The Bill Simmons Podcast - A New Way to Look at KD With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre, Plus ‘The Rehearsal’ Is Insane With Juliet Litman

Episode Date: August 21, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre to discuss Kevin Durant’s ultimatum for the Brooklyn Nets, and whether his trade value has diminished (4:40), before Bill takes a new perspective on the KD saga and discusses LeBron James’s contract extension with the Lakers (28:47). Then, Bill talks with Juliet Litman about Nathan Fielder’s return to TV in HBO’s bizarre show ‘The Rehearsal’ (1:16:28). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre, and Juliet Litman Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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wherever you get your podcasts. And then that's really it. I was gone for five weeks. Took a break from this podcast and most ringer stuff, but it was really nice to refill. I picked the perfect time. I was hoping there was going to be

nothing going on in the sports scene, nothing major that I would have really regretted being away. Like, I don't know, KD getting traded to the Celtics, something like that. The biggest thing that happened was Bill Russell passing away, which that was the one time I was really bummed that I didn't have the podcast going. But we ran an old book of basketball episode that we put up that, in my opinion, captured just about all my feelings on one of the great athletes in the history of

professional sports and the greatest winner we've ever had. So there you go. Coming up on this podcast, we're going to talk basketball and KD, and I'm going to unleash a pretty ambitious theory on you with Rob Mahoney and Wosley Lambree, aka Big Wos. And then Juliette Libman and I are going to talk about my favorite TV show of the summer and probably 2022, the rehearsal, Nathan Fielder's new show, which boy, was it polarizing. I cannot wait to talk about that. We're going to do football on Tuesday and on Thursday. Listen, I did a ton of homework. I am the most ready I've been. I know Sal calls me an NBA hole,

but I am so ready for this football season. So we're going to be tackling that on Tuesday and on Thursday, but basketball on the hearse. So coming up next, it's going to be back first. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this on a late Sunday morning. Wazni Larabrie is here, a.k.a. Big Waz. Rob Mahoney is here. They've been doing podcasts on the Ringer NBA show at least a little bit.

I've been gone for the last five weeks. It was just about the most dead NBA time I can remember. Rob, what was the last time it was this dead where we were struggling this much for things to talk about? I feel like maybe going into Eric Bledsoe's hair salon holdout. Is that the last time? It really does feel unusually quiet. Yeah.

And Woz, they just, everyone's trying to get Kevin Durant stories going. It feels like that story was in the exact same place where I left five weeks ago. I don't really know what's changed

other than there was some weird ultimatum where he's basically threatening one of the wealthier people in the world. Hey, you're going to have to fire your coach or GM, or I'm not going to be happy with my four-year guaranteed contract. It went as planned. But other than that, we didn't learn anything about the Durant situation, did we? I don't think the news that it was basically like he's fed up with management was out there.

Although, you know, you kind of got the sense that he felt a way about how they were handling the Kyrie thing, which is management. Right. Like who's in charge of that? It's Sean Marks and his staff. So, you know, by proxy, you can just do the process of elimination and say, all right, so he's pissed off at them. But the news coming out of it that he tells the owner to his face, like, fire those guys or else I'm going to be pissed off about being there. That was news. But I don't even know what's the end game of that, Rob. Like, the owner says no.

And now everybody stares at each other. He's not going to hold out. He loves playing basketball. Yeah. And there's nowhere for him to go. And I think in a weird way, he's sabotaged his trade value now to the point where initially, remember people like Bobby Marks were saying, I think it was Bobby Marks was saying, this is going to be the biggest haul for a superstar we've ever had. That's not the case. He's 34 years old. People know he wants to leave. So it feels like we're in the 40 cents a dollar range. And yet at the same time, they're not going to trade him and they have no picks anyway. So it just feels like they're running it back. He's going to go back. It's going to be super awkward. And we're going to talk about it way too much. But people are talking about his legacy and this is bad for his legacy.

He's the one guy, I feel like he cares so much about his legacy, but then also doesn't care at all. Where he's like, I just want to play basketball. He's one of those guys. But then he's on Twitter arguing with people who are criticizing him. What do you make of him, just big picture? I think the same thing I make of most people, which is that we're all tremendously complicated and don't usually know what we want. And we veer and strive towards certain things and we fail and we strafe back and forth. But I guess I'd be curious, Bill, where you see the sabotage of his trade value coming from? Because I'm on the same page. I don't know that we learned a lot about KD during this period. He still seems like the same guy we've known him to be for the last couple

years. So where do you see the tanking happening in terms of what the trade return is going to be? Well, first of all, the suitors have fallen by the wayside, right? Yeah. The Suns are done. The Suns are done. I think the Celtics have looked at this from a lot of angles and we could talk about them in a second, but do we want to mess up what we have? We're the favorites to win the title right now. We were damn close to winning the title last year and we weren't even quite ready for it. Now we're better and deeper. We have the experience. Why would we mess with that?

And then you go through the rest of the week and pretty quickly you start looking at weirdo deals like, all right, what if the Lakers offer them Davis and Westbrook and both of their firsts for Kyrie and KD? Who says no? You start thinking about that or you think like, all right, what if New Orleans just said, we'll give you Brandon Ingram and that's it. And the Nets are like, oh, we can get out of this. Or if the Celtics just said, you know what? Jalen Brown and Derek White, that's it. No picks at all. And I guess my question is, would the Nets be that desperate to get rid of Durant

that they would just accept that? I just don't see a scenario where they would. Why would you do that? Here's where I agree with Bill about the tanking of the trade value, Rob, is that, again, I got to keep mentioning this because people don't remember the last year in Golden State. He was fucking miserable. Yes. Doing the shit where they have the time out and he's hanging out by himself under the basket just literally moping around. It was just like, because I have a lot of

friends that cover the Warriors and there was this thing where every time KD wore a white socks baseball cap to a press conference, he would just go off on people. And again, this is the most talented team of all time. They could withstand that. And it was fine.

And they damn near just won the championship anyway that year. But Brooklyn ain't that. And so if he carries himself in that manner all year round, that's just going to suck. And nobody wants to be around that nonsense. But it's going to suck. But nobody wants to be around that nonsense. But it's going to suck, but would other teams be opting into that? I just can't understand why

Brooklyn only has this one shot to recoup whatever they can recoup for Kevin Durant. I think you take a little bit of suck to try to get through to the other side with some kind of daylight. It may not be the greatest haul we've ever seen in NBA history, as I think a lot of people probably expected

just given where KD is in his career and how valued his skill set is in the league, but they can get something probably better than Jalen Brown and Derek White, I would think, if they want to play it out. I would think they can play it out. Well, the problem is the teams that have the best packages for him are teams that he

probably would be equally unhappy with, right? Like, New Orleans on paper has the best package for him if they knew they were getting a completely happy KD. Yeah. But you just don't know that. And you don't know where his head's at. I thought it was interesting. He was hanging out with Trey Young this weekend.

And it's a lot of like, eye emoji. Whoa. But then you look at Atlanta's rosters that go on the trade machine and try to figure out a fair trade for the Nets with Atlanta's roster. It's like, here's John Collins, DeAndre Hunter, and a Kong Wu.

And one more first rounder that we have a million years from now. And is that enough? And guess what? The Nets are like, no, that's not even close. We're good, actually. You could three-way it where they get Jalen Brown, Atlanta gets Jalen Brown, the Celtics get Durant, and the Celtics throw more in. But I don't think a three-way deal

happens with this. To me, I'm going to take a deep breath. I think he either stays in Brooklyn or he goes to one team. I think there's only one team on the table right now. I think it's the Celtics. I really do. Because I disagree with Rob. I think Jalen Brown is the best piece you can get out there. Just think about some of the packages we're hearing for Donovan Mitchell.

I'm sorry. I think Jalen Brown is a much better player, a much better piece. He's a big-ass wing. He guards the hell out of people. And he's shown one-on-one capability. Like, they're both terrible at passing to people. I don't understand why I would want Donovan Mitchell more than Jalen Brown. I just don't.

And I think he's just the best piece. If Jalen Brown went out on the open market, what would he fetch? A bunch of first-round picks down the line and all kinds of stuff. So to me, he would have been the DeJounte Murray package, at least. At least that. With one year left on his deal, though? Two years.

Is he not a free agent? He's not a free agent next summer? Two years. And of course, there's the complication where you can't extend them because the Celtics got them on a cheaper deal. But like... But no, hold on. Hold that thought because that's the case for Boston.

By the way, Boston was not the team I was going to say because I don't think they're trading for Kevin Durant. But the case for it, and it's pretty easy to figure out, they can only extend them 120%. This weird CBA rule that I don't even really know why they have it. And it's pretty easy to figure out. They can only extend them 120%. This weird CBA rule that I don't even really know why they have it. It does penalize you. Well, it does penalize you for getting your guy and his second contract on a pretty good price. And now you're screwed for the third contract. The case is with the media rights deal coming up in a couple of years and the salary cap is going to spike in a crazy way. Like it did in 2016,

where all of a sudden Evan Turner and Joakim Noah were $72 million guys in Luau Dang. Great summer, hilarious summer for a lot of reasons. And the case is when that happens, Jalen Brown now is worth $60 million a year. The max contract, when that meteorites thing happened, just do the math.

People aren't prepared for this, but guys are going to be making $70 million a year, $75 million a year. And if I'm Jalen Brown's agent, I'm like, well, why would we do an extension with the Celtics? We either do a one-year deal to get ready for when that cap really jumps in three years, but we're not locking it down. So if you're the Celtics and you're looking at it, you're like, is this guy, is this guy gone in two years? This is basically where the Spurs were with Murray. And if you think he's gone in two years, that's when you start thinking about the Kevin Durant

thing. I just feel like. Hold on, Bill, just, I don't want to interrupt you, but I think another part of it, and I've heard whispers of it, that the Celtics might not be too excited about giving this guy 35% of their cap for five years. Like they might not want to do that. You know what I'm saying?

But maybe there's a better trade than 34-year-old Kevin Durant for four years. On the flip side, you have Durant locked in on that price. And when the cap jumps, he's still locked in on that price. So basically in cap jumps, he's still locked in on that price. So basically in year four, you're getting all-time discount superstar,

which I guess is good. But there's an unhappiness element with Durant that I think you have to weigh at this point that I want to talk about a little bit later. Why was he unhappy on his last three teams? Why were there three situations in a row where he's like, I got to get out of here? And that's the piece if you're the Celtics

and you're the good shit lollipop right now, it's going great. You get this young team, everyone's on great contracts, everybody likes each other. It came damn close. Do I wish Jason Tatum was a little more upset about how the finals played out

and how bad he was? Yeah, I do. I got to be honest remember matt what happened to magic johnson after the 1984 finals just being in exile just being rocky four in the mountain just like i gotta get back i was so humiliated jason tatum it's like it's like you would have thought they won lebron after 2011 but lebron was like thoroughly embarrassed and stuff and you know he He went into the cave and the funk and he came back stronger.

Yeah, but that's what Warriors meant to Celtics team. They lost. They ran out of gas in a real way and they were terrible. Basically, second half game four and then game five, game six. And now, like a month later, it's like, oh, we should have won.

It's like, should you? Should you have won? The Warriors kicked your ass and they were way tougher than you. You guys couldn't play four straight playoff rounds in a row. I need a little more,

God damn, we're so mad how this turned out. We were so close. Like, I was encouraged that Tatum is working on his pull-up jumper

and finished it with contact. That was all over the place. It's like, all right, that's good. At least he gets that piece. But did I want as a fan? Rob,

is it corny that as a fan I wanted a little more just a couple tears rolling down the cheek after that finals? We came with it two games! So you want a more theatrical experience is what you're saying. You want him out in the Australian outback. You want him going on a vision quest of some kind.

I want him like Jason Tatum went back to St. Louis and he's living in a log cabin and all he's doing is chopping wood every day and thinking about how bad he was in the finals. That would be much better. Anyway, with the Celts, I don't think that's the team. Even though I do wonder about the Jalen Brown longevity. I don't know if you'd make that decision now.

I'm going to take a deep breath. I think the team's the Warriors. I can't believe I'm saying that. But from the little birdies that I've heard, as you know, I have little birdies. My information is usually correct. Guy by the name of Joe Lacob. Might've heard of him. Thousand points to late. What was his thing? Thousand, thousand. Late years ahead. Late years ahead. Joe. Pretty enchanted by the dynasty possibilities right now. And we could argue whether they're a dynasty already. I've

made my case. Everyone got mad at me, but it's like four and eight years, but you missed the playoffs in two. You bottomed out. To me, a dynasty is sustainable excellence, whatever. We can argue that another time. You bring Durant back and now it's like, could we win the next three titles in a row? Now we're in Russell Celtics, 60s Canadians territory. And the thing is, they have the best assets for a trade. They have the most that Brooklyn would be like, all right, that makes sense.

And then from a Golden State standpoint, you could actually say they would improve. The question for me, Rob, either Draymond or Clay has to be in that trade because for them, you can't trade Wiggins. Wiggins was your second best guy in the finals. He does all this defensive stuff.

You can't lose that. You have to add KD. A, would they have the balls to trade Klay? And B, would they have the balls to trade Draymond? What do you think? I think at this moment in time, neither would be the case. i would see them being more likely to trade wiggins even if he is maybe more indispensable in his own way to what they do

and some of it i think is just skill set stuff some of it is those guys are like local legends at this point yeah and you have to be absolutely positive about what you're doing and have a lot of certainty in the steps you're making but sports fans fans are hypocrites, Rob. We know this. We do. But we also just laid out the extensive case for why KD was so miserable in his final season in Golden State and how miserable that made everything around him.

He didn't like Kerr. He did turn on Steve Kerr and basically everybody else there. He would go out of his way in press conferences to contradict what Steve Kerr's messaging was. Like, Steve Kerr said something about, like, KD needs to get mad and take control and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And they asked KD about it. He said, I thought it was about joy. I thought it was about loving the game. Like, he was doing the absolute most that last season. But to Rob's point about... That's like the shit Van does with the ringer. I hate when he does that. Fucking passive aggressive.

I'm kidding, Van. I love you. To Rob's point, when he talks about people and their complexities and they're constantly growing and evolving, maybe being away from the Golden State situation has made the heart grow fonder for what he had over there. And maybe KD would change his mind. I would be so surprised if he was just like,

let's run that whole thing back. Yeah, but think how quick this, yeah, well, here's one of the stranger things. So this is a little more birdie. See, I didn't get to talk about this stuff for five weeks. KD and Harden, this is what I heard. They don't talk after the trade. They basically go radio silent

on each other. They run into each other. I think in London. At the Travis Scott concert. Yep. They hang out all weekend. And by the end of the weekend, KD is sniffing around on Philly.

And there's a whole Philly thing that happens for three days where it's like everybody just, well, it's basically Harris and Maxie and whatever picked that up. It's just, it's not even close.

But Harden and Katie were back. But that's, that's my point. It's like, given that we know the NBA is basically like, you know, in eighth grade, all girls school where there's some friend groups just switch every two

months. Is it inconceivable that he could just get back together with Golden State, that he could have one dinner with Steve Kerr at like, I don't know, someplace in La Jolla, where they hash out all their shit? Remember, this is the part with the KD. Everybody talks about how unhappy his last season was. And it was, to a lot of degrees. He has the big blowout with Draymond.

He was fucking incredible in the playoffs before he got hurt. Do you remember that round and a half where we were like, oh my God, this guy is at a higher level than LeBron. This guy is now the best player in the league. That's the thing though. That game he scored, and I keep bringing this up, that game he scored 50 points against the Clippers. I was at his post-game press conference, That game he scored, and I keep bringing this up, that game he scored 50 points against the Clippers.

I was at his post-game press conference, and he just snaps at Chris Haynes for no reason whatsoever. You just won the game. That's un-American. In which you dropped 50. And Chris Haynes asked him the most innocuous, regular, normal question after a game like that, and he just flips on the dude.

And I was like, what a miserable cat. So, you know, I wonder if he would want to go back and be in that headspace. But also, what I mentioned to Rob on our Ringer NBA show is that back in the days,

KD had a reputation for being very fickle, very malleable, flip-flopping, whatever you want to call it. He had a reputation for that, that annoyed certain people. So maybe that'll be the case and he'll change his mind all over again. Rob, the king of new media, Draymond Green.

Which I always thought the king of new media was Jalen Rose since he invented new media and was a player and media member and then crossed immediately over to the media member and did all the same stuff Draymond's doing now. Whatever. Draymond's got a year left in his deal. Yeah. There was legitimate deteriorating offensive performance last year. He was a liability for them for chunks of the playoffs.

And then I thought was brilliant in the last couple of games where it's like he summoned old school Draymond and was still able to do some of that veteran stuff. Like game two, I thought that some of the ways he punked the Celtics

was really important for that series. And he talked about that after, I thought pretty eloquently on JJ's pod. But in general, he's about to hit his mid thirties. He's got one year left on his deal. He's going to expect a lot of money. NBA history says, don't pay this next contract.

This is not somebody that you can pay 30 plus million to. When the arrow, at least offensively, is pointing way down, we don't know physically how he's going to evolve over the next couple years. He's not a big guy. It's not like a center where you can, even though you lose a little bit, you still have your size. To me, I think he's the guy who's in that deal if they get KD, because you figure like, well, if we're not going to pay him a year from now, then now that he becomes the contract, now it's like him. He put Moses Moody in there, who I think is going to be really good. Kaminga's in there. Maybe Jordan Poole. Some picks.

Yeah, but maybe if you're trading Draymond, maybe you keep Wiseman. I don't know. Or maybe Wiseman's in it. I don't know. But my point is they could put together 90 cents in the dollar. But if you were them, Rob, would you feel comfortable giving Draymond that contract? And we'll take a break after this. I think part of the issue

with trading Draymond in general is his value is so much higher to the Warriors than almost anyone else. Right. That if you're the Nets, why would you do it? What does Draymond get you unless there's a third team involved? I think there's probably a handful of teams

that could really use what Draymond offers. To the other teams, he's not that valuable. It's just the particulars of his skill set. To your point about his offense, Golden State is probably the absolute best case offensive fit for him in terms of what he can do and who he accentuates.

You replace Steph Curry with Seth Curry in Brooklyn. I don't know you're getting anything resembling the same kind of function. What about him and Simmons? You don't like the him and Simmons offense? Just handing it off to each other back and forth for 20 seconds. It's just handoffs. It's like an NFL offense.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think they would have to spin him or Simmons to a third team. Yeah. And, you know, the Pistons make a lot of sense for him. He's a big Michigan dude. And if you're the Pistons and you got Cade and Jaden Ivey in back-to-back drafts, now you're thinking,

oh, Draymond, now we have some toughness. You start having ideas. I think Portland would make sense for Draymond, too. They've been obsessed with him for a while. How about the Lakers? Sure. I just think with Draymond, he's so central to what they do

in the sense that like they don't run out a bunch of Tatums and Browns and Time Lords and Marcus Smarts, the Warriors on defense. Like they're not running out gangbusters. Like they need him

to be the linchpin of what they do defensively. And that whole thing just falls apart if Draymond's not a part of it. So the three of us agree, it's probably not Golden State. And I think that's the one team. It either has to be Golden State or Boston at this point.

I don't think it's Boston. I think Boston's happy with their team. I don't think it's Golden State, but I do think the conversation that the three of us just had might've been a conversation people had with joe lake up at some point this summer as he's like but but no but wait what about kd but i think kd ends up staying i think they they come to an uneasy truce and then in december who knows maybe it blows up

the thing is the nets might be pretty good and i pretty good, I mean they might be like a secret contender if they get anything out of Simmons. Kyrie, KD, Simmons, Curry. Except Curry. TJ Warren off the bench. They have a really good team on paper. But as Kyrie Irving has proven. He'll set the paper on fire. We're going to take a break

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I didn't tell you guys I was doing this. So KD over the last five weeks, as you know, I'm a huge Kevin Durant fan. Not my favorite non-Seltic, Steph Curry is, although my feelings are hurt by the pain that Steph Curry inflicted on the Boston franchise. I feel like he owns whatever the new Boston Garden is called

until we have to beat him there. But right now, at least everyone's paying rent to him. I love KD as a player. I've always rooted for him. I think he's had a really tough life, which I don't think it's factored in enough sometimes with some of these guys.

I think he had a really rough childhood. I think he's overcome a lot of obstacles and I think that has to be weighed in. I'm just really impressed by the person that he's turned into and I really like him. Nobody defended him over the last five weeks. Now you could say, well, why would anybody defend him? This guy, he created his situation in Brooklyn.

This is his fault. It made me wonder, what does the defense of Kevin Durant look like? It's flimsy, but it's there. All right, well, I have it for you. So I'm going to lay this out. Again, this is an exercise. Oh, this is how you actually feel.

No, this is an exercise. This is a new segment I'm creating called Defense Attorney. So you're just putting it out there. Kevin Durant hires me as his defense attorney and I have to get a media narrative out there to make people kind of rethink how they felt, right? I'm not working for him. I'm on the payroll.

Does that make us the prosecutors? What's happening here? Yeah. You're like the jury right now. I'm laying out this case and you have to tell me if the case seems logical to you or not. All right. So there's four key moments in the Kevin Durant cycle. We're going to go through them one at a time. He gets blamed for all of these, but if you go through them one at a time, they're a little less flimsy than I think we realize. Number one, he wanted to leave Oklahoma City in 2016.

Bulldozed his way out. After they blew a 3-1 lead against the Warriors in the playoffs he was a free agent during a season where there was a huge cap spike this once in a generation cap spike that opened the possibility for him to go to any team in the league

this is a team they talked him into a 5 year extension with no player option in year 5 which nobody did. So he got bad advice on that. Right after they do that, like a year and a half later, they're like,

do a five-year extension. It's so hard for people to come here. It's so hard for us to keep free agents. This will show you're committed to the team. And then a year and a half later, they trade James Harden. They trade James Harden for Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb,

and what ended up being the 13th pick in the draft. Drink at home, folks, if you're playing the OKC James Harden game. Was OKC a huge luxury tax team while KD was there? Absolutely fucking not. The answer was no. There's this window where he goes toe-to-toe

with LeBron in the 2012 finals. Miami wins, but that series is closer than you realize. He's stuck with Russell Westbrook. Who has been more maligned as we learn more about basketball and the way it either should or should not be played? Who has become the focal point of, this is how we shouldn't play basketball? Russell Westbrook.

Katie played with him for eight years. To piggyback on what Bill's saying, where I agree with you, if you look at Russell Westbrook's playoff stats from game five of the Western Conference Finals in 2016 on, KD was a goddamn genius for getting the fuck up out of there. Right. Well, then, and he wanted to go to a bigger city, right? He grows up in D.C., spends nine months of his life at the University of Texas, goes to Seattle for a year, loves it. Team moves.

Spends the next eight years at Oklahoma City. Now, he's a guy who's in his late 20s. It's like, it's time for me to see the world. That was why I defended the decision at the time. I was like, this makes sense to me. He wants a new experience. He doesn't want to spend 20 years at Oklahoma City. Eight years in the prairie is long enough for anybody and everybody.

Excuse me. So we all agree. He takes shit for leaving OKC, but we all agree this was the right move. Yes. No problem with it. Jerry, I would like you to submit that evidence right there. all agree he takes shit for for leaving okc but we all agree this was the right move yes no jury i would like you to submit that evidence right there number two takes a ton of shit for signing with golden state in 2016 i'm going to give you all the other options and you tell me where he should have signed the lakers or the knicks who were fucking dumpster fires at that point. So he's going to leave OKC, a team that almost, I think,

could have won the West pretty easily with a couple breaks. The Klay Thompson game, obviously. But he's in the mix every year continuing for a title. He's going to go start over for the... He's going to follow Kobe on the Lakers. Kobe's like larger than life.

He's going to do that on the fucked up Lakers? He's going to go to the Knicks and play for James Dolan? He didn't even do that in 2018. All right, so cross them off. Philly, he could have gone to. Philly's year three of the process. They got, you know, he's not doing that.

That would have been nice, though. Yeah, but he's basically the, you know, it's another young team. He's got to wait a couple years. The Spurs could have gone to play with Kawhi and LaMarcus Aldridge. And that was a team that I think had won 67 games in 2016.

To me, that's not much different from a front-running standpoint. That team didn't win the title, neither did Golden State. He could have forced Miami or Houston to sign and trade for him, which I don't feel like we had the wherewithal back then to do the Jimmy Butler. I've decided I want to go to Miami.

Well, we don't know how we're going to get you. We'll figure it out. That mechanism wasn't in place. So really, the only other two options were go to the Celtics and basically play with, uh, they, they were a young team.

You had Isaiah Thomas. They just drafted Jalen Brown. They had the, they knew they had the Nets pick. Um, that wouldn't have been a contender, but would have been the building of something or go to Washington and play with wall and Beal.

I completely forgot that was a thing all year, that season. The homecoming, the DC boy and all of that. That was a running theme throughout that season about KD's free agency. Obviously, ultimately didn't end up coming to fruition. But yeah, that was the heartwarming pick. That's the pick. So why didn't he want to go with DC?

Because now that's basically a big three. That's a good team. Wall's completely healthy at that point. I don't think he wanted to be home. Most athletes don't like being a professional superstar in the place they grew up. There's so much baggage that comes with that. There's family members and extended family

and friends. I think he just wanted to go to a new place. Rob, I think the Golden State thing was defensible. I think it's defensible. Especially when you lay out all those alternatives.

I would take staying in OKC over any of those other options. And so then it's if you want to go somewhere new, if you want a different kind of challenge, if you want a different kind of players around you.

I mean, Golden State made a lot of sense at the time. I'm not really never really understood why people bagged on him so hard for that particular decision. Like once he decides to get up out of there, who would not want to play with the Warriors? And they lost the title. That's to me the key. If they had won the title,

I think it has a different feel, right, Wes? I will say this. I was amongst the people that vigorously defended KD's choice to do this. It was clearly the best basketball move at the time. All of that. But after watching it play out and how easily they just smoked everybody, I turned on the decision. I was like, this is not as fun. I'm sorry. It just wasn't as fun. It turned on the decision. I was like, this is not as fun. I'm sorry. It just

wasn't as fun. It wasn't as compelling. They completely destroyed people. And so I understood the backlash afterwards. Ladies and gentlemen, the jury, it's not our job to tell you what's fair and unfair with the 2016-17 season. The point is, it was the best basketball decision for him. It was the best life decision for him. It wasn't as much of a front-running decision as people thought because they did lose the title. And then on top of it,

he had all this business stuff he wanted to do with Rich Kleiman, which you've seen blow out. That's what I was going to say, too. He made a lot of money. He made a lot of money. Investing this tech stuff, VC stuff. He made a lot of money out in made a lot of money. Investing this tech stuff, VC stuff.

He made a lot of money out in Golden State. So that alone is justified. All those tech dudes love bringing the basketball guys in for meetings. They take pictures with them. It's like, here, you should invest in this. Or, Jates, get on our board. Or, here, take 1%. Then they go home and they brag to their kids about it. And KD and a couple of other of these players have cleaned up.

So I actually think all in all, the Golden State thing was defensible unless you want to say re-sign with OKC for one more year, give it one more run, and then go free agency in 2017 with better options. But we just established

in part one of our KD defense, he didn't want to play with Russell Westbrook anymore. And guess what? None of us would have wanted to spend more than eight years playing with Russell Westbrook either. LeBron lasted, what, a year? LeBron lasted three months.

He's like, get this fucking guy out of here. How can we trade him? The option to go to Golden State was kind of a one-time situation, financially speaking. It was then or never. And obviously, I did some podcasts in the first year. He was so enthralled by this form of basketball

that he had always dreamed of being involved in. He had been all one-on-one stuff on OKC. And now there's movement and people playing off each other and people sacrificing for a bigger cause. And I still think that's the best team I've ever seen. You know, my heart wants to say it's the 86 Celtics, but I just think that 17 Warriors team just with the inside outside game they have is ridiculous.

All right, let's go to number three because we only have two more of the KD defense. We've gone through two and it's a little more palatable than I think people realize. Leaving Golden State in 2019. I'm going to make the case for it. Already got his two titles.

Had the fight with Draymond, which was pretty ugly by all accounts. Draymond got suspended for a game. That's how ugly it was. And it wasn't just on the court. It happened again in the locker room. And I think there was a lot of stuff going on in general and some things that might've been said. We know by then it's Steph Curry's team and it's Steph Curry's city. I think KD belatedly realizes that over the course of three years. How can I win here when this team belongs to this guy?

A theme discussed ad nauseum on this podcast. I don't need to cover it. But Steph's team, Steph's city, he means to Golden State in the Bay Area, what Kobe meant to the Lakers, what Larry Bird meant to the Celtics, what Magic meant to the Lakers before Kobe. Like it's just the Jordan to Chicago.

It's the rarest point you can get to. Doc Gooden to New York. Doc Gooden to New York. One title. And it becomes a no-win situation. He's also, he's developing his whole version of LeBron and Maverick and that whole company that those guys have.

Those guys have the West Coast now because LeBron's in LA. Well, we'll go to the East Coast. This is a good business move for us and it's going to be Knicks or Nets. You lay it out like that, Rob. Can you totally kill KD as a member of the jury? Can you totally kill him for leaving after three years? No, I have no problem with him leaving. I think where I would maybe this is out of turn as a juror if I can object. Can I strenuously object? You can strenuously object. Don't team up with Kyrie Irving.

That's not the guy. Go East Coast. Pick your co-star, but you're just coming off of an experience with the lowest maintenance superstar in the league in Steph. I think that probably made things look and feel a little easier than they sometimes can be when you're running alongside

another highly ambitious, highly motivated, a guy who's used to having a lot of things in their own orbit, and I think KD picked very, very poorly. I don't even know what number four is. I'm assuming it's him wanting to leave brooklyn but i think we're going to tie that into kairi too for the most part to be honest

with you where i'll disagree with rob is that kd and people know this he does he compares himself to lebron a lot a lot of his moves are based on something related to leBron and how things have worked out for LeBron. So he's like, look, LeBron made it work with Kyrie in 2016. It was great. I'm just as good, if not better than LeBron. Get Kyrie on my team. Watch me cook. I think that was his mentality about it. It's like this guy's proven to be a championship level player

and teammate and second banana. And LeBron proved it. And I'm better than LeBron. So watch me prove it. I love it. I love when the jurors help with that case. Was, you're no stranger to being enchanted by the charms on a basketball court of Kyrie Irving. Yes.

Man, I remember when I first really started paying attention to Kyrie, which is when LeBron went over there and I was just like, God damn, this kid never passes the fucking ball. Right. But then when you get into like nut crunching time and postseason games, really tough possessions with you. The defense knows exactly what you want to do and what you're trying to do. And Kyrie's consistently generating good shots. I'm like, I don't know. There might be something to this dude. It's hard to quit him in that way.

And also, I think KD had talked himself into some universe because he would talk about a lot in any interview he did about, I just want to play basketball. I just love balling. I just love the dudes who work on their craft and whatever. And Kyrie was one of those guys to him. All of it, I don't know, I can kind of see it. And really, I think he looked at that Golden State thing. And I just don't think people realize that when he signed there as like, this is

my real version of going to college now. I've spent nine months at the University of Texas, that barely counts. And then Oklahoma City was my extended whatever. But now, maybe not college, grad school. This is like me going somewhere for a couple of years, learning everything I need to learn, and then eventually realizing I need my own franchise, my own place where I can cook as the main guy. Leaving that Golden State situation is inconceivable as it seems in some ways. He obviously was pretty unhappy by the end of the second season where he just felt like he probably couldn't win as the guy there. I get it. Yeah. He couldn't win in the court of public opinion, right? He went out, beat LeBron,

beat the brakes off of LeBon yes was clearly the best player in the playoffs i mean in the finals playoffs whatever and nobody was like kd is the undisputed king of the mountain king of the nba and that you know that really spun him for a loop and so he was like i'm not gonna get the credit that i deserve while still being on this team and to bring it back to kairi i think what people need to understand about NBA guys and how they think, they really respect people who can do things that they themselves can't. They're so excellent at so many things. And Kyrie gets so much respect because of all the skill work,

because of the footwork, because of the ball hand, because of the shooting, because he's like 5'11". He's finishing over trees in the lane just based off of craft alone. So they see all of this skill. And I've heard multiple people say this. Kyrie might be the most skilled NBA player ever, like just skill-wise. And so I can understand why KD being a basketball purist became very enchanted by Kyrie's wizardry

on the court. I can't object strenuously enough to the Kyrie is the most skilled basketball player ever. I've heard it multiple times. So, and NBA guys say it. Like, absolutely, players in the league say it.

I think there's such a thing, because you're right, this is the unifying theory of Kyrie, is that is how players look at him. That's why they want to team up with him. And there's just such a disconnect between the fact that you admire what this guy does in the lab and the lab is 10% of his life with you. Are you ready for the other 90%? And I would say I'm not. I would sign up for the Steph Curry experience of free and easy, a very organic, a very satisfying

way to play and win versus I'm going to walk on an emotional tightrope every day that we work together. By the way, talk about polar opposites in reputations. Like KD having played with Steph, watching how Steph handled that situation, I admired Steph and the way he went about his business before that, but watching how he dealt with KD, I was like, this guy is the model superstar. He's Tim Duncan. He's Bill Russell. He is what you want in a superstar. Then watching how Kyrie

dealt with having KD on his team, I'm like, god damn. Wow. Just the polar opposites, dude. Listen, I love when the jury helps make my case. One other piece that we left out.

He's, as you said, very competitive with LeBron. LeBron was doing all the same front-running shit. He did it in Miami in 2010, which is why everybody got mad. And then in 2014, he did it again. And it got spun as this, I'm coming home sports illustrated cover.

This is where I'm going to retire. It was all bullshit. He left four years later. He went to Cleveland and I wrote this at the time that I said it over and over again, because it was the best basketball situation. They had the most assets. It was the easiest for him to compete there. He knew Wade was going downhill. He knew they had no cap space at all to add to the team. They just got in their ass kicked by the Spurs. And he knew like, if I go there, that team's been drafted in the top seven of the lottery forever. They have Kyrie. They can flip that Wiggins pick for love and I can win a title there. And that's why he went. So Durant knows all this stuff. And that's, you know,

that at least informs the Golden State situation a little bit. And then they think with Brooklyn, all right, we can build the same thing there with money. All right. Brooklyn's the last piece of this. And this is actually the most important because he's taken the most shit for this. And, you know, as his defense attorney, it's a lot. This is the toughest part of the defense right here. Why did KD sour on Brooklyn? How do you sour on a situation you've

created? What are the reasons? It's simple. He signed up to play with Kyrie. He does his extension last summer with the understanding that they're going to take care of Kyrie because that was the understanding. That's why I'm here. It's this Kyrie thing. And they

went back on that. So he's like, y'all went back on y'all word. I'm done with you guys. That's the, that's the KD version of it. That's just morsel number one. The Kyrie. So why did he turn on Steve Nash? A guy that he clearly helped drive to, to, uh, to the Nets, right?

That was his guy. Everybody said, who knows why they got rid of Kenny Atkinson. There's some theories. They wouldn't let Kyrie play in the road games because the Nets were basically like, we don't want to create this culture where we're one team on the road, another team at home. Well, what happens? They ended up barely making the playoffs and then getting their ass kicked by this hungry, crazy Celtics team, partly because they didn't get five, six, seven more wins because they wouldn't let Kyrie play on the road.

So he's mad about that. What about all the washed up free agents they signed, Was? What about the great Sean Marks? What happened with some of those free agents? Like, relying on LaMarcus Aldridge, Blake Griffin, Paul Millsap.

These were your bullets in the holster. They had to play these guys minutes at center because they depleted their depth to get James Harden in there to placate KD. They had capable, young, athletic guys on their team

and they said, fuck that, because KD wanted James Harden in there. Okay, but he wanted James Harden, but did they have to throw Jared Allen into the trade? I mean, that's the question. Why did they hold the fort? Let me ask you this. Why does KD, why does KD, jury,

why does KD have to trust the wisdom of Sean Marks? What did Sean Marks show him over the last couple years? He did James Harden trade. He just kind of threw Jared Allen in there like he was a fresh set of tires. Bill, let's circle back on the Jared Allen thing. Atkinson got fired partly because

he wouldn't play DeAndre washed up Jordan. Your honor, I object. DeAndre Jordan is not part of these proceedings. I object. Strike it from the record. Strike that from the record. KD regrets the DeAndre Jordan thing. And that's a part of this.

All right. Kyrie extension you mentioned. I got two more things that are really important that I don't feel like have been hit hard enough. On my break, I've been listening to a ton of podcasts. One, I think we could say this. Woes, Sean Marks guy. Fair?

Yes. I think there's a preponderance of evidence that Woj is a Sean Marks guy. One of the reasons we know this is because what Ethan Sherwood Strauss, that PC wrote a couple of weeks ago about how the KD trade demand happens and it's not covered on ESPN for six hours until there's a second thing. So whatever. If you're KD and you feel like, all right, the most powerful NBA scoop reporter is pro Sean Marks and there's leaks or whatever. And it's like, am I on the defensive here? Can I trust my own organization when it seems like the best reporter that's out there

has a better pipeline to the team I work for than my people. So there's some trust eroding there. And then the big one, the Ben Simmons trade. And this is the one, this is the fucking elephant in the room. And I can't believe people didn't see this more. So it's like James is unhappy, whatever. You have two options at that point. Keep them through the season and you have your best chance to win. Or can we spin him into an asset? Well, they figure out they're going to do the Ben Simmons trade. What are the two questions you want to find out with Ben Simmons? Is he healthy? Is he going to play? That's the Nets had one job.

You had one job, Sean Marks. Is Ben Simmons healthy? Can Ben Simmons play? Well, what happens? They trade for Ben Simmons. Can't play. Whoa, his back's hurt? He's having back issues?

No, he might be able to play. Oh, playoff series. I talked about this on my podcast. Game one, my dad and I are watching Ben Simmons wearing this goofy outfit, kind of walking around like he's a tourist that stumbled into the game. At halftime, he walks under the Nets basket

and he just kind of starts casually rebounding for people for 30 seconds and then walks off into the corner. And you could see the Nets looking at each other like, what the fuck is going on with this guy? Who is this guy? And then they think he's going to come back. He doesn't.

And I think that's the biggest thing with this KD, why he wants out of the Nets. He doesn't want to be attached to Ben Simmons. They get rid of Kyrie. Ben Simmons is this quote-unquote second best player on the team. Would you want to be attached to Ben Simmons. They get rid of Kyrie. Ben Simmons is this quote unquote second best player on the team. Would you want to rely on Ben Simmons? Yeah, I think, man, you are hitting the nail on the head. It's the most under-discussed part of all of this.

Under-discussed. It's the idea that the Nets would commit to Ben Simmons rather than Kyrie. Where it's like, say what you will, but even when Ben Simmons rather than Kyrie. Where it's like, say what you will, but even when Ben Simmons plays, last time we saw him, he was stinking up the joint. And the idea that you would commit to a guy who's demonstrated that he's scared to play basketball, period, he's demonstrated that.

Left the chat. Did you see that Rick Baker part? I mean, that's been debunked, though. It's been debunked? It's been debunked. Officially deb been debunked? It's been debunked. Officially debunked? I don't know about officially, but people have, in not so many words,

come out and said that's not true. Whatever. How about this? I believe the story. It seems realistic. What is true is that they thought he was playing in that game. And they thought he was playing that whole day. Everybody went to the stadium,

thought he was going to play, and he just wasn't there. So if you're KD, you're like, so wait a second. Yeah. You're going to trade Kyrie. Instead of extending him, you're going to trade him to the Lakers for Westbrook and two first-rounders, and then I'm stuck with Westbrook again and Ben Simmons,

the dude who was just wandering around like a tourist during our playoff game and wandering into the rebound thing. The idea of choosing Ben over Kyrie if you're KD has to be mystifying just wandering around like a tourist during our playoff game and wandering into the rebound thing. The idea of choosing Ben over Kyrie if you're KD has to be mystifying and piss you the fuck off. But this is what I want to ask you, Bill. Who's going to talk to KD and say, yo, can you at least talk to Kyrie and get him to admit that he overdid the vaccine hesitancy

and he completely fucked your season? Can somebody ask him to admit that he overdid the vaccine hesitancy and he completely fucked your season can somebody ask him to say that demonstrate a regret for screwing people over because of his vaccine hesitancy like if I'm like I'm sorry Katie I don't want to hear shit about this Kyrie dude and lack of commitment and all of that because this dude left everybody out to dry for a ridiculous stance everybody else took it everybody else is fine nobody's turned into a pumpkin or zombie everybody's good after taking their Pfizer shot well apparently you haven't been on the reddit conspiracy board I don't know there's some people out there that don't agree with you and it's fine and the idea that KD is caping for that guy on the idea of commitment or lack thereof from the organization.

I feel like the jury's overstepped their bounds here. You're undermining my case. This is not the point of the exercise. Well, but everything you said, Bill, comes down to two things. One, Kyrie's vaccine hesitancy, which caused all kinds of problems. And two, the Ben Simmons part, which feeds into all of a sudden you're reliant on LaMarcus Aldridge

and Blake Griffin and Paul Millsap and all these guys. Because if Ben Simmons can play, if he can fill minutes, these things are not problems. And maybe none of this happens in the first place. Maybe your whole playoff run is different. Maybe your entire outlook as a franchise is different.

But those two decisions, those are the kinds of things that are going to haunt you for a long time if you're the Nets. We're going to take a break. When we come back, I'm going to give my closing arguments as Katie's defense attorney. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or

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I'm going to put a bow in this KD defense attorney thing. I'll just say gentlemen of the jury, since there's no ladies here. Gentlemen of the jury, you yourself agreed it was time for KD to leave OKC. You yourself agreed that Golden State was the best option for him in the summer of 2016. You yourself agreed that Golden State was Steph Curry's team and that KD had won his

titles there and there was nothing else for him to prove and that he needed to leave to spread his wings. You yourself agree that maybe he had bad taste in a running mate in Kyrie Irving. That is not his fault. People have bad taste. People end up in badrie Irving. That is not his fault. People have bad taste. People end up in bad marriages. People end up with the wrong roommates. People end up in businesses that maybe they shouldn't have invested in.

Stuff happens. We're all humans. We're all humans here. We all agree that the Brooklyn Nets misled him about Ben Simmons' status as a basketball player, that they were saying he was going to be fine. He wasn't. That Ben Simmons' status as a basketball player, that they were saying he was going to be fine. He wasn't. That Ben Simmons was an asset.

None of us think he is. That they were going to re-sign Kyrie Irving. They didn't. Did he have trust with the Brooklyn Nets, with their organization, with the reporters? Obviously, he doesn't. Gentlemen of the jury, I can see why Kevin Durant might have wanted to leave the Brooklyn Nets.

Do I agree with how he got there? No. But I can see it. And that's my case. Thank you. Thank you. This podcast is just an incredible indictment of the entire American legal system. I don't know how we got here.

Now, with all that said, I'm no longer Katie's defense attorney. This does affect his legacy. Yeah. And I think he does this thing now where it's like, what is legacy? What does it matter? It's like, I'm sorry, not to bring up Bill Russell, one of the great athletes we've ever had. But you could see when somebody passes away or somebody retires, at some point, everybody talks in a big picture way about what their career

meant, what they meant to people, what they meant to fan bases, what they stood for, things like that. And that's just how it goes, whether you like it or not. And in this case, some of the erraticness of the last seven years is going to be one of the first things people bring up about him, whether he likes it or not. That's just the way it is. And they're also going to say he's the best probable scoring forward ever. He's one of the best 16 players ever. He's a champion.

He was an unforgettable player to watch. He was a unicorn, all that stuff. But all the career stuff for the last six years is going to be mentioned. Here's what I'll say. That's just the way it is. I think the problem for KD is that we've never seen him sweat and do it. So those two Golden State Championships, you did not sweat at any single moment to do that. Like you can think about like, say, 1998 for the Bulls, right?

Where they didn't lose that Indiana series. Scottie's hurt, all of that. They figure out a way to win. They win the championship. right where they damn near lose that indiana series scotty's hurt all of that they figure out a way to win they win the championship we talked about the embarrassment in 2011 for lebron 2012 guts it out the freaking spurs series in 2013 that was beyond cutting it out miracle stuff um kobe when they get their asses kicked by the cics. And then they come back the next year and they win the championship, like, with the same squad. You know what I mean? Like, these superstars, like, they go through stuff, overcome it.

And we like to see them do that. We ain't never seen KD do this. He's never done that. Well, maybe it'll be this year. I mean, the best possible storytelling outcome, Rob, is he stays in Brooklyn. They get something out of Ben Simmons. They have to keep Kyrie, but Kyrie's in a contract here. So he just lights it up and he's fucking awesome.

And the Nets are really good and really fun to watch. And maybe KD has that moment. The question for me is, I just don't know how many years he has left as a top 10 guy. LeBron was able to kind of thwart the aging curve because he's a once in a generation athlete that we've seen three times in the history of the league. How many more years, in your opinion, does KD have left as a top eight to 10 guy when you throw in some of the injuries and some of the miles that he has on his odometer now?

Yeah, it doesn't feel like that many. Maybe two and change, I would say. Before just enough starts slipping. And I think the LeBron comparison is notable because LeBron, at his age, given all the miles on his legs, still gets to the rim at an elite level. That stage of

Kevin Durant's career is over. He is a jump shooter primarily. He is a shot creator. He's one of the best absolutely at doing those things within the spaces of the floor that he does it. But you're already starting to see some of what has been traded off

through age and injury with him. And I mean, the legacy questions with him are super interesting, whether he wants to shrug them off or not. And a lot of it comes down to, if you're an NBA player, what have you done to make yourself

like someone's guy like someone watching basketball someone enjoying the sport are you with the team long enough to form a bond with a group of people I think for him the answer to that is mostly no do you have the kind of game that is just so undeniable and charismatic people flock to it I think that's probably his best case but other than that it's the story it's like, what have you done, to Waz's point, what have you done to convince people to come along with you on a kind of journey? And we've just gone through all

the twists and turns of Kevin Durant's career. They're really interesting for people on our side of things, but if you're just someone enjoying the sport, keeping up with basketball, I don't know that you find all of this as charming and defensible necessarily as we might. We like to get into this guy's head and his shoes and figure him out, but for average

basketball fans, I'm not sure they're charmed by the Kevin Durant story. Bro, look at what the Golden State Warriors just did. KD leaves. They bottom out. Tough for him. Freaking Clay, HCL, freaking Achilles.

They come back. Steph with his same guys that he won the first one with, Kerr, Bob Myers, the same group, wins another championship, and he's phenomenal in the process. When the hell has that happened in KD's career? It just hasn't. He doesn't have those moments.

And so I don't see why people should feel those attachments. Wonderful player. I will always think of KD as a point in viewing television whenever he's lacing them up. I love watching him play. But as far as the story and, you know, the things that we attach ourselves as human beings, he ain't got that.

I'm still a huge fan of him as a basketball player. I like him as a person player I like him as a person I think he's a flawed guy but I genuinely like him and I really hope he has one more kind of moment in him you know but I think we talked about it briefly when we did the 2016 part

Waz said how it just wasn't that much fun when he went to Golden State even though that team was immortal and I think as the years pass I think we'll appreciate that team just more from that holy fun when he went to Golden State, even though that team was immortal. And I think as the years pass, I think we'll appreciate that team just more from like, holy shit, can't believe that team. But you see what it did. It defanged Steph a little bit in a way

that it just would have been more fun to have Steph with his own team. But really, you go back and it's like, the most fun outcome would have been Washington. When I was going through all those teams again, it's like, you know, Wall was really good till he got hurt. Beal was on the rise. And again, it's like, you know, Wall was really good till he got hurt. Beal was on the rise and Wall, Beal and KD just would have been a really

fun team that would, I think, battled with LeBron and the Cavs, at least for the next couple of years. It would have been fun to have them in Washington. Washington's never mattered. Really, you know, my buddy House, I would say that he grew up with the West Sunsell teams. They won the title, they made the finals, And then they haven't mattered since. And I think if we could have had an instant contender in Washington with those three, and then Golden State, we still would have had. They just would have brought back Harrison Barnes. I just think the league is kind of more fun, more well-rounded now.

Cleveland has more challengers for those last two years of LeBron. KD trying to bring a title home is something. We went through this with Roger Clemens, the Red Sox fans who kind of disowned him after he left. And then he went to Toronto, he went to the Yankees, he went to Houston. He kind of doesn't belong to anybody. And I think one of the outcomes we're going to have

with this LeBron KD generation is these guys, they don't really, they belong to kind of their fans and their social media followers and the people about merchandise, but they don't belong to franchises in the same way, right? Like LeBron, I guess, belongs to Cleveland.

Yeah, he's a kid from Akron. I think so. He's a kid from Akron. Yeah, I guess, but he spent over half his career on other teams. You know? Or you have like Durant. Who does he belong to?

Oklahoma City? Seattle Supersonics. Maybe the Seattle Supersonics. But I think we're going to see this over and over again with this next generation. If these guys bounce around like we all think they're going to.

James Harden, I guess, belongs to houston he spent seven years there he quit on them at the end what's that retirement ceremony gonna be like here he is gave you six good years and then he completely tanked in year seven it's james harden like i i just i wonder like that like if curry and maybe tatum can get there. Maybe Giannis. Although Giannis did that weird Chicago Bulls thing the other day. I just don't get shit like that. And I ignored it. I was like, what is that?

That had to be some kind of troll. What is that? I think he still locked in there. Come on. All right. Quickly. And then we'll go after this. The Lakers thing.

So they give LeBron the extension. You guys talked about this on Ringer NBA. You must have at some point last week, right? No, we didn't. Did you or no? Okay.

The guys on Real Ones did, yeah. Logan and Raj. Right, right, right. They did. So, LeBron gets an extra year. So he's under contract guaranteed for this year and next year.

But then he has a player option for the year after. So they're guaranteed to pay him $97 million for the next two years, which the Laker fans in my life are like, hmm, is that a good thing? I don't even know. He still has the hammer

because when his son finishes either college or the G League or wherever he goes next year and is allegedly going to come in as a lottery pick. I'm hands off on this. I'm hands off on this. We really doing this Bronny going to the NBA thing?

Well, I don't think we should. And I don't know how realistic it is. He's not going to the league, Bill. Maybe he'll go to the G League. He's not an NBA player. Well, he might be when he's 22, 23. Yeah. I think it's ambitious to think he's going to spend a year

and then as a 19-year-old just be an NBA player. Anyway, we don't have to litigate that. But he's keeping his options open for whatever reason. Why would the Lakers be okay with this, Rob? So you're tied into LeBron and Anthony Davis for the next two years. You have Westbrook this year. You're missing all your picks until 27.

I looked at the West. Golden State, Phoenix, Clippers, I think are undeniably better than the Lakers, the 2023 Lakers. Denver, Dallas, Memphis, I would also have ahead of them. Yes, clear. That's six teams now. Now we're in the Minnesota and New Orleans Lakers tier.

I think those two teams are better. I do too. Now it's like, you fucking hate the Lakers. Of course you do. It's like, no, I'm sorry. I think they're the ninth best team in the West. Fandle has them at plus 800 to win the West. If anyone wants to make that bet,

I'll book that action if you want to bet plus 800 on the Lakers to win the West. Rob, wants to make that bet, I'll book that action if you want to bet plus 800 on the Lakers with the West. But Rob, they're the ninth best team in the West. Why are the Lakers trying to lock this down for more years? What's the alternative? Yeah. I think is the problem. And they've walked themselves into that.

If you don't do this, I guess the alternatives would be you don't extend LeBron and then when he becomes a free agent you try to get him to sign for less, a la James Harden and work something out. But I think that's not very realistic. Or you don't extend LeBron and you get off of AD and try to bring in young stuff and

start over. But like... I'm doing a two-year extension and I'm not doing it. So the player option is what bothers you? Yes. I'm locked in, but not really. I'm kind of locked in. What am I locked into? Also, what I thought

was interesting is that LeBron signed the deal on the day that made it so that they couldn't trade him at this year's trade deadline. Right. They cannot trade him for a year. Yeah.

I was like... Here's a team that needs as much optionality as possible, right? Like, they're clearly stuck with Russ. They clearly have to take Russ into the season and then try to flip him December range. But there's like a disaster model, right? LeBron's missed 20-plus games the last three years. He's on pace to play the most games, minutes,

whatever you want to say in the history of the league. Davis is never healthy. There's always a different reason for him not to be playing. He wasn't very good. And he looked like a guy who just wasn't the same guy that he was three years ago. Yeah. I don't really love the role players at all.

I think if you were grading the teams, your players three through 15, to me, they're in the bottom 25th percentile, right? I would say their three through 15, to me, they're in the bottom 25th percentile, right? I would say their three through 15 would be probably worst eight in the league. So they have really no injury luck at all. And they're going to have to spin Westbrook just to be competitive. But there's also a scenario where they could just really suck again if one of those two guys gets hurt. I would have kept the optionality. To me, the possibility of being able to trade him in December, January,

February is more important, but we've seen Jeannie bus do this. Like she likes locking. She'd be like, you could see her like on her deck going, well, it'd be cool if he broke the points record here. Yeah.

And he gave us a title already and we have to take care of them, but it's not the smart basketball move. It's just not. Am I just a schmuck for thinking that is kind of cool? This is one of the greatest players in NBA history. He wants to finish his career with your franchise, presumably. You have him on a similar timeline as

AD now in terms of their contracts. I think I'm okay with that, even if we are the seventh, seventh, seventh team in the West. And you have to say, look, we are not trading the 27 and 29 first. We're just not. We have mortgaged enough of our future for this.

We have immense respect for you. We hope you break the record here. But we've spent enough on the assets. Now you have to deliver something to us would be my take. Yeah, but also I think the Lakers, the reason why I don't get too concerned about these draft picks and all of that, like they'll get another freaking really great player to force their way to LA. It's just what constantly happens to that damn team.

Whether it becomes like... Can I pause you on that? Sure, go ahead. That was not the case in the entire mid-2010s. The only reason LeBron went there was because he wanted to move to LA. He wanted his kids to go to school there and they had this whole entertainment thing they wanted to blow out. But then he went there and the

domino fell that AD forced his way there. Right? So it's like, they just have to get fortunate once. They didn't even take a meeting with them in 2016. They were ice cold. And there's no reason to think that's not going to happen again. It's not like they're the most well-run franchise.

I think players will still want to play for the Lakers. We said this in 2015. It's not like they're the most well-run franchise. I think players will still want to play for the Lakers. We said this in 2015. It wasn't the case. 2014, 15, 16, 17, nobody wanted to go there. And remember, we used to say this with the Knicks too. Guess what? KD and Kyrie,

they'll get them. No, nobody wanted to go there. The Knicks have never had a track record of it happening. The Lakers had a lull. They've had a freaking 50-year track record of important players forcing their way over there from Kareem to Shaq. I think Miami has that now. I think Miami took that championship belt. Maybe.

I don't think so, man. I really think that lull did happen where it was like for sure you'd go on twitter and lakers fans are mocking up every single superstar with a lakers jersey and it was pathetic for a four-year run it was really disgusting to watch on twitter but like that's been a blip in the history of the franchise they get guys man and i don't see any reason to believe that they won't in the future even if teeny bus isn't great rob i didn't in the future. Even if Jeannie Buss isn't great. Rob, I didn't watch the 10-part Lakers Hulu series yet, but I'm going to assume,

since the Laker fans always say they have 17 titles because they shoehorn this five Minnesota titles in there, I'm going to assume the first two parts are about the Minneapolis Lakers. That seems like a fair assumption for a state media product. 17 titles, 17 rings, 17 titles. So how many Minneapolis Laker parts are there? I'm just curious. Is that so part three they moved to LA?

Because you got to get those two titles, two parts in about Minneapolis. Count those. I am always stunned by the pettiness between Celtics and Lakers fans. And I don't know why. I'm always surprised. How pettiness between Celtics and Lakers fans. And I don't know why. I'm always surprised. How do you think the OKC fans are going to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the 1979 Supersonics title?

What do you think in 2029? OKC's one title in 1979 in Seattle. A team they didn't have. Get out of here, Minneapolis thing. So Lakers. I think Russ Russ goes starts the season I think it's super awkward

this is another thing I don't know if this has been discussed how fucking awkward the preseason is going to be this year we have this Brooklyn situation

and this Lakers situation that are going to be off the charts weird right the Brooklyn thing imagine the first day in Brooklyn imagine the first day in Lakers like Russ situation that are going to be off the charts weird, right? The Brooklyn thing. Imagine the first day in Brooklyn.

Imagine the first day in Lakers like Russ. So kind of a strange summer, but I know you were enthused to be back in the Lakers uniform again. Like what do you, how do you even ask him a question? At least with the Lakers is one guy with the nets. It's three weird things happening. It's Kyrie. It the Nets, it's three weird things happening. It's Kyrie. It's KD. But then it's also Ben Simmons

is a weird thing to throw in there. Like, this dude hasn't played in damn near two years. I would say Ben Simmons is a weird thing to throw into anything. Dinner, a cocktail party, a movie screening. When is it not going to be weird with Ben Simmons?

And we're supposed to expect he's just 100% healthy. By the way, he hasn't played basketball now 16 months. That whole thing is a mess. Yeah. Just a mess. It's a tough trade. Tough trade.

You won't see a lot of Sean Marks criticism though. And granted, KD, KD was driving the hardened trade. That's one see a lot of Sean Marks criticism, though. And granted, KD was driving the Harden trade. That's one where everybody gets blamed, right? You're blaming the franchise. You're blaming the player. That's just like a complete shit show. With the Lakers thing, though,

I was trying to think of moves, and it's clearly AD because now that they've locked in LeBron, if they had to make a panic move, I think it's AD. Like AD and Russ for Katie and Kyrie mentioned. The AD to the Knicks. AD to the Warriors was interesting to me because that brings Draymond and he's clutch.

It's the one place you could send Draymond where he's probably cool with it. But then AD's clutch, right? So are the clutch people going to allow for this? Rob, Draymond, Kaminga, and Moody. And maybe a first for AD. The Lakers at least have a meeting about that, right? They talk about it.

But it probably makes them worse, doesn't it? It might make both teams worse. It might, yeah. You're really driving everyone into the dirt with the fake trades now. They're fake trades that both teams worse. It might, yeah. You're really driving everyone into the dirt with the fake trades now. They're fake trades that make everyone worse. It's my new trade machine I've created. I was working on it over my hiatus.

Any other big storylines that jumped out while I was gone before we go? Because it was pretty dead. I think if we put the Rick Buecher group chat thing to rest, that was pretty much it. It's been very quiet. Yeah. All right.

You can hear Waz and you can hear Mahoney on the Ringer NBA show. Mahoney, you're due to make a Rewatchables appearance at some point. Give me on there. We're going to have to talk about that. Waz, I have a text coming for you

about a movie we might be doing soon. But I'm excited for this season to start getting going again. Plus NFL coming too. Good to see you guys. Thanks for being my jury today. Yes, sir. Thanks, Bill. What does possible sound like for your business?

It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit, more cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days, and the ability to reach further with access to over 1400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. My friend Juliet Libman is here. We've been working together almost 11 years. I cannot think of another TV show

that have led to more dramatic text between us than the rehearsal on HBO, which we're going to cover now. We'll probably simultaneously run this on the Prestige TV podcast as well. So Nathan Field, our guy, he was in Nathan for you. I think I was the first person

to have him on a podcast. I've been all in. I have the most Nathan stock probably of any media member. I was in early. Great show. He leaves, comes back. We have a picture of him

in the Grantland office with all of us in one of those podcasts. Just great times. Comes back with this HBO show that is one of the most insane shows I've ever watched in my life. I'm not even positive I enjoyed it. It was so uncomfortable and it took me to places that I wasn't ready to go. And it just unsettled me in a way that I can't remember from a television experience.

It was very polarizing online. Some people hated it. Some people loved it. Some people thought it was genius. It was basically everything he's probably wanted with his career. He's, I think, 39 years old. This was his apex mountain, Juliet.

Oh my goodness. I was thinking about why I enjoyed it so much because I feel similarly to you. Like, did I love it? Did I find it troubling? I mostly loved it. And I kind of understand the criticism. But mostly, it is so full of ideas. And it really highlighted to me suss out a lot of different things and you know i cover a lot of reality tv so like if you want to view it through the reality tv lens you absolutely can if you want to view it through like the morality of acting you absolutely can if you want to view it through therapy you can like there's just so much there and so many prisms through which you could you could hold up and so it just makes it makes me have to text you at all hours of the day about it. Well, and then there was the Jewish piece too, which is when it pushed it over the top too.

The fifth episode, one of the great Jewish moment episodes probably in the history of television. You mentioned all those themes that hits. Also, parenting, is it a good thing? Right. What can you learn from it? What are the good things and bad things about being a parent and sharing it with another human being? So I watched the first episode again last night. And it's really interesting to watch all six in a row, week after week,

and then just go back in the pilot. Because the pilot has a lot of the lessons, right? In the pilot episode, which I thought was one of the most amazing episodes of TV I'd seen in a while. Me too. You don't know what's happening. You're just like, what's going on? This guy who they find who wants to apologize to somebody in his trivia crew.

And Nathan goes to meet him and they have this interaction with these jokes that seem like a little too clever at the time, but you don't realize it when you're watching it. And then he pulls back and we find out that he already had been and had people in this guy's place and they created a replica of the apartment and he had rehearsed over and over again

his interactions with this guy before he met the guy. And within six minutes, you're kind of like in disbelief. What is happening? What is the show? Yeah, you're like, I watched, I made my wife watch it because she was out on the show and we watched last night.

She said, I don't want to watch it. It seems too complicated. And then we watched it and within six minutes, it was fun to relive it through her because she was just like, my wife and my daughter together, they were like,

what's going on? Like they were just so confused and delighted by how fucking crazy this show is and then it just keeps going yeah there's something about the replicas in episode one both um core's apartment and the bar that are so mind-blowing the commitment to the bit is so huge that it it's like nothing else that's been on tv for a while and then you remember you're watching hbo and you're just like how did he get this paid for? Like, what was the pitch of the show? And there's something very specific about the bar, which then he moves cross country. He renames like the through line

of the bar replica is so poignant. I don't even know why, but there's something about it from episode one to the last time you see it, episode five, that's just like so amazing and mind blowing. And that's like. That's my favorite part of the show. I don't even know why. Well, Nathan, for you, had that a little bit too where his theory is basically, if I'm going to do this, I'm all in.

I'm all in on doing this. I'm not going to do the half-assed or the three-fourths version. You were talking about when they created the bar, there was the two chairs where the cushion was a little ripped and they basically recreate the chairs and he's pointing out. But you can see on Nathan, he stays in character 99% of the time. He's so delighted showing this guy the bar.

You can see he's just like, I can't believe we recreated this crazy random bar. And what was it in Brooklyn? Yeah, I think it was in Bushwick. I looked it up, obviously. I'm sure that I'm sure that bars had a real increase in attendance. Oh, my God. Trivia night.

You know, Nathan for you was really trendy when we were at Grantland. Like, as you said, I came into the office and I don't like to participate in trends if I'm not there first. So I was like, Nathan for you.

Cool, cool, cool, whatever. And then I saw him open at a vampire weekend show where he was like pretending to propose to someone on stage and it was and then like she said no and it was like so awkward and so like i i don't i like nathan fielder and like i when he came into the office i thought it was really cool obviously but now i have like a whole new opinion of like the nathan fielder experience in the last 10 years. Because this show is, as you said, is apex mountain. And I just think he's a genius. Regardless of whatever side you fall,

the way that he's engaging with ideas, no one else is doing this. And there's so much TV, hence the PressHTV podcast. And this is a singular experience, which is why I found it so exhilarating. Because there's just nothing to compare it to. Yeah, I watched it. I had five weeks off and I watched The Sopranos. I rewatched the entire Sopranos again. Great show.

And I was talking to somebody about it. I was just like, show's just amazing. The themes they hit, some of the places they go. I just don't feel like TV does that anymore. People got excited about The Bear this summer a little bit. And I think it's almost like in the NBA or NFL draft where you get excited about QBs, but you know they're not really the same as when there's the class with the awesome QBs or the NBA class that has loaded with superstars. And I think we talk ourselves into greatness of shows

that doesn't 100% exist. There's been Sopranos, Game of Thrones, The Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men. Are probably the five. And Mad Men is even like, I don't know if that's aged in the same way as some of those. I do feel like Sopranos, Game of Thrones, and The Wire are just repeatedly rewatchable for the next 50 years

because of the themes they hit. This Nathan show, I'm not putting on that level, but it's engaging with ideas that I'm just not used to seeing anymore on television. People are too afraid to do this now. Totally. And Nathan is accused of being mean. I think that's the biggest criticism of the show is that he's putting regular people's well-being and happiness at risk by doing. I know. I know. And it's like at least there's some level of, you know, consent going on. Like, I think episode five, when you find out that Angela, when Nathan isn't around, isn't like, you know, living this homesteader life is kind of a relief for kind of like, OK, good.

Like, she's actually getting something out of that. She's living in a nice place. She, you know, assumed that all of her expenses paid for. I hope she got paid. She's on TV. So she probably did. But like, you know, I think that critique is more a reflection of like where criticism is than the show, actually. And so I was really interested that online a lot of the conversation about the finale is like Nathan acknowledging his critics because I don't really think he cares about. I mean, you know. Well, but he also he filmed this stuff ahead of time, so he didn't even know what the criticism was going to be. But he's probably anticipating it, is my guess.

Yeah. But so the crux of the final episode is this one kid where he can't tell the difference between Nathan pretending to be his father and actually just being Nathan. One of the many child actors. Yeah. Yeah. Now thinks Nathan's his actual dad. Right. And I don't know, like as a father, Bill, like what was your take on Remy and that whole thing? Because I feel like if you want to see Nathan as a villain in this, like that's what you point to. So you got to go backwards. So in that first episode, he sets up the premise for the show. And that's why when you go back and you watch it a second time, all of it's there for what he's going to try. Because it veers in the second when you're watching it in real time. The week to weakness, I think, really helped the show versus the binge

watch factor of it. So I watched the second show and I think we were texting about it by them. I was like, I didn't like the second show as much. First show is amazing. Second show, eh. Then Angela comes back for the third. We don't realize yet that the last five episodes are all Angela related and him trying to teach Angela what it would be like to be a mother and him trying to find the father figure. But what we don't realize is he's going to become the father figure. And now he's in this relationship. This show is so crazy that in that last episode, when that kid gets confused whether Nathan's his dad or not, I thought he was going to start dating the kid's mom.

I really did. I was like, he's going to have sex with this lady and they're going to start dating the kid's mom. I really did. I was like, he's going to have sex with this lady and they're going to start dating because that's where this is going to end and we're not going to know what's real and not real. But that's the point. It's like everything was on the table by episode six. I literally would have believed any outcome. Yeah, it was so gonzo. It's funny. I didn't even think about what was going to happen next because I knew I couldn't predict it. Am I a bad person that I thought that? No, I don't think so. I mean, the funny thing about the show is like it,

it's only trying to help you rehearse emotions really. And like anticipating other people's emotions, there's no like actual action. And so I don't think I thought there was going to be sex because like, there's no, like there's no actual intimacy between anyone. It's just like pretending of what intimacy could be like. And so both physical and emotional.

And so that didn't even seem likely to me. But I just every episode didn't see where it was going. I think I also don't like to see because I'm just like, please entertain me. I don't need to guess. But I didn't anticipate it at all. And so I think like every time there was a reveal, I was like, whoa, I didn't expect it. But I like the small reveals too. Like my favorite moment of the show is when you see the,

um, watermelons and the cucumbers just sticking out of the ground. My favorite moment of the show is when he was rehearsing in the last episode. He's rehearsed. He's basically rehearsing all the interactions he already had with the kid actor who now is taking all these different forms to figure out what he did wrong to lead this kid down the road where the kid thought Nathan was actually his dad. And so he has like a doll. There's like a doll one. There's different younger kids.

But then he has an adult playing the younger kid and that part that's when it gets super weird but then they have this moment where it breaks out and the adult actor is just smoking a cigarette outside and it's like the perfect edit it's like one second they don't linger on it but you just kind of see

him and you're like what is happening this is the most fucked up show I've ever watched in my life I also loved that moment also because you couldn't see the front of the guy's head so it's just like totally random actor guy i i have to say my biggest complaint at the beginning of the show when i didn't understand what was going on was i just felt like nathan was giving actors a lot of credit like every actor could learn all these different emotions because in episode one i was just like how do these actors know what feelings to be tapping into? Like, they don't know enough, like researching them. I just like, didn't believe that piece of it. But over the course of the show,

I feel like Nathan as a comedian is really, really lampooning what actors can do and like what the purpose of them is. And, how about the last episode? They have the birthday party and none of the extras are allowed to speak. So it's just a silent birthday. And he claims it's to save $15,000, but it definitely costs more to move the bar set across the country than the $15,000 saved on extras. So there's just like at every second of the show some kind of commentary. That's why it's overwhelming,

but that's why I love it. So, if you had to guess, and we'll never know because he'll never tell us, he's almost like a magician. How much of this did he know was going to happen and how much of this

did he ad-lib on the fly? Like, because there's stuff he couldn't have figured out, right? Like, you couldn't have figured out Angela's guy that they kind of centered in on was just going to bolt at the end of the one I don't I assume he felt like well if

we can't find the right person I'll step in as the father figure but he also couldn't have guessed that Angela would want to bag the experiment that there was a maybe he could have guessed the religious piece of it because he's Jewish and she's so religious yeah but that's what I was going to say I think the religious piece of it because he's Jewish and she's so religious. Yeah, but that's what I was going to say.

I think the religious piece of it, he probably anticipated. And, you know, the very beginning, he said that he found core through a Craigslist ad. And so I think there was some there was some screening of people to be on the show. And so probably picking someone who is like a pretty zealous in their religion. That's not his was probably really perfect for this because it's just a really different way of life. And also like has some pretty extreme views. But if that guy had stuck around after episode two, then Nathan's never even the father figure. Right.

Well, but my guess is maybe they pick that guy and maybe they told him the bolt after at the end of the second episode. Like they might have been able to massage this a little more than we realized. Yeah. I my biggest question was when he looks in the mirror, like what does he see back? Because I assume a lot of that is done in post-production or whatever, you know, because you ever it's like the way it's shot. You could easily do effects. But the mirror became such a big part of the show that I was curious like how in the moment

he was responding to himself, basically. Interesting. It felt like that was scripted in. Yeah. And I, and I, in what point did he decide like he needed to be able to look into the mirror and see it in like a plot point would be that he would see a different version of himself.

Right. Like the playing with time was also pretty interesting. The critique of this show. I mean, there's a couple of people that lost their minds. There was a New Yorker writer who, who's that Richard Brody? Brody, yeah. I don't think, I don't think anybody has hated a TV show that's actually good as much as this guy. He's losing his, even after he wrote the review, he was still killing it on Twitter.

He was having like a hissy fit about it. And the big criticism was, this is cruel to do it to these people. But I also think that was the point of why Nathan wanted to do this show. His whole thing was like, I think, who knows, but I'm guessing his working premise was, reality

TV is cruel. What would be the cruelest version of this? Because nobody comes out, like, was it good for the trivia guy that episode, Cor? Was it good for him ultimately? Was he a winner from that episode? What about the lady who he wanted to tell the secret to, who they hire an actor and the actor learns her mannerisms and makes the most annoying character possible, which turned out to be dead accurate when we see her hanging out of the trivia thing. Like, I don't feel like anybody wins in this show. No, I don't think so.

I thought it was kind of surprising that it really takes a turn towards like parents and the way that parents can damage kids. Like who was doing more damage, Nathan, by asking the kid to be a part of this and then confusing Remy about if he was his father or not or the mother for consenting to it in the beginning um and then there's definitely like you know the the build-up of parenting is like slow it's both slow and also really quick but a real pivot point in the show is when Nathan's own parents come and he feels their judgment and they're like you know they basically could be from my neighborhood where I grew up. They're like extremely familiar to me. And he basically at that point, the show kind of like really escalates quickly when he explicitly stuff himself, it kind of becomes more extreme when Nathan, the character,

uses Nathan, the real guy, to move the show forward. And so I think like that's like the parenting aspect of it clearly is like this fear that undergirds the whole thing. Well, and then it seems like he's had some issues too

with his relationships. Yeah. And I don't know if he decided to throw that into the show halfway through or that was always the point, but I like that he's pretty honest about that stuff and how that ties into it. Basically, he's not a parent yet. And there's some, what would it like to be a parent that I guess he's going through that maybe he didn't know? That's the thing. If I were him, I would never tell people what I

actually meant. Like I, my fear is there's going to be some vulture interview or something coming out where he lays out all of his intentions. I kind of don't want to know. I feel like this should be whatever you take from it. He clearly was making some sort of statement on, uh, especially child actors, how stupid the child actor thing is and how you have to four hours per actor and people getting shuttled in and out and people getting confused. When this show, I think, went to another level, I think it was the end of episode four, when he realizes he fucked things up with the 15-year-old kid and running through all these rehearsals for how bad it went. And the kid goes down that slide and comes out as a six-year-old again.

Yeah. And that was like one of those moments in Lost when Jack says to What's-Her-Face, like, we got to go back. And it was like, wait, what's going on? When that kid came out of the slide, I honestly felt the same way. And I'm watching all these by myself. I don't even have anyone to talk about it except you and a couple others. And then Nathan becomes

just like Angela after those moments. He's mad at her for not taking it seriously and bringing character when he's not around. But he's doing that. He bends it to his will. So it's just there's so much there. I love it. That episode also where he

starts the Fielder Method and you see the actor he chooses to play himself. That's the worst actor in the whole show, I think. And the worst performance in the whole show, which is definitely intentional. Nathan choosing a bad Nathan, basically. We didn't talk about how the Fielder Method... I think that was the same episode with the slide, right?

Yeah, it was. That's when the show went through. The Fielder Method, I think that was the same episode with the slide, right? Yeah, it was. That's when the show went through. The Fielder Method, I think, was like the holy shit episode of this where it just goes a whole other direction. The people coming back in, imitating whoever they were. Then we have the Jewish episode, episode five. I mean, I know America has been dying for your opinions on this. I absolutely loved it.

You're like the Roger Ebert for this episode, basically. I thought it was so funny. The Jewish tutor I loved. I love the idea of like personal Hebrew school because no one likes going to Hebrew school, but it's like a rite of passage. So injecting that into the show is so funny. And it just led to these hilarious moments when he's pouring the water on the kid to make it seem like he was in swimming lessons i was absolutely dying and then the tutor at the end of that episode is like so happy that angela is gone that she's like you know she's standing in for the audience basically like she can finally let loose and it was just so it was like both a celebratory moment because it's supposed to be hanukkah but like the the inflatables on the lawn are falling apart. And it's just like all the emotions in one.

And I absolutely loved it. And it was Nathan definitely does not believe in religion. That's very clear. Well, you had they also struck oil with core in the first episode. Core was just absolutely astonishing. When he starts getting into the trivia, Nathan's like, oh no, I realized there was a flaw in my plan.

Cor would care about the trivia so much he might not be able to do the apology and then has to game it and plant the facts in his brain. Cor was special. And then Angela. That's like, the show doesn't work unless Angela is... I don't even know what the word is.

Eccentric? She's eccentric, but she's also arrogant, which I really liked about her and I think made it work. She really believes in her own ideas. She is really willful in how she's doing things. She doesn't back down. And she just assumes the upper hand. Nathan apologizes and she accepts it.

She's like, I'm done here. And she leaves. She's like, Christianity only. And she sticks to it. Because she's so stubborn, it actually works. She's the biggest reason why I think people are asking what's real and what's not. Because it's so hard to believe that she could be a real person. There's all her quirks the best part about angela is she led to fake angela delivering one of the great acting performances of the 21st century as fake angela's berating nathan

and it's one of those scenes where you start thinking like, is this actress? Is this like the next Meryl Streep? What's going on here? She was like so good. And then she just shuts it off a minute. She's like, how was that? Was that, did I die that? And you're like, oh my God, I don't even know who this person is.

And they're amazing. It was, I was so glad when she was back in episode six, I was like, great, we're not done with her yet. And there's like so many, so much continuity. I think at the end of of episode four two of the paramedics are actors from the Fielder method and like the the thing that was so funny

about Fielder method too is like there actually was purpose to it because then he found these actors to be on the show and so everything there's just like a doubling at all points of the show like nothing is ever just one meaning or one purpose. And that's why it's, like,

so riveting to me. Yeah, and I didn't even 100% understand it the first time I watched the first episode with the end when he goes through the rehearsal

at the end telling Kor, like, hey, I planted those... The trivia thing wasn't real. I gave you all those answers. And the fake Kor gets mad at him and berates him. And then it comes back to Nathan and he comes up with a different thing. And then core reacts to that. And for some reason, it made so much more sense the second time. All of it is about rehearsing

what the right thing to do is. But the real answer is you're never going to know. That's the whole point of life is that everything can lead to something else. There's no way to control it. Right. And also from the very beginning, just in terms of the show and what to think about Nathan the character, from the very beginning, Nathan the character isn't as brave or as bold as all of the people

he's put in the rehearsal, both the actors and the regular people. He can't go through with it. And I think that's such an important part of the show and sort of, you don't only need to look to the last episode for Nathan to see his own flaws. He's showing go through with it. And I think that's such an important part of the show. And sort of, you don't only need to look to the last episode for Nathan to see his own flaws. He's showing it to you in episode one, his own flaws and the flaws of the show. And I don't know, Bill. It's just

brilliant. Am I obsessed with Nathan Fielder? Yes, I am. You throwing your hat in the ring? No, I just, no. I think he seems emotional and available. That's not like a hat throw. I'm just so overwhelmed by it. It's just all so good if you started dating nathan fielder that would be i that would break my brain that or katie going to the celtics would be the two things that could break my brain in 2022 let's get let's let's go for both

you can be juliet litman felder like yeah it's a great Jewish couple just to be clear that's not what I was doing I just was like god this show is so good you know well my last question it got renewed on Friday yeah I was delighted by me too I don't even understand the rehearsal season two a how do you top this b how do you do a show like this now, if at least some people know what it is? And then I almost kind of wish there wasn't a season two, but then I'm also glad there is, which ties to my feelings in the show. I didn't 100% enjoy it, even though I was in complete awe of it. And it was one of the most unforgettable shows I've seen. But it made me really uncomfortable. And it's an experience I almost dread going through again.

But I can't wait to do it. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. Thank you. So a couple of things about being renewed for season two. A, I think that means he won't speak that much about how everything worked for season one. Because he'll want to maintain the mystery and everything. So that's a great thing. Number two, he clearly started filming this before covid i think the start

stuff of core was in 2019 so it's very possible he started filming season two already i don't know for sure um also just on like a business standpoint i was worried that with the changes happening in hbo and hbo max that maybe it wouldn't come back. So I wonder if it was already renewed and in production before the changes and so they're just like, okay, we'll keep going with it. But as a result, I think that means that many of the participants won't be able to see season one, so they won't

know what they're doing. But moreover, does Angela watch HBO? Does Angela believe in streaming TV? People like that probably just, they're always available. Did she have the internet yeah you're right it's probably an endless array yeah this is one of the big successes for

HBO Max I think of the first couple years and it's a show that I think if it had been on Sunday night on HBO I think it would have been even bigger I do think there's enough word of mouth now you can we can kind of tell we've been in this business for a while and we can all kind of tell. We've been in this business for a while and we can all kind of tell

when something's becoming a thing, at least in certain circles. And it seems like this show in certain circles became a holy shit, are you watching this show? Which we just, going back to the initial point, we haven't had a lot of. Yeah, and I think when a show is so good that you, at least for me,

when I'm like, just watch it, I don't even want to say anything. That's the best kind of word of mouth there is. If you can't sum it up in a sentence, it has to be different than everything else you're used to. Well, and then the best part of this is some people I know would absolutely hate the show. My mom would hate the show and be furious that I made her even watch one episode of it. I have 10 people in my life who would just hate the show's guts. And then I have other people in my life like you that I'd be like, oh, I can talk to this person because they're going to get why this was what it was.

I give the show an A triple plus. I'm just in awe of it. And I give it an A+++, while also saying I don't even know if I enjoyed it. A+++, for ideas, unclear for experience. But for me, it's positive all around.

I watched every episode twice. I was like, I really just need to get this and have it sink in. How are we feeling about The Bachelor? It says Bachelor-led season before we go. Woof! This season has been unprecedented,

I think, in a bad way, but I'm glad they tried it out. They did two Bachelorettes this year for the people listening home. Two Bachelorettes. They're on a cruise for a lot of the time. I think this has set the record for the contestants

rejecting the leads. Not a great dynamic. Not what you're looking for. Probably the most tears per minute on screen as well for the Bachelorettes themselves. Jesse Palmer, he's really shining. So that's great for the future. But it's a pretty tough season. I mean, it's like interesting for me

because there's so much more to talk about. But like, there's no narrative. Like, I can't even tell you like what the narrative of the season is other than the men rejecting the women. Not what you want in The Bachelorette. Well, one of The Bachelorettes just seems pretty annoying to hang out with for long

periods of time. Then the other one, The Nodder, who just does this constant nodding thing. I think the longer I think guys spend with both of them I think they're kind of like

hmm I don't know yeah it's not great not enough guys is another problem the guys weren't great either yeah

structurally flawed it's you know they had to try it I'm glad they did but you know let's turn to signs of decay

in the Bachelor in the Bachelor franchise you know I actually been thinking a lot about this I'm really glad you asked the problem with the show, well, you didn't actually ask, just to be clear,

but thanks for giving me the pedestal. It just can't end in engagement. It's just like we got to get rid of the engagement. There needs to be lower stakes that are a little bit more fun that people would be willing to go through with. Because at this point, we all know how this song goes.

And so no one thinks it's actually going to work out. So don't even make them do it. Find a different way to get neil lane involved i don't know but i think that would save the show that's the one big change i'm okay with that i don't none of us feel like these people are actually getting married anyway i mean it's happened what five times and if if they're willing yeah there's still there's seven marriages across over 40 seasons of The Bachelor versus The Bachelorette. If there is more of an incentive to do crazy things, and I think the engagements are disincentive at this point, that's better for the show. So they need to lighten it up and find their ways to have fun again. Well, my son is 14, probably 10 years away from being on this show. Okay.

And I don't think it'll exist at that point. Yeah. And besides, he's going to be married to Sidney Sweeney. He's already declared. I don't know if she knows yet. I was like, she's like 12 years older than he is. Like, that's fine. She can wait.

I love his confidence. That's great. That's what he'll need to get Sidney Sweeney. So that's good. Yeah. I don't know if it'll exist. Certainly not in this form in 10 years,. That's great. That's what he'll need to get Sidney Sweeney. So that's good. Yeah, I don't know if it'll exist. Certainly not in this form in 10 years, but that's okay. You know, it has to evolve.

So you think like Survivor, The Challenge, Big Brother, and The Bachelorette slash Bachelor. Kind of the Mount Rushmore of franchises that have been around since 2000. I wonder which one goes first. I actually think my money would be on The Bachelor franchise. I agree.

And I would say Big Brother will go on the longest because that's just like people in a house. Endlessly refillable. And people are just like, yeah, sure, I'll do that. Why not?

You would think Survivor, but they do kind of feel like they reset it a lot where it's like, new gimmick this year. And they're very self-aware of the shelf life of that show. Yeah.

And the challenge, I don't even know what to make. I mean, the challenge they've diluted now with, I'm not even watching the CBS one. I'm not either. But if you are, check out Tyson's podcast on the Ringer Reality TV podcast.

I heard it's fantastic. It is good. It's just too much challenge content. If like the NBA was playing for 13 months a year, I wouldn't be able to keep up yeah i mean i think this gets back to your question about season two of the rehearsal when people know exactly what to expect and they've been watching reality tv for 20 years you have to keep finding ways to surprise them and and do things differently and so that's why like love is blind is was like such a revelation at first and too hot to handle um but those shows have pretty short shelf lives.

I don't think you can go back to that well for 10 years because people will just know too much. So that's the problem with these long-running franchises that aren't necessarily competition is all the beats are the same. And so there's not the same opportunity to exploit them. And that's a problem. I agree.

Juliette Lippman Fielder, thanks for coming on. It was great to see you. And you can listen to Juliette on Bachelor Party and I'm Bachelor Party and Ringer Dish. Yeah, and Food News. And Food News, Ringer Food, which our guy Jacoby. Yeah. Hey, you're doing it all. All right. Good to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Dylan Berkey. Thanks to Big Waz and Rob Mahoney as well. Check out our youtube.com slash Bill Simmons, our YouTube page. We put a couple things up there over the break,

including a video that you may have never seen about the 1984 NBA draft, the little book of basketball special video. So if you missed that, go check it out. We put a lot of clips there from the podcast as well. Don't forget about 250th movie that we've ever done on the rewatchables coming Monday night, Off the Pike with Brian Barrett, New Boston Podcast, and The Ring of Earth covering House of the Dragon. So you'll be ready to impress your friends at cocktail parties or online or in chat rooms or whatever you're doing, however you're disseminating that show.

I will be back on this feed on Tuesday. Looking forward to it. See you. I don't have a few years with him on the wayside on the front side I don't have a few years