The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Rare NBA Sea-Change Season, the Haliburton What-Ifs, and a 2020 Redraft With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss what the NBA teams may look like next year (1:43). Then, they react to OKC-Timberwolves Game 3 and discuss Bill’s theory that something has shifted with the NBA this season (30:38). Finally, they discuss Tyrese Haliburton, have a quick 2020 redraft, and predict one wild move this summer (01:05:20). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! michelobultra.com/courtside ENJOY RESPONSIBLY ©️ 2025 ANHEUSER-BUSCH, MICHELOB ULTRA®️ LIGHT BEER, ST. LOUIS, MO. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available in this and then episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and President Select States, game prom called Win 800 Gamble or visit rg-help.com. Coming up a little Memorial Day weekend basketball talk with Ryan Rousselo next. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where we have a new rewatch. It's coming for you on Monday night. It is the last episode of Big

Ass 70s Month. We did Heaven Can Wait. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. So that's coming Monday night and you can watch on the Ringer movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch all the videos of clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel or you can watch it as a video podcast on Spotify. Ryan Marcillo is next. We tape this Sunday morning before the Pacers next game three. So it's coming up next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we were recording this.

It is a little past 11 in the morning, Pacific time on Sunday. We are not doing this after Pacers-Nix because it's Memorial Day weekend and sometimes real life takes over the podcast schedule. I don't know what to say, but Ryan Rosillo is here. We have a bunch of fun stuff we're going to talk to. We're going to be able to talk about these playoffs, even not knowing what's happening in game three tonight, which started out pretty shocking with the Pacers taking a two lead.

I'm going to start here, Rosillo. Indiana and OKC, if that ends up being our finals. What's interesting, big picture is you could argue each of those teams is the team you would want to be for the next four to five years in their conferences. And I think the OKC is a pretty easy argument for the West, unless you want to throw San Antonio at me. But for Indiana, the fact that we are now, I don't know, two plus games in the conference finals,

the thought of them being the team you would most envy in the East was like 50 to one odds, I would say, in January. How did we get here? Uh, look, the thunder thing, you're right. Um, whether it's roster or the flexibility of what all these future draft picks are going to be, um, and you know, look in the future draft pick stuff, sometimes it's like, Oh, that didn't work out. And then there's like a pick in 20, 29.

And you go, Oh my God, like, I can't believe that ended up happening. And, uh, you're going to have to sell me a little harder on the Pacers. Like this is a really nice run. It's awesome. Uh, they're up two oh, there's tons of great things I want to say about the Pacers, but to map out the next five years of them being the franchise you want to be, you got to sell me on that. Well, so let's go, let's go this way first. Who would you rather be in the East? Give me a team.

Because I felt the same way as you, where I was like, oh, there's gotta be somebody, and then I'm going through the conference, and I'm like, Detroit? Orlando? Boston? No idea what their payroll's gonna look like in two years. Philly, I gotta deal with Embiid.

And Paul George. New York? This might be where we peak with them right now with these five guys that the, uh, the first two games that they played, the plus minus was an abomination. And I don't know how that plays out over the next two years. Um, Milwaukee, I think you throw in there as a, like, do you want to pick them? Probably not.

No, I don't. Who else is there? I thought about it for all of those reasons, but this almost feels like can I take the field? Which isn't fair and it isn't the right answer, but as great as this Pacers thing is, and we were texting this morning about it, I brought it up in the pod this week,

like this is really great, but it's also usually not the way it works. And as much fun as it is in the depth and Halliburton kind of reminding people like what he can be. Um, it's just hard for me to be like, yeah, I want to be the team that doesn't have a top 10 player in the NBA. Like, give me that for the next five years. I guess my question is he did, did he move into at least the top 15? He did make all in BA.

Now there were some guys that were injured, so that's not necessarily a great litmus test, but he's somewhere in the top 20 to 22, I would say. And then the fact that he's found a way to raise his game in the playoffs, I think that counts for something. The fact that he's so unique with where basketball has gone, where we just don't have guards who run the show like this in the same way anymore. We have these guards that are trying to get their stuff off and, you know, you

got to involve the offense around them and what they do, he just kind of is additive and makes everybody better. Um, and I don't think like you, you, I know you've studied at least the top five in this draft and everybody likes Harper. And it seems like the Spurs are going to take Harper. It seems all the indications are like that, that pick is really not available and they're going to take Harper and they feel good about it. And that's where we're going. Um, but I don't think he's an inclusive player like Hal Burnley.

It's he's more of a, the way guards have gone this decade, where they score, they can also bring the ball up, they can set people up, they can run a fast break, but they're not constantly just thinking about involving everybody else. Harper definitely wants to get his points. So, if we were doing a, I'm not really ready for it, but if we were doing a draft conversation,

like the craziest thing about some of these picks is you go, all right, even if you love Harper and you should draft based on talent, you shouldn't be drafting on fit, especially when you don't really know who you are. But you're like, how do you play Harper off of Darren Fox? Especially if you think like San Antonio with a healthy Wemba Nyama is going to be a real player in the West. And then, you know, you think about Ace Bailey standing around, watching those other guys, and look, he got used to standing around because he watched Harper and played with him. So that in itself is like a really interesting conversation

because they're not used to having these teams pick that at least with Philly, we know they're established and what they wanna be. And then San Antonio, the assumption that we kind of know like who their three guys are. But, um, yeah, you know, it is, it's one of those questions where, as soon as you sent it to me, I just, I was like, what is he doing? What are you talking about? But when you run through all the known versus unknown, if the

pace is your answer, you're like, okay, that's the known, but there's also the Turner part of it that you're always bringing up in that this group does not pay the luxury tax and Turner, you know, is going to be whatever you think of him. He's especially in this free agent class, despite the irony of feeling like he'd been available in the trademark for years, like he provides something to them and you know, 20 million a year in this new NBA world is probably not going to cut it.

But that's like a minor issue compared to some of the other, obviously, like when you look at the Celtics with all this stuff. I guess I still would rather. I mean, I also- Would you rather be the Celtics? That sounds like you would. I think I would. I think I would, but that's going to get weird quick.

I mean, the Drew part of it. We know Tatum, Tatum's gone next year. Drew is going to be 35, 36. I just don't, Tatum's not playing next year. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, Jaylen's going to be at 60 million.

This Indiana, the way they set it up, Tyrese and Siakam next year are 91 million combined, which is pretty great. Normally if you're paying two guys who are in the top, Siakam's always one of the best nine to 10 forwards. He's never one of the best five or six, but he's always in like the top 50 for players. So you put those two together. It's probably even higher than that. I know I had a huge Siakam game one thing where I'm like, he has to initiate more

and then he comes out and almost drops 40 on him in game two. So he was terrific, but he was great. Yeah. I feel like he's what in the top 30? Well, usually the market, wherever you want to put them, if you're paying those two guys normally with the way the current NBA structure is that's 115 to 120 million combined for those two spots. So they're getting a discount on those two spots. Then they smartly signed Nemhard to 18, 19, 21, uh, as an extension, which

is right around where his value is. I don't know where the cap's gone. Niece Smith's at 11 and 11 the next two years. McConnell's at 10 and 11. Toppin's at 14 next year, Matheran's at nine and they still have Walker at 6.6 and Shepherd at 2.7. They have all their own picks except for 26 and have the ability to, I don't know, pet either package dudes together.

They have the ability to dump somebody, you know, like if they wanted to trade Matheran this summer, they'll be able to at nine. They wanted to either upgrade him or try to get a vet or do whatever. So I think the flexibility is what's appealing, but you made the key point. They don't pay the luxury tax. I think the owner's like 90 and in general, they've just, um, you know, they're like a few of these teams just don't do it. Okay.

See is another one that we're going to find out how much they want to keep this team together when these guys start getting expensive, but at least with Indianapolis, I know what I have with my top two for the next three years. I can add around it. I might have guys coming in who want to play with this nucleus and I'm in a much weaker conference, which I think is the other appealing thing. I'm in like the JV conference. Well, that's another part of this exercise.

You go through it and you're like, man, Flagg ends up in the West. You know, if Harper's a stud, he ends up in the West. Wemba Nyama just a couple of years ago. Right. Maybe Yanis. And then Atlanta's like, we'll take Risa Shea, who I actually do like and thought

he showed a lot of promise as a rookie here. But when you were thinking about the lottery going like, hey, can the East at least get flag? Just try it. Like if he's going to be this special and you know, we've had this happen before where it felt like there was this massive migration, which really mirrors history bill, uh, where you just kept pushing things further, further out West. But, uh, look, I'm going to say something that's going to seem really stupid when

they're up two Oh, and they had just eliminated the calves, but I'd rather be the calves because they're three guys are better than the Pacers three guys. And I know it didn't happen in the playoffs. I could point to the injury stuff, but you know, there was some games in there too, or it's like, what's wrong with you guys? I think Orlando is in this conversation because I think Palo is going to be better than anybody on the Pacers. Um, I looked at them as well.

The problem is they're already paying their top two. They're getting no advantage out of their young guys anymore. They've already paid the top two plus sucks. So they're kind of all in with the team they have and it's hard to move around the margins for them. But there's definitely a case for them. Yeah, but this feels like one of those exercises where day of, like any other answer seems,

like I just named the team they got rid of in five games. I mean, that seems on its surface like a really stupid way to look at it. I don't feel good about anyone in the East. That was why I thought this was so interesting to talk about. It seems so improbable to me that Indiana would be the team you would land on, but it probably is the most stable

with the most flexibility of all of these teams. Even Orlando, we talked about like, I don't know how you make that team better. Your nucleus is what it is unless you either trade Frans or Paolo and they're not trading Paolo, but that's going to be kind of their team. And the thing that they need is for black to hit. Right. Well, it sucks being healthy. And honestly, like at some point you're going,

should I give this guy an MVP vote? Because it's like, they're just not going to be able to play offense now anymore. And I think they got into some, look, I don't think they were the best offensive team. This has been two years of this, but they, I think, got into some really bad habits offensively here with this whole thing. I'm more open to it than when you first suggested. I think got into some really bad habits offensively here with this whole thing. I'm more open to it than when you first suggested it. I think another thing in the pacer's favor, if you were going to go ahead and pick them. And it just still feels like if you're picking the pacer, you're just kind of going like, all right, I guess I'll pick the pacer. It's a recency by a six, but they did make conference finals two years in a row. That's not nothing. That's exactly it. Is that this is now year two. This is in Atlanta getting to the Eastern Conference finals

This isn't Dame and that Portland team, you know Whereas Dallas when they got there with Luca and 22 you were like, is this real and then it's you know They're in the finals two years later and here the Pacers back-to-back years Just you know getting through the East in a way where you were like, I don't know that I've ever thought about you this way during the regular season. Like if they were really this good, why were they not up there competing for 60 wins with some of these other teams?

So- The counter to that was the last two thirds of this season they were on that pace. They started out bad for a bunch of reasons, but last two thirds of the season, that were on that pace. They started out bad for a bunch of reasons. But last two thirds of the season, that's why we kept talking about them. We're like, this is, if you go by last 50 games, last 55, whatever it was,

like they're playing at the same level as all these other teams. And the odds, I remember we were talking, they were 28 to one to win the East. Now odds didn't really reflect what the last 50 games of the season were, which kind of happened last year with, uh, with Dallas too. I think Cleveland had on my list.

Boston's a really interesting one because first of all, it depends on what they're going to be able to do this summer. And I think they have to get under that second apron because of their Peter tax and all the money it saves. It just sets them up for the two years after that. But what they have to give up to be able to do that. And then when do we get Tatum? You know, I did, and I've heard a variety of things about that, especially like how fast he got the surgery and there's stuff going around that he might be able to come back in February, March, because he got the surgery so fast.

But who knows that Achilles things seems like it's. the surgery so fast, but who knows? That Achilles thing seems like it could go as long as a year and a half. And if you're following the Durant model, who's the most successful example of coming back, Durant was a year and a half. So if you're just doing that and you're like, look, next year's a wipeout. They wipe out next year, get under the apron, and then they just try to reset around Tatum and Brown and, uh, Derek White. And, you know, they then they're still in good shape with this conversation too.

I think your instincts on Cleveland, cause there's some fixes for them, right? And you could talk yourself into Garland. Um, he was hurt. He was such a huge part of what they did. Indiana caught them by surprise, bad style for them. Uh, they lost one of the flukiest games in the history of the playoffs, except for the other two fluky games that Indiana would, you know, they, you could talk yourself into, wow, that was stupid. Let's not overreact, which I think should be the answer for them. Um, but at the same time, I still feel like they're going to make a move this summer. Don't you? I don't feel like Cleveland runs it back.

I don't always, I always feel like everybody just runs it back. Um, really? Man, I feel like everybody gets, I feel like everybody always makes a move when the playoffs don't. Yeah do? Yeah, even the Celtics. Think about the last couple years. Like they made a move after every year starting 22, 23, 20. They always did something. They weren't really doing anything last year

because they won. They weren't giving up anything though. They gave up a first round pick and the Derek White deal. They gave up Brogdon and Robert Williams in the Drew deal. They gave up Marcus Smart. Smart was a big trade. That was a pretty polarizing trade at the time.

People were surprised. Now it seems like a no-brainer. Yeah, I think fans in the media were like, I think that Marcus Smart stuff was pretty predictable, even though the fans and the media was like, I can't believe they'd be getting rid of this guy. I was thinking Jared Allen for Cleveland would be the one that wouldn't shock me. That's fine, but Jared Allen still is a better player than any of the guys that we've named that Boston has shipped out here. Then if you start taking it to the Garland level,

that's a whole different thing. If you're if you're getting Drew Holliday for the package to Celtics, that's a no-brainer. The only thing with Perzingis was talent-wise and how it allowed them to be different made a lot of sense, but you knew that for him to opt in to do the trade and then to give him the extension, you're like, that dude gets hurt a lot and he's missed 65 games with the Celtics. Do they win last year without him? Probably. I know he's had some nice moments. Then of course you have the end of this year where, you know, watching this Pacers-Nicks thing, you're just going like, Perzingis killed. I mean, there's a bunch of things went wrong for the Celtics and I don't want to recap that series again with you, but you're just like having, you know, here's the Pacers trying

to survive with Turner and then Tony Bradley's playing now because Thomas Bryant is just not a solution. And then they had the hand thing and that's like, man, Tony Bradley's out there running around for a few minutes and Europe, you're up in this series. Um, a Knicks team that just destroyed Boston around the paint and just was the more physical and just the bigger basketball team throughout all this. It feels like an answer. Like I'm not, I'm not sitting here saying like you're crazy because the more

you think about it, the less crazy it is. I would push back on like, if you go from January 1st to February 1st, the Pacers are playing at the same level as other top teams. Net rating wise, it isn't like those other teams were, were just far superior statistical profile teams than what the Pacers were. But it does feel like the answer. I don't know if I grew far superior, because they were in the top five or six

for the last 50 plus games. I don't know, I mean, I've got it up in front of me now. OKC was plus 13. OKC, Boston, Cleveland were above everybody. Cleveland was plus eight, Clippers are plus seven. Indiana were like plus five and a half? Yeah, very cool, plus five and a half, 34 and 14 in the last 48.

I think you undersold Marcus Smart a little. Just because how we felt about the trade versus I think what his actual value was. I think people really thought he had value when they traded him. That's why they got two first round picks for him. They got two first round picks plus poor Zingas for Marcus Smart.

So he had to have real value. And I think Jared Allen will have real value if Cleveland decides, actually our move might be. Let's do it then. I mean, do you think open market like Marcus Smart a couple of years, Jared Allen right now, it's the same demand? Porzingis, the equivalent of Porzingis and two firsts

for Jared Allen. I mean, the best thing with him is he's, I think he's 20 and 20, and then he goes up to 30, 30, 30. So it's a five year commitment to him. Um, and there's a lot of teams that need a center. I think Gafford is going to be in demand too. I think both of those guys, if Dallas tries to, uh, trade Gafford, I think he's going to have real value because we just see it every year at these

teams, like the Lakers that killed them, that they had to play, couldn't play Jackson Hayes, you know, going down the line. What like Milwaukee couldn't find any center to play because Lopez finally got old. Um, yeah, I think, let me ask it. Let me have Allen circled as a guy that I think could move this summer. Yeah. That's fine. The Allen part of it.

I guess I was thinking of some of the more aggressive stuff that we've tossed around with Cleveland, but yeah. Like darling. No, I just think the default is, and we've already done this, but the cabs going, Hey, look, we didn't have mobile the game too, you know, whatever. Like that's, that's usually, I think what teams do, like if you talk to teams, you'd be like, Hey, what went wrong? And they'll paint the picture of like the things that wouldn't be repeated the next time around the problem is you have the Mitchell

History and never getting out of the second round like I thought they'd figured some stuff out where I you know other playoff years I'd look at them after the series is over good They have like just real fundamental problems And I don't know that I feel that same way about it even if if history tells you that they're the exact same team, but again, they were just so good in the regular season. I don't know that I'd be in a hurry to be take, like it's one thing if there's a trade that presents itself where you feel like, Hey, talent wise, we're at the same level.

And maybe we're a little more malleable in the playoffs. Um, and maybe it just allows Mobley to, to turn into this whole deal. But then I think you almost would need a center again, um, instead of just running Mobley out there for like 36 minutes a night playing center, especially with how big the league is and how these teams are going back to playing a real center and a power forward. The thing that I would get back to like 20 minutes later here is to just, is this the kind of answer where a year or two years from now, you're like, holy

shit, like we even asked that question. Cause it does feel a little like that. Well, remember after you could have gone after every single year we've had for the last five or six and there was two teams we felt awesome about. And then that was kind of the peak for us feeling awesome about them. I would say Dallas last year was a good example. Yeah, but Dallas looked really sad. Yeah.

And by the way, like if anybody, everybody had been healthy, like in a full year with all those guys and like, I thought they were going to be a really good team in the West again this year if they were ready to go in the playoffs. Pick them as top five team you'd want to be last summer. You know, no question. Yeah. Luke alone makes you say that. I think Denver after the summer of 23, no question.

And then even after last summer, you still would have said it. And now this summer you're wondering what the hell they're going to do because the league has shifted and you need 70 guys realistically. They have four. So what do they do? Four and a half, depending on what they get from Porter. Um, but then going back even further, like they think about that Buck Suns finals, like, oh man, these teams are.

These teams are set. Suns finals. They're like, Oh man, these teams are, these teams are set. Suns look great. And then within two years that Suns thing completely fell apart. Um, let me ask you it this way. If you got the phone call and it was the owner of the calves, the owner of the Pacers and the owner of, well, we can't even put the Celtics in here. I don't think Orlando.

It's too much money. No. And it would, you'd be too emotional about it. You'd be like, hold on, I gotta sit down first. Uh. Uh. If you were just the hot, like, hey man, it's like, Pick a roster.

Pick a roster. Yeah, Pete Woege is like, look, he's been putting in the hours, the 20 plus years of hearing his thoughts on things, like out of this NBA owners meeting down here in Tampa, Bill Simmons is the story. They want to make this guy a GM and you've got these three teams fighting over you. Pacers, Magic, Cavs. Oh, I like how we did that. Yeah.

Right. Right. And be like, all right, Bill, like take your pick. I think I'd want Indiana. I think I'd have the, I think I've won Indiana. I think I'd have the, I think I would. I think the Cleveland piece, there's the amount of money you have to shell out for the team they have with all this apron stuff, I think is really prohibitive. Orlando.

I really would have to study Orlando because I would have those three guys would have to be my guys. I think with the Cleveland part, that's interesting is you have outs all over the place. I can trade Garland. I could trade Allen and I can trade Mobley. Like I have three guys that I know have real value that I can turn into multiple pieces if I have to. Whereas Indiana, I probably have less outs to blow stuff up. Cleveland also has no Paysers.

Who's the third best player on the Pacers? I don't know. But this is what's so crazy about this year. You're almost better off having a team like how they built it versus the traditional three guys and then a bunch of James Posey Eddie houses. It feels like those days are over. That's why OKC, and OKC is clearly the answer in the other conference. There's a moment with that draft when, uh, when it's, it's seemed like they were going to get the seventh pick where it wasn't just they were going to get the seven pick from Philly Dallas was also going to get fucked.

And they have Dallas is, I think it's like top two protected 2029 pick. So they basically lost two picks I think it's like top two protected 2029 pick. So they basically lost two picks in that trade, like two prime picks. Cause Dallas was never going to get back there. Let me see. I have this. They have a swap rights with Dallas in 28. Yeah.

And 28 think about that. That's three summers from now. So instead of like them having this juicy swap pick at 28, they're like, oh, three, and then on top of getting seventh pick in this draft, which would have been huge, they don't get the seventh pick and then Dallas gets replenished and that picks probably not going to be that important, but I'm not crying for a okay. See, because they're still pretty loaded. Somebody had the 15th and 24 picks in this draft.

They would know. I mean, they have so many players. I don't even know. I assume I was trying to figure out how they could work around the fringes because you know, they had this SGA contract now he can either make. 200, he can sign a four year, $293 million extension this summer, or he can wait and sign for five 380 next summer. Either way he's, he's going from making 38 million to like 60.

And then, uh, Chet and Jaylen Williams are both extension eligible pretty soon. I think this summer they're going to have to deal with that at some point. Um, they have heart and steam 28.5 next year, and then team option on that. After they have Dord at 17.7 team option after that. Caruso at 18, 19 and a half and 21. They have Wallace on a cheap contract Wiggins. I assume if they wanted to trade somebody to create some money, I would assume Dort would be the guy, right?

If you wanted to send money out because you know, you have to shift that money toward SGA, I think Dort would be the most expendable and I also think Dort would have a lot of, I think a lot of value out there. That's the kind of guy everybody's looking for. You can get somebody like that for under 20 million a year. Um, but other than that, I think this is going to be their roster That's the kind of guy everybody's looking for. Get somebody like that for under 20 million a year. Um, but other than that, I think this is going to be their roster. Plus they have top edge coming out, uh, coming off the knee surgery next year.

So you could, he's going to get some minutes from somebody. So I would assume, right. You agree with that? I think Dort's on that team next year. Uh, just give his minutes to Wallace. Yeah. I mean, clearly you can already see the replacement there. I don't know that Wallace, it doesn't have to be like a perfect fit because there's going

to be some stuff that Dork can do against bigger guys as much as we've all enjoyed watching Wallace grow into a player here. We didn't even mention Usman Jang. So I mean, they unleashed that beast. I would rather be expensive and worry about being expensive than be less talented and less expensive. We just haven't seen them have the appetite to spend. It would be the counter.

I wouldn't say they've been money. I think you're missing, like you're throwing a lot of like, Hey, look at what this like is going to be like. And all the second apron stuff that we've been talking about the last few weeks and all of this looming. Yeah. I mean, sure it'd be great if you were running a team that had some flexibility,

but I'd rather have the talent first and then figure out what my salary is going to look like as opposed to being cheaper going, do I have that kind of high end talent? But they know they have money coming with those three guys specifically. The SGA that's coming that's here. That's probably here this summer. I don't know what, if he's going to pick the summer next summer for that extension and

Chet and Jalen Williams are going to be max guys are close. I would assume that Jalen Brown, Jalen Brown corollary be, Max guys are close, I would assume. Yeah, I understand all that. The Jalen Brown. Right. Jalen Brown corollary on those two guys I think is going to be hitting. Although Chet's an interesting one because he's already been injured twice and plays a position that usually it's a little discounty at the center position compared to the other

positions for whatever reason. So maybe, I don't know what he lands. You could tell me any number. I would believe it. Yeah. I think he's going to be really good if he's healthy. I mean, he just has moments. I mean, he took Rudy. I mean, granted game three, they got destroyed. Like he had a flavor like Rudy was on him. And I mean, he, he worked him like he was a point guard. Yeah. And I went, holy shit. Like he has these moments where, you know,

more touches on a weaker team would probably mean his profile was even higher. But there's just in the course of the way this team works, I mean, he's rarely going to be the first guy they're looking at unless the players run for him. But that just doesn't happen very often. I'll tell you the same thing that I've said throughout all of this. Like if the Pacers end up in the finals, you know, who knows what happens there? OKC, who was a great shooting team, the kind of, I don't know if like Thunder fans understand this, but I was going through their shooting numbers and it really doesn't

have anything to do with getting there asking for game three, but they're just not shooting the ball well at all. And Denver made that gamble. Yeah. Denver made that gamble. And I know I think at some point we'll talk about the Western Conference Finals, but Denver makes that gamble and it, you know, but sure game seven goes the way it went. So it doesn't feel like they were in it. But I mean, they get them to game seven, considering what we thought about those two teams

the closest to regular season. And you keep trying to figure out like the offensive rating still pretty good for them for a bunch of different reasons. But this team is just not shot it well at all. And they've been one of the best shooting teams in the league. And it seems like, you know, Denver was the one to go, we're just going to find a way to sell out and not trust that those guys are going to hit their

shots around you. And for the most part, they were right. So, um, I don't think there is another argument though. I think there's probably some more Mignama stuff, but I feel like that is like rounding way up for anyone to pick San Antonio because of one guy versus what this roster has been from Presti. Did you see he might've grown? Did you read that story?

People are studying photos of him and they think he might be seven foot seven now, that he grew an inch. I hope he isn't seven foot seven. Seven foot seven's nuts. We talked about it as a draft. I mean, it's the first player I've ever heard of the agents trying to temper his true height the other way, you know, like. He's definitely seven five. On your OKC point, they're shooting 32.4% from three in these 14 games.

And it was something they've, you know, they've just been killing everybody and their defense is so great. But it's also a team that if they fall behind by 20, I feel like they just can't come back because they're not explosive enough, right? And part of the reason they fall behind by 20 is because their younger guys are usually not playing well, but when they fell behind by Minnesota, um, in game three, it just feels like they don't have that same kind of explosiveness unless it comes from their defense.

And their defense, what did you see in that game that you felt like Minnesota unlocked? Anything? Well, the number one rule that I always have is you can't fake desperate. And if you're any good and you're down 2-0 and you're going home, like there's just no way the other team's going to come out of the tunnel with the same desperation that you have. Okay? Yeah. Um, game two, Finch and the staff through the kitchen sink defensively at OKC. And Finch talked about like going back and watching the Denver series, because if there was one concept in the Denver series, it was like, once they got settled into that zone, they're like, look, if we can at least stop the first thing that they want to do, which is SGA coming

downhill at the top of the key. And Denver deserves credit for disrupting that part of it. Uh, and that's where the stuff we were talking about earlier with the gamble that you're willing to take going, I don't know if the guys around SGA are going to hit enough threes and they still really haven't. I mean, you're right. Like these offensive numbers, I mean, 32% in the playoffs is 13 out of the 16 playoff teams, they were six best in the NBA this season.

Granted, you know, the number doesn't feel like it's that big of a difference at 37 percent. The offensive rating is okay. The defensive rating is off the charts. It's even two points better per 100 possessions, um, than it was in the regular season when it was historically one of the best defensive ratings a team has had based on the differential from the average defensive rating. So they've cranked that part of it up even more, but back to the original

thing of like what you would ask. Minnesota clearly when they were just dazed again in that third quarter, you could see like Finches pulled Rudy. Then he's put him back in. He's had him in drop. I thought that they did less drop in game three when they went to zone. They were a fucking mess because they know they don't play it. And Finch had even said, like, we saw them do the zone stuff.

So it was like, Hey, we'll do some of that too. And then Minnesota's letting Caruso and Chet and these guys get this super easy catch that once you have that catch in the paint inside of a zone, then everybody's scrambling. And if you don't play it, then it's just, even NBA players are going to be making mistakes being like, wait, where's like, who am I helping off of? Or if I'm helping here, am I, is there somebody behind me? And so that turned out to be a disaster.

So look, it's great when Ant comes out and scores 16 points. It's great when the team starts shooting threes because so many of their guys have been abysmal on the Minnesota side of shooting threes in those first two games. But they were so much more aggressive to kind of getting back to who they are of just letting their athletes get after the ball handler. Your guy Shannon played. You know he's older than Ant?

He's 25 in July. Come on. Young Shannon? Yeah. Ant's gonna take him under his Even though he's two years older. Hey, Leonard Miller was out there being like, I'll give you the whole package, son. Well, it sounds like yesterday they were just like, we need more athletes out there. Shannon, go out there and be an athlete.

I mean, the score was so one-sided that I don't know like any of the tactical stuff necessarily, Matt. But like game two, I thought was defensive desperation. And I don't even mean that as a criticism bill. It's like, all right, we got to figure something out. Like you could see at the very beginning of this series, SJ is like, Oh shit, I get to drive again. Yeah. And it was like, all right, this is finally like, this is who I've been for six months.

I mean, does that make sense to you that we could talk tactics and all that stuff. When you're down 20 like that, you know, I don't even know. I don't know if we'll see that zone again, but it was, I thought they were trying everything in game two and it was just a mess. I agree. The biggest thing I noticed other than the zone was that Randall was getting the ball in the right spots without OKC doing the thing where it just felt like he was getting smothered every time he had the ball. And this is the part I don't understand with okay.

See, cause we saw in the Denver series too, there were games where it felt like Yoke edge was doing every single thing he wanted from all the spots on the floor, we want to do it. And then there were other games that just felt like he was in a tsunami. And if okay. See, he's not playing with that tsunami defense, at least for Randall, it's great. And I just felt like he was physical and impactful in a way that in game two, it

was like, is he going to be playable anymore? He's just had three awful quarter, three awful halves. He was really getting the first half of game one and then just disappeared after that. So they unlocked him. They were able to at least survive with Gobert out there, which in fact, that felt iffy in the first, in the, especially in the second game. Isn't Gobert crazy because it's like certain nights you just go, oh, thank

God he's out there. Yeah. He's deterring some of these drives. And then other times you just go like, and I think you've seen that from Finch throughout the playoffs. I mean, even in going back to the Lakers series, there'll be these stretches. And I think that's kind of what playoff basketball is, is that the same thing can look like a completely different product 48 hours later, but Rudy has had moments

where it's like, thank God for Rudy. And then other times you're like, all right, Finch is going to get him out of there. Then he had one possession where I saw like, he tried to go small and then he was, I think it was game two and Fincher's just so frustrated. I think he put Rudy right back in the game because he was like, all right, whatever. Like it was like such a bad defensive possession. Do you have anything, like is there any part of you

with OKC as we looked at this Final Four being like this is their title to lose? Is there any resetting for you at all with that kind of result in game three? I'm going to answer that question after the break. This episode is brought to you by Mikolob Ultra. We all have our routines during the playoffs. I'm the same man who once wore the same t-shirt every single day during the 2003 baseball playoffs. I am the same person who will tell my wife to come into the room when I need a team to

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I left game two thinking that they were not gonna lose another playoff game and that they had gone up a level defensively and they were just gonna go on one of those runs like the 91 Bulls did. There's some great young teams over the years that just as the playoffs went along, they started going up levels and just waxing everybody. I think the O-1 Lakers were like this too.

They basically only lost one game in overtime to Philly. But teams that just got better as the playoffs go along. I thought that's what we were watching with OKC. I don't get surprised very much. I know game three, it's always a zag. It's always the desperation thing. The line was only OKC minus two, which I was talking with Raheem and JJ and House and Sal about the line and just like, this might be our last chance ever to have OKC at a spread that that's low.

And finally it went up to three. And then they just sucked and they seemed young. And I was surprised by it because I figured they would know that Minnesota was going to come out like they did. I thought Ant was good in game two. If you look back at like his, the pace that he had and how he played and the decisions he made, it was really good. There was some good stuff about that the next day. Um, but I was just surprised.

They seemed young. And I, one of the things that stood out yesterday was go bear just seemed big. In some spots in a way that, um, I just didn't feel in the first two games. That felt like physically, uh, they overpowered okay. See a little bit. Ultimately, I don't think okay. See who loses again. I would still bet on, I think this is now five instead of four in Minnesota.

At least showed they had a little on reserve, but I still think okay. See is just, I know they can crank up that defense for whatever reason. When they fall behind 15, something happens to them psychologically. I don't think they're a very good come from behind team. They did it once against Memphis and that John Moran came when he got hurt. But in general, I just think they're built to have a lead and protect it. It's almost like those NFL teams that they just need to go up 10 and then their defense can finish the game.

I think that's who they are. Well, I think some of the three point shooting numbers that we talked about would be part of that. I mean, when they were having some of those bad closes against Denver and then that entire storyline shifted when Denver looked like the disastrous team late and then they win game six with having the Strother game. Now sometimes you're like, okay, so okay,

see only played 24 clutch games. Does that mean that they're less comfortable in clutch games and all this other stuff? You're like, I don't know. If they played in seven more clutch games, then they would be, I mean, it just sounds good because you have something to point to and say, hey, nobody's played in less clutch games. But over a quarter of their games were still technically clutch games. It's not like they played four of them out of 82. So I think it sounded really good. It was hard for they played four of them out of 82. So I think it sounded really good.

It was hard for me to buy it. And then guess what happened? Like the better team ended up figuring it out. The team with the MVP figures it out and you know, you expect the shooting variance at some point to kick in here. But if you're trying to figure out like, how do you get your ass kicked that bad? Maybe part of it is like Minnesota I think is good. You know, I, I'm surprised that at least one of those games in OKC wasn't a down to the wire game.

I mean, we could sit here and look at it. It felt like game two was heading that way and they just couldn't land the plane on it and they let a couple. That's what's crazy about this OKC team. They have these 10-0 runs and all of a sudden you're like, fuck, we're down 12, what happened? You know, especially with their defense at home. And it might be one of those things,

OKC might just be an awesome home playoff team. Right, and they're gonna have home court and maybe they're just gonna be one of those teams where old school, like the splits at home versus them on the road is a little different. like the splits at home versus them on the road is a little different. Um, I, uh, I think there's one way, Minnesota Hanks, and I think you would agree with this.

Edwards was, I thought really good in game two, even though his team wasn't. And I thought he was really good yesterday. And maybe that's the roadmap for them. I thought he was patient. Um, I, I really felt like he was trying to solve what they were doing. They were throwing all kinds of dudes in him and he was handling it. And I just was really impressed. I thought it was a sophisticated game. Whereas compared to last year in the Dallas series, where I thought he

kind of unraveled a little bit. The more Dallas threw at him, I thought he had trouble handling it and this in those last two games I didn't so that would be the case if you're excited about Minnesota's like hey aunt might be something might be happening here But it only happens when the other guys are making shots when you have Nazmish 17 straight threes D Vincenzo who you know, I don't always love every coach after a game being like, I liked our looks. Right. I've yet to ever hear a coach.

I don't know if I've heard a coach. I mean, it's probably been said at some point, like, you know, we didn't have a lot of good ones tonight. Didn't love our looks. Yeah. Devin Chenzo, who I would agree with Finch, like I've liked so many of his looks. He's going to be better than five to 18. And granted he hit two in game three,

but he only took three. I mean, granted some of the overall stats again from game three. I don't even know necessarily what they'll mean because you're down 20, 30 minutes after you're tying your shoes. If you're on the thunder side of things, but none of the ant stuff works unless these guys are making shots. And for the first two games, it was pretty abysmal. Minnesota was under 30%. And then I think the

other part is kind of the Randall, it's getting close to midnight conversation of if you look at who he was in those first two series and you go on any metric you want to look at and who he has been throughout his career in the playoffs. And like, it just ends up being part of the national broadcast. I know they have access to these guys. It's like, people doubted this guy. They're like, well, no shit. We doubted him in the playoffs. Give me the evidence that told me I was supposed to be psyched about it. He played great. When he got LeBron on him, seen it live and seen it on TV, he was like, let's go. Um, you know, Draymond very honest, which is sometimes like surprising. And he talked about how much Siakam had eaten him up and how much Randall,

you know, it, it taken him out in his matchup. But granted, I think Draymond in that series against Minnesota was tasked with doing a ton of stuff. So I don't look at like, I don't look at Draymond's defensive run to the playoffs against Houston and Minnesota. And I'm not sitting here upset because I think he was tasked with doing a ton of stuff. So I don't look at like, I don't look at Draymond's defensive run through the playoffs against Houston and Minnesota and I'm not sitting here upset because I think he was asked to do a ton of stuff and for the most part battle. But you look at it and you're like, holy shit,

like do you realize like how special Randall has been to these 10 games? And it's like, okay, well now you get OKC and it's not just the primary defender. It's all of that other stuff that's happening. And immediately like the start of game one, it's like, hey, this back down turn dribble thing that takes a little while for you to set up.

So Randall not being that secondary on-ball creator and getting benched in game two, which is all you need to know, I'm like, hey, I wonder how they feel about him. Well, he played 32 of the first 36 minutes and now he's not gonna play any of the fourth quarter. They had it to one Oh three 90. And that was social clip, but he was telling his family to leave with like

six minutes left in game two. I thought that was weird. It was like Finch told them. Not, you know, we're going to make a run with Al you don't get mad. I need you for game three. It looked weird. I'll admit my first instinct now on any social clip is that I don't believe that is the thing that's being told me.

I think, by the way, that's a great first instinct. The first thing I think of. When you get the press conference clips where they're just like doctoring the audio out of the guy's mouth, and you're like, wait, that guy said that? Right. And then you realize, oh, they did AI with this.

I think I fell for one of those once, but I didn't repost or anything. I was like, holy shit, Harbaugh's like letting him like, I know Harbaugh. And then I was like, Oh, I was like, I don't think he'd say bitches though. Yeah. I saw that clip. I mean, if that's what it ended up being, you know, um, he handles it the right way. And I also think there's a part of this too, with, uh, with OKC, it's incredibly

frustrating in that first game was frustrating. I mean, SG has seven free throws at the seven something mark of the first quarter. And when Jayden chucked him during game two, I kind of liked it. Like people just could pile that in to be like, oh, they're breaking at the seams and Timberwolves are just so frustrated.

Yeah, they're- I didn't kind of like it, I loved it. And he's like, fuck this guy. Cause he had first. That's like the playoffs we grew up with. Yeah, and then it kind of gets packages like, oh, this shows that Minnesota's breaking. I was like, I think he's like, fuck this guy. Cause he had the playoffs we grew up with. Yeah. And then it kind of gets packages like, oh, there's shows that Minnesota's breaking. I was like, I think he's just pissed and he's sick of this guy. And by the way, that's not SGH free throws to me are not necessarily even the

story of the outcome of the first two games here. Um, but it wasn't the free throws. It was, it was the calls he was getting when he banged in other bodies that didn't resemble everything else that was being officiated in the entire playoffs. He was doing it. He would be side to side with somebody and he put his arm out and the, and McDaniel's had a couple fouls where he's just like, what the fuck am I supposed to do? Am I, should I run backwards?

When he fell down, they fell down and they challenged it. And the official was was pissed at Alexander Walker for being like, Alexander Walker was unhinged because he knew he just fell down. And then the ref kind of looked at him and a ref when they get, and I can't imagine being a ref and having guys yell at you for two and a half hours. Eventually you get sort of defensive and all these guys that's tossing drones flying around and the official gave it this look like, hey know, you foul them and it's on him. And it's like a little extra emphasis on what he's doing back to the scores table.

And you see the review and you're like, yeah, he just fell down. That's why those guys were all losing their minds. So they definitely got way too caught up in all that stuff. I think Minnesota is a good team. I wasn't going to pick them in this series. I thought the odds were a little crazy. Then the odds looked like they might've been too low with the way that Thunder controlled those third quarters, the stuff that the Thunder can go to here.

But you know, there's a Randall piece and the three point piece that makes Ant's night like it's predetermined. If Randall can't do anything. 20 for 40 from three and Randall's going to play well and Ant's making good decisions, they're a really good team. There you go. With that said, Caruso nine minutes. Didn't he get a bunch of fouls though? Yeah.

I'm just, he was minus 16 when he was out there and it was the first bad Caruso game in a while. Wallace only played 15 and he was minus 30 in the 15. I don't even know. Do these numbers matter though? Yeah, I'm just, I'm trying to figure out like to me, defense is going to be their identity in this series. And my guess is they're going to try to come back and be like, dude, we got here on defense.

Let's play some defense again. When Caruso goes out, there's like, give me Randall. That guy's not doing that again. He takes him. They'll throw dudes at Edwards. Uh, just try to make him give up the ball and they're going to see if Minnesota can go 20 for 40 from three again. Would be the strategy. I still like okay.

Scene five. Yeah. Look at the Caruso foul game was, was game two. Um, I just don't know what any of the stats will mean from any of the guys. And then, you know, they were talking about it because I was watching the broadcast a little bit with game three with Ruko, Legs and our guy Kirk Goldsberry. Yeah. I watched some of that too.

Although. It was delayed by two seconds. So that I like to get as live as possible. So I ended up going back. The two seconds. Having a big year, big, big legs here. He's been great. Can you give me an actor equivalent of like 20 years later? It's like, man, we appreciate this guy.

Yeah. Maybe it's kind of the surroundings. Yeah. Cause if you're in a neighborhood where you have one of like many good restaurants in the neighborhood, and then you're one of the only ones left and say, man, the food, this place is great. Might be one of those. Yeah, but Travolta, I'm trying to do a Travolta here for you.

Travolta's peaks were higher than earlier's legs peaks. So Travolta just went away and it was a- The Travolta comeback cannot be compared. No, no. It's not a comeback. He was literally six feet under in the ground and came back. But he had these peaks.

I don't think there's a satanite fever for legs. What I'm trying to think of is the actor who has been around forever and then later on. I mean, you can't even do brain- It's like a Leon Neeson. Yeah, but I don't, I don't know. I don't know about that. Tommy Lee Jones?

No country for old Ben. Is it no country for old Ben for legs? It might be because he was around, but I mean, I think it felt like he was having a bit of a comeback with the fugitive. Right. And then he had that run in the nineties, then it dipped again. Then it came back where he played the same character for a decade. Legs is doing great.

That might be at no country for old man. It's like, you can build the whole thing around this guy. Did you not realize this? He'd been here the whole time. Yeah. He's fucking awesome. Give him a giant monologue at the end. He's going to crush it.

Um, I was thinking, I don't know whether I would call this the sea change season or the something's different season. I mentioned this to you last week and I was going through seasons that just feel like something has shifted. It was back to your pacer's point, right? Cause if this is real, if this is normal, this is the way you want to build your team, this goes against anything we've ever accepted. We've gone from, it's better to have nine than three.

That's pretty weird. But, um, think all the things that happened this season, LeBron and Curry feels like those eras are over as like, if this is the best guy in your team, that doesn't mean you're even going to make the finals. Tatum goes down in the Boston thing, which goes from 2016 to this year. Now it feels like it's in flux. The Luca trade, which was the biggest trade in the history of the league. Cooper flag to Dallas and okay. See has arrived and San Antonio feels like they're reloading.

And it just feels like, it feels like the seesaw just went like this. The last time I was looking through all the seasons, trying to think when I felt like that with the season 2016, when Cleveland beat Golden state, Golden state had beaten. Okay. See, and then the weird salary cap thing and Durant just went to the warriors and we're like, Oh, it just felt like a shift. And for those listening, Bill did a thing where his thing was my arm.

I did it. I did a fake human seesaw. Imagine sides. I did a thing with my arm. I did a fake human seesaw. Imagine a plane and its wings dipping a bit. 2010-11 season right after the decision in Miami and the lockout was coming and it felt like the Celtics and Lakers had kind of run their course. We were in the tail end of Kobe and Gasol. That felt like that was not going to the best place. KG Pierce, Ray, that felt like that might be getting creaky.

OKC was coming with Durant and those guys. And we had all those awesome drafts in a row in 07, 08, 09, where just all these young players are coming to the league. And it was like, I don't know what's happening, but something's happening. And by the way, we may not have basketball season next year. So it was just like, we're on edge. And then the only other one I can think of was after MJ's, uh, he wins his last title and we immediately go into the lockout and Kobe and Duncan are coming

and the league's about to shift that way. And it seems like Grant, it seems like it's going to be Kobe, Duncan, grand Hill, MJ's gone. We have this lockout. The salaries are super weird. Every they're trying to get rid of these three year contracts for you get your in the league three years, then you can sign for a hundred million dollars. And it just felt like everything was fucked up.

Those were the seasons in the last 25 plus years that you could just tell something had changed. And I think this season feels like that. So I wanted your take. I would put it in that class. If the Pacers win this whole thing. Well, that's like, right. Yeah.

Then we're getting canned goods. Even if they make the finals, I think it feels that way. We get an Indiana okay. See finals. It's fucking crazy. But what'll happen is that everyone will agree with you and say that this now is different. And as I've said this entire time, like I would need to have, have this happen.

This would have to be the new normal for me to accept that this is the shift and that the league has changed. I feel like we're already here though, for this reason. Did you see that, that there was a graphic about the 25 most followed Instagram accounts in the NBA, which includes people like both Ball Brothers and Ben Simmons, but it was like the NBA players are the most Instagram followers and none of the four teams left had a guy in the top 25. I was like, that feels like something.

Well, Bridges posts suck. Too much Tommy. Um, now it just, it just feels like I think you add everything up combined with where we're going with this lottery and it just feels like something. And then the second apron thing, I didn't even mention that part. And just where we're going financially. I don't even, I don't like you add all that together and say, I don't know what this, what's going to happen with this league.

I still will refuse to believe that the outcome of this league will be dictated by players outside of the top 10 consistently. I forgot to mention the meteorites deal. We have new partners with the end of inside the NBA. by players outside of the top 10 consistently. I forgot to mention the media rights deal. We have new partners. We have the end of it inside the NBA. What does that have to do with the results? Just the flux of this year, like feeling like we're ending, we're ending something and heading towards something.

And there's also a study that says icebergs have gotten bigger for the first time. Global warming? Is maybe over. And the salary cap? I don't know that I believe that it's over, but there's data. There's new data bill. You're not with me.

It doesn't sound like plus Cooper flag coming. Well, Hey, if you want to hit me with all of the guys that are the marquee names and they're all kind of heading towards the end of this whole thing. Yeah, you're right. Luke on the Lakers. I mean, if you're asking me like, Hey, new teams are going to start winning. It's like, well, no shit. Like sports are so much.

That's what doesn't always happen though. Uh, well, like we're going to have Utah tanking, I guess, for the rest of the decade and still God only knows what's going to happen with them. Look at Charlotte, look at Washington. You know, it's. And then you go on the other side, by the way, did you know Brooklyn has four first round picks? For some reason, I didn't realize that until I was studying the draft and all the draft picks.

Yeah, I did. It's a really interesting spot. I saw some bad like, Hey, package all four. Like it's the NFL draft. Like that is one of the biggest disconnects of all time. Like if you were in the NFL and you say how give you 12, 17 and 20, like who knows? Like you might be able to get it up the top five. The NBA when it's like we don't want 20, 21 and 27. Like that's not going to get you. Right. Even though obviously Brooklyn's first

pick is a lot higher than I was, as I've mentioned, but even in the NBA, like if you're sitting there with eight and two other firsts, like, Hey, can we get to four? No. In the NFL, you could the NBA 19, 26 and 27. How high could you move up with those four? Could you get to fourth? Would Charlotte do that?

I don't think you could get to fourth. You don't think Charlotte wants four more rookies. No, no one wants four more rookies by the way. The only team I was thinking about that could potentially get excited is Darrell because he would just have all these picks. It would be like his Superbowl. You'd be like, I'm going to get, I'm going to build an entire bench right now for my guy, Joel Embiid.

Yeah. But even the most confident GM isn't gonna assume that he's gonna hit on all four first round picks. And then there are gonna be rotational pieces for a team that when Philly's healthy has Eastern Conference finals aspirations, championship aspirations.

Yeah. It's funny when, how often do you look through when we think about all these teams that are loaded with all their picks and then you actually look at the picks, you know, okay. C is one of those that I thought, okay. C was just like, holy shit. They have so many awesome picks. And now you go through it and I'm not sure they're that awesome, but they

have two Denver top five protected picks down the road. I've assumed yoga just still going to be there. They have that Dallas swap and 28, but now they have two Denver top five protected picks down the road. I've assumed Yoko is still going to be there. They have that Dallas swap in 28, but now they have Cooper flag. They have Clipper stuff in 26 and 27 swaps and this year, but the Clipper assume like they're going to be at least pretty functional for the next two years. And then they have the Philly 26 first, six per sec protected top four protected the next year. And Philly seems like they've reloaded. They have the Utah top protect, uh, top eight, right?

And 26. Right. That's not too much. No, no, I didn't say that one, but I almost assumed Utah is going to throw next year. So they don't really have like a genuinely juicy pick. Whereas, you know, like Houston has Phoenix's 27 first. next year, so they don't really have like a genuinely juicy pick. Whereas, you know, like Houston has Phoenix's 27 first, you know, and they have the ability to choose between Phoenix or Dallas's first and 29. Like those are picks where you're like, Oh, fuck.

Those are some, uh, those are some winners. Brooklyn has a couple of good ones too. Um, but, but again, it's like Brooklyn can swap with Houston in 27. What does that do for you? Houston's going to be really good. So sometimes when these teams put together all these picks, Utah is interesting because they still have a bunch of those Minnesota and Cleveland picks left,

but ironically the best pick they have is that sneaky trade they made. Um, near the deadline, that weird trade Phoenix made where they gave up the three firsts for their 2031 first, which Utah now has their 2031 first. Who the fuck's going to be in Phoenix in six years? You know, that could, that could end up being, yeah, it might be both of us. Um, the, the other one, there's some other weird trades that I just forgot. Three of us just hanging out. Well, Washington got Memphis's first round pick this year

because they took Marcus smart to go back to our Marcus smart trade. He went from I'm worth Chris steps, purzingis and two firsts basically to you have to trade a first to get rid of me to go to my next team. That's pretty, uh, pretty dramatic. Um, anyway, there was a reason I brought all this up. Oh, because of, uh, cause we were talking about how fast things can flip for who we think is looking good. Who knows? You think Utah, if there's somebody that's available, but the agent says, yeah, my guy will stay there. Because the idea of Utah taking another rookie guard, I mean, unless

the evaluation is just look at him and go, hey, he's better than everybody we already have. And this was an upset and he shouldn't have been here. Maybe it's it's just, because I think Edgecombe should be in the conversation with the other two Rutgers guys. I knew you were going to be in this corner. I've been waiting for it. I need to do more work, but I am a little surprised that after the combine, whether during the combine or after it's like, okay,

well, clearly we know who number one is. And then it's Harper and then it's everybody else. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Because- As I said two weeks ago, even though all indications is Santana's taking Harper, I don't know, Edgecombe seems like a, I know they are at a castle,

like it would be weird to have both of them, I guess, but I don't know. And Harper's shooting is better than his numbers. The reason his three-point shooting percentage is way lower than you would want is because he takes some terrible shots, which a lot of really big time, high profile high school guys come in being like, you know, I've got to, I've got to take these to show that I'll take them. So Harper, I think is going to be a better shooter than the numbers prove out.

And he does so many really good things like running the high pick and roll that you see all the time and all this stuff. And like, you know, Castles had a really nice year and he certainly seems to have the mentality of like, you would think he's going to attack this as a competitor, that he's going to care, you know, that he's going to love basketball and he certainly seems to have the mentality of like you would think he's going to attack this as a competitor, that he's going to care, that he's going to love basketball and he's going to be frustrated in those moments where he feels like he's not good enough. Like it was just everything, we're always trying to guess with any of these guys. But I don't feel like I see the same separation between Harper and Edgecombe that the draft conversation seems to be at right now.

Trying to remember, when was the last time that's happened? Where when in like April, May, we were like, oh no, here's gonna be the top four, and then something shifted as we got to mid-May, June. Oh no, yeah, Tatum was like consensus mock third. I just thought at the time, the more you watch. No, but Tatum's a good, I think Tatum's like consensus mock third. I just thought at the time. But Tatum is a good, I think Tatum is the right example though. Yeah, but everybody knew it was going to be-

Everyone was like, Fultz is going first. Right. And everybody knew Lonzo was going to the Lakers. So at least that was a little bit more accepted. It just, you know, Ace Bailey, if he was better, is your number two guy. Like there's- Isn't it more likely that he could drop versus go up? When I found out he was six, seven and a half

and not six, 10, I thought that was a complete game changer. Okay, but remember, we're going off, and I hate the league did this, and I'm probably one of the few people that even cares about this, but- No shoes? The no shoes thing, like Harper's listed at six, six, and he measures six, four and a half of those shoes.

So now it's presented as this huge disappointment or like what the hell's going on with these college programs. Like I think one year in lacrosse, one of my roommates just like they were like, Hey, what are you? And he was like six four two 30. And he, I didn't even think he was six feet. Yeah. And they just let him do it.

So that's been going on in college for, for years and years. I mean, it's probably a little bit tighter when you're one of the top players in the high school circuit. And then you end up, you know, at a D one program, but Harper is listed at six, six. And then he's six, four and a half. And so it's the same thing with ACE. It's like, Oh, I thought this guy was six, 10, six, 10 from six, seven and a half is a little bit different, but it frustrates me because then

you've just, I mean, I know the simple thing is like, well, hey, now they're just not in shoes, so factor that in, but then it gets relayed as if all these guys are just across the board comically shorter than all their listed heights. Like flag was another one. Yeah. Well, it's because they used to let them up until very recently, the official measurement was the measurement in shoes. So all of the things- I think we need, this is where we need a sports R

to really decide one way or the other with the measurements. Are we going shoes or no shoes? It's like when we talk about NFL seasons, are we saying that the 2001 Pats or the 2002 Pats that won the Super Bowl? Is it the year the Super Bowl was played or the year we had the regular season? There's just some things we haven't figured out

as a country. Well, maybe they were just like- We need some stability. Maybe it's a lot like the tariffs bill. It's like, we need, you're gonna have to take your medicine. Yeah. Okay, but trust us on this one. Not a statement, not a position.

Just obviously the rationale behind it. And maybe the NBA is looking at it the same way. Like, well, if he's gonna just start tariffing everybody, maybe we can start terrifying height. I, uh, I think it would be most likely ace, ace Bailey falls out of the top three, then stays in the top three. And I still have, uh, edge cone. I think climbing let's take a break.

I want to talk about Halberd. All right. Tyrese, Halberd, and we're taping this before game three. So he might, he might go one for 15 tonight with 12 turnovers. I was thinking, um, I don't turn the ball over a lot. That's true. That's for sure. I was thinking he's the best what if guy of this decade, considering all the

teams and all the fan bases that can look at him and go, even Golden State. And there was no way Golden State was taking him into during the COVID draft, which the COVID draft we'll be doing documentaries about because we had no March Madness and nobody could really work out. And you're just doing zoom interviews. Golden state knows Halliburton is absolutely perfect for them. And there's not quite enough of a resume to take a guy who's probably

in the seven to nine range at number two. It would have been really ballsy, but you would have had to absolutely love the guy. And they did try to trade back from what I heard, but nobody wanted to trade back because it was the COVID draft. Nobody. But here's a guy who I would assume Curry is the perfect Steve Kerr player, but Hal Burton's probably a close second for how he sees the floor and how he loves the unconstructed chaos.

So you have them, you have Detroit taking Killian Hayes over him. Burton's probably a close second for how he sees the floor and how he loves the unconstructed chaos. So you have them, you've Detroit taking, killing Hayes over him. You have the Knicks. Now this is a what if in both directions because they take top and over him, but it also leads to Brunson and all the good stuff that happens. So you're, you're probably fine with that. It worked out if you're a Knicks fan, Washington passes on him and takes our guy, Abdiah. Phoenix was the most indefensible.

And we said this in the moment because they actually needed, you know, to think long-term Halliburton and Booker together, they take Jaylin Smith who they wave after two years, and then San Antonio passes on him. See, of all of those teams before we get Sacramento number 12. Then you have, this is my favorite one of all of these. Philly could have traded Ben Simmons for him. It was the Hal Burton Heel trade. And I've argued with people about this for two years.

It was like, I was never on the table. That was never the trade. It was like, well, they traded Subbonus for Hal Burton and Heel. And they were offering Subbonus for Ben Simmons. So you can't say like, Oh, this couldn't have happened. But I just feel like if, if Sacramento wanted Ben Simmons, which I think they did because their stories about it, could that have been Hal Burton and healed? And I just don't think, I don't think Philly thought he was a big enough star. So you have that and then you have the Sacramento piece.

Sacramento had him for 109 games. Rossella they had him for a year and two thirds. And they were like Fox and Halberd and I don't know, this doesn't work. They weren't going anywhere. They had a chance to trade for some bonus, which made sense at the time. It worked out. They made, you know, they, they want to play off. They got to the playoffs.

They did all the, uh, stuff they did. But, um, end up trading them. So that is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight teams that are like, Oh, fuck, we could have, we literally could have had that guy. And now he's an Indian and he's not going anywhere. I don't remember another player like that. I would have to go back to like the 1990s when Jason Kidd got traded twice. And felt like he was available for a while there in the, in, on Dallas in the mid

nineties when that team wasn't working out. But for somebody as talented as Hal Burton, it just kind of be available both in the draft and as trade bait. It's pretty unusual. The Dallas thing is good, but I remember just having Mashburn around who just was one of my favorites back in the day, the early SPN stuff. And he was like, it was that bad. It was just that bad. And so when you're with it every single day, it's easy for us to be like, how could you ever be in the business of wanting to move off from Jason Kidd? But then again, of his own doing, it led

to another transaction later on for him. So I was just talking about kid, I think with Roger the other day and, you know, his highlights hold up in a way where I like watch the highlights and I fear we're never going to see anything like it. You know, I go, were we ever going to be like this lucky to see a player that could see the game this way? And you knew when you were watching it even back when he was playing in college, you're like, dude, this is something like incredibly special about this guy. And again, he has this awesome career in the whole thing. I don't know that we're putting Halliburton on that level,

but I like what you're doing because you're trying to figure out, like, why would you have moved on from it? I think the funniest thing about the Cibonis Halliburton deal is that it happens. It's like, how do you do? You can't, no one ever does a deal like this. No one ever takes a lottery pick and then moves on from him this quickly, especially when it looks like you got it right with the pick and you can't believe he fell to where he fell. And it's a really fun trade when it happened.

Right. But then it, it's like, Oh, here we go again with Sacramento. And then Sabonis makes all NBA two seasons. And it's kind of funny. They win 48 games. Yeah. You look at, and you also look at like Sabonis' career stuff. This year, everybody's like, no thanks. Right. Because the numbers are still really, really good, but it's pretty clear.

Like when he's your center, there are just limitations on what you can do. But Sacramento to even have that, that high seed a few years ago, like how can you get on their case when they took a surplus and added a need and it's worked and it's worked for a team that doesn't really get to sniff in this area. But, you know, now we get to like, we're, we re litigate this trade so much, that I think it just proves once again, you can't ever give up on lottery we re litigate this trade so much, um, that I think it just proves once again, you can't ever give up on lottery talent. So you think it worked even if you think it's redundant. Well,

or maybe you could make a, they traded the wrong guy case too. Well, yeah. I mean, did you think at the time, did you think at the time, it's like, Hey, trade Fox because De'Aaron felt like he, you know, of all the things that I prioritize and I've talked about it, but like, can you get your own when it matters? And De'Aaron's that guy. It's always felt like he's more that guy than Halliburton is. The case for trading him was that the money was kicking in with him faster.

So you had the Halliburton on the, on the rookie deal versus paying more for Fox. But yeah, I mean, it was, I think the Knicks were trying to get Fox there for, they loved him obviously because the Kentucky piece and what kind of Godfather deal, but I don't think they ever shot Fox. And I think Hal Burton was kind of being dangled just because the Fox Hal Burton thing didn't work, which in retrospect is kind of crazy. I actually think when you think about where the league's gone the last few years, they actually could have built their own version of what Indiana has with, you know, around

like around two guards who had the ball at the time who were attacking. I think the other piece though, you know, it's so funny, like Rick Carlisle felt like he got old in Dallas in a lot of ways. Right. And then they finally moved on for him. He got old in Dallas in a lot of ways, right. And then they finally moved on for him, um, where, how inventive he was, um, for a lot of his career, but it just felt like maybe the league was moving in a different direction or something was happening, but then you watch when he

was able to re how he rekindled, how everybody felt about him as a coach in Indiana and how, I mean, that's stuff they were doing to the Knicks and game two. I was watching the, uh, the Twitter clips the next day and some people are putting some good stuff on and watch what they do to towns. Yeah. What, what did you like? Just chaos. You know, they, they had, they pushed the pace so they get a lot of one of the

things that Celtics, I was watching it more from, I was driving myself crazy about those first two Celtic games, which are moving up the ladder of all time. Worst losses still, still healing from those first two games. The worst Celtics loss of my lifetime was 2010 game seven finals. Game four 22 is up there. I think when you lose a game that actually like where you could have won the title and you didn't win because that those have to be the highest. But I think the combo of those two games, it's really up there historically,

like blowing two 20 point games in a row, but part of the reason they blew it and you're watching Indiana's doing, they're pushing the pace. They're just trying to make towns stagger around at the top of the key, not having any idea where he should be or using Robinson. There was one awesome play where they were in the same play with McConnell twice in a row on the right side. And the first time Siakam stayed in the corner and Robinson was kind of guarding him, but guarding the rim.

And then the second time Siakam snuck up and got this wide open three, if they were using all the shit the Knicks are bad at against them. And it's, it's, he was doing the same stuff last year. Like they really gate went toe to toe with Boston in that Eastern finals. And that series is way closer than I think it felt. It was the closest sweep I've ever watched. I never felt comfortable in any of the games. Um, but anyway, I just thought, I think he's figured out pace and chaos

in a way that's really unusual for a league where everybody wants to know exactly what they're doing. But Boston's the worst possible example of that. Let's walk it up. Let's play one four. Let's wait till eight seconds. Come set a pick. We're going to hunt this one match up.

And I think the Knicks just got used to it. And they're not, they can't get used to whatever Indiana is doing. I hate talking about this before game three, but that's what I noticed. I just felt like the Knicks were frazzled by Indiana. You know what I mean? I do. I, you know, look, you can just tell a lot based on like sub patterns too. Cause in that fourth quarter there, he doesn't go back to cat until it feels

like they need his offense because he didn't, I think it was, I mean, I've got it somewhere here, but I mean, he was in at two 25 when it was one 10, one Oh one. So at that point you figure he's coming in because they got to make up the nine points somehow and they're willing to give up. I mean, he was subbed out with nine minutes to go. I thought the other great thing was that the Pacers won that start of the fourth quarter. Cause I thought in game one,

they were losing the game because of how bad they were when Brunson goes out with a foul trouble and then it's a 10-0 run like that in two minutes ago. This is supposed to be, I mean, even would be a disappointment because Brunson is out in these minutes right now. And you may have just lost this game with OG getting a couple buckets. So if Tibbs is taking out Cat with nine minutes to go in the fourth quarter and they're not really making up any ground and then he brings them back in at 225, he realizes how much

of an issue Cat is. I think you said something, because sometimes it is very straightforward. It's let's get to switch on Cat. Let's see what we have. Let's attack. But for Boston, it was always just that. It was always just that. There's been a couple things,

and it even takes me like a second time to notice it, where it's like you think we're switching into the cat hunt here with the ball handler, but what we're really doing is there's this other thing where somebody's like crossing underneath it, and that's really what the whole play is, because we've shown you this. It just, I know what you're saying.

We're really trying to catch Mitchell Robinson asleep. You think we're going after Cat, but we're really trying to get Mitchell Robinson to forget that somebody is about to back up behind him. Or we're using the first screen. The first screen doesn't really even matter. So Cat's overplaying and he's freaked out, but actually what he has to do is make up ground and follow that his first primary defensive assignment is now actually setting a screen for somebody else. So now you're like, well, shit, I was worried about Halliburton at first, but now I don't know if I'm supposed to take the cut

or stay with my original guy. And so it was just a little bit, I don't know how many times this happens, but it's not just, hey, high pick and roll, even though there's plenty of that. I mean, Halliburton, when I was watching game two, I'm kind of like getting frustrated even with Halliburton dancing with Mitchell Robinson for such a long time.

And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But you're like, okay, this is a little predictable and it's getting a little late and then shot clock. I could totally understand being a Celtics fan and watching some of this stuff going, it was all right there. And when Kat's not the one to attack, Brunson's the one to attack.

And why is that complicated? And why aren't you pushing the ball? That's the other thing. One of the things Indiana's doing is they, Indiana's just brought, Indiana's brought back the fast break, which was basketball, since the entire time we started playing it,

is we gotta rebound. Go. Siakam has been killing them on leaking out. And you know, I was very critical of Siakam after the first game, because I went, you know, this is kind of who I like some good numbers and, you know, in the playoffs, he hasn't shot it really well from distance the last four years of being in the playoffs. And, you know, there's a marginal decline in place, which isn't, you know, the end of the world or anything like that, but you know, he's so big and you're like, there's no matchup for him out there.

There's no matchup for him. I mean, is it as simple as, Hey, it's OGs on him. And we know how disastrous that was for any ball handler with the Celtics going at OG, but the fact that they early on were like, we want to get you going. And then he starts hitting everything. And those were like really nice shots from Siakam too, that mid post back into you, hit you, fade away. Uh, but you know, I, I wouldn't be shocked for New York matching, even though it's on

the road, New York matching, you know, again, we don't know what's going to happen here tonight, but do you think there's this massive gap between these two teams? Cause I do. I don't, I don't. I'd like to see more bridges. I think it's interesting. And again, we're taping this for game three. I think it's interesting that all those Detroit games were so close and that

they were down 14 plus in the first five Knicks games. And that the bigger the sample size gets, they just don't have a lot of games. Like, okay, see, they sucked in game three. Okay. See, he's had a lot of quarters and stretches and even entire games where they've just killed teams and that's what would worry me the most about is the Knicks fan. They're not having game six against Boston was the only time they like killed

the team, right? And that was a team that had poor Zingas in a borderline coma, no Tatum, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, we're just taking 17 shots per game. borderline coma, no tatum, et cetera, et cetera. Can we read? By the way, Bridges is taking 17 shots per game. So maybe we have seen, I just, every time with him, I feel like he finds a way to get space into a really great look.

And nobody can figure out that weird 45 degree angle jump shot he has. He has body control. He bends and nobody blocks it. I don't know what his testing would be on, I don't know if it would show up even in the three cone with him. He had two plays in game two.

One was the fast break football outlet to him where he has only a foot to catch it and then get up and still make the layup. And you're thinking like, first of all, the pass is great and it hits him. And it, but his feet were going to be wrong. And it was like, I've got to catch this and then get my feet right. And then still go up and finish. And it was awesome.

And then he had another play where he comes baseline. He turns and it looks like anybody else's body would just like over rotate because if he was trying to like pull a trick on a snowboard and he gets turned and I know there's other players that are athletic enough to do this stuff, but he gets turned where you'd think his body would keep going and then it just kind of stops in midair because he has such great body control so that he's able to get himself squared up and everything. And I don't, I don't know that look when he's going to the side and those hard dribbles that

we saw even in the last round, when he would have that, that huge fourth quarter moment in game two. When he gets all that momentum going with his dribble to one side and then he's pulling up with his length and the way he's leaning, you're just not contesting that shot. So I know he's taking 17 shots a game here and I'm saying, hey, more bridges. But I don't like it when he gets through these stretches where he's just kind of stuck in the corner. I think we saw probably maybe too much. Yeah.

It was shocking to watch what he did to Derek white. I thought he was just able to score at him whenever he wanted. Basically quick 2020 NBA redraft. Minnesota takes Edwards again. Right. We can pencil that one in. Golden state took wise men second. I just think they shouldn't do that again.

No, I don't think so. I think a wise man is no longer the second pick and I think it's Albert. I think they take him and they're delighted by it. And then him and Steph Curry, uh, this is a, quite an altering universe. Charlotte had the third pick. They took Lamello ball. Tyrese Maxey still on the table. You think they take Tyrese Maxey or Lamello ball, the third pick? I think they would still take Lamello.

Really? Interesting. Over Tyrese Maxey. I know who I would prefer, but, um. Well, let's say we were the conciliaries for the pick. Who would we tell them to take? I would tell them to take Tyrese Maxey. That would be my suggestion. All right.

We'll give them the Mellow Ball. So Chicago is at four. That would be my suggestion. All right. We'll give them the Mellow ball. So Chicago is at four. They took Patrick Williams. I'm not sure they're running that one back. So you think they would take maxi here? Yeah. All right. So the Mellow maxi are three, four in some order here.

If maxi goes three, I mean, you're not going to drop the Mellow. No, I had the Mellow four. I Maxi goes three, I mean, you're not going to drop Lamello four. No, I had Lamello four. I had Maxi three though. Cleveland's fifth, they took Isaac Okoro. Who'd you have for here? I had somebody written down. Well.

Or you want me to give you the name? No, I think I might take Jaden McDaniels or Bain. I have Bain. You'd rather have McDaniels than Bain? Normally I'd rather have scoring than defense. I like where this is going. I do, I think whatever the end of this season is for Minnesota, it feels like a win on the development part of Jaden McDaniels because he's never going to be the first

or second option for this team. Yes, he gets stuck in the corner a lot. Um, he may never really develop into a guy who daily we can run some stuff for him with the ball in his hands on the other side, but whereas like there's some players that go, that's never going to happen. And it's still like unlikely for Jayden. There's a lot I really like about him, even though Bain has just been a flame thrower since he stepped into the league.

Bain would probably be more fun for you to work out with. Or it'd be super depressing. It's in the gym a lot, it seems like. So he's almost, Bain is, I'm doing an age thing here. Uh, Bain is almost 27. Yeah. And Jaden is, uh, he's two years younger. So for the people listening, if you don't remember, Bain ended up going 30.

He got drafted by the Celtics and then traded. And this was one of the reasons the COVID draft is so legendary because. Like just look how we did the first five, number one, number 12, number 21, number three and number 30 were the first five. Um, at land is up next. So it sounds like you would add McDaniel's or Bain, whoever's leftover in this spot, which I agreed with. Yeah.

Well, he went 28th McDaniels. You know what my biggest criticism of McDaniels is? It has nothing to do with anything about him. I think he gets no respect from the referees and I don't really understand it. And I've noticed that over and over again, he gets called for, um, touch fouls that I don't feel like any other elite defender gets whistled for. And I don't really fully understand why, but you can kind of feel it too. Like I remember going to game two of the Lakers and you were just like, ah,

they're just going to foul him out of the game. I can see where this is going. First two okay. See games. I felt like the whistle was not fair with them. And then in game three, all of a sudden started getting a good whistle again. All right. So Atlanta, Jaden McDaniels, Detroit took killing Hayes.

Number seven. I'm going to say they're not going to do that again. This is either Devin Vassell, Denny, Obdi or Aaron Neesmith. We're in that range. I think they're one of those three. Who do you have? This is funny because I didn't think I'd spend my Sunday Memorial Day weekend going who says no between Denny and Vasell.

It's, it's an unexpected joy for you. You know, people were like, you get a lot of work this weekend. I was like, yeah, kind of like, you're going to have any fun. You're going to have any fun. And I was like, right when we say goodbye at're going to have any fun. You're going to have fun. And I was like, yeah. Right when we say goodbye at the end of this pod. Are you kidding? I think Vasell's the pick, but I'm still kind of holding out.

I think Denny's going to be pretty good. And maybe there's a little bit more to Avdia than there is Vasell. But I think Vasell's the more proven like, Hey, come in and get buckets and score and give us spacing and, and all that kind of stuff where, I mean, Denny's just so aggressive and the rebounding. I have Vasell here as well. He went 11th.

I have Denny going to the Knicks with the next pick. He went ninth to the Washington Wizards. I can't believe Prichardard still on the board for years. Oh yeah. Then I have knee Smith going to Washington. Any arguments over a Congo? Yeah.

I'm just watching Aaron Neesmith with flame shooting out of his ass. It's Nick series. It's a recent sub bias. Then the next three are a Congo quickly and Prichard with Phoenix, San Antonio and Sacramento all in the clock. The Congo went to go on six to Atlanta quickly went 25th and Prichard went 26th. So, uh, and, and Phoenix, as we talked about, uh, famously botched this pick. So I'm going to say a Kong Wu for them. This is where it gets exciting.

I'll admit with the Kong Wu, I always think he's better. No, I always think he's better. I think they think he's better. They finally made the change, uh, this year and maybe it's just the idea of him. Or maybe they were were I don't know if they're trying to keep the keep his value down a little I don't I don't know that I kind of like like him me too and basically this property with me and no this is on blue island this feels like a make or break, a Kongu season.

How's that? I think that's totally fair. Yeah. Then I have quickly gone to San Antonio and Pritchard going to Sacramento. And then we don't have to do anymore after that. He already has the extension, that is super easy number here, but he-

Pritchard. No, no, no, I meant Hongroo. I'm still on him. Cause he only started 40 games this year, but it was very clear after never starting any games. I mean, he did technically start games. It feels like a Kong Wu time is on the horizon down there in Atlanta. Quickly or Prichard?

Can't factor in contracts. No, I honestly with Prichard, I think he is more adaptable to what you need from him, where if quickly just doesn't get 16 shots against the second unit. Quickly was awesome a couple of years ago, okay? But it was very clear. It was like, hey, it's quickly time. I think he needs that freedom to be as impactful where Prichard, man, it's not just the dribble pull- mean, it's not just the dribble pull ups. It's not just the dribble drives, which he got really good at, I thought this year, but it's also the catch and shoot.

So I think he's a little bit more versatile in how you can use them as an offensive player where for the most part, it's like quickly just going to go. All right. So we just did a top 12. It's exciting. And the guys, where they were actually picked versus how that top 12 went. Number 1, number 12, 21, 3, 30, 11, 9, 28, 14, 6, 26, and 25.

That is fucking nuts. And we don't have, out of the guys in the top eight, we only have three. So it just makes you think like when we were going to spend all this time on this draft, maybe you're better off with the 13th pick than the fifth. Like who the f- it's such a crap shit every year and we always forget it, which is why I think the redrafts are always kind of interesting to redo. This one was a crazy one though, cause of COVID. This was not considered a great draft by the way. Also, Siddique Bay's healthy.

Who knows? You know, maybe he's in the conversation. But you're right. Like I, I'm shocked cause I do it usually around this time every year and I'll probably have a segment with the slow opening monologue night before. But the number of guys that are in the top 10 and how rare it is now, like for that person to be on the team to draft them. And I mean the team that actually like has them,

not the draft rights thing. Which can make it even more confusing. How many of those guys get to their fourth year? I think one stretch I did it over like a five year stretch and it was less than 50% of the guys in the top 10. Because we knew that was always my point of like, oh cool, I'm trading picks in the 20s all the time. Like who gives a shit?

And history still tells you like there's a significant drop off. And when you're grabbing a rotational guy that's going to make it to a second contract somewhere in the 20s, that's a massive win. Also speaks to your boy, Ainge too. Cause you start going through this Ainge draft where it felt like Boston had a move. He's been through Prichard, Rob Williams. Yeah, he was nailing him. He's had some really good picks that like, Hey, that guy's going to play like 10 years.

So yeah, so as I talked about the 20s stuff, which we've talked about for a really long time, teams were on this for a long time. I always felt like those picks were just a little overrated, but it sounded really cool to be like, hey, this expiring vet or whatever. And like, you know, it depends if he's expiring and you're getting something. So I'm not criticizing that transaction.

But then it's like, okay, so that means all the top 10 picks are really valuable. And then you look at those and you go, my God. Yeah, this is where the stars are. So that means a chance at one of them is valuable, but the return on even the guys in the top 10, you'd be shocked, and I'll do it again this year, but you'd be shocked how many times the guy

is not even on the team in the fourth year of the rookie contract. Also crazy how many times an awesome player falls into the 12 to 17 range? Because it happened that 21 draft to write sent Shen Gun and Trey Murphy fell to 16 and 17 Halibur and photo 12 where to book or go like 13 Can you follow me? Yeah somewhere like in the 13 range. That's something like that Yeah, well the problem for him was that team in Kentucky was loaded. So, uh, yeah.

13th pick a call. There's always one guy in that range that nails it. All right, before we go, because we're going to go enjoy our Memorial day. I asked you to, you have to give me one absolutely crazy prediction for the summer that deep down you don't think is that crazy. Nets running back with Kyrie. All right, make the case, let's hear it. Josiah, all is forgiven.

That's not, you gave me this like one minute before I jumped into the zoom. Um, it was like 20. There's not what, there's not one. It could be like a Jalen Brown ends up in Houston kind of level. I think there's going to be three major name transactions. I do. Because I think one will go and then the other teams that we're working on at all, it's easier going to feel left out. And I'd imagine one of those top five picks move. Which I think is, yeah, but it also could be maybe Utah just says we have to do something.

Like we have to figure out a way to package this unless, you know, they get done with the entire draft thing. And they go, hey, look, edge comb fell to us. Uh, the Kyrie thing was kind of a joke though, because I was thinking about his negotiation and he can opt out of the 44 million this year. And you're thinking, okay, but what, what do I have to pay you? And you're not going back to the nets. Like the one team with all this cap space isn't going to the nets. And now if you're Tyree's representation, you can go, it doesn't matter what our leverage is or isn't. But we said this two years ago with him and he still got that awesome contract from them. Remember?

We were like, who are they competing against? Didn't matter. He got the 40 million a year. Yeah, but it was almost like they admitted we had to give him this because what we gave up for him. And you're like, okay. You could argue it's going to be the exact same thing, that he's gonna get everything that he wants

because of even with the number one pick and bringing in Flagg, it's like, so wait, you're gonna play hardball with me now though when you talked about this window and wanted to build this team around me and Anthony Davis? So I was trying to be cute with it. I don't actually believe that that would happen, but I don't know what Brooklyn's going to do with all of their cap space. Would

Detroit try to, and they might not have enough space with the way that Cade's contract goes up a little bit here, but would they just go, Hey, we'll give you the full four years to Miles Turner. You know, we have a stretch five to go with Duran. If you want to switch this and try to take away from a team that we're tough. Cause we know I was looking at him. We know the center market and it's in the, it's around 20. That's where these guys land and over and over again, except with the exception of sub bonus.

So we think it's 20, but then we know with free agents, especially when there's not a lot of them out there, all of a sudden somebody gets some crazy deal. Do you think Miles Turner has worked more than 20 million a year? I think he is when there aren't any other good free agents out there. I mean, he's still only 29 years old.

He just turned 29 two months ago, even though it felt like, again, we said this at the top, it felt like he was available there for a long time, but he was available in that way, where it's like, well, we don't wanna just give him away. Whatever you may think about his deficiencies, there's still a lot of really good stuff about it. And now here they are two games away from the NBA finals. But he was available partly because he kept getting thrown into Laker trades that seemed like they were just coming from Laker fans. You know, where they're like, oh, they're going to trade for Miles Turner and Buddy Hale.

It's like, are they? I don't know. Why is he doing that? Like, I believe he was available for awhile, but they weren't, but they weren't going to give away though. They wanted to get a good player back for him. I'm going to give you mine. I didn't really give you one.

You, you didn't have one. You didn't have one. I got, you know what though? 20 plus years of doing this. We got a few minutes out of it anyway. So thanks in advance. I have a good one. Can we talk about Lebron going to Cleveland?

Sure. Can we just talk it out? Yeah, for sure. There's a couple of ways it could go. It's a really interesting last act for him. I'll start here with what they have with their assets. They have with him, Luca and Reeves together Reeves. I guess you could try to trade him this summer, which you'd have to with the If what they have with their assets they have with him, Luca and Reeves together, Reeves,

I guess you could try to trade him this summer, which you'd have to with the way his contract is going to go. But I'm not sure if you're getting a piece back that if you put Luca and LeBron and whatever that piece is together, I still don't know what that gets you if you're the Lakers. And the GOAT stuff, which just doesn't end ever. And every time you think it's over, now the agents are frightened of David Falk defending MJ. And then Rich Paul's like, well, I've got to defend LeBron.

Now we have the agents of the two guys involved in the goat discussion arguing about who's the goat. That's how bad it's gotten, how stupid it's gotten. I want it to end so bad. And it, like, I just thought after a certain age, honestly, with LeBron, to me at this point, there's only things he could add to his legacy. Playing this long. I don't think there should be any result, any stat line where you're

allowed to then go, well, you know, I thought you were this, but this age 41 season, I've got to reassess things. You know, I didn't, Steph is kind of getting close to that. Like if Steph loses in the first round, it's like, oh, this guy lost this many times in the first round or didn't get it. Yeah, the resume is complete. We've already printed it out in our printer, we have it.

That would be a good segment where it's like, once you're past this threshold, like we can't, it's like the over 38 rule, but it's legacy talk. Where we can't take anything away from you now. You know, it's like LeBron has 40,000 points, but he didn't get 42. Like you're just okay. He's coasting a bit against Minnesota.

I don't know. Second team, OMBA. Is that good enough? If you're doing game four breakdown and saying, Hey, I thought LeBron wasn't showing the initiative that he showed in game three. That's totally fair. But if you're then using that as some like, Hey, Jordan will never do that. Jordan will never fucking coast. It's like, dude, I don't want to do this. It makes me actually want to talk about Angel Reese more. So that doesn't happen.

Look, Angel Reese post-ups. I think we should have, I ran into Rich Paul recently and it was funny because I thought he was coming over to give me shit about something I said. And honestly dude, he's so good. He's so good with people. I was like, hey man. And he's like, what's up? And I was like, are you getting on my case? Because he's like, man, I don't care about any of that shit.

He's like, I don't know what you're talking. And then he started talking to me about college football. He's like, I love like the stuff that you and van and how much you love college football. And I was like, God, I forgot. Cause I hadn't talked to him with forever. And I was like, I forgot like how good he is. Compliments are a currency.

Yeah. Right. And he, but it's again, in a very genuine way, which I think is like our good friend, Tim, Tim Walsh, he's like the rich Paul of my friend. Timmy Walsh. Right. Tim is interested in you. He's complimentary.

He's sincere and it always is actually very genuine. It's not, it's not so anyway. Um, I don't know that I'll have Rich Paul on to defend himself against David Falk because I can't fucking take it anymore. Every time I see a first take clip that actually like legitimately addresses it. They did it on Friday. It was, there couldn't have been more news.

It was the basketball news galore. But guess what? It gets the same reason why, like when ESPN tagged the Caitlin Clark, like they lost, it was Breonna Stewart got that awful foul call, look at me, your guy. And, uh, there was, there was like, the headline was like, despite Caitlin Clark's efforts, liberty, did they lose the liberty? I don't know.

And then it was like, Oh, look what, look what they're doing. It's like, no, they're not, they're not doing anything. They're giving you what you want because somebody is going to click on that because it led with Caitlin despite Caitlin Clark's effort, not, Hey, Liberty win on controversial late free throws. And it is the same thing as LeBron is that until people start going, I can't fucking take it anymore. I'm not clicking on this. I'm not watching the videos, but I imagine the results are still there. Even though what is left? There's not only there's no fucking bone left. Forget meat on the bone.

The bone is disintegrated. The carbon dating on this thing. And I've yet to meet anybody. Have you met anyone who's changed their mind. And I've yet to meet anybody. Have you met anyone who's changed their mind? And again, I just did five minutes on it. You mean the one person who was like, I was having a, I was at a party on World Day weekend. I met this guy and he thought LeBron was the goat. And we had a drink and I laid out the case for MJ

and he changed his mind. He was like, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'm now on team MJ for the goat debate. I'm telling you right now, like if you're a guy in the TV opinion world, and you already have to be like being invited to being on shows, like I can't the college kids listening right now, I'm like, I don't know if you're going to have the platform do it, that would be the move. Like instead of, you know, where Skip was just, he was moving all of his belongings out of LeBron storage. Yeah, but like Skip was moving his stuff out of

LeBron storage unit and he was putting it in his aunt storage unit because he thought he was like, you know, these old timey writers think these nicknames are actually fucking funny or it's like, can't man. And you're like, oh, that's Ruffles McHenry in the Globe, 1981. Thought of that in the showers. He's doing the Ray Liotta, finding out the heist happened. He's like, can't man, I did it. The move would be for an opinion guy that's like maybe not getting the, you know, it's like, ah, I'll get another fill-in shift. Like I'm not even a head count.

Yeah. The move would be- July 5th show. That's when you're having me. Wait, so the jump is live on location and then at second, and you want me to be the backup third person in the LA live studios.

But Greeny's not gonna be on Get Up. And I'm only out of the first half hour. That happened to us on Get Up once. It was like, who is it? It's Cassidy, Rossello and who? Right. And that person didn't show up. July 5th.

Yeah. I think that'd be a win. I think that'd be a real lane. It's like I'm open. I haven't decided. No, to go on record and say, after the next, cause it's gonna come up again. Be like, I've been in the lab.

I've been doing the research. I've been doing the research. I'm going to lay it out. I've changed my mind, changed my mind guy. I don't think he exists in TV right now. Here's the, here's it's funny because we're making fun of this, but I'm also talking about a LeBron Cleveland scenario. I'm just wondering if it all ends with him going back to Cleveland. By the way, I'm not inventing this people.

This has been floating around for the last three, four weeks. And people have been wondering just be after how it ended for Cleveland. It's like, okay, what could they do? There's a couple of different ways. First of all, I'm pretty sure unless I, unless I don't think I'm wrong that they could just trade Jared Allen and Deandre Hunter for LeBron James and take the second year of his deal and maybe give them a one year extension.

That's a trade that I, according to the trade machine, which still operates on, on a, on ESPN, apparently that's a trade that works. Yeah. I am so nervous with the trade machine now too, because stuff that works. It's like Stadmuse. You just don't know. Yeah. You just don't know.

It's just like, Hey, it says it. I don't know if I believe it, but it's claiming this works. Um, you could have the LeBron opt out and then signed for a smaller deal. So like they, it could just be LeBron for Jared Allen, a trade that I'm not even sure Cleveland would want to do because the bronze could be 41 years old next year, but he could opt out, do a deal around like 20 million straight up trade for Allen. Or he could opt out of his deal and sign with them for the 12.9 mid level, or he could sign with them for the 12.9 mid level, or he could sign

with them for the minimum. Yeah, but I don't know. See, this is where. Cause it'd be like, I'm passing up. I could have made 50 million. I want to win one more title in Cleveland so badly. I left that money on the table. Cause that's how much I want to win.

Be nice if you do it for the Lakers. Would it be like, I'm off their cap now. Yeah. I felt like I owed this to the Lakers. I hate to do this, but. Yeah. You kind of like this. No, no, no. But this is the problem.

Whenever you and I are just bullshitting and talking about trades and different stuff, and then it's like, oh, that actually isn't allowed. And then you just want to yell at me. Hey, we're 13 in this guy. Just pick one. 13 to move some of this stuff around. If Cleveland is over the tax though, they're not gonna have the full non-payer tax mid-level,

which is 14, I think this year. So now we're talking like 5 million. Look, if he's given up 50 million. You might be right. He's probably giving up. I would say one of the things that was very consistent about the way LeBron has handled the finances here is that even if it wasn't that much of a haircut,

because it was the sign of trade to Miami, but there was always like this position of, hey, LeBron isn't the highest paid player in the league, isn't the highest paid player in the Miami. But there was always like this position of, Hey, LeBron isn't the highest paid player in the league. Isn't the highest paid player. It was always like 97%. Pretty much right there. And then when they did this last deal, my guess is they're doing these deals the way they're doing them so that he has the flexibility to opt out and then tack on

the next year with the next option. And the Lakers were just, I mean, I guess the Lakers could have played hard ball with them last year, but they didn't want to do that. Coby famously was like, I'm going to get paid every dollar I deserve, I deserve until the end of my career because I've made you guys a shitload of money and there will be no haircut, pay me.

Just fundamentally, if they were able to add LeBron and keep Garland, let's say he did the minimum thing. Let's say he said, let's stack the calves. And they were finishing games with Alan and Mowgli and LeBron and Mitchell and Garland. It's pretty interesting. And a weekend East. and Mitchell and Garland. It's pretty interesting.

In a week in the east. I don't think it's gonna happen, but it was the craziest thing I could think of that I could also, I wouldn't be like, oh my God, like with the Luka trade. I wouldn't be like, oh my God, he's going back to Cleveland because we've already done this with him. And it would be an interesting way for his career to end

if he felt like he had one year left. What do you think? And again, I'm not the first person who thought of this. I'm not taking credit for it. What if Mitchell, what do you think Mitchell would say to his closest friend? Awesome. Cool. The goat. I think there's some pretty, there's some pretty interesting issues that come into play pretty quickly, right? Yeah, I don't, I get what you're talking about here, but I don't, I don't really know that it makes that much sense for them. It feels too risky, weirdly for Cleveland. Yeah.

One 64 games, like the Allen and Hunter for LeBron. If you're doing that, it's partly because you're trying to maybe dump contracts in the longterm. You're going to take the hit for one year with the money, but then longterm you're actually going to reset your, your cap because they can get away with some second apron stuff next year, just not the year after. Um, I was trying to think, is there any other team I could see him wanting to go to that would give him a chance to win the title, the Pacers for the mid level?

I don't think, I don't think the Pacers would go. Dallas was interesting as, as one too, because a kid and AD and, um, Cooper flags there, Kyrie's coming back. I don't know. That was the only other one I could think of. Cause otherwise he stays with the Lakers and they trade Reeves. And if I was a Laker fan, I'm not sure that's the outcome I'd be hoping for. Right.

Like, oh cool. We're gonna have to trade Reeves. Although Luca, I don't know if you saw the pictures of Luca recently. I don't trust pictures. I don't trust video clips. I don't trust pictures. It's slim. Looks like he had some Caesar salad wraps, some carrot juice.

I don't know. You give me a golf weekend with my buddies and on Monday, I look like something's wrong with me. That's how I'm going to feel after this three-day weekend. Something wrong with you? You go out last night? You were a little choppy to start the pod today. What do you mean choppy? Just tired? Were you tired? Were you up late last night doing something in Hollywood? No.

I'm just old. That's what it is. What's going on? I think we need to address this. What's up with you with the pickleball thing? You hit that guy right in the head. What is it? I don't play pickleball. That's what I would tell a jury. I've never ever played pickleball. You've never played pickleball indoors and assaulted somebody. I've never played pickleball indoors.

I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors.

I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never played pickleball indoors. I've never ever played pickleball. You've never played pickleball indoors and assault. I've never held the pickleball racket. I think that was reprehensible.

What was in me? What are you talking about? There's footage of you. Um, yeah, go in, let's do this. We'll do this, do it live. Okay. Are you going to send this to me? Yeah. You know what? I'll actually send. Let's do this. We'll do this, do it live. Okay. Are you gonna send this to me? Yeah, you know what? I'll actually send it to you.

Okay. Because I've been tagged on it a million times and it was unavoidable. And so, let's see here. This is people getting pissed on our mobile Yannis thing again. Oh.

Was that a week ago? Two weeks ago. Um, can you, can somebody, nobody's with you right now? Right. All right. I'm gonna, I'm going to go into the hell of Twitter and Google my name with pickle ball and see what happens. That does look like me. I would, first of all, I would never wear a green shirt.

Definitely not. Oh my God. You gave it to that guy. A kick? And another guy comes in? How about your backpedaling though? That guy looked like he was ready to... He was on the longest drive at some charity event after like a couple nooners. It was not me.

I swear in the lives of my kids, I've never played pickleball. I'm glad we could clear that up. Yeah, thanks. Thank you for clearing that up. I didn't know this was a thing. This is amazing. Yeah.

I hate pickleball. I'm already on the record. I think it's one of the worst things that's happened in the last 10 years from a competitive sports standpoint. I don't like hearing the noises. I don't like the people that play. There's a ton of injuries with them because people feel like they're like playing like adult ping pong and don't realize they're going to blow

out their ligaments and Achilles. It's stupid. Just play tennis. Just play tennis. Tennis is great. We've had tennis forever. There's tennis courts everywhere. Pick up a tennis court.

You'll get more exercise. That's where I stand on pickleball. Well, it seems like some people take it a little too seriously. So that's another thing for your argument. Plus indoor fighting. Jesus with rackets. All right, Rossello, you're doing your podcast Tuesday. Apparently for your plus indoor fighting Jesus with rackets. Uh, alright, Rossello you're doing your podcast Tuesday. I'm doing something Tuesday night.

If you had to pick a, which series ends sooner right now, we're doing this for Indiana and New York. You think okay. See five still. I feel like there are more problems that are unsolvable for Minnesota in that series than I do for New York Pacers. But I also say that knowing I thought Minnesota would be more competitive in one of those two games. I guess you could say they're competitive for quarters one, two, and four. In both of them, when you look at the halftime stuff, like, hey, they're sort of in it. I just look at OKC as being that much better than everybody because of that defense.

I did two Indiana bets before the series, for the series. I did two bets in the OKC Minnesota series. I bet the over five and a half games and I bet OKC to win win parlayed with, uh, Indiana. Those are my two. I thought it was going to go six games. Minnesota wasn't feeling too good about that after game two, but. Five or six. We'll see.

All right. Rossello enjoy your Memorial day weekend. Thanks for popping on with us. All right. Thank you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rossello and Gahal and Eduardo.

Don't forget new rewatchable is coming Monday night. Heaven can wait. And I will have a new podcast on Tuesday. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. See you then. It must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and president DC gambling problem call 100 gambler visit RG dash help.com call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPENY in New York.