The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Gutty Spurs Win, Angry Knicks Fans, Game 4 Thoughts, and NBA Draft Movements With Rob Mahoney and J. Kyle Mann

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

Join The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Rob Mahoney LIVE to react to the Spurs taking Game 3 against the Knicks in the NBA Finals (1:15). Then, J. Kyle Mann comes on to break down the top prospects and the best fits ahead of the NBA draft (48:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Brought to you by PayPal. Learn more at paypal.com #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! https://michelobultra.com/courtside MICHELOB ULTRA® COURTSIDE ’25 to ’26. No Purchase Necessary. Open to US residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026 Multiple entry periods. See Official Rules at https://michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Rob Mahoney is with me. We're coming off game three. Spurs. Nix wanted to mention you can hear Rob. Rob on the Prestige TV podcast. You can hear him on the Ringer MBA show as well on group chat. I have new rewatchables that went up. Actually, tonight, it's from Hell Month, Rob, and we did single-wave female.

Not sure where you stand on that movie. I'm anti-single-white female as a concept. You know, the impersonation into potential murder, I can't say I'm for it. Well, we loved it, and we went over two hours talking about it. Okay. Game three, which I think if the Knicks lost, we were going to dub the Trump game. And yet, after watching what the Spurs did today, I got to say, I have no dog in this race.

I'm so impressed by the Spurs. I actually thought that there was a real possibility they were going to do this today because there was so many good signs from the first two games. This is a team with a lot of pride, a lot of chutzpah. It's the second youngest finals team we've ever had.

The first youngest finals team came back from 02 and won in the 77 finals. They showed them in the huddle, before the game, Rob. And they seem loose. They're doing their dancing stuff. And it was just unintimited by the moment. Meanwhile, every single celebrity on the planet is there.

Even though this turned into a rock fight, I was wildly impressed with them. So let's start there. What are your Spurs' thoughts coming out of the gate? I also thought they could win this one. I mean, games one and two were so tight. It was a classic case of this is the NBA finals. So there are huge takeaways from very, very slim margins.

the turnover at the end of game two was catastrophic. Like that could have been a career altering play, could still be a series altering play. We'll see how it all shakes out. But they were there that close to begin with. They were doing enough positively to be super competitive over the first two. And I thought in this one in particular, came out with a lot of clarity in their offensive game plan

in terms of like the Knicks have been playing incredible defense, but even the best defensive game plans come at a cost. Like you're giving up something somewhere. And you could see, I would say with Castle and Fox specifically, they knew the weak side read before it even really sprang open. And so that gave me a lot of confidence that like, okay, this team knows what they're doing. The moment I shook up a little bit is that end of second quarter,

Nick's resurgence where I was like, oh, no. Is it just going to be like this where New York scores at the end of every late clock opportunity where they have responses for every conceivable run? That's just who they've been in these playoffs. Fortunately, for the Spurs, they got, I mean, absolutely saved by a late Stefan Castle 3 and Deeran Fox going one on one against O.G. and Obie, which is like playing Tugawar with a Doberman. I wouldn't know part of that matchup or anything related to it.

Yeah, it turned into a rock fight near the end. And I couldn't tell if it was the tension of the crowd and the energy of the building and just how long the night was. You know, and everybody took it so long to get in there and every piece of that, how hard everyone was playing. But it felt like neither team could get any shot they were there. The Spurs were starting plays with six seconds left, 45 feet from the basket. You mentioned there were the, I wrote down that the Castle Lucky bailout three was in my notes.

Monster play. That was after two San Antonio blocks, Brunson scores. And it feels like, oh, my God, this is, we've been here before with the next. And Brunson, I mean, Castle bails them out there. And then Fox. So I texted you with eight, eight minutes left. And I asked you, do we see Fox again? because he'd come out

and they were playing Harper with Castle. I think they were playing Bissell and Champany and Wembe. Yeah. And I was 50-50 whether we'd see Fox again.

He wasn't, seemed like he just has lost confidence in his three. Wasn't really attacking the basket like he usually does. And I didn't know if we'd see him again, but we saw him again and then he made the biggest shot of the game.

Never found confidence in the three, though. And for a moment, I thought the defining play of him coming back was that possession where he passed up an open three to drive into OG and fall over. And it was like, oh, like, that was where you could feel some of the tension.

You could feel some of the potential Spurs implosion. But not only did he come up with that huge shot, he had like a possession-saving block on Kat during that one, like Nick's possession that wouldn't end and they kept maybe, maybe fouling, maybe blocking Kat, who's to say? And then also I thought he had some really good driving kick stuff for shots that just didn't fall. Like some of the cleanest looks of the Spurs ended up getting down the stretch

were triggered by Deerran Fox, of all people. there's some weird spurs coaching stuff still that I don't really totally understand but the thing I love that they did today they staggered the timeouts I'm almost positive Wemby didn't come out of the fourth quarter and there was I think

at least two challenges there was a timeout that he took right after a challenge and I think he was just trying to use the timeouts so he never had to take Wembe out and that fourth quarter felt like it went on for 45 minutes Wembe ended up finishing with the 32, 8, and 6 with the three blocks.

And I thought seemed pretty fresh down the stretch. Now, the Knicks in the second half, I think they had at least 10 offensive rebounds. Because there was a, for the first, like, hour of this game, each team only had one offensive rebound because everything was going in. And then it turned into more of a rock fight, and the Knicks started to really hurt them. But I thought Wembe seemed a lot more fresh down the stretch.

I still think fundamentally, the fact that the spurs had that pad, they were always up six, eight, five, seven, ten, six, and so when their offense really went sideways, it was okay.

I wonder what happens in a game for if this is a two-point game with three minutes left. I still don't really know what the spurs play is in that situation. Like what do you see from them? When it gets really slow down half court,

crowd standing, what's their play? Because we know what it is for the next. I would say some of the most successful stuff for them to just die up has been like pretty simple, like staggered screens. Wemby and a second screener and Castle or Fox can come off of that action.

And you'll see like multiple Nix when that happens end up gravitating toward Wembe. And then like Devin Vassell will be wide open in the corner on the wing. So you can get like good action out of that. And frankly, I think it's like a little cleaner for them than some of the other stuff that they try to draw up or I mean, the possession that led to that Stefan Castle bailout three was just they were just trying to run a handoff with Victor Webbenyama. and he got jammed up. This was not like the best cat game or the most sterling cat game,

but I thought he did as well challenging Wemby's jumper. In this one, then maybe from anyone I've ever seen defend Victor Webbenyama, how many possessions do we see Wembe leave his feet? It'd have to just pass out to somebody because he couldn't get the shot of whoever cat. And so they were able to jam him up in a way that I don't think you can just run ISO for Wembe

or dribble handoff for Wembe. I think it has to be slightly more complicated than that. which is what happened at least three times down the stretch where it seemed like he just had the ball with 30 feet from the basket. Under 10 seconds left, figured out. And I don't really think he's that kind of player, Castle, you know, who was huge, who answered the usage rate critics, myself included in the first half.

He was like seven for eight, but he was attacking the basket. And I wrote down on my notes in the first half, like sometimes this will happen with players when they're awesome early. This always used to be the Celtics with Marcus Smart. if Marcus Smart was awesome in the first quarter, it's like, are we going to pay for that later? Maybe so. When he's taking 10 field goals in the fourth quarter

because he was hot two hours ago. But Castle, I thought for the most part, played a much smarter game than I thought he played a game too. I still think he has the ball just more than I want, if I'm a Spurs fan when you have these other two point cards that have great handles and are real point cards, but this is how they do it?

Well, how do you want it to shake out then? because our confidence was wavering in D.R. and Fox at points in this game. We were just talking about how you can't just give the ball to Victor Webbenyama 30 feet from the basket. I guess it's Dylan Harper by default that you want a little bit more of. Who wasn't perfect today? Even though I thought he swung the game in the second quarter. Thought in the second half, he got a little, I got this C and had a couple like reckless drives. I think he finished with 13, but his rebounding, I mean, he does so many good things.

I feel one of the things I noticed, I've noticed this when I used to play pickup. When lefties guard other lefties, it's like they have the kryptonite for the other lefty because they know all the lefty moves. And I think when Harper, when he defends Brunson, he just seems really comfortable on him.

And I wonder if we're going to see that more because Castle has done a good job on him too. But how many minutes did Harper play today? To me, he has to be, so he was... 32. And 32 seems to be where they've landed with him. I'll be interested to see if they bumped that at any point because they tried Carter

Brian out. He came out guns blazing. He was guarding cat, which I wanted to see, made a three, and then all of a sudden turned into a human bowling ball. So he only played three minutes. The guns were always blazing with Carter Briy. Like he really only has the one gear. Carnette played nine minutes minus three, which is really good for him, five rebounds. And Kelden Johnson, they tried to get going. He was plus 14. He was at least being physical, but Harper is really, I think the only bench guy they can trust. And then we didn't even mention this yet, and we should because I can just tell you

from all the text fans I was getting from my Nick fan friends, furious about the officiating. Like asking me knowing I'm a neutral observer, like, are you watching this? Are you seeing this? I thought Wembe throwing Brunson down was bad. I couldn't believe they didn't call that.

It's worth mentioning that every time the next challenge a call, it's in their favor because it was a bad call. So that's definitely happened. But for the most part, I thought it was pretty even. I don't, what did you think? I thought this was yet another incredibly physical game. And if you're going to point in any game in the series where the Knicks got a raw deal officiating wise, I would say it's game two.

This one other than the Wemby shove on Jalen Brunson, I don't, I don't remember a ton of plays that were incredibly egregious. I'm sure if we go back with the microscope that we can find some. But I thought a lot of people were being held and shoved and pushed basically at all times. that's just kind of the game it was. My buddy Jim Grady, who I've known since I was 15 years old, NBA fucking sucks. The reps are doing everything in their power for the spurs.

We'll be throwing elbows as annoying. Just really, like this was, every Nick fan I know is sending me some bearish and the same thing. They did go into the penalty almost immediately in the fourth quarter. Yeah. Like there was one moment. They had five fouls and the spurs had zero. And if that had been the Celtics,

I would have been losing their line. But so much of that was frustration, too. Like the Knicks, they came on the fourth quarter. I mean, really for most of the second half, their offense, everything was so difficult. The spurs were picking up Brunson really high. They were making him work every step of the way. And you could just tell, not even by, you know, like Brunson's shooting efficiency, which is fine. Like his scoring was fine.

It's more about how many dribbles, how many moves, how much did it tax him just to create literally anything? And he has to do so much for the Knicks. Yeah, when he came out, so that was in the same thing. They had a 42 point second quarter of the Knicks. But he comes out, and it's 33-22 after the first quarter. But Alvarado and Clarkson coming together, shift the energy, and it's a two-point game. And I thought they were really effective. And they got the crowd into it a different way.

And as you said, really Brunson-centric, which is usually everybody's least-favor version of the Knicks. And not to blame him, but it was just a lot of dribbling. The fourth quarter was different. I didn't feel like it was as Brunson-centric. I just thought the Spurs played, I thought the level they went to defensively. And if you're going to complain about the refs, I get it.

I would do the same thing if those Celtics. But just know that the reason the Spurs won that game was their defense was out of control of the second half. I thought it went higher and higher and higher. And it was even like, they were trapping towns with two guys, getting over to the corner guy, getting over to the corner pass to the other side.

It was fucking crazy to watch. So I think that's fair, right? The defense won the game. Completely connected, completely on a string. And I'll say this too for the Spurs. It's not a coincidence that Julian Champany is not on the floor for critical stretches of the fourth quarter. He's like the closest thing that Jalen Brunson has to a target out there.

Yeah. I thought even he did fine. And really across the board, the Spurs in switches were so competitive and so physical with Brunson where, yeah, he's going to get his points. And like, Jalen Brunson has become one of the most inevitable scores in the league. But they did such a great job with the high pickup point, with the constant pressure,

just wearing down, wearing down, not just him, but the flow of the offense. And the Knicks are better than pretty much anybody at continuing to find stuff late in the clock. But if you just make them pull rabbits out of the hat over and over and over,

eventually they're going to come up empty. Yeah, after the second quarter, you have OG and Hart have 30 points combined. They're 10 for 12. Yeah. The Knicks are up seven. And it felt like they only played well for like five minutes.

And I'm at halftime going, holy shit. Like, this is going to be a sweep. Because there's, I was talking to somebody today who mentioned the Spurs Lakers 2001, where first two games are in in San Antonio, I think. Really close games. Spurs lost both of them. And then in the last two games, the Lakers just descended and pummeled them and kicked their ass. And the question is like, are we going this way?

Or we go in, you know, the 77 Blazers come back way. I did a thing on my pod yesterday about when a series flips, usually there's some sort of trigger for the flip. What was the trigger tonight for you? What changed other than the Spurs just actually took care of business in the fourth quarter? Did you feel like something was different about the game? I think a lot of it was the Spurs offense. I think it wasn't constant.

And I don't think the Spurs were going to be that kind of team. team in the series at any point. The Knicks defense is too good. The Spurs are still too young and a little bit imprecise. But I thought they did a great job really establishing and looking for and being patient with getting Wemby around the basket early, with being a little bit more deliberate as far as what the Knicks were giving up on the weak side, like we mentioned earlier. And then also, like, there were just moments in this game where for the first time all series,

it felt like the Knicks defense was actually behind in its rotation, where the Spurs were getting ahead of it and you could tell the Knicks were just like a step or a row. entire rotation behind and guys were getting pretty clean, wide open shots because of the spurs ball movement. That felt really new. And that's the kind of thing where sometimes over the course of a series, you just pick up on the patterns, right? Of like how teams are defending, how they're rotating, what they're giving up. I think the spurs might be a little more in tune with that right now, but even that stuff can change pretty quickly. I agree with everything you said, I would add this. It felt like after playing this Nick style for two games, they did a much

better job on the fast break transition stuff tonight. That they just were more ready for it. It felt like they were back. And it just felt like the Knicks, even though the game was more high scoring, it felt like the shots and the points the NICs were getting were just kind of harder shots. Like Ananoian Heart,

they were basically allowing a shoot. If I'm in the Spurs, and I'm looking at that second half especially, I thought they missed a lot of wide open shots. I don't know what the, what were they, 12 for 36 from, 12 for 34 from three of the spurs. How many of those were contested?

Like, Harper missed. I don't know how many threes did Harper take. He took one for eight, right? Fox was 0 for five. So it's 13 threes. I bet 12 of those were wide open. And so castles too. Like they're giving all three of those guards a lot of room to fire if they want to.

Yeah. So if I'm the spurs, I'm like, dude, we won that game and we didn't even hit all the open threes we have. We actually have a level to go higher than the level we played. If I'm the next, I'm looking at the officiating. And maybe from a Brunson standpoint, so he was 35 minutes, but how do I not put as much miles on him during a game? I mean, part of it was his fault because when Castle, with that play reviewed when he knocked Brunson over, which was not a flagrant, but Castle really, Brunson really tried to sell it. And he kind of almost hurt himself with the exact Flapped flop.

Like, he flew back so hard. He, like, landed on his tailbone. It's like, oh, my God. This could be our first semi-flop injury. Not that Castle had been found him. But I think they have to figure that piece out. Let's talk about the crowd and the Trump stuff. So I knew a bunch of people out there.

They said definitely loud, crazy, especially end of the second quarter. And then some quiet moments, too. There's a lot of people at that game that probably, That might have been one of their few games of the year because of the prices, which I think we saw happen during the Warriors stretch as we hit the Curry era. That incredible old Warriors crowd would kind of shift and was still really good but not as good. They went from the Oracle Warriors to the VC Warriors pretty quickly. Pretty quickly.

Very different energy. Yeah. So the crowd seemed like it was good, but it wasn't, I didn't think the spurs were affected. And this was one of things I said last night. the OKC crowd where it's just, it's at this for three hours. Like, you're not going to beat that

from a loud standpoint. So atmosphere was great, but to me, the spurs, even though they're young, answered the questions. Like, we like it.

We're fine. We're here. And if anyone looked tense out of the gate, I would say it was the Knicks with some of the early turnovers. They took a minute to settle in, and they certainly did.

But the spurs didn't miss a beat. They seemed ready to compete. They seemed ready for it. We're not daunted by you know, celebrity row, all the pageantry with President Trump there. Like, I got to say, the getting booed so loudly mid-national anthem when they put Trump on the Jumbotron, I've never seen it before. I mean, God bless you, MSG.

Come on. We're really doing it. So the Knicks fans in general, I think, felt like they were invincible after game too. And this was this was the unnatural act that could flip the game. Not that Trump was going as much as the circus that comes with that and people having to get their hours and hours for the game and just basically disrupting the entire process of a finals game, which is usually pretty chaotic anyway.

We've both been to a bunch of finals. Like, it's abnormal. You have to get there super early. Everything's tougher. All the security stuff is way bigger. Like the warmups, there's a million people on the court. It already feels like a circus. So that definitely added it.

I did wonder if that was going to affect the flow of the game. What it seemed like to me, which you said earlier, was like the Knicks, I don't think they seemed nervous, but they had so much adrenaline. They almost didn't look like the Knicks for like the first quarter. Like they just seemed kind of overcharged. And then they settled down. But probably more out of character moments within this game for them

than at any point in this series so far. And so if you're thinking that this could be a sea change moment for the Spurs, that would be the proof of it right there that you've finally kind of rattled this seemingly unrattelable team. Well, they know they have six guys they can trust. They have figured out this Wemby timeout strategy to kind of keep them on the floor

a little bit more when it actually matters. They know they're getting wide open threes. So I think they, now they're just going to and they used, they did some stuff with towns that I thought was different than what they did the first two games. They did use castle on them. Yep. They tried Brian on them a couple of.

times. They tried different people. They trapped them. It seemed to me like they kept trying to mix things up on him so that he never felt really comfortable. The Bridges thing was huge for them, though, because he got the two fouls almost immediately, never got going, 28 minutes, two points. And that was their best, you know, their best shooter. Which game was that? Game one or game two? He had that one. I think he was great in game two, too, too as well, though, like playing with the bench and gave them a really critical lift in that one. Like, they need McHale Bridges. I know that's a pretty straightforward thing to say, but particularly during those stretches

where Brunson and or towns are out, he's one of their most reliable ball handlers. It can't all be Jose Alvarado and somehow Jordan Clarkson. I'm still shocked that we got honest to goodness, positive Jordan Clarkson minutes in the NBA finals. LeBron James couldn't get that out of him in the finals, yet here the Knicks are.

I wouldn't bet on that happening again. Like they need Mikhail in those stretches more than anything to be a ball handler, to be a shooter, to be a facilitator for their offense, too. Two days from now we're playing again Wednesday. Who does that help more? I don't know. Do you see a tilting advantage just based on that timeline? I feel like that's a pretty neutral one.

The only thing I would say is the Wemby piece, just from what we saw in the last series, when there was the one-day rest between the games. Like he had a couple games in that OKC series, which were just strange, where he just seemed Yeah. Like he had concrete sneakers on. I thought he was incredible. I mean, we probably should have talked about him earlier than just now. I thought he was really good today.

Like he was, because the Knicks now know not to challenge him on certain things. So whatever, he had three blocks. But they're just so aware of him at all times. And I thought he was prowling. They really figured out a way to kind of unleash him all over the place. They were hiding them on different guys. I think they learned their lesson with trying not to put him out 25 feet from the basket on towns too much.

And then offensively, he was near the basket in the first three quarters way more than than he used to be. So I thought he actually could have had even more than 32 points. He missed. They had the three taken away. He missed a couple shots around. That easily could have been a 40-point game for him. I think not only the timeout stuff you mentioned in terms of just finding ways to

keep him on the floor for longer stretches, but finding ways to decrease how much he has to do all the time. It turned out to be really important. You saw the Spurs mix in a little zone. You saw him like experiment, which is like, what happens if we have Wembeon? Landry Shamid in the corner. Mikhail Bridges in the corner. O.G.N. and Obie in the corner.

How do we keep him out of the action? And then on offense, how do we make it so that when he goes to set a screen, he doesn't have to go from the block all the way up to half court every single time to set a high ball screen because Stefan Castle is having a hard time getting it across the line or whatever? Like, those are little things. But when you pile him up over 40 minutes, all of a sudden, you're fresher in the fourth quarter. All of a sudden, he has more to give you down the stretch, and he can be more assertive getting to the basket over and over and over,

because you make these other parts of his life a little bit easier. Brunson, 83 points, 81 shots in three games. It's pretty fucking good. I did find myself a little surprised by Kat has been awesome, but the prevalence of Carl Anthony Towns should be the finals MVP if the series, ended today coming off of one and two. I get it. I understand the logic. I just don't know how we fall into it so soon after like the Andre Iguodala Steph stuff. Or it's like, do you reward the guy who drafts off the attention or do you reward the guy who creates the attention? And Jalen Brunson draws everyone's eyes, everyone's focus when he's on the floor. Like he's scoring this much

despite being clearly the number one item in the scouting report and getting all of the defensive focus, but also the traps that we've seen throughout this series. I don't know how he does this, frankly. And I remain just shocked and amazed at how impressive he is night to night. You were preaching to the choir, Rob Mahoney. I'm glad. On two topics. One, look, I know we all have to make content.

We all have to come up with angles and do topics. We cannot have segments about who's the finals MVP after two games. In a four, in a game where you have to win four to win the series. Not to mention the series might extend past four games. It's unacceptable. You could say, wow, Towns is playing like a finals MVP, but you just can't do it. So that's one thing. Just stop.

I don't want to hear it. I don't want to engage with it. Stop. Second, what you just said about Brunson and the Curriegadala thing is one of my passion points in life. The best part should always win finals MVP unless something fucking crazy happened. Yeah. Right.

If, like, Curry Aguedaal is a good example. And I think Curry should have won it either way. But it's like, yeah, all they're doing is worrying about him for six games. There's all of these positive effects that just come from having this guy that's this good out there. You have to be the NBA. I felt the same way about Tatum two years ago. Yeah. Brown took it, but Tatum did the most on the Celtics.

Like, he should have won finals MVP. He was the best guy in the deciding game. and had the biggest responsibility. And for some, you know, the dumbest was when Parker won in 07. I think that one actually makes me matter than Iguada, where Duncan's just the best guy. He's the reason they won the title.

He's the reason they've, and but Parker had a hot series against a crappy finals team. And it's like, our finals MVP is Tony Parker. It's like, Tim Duncan's the most important guy in the league. What are we doing? That's probably some offense defense bias, too, with, you know,

like the guard who's driving a lot of stuff naturally gets a lot of attention, as those things go. So there's a lot in play with Tony Parker for sure. Yeah. Let's settle it now. Brunson and Wemby are the two best guys in this series. And whoever wins, they should win the MVP.

I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Carl Towns, I'm not trying to drag Cather the mud. He's been amazing. I thought he was great defensive league in today, despite Wemby getting some impressive numbers. I don't think he has scored a basket in the fourth quarter for the entire series yet. Is that true?

Certainly scoreless in the fourth tonight. And I believe he was in games one and two as well. Well, ironically, finals MVP has not moved. Brunson and Wembe are the two favorites. Brunson's even. For the series itself, the Knicks are now minus 184 on Fandul. So game four Wednesday night, which was going to be exciting either way. It was either going to be the classic, somebody's up to one, game fours are always amazing.

They're usually my favorite game of the series unless there's a game seven. So we either had the Knicks trying to win their first finals in 53 years or we have this awesome setup for Game 4. If you had to guess the biggest tweak one of the two teams is going to make, what is it? Because I'd probably leaning toward the next side on the tweak. I don't know that we're going to see any dramatic tweaks, though. You think we're in? These are our cards? I think these are mostly the cards.

I think the lineups are going to remain the same. I think the coverages and the matchups are going to remain mostly the same. I think the coverages and the matchups are going to remain mostly the same. It's going to be little stuff, right? It's going to be like one little tweak in this game that I thought made a big difference was in the first quarter especially when Wembe would go up to set ball screens, he would actually set a screen versus doing his little like, I'm going to hold out my hands and sort of hip-check you maneuver.

And it turns out making contact on a screen really helps. And then all of a sudden the spurs, the guards are getting downhill and it's driving the entire offense. So there's going to be stuff like that, right? Like little things that pop on film. in that regard, I would think for the Knicks specifically, it is how do you create some airspace for Kat during those stretches where the offense gums up? How do you make it so?

I mean, this is what's hard when you want to give the ball to towns and run all this off ball action that's been working so well for the Knicks in these playoffs. If the defense and the spurs are good enough to do this can somehow batten down all the hatches and keep all those guys under wraps, you're just like bleeding clock as he stands there with the ball sometimes. And so it's like, how do you get a little more free and clear

movement where there's something popping up and you're not driving all of those possessions into 20 plus seconds on the shot clock. Yeah, that makes sense. I would say, sham it at 23 minutes tonight was a minus 20, was one for eight, one for seven from three. Probably a quicker trigger for him next time would be,

I was really surprised Bridges they didn't play more in the fourth quarter. And I actually thought he had five fouls. And I was texting with Nick's fan, friend of mine who said he had five. And I looked it up and he had four and he finished with four. But I don't know,

I think game four to me is a ride with our guys game. All five of those guys are going to be at 40 or around 40 minutes with, and then the bench will fill in the rest. But I think that's, that would be my prediction with that, especially two days off and third a Saturday game.

I think it makes total sense to ride with your guys at this point. I would just argue that Landry Shammett is one of their guys. Like, he's a hero of New York. He's earned the right to be on the floor in these moments. And yeah, this was his best game by any stretch, but they do need his gravity. They do need the attention that he draws. Mikhail can do a lot of those things too. And so if that's the tradeoff, yeah, I agree. It can be a little steep sometimes. So what would you tell the Nick fans right now,

who were up 2-0 in the finals coming off a miracle winning game two with an emotional game three that was the hardest ticket, probably in the history of the NBA, I'm guessing? And now it's 2-1. and game four is on Wednesday and all those old skeletons are starting to pick out of the poltergeist pull again. What would be, how would you calm them down? I would tell the Knicks, not that they need this reassurance,

but in any game, in any close game, I expect them to win. Like, I expect Jalen Brunson to pull every, like, crazy one-footed fade away that he needs to make

in order to keep these games competitive. OG and Ninobe hit a crazy corner three to trim this thing to win a bowl eight. The spurs needed both the Castle Jumper and the Fox jumper just to win this one. Yes, the margins are thin. Yes, crazy things can happen

under those circumstances. But every indicator says this is a very, very close clutch time kind of series and the Knicks are the clutch time kings of these playoffs. So what reason would we have to doubt them even after a game like this?

That's fair. And if I'm the Spurs, my Spurs fans, I know a few of them too. The series should be one and a half to one and a half. I don't think it works that way. Well, it doesn't.

So you lost a half. You're down to one. Yeah. You were of double figures in all three games. You had the lead in the last two minutes of all three games. Your young team actually kind of came through with some big moments and ramped up the defense in a really, really special way in the second half and feels like it's getting better and is now used to the speed of the Knicks and the finals and just all of it.

And seems like just in a better place than they were in game one when they just. just seemed like, whoa, ho! The finals is fast. Wow! Look at this. I thought they handled the speed the right way today. So, if I'm this person, like, fuck it, man. We have five and seven at home, right?

We just need to get back to seven somehow. We just need two and two the next three and then seven's at our house. We just, we need a two-two, all road wins going into a game five. Like, that's all we can hope for at this point. What if that's ever happened? I would have. Oh, I guess that's happened in 77 because that's what, oh, no.

Yeah, that's what happened in 77. Portland won the second two. Oh, no, that was in Portland, though. Yeah, no, I don't think that's, I don't think that would ever have happened. Seems pretty unlikely. I mean, there have been plenty of, like, O2 series that have flipped in reverse course in the NBA finals. Like, Mikhail Bridges has been a part of one of them. You know, the Mavs did it against the heat in 06.

They were up 2O and blew that series. So it's like, it has happened. But usually you're home for the first part of the flip. Exactly. That's the thing. It's the all road wins for now three and potentially four games. But even that's getting ahead of ourselves. I've been saying this all playoffs, Rob.

I don't think home court matters like it used to, even though it's fun to go to the games. Even Mariska Hargatay's home court. Even when you have Larry David sitting next to Bobcraft and Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro. And then you have, you have Salome next to Spike Lee with San Diego. Shafty. This was a real like BS pod, rewatchables, murderers. Tina Faye was there. Yeah, there was incredible.

Tina Faye's next to Tracy Morgan. I thought for sure we'd get Laura Michaels tonight. Maybe for game four. I saw Irving Azoff under the basket. It was like all the OGs. And then you, you know, Dolan, who I think usually watches from the stands. But if Trump's like, I'm coming, it's the president. Yeah.

You kind of can't say no. No. So now he's in a suite. And I'm sure he's like, well, I would have better luck if I was in my seats. Getting cucked in your own building to go sit with Donald Trump. It's tough. It is tough. But I think from the home court standpoint, I don't know what's different about it. I always felt like when I was growing up, and especially like being a Celtic fan and some of the games we had, like I just felt like if it was a must-win game we were winning.

Yeah. And we could affect the refs. it just you would have the momentum. It was just the way it went. And the stats back it up. Like for years and years, it was 90, 95%. And now we see all this time, you're just going to somebody else's house

and you can win whatever you want. I don't really understand it. I don't know what is tilted. Other than clearly there's just like a lot of great competitive balance and talent around the league, but why that would explain the shift in home court advantage? I don't exactly know. Maybe it is just like travel has improved enough.

Is it the three pointers? I think the threes help. But this didn't feel like a game that was swung by Spurs hot shooting, you know? No, I'm just trying to think of all the different reasons that could swing. Three-pointers would be one. Yep. The travel being so much better, you know, than it was in the 70s, 80s and really through the 90s. The fact that we know more about our bodies when you're on the road and things to do and not do.

Yeah. Maybe don't have, you know, steak and fried chicken and cheeseburgers at 3.30 in the morning. Might be part of it. We know that stuff. You think DoorDash has saved? or has squashed home court advantage. It's too reliable to get a Chapoelay bowl now. You don't have to worry about the Michael Jordan

stomach virus from pizza anymore. Right. Well, you have that. And then you have, you know, when you think about the way all the shooting motions were different in the 70s and 80s

and the guys doing this. And now everybody's off an assembly line with the way they shoot. That's true. So the technique is more reliable than it used to be. I mean, the thing that almost killed the spurs tonight with the free throws.

Oh my gosh. And yet down the stretch, they went 10 for 10. And then Castle, I wish we had mentioned this earlier, we've both been in the building when somebody has huge, huge free throws. The most famous ones I ever remember from this

was the two that Kauai had right before the Ray Allen shot. Oh, yeah. And it's the first one he made the second one. But sometimes when it's like you have to make both of them and you're on the road, and the crowd can go to this level

and it almost feels like they're invading the guy's body. It's so loud. And when you're in there watching and you're like, I don't understand how he's going to make these. Like this is the most pressure I've ever seen anyone in my life. And Castle, who they ran the play for, they embedded the Fox. He threw it right back to Castle.

That was their guy. And he fucking drained him. And it was awesome. I feel like we have mentioned a lot, the shot that he hit to kind of like give the spurs the winning cushion. And maybe not enough about, I mean, his physicality on these drives is unbelievable.

And he's so elusive. Like he's kind of constantly in a state of Euro step as he gets to the basket. Like always decelerating, always kind of challenging you to stay down and not jump so he can bait you into a foul. I just thought his drives were exceptional,

especially in the first half, but late they needed him too. Like they needed somebody who could bust through even tough competitive perimeter defense. And when the game is officiated this way, Stefan Kascon absolutely do that. Like he will dish out as much punishment as he will take.

And he will somehow convert. a lot of those opportunities. He does this one move that I'm not positive I've ever seen anybody do consistently before. When he goes right, he drives right in the chest and takes a step and usually you stop because there's a guy there. Yep.

But then he just takes like this delayed second step and just puts it up anyway. And like one time they blocked it today, but there are other times when it just, I don't know how he does it. But he's just, you can't, he's almost like a running back who moves the line forward

every time he goes into the line. on those drives, he's never losing the contact. He's always like going toward the basket. I thought he was great today. I was a little concerned about his 2011-12 range, Westbrook range, kind of. He's got a little of that. Little like, I got this guys. And it's like, no, no, not this time.

You know, but he was great today. And not just that I got this guys, but he is good right now. He's playing tremendous defense on Brunson in particular on the ball, but like really, really high-level stuff. and he'll come up with huge rebounds, huge hustle plays. He's doing all that. He will also, at one point in literally every game, commit one of the dumbest fouls against the three-point shooter you have ever seen in your life.

And so you just have to live with it and you just have to accept that in the balance, OG and Anobie is going to get three free throws, but you're going to get all this great defense and this great driving and this important scoring. He just does so much for them. Yeah, it's like I feel the same way about my dog Murf. We were having a great day today. Yeah.

preparing, I was preparing for rewatchables tomorrow, taping, preparing for this pod. It's a wonderful day. And then all of a sudden he just walked right into the pool. And it's like, why'd you do that? And he's like, I don't know. I don't know why I did it. But it was a special day and I didn't let it marred the day for me. There you go.

So, yeah, I think we hit everything. Prediction for game four? Do we have to if we've, we've just been wrong in this entire playoffs? I did not make an official prediction. I did bet on San Antonio today, but I had a Fandall bet, which I think I lost because I think Harper missed the steal. But I didn't, I honestly had genuinely had no idea it was going to happen today. There was like five different scenarios

than I would have believed all the scenarios, including San Antonio, just getting waxed. Yeah. And at halftime, I wasn't exactly racing to live bet the spurs, right, down seven. It felt like the Knicks kind of had it. So there'd be no Trump, it'll be a lot easier to get into game four. a lot less of a circus. And if on the Knicks, I'm hoping Wemby's a little more tired than he was today. Could be. If forced to pick,

I think the Knicks will win game four. I don't feel great about it. I think they will win game four. As someone who would love to see a two to two game five, I hope that's not the case. But I don't know. I have come to respect so much about the way New York answers, basically any challenge and their resourcefulness

in terms of their playmaking. and the way that they will tap into. I just fully expect Mikhaila Bridges to come up with like 18 critical points in game four and Kat to be a really important playmaker again. Landry Schamett's shooting to come back on track. It's just kind of what they've done. So if I have to choose,

I think that's what's probably going to happen. But honestly, who can trust any of our predictions at this point? Do we pour one out? I'm not going to actually pour one on my desk. For the Knicks, April 23rd was their last loss. It's now June 8th. June 8th, 15th anniversary of the day we launched Grantland, by the way. Shout out to June 8th.

Congrats. Thanks. No longer exists, but it was a great site that I love very much. But yeah, April 23rd to June 8th, legendary streak. This is not a prediction, but this is what I think will be the key to game for. I think that Spurs Open 3s are going to be even more opening game 4. I think from what you've seen when you look at, What do we have?

We had Fox O for five, Castle two for five, Harper, one for eight. Keldon Johnson wouldn't shoot any of them. Champany and Vessel were six for 11. I just think they give those guards, those threes, and play off the ball, go way under the picks. And guys, we don't think you can make these, knock them down for us.

And if the spurs knock them down, they're going to go back to two, and if they don't knock them down, they're going to down 3-1. Yeah. That is kind of the crunch when the spurs do play their three-guards. guards together. And they seem to like closing that way, at least for part of the fourth quarter in crunch time, if not the entire time. It's good ball handling. A lot of ball handling. But if all three of those guards are not defended, and I would say at minimum, they're not defended in the way

that Visell and Champany are. Like, the Knicks hug those shooters a little bit more than they do Fox and Harper and Castle. But having two of those guys off the ball, if you're going to play all three guards together, that's a lot of crunch. I don't think it's an accident that the spurs, even though they have all that ball handling and they were able to make some things happen, also didn't have any real flow in terms of like getting an actual downhill drive that then kicked out into something on a lot of those possessions. And they were playing way off Harper was kind of in front of the Knicks bench down the stretch. They were just playing way off him and they didn't really care if he shot and they wanted to funnel him toward towns anyway.

Spurs only had eight turnovers and 28 assists. That's the one. I think the 16 turnovers in game two, all that driving, all of that play, like working through pressure, eight turnovers is just unbelievable stuff Shout out to Steve Kerr, who loves nothing more than a lot of assists and low turnovers on a box score. I'm sure he's going to look at this tomorrow and be like, wow, 28 and 8. That's wonderful. I love it. But yeah, if they're going to have less than 10 turnovers and they're going to have 32

free throws, you're probably going to send them to a win. All right, Rob Mahoney. What TV show? What TV show? Oh, Doc Rivers texted me and wanted to mention that they finally pulled the wimbi on Josh Hart that he was pushing for that full series. What TV show should we watch between game three and game four? Definitely Widows Bay, which is great, although it seems like you have more mixed

impressions so far. I'm going to give it one more episode. I'm two in. You know what's starting right now, though, that definitely has my attention is this Cape Fear remake on Apple TV. Saw both. Saw both episodes. Oh, just you wait for three. Yeah? Things are getting very spicy, very interesting. If you like a little bit of trash in your TV, which Cape Fear certainly is, I just think you're going to have a great sweaty Georgian time with it. So come along for the ride for that. Well, we're doing From Hell rewatchables right now.

And the show does check some of my boxes. Most importantly, the really stupid either father, mother, or both. And in this case, both of them are really stupid and just seem oblivious to a lot of things that are happening, which I always enjoy. You got dumb parents. You got outright stalking. you have a lot of like ominous dead animals. I mean, what more could you ask?

You've severed digits. Yeah, it's good. I would, when I saw they were making it, I was like, ah, why? Why are we? Come on. Why are we? But then Scorsese is an EP. Yeah.

They got, they got Anton Schengar, is the lead guy. Good to see him again. He must have survived the car accident. But yeah, no, it was good. I liked the first two episodes. All right, Rob Mahoney. This was a true pleasure and a privilege to stay up late with you after game three.

We're going to take a break and we're going to come back with your friend Kyle Mann. We're going to talk a little NBA draft right after this. This episode is brought to you by Mickelob Ultra, the official beer partner

of the NBA. My favorite NBA finals moment ever. I have two. One was when I was six years old and I went to the famous triple overtime game in 1976, Boston versus Phoenix,

the Celtics won and became, I still think the most famous NBA game of all time. It's either that or one of the Jordan games. I like to claim it as the most famous since I was there. But the other one was game 5, 1904 finals, 2-2, Lakers Celtics. And it is so hot in the Boston Garden that people are passing out in the stands, everyone's sweating all over the place. The Lakers are taking oxygen on the bench and Larry Bird unfaced. I think he had 35 points, 20 rebounds. It was just

awesome and won the game, gave them a 3-2 lead. They won in 7. And that is my favorite final game ever. There's a lot of great moments. I was lucky to be there, by the way. There's a lot of great moments in the court, but the best ones are served cold, just like Miklob Ultra, right here. A Superior Light Beer that's only 95 calories. Yeah, 95 calories. Even better, they're getting people closer to the game with a chance to win tickets, custom merch, and much more. Mickelope Ultra Superior is worth playing for, enter now at Micklobeultra.com slash courtside. Michaelob Ultra Courtside 2526, no purchase necessary, open to U.S. Residence 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2025 ends on June 30th, 20206.

Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelope ultra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes and details. It's finally here, the NBA finals, Spurs versus Nix. Each game, I've been looking at the matchups and sharing my favorite picks from Fandall Sportsbook on my Twitter feed. usually a same game parlay, usually tied to, if you think one of the sides is going to win, here is what I think the roadmap would be.

So we'll see. I definitely have 48 hours to think about what happened in game three and how that might affect game four. Stay tuned on Wednesday for the pick. When I bet, I bet with Fandul a brand I trust, it's easy to build NBA bets on Fandle. Super duper easy. Easier each year. 2006, the easiest year it's ever been.

I know I'm getting great odds, payouts on my parlies, boosts every day, and I'll get my winnings instantly. Fandual play your game. All right, Jay Kyle, man, is here from the Ringer. He is on the Ringer NBA show. He is one of the many good people that help with our Ringer NBA draft guide, which I love. We're two weeks away, plus a day, Kyle, man.

This is some draft. I've changed my opinion on the order of the top four 17 times. I have no idea who's going fifth or picking fifth. I have no idea what OKC is going to do with 12 and 17. We have no idea if the bucks are going to have 10 and 13 if they trade Yonnes in time. What's the biggest up in the air subplot to you that's not one of the top four picks? Oh, I mean, yeah, you said you've changed yours at 17. I'm probably going to, if I can be shy of like 25 changes at the top, that'll be good.

but aside from that, I can't, because I'm going to state some strong opinions that I have that might still change. I think the biggest thing, and I think this is probably, you've been doing this longer than I have, but inevitably, you start thinking about the playoff lens. Specifically, if you think of, you know, being in the NBA as, you know, a poker table where there's a buy-in, you know, like what does it cost to sit down at this table? What does it take? I think that these playoffs, specifically, like, if you just watch the Thunder and the Spurs and you imagine, those teams are going to be around for how long, some form of those teams dominated by these big guards, these incredible rangy bigs. I think how this affects these guards at the top, because we have

talked about this assumed order where we're like, well, you know, the next guys that you got to take. And you look at every mock draft, it's like, you got to take one of those guards. You have to do it. There's a gun to your head. And the more that I watch these playoffs, and I see guys like, She, you know, Shea or Stefan Castle or Dylan Harper bulldozing every living, breathing human in front of him. I'm like, who is not going to get picked on is a question that I've asked myself a lot. When I watch these guys, when I watch a Kingston Fleming's, who I love, when I watch a LaBaron Phelon, who I love, when I watch a Darius Acuff, you know, who I like a lot. I have problems with Acuff we can talk about.

But that's the biggest thing I've been thinking about is like, who's not going to get picked on? Because in the playoffs, man, the links of your chain, if you have one that's, week, you get a big problem. And that's kind of what's been on my mind with these guards lately. And also, where have we gone wrong in the past? And I think Castle is a great example, where you only have one year to watch a guy. He's on a great team that didn't really need his offense that much. He was relegated to a role. People overlooked some stuff with him, especially the pedigree, and he ends up going forth, which is just nuts when you go back and you look at that draft now. It's insane. I look at Mara like that.

the center, which I've seen in different mock drafts. He'll be in like the mid-teens in some. And like people will be like, well, I just don't think there's any way he's not a top 10 pick with what we're watching with how many guards are in this draft. And you can't tell me that every team needs a guard. At some point, somebody from 8 to 10 is either that's picking in those spots or is going to try to trade up to those spots because they don't really need a guard. Like OKC is a great example.

OKC doesn't need another guard. But they need somebody like Mara is somebody that could actually potentially play for them and give them Hartenstein insurance. So I just feel like he's going 8 to 10. And I feel like one of these guards is going to drop because this is what we've seen. The cluster theory. I've seen five. I looked at a mock today. I think it was Sam Vesceny on a, is Vescini or Vassini?

I'm sorry, Sam. Unless he hasn't corrected me his friend three years. Sam, that's my pronunciation, dyslexia. San Bacini had filing, I think, dropping out of the top 15, it's going to happen with one of these point guards,

and we're going to think it's crazy when it happens. Yeah. Yeah. Well, think about it. How many teams are like, all right, this is an awesome draft.

This is a real pedigree pick, and I don't need a guard. Why do I have to take Phylon? I don't know. I just think weird stuff's going to happen when we get out of the top four. And that's before we get into all the trade-up,

trade-down stuff, which I think is really in play this year. Well, this might interest you because you're one of the basketball reference filter, you know, aficionados. I know you love to go on these dives. I did. I went on last five playoffs. So going back to, you know,

the Warriors, sorry to bring this up, but the Warriors went over the Celtics in 22. I hope I'm not fired for doing that. But over 100 minutes played for guards who are 6-2 or under. Some of these guys were listed at like 6'4, and we saw that there was some

you know, smoke and mirrors with that. But the players who are productive at that size in the playoffs for multiple games for a heavy minute load, it's not a long list. You're talking about guys who kind of get cups of coffee who are quick in and outs. I mean, you could go down into the shrewders, into the Monta Morris's, into the, you know, Fred Van Bleeves. But really, you're talking about high impact players. It's Steph Curry, obviously. It's Peyton Pritchard, who, you know, Jalen Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, Tyrese, John Morant. And if you kind of go through and look at those guys, it's like, well, what's the common denominator there. I think it's that you, if you're going to be that size, you need to have a

superpower. I mean, and the question I've been asking myself is like, could we see those superpowers when these guys were coming out or did we just miss them? You know, with Brunson, I think there were some things that we missed, even though I liked him, like some of the things that were going to translate for him. Peyton Pritchard, I think I missed a lot with him, his ball handling. You as a Celtics fan, his handling really is his superpower, right? He's become a good shooter. Is there anything else that you would say? I would say the one-on-one skills. I just think we fucked up the Brunson thing.

And I'm 99.9% sure I went kind of haywire about it during the draft that he fell out of the first round. Just because he was just a pure, awesome point card. Like, he couldn't tell me he wasn't a rotation guy for somebody. And that just seemed like a classic overthink. But I see your point with the size, though. Curry, I wouldn't count because I think Curry is at least, I've stood next to him. He's at least six-three. I don't know what he's listed at, but I don't know.

He thought he was at least, I thought he was at least two inches taller than me. But I also feel like he's a little stronger. Like, I don't, A-Cuff to me is the one for this conversation. Because if you're taking him, you better think he is a really, really high-end, special offensive guard. That's the only way you can justify putting him in the top seven. You have to think he's like a 25, 8, 40% three-point shooter, really uncoverable at the end of games or teams are going to have to trap him. That would be like the roadmap for him being worth that pick because defensively it's not going to be there.

Well, I think the line of question you have to go into with ACuff is we all kind of know about the defensive stuff. That's been well documented. If you watch him, you could pick at him for the physical issues where it's like I've kind of wondered if he's lateral. very mobile. If he's not like a super vertical athlete, things like that. He's going to get attacked. Brunson is good of a player.

Brunson's very competitive defensively and he still gets attacked. He does what he can. You kind of have to ask yourself, is this something that was a bug of this Arkansas team this past year where he carried one of the biggest offensive loads in the country? He was the only guy on their team that was capable of making a consistent, good decision. He ran that team.

And did he have to kind of rest on, on defense at times. DeBons, I kind of had the same thing going on at BYU. Or is it something that he could just choose to, and we're overrating this, you know, we're maybe leaning into this too much. No, we're not overrating it. We're not overrating it. Just to ask some questions? Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's a fair question, but the question is, is the other stuff so good you just put it on the side?

Everybody's got some flaws, right? Castle, even Castle, who I love, has that kind of Westbrook side where he's a little out of control at the worst possible times, and that's his flaw. I get more worried about a guy like Brown. And Brown has creeped up. He's creeped up to five in the conversation for the Quippers. Because the quippers are basically like, we're not taking a point card. We just went all in on Garland.

So unless we trade back, it's either Wogler or Brown or Burris. It's going to be one of those three. And you're higher on Brown the most. you really like, I don't know, you seem like you at least really like the ceiling. Are you doing the Louisville thing to me? Well, you like the idea of him.

I just, but you also recognize the red flags. I've kind of like worked through my cautious optimism with him through this offseason because the regular season was just weird, man. I mean, like he was, you could go into the speculation about why that stuff happened. I'm not willing to like openly just like, if you're going to do that,

you have to, like, throw people personally under the bus. I'm not going to go that direction right now, but, like, if you watch him, his consistency is a shooter, can he get to the rim and score? I mean, those are the two basic things. And if you're going to be the player type that he is and have big struggles in that area,

and then also are you going to be, you know, vulnerable defensively? I think those three things are very much up at the air with him right now. And if you look at, I've compared him to, He's definitely in the like phylum of Anthony Simons and Keontay George for me, which is your face said a lot there. If he's going to be an inefficient skinny guard who can't get to the room

and he's streaky from three, that's an archetype that's, you're going to, at best, it'd be like the third score on a team, I think, right? It's hard to be the primary if you're going to be that type of player. My weakness is when I, and I feel like I've been good at evaluating the draft for over the years. I think I've had more hits than misses. My two weaknesses are when there's not enough kind of data slash tape on a guy and you're projecting,

like somebody like Wiseman. I just completely missed on Wiseman. There was basically didn't play any games and you're just basically looking at the prototype of him versus what he actually did. The other one that kills me over and over again is the raw talent could go either way guy. I just tend to discount those guys.

They make me nervous. Like to me, I would just, I know Burris is going to be good. I'm positive. I don't know how good he is. I don't know if he can be a lead guard that can run your offense because we would have said with Castle,

even the stuff he was doing in the two OKC games without Fox and with a compromise Harper, like I don't think anybody would have predicted he could have done that two years ago. And I wonder with Burris, like I know that's a like he's a prototypical too. Is he ever going to be able to beat people off the dribble?

I'm just betting on that dude. I'm betting on the competitiveness. I think he has the right size. and I think we always forget this with these young guys. Like the stuff they're missing now might not be stuff they're missing five years from now. You know, they're going to work on this and they're going to try to get better and better

at the things they're not good at. I'm betting on that guys. So if I'm the clippers and it's between Wogler and Burris, and I know Wogler has the higher pedigree, I would just rather trade picks with Sacramento pick up an asset and take Burris at 7. I think that's a smarter move. Yeah, if you look at these finals

and you look at the Western Conference Finals, I've circled back. I've liked Burry's the whole process, but I've felt pretty validated in liking him a lot and having him high watching these playoffs. Because I think if you look at how you're building teams, I mean, if you have any kind of a weakness, if you look at just even like the Knicks and the Spurs, the Spurs have a few weaknesses that the Knicks are picking at, you know? And the Spurs came into this series looking at the Knicks thinking there were some weaknesses that have turned out not to be. So I just think, and I've watched Burry's and looked at these series and thought to myself, I could see, I could have seen. seeing him logging big minutes, not just minutes, like being seriously on the floor a lot in that Thunder Spurs series or this finals. And if you look at some of these other guys, I'm not

sure about that with Mike L. Brown. You know, I'm not as sure about that with Darius. It could happen because Brunson is kind of in the same mold as Darius A Cuff. But I'm pretty sure about Burry's being on the floor. Me too. I'm all in on Burris. And A Cuff, the problem with him is you worry that 20 years from now, he's a Darius A Cuff was a problem. He's one of those guys. And he basically played in five playoff games the first five years of his career,

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I think the center, I was really in impressed by him in the tournament. I think his tape's really good. His passing is pretty special for his size. Mara? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, his passing is pretty special. Like, unusual. Um, I just like him. And if, like, if I'm at Atlanta at eight, I'm really thinking about it. Um, because I don't really, I just committed to, uh, I committed to Dyson 25 million a year. I paid Alexander Walker. I have Jalen Johnson. So at that point, I'm either, If I go back in and I re-sign McCollum, which I think they're probably going to do,

I don't really need a point guard combined with the fact that the point guard hit or miss rate is pretty high, whereas like a center, I felt the same way a couple years ago with, with Klingin, who everybody seemed just hesitant to take in the top 10 for some reason. It's like, why? This guy's, you know, this guy's potentially a premier rim defender and a really good rebounder. Like worst case scenario, this is a guy that's going to be a $25 million a year player if he pans out. And I feel the same way about Mara. I just can't see him dropping out of the top 10 with how few centers there are.

Yeah, he's one of those. There's this funny phenomenon that happens whenever phenomenon. It's just a funny thing that happens whenever I'm watching a player. Like today I was watching Bruce Thornton from Ohio State, who's a little puck scoring guard that you may learn about. You may not. He's one of these guys that may make it. but he's kind of a bowling ball. But they were playing Michigan,

and I was keeping an eye on Bruce Thornton, and I kept getting distracted by Mara. I was trying to focus on Thornton, but there was a play where Mara was on the short corner on the right side, and he got double-teamed, and he reached blind around the double team and whipped it with his left hand to the opposite corner on a dime. And I was just like, God, like, it's hard to focus when a 7-3.

And you're talking about Klingan. Mara's bigger than Klingin. He's huge. So we've entered this time too where, you know, I always say with Wimby, you can't fight fire with fire with him because there just is no one his size. But Mara is a better mover than I think he gets credit for. He tries to dunk everything. He's not, he's got kind of a, he's got kind of a shot put, you know, baby hook thing that he doesn't run the room. But he tries to dunk everything.

He's defensively really competitive. I think for the Hawks, you'd be presenting some like spacing, spacing questions because you'd have Daniel. out there and Jalen Johnson. Right. But they'd be big, and they would just kind of bludgeon people. So, I mean, and defensively, I think he's going to be pretty good. So I'm with Yomar. I haven't been in the teens right now, but that could change.

But how high before it becomes offensive to you? Like, anything higher than eight would be pretty stupid, I think, right? That'd be tough. I think eight sites, yeah, it's around there. Because there's, I mean, it's not a sure thing because we talked about Mala watch last year, who I had big reservations about. And it's like he had some moments this year, but it's not a sure thing with him. It's those guys how well they move in space because I think Klingin didn't get enough credit for how well he could sit down and move in space either.

So is Mar going to be that good? I'm not so sure. But it's tricky for those guys to survive in space. Better in college. Well, Phyllons, the guy is going to go five to seven picks later than he should and it's going to be stupid. He's going to have a big chip on his shoulder. I'm just telling people that's going to happen now. The Tennessee kid has been.

circulating in the top 10. And again, as I thought you were trying to provoke me over text with that the other day. Well, as always, these kids are right around the age of my son and my daughter. And I'm more sensitive than ever about being mean about NBA prospects. But like there was a Brooklyn story the other day about they might be interested in an A man as high as six. And I just think that would be insane. And I get it. It's pedigree from high school. He was one of the top guys. heading into college. Season wasn't as good as you thought, but I just,

I can't picture him in either of the three, either of the two conference finals we watch or the finals we're watching now. I just don't think he plays. No, yeah. Him getting, he's a perceived shot maker who's incredibly streaky.

Can he get to the spots he likes to get to? He's really, really rough around the rim. And I was shocked by that report. On the one hand, I was shocked. And when I saw who it was attributed to in terms of the team that was thinking about it, I was like, this makes no sense. I would not do this. Grated they're thinking that.

Okay, that makes sense. The thinking of putting him next to Yeager, who I like with conditions, like, I like Yeager in certain narrow conditions. Like, you're going to have a guy who can, and I want to get guys who are as unconditional as possible. Like, you would fit in as many situations that are possible. I don't want to have a role player that I have to have these very narrow circumstances that they work in.

And if I'm going to take five playmaking players who are all rough shooters one year and then take a six-nine guy who can't get to the rim and it's a shaky space spacer the next year, I don't understand, because that was in the tweet, wasn't it, that Yeager and Nate Ament, like, fit together? I don't see that at all. I don't think that makes sense at all. Don't use your picks this year to make up for some weird strategies of the year ago. I do think that's a trade-down team with OKC, though.

And I don't know what their appetite is for trading backwards. but if I could get 12 and 17 and I could get more stuff from OKC beyond that and basically make them pay 140 cents on the dollar, I would really think about that. Because I like this draft a lot. And I think, as we said, like, there's going to be a couple guys that fall. And at 12 and 17, you might get a guy who one guy, at least who ends up better than the guy at six. I normally don't like those trades, but I think this is such a unique draft.

As long as you're not trading out of the top four, anywhere from 517, like, who the fuck knows it's going to be like every other trap um the big things that are shifting is there's booze and romance in a real way now that he might end up just going first i think as everybody looks at these tapes and the advanced metrics the comparisons to guys from over the years it's just like all right maybe we don't overthink this this guy is a 23 and 11 in the pros for 10 straight years what's wrong with that Yeah, well, I was going to ask you, talk me through that your Friday night when I initially sent that to you and Tate and House where I was sitting over dinner and I just did like a thousand yard stair where I was thinking for a minute. My wife's, you know, waving her hand in front of my face.

Like, what are you thinking about? I was thinking about Boozer where I had this epiphany where I was like, man, if the Wizards want to be a serious team in short order and make all that. Not that you need to think about the players you have always, but in this case, you would check both boxes. He would make every player that they have right now better instantly, I think. he'd help Sarr. I think he'd make Trey Johnson, Kajon George,

Bob Carrington, all those dudes. He'd make them better. Well, I mean, that was the conclusion I came to. Initially, were you feeling that way

and then you came to it? Or how did that go down? I didn't love the March Madness watching him where it just felt like he was one of those, let me put my head down and ram into the door over and over again,

guys, right? Yeah. I didn't understand why he didn't have a 15-footer yet. But then the more I thought about it is, well, in three years from now, he probably will, right? So we've seen him be able to, like, bully his way to different spots.

We've seen him be able to shoot from distance. And he'll probably add the other thing. The playmaking, the rebounding, like, the feel for the game. Like, he's always in the right spots. And he's just, it's a weird thing to say, it's a weird thing to say as, like, a scouting report thing. But he just feels like a guy who's just been in big basketball games, like, his entire fucking life.

Like, and he's just seen it all. He's not a, you know, there's some. some late bloomer guys to make it. But in his case, like, I just don't think he's going to be phased. I could totally see him in the last month of basketball we watched and all of these different things. Like, you could argue, like, fuse on the spurs. That's the perfect guy you would want for them at the four next to Wemby, right?

So I've been thinking a lot because I do think DeBance is going to go first, regardless of how we try to talk the boozer thing. I just think he's going to go first. I think Danny's such a while. wild card at second. And there's no way to predict it. And it's going to come down. He's going to take all the input from everybody. But it's ultimately come down. He's going to be watching these guys and he's going to hone in on some sort of specific thing that he's been able to do over and over again. He did it with Tatum. He did it with Brown. He did it when he was going to take the rant.

Over and over again, he looks at like the high end talent guys and just is able to project them. and you would think it's going to happen with Peterson, but I think there's too many red flags. I think he's going to stay away from Peterson, and I could see him taking Boozer at 2 would be my, that would be like my Y-Ns-130 bet right now. I might be wrong. But I really think they're going to take Boozer.

I do. I can't explain it. I think they're going to take Boozer at too. You think the Jazz are going to take Boozer at 2? That would be interesting way based on what, because that would be going with what we were talking about, like just taking a guy because you like him because at three, four, five, the jazz, I mean, you went out of your way to get Jaron Jackson and you have Lowry Morganin,

you have Kessler, you have, you know, Ace Bailey. I was going to, thinking about Ace Bailey, though, what do you think the comparing contrast there is, like his situation last year at five? I mean, remember, it's easy to forget. And what did he do? They went for the talent, right? And they were just, they were like, yes, we know there's a lot of noise around that. Aange just as a way of just being like, I'm not.

I kind of feel like he has a way of not being as bothered by some of that stuff, right? Like he just kind of, weren't there kind of questions about Tatum having distraction around him too when he was coming in where people are like, I don't know. You know, you probably remember that better. But I feel like I remember hearing things about that with Tatum when he was coming in. Well, think about when they did the Tatum move. They already had Jalen Brown and they had Hayward. Right. So it's like, and when they did their trade down and they were going to take Tatum,

and it was like, well, this is weird. They're going to take another wing? How many wings do you need? But his attitude was this is where basketball is going. I don't think you can have enough wings. We're going to have awesome wings out there all the time. We'll have at least two. We'll play three together.

And that's how we're going to think. So that's why with the boozer thing, I can't shake the feeling. I have my gut that he's just going to be like, well, we have too many forwards and like we don't have enough guards. Well, is it a bad thing to have size and shooting all over the place and interchangeability. And, you know, if marketing would be the piece that I guess you would,

you could potentially trade or move or move for a guard. But I think it's way harder to find good forwards than good guards right now. Yeah. I mean, ball, yeah, forwards with the skills that Boozer has. The skilled forwards is a premium, you know. His dad also is, I don't know. Well, that's the other thing. They're under the hood with Boozer.

They're under the hood with Boozer and DeBancet. They know those kids. They know the families. It's like they, they know those guys would be happy in Utah, which is a whole other piece. And Peterson's like such a wildcard. And so the season he had was weird. What am I bringing in? What if he doesn't like it here?

What happened to him last year? What was that creatine thing? You know, if he takes Peterson, then that will make me think Peterson is going to be awesome. Because that would mean Danny's like, I've overlooked all these other red flags. I'm not going to take this guy that I know it's going to be good because I think this guy might be Kobe. Right. So if they take him second, I feel like he would have to have landed on that. And I know it's like his son's there, Austin, and the owner's there. I know it's not going to be Danny's call, but they're going to, he's too good at this. Like at some point, if he, if he's

convinced on a certain guy, that's going to, I think, be the guy they take. I think of the top three guys. I mean, Peterson's personality on, on his team and his dynamic with his teammate is obviously the most in question. And this year, you know, after the year that we just saw, boozer, you never hear a word about him as a teammate. DeBanza, I mean, DeBanza, I haven't heard anything like that. I mean, you know, I know his dad's really involved. He's a real no-nonsense dude. But I haven't heard anything like you just don't hear the same things about those two guys as opposed to Peterson.

So, I mean, Peterson is the most- And it's not like we're hearing bad stuff about Peterson. There's just like, this is a pick that could make or break. Well, I think Faults, who's a completely different story. different guys, a good prism to look at this. Like, you missed that false pick and don't take Tatum. That set you back five years, you know, and you're betting on somebody that wasn't physically 100% and, you know, maybe wasn't wired the same way Tatum was and it worked out the way it did. So with Peterson, I think the Peterson one is the toughest dilemma in a long time with the high school

tape versus what happened in the past year. And I don't know, I don't think there's a right answer. I don't think somebody can be five years from now. Like, I told you. told you, like, there's no way to know. It's too separate. Because that high school tape we've talked about is some of the best high school tape I've ever seen of a guard. And maybe Danny would watch that and go, ah. But the thing is, if Boozer goes two, is Memphis really going to take Peterson three?

Because that would be weird too. Like, I think that, I really think there's a chance Peterson go for. And we, and Gavoni was on somewhere, was saying like, Peterson is the best prospect in this draft, he should go first. I don't know. I could seem going forth, too. It's such a hard one to target. I'd go ahead and take him if I'm Memphis.

I mean, you think about Howard and Peterson together. Why not? What's the, is there something that you, what are you worried about with him? I mean, he could come in and be your best player the way he wants. They have some guys there already. I mean, if you think about eating at the five if he's healthy. Is it Wilson the most Memphis guy possible, other than maybe Boozer? I would say boozer is the most Memphis guy.

Both of those guys. I think Haycoff has a lot of Memphis to him too. Yeah. Wilson doesn't strike me. I mean, we're just, we're, you know,

putting the personality of our franchise on a guy. I mean, Wilson doesn't strike me as much as, as Memphis. But Wilson's the interesting one, because you'll hear people. Well,

I was talking about, the guy fucking gives a shit and tries his ass off. And that's like kind of the culture they've tried to build over the last 20 years. I think all four of these guys do. So it's the thing. It's just,

I think, you know, Peterson is... He can't say that about Peterson. That's, I mean, he was just leaving games and not coming back. Like, I don't know. I know weird shit was going on physically, but that's still a red flag for me. And I polled some people about the creatine thing, and they acted like that was not, not, kind of flimsy. I heard some mixed responses to that. Yeah.

He's the most talented shotmaker in the draft, and I think he's the most talented score in the draft. I don't, it's not close. But like we've talked about, you know, he, you can't just draft a guy for talent. Because if we were just drafting people for talent, it's your personality, your, how you jive with your teammates, all those things matter. You know, and so, you know, I watched in Kentucky at a high school event. I watched AJ and Darren go head to head. And Darren was better, like, pretty clearly, not even close.

I mean, kind of dominated. And you hear stories from people who have watched many of those matchups and said Darren won every single thing. time. What do you think about that? You know, it's like he's, he's going to be an elite dribble pull-up shooter. I think he'll be able to play off the ball. He is great middle game. He's a great athlete. Is he like a super duper elite athlete? I don't know, but he's a very good one. And I think he's a good passer. I think at times guys have to make shots for your numbers to look good at times. Sounds like you're back in on him. Well, this is, this is the, this is the maddening thing about

this top four is that I have gone back and forth over and over again. Right now I'm kind of sitting it, I kind of think I would take Boozer 1. I know House wants his shot making, you know, sexy score. Something to be excited about for the future. I think the most, I'll say it again, I think the most efficient direct straight line way for the Washington Wizards to be a great basketball team is to take Boozer first. And I think they'd be good.

They'd be serious. They'd be like playing possibly by next year. I think that could be possible for them. Wow. You don't agree. No, DeBanza reclass. I'm at the mode now with the research where I'm like doing reclassifying research, how DeBancor reclassified after eighth grade.

And he's actually, I think he's 10 or 11 months older than Flagg? I think they're like a month apart. Is that what it is? Hold on. Yeah. So flag flags December 2006. Oh, you're right. Flagg.

August. Flags a month older than DeBanson. Yes. That's what it is. Okay. Do you worry about that much, though? Because I'm, you know, as a parent, these little boys, I mean, you know, we, do you have that conversation about when you start? Because I used to think that was a big deal and you talk with their kindergarten teachers.

It's just lamer than you think. It's like some people, I mean, if you think your son's going to be an athlete, I guess it depends on when they move them from grade to grade. But I don't know. Like Burry's is a little bit older. That doesn't. He is. Burry's a second year guy.

But people are holding that against Burry's. If he were a sophomore, would you give a shit? Like, I just don't, I don't care about that. Like, you know, it's not like they're geriatric, man. I didn't say I cared either way. I'm saying I'm at the point of the research where I'm doing the deep dive on other guys that have reclassified over the years. And it's like, and it's like, oh, Josh Jackson.

He was a reclassifier. I mean, Caleb's more similar to Josh Jackson, right? I mean, or not Josh Jackson. I'm thinking of Josh. Smith, just from the hawks, a little similarity there. This episode is brought to you by Activia. You might already be eating yogurt, but not all yogurts are created equal. Activia contains over one billion probiotics per serving to survive and reach the gut alive.

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Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. Well, regardless. I would be excited to have the fourth pick of this draft. And I don't normally say that because you're getting the chip on the shoulder guy and other people are making the decision for you. And you might end up with the best guy anyway. And this has to be one of the only drafts I can remember like that.

Like I wouldn't even felt that way with the Palo-Cet-Jabari draft. This one, it's like, fuck, you might be, you might be all right at four. Washington taking boozer at one would be the funniest outcome. for a variety of reasons, not to mention the bansett going to Utah too immediately. And then nobody knowing what's going to happen after that. Your predictions, 1 through 4 right now, two weeks away. What do you have?

What will happen? What will happen? Not my opinion. Your prediction of the top four. I think AJ will go first. I think the jazz will take Peterson. I've heard they like Peterson. I've heard Danny likes Peterson.

I mean, we'll see how credible that is. I don't believe that because I don't, Danny doesn't reveal anything. Okay. And then, let's see. So Peterson, Utah, and then you would have Boozer third to Memphis. Yes, he makes so much sense with the Grizzlies, too. I mean, that's an unbelievable outcome for Memphis. Coward, Boozer, Eadie, Cam Spencer, like that.

It's hilarious that I'm saying Cam Spencer fourth. But, no, I mean, they got an interesting group of guys. Like, I think that'd be fun. And then Caleb with the Bulls is, that's a blast. I like it. Caleb with the Bulls is really fun, right? Him, Buzellas, and Giddy just kind of going up and down. Unfortunately, all the guards that they let go in February would not be there.

What about our guy, Yaxel at 11 with Golden State? He might not make it to 11. I've heard, I mean, I've heard talk of him as high. is like seven. So, I mean, that could, I've checked Sam's latest one. I didn't know where he had him, but people like, he would fit, they have a lot of fours. I mean, that's, that's the thing with Golden State. He could shoot the ball. He would fit the way that they like to play. I could see that happening. Because that's your prediction. No, I was thinking Mara would be a great one for them if they ended up with 11, right? Because the passing to me makes it makes me think that the passing in the

pedigree of being in big games makes me wonder if that's fit with them. Yeah, and you have, you have to think about who you're going against because, you know, they do think they have a chance to get LeBron in July, which I think they will. That's still my prediction. I've stood by it for two months.

Then you have to think like, well, what do we need Yaxel for if we're going to have LeBron playing like that same kind of three, four type of minutes. Right. So, anybody dropping for you, Fleming's. Is there a chance he drops out of the top 10 or is he right where he was before?

He's climbing for me, actually. I liked a lot of this stuff with him. And at the end of the day, you bet on people, that's kind of that gets lost in this. You know, these guys, these guys are as much as people love to throw the analytics out there and, you know, live life in a spreadsheet when it comes to the draft. You listen to Kings and Fleming's talk. I've just been blown away impressed with how sophisticated he is. I'll say who he reminds me of a little bit. It's not one to one,

but he gives me some real Halliburton vibes when I listen to that kid talk. And you look at the way he gets on and off the ball, the speed, they're like, we're not quite sure how he scores at the next level stuff that was talked about. He's not the same level of passer. The odd shot, there are a lot of parallels between,

those two guys. And he just seems like he'd just be a quality ad. He's really strong. He might get picked on, but I like Kingston Fleming's. He's climbing for me. People like Johnson, too, is the other one that everybody likes on the interviews and the workouts, who seems like he's climbed into the mid-teens. And then Lopez has dropped. Lopez was being thrown around in like that 7-11 range for a brief second and now. It seems like he's out of the lottery. Well, we'll see what happens. Maybe next week, come back on. We could just be. discuss again. Okay.

We'll see if anything changes. This is right around, I feel like there's going to be a big trade too soon because like Janice, I just, I don't think that gets super close to the draft. My guess is if there's a big trade who would probably be after game four,

before game five. I think the league likes to clear out the first four games of the finals and it's kind of a wink-wink with the teams. But I feel like if there's going to be a big trade, I could see it be closer to the end this week. And then, you know, Milwaukee having a chance to get potentially 10 and 13, not to mention some of those other Miami guys. Like, that's not bad in this draft. They might,

you know, they had two swings at it here. The other one that I forgot was that Charlotte has 14 and 18. That's a big deal. Right. Especially with the guys who might be there. Yeah. So you could either say, fuck it. We'll just stay here and we'll get two swings of this or try to move up if you're super excited about somebody. All right, Kyle, man. We'll see how this goes. Um, You've been enjoying the playoffs? Oh, my God. We're recording this before game three. A minus B plus.

What's your grade for the playoffs? I would say my excitement level specifically for, you know, these last three series has been up there with some of the my highest excitement. This finals in particular, I'm just like moonwalking around during the day. I just can't wait just because I don't, I'm not a fan of either team, so I have nothing to lose and I just get to enjoy it. Yeah, it's been, it's been great. I think for me, though, it's been really fun to watch the Knicks and San Antonio just as basketball teams for different reasons.

The Knicks, because they've played so beautifully together. And San Antonio, I just like the guys in their team. I really enjoy the experience of watching them, which I haven't always said with the contenders, you know. I thought of something on a walk today that I wanted to run by you because I think you mentioned it in the mailbag. It's really strange that, like, the top six guys, I went back. was looking at the teams. We have young cores where guys are like really clustered together in terms of age. You the historian, how common is it to have a core that is all hitting their prime at the

same time? They're like top six guys. I looked at it are like a year. They're all born within a year and four months of each other or two years and four months of each other. For the next. Yeah. Yeah.

They're all hitting their prime. That's really, is that? I don't feel like that happens a lot. It's pretty unusual. I don't remember. I remember what the ages were with the Knicks in the late 60s, early 70s, but I feel like they were all around the same because their careers seemed to end all around the same times. But usually you end up with like a situation like Dallas where you have, you know, you have

vets. You have like the older Jason kid type, but then you have like Chandler and Dirk around the same time. And yeah, but there's a little bit more of a mix. The weird thing with, with San Antonio, the cluster of the younger guys, like even somebody like Carter Bryant being 19, being like the ninth man on the team. You know, they don't have like that 34 year old guy bringing him out old gunslinger or like even like the Steve Kerr on 2003. They don't have any of those guys. Fox seems like the vet and Fox's 2018 draft, you know, so.

Yeah, it is pretty unusual. But part of it is because they didn't make the trade in February that I think they maybe would have made if they felt like this was going to happen. Like I do feel like they probably would have gotten some sort of physical stretch for, just some sort of flexibility at that spot that they just, you know, I think they thought they were your way. All right, Kyle, man. We'll see you before the draft. Thanks for coming on.

My pleasure. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rob Mahoney. Thanks to Kyle Mann. Thanks to Gahua and Eduardo as well. And I'm going to be back with you live after Wednesdays game four with a very special guest. See you then.

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