The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Dame-Jokic Classic With Big Wos, and Big 3s and LeBron’s Evolution With Chris Bosh

Episode Date: June 2, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Wosny Lambre of 'The Ringer NBA Show' to discuss the Nuggets’ double-overtime Game 5 win against the Trail Blazers, Damian Lillard’s historic performance, and the unsolvable Nikola Jokic (3:00), before hitting the Lakers’ Game 5 loss to the Suns, the talented Atlanta Hawks, the upcoming Round 2 Bucks-Nets series, Clippers-Mavericks predictions, and more (33:00). Then Bill talks with two-time NBA champion, Hall of Famer, and author Chris Bosh about making it into the Basketball Hall of Fame, responding to criticism, his new book, ‘Letters to a Young Athlete’, Round 1 of the NBA playoffs, LeBron James’ evolution as a player since his time as Chris' teammate in Miami, the Brooklyn Nets, the requirements of a “Big 3”, and more (1:03:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Chris Bosh and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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as well as Flying Coach, Peter Schrager, Sean McVay. Two are in the books for that one. That has been a really fun season so far. New rewatchables from me. We did, what did we do? Memento.

Yeah, it's basically the 20th anniversary. Me and Chris broke that down. And we did the categories. We basically didn't do the categories in order in honor of the movie. Coming up in this pod, Big Waz, Waz Dean Lambree, he is going to come on and break down

an incredible Denver Portland game as well as some topsy-turvy Lakers Sixers situations and whether

whether it's okay to sports hate this Brooklyn team and then Chris Bosh Hall of Famer two-time champ author he's coming on

asked him about the big threes in Brooklyn versus the big three he had in Miami and a whole bunch of other fun basketball stuff. It's all next first. Pearl Jam. All right.

We are taping this 9.19 p.m. Pacific time. Big Wazz is here. We decided to wait until after the Suns-Lakers game, which was over in three seconds. It ended two hours before the Blazers Nuggets game and Blazers Nuggets ended up being the game of the round of round one. So many subplots, so much to love. It turned out to be Jokic versus Dame and they did a little one up thing.

And then Dame, I feel like he scored 35 points in the first overtime. There are coaching mistakes galore. Denver held on. What will you remember the most about this game? That Dame somehow lost, even though he was just insane. Like, you know, 17 of 24, 12 of 17 from the three-point line. Like, this is, you can't play better than that as a wing player in this league and he lost somehow that's that's what i'm gonna remember that he was just insane you know a lot of people talk

about what mike did against the celtics and it was legendary but people don't talk about him losing that game when he's when he scored 63 right uh this this was not that this was that right because no dame has kind of been a known commodity it's not like he's bursting onto the scene but man to shoulder that load and to play this way and and still not get out of there with a victory and probably man the critical game of the series that's tough you know the thing i loved about this so he finished with 55. He only missed seven shots, made 12 threes. But he also, he made all the right decisions. If anything, you could ding him because he trusted his teammates too much.

He was so red hot. It was like, don't pass anymore, Dame, because CJ wasn't feeling it. There was a weird Carmelo kind of runner where he ended up kicking it back out when eight years ago he just would have pulled up and made a 15 footer. But he doesn't. His wheels don't work the same way anymore. But his teammates kind of let him down. But I felt like Dame was just like, you know what? I'm going to make the right play over and over again.

And then when he had to do the crazy threes, I was watching with my son. And my son just sees everything through the video game lens. Cause he's been playing 2k for the last year and a half. So he just expects the guys to score 78 points and make 30 footers. And Dane was actually doing that. He was like, Oh, he was making 30 foot step backs with centers on him. It was immense. I, I will remember him from this game, even though they lost.

And Jokic finished with 38 and made five of the most incredible passes I've ever seen. Yeah, you know, you mentioned Dane giving the ball up. It's not in his nature not to make the right play. He's actually somebody who's always kind of pacing himself. He's always in complete control of what it is

the defense is trying to do to him and where the openings are. It's just that he's so great at scoring. And sometimes in a playoff setting, this, you know, sort of making the right play is kind of, you can't do it because not everybody's going to be able to perform in the ways that they do in the regular season, right, you have a playoff, you're having legitimate playoff crowds now. So sometimes it's just kind of like, yo,

these guys might not have in order to give it on a given night, but I don't want to ding Dame for being damn near perfect and still not being able to do it. Maybe you should have been more perfect though. Like you said, I mean, Covington missed two dunks in the two overtimes. That was disgraceful. And the second one was a dunk he didn't even need

to dunk. Just lay it in. You need points? What are you doing? It's not February. You're not trying to get out of the house of highlights? Yeah, he cocked it all the way back like he was Sean Kemp. And it's a bright commercial. So, Portland, everyone made a big fuss about their big summer.

And they ended up with this team where Nurkic just fouls out every game against Jokic. Today, he fouled out in 24 minutes. And they had Kanter guarding Jokic in the OTs. They had Carmelo guarding Jokic in the OTs. Carmelo is guarding the about-to-be-crowned MVP of the league, who is a walking, uh, what is he best average? Like 1.3 points per possession,

1.4. When Carmelo's on him, it goes up to 1.7. Um, and they had no other options. It's like, all right, we'll bring in cancer.

He's not gonna be able to guard him. We double him. He dissects the double. He made a pass to Porter for that three in the corner. And the second overtime, he floated it over three people's heads. Yeah. He made a pass to Porter for that three in the corner in the second overtime. Oh, my God. He floated it over three people's heads? Yeah. He gets the double.

Most times when people get double, they panic or they do. They hold the ball with two hands and they do the steps or they rush. He holds the ball with one hand and regards the double with disdain and kind of looks at everything and then sails this pass over like 10 sets of arms perfect for porter i was i i just think yokage like anyone who's slamming that mvp i hope you're not gonna slam it after tonight no no no you can't slam the mvp like first some people are though so the people didn't like the mvp they were to the bitter end trying to come up with other

guys well those people are wrong, Bill. The guy had the best regular season and he's demonstrating again in the postseason that he's unstoppable. And that particular pass that you're talking about, the best part about it is that there's a guy cutting to the basket and Jokic knows

instinctively that the defense is going to react to him and not Porter in the corner. So he anticipates what the guy's going to freaking do and floats it over everyone's head. It's just, oh, just amazing. But yeah, he's clearly been at an MVP level in this series. Nothing is happening on this team without Jokic having his hand directly involved in it. Every single possession. He's stepped up to the plate.

I know it sounds cliche, but like they're winning and they're doing it without Jamal Murray. And the offense, and you know, not that Portland is a great defense by any stretch, but the offense hasn't missed the beat. Like it's playoffs and Jokic is like, I don't care. This is a playoff defense. I'm going to destroy them anyway.

It's a pretty rare level. Now granted, I don't care. This is a playoff defense. I'm going to destroy them anyway. It's a pretty rare level. Now, granted, round one, as you said, Portland, and at various points in these overtimes, he had Cantor and Carmelo on him. So it's not like he was going against Bill Russell in 1962. Absolutely not. With that said, he has hit this point that is a little similar to like where Dirk was in the

mid two thousands. And then most famously in 2011, where Hakeem was for 93, 94, 95, where it's like your entire offense can just be four guys standing around with space, throwing it to him,

give him 15 seconds. He can back the guy down. If he wants, he can face up, he can step back. He's just got every move in the book. And unlike Hakeem and Dirk, you can't double him. Dirk,

you could send the double. He wasn't going to pick you apart like Jokic can. And who they got next round? It would be Clippers, right? No. No. It would be whoever comes out of Suns-Lakers. Right. So

Aiton, let's say it's the Suns because they're winning by 30 right now. And as we're taping this, they just showed LeBron just walk down the ramp and go in the locker room. He didn't want to watch the end of this. Once you get past Aiton, who else is guarding Jokic on that team?

Sarge? No. No, that's not a thing. Jake Crowder? Frank the Tank is not a thing that can happen against Jokic. That's a poor matchup. But, you know, the thing about Aiton is I thought LA would be a poor

defensive matchup for him. And he's had his moments where he showed some ability on that end, right? And obviously he's just been incredible as a rim runner the entire series. Even in the games that they lost, he was, you know, catching everything and finishing everything, which I know it sounds like, you know, these are NBA guys.

They should be able to catch the freaking ball in the paint. Don't take that for granted. Ask Golden State Warriors fans about their number two overall pick. Like, you can't always expect big men to catch stuff in traffic and finish with soft touch, and Aiton has been able to do that. I just don't think anybody can guard Nikola Jokic. I think the way you guard him is completely kill him on the other end of the floor and get those points back. I don't think there's any stopping this dude.

Yeah, but the thing is, I actually think he's a little underrated defensively now. I don't feel like he's awful. No, he's not. He's nowhere close to awful. Some of the stuff they were doing against Dame in the OTs in the end of regulation, I actually thought was pretty good defense.

I mean, you could argue, we'll talk about this in a second, whether you should have just fouled him or fouled, you know, especially when they're down'll talk about this in a second, whether you should have just fouled him or fat, you know, especially when they're down three with six seconds left, but he knows where to go. He knows how to kind of get in the way.

And it seems clumsy, but he's usually around the right areas. I mean, obviously he doesn't have fast feet, but no, but he does have quick hands though. He does. And obviously he has incredible anticipation and And he's a big dude.

Not that, you know, he's like some amazing deterrent when guys get all the way to the cup, but he's a pretty big person. He knows how to play, use his length when he has the opportunity. So, no, there was a point where he was god-awful, where he was a turnstile, and it was just embarrassing. That's no longer the case and hasn't been the case for a while now. My wife watched some of the second half with me.

She never watches basketball with me. Um, and Jokic was doing stuff and she's like, Jokic, she's good, huh? And I was like, yeah, he's going to win the MVP. And she was looking at him. She's like, wow, he just doesn't look like an MVP. He looks like he should be the bad guy in a movie. And I'm like, yeah, that's why we've had this existential struggle with the concept of him being the MVP for this whole season.

I got there right away. I think other people, he just doesn't pass the face test for people, right? But look, one is the eye test of just watching Denver play and realizing that he's the orchestrator, conductor, whatever you want to call him. But like all of the all-in-one metrics you want to use, the real plus minus, box score, P, R, value over replacement, you name it, all of those things love what Jokic did on offense.

It's like he's way past everybody in the offensive all-in-one stat. So it's like you can watch it. It can be empirically proven with the sort of analytics or data. There's no case that he hasn't been extremely dominant this season. And, you know, as my man Ethan Strauss likes to say, the thing about Jokic that people don't realize is that, you know, fat is potential in disguise. You you know like he lost the weight you know he's gotten quicker he's dribbling past people now right how many times did he dunk the ball this year you know like he's in his peak

physical condition and his understanding for the game is obviously at a level that with some of the all-time greats that we've seen i'm not surprised by what he's doing i i just think it's weird that people is so against something so obvious to me i did that draft in 2014 i don't even remember thinking about him for two minutes when in the prep because in that you're that you're preparing for everybody right you're trying to prepare for like the top 35, basically. Right. He was not, I didn't have a lot of notes on Jokic.

He was just this fat kid from Serbia, basically. And they took him 41st. They took him at the point in the draft when you're kind of recapping on TV. Yeah. Each team's draft. The draft is over by the time the 41st big happens. So now, so heading into this game, career, he'd played 37 playoff games and he was 25.4 points a game, 11.2 rebounds, 6.5 assists. So all those numbers will be jacked up now.

So now we're looking at 26, 11, 7 for 38 playoff games, somewhere around there, which is like with the greats. Now the stats are a little bit on steroids these days. And I think that has to get factored in. We almost need some word when the announcers are talking about it, like only Wilt Chamberlain and Larry Bird have ever scored 30. And it's like, all right, well, the points,

it's a little easier to get stats in 2021. Rosilla did a really good thing on his pod this week about just the points per 100 possession and how last're a bit last year was the record Dallas 115.9. This year we have like eight teams that are at 115.9. It's just the offense is just getting better and better and harder to guard. And there's more threes and it's hard to compare this stuff with errors. But the point is like he gets better in the playoffs. Yeah.

And we're, we're supposed to like the guys who get better in the playoffs. So anyway, I don't know if I'm arguing against a straw man right now, but I get mad whenever anyone disses Jokic. I don't get it. No, I think there is definitely a strain of it. And I think there was a lot of skepticism, specifically super early in the year when he was killing people, but the team wasn't having any success, right?

Like they kind of stumbled out the block to start the season. What I will say about his playoff stats, you know, aside from three games against the Lakers, who we know were just an incredible defense as a team defense last season, like his teams have always scored in the playoffs. It's not like they're getting stopped. Even if you don't want to count his individual offense, just by comparison of all other playoff offenses, Denver is always getting buckets consistently. And again, it's because of this guy and his fingerprint and him putting his finger on the scale of their offense. So even if you don't want to say, oh, the individual stats, no, they're scoring at a high quality in comparison to the rest of the teams in the playoffs.

So, like, just give the guys credit. He's definitely the MVP, and he's probably going to the second round. And they're getting good shots. Now, the thing to me, like, he already has the MVP case, but then you see it in the playoffs. Like look at the dudes he was playing with. Composite started.

He played 21 minutes. He's one for five. Austin rivers played 47 minutes. He didn't play for anyone for 10 months. He's a scrap heap guy. They got him off the scrap heap. That, that like, that's, that's insane. He 47 minutes for a dude.

You basically collected off of waivers, and he's making critical shots for you in the playoffs because Jokic is setting stuff up and allowing for that to even be the case. That's amazing. And then Monty Morris, who finished with 28, 11 free throws, made four threes, played 41 minutes and basically did a poor man's Murray impression.

Right. And I guess the question is, can this team win three rounds with some combo of Monte Morris and an occasional decent Compasso game filling those Murray minutes? I I'm, I'm drifting toward no, but then I think about the other teams in the West and we'll talk about the Lakers after the break, but like the Lakers just might not be in this. They might be gone in three days.

And our four teams that could be left could be Clippers, Utah, Phoenix, and Denver. And none of those four teams seem like final teams to me. I'll be rooting for the Clippers because I could go to a finals game, but right. But I'm just proximity, you know,

but the thing is, I think like there was one of the last games they played the Clippers when they were at full strength, Denver was, and they just kicked their asses up and down the court for 48 minutes. Like they have no fear of that team. They just know like we're better than you. We showed it to you in the playoffs. We're cooking you every single time. And again,

like this was why to why they just dominated them that game. However, I don't think that they're that they present the same problems without Murray against the Clippers specifically. But it's so funny, Bill, how the NBA turns, right? The Clippers go down 0-2 and it's like, Jesus, are we really going to flame out in the first round this time? The Lakers are up 2-1.

LeBron is catching dunks off the backboard, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. AD goes down with a groin. They basically have been destroyed ever since. I say all that to say these things can turn really quickly. So maybe you're right.

Maybe just having Jokic spray the ball around to a bunch of dudes will be enough because of some other injuries. But I think as it stands right now, if the Lakers somehow advance and they got a pretty decently decent enough health-wise

AD, and I think Phoenix at full strength probably beats them, though. The Monte Morris thing and the Composal thing, it's like that's... I'll tell you, though, we've seen this happen. There's been weird years, right? The 99 Spurs. It was like you can't

win a title with Avery Johnson. It's not happening. That dude's bounced around he's garbage he's not a starting point guard get the fuck out of here and they pretty easily beat the knicks in five the rockets in 94 that the year before they got drugs or it was like you know know, Cassell, young Kenny Smith. Yeah, like, who are these dudes? Young Robert Horry, et cetera. I mean, Mario Ailey, et cetera, et cetera. It was Hakeem and the Hakeemettes, it seemed like it. And then they kind of ran out of shape. I don't think Denver has the same kind of talent as those teams, but we have seen scenarios.

The 0-3 Spurs, when it was basically Duncan, and it was Manu and Parker were not Manu and Parker yet. They were, they were young pups. Robinson had a back brace. Stephen, Stephen Jackson, captain Jack was probably their second best player. They won the title. So I'm not going to rule Yoke edge out to make the finals with how good he's been. But you know, the Austin rivers part is amazing to me. He's been on, I think, six teams in three years.

And he was sitting there for anybody to grab. Going to the Blazers quick. Dame versus Curry in the situation we saw tonight, where Curry is so unique and so special. But then you catch Dame on the right night. It's almost like having like a De Niro-Percino situation in the nineties, right? Where it's like, these are the two best actors. I still have Curry over Dame, but the stuff Dame did tonight, it's, they're kind of in a class of their own. It's those two guys, maybe Kyrie, if, if there's enough incense in the, in the building

and his chromosomes have settled in his brain. There's enough sage in the, in the building and his, his chromosomes have settled in his brain. There's enough sage in the building. Maybe him for four minutes every once in a while. But other than that, this is it, right? This is a list of two. Do you have anybody else with them? No, I mean, no, not in the detonation explosion realm. Um, I guess, you know, sometimes we've seen, we've seen Luca get there very early on in his career that's a good one you're right you know but like i don't think you feel the the dread of like this guy comes off of a screen he's barely turned the corner he's 35 feet away and he's just pulling up

yeah you know like that level of panic not even luca presents those problems for defenses. And, you know, like we said at the top, it's Dame is not, he's not forcing it. He's so locked in to what exactly it is his team needs from him. Yeah. And so he makes it look clinical out there. Like 24 shots, like this is, it's crazy that on 24 shot attempts, this guy can get to 55 points. Um, you know,

obviously I think Steph is better. Um, but the, just the, how close it is surprises me on all the time. Like, wow. Like Dame can get to the level that Steph has gotten to in the past.

Well, I'm trying to think of other guys in our lifetime. Down three, 10 seconds left, and the other team for inexplicably. Remind me to attack Mike Malone in about 90 seconds. Where if they're not going to foul, you just feel like the guy's going to make it. Right.

That's not a long list. That's Curry. That's Dame. I'm just trying to think of the last 20 years. From 30 feet. From 22 to 30 feet. It's those two. You have to guard these guys. I think that's it.

That's the list. Maybe Durant? Nah. I don't think Durant has ever been that 30 foot sort of threat. And the thing about KD is that when you're 7-foot, you don't feel like you need to take it from 30 because nobody can contest your shot when you pull up.

So he always manages to get pretty close to that damn line. The thing with Dame, he's like, you know what? These guys are going to try to blitz me. They're going to try to make me give the ball away. How about before they even get here, I will shoot this thing from freaking Oakland, even though the game is in Portland. And that's the thing from three. And, you know, the funny thing is there was a point where his teammate,

Carmelo Anthony, was not a three-point threat, but it was like if he had somebody isolated one-on-one at the end of the game, especially in his Portland days. No, excuse me, in his Denver days. He was a pretty scary guy. Obviously, there's the Kobe's, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, from three, it's absolutely Damon Steph. And I know some people are going to be in my mentions,

the freaking Kyrie Hive. Yes, I know he made a big shot in 2016. Yes, he's made big buckets in his life, but I still don't think Kyrie is. Not with the consistency. Not in a situation where it's like we're up 9 in OT. I don't feel safe at all. If you're Denver, you're like, we're up 9.

Hold on, how much time's left? Two minutes? Oh, fuck. Oh, Dame's going to get his N1. Now we're down 6. Now we're up 6. Oh, we didn't score. Oh, Dame just hit a 3. Now we're down six. Now we're up six. We didn't score. Dame just hit a three. Now we're up three. What happened? And then he does it again.

It's, I wonder if Trey can get to this level. I was thinking about watching Dame today. Trey, I guess, would be, if you're thinking about, it's not like he's a different generation, but he's,

you know, the younger brother generation, basically. And could Trey get to this? And what, you know, I younger brother generation, basically. And could Trey get to this? And what, you know, I think the Dame and Curry piece, Curry eventually evolved into a killer, but still had that sense of the moment, sense of the stakes, you know, from even back in college,

where he would rise to the moment. So we knew he had it in him. Dame has had it really ever since he got to the league. And I think Trey will be somebody to watch. I've certainly come around on him the last couple months. And, you know, we'll see what happens tomorrow night in MSG. That should be a game. They're better.

They should close them out. And he should be the villain and do Trey stuff. But we'll see if he's ready to be that guy. Quickly, Mike Malone. So just repeatedly doesn't foul Dame. Do I just, I don't understand it because he has all good free throw shooters on his side, but then does the unbelievable Yokeage Porter pulls him out of the game offense defense with like eight seconds left in the first overtime up three Dame gets an easy three anyway he's one-on-one he makes it and now they don't have any timeouts and they can't put

down a porter or Jokic and end up getting like an Austin Rivers three if they had lost that game it would have been a rough 24 hours for Mike Malone yeah and some people might say he's being too cute by half by, you know, taking out two stars to, for all defensive possessions. You know, some people will be, I don't know. I like, I'm kind of the mind where my guys got to play, you know, but I'm also the same guy who's like, I mean, should you really be tanking Clippers? There's just something about like, put your freaking guys out there and get it done. Right. So i'm somebody who's always gonna say yo you should be instilling a certain level of confidence in this guy to be like yo you're our freaking mvp i'm not taking you out of this freaking game some people who don't really believe in the human aspects of nba basketball will say

no fuck that he's slow-footed. It's a defensive possession. Take his ass out. We don't care that he's the MVP. I'm maybe a little bit, you know, a soft humanist in that way. I would have kept him in the game because he's my freaking MVP. There's a parallel game to this.

2013 game, game six. Timmy Duncan comes out twice. Offense, defense. And then they don't get the biggest rebound of their entire season. Right. Actually, they don't get it twice. Right. And it's like, well, maybe Duncan would have gotten it.

It's like, no, Tim Duncan's like the seventh best player of all time. I'm pretty sure he would have gotten one of those rebounds. I'm pretty sure I would have wanted him out there. I don't care if it was an older version of Tim Duncan. I'm not going offense-defense. Fuck you. Keep him in. You know what I will say about game six too? Not to

you know, I don't want to get pop or whatever, but like Tony Parker made two impossible shots. Two possessions in a row. He made a step back three. This guy can't shoot threes. He never could shoot threes his whole career. And on a bum ankle.

Yeah. So people always talk about the Ray Allen shot, which was crazy. The circumstances. But Tony Allen had made two impossible shots right before that. We never talk about those lucky Tony Allen shots. I mean, excuse me, Tony Parker shots. Forgive me. That was the best non-Celtics game I've ever been to.

It was really like, it was really something. This game tonight was the best game of the playoffs. I don't feel like Portland's done. I felt like this was going seven from day one. I fully expect Portland to win game six. And I fully expect to be in Denver for game seven. Their crowd was good tonight. Yeah, it was pretty loud.

And, you know, the, the, the. They seem less stoned than usual. The Denver crowd. Usually they seem a little lit. And the TV crew sound stuff is getting a little bit better. Cause like, you know, when they're doing the remote stuff and it's like, we finally, it's, it finally it's it it kills me it kills me that these guys aren't in those arenas yet uh some and obviously there's like some home crews who are doing it like i know brooklyn with sarah and them and

iron eagle are in there but like you know having clyde and and mike breen in the garden for that one what's gonna probably end up being the only Nick win. That was amazing. That was special. By the way, why aren't these people in the arena? I don't understand. I don't know. What are we doing?

I feel like everybody's asleep. All right, we're going to take a break. We're going to come back, and we'll talk about Brooklyn quickly, and then we'll talk about that goofy Lakers series. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. Movember alright so I went on Real Ones with Logan and Raja last night

and they asked me what I thought was going to happen in game 5 I think the perception was like AD's out LeBron's going to be bringing it and and I was like and I made a prediction

on the show this was 24 hours ago I said I don't think LeBron's going to bring it I think he's going to bring it. I think he's going to feel the game out. He's going to see if his supporting guys are going to do something. And if they're around, he'll turn on the jets and he'll try. And try, I mean, like do the full LeBron, try to get to the rim, all that stuff. But I think he's going to feel the game out. And if it's not there,

he's going to save all of his power boost chips for game six, game seven, because that'll also buy more time for Davis. It was not to toot my own horn, but this was exactly what happened. He came out, he just shot long shots. He,

he was zero for zero from the free throw line in the first half. He was determined not to put any miles on him in this game. If he didn't think his teammates were going to show up, they did not show up. I think he knows this team pretty well. And I think deep down, he probably knows like, all right, if Davis is 70% for game six and 70% for game seven, we can win. I got to go. I have to go all out in those two games. I know game six, I'm going to get every call. And I'm saving everything for game seven. And game seven will be the one.

There will not be a zero for zero free throws in the first half. But as you watch that first half unfold, were you surprised at all by how it unfolded? I was surprised at the level that the Lakers couldn't get stops. They couldn't score worth a damn either.

It was like, you know, it was a stinker. They were in the 30s, so they were inept at offense too. But I was surprised at the level that just not having AD meant that they couldn't stop this team.

Like, with AD out there, they've been fine. Like, again, like to to go back to game four they were rolling they were about to take control of the game take control of the series were they at 11 yeah they they got up quick and you know again lebron is smacking the backboard and catching alley-oops and he's doing the thing. And it's like, yeah, we're done with these guys. AD goes down and Phoenix is like, oh, hold on now. This ain't the same animal without AD.

And you could sense it. You could sense that they felt like empowered and emboldened by not having to deal with AD specifically on the offensive end. So I was just surprised. I'm like, damn, I know AD is your best defensive player. He's probably to me the best playoff defender that we have at this point now because of all of the things

that he can do. Maybe even a little bit. Over Carmella? You see Carmella working yoga today? So, you know, I was just surprised by the level at which they couldn't do anything because AD wasn't in the game. So I was I'm going to be interested in game six to see what type of defense they bring. The effort just wasn't there. The LeBron effort wasn't there.

The whole like, you know, bum hunting, attacking the paint, you know, backing down, starting every single possession on the freaking block. He wasn't doing that. He didn't do his break class in case of emergency LeBron stuff that we've seen in previous playoffs. You know, like straight up like, hold on, campaign? If you're in the freaking game against me, I'm running pick and roll and you're switching on to me and I'm freaking taking you to the basket. Like that's, that's the LeBron we've been used to seeing in the playoffs where he's just like, all right,

I just slow the game completely down and attack every single terrible matchup that the other team has. He did none of that tonight. And you know, this wasn't a do or die game. And if you really feel like you're the more talented bunch, once you have ad, even in a limited capacity,

I can understand why he didn't put the gas to the pedal. I joked last night after my prize-winning theory that I ended up winning the prize. It's a better narrative if they come down 3-2. If he's trying to do his last dance documentary, it's better.

Down 3-2 in the suns with Davis Hobbold. The Lakers only had one man to turn to I'm not saying he wanted to lose the game but it's he's saving it for 6-7 we know he's a storyteller dude Phil you are

tapping into something that I deeply feel within me and I remember when our friend I heard Windhorse say it first he was like yo lebron's a drama queen he likes drama he likes that he likes drama he loves drama like he he wants the drama and so it's gonna be dramatic game six is going to be dramatic and if they happen to win it game seven is gonna be all eyes on the Lakers.

You know, can they do it? Blah, blah, blah. So I'm kind of with you. No, I'm not even kind of. I'm in 100% agreement with you. He will be in game seven, 2018 Celtics-Cavs-LeBron mode, where he will try to impose his physicality on the game from the first quarter on. And he will control every aspect of it. It was clear tonight that he was not going to show us that version tonight.

He's saving that for six. They're going to have the fans. He knows he's going to get any call where he bounces into anybody. They're calling it. They'll love to have a game seven. Game seven game seven would be? I guess Saturday night or Sunday? One of those. It'll be a weekend one. So that'd be good. So some red flags for them. Schroeder

was 0 for 9 tonight. Yep. And in general, I think, you know, playing for a new contract, hasn't been playing that great. I don't know if he's been the best fit because he's kind of one of those,

I got this sometimes, guys, where it's like, no, you actually don't have this. LeBron James is on your team, but he'll have the we're down to all of a sudden, instead of LeBron having a ball, Schroeder will go flying down the lane with some floater, and it's like, no. Don't. No. Stand over on the side.

Give the ball to LeB to Brown so that's not great you know they're still trying to play roulette Macklemore was 0 for 5 tonight Caldwell Pope was 0 for 1 Morris was 1 for 2 but like they still haven't figured out their swing guy situation and then the German thing

he's putting up these fake stats that don't actually matter if you're watching the game and then the Gasol piece of it which I think the Suns have now figured that out he's putting up these fake stats that don't actually matter if you're watching the game. And then the Gasol piece of it, which I think the sons have now figured that out. They got smoked when he was in there tonight. Then they throw Harold out there. Harold just looks like he's living a nightmare.

I don't know. Like he, he, I could see him just not showing up for like game seven, just be like, where's Harold? He said, nah, he said,

fuck it. I'm not coming. They played 14 guys tonight. How's Harrow? He said, nah, he said, fuck it, I'm not coming. They played 14 guys tonight? How is that possible? Yeah, the Schroeder bit of it is a little... It's tough because they have to

play both ways in the sense that we know that LeBron doesn't want to do everything all the time. He's kind of been in that point of his career where he's like, bro, I need to take some of these offensive possessions off where I have a guy that I can just throw him the freaking ball and just play off of it. Like he wants that, right?

Like Rondo gave them a nice bit of that. And Schroeder was supposed to provide some of that pressure valve for LeBron where it's like, all right, it's not on you to orchestrate every single possession for us. That being said, you know, it sometimes tips in the other direction where it's like, okay, you might be doing this a little too much. We know LeBron needs some level of rest on the offensive possessions, but like, you might be doing this too much. I just think Schroeder's just, he's kind of just an inconsistent guy. He's shown himself to be that. He should be a bench guard is really his destiny.

He's a 25 minute a game on a great team guy. And it wouldn't surprise me to see him have a much better game in game six, right? Like, you know, get to the free throw line, get to the cup, actually make the wide open shots that Phoenix is giving him. I can see things turning around for him. But yeah, that's concerning if I was him and his agent, because they turned down the Fred Van Vliet deal and was like, excuse me, I'm a $100 million guy. I'm not this $80 something million guy.

So, you know, I would be concerned on that end. But I think the Lakers effort was piss poor tonight. I think they can play a lot harder and better. They're certainly not. I think they're probably not better than Phoenix without AD. What about with a 70% AD who's got a sore groin?

Are they better than that? I'm going to say maybe not. That was another good Booker game. People were calling for it. Booker and LeB was another good Booker game. People were calling for it. And if Booker and LeBron just cancel each other out and now you have 70% AD and a bunch of role players, I don't know if I trust it's sitting there for the sons. And the scary thing about them,

like they're only 14 for 42 from three today. They will have the random game when they go like 20 for 40 from three, you know, I got, I, we got to do this. I know, I know it's technically illegal to be a member of the media and to poke fun at LeBron because, you know, we're all living in LeBron's world these days. Um, can we just go through some of the excuses

he might use if they just get bounced in game six, just put yourself in LeBron shoes. Cause I think my go-to my favorite, if we're doing the LeBron betting odds for, um, kind of pissy excuses he'd make would be it's ridiculous. We had this season so close to the bubble. We could never get our stuff together to be a seven seed and to have to play a really great Phoenix suns team around one when we're the defending champs. I just thought like, you know, this whole season was a money grab and I didn't appreciate it. I think that's the leading contender in the clubhouse.

Any other LeBron excuses for you? You know, I don't need to skip over the obvious one that's waiting there. It's like, my guy got hurt. Like, we weren't 100%, et cetera, et cetera. Like, AD got hurt. He's clearly one of the best players in the freaking world. Our team is centered around having him be the centerpiece of our defense. And so we couldn't get it done.

We hang our hats on defense, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Other than that. Hold on.

Hold on. Can I expand that one? Cause I like when he brings in the history and then he could have other years where he'd be like, it reminded me of 2015 when I thought we had the best team and we had too many injuries. And then same thing for 2014. If Dwayne had been healthy, you know, maybe that spurs series is different.

He'll list basically all the losses he's had. He has the ankle. He has the high ankle that he could still go to. Like, that's still, like, that was just the other day where he was missing games for the the ankle. He has the high ankle that he could still go to. Like, that's still, like, that was just the other day where he was missing games for the high ankle. So he has the AD injury. He has a high ankle. I don't think he has to do something as drastic

as coming out with the cast. I forgot about the cast. He had an allegedly broken hand. We hadn't heard a single thing about your hand, and now it's in a freaking cast? I'm ready for a Netflix five-part documentary just about the hand and the cast. What happened?

But, you know, allegedly he did punch a door when JR ruined Game 1 for them, ruined his masterpiece. That's alleged. But it just rubbed people the wrong way because it's like, oh, my God, really? The series is over, and now you're freaking grabbing a cast. That's a legend. But it just rubbed people the wrong way because it's like, oh, my God, really? The series is over and now you're freaking grabbing a cast. That's dramatic.

That's dramatic, LeBron, right there. But I don't think he'll have to. It's kind of obvious. It's obvious. You know, guys are breaking down. He already had an injury. It's obvious what's happening to them. He's a storyteller.

Nope. He's a creator. I like when he goes at the league. I think he has to go at the league about the money grab. Meanwhile, him and Chris Paul control the league. If they didn't want to have a 72-game season, guess what? We wouldn't have had one. They could have just told the guys, like, look,

this is going to cost us a lot of money, but let's just not do it. That was on the table. You know, this whole, yo, why did the league do the all-star game or blah, blah, blah, like, bro, like, your partners wanted you guys to play. Like, they're your partners. They're the ones. What's up with these playing games? It's like, you and Chris Paul control the league.

You think they would have a playing game if you said something? And again, like, you know, like, you know that the TV deal is coming. Nobody knows this better than you guys. You know the next TV deal is coming up. You can't just go like this to your freaking TV partners.

You can't just tell them to screw off. So that was, you know, kind of like every, like, you know why everybody's playing, LeBron. Like, come on now. I was looking at the schedule for the rest of these playoffs. The final schedule is just insane. It starts on July 8th on a Thursday. It goes Thursday, Saturday, Monday, Wednesday, Saturday, Monday, Thursday. There's no Sunday final games.

And we're basically going every other day for the first four, even though there's travel. And I just think, you know, I look at it at Philly and beat, couldn't make it one series before he broke down. He made it three games in a quarter. He got hurt. I was so scared to pick them just because I was, I don't know if I trust the bead. Well, he's already hurt. Then Simmons did it.

Hack a Simmons. Not, you know, not good for next round. Not good for a Simmons. Not, you know, not good for next round. Not good for a fellow Simmons. Not good. And then you look at the Hawks and the Hawks have to be like, Hey, wait a second.

Wait a second. We get to play injured, injured Joel Embiid. And right. And Ben Simmons, who's can't make a free throw. And Doc Rivers is doing the overcompensating Doc Rivers thing to try to, that's my guy, blah, blah, blah.

The Hawks have to be getting ideas here. I'm just saying. I mean, there's no reason they can't beat a Philly team that doesn't have Embiid at reasonably full strength. Talent-wise, they match up with them just fine. Specifically, I just love how Clint Capella's playing. Like, what he gives them on defense is just, he makes them competent by himself on defense.

So, you know, I just think, like, watching the Knicks series, it's obvious that this team is super talented, right? Like, they have, like, I shouldn't say super talented, but they're very talented, like, especially offensively, the firepower that they have. I got to say, I'm gonna allow super talented. I think they have a lot of talent. They have eight guys who can score.

That's the only team in the league that can say that. And Hunter having one-on-one ability is like... The stat people destroyed him. The analytics people destroyed DeAndre Hunt after his rookie season because he did have horrific stats. But people who watched him was like, yo, he already has destroyed DeAndre Hunt after his rookie season because he did have horrific stats you know but

people who watched him was like yo his he already has the pro size he's gonna be a plus defender all he has to do is be like get decent on offenses this is gonna be a great pickup for the Hawks and he's shown like offensive ability not even like oh you're not Tony Allen. Like, no, you can get buckets. Obviously, Gallo gives them what he provides. I'm a huge bogey fan. I think he's a playoff type of guy. Me too. As far as his makeup and his just balls. Like, he's willing to take and make big ass shots.

And he can carry their offense when Trey's on the bench. Exactly. 48 minutes, they have somebody who can run something in an above average way. I like that team. I bet on them at 85 to 1 before the playoffs. To go to the finals? No, to win the title. No way.

No way. My thinking was if they got to the conference finals, I could just go against it. And I would actually, you know, I could make the math work. You know what, Bill? If you weren't as successful as I know that you are, I would be gravely concerned for you. It's a smart bet. How am I looking now?

Hawk Sixers? Joel Embiid limping around? One-legged Joel trying to guard Trae Young. And what about Brooklyn and the Bucs? Did they just disappear from the planet? Well, that's going to be... Neither team will be the same. That'll be like one of those Ali Frazier fights

where after the seventh game, they're just going to be shells themselves. I detest this Brooklyn team. Just sports detest, not real hatred. I just think they're really fun to root against because it's like watching an arranged marriage where just these three guys that just like, hatred. I just think they're really fun to root against because it's like watching an arranged marriage where just these three guys that

just like, hey, we should all just and then they just kind of rig this and now they don't really have a fan base. They've only been played together a couple games, but they're trying to like speed rush all of this where contender stuff and the handshakes and I don't know. I just find it annoying,

but I think it was just because they kicked the shit out of my team for five games. It's not genuine. I can't look at them objectively right now. You can look at them objectively. What do you see? Are they fun to hate? I think the thing about is KD joining this team

right off of the Golden State thing. It's like, that's the sour taste that you're having in your mouth. It's like, really, KD? You're doing this again? Yeah. Like, again. You're doing the stack team thing again.

So I think that's what people are sort of looking at. But for me, honestly, watching Harden has been a revelation to me. I agree. And to see him turn off his Houston mode, like just turn it off. Because you know, Bill, guys get into the mode of playing a certain type of way. And his whole iso ball, this did like

that stuff that he was doing in Houston that a lot of people were sick of. He completely cut it out. Like the fat is gone. He's just pure James Harden point guard mode. And when you guys try to do one-on-one with me, I'm taking you to the rack. I'm getting fouled. I'm getting to my step back. Harden has been really fun to watch because he's played the

best ball of his career easily since being on the Nets team, in my opinion. And to know that a guy could, like, just his basketball IQ was such as, like, all right, I was doing that. Watch me do this completely different thing here in Brooklyn. That's been cool to watch. But, you know, Kyrie with the Boston, they called me names and all of that. It's just, I don't know. I don't know that you could call the Brooklyn Nets likable. You know, the Blake Griffin component where it's like he didn't dunk all year in Detroit.

And now he's like on a trampoline again in Brooklyn. Like there's certain things that I can understand why people are just put off by how this whole thing came together. But I'm personally enjoying the Harden thing because I was kind of annoyed when basketball hipsters were saying his game is unwatchable and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It kind of annoyed me. So I'm happy that he's showing people like, no, there's something really beautiful about what James Harden is able to do. The scary thing,

and I don't know if this will translate to the Milwaukee series because my Celtics weren't very good on the defensive end, to say the least. But you could think you're hanging with them and then they score 10 points in like 40 seconds. And you're like, what happened? Three, three, um, three point play. Another bad. It's like, well, what we're down 17. What happened? They have, they have this, uh, this gear that's pretty frightening. But again,

against Milwaukee, that's a completely different animal. This is a different animal. And it's, it's, it's, it's two things. It's one, you're playing Blake Griffin at center. That's untenable against Giannis. That's not something you're going to be allowed to do. And, man, maybe the Miami Heat offense is just way worse than I thought. But the Bucs defense in the first round was scary. It was. I was just shocked.

And people were hitting me on Twitter. People were like, nah, watch this team for 72 games. It wasn't this. They looked insanely good on defense, executing their switches, swarming people. Drew Holiday was just being rude to all manner of Miami Heat players the entire game. So I think that's what I want to watch. I want to see what the Nets do as far as how they guard the paint. Because KD, I'm sorry, you're going to have to actually play some damn defense.

Like you're going to be counted upon for defense, like paint protection, weak side help, et cetera. And I'm interested to see how the Bucs defense deals with this monster. The foul shooting thing worries me. I might have already invested in the potential of the Bucs in the playoffs. And the fact that Brooklyn never misses a free throw and Milwaukee is just, you know, a rollercoaster ride depending on who's on the line.

That part worries me. Also, Blake Griffin has kind of refashioned himself as this cross between like Bill Lambert, Bruce Bowen and Matt Barnes. Where he's just there's elbows. And like today, he just poked Neesmith in the eye, just like I gouged him like a professional wrestler. He nailed somebody else. He's just his limbs are just going all over the place. And, you know, I can't tell how much of it is intentional.

Because this dude used to be really coordinated. He used to be like the fifth best basketball player in the league. He's not, you know, he didn't turn into Larry Kristeviak overnight. But he also was one of the top five hated guys amongst his peers in the league. And I don't know that that's changed with time. Like, you know, they would always do these polls of like who's most overrated who's this Blake would always be at the top

he would be at the top of the freaking list so it's like evil Blake Griffin now it's like Daniel LaRusso Karate Kid 3 when he got traded by Terry Silver who's coming back apparently and Cobra Kai do you watch Cobra Kai? I did not watch Cobra Kai I heard great you're missing out. I heard great things though.

Yeah, you're missing out. People were going crazy about it. I was like, am I really going to do the Karate Kid thing? No, you got it. 35 years later? Banging out. Banging out. Hold no cast.

Did you watch Mary Easttown? Of course. Of course. That was excellent. Mary Easttown was good. So good. I mean, you know, people are always going to complain about an ending because with a whodunit it's like you're always going to be kind of let down by the whodunit you know but i just i was lit up i like the i like the who did it i'm not going to spoil it in case people

haven't caught up i thought they did a good job with it me too they gave us like 20 different twists and turns at the end i can't believe it was Leo DiCaprio. I didn't see that coming. The Titanic callback. Unbelievable. But yeah, Mayor V's sound was incredible. Kate Winslet is she's just too much. Like the fact that she was even trying to do that Philly accent is like, alright, you on

another level to even attempt that accent. She was on the watch today and she is really British like you hear and she's like 100% super duper British I can say this without spoiling the ending when in the end when she goes

to the certain place that I won't spoil but it's very very significant moment I wanted her to be going to get her high top basketball sneaks to then go outside and shoot some threes because they set up in the beginning. She was this huge high school basketball star in Pennsylvania.

I wanted them to like do deep fake technology and have like Taurasi but put Kate Winslet's face on it and then she just goes out there and she's just trading threes as the credits roll. That would have been the greatest ending of all time. Is that how like, like her, like reflection,

self-reflection of life is like, I hit my sanctuary, the basketball court and she starts making step back, pull up threes. Yeah. I'm back. I'm back to the only place that never let me down. The basketball court. But my shoes are in the attic. That's why I wasn't playing. I was afraid to go up there. But now, now I'm back.

I would have loved the basketball stuff. Any predictions? Give me... So let's go quick and then we'll go. Lakers, Suns, who do you have? I think the Lakers are still going to win this series. I just do. I just don't think they're going to allow the Suns to knock them out in the first round,

especially because they just look so good against them, basically, before AD went down with the grind. It was like they figured you out, Phoenix. So I think the Lakers are going to actually end up pulling this out. And I just think, you know, and this doesn't make me some kind of genius. I think the Bucs and the Nets is actually going to be a bloodbath.

I have the Knicks losing game five and the Hawks advancing. Yeah. I think Hawks-Sixers gets really interesting if Embiid isn't

healthy. I mean, you're watching that Washington-S Sixers game yesterday and it's like, Korkmats is taking big shots. And it's like, the seesaw for them doesn't tip that far where

you're at the, we need Korkmats to make this. And they're just not that deep. You're a 180 million guy, Tobias. Like, Tobias Harris is supposed to be your perimeter savior. I know, like, he's had the best year of his career. Yeah. But no.

Maybe light up the Wizards who could not guard a small forward all year. This is literally the perfect team for you to light up. Then Denver, Portland, I think goes seven. I think the Clip Series is done. I don't think Luka Luca as a bad back guy, I think Luca is more fucked up than, and they're like,

no, no, it's better. It's better today. It's like that stuff doesn't get better in two days. If you have a nerve thing, nerve things take weeks. And I just don't believe the Chris Paul things.

One thing where it's a shoulder contusion, they're just put him, they put them in that machine. There's electroids and they're just running 24-7. You can rejuvenate that. Once you start getting into nerve stuff, that does not come back. And I think that Dallas is done. Yeah.

But basically, once they lost game four, the series effectively was over. They're done. And if you're best player, the only reason why you dominated those first two games is not at what, what we need them to be. There's no reason to think that they're going to win this and shout out to the Clippers, man, for sacking up and making this thing right.

Cause this was about to be, cause come on, man. Like you lost in the second round last year when everybody, everybody said you were going gonna win the freaking championship and then this year you go out and losing the first round after tanking nah that that that would that would have been ridiculous for by clipper standards you know um so shout out to them for making this thing right there's gonna be i think they run away with the rest of the series, and I think we see some

solid fake tough guy stuff from some of the guys in that team. It's a front-runner team. The chess will be puffed out up 19 in game 5. There's going to be some stuff happening, but this lined up nice for them, and Utah is a good

matchup for them. I think Utah is, this is positioned perfectly for them, but at the same time, if you're the clips go small, pull Gobert away, they've done it. We watched them doing third in the regular season.

Um, it seems like they know who their seven are now, now that Rondo's kind of ascended. Um, they ice Beverly, Reggie Jackson's playing more and they've just kind of figured out something that I don't think they're going to be able to figure out. Now, watch Lucas score 70 tomorrow

and we'll all look like idiots. Thanks to Damon Jokic. Thanks to Big Was. We'll hear you. So you're on Ringer NBA show tomorrow night? Ringer NBA show tomorrow night. Myself, Rob Mahoney, the Wunderkind, and Justin Verrier,

who not only doubles as my podcast host, he's also my direct report at The Ringer. He's my boss, Bill Simmons. Justin Verrier is. Unbelievable. So, you know, I always got to be nice to him, man. We like putting our people in uncomfortable positions as much as we possibly can.

All right, Watts, thanks for staying up late with us. Of course. See you guys next time. All right, Chris Bosh is here. Chris, I have some good news for you. You've made the Hall of Fame. You were elected. I don't know if you knew. Did you know? Yeah. Oh, you knew? Damn it. They told me you didn't know.

I thought I was going to break it to you on the podcast. No, congratulations. Appreciate that, man. Appreciate that. You know, it's a dream come true, man. I never envisioned, to be honest, I never envisioned myself in the Hall of Fame, especially at this age. I'm still thinking I'd still be, you know, contributing to the game.

But, you know, at least as a player, you know. But to be in this position man i it's amazing i mean words can't describe you know i've always liked basketball i love basketball and and you know going from a kid who's just obsessed and his dream is to make the nba you know and to actually do that but then like have some success in that too. It's been amazing. You know, it's been a truly amazing. So now your title, now you're a hall of famer and two-time NBA champion, Chris Bosh, or are you two-time champion, hall of famer, Chris Bosh? I feel like you're a hall of famer and two-time

champion, Chris Bosh. Yeah. You know what? You have to, you have to, first you have to see, okay, which accolades are we going to take? Cause we could keep going. And then which order are they going to go with? You know, that's, uh, we've, we've been, we've been writing, doing a lot of writing, trying to figure it out, you know? Yeah. You're an author too. You wrote a book, you did a, it's called Letters to a Young Athlete, but now there's an incredible amount of pressure on your, on your hall of fame speech because it turned out you're a good writer. Who knew? I didn't know.

Who knew, man? I mean, look, pressure lets you know things are real, right? And I have a very good team. We've been talking about these moments, you know, and I didn't think it would come up so quick, to be honest with you. I mean, we've got to kind of really get going. But I'm still confident, man. I'm still confident. I know we can pull off something good.

Can I give you, I'll give you like three tips. Yeah, sure. How, the right speech seems to be like, what, 12 minutes? 12, 15 minutes max? Yeah, I think everybody, I believe, I looked at the thing, at the teleprompter you have 10 minutes I believe

but then that you know they might change it so but 10 minutes usually yeah you want to make sure the crowd you want to make sure they're not zoning out at any point absolutely and I think you have an advantage because you can actually go higher level instead of just thanking all these different people you might actually

be able to drop some pearls of wisdom. Yeah. Author Chris Bosh saying, Hey, I think you could take this to a higher level. I think so, man. You know, it gets, it gets dicey with the, with the thank yous, right? Because there's so many, I mean, come on in a, some people work their whole lives to get to that thing. And it's the basketball hall of fame, right? And you play basketball with a lot of people if you were lucky. So sometimes that's definitely one of the notes I wrote down is saying, okay, how do we, how do we do the thank yous because it has to be condensed,

but it kind of, it gets confusing and then the people don't know when to clap and stuff like that. And it kind of, it kind of becomes a different kind of flow, but yeah, those are things you, you, I guess you have to consider. I'm considering them every day. You could just thank everybody on Twitter and then say, as you know, yesterday, I thanked everyone on my Twitter feed. Go check it out. If you want to see it, look at it.

All the names are there. It's my bibliography. Thank you. That's a good one. That's a good one. Or if you do a lot of thank yous. I think you have to thank the 2013 San Antonio Spurs for not holding on to a five-point lead with 28 seconds left allowing you to have one of the greatest rebounds in NBA history, which we talked about the last time we were on. Yeah, I mean, that's...

I wouldn't say anything. They could thank us for the next year. They're like, thank you. Thank you for all the motivation. Oh, yeah. That's a good one. One of the most interesting... Your book's really interesting, and you spent a lot of time on it, and you could tell.

I thought one of the coolest... It's one sentence. It was something like criticism is the tax for success. Was that what you wrote? Something like that? I thought that was a really cool concept. And I think you're right.

And I think anybody who's been successful at anything that has some sort of public profile to it, you're completely unprepared for the backlash piece and for the nitpicking piece. And when it happens to you, you just can't believe it. You're like, what's happening? This was going so well. I'm realizing my dreams. So now I'm being dissected. And you cover this book

for just for the people listening to the pod. What was your process as you realized how to deal with that? It was kind of easy for me because it was such a dynamic that had changed tremendously. An example I could give you is the summer before the free agency process. Everybody was so nice. Man, even when I was in Toronto, you run into another fan. Everybody's nice. Like, oh, man, I still get to see you score 25 and my team beats your team. Awesome.

I get the best of both worlds. You know, it was non-threatening, you know. And then, you know, everybody wanted me to come to their team. Awesome. I get the best of both worlds. You know, it was non-threatening, you know, and then, you know, everybody wanted me to come to their team. And, you know, you go from, you know, just to scratch a little deeper, you might go from, okay, nobody cares when you're on varsity and in college and up to some point, even in the NBA. And then one day the platform just changes. And now, I mean, even for me, I knew the difference between my rookie year, my first few games. And then the first game I had a big game, my life changed, you know? So there's like so many different levels of fame and notoriety as it goes along as the more successful, you know, you get. But, you know, man, it just changed so fast

and I just wasn't ready for it. And I had to kind of learn on the fly and understand that, you know, this is just going to happen. This is something I have to prepare myself for, obviously, because these other times, this is what happened, whether it's unfair or not. And, you know, it can get nasty and it can be unfair. Not to say that those things are right, but you can probably bet that they're going to occur. You're going to have to experience it

and, you know, deal with it and overcome it, you know. But I want the young athlete to know that it's coming. If you had to do it over again, would you have signed with the Heat in 2010 or no? 100%, right? Every time. Did you doubt it at any point during that first year? Did you think? Oh, yeah, that's a part of the process.

You know, doubt is a huge thing you have to beat. And that's another one of the things I try to address as well. Like, you know, that, that voice in your head is going to tell you, you can't do it. That's just, that's just going to happen. You're going to get, you might get to the championship game and blow it. You know, we did. So take that and learn and say, okay, this is sports. That's what sports is. If, or if you identify with being a coder or a doctor or a lawyer, this is the reality of the arena that you're playing in. You might get all the way there and not perform. But with that said, it will happen.

And these are the tools that you could possibly use to, to overcome that and, and hopefully, you know, see it coming next time and, and, and get it done. You said, you hit a point with the criticism where it was like you were playing to

basically spite people to, to you using that anger as almost a fuel, which LeBron has said very similar stuff. Could you, did you guys talk about that? Like Wade is kind of out of it because he'd already won a title and you guys came to his team. So maybe he wasn't the greatest sounding board for it, but LeBron was going through all the same stuff you were going through.

Was that mentioned, discussed or what? Not really, not all the way. You know, not in a team setting. It was more of the things you try to make sure that you're staying focused on. There were some things that you're aware and sometimes there were

conversations that'll come up. But it wasn't, you tried not to make it a huge source. And even then, it was too much. You know, we were getting outside

of ourselves. And I know in my personal experience, you know, yeah, you start playing angry and, you know, the best thing used to be winning an NBA game because it's hard. People don't understand it. Just to win a game. I didn't say a championship. I didn't say a playoff game. Just to win on a Wednesday night in November is difficult. And to win consistently finally and to feel that way it just it just didn't sit right but we were kind of just in in that narrative um and trying to figure everything else out but you know

uh i think in our experience you know me personally for sure you have to experience that pain you know it's a part of the process like i was was saying before. And, you know, once you once you feel that pain to understand where you are, I can guarantee you after getting embarrassed like that. You know, in my experience, losing to Dallas, my hometown, you know. Yeah. You know, I hit the gym harder than I ever hit the gym before and put even more work in than I did before because I knew before wasn't good enough. I've got to get better. It's kind of what happened to the Spurs after they blew it in 2013 because a team can go

one of two ways after that, right? And they actually stayed together and it gave them an even deeper focus and motivation. Yeah, that team was incredible. That's probably the best team I've ever played against. You know, the 2014 Spurs, I played against. You know, 2014 Spurs. I mean, everything you did would be wrong move. And, you know, they clobbered us. Yeah.

You know, it's funny watching the 21 Jazz. There's some similarities with how they play. I still feel like the Spurs are better, but the ball movement, the shooters, the fact that it's like an eclectic team, right? There's guys from different countries on it. And there's an unselfishness with them. And then they have the random Heechek, Clarkson, stuff like that. But they do kind of remind me of that Spurs team.

The difference is, you know, that Spurs team has Duncan. Yeah. And that young Kawhi, who are two of the top 40 guys ever. Duncan's one of the top 10 guys ever. Utah doesn't have anybody on that level. It's more of like the game today, the way the game is and how fast it is. But yeah, you're right. They do have

that organic feeling offense where they run it so everyone's reeking strong so much to where they see it in their sleep. You know what I mean? But I do understand what you mean there. And they are pretty good. And you know what? I like their position because nobody really believes in them.

You know, they're still the number one seed, but you know, that's how it is, right? You always have to continuously prove yourself. So I'm looking forward to see what they do, how they handle these playoffs. Well, that was the Spurs in 2014. Everybody was like Clippers, it's Durant's time. it's the Clippers' time, Miami's going to win again. And the Spurs, it was kind of like, yeah, they had their moment, they blew it.

And they just kind of flew under the radar. Yeah. And they were, I mean, even the year before that, I mean, the Thunder beat them, but they had them down 2-0. I mean, they were right there knocking on the door every year. We talked about this last time you were on, but we have to talk about it again. So you're watching these games now, and they're even crazier than the last time you were on the pod with how bigs are being used and the threes. Now there's some center stuff, too, going on. But how many times a week are you just like, oh, man, just put me in a time machine?

Put 2008 me in a time machine right now. I want to be 23. All the time. I would love to play in today's league. Oh, my goodness. I mean, just how open it is. The concept of shooting the three, that's one of the things in my career I wish I could have taken.

I think everybody will say this, but I easily could have started shooting threes a lot earlier. I think that would have given us a crazier, different dynamic with the heat a lot earlier. You added it later. Yeah, later in the career. Second season, yeah, because you kind of needed to, to open up the paint.

Even in the second season was, yeah. Yeah, but you still killed the Celtics. I remember two of them in game seven. Yeah, yeah, those were good ones. but you still killed the Celtics. I remember two of them in game seven. Yeah. Yeah. Those are good ones. But yeah, I mean, yeah,

I could have, I could have, I could have shot way more. And, but, but you know, one of the things that I think are missing totally in today's league, where I think I see a lot of young guys,

sure. Spread it, shoot the three, but man, that paint is open. If you master that elbow, there's no help. There is no help. You know, if guys, you know, I can't give away all the gems,

but there's certain things that I see in the game that I'm like, oh, my God. If I could play and, like, everything is a foul, I shoot like 15 free throws a game. I would be aggressive and just really attack the paint. Well, you have a doppelganger who I think has been interesting in the playoffs because he's not there yet. He hasn't put it together yet. But Jaron Jackson Jr. on the Grizzlies, who has somehow been in the league three years and he's like 21 and he's like a baby. He's a completely unfinished product. But so were you when you came into the league at

a, at a Georgia tech and I watch him and I'm like, if, if we put 21 year old Bosch in a time machine and threw him in now, I, I think it would unfold a little like what I think might happen with Jaron Jackson, but you know, he's, there's a work ethic piece. There's an inside outside thing. Um, he's got to improve his low post stuff, but he's, he's the, I don't want to say he's the closest to you, but he's the one who kind of reminds me of young you out of everybody we have right now. Yeah. He, he, you know, he's really good. He, good he um he has like you were saying he's still being uh formed i would say the probably the difference i i was a little more skilled because i had you know in college and you know different training you know we come from different backgrounds and yeah you know my heroes were kevin um you know tim duncan chris weber you know, Tim Duncan, Chris Weber, you know, facing up, you had to, you know, with the skills and the passing and,

you know, it's crazy to say, I was, I was an all-star by the time I was his age, which is crazy. Were you really at 21? Yeah. Yeah.

I was awesome. I always forget how young you were when you came in. So you were, when you actually were an NBA player, how old were you? Uh, I got drafted when I was 19. Jesus. Yeah, I was 19. Jesus.

Yeah, I was 19. And then, yeah, the all-star. Yeah, it was my 22nd birthday was the next month. So, yeah, I was 21 years old. Well, he should be hitting you up. Yeah, it was my third year. I mean, but, yeah, that's just to say how fast, you know, you can evolve if you work on your game.

But, you know, I was a maniac, man. I don't know how, um, I don't know how guys train nowadays. I don't know, you know, what's in the game, but I was obsessed. Like it was, it was, it was another level, man. I looked at games, you know, there were movies to me when I was, when I was looking at them, I dissected them in so many different ways, you know, you know, by that age, I was trying to, and I was trying to be like Ron and Dwayne ever pushed me because they were

all stars the year before. So I'm like, okay, well I gotta, let me, let me work on my gut. I gotta get back in the gym. It's not good enough. So, you know, I had those guys to always strive to get better to try to be like. And Darko. He got the chip, right? It's like, ah, man, come on. You did like a triple take.

You were in a crazy draft where you either had to, that was like the ultimate sink or swim top five, where it's like, holy shit. It really was, man. LeBron, Carmelo, and Wade. Yeah, well, a lot of people, it's interesting how people didn't know who Dwayne was back then. Only those who knew knew.

And then I remember the gym, the arena gasped when they took him at five. It's like, oh, you know. We knew how good he was, you know, but for whatever reason, not everybody was on the, you know, Wade wagon. But, like, you know, not too long after that, he was, he started showing up and then it was like, oh, yeah, okay, now it's, I mean, I've never seen somebody go, this is really in the history

of the game, go from an unknown to superstar that quick. Like the craziest, the craziest thing I've ever seen. I went to, I went to Holy Cross and they played us in March Madness. It was one of the only times we had a chance to actually win a round one game. And him and another guy on that team killed us. And it was one of those things where it was like, wait, who's this guy? And then you look it up.

It's like, oh, he's going to be a lottery pick. When he went five, it was surprising. Because, you know, there were still weird questions about him. But Riley, you know, Riley saw the heat culture thing. Where are we standing on heat culture these days? Tough hit with heat culture with the sweep. It's a tough a tough hit man it's a part of the process man i mean you know and and the main takeaway that i have and i try to use this lesson because i'm you know author and all that stuff now right yeah it's just like man i want people to understand like

see how it is this is this is how it is. This is how it is. What they'll probably say is like, yo, we just finished the season last year and they're in that funk and that haze. It's hard. Yeah. It's fair. The NBA is difficult. It's another season thrown right at you. And guess what?

You're playing the Milwaukee Bucks and they're a little better. And, you know, they just dealt with, you know, those struggles all season. You know, and that's just, that's a part of the process. I think that, I think they all feel they could have had

a better season, right? But I mean, yeah, it's a tough pill to swallow right now. Yeah, it's weird the luck factor with them. They had it last year. And then this year,

even like Oladipo going down when he did, right when it started, it seemed like he could really help them. It's just one of those years. Chalk it up. Yeah, and on top of that, last year I was like,

oh boy, I didn't think they were going to make the finals, but I said, I would hate to play the Heat. Right. In this kind of situation, with this quick turnaround, they're going to really,

really create some problems for a lot of people. And then they end up making, you know, making the finals, competing for a championship. And teams that, a team that didn't need a crowd, which I think as we've seen crowds come back and, you know, they really can have an impact on especially younger teams. The veteran teams don't really, don't really need that.

Yeah. It's a different game, man. You know, the emotions, especially now, you know, playoffs are, playoffs are totally different. So they go from, you know, just a couple fans in the regular season in mostly empty stadiums to right back on. And I'm sure, I am sure it is loud in those places. Probably 17,000 sounds like 30. And I know people are excited to be back in the building. So, you know, it's a lot to deal with, man.

It's a part of the game. Well, a couple of shitheads are a little too excited to be back in the building. Yeah. To weed those out. People need to learn how to behave again. Too much, yeah. Can you learn how to behave in public again, please?

Jackasses. It's like, guys, what are you doing? Come on. Goodness gracious. I want to take a break, and then we're going to talk about the big three in Brooklyn. All right. So you were, you were in a legitimate big three. The word big three gets thrown around, um, in my opinion, a little too liberally these days.

There's only been a few really, really, really great ones. Um, Brooklyn, I think those are three generational superstars. I think Kyrie is probably the weak link out of the three just in terms of what his ceiling is, but that dude also is a 27-point-a-game scorer who made a game-winning shot in Game 7 of a final. So I think he belongs. As you watch the compare and contrast with what you guys had, where there was a much more natural hierarchy.

And we talked about it the last time you were on about how you basically realized, like, I have to pull back. I'm basically the bassist in this band, but I'm still going to get my solos. I'm still getting my stuff and we're going to win. Every now and then. Every now and then. Give me some. Give me a little. The Brooklyn thing is different because you have three guys who are wired to have the

ball to create. Durant's the best scoring forward, I think, of all time. For sure. Harden is one of the best one-on-one players of all time and one of the best creators we've had over the last two generations. And then Kyrie, I think, is one of

the great heat check point guards we've ever had, where it's like, if he gets hot, you have to ride him because he's going to make everything. How do you see the dynamic of those three guys? What happens when they get to Milwaukee next round? There's real defense.

There's a real team. And it's going to have to be like, all right, who has the steering wheel in this car? Because somebody's going to have to grab it. One of the fascinating things about the Nets is that they're living out this experiment in real time. You know, the advantage that we had over them is that we had a whole season.

Even though we lost, we still had, you know, I got hurt for a minute, probably about, I was out a month. But together, we had 60 plus games. So as a team, we knew our schemes. We knew how we were going to play. Those basic fundamentals of our rotation and what we're going to run, we had a decent idea of that. And that's important

to have especially like you say when it's loud you know when when um you know when everything hits the fan you got drew holiday running around guarding people you got yannis in the middle you have chris middleton you got to figure out yeah they're going to be ready and i think you know milwaukee's in a very interesting you know know, position because they're hungry. And it's like, yeah, nobody thinks you guys can win. Ha! You know, that's how it goes. And nobody cares because now, you know, the big three in Brooklyn and, you know, just like they did with us, they're handing them the title. But I think, you know, things like defense and those late game packages.

You know, they're very extremely dangerous. Of course, if it's a single possession game, God bless you. But, you know, if you can figure out a way to kind of, you know, mitigate them as a team as much as possible, not let Joe Harris get off, that's pretty much what happens. They're a very unselfish basketball team, and a lot of teams miss out on rotation. So if Milwaukee sees a chink in the armor and they can expose that in the series, I think it's going to be a great series regardless

because they've got confidence, right? They beat them two times right in back-to-back days or two times in three days. So it's going to be a great series. I'm looking forward to seeing how they're going to play it. Yeah, there's definitely some nobody believes in us factor with Milwaukee. For sure.

Everyone's penciled it in. People are expecting, well, they were expecting Brooklyn Lakers. Now who knows with the Davis thing. But I think people have penciled Brooklyn in. Plus Brooklyn has looked so unstoppable against my crappy Celtics team that it's going to be going up seven levels from a team with no rear protector.

That really doesn't have any depth to a Milwaukee team that I think is really good. I think they have a chance to win, but you know, pretty good with Brooklyn. You mentioned the role guys, like people like Harris, that was what you guys didn't have the first year you had.

You didn't have the first year. They spent so much money on the three to make that happen that it almost took an extra year. There's a salary cap. You had to fit everybody in. We didn't even have a team. What's funny, a lot of people, if you really think back, when we

officially signed, the only people on the team other than us was Carlos Arroyo and Mario Chalmers. There was nobody else under contract. Right. Nobody. I think maybe one more person, but that was like a draft pick or something like that. There was nobody else under contract.

And the whole buyout thing wasn't in place the same way it is now. Now you have every year you're able to cherry pick two guys in february you guys didn't really have that because that i didn't pick you to win the title that first year because i just didn't think the team was the lakers who got crushed i picked a lakers miami final and i had the lakers that was when the lakers fell that would have been a good one. Yeah, that would have been good. Yeah, yeah. That would have been a good one. But I just felt like the history of the playoffs,

it's the role guys. You have to have the anchors, right? You have to have the stars. Oh, yeah. But you saw it in... Oh, yeah. A lot of people don't understand that. 12 and 13.

You know, Mike Miller and Ray Allen and Haslam and all these dudes. That was what pushed it over the top. There's always going to be... You know, it's great to have the talent because you need the talent, but it's the whole team effort. And throughout the playoffs, every guy on that team is going to have a moment to where they pull through to help you be successful. A lot of people forgot.

I went out. I was hurt in the first year. I hurt my groin. I was out for three weeks. Udonis Aslan came right in and we won the game. And then I think it was, what, game four in Indiana. Like, Dwayne and Bron, they just playing video games out there, you know. And then, like, another time, Mike Miller gets hot, you know, another time when we're game seven against the Spurs in the back to back year.

Shane Battier went six for seven from the three point line. Right. He couldn't hit the side of a bus for the whole playoffs. I mean, he was struggling. I've never seen somebody struggle so much in the playoffs. And I mean, he comes through in that moment. It's just one of those things you need a whole collective team effort. And you've all got to be in syncing together. So in Brooklyn's instance, it's going to have to be very fast for them

if they figure it out. Because it's like, man, they've only played 10 games together. I was mad all year. I was mad all year. I'm mad all year. I want to see the Big Three play. I'm watching the Brooklyn Nets and they're not playing. I'm going to change the channel. I do really like their role players because they all give a shit.

I actually have less question about their role guys because I do think they'll be able to get some stuff. Protecting the rim, I think, is going to be a problem for them. But if they play, if they play hard enough, they can compensate. My big question is the three dudes with three minutes left, what happens? You have all three guys are used to being like, okay, I got this. Right. And what happens if both Harden and Durant are like, I got this. No, no, I got this. I don't know. That's just how basketball works. And my guess is that Harden's going to be way more of a distributor, creator, not look to be those conversations because I'm sure they want to win, right? And we all

say the right things. The challenge is when you just went down one and you don't have any timeouts and it's happening right now. All those things that you went over as a team, they go out the window unless you've done it over and over

and over and messed up a bunch of times. You know what I mean? So if they mess up or if they succeed, it's going to happen live. So that's something you have to take into effect, especially, like I say, after planning them in those empty arenas. Now you have to be sowing a strength where it's like, okay, hey, this is what we're running and you can read each other's mouths. Cause you can't hear. So what happens then? Or when they come with, you know, um, boot and hose has got a mean pen, you know? So when they come with a great ATO,

these defensive principles that you haven't had the practice time nor the game time to work on, you know, will it be a challenge or not? You know, we'll see. I mean, it's a, like I say, it's, it's gonna, we're living out the experiment real time. It's exciting. Every team has that moment, right? And yeah, absolutely. The Lakers last year, even though that team was thrown together to some degree, they, they had so much veteran shit going on that it was a little unconventional,

right? Where you have Rondo out there who, when he's going, can fit in with everybody. You have LeBron, who's one of the two best players of all time. And he has the ability when he wants to, to bring everybody into his fold now. And all the shooters know, all right, I just have to go to this spot. I'm going to be in the corner on offense. On defense, I'm going to put my ass off. That's all I have to worry about. They kind of knew who they were. And I think the identity piece is the corner on offense. On defense, I'm going to play my ass off. That's all I have to worry about. They kind of knew who they were.

And I think the identity piece is the big piece for Brooklyn. Do they know who they are? Who's their best five? Right. And who has the steering wheel are my questions. And I don't have answers yet, but I'm excited to watch it play out. I mean, I think, yeah, we're going to get those answers, man. And I mean, the best part about it for them,

if you're going to figure out with the team, that's the best team to figure things out on the fly with. What do you see from LeBron? We're now 18 years in compared to the LeBron you played with 10 years ago. So let's go year one LeBron. When he couldn't post up. Year one LeBron in Miami who couldn't post up really at all. I mean, he could a little bit, but he didn't have confidence in it.

Couldn't, didn't have the physicality and the power that he has now. What else do you see? Yeah, he was, I want to say, yeah, he was more a pick and roll in ISOs. After that, he began to transcend. And very quickly from there to, I want to say, you know, and this is my humble opinion, he was at the peak of his powers. In our back-to-back year, we had that winning streak. I think he went on a tear shooting 60% for like 20 games, something crazy. And athletically, he was at his peak too. I agree.

I think that was when he was at his peak. Yeah. Yeah. Just take it and leave. Right. And he was a very underrated three-point shooter as well. And that was kind of the knock on him with the shooting and stuff like that. But he was always quietly just getting better um you know definitely uh became a master

in the post um you know creating those mismatches for the team and and that allowed us to kind of really rely on that to kind of shift our offense to you know so for those late game packages or to put pressure on guys like luau dang and and pa George, you know, that was always our thing. We want to make everybody everywhere a guard, you know, that way maybe those three pointers in the end of the game are going to be come up a little short, you know, come up a little bit more, come up a little shorter. But, you know,

I think he just continued to evolve and get better and get better. And, you know, the athleticism was continued to evolve and get better and get better. And, and you know, the athleticism was there. The defense was there. It was just always continually, continually trying to get better within the team and figuring out how to keep the continuity of the team intact. You know,

who's your favorite player to watch now? Like when you're flicking on the TV, who's your, who's number one for you, man, Steph Curry, man. Good grief. Good grief. I've never seen anything like – my favorite two, you know,

and I love big men too, but I'm too technical. You know what I mean? I dissect things too much. Steph Curry and John Moran. Oh, man. John Moran. Those two. Yeah, they – oh, man.

He goes. I love to just watch his athleticism and watch him just have that spirited attack every single time. It's amazing to watch. And Steph, I mean, the things he can do. Because I'm always thinking like, okay, how would I guard that? And just the frustration that you have to deal with because he's going to hit the craziest shot you've ever seen. And you still got to try to win a game and try to get, go move on to the next play and all that stuff.

But yeah, Steph Curry, man, he's a, he's my favorite to watch. It's a, he's actually mine too. This is a huge off season for them because I don't know how many vintage

years he has left. Could be, you know, he's such a good shooter. It seems like a shooting's actually getting better. So maybe there's three more years at that level, maybe two, I don't know how many vintage years he has left. He's such a good shooter. It seems like his shooting is actually getting better. So maybe there's three more years at that level. Maybe two. I don't know.

I had them as a dark horse. Yeah, I had them as a dark horse to compete for a championship this year before Clay got hurt. I was like, yo, these guys and they had a pick, man. But I think they'll be right back in the same kind of pocket. They'll just have another draft. They're going to get six or seven from Minnesota

unless Minnesota moves up in the top three. They're going to get Clay back. They'll have some free agency money. And then I guess the Wiseman thing would be the X factor because I'm a big fan of him. He's a really good athlete. He's unusual for where the league is now where you have these 7'1 guys with good hands.

But he might be three years away. I don't think he was a finished, kind of polished product like you were coming out of college. He didn't play. I had a whole season of getting my head bashed in in college. I played 31 college games in the ACC. He didn't get to play as much. So he still has a lot to learn. But the thing I say for that guy,

all he has to do is screen and just make plays and be open. When you're open, you're going to be open. Learn how to screen. Learn how to play those games and get these guys open. As crazy as it sounds, make Steph Curry better. Make Clay Thompson better. And in return, they will make you better.

Trust me. You know what I mean? He's going to be open all year next year. When the Steph show started, you guys were kicking everybody's ass. And it was happening over in Golden State. He's playing with David Lee and clay and stuff's happening. He's shooting threes.

Not like he is now, but he he's doing something that we hadn't totally seen. Then the next year in 14 takes it up a notch. Were you even aware of where the league was going when you were playing at that point? Like, cause Dame's starting that in Portland too. You can see the future yeah i could see it i could see it for myself and that made me so excited to play more basketball because i'm like wow and you know i

didn't think it would be like it is today it's even crazier today but i'm just like man i just shot five threes and that was easy you know i could have easily shot three more you know but because i'm more of a player that's trying to be aggressive i'm aware of getting better shots and on movement and all that stuff and so you know with with steph and those guys they beat us in miami i remember that that was like here they beat us yeah i remember that. It was the same year. They beat us. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Oh, we were so mad. And my buddy Jared Jack was on that team.

We were roommates in college. And, you know, they had some success. So you could see it matriculating. And then even after that, after that year, Spoh, just in the mind that he has, he would always, we we would always we would have discussions about you know and i didn't you know we didn't think they were going to ascend to a championship but he just was saying like man yo it's dynamic have you watched yeah you know how they switch everything five to one through five and moving the ball and positionless that that that was the concepts that you know we were talking. We were just in the mode of, you know,

Hassan Whiteside was playing very well. So, you know, we kind of had that big twin tower, one-two punch down low, and that allowed me to shoot threes, you know? Yeah. But it was moving over to one through five as opposed to one through four where it was. Well, now we actually have a couple centers. Every time I think I've figured out where the league is going,

and now all of a sudden you see like Jokic, Valanciunas, Gobert. Like there's Embiid, although we don't know when Embiid's coming back, but there's at least a couple guys. When you were coming up in the 2000s, it was basically like Dwight Howard, Yao Ming goes down, and then it was like Dwight Howard. He was the only consistently all-star center we had. Everybody else was like Amari was considered a center, but he wasn't. Yeah, I mean, Amari, they started messing up the game.

Once people saw that Phoenix team and had to guard him and then you guard Amari, the center position slowly was changing. And, yeah, you didn't get that big traditional big. I mean, it's funny. Even you saying Jokic, like, think about it. I think I can't remember. Yeah, even the European player had changed because guys like Memo Okor, Dirk. Yep.

They were picking pop guys as opposed to Okura, Dirk, they were picking pop guys as opposed to like an Arvita Sabonis, just a big body like Jokic is. I mean, he's off the pick and roll, which is crazy, but the passing ability and all that stuff, but it's been

interesting to watch the game just kind of my prediction is that everybody will be over seven feet in the future. Everybody will be over seven feet. You'll still have, you know, the Steph Currys, the John Morantz and stuff like this, but we're getting closer to everybody just being taller and taller and taller and taller, you know, and playing every position on the court. Because, you know, think about it. Like, kids are seeing KD. KD saw T-Mac. And I'm not saying, I don't know who else he admired, but he got to see T-Mac. And so now kids now are seeing KD and Giannis and Ben Simmons

and LeBron James. So you can't tell someone, and this is after Magic Johnson, right? So you can't tell a 6'9", 6'10", guy or girl, you know, if she gets that tall, that they can't be a point'9", 6'10", guy or girl, you know, if she gets that tall, that they can't be a point guard. You know what I mean? It's like, no, no, no, I'm a point guard. I'm pushing it.

This is what I do. And I do think the game will eventually just get crazier and crazier. But then you'll have – I remember seeing Jokic and Embiid, two of the biggest human beings I've – Right. I went to go see both of them play. Yeah, I've seen both of them play. And it's like, yeah, I mean,

you should be the best player in the league, bro. You know, that's it. Who can stop you? And you can shoot the jumper. And then seeing Jokic, you just get a triple-double walking out of bed. You know, it's crazy. So you're doing a little more TV?

What's going on with you media-wise? You've kept a low profile. I might do a little more tv what what's what's going on with you media media wise you've kept a low profile i might do a little yeah yeah i've been you know we've been working in the background and all that stuff but yeah i'm uh i'll probably uh i'll probably do some sort of uh something in the near future hopefully yeah you've resisted for a couple years here i have you know i have i had you know i had to take care of those babies, man, and write this book. You know, it's been a wonderful, wonderful process just falling into being a father. You know, I'm the guy. I went to a—

You have like 19 kids. How many kids are you up to now? Yeah, I have five kids. Oh, my God. Five kids. You know, so it was interesting. You know, now that everything's kind of almost getting back to normal, we went to like this outside art thing.

And, you know, the people there was like, oh, yeah, I recognize you. You were in the carpool. You're in the carpool. I remember you used to walk your son in. Yeah. Wait, so how old's the oldest one? You know, 12. Oh, so you're in the sports parent zone now.

Almost, almost. If it weren't for COVID, we would definitely, we would be deeper in it. I mean, just take my boy, for instance, my oldest boy, he's nine. Before COVID started, we were starting the habit of, I would never push him or anything like that, but he was playing with his friend. Him and his friend would do individual lessons once a week. So I just

take him to the recreation center and be the dad sitting in the stands. And like, we were going once a week and he was getting to it, but you know, I'm not worried. We'll be there. Once it starts. It doesn't stop. It's tough for, it's tough for the former famous basketball players to go see their kids play.

You kind of stand out in a gym. We were, my daughter was playing once. And LeBron was LeBron's kid was the game before it. And LeBron came in the gym and it was like, just everything stopped. You know, he's six foot eight and a half. You feel it when you're in like a tiny. Yeah. What's going on over there? Oh, wait a second.

You'd be in the other, you'd be in two gyms over like, oh my goodness. Something's different. We got to go. But yeah, I mean, we'll see. And, and, you know, I'm always open to my experience. You know, I'm coaching them now. Right. So I wouldn't be their coach. I want them to have a relationship with the coach, their own relationship with the coach. But, you know, I'm always there to support. That's always going to be, you know, it's a big thing in my family. So we're going to be at the games, you know, it's just trying, you know, maneuvering in that and figuring that out. That'll be, that'll be the challenge. Well, it'll be Hoops IQ,

just watching games with you. That'll, that'll probably help. Although they'll probably learn as much from the video games, probably. That's what I believe. So now, yeah, they're, they're younger. Yeah. They're younger. My, he doesn't, they don't like basketball video games. I tried, I tried. It'll happen. It's still there. No, it'll happen. Yeah, it'll happen. So like, I just one of the things I do that I remember doing, like my dad always had the game on. Yeah. So I remember those

things and seeing my dad watching the game and being like, okay, I'll just do I'll just play basketball. You know, and so like, you know, even this past weekend, I'll you know, every weekend, especially now that the playoffs are on, I turn the TV on. I go out back and I grill, you know, and the kids always come through. Daddy, what are you doing?

Watch the game. Man, look, that's John Morant. That's Uncle Bron, you know and and and you know get them understanding who the player is like i was showing my son devin booker hey this is book man check him out he's a good one look at him look at him you know of course they're in their games right what who playing but it's in there and so i, I just keep it on as much as possible. Yeah. I'm not worried at all.

Wait, more importantly, have they seen your, uh, award-winning appearance in Jesse yet? Is that, is that okay? It funny thing is it used to freak him out when they were babies.

Cause they thought I was gone. So it was one time they'd look at the screen, look at me. But yeah, we, you know, we got, we have Disney plus and yeah, they me like, but yeah, we, you know, we got, we have Disney plus and yeah,

they're very aware. They, uh, my daughter, matter of fact, she watched it like, uh, last week.

I didn't know Jesse was so big by the way, when I did it, I was, uh, I was shocked how, how big it was. My kids are older now. My kids are 15 and 13,

but for, you know, this was their biggest show seven, eight years ago they knew you for that show not the miami heat the titles anything they just knew you as the guy who was bro i was in italy i was in italy on vacation and we're like in um portofino or something like that and you know very small quaint place i go to like the local village and we're just kind of walking around and just checking the place out. A bunch of kids just start coming up to me

and speaking Italian to me. And I'm like, what? I said, oh my God, this show is everywhere. I actually think it was the most popular kid show for like three years. I think it was the number one show. It really was. I feel like everybody watched it that I knew. It was amazing. It was amazing. I experienced how big that was.

Even so, like, you know, we go to All-Star Weekend and everybody's kids would ask me where my lucky socks were. Like all the kids asked, where's your lucky socks? Hey, you're old Jesse. You have lucky socks for real. Like everywhere I went, I had so many interaction with kids. I said, man, this Disney stuff is something. Well, you have that. You have Jesse.

You have Jesse and then you have an NBA 2K. This is my son telling me this. But apparently your legend, whatever the Galaxy Opal card is like a really good card because you're three point range and you can rim run and you're like a valuable,

your card is a valuable guy. Well, I mean, that means, you know, NBA 2K, those guys are smart. Thank you. I've been playing 2K since 2K. You know what I mean? They know what they're doing.

It's better. You have the Hall of Fame and you have an unbelievable Galaxy Opal card. I've been playing 2K since 2K. You know what I mean? They know what they're doing. It's better. You have the Hall of Fame, and you have an unbelievable Galaxy Opal card. You've done it. And a book. Man, life is good. All right. You can check out Chris's book,

Letters to a Young Athlete. It is available wherever you get your books. And I guess we'll see you on whatever your mystery TV project is. I'm sure you'll be on one of the networks. I'm guessing. We'll see, man. I have some things in the works, you know. It was up to Shakespeare.

That paperwork just takes time, you know. That's all. All right. Good luck. Let me know if you ever want to come back and talk hoops. Of course, man. Thanks a lot, man. All right.

Good to see you. All right. That's it for the pod. Don't forget, rewatchables. Thanks a lot, man. All right. Good to see you. All right. That's it for the pod. Don't forget Rewatchables. We did Memento. You can find that on the Rewatchables feed. And I have another podcast coming Thursday night, it looks like. I'll see you then. I don't have.