The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Drunk Wolves-Grizz Series, Harden’s Fall, the Sleeper Mavs, and Brooklyn’s Future With Bob Voulgaris and Van Lathan

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Haralabos Voulgaris to discuss the Suns’ Game 5 win over the Pelicans, why Bill believes the series will end in a Game 7, Mavericks-Jazz, the Raptors winning their second game in a row after going down 3-0 to the 76ers, the Grizzlies’ 111-109 win over the Timberwolves to go up 3-2 in the series, and more (1:50). Then Bill talks with Van Lathan about his new book, 'Fat, Crazy, and Tired: Tales From the Trenches of Transformation,' what is next for the Nets after being swept in the first round of the playoffs, Elon Musk purchasing Twitter, and more (1:10:51). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Haralabos Voulgaris and Van Lathan  Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Van Lathan's new book is called Fat, Crazy, and Tired. It came out this week. It is available wherever you get your books. He's one of our favorites. It's coming up later in this podcast. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book

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Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. New Rewatchables podcast went up on Monday night. Mallory Rubin and I did A League of Their Own, one of the best sports movies the last 35 years. Go check that one out. I'm going to be on the Prestige TV podcast at least once this week as well.

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Probably Nuggets Warriors. I have some Nuggets Warriors thoughts. Speaking of thoughts, our old friend Bob Valgaris is coming on right after the late Tuesday night games. We had a doozy, Minnesota-Memphis,

but just in general, we're talking hoops, round one, things that he saw, one of our favorite guests. So he's coming on and then Van Lathan, we're talking hoops, round one, things that he saw, one of our favorite guests. So he's coming on and then Van Lathan, who has a new book that's coming out. It's called Fat, Crazy, and Tired. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving and the Brooklyn Nets.

We're going to talk about Twitter and Elon Musk. Stay tuned for that. This is a good one. It's all next. Kind of feel like we have to bring in Pearl Jam. Pearl Jam! it's all next kind of feel like we have to bring in pro jam pro jam all right we're taping this 945 Pacific Time. Just watched the third game of the night, Pelicans Suns. Our friend Bob Valgaris is here.

He said, I asked him if he wanted to do day or night. He's like, I'm a nighttime guy. I kind of peak at night after these games. I was texting you. I had the Pelicans plus six and a half. So, of course, they missed, I think, probably 10 straight eight-foot shots. And then all of a sudden, the Suns were covering. Mikael Bridges, the hero tonight.

47 minutes. Wow. 31 points, 12 for 17, 4 for 4 from 3. And shut down, basically, whoever he got switched on to just didn't score in the game. It was one of the best two-way performances. You have a little history with Bridges.

Once upon a time when you were working with the Mavs, you thought you had a chance to get him when his stock was low. I don't know that his stock was low. It was the start of the season, Luka's rookie year. And I don't know if people remember, Phoenix didn't have any point guards back then. It was before they changed their general manager. And I think there's... Anytime you have a general manager whose like job is kind of teetering on the brink those are

probably the guys you want to go after because they're willing to do something you know make some big moves to kind of keep their job uh and yeah and i i was rebuked because I was told that there was a high probability in someone's opinion that Dennis Smith Jr. might turn into Chauncey Billups. Right. That wasn't going to happen on his watch. Right. And I remember thinking to myself, I don't know what sport this guy is watching, where he thinks Dennis Smith Jr. has anything in his game that resembles Chauncey Billups. But hey, everyone takes a whiff

every now and then and that was definitely a whiff. It goes to show you how tenuous this team building thing is because you have these moments when the assets are a little down for whatever reason or sometimes way too high and every once in a while you can just grab somebody like I've the Celtics will deny this, but I feel like Marcus smart probably could have been had there for about six months. If you had

like a pretty juicy offer, like they were going to trade him for nothing, but now he's turned into an elite point guard and thank God it could have happened. He could have gone to that could have been a, he's not, I'm not going to watch him turn into trots. He billups on my watch trading smart and watching him do what he's been doing the last four months. I would be having a heart attack. Yeah. You'd be upset.

Although I do think that, um, you know, he won defensive player of the year. I know I talked about this a little bit and I'm not sure how much interest you have in talking about it, but I don't know. Like,

is he their best defensive player? I thought he was their most important one this year, but in the Net series, Tatum was their most important defensive player because what he did to Durant, I didn't know was possible. I think a big part of it is he's the guy who makes a lot of the hustle

plays. He's obviously a very good defender. Very good defender. But I don't know. If I had a guy that I need to shut down, there's like, I was just looking at all the numbers on, on who he's guarded counterpart wise, you know, Tatum and Brown had usually done one of those two has usually done a better job against the other player than he has. So he's like never, never the number one option defensively on his team. And so to give it, but that being said, there's lots of other stuff that can show up,

like, you know, being the quarterback of the defense and all this other stuff that people talk about. I'm sure it's all very valid. He's, he's a very good defensive player. I just don't know that his shot contest defense is as impactful as Tatum's

is. Yeah. He has a knack for momentum, turning charges, like grabbing the ball and whipping it off somebody's leg and flipping possession and all these plays that he has very dramatic defensive plays. I call those spotlight plays because

the spotlight's on you when it happens, the whistle blows and there's a change of possession so it looks more impactful. But they have an embarrassment of defensive players on that team. Even going all the way down the list of Grant Williams guarded Durant really, really well.

Brown guards really, really well. Then you have Williams. Then you have all these other guys. Horford. Look at the guys they're going to get to throw at Giannis. There's no team that has as many guys that you could throw at Giannis as they do. Horford's going to guard Giannis. Both these other fours and fford's going to guard Giannis. Brad's going to guard... Both these other

fours and fives are going to guard him. Tatum will probably guard him a little bit. Brown will probably take a turn on him. I think the part that people missed with the Celts... We talked about it some on Sunday.

It's just... All these years when they were looking for a point guard and then finally, begrudgingly, Smart goes in there and it just completely unlocked them defensively.

The moment he embraced it and they realized that they could get away with playing him basically 35-36 minutes a game there, move Brown to the two, which I don't know if he was doing backflips about basically being the shooting guard, but that's what he is in this team. Those three guys, their ability to just

switch on everything. I don't think anybody has close to that kind of asset. There's nobody to hunt. No, they don't have anyone to hunt at any time. And on top of that, they play a really, really unique style. They switch everything. And then they basically almost zone up behind the ball. So it's like the guy at the point of attack is guarding.

I thought that... I look at offensively, I look at smart. I wasn't ever really a huge fan of him being like your lead ball handler, but he's done a very good job. He's improved. He's breaking down the defense. He's getting in the paint there. They're not struggling at all.

And so, yeah, they're, that's definitely a team to, to kind of keep your eye on, obviously at this point, and they just upset the preseason favorites, which is probably the most absurd thing I'd ever seen, that team being the preseason favorite to win the NBA championship. They were still, they had the best odds in March. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about that later.

Let's talk the ones tonight. So just quickly on the Suns. They had to, even though that game, deceiving, I think, 15-point final, they had to put in a lot of work on their dudes. Paul played 39 minutes and was getting hounded to the point that they were having

other people bring the ball up sometimes. Bridges with the 47 minutes. I do think this could go seven this series. I think Phoenix will end up winning. I've been impressed by New Orleans. McCollum had another bad one today, and he's been bad the last two games. And it just seems like New Orleans is destined to be

kind of the frisky underdog that's going to take you as far as, you know, there'll be like emotional handshakes and hugs at the end of the series. You never felt like they had a chance to win this series, did you? No. I mean, look, they're the Phoenix had the best record in the NBA by a huge margin.

Even with the Booker injury, though. Yeah, I mean, they just came into it. First of all, the first game was a complete punt for them. They weren't going to win game one. They had to win two games on the road to come in and play this game. Did they have to play two games on the road? Were they the 10 seed? Or were they the 9 seed?

Yeah, they played two in three days. But did they play on the road versus San Antonio? I can't remember if they did. No, they had... Yeah, they did. Okay three days. But did they play on the road versus San Antonio? I can't remember if they did. No, they had... Yeah, they did. Okay, well, anyways, yeah. So that was kind of a scheduling loss. I don't know.

They could win game six. Look, these games are so tenuous. You look at the home court seems to be back again in terms of the number of free throws that the home team is getting. That seems to be back again. It kind of went of free throws that the home team is getting. That seems to be back again. It kind of went away for a minute. Playoffs, it's back.

There's a lot of foul calls, especially from teams that are trailing in series. You'd be getting the benefit of the whistle. There's been some 40 free throw games. Yeah, it could go seven. I don't see them winning. I just don't see them having what it takes to beat. I mean, Ingram's got to go off. McCollum's got to go off.

And then they really don't have anybody else who can score on that team aside from Valanciunas on putbacks. That's where they've been getting their... They've been doing really well on the offensive glass. It's been huge for them. I think they're their number one

rebounding team in the playoffs in terms of offensively. And that's been big. Well, you know, two things that are good signs for them if you're going to say, can this series go seven? They were five for 25 from three today, and we're still

in this game near the end. The free throws, two games in a row, they just shot way more free throws than Phoenix. 35 to 20. And then they out-rebounded them again. So I like when teams are really plus in free throw attempts

and rebounds. It's usually a decent sign you're going to be hanging around. And then if they get McCollum going, who knows? And I don't know if Bridges is going to be going 12 for 17 in 47 minutes again. So I think they could win game six. If I had to bet, and I lost tonight, but if I had to bet, depending on that line,

if the Pelicans were like plus three, something like that, I would be enticed. I mean, they were plus six tonight, weren't theyicans are like plus three, something like that, I would be enticed. I mean, they were plus six tonight, weren't they? Yeah, plus six and a half. So yeah, maybe plus two, two and a half, plus three, maybe. I'm not sure. It just really depends on how much they're valuing home court this year.

How do you value bridges? Every month, I make my best players in the league right now list because I'm always interested to see how it changes month to month. And the reason I did it today was I was interested to see where, and I was really trying not to be a homer, but I wanted to see how high I could have Tatum on the list. How high do you think I had him? Are you asking me how high I think you had Tatum? Yeah. How high do you think I had Tatum on my list? Like three? Yeah, I had Tatum on my list? Like three? Yeah, I had him four.

Yeah. That's probably not far off, by the way. I had Giannis, Jokic, and B, Tatum. I think Tatum has to be higher than Durant coming off that series. I'm sorry. I thought he outplayed him. It'd be weird to have Durant over him. I know Durant's got the thing, but 15 years in the league,

it's going to be 16 years next year. Sure. Tatum's arrows pointing up. I thought yesterday, if they didn't foul him out, little Scott Foster-itis, I thought yesterday he was poised to really go on a major fourth quarter run

and it just wouldn't happen. But my point with the list though is I was surprised how high I had Bridges. Because I'm in the mode now. I'm just thinking like winning players, winning players, winning players. How, you know, I value Mikael Bridges more than, I don't know, Darius Garland. You know, if I'm just thinking about how can I win, I'm taking him. So I had him basically in the group with Paul George and Ingram and Drew Holiday and people like that.

I think he's at least a forward version of Drew Holiday from a value standpoint, right? Yeah. I mean, he's probably... Yeah, he's very good. I mean, his thing is he's turned into a very efficient offensive player. He doesn't take a lot of shots, but he cuts very, very well off the ball. He understands the game. He flashes when he had a play here where Aiton got the ball after Paul was doubled and he flashed and got a layup. A lot of players just stand in the corner and hope their big man finds them there. Yeah, he's good.

I don't know. In terms of would I rather have him or Drew Holiday? I'm saying he's like the forward version of that. I know you love Drew. You're not taking a lot of people over Drew Holiday. Well, I mean, I just think like the thing you talked about with Tatum, the arrow going up in the air, I think he's probably better than Drew Holiday is right now. That's not to say

he was better than Drew Holiday was at his peak, but Drew Holiday is an older player now. He's got a lot of... He doesn't have everything left in the tank. So yeah, it's pretty close. I mean, he's definitely a better... He's better at getting a shot off than Holiday is in terms of shooting over.

That's the thing that's really underrated in the playoffs is, okay, can you hit threes? Great. Everyone can hit threes when they're not being guarded, but how can you hit contested threes? How can you shoot over someone? That's why someone like Tatum is very valuable because Tatum, the defense is almost independent

when he's shooting. There's really no impact because he gets up so high in his release point. Bridges is similar to that too. He's got a very quick release point. You know, we were mentioning Tatum and Bridges in Philly and back-to-back years. Well, they traded down for Tatum and Bridges and Philly and back-to-back years. Well, they traded down for Tatum.

Or they traded up to take faults when they just could have stayed at three and maybe Tatum falls there. Or trade up and just take Tatum at one. And then they did draft Bridges the next year and they traded back. I'm definitely someone who's lower on point guards than the average person is.

Just because I feel like a new point guard, a new grape, like you mentioned Garland, he's not really a point guard, but he kind of is, I guess he's a point guard, like plays a two,

but there's just so many of these young, first of all, just like from a demographic standpoint, there's more players, six deep humans, six, six and under. So having a point guard,

there's new, like the Jones brothers, they, for a while, they were popping out a new Jones brother, like every, every two or three years. So the idea that you would be like, oh,

Markel Falks versus this wing guy. Yeah, I don't know. I just think that in general, whenever in doubt, if you have a choice between Dennis Smith Jr. and Mikel Bridges, you should probably go with Mikel Bridges, regardless of if it's the first week of the season, he hasn't played yet in the NBA. That was my argument for Mobley

over Cade last year. I just think it's much harder to find Mobley. And it was really no shade on Cade. It's just, there's so many good point guards, and there's so few Mobleys. Yeah, I think Cunningham benefited from Luka because everyone started making the Luka comps. Because Luka's a

point guard, but he's a point guard in a power forward's body. So he's the exception he was a point guard in a power forwards body. So he's, he's like the exception to that because he's a, you know, I look at like what you want are dominant ball handling wings. And I'm sorry, what Luka is,

but like undersized point guards, even like someone like Trey young, who's so good offensively is still, you know, it becomes an issue in the playoffs. You can hunt those guys. You can, you can wear them out. You can make their defensive effort required

translate to how good they are on offense. The Tatum situation with Fultz, it's hard to draft these guys, obviously, but that was a pretty egregious win. It's pretty bad. You were working for the Mavs when Luka falls to three. Still one of the

all-time miracles in draft history that wasn't even two teams passing, but it was three. You were able to trade up to get him at three. And then you get Brunson at 33. Now, this was a really unusually deep draft where you just look in the second round. Javon Carter's 32, Brunson's 33, Devontae Graham's 34, Mitchell Robinson, 36, Trent's 37,

Vanderbilt is 41, Bruce Brown's 42, and DeAnthony Melton was 46. So, I don't know. And Shake Melton was all the way down there at 54. I don't know what happened in that second round, but... Super deep. I remember you took Brunson.

The guys who like Brunson, I didn't have anything to do with that. I didn't have any opinion on that. I wasn't involved in that. The guys who like Brunson, I didn't have anything to do with that. I didn't have any opinion on that. I wasn't involved in that. The guys who like Brunson did a great job there. I thought he fell too far. And I try not to overvalue college basketball, but I love point guards who just run the show. And he was so rare in the run the show standpoint

that he just kind of had it. Some people just know how to run a team. I didn't see this score guy that he's turned into, where he's almost like a mismatch. Yeah, he was always a very... I mean, his progression was not very good on defense, but works hard. Offense could get his shot off in the mid-range,

but couldn't really get to the rim. But not a good passer, kind of played with blinders on. Now his passing has improved. His footwork is obviously probably top 1% in the league in terms of footwork. And he's finishing at the rim from a point guard level. He's finishing as... For a guy who doesn't ever dunk the ball, he's not like Morant who goes up and

dunks the ball. He's finishing at the rim at a ridiculous level and it's just because he's so crafty. He's improved a ton. He's obviously played very, very well, especially if you compare him to last year. People forget last year in the playoffs, he was like a minus 55 in a seven-game series. Right.

The Clippers went to... They always made sure they guarded him with size, with length, and that is something that I think he's improved at for sure because he's become more physical. And Utah doesn't have those guys. Utah does not have those guys.

And the guys that are putting on him are the bottom decision. Literally, you could say, okay, who's the worst guy we can have to guard him? Okay, let's do that. Let's put Royce O'Neal, who has no foot speed, who can't stay with this guy, and who doesn't have the wingspan

to really hamper him physically. It's just not a good matchup. And then they'll have odd possessions where in the start of the series, where Clarkson was on him and then Mitchell. The best player for Dallas is whoever Donovan Mitchell is guarding in the series. I think he's giving up 1.6 points per possession

or something absurd like that on the guys he's guarding. It's not getting talked about enough how bad he's been on defense. We've talked about it a couple times on the pod. It's really starting to change my opinion of him and the hierarchy. Because I always had him in some sort of cluster with Tatum and Booker and Jamal Murray

and guys like that. And I just don't think he's there anymore. I think he's almost edgy more toward the CJ McCollum, Darius Garland kind of really good scoring guard and that's about it guy. Yeah, he doesn't pass the ball particularly well. He doesn't

have the lob despite that lob game winner that they hit the other day. They doesn't really have the lob pass in his arsenal. I don't think he's particularly adept at... A lot of it is they're missing my guy who I talked about last time we did a pod. Ingles. They're missing that guy. Remember? Oh, yeah. He was injured. But they're missing that type of guy who can actually run, pick and roll, and get people going.

Because if you look at Conley, he's kind of washed. I hate to be, but he's washed. Clarkson's a shoot-first guy. And then they have Mitchell. That's it. Who do they have? Even your dog's out on him. My dog is out on him, yeah.

So yeah. It's been an interesting series from an, from an adjustment standpoint. Like I've been saying, when will they, when will they go away from Conley? Um, that's by what point will they figure out that Conley's not the guy? I think it's going to be this game. You think so?

Yeah. What other choice do they have? He's, he's just a losing player in this series. Unfortunately, he seems like he's hurt. I don't, I know he's combination of old and a little hampered by an injury, which is

not where you want to be in this series with all the Dallas guards. Sure. And you could, I mean, if you look at it, they have three tiny, tiny players that they have to play big minutes. So if you're going to start... It's like the Nets. What's that? It's like the Nets. Yeah. In the same situation. They always said to have at least two small guys out there.

For sure. And so if you're going to have to start Mitchell and then start Conley, where are you hiding Conley? Where are you hiding Mitchell? You're going to put one on Bullock and one on Dorian Finney-Smith, then what? Then who's guarding Luka? Okay, then you're going to put Bogdanovich is going to be your offensive guy, but also guard Luka. And then who do you put on Brunson now? Who does that leave on Brunson? It's just such a tough spot with the way they... So in my opinion, they should just start Mitchell. I would probably go away from O'Neal if I had to,

and I would at least start House over O'Neal. And if I couldn't do that, then I would start House over Conley. But that's me. House has actually been their best defensive player by a pretty decent margin in the series. If I was Mitchell, I'd be embarrassed by this, that you're just getting attacked

relentlessly in a playoff series and you're supposed to be a franchise guy and the Knicks fans are like, oh, if we can only get Donovan Mitchell, it's like, good luck. You went through this 20 years ago with the Marbury trade. What we're seeing, you could be reliving the Marbury trade with that.

I think it's tough. I think it's very tough. I think on a different team with different wing players, I think it would be less noticeable. But on this particular team, it's really noticeable. We'll take a break.

I want to talk about that series. And then we got to talk about Minnesota Memphis, the funniest series of round one. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Superbowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Superbowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this

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which is two things are always unusual in a game five. A team getting trucked when it's 2-2 and a team that was up 3-0 that blows the game four and then comes back home and just completely rolls over like Philly did. You don't see that one often either. And we'll talk about that series in a second. But the Utah's lack of spirit in that game.

I think they missed a lot of open shots. So if you look at their shot lock, not to belabor it, but I think they left like 29 points in EV in that game. So you're buying Utah stock? No, I'm not. Because I think a lot of them were... It wouldn't matter because they just have no answer. They couldn't stop anything.

Yeah, they have no answer. And it's not like... So they lost a lot offensively, but it's not like Dallas shot lights out that game either. Dallas also shot below their expected value from three. So I think it'll be interesting to see what happens. I do know that in game four when Luka was back, them being a six-point favorite to me was absurd.

The game, even in Dallas, the spread was absurd. I have no idea what they're going to have the spread for this game. I guess I could look and see. It's plus. It's Dallas minus three. Dallas is minus three in Utah? Are you sure? I am positive. That's what's on FanDuel. That's the biggest... Well, it's

their job to entice people to bet both sides, right? That's such a huge difference. It's like a nine-point swing from the last time they played. That seems... You like... I know you're dialed in with FanDuel. That's an early line. Yeah, it's an early line. It could change by tomorrow.

That's a lot. I mean, Milwaukee's favored by 12. That's pretty intense. Toronto is plus one and a half at home. And that one, I think they're going to potentially win on Thursday. Because...

That would break the internet. If they can come back from a 3-0 deficit, that would break the internet. That would just be like... Injured Embiid. Harden just seems like he's aging in dog years during the series. And Toronto has this eye of the tiger.

We can do this. You can see it. They were very alpha-y in that game. And I think as much as I like Fred VanVleet, it does seem like the fact that he wasn't out there kind of unlocked this longer, more athletic lineup that is just such a problem for Harden. Well, I don't think VanVleet is healthy.

And their on-off numbers with VanVleet, their impact numbers with him so far in the playoffs, I can double-check what it was. But I think they were giving up some absurd number with him on, um, the series. I thought it was like 129. Yeah.

1.9. And him guarding the primary guy is really bad also. So there could be something, I mean, these, you can always take these numbers with a grain of salt, but there could be something there. And then,

yeah, like you said, just having size everywhere is pretty big. I, I, I do think like people need to talk about... And injured and beat. Injured and beat. I don't know what...

The only time I've ever thought a player was point shaving in a playoff game in my life was James Harden game six, was it? Or game five? Game six. Was it game six versus the Spurs? Against San Antonio. You didn't actually think he was point shaving, but he was Game six. Was it game six versus the Spurs? Against San Antonio. You didn't actually think he was point shaving,

but he was so bad. You were like, what's going on? No, I thought he was point shaving. I was like, if ever there was a... I mean, I didn't really think he was point shaving.

I'm just kidding. Yeah. But I was like, this is either he got a concussion the previous day. I thought he got concussed third in the game. Yeah.

Well, I've heard that he did not get concussed and I'm sure he was not point shaving, just to be perfectly clear. I'm sure that was not the case. But the only time I was ever watching a game being like, what is... It was like the scene from Blue Chips,

where the guy's looking up at the score all the time. Tony. Let's go, Tony. But it was pretty... No, man. He's a good kid. He's a good kid. No, man.

Not him. But, I mean, what is going on in this series? MB passively, aggressively talking about him in the pressers. It's not my job to tell him to shoot more. That's the coach's job. Whereas if you go back to the very beginning, the honeymoon when you first got there, I've never gotten this many

passes in my life. This is the most amazing thing I've ever experienced. Because you're playing Orlando. Now it's like, hey, yo, what hasn't the coach told him to shoot more? It's not my life. This is the most amazing thing I've ever experienced. Because you're playing Orlando. Now it's like, hey, yo, what doesn't the coach tell him to shoot more? It's not my job. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what's going on there. It does look like a couple things. It looks like he has lost

a step. That's putting it nicely. He does not have his quick first step. He was always big on his deceleration, not his quick first step. But he's not finishing or attempting to shoot at the rim at all. Well, or when he, when he attempts it, his, I guess his strategy is just to lurch into the guy using the ball as a weapon. Yes.

And in the hopes they got a whistle and that doesn't seem to be working as nearly as well. I don't know. I've always been a huge hardened guy. Like I've, I've always, I love, I love them since he was the sixth man on Oklahoma City and I couldn't understand why they weren't playing him more. I remember we were talking about that back then. He

was basically a rich man's Ginobili coming off the bench. A rich man's Ginobili or a poor man's Ginobili? I'm saying rich man. He was coming in like 20 points a game. Ginobili was really good. It was pretty good. The boards he had, yeah. I'm saying Richmond. He was coming in like 20 points a game. He was really good. I'm with you.

He was pretty good. Yeah, he was pretty good. But Boardsy, he definitely had a little bit. But yeah, no, I don't know what's going on there. I mean, they... First, I mean, first two games

couldn't have looked any more dominant. Game three, they barely won. Yeah, I remember game three, the Embiid, whatever, Nurse. Game three, they shouldn't have won.

If Van Vliet makes like one shot in the last three minutes, I think Toronto wins. He just couldn't hit a shot. And then it's looked pretty dominant since then in terms of just like the part that's really surprising me is how much they're lining up and driving Embiid, which you don't see very often. They're not afraid of them at all.

Barnes is obviously hugely important for them. I think that much is pretty clear. And then guys like Boucher has been good. Achoo has been good. They think that much is pretty clear. And then guys like Boucher's been good. They got seven guys they can play. And then on the flip side, Tybalt's just a section eight. I don't know what happened to him. I think this whole vaccination

thing, now he's basically unplayable. And they were kind of short on wings anyway. Seems unplayable, for sure. I think like... Green played 39 minutes in the last game, which is... I think they were hoping he'd play like 20.

He's got to play more in the next game. There's not the tieball minutes that they're going to be throwing in there. It'll be... The one thing that surprised me the most is where the Raps lived. They lived in transition in the regular season and they lived on the offensive glass. They led the league

or second next to Memphis. Both of those things can be minimized in the playoff series. I think you're seeing a little bit of that with Memphis where they don't have those free points, although they did get them tonight. You can game plan around making sure you're going to catch teams sleeping on the offensive

glass during the season, but you're not going to do it during the playoffs for an entire series. But they've basically haven't really won the transition battle too, too much versus Philadelphia. And they're not getting anything. They're not crashing at all. And yet they're still winning. It's really, well,

they're not winning, but they're still, they won the last two games. Well, if I, before the season, we were playing Mad Libs and I was like, here, here's a list

of 50 players. Here's a list of 50 coaches. Mix and match. The two guys you think would be on the losing end of a 3-0 blown series where they lose in seven. You're like, all right, check, Doc.

Check, Harden. Are they going to potentially meet? Oh, no, they are. They're together. all right, check Doc, check Harden. Are they going to potentially meet? Oh, no, they are. They're together. Oh, God. I think the Philly fans almost seem like, all right, if we get swept, then maybe we lose. I guess we call it like a gentleman's sweep, whatever you are.

Not a gentleman's sweep. A gentleman's sweep is when you win 4-1, not when you lose 4-1. A first lady's sweep? I don't know. But if they get the belated sweep, maybe they don't have to pay Harden. I mean, maybe that's the impetus to be like, okay, cool, here's not $250 million. But what is it?

Is it just he's not in shape? I mean, I don't get what's happened to him. Is it injuries? You were betting on basketball when Iverson just went off a cliff, right? Late 2000s, when he went from his 27 a game for Denver to he was out of the league in 18 months

yeah I don't know you wouldn't think I mean you wouldn't think his game would be this impacted so quickly but it definitely looks like he's fallen off he's has secretly

a lot of minutes and a lot of games the last 8-9 years sure you know he was like he basically only missed like 2-3-4 games a year big minutes

big workload part of it is also though people were talking about like okay he's never really He basically only missed like two, three, four games a year. Big minutes, big workload. Part of it is also though people were talking about like, okay, he's never really played with anyone. A big that wasn't like a rim running where teams had to like, like usually you would just be happy to switch versus him. That was kind of the, and now it's like you don't really want to switch

because it's MB, but this Raptors team doesn't really care if they switch. There's no vertical run from Embiid usually. It's more of like Embiid usually has the ball at the top of the three-point line. There's not a lot of rim dives. And they don't even have a backup guy for that. And so that's not his preferred style. And so that could be that as well.

It could just be... I mean, it's obviously he's fallen. No, he's lost a step and a half. Yes, that is without a doubt true. Then it's a question of, okay, well, how big of an impact... It shouldn't be impacting him as much as it is perhaps,

but it should be impacting him in some way. Well, at least he makes up for the stellar defense. Defense, he had one very good defensive possession last game. I was blown away. Oh, congratulations!

No, it was really good, though. He's not as bad defensively, I think, as Kyrie. Definitely not as bad as Kyrie. Some of these little guards are just so bad at defense. At least him, you can't beat him in the post. You're not just going to throw the ball into him

and just bully him. He can handle himself in the post. He's not just going to throw the ball into him and just bully him. He can handle himself in the post. He's actually a pretty good post defender. His thing is just falling asleep off the ball and getting beat with back cuts and that sort of thing. I feel bad for Embiid. I think he's in the running for worst luck of any

superstar last 12-15 years. You would say Durant's in that conversation too, but some of that was by Durant's own choosing. No, a combination of injury and just teammate luck. You know, they get Embiid,

they get the number one pick. They take Ben Simmons over Jalen Brown and Ingram. He really got Simmons though. He bullied Ben Simmons into this mental health problem. He bullied him

by saying one innocent sentence about how he passed up a dunk without Ben Simmons in a spiral holding the Nets hostage. That was crazy. Basically said, yeah, I'm not going to play in game four. Nets are like, what? But Wolves said he was going to play in game four. How'd that happen?

He was targeting. He was targeting. Yeah. That whole situation. I know this. He was wearing sunglasses in the first half. And then pictures went viral on social media and the sunglasses came off in a second.

Right. It was just like, I don't know why you would wear sunglasses on the NBA. Unless you have an eye problem where you have a concussion situation where you can't see the bright lights. You're going to really sit on the bench and wear sunglasses? What are you, at the beach or something? What is going on here? It's funny. Like you don't want to be a distraction and yet you're a distraction for four straight weeks. Right. Even the game I

went to game one at halftime, they're shooting on the Celtics side of the bench. So it was in front of the Celtics bench. So you had to walk across just to be involved. And Simmons walks all the way across to where everybody's like shooting and, you know, keeping limber at halft involved. And Simmons walks all the way across to where everybody's shooting and keeping limber at halftime. And he kind of stands under the basket and he's rebounding for a little bit. Jimmy Goldstein style? Even worse, because he was rebounding like a ball boy,

but he's wearing his weird Ben Simmons outfit. And then he walks over to the sideline and it's just kind of like, what's this guy doing? Like Robert Williams isn't doing this. You don't see like Robert Williams

under the Celtics basket rebounding for people. Very strange. I don't think there's been a more difficult coaching situation like a challenging

there's probably has been but I mean the Laker won in the winning time that seems pretty challenging but based on what we're watching but the I mean can you imagine a little the winning time. That seems pretty challenging, but, uh, based on what we're watching,

but the, um, I mean, can you imagine a little fictionalized? Yeah, it's just a tad. Yeah. Yeah. Uh,

but can you imagine being Steve Nash? You're coaching this team. Your star player says, we don't really have a coach. Like I might be the coach one time, one day, Katie might be the coach the other day. Like this is a,

this is a, this is a meritocracy. We're running a team that's just like, yeah, we don't really need a coach. We just need someone who gets our vibe. And then you got that. Then you have the COVID stuff. Then Harden basically says,

I don't want to play for you guys anymore, so trade me. So you're dealing with that. Well, they have the Sacramento game that Harden was one of the most egregious mailing games we've had in the last few years. So Nash has to deal with that. Yeah, and then they trade

him for a guy that is just a walking media circus. Like, it's, you know, and that's not... I'm trying to be... I'm sure the mental health thing is not a joke. Like, I don't know. It seems, it seems a little, I mean, there's obviously something there. I mean, the guy's wearing, you know,

sunglasses on the bench. He's like chilling. He doesn't want to play. He can't play. He's I don't, I don't know. The whole thing is weird. Like I don't, I mean, because he had the Instagram post where he had like the nostrils flaring. I don't know if you saw that it was him dunking. And then he had like the bulls and the nose coming out with the smoke. And then they're like, oh, it looks like he's ready to go. But then he hurt

his back. And I don't know. It's weird that it's a back plus mental issue, but not just a back issue. I think all of that is just for him to win his case, to be perfectly honest. That would be my bet as well. I think the interesting piece to me, especially reading between the lines,

because Shams wrote about it today, and Shams is, you know, he's in the clutch universe, so he's, I thought he, Simmons in the piece today, they kind of called him out for the fact that the Nets felt betrayed, and it wasn't a very favorable Simmons piece,

which I thought was interesting. I think from the net standpoint, this is what I've heard. They were led to believe that he would be able to play this season, which was one of the reasons they made the trade. I don't think they wanted to throw away a Durant-Kyrese.

Why would he not be able to play? He hasn't played all year. He doesn't have any injury lingering issues. Right. It was like, why wouldn't he be able to play? I think they were led to believe by the Simmons side that he's going to need

a couple weeks to ramp up, but you'll have him by second week of March, mid-March, and you'll have a month to acclimate him and then he'll be in there. Then he had the herniated disc thing.

Yeah. Now, that's a serious injury, but they were making it seem like he might come back. The whole thing, it just felt like they were sold. I think my personal take, I think they wanted to get him out of Philly and I think they told the Nets whatever they needed

to tell them to try to get the trade to happen. But do I think he's going to be in the Nets next year? No. You don't think he'll be on the Nets next year? I don't. I think he'll be on the Nets next year. If you gave me, I don't know, minus 130, won't be on the Nets next year? I don't. I think he'll be on the Nets next year. If you gave me, I don't know, minus 130, won't be on the Nets, plus 110, will be on the Nets, I would take the minus 130. Really? I was going to give you three to one that he wasn't going to be on the Nets.

Maybe you want to lay minus 130. We'll negotiate later. They're going to get like 20 cents on the dollar if they trade them. So I just think their best case scenario is that they can turn it around. Otherwise, they're just going to get... The last thing they need is another soap opera on top of all the other soap operas. Get as many soap operas as possible just so the soap operas distract each other.

You've got a team with Kyrie. There's going to be a soap opera no matter what. What would you do with him? What would you do with him for a contract? I can't deal with people who don't believe that the Earth... If you're a flat earther, I can't. You're asking me what do you do with him? What would you do with him for a contract? I don't know. I can't deal with people who don't believe that the earth... If you're a flat earther, I just... I can't. You're asking me what I do with it. You can't give a four-year max? I just can't deal with that. I just don't know how to communicate or feel like... I thought I had trouble dealing with working in the Mavericks

front office. I have a lot of trouble with someone who didn't believe that the earth was supervised would not be able to handle that. So what do you do? I don't know. You pay him? I don't know. It doesn't look like a guy you want to pay. That's for sure. Especially because he's... But I mean, you should ask him because he said that he is also part of management. So ask him what he wants to pay himself

and maybe he'll tell you because he says that it's... You heard that, right? It's a... He said that... Well, I figured he's going to negotiate with himself. That'll be the natural idea of this. This is Kyrie.

Kyrie's like, I sat down with myself today and we've made some good progress. But it'll probably end up in a contract dispute. Right. I stormed away from the table as I stared at myself in the mirror. He's a strange... I mean, he's so gifted and it doesn't seem like he's a bad dude. Like really, it's just, he just has like these, this weird attitude about being a little bit clever,

you know, like a little bit more, you know, I don't know. The whole thing is just very interesting to me that I get the flat earth thing is kind of a meme. I don't think he really believes the earth is flat. Why would you be wanting to talk about that? Like, how is that the thing you want? Like there's lots of conspiracies by the way MKUltra Operation Northwoods

like all of these like things that you could tie or you know really tie yourself to that are actually you know pretty interesting conspiracy why don't they show the Maxwell trial on TV and yet I can watch every minute of the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial how does that make sense well that's

because it's a state versus... That's different. One's a civil case. I still would watch it. I would have watched it too. It would have been great. Anyways, we spent way too much time on Kyrie Irving, I think. I don't know.

I don't know. I'm not positive we spent enough. I would be really interested to see who else would want him. This summer might set the record for people arguing about what somebody's value is between Westbrook, Kyrie, Harden. Is he a max guy anymore? Who's rushing to give him

like a ton of money? Ben Simmons we talked about. And then you even go to guys like Donovan Mitchell who I would have thought, all right, three months ago even, I'd be like, all right, RJ Barrett, how many picks?

Like, what would the Knicks have to offer to get in the game? Now I'm like, would I give up RJ Barrett on a rookie deal for Donovan Mitchell? Like, I don't, from what I'm watching, I don't even know if I would do that. Yeah, I mean, he was ridiculously good for a couple of playoff runs,

let's be clear. Yeah, he was. But was it the type of good that also uplifted his teammates? I don't know. That's another question. I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't know.

I'm not a huge RJ. I think RJ Barrett's an improving player. You should like him. He's Canadian. Yeah, he's Canadian. You got to support him. You got to support Steve Nash. All these dudes.

Let's take a break. I want to talk Memphis, Minnesota. All right. out of sports, Steve Nash, all these dudes. Let's take a break. I want to talk Memphis, Minnesota. Alright, so before we talk Memphis, Minnesota, just quickly on the Celtics' I forgot to bring this up to you. One of your great bets of all time was the 2004 Pistons over the Lakers. That was not one

of my great bets. I thought that was one of your great bets. I like the Lakers. It was because I pivoted after game two when it was 1-1. I thought you made money from that. I did. I did. But it wasn't... It wasn't before

the series. Okay. Yeah. Before the series, I thought the Lakers were going to win. I was like the Kool-Aid. I was like, oh, the Lakers. And then I watched game one and I was just like... And then the Lakers won the second game in overtime. And I was just like, yeah, they've got no chance to beat this team. So that part of it was. But going in, I was an idiot.

I thought the Lakers were going to win. My best... I think my best gambling playoff series ever was Mavericks versus Warriors in 2007. That was like 11 to 1. Little seven-figure win. The time was huge for me. I would hope so. I would hope it would be huge for you now. Seven figures? I don't know. I probably wouldn't get a bed for seven figures, Bill. It just depends on what else I had planned for the day.

But that Nets Celtics reminded me a little of that 0-4 Lakers Pistons where people were sleeping on the Celtics. What, what was going on with the team as a whole defense and just, they were younger, they were hungrier, they're more athletic. It was just an incredible matchup for them.

And to the bitter end, people were like, no, no, it's Durant and Kyrie. Even the last game, the Celtics were, I think one and a half point underdogs in game four.

Yeah. We had this whole sample size. Yeah, you brought up a pretty good I mean, that is a pretty good corollary between those two for sure when you frame it that way. I just didn't see this Nets team as being dominant. Like the Shaq, Kobe, those teams won championships before.

This was just like a couple guys decided they wanted to play together and never won a playoff series really with the exception of like one round the previous year. Um, but yeah, the, the Celtics defense, I definitely, I definitely was, I mean, I mean, you were joking about it the first week of the season. They were switching. Nobody knew switching everything, but nobody knew what the responsibilities were. They were getting beat with just, they looked awful.

They remember they had a players only meeting meeting, a closed-door meeting. We had seven players-only meetings. Is that right? Oh, man, at least. It was like five to seven. Yeah, it was the first two months where we were like, what's going on with this coach? Why does he keep challenging these guys?

This isn't working. You can't do this in today's NBA. Guess what? It worked. The guy was, Udoka was a genius. He made all these guys super tough. Yeah, no, they have... Yeah, they have probably one of the better defenses

I've seen in recent memory, just in terms of like, there's just nowhere to go. The only thing you can really do to beat that team, really, is try to get their big, whoever their big rebounding guy is. But they're just so... All their guys rebound so well. And then you just have to crash with abandon because you're not going to get by them. You're not going to... Your them. You're not going to,

your, your, your initial offense isn't going to be great. And because they're switching everything, those are the like teams that teams that, that, that run a switch, everything offense,

defend the point of attack better, the initial shot better, but they defend the offensive rebound worse. The offensive rebound rate goes up some percentage. Uh, when you, when some percentage when you switch everything. So you just really have to... But I mean

are you really going to win that many offensive rebound battles over Marcus Smart or Jalen Brown or Tatum? We're not talking about a Trey Young or a Jalen Brown. Jalen Brown's a pretty good rebounder, but you're not talking about most of these teams that do this. It's really impressive. It is really impressive. Well, and then you think like Milwaukee without Middleton

and the Celtics, whether he comes back middle of that series or whatever, it's not going to start till Sunday. But the Celtics have caught some breaks here. This is a team that was not getting breaks for a couple of years. And it's between Harden, Simmons, and even

Middleton going down and Bede with his thumb. Now Jimmy Butler has knee soreness. Lowry's already banged up. Everyone's injured. It's crazy. I don't remember a playoffs where there's just been this many injuries to key guys. But you said they made, they've been lucky, but

I was kind of thinking, okay, do you really want to play Brooklyn but they did and I guess he went to the players and asked the players and the players he wanted them yeah yeah fuck yeah we want to play these guys so good for them I mean super well and then the key thing out of it is you get the game seven at home which I still

I've said repeatedly on this person versus the Bucks yeah you get the round two game seven at home which I think matters Minnesota Memphis so I'm old enough the Bucs. Yeah, you get the round two game seven at home, which I think matters. Minnesota, Memphis. I'm old enough to remember the Rick Adleman era Blazers.

You're old enough to remember the Rick Adleman Kings. There are these certain teams, these talented, super entertaining teams that just can't help themselves. They can't help doing the dumbest things at the worst possible times or having some brain fart, blowing a lead.

It's entertaining to watch the whole time. Minnesota's really early in the journey. Like I tweeted about this today, about how they reminded me, you know, very early stages at Drexler Blazers. Maybe unfair, like that Blazers team made two finals. I think the Timberwolves fans would probably,

if I told them right now, you're gonna make the finals twice in the next six years, they'd be like, sign us up. We're in. Like we've barely had anything good happen.

Our entire franchise exists. And at the same time, that stuff, like Edwards, who I love, who comes through in the clutch with this huge three and this design play that was beautiful,

comes out of the timeout. He's like, I'm going to guard John Morant. Not only does he chase for a steal, he's behind him. Yeah, yeah. Not even close to the ball. And all of a sudden, John's a two-on-one with three seconds left. That was so bad. And Minnesota is two plays away from the series is over.

Instead, they're down 3-2. Yeah. No, it's interesting. Both those teams play like they're on bath salts. I've never seen anything like that before in my life. It's just like a frenetic... I used to play poker with these Chinese guys who would play really solid

and then go do a bump of cocaine or something like that. And you just wait for them to go to the bathroom and come back because that's when you knew they were going to play out of their minds. These guys are out of their minds while they're playing. They're fast breaking one-on-four fast break, pull up, Delo shooting one-on-three, one-on-four. It's fun to watch, but there's not... The Rick Adleman coach teams at least had some structure. Yeah, true. And the Timberwolves have some structure defensively. They run a pretty good defensive scheme. They've done a really good job.

If you're trying to hide D-Lo and Carl Anthony Towns, two guys who are not good defenders, and you have a good defense, that's impressive. But offensively, it's a little helter-skelter. How about Towns? This didn't work the last time. Maybe I won't start talking shit up 15 in the third

quarter. No, I'm going to do it again. This time it's going to work. He's very lacking. It seems like he's very much lacking in self-awareness, but I guess aren't we all? It's very, very interesting to watch that team play. That being said, going into the series, everyone's like,

oh, how did you... First of all, I didn't think they were going to beat the Clippers. Yeah. Let alone take this series the way they are. They almost didn't. Yeah, and this series has been like... They could very well be up three games to two. I don't know what to make of this

Grizzlies team. They're up 3-2 in this series. They're a terrible three-point shooting team. Today, they're 7-28. They have a second-best player who I voted third for defensive player of the year, and the only reason I didn't vote him higher is because he keeps fouling out.

Well, guess what? He fouled out again. He's been awful. I think he has 26 fouls in five games. 5.2 fouls a game in a series? That's bad. Yeah, that's super bad. The interesting thing, though, is

I looked at his foul numbers per minute when he's paired with Adams versus when he plays the five. It's pretty drastically different. It's almost a 40% increase in foul rate. So I think part of it is he's a walking foul. That's part of it.

The other part of it is he's tasked to play the five without Adams, who he's normally played. They went away from Adams early in the series very, very quickly, which is interesting. You're the two seed in a playoff series versus the seven. You jump your starting center in one game. Yeah. This reminds me a lot of the Mavericks going out of not playing

Dasania Jopp versus the We Believe Warriors. That being said, they were getting barbecued with Adams out. I think they gave up like 1.4 points per possession or something like that with him on D. A lot of it was because he was slow in rotation and he couldn't, he couldn't, he just couldn't contend with, with,

with those guys. But yeah, the Jackson thing is big. The foul trouble for Jackson thing is big. A lot of them are just like really dumb fouls to like over the back, loose ball, you know, reaching the back court.

Well, wait on the, on the town scale though. He's not, if towns is a 10 on the town's dumb foul scale, Jackson's probably an eight. I mean, Towns is the master on the Towns dumb foul scale. Jackson's probably an 8. I mean, why is he not? Towns is the master of the dumb foul.

I would even call them the Towns. I would call them a Towns foul. No, I think Jackson's got to be higher. The guy's fouled out of like, how many games is he fouling out? It's just like he's fouling out of almost every game. He's like in foul trouble every game. And that at the refs.

He's yelling at the refs. It could be the refs. It could be the refs. You could be right. I thought I was allowed to jump on somebody's back. Yeah, so they have... You look at the Timberwolves. Russell, who's in my 21st century pantheon of guys I just don't enjoy watching.

And he took just a god-awful shot today in the final minute. That shot that went over the rim and hit the other side of the backboard. That was their big whatever. They have him. Towns, I'm just always going to be frustrated by. Edwards, who I absolutely love. But the problem with Edwards is he's so fearless

and so confident that he literally talked his coach into guarding John Moran on the final play of the game. It did such a bad job that he was five feet closer to his own basket with three seconds left than he was to John Moran. Maybe don't have him guard John Moran. He would have made that steal and dunked it in.

Could he have dunked that in three seconds? He might have been able to. He might have been able to. Yeah, Giannis could have for sure. Yeah, I'm not on the Russell train either. I'm not a D'Lo guy. I don't know that you can win a lot with a guy who plays his style of basketball nowadays.

It was telling that Golden State was so bullish on immediately trading him. Yeah, that was interesting. It's like in baseball when Tampa Bay is like, hey, anybody have any interest in this pitcher? You're like, uh-oh, why are you trying to trade somebody? I don't want

who you're trading me. Yeah, that's a good point. Who do you see coming out of this series? Because we have Memphis up 3-2. Game 6 in Minnesota. Memphis has one good win. And if you're talking about 50-50 wins, which I think is always a good way to look at a series,

like even if you look at Denver Golden State, game three was really close. You know, that was a tight game. Whereas like Milwaukee-Chicago game three was an absolute shellacking. And if you thought Chicago was going to bounce back in game four, it was a little bit of a pipe dream. In this case, like I would think the Timberwolves would think,

we let two get away, we can win game six, and we can beat them in a game seven. I don't know what to make of this Memphis team anymore. It's tricky. I mean, Memphis won the game by two points and out-rebounded, out-rebound pointed them by 17. Wow. And, but they're also,

they're also getting good're, they're, they're, you know, they're, they're also getting good quality looks offensively. I mean, Morant up until he, just right before he like ended,

whoever it was, he dunked on, I'm not sure. It was a Vanderbilt. He don't know. Yeah. I think. Yeah.

Um, I was like, is Jamerant healthy? Like what, you know, what is, what is going on here? Is it,

is he easy? Cause he looked like he was not able to, I mean, I don't think he finished a floater. He wasn't really getting to any spots. You know what's interesting about that with Ja? And a lot of people have talked about his struggles in the half court.

He reminds me, and now he flipped this in the fourth quarter, but it reminded me, him trying to figure out this half court thing in these bigger games. It was that first year when Giannis was great, when he was like, I know, and you could kind of see his brain

was almost like Terminator 2. Him trying to put the pieces together of the information he needed to be able to conquer the challenge, but he was kind of learning in real time on the fly in playoff games. And then it got to the point last year where he was able to solve that. I thought with Ja,

he's like a running back. His instinct is just to be like, I'm just going to run through the hole and he was able to solve that. I thought with Ja, he's like a running back. His instinct is just to be like, I'm just going to run through the hole and there's going to be daylight. And in the playoffs with these smarter teams, with the continuity and you're playing teams over and over again, it's just harder to do that. They're used to all your moves.

You're seeing them every 48 hours. But then when he got that dunk, it was like he supercharged his athletic powers for the rest of the half. It didn't matter anymore. He was just going through everybody. I don't know. Who do I like? I don't know. Memphis, 27% transition rate. That's last game. That's so over a quarter of their possessions for transition. That's absurd. And this is like versus a team in Minnesota who wasn't even really like turning the ball over. I mean, they were turning the ball over a little bit.

They weren't selling out on the offensive glass. I don't know. I would find it very, very difficult for... I think the series is effectively over. It could go seven. By the way, these two teams in a game seven, anything could happen. Their home court advantage might be worth nothing with these guys in a game seven. This is like a pure...

These two teams are just going at it like a couple lunatics for the most part. I don't know. I think Memphis is a better team, obviously. I think... But I was asked this on the internet today. I was like, who's the...

Forget about who the best player is overall, but who do you think the best player in the series has been? In Timberwolves-Grizzlies? Yeah. I mean, most consistent is probably Bain. Yeah. Yeah.

Bain or... I don't think he's the best player, but I think Bain's been... Edwards certainly, for the fact that he's 20 years old, I think has been amazing. I mean, it's got to be... When you think like

Kobe getting thrown into those playoff series, those first two Lakers years, and especially the first year where he seemed completely overmatched. It was slightly more comfortable the second year, but it really took the three years. For Edwards to be this advanced where they're running the game-ending play for him.

That was an amazing play, by the way, that they ran. McLaughlin. With that cool pass? Yeah. That was really... McLaughlin's been really good this series. It's interesting.

I agree. He's, for a little guy. It's interesting. I agree. For a little guy, he's very disruptive defensively. And he just doesn't seem to need to force up any shots. Whereas Russell's really

forcing it a little bit offensively every now and then. These playoffs are showing yet again why you should never pay like $9 million a year for a point guard that's not a potential all-star. It just seems like every year you can find these guys. Alvarado, where did he

come from? And it's like, he should be playing more. They keep following these habits where it's like, alright, I guess we'll play Alvarado and then he's playing the last 18 minutes of the game. Yeah, he's been pretty disruptive for sure.

They've definitely found some defensive guys on that team. You must love Herb Jones. Yeah, I like Herb Jones. Our draft model actually likes Herb Jones as well. Really? Those guys always show up really, really well in the draft models because they're so impactful on the game.

I mean, he was like, I think he was a defensive player of the year in his conference. He had like all those block, rebound, et cetera stats in college translate well when they're wings. If you're big, it doesn't really translate well always. But yeah, I definitely liked him for sure. He was a sleeper, sleeper late guy. But I always like those guys

who are not great offensively, but are really, really good defensively. You're like, right. Right was your guy. Which guy? Right. Yeah. He's having a moment right now. He, yeah. I mean, he's definitely having a moment. I don't know that he's necessarily...

The moment's over. I don't know that we could... I don't know that we could define what that moment is. He's at least looking decent again. When you buy an NBA team and you hire me as your GM, I just want switchable athletes with size. When you hire me as GM... Let's not undersell you. You're going to be the president of basketball operations. Thank you.

When I'm the PBO, I just want switchable athletes. I'm just looking for Scotty Barnes over and over again in the draft. I just want... Basically, I guess what Messiah decided on two years ago, where he's just like, I just want athletes, switchable. Let's go.

Those are the home runs. They really are. You might nail a diminutive point guard here and there, but you really need the big guys who are going to... Those are the ones that are going to take you to... You need the guys who can actually dominate a game on

both ends. Or not even at both ends, but at least be very, very physical offensively so that it's a problem to guard. I don't know who... Mikel Bredgers is probably the best wing defender, aside know who... Mikel Bridges is probably the best wing defender aside from Giannis. I think Giannis is the best wing defender in the league. But Mikel Bridges is the second.

But even a guy like Mikel Bridges, he'd struggle against a guy like Barnes a little bit just because the physicality part of it is tough to get into his body. That's the thing that's changed with Tatum as he's kind of grown into his freak body that he has. Like he's really strong that like all those guys, him Brown, smart, they're all like strong. And I think that Durant, and then you bring in the, it's like, oh, here's Grant Williams too.

And it's just, everybody's just kind of sturdy, you know, when you have, when you're athletic and sturdy at the same time and you can really body up these dudes. Durant, like, that's when he struggled in the past. Like, he's way back when Ron Artest. What series was that? Like, 2010? That was one. Some of the stuff Golden State did to him in 2016. Remember, he cratered those last three games.

He was bad. He cratered the last three games? I don't remember that. The 2016. Remember, he was shooting, like, I think those last three games, he was probably, like, 38%, 40%. games, he's probably like 38, 40%. Like he just didn't play well.

And Westbrook obviously wasn't open either. His game is like, I don't know. Like I get that he's like anti-analytics. I get that he's like the most gifted scorer in the NBA. He just really doesn't do himself any favors by playing that style of basketball. Like it's,

he's so efficient at the long too. He's the best in the league at it. doesn't do himself any favors by playing that style of basketball. He's so efficient at the long two. He's the best in the league at it, 55%, whatever. That's okay in the half court. But that's defense

independent, great, whatever. But this series, they had a 40% long two-rate, 45. They had the third and fifth, I think, highest long two-rate games over the last two years. And in the playoffs, I think that... Yeah, it's just like you just can't really... You just can't fight the math that much.

If you look at the Celtics, Celtics are getting an open three more often than not. The net spacing was so bad. They were spending 15 to 16 seconds trying to get the off in the knot. The net spacing was so bad. They were spending 15 to 16 seconds trying to get him a ball at the elbow. Seltzer doing a great job of pushing him further and further out. So it was no longer the elbow or a foot in the paint when he was getting his post touches. They were all the way out by the three-point line. They had cleared out that side to run empty for him. There was nobody pulling up towards the top. So it was like,

you could just double team him with impunity and yeah he's gonna get a fadeaway long two and if he makes it you're like oh unguardable but like if you're to ask the celtics they'd be like yeah take 30 of these a game we'd love you to you know whereas you can come down and just bang in a three every now and then hit a three or get to the rim because that's what they weren't i think that people don't realize like this is a little anti-nets rant i apologize for but it was it was so hilarious watching their offensive sets because people think like, okay, so Durant likes to take long twos, he likes to post up. Great. Okay. It was kind of similar to the KP situation in Dallas. That's good, but nobody else is ever getting to the rim when you do that. You understand that, right? When you're camped out there,

we're never ever getting a layup. Then we're not breaking down the defense. We're not getting wide open three. So it's like, yeah, it's efficient when he shoots the shot, but every other time he doesn't shoot the shot and he's just taking up space, you have an awful offense. Like they would get transition opportunities and he would run down and plant himself in the paint. And because of that, his guys weren't getting like Mills isn't getting a layup now. And it turns into a long two because now the one guy who's back is just has to stand in the paint. And unless the guy, the ball handler stops the three-point line and shoots, you're not getting a wide open three-way layup. So I don't know, end of rant there. I just think like a guy like that, who I actually really enjoy listening to

him talk about the game of basketball because he's very smart. He's very thoughtful. He's It really isn't that. Last time I checked, this wasn't gymnastics. These guys didn't go out there and play for 48 minutes, then a panel of judges voted on who wins the game. They keep score. So whoever's winning, there's math involved there. So why wouldn't you want to have the math work in your favor just a little bit more? Very tilting to watch, but also great to watch because you could just be like, oh yeah, I can just blindly bet on the Celtics every game because they get it. This other team doesn't. And the other team happens

to be the public team and everyone thinks they're going to win because they have more stars. Because they have more famous players. Well, ironically, Durant was in the right situation for all the stuff you just talked about, the 2017 Warriors. The way there is moving for them. It started to go south as the years went on, but that first year they had way there is movement for them? Yeah, but even there

it started to go south as the years went on but that first year they had a lot of movement with him. He talked about it. But just to be clear, I'm not even advocating

movement. I'm advocating having two guys spaced out above the break on the hash. Yeah, I got you. Extreme spacing. You should never have

more than one guy in the paint in a possession and then that's frequently had two and one guy in the paint in a possession. And then that's frequently had two and three guys in the paint. Well, the irony is if you put him in the corner, not only terrifying, but you have to account for the fact that he has a sliver of time.

He's making a 24-footer. I don't even know that I would necessarily put him in the corner. I would just make sure that I had him somewhere. I'm just saying to mix it up. Yeah, where you can attack and not in situations where you're just happy to have him take the shot. If you did a same-game parlay, which

game do you like more tomorrow? Denver Golden State or Chicago-Milwaukee? Chicago-Milwaukee doesn't even exist to me. That's how I feel about that series. That's like the least interesting series. So to answer your question, probably Denver-Golden State. I don't know. Tomorrow's a pretty... I might just take the day off tomorrow and just not even watch basketball.

Maybe. I don't know. That's a... Sorry, I didn't mean to ruin your question. Anybody you're excited about? I'm trying to figure out a same-game parlay for the Warriors. Oh, a same-game parlay? Yeah. They have the same-game parlay, so you can have some fun. Throw some together. Try to get the corner with us.

Milwaukee minus 12 in the under. That wouldn't be the worst. Milwaukee minus 12 in the under. Yeah. Under minus 217.5. By the way, the total in that series started 230. Game one was 230. That was probably the most absurd

point total. Game two, I believe, was 224.5. It went down five points. Or 225.5 and then someone bet it down to 224.5. Every game has gone under, I believe. So you can do Bucks under Giannis 20 points,

Giannis 10 rebounds, and you're getting... You want the rebound for sure. Plus 272. You want 10 rebounds, and you're getting plus 272. You want the rebounds if you bet the under because then it's correlated to misses. You don't necessarily want the points, although it could work in your favor. But yeah, you got to think about this like a card counter, Bill.

You got to think of every little edge. How can I squeeze out every little edge? So you like the unders with these playoff games. That's one of your favorites. I mean, when the point total is 230 and one team can't shoot, yeah, I like that. One team has no shooters on the floor. Levine's the only guy out there

who really can shoot half the time. Yeah, that seems like a decent play. Last question for you. Conference winners. These are on Fando. Last question for you. Conference winners. These are on Fando. Celtics plus 180. They are now the favorites. Heater plus 195,

even though they would have home court. Yeah, I'd like to be the Celtics with those odds. Those are very unfair odds. Well, you were the one, you were telling me years ago, don't bet future odds, just bet series by series, game by game. And the Brooklyn series is a good example.

Just bet the Celtics every game. You're doing way better than you would have. I had a friend who bet the Celtics to win the NBA championship at five and a half to one. I was just like, do you hate money? You could just bet them in the first series at minus 130, then parlay that in the next series, and then you've got

two more series to go. Who do I think is going to come out of the East? I think the winner of Milwaukee Boston is the winner of the East. I agree. That's your series right there. Who do you like more, Golden State or Phoenix?

Assume Booker's back in two weeks. I'd probably take Golden State. I'm there too because... I don't know. It's so hard because I know at the beginning you were like Phoenix was the team.

But it was with an injury. Yeah. And they had the injury and I don't trust hamstrings where they're like, yeah, it could be back in a week and then you come back and they're 80% the rest of the way

and that could be the difference in a series against Golden State. I do feel like, talked about this a little on Sunday with Priscilla, the Golden State defense. It's good. Well, I think you can score on them though if they play the pool, Thompson, whatever,

and you have to put 47 minutes on Draymond and all that stuff. I do think Phoenix could score on them. Yeah, Phoenix, I mean, Phoenix can score on anyone just because they've got surgical precision to their offense. Phoenix is good. That series will be a lot of fun.

Golden State just hasn't really been healthy ever. Every other team now is suffering from some injuries. They're healthy. This series doesn't look like it's going to be that much of a toll on them. I don't know. I actually think Dallas versus Phoenix is an interesting series.

People are sleeping on how good the Mavericks are. They picked up Bullock and then they hired an actual defensive coach with the great... Their defensive game plan is so simple, but so good. All the guys work really, really hard. Luka's a problem. I mean, if you look at the Phoenix series, it's going to be like, can they figure out a way to get the ball out of Chris Paul's

hands at the end of the game? Because that's what's killed them every time they've played Phoenix in the last two years. It's just been Chris Paul dicing them up in the last. And to be perfectly fair, I don't think that the strategy was necessarily that great in years past that specific thing. And now I think that the current coaching staff has a much better handle on,

on that. And the players more importantly are more engaged for whatever reason. So I don't know. I wouldn't necessarily cakewalk them to the, to the Western conference finals. I would cake cakewalk them to the Western Conference Finals. I would cakewalk Golden State to the Conference Finals for sure. Over Memphis or Minnesota?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, can you imagine Minnesota trying to guard Curry on all these cuts and stuff like that? I mean, that would be very, very interesting. I think Towns would have a lot of trouble. Plus Wiggins' Revenge Series. That might be the one series that wakes up Wiggins.

There you go, yeah. I'm with you on Dallas. One of these years, Lucas, I've been predicting it for three years in a row, and I've been wrong the first two years. I'm not even predicting it this year, but Lucas is so good, one of these years,

he's just going to put together a couple rounds. He'll be like, wow, Lucas in the Western Finals. He's averaging over 30 points a game in the playoffs. You know how absurd that is? People aren't talking about that enough. He's just an absolute fucking problem. He's like 39-9

in the playoffs for his entire career. It's absurd. Playoffs. And he played the nut-low worst matchup probably. The first year of the Lakers probably would have been a matchup where we had no chance against. Clippers were second worst. Last year, it was

most definitely the Clippers. That's just a bad matchup for that. Just drawing stone dead versus that team. And still managed to go to seven. Right. All right. Bob, you can follow him on Twitter. Very entertaining. You've been a little frisky on the Twitter these days.

I don't know if the Elon Musk buying Twitter is just a little hop in your seat now. I feel free now. Finally, free speeches right at Twitter. Don't have to care about how I'm perceived on Twitter. It's definitely liberating. Good to see you. Come back for the finals.

Awesome. Yeah. Thanks the finals. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it. All right. Van Lathan is here. You've heard him on this podcast. You've heard him on Rewatchables.

You've also heard him on The Ringerverse, where he's one of the co-hosts, as well as Higher Learning, where he's one of the co-hosts. Now, author. Author, Van Lathan. Congratulations. Thank you very much. fat crazy and tired tales from the trenches of transformation in stores now it's it's pretty pretty wild man

pretty wild to have written a book you've been working on this ever since i got to know you which i think it was like four years ago whenever that kanye thing happened and we started talking um but so what got you over the hump because you're still working on this last summer uh well the book changed drastically right at first the book was about it's just the weird the way life goes the first book was about sort of conquering all these demons mentally and physically like my weight and my depression and all of that stuff. Yeah. And then the pandemic came and those things came back. So not just for you, but for the country. Right.

So then those things came back. I gained 30 pounds and I got depressed again. And something I've never really talked about is the fact that when the pandemic hit, um, in 2020, I had just started with The Ringer. Like, just started, right? And me and Jamel were doing the way down in the whole podcast.

And shout out to everybody who wants a podcast for We Own This City, which I haven't even seen yet. But it just tells me that there's a lot of way down in the hole fans out there. And I remember, just so people know this, I remember actually hitting you and hitting Juliet and going, yo, I need like a week, a week and a half. Like, I can't do it. Like, just I just I'm too fried. Like, I need it. And you guys going, OK. Like, just that simple.

And that was important. It was important because during that time, that's the time that I was able to get on track with my therapy. I was able to sort of recenter and like kind of pull back a little bit, not have to be on the mic and going, ha, ha, ha, ha, whatever. You know what I mean? And so during that whole thing is when I really started to realize that I had to put my foot, during that time, I had to put my foot on the gas pedal with the book and kind of get it out and talk to people about this because it was cathartic for me, you know? And do you feel like that became such a big topic of conversation in pandemic? It almost seems like a more normal idea than it did three years ago, right? Yeah, it kind of did. And coping, really coping really the book is kind of about coping and some really major things happen, you know, during the time that I was writing it.

You know, I had to go back and write more. I lost my dad. You know, we've talked about that before. We my company won the Academy Award. So we talked about that. Just a lot of different things had happened in life that were testing the sort of mental and physical fortitude that i thought that i had um yeah to listen to charles holmes's takes every week every week that tested your mental fortitude absolutely you know what's crazy about that people think that it's a chore it's's not. It's like, you know that crazy cousin that you have and you love him? It's fun when it's at Thanksgiving. You understand him so much so.

How about this? So much so that you sick him on people. You know what I mean? That everybody will be around and you'll be like, hey, hey, hey, Cousin Jimmy, tell them what you think about Martin Luther King. Go ahead and tell them. Tell them. Watch this. And so Charles is literally one of the smartest people I've ever known.

And nothing that he says isn't well-informed. So I learn what people hold sacred, and then I send Charles in to destroy it for them. Book came out. Are you on the media tour? I am on the media tour. Yeah, I'm on the media tour right now. Breakfast Club. Breakfast Club.

Yeah, Breakfast Club tomorrow. Shout out to Charlamagne Tha God. I got DJ Academics Off the Record podcast. So let's see if I get canceled tonight. Sway in the Morning. I got Kimmel in May. And then just the big boy. Shout out to big boy.

Shout out to radio. Shout out to the Stacks podcast. No cap podcast. Chicago King David out there in Chicago. I talked to him about it. So, yeah, just doing as much as I can, but not trying to oversaturate it. Just not trying to be everywhere at once. Like, hey, bought my book.

Just trying to be in nice spaces with good people to talk about it you know i like that you feel like it wasn't oversaturated but you just listed 13 shows in 10 seconds but you know i'm glad you think it's not oversaturated you didn't even mention this podcast i'm on this podcast yeah so and by the way i'm on this podcast you know what i mean so obviously i didn't think that i would have to name this podcast because i'm on this podcast. You know what I mean? So obviously I didn't think that I would have to name this podcast because I'm on this podcast. This is one of my biggest looks, man. Sean gave me a look. Sean, I don't know if you heard me on the big picture with Sean.

If you heard that, I have a new nemesis here at The Ringer. I heard it was Rob Mahoney, right? Who knew Rob Mahoney? He comes on here sometimes. He just has nice, normal, concise, good basketball takes, but has this whole crazy pop culture side to him. He's so good. And it makes me, I want a Batman Joker, that fucking situation right there.

I want to be the Joker. We need to get him on, or maybe the three of us on a rewatchable so that I could just unleash the two of you against each other. Let's talk basketball. Congrats on the book. Go buy the book. Do it. Back crazy and tired. Think of all the free content Van gave

you over the last two plus years. Wire podcast, two other feeds, a bunch of great rewatchables podcasts. Just go get it. There you go. Just go get the book. Sad as Charlotte made for me. Okay.

Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving. Yes. The Brooklyn Nets. KD just can't quit Kyrie. Right. He just can't. I don't think he's gonna.

This is just a deep friendship. This is Andy and Red and Shawshank. This is Forrest and Lieutenant Dan. It's just there's a loyalty here that I do not fully understand. I don't get it. So who's the white guy in these situations? Because you've

named two black-white friendships. You went interracial. Well, Forrest Gump and Lieutenant Dan were white guys. Oh, Lieutenant Dan. Yeah. You said Lieutenant Dan. No, not Bubba Gump. No, Bubba Gump would have been insulting.

Why would you? I would think that Forrest and Bubba are better friends than Forrest and Lieutenant Dan. I don't know why I thought Bubba. Forrest and Bubba, they were in the woods together for a couple months. Lieutenant Dan put on fucking metal legs and came back for Forrest's wedding. These are the same things that make the space shut a lot of. Yeah, they spent all that time in that boat talking about life.

They were much better friends than Bubba Gump. I guess. That's an interesting one. So look, yeah, he just can't quit him. You know, it's interesting. I think that Kyrie is Kevin Durant's Charles Holmes. I think Kevin Durant likes the way Kyrie fucks with people. He understands the fact that Kyrie, I don't think it has anything to do with basketball

because basketball-wise, those are, Kevin Durant can play any style of basketball. He can ISO you, he can play off the ball, mid-post, shoot it deep. He's such an offensive weapon that really on the court this is obviously not a traditional back-to-the-basket seven-footer, but on the court he can pretty much do anything. Unless it's against the Celtics.

You know, go ahead and basket him. They did shut him down for four straight games. You're being such a little shit about this, man. People are acting like, I can't believe the Nets lost. And it's like,

how about the fact that the Celtics were really good and way better than them? And even the Nets and Kyrie and KD after the game were like, that team was better than us. KD said they had the best defense in the league. I know. So this is the thing. And I'll get back to my take on Kyrie.

No, go back to your take on kairi no go back to your take i we gotta finish the take then we get okay so the take the take is this so i actually think that what endears um i think kevin durant has played with the guys that everybody's loved he's been on the beloved team yeah he's been on the team with the guy with the thousand megawatt smile and this is not me speaking for kevin. I haven't spoken to him about this. I haven't talked to anybody about this. He's been on the team with the guy with the thousand megawatt smile.

He's been on the team where, you know, it's Mr. Love Everybody. I think he has a certain view of basketball. Him and Kyrie Irving both are pure hoopers at heart. And I think he likes sort of being the bad boy of this thing. He likes being the guy who is almost the basketball antihero.

And I don't think there's a better cohort to have in that situation than Kyrie Irving. I think your Hooper at heart thing is the gist of this. Because he's said that. He's talked on the record about before they became teammates, including on this podcast, about how much he appreciated the TLC that Kyrie put into his offensive game in the craft itself. And I think that's what he really responds to is the craft. So I think that's how they became friends. I think they're both weird guys. Sometimes weird guys click together and next thing you know, they're playing together. But I do feel like there's a piece of this

where you almost think of this like, this is your friend who was in the nine-year relationship with the girl from high school. That was OKC. And at some point in year five, year six, maybe the heart and trade was the impetus where it's like, yeah, break up with her.

No, no, no. And super loyal. And then by about year eight, it it. So yeah, I break up with her. No, no, no. And super loyal. And then by about year eight, it's like, I need to break up with her. I need a new, I need a new somebody. And then golden state became this girlfriend that was unattainable or just

this new world. And they're going places. They're doing things he never did with the old girlfriend. It was really exciting for like a year. And then all of a sudden it wasn't as exciting anymore for whatever reason. And then he starts gravitating toward this other, this other person. And he like,

can't resist it. And this is like, this is my guy, Kyrie. Like over here, I have Curry and Draymond and Steve Kerr and a team that spends $200 million and has won

three titles in four years. Or this guy. And then you throw in the New York thing and they start having these late night calls. This is just my theory, by the way. I don't know if I'm right. They're on the phone at three in the morning. Pretty well developed here. I like it. Thank you. They're on the phone at three in the morning. Pretty well developed here. I like it. Keep going. Thank you. They're on the phone at three

in the morning. Yeah, we could run New York. Yeah. Could be our place. LeBron's got LA and Steph's got the Bay. We'll run New York. Yeah, let's do it. And then Brooklyn's obviously wants them. And they're like, well, if we come there, you guys got to put us in charge of stuff. Cool.

Great. Done. You got to sign our friend DeAndre Jordan. 10 million a year for three years. All right. Done. That's a wrap. Not sure about the coach.

We'll feel him out for a year. Okay. Good. Anything else? Like now, courtsides. Take some courtsides. Great.

Done. And then they're in and he's in a much better situation. He's like, I played this perfectly, but doesn't realize. And he's in a much better situation. He's like, I played this perfectly. But doesn't realize that now he's stuck with Kyrie and he doesn't really have any

full idea what Kyrie is like to just work with week to week, year to year. And now he's in complete denial about it, it seems like. So that was the worst HBO pilot pitch I've ever just heard. Ballers. Thank you. Basketball edition.

Thank you. No. Look edition. No, thank you. Oh, no. Look, so I don't know. Ballers 2. Basketball. Actually, if that actually, well, now that I think about it, it wouldn't be that bad of an HBO show to do that exact same thing. So this is, I don't know how much of that is, is the actual story.

It obviously could be the story. I think the real story is about the complicated way that people have to craft their legacy nowadays, right? Yeah. It's not enough to just be a great basketball player anymore. You have to be the defining basketball player of your generation. This is the legacy handed down from Michael Jordan.

So because that's, what's expected of every single person right you have to change the game and be singular in some way just being a part of a winning formula isn't enough you keep hearing people say that kevin durant go win a real ring go win a real ring you know what i mean like it's clive is clive drexler thought of in that way you know our other other places are to be honest with you, to your, uh, are Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett thought of in that way, you know? Right.

Well, with that, we, I didn't mention the piece. This wasn't, didn't work for my girlfriend analogy, but the, no, it's been mentioned a million times in this podcast, but it was, he realized eventually that was Steph Curry's team and that was never going to be Kevin Durant's team. And he wanted his own team. It's not his own city and the whole thing. Yeah, it's Steph Curry's city. It's Steph Curry's franchise.

The thing is, nowadays you have to have that. It has to be yours. We're living in this weird dominated by guys like Elon Musk and whomever with this weird sort of and all the ways that we've gotten all of this progress that people ballyhoo about. We've also, we're living in this real alpha male society,

this phase to where everything that happens good, it has to happen because of you or it doesn't matter that it happened, right? So the question is not that we won a championship. The question is because of who did this championship get won. That's the thing. And if people say, if people can't look at it and say, hey, you're the reason why this is happening,

you're the reason why this is going on, then it almost doesn't matter as much. People are taking shots at Scottie Pippen's legacy, one of the greatest wing defenders of all time, an integral part of six championships, and saying, well, it's not because of you that they won. Well, if I'm Scottie Pippen, I'm like,

well, bullshit. It's not in spite of me that they won. Well, if I'm Scottie Pippen, I'm like, well, bullshit. It's not in spite of me that they won. Well, KD got that with Barkley. We got the bus thing that Barkley said. Precisely. You either drive the bus or you're on the bus. He was very wary of all that stuff. And as much as I love Charles, you didn't have a

bus pass, dog. You never got there. You got to the finals, and Charles is it's like it's just it's a weird criticism and I'm glad that that KD actually came back it's a weird criticism coming from somebody who at the end of his career was like yo I need to go get one and they all do that the Karl Malone's of the world do that the Gary Payton's of the world you don't want to have played 15 16 17 years in the league and not had the feeling of raising that trophy and being one of the best of the best in the world. So I get it. But all of this stuff to the side, then Kyrie's situation was almost about freedom,

it seemed like. He wanted to go to a place to where he could make his own expectations. He didn't have to be the number one guy on the team. He just wanted to be free of LeBron. He wanted to be free of the tradition in Boston. He wanted to be, he wanted the right to be peculiar. It seemed like, and to be in an organization to where none of those things, there was nobody that was going to make him do anything,

or there was no expectations of him. Sounds like a great challenge kind of what he got you know and obviously what happened with brooklyn this year was a disaster but are you are you willing to say right now that the nets will never contend these guys are still young enough to come back and run it back and still be contenders are you willing to say right now that that team will never contend i i'm out on Kyrie completely. You're out on Kyrie. He's 30 years old. I think he is who he is. You go back through his last couple of seasons, he's like 20 in the playoffs. Talking, going back 2018 playoffs on, injured in two of them.

The other three is like 22 and five, 43% shooting. He doesn't guard anybody. Do you see him play defense yesterday? He's an NBA champion with the field't guard anybody. Did you see him play defense yesterday? He's an NBA champion with the field he's bad at all times. Yeah, I get it. That was six years ago. So Richard Jefferson was a champion that year too. He's a broadcaster now.

Like, I mean, honestly. For no reason. Just a stray. That wasn't a stray in Richard Jefferson. He's retired. It was six years ago. Right. All the guys on that team,

half of them aren't even in the league anymore. Like to say like, well, Kyrie's a champion like great it was 2016 Trump wasn't even the president yet 2016 it's a lifetime ago so I think you're taking a guard who's not reliable who's been hurt a bunch who puts himself over the team pretty much all the time and

actual playoff production a minus defender and actual playoff production, a minus defender, and maybe not as good offensively as people seem to think because Celtics sure shut his ass down for the last three games. Celtics definitely shut him down. It's Ramadan.

There were a lot of things going on. It was Ramadan for Jalen Brown too. Like, fair enough. But what I would say is, you know, you can scheme any player. You can scheme for any player. You can devise an offensive, a defensive strategy for any player. These Celtics are better than the Nets. the failure of Kyrie and Kevin Durant and not so much about the absolutely brilliant not star making legacy almost making turn that Jason Tatum had during this entire run we did that on we did this on Sunday's pod I was so mad that everyone's concentrated on Brooklyn and and nobody's noticing what's going on with the Celtics, which is like, I think Tatum is now one of the best five guys in the league.

That was not the case two weeks ago, but he has to be on the list now. It's look, and it's one thing to be, it's one thing to be, and you know, people might not agree with this. It's one thing to be an ace defender and a force on offense when you're a rim protector right yeah when you're a rim protector and you know they're funneling guys into you and you're throwing shots that can be coming down right when you're a rim protector when you're to ball up somebody and then have to chase around kevin durant i don't know that there's a tougher job but it's the kawaii thing it's basically he's he's absolutely what kawaii did in his peak tatum a tougher job. It's the Kawhi thing. It's basically he's what Kawhi did in his peak. Tatum did in that series.

I don't know if there's a tougher job. So, I mean, if the Celtics get any lesser version of Tatum, any lesser version, 5% less Tatum, they lose. You felt it when he fouled out yesterday. Yeah. It was like, oh shit. All of a sudden it was a lot easier to get shots because now we don't have the smart Jalen Tatum.

Here's two plays that define Kyrie to me. One is end of the quarter and a halftime, I think. And Grant Williams just gets the wide open three in the corner. And Steve VanCundy, the announcers very rarely will criticize players or coaches. Though if they do it, it'll be all coded, or they'll have fun with it.

In Van Gundy, you could just hear him. He was like, I just don't know what Kyrie Irving was doing on that play. Because he basically just left this guy alone, who is one of the five best corner three-point shooters in the league, just left him wide open. But the biggest one to me and this is what i'd be really worried about if i was a nets fan i'm trying to talk myself into this situation be better we just need more reps and we just get a couple more wings and we have a more if we're not so small all that stuff celts are up to durant misses the free throw. Marcus Smart, my guy,

the ultimate no-no-yes guy I think I've ever rooted for, instead of pulling it back and getting fouled, he has a two-on-one and decides to go to the basket. And as he's doing it, because I've been watching the guy for years, I'm like, he's going to fucking go to the basket. I'm going to have a heart attack right now. Goes to the basket,

misses the layup. Horford follow. Horford comes running in for the follow. Guess who's sitting there with a bird's eye view of the whole thing. Kyrie Irving. Does he box out? No. Is he involved in the play? Not at all.

He's just watching Horford go right by him, get the rebound. Doesn't think that to me, that's like his post LeBron career in a nutshell. And the fact is he left LeBron okay I have my buddy Hench my buddy Hench is obsessed with this is like since Kyrie filed for divorce from the

second greatest player of all time just go through the five years missed the playoffs in 18 out basically quit on the Celtics in 19 out in 2020 hurt last year, this year swept

because he didn't want to play with LeBron anymore. I just want you to remember that you're on record saying the Nets will never contend. No, I'm saying contend the way people seem to think. I think people are shocked they didn't win the title. Well, I mean, look, so this is what

I'd say about that. Number one, all of this he was sublime in game one and almost single-handedly won the game for them yeah so he was absolutely bonkers so we're we're so we're and then we're forgetting stop trying sir like we're forgetting that so he almost won the game for them single-handedly and the series might have very well been different had the cells not drawn up an incredible play and had it uh well i don't know if it was so much they drew it up but obviously ad libbed an incredible ad libbed an incredible play and you know taylor makes a great shot at the buzzer so we can't say that kairi wasn't a factor at all as a matter of

fact he basically almost won them a game and to be with you, a lot of that has to do with the way that they drew up a great scheme for Durant as well. There's coaching involved in this. Like, if we want to look at the game and say, okay, they lost because Irving and Durant couldn't get it done, well then, that to me goes back to the reason that people thought that they were going to win.

There's a tendency... No, the Celtics should get way more credit in the whole thing i thought that when i was there for game one all they want to do is beat the shit out of durant the whole game right that's all they cared about so the tendency for people was to look at the uh at the series and goko there's two top 75 guys right there yeah they're still close enough to their primes, or at least in their intellectual basketball primes, that it's going to be difficult to beat a team that has Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. It's a lot of offense. A lot of people

think that the team actually worked. Some people thought that the team worked better with just Kyrie and Kevin and not even having James Harden there, right? That there would be an easier team to space him. Defensively, he made them even worse, and they were an abomination. Ben never saw the court,

but people were still saying, hey, it's going to be tough for the Celtics to beat them. The Celtics didn't give a fuck about that. The Celtics had a formula. The Celtics had a game plan. The Celtics, not one second in that series, and I noticed it in game one, even as Kyrie was going to bananas, I'm looking, I'm like,

they don't think they're going to lose this game. Yeah. Like, they're looking at him and they're going, oh, yeah, okay, he's getting his. He's scoring, they're coming right down on the other end, getting into their offense. They're making sure to keep Durant out of the offense. And it's like, Leo, if Kyrie's going to be here tonight,

Kyrie's going to be here tonight.rie's going to be us tonight and you know he kind of shot his wall for the whole series but I think a lot of people looked at that and they kind of looked at the glitz and the glamour of the car itself and they weren't really checking what was under the engine that's what we do with basketball though people think about it like a fantasy team

they always underrate defense even somebody like Herb Jones on the Pelicans who I love right but that it's just his what he does is never going to be as sexy or as interesting to people as somebody like donovan mitchell who just puts up points but see the thing about the herb jones thing is that you can only see it until you see it right so that's what the playoffs are made for. You're never going to be watching a league pass game in fucking January or even like in November and go, wow, look at this Herb Jones kid. When that kid shows up, he shows up when he's guarding Chris Paul. I have tweets from November, but that's fine.

I tweeted about Herb Jones in November. On his home floor. Normal people, youb Jones in November. Just to be fair. On his home floor. Normal people, you're right. Normal people, you're right. Normal people, like on his home floor. Not scouts like myself. Yeah, not highly precise basketball minds.

Yeah, right there. Not the author of the best-selling book of basketball. Yeah, you know. I get it. You look at this guy up against Chris Paul, and as good a defense as he played against Paul, the thing that I love about Herb Jones, just being where I'm from, is Chris Paul comes down, he gives him a shove. He turns around, he looks at the ref.

He goes, oh, this how we live it? Bet. Turns around and puts Chris Paul on his ass. Motherfucker, you are in a basketball game. And it could be a fight if you want it to be. You're in a basketball game. You're not about the little brother of me. He turned around, looked down at the ref.

Oh, it's like that? Bet. How about when he wouldn't let him help him up? Yeah, I dare you to call it. I'm about to flatten this little dude. He's right there. They about to be... Shout out to New Orleans. They'm about to flatten this little dude. He's right there. Shout out to New Orleans. They're about to be a tough out for the Suns.

You might get on the bandwagon. I can feel it. Never happened. Who's your basketball team? The Lakers. Oh, that's terrible. We should just resign that. Why?

You deserve winning time. You deserve the mischaracterization of Jerry West. Can I tell you something about winning time last night? Yeah. So Jerry West is mad about winning time. He really is. He's upset. He's very upset. The person that should be mad, the people that should be mad is Dr. Buss' family.

That was literally the most disgusting scene i've ever seen on did you see the scene where dr buss is talking to the nurse and he is going to put the nurse he's gonna put the nurse's son through college or whatever he's being super altruistic then at the end of the episode he's he motorboats her he motorboats her after talking about the fact that his mom is sick. Kalika literally said, like when watching that, she goes fucking disgusting. It was the most off putting scene I've seen in a long time. Well,

don't you think that was intentionally off putting? It was, but Jesus Christ, they're, they're making it seem as if, so, so, you know,

I guess, and maybe this is true about Dr. Buss. I never knew the man, but they say that Jerry West has a fucking anger anger problem they're making fucking dr bus look like the lecherous worst sort of like nymphomaniac god that's ever lived it's really hard to watch sometimes i mean he did have photo album with all polaroids of people he had sex with that's when you know you've had a lot of sex with people.

It's true. It's like, hey, you want to see my album? Polaroids. Polaroids makes it nastier, too. I have a Twitter Elon Musk question for you. Let's do it. Some people are very upset about this. Right.

I see all the reasons. Mm-hmm. My thing is, if Twitter is a cesspool, and we all agree it's an awful place, which I think we the reasons. My thing is, if Twitter is a cesspool, and we all agree it's an awful place, which I think we all agree, it's like a place, it's like cigarettes. You don't want to have one,

but you end up going there. How can anyone make that place worse? Now, people say, well, I hear there'll be more hate speech, there'll be other stuff. It's like, Twitter's already awful. Like, maybe a fresh set of eyes, a guy who's been an incredibly successful

businessman, are we sure it's going to be awful? Are we 100% sure that Twitter will not be better three years from now? Or do you think it somehow gets worse? I don't know. I don't know how it could get worse.

Because I don't think it can get worse. I'm sure that there's something that I'm sure it could get worse. I'm sure that there are things, you know, maybe the return of President Trump or something like that could make it worse. But I'll just be blocking and muting him anyway. So it wouldn't get worse for me necessarily. I think this is just once again has to do with human nature if we go if we go to a steak restaurant right now and uh you get a steak and i get a steak and we eat the steaks and we both get sick from them right oh something's wrong with the steak right if if you we see footage of somebody dragging Somebody dragging the stake on the ground and then bringing it to us. Now we're mad.

Now we're mad. Like now, like, like, like now we're mad. Now we look at the stake and people, what people, what people don't want to do is they know Twitter is a sick stake.

They know that it's tainted meat. They know it because we've seen too many people. We've seen people get doxed on Twitter, canceled on Twitter. They know that it's stake, but they don't want to know for sure. They don't want to see it get... And that's kind of what Elon Musk is for a lot of people. Elon Musk is the proof that this place... Because if they have all of these negative opinions about Elon, now they know. Now they can't eat their steak in peace and just get sick later, which is what we do in society all the time. Now it's there and they have to deal with the fact

that they know that it's tainted every time they're on it. And now, of course, what you do for that is you virtue signal. I don't think that I care that much about Elon Musk having Twitter. I think if you start following corporate interests all the way to the top, you're going to probably find some pretty unseemly people, you know what I mean? Or people that just have to make business decisions and business decisions aren't always nice to the little common man. So I don't like, I get people's frustration and being upset about it. It didn't really move me that much. I'll be honest with you. I thought Twitter needed a fresh set eyes whether those eyes should have been blown to elon musk i don't know i'd probably say no what the fuck can

he do well why would why would why would he not gonna make it worse yeah i mean but what he gonna like you know it's like the only thing i don't like is the if i have an issue with elon musk is you know rich guy gets richer he's a visionary he's this he's that whatever i don't i don't understand the dick ride the dick ride is what bothers me so clubhouse was cool until elon musk came on right yeah when we were all fucking with clubhouse now clubhouse is just to discuss la gang politics but like but but club but clubhouse was cool until Elon Musk got on. When Elon Musk got on Club, the fucking nut-hugging,

the nut-hugging that happened when people were like, why? Whatever it is, you're not going to get the secrets of the universe from Elon Musk on Clubhouse. So the only thing that bothers me

about guys like that is I see people become the most sycophantic sort of, on Clubhouse. So the only thing that bothers me about guys like that is I see people become the most sycophantic sort of just have bitch made ass. And I just hate it. Get off his dick. That's the only thing. That's the only thing that bothers me about a guy like that.

Nothing else. Just, yeah. He's like, just like, let your hero be somebody that separated some conjoined twins or fucking went to Afghanistan and like saved a whole troop of people

or convinced Kyrie Irving to play defense whatever alright well that should be the title of your second book Get Off His Dick the follow up to the New York Times bestseller these chapters about somebody who could get off this guy's

it'd be like 15 people let me tell you why you who could get off this guy's. It'd be like 15 people. Get out of people. Let me tell you why you need to get off his dick and get a life. Stop brown nosing. Like 15. I'm actually Bill. I'm gonna write that proposal tonight. That's good.

All right, Ben, tell us, say the name of your book again. Uh, fat, crazy and tired tales from the trenches of transformation is about a young man from Louisiana who realized

that he had to unlearn some of the most beautiful things about his culture in order to be a healthier, happier person. And I hope that it touches you. It's dedicated to my father and I hope that it made him proud. There you go. Good to see you, man. Good to see you as always, man. All right. That's it for the podcast, As always, produced by Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Steve Cerutti and Dylan Berkey as well. Back on this feed on Thursday night. And don't forget, check out the Rewatchables,

the League of Their Own, and check out the Prestige TV podcast, where if you like the show, Barry, Sean Fantasy, and Bill Hader recap the first episode, I'm going to be on there doing probably winning time a little bit later this week as well. See you on here on Thursday.

Oh, we saw. On the wayside