The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Full-Fledged Jokic-Gasm With Kevin O’Connor and J. Kyle Mann. Plus, Jake Tapper on Post-Trump TV Life.

Episode Date: May 5, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor and J. Kyle Mann to discuss Nikola Jokic's MVP-caliber play, his presence on the court, the Nuggets' playoff hopes without Jamal Murray, the era of positionless basketball, and more (2:50). Then Bill talks with CNN's Jake Tapper about what it was like to cover political news in the past year-plus, covering non-Trump topics on 'The Lead With Jake Tapper,' moderating both Democratic and Republican presidential candidate debates, mega-panel TV shows, his new novel 'The Devil May Dance,' and more (1:02:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Kevin O'Connor and J. Kyle Mann from The Ringer. We're going to break down this Jokic MVP season, why we think he is unquestionably the MVP, but also why it's been a really special season and some of the things we've seen. Some big picture stuff, some deep dive stuff. Really had a lot of fun doing that one.

And then Jake Tapper, who has never been on this podcast before, but we're going to talk about what life is like in 2021 with politics and everything else. That is the pod first. Pearl Jam. Life is like in 2021 with politics and everything else. That is the pod first. Pearl Jam. All right. Kevin O'Connor's here. Kyle Mann is here. It is the Jokic Celebration Podcast. I think his MVP is totally justified.

The odds have finally swung that way. And I like to do this thing near the end of the season talking about how big the MVP trophy should be. Where, you know, you think about like the gold medal in the Olympics, it's the same for every sport. And you would think like the 100-yard dash should just be gigantic. It should be like a bigger gold medal than some of the other ones because it means you're the fastest person in the world.

In the NBA, I always thought it could be like 40 pounds, 20 pounds, 10 pounds, 5 pounds. And then like the one-pounder that you give for the Carl Malone lockout season. Like those were like, ah, we had to give it to somebody. It felt like people were thinking about halfway through this season. Oh shit. Now that I'm beats hurt. Eh, what do we do? Somebody's got to win this. Now I feel like Jokic has not only earned the MVP to me, it's bordering on like a 20 pound MVP season. I don't want to give him the 40 pounder. That's for the greatest of all time. Not saying that,

but it's somewhere between 10 and 20. Kevin, you wrote about him for the ringer this week. Are we underrating how great this season has been for him? For sure. I mean, I would say it should be borderline unanimous. Maybe not quite unanimous, but close to it. Look, the reality is that even when Joel Embiid was considered the favorite, Jokic was neck and neck with him at that point. And now that all these guys have missed games, Jokic has been the only all-star who's played in every single game this season. He's the centerpiece of what everything Denver does on offense.

He's logged more touches than anybody in the league. He logs more points per touch of all high-volume players. He's defended more pick and rolls than anybody else in the entire NBA this season, according to Second Spectrum. Jokic does everything for Denver, and he does it every single night. That's why they're competing for home court advantage. It's a historic offensive season and a very good defensive season. He's the MVP.

There's no question about it. Yeah, everything that Kevin said is absolutely right. I mean, I think what is being maybe not quite appreciated to the extent that it should be is that historically he is blurring and being the torchbearer between this positionalist idea. If you look at the MVPs we've had in the past, we haven't had a true five win the MVP since, I guess, Shaq in 2000. But if you look at the volume of what Jokic is doing, he leads the league in passes thrown this season with almost 5,100, but he has a 919 pass lead on the next person. That's the biggest gap in the top 50. So between spots.

So if you just consider the volume and efficiency of what he's doing, it's unprecedented. Kevin, the positionless basketball thing, we're supposed to vote for all NBA. And Russell and I litigated a little bit on Sunday. He's like, could we put Jokic and Embiid together? I'm against that because it's two centers. I do think Jokic is a center. At the same time, he's a point center. And then defensively, I guess he's a center, but it goes to Kyle's point of like, I don't even know what position this guy is anymore. And this seems to be the sport we're drifting toward. I don't really know what Giannis is. To me, Giannis is the evolutionary shack in so many ways that we've talked about over the years. Embiid is the traditional old school center. Curry's a guard. I don't know if he's necessarily a point guard. Jimmy Butler,

I'm supposed to say is a forward, I guess, for all NBA purposes, but I don't really, I just feel like he's a perimeter guy. but Jokic is carrying the torch of this. What is he? Is it, what is he to you? Is he just a player? Is he a center? How do you consider him? I think it's like Kyle said, he's just blurring the lines.

I mean, when I think about positions, I think more defense, like Jokic is clearly a center on defense. He is the big man, you know, he's defending other bigs. He's the guy defending the screener and pick and roll actions. He's the guy near the paint. He's a quote unquote big on defense, but on offense, he's everything. He's anything. He's whatever Denver needs.

He posts up a ton. He's a lead on the post. He can bring the ball up the floor. He can run off screens. He can run, pick and roll. He can screen the pick and roll. There is no position. And I think, you know, you hear a lot of players nowadays, like Zion says,

he's just a basketball player. You hear a lot of guys that don't define themselves by position. And I do think overall, you look at the league and some of the talents we have guys don't, a big guy doesn't let that stop him from shooting threes off the dribble. And I think like guys like Carl Anthony towns, for example, he's one of the best shooters in the league period like there's no reason to say he's one of the best shooters as a big he's one of the best shooters period just in the same way that

yokich you don't need to qualify it saying oh he's one of the best playmaking bigs no he's just one of the best playmakers period and that's what Jokic really does with the way in which he plays in the offensive end of the floor where he does it all yeah if you look at like I had I had a stat that I pulled specifically for you guys like if you look at and you consider uh heavy load heavy usage and then touch time I went back and compared this season that Jokic is in to Russ in 2016-17 oh god not God. Not to pick on Russ. Okay, so if you consider Russ's usage that year was 41.7. Jokic this year is 29.4. But box plus minus, Jokic is 11.6, and Russ is 11.1.

The kicker here for me is what proves to me that Jokic is a supercomputer is that he does this so quickly. Like the ball moves through him. He doesn't pound or dominate the ball. The big thing here is touch time. Russ did that on a higher usage rate at a lower BPM at nearly double Jokic's touch time. Russ was 5.78 and Jokic is 2.74. Jesus.

When he gets the ball, he makes a great decision almost every single time. And then we talked about the volume of passes. It's just, it's, it's unheard of. Yeah. You think like, I guess point center, but sometimes offensively when he wants his own stuff, he reminds me a lot of Dirk and Zach was the first one that pointed that out a couple of years ago. I'm like, really Dirk? They have totally different bodies. Then you watch it and there's, there's a lot of Dirk-esque stuff with him. Like the way he can spin the way that weird shot he has, where even if there's a guy right in front of him,

it still feels like he can get it off. And it's always a good shot, stuff like that. Bill, he had that shot the other day against the Clippers where he got doubled around the elbow and he just spun into that fade away. Right. But Kevin, you had a good point in your piece.

He's been so good offensively that it is actually, the piece you wrote Monday, it's actually making people think they just have to have bigs on their roster. Between him and Embiid basically, is it realistic to even think you could win four straight

playoff rounds, A, without going through one of those two guys. And then B, if you are going through one of those two guys, you can't play small ball against them. We're going to see Brooklyn try to do it against Philly, but ultimately at least they have DeAndre, at least Claxton skinny, but still at least they have Blake who can be strong, but it's, you know, they have guys to throw at them. If you look at the West, it makes me think this is why the Lakers went, got drumming, right? If they didn't think they could get anything from Marcus all in a playoff series, Harold's way too small for Yoko just, we found out last year. So the German thing was weirdly pivotal for them, but can you expand on that piece? Cause you said some people were telling you that in the league.

Yeah. I mean, I think people look at Yoko in two different ways. They look at him as inspiration. They see the way and the value that a big man can provide on offense by running things through him. And nobody can pass like Jokic, but the idea of like a BAM or DeMonta Sabonis and running offense through them can present challenges and help improve your offense. The flip side of that is that with more bigs like a Jokic, like an Embiid, you don't if you are in a position where you have to double Jokic, you're screwing yourself. I mean, if you're doubling a guy like him who, like Kyle said, has a computer brain who can locate teammates without even looking in their direction and fire an accurate pass, you're in trouble. And like that shows in the numbers, he scores 1.1 points per chance on post-ups when he's single coverage, 1.4 points per chance, which is elite when he's double teamed. So think about that stat 1.4. It's insane.

So it's basically like, don't ever double this person for any circumstances. He's one of those players that wants the great, great ones. There's a threshold of greatness where they want the double. LeBron is like that. He's like, please double me. Luka does that a lot, actually. Jokic absolutely is that way, though. It's like the second it comes, he's ready for it.

He knows if there's a double comes, this is who I'm going to hit. It's insane watching him. And with that in mind, teams like we saw this in the Lakers versus Nuggets game where they put Marc Gasol on him in the second half and single covered a lot of the time because they have to resist doubling. So a lot of teams around the league are like, okay, with Embiid, with Jokic, what if the Wolves get good with Cat? I mean, you have a lot of good bigs in the league.

They're thinking we need to have a big for this potential series. So you've got to like for years we're talking about, well, do you have a guard stopper for Stephen Curry, for Damianian lillard for all these perimeter guys for kairi now for a lot of teams it's like well we also need to have a big 250 pound pound guy to battle against yokich so we don't need a double well you know this goes back to the why i think he's worthy of an mvp i watched ember i just love watching yokich but i watch him and it's like he's reached this an MVP. I watched Denver. I just love watching Jokic, but I watched him and it's like, he's reached this, what do you do point of this run where you're watching and it's almost like a football team. Like when the Patriots would play the chiefs and be like, oh shit,

they have Tyreek Hill out there. They have Kelsey underneath. I kind of have to double team both of them. What do I do? It's a conundrum, right? And what Denver has figured out because of his, I also think he's in better shape, which really helps him, but his ability to stay in the perimeter and just dissect everything and pick it apart. But then if the wrong person is guarding him, his ability to go take that person down low. And as you're saying, like, I guess you have to single him, but if you single him, he's going to score 55% of the time, or he's going to get fouled. And that, what do you do element? That to me is the key to an MVP season where we're watching it

going, fuck, what do you do? How do you stop this? The fact that Kyle, he's doing this without Jamal, we thought Jamal got hurt. It's like MVP is open again. Denver is going to go in a tailspin. I don't want to say they're better without Jamal, but they're, they're certainly, it hasn't set them back at all. And if anything, Jokic has put the team on his back a little bit more, which is an MVP supposed to do, but is it starting to become realistic to you that they could compete and win

a couple of rounds here, even without Jamal Murray? It kind of goes back to what we talked about with Randall I do think that like without Murray Murray gives you a lot more variability and that he can get his own shot and then you know you have him Jokic is the kind of guy that just he's going to hit the players when they are with Jokic their value is going to be different than if they were in another situation. And LeBron's like that too. I always say he's like a motherboard player where you just plug the pieces in and they work. And there aren't many players like that out there. And if you look at the wide variety of the ways

that Jokic gets it done, his shot chart is just green, super, super green everywhere. It's like an oasis. And then you look at like his his top five like modes of offense i think he's like in like the 70 70th percentile or higher in every single one of those and a big thing that you were talking that you said that i think is key about like this next evolutionary step for sinners is the fact that like, if you're big, like Jokic and like, you can wheel into your

own post up from like a face up, like in the past, there wasn't enough space to do that. Jokic has the ball skills to come down, see if he has a mismatch and dribble into it. He doesn't need it dumped to him because you know, he can hit threes. So, and he just, he's just a new type of player. And I've been really curious about like going forward. Um, is he going to be like a, like a, a milestone like template for, for big guys going forward? Like, are guys going to want to play like him in the future? Uh, I just think that he's a whole new type of player on, on that level and, uh, really remarkable. I think that the point you're hitting on, Kyle, I do think he's somebody that players should look to try to be like. I don't think anybody has his natural passing ability. That's just a gift. I interviewed him a couple years ago when I was in Denver and asked him, I mean, is this something you practice?

How do you become such an accurate passer? He's like, I don't know. I've just been doing this my whole life. I look and I put the ball goes where I want it to go. He never likes to explain it. He doesn't like to talk about why he's a genius i think i really think it's one of those things yeah you just can't explain it and i think for denver this is why like bill said can they win a couple series i do think when you have a player like yokich you can but it's not just yokich though at the time when murray got hurt i said that's sad this is the socks they're out but

michael porter jr is averaging 25 points per game and he is making it look easy. And he is doing it in ways that you see superstar scorers do, pulling up with his hand in his face, totally contested with multiple guys around him. He's getting better as a passer, which Nuggets head coach Michael Malone has talked about and remarked about recently. So can they win a series? I mean, a lot of that depends on matchups, Bill, but I think you look at Michael Porter Jr.'s emergence being a 25-point-per-game guy and looking legit, like very sustainable.

He's been good all year long. I think about Denver, and whether they win a series or not, I look at this team as like a major, major, major final threat in the years to come, and maybe even one of the favorites if Michael Porter Jr. continues to improve. Because what he's been doing all year, and especially as of late to me, is probably one of the more under-the-radar storylines of the entire season. Porter looks awesome.

You could feel the Murray absence really for the first time last night in that Laker game. Because the Lakers needed it. They're playing hard. And that's where it's like, ah, Compasso. This is where it kind of backfires here. With the Jokic thing. So, you know, look, he's one of the best passers I've ever seen in my life.

I grew up always hearing about Sabonis. But, you know, we didn't have YouTube until 2006. In the mid 80s and the 90s, the Sabonis that showed up in Portland was 300 pounds. He had a giant pumpkin head, but you could still see some of the passing. Bill Walton was a guy like that. I think Russell has been underrated as a passer, but just from passing big men, the stuff he's doing is already at the highest level. It's with like when people talk about the seventies Knicks, when they talk about magic and birds, stuff like that. It's interesting to look at his stats just compared to bird. If you look at birds, 84, 85, 86, 87. Just the combination of those four years. He was 27, 10, and 7.

Jokic this year is 26, 11, and 9. Bird was 51, 40, 89 for his shooting splits. Jokic is basically 56, 41, 86. And this is the one that really reminds me of Bird because obviously Bird was an incredible passer. Bird was a 27.6 usage. And so, and Magic was always in the mid twenties too. And that was one of the reasons guys love playing with those guys because the ball moved around. Even when they had it, they got rid of it.

They were very unselfish. They were always trying to get other guys going. Jokic's usage is 28.9, which you alluded to earlier, Kyle. He's just really fun to play with. And we've had different versions of the MVP over the year, Westbrook being kind of the most insufferable version of it, 2017. But those hard and rocket teams were no picnic. Over and over again, it's like your main guy, what we're seeing with Luka now in Dallas, it's like, everything's got to run through me, guys. You're going to stand there. You're going to stand there. Boston's doing the kind of worst version of it

with Tatum and Brown, where it's like, these two guys are going to score 50 points. You stand here. You stand here. You stand here. With Jokic, that's not how it goes. And I think the Porter piece of this

will be the most fun thing to watch of all because I do think he makes Porter better. So, Kyle, when we talk about the usage and all that stuff and all the numbers you crunched, I think that makes him more of a unicorn than anything. The fact that in this version of the NBA, where every team wants to have the guy who dominates the ball in some way,

he doesn't need to dominate the ball. And to me, you can build around whatever team you want if your best guy is wired that way. Yeah. And you were talking about Byrd. And I think a common denominator is that, like, you talk about floor raisers. I think the big thing, the common denominator among all those guys is that, like, they elevate the effort of the people around them because they reward it. Like, you're talking about Byrd.

Byrd, if if bird had played today yeah i mean he could have played the luca you know heavy volume pick and roll style spread it out drive he was a lot faster than i think people give him credit for it like or in the early 80s i went back and watched some of those like for the historical things i did in the summer that's just a little side note bird was actually deceptively fast but he was like the big thing was like you know he was doing a lot of those like pin downs and like he would catch it in the middle of the floor and and had people like wrestling him to the ground basically but making those same types of like

i catch it i make a quick decisions and and that sort of like photo memory that like bird had of like he would take a picture sort of of the play before he would make the play. I feel like Jokic operates in that same real-time kind of flow. With Porter, Porter and Jokic together are an incredible marriage in the same way that Murray and Jokic are because Porter and Murray both lean scoring heavily. And that's a big thing. I think that's one of the big reasons that he elevates him. But I think another thing, too, is it's really wild that we are living in a time.

Maybe it's just a case of basketball is just going in this linear way of where we're just getting better every time we iterate. But we got the best passing center. Sorry to qualify it with center. I know you said that earlier, KOC. But we had the best shooter ever playing right now, arguably the best player ever, depending on who you ask, with LeBron. The best driving big guy ever in Giannis.

We have the best dribble shooting forward ever, I think, in Kevin Durant. It's just an amazing time of, you know, Jokic is a unicorn in a time of unicorns. So he's winning an MVP in that case. Anything to add to that one, Kev? No, I mean, I'm 100% with Kyle. And I think that's sort of a reflection of the state of the game with the amount of spacing that is provided for these immense talents to do what they do. And I think the NBA right now, a lot of people say, oh, nobody's playing defense. I mean, it's harder than ever to play defense right now because of the level of talent in the game and because of the way offenses play in the NBA. So, I mean, I agree

completely with you, Kyle. I do think players continue to build and build and build over what past generations did. And also just the way the way the way teams play now has helped facilitate that talent to reach an even higher level. You know, going back to the Bird thing, because he did this first and then Magic copied it and it became one of the many reasons why that 87, 88, 89, 90 Lakers just kind of moved toward Magic. Bird, that 86 team, which I still feel like is the most dominant team I've ever seen. They were doing this geometry thing where they would have Bird and McHale on one side. And if they posted up McHale and Bird was over on the right side,

you basically had to decide at that point what to do. A lot like with Jokic, right? McHale was a high 50s. He shot 60%, I think, in the 87 season. You kind of had to double him. But if you doubled him with Bird's guy, then Bird was wide open. You couldn't do that. So what teams started doing was just jumping off of Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge and basically being like, all right, we're just going to give you 18 footers. If you make them, you make them.

So then the Celtics flipped it and they put Bird down there where he would have the same impact of, of McHale as, as like a low post guy, but then also could hit all the cutters. And when they, there was this moment where they kind of unlocked it. And if you go back and watch the 86 finals, I, I'm, I'm like a parody of myself talking about the 86 Celtics, but you go back and watch the 86 finals.

Bird was at the height of his powers of, this was like this toy he had where he's like, all right, everybody back off. I'm going to post, I'm going to take my time. I'm going to back up Rodney McCray. And you can kind of see the rockets like, what do we do? What do we do? And if they sent the second person over, he just found the guy immediately. If they sent the guy too late, Bird would just split both of them and score. And it was that, what do we do zone that that team, I thought, hit really hard. My point is, I'm seeing that with Denver. And I think Jokic, what makes him so cool as an offensive, just elite guy,

Dirk had that one spot, right? Top of, basically top of the key. And as he got older, he settled in that whole area and he had this weird, funky high post game and they would space it perfectly. They'd have three point shooters everywhere and he would have the paint open and he just kind of operated down there, right? Everybody's got their spot. LeBron has figured out a couple of different spots over the years. Jokic has two spots. And for me, it's like, if you're an offensive player and you're completely elite in two separate parts of a half court,

I don't know what you do. And is there anybody who has two spots like that right now? Because I feel like everybody else has one spot, but he has, it's almost like he has two apartments in the same apartment building or something that he can just kind of go up and down in depending where he wants to live. I mean, I'm thinking to myself, as you say that, does he really only have two spots? I mean, I watch Jokic. I feel like everywhere on the court is a spot for him. Yeah, I was thinking more half court where it's like he could do the 24 feet away thing,

but can also go down and do his business. And they're basically getting the same result either way, no matter where he is, 24 feet away thing, but can also go down and do his business. Oh, yeah. And they're basically getting the same result either way, no matter where he is, 24 feet. I mean, it's, I mean, like,

is there another elite post-scorer who can also shoot above 40% from three? I don't think so, because Embiid, like, is shooting better this year. Towns is not an elite

post-scorer. He's a good post-scorer. You don't really have anybody who's elite at both. I mean, I guess, technically, Durant. Durant could if he posted If he wants to, yeah. Durant, when score you don't really have anybody who's a lead at both i mean i guess i technically durant durant could if he posts if he wants it yeah when he he kind of the he he's he parcels it out but

he can go down there and get points when he wants durant's iso repertoire is yeah i mean it's it's pretty it's pretty broad and i i was gonna go ahead kev did you have something no no no i mean i just on the quick on the durant note is that maybe the next step for some of those guys? Like if you have a perimeter-based guy, can you maybe add more post-ups to their game in order to do some of the stuff that Denver does with Jokic? I wonder if maybe that's part of where the influence might come from. But the difference, though, is the passing is just out of control.

I feel like there's two guys who could pass like that out of the low post. LeBron, who we've seen him do it. I don't think he's... I really think Jokic might be one of the three or four best passers ever. I don't know if LeBron is one of the best three or four ever, but he certainly has the gene. And then

the other one is Luka. And as I think about how Luka's going to evolve, we all think three-point shooting would be one, right? If he can get to 43%, 44% pretty consistently. But then the low post piece, because he's big. He's fucking a handful. And there's ways that could go with it from a passing standpoint. I feel like he's years away from that.

You think like LeBron didn't even really go down there until 2013. Yeah. And now that's such a huge asset for him. I love when guys add a post game. I still, that's an old school thing. I really enjoy when guys do that, but you were, you were hitting on something with, um, the, what do we do zone? Like, I think like the top level, and I kind of am just hammering on, the passing is the thing that separates these guys. The play make, the scoring flip to passing, but also just the awareness of those two things.

You were talking about what do you do with Bird because he's calculating the game in real time. I always picture a literal level, like a construction level, and the bubbles in the dead center. There aren't many players that can keep it there there are guys that like want to score so badly that like you know you can bait them into taking bad shots you know you can there are a lot of ways that you can do that but like Jokic if you just watch him he has the entire defense in jail because because he you know he knows that he can score in all these different ways like we just described

all three levels you know he's like a piggy roll guy he can play short roll he can score in all these different ways, like we just described, all three levels. He's like a piggy roll guy. He can play short roll. He can shoot threes. He can post. And then, but, yeah, he can flip it into this insane passing. But I also think that you have to kind of say that, like what Kevin was saying,

that the spread out nature of the game is a thing that he was in the position to capitalize on, unlike the centers of the past is is a thing that he was in the position to capitalize on unlike the centers of the past and and he just did like i i think if like sabonis had played today i don't know i just feel like you always have to kind of put those things it's sort of like the thing where they'll be like bob koozie sucks it's like well no bob koozie's not as good as kairi but you have to put things in the order that they happen because who knows if like the evolution of the game would have happened the same way if Tiny Archibald didn't bring his thing to the NBA

and people built on it. So it's like they're both valuable, but Jokic, I think the thing you have to applaud Jokic for is just that he was in the position to expand this game, and he's only 25 years old. That's the thing. And the way that he plays, he could do this for a while longer.

And Kyle, on that same note about the balance, like he's very level. He used to lean too much towards the scoring. There are so many nights Nuggets fans are frustrated. He take only four, five, six shots. And now he just routinely takes 20 shots per game because Jokic, the unselfishness for him earlier in his career that manifested as I need a pass, pass, pass for my teammates. Now, in order for the Nuggets to consistently win games at the level that they are, he understands that he needs to be the scorer, too, on top

of everything else. And the way in which he does it is, I mean, like Bill said, it's bird-esque, just that level of balance he has. I want to talk about flaws, but let's take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too.

You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. So when you talk about like a truly great offensive player, which I think Jokic is, and you're in, especially in a playoff series, you're seeing somebody seven times in two weeks, something like that. You try to use certain things against them, right? Like with Kobe. And I think Kobe was easier to stop than a lot of these guys. You could get him to settle for threes. I'm talking easier to stop than the greatest of all time guys. You could get him to settle for threes. I'm talking easier stop than the greatest of all time, guys. You look at what the 2004 Pistons did to him. They made him settle for threes. They used the hero complex thing against him. It was the same thing the 08 Celtics did against him. Same thing the 2010 Celtics almost successfully did in game seven against him. Basically,

use Kobe's ego against him. Send double teams at him in games when he wants to be the hero and kind of force him to make the right basketball play. And eventually he would get there, but he would have this, you know, whole Rocky process. Um, LeBron is great as he's been throughout his career. I still feel like there's a part of teams that are just like, Hey, if he wants to shoot 24 footers, great. Go ahead. Cause that means you're not near the basket. That means you're not driving that you're getting a call every time you go to the basket. I still feel that now with Laker games. Like I think teams are delighted when he shoots 24 footers, he's somewhere between 35 and 40%, uh, from three

dependent thing. I think that probably changes a little bit with the hand in his face. What is the flaw of Jokic's game that you guys see that Denver, that could be used against Denver? Because he's got to have one. So what is it? I think it was hinted at in the Lakers game where they just didn't double him at all. They took

away passing options. They stayed close to home on everybody who was behind the arc, everybody else who was on the court with Jokic and tried to make him a scorer and i don't know if i'd call it a weakness necessarily shooting 50 on dribble jumpers like it's not a negative by any means but i do think what you'll see teams try to do is say okay create a shot for yourself and it might be the timing of the help that comes over to maybe try to prevent a layup or whatever of him getting into the paint.

But trying to make him into a scorer against a tough defender is probably the solution because you don't want him passing the ball. But I don't know if I'd call that a weakness necessarily. He's a complete offensive player. That is a weakness, okay, I see, because, well, I mean, it that a weakness necessarily. He's a complete offensive player. That is a weakness, OKC, because, well, I mean, it's a subtle weakness. But remember the 05 Suns-Spurs series when the Spurs used Nash's selflessness against them

and they were just like, go ahead, score 40 points a game. We're taking out everyone else. You're not getting 15 assists in any of these games. And Nash put up huge stats, but it really hurt his team because they just covered everybody. And they kind of exposed this whole, you know, there, there was basically a flaw in the machine that it's like, and Nash doesn't want to play that way. And when I did the book of basketball thing with him, when we,

when I made him watch that Oh seven playoff game. And he was just like, I should have shot more threes. I don't know what I was doing. I was a 40 plus percent three point shooter. Why didn't I take 11 a game? Which I think he knows now. It does feel like Kyle that Jokic has realized like, oh shit, I should shoot more. Yeah. I think, I think it's a combination of what you're talking about and what we were saying before. It's like you do need to have that balance for the first three and a half quarters. But then you also do need to be, if you're going to be the best player on a title team, you've got to have that gear of like, I can go and just destroy you on this level. Like, if you're going to dare me to do this, you know, it's interesting in the ways that teams have gone at him i mean in the

playoffs teams start experimenting with like the types of doubles where the doubles come from when they come i mean it's very sophisticated i mean we don't teams reserve that stuff for the playoffs and with yokich i mean i and we've seen this too with like best players through the years you're talking about there's always it never fails there always is like a little dash of like, let's either beat the shit out of this guy. You can't do that as much anymore, but or let's irritate the shit out of this guy. And we did see some of that last year with Dwight.

I mean, Dwight was just all up in his space, like throughout that series. I mean, I guess the other like reasonable segue here is that like the defense. And I mean, it's been you you do that on on the offensive end you dare him to score you know have big outputs over the course of a series or or you and then you go at him on the defensive end too i mean teams are attacking him though this year it's like i said earlier he's defending more pick and rolls than anybody in the nba this

entire season jesus and he's held his own. I mean, he's not a lockdown paint protector by any means. He's no Rudy Gobert. He's not a Joel Embiid on defense, but he's good. I mean, he's very good positionally. He communicates. He's an elite rebounder. I do think, you know, to your point, Kyle, that maybe you attack him even more on defense.

You ramp it up even to another level to try to wear him out, try to get him frustrated. Because sometimes Jokic can, you know. We've seen him have some of those outbursts here and there through the years. Not so much recently, though he had one a couple weeks ago. He has some great outbursts, man. He does. I love it. It's part of what makes him so lovable.

But with Jokic, I think that's part of what has gone underrated with his season. He used to be a bad defender. He's become an above average or good defender. And that is an aspect of his game, which is why I feel comfortable saying he should be a near unanimous MVP. It's not like he's a negative on that end of the floor. He's pretty good. Yeah, it's the roughing up thing. There's only a couple teams in the West that can do it.

But I can't, I'm just thinking about how it goes series by series, right? Like if they played Phoenix in a series, I think Chris Paul would figure out a bunch of different ways to fuck with them. You know, especially on screens and stuff,

he would be given elbows and punches, stuff like that. The Lakers are the tough matchup for him. And ironically, that's the team they probably have to go through. I would say Davis is the perfect guy to defend him.

I'm not saying he's a Jokic stopper by any means, but I thought the Lakers gave them a lot of trouble last year. You talked about Dwight kind of fucking with him and messing him and hitting him. And he always seemed like he was taking an inadvertent elbow to the face, getting popped in the nose, going up for for rebound, just getting clobbered. So you have that piece. And then, you know, these longer athletic guys who can handle him one-on-one

fortunately for him, how many are there? There's Davis. Is there anyone else like DeAndre Ayton do that in a series? Probably not. Marcuser sold at a pretty good job. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as good as you can hope to do at least. So you want like the 300 pound heavy savvy veteran would be the other way to go. You got to give the guys that can like just accumulate,

like you were talking about with Chris Paul, like they can just accumulate those little shots throughout the game and you target his frustration. I mean, I'm sure teams talk about this. I mean, he's done it in recent years, but like, yeah, you just target him in that frustration. I mean, I'm sure teams talk about this. I mean, he's done it in recent years, but like, yeah, you just target him in that way.

I mean, Gasol is still positionally savvy enough to bother him in that sense, I think. Well, they're going to be either a top three or a top four seed. Right now, we're taping this. It is Tuesday, one o'clock. They're 43-22. Clippers are 43-22.

So they're not a free-falling Clippers team, but as usual with them, anytime you start feeling half-decent about the Clippers, all of a sudden they lose three in a row and they look terrible. The Gobert matchup has been a really fun one with Jokic over the years. And that's a team, if they're a four seed,

they could absolutely see Utah in round two I feel like he wins the Utah matchup against Gobert am I wrong to think that Kevin I don't think you're wrong to think that it's just a matter of what Denver actually win the series even if Jokic wins the matchup Utah's freaking good man the backcourt thing is tough yeah

from a you know unfortunately the Murray thing I do think it rears its ugly head in a seven game series I think when you're just playing somebody once

it's a little different but you're going seven times I don't know but maybe I agree I don't know would Jokic have to be like

30, 15 and seven for the first two rounds to advance to the West Finals to play that and Porter would have to be a 20 the two of them would have to be at 20. The two of them would have to be

somewhere between, I would say, 53, 55 points a game, realistically. Yeah. Something like that. I mean, you mentioned Jamal Murray. That'll be what causes their demise

in the postseason. Eventually. Unless Michael Porter Jr. goes from running, like, two pick and rolls per game and three isolations per game to 10 to 15 total. And he's still dominant.

Like he's a loot and a smaller usage of doing those things. If he can do that with a higher usage, that changes everything for Denver. So that's the variable I would look at with Denver. But I agree with you that Jamal Murray not having him, that'll hurt this year. But in the future, it's not a hot take, but it's that'll hurt this year. But in the future, it's not a hot take, but it's not.

It's unfortunately true. But in the future, like once you get Jamal Murray back, you get another year of Aaron Gordon. You make additions through the draft, free agency through trades. This team, it could entering the 2022 playoffs. It could be the favorites with Michael Porter Jr. getting as good as he is. I mean, we'll talk about it on NBA University this week, I'm sure, Kyle. Well, I have a depressing question for both of you guys relating to NBA University. Okay.

I'm not sure if you guys are aware of this, but Jokic is not American. What? Is it possible for the way American basketball is set up for people 20 and under and the whole AAU system and the whole hero ball spread out, shoot 12 threes, just the way we play basketball. And you could go watch any eighth grade and up game on YouTube, wherever. Just watch the way we play basketball. Is it possible for us to ever produce a yokage

or a magic or a bird or anybody who sees the court that way when we're rewarding these specific things that basically are directly opposed to that? What do you think, Kyle? That's a really good question. I mean, we've seen yeah it's interesting because i mean harden was american he plays that in that way he has that same kind of ability i don't know i don't know if that is that's a nature nurture thing that i'm not

totally sure i guess it really depends on where kade cunningham is a guy coming up that has that same type of like playmaking score scoring balance but in terms of like serbia is just a really interesting case study for like a very contained basketball culture and the way that they grow players like a lot of their guys that reach the highest level kind of have these kind of common traits of of playing this way um is it possible for the american game to create a Jokic? I don't know if those players are necessarily created or if it was just a really good fortuitous situation of the Serbian basketball culture cultivated him

in a way that was just sort of right place, right time. I mean, I don't know. What do you think, Kelsey? I mean, I think it's like we talked about earlier with yokich this is just something he has he just has the ability to put the ball wherever he wants it to and that is i mean something that can be you know nurtured with the way you were raised and the culture that you're part of but it's also just nature in the sense that he is truly an outlier you know he his passing accuracy is like tom brady level it is the

best quarterbacks it is greg maddox it is the best pitchers like he is just one of those guys who can just put the ball wherever he wants to no matter where he's born and i think with the american style versus the overseas style we definitely reward and care about things that often are on the box score you know points dunks big highlight plays and not the stuff that goes beyond the box score like you know like being in the right position making the extra pass and all that um but i think it's like you said kyle we still have some of those guys like kade cunningham is a pass first player i think a lot of it depends on just what your best skills are and with kade we have that but i don't know if we'll ever find a yokich for many years to come because he's such an outlier i think the emulation

thing is the key part like i was talking about earlier because these players come along and they really really affect how players after them play like i really think that like jordan came in and we had a whole generation of six foot six guys who wanted to carry a big usage rate and shoot in the slot and things like that. And then, I don't know, we'll see. We're just getting to this cycle of who is going to come along that's going to want to play like Jokic? Are they going to be in the position to play like Jokic? I don't know.

He's so special that I hesitate to say that it's going to happen again. But, you know, you would hesitate to say, is there going to be another player like Bird? Is there going to be another player like Sabonis? And it takes some time, but it happens. But I don't know. That's a good question. Yeah, you even think like

the stuff Harden was doing this year, I didn't think he had in him. I just thought he had developed so many bad habits in Houston with the way they had that offense that that was just the way he had to play from that point on. And there was real ingenuity in some of those Brooklyn games this year. I guess from an

American basketball player standpoint, I would say Harden and LeBron are probably have the most ingenuity, creativity to the way they see stuff. But those guys, you know, Harden came into the league in what, 2008? LeBron came into the league in 2003? Yeah. So who's next? Who are the next guys? I just worry that this next generation, now I sound like a super old guy, but if I'm a 14-year-old player

and I can do everything in basketball, who am I going to emulate? I'm going to emulate Steph Curry and Dame Lillard, and I'm going to try to learn Luca's drop back step. And what I'm not going to do is go on YouTube and watch old clips of Kenny Anderson at Georgia Tech or Steve Nash on the 2006 Suns. I'm going to think about three-point shooting. And that's what I'm going to practice. That's how I'm going to play. And when I'm on a fast break, I'm going to run to the corner because that's where I get the ball. I'm not going to think about what to do in a three on two. And I really worry about this stuff

because I think we're creating an assembly line of players with the same attributes. And which is why it seems like a lot of the foreign players are the most interesting guys we have now. Giannis, Embiid, Luka, Jokic, where they're all pretty distinct. Even Porzingis. I mean, he's unique just because of his height. But I just hope we're not going to raise a generation of people that all just play the same way. That's why Jalen Suggs, I'm really rooting for him.

I think he's different. You know, I think he's, there's a selflessness to him that I'm not sure all these guys have now he's different. You know, I think he's, there's a selflessness to him that I'm not sure all these guys have now. Am I being too depressing, KOC? No, I don't think so. I mean, you didn't mention Rudy Gobert. I'd add him onto that too.

And your favorite guy, I didn't mention either. Poku. Poku too? Poku has an American style though. Poku is where Where the American influence goes wrong I think a good

A good case like Example of this is the one person You didn't mention was Lamello And Lamello has this Lamello has this skill set And I've talked about this a lot But his Sort of like test

Experiment like if you look at his case, it was very unique because he was pulled out of the system and allowed to experiment at this crazy level, unbothered for a long time. He didn't play with the same teams. He was always just kind of to the side of the American pipeline. And he developed these skills that were really unique. Yeah. I think basketball is kind of homogenous right now, especially with, especially with like trainer culture. We, we do have a problem with, and I think it's going to get better because it's getting addressed, but we do have a problem with players entering the higher levels of basketball, spending too much time. Now I'm going to sound like an old man, spending too much time. Now I'm going to sound like an old man. Spending too much time playing workout basketball

as opposed to five on five, learning feel, creativity, things like that. Because players play the same way. Like they literally mimic down to the detail. Well, and then you think about if you're a young guy,

like Nesmith to me, we haven't talked to Nesmith research. It's KOC. That's a whole separate. It's a borderline emergency podcast. We may have to go in locker room after a Celtic game. But I watch how they're using Neesmith,

who just the light bulb went on two weeks ago. And he's doing all this hustle stuff. He's shooting threes. He's getting offensive rebounds. And yet on offense, he just runs to the left corner because that's how the Celtics play. And if you watch every NBA team, basically most of their perimeter guys just run to the left corner because that's how the Celtics play. And if you watch every NBA team, basically most of their perimeter guys just run to one of the two corners and

they stand there and they don't do that much. And it's like, how are we going to develop this dude? We're not putting the ball in his hands. We're not running pick and rolls with him. He's, we're not running motion with him. It's, this is just what he does. And I just think about somebody like that, who I really do think is talented. How is he going to evolve? Unless like Jalen Brown gets hurt and he gets the Jalen Brown, 18 shots and all the stuff that comes with that. That's, that's my fear. I mean, how is that any different though, than like PJ Brown spotting up from 12 feet in the

baseline or from the elbow? I mean, like have always spotted up just from mid-range. Now they're spotting up from behind the arc. There's less movement than ever, though, you have to admit, with most of these teams. For some teams, yeah. For some teams, for sure, there's less movement, but I don't think... It's not like every team has become the Houston Rockets with James Harden

and the Maury Ball Rockets. Teams are shooting more and more and more and more threes, which I thought thought I still think that Kurt Goldsberry books sprawl ball that when we look back at that years from now, we'll look ahead of its time in terms of how the NBA needs to be proactive with rule changes to make the game

aesthetically beautiful, not reactive. And I do think there will be a point with the three point shot that maybe change will be necessary, which would influence the way teams play and the way train trainers train players the way players practice as they're growing up but i don't i don't think we're at that point yet teams get threes in so many different ways and so many different offensive systems it's not just all high pick and roll i mean i personally love the way the game looks right now but i do think there it will reach a point someday where some rule changes are going to be needed

to change the way teams play. I like it. I don't love it. I think these teams are 2-3 happy, and I know I sound like an old guy, but that's one of the reasons why I want to do an hour on Jokic because I just think the way Denver plays is really important. The same way I used to feel like the early 2000 Kings were just really important because they were so different than what everyone else was doing. Then it became the mid 2000 sun, same thing. I was like, thank God we have these guys. And, you know, I think the league, we have more talented players than ever. I just wish we had more styles. Denver to me is just a unicorn team. You know, the fact that somebody, if Porter was on like the Cleveland Cavaliers, we know how it would go,

right? They would bring it up. They would spread out. He would go one-on-one, try to beat people. And you know, he'd shoot 24 times a game. I don't know if that would be the best way for his career to evolve. Kyle, you mentioned LaMelo. I'm really glad you did because he should have come up sooner as we were talking about that. But you're right. Really unique experience. The way he grew up, the way he got pulled out

and went international and was allowed to make mistakes obviously was helpful. I guess my question though is he does seem like he has real social media currency with some of the passing and the unselfishness. And like his highlight passes have become no different than like a Miles Bridges dunk. So maybe that maybe LaMelo will be the one combined with Jokic that causes some, I don't know,

nine-year-old to be like, I'm on the playground today. I want to be like these guys. I'm not going to be Dame Lillard shooting 28 footers. I'm going to try to set up my teammates and I'm on the playground today. I want to be like these guys. I'm not going to be Dame Lillard shooting 28 footers. I'm going to try to set up my teammates and I'm going to throw no looks. And like, is that possible? Or those are two best hopes. He has an, he has a style that is very palatable and fun.

I think like, and I think that, I don't know if you look at like, you know, Steve, we have had examples of players with that passing gene have an impact on today's game. Like Steve Nash really influenced Trey Young, you know, and as much as much crap as Trey Young gets. He but Trey Young's a really good passer.

I wish he passed more and shot less. Like if I could take the seesaw, I would seesaw way more toward the unselfishness than the passing but he is who he is he's an incredible passer but yeah i mean i it's hard to predict i mean it's hard to know but i mean he's yeah lamella ball has a massive massive amount of cred credibility with with these with the kids these kids coming up but i think that like you know it's it's just hard to it's hard to know it's hard to really recreate what happened with him like because with lamello because the comparison that i've made a bunch is that like the only other player that i could find that had a really similar experiment of like my dad is

controlling my whole playing context my whole development was pistol pete and we've seen and we've seen the historical kind of impact that he had so I guess if that's any indicator yeah I mean people love passing yeah so hopefully hopefully that kind of impact the good news is KOC is the most optimistic I've seen him so at least if we have optimistic KOC I'm happy um I don't know if he's up to as optimistic about Neesmith are you optimistic about Neesmith yeah Neesmith's fine good role? Yeah, Neesmith's fine. Good role player. You're not in. It's okay for him to be running off screens

and hand off spill. That's fine. It's spotting up from three. Has he been in the G League much this year? If you're trying to win in the short term, sometimes that's the answer. You don't have the luxury to let him get the reps. The Spurs did that with Kelton Johnson.

Or you could be really bad and develop players at the same time. Like, like poku needed to settle down and and they don't mind let it let it fly you know it'd be wild it still needs it yeah koc would never do a nice he only does videos on the void about uh lottery picks that he has to defend from years pat from past he's done who have you done did you? You haven't done Mo Bamba yet. I wasn't going there. We did Killian Hayes. We did Poku.

And someday, Bill, we will do a Mo Bamba video. 22 points last night. Is that true? I'm going to buy your Mo Bamba stock. Give me the 7'10 wingspan guy who's 22 years old. I'm all in on Mo Bamba.

Go buy his rookie cards. I saw Hampton. I haven't really, I gotta admit, I haven't watched a lot of magic. I did see the crunch time where Cole Anthony won the game, but Hampton looks like he's a keeper. And I don't know that trade.

I think that trade, I like when trades help both teams is ideally why you want to make a keeper. And I don't know that trade. I think that trade, I like when trades help both teams is ideally why you want to make a trade, but I do like some of those stuff Orlando's done. You think that bulls trade, um, where the bulls might not make the playoffs. And I mean, that could be like the seventh pick in the draft. Right. And, and actually with the way they do the lottery ads, I guess then then chicago would keep it um but that's a tough trade and we all like that trade right we all like the vucevic trade for chicago yeah i mean i like it for both yeah they're not gonna make the playing game

we were both pretty initially high on it weren't we koc i think we were waiting because vucevic hadn't like vucevic hadn't started to really shoot it yet we were like this has like great upside and then it was kind of interesting to just watch collective bull social media go into a total tailspin panic. But with RJ Hampton, he's an interesting case because he was near the top of his class all the way through. And then when he got to the NBL, we started to do the nitpicky thing. And we had the extra long draft process, so we got really nitpicky.

He always had high defensive upside. I think it's just like the shooting seems like it has more growth plate on it than we thought before, which I mean, that was a good pickup for sure. For the, for the magic we're going to go. But before we go,

quick question about the draft, because we're covering on ringer university, which is part of the ringer NBA show. Is it a top five or a top six for you guys? Or is it a top five or a top six for you guys or is it a top two and then a next level three slash four how do you have it i'd say the latter right there a top two then a three slash four and after that you know there's some questions is it a top five kuminga some people love him some people aren't as high on him um but i'd say very clearly a top two. And then some other good players, Suggs and Green.

And then after that, kind of flattens out. So you have Cunningham and Mobley are now, it's become like what happened in the NFL draft where it was Lawrence and Wilson, and then it dropped a notch, and then it was like free for all at three. Okay. Same for you, Kyle? Yeah, I agree with you.

Yeah. I mean, I think those two guys at the top are like either one of these guys could be like a piece that could turn us into, let's say, like Minnesota. I got either one of those guys. It could really, really change the direction of where they go because they're both unselfish players who give you high, like Cade's a really good team defender, really smart. You know, he can play multiple roles. There are so many teams that he could fit on in that range that like he would he would plug right in and change what's going on for them but yeah i'd say i go to top five top six i like scotty barnes more that's been my like crusade the last week i like him more than i like cominga i'm really high on him i like him a lot i

also like zaire williams a lot too i may live regret that one, but he's another guy that I think. Where's, where's Mitchell's brother these days in the rankings? It's like six to 10 range. Davion Mitchell. I believe I have him six or seven on my board right now. A lot of people have him top 10 at the moment. Yeah. I'm all in on that too. In case you're wondering.

He's good. My kind of guy. Yeah. Like that to me is like, there's no question he will be a productive NBA player. I haven't done all my studying yet. I really like Mobley though.

I like, I just, to me, that's a can't miss. Mobley? Passer. Better passer than the number show at USC. I want to see a team unlock that. Yeah, I like that guy.

All right. Kevin O'Connor, we can rejoin the Ringer and we can check you out on the mismatch. And then, oh, Ringer U's on, is it on mismatch or Ringer NBA show? I'm so confused. Ringer NBA University on the Ringer NBA show. Yeah, yeah.

We have so many positive views. Come in, watch his awesome videos and you can hear him on the Ringer NBA show as well. Final question, Jokic, so if you had to say right now, 10 pound MVP or 20 pound MVP? What was the higher or the highest one you had? 40 pounds? Highest is 40.

He's not eligible for 40. Okay. So 20 pounds. Who are the 40 pound MVPs? Like, give me like, who is the heaviest MVPs ever? The 40 MVP is like, you know, Bird in 86, Shaq in 2000, LeBron 2013.

Steph 16? Yeah, Steph 16. OG seasons from all-time guys. There's no Jordan in there? There's no Jordan 93 kind of 92? The Jordan one's tough because you could basically make a case for like six 40-pound MVPs for him.

But yeah, I mean, basically every time he won, it's a 40-pound MVP, but he should have won like eight. So yeah, I'd say he's 40-pound across the board. So what do you have, Kyle? You have 10-pound or 20? It's a pretty special MVP. I mean, we listed off all the historical things that he's doing. And I think if you take it into the broader context, man, I would want to lean towards the 20. I mean, it's pretty good, man.

I mean, it's pretty special. So can I go 15, 18 pounds? I'm going to say, I'm saying 10. I think if they get the three seed, not having Murray for the last third of the season, basically your last fourth of the season, it's inching toward 20 for me. It's the 20. It's staring right at us in the face. The only player who's played every game this season that was an all-star, played more minutes than everybody but Julius Randle in a year.

So many players have been hurt out with health and safety protocols, so many variables this season. And he's been the one steady guy all year long, dominating every single night. He's a 20 pound MVP. Awesome. All right. KOC Kyle. Good to see you guys.

All right. I knew there'd be some sort of Philly gimmick with our next gimmick. This is what I wear to work. This is what, honestly, I thought I'm just glad he didn't do some Eagles bullshit. Cause I didn't want to have to get into that right away with you. Jake Tapper is here.

He's got the Eagles face mask. You called the Patriots cheaters like three years ago. I'm going to let that slide. I think we can get past it. You're pro Goodell, in my opinion, when you say they're cheaters. So you're just aligning with him. That's fine. But it's nice to have you on, Eddie.

You know, I've always been trained to be kind to my hosts. So I will just say thank you. It's nice to be here. And as I told you before we started, I've been an admirer of your work and your entrepreneurship and the force of nature that you are for quite some time. So it's nice to meet you, even if it's just virtually. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it.

You're a Philly guy. I'm a Boston guy. So somehow we get along. The Super Bowl, there's going to be some Sixers, Celtics, ass-kickings probably headed for the Boston way, I would say, pretty soon. Did you ever think about veering toward the sports side or you always knew you were going to be in the other direction? Other direction. And to be honest, I float in and out of following teams.

And one of the great regrets of my life is I was so intensely covering the 2008 presidential race because I was on the road covering Obama that I didn't catch the Phillies winning another World Series. I mean, I watched the World Series, but I didn't really, it wasn't really part of my, I didn't follow it. I don't even know if the MLB app was around at the time. Probably not. But now that I have the MLB app, it's much more part of my life. Yeah, it's funny. The technology has gotten so good.

I was at a soccer tournament with my daughter in Vegas the night of the Oscars. And we just put the Oscars on the dashboard on my phone. I just hooked up to the DirecTV app. I wasn't looking at it, but you didn't really have to look at it. You could just listen to it. But I was thinking like, this is nuts.

I'm watching the Oscars in my car as we're driving on the 15th. But with sports, it's like a game changer. You would have had the 08 Phillies on the road like wherever you went, basically. Wherever I went, it would have been so great. And thankfully, NFL, what's it called? Season ticket?

Whatever that is, I have that. So I was able to really, the last few years, leading up to the 2017 Super Bowl, I was able to really get into the team. Although, almost the entire team is gone now for whatever reason. I know. That's the state of football.

You basically, you keep like two guys and then everybody else just disappears two, three years. It's crazy. Like every one of, I mean, I don't even know what's going to happen to Ertz.

Like every one of the great, you know, we lost. I mean, you'd think that we'd have one of the great you know we lost i mean you'd think that we'd have one of our quarterbacks at this point one of them i mean i was kind of a foals guys foals guy uh although i kept it quiet because everybody i'm i'm unsophisticated when it comes to sports and so for me it was just like well foals is the one that led us to the super bowl if we have to pick if they're not willing to pay both of them, I mean, we should probably stick with the one that brought us to the dance.

But I kind of kept it quiet because it just seems so stupid because Carson was the natural athlete and blah, blah, blah. Now we got nothing. I mean, not that we have nothing, but now we have neither of them. Right. Yeah, we're kind of mirror images of each other because I am a kind of casual to, depending on what's going on in the world, more than casual news and politics person. But then obviously sports, sports, sports election and then through January. Yeah. Is there even time for other stuff like that? It just seems like it's completely all consuming, especially with the state the country was in.

It is all consuming. There is time for other stuff because especially when it's so nasty, which it has been, you know, for the last five or six years, just truly nasty and ugly. And every time you think it can't get uglier, it almost inevitably does. Yeah, there definitely has to be time for other stuff, whether it's family or writing or sports

or binging on Netflix or HBO Max or whatever. There has to be because otherwise, you know, I would have a very serious drinking problem. I like that you stuck in HBO Max. It was smart. They're my parent company, as you know. I know, I know. It was good.

You said Netflix, HBO Max. I actually love HBO Max. Yeah, I feel like it's calmed down a little bit in so many different ways, right? The election cycle, that's done. The pandemic, I mean, I know it's not great around the world, but at least in America, it seems like it's heading into a decent, manageable direction where life is starting to feel normal again. And now it feels like the disinformation stuff

is going to become the dominant thing over the next three years. And it's worse and it's like, so I've been binging on the Marvel cinematic universe. I waited to watch them all with my kids, but my kids are 11 and 13 now and they couldn't care less but superhero movies.

So now I'm just watching them by myself when I work out. And I'm at the point in Avengers Age of Ultron where they're doing really well, but you look at how much time is left in the movie and you can also just sense like,

Oh, this is the fake defeat before all of a sudden, like you realize the fake defeat of the bad guys before also you realize like, Oh no, that was the fake out. All Tron's got some, you know,

you, I mean, as, as moviegoers, you just become accustomed to this stuff. And in fact, I say to my kids when we're watching a movie, especially if it gets sad,

remember kids, this is it. We're at the two thirds point in the movie where the hero is at his lowest point. And you know what I mean? Like, yeah, because,

because these things just have a structure anyway. I feel like that's where we are right now. Like, okay. The disinformation, like prompt as the lead purveyor of disinformation has basically kind of been quieted for a little bit um but we know that that's just not the case something is happening you know like the republican party not all of them

but but too many of them house leaders uh mainly mccarthy and scalise who are seeking to you know Liz Cheney for telling the truth like they it's just dissipated and we just don't know what's coming next so I don't we're not out of the woods yet when it comes to disinformation you've been in politics

your whole career like is it fair to say we're just more aware of how ugly it is? Cause I, you could say like going back to the nineties and early 2000s, stuff like that. There were stages where it was really ugly and it was early two thousands, obviously. And, and, um, it just seems like everything now is more overt and I don't really know all the reasons for that. Maybe it's social media makes everybody more hyper aware of all these different things. And I know the misinformation, disinformation stuff is way worse now.

But at the same time, do you think if we had a lot of the apparatus that we have now to follow this stuff that we would have been more aware of just how deep the sides were in the 90s and the two thousands. It's a great question. Yes, you're right. Look, there's been ugly politics forever and,

and, and all of that. And, you know, I, I think that, you know, you raise a good point.

Are we now just more aware of it? And that's possible because of social media. We're now just more aware of what everybody is reporting and everybody is saying. And maybe it was just before they were just saying it in smaller groups and we just weren't aware of it. But, you know, and like I've written about some of this stuff, the last novel I wrote takes place during the McCarthy era. And the new one takes place during the early Kennedy years. So yeah, there've been ugly parts. But, you know, one of the things that historians always used to say when things got ugly in politics was, well, you know, John Adams

and Thomas Jefferson, you know, they had pamphleteers that would go after each other and call, you know, call John Adams a hermaphrodite and things got really ugly. You know, in this last race, literally Trump and his family were accusing Joe Biden of being essentially being a pedophile. I mean, so I think the degree to which it is uglier than ever before and the ugliness is that there's just a sense of shame that is just gone from the marketplace when it comes to some people,

what they are willing to say about another person. I think it is worse than before. And like I said, even though President Trump's voice has been quieted because of his removal from social media and his defeat in the election, you know, you have more people believing his lies than ever before also. So I don't know. It's we need a sane and strong Republican Party. I don't, you know, I'm not one who thinks like the Democratic Party is the answers to anything.

I think there needs to be a lively fact-based debate on these things, but people can't just be making stuff up about election fraud or a cabal of satanic worshiping pedophiles. I mean, who are cannibals also, by the way. Don't forget the cannibals. And pizza eaters. Yeah, right.

Well, we know what pizza means. I mean... Right. With January 6th, if that doesn't happen, how much Trump is in our life right now? That's a great question. I think he probably still isn't.

I mean, it depends on whether or not those lies that he was telling, the election lies, whether he was still telling them and whether it had resulted in, because if January 6 hadn't happened, you could argue on this alternate universe, there would have been some violence in some other way. Everybody who had been covering this, this is what we had all feared for months. I remember talking to a friend of mine who writes for a prominent publication, and she was really bummed. I would name this person, but I didn't get permission.

But she was really bummed because she knew about what had just happened, that this is when the real unstable liars had come in to meet with Trump, Sidney Powell and Mike Flynn and, you know, all these people who were legitimately trying to overturn the election. And she was worried because she knew about this. And I mean, this was what we all feared that this, these lies would lead to violence. And of course they did. So you're hypothetical. I need more like, OK, you know, if we're doing this stir of stir of echoes alternate universe. I think that all of that was inevitable as long as he kept broadcasting the lies. And inevitably, therefore, he would have been taken off social media one way or the other. Because it was going to lead to violence somewhere. Somewhere. That's my answer as well.

I think January 6th happened, but if it didn't happen, it just would have been January 23rd. Oh, exactly. February 1st, whatever. Yeah, just would have been January 23rd or. Oh, exactly. February 1st, whatever. Yeah, it would have been January 23rd or it would have been March 3rd when Biden won such and such a play. It was all just a question of how is it going to manifest itself in the violence? Yeah, because you could feel it brewing. I mean, you guys, I'm sure you were probably at least a little nervous about your safety and everybody that worked for CNN and stuff like that. It became so divided, so polarizing, especially around the election. Did you feel safe going to work every

day? Look, I mean, Cesar Sayoc is the guy that Trump inspired to send, or who felt that he had been inspired by Trump to send pipe bombs to Democrats and members of the media. No, listen, you go back and you can find me interviewing Trump, pleading with him to calm things down in 2016 because the rallies were getting so violent. I asked him a question about that, a debate in March, 2016 in Miami. And no, it was always, it was always the fear that this was going to lead to,

it was, it was leading to violence. It was creating violence. And then what was going to happen and how much more was it going to spread? And look, I mean, there's this notion in national security called stochastic terrorism, which is the idea that if you have not said, go commit this act of violence against this person. You have created this environment that incites stochastic terrorism. And you can argue very compellingly that Trump and the conservatives and Republicans pushing in 2018 the fear of the caravan coming to America, coming to the United States from Central America. You can make a very compelling case that that incited the violence at the Tree of Life synagogue in 2018,

which was, remember, Trump was doing all this leading up to the midterms. The Tree of Life synagogue attack was October 2018. It was right before the election. You can make the compelling argument that it helped incite the violence in El Paso. I mean, there were no fingerprints, but there was that stochastic terrorism. And then there was the incited, directly incited violence of January 6th. That morning, yeah, I mean, I said something to CNN that morning about like, I hope we're prepared for security today. I might have said it the night before because we all knew he was saying it's going to get wild, January 6th, come to, I mean, and he was saying the election was being stolen

and people believed him. I almost wonder if he started to believe it after a while. I don't know. And this has always been a big mystery about this era of who is... I don't know. And this has always been a big mystery about this era of who is lying because of political ambition, who is saying these lies because they have some sort of psychological problem and they don't know what's real and what's not real. And who is not intelligent enough to understand that these are lies. And at some point, it doesn't really matter. I don't know what Trump believes or I don't know that at this point he believes it. And I think you're right. I think he does believe it.

I don't know that he always did, but I think he does now. At this point, I, you know, I'm not a professional in terms of like why he believes that way or why Michael Flynn does or, you know, Sidney Powell or any of these people. I just know that everything they're saying isn't true. And, and, uh, you know, Sidney Powell or any of these people. I just know that everything they're saying isn't true. And, you know, they've been asked to prove things in courts of law and they can't because it's not true. And it's, I just, I can't fathom it. But then, you know, there are people who join cults and I don't understand that, but they find a compelling reason to believe in such and such. And I don't understand that. Well, he was laying the breadcrumbs for it before the actual election. Oh, totally. So that makes you think this was his plan all along that if he lost the election,

here's his get out of jail free card he already has this separate plan of well i lost but here's why i lost because he said if i lose he said if i lose the only way i lose is if they cheat yeah that's it he said it so we knew and we saw it months coming for months and months and months um yeah the only thing that is surprising to me about any of it is how little the people around Trump and who are part of the Republican power structure continue to buy the idea that, no, no, no, we just need to appease him for a little bit longer and then he'll accept reality. Yeah. Like the Mitch McConnells of the world.

Like he thought that you could just wait until the electors met, and then Trump would accept what happened. Why would you think that? And the other thing that surprises me is the degree to which people like Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump and Mike Pence, people who I have to believe know that the election wasn't stolen. Although at this point, who knows what they believe. But those people, how much they didn't understand that this was going to keep getting worse and worse and worse.

And for the sake of the country, they needed to try to stop it. I mean, like Jared Kushner can make an argument, and I'm sure he does, that he helped pass criminal justice reform, that he helped with these incredible Abraham Accords, in which Israel is now at peace with several Sunni Arab nations. I mean, there are things he can be proud of that he helped achieve. nobody I mean, that's not going to be in the first line of his obituary. Is he true? Yeah, I wonder

if it became professional wrestling for Trump there for at least the first part of it, when he was like, this is how I'm going to win. I'm going to play this character. And then it seemed like it veered into something different. And I'm not sure at what point of the process, from 2015 to 2020, that veer happened.

But by the end of it, I really think that he thinks the election got stolen from him. The same way OJ probably doesn't think he murdered his wife. You think OJ thinks that? I think at this point he probably does. Yeah, I do. I think he's probably come up with some version of whatever the reality of that night was. And it didn't involve him committing a murder.

I think people can convince themselves just about anything after enough times. If they're repeating the same, you know, half-truths or lies over and over again, I think they can convince themselves of anything. I mean, I guess that's right. I mean, I will say that the older I get, and I don't mean to make light of mental health issues

because I take them very seriously and it's, you know, there are real crises and people should get the help they need and all that but there is a real the older I get the more I realize that there are a lot of very unbalanced people in positions of power in the house in the Senate in the news media and you know who people who should not who should not be trusted with the power they have because their grasp on reality is tenuous. So perhaps, perhaps. Well, with the Republicans, like there was obviously a fear to come out fully against him. Like even at the bitter end, it wasn't really until January 6th when some people are like, all right, fuck this.

I'm going to be on the right side of history. Do you think that fear came from being afraid of Trump supporters or being afraid of Trump in 2024? And the fact that four years later, this guy might be back in my life and I don't want to seem like an enemy of his. I think, I mean, it depends on the individual.

It's a smart question. I think a lot of people, like right now, it's playing out in the House Republican Conference with them all going after Liz Cheney because she is telling the truth about the election and the insurrection. You know, who's more conservative probably than almost everybody that's attacking her in terms of policy. I think a lot of that is people afraid of Trump voters. They're afraid of losing an election and therefore they are doing what they feel

needs to be done in order to not get defeated or in order to be able to, in Kevin McCarthy's case, win the House in 2022. I think there are also people, I don't think 2024, I mean, I think that's in the calculus just for like, you know, the two dozen people thinking about

running for president in 2024. But what I don't understand about them is the stronger Trump is, the less likely, the more likely it is that he'll run and the less likely it is that they'll have a shot. Like, I mean, Chris Christie can't run for president if Trump's running. I don't even know which of them can run for president if Trump's running. I guess theoretically Liz Cheney could, but I don't know. I just don't know how that works. I think there is also a degree to which some of them are personally intimidated by Trump. These are, you know, some of them are personally people that have never stood up to a bully before.

And for instance, I think it's very likely that one of the reasons Kevin McCarthy, remember, he was all in on the lie and then the riot happened and then he had like 20 seconds of courage where he went on the floor of the House and held Trump accountable to a degree for the insurrection. And then between that and like January, the end of January, he switched back and now he's all in with Trump again. During that period, Maggie Haberman of The New York Times reported that Trump called Kevin McCarthy a pussy. And I think that actually had an effect. Yeah. I think that actually, I mean, to his face, not just behind his back. And like, I think that had an effect. I think that that that must have really bothered him because he's got a brittle spirit and he's afraid of, you know, I don't know, it hurts feelings.

I have no idea. But. I mean, it's crazy to me. It turns out that. I don't know. We're not in the world of adults. What what is CNN like? You have this Trump thing for five years years and then all of a sudden it's

gone. It's almost like if they were playing, if the NBA playoffs were five years in a row from a content standpoint, and then all of a sudden there wasn't, it was just gone. Like day to day, what are the things that you think are driving discourse right now? What are the things that you care about other than the disinformation stuff?

And obviously the COVID, the vaccine arguments, things like that. What else matters right now in 2021 to you? Well, first of all, let me just say, like, he's not gone just because he's not on TV. Like, he's still like. He's lingering. Oh, yeah. I mean, all this Republican Civil War stuff is that's him. Yeah.

It's you know, it's not he's not there. And I love it. And one of the things I love about it is covering non-Trump stories. Covering the coup in Myanmar and covering the blockade because of the civil war in Yemen. And, you know, I hate covering the, I hate covering disasters in the sense that I'm sad it's happening, but I'm glad that we're able to give these stories air. So I don't miss any of it.

I'm so glad that we're able to cover stories about veterans that are important and stuff that like Trump would crowd out of the way because he would tweet something so deranged or racist or, you know, just something that, that just pushed everything else away that we couldn't get to the more substantive stuff because the president of the United States was telling for Congresswomen of color to go back where they came from, you know, that kind of thing.

You have to cover that. Right. Yeah, it's weird. There's still this shadow, but at the same time, I look back and those four years seem like they happened like 20 years ago, right? Like just the last three months of, I think what I didn't realize in the moment, which you can now see really clearly now is just being on edge day after day, not knowing at any

point what could happen. And I don't think that's something that I really put into words or talked about with other people or just be like, wow, isn't it weird to just wake up and within two hours, all hell could break loose. And then once that's removed, it's almost like having like the bad cavity in your mouth that you're like, oh, I didn't realize that's why my head hurt for two years. This is, this is nice. It's so kind of peaceful today. Nothing's happening. I'm just worrying about who the Patriots are going to take in the second round of the draft. And that's, that's my biggest dilemma today.

Yeah. No, it's like when you're sick, you're really, really sick and you're in the throes of it. And you're like, God, I never appreciate just like not being sick. Like how,

what like normal well behavior is. And, you know, I, I want to cover, uh, and you know i i want to cover uh just normal debates about issues and you know i want to have liz cheney on to talk about like why we shouldn't pull out of afghanistan not like why her position that the moon landing wasn't faked is controversial, you know?

What is, uh, what's the fairest criticism of CNN the last couple of years in your mind? I mean, I think, you know, I think one of the criticisms that, uh, and it's not just CNN, but just, but just, I think there was a real, I think it was very difficult to cover Trump in the Trump era. For any number, during any number of periods, first of all, there was this early era when he came, he announced he was running, I think in like June, May or June, and like by July or August, he was number one in the polls in the Republican party. And he would have these rallies that nobody had ever seen anything like before, or at least not in modern politics. Maybe, you know, maybe Father Coughlin or William Jennings Bryan or something

was something like that. But these extemporaneous, bizarre, entertaining, offensive, long rallies, TV news covered them wall to wall. And I think my boss, Jeff Zucker, has said that if he could go back, he would do that the way he did. But everybody did it. I mean, all the networks did it. And I think that was a mistake, as Jeff has acknowledged, because we didn't give equal time to other candidates. But by the same token, he was this phenomenon and people were watching and they, whether they loved not everybody did that, you know, we in the media could stand up for facts and truth and decency without being partisan about it. Like it's okay to say, Hey, you shouldn't call for a ban on all Muslims entering the country because that's unconstitutional and completely bigoted. But I think because we had never really in the

news media hadn't been presented with anything that stark. And so in some time, it took a while for a lot of people to understand how to cover it and cover it well and cover it fairly and accurately and standing up for the right things without being partisan. But I still think there are a lot of lessons that a lot of people haven't learned. So when you're moderating a a debate what's the sports equivalent of that is it like a like being the referee of a prize fight or like for or in your position you almost have to be like the quarterback who can't throw any picks has to get every every uh every snap from the center perfectly you basically the perfect debate for you

is if nobody's talking about you after, right? Other than to say, oh, he did a good job. But what else do we need to know about what it's like to have that job for two hours? First of all, it's a very difficult job. And once you do it, like, you know, it's, you're reluctant to criticize.

I mean, one of the things that, so I did, I did two debates in 2015, 16. Um, one of them had 11 candidates on the stage at the Reagan library in Simi Valley. I would not recommend that. That was not fun. It was three hours. The air conditioning broke. I mean, it was a mess. But I think it was a good substantive debate as these things go, but it's very difficult because you had 11 candidates and they're all,

Jake, Jake, Jake, Jake, Jake. You know, they're just all yelling my name. The next one I did was May, I think, or March, maybe. No, it was March 2016. They were down to four candidates then, Cruz, Rubio, Kasich, and Trump. it was March 2016. It was only, they were down to four candidates then, Cruz, Rubio, Kasich, and Trump. That was much easier.

The one thing I'll say, and I've done some debates since then of the Democratic candidates is, you're going to get, especially if you have a lot of candidates on the stage, there's only two ways you can go. You can be tough on time and stopping people from talking when they exceed their time limits,

in which you'll get criticized for being, you know, a hard ass about the time. Or you can be too easy and let them walk all over you, in which case you'll get criticized for that. There really is very little room in between. So I remember I did a Democratic debate in Detroit, and there were a lot of candidates. People criticized me for like, thank you, Senator.

Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Senator, for stopping them. But then like the converse, until you get down to two or three candidates in which you can really, if you get down to two or three candidates, nobody criticizes you basically, unless you have like a, what Chris Wallace had, which was Donald Trump's fault, not Chris's, which is somebody just acting completely,

but in the normal situation, like when we had the Biden Bernie debate at the end of 2020, it's only two people. So nobody's vying for time. Um, but if you have a lot of camp i guess my the main thing i'd say is i don't recommend doing it early in the process when there are a lot of candidates because it's very difficult to pull off and not get criticized if you care about being criticized that is it's almost like how a boxing referee you notice him if he's breaking up the action too much and you notice him if he's not breaking it up enough.

But if you're not noticing him at all, you know he's doing a good job, basically. The best fights ever, the ref is only there when he absolutely has to be. Yeah, and those are the best debates too. But remember, there's only two fighters. Now imagine if there were 10 in the ring. Imagine if there were 10.

I mean, that honestly is what it's like. Imagine being the referee of an 11 boxer fight. It's like a battle royale in wrestling or something. Yeah, but that's fake. Imagine if it was real. Well, you have the other thing, which I just think is nuts because I've

done these shows. You'll have especially on election night, you'll have like eight people there. Oh, for the panels? Yeah, you'll have like eight people there. Oh, for the panels? Yeah, you'll have like an eight, nine person panel. I remember when I did the NBA show for a couple of years, it was usually four of us, right? And then there was a couple of times they would squeeze in five when we had like a special guest or something.

And it was just terrible because somebody's talking, but that means four other people are just kind of standing there waiting to talk. It's impossible to have back and forth. And I was like, I just don't ever think there should be more than four, not just on this show, but any show. The NFL pregame shows, they'll have five. It's always one too many. With some of the election stuff, what would you have? There would be like nine or 10? Yes. And I have the same bias that you do. I prefer a panel with two people. Two, three, three max.

Or even like, I just like, I mean, yeah, one. I mean, I don't need any, if like Abby Phillip is on my show, I don't need to hear anybody else. I just want to talk to Abby Phillip or Maggie Haberman or any of these, you know, brilliant colleagues I have. Yeah, these mega super panels. I don't, I don't have a say in that. It is not generally generally speaking, my favorite thing. Now, maybe there are focus groups or ratings or something indicating that people love the mega super panels. But to me, it's like Sharknado. It's just so much. But I don't know. There must be some reason. It might be everybody wants to play on big nights,

selection nights, and their agents all call in. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I am generally a favor of the two-person or three-person discussion. I just think it's such, because it's like, here's an idea. Oh, that's interesting.

Here's another idea. Here's another, you know, like everybody's working together and playing off each other. You have 10 or 11 people. Everybody's just trying to say something. Yeah, it's like the dinner analogy, right? If you have a dinner and it's

like you mean one other person or you mean two other people, we can get a table for four and we're just all kind of playing off each other. But then if you go to five, six, basically the table will segment and then there's two different conversations happening. And then when you get to eight,

you might as well just be at two different tables. There's no way. When you get to nine or 10, it's even crazier. There must be some study though that people love seeing lots of people on the TV screen, that there's actually some sort of ratings boost from it. That's the only way I can imagine it makes sense.

There must be. I also think, you know, there's also like a lot of different kinds of panelists, right? When you're putting together a panel, there are a million different kinds of diversity. There's racial diversity,

gender diversity, ideological diversity, professional diversity. Here's a panel of pundits, Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, progressives, you know, et cetera. Here's a panel of journalists, you know, I mean, so I think that's also part of it that there's just like, you know, everybody, oh, I love Van Jones. I want to hear what he has to say. You know, everybody has their favorites at home

and they're just waiting for their favorite. I mean, I'm sure there's a reason, but I agree with the general idea that like, those are not the, in my view, they're not the, actually, who knows whether or not they're better. I'm not even talking about the viewer experience, to be honest.

I'm talking about the moderator experience. As a moderator, it's easier to have two or three people. Well, and then you're constantly, you're basically like a point guard on a basketball team that has nine people on it trying to set up different people versus like if you're just playing three on three, it's a hell of a lot easier. Do you feel like, I would say the sense of humor of this country, maybe for the last two, three years is about the worst it's ever been. Our ability to laugh at ourselves. Um, people that take really everything way too personally and, um, the things you're allowed to make fun of,

obviously that list has dwindled left and right, but just in general, like, is this, is this the most serious you feel like this country's ever been? I know there's a lot of different reasons for it. I guess for what you're doing, maybe it doesn't affect it that much. But the reason I'm asking is just like, you see like Saturday Night Live,

which is always a barometer of this stuff. And they've been trying to do, satirize the different news stuff the last few years. And as soon as Trump went away, it was like this cloud lifted over the show and they got way more experimental and were able to do stuff. But just the mood of the country in general, just from where you're sitting for what you do for a living, how do you see it? Such a complicated question. I mean, there's so many reasons for all of this, as you know. I mean, there are political divisions, ideological divisions. You know, my wife and I often will, we're kind of binging on 30 Rock right now. And like half that show you couldn't do today.

I mean, just a ton of it is making is, is making fun of, it's not making fun of racial stereotypes. I mean, it's not being racist themselves, but there is a, now we're making fun of people who are racist kind of thing, but. I don't know. Now nobody would even do that anymore. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's a lot of stuff that you... There's a lot of stuff that you can't touch and some of it is probably for the best

and some of it is definitely comedy deadening. You know, first of all, I mean, I'm old enough to know because I used to watch, I used to sneak down

stairs and watch the original Not Ready for Primetime Players. So I'm old enough to know because i used to watch i used to sneak down stairs and watch the original um not ready for primetime players so i'm old enough to know that like everybody always complains about centerline it's true true true it's the one constant in in my life is that everybody's always talking about how much they don't like the current cast or the current show or whatever it was better five years ago. Yeah. Yeah, always. And the truth of the matter is that even if you go back

and like watch some of those old shows in the 70s, the classics, like as with any comedy variety show, like if they had two or three really good skits, like that's a win, you know? Yeah. It's like baseball. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Who did you on Saturday Night Live? Was it Sudeikis originally? No, Beck Bennett. Um, yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't know. I'm trying to think. Who did you on Saturday Night Live? Was it Sudeikis originally? No, uh, Beck Bennett. Oh, so they only started doing you a few years ago then? Oh, they only started in 2016. Yeah, no, no. I was never.

Did you talk to Beck Bennett about it? Have you met him? No, I've never met him. I tried tweeting him. He was not interested. He froze you out. He didn't want to cross the beams. I mean, I think he's a professional. He didn't want to get too close to his source material. I thought he did a pretty good job. They stopped doing me though.

Oh, you're out? Yeah mean i don't yeah they they stopped doing me the last skit that i think they did with me was when i stopped uh booking kelly and conway and they did a thing about like me not booking kelly and conway and it was like fatal attraction i don't know if you remember it was like a fatal attraction skit and. And I was asked what I thought about it. And I said that my wife thought it was sexist, which she did. She's a super feminist. And she thought it was sexist. Why are they sexualizing Kellyanne? She's, you know.

And then they never did me again. So I thought maybe they were like... They spited you. Yeah. Holding your, oh, your wife thinks we're sexist, huh? Well, see how you're like not ever being impersonated. How do you take... What do you do with your show the next couple of years?

How do you make it more interesting for you? Well, first of all, I mean, at two hours a day, I'm like a kid in a candy store because and i have this great team that i've put together and and i mean how do we make it more interesting like i mean it's it's so interesting to like for instance um i listened to an episode of this american life a few days ago they did a great episode about Frank Luntz, the Republican pollster, doing a focus group trying to figure out how to sell the vaccine to Republican voters who are skeptical. And I was like, this is so good. This is so interesting.

And I wonder if he's, I wonder if any of them got vaccinated after. It was just a really good show. I mean, that's a great radio show. And I reached out to Frank and he told me that, you know, five of the 12 had. And so I just say to my staff, like, let's book Frank and use the focus group and talk to him about, you know, how do we do this? This is a big problem in the country right now.

44% of Republicans won't get vaccinated and we need them to get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. How do we do it? And then we have Frank and we have room to do it. We have the time to do it, to have a conversation with Frank,

play clips of these people. So I'm just, I'm a kid in a candy store. The most important thing I can do is not do what cable has been criticized for in the past, I think appropriately. So just, you know, faux outrage of the day, nonsense, fake conflict. Let's not do that. I feel like the viewers right now are in a place where they are hungry for like

real substantive, you know, engaging, entertaining, but not empty calories, news stories. And as long as I can do that, I'm totally excited and happy to be doing my job. It's fun. Well, I wonder if the discourse on podcasts has kind of helped elevate the potential of a show like that, right? Where people are used to hearing certain type of conversations. If you have two hours, you can have, you can kind of capture the spirit of those conversations and some,

some longer segments and, and by picking topics that maybe aren't like the stereotypical up, start at the top here, Republicans are mad. Like you're actually going to have more ambition than that. I think that's definitely fair. And because I think that I have, because I have spent, you know, a lot, whenever I'm driving, I'm basically listening, I'm listening to either a podcast or Dave Matthews.

That's pretty much it these days. And podcasts are definitely, Matthews. That's pretty much it these days. podcasts, they definitely elevate the conversation. The ones I listen to anyway. I can't speak to some of them. I'm sure there are awful ones or ones that do not enhance our understanding. Generally speaking, what I listen to does.

I think that's probably fair. At least for me and my show, I think that that. The desire to make people feel smarter and better informed is something that is that is definitely, I think, encouraged by podcasts. I think also, there's a lot, you know, when you do my job, you get a lot of feedback. And not all of it's positive. But some of it, you know, some of the people make good points.

I remember this guy, Elon Green, tweeting at me like, I don't even know, seven or eight years ago, basically saying, you have this perch, why are you not covering climate change more? And it really had an effect on me. And we started covering it much more because I was like, he's right. I wasn't trying to appease Elon, but he's like, he's right. I wasn't trying to appease Elon. But, you know, he's like, he's right. He makes a good point. What are we going to tell our kids?

Are we covering this or are we not covering it? So I do think the feedback also, if you have the ability to listen to the stuff when it's actually a point is being made, that's been helpful too. Do you get feedback from the kids yet? They're not quite old enough to, I would say, what are they, 13 or 11? Yeah.

Yeah. It's interesting when your kids, when you hit that 13, 15 range, all of a sudden they'll drop some oysters every once in a while or some pearls, not some oysters. My kids are brilliant. But they're more, they're into their worlds. My daughter is, I only started, I think, really impressing her when people were on TikTok talking about me in a positive way. Kids were talking about me in a positive way, using my facial expressions as memes or whatever. And that was like, wow.

Yeah, I really, I made the big time. It's a little frightening that TikTok has become so powerful. I just joined. I just joined. Yeah, our generation is going to join it and we're going to all make it less cool. But for now, it seems like it's, it's the dominant force for 20,

20 and under basically. I will say that by joining it, I have already exponentially made it less, made it less cool. There's no question. Like, especially to my children, I'm sure.

Um, but look, I mean, you know, like with Willie Sutton and the money, you know, why do you rob banks? That's where the money is. I mean, that know, like with Willie Sutton and the money, you know, why do you rob banks? That's where the money is.

I mean, that's where kids are. And like if you are a news person or you're a content provider like you are, like I am, you know, I have a novel that's coming out in a week and all that. That's where people under, as you know, that's where people under 20, 25 are. They're not on Facebook. They're not on Twitter. They're definitely not on Facebook. Yeah. Some of them, I guess, are on Twitter, but generally speaking, they're having fun. They might be on Twitter, but they're having fun on TikTok, right? They're on Snapchat, Instagram, and Twitter. Snapchat, they have secret lives that we don't

know about. Instagram, they post photos people look at. And then TikTok is where the real creativity is going for better and worse. Absolutely. But the bar of just all of a sudden having a million people see one of your videos on TikTok is basically as low as it can get if it's decent. I think that's really appealing to kids.

How old are your kids? My daughter just turned 16 get if it's decent. I think that's really appealing to kids. How old are your kids? I have, my daughter just turned 16 and my son's 13. So they're right in the middle of it right now with the TikTok world. So, I mean, the funny thing to me is you can only post a video that's a minute on TikTok, right? That's the way. Yeah, it used to be lower.

Now it's, I think it's up to a minute, yeah. So the funny thing is, I mean, it's interesting because one of the things I do every day is I post for my team, rather my staff posts every segment from my show on Twitter. It's kind of like a way to show viewers what I'm doing or if you missed it. And also it's just like kind of like accountability. Here's what we did today. The social media team will send me, they will pick on their own,

two or three segments that I did that day, usually interviews, or maybe if we have some special long package that a reporter's done from India or something, they'll send me those and I'll post them on my Facebook and Instagram. But I can't post anything on TikTok. It's too short.

Yeah. But there might be some iteration down the road where that might be how kids get news. There might be some way to grab little kernels from a show like yours and kids see that. And it's, I don't know. I just feel like that generation is going to get basically everything from it.

My son's like learned about basketball from Tik TOK. That's funny. I don't really understand. He'll just come to me and be like, dad, Alan, I ever since 2001 MVP season, and he'll have like three facts from it.

And I'm like, where'd you, why is, why, why are you even telling me? Well, I saw it on TikTok. But it just seems like the kids get a lot of information from it. They definitely get stuff.

But I just wonder, I hope that, I mean, maybe it's, you know, it wets the palate for them to learn more. You can't really share a lot in a minute, right? You would hope that they'll have a palette. I mean, a minute is not a lot of time. My son is 11. He watches YouTube videos. Yeah.

And he'll like, I'll be amazed by it, but he'll learn, like he taught himself how to play chess watching YouTube. Wow. He just knows how to play chess watching YouTube. Wow. He just knows. He's into the Vietnam War now. He wants to learn about the Vietnam War.

And we've talked about the Vietnam War, but he watches these YouTube videos to learn about things. And that, to me, is... You can learn a lot more on a 15 minute piece on the Vietnam or half hour or whatever. And so I worry about the tick tock. I don't worry about generation Z cause they seem great to be honest, but I do worry about the, about tick tock being too short. Hmm.

All right. Before we go, give me one Jimmy Kimmel story that he'll get mad that we discussed on the podcast. I'm trying to think. You've known him since what White House Correspondents Dinner? That's when you guys really started. When did he come?

2009, 2010? Yeah, somewhere in there, like 9, 10 range, right? You became like his conciliary for the whole White House world. First of all, I'll tell you one story, but I'll just say like, as you know, he is one of the kindest, sweetest guys. It's actually knowing him now, it's amazing that he does the Halloween candy,

stealing the kids' Halloween candy. That is the meanest bit. It is so mean. And he is the opposite. He's the opposite. So I had done a piece for, this is when I was at ABC News, I had done a profile of Sarah Silverman

back when she was dating Jimmy Kimmel. They broke up, but when he was doing the White House Correspondents Dinner, she called me and said, can Jimmy call you? Because he doesn't know. He's never done a gig like this before. And I said, sure. The truth of the matter is, I probably steered him to do nerdier, wonkier comedy. That's my bad. He probably should have been broader. But anyway, he did a good job. The last time we saw him, we were out there, my wife is friends with Molly, his wife,

uh, and well, we're all friends. And, uh, our kids went out there and my son, Jack, we were in, first of all, these kids just as with yours, I'm sure they breathe such rarefied air. I mean, there's Jimmy Kimmel making them pancakes. them pancakes right i mean he loves to cook for people as you know he's making them pancakes and my kids are just sitting there like oh no big deal an oscar host is making them breakfast right now um anyway so my son who is the character, says to Jimmy Kimmel, and my son at this point is nine, he says, you know, my dad says you're a comedian, but you've never made me laugh.

This is when we've been staying there for about a day. You haven't made me laugh. Okay. It's a dead series. Like, how dare you call yourself a comedian? I've been here for 24 hours and Jimmy and this is so Jimmy he goes that's not true when you walked in

I said such and such and you laughed and my son was like oh yeah that's right that's true like Jimmy had remembered in his brain this is what I made this nine year old laugh like a classic comedian keeping an eye on what works

for what members of which audience so anyway that's a good one also because it involves Jimmy arguing with somebody which is another secret trait of his he's always ready to argue about anything it's really more a story about my son and how poorly we're raising him

than it is about Jimmy. Tell me about your book. Oh, so it's called The Devil May Dance. And I wrote a book a couple years ago called The Hellfire Club. It's about a Republican congressman and his wife moving to McCarthy era Washington. And there's a big mystery and a lot of conspiracies and it did well.

It hit the bestseller list and people liked it. And so I did, this is the sequel. It takes place in 1962. Um, I'll send you a copy. It's a, it's, you'll like it. The basic premise is based on a real story, which is that Frank Sinatra, uh, after campaigning his heart out for John F. Kennedy, expected that when Kennedy came out to visit L.A. in 1962, that he would stay with Sinatra at Sinatra's Rancho Mirage compound. Sinatra had all this work done, too.

He built a helipad and all this stuff so that the president could stay there. But then Robert Kennedy, the attorney general, started getting cold feet and second thoughts about it because he was cracking down on organized crime. And people thought, well, you're cracking down on organized crime. An FBI agent actually even asked him, you're cracking down on organized crime, but your brother's friends with Sinatra, who is best friends with the mob. So the premise of the book is that Charlie and Margaret, my characters, go out at Attorney General Kennedy's behest to investigate Sinatra to see if he's really mobbed up. And it was very fun to write. It was a great escape during COVID and the quarantine where I could just leave the world aside for a second and spend like an hour or two drinking bourbon with Sinatra and the Rat Pack. That's awesome.

I think people will like it. I hope they do. When is, is the book out or is it coming out? Comes out May 11th. I should have known that before. May 11th. When is that? Oh, that's next week.

One week. One week from today. There you go. All right. All right. I'm glad we finally did this and I still hate the Eagles. That's fair enough. I hate the Patriots.

Now I also hate wherever he goes. Wherever Brady goes, I will hate him as well because he has Patriot stink on him. He may never retire. He might just do a couple years in Tampa and then just go to another franchise. He's like a vampire. He might just do a couple years in Tampa and then just go to another franchise. He's like a vampire. He might just never die.

Honestly, and the thing is also as much as I hate him, he's so good. What do you feel about him? You must be at least ambivalent about him leaving. Yeah, it made me sad. I was mad and spiteful

and then I bet on him in every playoff game and it was great. So that was how I made myself feel good by gambling on him. My only point is he's so good he doesn't need to cheat. But we don't need to get into that. We don't need to. He didn't cheat. It was never proven. No, of course not.

It was the same with OJ. Completely flawed investigation. It's an excellent point. If the gloves do not fit, you must quit. It's the same principle. Listen, it was a sham of investigation. We lost a first-round pick. That I agree with.

We lost a first-round pick. Spygate, I can't defend Spygate. That's a tough one. The Brady thing, I do think he got railroaded because I think Goodell was just mad about that after Spygate, he never thought he was going to have to deal with the Pats again. That's what I tell myself at night.

Jake Tapper, it was great to see you. Congrats on everything. Thanks, Bill. I appreciate it this was fun I don't have