The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Spurs Fumble, CarusoMania, Brunson’s Mega-Rise and a Knicks Appreciation With Tim Legler and Brian Koppelman

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Tim Legler LIVE on Netflix to react to the Thunder taking a 3-2 series lead against the Spurs before recapping the Knicks’ road to the NBA Finals (1:16). Then, Brian Koppelman hops on to discuss what it means for the Knicks to make the Finals for the first time since 1999 after sweeping the Cavs (01:09:22). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Tim Legler and Brian Koppelman Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Uber Eats makes last-minute gifting easy. https://www.ubereats.com/ The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Download the Fandulau. Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Game problem called 100 Gambor call 8887-7-77 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, the Bill Simmons podcast. We are live after game five. Our friend Tim Legler is here.

Kind of a ghostly massage here for him. It's like, yeah, definitely, man. It's my queen album. them cover look. I like it. Well, matching the weirdness, weirdness we just had. I think it's kind of fitting because it feels like, I don't know if the spurs can beat OKC, too,

and we have a lot to discuss. I wanted to mention I have a new rewatchable's coming. That came out on Monday. We did Animal House. You must love Animal House. That must have been one of years from way back when. But you can catch that. And you can hear legs. What's the name of your podcast? The All Things Podcast? All City.

All City. All City podcast. I'm blanking. Yeah, yeah. And of course, you can see legs on the finals, which are coming up. All right, game five, here's my big takeaway. Just a missed opportunity for the Spurs. Oh, yeah. I felt like, you know, it's 2-2.

A.J. Mitchell gets scrapped. Jalen Williams gets scratched pretty much like an hour before the game, although I feel like we were expecting a little bit. And then SGA comes out and was really bad for the first six minutes of the game. He said after the game, he said that was like the worst first quarter who's had. in his career. He's probably exaggerating. And the Spurs, I just never really felt the urgency. They showed that that one halftime speech when it was like 87, 71, whatever was,

they're down 16. And Wembe's got the guys around. And then they came out and played with some passion for, I don't know, four minutes. But I don't know, man, did they think this was a 19 game series? What's going on with them? Here's what I think. A couple of things. I think, first of all, you're right about the opportunity. You know, listen, you've got to win another. game there to win the series, right?

And so you look at this situation, you don't have Jailer Williams, you don't have A.J. Mitchell. It's like their first game they're going to get them like kind of like, wow, you know, this is a lot of pressure on us here because if we don't win this game, we're going to have to go to San Antonio with the prospect of being closed out. It's an awful lot of pressure on the home team in a two-two situation and you're missing a couple of guys. So some guys are going to have to step up.

So you would think like San Antonio's approach should be like, this is. a game, not only that we can get, we have to get. That's kind of how I think their approach should have been going in. They probably felt that way. They just didn't play well enough in this situation to get it done. And I think one of the things that jumps out right away is you look at Victor Wembe and Yama and a lot was being talked about like during the game that, you know, he's kind of quiet, passive, didn't get a lot of shots, didn't get a lot of touches where he wants it. He had some free throws so his numbers weren't like horrific early. But the thing that I I'm thinking about while I'm watching that bill is this.

When you look at the other top guys in his league, just go with like the all NBA team if you want to. And even guys on the second team, like those are guys because of the nature of their game, like physically, you know, their dimensions, they can get theirs when they want to get theirs a lot of times. That's not always the case for Victor Webb and Yam. It's not going to be.

He's seven foot, you know, four, five, whatever you want to call it. He's slightly built. seven, six, seven. Whatever you want to call it. Yeah, they say, every time I hear a game with Victoruma on it, they say as they say his height differently. So I don't even know. Let's, I typically go with seven to five,

because that's what it looks like to me. Yeah. He can't just go get it when he wants to because of that. Sometimes it works against him. If he's not catching the ball in ideal spots, if some of their actions aren't designed so he can get a quick roll to the rim from a decent distance, not 28 feet, where he's got to take two, three strides where he can get chipped and bumped along the way.

If he can't find those actions, those spaces, or even some of the early stuff sometimes when he gets some threes going because it's early in transition, he can't just go put it down, use his live dribble, cross guys up, have a counter move off to dribble and get what he wants, go to a fade away jumper or an up and under in the mid range or whatever. it's just harder for him. So there's going to be knights. When that offense isn't just going to be automatic. And most of those guys in this league, when you look at Yokic, you look at Shea, you know,

you look at the Cade Cunningham's of the world, the Jalen Browns of the world, when you look at those guys, like, and look, they're not always going to shoot great, but they can operate in spaces where they can go get a shot for themselves most of the time if they're not blitzed. And it's not that way for Victor Webb. and Yamason is going to be nights when that offense is going to be a little inconsistent. Now he affects the game defensively. He can rebound. He can do all those things.

But there are nights, man, when you need your best player to go get you 30. And he is not going to be able to do that whenever he wants because of the way he's built. And that's kind of one thing I noticed about this game early. The way he was being defended, how hard it was for him to get touches where he wants it. He didn't really get involved in a game offensively. And in a game like this with what's at stake, he kind of needed Victor Webbiania to be a lot better than he was offensively. Yeah, you're talking about the concept of feeling somebody throughout a game, right?

The best players in the league, you just kind of feel them, even if they're not having the best game. They're still around. They're in it. What's weird is they did this in game three. And they made a big deal after in game four, pop came in and yelled at us after. And we had to go back to being us. And we had to, and it's like, I thought you guys learned your lesson already, that if you're

just the three-point shooting team and went. B's 25 feet from the basket that this isn't going to really work. Now, you could also argue they lost the game because they gave up almost 130 points. But I'm with you. Like, OKC, because they were able to capitalize on some of the turnovers and some of the some of the weirdness of the game and were able to patch together some stretches even when SGA wasn't playing well. I just, when I watch it, because I obviously love watching Wembe as, as to you, I just don't

really understand how they use them sometimes. Like when you talk about like how do you get him more involved They were talking on the broadcast about Get him in the paint See see what happens when he's in the paint Is it really that hard to get him near the paint Like you could start him under the basket And have them like drift up

You could have them kind of near the block Trying to back in but they always seem Like they fall in this habit of he's just at the top of the key His three wasn't going tonight I didn't feel like he had his legs tonight either He was 0 for 5 from 3 So for me it's like, are you doing what OKC wants you to do? And the answer is yes. They're really hoping going

into this game that you're going to play this way with him. And that's how played out. I think there are ways to get in the ball. And look, they know this. Mitch Johnson's a great coach. There are ways to get him in the ball. It's sometimes it happens a little bit more organically for them. They mandate it, whatever may be, his determination to get it. I love him personally when he sets ball screens inside of, you know, 23 feet, 22 feet. He sets elbow ball screens. He sets ball screens where he starts at the elbow and sort of heads out toward the sideline, sets it so that when he spins out of it, it's like one stride.

It's easier to come off the screen and just quickly throw it to him as he's first starting to move toward the rim. And then it's very difficult for the rotating defender to do much with it because of where he's catching the ball. If you just think he's going to run down the floor, go into the post area and just kind of put his, hand up and get it where he wants. You can see time and time again, he gets into wrestling matches down there, even against smaller guys. It's not that easy to do. And sometimes, I

think their guards don't give him enough time when he gets a switch. He's got a smaller guy. A lot of guys in this league, like if it's Yokic, let's just use it as an example that obviously wants to touch a ball in the post as well. It's a guy like Yokin. He gets the switch. He goes somewhere

near the lane, and then he just stops, camps out, and uses his weight. and strength and just holds the guy there, puts a hand up, and you can just lead him and he catches everything. You know, Wemiyama's got good hands too, but it's harder for him

to just hold his position and keep that defender at bay that's trying to back into him and they're trying to use their back into his thighs and like dislodge him. Now he can get there, you've got to give him an extra count. And the problem is against OKC,

that means the ball handle needs a little bit more time, the past needs a little bit more. time. The problem is they're being pressured, like hell out there. So they can't just sit there and hold it and wait for Victor to get his position down there. They end up reversing it. And by the time he now looks like he's ready to receive it, the ball's going to the other side of the floor. It's going to the top of the key, then to the other side. And now you're asking an awful lot. Now is he going to flash from one side through traffic, get bumped three times, and go catch it

on the other side of the lane? That's just not his game. That's not his physical profile to play that way. So the quick hitters off the ball screens when he sets the screen closer to the rim and he dies quicker, the ball hits him like right away as he's moving. He can catch it. He can do something really effective with it. And actually, that's where he draws most of his fouls. I didn't see him involved in a lot of actions like that in this game. He was catching it a lot and then turning and facing and trying to figure out what he wanted to do against guys off the dribble. And that's just not going to be there every night for him the way that it is other elite scores. in this league who can get lower,

they can set you up, get into a step-back jumper from wherever they want, they can cross you up, counter, maybe even cross you up, and then go back between their legs the same direction and get like a little pull-up and operate in a one-on-one space.

That's just not going to be there all the time for Victor. And it wasn't really tonight, and they needed more from him. And, you know, at the same time, Oklahoma City was getting really good performances from some guys that had to be big tonight, one of which you had, you know, you had texted me earlier and said,

McKay's got to have a great game. Seven for 19 is not a great night, but it was very impactful. Yeah, second half. Very impactful. It's, well,

and that's, your younger guys usually at home are going to be a little bit of a safer bet. I wrote down, maybe playoff experience does matter, question marks. So here's the thing with playoff experience, because this was the thing,

this was the thing we always talked about during this season with the Spurs. They're too young. They're not ready yet. Or what does that mean? You think like, you're too young, that means,

Oh, my God, there's so much pressure. I don't know what to do. I've never been here before. It's like almost like how it would be like with a quarterback, like Drake May in the playoffs last year. Ooh. And then, well, we have Dave Jacoby here on the Zoom for some reason, trying to figure out why.

This is exciting. But when I think about playoff experience, sometimes it's just kind of knowing what to do in a game like this, right? He's 22 years old. It's like, hey, they don't have Jalen Williams. They don't have AJ Mitchell. Come out in the first half and have like the game of your life. Have like your ESPN classic game. And that's the you thing. I feel like when he's 27, 20 years old, you just approach this game a little bit differently. But I don't listen. Oh, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, now you're right. I look at the like the Dylan Harper component to this. He's such an X factor because he's so

physically talented. He's a guy that can play through the pressure, the grabbing, holding that you're going to get against these OKC guards, particularly in the postseason. He can play through that stuff. He's just got strong shoulders, forearms. He can

still get to his spots. He's got multiple speeds he plays with. I think he's a little bit more affected when Deerrin Fox is out there. Deereon Fox is running more of the show. It's almost like Dylan Harper is in a different mindset. You know, a game like this, he plays 25 minutes.

He takes five shots from the field. Dylan Harper's too good a player, and he is physically too gifted against this type of defense for him to be some sort of afterthought for them offensively. He needed to be much more aggressive, had the opportunity to be aggressive. He could have made up for some of what Wembe wasn't giving you. Right.

Because not everybody on this team can play through that stuff. Harper can. He can still get where he wants to get on the floor, but he really was sort of quiet and passive. And look, he's a young player on the road in the biggest game of his life. Yeah, that probably factors into it. And some of these guys from the Thunderman have been here before. Their younger players are just a little bit older than some of San Antonio.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I thought like Castle in the first half was like that. Like he was just super sloppy. And I thought it was hurting them. And then in the second half, you could see, he's like, you know, I'm going to put, I'm to get my defense going. I'm going to put my head. I'm going to get to the basket. He actually had a really good second half. Harper did not. And Fox was bad. I don't, I think Foxes hurt.

I don't feel like he had any left. I agree. He's four for 15. He just didn't have that snap. You're trying to play through it, man. And I respect that. I really do. Man, you know, you're not going to sit there. And if you can go, you're not going to sit there and watch other guys play. Like you're, you know, well, they need him. He's the only guy to take care of the ball. Absolutely need him. He's, you know, had the one playoff series under his belt, you know, before this season. in this guy's like, I'm not missing this for anything, but I think you're right. Because he has, he has that next level quickness that gets to from point A to point B and against a team like the Thunder, you really need that because of the way they close down driving lanes. They're so good at helping on the lane, closing out with speed to the three point line.

Like he can match that speed and he doesn't quite seem like he's got all of that. And it is what it is. He's going to play through it. But, you know, 33 minutes, four for 15 from the field. that that's not really typical for Deerard Fox. For a guy that's such a natural score, I agree with you. I don't think he's right.

Not a lot of coast-to-coast stuff with him. No. Either. With all that said, Wemby kind of sucked for him. Fox didn't have lift. Harper didn't really show up. And Champany kind of kept them in the game in the first half.

I kind of liked the shot San Antonio was getting at this game. They missed a lot of corner threes in the first half. second half. I thought there were stretches where I didn't, I didn't love the whistle. They were getting offensively. I thought they did a bunch of dumb stuff defensively and some of the fouls. But, but it was weird. They were hanging around, hanging around. And it was at one point near the end of the third quarter. I think it was eight. And it was like, shit, this is, they're going to steal this game. I've seen this before. Wembe's going to put the superhero cape on in the fourth quarter. But OKC did a really good job. And Hartenstein and

Caruso and then McCain getting hot near the end. But I thought Hartstein and Caruso, if you had to pick the number two MVP for OKC for this series after SGA, obviously, who's the MVP? Who would your number two MVP choice for OKC be? Because mine would

be Caruso. Man, it's tough. Honestly, yeah, you probably would be Caruso. The timeliness of his shooting, what he always gives you in other areas, but the timeliness of his shooting and scoring has been immense in this series. But again, you could hand pick some spots for Hartnstein too.

You go, where would they be without the way he played? Chet has not been anything like overwhelming offensively. Pretty solid. I thought Hartnstein was great in this game. He really was. With his rebounding, his touch, the way he makes you pay with that little push shot, which is, you know, I always refer to as releasing the doves. It's just the strangest looking shot that he has perfected.

And he just, he's letting the, he lets the doves go, like in Central Park somewhere. Like, that's what it looks like. He shot one of those, by the way, over Wimbunyama on the right baseline. That ball must have traveled like eight, nine, ten feet above the square. It was like a moon shot. It was until you think about the actual distance, it was like a 12-foot shot that traveled a greater distance than most NBA three-point shots. Well, the other thing I love with him, he, how high that ball traveled.

Yeah. The other thing I love with him, well, two things. First of all, his fouls are just hard, you feel in fouls that aren't flagrants, but each one is like a foul and a half. The other thing, he gets offensive rebounds, but they always feel like they're these big kind of quarter swinging offensive rebounds. Like he had two in a row that led to, I think two threes. I'm going to say it was like an eight point game. All of a sudden it was a 13 point game just because he kept two possessions alive. So I agree with you.

I said this in a pot of couple of days ago. Like, I thought in game one, I was like, man, they're going to play them off the floor. You're not going to be able to keep them. And now you watch and you go, how are they going to let this guy leave this summer? Because he's got like the $29 million team option. J. Dub's contract pumps up. Holmgren's contract pumps up. They got Lou Dorrit.

They have to figure out, you know, they're going to be in some real tax issues. they haven't shown a huge appetite to pay it. But I don't see how he led at Hartenstein. I don't see how you let him leave. I also think he'd have real value to, I don't know, eight, ten other teams that have cap space or at least the mid-level. Definitely. Because the one thing he totally understands also is,

he is the master at finding that late in the possession, little pocket that he has to get to make himself available when a guard penetrates. And maybe they've already tried a couple of, action, wasn't going. Now a guy just gets downhill and it's like going to be a bad shot that somebody's about to thope at the rim. And then here comes Hartnstein from the baseline and he flashes right into that middle of the lane area. You know, 10, 12 feet, he catches it and he skits that soft shot out. So he bails out some of their possessions. He gives them extra possessions. And he has

six offensive rebounds. I don't think you can tangibly even quantify how many additional offensive rebound opportunities he creates because they've got two guys trying to keep him off the glass. Right, right, right. Other guys, guards then sneak in and run down a long one. That guard should have been there for the opponent. They're not because they're helping chip on Hartenstein because they're tired of watching him get two or three in a row.

So that's a whole other element to like what he brings to it just because of his activity. And I love that your point about the fouls. You don't play through those for and ones against Hartnstein. He's going to hit you in a way. And again, he said it's all legal stuff. He's chopping down. on your arms, biceps, forearms, as guys are trying to get up.

And then you're going to feel it and you're not going to, most importantly, you're not going to play through it for an and one. You're going to have to go earn them. In a lot of cases, maybe your arm is like numb

when you're like going up there to try to shoot. A big welt in your arm. So SGA had 32, 16 for 17 free throws, six turnovers. McCain, 18. Hartstein was 12 and 15.

And Caruso's 22 with six deals and four threes. I have two big picture questions for you. This is the basketball fan, just that after game one, which was an all-time, all-time, all-timer. It was like, wow, buckle up. This is a series for the ages.

Did we fly a little too close to the sun? Because we haven't had a good game since. The series has not been a classic. Game one had all of the everything you'd ever want. And then we've had four kind of, probably never watch any parts of any of these games again. Where are we with this series now? Because I'm watching, well, that'll lead to the big question number two,

but I'm watching this one. Like, I really thought this was going to be the finals, and it doesn't 100% feel that way. So why? Most anticipated game of the entire season, without a doubt with what's at stake in this game. Because what I said earlier, San Antonio, a lot of people believe can win the series,

we're going to win the series. This is your chance. this is your chance. You know, they each split on each other's floor. So now you go, okay, this is what it sets up. This game five, you get it, you get that last home opportunity to close out the defending champion. This is what we grew up with, these awesome game fives.

This is it. This is like the one that shows on NBA TV for 20 years. Game five is the one. And I agree with you. I mean, obviously, what all you really want as a fan, when you sit down to watch it as a broadcaster, if I'm calling the game, just give me some drum.

I'm a late. That's all you really ask for, man. So somebody that has to really rise up and show a lot of nerve to knock down a big shot, like some great defensive play. That's all you're asking for, man. That inside of a minute game could go either way type of feel to it. And no, you haven't really had. He had that incredible first game. It was the greatest games any of us have ever seen in the playoffs. And you're thinking, as we all were, oh, man, we're going to get like five or six more of those, it's going to be incredible.

And it's, I guess that was too hard to live up to, man. But look, it might have taken something out of both teams. Like, we've had a bunch of injuries since that game and a bunch of guys that don't look like they're 100% anymore. Yeah. Well, hey, listen, at least it certainly beat what, you know, we were calling

in the Eastern Conference finals with what went on. We certainly got that same drama in game one of that series. Yeah, you did. With what the Knicks had to do, 22 point deficit in less than eight minutes. And Brunson just put on a all-time show and then, you know, goes overtime, Nick's win, and then the rest is history. You know, particularly how those last two ended in Cleveland.

So at least, you know, these games, even though, like Oklahoma City got up 10, 12, 15, 18, whatever it was, you're still sitting there going, there's enough time. Spurs are good enough. Like the way the game was kind of going, you like Spurs could make an 8-0 run here, 10-0 run. This could still get to a six-point game with five minutes to go. And they just, you know, in both cases, throughout the series haven't been able to make that run

that really made the other team feel it outside of game one really feel it that they were going to chase you down and you're going to have to really earn this late in the game. So, yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess from a fan's perspective, hasn't lived up to it. I don't think anybody in Oklahoma City is bitching about that right now. They're up three, two, and that's fine with them, man.

They don't need to have the drama that we're describing if they can end up winning this in six or seven games. Well, that leads to question number two. we headed into the series thinking this was the NBA finals. The Knicks are just playing better than both of these teams. Yeah. It's just a fact. Now, you could say it's the schedule they played,

but it's really hard. I think you were there, too, the 2014 finals, Spurs Miami, and the Spurs just hit that level where they just put, we're playing so beautifully together. I remember being on TV back then being like, I think the series, like in game four, like I think this is over.

I think the spurs I've kind of solved Miami and I think they've gone to another level and it was just the selflessness and everything we were watching which you just watched for four games and if I'm them I feel like I can beat either of these teams now

now we don't know if O'KC if J-Dub comes back and Mitchell and they have a full healthy team and they're going to have all these dudes to throw up Brunson and try to wear him down and guard him 94 feet. I get there's some matchup stuff but just holistically if I'm the Knicks I'm like

we're in a heater. These teams are just going to beat the crap out of each other. And something magical is happening. We can actually win the finals, which I don't think anyone other than them would have thought two weeks ago, right? I mean, I go back. Two weeks ago, I probably be thinking about it. They haven't lost a game in a month in the playoffs.

So I think once they got into that Philly series and started hitting their stride and this was looking this way every night offensive league, somewhere in the Philly series it started looking like, okay, damn, the Knicks, man, like, they've really, like, closed that gap with the West because at one point, I don't know how long ago you'd have to go back, let's say, for me, probably, you know, March, early April, where you're going, it's a foregone conclusion. Whoever wins the West is the NBA champion. And at that time, there was even a time when Denver was even still kind of included in that,

right? But it was really, we were mainly talking about the top two teams. And here's what I'll tell you. That narrative is now completely changed because. of the way the Knicks are playing. Now I'm not sitting here predicting the Knicks will win. What I'm saying is now you've got a series with whoever they play. That's the kind of basketball that they're playing because it was going to take something

that was going to be almost mind-blowing offensively to think that anybody coming out of the East was going to be able to operate the way you need to to actually win a series against those two defenses. And that's what the Knicks have reached. it's literally a level of offensive basketball as you sit there, it's so overwhelming for their opponents. You can't really even believe that you're deep into the NBA playoffs. And this is happening.

And it was the switch was flipped in the middle of the Atlanta series. They haven't lost a game since 11 straight. Saw some really interesting stat. I kind of had some people dig up for me because I was really curious. I'm looking at this team and I'm going, when have you had five starters at the same time playing this well in rhythm? So I looked at their field goal percentage as a group, the five starters, 53% as a group, okay?

So I went and I said, well, who else has done that? You know how far you have to go back? The only three group of starters that were this deep into the postseason that had a higher field goal percentage collectively amongst starters than the next team this year were the 84, 85, and 86 Lakers. Jesus, and they were layups and dunks half the time. That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I said.

It's magic. It's Kareem. It's worthy. Yeah. Like, this is the team. And they did it three years in a row a little bit, a notch above that. And then the Knicks. 53% for your start as a group.

And it's like, it's, I mean, what bridge is finally cooled off. I mean, I was like, okay. You know, because the numbers were getting so ridiculous. At one point, he was 67 for his last 97. from the field. And a guy that shoots mostly jumpers. It gets a little bit of slashing stuff. A couple of layups in transition,

but a lot of it is pull-up jumpers. A couple of three is a game. It doesn't go to line ever to get rhythm. So, and he's shooting, he's like 67 for his last 90s. At one point, he was 72% in an 11-game stretch. Landry's shamit comes off the bench. What does he do? Let's just go 11 for 12 from the three.

It's been 12 teams. Yeah, it was fun. We had a funny back in Ford, Richard Jefferson, said, the broadcast said, he's like, you know, man, one guy that's made himself so money is Landry, sham it. I said, is 92% for a three point like us that are good in the conference finals? I don't know. So even that stuff. But it's the starters.

That's really what we're talking about here. The flow that they have, the way they're sharing the ball, you know what that does, Bill? For me, it means this. You can win on the road now because balance travels, defense travels. Their defense is playing almost as well as their offense, but their offense. has a lot to do with that because it's been so good. You're taking the ball at the net all the time. Their defense is going to be better.

But it's the balance. Balance travels. You don't need it from one guy on any given night. Guys are picking each other up. And it's just this machine-like performance offensively does now thrust them into the conversation of, yes, yes, it's possible. The Knicks could be the champions when this is all said and done. Certainly, they're worthy of going toe to toe with whoever they face in the NBA finals.

And I don't think anybody thought that going into the postseason. there was a worthy challenger to those teams. Well, they have a couple things you want, right? So they have a star who can go toe to toe in the last five minutes of a game. They can come from behind. They don't necessarily, they're a little like OKC in the sense that they can kind of survive a bad game from anybody in their top six and somebody else will pick up the slack. They're getting all these fast break points that I'm not sure that's going to translate into

into playing OKC or San Antonio, probably not the same as when like James Harden and some of the calves are out there. But, you know, I think about like, I thought the best two teams I saw this century and it's not even close where the, were the 17 Warriors and the 01 Lakers.

I just thought levitated above everybody. But both of those teams legitimately could have gone undefeated. And then we've seen teams that went on heaters as the playoffs went along, right? The Nuggets hit a point in 23 where it was like, Jesus, oh, it's happening for these guys. There's the Spurs 2014 is another great example. And then the 11 Mavs were these teams, 7, 8 guys, and they just, you can kind of see them figuring out in real time.

The interesting piece with the Knicks is the math is on their side too. Like, they're like, what are they plus 20 now, net rating for the playoffs? I remember doing this before the Dallas Celtics series. Like at some point, the math is the math. If somebody's just killing everybody for a month, you have to take that seriously. And I don't think the East was that bad either. You know, that Cavs team, I thought was a pretty tough, well-rounded team. The Knicks were better than them.

But they, by the end of that series, they were tapping out like a UFC fighter, you know? And I don't know. I just, I think the Knicks can beat either of these teams. I really do. I would not have said that even 10 days ago, but I wouldn't have them favored. But to me, it's like 50-50. Yeah, Bill, I think it would be honestly foolish for any person to say that they couldn't at this point.

I mean, and I understand you can talk about the path and who they played. And I mean, I think also there was some things in the Western Conference that the path was a little bit easier than we thought it was going to be for these teams. True. But listen, you look at the Knicks, there's no doubt. I mean, you know, Atlanta gave them their biggest test.

Philly was, you know, dealing with the Embed stuff, banged up. They were not right, not themselves. It still doesn't explain what the NICs did to them. It doesn't explain in this series what the Knicks did to them. Now, look, I don't think Cavs, the way the Knicks are playing, the Cavs aren't winning that series regardless of what happening in Game 1. You're not recovering from that. You're not recovering from that against this team the way they were playing because that, so this team comes into that game. They're already

on like hyperdrive offensively. And now, okay, man, this is a tough spot. You put them in. So what do they do? They go have a 44 to 11 run that actually kicked their overall hyperdrive into another level for the rest of the series. So because they had to find it like in that moment. I look and I don't have those all that's in front of me. Now I had it before the game notes going into game four the other night when they swept. But it was like number one in all the playoff teams in fast break points per game. Number one in three points shooting percentage overall.

Number one in field goal percentage. There were one or two offense. I think one two offensive rating, one defense rating, in phrase versa. They kept flipping it back and forth every time they play a game. But top two, either way, on both ends of the floor, they were dominating points in the paint. They were number one and second chance points. Like, every way you can get it offensively, they're getting it.

And it's even more than that, even more than the number, just sitting there watching them, the connection between each other. It's special. It's something special that they've got going on right now. They have lost two games in the postseason in which C.J. McCollum hit a last second shot to beat him by one. point. Right. Or this team is very,

very possibly could be 12 and 0. Instead, they're 12 and 2 because of C.J. McCollum playing great at the beginning of Atlanta series. But once they figured out how they wanted to play, they haven't looked back. And it's another long layoff for them, you know,

going to be incredibly fresh when the final start. If this thing ends up going 7, these teams are going to get Sunday, Monday Tuesday, three days off. Nicks are sitting there again for close to a week and a half. Exactly. They're sitting there.

waiting. Now the difference is in this last series, they were waiting and then you had to come into the garden. Philly, coming off of their seven game series, the Boston, had to come into the garden right away. That'll not be the case. And this time, the NICs are going on the road one way

or another. So it's going to be a little bit different environment for that game one where you set the tone. But regardless, I think it'd be foolish for any person to watch the NICs right now and not say that they absolutely could envision them being NBA champions when this is all said and done. the two McCollum shots reminiscent of the 0-1 Lakers would have gone undefeated,

if not for the OT game that I ever sent the stepover game, right? Right. And then the 2017 Warriors won their first 15, had a chance to go 16 and 0. That was KD's first year. And that team was incredible. And that game four in Cleveland was just atrocious, officiating game. And just a weird game where you just, everything felt wrong about it.

But they really had it 16 and 0. And, you know, nobody's done that. And then I look at the next and it's like, yeah, they're like two C.J. McCollum shots away from being 12 and 0 right now, which is a whole other level of everything. So you mentioned this earlier, but I think it's important because I haven't gotten to see it in person and you're sitting there courtside watching it. Did they, they've passed all the eye test chemistry. They have the secret unselfishness, guys pulling for each other. It seems like they check every one of those boxes. What did you see as you were sitting there?

100% they do with the chemistry. What's being said to each other in whatever moments of adversity you've had within a game or if they're not playing as well as they want to, the leadership that's coming in the huddles, the way that guys are respecting each other if they've got a voice for what they want to do. But the most impressive thing about it is I'd watch this team now. I don't know. So we did two of the Philly, New York games. We did obviously all four of the Cleveland games. So that's six. We did one of the Atlanta game. We did the game in Atlanta when they went up 61 points. So that was pretty impressive. But so we called that game. So I've seen them now seven times, I think, in the postseason. And here's what I tell you. They are not ever missing the next pass that's supposed to be made. It's made every time. Every time I call a game, I mean, it's like every third trip up the floor. I'm thinking of myself

just the way my mind works, a ball should have gone here. That should have been reversed. That guy's open. The ball needs to go there because it would have led to this. That roller needs to be hit on the short pocket.

I don't say that at all with the Knicks. Every single time it goes, we're supposed to know, a lot of that is they're playing with this surge up the floor. And you can see what it did to the calves. The calves literally just stopped running. They're just like, this is just,

it was a run with these guys. I mean, it really was. You know, do you think about it. Bill, they had, what was it, 25 fast break points at a half? Yeah. In a half, the record for a playoff game is 38. They had 30 at the end of the third quarter. They could have had 35 if they wanted to keep running.

They could have 45 if they ran the entire game for whatever reason. But obviously, you're not going to do that in a game like that. So they didn't get to the record. But like, it's obviously that was a lot about the calves. It's just a lack of commitment, man, to turn and sprint, run back match up. and they just knew they were overwhelmed and it is what it is. But it's not just them that they did it to. They did the same thing.

At the end of the Atlanta series, they did the same thing to the Sixers. They broke three teams in a row. They really did. I mean, and yet that's the thing you're watching happen right before your eyes. You're seeing the competitive will be taken away with what they're doing. Now, the most shocking one for me by far was the Atlanta series, because that is a 3-2 series very much up in there.

And Atlanta's at home for a game six. You're like, okay, you know, we might get a seventh game out of this right away in the first round. Of course, there's a lot of tension still about the Knicks, and they were down 2-1 at one point. And they were up 45 points in the first half. 40 in the first half. And so you're like, okay, this team has, they've got waves that they're hitting you with where every single read is perfect. every cut is with intent. Everything they're doing right now is like literally,

like if you're any coach at any level, man, this is what you want your team to look like offensively because they're just doing everything on point, on time for each other. And then at the end of it, which you never know if you're going to get, they're finishing it with shot making. Like that's the one thing.

You can play beautiful basketball and not shoot well. They're doing that too every single game. And that's just what it looks like. And their defense has been just swarming because, again, teams have let go with a rope because they're getting just smashed. And so now they get careless with the ball as well. And it looks like this, you know, piranha tank. And they're just grabbing the ball and going. And it's amazing how fast these games are just turning into an inferno for the other team where it's like not winnable in a period of six minutes.

That's what they've been doing game after game. And that's like been the most impressive thing of all. Well, and they have an incredible crowd. And then on the road, they're now traveling like Red Sox style with, it felt like it was half the fans of that Cavs game. What was the crowd like in game one? Because it felt like ESPN almost had to lower the crowd mics just so we could hear the announcers. There were some fan videos that came from that game where it was like 10 out of 10 deafening. Because I've been in situations like that with those cans on where the crowd is coming through the

hands and you almost can't even hear anything. How loud was it? We're doing the open on the court. You know, myself, Mike Breen, Richard Jefferson, about to do the open and we're standing shoulder to shoulder. And I was having a difficult time hearing Mike Breen. So, you know, fortunately, I kind of knew the question. So I just watched his lips. And when he stopped moving his lips, I started talking, you know, because I kind of knew what the question was. But yeah, it was on that level. And then it got real nervous in there. The Bruns and the game one, yeah. Cavs took it to him and it was like nervous energy.

And it didn't, at one point, it didn't feel necessarily like the garden in a playoff game. They were waiting for a run that never came until it happened in that stretch when they, you know, he just kept getting one-on-one against Hardin over and over. And it took six incredibly difficult shots that he got. Well, I'd say four incredibly difficult, two, like sort of tough, four really tough shots. And they were determined, were staying home with three. point shooters, let this guy go. After six in a row, the lead's been cut in half, and there's enough time to win the game. Now they started making decisions. Oh, do we run a guy out of halfway at

them? What do we do? The rotations weren't good, and it shaman hits threes. Bridges hit a couple threes, and the rest is history. But there was a lot of nervousness in there. But I'll tell you this, though, Bill, we'll say this. When Brunson started making those shots, you're still down, like 18, 16, 14. It felt to me like that crowd knew. Right now, right now. they were going to win that game. Right. Because of the history with the guy. They watched them do it 20 times.

We just needed this. We would waiting, hanging on the edge of us, we were so loud early. And then, man, they jumped us in the third quarter. And it's like, wow, are we going to lose this game? It was a little bit of that in the third quarter. They were just waiting. Give us one like 8-0 run. And we're going to be fine.

And that's what he did. You know what's funny about that? And let him believe it again. Brady was like that. got to that point as a QB where you could be down the whole game and, you know, they go for it on fourth and won the other team and screw

it up and be like, you're giving us the ball back? Oh my God, Brady's closing. You just kind of knew. I know. I know. And it feels like the Knicks are like, wow, you're letting us hang around? Brunson's going to do you realize what's about to happen? Because he's at that point. What do we do with him? There's

been very few little guards like this in the history of the league who have been able to be the guy on the team that took a team to the finals. He's never been considered a top five or six guy in the league. He made second team Omba this time around. I think we all thought incredible clutch player, could you win four straight playoff rounds of them? Probably not. And now he's kind of knocking on the door of like that top four, top five in the league just because of what's happening. Can you think of another player in your career playing in the league, announcing?

talking about it. Is there another player that you can think of who's been like him? There's not a comparison for him for this reason. Other guys that have been smaller type guards

that are your team's highest volume shot taker leading scorer. That's a hard way to go about it. If you got a guy that's under 6-6 even, that's like your point guard-ish

that takes most of the shots and like... Yeah. Okay, there's hasn't been and here's why he's different than those other guys. Most of those other guys lightning quick, right? And so they played a certain way that you're like, okay, you can see

how you can get escapability. He doesn't have that. Now, he's got a, he's got a shiftyness that he can shake you and get by you because he's got to set you up. But you think about it, and I think it's a great, great lesson for young players. If you're not necessarily the most athletic, because I would call his game a grounded game, he's got a grounded offensive game. If you're kind of one of those guys that's got that. So here's what you have, have to master. Footwork balance gets strong, get in the weight room, footwork balance, strength, and then the last component that you can't teach that he has is a certainty of in himself of what the result is going to be. I think Jalen Brunson is more certain in, especially in

big spots when he goes up to release the basketball than any player in this league. He is the most certain of where that ball's going to end up. And that is incredible because he's not going to shake you entirely. He's not blowing by you and getting it to the glass before anybody can react. He's not getting to an area in the floor and elevating 38, 40 inches for a mid-range pull-up or a lean-back. He's not doing that. He's a grounded offensive player that you still can't stop because he uses his strength, footwork, balance, IQ.

and at the end of it, he's so sure of himself. Yeah. It's, that's really, to me, the final component sets apart. He is one of those rare players that, like, the brighter the lights, that's, that's what he's kind of been built for his entire life. This is what he knows. And so he was the perfect player that the Knicks acquired at the time. We weren't sure.

Is this the perfect player that they just acquired? Because you didn't really know. It wasn't his team yet when he left Dallas. Now it was his team. And you're like, okay, let's see what this looks like. And, man, this is what it looks like. And the guys, by the way, he shoots 46% are up, I think, every single year. So he's a smaller guard that's way more efficient than most guys his size have ever been in this league.

There's the sustainability with how he does it because this has been four years now and it feels like he's just getting slightly better each year. Because like the one great Isaiah Thomas season with the Celtics, the second Isaiah Thomas, when he had 29 a game, he was an MVP candidate. They made the, I think they made the conference finals. But you're watching it like, man, he's going to get hurt. He's just flying to the basket, right? And he's like this little guy going against these big dudes. And over and over again felt like he was flying in the basket support. I always felt watching it like, there's like a shelf life with this.

I don't see how you can keep playing this way. Brunson almost moves more like Yokic, where it's like, I feel like he can do this for 10 years. This is all like footwork and confidence and no-house. So when I think about the guys, there's nobody to compare him to, but he's got pieces of different great guys from over the years, right? Like Isaiah was the toughest guy in that Pistons team, right? That was the bad boy Pistons. He was the toughest guy.

But also, like, in the end of games, he knew he could take over and score. I don't remember seeing Oscar Robertson. I was too young. But they always talked about the way he controlled the pace of a game and just slowly painstakingly got to his spots. And that's what made him special. So there's guys. But to watch a six-foot-one guy who can control a game with his footwork, basically,

who's the toughest guy on his team. And then you hear Mike Brown say this week that Duncan and Curry are the only two people he's ever seen as leaders like that. And those are the two best leaders of the past 35 years in the league that everybody talks about. Like if you have this guy, you have a culture the entire time you're there. So you have that, too. It's just, it's an all-time signing.

It's one of the great free agent signings in the history of the week. I mean, they're talking, listen, I mean, there's a lot of people now in New York, and you see it all the time online or conversations or podcasts, whatever, the topic comes up, greatest nicks of all time. He's played himself in that a conversation to the point where if he wins this, he's able to win this, and he puts up the kind of typical Jalen Brunson numbers in an NBA final. And this guy averages like 30 or something in an NBA finals, and they upset San Antonio or Oklahoma City, which I mean, it's as big of an upset now as it would have been.

but I'm saying, these are both teams that won north of 60, right? And he's able to pull that off and also doesn't have home court advantage of doing that. And he goes in and he, you know, shoots 50% from the field and averages 30. And they win a title. I can't even, I don't even know. With 53 years of baggage? That's what I'm saying. Where does you shoot historically if that happens?

It's been 53 years, you know, 27 since they just got to the finals. You know, so he's a special player man. they got the right guys around him. Give Leon Rose in that group a lot of credit, man, for what they did and the pieces that they went out and got. Even a guy like Bridges, he gave up a lot for it. He was getting beat up at times this year. And certainly in Atlanta series,

you know, the game before this whole streak started, remember, he had no points in four turnovers in game five of that series. I'm sorry, he gave three of that series. They go down to one. Right. And it's completely turned around for him. So even he has figured out where to go on the court. That's the best for him, which it felt like that took two years.

And here's why that subtle change he made to their offense with Kat. And look, his assist number spiked in Atlanta series. They're not having quite as high since. There's no doubt he's touching the ball more. His shots are down. His scoring is down. It's interesting. But he feels way more important because he's touching the ball 25, 30 more times a game.

And so what that has done from a bridge's standpoint is he's really, good at weak side, like getting a little brush screen and then curling and slashing through the lane and catching some of these passes from towns. Or doing that, continued run to the other side, and then he's that guy that will catch the ball and immediately catch it, put it down for one dribble for 18-foot pull-up. His natural motion now within the spacing they have is so much more suited to him than standing around waiting and watching high ball screen 45 times a game and hoping. but it's going to come your way.

That's not the kind of player he is. He's the kind of player now. He's moving the entire game. And that's what their offense looks like now. Without a lot of play calls, by the way, it's just spacing and putting guys in the right spot at the start and then make reads. And it's really suited his game. So it's not a coincidence that all Sony started shooting well,

not well is an understatement of the century, that he's doing this. It's because its offense now is much more suited to his skill set. And so he looks comfortable and confident. O.G.'s been great. for them, obviously. Kat, you know, Josh Hart is like probably the heart and soul

of what they do with what he gives up every night to try to win. It's been awesome to watch a man. They're just, they're just absolutely on fire. And that's the biggest question, whoever they get in the finals, what are you going to do

to slow this machine down? Because that's what they've turned into offensively their machine. I still don't completely understand the cat piece of it. Just because he was in the 2015 draft. He's not like a 27-year-old player at this point.

He's been in the league for his 11th or 12th season. And it was like, this is just who he is. He's going to get dumb fouls. There's going to be games when it's just going to, he's going to seem upset that he's not touching the ball enough. He's going to get beaten on the glass every once in a while. He's going to be defensive. He hasn't been any of those things.

He's been like additive. He's like, you know, he'll go six for nine, get 13 rebounds, maybe two turnovers. also have one dumb fouly chaff, but this is the most I've enjoyed watching him. And it's like basically because he's been relegated into being this awesome supporting guy, which maybe should have been his destiny all along. Well, I think what he's done is transform himself by the way he's playing into. Now you look at him and he go, that's a winning player.

That's a guy you can win with as your center. And so you didn't know exactly what he was. He had a lot of talent and he was kind of multi-dimensional, a big dude that could play some power basketball, but really can shoot it. but you didn't know. Here's what, I think, the greatest testament to what I just said about how he's labeled now. This season, all year, man, like, every time we saw the Knicks, saw Mike Brown, like, we were asking for the game because Kat was the number one topic of conversation in New York surrounding the Knicks because it was like up and down offensively.

Sometimes it didn't seem very included. Sometimes it was less like, man, he doesn't really fit. He doesn't seem like he's even happy, like in this offense, like running this offense. He didn't seem happy. They changed it. They changed it mid-season and then really changed it in the playoffs. Here's what I wanted to say about him. Despite all of that bill, every night the guy rebounded.

It was like death taxes and 13 rebounds from Carl Anthony Towns. And so that helped them continue to win. It's how you end possessions by securing the defensive glass. So that was there every night. And this guy is not a guy that's like gobbling up soft rebounds. He's not getting six a game off Miss Free throw. He gets physical, tough rebounds in traffic where he used his body. And he has been this physical presence for them in that starting line up defensively.

Even on the nights when he only gets eight, nine shots. And that's changed, I think, the way a lot of people maybe have viewed him. This guy is now like a great fit for what they're doing. And I just love those kind of stories because he's a great person. Like he's way he carries so he's raised well. Like he's polite. He's just a good dude. And he was like, he had a lot of talent.

You were kind of just wondering, what is his ultimate label in this league? And I think this is like now the perfect situation for him to be appreciated and admired for like what he is capable of doing. And he's been just a bigger part of this. But the good thing is they don't have to get it from any one of these dudes on any given night because they're all doing it. So it could one guy, one guy can have it off night. It's okay. Everybody else right now is in such rhythm. It doesn't matter.

Well, the other thing about when you talk about the appreciation, that's the other thing at stake for these guys. And, yeah, I haven't heard, I've said everybody's been talking about the NICS for the last couple of days, but you win the title. You can see it with the guys who didn't win the title, who didn't even like really make the playoffs that are still invited to these games and are part of the past with the Nix. Guys like, Stefan Marlborough, I don't think he won a playoff series.

You know, Ewing obviously made the finals, Starks did. but if these guys win, towns could be strolling back in there 35 years from now. It could be 70 years old. There's no, there's a standing ovation. Like, that's what's, that's some of the stuff that's at stake here.

I mean, you kidding me? They're at the place now where like, Jose Alvarado would get that treatment if they win this because he's so popular there with like his energy and like what he does. So, and I, by the way, to your point, I don't, I've never seen that many former players showing up at games at the same time, ever in this league.

That's just not. Yeah, not even the Celtics have that many. Yeah, how did he have 15 guys there the other night from like different eras and stuff? It's really cool, man. They're all kind of vibeing on this and the city is obviously just so electric right now. I don't know what that city is going to look like

if they actually pull this off and win it. I don't know how you're getting out of the arena. I don't know. Brain fortunately knows all the tunnels and stuff. So you can like, you know, get out of there if you have to after the game. Although he'll probably stay there and be, you know, back there, you know, because he's a look, the guy's a Nick fan.

You know, he's a most unbiased broadcaster I've ever seen when he calls Knicks games. He's every bit as enthusiastic for the other team and whatnot, but he calls Nick's games. He's a lifelong Nick fan. Everybody knows that. And, you know, here he is with an opportunity he's going to be calling his first finals as the lead play-by-play guy with the Knicks in the finals.

So it's kind of an interesting dynamic to it as well. But he's obviously the best in the business. I'm lucky to be sitting next to him. Yeah, he's been a Knicks fan since age seven. But I think you geek out. The Knicks fan side of you geeks out before and after the games, right? You're doing the game. You're just doing your job.

It's almost like you're an airplane. You're an airplane pilot. You're just moving out of the levers. He's setting you guys up. You're just lost in the game. But I'm sure there's got to be moments when he's just like, holy shit. It's the fucking finals. We made it.

I'm here. We actually have a chance to win. Jesus. What's crazy is for all Knicks fans, think there's like how quickly they just dispatched of the conference. Yeah. Like that's the thing that you're going into this, you're going into this year, the three seed.

So you're, you know, but you think you got a chance. You're like, okay, you know, Detroit, unproven. They got some offensive issues. The Boston's missing. Got taken him back late, but like they're not quite the same. We're a three seed, but we have a real chance. And then what happens? The one and two get taken out for you.

So you don't even deal with the one and the two. And now you find yourself with home court advantage. And you lose Indiana, who's your. nemesis. They're not even in there to begin with. They're gone. They're dealing with stuff. So, so, so like, and now you go, okay, going into the playoffs, I'm sure Nick fans were thinking like hopeful, but, but nervous.

Like, you would be. Like, we don't know exactly how it's going to go to, to like completely dismantling the Eastern Conference. Like, just such clockwork. The first round knockouts, night after night. And here they are sitting there with all this time off, waiting to play whoever's coming out of the West. You know, sometimes

that's just how it goes. I even feel like 2004 Celtics two years ago. I don't know if they would have beaten Denver, but we never found out because Denver never made it. And the way it just lined up was like perfect for them. Sometimes that's what happens. You know, like Milwaukee in 2021,

where the Nets just fall apart as that serious happens. Phoenix somehow ends up in the finals. Davis gets hurt and then just a couple things, a couple of things go your way. And that's what happens when it's a year. The NICs have been healthy. they jelled at the perfect time and it feels like

such the match goes happening. That's really the key to it. It's so rare it's so rare for a team to hit perfect rhythm. Their absolute peak and beyond probably any reasonable expectations for what their peak was. They actually smashed through

what their ceiling was. At this time of the year, at exactly the right time that you have to have it and to do it now and then sustain it. Series after series with, you know, one more series to go. We'll see how it goes, but they got some work to do left in the West. Well, you get to call the games.

Hopefully you'll finally get a good series. Talk about getting boned over with drama and a playoffs. Did you, did you call one good game? So you guys are like 0 for seven. I think it's Richard's fault. I don't think you should take the blame. I think it's Richard's fault. We did the Nick comeback game against Cleveland.

Oh, that was a good. Okay, so you're one for seven. Yeah, because we called the whole conference final. So we did that game. Yeah, yeah, I forgot. So you got a one good one. I'm trying to think. We did a game, a Philly Boston game, when Embed came back and they beat Boston,

and Abed was great in the second half. Was that game five? Game five, yeah. Game five. That wasn't a huge fan of all. That was a good game, at least. It was some drama to that. I'm trying to think.

Maybe it was one more, but no, for the most part. Well, the Brunson game was awesome. So you at least had one good one. Do you? I mean, you just, you know, it was the greatest, greatest comeback to other than the circumstances in the history of league.

So yeah, that was, that was like, we still, actually the next morning, I was in the hotel room in New York and I was still, I was still kind of really processing what I just watched. Yeah. Because of how big they were down with that amount of time to play. And what Brunson did, you know, and the beginning of that run,

take a look at the first two or three shots he hit. They're incredibly difficult shots. He had one off the backboard that I have no idea how it didn't go flying off the backboard. Yeah, I was like, how did he even have touch on that? The ball hit the white stripe on the top. On the very top. From the right off the right lane. And he's shooting it this way.

Exactly. I just don't know how that went in. Yeah, I remember I remember that, then that happened live. And then I got to do the replay on that particular shot. And now as I'm talking, it's super slow-mo. high-deaf. And so you're watching this ball. And I'm like, it just kept going up and up.

Because the first time you saw it live, I wasn't exactly sure where it hit. I know it was up there. And they see the replayed and hit the white stripe on the top of the backboard from that angle and went straight through. That's when you're like, are you kidding with? Still, they're down like 18 when he hit that. And you're like, okay, that's what it took to get down 18.

How are you going to finish this off? So it's just been unreal. Quickly on Cleveland. Yeah. They announced that Atkinson and the front office is coming back today. They're set up now for a LeBron comeback that I don't think will happen, but at least on paper, it could be discussed. They have to get into a luxury tax.

Whatever team we just watched is not a team that's going to win four straight playoff rounds. They're going to have to figure out how do we pay less money? How do we shift stuff? They're stuck with Hardin now because they obviously made some wink, wink, come to us, we'll blow up the last year a deal, we'll give you a shorter deal to save some money. What's the move?

If you had to pick Mowgli, Allen, or Mitchell as the move for them to reset the team and maybe try to shed some money and move the roster in a different direction. Who is the guy you would look at? The guy would look at to move or to keep? To move. If you had to get rid of one, who makes the least sense for them? Or would you cut ties with Mitchell at this point? Like, what would you do?

I don't think I would cut ties and Mitchell, no, I still think when you have a guy like that and even in this series he, first of all, I don't think he was right. I think he had something going on with his groin.

He was limping a little bit. You guys were talking about that a bunch. He didn't have the lift sometimes. I don't think, I'm trying to think. I don't think he had a dunk in the series. Okay, you're talking about a guy that's like he's going to get one or two

of those rim attacks a game where he takes off, right? And ties the tomahawk on somebody. he didn't really have any of it. It's weird because he still had a pretty good numbers for the series overall, like the only guy that did. You know why he was not because he was worn out from the 14 games it took to beat the two teams they were better at? That's like their fault.

I think it was a big factor, Bill. And I think, you know, it's a big factor. He played every other day for like a month. When they didn't have to, you should have won those series. And it was their own fault. Yeah, their own fault. But it still is a factor. And you don't know how much of a factor until you run into a fresh team like they did.

Then you're like, it was obvious. So you would look at Mobley or Allen trying to basically choose between those two. Probably Mobley. Probably Mobley. And I think I was a little disappointed in this series just because like he shoots decent percentage from the field. They'll have some games where he does decent rebounding numbers. But he just has stretches of games where he just, you don't notice them. Yeah.

Offensely. Now we're what? He's four years in. He's 25 years old. And you're like that you just wanted that next progression. Now he's a little bit better three points. shooter, probably much better than when he came in the league, but he's not like he's out there shooting 40%. He's in the mid-30s. He can make them. He made like one or two, I think, and probably

every game in the series. That's great. He added that. But like, it's just the impact and the force that you wanted to play with for the entire game because he has a lot of talent. And he hasn't really been able to kind of find that gear. So maybe it would be him. I don't think it would be Mitchell. Would you trade him for Janus? Oh, for sure. Okay. For sure. Because of the,

where Mitchell is in the stage of his career. And being stuck with Hardin, too, now for two years. So now it's like you're giving yourself a two-year window. That's what I'm saying. So I don't think that it would make sense for me in certain situations with the honest. Depending on where it was, it does in this case. Because like that window is like now, like every year is now going forward. So that would be the immediacy that you need in a guy that's built.

that could get you through deep playoff run and you're going to play with force against any defense and all of those things and he's won a championship. That would be probably, you know, a place that I would say, yeah, that makes sense. So if we sat in a log cabin and talked about this for two weeks straight,

I think we would come to this conclusion. How are we going to win four straight rounds of our guards of Mitchell and Hardin? How are we going to defend? There's too many good perimeter guys in the league. How are we going to be able to defend these guys when we need both those guys on the floor and one of them at all times is going to be

exposed. The Mitchell is slightly better than Hardin. One of the things I did post-mortem on them on a sports radio station in Cleveland. And it was what do they need to do? Like what's it looked like assuming you're going forward with Mitchell and Hardin? So they've got to get much more athletic on the wings. They've got to get tougher guys. They've got to get, you know, you maybe have to sacrifice some of the guys that can shoot for you

because they didn't even shoot that in this series at all. So you need to have some guys with a little bit better switchability factor a little bit better where you have options as a coach on what matchups you want to see

and guys that can run and get after in the open floor and play with that aggressive force because you're seeing the teams that are lasting in this league they've got some guys like that and they didn't really have a lot of that they got the two bigs

you play well together both talented guys the two guards a bunch of shooters role players for the most part beyond that but there was a overall physical toughness that they were not bringing to the Knicks, that it was so obvious. And, I mean, you saw it other times with Cleveland,

but it was really exposed in that series. And so, look, they've already made the decision to move forward with Kenny Atkinson, and they're going to go from there. And now I think they've got to retool the supporting cast and probably move one of those bigs. I mean, the flip side would be it's a 30-team league and they finish fourth. I don't know when you start talking yourself into that side of the narrative. I just don't think Mitchell and Harden and you could win four straight series of that.

And I don't really love Allen and Moby together either. So I would probably get a little more creative. All right. How are you feeling about the commanders? Decent? This time of year, I always feel amazing. Favorite part, right? Favorite part of the year?

It's the greatest time of the year. Schedule comes out. A fan of a team that has struggled that long. Yes, man. Schedule release, although we had a tough schedule early. schedule release and then I'm every day I'm reading about you know the OTAs and I'm just reading about these guys in minicamp and who's who's impressing and styles looks amazing apparently he's like already the leader of the defense he's going to be calling the plays as a rookie I'm like this is all the stuff I want to hear so really excited but it will always come down to the health of Jay Daniels end of story I'm just excited there hasn't been a story about my Patriots in a week so hopefully we can keep that going Have fun. I will.

And I think the one thing we're going to get, Bill, and I don't like making big predictions. But I do feel really good that I know we've had a lot of lopsided games, blowouts, maybe in the postseason, we wanted more on a given night.

I think the finals are going to be incredible. Whoever comes out of the West, I don't see that being a five-game series with like three lopsided games. I just, I don't see it. The Knicks don't go away. The teams coming out of the West, they don't go away.

they fight, they're talented, they're deep, they defend. I don't know, man, I think we could be set up for this incredibly epic NBA finals. And all the rest of Knicks get, you know, last round, this round, like you can't sleep on that either. If this OKC San Antonio goes seven, they play Thursday, they play Saturday, they have a couple days to, and all of a sudden they're going again, and the Knicks are just, you know, getting healthy, running plays, having bonding pizza nights. All right, Tim Legler. Say out of the rep for me.

Please give me a congratulations. Good to see. We're going to be coming back, take a break, come back with Brian Koppelman right after this. Uber Eats makes last minute gifting easy, whether it's Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduation, whatever. You blink, they're here.

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so it actually feels like you planned it all along. Order on Uber Eids today. Must be 21 or older to purchase alcohol. Product availability varies per region. See app for details. All playoffs long, I've been looking through the slates, trying to come up with some good picks from Fandallu's sportsbook to throw on my Twitter feed.

Usually my favorite parlay, some add-ons, if you want to get a little wacky with, the longer shot. So I'm definitely going to be doing something for game six and probably zagging against whoever lost in game five, zagging the other way for game six. Because I think this series just, it just reeks of seven. But we'll see what happens. I will have that pick on Thursday morning for game six. When I bet about Fando, it's a brand I trust, easy to build my NBA bets on Fandle. I know I'm getting great out, eight great odds, payouts on my parlay's boosts every day. And you get your winnings,

on Fandle, a Fandul, play your game. All right, my friend Brian Cappelman is here. I just want to mention he didn't want to come on. And I reminded him, you've come on so many times dating back to the ESPN days to talk about the Knicks. And it was always sad circumstances, unhappy,

why did God do this to me? I don't understand. We talked about our friend Goldman, who passed away in the late 2010s, the last finals he saw was 1999, missed all this. And that was what I said to you,

Copleman. I was like, you know what? You're about to make the finals. This is the most fun next team of this century, by far. It's a really special team,

even regardless of what happens in the finals. And you have to come on and talk about it. So you're here. Yeah, we made the finals. We're not about to.

We made the finals. It's very exciting. I didn't want to come on because I don't want to, I don't want to jinx it. I really, just want to be the, I'm here as just a, I'm such a fan. Look, my first memory, because this is like you and your dad, you know, and you and your kids. My very first memory is it, a human being,

is being with my father who died three years ago, but being with my dad at the Knicks, I was turning five years old. And that's literally the first memory I have is Madison Square Garden with my dad watching the Knicks. That's how important this team is to me. It's, you know, in the of my life. It's the best thing about sports and the worst thing is these connections we have to these teams and what they mean because of the memories we share with people. Like these times get you corny, get me corny and I can't help it because I'm literally thinking of a gominious, this guy named Bob Bobby Angler, who grew up across the street from me and he would wear Walt Frazier's number and I'd wear Earl Monroe's number. And we'd play one-on-one all day and all night long

as Earl and Clyde when we were little kids. And like, we still, he's four years older, and we still text each other when the Knicks are in the playoffs. Like from when we were seven, and he was 10 and I was seven, he was turning 11. It's like, it matters.

My college friends, who I went to games with, some of whom I still am in touch with, some of whom I don't talk to that much, they're texting me. Not because I'm a special Nick fan, but because we're all Nick fans and care so much. And so yeah, I don't want to jinx anything.

I'm just so happy to be in the finals. Every single person involved with the Knicks has just done an incredible job. And Jalen Brunson's the truth. So this segment is brought to you by new era, ironically, because this feels like a new era for Knicks fans. You think of the 2000s and the 2010s and all the crummy things that happen. And then Leon and West take over, All-Star Weekend, 2020, a month before COVID. And with really one goal, how do we basically recreate the 2004 Pistons with Rashid and Billups and all these dudes?

How do we think outside the box and try to put a contender together if we're never going to have, if we're never going to luck out the lottery? Nobody wanted to just do the ladder thing again because the Knicks have done that a million times. How do we think outside the box? when did you start believing in the vision? What year did you think this is actually something that was going to work? Well, in the beginning, I didn't know, right? And you know what happened is, I mean, you were involved in part of what made me be a believer was I ended up taking a walk with Wes and we called you.

And you were like, this guy. these guys, they mean it. And Wes, as you know, is, look, Leon's obviously a visionary with figuring out to put this team together. But Wes is this incredible connector of people and built this belief system. Yeah. So I think Wes was going to find all these people who were like lifelong Knicks fans and trying to convert them into becoming believers.

But it's about just like things are different now. just trust us, like we get it. Well, we have the right vision in place. He would convey that they really cared so much, like, about turning this around. And they kind of put their own net, like, they would say, like, judge us based on how we do. You know, so many people in those roles want to run from responsibility. And I felt right from the beginning that those guys were saying, no, we know what we're saying we can do. And we're going to do it.

But I can't, I don't, look, there's a lot of, anyone who's a sports fan of a team that has lost for a really long time or not lived up to the promises, knows that it starts to feel a little bit like post-traumatic stress. And you don't, you just are so accustomed to getting disappointed and hurt. and it is such a joy. So like, for instance, the Jalen Brunton move. Yeah. So many people want to say, oh, I knew it. I'll be honest. I had no idea that that was a smart thing until I started watching him.

And by the end of the first season, it was so clear that we had a guy who was one of the smartest people in the league, one of the true leaders in the league. I mean, a guy who is available to fans, like communicates, but his emotional range is that of like the greatest leaders in sports. Well, did you see what Mike Brown said today? Yeah, you told me. I mean, said, because you saw it before I saw it. Yeah. Yeah, they asked them about Jalen Brunson as a leader,

and he compared him to Steph Curry and Tim Duncan, two other guys have been around now. Anyone in basketball would say those have been the two best culture setter leaders that we've had basically in the last 35 years since Magic. And for him to mention those two guys as a comparison, I was like, whoa, that's, that's, that's not faint praise. That's like a real thing to say. It's so great for something to be like a positive surprise when it comes to the Knicks. You know, you're right when you talked about 1999 and then sort of the years of like the angry nick fan and i know i personified that sometimes

you know i wrote about i mean for you i i i wrote a lot of articles about being angry um about being happy when um spree came back and made the chokes you know that the that that signed to the owner but i'll tell you something like this has turned me around completely first of all i never stop going. I've had tickets since 1989. I had one ticket. My friend Alan Haby had the other. And Havy and I, then Havy moved to California, 12 years in when I could afford both tickets. And I've had the two seats since. But I've had seats since 89. And so this is just an incredibly meaningful, great thing. And yeah, if this is as far as it goes, it's a win to get back to the finals. I started taking my son, Sam, right when he was the age. I was when I started going

four or five years old. He's had some, you know, we've had long walks back. I wrote about the long walk. Brutal run for him. Yeah, because it was basically the reverse situation of what I had with my dad. Yeah. I had my dad and we're winning titles the first year we went and we had Larry Bird. And meanwhile, poor Sammy had nothing. He had that Carmelo getting around two once and insanity for three weeks. Yeah, he just watched all of these disappointments. And he's still, you know, wears a Knicks hat almost every day. And no matter, you know, he's just a diehard fan. And I do think that these guys have put together an incredible squad. I mean, you think about that day that Jalen, I love that this clip resurvases all the time. But you rarely see an athlete

in such an open moment, even in this era, Bill, such an unguarded moment is when he found out of the Josh. Yeah, yeah. And almost the opposite of the way people, when the Luca thing happened and people were getting it. When he found out that Josh Hart was traded to the Knicks, it's almost like he knew all of this. Like he started jumping up and out because he knew, oh, you put like my best friend, this guy who I know exactly how to make him better. I know I can count on him. He makes me better. He's going to throw his because, you know, Josh Hart is such still underrated.

And he's just so perfect on this. team, you know, and the whole team, I mean, even what Mitchell said the other day, right, you've got a team of guys who somehow are just hearts on their sleeves. You know, Jayland's the only one who's kind of guarded, even on his own podcast. He's still guarded. He's the leader. But everyone else in the team, they're the opposite of guarded. They just let you know what they're thinking and what they're feeling. And they're in it. I mean, even Rick Brunson, who will, like, argue with somebody. And yeah, it's, um, it's really been an incredible. incredible thing to watch and

be a part of. It's so hard to put together a possible championship team without one of the best five guys in the week. Because really the last team that was able to do this was that 04 Pistons team. The Knicks have nobody,

I don't think anybody who's been first team Omba. So like let's say if they win four more, they win the title. I think Jalen got no votes for first team this year. He was never going to I had a vote. He was never, it was Kate or Jalen for the last spot. Once Luca became eligible, Jalen was second team.

But the Knicks were, it wasn't a disappointing season, but it wasn't like the greatest regular season either, right? It was, I think there was as many questions as answers heading into the playoffs. They were like 7 to 1 just to even win the East. I don't think a ton of people were picking them and people really weren't sure. I think what was so shocking was. the how this became this like selfless old school Bill Bradley era Knicks team over the last 11 games.

Like even watching somebody like Towns just not care about his field goal attempts anymore and just, I'm just here to rebound, make some good passes and not have dumb fouls. And then makes all these incredible shots. But I think, you know, that, yeah, I think this is great. So you say the thing about the top five players, you know. Well, you could argue. If he wins the title, he then becomes the top. five player. But nobody thinks that way now.

Player in the league. But I also think what you said about leadership, maybe it's got to be a top because if he is the best leader currently, because Steph, but they're out of the play. If he is currently like the best leader in a way, the team has taken on his characteristics, meaning the team, his character, really, because he is a guy who will sacrifice, he'll sacrifice his body, he'll keep getting up. He'll keep trying to, right? How many fourth quarters has he had after games when he hasn't necessarily shot the ball well. That's the big thing is that I never feel like the Knicks are out of a game when they're down 15 because of him. You know, it's like, here we go.

Okay. And he just fine. He is a guy. I mean, I asked you this earlier because it is a great thing to texting, right? You and I have been texting about the Knicks since as long as we've had text the ability to text and known each other over 20 years now. And even I texted you in the first game of the Hawks series to be like when, Jaylen had that opening quarter that was so incredible, you know, and it's like, this guy,

to me, you know, sometimes even Nick fans will get on him. And I don't understand it. And they'll say, share the ball. And I, on the one hand, it's part of that thing of feeling like all these years of being disappointed. But when I watch this kid, I don't see a guy who is selfish. I see somebody who knows his job is to take charge of the game. And whether that means take charge of it by scoring, take charge of it by making a great pass, take charge of it by taking a charge. He's just willing to do whatever it takes.

And I think the other guys see that. Yeah. And they get fired up. The charges are a big piece of that too. Yeah, he does, you know, he's not the best defender, but he is in the right places all the time and he fights, which is really, you know, all you can ask for.

The Brunson-centric thing, I do feel like something shifted the last three, four weeks, where once whatever that little wrinkle is of moving towns away from the basket and running stuff through him, it just made them less predictable. Because I felt like they had the same issues that you'll sometimes see with Luca teams. You always see with the great hardened teams that never made it. The Celtics would get like this. You could kind of predict what they're going to do every play.

And I think in a series that becomes hard because you're just doing the same thing, seven games in a row and teams get used to it. I felt like what was going on with the Knicks with, now I don't really know what you're going to do. And now you're running as much as possible. You're getting these fast break points that, you know, you would kind of come and go.

And all of a sudden, it felt like this complete team overnight. Well, whatever happened when we were down to one, you know, that's the only time in this playoffs. Got dark. You know,

I thought we were going to lose game one when we were down in this series. But I didn't think we were going to lose the series, not even for a second. But when we were down to one, I really did feel like I so supported the Mike Brown move bringing him in. It made total sense to me. But I doubted it when we were down to one. I was like, I don't understand how we got here. And then seeing what they did, because 2.1 felt bad, right? It felt like the past in a way. And that was the one moment that I wavered. And in the whole thing, like in the last four years.

That's like the one moment. Because once they brought Jalen in, I thought Wes and Leon have just proven it. They put this squad together. They know. I'm in their hands. But down to one, I became just like all the commentators

who take shots at them. And I, you know, I should have, I wish I would have had more faith in that moment. But that was the moment when I was like, what is this, you know? And then, though, seeing what happened in the next game,

And the next game, I was like, right, don't ever fucking doubt this guy and this squad. We may not win. Wemby, you know, you got the two, I mean, a lot of people would say the two best players in the NBA. A lot of people already saying Wemby's going to go down as the best player in the history of the NBA. And it does seem hard, but I have the faith, man. I just totally, I'm full Tug McGraw. You got to believe. And now it's time for AirComp, brought to you by New York.

The new era, the official cap of the NBA, we know today's players are incredible. We know they shaped a lot of the styles of the players are watching today. They shaped the game we were watching today. The new era NBA Hardwood Classics collection celebrates those iconic moments and the players who made them unforgettable. So we'll put era side by side, 2000s and now. I was thinking two good ones for this. One is Stefan Castle, who I feel like you could have just easily thrown. thrown into the Pacers Pistons, 2003, 2004, Bloodbass Series that they had.

And he could have played for either team and given you, like, someone with Stephen Jackson was giving you in that series or a little Tashon Prince, but just, I felt like he just would have been happy in that series. But the big comp, let's go Wembe and Yao. I feel like Yao has just been completely forgotten. Only played eight seasons. His body broke down as it went along. But there was a moment with Yao when we started to wonder, you know, could this guy take over the week someday?

I think he got, I think he got up to probably 25 and 10 at one point. But he was 7 foot 6. He didn't move like Wembe does. He was a pure center. But had that same kind of overpowering. Holy crap. How was anybody you could offend this guy when he was close to the basket? And unlike Wembe, it was just carrying so much more weight.

It was harder for him to move up and down when he saw him in person. it was just, it was like, man, I don't know how long this one's going to last. And that's the difference with Wembe. When you watch Wembe in person, even though he's an alien and he's subfoot seven, the way he moves is just different. Like it doesn't, it just seems there's an athleticism to him. There's a grace to him. He carries his weight the right way.

It doesn't seem like he's carrying too much weight. But I thought, yeah, there was a moment there when it really seemed like it would have been shocking if y'all didn't win a title. Anyway, relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the new era NBA hardwood classics collection. Available in a wide range of silhouettes including the iconic fitted 595 or adjustables like the 940 A-frame

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in the palm of your hands. Score the FIFA World Cup 2026, $1 coin today. look forward in your change. I want to pour some settle down juice on everyone who says Brunson, if they win the title, is the best Nick ever, because that's a classic recency biased thing and really does a disservice to just go read up on Walshrazier for like five minutes. But with that said, I do think he has a chance to be the most beloved Nick ever,

right? Which is an interesting conversation. Right there with Clyde. Clyde is still so beloved. I got to be honest, that mid-80s Bernard, even though it was a blip, was,

but I think he's, as you know, that's my favorite nick of all time. But I think he's in the conversation. I just don't think it lasted long enough. But to me, it's like Clyde, Bernard, and then Willis because of coming out

and dragging his leg around in game seven. But I think Brunson making the finals, people are at least allowed to have the conversation now. Bernard King, April 27th, 1984, my 18th birthday, Bernard against the Pistons, when Isaiah had one of the great games ever. One of the best playoff games ever. But Bernard had a better game and we won in five. And it was one of the greatest. If you go like, that game's available.

Go watch that game and you'll understand what Bernard King was able to do. That said, you're right. right now the most beloved Knicks are those guys. Jeremy Lynn is one of the most beloved Knicks. He really is. But for me, and I mean, I'm 60 years old now. I turned 60 this year. And I love Jeremy Lynn for what he gave us for those three weeks.

But yeah, Shailen Brunson, that's the top guy. He hit the final stage in the Game 1 Cleveland game, where they're down 22 and there's seven-half minutes left. and it's a rap you shouldn't be watching and normally sometimes when we'll do the pod when we have to go live I'll text wherever the guest is and our producers are like hey let's go with three minutes

like this game's going to be done as I mentioned that night did not send the text because it's like got at least see what happens here with the next what was interesting about it is how the crowd everyone was locked in kind of waiting to see if it would unfold over the next couple minutes

like it did with Brunson and they recognized They were down 18 and they were recognizing what was happening. And that's like the final level of being really, really great in those situations. I did. I didn't think we were coming back. Really? Really?

I didn't think so. Against James Hardin? Well, that's a good point. Oh, can you explain this to me? Yeah. But Sam never lost faith up for one second, which I was very proud of him that he didn't lose faith. What do you make a Harden just saying I still think we're the better team? I don't know what to say.

when people say after a sweep when you say that, that almost feels like an IQ test. You can't say it if it's a 4-3 and even if it's a 4-2 and you completely blew three of the four, but if you get swept and you roll over in a game four to the point that the announcers at halftime,

Barker was just clowning them at halftime. Like you can't say you were a better team. No, what a, I mean, I watched every second of that game last night And watching them just not even, I don't want to say not care because they're professional athletes, I'm sure they did care. But just they kept getting beat down court over and over getting those rebounds. That felt like one of those games when you play in high school when the other team was so much better coach than you. Yeah.

And you would just be looking behind like, how did that guy get down there again? Right. I mean, I remember those. I can remember playing in those kind of games and just feeling like totally they were completely outbanded and outclass. It was a rap. Yeah, it was a weird one. This feels like Jalen Brunson. I'm trying to find the sports analog for this guy.

He has just the greatest characteristics of so many. He's almost like the way Brad Gilbert would constantly win. And he was four in the world and no one could believe he was four in the world in tennis. But he just would like get to, I mean, there was a time, Brad Gilbert was the fourth number four player in the world. And that may be where this guy, this guy finds himself. Yeah, I remember when you pitched us. of 30 episode Brad Gilbert narrative podcast.

We had to turn it down. I know you're so fascinated by Brad Gilbert. I just wanted you to co-host. And I remember you said, you could only do every other episode. And then I said, well, Mallory do the other ones. And you were like, I don't know if I can lender for that. And then that blew up the whole thing, which was a drag.

Here's the thing with Brunson. And I think you need this when you have the amount of baggage that a team like the Knicks have. Right. You almost need some sort of supernatural human being event to make people who are prone just not to believe anymore to switch flip their minds right for the red sox it was ortees it was ortees in oh four just the slow realization over the course of those four yankee comeback games that

we had ortees and like that there was something magical about this guy brunson now whether he can keep this going for the finals we'll see but brunson at least has done that for the nick fans where they're not thinking about what's the worst case there because the thing we didn't talk about was that Halliburn game a year ago, where it's like all the skeletons come out of the poltergeist pool in that game. It's like, wait, I thought we were past us. Oh, yeah. We haven't won since 73. I was there. I mean, yeah, yeah, that was just brutal. That series almost crushed me. But the, but a truth is, and that's obviously why Tibbs is gone and that, but that didn't, um, that didn't, that didn't actually dim my enthusiasm for this team.

Every move these guys were like, I was upset when they traded Dante because I thought the three guys together was so important, like to have the core from Villanova. And they were right. Like they're just right. Leon and Wes are just right a lot. And that is such an odd thing to think about the people running this team. It's not that odd. And I wonder like if I'm an owner, if I was an owner for a losing,

team, I would have meetings trying to figure out, okay, here are the four teams, the three teams, the two teams that succeeded this year. Why? What are the reasons? And if I'm looking at the next and I'm thinking like, well, how did they put this team together? Because they hired guys who were like relationships guys. They were guys that in the other business they had, which were, you know, they're basically player agents, representatives. And they're targeting people from age 15, 16, 17, 18, they're making bets on people. They're trying to, they're not just looking at talent. They're looking at how somebody behaves, what their background was, you know, how,

what their work ethic is, how competitive they are. Because ultimately they're betting on those guys as representatives because they're getting a 10% cut of everything they make, right? Of course. So you're betting on, you want to bet on like the safest competitive talents. And it's not really much different than putting together a team. So if I was an owner, I would be like, who are the other agents we can get? Who else sees the world like this and could potentially put together a group of people like this?

Well, they really had skin in the game. And one other thing about Wes, because you said the thing about, look, Leon's not going to talk to the press, don't worry about it. But one of the other things, right, but one of the things West does do is he walks around the garden. Wes is a visible presence. And not in the, I'm shadowing, I'm lingering over the bench to put pressure. No, the other thing where he walks around like, yeah, we have it all on the line.

Like he shows himself. You know, so many people hide in the front office and in the back and the second halftime comes. They duck into the, Wes is like out there and not just down on the front row. Like he walks around, the ring in between and talks to people. And people shouted him.

and he engages with people. And I do think, and that may be from being an agent too, right? Being in with people, being comfortable with people, knowing how to make deal. But it does instill a sense of, oh, these guys have something on the line here. Like they're saying something about what they're doing. So they put the pieces together. But they also have advantages of they've known Brunson forever because of the relationship with the dad. They've known town since he was 15 years old.

Ananoi was the CAA guy. They have real opinions on these guys because they have a whole background whereas like if you're just a typical GM and you're looking at it more like the way you and I would look at it. Like Zach Levine, what's he about?

And we're just like on his basketball reference. But all these things broke the right way. Like okay, Ananoby, as you know, his injury, like when, but Ananoby from the moment he came here, he was so great anytime he was playing in the garden. I don't know how much you felt in the garden. Like the garden loves. They love him.

Yeah. Like we love that guy as a, as a fan, you know, as fans in the garden. But other things like, like Bridges showing up with that completely changed jumper last year and everyone being kind of freaked out, but almost like when Tiger changed his swing, it's like, don't worry at the right time. It's going to peak. And then like, because it was the jumper was ugly and he missed so much.

But he knew what he was doing because like think about how it's paying off now. So it's almost like everything that's happened. These guys really just all know what they're doing. And it's very humbling. It's the thing you wish some of the commentators would understand. Like, sometimes these experts, sometimes they do know something like the people in the game. And, you know, I don't want to call out a certain self-identified big New York Knicks fan who's on ESPN, always saying a lot of bullshit about the Knicks.

But it seems like these people do know what they're doing. And Jaylen Brunson is the real thing. And we're in the championship. I can't believe it. I'm happy for you and see me in the whole Copperman family. I'm also excited that I'm one of the 15 pods you've been on this month. Thanks for fitting me in the rotation. I hadn't done a pod in like two years.

And then Cody Rhodes asked me to do a podcast. Yeah. And as you know, his dad, second favorite wrestler of all time and I love Cody. Got to do that. Got to do the pot. And then once I did it, another friend asked. But listen to me. Bill Simmons, it's always, who put me in the podcast game?

to start. Wait, I have one last thing before. Much to the shit. No, I don't want to, I'm not saying about yet. You got a, you have a new Vegas show. Yes. You guys were, there was all this stuff written about it last week. We start shooting in, you and Levine are back in Vegas.

We are back in Vegas. Everyone in America wants to know what part I'm playing. It's been, everywhere I go, people are asking me. I heard about the boys have a new show in Vegas. Are you just going to have a cameo? Is it going to be like, you're playing a blackjack dealer? Are you going to play yourself? Like what, so I don't know.

I'm in your hands. I mean, let's figure it out. What do you think? Do you want to put on a pork pie hat and be your gambler down on his luck? Do you want to be a dealer who's taking satisfaction in someone losing a struggling actor who used to be famous but got a gambling problem? And now I'm just kind of, I don't know, I'm open for anything. Yeah, you know what we'll do.

We'll put that version on the Ocho. And then, right? we'll put it on the Ocho and then, yeah, you can totally, you can totally do that. Rounders, tilt, the ill-fated tilt, Ocean's 13. This is the fourth one now in the whole gambling universe.

Although there was some dabbling in billions. Yeah, there was some poker in billions. But the cast, the cast in this thing, we haven't announced all the cast, but Oscar Isaac, Alec Baldwin, David Costable,

Betty Gilpin, and there's people like, you're old guy. Yeah. Got to have got it. We're never going to battle without Kosti. But the cast incredible Oscar is going to crush it in this, in this part. Damon Cameo? Can you get him?

I mean, listen. Just like just a slip by? I feel like this kills Renders too, but I'm fine with it. Everybody says it's never happening. I'll call you, you conference in, Matt. We'll take it from there. All right. Well, I'm happy for everything that's going on with you.

Say how to all your Nick fan friends. I know this has been a long journey. I'm just happy or happy. In honor of William, well, like you said, I wasn't going to do it because I didn't want to jinx anything. I didn't want it. But here's the thing. You were right.

You said two things. You said, one, I should celebrate being in the championship series. And having a lovable next team. But also in honor of William Goldman, who you loved and I love too. And when you said that he had 99, and that's the last time he saw him in the championship series. And so I just shout out, bring me the greatest screenwriter who ever lived,

the great William Goldman and a wonderful man and one of the great Nick fans of all time. He's watching over us. Right up there with Spike Lee. He's watching over this. Thanks, Kauffelman. Thanks, man. Talk to you soon. Bye.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Leger. Thanks to my friend Brian Koppelman. Congrats to all the Knicks fans out there. Here's the schedule for me. I'm coming back live on Thursday night after game six. You can watch it on Netflix or you can listen to it slash watch it, whatever you want on Spotify.

And if there's a Game 7, we will be going live on Saturday night for Game 7, OKC, San Antonio. So that is the schedule. Don't forget, new rewatchables went up, Animal House. And we have 2001, a Space Odyssey coming next week, either Sunday or Monday, depending on what happens with Game 7. I will see you later in the week. Must be 21 plus in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. or 18 plus in president in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming,

getting a problem, call 100, 800 gambler or 1,800 by reset. Call 88879-7777 or visit ccg.org slash chat in Connecticut or MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling help line, ma.org, or call 800-327-50-50 for 24-7-support in Massachusetts or call 8778. Hope, NY.

Or text Hope, NY, in New York for Louisiana. Call 877-7-7-0. 7867.