other team's going to do on offense and know what they're doing in advance and then fuck it up basically before, as they're doing it, jumping in these spots where they're like, oh, I didn't know somebody was going to be there. He's just, his brain's always moving. It's in person. It's unbelievable.

I never thought after Bird of Magic, I never thought I would see somebody that processed a game like that. You know, that to me, that's the standard. It's always a danger of allowing yourself to think that way. I've done it myself. I'm not going to, you never got to see anything. I mean, when have a check retired, you know, I mean, of course, I mean, we haven't seen, and we were talking earlier about styles and individualistic people

and people that John hasn't been another habit check, but the point is in effectiveness bird comes along, you know, and vendors, John is one a and something Pantheon now instead of one. Yeah, you got to prepare yourself for for the evolution of the game. This guy is really ultra special. And you know, and the thing that made bird so special, ultimately was the mind game and playing thinking two steps ahead. And now we've got a big guy taller than him that can do that as well. No, he understands the game,

the game in a way that somebody, other guys never, never will. No, no question. So you have like, there's that Hakeem Moses shack kind of area, right? And maybe Yanis is like right underneath it. And you already have Jokic in that area potentially looking at that spot right under Wilt and Kareem. Oh, he's at a bridge right now. You're kidding. First of all, my number four is Hakeem.

Okay. He's my number four. Okay. So, oh, so we're in between. He's closer to the big three than he is to the, so in between, he's closer to the big three than he is to the four. I mean, he's gonna have to be in that discussion. You know, and people are gonna harp on championships. All right, Wilt won two, you know, and the other guys won multiple. And Russell, of course, won 11, and Kareem won what, six, whatever, five or six.

Sheck had four, Moses had one. Yeah. Yeah. Moses wasn't pretty, but he was effective. But anyway, Robert Parrish got three, by the way, because he got one with the Bulls, by the way, although he wasn't prominent. Anyway, I got him in between. He's at three and a half right now on his way up.

All right. So we go, we're your, your whole premise that I loved where we're playing the aliens and we can grab anybody and Yokedge, Yokedge, Bird and Magic agree to come. Now we need to find two more guys to put with those three where we're just like, we're just going to have the aliens backpedaling, not knowing what's happening, just amazing passing. Who are the other two people playing with Yocage Bird of Magic? Well, I still want Michael, naturally. Okay. And you know who I'll take now because that gives me a weapon. Since I got Magic, I got the ball handling, I got the de-orchestration, I got the fast break, I got everything settled, you know, who's going to run it. I got special qualities that he had.

Stefan Kerr. Why not? Wow. So you went for the spacing. The greatest shooter of all time. You know, and I'm coming, I mean, the greatest shooter of all time. I don't need LeBron, you know, multi-skilled. I don't need LeBron. I'll bring him-skilled. I don't need LeBron.

I'll bring him off the bench. He can be my sixth man. He won't like it. Be an amazing sixth man. What a wonderful sixth man that would be. Why would we dismiss the greatest shooter of all time? Who's a team guy. Oh, by the way, who can also pass? By the way, he's people, he's not a point guard. He's a two guard who can pass, period. He's not a point guard, he doesn't think, it's not his role, but he can pass and will. And by the way, the other thing that's under,

how well he goes to the hoop with either hand, you know, that set up things for himself and other people in the long run. Curry, so answer, and I'm just, this is on a fly question that you ask. And I'm my first, why not that with the guys you named, he'd be, he fit in perfectly. If Marovitch had a three point line, are we talking about him in the sixties and seventies, like we talk about Curry? Yeah.

Well, if you remember the league, the game came, the shot came in in his last year. Yeah. 1970, 1980. He, when he joined the Celtics in the mid season. And he did make some. He did make, he's a guy that scored 68 points in Mass Square Garden without a three, averaged 44 points a game and 44 people, youngins. The guy averaged 44 points a game in three years of college basketball at LSU without a out of three. Yeah. And he had that, you know, he would have done what, but so many of them who didn't, would have done, go home and work on it. And he would have gotten, you know, certain guys that occasionally took shots in that range and when it was considered to be a bad shot,

and sometimes they went in, you know, he, he would have worked on that shot. He would, but he made some threes. So I remember some games where he had effective threes for the Celtics. Yeah. Oh my God. It's just because, you know, they've done these estimates, you know, which I at LSU going over the game films and trying to project what his average would have been had he made, had, had taken more of them though. Cause if he knew there were three had. Well, he also would have taken more of them though.

Cause if he knew there were three instead of two, he's taken 20 again. It's like Larry. It's like Larry. People that anybody, my God, you imagine how many flourish today. If you tell them, oh, you can take 10 or 12 a game. You know, Larry would embarrassingly would take four or five because it was, you know, there and part of it, you know, he, he famously didn't want the three, didn't like it. And well, he's the more as the weapon.

It was like a, either to get the crowd going or to demoralize people. Yeah. Yes. He did as a psychological weapon more often than not. And, and saved the spots and, and, um, but he would have, Hey, if you said, okay, if that's the game, I can play that game. And he would have gone home. You, you've gotten better.

Uh, a lot of guys that can, you know, by the the way, you know who would have been ready made for the game? I can still see him. Jerry Lucas. Jerry Lucas was going threes before there were threes with that shot put thing he had. I can still see him with legs extended and he shot it from here, not here. He shot it from here. But anyway, Lucas would have been a phenomenal three point shooter stretch for getting 15 rebounds a game.

Jerry Lucas. Um, and then computing is season's average in his head. As you work back down on defense, famously computing is we computing the shooting percentages. He would go back down on defense. Where do you put Yannice in all of this? Cause he just got knocked out of the first round again. He's spectacular. Um, he's not, you know, now we were talking centers earlier,

but, oh yeah, I think that's question now is going to be the rearrangement of the all time 10, you know, the all time. You know, how can you not include him in any current discussion about all-time top 10 players? I I can't I can't ignore him. I'm in sometimes in awe of him. I am a little annoyed that he is Legalized not just a euro step, but in his case a euro gallop and it's You know, that's this whole thing is this whole traveling thing. I used to laugh it off, but it is epidemic.

It is it is bad. And the league seemed to care about it. And he's an exhibit a, you know, and how devastating it is when he can do it because he can go from mid court to the best, no more than two dribbles, you know, with with Waisley. Oh, he's phenomenal. Uh, I think, and, uh, this whole issue with the bug, that's a whole, you know, that's, that's worth the, you know, lots of discussion. Hey, listen, they, they give up a lot of assets for drew holiday and then Dave Millard and that's it.

I know. I, and, and, and what could they possibly get and who could afford them? And what can they possibly get back that would make it even remotely worthwhile? I, not that in my head, I don't have the scope of the vision of knowledge of all the teams, individual circumstances to know who could possibly make anything remotely ideal that the Milwaukee would ever want. But they have to start thinking about it whether they're from here now. So you know, clearly it's over.

And where's Doc from here? So I don't know. I'm hoping Doc comes back on my podcast. The Milwaukee has no first round picks that they control of their own over the next five years, which makes the tanking a little bit harder. I got one more guy for you. SGA is another guy who feels like he easily could have existed in 1974. is another guy who feels like he easily could have existed in 1974. Right? He's... He's a tremendous guard and he's tremendous. I can't think of, among all the great two guards, he doesn't remind me of anybody. No, I just see him as a wonderful all around shooting guard, period. But I do, I love the idea, by the way, that that team has an all Canadian backcourt.

Right. And, you know, Dortsky, he's from Montreal, Dortsky. And so I love that. I'm still waiting for Canada to make a splash in the Olympics sometime soon, you know. I mean, but anyway. They choke every time. Yeah. They fall apart at some point. I know it. They, they're massive underachievers, Canada. But, uh, you know, anyway, um, oh yeah, he, he, I could see FGA, you know, in the 1970 floor championship series, you know, I can see him. Yeah,

I'm absolutely positively. Yeah. He's, he's, he's not, so you have no, I can come up with you have. Okay. See still as the favorite. Cause Vegas would agree with you. I, I, I, I think that now, honest to God, I mean, I know it sounds parochial. I'm sorry. I still think that if everybody is fortunate enough to be healthy and able to bring their A game, that the Celtics can win and will win if they're fortunate enough. But right now, the variables there, starting with, you know, Holladay, starting with Nen Brown and will somebody, you know, mess around with Tatum's wrist? And poor Zingus, you never know when he's gonna take a misstep.

Never know, you can't count on. Too many what ifs there for me to be totally confident. But I'm saying if they show up in the finals healthy, and I don't care how, and I want everybody to be healthy, I still like their chances. Okay, she's interesting. Now there's no question about it. And I'll tell you who's I'm I'm I've read about you know, I was paired for him, but having read about him before he ever set foot in college, but my god Holmgren

is good. Holmgren is good. He's a he's a he's a very, very useful player. And, and, and, and Hartenstein, he's not a star, but he knows who he is. And he knows what his job is. Right. And, and, and he, he does it well. And of course, then, you know, the rest of the team, fine. And, and well-coached, of course. So, yeah, I like that. And as far as, and Cleveland, don't dismiss Cleveland, but when they got, right now, they're doing it without garland, as we speak. And, you know, but when they got right now, they're doing it without Garland as we speak. And, um, you know, I think they would, they're not going to go all the way without their full compliment, but, uh, uh, you know, they're good. It's a salute, nobly defensive player of the year. Um, no, they're, they're, they're good too, but I still honestly believe that the Celtics, uh, have more assets ultimately than anybody. I still think if they're healthy.

Uh, have more assets ultimately than anybody. I still think if they're healthy. Is this Celtics team, where is it creeping up on the popularity rankings in Boston? Just, it just seems like people love, you know, they have a real history now with Tademan Brown, cause those guys grew up on the team. Porzingis is a cult hero. Horford is among the most popular, uh, role player plus guys they've ever had. Howdy and white are impossible not to like. Yeah.

It's just, you go on and on. It's like, everybody loves everybody on this team. I've, I don't remember many teams like this on the Celtics. And the, and the vastly underrated Luke Cornett, who's made it, who's been a nice adjunct to this team. Okay. You're right. Well, this, this is a new generation, you know, this is their team, this is the Celtics have had, you know, four or five incarnation, well, you go about the 50s, then you got the 50s and 60s team, that's one, you got the Havelchuk-Cowans team, that's two, you got the big three team, that's three, you got the second big three team, that's four, is the fifth Celtic incarnation of greatness

and a new fandom. I see so many young people in the stands, and it's terrific. And it is, what a likable bunch. I mean, it is, it's just, there's no polarizing players. Mark is smart, who I loved, but acknowledges his foibles. To me, he and Jackie Bradley Jr. were like Siamese twins of sports. Yeah.

Okay. And I love Jackie Bradley Jr. to the, I don't care if he's at 180, but there's no polarizing, who's a polarizing player? Unless, unless people want to manufacture something about, you know, like, oh, Brown, he dribbles in the traffic. He still doesn't have a left hand. All right. No, no, no, no,, I certainly grew up with where everybody stayed on the same teams. And then in the last 15 years, that kind of got blown up and people move around more. And you have something like Jokic in Denver, you have Curry and Golden State or you're

Brown and Tatum together in Boston with Horford. And I do think it's more meaningful to the fan base and to the people at the games. They have real history with these guys, you know? And like we tried to capture some of that in the Celtic city about these generations, how they overlap and how people buy in and people overlap with the stars from the previous generation and does this stuff actually exist? And I do think those guys care about that. I think Missoula cares about it.

You know, I think the organization cares about it. It came across clear. Well, it sure came across clearly how Garnett and Pierce felt about it. Within their time. How about Ray Allen? Ray Allen was like, I'm a Celtic. He only played five years and he's like, I am a Celtic. I consider myself a Celtic. That did, that did surprise me.

You know, I, I, I, uh, he was always kind of a little bit unscrutable as far as I'm concerned. That was good to know. Yeah, that was really good to know. No, it's all true. By the way, I can't leave you without filling out. I decided Peyton Pritchard is a cross between Larry Siegfried and Eddie House. Wow.

Probably one of the only ones that's going to get that one. What's the Larry Siegfried part? Well, he's same rough size, close, feisty, tough. He's a scrapper. Siegfried was, I can hear Johnny most. He said he's a scrapper. See, he was, I can hear Johnnie most. Said he's in his shirt, said he's in his shirt. Well, I can see that. Peyton's in his shirt.

He said, and he's good for one sneaky offensive rebound a night. Right. And he's tough. He's not just a three point machine, he's a good basketball player. And I love when he takes himself inside and finds a way to get the shot off, you know,

and sometimes they block it. Okay, fine. But he can, I love him. That's the secret. And of course, you know, the Eddie House part is self-evident, you know, the three point. But that's the cross between the

Cooke-Creed and Eddie House. Before we go, you were a big part of Celtic City. So we did nine episodes. We tried to cover 80 years of the team. When you saw all of it laid out, episode by episode, what were you expecting, and then how did you feel as you watched it? Well, first of all, you can't do everything,

as you well know. There were a couple of things I would have liked to have seen addressed at the time, maybe it was more thoroughly or it all. But I'm not remotely going to nitpick. well, no, you know, there are a couple of things I would like to see addressed at the time, more thoroughly or at all, but I'm not remotely going to nitpick. I thought it was a spectacular job. I thought that they got the essence of it. You accomplished your mission. That's what I thought. I could say they've accomplished their mission and then tied it up with a wonderful bow with the 95 year old Bob Cousy saying how much he wanted the 18th championship to keep the continuum that he could relate to and be feel a part of going. That was exactly what you were trying to portray, I think, in the spirit of that.

And I thought it was terrific. I'll tell you, it was a hard episode. It was eight. That was, you know, seven. That was hard. You know, they lived when you, that was, you know. Seven, Reggie Lewis. That was hard, you know, when you lived through it, you know, and I'm sure a lot of us, I know how I felt watching it, but yeah, it's real, it's part of the deal. You know, those things happened, and it was a down period,

and it was, you know, those things were just frightening but it was just awful. But by us and we didn't know, you know, I had seen, I was so excited about him because I happened to have stumbled. I don't know what I was doing, Bill. I have no idea why I was in Durham, North Carolina that particular evening and why I was, because I don't know what kind going to feature whatever I was doing. I was there and Cameron North Stadium the night as a Maryland player, he dropped 40 on Duke. He got my attention. I could see- You went to that game?

I was at the game when he got 40 at Duke. Oh my God. Then twice, twice Mike Szycewski has said to me that the greatest two opponents he ever faced in college were Michael Jordan and Len Vias. And I know how excited Larry was. Larry was going to come to Curly early and work with him and play with him. Larry was up to on him.

He knew he was really excited about it. To think all this happened in a flash in 36 hours and 40, it was just astonishing. Yeah, we tried to hit that episode, not exactly a feel-good episode, but that 90s Boston, how dark it got. The Garden got knocked down, Bias and Reggie, the Red Sox. If I said eight, I meant whichever one encompassed the burden. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. But, oh no, that group, and I loved that Rick was, you got Rick there saying, Danny, how do you put together a big three? You know, and well, here's how you do it.

You know, you take your fifth round, your number five pick and trade everybody out and now you could you persuade Kevin or Garnett to come and now you got a big three. I'll tell you what I remember though about me and I'm on record. I mean, I can't deny it. I printed it that when they put the big three together, original that second big three, I said, yeah, well, guess what? You need a lot more than that. I wouldn't trade.

There's no team in the league would trade their final other nine for the next Celtic nine that they got the worst support. Upon which they went out and got Eddie House, James Posey, and then ultimately of course PJ Brown, which was a great story about being recruited, literally being recruited by the big three or points out thereof. And so I was, you know, I was a skeptic I didn't think it was going to be enough but never dreamed that would just come together as quickly as it did those guys Was so ready to do it, you know to to get it to have it

they recognize what the possibility was and they were so ready to do it and and it was we're going to require the word sacrifice it's going to require a balance of skills And it was going to require the word sacrifice. It's going to require a balance of skills that they're going to have to calibrate. I love that word, calibrate their skills to get the most out of it. But ultimately, there's nobody like Kevin Goinette. He's special in terms of the approach that he would, as good as all-around scale players, Pierce was and great shooter Allen was, you know, we all know that the ultimate key person

on that whole thing that made it work was Kevin Garnett. Yeah, the sad thing, you talked about earlier how you don't judge players by championships. You look at KG like just this completely misused asset in Minnesota forever, like gets drafted in 95. We had to 2007, he's won two playoff series. And meanwhile, everybody's like, I think he might be the best player in the league. Like nobody even knew how to put them in context.

Cause he just had such bad luck. His owner gets penalized for the Joe Smith signing and they lose like three first round picks in a low, like, like Stefan Marbury just decides he wants to go to New Jersey and that happens. Like it's just, there's 30 different things that prevented him from ever succeeding in the NBA in the way he should have, which sometimes that's how it plays out. I don't want to hold it against him unless I have a certain, you know, antipathy for somebody in a sense, you know, I, I want to hold it against him unless I have a certain, you know, antipathy

for somebody in a sense, you know, I like to hold it against him. But if I don't care about them personally, and their game, then you know, fine. And it's like, you know, I think I got tired of people jumping on because he's never won a championship and obviously never will. Chris Paul, it's not his fault. And once again, we get back to a little guy thing. You know, Chris Paul's great player, great point guard, a class, a technically pure point guard, perfect guy, you know, and in that job it's in the worthy hall of Famer. So I'm sorry,

I don't judge him for not having won a championship anymore. And I judge Stockton for not having won it. They could have, I hold Carmellone accountable though. I think they could have beaten the Bulls in 97 for sure and should have. Mrs. Freep goes, he's not a guy you want in a big moment. I'm telling you, Carmellone was not, I think he's the most overrated great player, supposed great player in NBA history. I do. He's not in my not just a top 10 forwards at all.

He's one of the main reasons I decided to write a basketball book, because I didn't want people 50 years from now to be putting him in the top 10 because of his stats. It's like, we gotta fix this. Somebody's gotta go on the record. You'll love this. I don't know.

There was a period of time when I carried in my wallet a little list of 10 forwards better than Karl Malone. I swear to God it was such a topic for me. And it's not a bad humbling or anything like that, you know? No, that's not it. But I just, all those thousands and hundreds of millions of points and and I'm sorry, he doesn't, he wasn't a guy you want. You're, I'm going to your other guy like that was Elvin Hayes. Oh, who ends up winning the title, but he's, wasn't he like benched in the fourth quarter when they actually won the title?

I forget the story. Yeah. He was in the game seven. He went out of the game for whatever reason. And Mitch Kupchak came in and made the big play of the game and he wouldn't have been in the game if Elvin hadn't come out. So they wouldn't have won if Elvin hadn't been watching from the bench. That's for sure. And I loved it.

I'll tell you what I relished. 1975 when the Warriors swept them and the rookie Keith Wilkes, 661, God knows what, 80, 90 outplayed Elvin Hayes, you know, four inches taller, 50 pounds heavier, you know, and he outplayed Elvin Hayes. I loved every second of that. Do you think Hardin is the this generation's version of those guys? Hardin? Yeah. in is the this generation's version of those guys. Pardon. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, I'm, I can't stand watching him play. And, and, and, and, and so to a degree I am, you know, uh, vindicated that he doesn't come up in the playoffs the way people think he should, you know, I just can't stand watching that dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble game. And, and I always say he must have bribed every scorekeeper in the league. I don't know how there's assist. I don't remember any of this assist, but they're there to the point of the league, right? I guess I still can't believe it.

I don't know how, but I mean, that's just my personal preference. I'm not a big hearted guy. Where do you stand on and bead? On joelle and bead Oh and be named after I said the beast I want to like him very I love his game Uh, you know, I mean I love his skill range of skill and offense is tremendous And and i've seen him in games where I i've just loved. But just something, and he's an engaging online presence,

that's for sure. But he's on another level. He's not, even though he did get an MVP, and I think I would have voted for him, but he's not Joe Kitchen, he's not Giannis. He's another level down where he belongs. But he's on the way to Hall of Fame. There's no,ice. He's the next, there's another level down where he belongs, but in a, but he's on, it's on the way to hall of fame. There's no, I have no problem with that.

All right. This was a good hour. Stay healthy. You know, he's, he has a hard time staying healthy. Well you've, I mean, you've been watching this forever. These centers, once the injuries start, it's not like it gets better once, you know, they're like buildings with like real structural foundation problems. And then at some point it becomes a problem. And it feels like, it's like, once you've had a few of those surgeries, injuries, whatever, I don't know.

I just don't, when you're seven foot two, I don't know how you like, Oh, now I'm fine. I, you know, I don't see it. Yeah. Big guys. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Just a good point.

So like I saw Kyrie Irving at the Laker game yesterday, right? And he tore his ACL. I feel like he can come back. He's six, two, like, you know, he's a guard. He can, I feel like he can bring back his movement and get back in a year. But when you, you know, you've had a bunch of these anyway. All right. Well, that was a really fun hour.

I'm glad we caught up. I needed your take on a bunch of stuff. Bob Ryan. Um, thanks for being Celtic City, by the way. But great to see you as always, Hope all as well. Thanks for having me there and I appreciate it very much, so on. All right, thanks to Mahoney and Joanna and Bob.

Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. You can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch this as a video podcast on Spotify going forward. We are going to be live on Sunday. At some point, we don't really know the basketball schedule yet, but it's going to be me and Marcello at some point on Sunday and we'll be going live on YouTube. For that, enjoy the weekend. I will see you on Sunday. I'm gonna see them run away so I never wanna say I don't have feelings with them Gambling problem call 100 gambler visit RG dash help calm call one eight eight seven eight nine seven seven seven seven or visit

ccpg org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling help org in Maryland Hope is here visit gambling helpline ma org or call eight hundred three two seven fifty fifty four twenty four seven support, Massachusetts Or call one eight seven seven eight hope and why or text hope and why in New York?