The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Magic Johnson WTF Emergency Pod! Plus Wade's Last Dance With Chris Mannix and Stugotz | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: April 10, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by SI's Chris Mannix to discuss Magic Johnson's impromptu resignation as the Lakers' president of basketball operations (4:05). Then Bill talks with Stugotz of 'The Dan Le Batard Show With Stugotz' about the tortured NY sports fan bases, Dwyane Wade's retirement, the NBA playoffs, and more (56:25). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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the world's greatest website. And this is really, I mean, this is our week. Thrones, NBA playoffs coming up. This is it. This is our wheelhouse. So check it out. Check out all of our awesome podcasts, including the Ringer NBA show,

Binge Mode, Game of Thrones. That got cranking again. We're going to have a pre-cap episode on the recapables that we're going to do before each Game of Thrones episode. That's happening. 25 greatest moments of Game of Thrones picked by Mallory and Jason getting broken down.

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It's like a crossover episode with Thrones. I mean, it's everything you'd want. We have bought a new table for this year. The set looks a little nicer. Very, very, very excited about this. So you watch Thrones, try to figure out what the fuck happened. And then you go right to our Twitter account and you can watch the live show.

And if you're a little late, maybe you wanted to watch another HBO show, watch a little NBA playoffs, watch Billions, whatever you wanted to do. It's there. You just go afterwards and start it up and it's on demand after it's not live anymore. So there you go. All right, coming up, this is the second version of this podcast. We actually had another version of it where it was Stu Gatz and then Michael Lewis, the awesome acclaimed author. But then Magic Johnson gave the weirdest press conference, not only of the year, but in the recent annals of NBA history. It was really

one of the strangest NBA days we've ever had. So we are now taping this at nine o'clock Pacific time on Tuesday night. We just had a whole bunch of basketball, just watched Oklahoma City do an improbable comeback where Houston had a chance to lock up the number two seed and blew the game at the end. Dirk's farewell was amazing. A dramatic Pistons-Grizzlies game

that had top eight pick ramifications for the Celts. I watched a lot of basketball today, but the Magic press conference trumped anything. So Chris Mannix is going to come up. We're going to talk about that. And then Stu Gatz, John Wiener from the Dan Levitard Show, who I've been dying to have come on forever. He's going to come on to talk about Dwayne Wade.

This is going to be an awesome, awesome basketball podcast. But first, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, on the line right now on emergency pod notice. We haven't had him on before, at least on the BS podcast. Chris Mannix from Sports Illustrated and The Zone. He's on East Coast Time. It is midnight. It's past midnight, East Coast Time. But I feel like this is the biggest, weirdest NBA story of the year.

Magic Johnson stepping down from the Lakers. What was your reaction, Chris Mannix? Out of nowhere, man. Like, last regular season game, you're thinking Dwayne Wade done, Dirk Bavitsky done, and Magic just pops out before the meaningless Lakers-Blazers game. Now he's quitting. Like, I mean, you can get into all of it, peel back all the layers.

But, man, like, this is just such a Magic Johnson thing to do. Because, you know, this is the guy that was like, you know what? I don't want to be a head coach anymore, so screw it. You know what? I don't want to work hard at being a talk show host, so screw it. And now he doesn't want to do the work required to be an NBA executive. So this is kind of on brand for Magic Johnson. I've thought that he was going to scale it back. I did not think there was any way in hell that Palenka and Magic were going to be in charge of the Lakers this

summer. Either they were going to get rid of one, get rid of both, or have Magic scale back and get rid of Poinca. It was some sort of one of those three options was happening. And I actually predicted on this pod last week or the week before that I thought Magic was going to scale back considerably. Did not expect not only what he did, but how he did it. Let's be honest, super unprofessional. Didn't even tell Jeannie Buss. Made a point over and over again of talking about how it was his sister and how much he loved her. And yet he didn't have the balls to just call her on the phone and say he was stepping down. Said he didn't want to see her in person, but it's better for her to find out on television.

I thought that was one of the strangest things I've ever seen as a basketball fan. I don't know if, am I overreacting or do you feel the same way? No, it's right up there. Trying to think of something more bizarre in the quitting slash retirement kind of area area i don't think of of too many i mean and all this like you know behind the smile and look magic he's i don't know him too well but he seems like a pretty decent guy and he's you know obviously a great businessman but i mean he's smiling through the the narrative of how he couldn't look his boss in the eye and tell her that he quit. I mean, this guy had a three hour meeting yesterday with Jeannie Buzz and didn't

say any of this. Right. Any time during the three hours when you're discussing the future of this team, you might want to say, I'm not going to be a part of it. Then he's joking about how he's talking to people at the arena that night about the future of the team. They're talking to him about the future of the team, and he's just sitting there saying, I don't know. I didn't, I just sort of like, they don't know that I'm not going to be here either. I mean, the whole thing was just

nonsense. Then he's kind of, you know, taking you way behind the curtain. Now, we all know that from the day he took over, he wanted to replace Luke Waldman. I was talking to someone really close to Luke earlier tonight. He was like, you know, from day one, Luke felt like this guy wanted him out of here. From day one, publicly and privately, it was all negativity from the Lakers front office. But to kind of put it all out there and confirm like, yeah, I want this guy gone,

but I couldn't tell Genie or couldn't clash with Jeannie was just, it was just bizarre. There was nothing he said in that like 45 plus minutes that wasn't bizarre. Yeah. And it just kept going and going. The whole Jeannie bus thing was weird. It was weird that he broke down. It was weird that he talked about how he wanted his life back and how he wasn't happy, which look, everybody deserves to be happy. I don't blame him for that, but I'm not sure what he thought he was getting into running a basketball team. He had certainly been around basketball long enough to know what it entailed. He was alluding to the dirty business of the backstabbing and kind of, what did he say, trickery?

He used some word like that about the dirty politics of people floating stuff out there. How did he put that? Do you remember? He had said something like that. I remember backstabbing and he didn't like all the leaks and things like that. But his front office was responsible. His front office was responsible for some of them. Like, you know, Jeannie Buss, you were there, Bill.

Jeannie Buss went to Sloan and blamed the media for all the problems. I mean, you know, muzzle your people. Like there's people within the organization that were putting stuff out there. I mean, it's just The disconnect from reality was stark in that whole speech. And then the Polinka stuff, he made it seem like it was an arranged marriage. And Genie set it up. He never really said anything nice about Polinka. He didn't say anything bad, but he didn't say anything nice either. They asked him, do you think Polinka will be the GM

going forward? Will he do a good job? He's like, I don't know. That was not the narrative when they got the job. The narrative, it was not an arranged marriage. It was like, this is a partnership. This guy's great. It was all a big love fest. We're going to turn this around.

And now he made it seem like they were just shoved together, which as a powerful. That's not a powerful... And that's not true. Yeah, it's not true. And as a powerful billionaire businessman, I think he had more power in the relationship than Plinka did. If he didn't want to work with Plinka, I think he, I'm pretty reasonably sure he could have squashed that one, correct? Absolutely. But you mentioned at the top here, kind of Magic wanted, maybe he wanted to take a step back or he thought he might take a step back. The problem is there's not too many guys that he could work with that he could take a step

back and that person wouldn't grab the spotlight. Magic loves the spotlight. He loves everything that comes with success, but not, at least when it comes to basketball operations, the work that goes into it. And Palenka played this whole thing perfectly at the beginning because he wanted this job. He wanted to be a part of the Laker franchise and run the Lakers.

So he was willing to kind of play the game and let Magic be the front man if he could do a lot of the work. Now, there are a bunch of reasons why it hasn't really worked out for Palenka. I think he didn't have the same ascension that Bob Myers did because the relationships with a lot of front offices that Palenka had

were damaged because of what he was as an agent. Yes, I was going to say. He didn't have a great reputation. No, he didn't. But Plankett was the guy that would step in and be okay, be deferential. Magic could have taken a step back if he wanted to and work with Rob Plankett. There's not a lot of guys that would have been okay with that type of marriage, at least not high-level NBA GMs.

And I think when they got the job, I think a lot of it was ceremonial sort of, all right, now we have a Laker legend and we have this connected guy in the league. And these two guys are going to rebuild our image within the league, which is that we're a train wreck. And Jimmy bus was a train wreck. Mitch cup check. Couldn't even get a meeting with Kevin Durant.

Was I heard a great story about him, at least when he was with the Lakers, about how he was the only GM in the league who would wait till 12.01 AM on July 1st to start calling people. Everyone else is back-channeling in April and May. But instead, the two people that they hired that they thought were going to give them the stability and credibility, it did the opposite. They made the Lakers a laughingstock. They landed LeBron. Now, LeBron probably goes to the Lakers, whoever is running them, unless it's somebody who's an even bigger train wreck. Other than that, moves big and small, like what they did last summer with all the guys they signed.

And Magic explaining it in Summer League. There's a long video of him explaining how everybody else is going for shooting. I wanted toughness. Toughness is what wins in the playoffs. And this is why we got this guy, that guy, and the other guy. But the big and small to giving up Zubach before the trade deadline, which is a now legendary NBA story about them calling the Clippers and offering that deal. And the Clippers almost not knowing what to do. Really? You're going to give us Zubach for Mike Buscala? Okay, great. They're just kind of a laughingstock behind the scene, which I had talked about on a podcast recently about these guys weren't exactly burning the candle on both ends. I think the teams that are out there that are really hardworking know who the other hardworking teams

are and the guys that are just everywhere and scouting everything. And what did you hear on that front? Because I had heard the reputation on the Lakers side was not good on that front. No. And to your point, like, you know, you can name the top five gms you know off the top of your head and the one thread that binds them all is just this ridiculous work ethic whether it's you know daryl or sam prestey and oklahoma city even tim conley who's all over the place scouting and has had great success in denver uh that's what what what they do uh and magic never had that reputation i think another part of the two, though, is that

I don't know what the titles were of the guys that worked under Rob Blanca, but he didn't have a very deep staff. He didn't have, I think, a true assistant GM there. And all the great teams, and it's more important when you're a new front office with complete novices

at those positions. You've got to fill it out with really good, experienced hands. You've got to have the depth of the staff of Utah or San Antonio in general. But when you have that young a front office, you've got to do that. And I think that was a big problem, too. I don't think Rob's been very trusting of bringing in kind of a top-level assist underneath him. And I think that's been problematic for their finding guys, too. To their credit, though, Bill, they have drafted pretty well.

I mean, they've made some mistakes on the trade front, but the draft has worked out real well for them over the last couple of years, except for the obvious fact that if they had taken Jason Tatum over Alonzo Ball, maybe they're not in this situation right now because they could have made a Davis trade. Or Darren Fox, too. Yeah. Exactly. Magic just seemed so out to lunch in that press conference. He was all over the place. And one of the funniest moments,

maybe tragic funny, was he talked about D'Angelo Russell and he goes out of his way to praise D'Angelo Russell. Did you see that part? Yeah. Let me ask you this. and he goes out of his way to praise D'Andre Russell. Did you see that part? And he goes, Yeah, yeah. He goes, Let me ask you this. Is this Twitter's first casualty, like an NBA front office? Like my, you know, 10,000 foot view of it is there's a lot of reasons Magic quit,

but like not being able to tweet at players on that list somewhere. That was great. He was upset he couldn't work out with Ben Simmons, who's on another team. He really seemed like he was really bristling that he couldn't help other players on other teams and that it was a violation. Meanwhile, Ben Simmons is going to be a free agent in like two years.

But he's also off his rocker too. Now the NBA's not going to fine him if he tweets at Dwayne Wade. Congratulations. They're not going to fine him if he tweets at Russell Westbrook. Great game. There are some things that are problems only in his mind. Yeah, and it was basically like, now I'm free. I get to do tweets and work out with Ben Simmons when I want. It's like, what are you talking about? The Russell thing, he made a point of saying,

look, we traded D'Angelo Russell, and it's been really, really great to watch him mature into what he did this year, but he wasn't mature like that when we had him. And it's like, yeah, because he was 20. What did you expect? Oh, he's more mature now at age 23? I can't believe it.

What a crazy story. And don't forget, too, he kicked D'Angelo Russell on the way out the door. Oh, big time. I mean, he didn't just trade him. He kicked him on the way out the door. He's trying to change history to agree with all that because he was

very negative towards Russell at the end. They gave up on somebody really early to get rid of the Moskov contract to help create space to get this second free agent that they thought they were getting. The worst kept secret in the league all last season was that they were getting Paul George and then they ended up not getting Paul George.

And I don't, what, I mean, what, what's your theory on that? Do you, out of all the different theories that everybody has heard, why do you think they didn't get Paul George?

I mean, I think it's a combination of Paul George has always been kind of a pleaser in the sense that you know like he goes to oklahoma city and he develops that bond with with westbrook and and that's hard for him to walk away from because of what what happened between those two guys i also got to give that the front office there a lot of credit because they i mean from day one you know this that was their goal all season long to sell him on the franchise. Now, maybe there's other stuff behind it. Like the, you heard the Brewer

stuff that was out there for a little bit, and maybe this board that we don't know, but I've gotten to know Paul George pretty well over the years. And it didn't shock me at all when he stayed, because I knew what he was hearing from the Oklahoma city front office. And I knew, you know, really from month one, the type of relationship he was developing with Russell Westbrook. And there was some agency stuff, too. He's with CAA, mortal rivals with Clutch. I'm sure.

Because Rich Paul left CAA, plus you have Palenka versus CAA. But the guys really make a decision like on that. No, no. I mean, I know it's a factor, but. Those are the people that are in his life, you know? Yeah. And if they feel like they'd rather shove him versus to OKC versus him being in the shadow with the Lakers, uh, magic was talking about, this was a three-year plan and I've, I've put them in, they're in great shape now for year three. Do we feel like they're in great shape? Because I look at LeBron entering, what is it,

year 17 next year or year 18? Had his first pretty significant injury of his career this year. Now he's not going to play basketball for six months. You have Brandon Ingram with a really serious blood clot issue. We have no idea if he's going to be healthy. You have Lonzo Ball, who was hurt half the season, who is embroiled in one of the sadder family controversies slash crises with the business and the whole thing that he's going through. And we're not even sure that he's even a potential all-star someday. I don't think they have another all-star on the roster. Their draft pick is going to be somewhere between nine and 11. I don't think they have enough to get Anthony Davis. I mean, now that it's gotten to the summer,

I think three teams have more assets to trade than they do for Davis. Why, why would anybody think this team is in like fantastic shape? Because I certainly don't. It's a, it's that disconnect from reality that I was talking about. What, what are you saying that.

And I don't know how you define what kind of shape they're in, but with a fully healthy LeBron and these young players all healthy as well, I guess they're a playoff team next year. But I mean, they also will have to kind of rebuild the roster to a degree regardless, because all these guys that they signed a one-year contract it's not going to want to bring them back like you bring rondo back now do you bring lance stevenson back again i mean you know maybe you go a different direction and a new gm tries to find more shooting but you got to incorporate probably four new players into that rotation and you can't discount the fact that as soon as the Davis stuff came up, those young guys were looking at LeBron differently. They were looking around the locker room and saying, well, you know, because we connect the dots pretty easily, you know, you were trying to trade us.

So I don't know how you go back to training camp with any degree of trust, knowing that if a chance to acquire player X comes up, you know, LeBron and that team is going to try to trade you. Unless a new GM comes along and somehow is able to foster some kind of better environment, I think they're going to have big problems developing chemistry with the same group next year.

Yeah, and LeBron has been out. He's been quietly doing a local media make good tour. I don't know if you've noticed this, but there's a big, big, big puff piece like two weeks ago in the LA times about all the entertainment stuff that he's doing that made it seem like, you know, he was the next Walt Disney. It was, it was laughable. Um, then you have, he did a half hour interview with Jim Hill, who is the kind of the local icon, much like how Bob Lobo was the guy in Boston for years and years. Jim Hill is kind of the local icon, much like how Bob Lobo was the guy in Boston

for years and years. Jim Hill is kind of the guy here. He's been here forever and just did, you know, an interview with LeBron. Never asked him really about the ramifications of the Anthony Davis thing, whether he thought he made a mistake, none of that. It was just a very safe, likable LeBron interview

that nothing tough was asked. And he seems to be rehabilitating his image in LA, which is, it's not even like he has to rehabilitate. It's kind of indifference. This is a Kobe town and it's a Shaq and Kareem and Magic town. And the attitude, I think, with the Lakers fans was kind of like, you're a Laker now? And LeBron's whole attitude was, I'm LeBron James. And it never seemed like that totally meshed. Never felt like LeBron was a quote unquote Laker. And I don't know how you rebuild that, especially if stuff comes out, which was my next question. Do you think it comes out that part of the reason Magic did this was because he didn't click with LeBron?

They weren't on the same page. He didn't like the people, the influences LeBron had. He didn't really talk about LeBron that much in this press conference, which I thought was interesting. What did you think of that whole part? Yeah, he didn't. that's you know dealing with not lebron but everything that comes into being part of lebron james operation is is difficult for any gm as we've seen in his last two stops but i just i keep going back to what we know about magic that magic johnson just really likes being magic johnson yeah and he took the laker job because who wouldn't? I mean, it's his franchise. He's not only being empowered

as the man when it comes to basketball decisions, but, you know, given license to hire a Palenka to do all the stuff he doesn't want to do. And then, you know, kind of realized that

you've got to hop on planes and travel to like Croatian gyms and be on the phone with, you know, head coaches in, you know, Austria to hear a little bit of something, to be able to draft the guys that you need to draft. You have to kind of start new relationships with guys you probably never thought about starting relationships with, you know, for the bulk of your life. And that just takes an incredible amount of work. I'm always just so impressed with the GMs that I know that work as hard as they do and as long as they do.

I just think that there was probably something going on behind the scenes with whether it was the direction he was getting from LeBron's camp or whoever was leaking all the stuff about the Davis stuff. But I just think it boiled down to, he just didn't want to do it. And he decided on a whim that he was going to announce he didn't want to do it.

Well, and in that press conference, he made that whole point of how much he loved closing a deal and how he's like, if I can get somebody in a room, I'm going to close that. That's what I'm good at. That's what I'm good at as a businessman. That's what I really love. And you know what he didn't say. Wouldn't you love to see him try though though, like this summer? Yeah. Get into a room with Kawhi, and Kawhi's like, you know. I barely speak? Yeah. Sure. Well, the implication of him saying that was basically like,

all I really love doing is trying to recruit people to come to the Lakers, but the rest of the job, eh. The whole scouting and watching basketball games and being around the team every day, I didn't realize it was going to be that hard it's like what do you think you're the president of basketball operations and i mean do you think do you think bill that like if the southpaw kind of started doing this early and a lot of teams do that but like they don't go on the road during the ncaa

tournament to scout many teams they just sit in a big room and kind of watch together the jazz do this and like their their screening room with their practice ability do you think magic was watching like all those first round games no like on thursday with the locked in in the way you need to be locked in to be a high level executive i don't know that he didn't but i don't believe that he did well he has a pretty giant business you know and is and he does a lot of charity work. And like the job of being Magic Johnson is its own job. Danny Ainge doesn't also have a business. And he's competing. Unfortunately, you're competing against,

like I look at the Celtics. You got Danny Ainge and Mike Zarin and Austin Age and Dave Lewin. They have that whole organization that's in place, really strong infrastructure. And all those guys work hard. You look at the Clippers who went from, you know, Ballmer comes in and thinks Doc can just be the GM and the coach at the same time.

He has no idea what he's doing and has openly admitted this after the fact. And then within a few years, now you have a real organization and you have Lawrence Frank, you have Doc just coaching the team. You have Jerry West as the advisor and all the other people they brought in. And now that team knows what they're doing. And yet over and over again, some of these franchises think they can do it the old way we did it in like the 70s and 80s,

where it's like, I'll just get Magic Johnson and he'll run the team. And it's like, you can't do that anymore. This is too hard of a job. And the people you're competing against are too good at it, you know? Why is it always though, like the marquee team to do this, like the Knicks and Bill Jackson and the Lakers and Magic Johnson, teams with like unlimited resources who can write blank checks

to whoever they want to write checks to. They don't have the foresight to know that's not the way to go about their business And really, if you're Jeannie Buss Once your head stops spinning And you answer your 9,000 text messages About this subject Is this not like manna from heaven? You gave the job

To the guy everybody loved The Magic John He proved over two plus years That he really wasn't up for the job yeah now you can go out and do what you should have done to begin with which is use that checkbook to offer the job to best gm out there now i don't know if those top guys take the job but i think there's going to be a lot of interest in it from a lot of people that you might not expect right away and if you're the lakers you're worth like three plus billion. You've got

a TV deal that pays you $180 million a year. You've got the Staples Center, which is print money during your home games. Don't you just like FedEx a check to Sam Presti and say like, you fill in the number? Like, don't you do that? Like, am I wrong to say you just at least go big, big game hunting with those GMs before you go down another list? I have, I have an answer to this, but hold on. We got to take a quick break. Let's take a break to talk about ZipRecruiter. As the NBA playoffs approach, having a healthy team can mean the difference between a championship

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is the smartest way to hire. All right. So I'm with you. This mindset has gone badly a couple of times where the teams write the big check for somebody. We saw this with the Knicks and Phil Jackson. It didn't work, but they're also hiring a guy who I think was at the point in his career, much like magic, where he's not going to be burning the candle on both ends and competing against organizations like Boston. The thing we keep dancing around and we haven't talked about yet is I don't think there's any evidence that Jeannie Buss is a good owner. Rossello and I have talked about this on our podcast a couple of times. She seems like a very nice person, respected around the league. Everybody likes her.

I don't think we have any indication she has any idea what she's doing or that she's better or worse than her brother was. And her brother was terrible. In retrospect, this magic Palenka combo was one of the worst ideas of the decade from an NBA organizational standpoint. And I don't trust that she's going to figure this out on the fly. What evidence do we have? So you talk about like, why don't teams do this? What is the common bond? It's bad ownership. It's not the bad front offices. It's the fact that James Dolan is the Knicks owner. The GMs can change, but he's still the owner. The Buss family, since Dr. Jerry died, the GMs can change. They're still the owners. And

I don't know. I think bad ownership is insurmountable. We had it in Boston, remember way back when with Paul Gaston, the guy before Wick, remember? Does that Vin Baker trade to save a million dollars. And meanwhile, Vin Baker has like a serious alcohol problem. And that trade, the combination of that trade, then that leading to Rafe LaFrance with the Antoine Watt. I mean, that set the team back five years. You can't recover from stuff like that. So for me, it's like, it always goes back to the owner.

Who are the really bad owners that who have actually had sustained success? Not Robert Sarver. You know, he gone down the line. It's like the owners are always follow the owners. Yeah. You're either, you know, a known commodity as a good owner or an owner that just hires good people and stays the hell out of the way. That what peter holt was for for decades in in san antonio just you know washes hands of everything loud pop and rc to kind of do everything down i am i am willing to give genie kind of a mulligan here um sure because she wrestled control away from from her brother she hasn't free spent i mean the lakers are still in a good position cap wise um Um, so, so this was

a whiff, like I'll give her another opportunity to do the right thing. But like, if she goes out and, you know, hires Kobe of all people, or like, you know, I'd like a, a, a C green to be the assistant. I don't know if she does, does one of those things, then you can sit back and say, all right, well, maybe she doesn't really understand what it takes to win in today's NBA. I think she's been really, really, really good at working the media. I think that's been her best skill so far. I also think like, we don't know for sure if she's a bad owner yet. The evidence is pointing that way, but like you said, maybe this is her mug and Steve Ballmer was not a good owner the first two years he owned the Clippers. And I think he's become a

good owner. And I think with Grosbeck, the first two years with the Celtics was not a good owner the first two years he owned the Clippers. And I think he's become a good owner. And I think with Grosbeck, the first two years with the Celtics was not a good owner. And I think he eventually became a good owner. I think there's a learning curve with this stuff. I always call it new owner syndrome, where those first two years, they think they have it all figured out and they don't. In her case, it did seem like part of the reason she hired Plank and Magic was to stay out of the way and to let them do you know basically carry the water and and you know they just weren't ready to do it i i i still feel like there's more to this story don't you like this is just too weird that

just on a whim he decided to resign and not tell her that my red flags are going off put it that way there's this part of me that can buy that but again this is magic true this is like he decided in 94 like hey i know we lost five straight so that this kind of sucks i'm not gonna be a coach anymore and you know if you remember that the magic hour i know you were probably a big watcher back in 98 yeah but like you know the quotes that came out of that were like this was just he didn't even show up for you know some of the the rehearsals and the production stuff and i think his sidekick called it like an absolute disaster or something like i mean this is kind of you know just magic being like yeah you know this isn't this isn't a heck of a lot of fun so i'm just i'm just not going to do this anymore and look at the owner stuff like it's all it's

all about who you hire. Like, you know, Rick Grosbeck is a good owner now because he empowered Danny Ainge and, you know, Danny's done a terrific job. All the other owners you mentioned, you know, Cuban is like this eccentric guy

that, you know, makes headlines. But Cuban, I think, is a good owner because he put Donnie Nelson there and he put Rick Carlisle there and he put them there, you know, for a generation. So, you know,

this is her shot right now. The Lakers, I think you'd agree, is still an incredibly appealing job. Some people are lining up to get this job, and this is going to be just a massive decision for her. They have cap space, and they still have somebody who, if he can stay healthy for a whole year, is still one of the best

five offensive players in the league, and is still LeBron. I'm wondering, the hypothetical is, what if Sam best five offensive players in the league and is still LeBron. I don't know. I'm wondering what would you like? What is like the hypothetical of like what if Sam Presti takes the Laker job?

What does Sam Presti do with LeBron James on day one? Like is he taking Rich Paul's phone call on on like who to sign or who to talk to?

See, I don't think somebody like Presti would take a job like that. I think there's too many landmines between the age of LeBron, the people around LeBron,

and you just watch their whole season get submarined basically by Rich Paul doing a planned news cycle around Anthony Davis's trade demand, where I don't know if the Lakers knew that was coming or not, but that ruined their season. Did you see the quote Gentry had tonight? No. This is from Nick Friedel's Twitter feed.

He said, Gentry said the fallout from the Davis trade discussions for both the Lakers and the Pelicans was the most toxic situation he's seen in 31 years in the league. And he said basically just, basically like both, just both teams were kind of in ruins after it. And it's true. That was when you just talk about a news league coming out and how it affected everything. Like Anthony Davis lost a year of his prime, basically he's 25 years old. This is year seven. Like, you don't know, you can, you get hurt two years from now is you don't have a lot of years when you're running at all cylinders.

And he just gave one away because of the stupid trade that really, we have no idea even how close it was to come through. I will never understand why they played it that way. Made no sense. Just do it in the summer. Yeah. The only reason I think Presti would consider a job like that is that i don't think he he sees himself as an oklahoma city lifer i don't think that's going to be his only

job yeah in his career and and if he left now he wouldn't be cutting and running on the thunder i mean he'd have them set up for at least the next few years with with those guys signed so the timing might be okay for him to go, but that would be the first phone call I would make. What about Masai? Yeah, I'd probably go to him too. I'd definitely go to him if he was turned down. I think Masai would consider it.

I mean, there's a part of Masai that, I think there's been a part of Masai for years, always wanted to try a rebuild in Toronto. Like he's been, the joke in Toronto for years was like, you know, that the press release of Dwayne Casey's firing was like printed six years ago and was just kind of sitting on a server somewhere. Right.

And he kept like winning enough to keep the job. I think Masai would want to rebuild, but again, the Lakers might throw like, I mean, what's too much money for the Lakers to throw at a top executive? Is it 15 million? Is it like 20 million? There's no dollar number that the Lakers would live or should limit themselves to. And that can be a factor in those negotiations as well to be the highest paid GM like ever it's been out there.

Well, and that's something Nick should have done a few years ago when they were spending the Phil Jackson money is they should have probably gone after somebody like Darryl or Preston or whoever. Jerry West, we think, is too old. He's 81. I don't see him being able to do the day-to-day anymore. He could be an advisor. Either. I could see that.

I don't see Jerry wanting to do all. Again, it goes back to all the things you have to do. Jerry knows that, too, because Jerry did it for a long time. I don't think Jerry... I think he might go back to the Lakers just because it'd be his triumphant return, but I don't think he'd want that full-time job. Bob Myers? I don't know, man. It's interesting if that whole thing kind of comes undone,

because Bob could have... Besides Kevin Durant leaving, like what do you do with Draymond green this summer? Like if you have an opportunity to trade Draymond, to trade him for like 75 cents on the dollar to avoid paying him in 2020, do you jump on that opportunity? Well, the kind of reboot the thing around Stephen Clay.

One of the better fake trades is if there was some sort of Horford for Draymond straight up where they took a little extra money, maybe they'd have to throw in a contract. But whether that would be something that appealed to both sides, Celtics getting, you know, maybe it would be able to save some money, whatever their plans are this summer, and God only knows. But, yeah, I don't. I couldn't imagine Boston.

Horford's so important to them. Like, I'm around that team a lot. Horford is like the one sane voice all the time. He's the so important to them. I'm around that team a lot. Horford is the one sane voice all the time. He's the one sane human being. I was thinking more, he's like $31 million next year. Yeah, but I mean, who cares?

If Kyrie winds up coming back, at that point, buddy, it shouldn't be an object. That's a team that's in flux. The Warriors are in flux. The Lakers are in flux. Really, everybody is in flux except for three teams this summer. One thing you mentioned about how Magic abruptly changes mind on stuff. This actually happened to me when I worked with him on an NBA countdown. We did that first year with him together. And then that summer, sometime at some point during the summer,

they decided to keep Wilbon on PTI and hired Doug Collins. And then Magic was staying. We filmed this whole commercial thing. We spent this whole day, probably three, four weeks before the season where we filmed all these commercials to get ready for the season. Me, Jalen, Magic, Doug Collins was there. And then Magic quit with like 10 days before the season abruptly because the Dodgers had made the playoffs. And he was just like, I just don't want to do the show anymore. And he just quit. And it was kind of like this where it came out of nowhere on a Thursday night.

I remember I was in New York city and I was devastated because I loved working with them. But this kind of reminded me today, reminded me of that where it was just out of nowhere. He just decided, yeah, I don't want to do this anymore. And that was it. And then it was just like carnage after. So. And just add it to the list. I mean, the next, like, I mean, that story falls right in line with the coaching and the TV show and now this. Look, he can be rich and he can have a lot of fun just being Magic Johnson.

And he tried his hand at running the only franchise that would probably ever offer him that type of job. It was a no-brainer taken at the time. He probably learned something from it. He'll never, ever do it again. We'll never hear Magic resurfacing as an NBA executive ever again. Oh, I wonder if he resurfaces on TV because he was basically lobbying for a job. One of the many weird things in that press conference was he was lobbying for an ESPN job. I heard him say Amina, who used to be my producer there, who I'm still friends with, and he was calling her out at the press conference. Amina, do you have a job for me? I was like, what's going on?

You're mad that other people were going for your job. And now you're trying to get a job when they've hired all the people for the show for the season. Now you're trying to get their jobs. What's happening? It was so strange. I just want to be a fly on Luke Walton's office right now. Who would have thought Luke Walton wins a power struggle with Magic? Oh, my God. Amazing.

He's the guy that pulls it off. I don't know. I don't think, and before this even happened, I don't know how you felt about it, but he was going to get fired. He knew he was going to get fired. But if I was the Lakers, I wouldn't have done it. Just because it takes five guys at most that you can hire to coach a LeBron James team. And like three of them aren't really available. So who do you bring in that has the gravitas to coach a LeBron team and is better X's and O's wise than Luke Waltz?

You simply can't bring in the equivalent of Penny Atkinson from a couple of years ago. You can't hire the hottest assistant because it just wouldn't work with LeBron, at least early on. I would have kept him, but he's got to be sitting in his office just, I mean, he's such a laid back guy, but just having a good laugh that this is actually how it's all playing out. And the whole thing was weird because he got hired before LeBron, I mean, before Magic. And from the get-go, it didn't seem like Magic really wanted him as the coach. And it really seemed like he wanted to put, I don't know, one of his own guys in there. I always heard Byron Scott. And then when LeBron was there this year,

there was a lot of Jason Kidd buzz going around, which made sense because they played on the 08 Olympic team together. And LeBron really revered Jason Kidd as a teammate and a leader that year. So that made sense to me if that was going to happen, whether Jason Kidd ever gets an NBA job again after what Budenholzer has done with the Bucs, that remains to be seen. But just all around, listen, I did a tweet about the weirdest moments of the season this year. Hold on, I'm just queuing it up. And I named this the new number one. Here are the other candidates.

You tell me if you would put. So I had number one, Magic quits press conference. Number two, the Draymond KD near fight in the Clippers game. Number three, Anthony Davis throws a year of his prime away for no reason. Number four, Carmelo does not make it to 2019 as a player. Number five was Butler declaring war on Minnesota for reasons we're still unsure of. Number six was the Bulls create a leadership committee. And then number seven was anything James Dolan did.

Now, after I tweeted this, Zach Lowe tweeted back that he couldn't believe this season was so crazy. Markel Fultz didn't make the top seven. I also think that's amazing. Did I leave anything out? Was there some sort of crazy Celtics story that should have made the top seven? No, I mean, and the complete devolvement of the Celtics

can't be that big a shocker given that we've seen like really talented teams yes kind of go south in the past honestly i i think on that list you just said out there like anthony davis doing what he did is the only thing within shouting distance of the craziness like the magic thing is is like a grand canyon size gap between magic and everybody else like that story to me is that is that bonkers that two plus years in he just kind of says you know screw it i'm gonna go do something else and the lakers are you know looking around wondering what to do with themselves and i did love building magic's like i'm willing to sit in on the free agent meetings like like a free agent's gonna to look at magic cause the new level of

dysfunction there as some kind of reason to go and play for the Lakers. That was another one that just had me kind of doing the head slap, you know, while I'm watching it on TV. Oh my God. I mean, I feel bad. I really liked magic.

I loved working with him that year and I really thought he was a good guy. And it's just weird to watch somebody behave so strangely and almost like he didn't run it by anybody. It was like on a whim. Like he drove into work that day and said to himself, you know what? There's going to be a lot of reporters there. I think I'm just going to announce that I'm leaving. That'll be cool.

I got some stuff to get off my chest, but didn't run it by anybody in his life. You know, like his wife, Lon Rosen, just didn't ask anybody whether it was a good idea or not. And it's a tough way to go out. Let's end on this. I think the Lakers, from really winning the 2010 title, which started the decade for them, and you go through what happened the next year, a really bad title defense where they get swept by the Mavericks. Andrew Bynum clotheslining J.J. Bure in the last game and just everything that happened that year.

The next year, Kobe blows out his Achilles. And then you're talking really they haven't, I don't think have been relevant as even a playoff anything for the whole decade. They haven't made the playoffs for six years. They have all these lottery picks. Only Ingram and Lonzo Ball, are those the only two left out of all those choice lottery picks they have? This was a really, really, really bad decade. The Celtics had, after, you know, they had that brief comeback with the big three in 91 and 92, where they really were good enough to make the finals either of those years. 93, Reggie goes down in the playoffs, never see him again.

Then he dies. Then it goes through, you know, the ML Carr era, Patino. That was a really dark eight-year stretch that included the best player in the team dying tragically. I think that was probably all things considered, the totality of it a little bit worse than this, but this feels

just as bleak. I guess the difference is at least they still have LeBron James and there's still something to build around with cap space. I think Kawhi goes to the Clippers. KD goes to the Knicks. I don't know where Kyrie goes. I guess the cap space, I'm just not sure what that translates into. And they could be in a situation like they were last year, where they just couldn't get anybody. Do you think it's more realistic they get somebody or they don't get anybody. Like, do you think it's more realistic they get somebody or they don't get somebody?

No, I think it's more realistic they don't. And a smart GM won't go out there and spend, like won't become like, you know, Ernie Grunfeld circa 2016, where it's like, well, we've got this money. Everybody turned us down. So let's give it to the 2019 version

of Jan Mahimi. Right. And Andrew Nicholson. I think a smart gm that that they would hire would just pour money back into one-year contracts but the problem like that that the lakers now have is that like on an organic clock they're they're not in a bad place right like you know if ingram comes back from this injury and i'm with you by the way that that the blood clot thing is scaring a lot of teams i don't know how tradable he is until you know all these medicals come back right come back clear but like if he

you know if they just were like growing this team through these young players i wouldn't mind the kind of track they're on but they're on a lebron clock too and that's what makes everything you know so dysfunctional and so discombobulated down there so i don't i don't know do they i mean does does a new gm who isn't as qualified as you go out and like offer Jimmy Butler four years in the max? Like, I mean, that's, that's risky. Uh, does he, you know, the overpay for some of these second tier guys? I don't know. I mean, I don't think they're going to get one of those top tier guys. Everything you said, I agree with, with, with Kawhi, unless they get to the finals in Toronto, I think that might make things interesting. Uh, Durant in New York, who knows what Kyrie, but I don't think the Lakers are on the top

of anybody's list. In fact, when, you know, all my, my reporting over the last six months is that they're not on the top of anybody's list right now for different reasons, but they're just not there. Well, in the worst case scenario, if you're a Laker fan is they're so desperate to salvage some sort of contending atmosphere around LeBron that that's when you talk yourself into some really bad contracts. That's when Jimmy Butler, you end up four-year max

and you're not even competing against anybody because you're just so desperate to get the second star. And ironically, the last thing they need is another wing player. What they really need is somebody who can rebound and protect the rim, which those guys are really hard to find. What year of Jimmy Butler are you paying for past performance? Year two? What year does he break down physically and you're looking at this $40 million per year contract as this albatross around your neck? He's one of the more

risky free agents that are out there because I wonder what he's going to look like physically in a couple of years. And I think Draymond is actually realistic for them if the Warriors decide to move on from that and decide to move on from him for cap space and whatever else. I don't think Davis is realistic for them. I think the Clippers can trump any Lakers offer.

I think the Celtics can trump any Lakers offer. And I think the Knicks, if they have Durant and they get it like, I don't know, the second, third, fourth pick and whatever else, I think they could trump any offer. I think the Lakers for me are fourth for assets, especially with Ingram's status, unfortunately, being up in the air. I just don't, they're not bowling anyone over. Now, if they won the lottery with a 3% chance or a 2% chance, I really think that actually would break Twitter. We always have the joke about, oh, that would break Twitter. The Lakers winning the lottery, Twitter would break. It would be like Twitter no longer works. We need a new social medium. This is over. It's been broken.

But that's really, that's their Hail Mary is the lottery, the 3% chance or whatever. Yeah. And well, the Davis stuff, like the one thing I've always said is that if Kyrie comes back and I don't know where to go with that. I thought I'm doing this. I just filed actually yesterday, this big Celtic story for the magazine next week. And there's a lot of people at the top that still believe he's going to be back. with that thought. I'm doing this, I just filed actually yesterday this big Celtic story for the magazine next week. And, you know, there's a lot of people at the top that still believe

he's going to be back. And the amount of communication they have with him is surprising how much they talk to him on a daily basis on an individual level. But if he does come back,

like, it's a wrap on Davis because Danny doesn't care. Like, he will throw in everything he can possibly throw in there to make that deal happen because he believes it's probably right that with kairi their long term davis will want to be their long term he doesn't care you know how many times like davis's father criticizes boss he just doesn't care like you know davis could like post a picture of him like i don't know like knocking over the bill Russell statue and they'd still trade for him

because they want him that bad. So that's a wrap. The other guy with the Lakers though, this is maybe only applicable in a Magic Johnson world, but like Boogie Cousins, would Magic have gone crazy on Boogie Cousins if he struck on everywhere else? I still don't understand

how Boogie didn't end up on the Lakers last year. It seemed like for, if you're assigned JaVale McGee, you might as well roll the dice with Boogie Cousins or Beasley and some of the other things they did. So yeah, I'll be interested to see that. That probably isn't going to take LeBron to the promised land. I'll put it that way. Um, I, uh, I actually think they're probably better off using their cap space to try to trade for a couple assets and maybe a couple of contracts teams are trying to get out of and get creative and then

try to strike oil with, I don't know. I keep coming back to Jimmy Butler. I feel like one of these teams is just going to end up talking themselves into four years for him. The Philly fans aren't even that excited about him at this point. I don't know how that plays out. And for Boston, my worst fear is they do a one-on-one with Kyrie and then they trade for Davis and they basically put all the eggs in the 2019-20 basket.

And they just convinced Kyrie, just come back for one year. We're going to get Davis. Let's see how this is. Let's see how this goes. And then if it doesn't work, that's it. The house has been looted. We're done. We have no assets left.

Because you know they have to put Tatum in the Davis trade. So who's left at that point? If Kyrie and Davis leave, they get them, then they leave a year later. Like, that's it. It's a wrap. The only thing, the reason I would think they wouldn't do that is just because

they didn't do it with Kawhi. Like, they could have had Kawhi for some type of Jalen Brown-centric package. Yeah. They didn't want to do it because they didn't want to put all their eggs in 2019, because this was before Kyrie, you know, gave the speech and they thought he was coming back and all that stuff. So it would be, it would just be, it would go against what they did

in, um, in a year ago with, uh, with Kawhi. But you know, the one thing about Kyrie and the short term deals, I still think the knee stuff is in his mind somewhere. Like, you know, the guy said three knee surgeries in like four years. Yeah. And when, and I don't know if like looking at John wall,

like resonates with him, but the John wall injury and the fact that wall is going to be sitting back with, you know, maybe a fraction of his former self, whatever he comes back as with four years and a buck 70 guaranteed. I got to wonder if that fits in Kyrie's mind. The guy said that many knee surgeries.

Does he go out there and say, you know, I could maintain flexibility, but I got to make sure I get this guaranteed money in case my knee becomes a problem again. Well, and if you're the Celtics, does the John Wall contract weigh into your mind too? Do you want to give Kyrie a five-year deal? I don't think Danny cares.

I really don't I think he's going to go out there and full max him and then try to the Davis trade and call that his legacy and say I'm going to

cast my lot with these two deals you know for the rest of my Celtic career well it's like the running joke with the Celtics organization for years and years was Danny would trade

anyone even members of his family like he just doesn't care and then then it actually lived out with the Isaiah Thomas trade, which was one of the coldest trades in sports history. He will trade anybody. He will do anything.

He doesn't care. And that's going to be another interesting subplot. Well, this was really fun. What's your next DAZN thing? Because we're kind of somewhat partners. So what do you have Saturday? Saturday, that's right. I listened to the Skipper podcast.

Yeah. I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys do together. Saturday, I'm leaving tomorrow for Mexico. There's a Jaime Munguia fight down there, but everything, man, is barreling, as you know, barreling towards May 4th with Canelo and Jacobs and then the New York fight, which I think is going to be incredible.

Anthony Joshua and Jarrell Miller. I've been to some of those fights with the big British stars on U.S. soil. And those Brits, man, they come. They party. Ricky Hatton, I was at that fight with Pacquiao. Oh, I went to that too. That was a crazy crowd.

I love that. Incredible. I think AJ is going to bring the same type of atmosphere, especially with it being a short-ish flight for a lot of them to get to New York. Well, cool. I look forward to all of it. Chris Mannix, this was a pleasure. Let's do it again. Anytime, Bill. Let's take a break to talk about SimpliSafe. Nothing better than going to a game with the family, but once you've settled in your seats, thoughts of home can get a little

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or if a burglar smashes your keypad. So you know your home is secure always. Now, I'm not the only guy who thinks it's smart. SimpliSafe is the top choice security system for CNET, PCMag, and more than 3 million people. Try SimpliSafe. See how good it feels to fear less. Go to simplisafe.com slash BS to learn more. That is SimpliSafe with two I's. Simpl Simplysafe.com slash BS. All right, so we did Dirk Nowitzki with Mark Stein yesterday. We talked about his great year.

And today, Dwayne Wade, another one who is wrapping it up. Somebody who has never been on this podcast before. Stu Gatz, John Wiener. I always call you Stu Gatz, but you do have a real name. You're from The Levitard Show, where you have found national stardom and acclaim. You have your own podcast. Things are blowing up for you, and nobody is more surprised than you.

Nobody is more surprised than I am. I think maybe my dad's probably a very close second. I think if you told my dad I was doing this when I was 15 and very shy and hadn't said a word to anyone yet in public, he would have fell out of his chair thinking I'd be doing this. But yes, here we are, Bill. I am very surprised. And I am honored to be on the podcast. And I realized, you know, maybe you need a little rub from my Stugatz army and stupidity, and I'm happy to give that to you. This is Stugatz Army. Before we talk about Wade, what is it like to be the world's premier take artist? Because I really feel like you've become

an elite take assassin. The show takes advantage of it. You receive wide acclaim. What is it, when did you really feel like you mastered the take? That's funny because, you know, I, I set out bill always wanting to be, uh, Chris Russo and really caring about sports. And I still care about sports that way. Yeah. Uh, but I also care about entertaining our audience and, and doing, uh, doing the show that

we do, because I think we're doing it. Uh, I think we're doing it in large part the right way. So the hot takes were always something that came natural to me because I wanted to be Chris Russo and I grew up listening to Chris Russo. And then I realized the real value, my real value and the way I would continue to soar in this business is not by trying to be Chris Russo, but by mocking Chris Russo. And so now the takes are so over the top that I'm not even certain what I'm being serious or not. And so that, you know, I mastered it at a very young age. It always came naturally to me, just dismissing people.

And, you know, this guy's got more rings than that guy. But now it's a complete, complete mockery of all the other hot take orders out there. But let them know what I will let them know right now, when I'm serious and when I'm passionate about something, no one is better at the order of the hot take than I am. No one. No one in this country. You hurt my feelings last October. You made fun of me about the

demons at Yankee Stadium that I felt during the Red Sox. I had to call in and defend myself and then we won the title. And then we won again with the Pats. And guess what? I still feel like the Demons are my life. And you can't change how I feel about that.

I'm sorry. Well, I was going to ask you, how are the Demons doing? Because the Red Sox, what are they off to? What is it, a two and seven, two and eight star? A lot of Demons.

Dwight Evans up in the attic crying? What's happening? A lot of Demons. Really, really worried. The Dem demons of 2012 yeah i would say arguing with you about this because you've had really no success at all as a fan of any team in a long time other than uh the two miami heat titles which you kind of belatedly adopted them um so you're just angry about sports. So you take it personally when, when people who have had success,

then also feel dramatic about it. I do. And listen, you know, it's, I'm not really a heat fan. I'm a Knicks fan, but you know, I've kind of adopted the team just from living down here. But Bill, it's easy to be angry when you root for the teams that I root for. And it's easy to, you know, to sculpt the art and craft the hot takes when you're a Mets fan, a Jets fan, a Knicks fan.

It's incredible. Mets and Jets, by choice, were all kind of saddled with the Knicks. But, yeah, I've had one World Series in 1986. So when I hear, and I haven't seen the Jets do anything, and the Knicks have been a complete disaster my entire life, with the exception of the Riley Van Gundy years, where Michael Jordan was there to stop us at every turn, and if it wasn't him, it was Elijah Watt. And so,

I've had nothing to hold on to, nothing to latch on to. I haven't seen too much success, and so, yeah, it drives me crazy when you talk about your fucking demons after winning, you know, I don't know how many World Series and Super Bowls you've won since 2000. I know it's a lot. Yeah, you lost count, don't know how many World Series and Super Bowls you've won since 2000. I lost count. Yeah.

Yeah, you lost count, right? It's like 12. I mean, you lost count, and I can count with one finger the amount of championships that I've won. And it was in 86, and that felt good because it came at the expense of your Red Sox. You know, my dad's a Red Sox fan, by the way. Oh, Jesus. He hasn't mentioned the Demons in a decade, Bill, because he knows better. He knows I'm going to come after

him. He's a smarter man than I am. The Jets, the fans that root for the Jets, Knicks, Mets, that trio, usually the people from New York, they might have two of the three. Best case scenario, zero of the three. And it's the rare species

that has all three sean fantasy who uh is the editor-in-chief of the ringer and our chief content officer he had he roots for all three and he is probably the most bitter sports fan i know in my everyday life i'm not with you every day but it really is a special level of of bitterness like when the patriots do well especially because the Pats and Jets were like dead even there for, you know, through 2000, just for futility. And then all of a sudden the Pats ascend. He really, really hates the Patriots, like in a real visceral way, which I know you identify with. Like you have real hate in your heart for some of this stuff, right? Yeah, I do. It's, it's, it's funny, more so the Patriots than the Red Sox, because I, you know,

I've seen the Mets win a world series against the Red Sox. And it was a legendary series. Um, and so with the jets, you're right. Like, I don't think people realize Bill, in fact, I'm guessing most don't, um, just how bad the Patriots were leading up until 2000. They were the Jets. In fact, the Jets were probably better for a long stretch of time. Yeah, 100%. The Jets had won a Super Bowl, and your signature player was Joe Namath.

Our signature player was John Hanna, the left guard. That was our guy. So Bill, I wasn't alive for that Super Bowl. Like, I was born after the Jets won their Super Bowl. So I haven't been alive for the Jets, let alone win a Super Bowl. They haven't played in a Super Bowl. You know, the best years for me were the Richard Todd years. And then fast forward more recently to Mark Sanchez and Rex Ryan

I mean how sad is that like Bill you're in a shitty place when you look back at your organization like I do with the Jets and you say to yourself wow the best coach we ever had was Rex Ryan yeah that's why we walk around and we're miserable and then you know it doesn't help

matters that the Patriots the one team that we've got to laugh at and look down to, it doesn't help that you have the greatest quarterback that's ever lived, combined with the greatest coach who's ever lived, and you've won five Super Bowls, and yeah, it's not the Red Sox that drive me crazy. It's the fucking Patriots. It's Tom Brady.

I need Brady. I need Belichick. I need him out of my life. I need him out of my life right now. And it feels like they're going to be in my life for at least another decade. Yeah. Don't be, don't start starting.

Like we entered Brady's prime. Where are we with Brady? Brady, Brady might not be a human being. It's very possible. Like he might, it might be some sort when watching that Facebook Tom versus time thing. Like he's really just this alien machine that was created to play football.

And that's all he cares about. You know, he's, he's in shape. All he does is work out and eat the right things and take care of himself and train to play football. And it's, he wasn't even that good in the playoffs and the Superbowl,

at least, um, he was good in the other two games, but, um, he's gonna be 42 42 this year and the one thing we've learned about sports over and over again which now we're seeing with Nowitzki

and to a lesser degree Wade is like it has to end at some point it always ends for everybody this is just the way it goes and yet with Brady it's hard to see a finish line because he looks better than ever he has more hair than ever so he's won three Super Bowls in the last four years to see a finish line because he looks better than ever. He has more hair than ever. Right.

So he's won three Super Bowls in the last four years. It's hard to see where the finish line is. I don't know. Yeah, and it's funny. He's got more hair than ever. That's funny. Yeah, and he looks better than ever. I was talking about this with Levittard on our show.

If I told you in a weird, strange world, like if you had a prop at a future bet 10 years ago, who's going to retire first? The Patriots tight end with a Patriots quarterback who's already been in the league for 10 years. It's amazing. And you took Tom Brady at plus $1 billion. Congratulations. Like, think about that. Gronk retires, you know, before Tom Brady.

If I told you 10 years ago, who's going to retire first, Bill, Gronk or Tom Brady, you would have told me Brady and you would have left me out of the room. There's an even better version. If you want to chalk it up to, you know, nutrition and working out and all the right food, go ahead, feel free. I chalk it up to that doctor who's no longer allowed to stand on the sidelines. There's a better version of that prop bet that my buddy Hench came up with when they drafted Gronkowski. So second round, right? Goofball from Arizona with a bad back.

If you had said Rob Gronkowski will make the hall of fame before Tom Brady does, but they'll both make the hall of fame. That would have been like, what would that have been? Like 5 billion to one? Because he would have, you had to play at least nine seasons, right? That is really, that is funny. But it's going to happen. I've never even met him and I love that guy.

Hench, if you think I have the demons, Hench, I get 500 word emails. Just today, the Red Sox lost opening day. We're taping this on a Tuesday and he's just furious. He's like, I know I shouldn't be furious. We just won the world series, but, and then it's 500 words.

But that's the thing. Like for the people that suffered when they were young and, and had some really horrible losses and that just became who they are. It's really, it's really hard to shake out of that. You don't like, this is what I was arguing about with you six months ago, the demons,

like it's just hard to ever find peace when you've had so little peace for the first like quarter of your life, you know, or the first third of your life. What's interesting with the Mets jets, Knicks combo. So fantasy, I think is like 36 or 37.

So he doesn't even remember the 86 world series. So fantasy, I think, is like 36 or 37. So he doesn't even remember the 86 World Series. He was alive for it, but has no recollection of it. You have these fans for those three teams who are now late 30s who have no recollection of any happiness. Where like

Vinny Testaverde almost beating the Broncos in 98 is one of their top five highlights. It's pretty crazy. Yeah, I mean, Bill, it's been, it's, listen, it's not only that the Jets are lousy, and it's not only just how lousy that they are, but, and here's a funny stat real quick.

I think a five-month-old baby born in Boston has seen more championships than me. Oh, my God. Than a 45-year-old man who was a Jets, Mets, and Knicks fan. And listen, the Jets and Mets are by choice. That's me growing up in Long Island. The Jets and Mets both played in Shea Stadium. And New York kind of divides along those lines. If you grew up in Long Island, chances are you're a Jets and Mets fan.

If you grew up in Staten Island, Manhattan, Connecticut, Jersey, you're Yankees, and you're Yankees and Giants were all stuck. We're all saddled with the Knicks, unfortunately, because we're on the second basketball team. So we're forced there. But, yeah, it's really depressing. Like, it's not just the way, it's just not, it's not how bad the Jets have been built. It's the way they lose. The most excruciating ways that they lose.

They never have three timeouts at the end of the half. Like, they don't just lose. The most excruciating ways that they lose. They never have three timeouts at the end of the half. They don't just lose. They lose in the most painful of ways, and it's a disaster. And then you combine that with a Patriot success, and it's really bad. And think about the division that you played in. No one is challenged. Think about this, Bill. You're playing in a division with the Bills, Jets, and Dolphins.

And so while everyone is going out and grabbing Le'Veon Bells during the first week of free agency, Belichick's on vacation, shirtless, jumping off a dock or jumping off a boat, waiting for the second week of free agency, because that's where he wins Super Bowls. Not in the first week. He wins them in the second week of free agency. That's his week.

He does some bargain shopping. Yeah, who are the quarterbacks in our division this year? We have Sam Darnold, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Josh Allen. Those are the three? Think about that, Bill. That's like 12 picks. I'm ready. It's 12 picks for our defense right now.

Over under 12. Who's been the second best quarterback? Since Brady's been the starting quarterback for the Patriots, who has been the second best quarterback? Since Brady's been the starting quarterback for the Patriots, who has been the second best quarterback that he's had to face? Please don't tell me it's Mark Sanchez. Is it Mark Sanchez? No, I would have said the one-year bloodsuck was in Buffalo was probably the best one, which by default, I mean, Miami had,

Chad Pennington was good on either the Dolphins or the Jets for like two years. And I don't remember which team he was on. He was a runner-up MVP that one year with the Dolphins. I think that's the year Castle Brady got hurt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was probably, that's up there. Buffalo. Buffalo really.

Forget Buffalo. Yeah, the Jets had. The Jets had Sanchez. Buffalo. Buffalo really. Forget Buffalo. Nobody. Yeah, the Jets had Sanchez. I will say, the Sanchez did come into Foxborough and win an AFC title game. Or a second round game, whatever that was. He won that divisional game, right? Yeah, the second round game. Yeah.

Yeah, like, listen, like Sanchez, that's the height of, you know, my Jet fandom is more Sanchez than Rex Ryan. And, you know, I'm not even certain, well, Rex Ryan's working at ESPN, and is Sanchez still playing in the NFL? No, I think you're closer to playing in the NFL now than either of those guys. So anyway, yes, I hate your Patriots. And listen, wherever Mosey the Tupu is, right? If he's in your attic, I don't know where the fuck he is. But I don't care. The demons?

I don't care about your demons anymore. I'm going to make you care. Bill, help me out, because eventually they're just going to get lucky and win. Are you telling me that five Super Bowls or two Super Bowls, they're not going to erase the last 45 years of misery I've gone through? Nah. Well, six, of misery I've gone through. Yeah. Well, six, Mike. I don't know.

No, the sports highlight for you had to have been when LeBron comes to Miami, you're doing this radio show with Levitard back when he still followed sports. The two of you are so excited about the LeBron thing. And then all of a sudden, America turns. And you become the wrestling heels for eight months, followed by the collapse in the 11 finals. And people like me coming on your show being like, I told you so. You can't win with three guys.

And then you proceed to win titles the next two years with both middle fingers raised in the air. Everybody's shitting on your fans. They show up late. They don't follow basketball. But you really were the center of the basketball universe there for four years. So that was a win. Yeah.

I mean, listen, that was a big win for Levitar because he cares so much about the city of Miami, uh, and that organization, it was, it was a massive win for me on a totally selfish and personal, uh, level. It was a big win for us because our show, you know, really exploded. Uh, when we got, when we got LeBron and Bosch down here to go with Dwayne Wade, it really, it really exploded. And I always say that studio we have at the Cleveland, there's the house that Levitore built, that's the house that LeBron built. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, with a little contribution from Dan. So, yeah, it was a really exciting time.

Like, you know, to win the two championships, to get to four straight, that first one still hurts because you went from Wade and LeBron shadowboxing in the corner of game one because they thought it was going to be a cakewalk to losing that series and LeBron being afraid to post corner of game one because they thought it was going to be a cakewalk to losing that series and LeBron being afraid to post up J.J. Perea. Yeah. All that, I remember it like it was yesterday and all that. That still hurts because they probably should have won three titles

in those four years there. But there were so many big moments and so many great moments, and those guys really, again, from a personal standpoint, they did a couple of things, Bill. It kind of legitimized Miami a little bit as a destination, as a sports city. And then for our show, it really vaulted our show to a level that, quite frankly, we didn't realize we could get to. I don't know if we thought we would get to this level, but certainly those guys. And I think we handled it well for our market.

Our show handled that better well for our market because our market's not super serious. You're right. They come late. They leave early. I left before the Ray Allen shop because I wanted to get home. You left before the Ray Allen shop? I wasn't alone. I mean, there were a lot of people walking out of that arena with me. And so, uh, but yeah, it was really, it was, it's probably the coolest four years for me as a sports fan that I've had,

um, uh, in my lifetime. It was just a cool thing to be a part of. Well, and then the other thing, you know, I mean,

we just had the NBA finals the last four years. Half of it was in Cleveland. I'll do respect to Cleveland, but I think going to Miami, especially like I was doing countdown those last two years in 13 and 14, and going to Miami for these big chunks of time, it was like winning the lottery. I mean, Miami is unbelievable, especially you're going to Miami in June. It's just out of control. And I don't know if I ever would have known Miami was such a cool place.

It's honestly one of my favorite cities. And I would have had no idea if LeBron didn't go there, right? I wasn't there for the 06 finals. You probably weren't making it again. And this leads to Dwayne Wade, the greatest trick he ever pulled, convincing LeBron to come to his city to play with him, which we're going to get into right after this break. Hold on.

Hey, we're going to take one more break to talk about, guess what? The Masters is this week. And if you missed it, Joe House was on Against All Odds with Cousin Sal giving his Masters picks. The Degenerate Trifecta also weighed in on Against All Odds with Cousin Sal. And then, I don't know if you know this, Joe House has his own podcast about golf called Fairway Rollin'. It's presented by Callaway. He has already done his giant master's preview. He's going to do another, I think,

at least three podcasts over the course of the next few days, including Sunday night right after the master's ends. We'll have one up there. And don't forget, House knows not only golf, but he knows good gambling bets. And if you want to bet on the Masters or you want to do a little daily fantasy, whatever floats your boat, House is there to help. House was on fire last year. House won me money last year with the Masters and with the US Open, actually.

So listen to Fairway Rowland. Listen to Against All Odds. And don't forget to enjoy the Masters this week. All right, so rank these feats by Dwayne Wade in order of how spectacular you think they were. Okay. His 2009 season, when he was like 38-5 with a 30-plus PER

and they won 47 games and neither of us can name two other guys in that team. 06 finals, 97 free throws, 36 points a game, just the closest thing to a Jordan impersonation that we've seen since Jordan,

or convincing LeBron to play with him when LeBron was the biggest free agent in the history of the league? How would you rate those? One, two, three. That is such a good question. We'll put the first one third. So that's the year, I think,

before LeBron got here, right? With the bird, all that stuff. Oh, no. Right. So let's put that. Incredible season. It was an incredible season. Listen,

I've told people, I think it's probably Spolster's best coaching job he's ever done. Yeah. And that's a guy who's been to four finals and won two championships,

right? Because he didn't have those guys. And so that was pretty impressive. And I think if you want to point to anything about Eric Spolster,

you point to that season. Yeah. Because the other seasons, he did what he was supposed to do. Right. And then, wow, this is a tough one because Dallas, he wins that, he wins that championship against Turkey.

He basically does it by himself. He's the, he's the only go-to guy in the team. Shaq, it's like a different stage of his career. Shaq, he's a little banged up. Can't go to him in the last six minutes really at all.

Right. I'm going to put, man, I'm going to put that as impressive as that was and was on the court, I'm still going to put that second because the most impressive thing that he's done is convince LeBron James not just to team up with him and Chris Bosh, but to do it in his city. Yeah. LeBron could have said, hey, Dwayne, I want to do it here in Cleveland, or I want to do it there in New York. And Dwayne was like, no, we're going to do it right down here in Miami.

And so to convince a guy like that to come down to his city, and they figured it out, like, you know, to be kind of second fiddle to Wade, and then they realized, okay, they can't win this thing without LeBron doing it. But, yes, to convince those two guys to come down and play for Spolstra and Riley in Dwayne's city, to me, is the most impressive thing that he's done in his career. But, Bill, that's what makes him great, like the unselfishness, the willingness to – and it's interesting.

And tell me if you agree with this. I think if he played – so we always compare Wade to Kobe, and who's the second-best two-guard or third-best two-guard? I know you think Jerry West is ahead of Dwayne Wade. But the reason I put Wade ahead of Kobe is I think Wade, because of his unselfishness, would have recognized what he had with Shaquille O'Neal and would have kept that thing together and probably won more championships with Shaquille in his prime than Kobe did.

I know they won three, but Kobe clearly wanted to be the guy on a championship-winning team, and eventually he did that when he was the guy with Pau Gasol. I think Wade would have recognized what he had with Shaq and kept that thing together, and they would have won more championships together than Kobe and Shaq did. Does that make sense to you? It does. Can I give you a counter? Yeah, of course.

I think the fact that Wade won his title so early in his career gave him a lot of leeway and freedom to make decisions like that. Okay. In Kobe's case, he wins the title, but he's the second best guy on that team for all three titles. Even though one of those years, I think he was probably the second best guy in that team for all three titles. Even though one of those years, I think he was probably the third best guy in the league. But he was never the guy.

So what you're saying is with Wade, so he already, he already had that title where he was clearly the alpha. He had the alpha title. Yeah. So now he's starting to think about it. So he had that stashed away. So,

so it was easier to make the decision that, Hey, I'll, I'll play, I'll play Pippen to LeBron James. But here's the other thing. So this is where I slightly disagree with you. That's interesting, Bill.

I don't think he ever intended on being Pippen. I think they were going to be co-MJs. And in my opinion, that team never really fell into place until that second year when he got banged up and LeBron had to kind of throw the team on his back a little bit. And Wade was a little bit limited. He wasn't 100 I, I, I'm a big Wade defender. And even if you go back and read my book, I think the paperback came out in 2010. I thought, I thought Wade's career to that point was just better than Kobe's first eight, nine years of his career.

It was just more consistent, better teammate. I just thought he gave you a better chance to win, did more with less, all that stuff. But he took so many hits and so much punishment those first seven years of his career, the way he played, that I don't think it was sustainable. You go back and look at his free throw attempts, he's at like 10, 11 a game, year after year, the same way Harden is. But he's, I just don't think he's built the same way Harden is. Wade's like, what, 6'3"? And was taking big, big hits. Yeah, 6'3", 6'4". But Bill, it's funny you bring this up,

because I vividly remember me and Dan discussing like this kamikaze style that, you're right, it's not Harden. He played like this kamikaze style. He was always hitting the floor and always getting hit. And I remember Dan and I saying, like, this isn't going to last long. Like, it's impossible for him to sustain this and be this great for this long when he's playing this

style of basketball. Now he's changed his game a little bit, and he hasn't embarrassed himself late in his career. And that's nice to see. Like, he's not going out as an embarrassment this week. He's going out as a guy who could still, you know, give you something on any given night. But, yeah, I remember us talking about that.

And so I think you're right. Like, I think winning that championship combined with the style of play, yeah, made it easier for him to go out and get LeBron and Chris Bosh because he needed those guys. Bill, we agree, right? Like, Wade doesn't win another title unless he recruits LeBron down to Miami. That's it. The league got better.

I think in the mid-2000s, it was realistic to win a title with the team that he had in 06 or the team Duncan had in 07. But I think the league, more and more talent came into the league. And at some point, you needed at least two all-stars or two, you know, two top 15 guys. I wrote, so in 2006, I wrote about Wade and I wrote, quote, Wade takes an Iversonian punishment every game, only he's not a freak of nature like Iverson was slash is. If Wade doesn't start picking his spots, he'll go Earl Campbell on us and be gone from the league by 2011. And that wasn't like a hot take.

It was like, this guy's got to change how he plays or he's going to get hurt. And I think we started to see the effects really that second Miami season with LeBron. And, you know, he drifted into what became the second part of his career. I still feel like, I thought he was incredible in that first Miami season. And you go back and you look, and he was second team all NBA that year.

Kobe was first team, and it was a joke. Wade was one of the three best players in the league that year. And in that Dallas series, and I went to those games, and I remember writing about this, when LeBron really started to shrink from the moment in a really tangible way, you could feel it. Wade, that was some of the best basketball he ever played in those Dallas games at Dallas, where he could feel it slipping away. And he was frenetic, really, really full, full alpha dog. I got this. Come on, LeBron. I need you. I need you with me. And I don't think he was ever as good again with LeBron as he was that first season.

And the stats back it up. No, I think you're probably, I think you're probably right. I think Wade probably had some moments where he was looking at LeBron in that first season being like, how's it going on? Yeah. I got you down here to finish this off. Why am I the guy finishing this off? We're trying to finish this off. That was I the guy finishing this off or trying to finish this off?

That was tough. LeBron was in a bad spot. Looking back, like I. Bill, it was weird, right? Yeah, it was bad. It was a weird energy. It was strange. He didn't want to post up J.J.

Baray. It's like he didn't want to win. It was it was crazy, right? Like, think about that. Think about that. Like, it was like shadow boxing. And you remember this. Yeah, I remember. They're feeling think about that. Like, they went from shadowboxing, and you remember this, right? They're feeling great about themselves, they're punching each other,

shadowboxing the corner, and then it all fell apart, and not because of anything that Dwyane Wade did, LeBron simply came, like, he just folded in the pressure of all of that, and to this day, I still can't kind of wrap my head around it. I remember talking to LeBron right after that series, or a couple of weeks after,

and I said, what have you been up to the last two weeks? He was on our show, and we said, what have you been up to the last two weeks? He said, I haven't left the house. It was like the first time he had spoken publicly. And he said, I'm as miserable as I've ever been. I haven't left the house. And I'll never be able to figure that out, but I think you're right as it relates to Wade. I think in that first NBA Finals with LeBron,

he was probably as... Bill, can we say he was as good as he was in 06? Because he was pretty damn good in that final. I thought they were... I thought that first Miami year that they were equally good. LeBron was probably slightly better because he was a better all-around player,

but there was no Jordan Pippen thing. Those guys were like co-alphas. And to this day, that was the weirdest ongoing thing I've seen in a basketball series where I've actually been to the games where the moment seemed like it was too big for LeBron. Dallas had really figured out how to kind of handle him offensively. And Chandler was just always in the right spot coming over to block his drives and Marion was on them and they were just throwing all these different dudes on them. And then on the flip side,

um, they were kind of attacking them with some of their guards and then baiting him with the JJ Barea thing where it just, they, they were just trying to get in his head that whole, those last four games and it worked which yes you don't think would really happen anymore especially to somebody who would end up being in the conversation for best basketball player ever but um it was an

amazing coaching job and it was an amazing failure and i think it was you know eight months of or 10 months of pressure and the fact they didn't have a bench um right but then you're finally there like you're there like you're you're on you're on the cusp of winning that elusive NBA title and then you fall to that spot and so not to get all like LeBron Jordan Kobe comparisons and all that stuff but that's just those are things listen Kobe might not have won that series but he would have gone out shooting right right? And same with Michael. And that was the thing. That's why I just can't put Michael in the same,

I mean, LeBron in the same category as those guys from just a pure competitor and winner standpoint. It's like that Kobe and Michael, that never would have happened. They would have posted up J.J. Barea. They would have taken those shots. LeBron was playing hot potato.

He couldn't get the ball out of his hand quick enough and give it to someone else. It's so strange to see from someone who many consider to be the second-best player of all time, and some think he's the best. It's why I just can't put him there, because I am stuck with those memories of him just trying to get the ball out of his hand to someone else as quickly as possible, rather than grab the moment and try to win your team a championship. And then in 2012, he flipped the script,

had that great game in Boston in 2013. Everyone remembers the Ray Allen shot, but the fourth quarter of that game, when it was really starting to slip away and LeBron played like one of the best eight-minute sequences I've ever seen anyone play. So this is the flip side of what we were talking about. He was just absolutely outstanding for about eight minutes there, just would not let them

lose. And San Antonio just kept hitting shots and making plays. And then finally, he missed a couple, and it just seemed like it was over. They get a miss free throw. They get a rebound that they never should have gotten that four Spurs. Cause all of a sudden they're, they're winning the title two days later.

Right. The year. Don't forget Duncan missed that little bunny there too. Yeah. Yeah. The, and then 14, I,

that one, that one flipped fast. Miami was heavily favored in that series, and the Spurs, it was just their time, and then all of a sudden LeBron was leaving. I remember saying on TV that, wondering about if this was his final home game, and people getting mad at me that game five,

but it ended pretty fast. So Wade, do we hold it against Wade at all that he left and came back? Like we just, we're going to pretend Chicago and Cleveland, that's just kind of a blip in history now, right? It's not for me because I'm petty. So I remember it.

I think it is funny as we're doing this kind of, you know, as he's taking the victory lap and he deserves it. I'm telling you, I never thought my dad, Bill, I never thought in my lifetime, I would say this, that a basketball player in the city of Miami is the most beloved athlete in the history of this city. I never thought I'd say that. When I moved down here, it was Marino, the Dolphins, the Canes, and nothing else. But he has surpassed Marino in terms of just how people, how beloved he is down here. He is our most famous athlete, which is in part what makes

this very, very sad. And also, you want to lob in the fact that you think about who's next in Miami, we're not even close. I mean, there's no one on the heat. There's no one on the Panthers. There's no one on the dolphins. There's certainly no one on the Marlins. They traded everyone away. Like we're not even close to having another Dwayne Wade come through this city.

And so, yeah, but when you talk about the teams, you know, yeah, that hurt like him going. And I think, I think Dwayne probably now warm with hindsight regrets that.

It seemed like it got petty on both sides where he wanted more money than he was worth. And they just stood up to him. Well, and listen, I don't blame Wade. Like he's the guy like, Hey, I'm the reason Shaq wanted to come here. I'm the reason, like that's the thing with the big three. People will assign a lot of the credits to Pat Riley on the reason, but like that's the thing with the big three. Yeah. People will assign a lot of the credit to, to,

to Pat Riley. No man, that thing happened because of Dwayne Wade. That was it. Like, listen, Riley's great at his job, but,

but LeBron came down here to play with his best friend. LeBron came down here to play with a guy who can win him a championship. And Bosch came down here to play with his friend. Like that thing was all done by Dwayne Wade. Riley just kind of finished it off. And so, uh, but yeah, no, I don't forget that he left here.

Yeah, it's a heat lifer. No, it's not a heat lifer. I remember telling Dwayne recently when he was on the air, there are certain guys that should be playing in the same uniform their entire career. And in my mind, you were one of those guys. And to go to Chicago and then Cleveland for a couple of more dollars, to me, just didn't make sense. And really, when you consider state taxes, I think the heat offer was better. But I do understand the guy wanting to be paid a lot

of money by an organization, even though he's passed his prime, because he got that organization at that time, maybe the most famous team in the history of the NBA. And he wanted to get paid for it. Yeah. Stein and I talked about this a little bit in the pod we did about this weird inflection point we're at right now, where it's clear that as your career is ending, you would much rather have it unfold the way it's unfolding for Nowitzki in Dallas and Wade in Miami and Paul Pierce in Boston a couple of years ago ago where they just belong to the city. The city's been with them through thick and thin. They just love the guy. They're part of the city, right? And then you have that the rest of your

life. And now we're entering this new era where the players are really, really strongly pushing this whole thing. Well, I'm my own CEO. You know, I, my fans can travel with me to any city. I need to go to a bigger market. It doesn't, that whole loyalty thing doesn't matter as much. The only person I'm loyal to is my family. And we're heading toward this world where guys are just going to bounce around on different teams. And you're going to have Kyrie Irving on Cleveland for five years and Boston for two and the Knicks for three and then the Lakers for four and they don't really belong to anybody. And I think we're going to feel it next year. LeBron's going to break.

What's he, what's he going to break? Jordan, not Jordan's record. He's going to break somebody, somebody scoring, Kareem scoring record next year. And if he does it in LA, it's going to be this lukewarm moment. I don't think the fans are going to be, the Laker fans, he doesn't belong to them. They're Kareem Magic Showtime people.

And Kobe people. It's going to be weird. Will it be lukewarm if they're winning, though? Like, will it be? Because it's funny. I was at the game where he passed Jordan. And he was weird. What was that?

It was Luke Worm. Bill, it was Luke Worm. First off, he was playing with four guys I'd never heard of. I'm not even certain LeBron knew who they were or he knew them. There was just a strange vibe that was out there when he did it, and the fans didn't really care. In fact, some of the fans were booing.

It's such a strange market and organization from that standpoint where they love Kobe. They don't love Kobe. They love Magic. They love Magic. They love Kareem. They love Worthy. He's got a long ways to go. I'm interested in that, Bill. If he passes Kareem and the team, because I don't think

LeBron's done. I don't think the Lakers are done. I think LeBron bill. If he passes Kareem and the team, because I don't think, I don't think LeBron's done. I don't think the Lakers are done. I think LeBron, I think he's, I think he's as calculated as any athlete we've ever seen. There is a plan here. I don't know what the plan is, but there is a plan.

See, I disagree. I don't think there's a plan. I think there's LeBron probably has another title on him, to be honest with you. I don't think he's that does either. And I don't think there's a plan. I think the plan was, we're going to get LeBron

and everyone's going to want to play there. And they're finding out that that's actually not the way it's going to go. And now he can't even fill out Space Jam. He can't even cast it. That was the thing that happened today. I think when you look at, I'm looking at this next generation, guys most likely to

stay with their team, their whole career, the majority of it, like Wade did. Steph Curry to me, Steph Curry to me is the logical. I could see him starting, um,

peaking and ending his career with the Warriors and never being on another team. I would actually probably bet on that at this point. Um, I think I would too. I could see Harden retiring as a rocket. Now, he didn't start there. I don't know if you know this, but Oklahoma City traded him.

Did you know about that trade? They traded him. Yeah, I did. And I ripped him ever since. They traded him for Steven Adams. Can you imagine if those three stayed together, Bill? Are you kidding me? I think Giannis on Milwaukee is very conceivable because I think he's a different kind of guy.

Just doesn't seem to care at all about anything other than just being good at basketball. Now that might change. He's 23. Other than that, I don't think there's a safe bet to retire in the city. Maybe Dame Lillard, who is not like an iconic guy like some of these other guys. But man, we're just heading toward this world where guys are going to bounce around. Yeah. But I agree with you, but how about this? I totally agree with Steph Curry. I think he stays put.

But how about this one? Like it's going to be interesting to see what happens with, with into the Kumpo, like Bill, let's see if he, if he four years from now, he still doesn't want a title. You don't want to go latch on to someone else and try to win it there, the same way LeBron did, right? That's going to be interesting, but the one guy, so I agree with you on Curry,

can you see Westbrook staying in Oklahoma City his entire career? Now he's there, and they're not doing anything, so now you start to wonder, is Russ going to want to latch on and try to win somewhere else? But that's another guy I could see, because he's a bit different and he doesn't get, you talk about guys who don't care what anyone thinks, he's one another guy I could see because he's a bit different and he doesn't get, you talk about guys who don't care what anyone thinks.

Yeah. He's won. So I could see Westbrook maybe, and maybe Embiid staying with Philadelphia his entire career. Yeah. Because his career might be over a year from now. Sorry. I had to.

I'm in a big feud with the Philly fans right now. Yeah. You never know with his knees. By the way, did you just have Kyrie go into the Knicks? Is that like a done deal in your mind? I'd be surprised if, I think KD is 99%. And I think unless the, so this is really sad. I'm hinging my hopes on a guy who broke his legs 16 months ago.

But Gordon Hayward's resurgence lately has at least shed a little light onto the Celtics prospects for the playoffs. I'm still not convinced. And I think it's just as likely they could lose in round one. But if, if he continues to look like he has for the last couple of weeks, that is an X factor and they do have talent and the East is nobody. Nobody has really taken it by the horns except for Milwaukee. Who's banged up any in the playoffs. So who knows? Um,

I, listen, I said before the season started that I think the Celtics are the only team that has a chance if they get to the finals of beating golden state. And, um, there's a part of me that still, that still feels that way because they're just so immensely talented.

Um, and you're right, Hayward has played better. So that whole thing, I'd like to me, I don't think any of us should be shocked if the Celtics make it out of the East. People are going to be surprised, Bill, but they shouldn't if the Celtics make it out of the East. But I can absolutely see that happening. And then if they go up against Golden State,

I could see them giving them a really good series. But I just find that whole situation with your team fascinating. Yeah, it's not great. Yeah, those young guys, they got a taste of what it's like to be, you know, to play in big-time games and play meaningful minutes and take all the big shots. And then Kyrie comes back, and those guys have to go back to their original roles.

And I think that was a really difficult thing for Brad Stevens or any coach to really manage is like, hey, God, Jalen Brown, you were 24 points in a big game six in the Eastern Conference semifinals this year, now go back to score in 10 a game. That's a

tricky spot for Brad Stevens, you know? But that team's so talented, I could see him winning it, Bill. I really can. I could still see that team winning an NBA championship. God, you're so much more optimistic than I am. My, my friend, uh, my friend, Sean Grandy, who does a radio for the Celtics, who is by far the best radio guy. He, he made a good comparison. He said he compared it to to a soda that seems like it would be really good, but then it tastes terrible. It's like vanilla cherry Coke. He was like, oh, I like Coke and I like vanilla.

I like cherry. This would be good. You taste it and it just tastes awful. He was like, that's what this team is. It has all the ingredients I like, but then you throw them together and it just tastes bad. And I thought that was a good way to put it. So is Kyrie the kind of,

so Coke on its own is fantastic, right? Like I maintain the greatest drink of all time is a fountain Coca-Cola. Right, so last year's team was Coke. So is Kyrie like the vanilla cherry? Yeah, Kyrie, Hayward was the cherry and then Kyrie's the vanilla. And it's like, oh, man, this is gross.

Can I just have a Coke? It should probably be the other way around. I'm thinking Gordon should be the vanilla and whatever. It doesn't matter. Before. But yeah, by the way, I don't think the Warriors are going to make it. I, I, I, I am back. Dan Gundy keeps saying, Stan keeps saying the same thing.

What is it with you guys? Bill, you wrote the book of fucking basketball, man. Exactly. I'm sticking by the book. You know the ballad team wins? No, I'm sticking by the book. There's a lot of historical red flags with this Warriors season,

and I think the Rockets actually have the best team, and I think they're going to win. I really do. Really? Yeah, I do. You know the Chris Paul hamstring injury is coming, right? Yeah, that would be the only thing that, that, uh, that could submarine it. But I do think, I think they know who they are and I think they have the best player in the

conference. And, um, Bill, Bill, how like, like, all right. So, so take me back to five years ago, five years ago, right? Miami. Get them on their home court, right? Like, like, like Golden State will have home court advantage there. No, I understand what you're saying, but that's pretty unprecedented, right? A team that we're, DeMarcus Cousins is your fifth best starter, maybe your fourth, because Draymond Green's your fifth. That team not winning the title, that would be shocking to me. That would be shocking.

But this is what makes basketball great. You look at the 2014 finals, and LeBron and Wade and Bosh lose to Tim Duncan on one leg, the tail end of Parker and Ginobili, and then just a bunch of dudes like Boris Diaw and Marco Bellinelli. But those guys played really well together and they know who they were and they were well coached. And LeBron had one foot out the door and stuff happens. And the fact that Durant has one and a half feet out the door makes me

nervous. They don't have a bench. They've had a really up and down year. They keep clicking this on off switch and it's not going on. And they should have lost last year. Houston, Houston had them last year. All they do is make a couple of threes and they win.

They just got called at the worst possible time, but they, the recipe was there. So, uh, I just think they're a safer bet. The recipe was absolutely, it was there. They had them. You're right. And if, if Chris Paul plays in that game, maybe, maybe they win it. Um, are you willing to go down the path with me on LeBron that I've gone down several times where in that fourth season, uh, he can't win. Now it's going to sound like I'm accusing LeBron of throwing the NBA Finals, and maybe I am, but he's calculated.

I love it. There's no way he can leave Miami and go back to Cleveland for the storybook ending to win the one championship that, in his mind, is worth six that puts him past Jordan in his own personal record book. Like, he can't win the championship against the Spurs and then go back to Cleveland.

If he wins that in that fourth year, he has to stay in Miami. And so, yes, I guess there is a part of me that is suggesting that maybe LeBron wanted to lose that thing on purpose. Or maybe it's just a mental, you're not going 100% into it because mentally you're already drifting in another direction. Maybe.

You're in love, but you're not in love anymore. Yeah, right. And he pulled the hamstring in game one. Right. And Chris Bosh. I love this. When does LeBron ever get hurt? Like,

right. This is why you're the premier take artist that I know right now. Um, this is, this is, this is what we're looking for. Well, it is true.

Like nobody has ever won the title when they have one and a half feet out the door. And this is another case against the Warriors. Like nobody's ever won and then said, I'll see you later. Right. You're starting to swing me here because, because maybe Durant's thinking the same thing. Like, Hey, I can't leave here if we win the consecutive title. But what do you do in this situation when you have a guy with one and a half feet out

the door, but you have three guys at least, well, I don't know, where are we with Clay? Does he have a foot out the door or no? Because that would be two and a half feet out the door. Does Clay have a foot out the door or do you feel like he's staying? I think this team, when Durant leaves, gets back to what it was before Durant, which is Curry and Clay.

Okay, so hear me out here. If you have one and a half feet out the door in Kevin Durant, I agree with you, okay? But you have six feet that are firmly entrenched. They're inside the door. Can the six feet supersede the one and a half feet that is clearly walking to New York? I don't know.

We're going to find out. They don't have the best player in the conference, though, which is a problem. Usually the best player usually wins the series. Before we go, I have Jordan Jordan best two guard of all time. Oh, I'll do guards. Jordan, Magic, Kobe, West, Oscar. You're going to laugh.

Bob Cousy. Oh, come on. John Stockton. I mean, I'm laughing. I was laughing at Jerry West. Are you kidding me? John Stockton and I have Wade as the eighth best guard ever. And as the fourth best, come on, stop it. You should say Bob Koozie, multiple MVPs.

Dwayne Wade, zero MVPs. Zero. Wait, hold on a second. Okay. How many rings does Jerry West have? I mean, now Koozie, I can't go the ring path with you, but Jerry West has a single ring, one. Single ring, but easily could have had four. Stockton, zero. Right. Well, Dwayne Wade could easily have six. Well, the question is, would you have rather had 20 plus years of John Stockton or the 15 years Dwayne Wade had?

Oh, the 15 years. I mean, three championships. Yeah. I might have to move Wade out. You're right. You've talked me into it. I'm going to move Wade ahead of Stockton. Bill, three championships, five final appearances, a finals MVP. And he's the guy who orchestrated getting LeBron and Bosh together. Like, yeah, I'd rather have that easily. Now you're getting to an interesting place. If you ask me, would I rather have what Wade did or what? How many championships did Koozie win? Oh.

A lot, right? I mean, again, you're asking a Boston fan to try to remember the exact number of championships. That's tough for us. Yeah, yeah. That's funny. Let's see. He won.

All right, get Stockton the hell out of here. Get Jerry West out of here. No, Jerry West is the logo. He won. All right. Get Stockton the hell out of here. I'll get Jerry West out of here. I know. No, Jerry West is the logo. He was, he was unbelievable. He was so good. Jerry West was amazing. I told you, I told you on the radio show, he should be the logo for losing in the NBA.

Whatever the logo for losing in the NBA finals is, he should be the logo for that. Okay. Um, all right. Now my dad would kill me because my dad, my dad would kill me because he swears that Jerry West is the second best two guard he's ever seen like my dad Zeke from Cavan Creek and hit from the locker room with the doors

closed all that bullshit my dad throws at me alright I don't care like Dwayne Wade's better than Jerry West I'm sorry and you know that Bill but I mean like he's better the same way a Porsche from 2019 is better than a Porsche from 1969. But that doesn't mean it was a better car or a cooler car. Like, I still would rather drive the 1963 Porsche.

Like, holy shit. Right. I mean, that's fair. All right. So fine. If I give you Jerry West, let's play. Let's play. Let's do it like, I don't know, gambling cards, whatever.

If I give you Jerry West, can we get Stockton the hell out of here? Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. I'm going to move Wade. Who else was on that list before him? So for two guards, he's still fourth. Like Magic, I'm fine with. I don't think Magic gets enough credit.

In fact, the three best players I've ever seen, period, regardless of position, for me, are Jordan, LeBron, and Magic. Like those are the three best players I've ever seen, period, regardless of position, for me, are Jordan, LeBron, and Magic. Those are the three best. The interesting one— And Bird's a close fourth. Wade is the de facto, I can't respect anyone else's opinion if they don't agree with this, is the fourth best two-guard ever. And the question is, when can and will Harden pass him? I feel like Harden has to win a title.

Right. And if he wins the title this year, I actually think he passes him. Because he would have an MVP. And Harden's won an MVP, right? And three second place finishes. Wade only has one top three finish. He's the finals MVP in 06.

But Harden's resume is just more impressive. His production's better. He's just better. But Wadeen's resume is just more impressive. His production is better. He's just better. So, but Wade has the title. He passes Wade. Wade becomes the fifth best two-guard. If he wins the title, he'll likely be the finals MVP. So he'll have the finals MVP. He'll have the one championship. He'll have the regular season

MVP and he'll probably win another MVP or two down the road. And also, the best five-year scoring binge of any guard not named Jordan ever. He's basically averaging 30 a game now for five years. 36 game this year. Yeah, I think I'd be willing. I can go down that path with you.

I think if Harden wins an NBA title, and he'll certainly be the best guy on the team when he does win it. You can't say that about Wade. You can say it about the one title, but you can't say it about the other two. Yeah, I'd be willing to go down that path with you. That's fine. That's fair. I think that's fair. Well, enjoy the Dwayne Wade departure, retirement.

I know you'll miss the Gabrielle Union sports tweets. Hopefully she'll continue on that front. I know you love when celebrities weigh in on sports. Bill, what I'm going to miss is having a superstar play in our city. That, what I'm going to miss is having a superstore play in our city. That's what I'm going to miss because think about what I told you earlier, okay? Marlins, Dolphins, Miami

Heats, Panthers. It's pretty rough. Name a player, I dare you. Go ahead. Name one. That's rough. Ryan Fitzpatrick. I named him one earlier. You're Ryan Fitzpatrick. You're Fitzmagic in your team. What's this Dugats podcast called? Ryan Fitzpatrick. I named him one earlier. You're Ryan Fitzpatrick. You're Fitzmagic. So listen to that. What's the Stugatz podcast called?

It is Stupodity. Please check it out. We release new episodes every Thursday. I am a golf geek, and so I really geeked out this week on the Masters. So check that out. And of course, check out our show, 10 to 1 on ESPN Radio. a, is a frequent guest on it.

And so this was a thrill for me, man. I never thought I'd be on here. People don't realize that you and I are closer in sports sensibilities that just really closer in general, in terms of personality than you and Lepitard are like, we're a lot more similar than you and Dan are. Is that fair? Well, cause we because we watch sports. Yeah. I had to.

Levitar still watches from time to time. I mean, he's a busy guy. He's a social animal now. He's got three media games. He shows up to the big events. Like, you know, he goes to Wade's final game. And I thought you were funny on the air when you said, you know, it's a big, when you said, uh, you know,

it's a big event when Levitard decides to write something. Well, Levitard and I, anytime either of us write something where, where, um, we both feel pressure. Cause we're like retired writers at this point. And then when the other guy writes something,

we're like, what the fuck? Thought we had an agreement. Coinizer. Well, Coinizer brainwashed both of us. He was like, you're going to turn 43, 44 and your fingers just aren't going to want to work anymore. I'm telling you it's going to happen.

You're going to be sitting in front of that blank computer screen. That's so funny because I had something to do with this. Listen, you guys caved in. You're still journalists. You're still super credible. But you realize that being in the circus tent and being with the clowns is a lot more fun.

Right. With Levitard, I just knew there was such a great personality there that couldn't come out in print. And I desperately wanted him on the radio so people could see that side of him and it's worked it's worked out pretty well for him he doesn't have to write anymore, he's doing just fine so are you by the way he's doing great, I remember we got coffee

when did you have the Super Bowl? February 07? yeah, February of yeah, February that was the first time I'd been in that was the first time I'd been in Miami. And I went and met him for coffee, which in the Miami, the coffee

is like, it's like a shot glass and it's like 17 times the amount of caffeine. I'm used to like a 20 ounce coffee. Yeah, it's like crack cocaine. I'm not even joking. Like I did a shot right after the show today and I'm still fucking sweating and my heart is still beating at a very rapid pace.

Right. So we met at some weird outdoor place and we had, you know, crack cocaine coffee and everybody knew him. And I was like, wow, this is hilarious. This guy is like, it's like being in Miami with Sonny Crockett, you know. He's the mayor of Miami. He really? Yes, he's the mayor of Miami. He really is. He's legitimately the mayor of Miami. And it's always fun to see him in that element.

Stu Gatz, this was a pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Don't be a stranger. I won't. You know I won't. Stu Potty, check it out. Download it. Subscribe.

Rate, review, all that good stuff. And, you know, Simmons, now I have to have you on my podcast. Yes. We can do a on my podcast. Yes. We can do a home and home. Yes. All right. Thank you. I love that.

A fucking home and home. All right. Well, listen, I appreciate it. Say hi to the demons for me. I will. Tell Butch Hobson to relax a little bit, okay? We're only 10 games in. The Red Sox will be just fine, right?

I will. All right. Thank you. All right, Bill. Appreciate it, man. Thank you. All right. Thank you. All right, Bill. Appreciate it, man. Thank you. All right. Thanks so much to DAZN. Remember, download the DAZN app in the Apple or Android App Store, sign up by creating an account, then start

watching across nearly any of your devices if you love boxing, MMA, baseball. It's all there. Check that out. Thanks to SimpliSafe Home Security. They have everything you need to stop fear at the front door, including 24-7 protection with security experts on standby to send the authorities in an emergency.

SimpliSafe even keeps working if the power goes out, if the Wi-Fi goes down, if Burger smashes your keypad. You know your home is secure. Always try SimpliSafe, see how good it feels to fear less. Go to simplisafe.com slash BS to learn more. SimpliSafe with two I's. SimpliSafe.com slash BS to learn more. Simply Safe with two I's, simplysafe.com slash BS. You will hear from me Thursday night.

We're putting up the mega, mega, mega playoff preview slash end of the year awards podcast with Ryan Rosillo, the star of NBA Support Group. So until then.