The Bill Simmons Podcast - A StruggleFest for Towns and Mitchell, an NFL Skill Position Draft, and a Netflix Crisis With Wosny Lambre, Danny Heifetz, Craig Horlbeck and Mathew Belloni

Episode Date: April 22, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Wosny Lambre to discuss the Grizzlies' comeback win in Game 3 vs. the Timberwolves, the Mavericks continuing to win playoff games without Luka Doncic, Nuggets-Warriors, Celtics-Nets, Bulls-Bucks, and more (2:03). Then Bill talks with Danny Heifetz and Craig Horlbeck about Deebo Samuel's trade request, before drafting the most valuable offensive skill players (45:39). Finally Bill talks with Matthew Belloni about the crumbling of CNN+, the traditional talk show's place in modern media, Netflix losing ground among the streaming giants, and more (1:12:08). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Wosny Lambre, Danny Heifetz, Craig Horlbeck and Mathew Belloni  Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We covered Better Call Saul. We are covering Barry on Sunday night. Sean Fentasy is going to do that one with Bill Hader, the writer, director, and star of Barry. And then if you like We Crashed, Mallory Rubin and I are going to be there doing the season finale this weekend. I think it's going to go up on Saturday. I'm also

going to pop on the Ringer Gambling Show tomorrow because I got to lick my wounds after some losses today, which we'll discuss in a second. With Big Waz, Wazney Lambry is going to come on, and we're going to talk about all the basketball tonight, as well as some of our favorite storylines heading into the weekend. After that, Danny Heifetz, Craig Horlback,

two of our Ringer Fantasy Football guys who are also on the Ringer Draft Show. We're going to talk about Debo Samuel and his value compared to all the other skill position guys in the league. We're going to talk about Debo Samuel and his value compared to all the other skill position guys in the league. We're going to have a skill position draft. So that's happening. And then Matt Bellany, who hosts the Town Podcast for us,

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All I do is give you free, great content. You don't appreciate it. What can I do? What else can I do other than crank out great podcasts? Let's bring in Pearl Jam! All right, taping this part of the podcast. It is 945 Pacific time. I'm here with Big Waz. We just watched three playoff games.

You know, this first round, especially this has been, I think, at least a lively first round. But it's funny, after like day five, day six, I'm a little punch drunk, Waz. Dude, I was thinking the exact same thing. The emotional rollercoaster of watching

teams come back from 20 down, watching guys make some of the most boneheaded fouls and turnovers and just the Utah game. That, that, that, that. The Utah game, how about? Minnesota blew two 20-point leads three hours ago, and since then it feels like it happened five days ago

because we had Utah basically. Now we're moving into the trade machine part of Utah season. They're down 2-1. It feels like their whole run is over. And then Gold State, Denver.

Denver is now down 3-0. We're going to have to deal with Jokic MVP stuff going forward because Embiid's going to probably sweep Toronto and so on. We'll deal with that later.

Let's start. Let's go backwards. Let's start. Let's go backwards. Let's start with Memphis, Minnesota, because that was a poor man's version of Clippers Rockets 2015 game six of not just a collapse, but they even had the thing at the end, they cut to the fans just still sitting in their seats in shock, trying to process what happened.

I think there was a big Towns moment, just in general, that we'll get to. But did you feel like better comeback for Memphis or bigger collapse for Minnesota? If you were going to seesaw it, what was worse or what was better? I think it's got to be Memphis. It's better because the team,

as young as they are, to show that much grit and just not give up. They just kept coming. They did not stop. And to me, that says a lot about the character of the guys on that team and what they care about. Like, you know, you contrast that to what we saw in Utah from the Jazz at home, not even on the road. To me, you got to give it up to Memphis coming back and staying with this thing because nowadays in the three-point era. And with John not playing well, that was the other thing. It's not like their star showed up for the first three quarters.

Go ahead. And you said it. Going down 20 points in the first quarter in the three-point era, This is not the 90s. That's not a death knell. But to do it twice, that's different. That's a different type of moxie. And, you know, I think Minnesota obviously played a part in this. But the way Memphis was just so relentless and played as if it was 0-0 the entire game, that is commendable and I think speaks highly of the character of those guys. 21-0 run. Chris Finch, no timeouts during the run. I just feel like that's – he's not a rookie coach. He's about a year and a half in, but that's one of those. The veteran coaches, they're stopping that.

They're sniffing it out. You see like the really great old school coaches like Rick Carlisle, Spolstra, the guys who've been in a bunch of big games. They're sniffing that. They're thinking like, oh, that 21 point went to 15 timeout. If you're going to come back on me, this is going to happen over the course of an hour.

You're not getting momentum. But we saw it was 79-54 with three minutes left in third quarter. And Memphis goes on a 50-13 run. They make six threes. Pat Beverly is like heat checking it, trying to save Minnesota down the stretch. It's like, clear out, guys. I got this.

It's like, you're Pat Beverly. What are you doing? Towns is MIA. Like, just have the Law & Order episode looking for that dude. And then Edwards, who seems like didn't really want to take over. It was the only guy I trusted, but he just was, he's too young to realize it. Give me the fucking ball.

Get out of my way. He didn't do it. Yeah. It's, you know, and that box score has circulated, um, throughout the internet of, you know, the Timberwolves having a 39 point quarter followed by a a 12-point quarter, followed by a 32-point quarter, followed by another 12-point quarter, right? And they basically spent the entirety of the beginning of that fourth quarter

not scoring on offense. To be honest, some of those looks were fine. It wasn't just Pat Beverly dribbling into a step-back three. Some of them were just off of movement. They got a shot. They didn't make it. And so I'm kind of fine with that. I thought they played pretty good defense.

They came out with an incredible game plan. They were just attacking the hell out of John Morant, like treating him as if he was a non-entity completely on defense. And they jumped out on these guys. Like they looked great. But to me, Memphis is the story because they just kept on coming. They kept on attacking. They kept on playing as if they knew they were going to come back on this team.

Well, did you see the tweet after the Ja Morant when he ran the Towns thing? Which then that went viral. But that whole team has so much fuck you in them. Yeah, no, no, no. The fuck you ability of that team is like an A-. Might even be an A. That's the number one thing that they bring to the table. And it fuck you in them. Yeah, no, no, no. The fuck you ability of that team is like an A-minus. Might even be an A. That's the number one thing that they bring to the table. And it's to a man.

Every single guy, Trey Jones, Dylan Brooks, obviously Desmond Bain, like he's literally flexing at people. Like, you don't want any parts of these biceps. And Jai and Jaron Jackson and on down. Like, everybody, Brandon Clark, these guys are all pretty hard-nosed and tough. That's what I'm saying.

I'm really surprised at just how much they were willing to be like, we're not giving up this game just because we're on the road. Their crowd is going nuts. Our shots haven't fallen. They just stayed with it. The call towns of it all, Bill. Hold on. Let's get to towns.

One more thing to add on that. Ja stinks for three quarters. Jackson did nothing in that game for the most part. And for them to win anyway with like probably a C to a C minus Joss game. I know he ended up with a triple-double, but I also don't care about triple-doubles. And then Jackson, not that much,

but everyone else steps up on the road like that. If I'm, Golden State's going to play them, right? That's going to be our two, three matchup. Cause I I'm writing off Minnesota. I don't think they come back from that. But if I'm,

if I'm going state, I'm looking at that and I'm going, okay, this is, this is a dangerous team. This is a team teams that can win when their best guys don't play that well are teams that I'm scared of in the playoffs. And it goes beyond depth. It's just like, is there a resiliency or you can you can you kind of figure

out the puzzle the Celtics I think are like that you know like game two Tatum didn't play well offensively Jalen didn't play well offensively but these other guys stepped up and they just allowed them to hang around until their guys got going, which is what happened in Memphis. See, but the thing about Ja that makes him an actual superstar is that even when his shot isn't falling, he's not having the best shooting game. He is puncturing the defense every time he touches the ball. Doesn't change how he plays. No, he's collapsing the entire Minnesota defense and spraying it out to shooters. And when he's not doing that, he's throwing lobs. He's getting guys layups.

So it's like he played like a superstar. And you mentioned that part in the fourth quarter where Anthony Edwards probably should have been the guy, even though he's 20 years old. A superstar is a run stopper. He gets to the line, two possessions in a row, you know, sort of sucks the win out of the run. He maybe makes a three or makes a shot or a clear out or whatever, like a superstar stops that from being

a 20 to 0 run, right? Like, he figures out a way to get, manufacture a bucket, maybe draw two, get an open jumper for somebody. They just didn't have anybody that could do that to stop that run. And Ja, you know, on the other side was just like, we are going

to keep, keep, keep, keep going. And that's what they did. Yeah, Edwards is a year away from that. Ja was a year away last year. Yep. You know, I think next year, same situation. I think Edwards shows up. You know who I'm not confident showing up is Carl Towns. I tweeted

during the game, the guy has no game awareness whatsoever. He's the most frustrating good player in the NBA. They ran the foul montage. If I was a Minnesota fan, I think I would have turned the TV off. They ran the five fouls that he had this game.

His fouls are terrible every game. This guy has no sense of I have four fouls. Maybe this isn't the time I shouldn't be grappling in the low post and throwing my arms and elbows around. He has no sense of, Hey, I'm a good three point shooter. I'm not getting off three point shooters. I got to figure out what's my plan B. Maybe I'll go down on the, on the block and get the ball there. It's so easy to take them out. You know, I looked at his,

so he's basically played four games in a row here. The Clippers playing game, these three Memphis games. He was 11 and five, 29 and 13 was his one good one, game one, 15 and 11, eight and five tonight. Six fouls, three fouls, five fouls, five fouls. Four turnovers, three turnovers, five turnovers, four turnovers. So 19 fouls, 16 fouls, five fouls, four turnovers, three turnovers, five turnovers, four turnovers. So 19 fouls, 16 turnovers in four games, basically averaging like a 16 and eight.

And it looks worse than that in person. I just don't know. It's not like he's 22. This is not year four. This is year seven. He's 26 years old. He's a free agent in two years. And if I'm Minnesota, I just feel like this is who he is. Is this what is this? Are you good with this going forward? Because I don't see another level for this guy. I think this is who he is right here. So I just don't, I remember Stan Van Gundy had said something that he was like, there are no superstars who aren't insanely high basketball IQ people. Like, you can't be a superstar. What makes you a superstar is you marry your physical gifts with a ridiculous understanding of the game. He was talking about Dwight Howard,

but he was basically explaining, like like there are no low IQ superstars Carl Towns is a low IQ player he just is you see it from how he plays defense but it's the other stuff situationally where it's like why are you pulling guys down on an offensive rebound attempt

why are you yelling at the refs after you've just mauled somebody by the way an offensive rebound attempt against the best transition team in the nba yeah you should be getting your ass back this is a strength of this team like the last thing you want to do is chase offensive boards against a memphis team that isn't the sharpest in the half court and wants to get out in transition for these high-efficiency buckets. Like, the idea that you would get a foul while you've been a very high-file player, like, on that type of play is crazy.

And like you said about the refs, and then you're showing up the refs like a smart aleck? Right. Well, and then what you mentioned about your superstar is supposed to stop runs, right? Do you trust him to stop anything? I just, I was thinking back, you know, for better and worse, the era that I grew up with the bowels of the internet and going on to page two in the early two thousands where we could really have fun with like a performance like

towns tonight. Right. And I would probably go way overboard eviscerating him. I'm not saying those were better times, but now these are much nicer times, right? Everybody's super kids, glovey about everything. And man, I'm just telling you, if this was going on in 1994 and 2003 with the way we consume basketball, he would be getting annihilated

and he might be getting annihilated anyway, but I don't know what their path going forward is. I wasn't the only one who was thinking tonight during that game, watching Utah stumble against Dallas, like man towns for go bear. You might as well just have them switch jerseys and see if it goes better for each guy, different teams.

Then towns could be with Mitchell. Cause I just, this is Edwards team. I don't know if Russell's there longterm, but I know this is Edwards team. And if I just, this is Edwards' team. I don't know if Russell's there long-term, but I know this is Edwards' team. And if I want Edwards to grow the way he's going to grow, you can't put him with, as you said,

a low hoops IQ superstar. And Towns isn't a superstar, by the way. He's a star. Yeah, he's just a star. And, you know, I was thinking about it because I'm like, all right, if you just preemptively move Towns, what type of things do you try to get in return? Right. Like, do you I was like, should they trade for Rudy?

Yeah, I think we all had the same thing. I'm just like, what kind of things do you try to get in return or do you just go all in on like, you know what? We're only going to go so far as Ant Edwards becoming an all-encompassing perimeter player who can not only get me the bucket, but also understands playmaking, understands how to get his guys involved. And he needs to start learning that. And we need to start making a more ball dominant. Or maybe you take the step back. Maybe you trade towns to like Detroit for their lottery pick and whatever. What's weird is he's, as you said, low hoops IQ player, but seems to be a high IQ guy. Seems to be one of the smarter, more cerebral players.

It's always weird to me when the guy is smart in real life, but on a basketball court, his IQ drops 40 points, and he's getting fouls 28 feet from the basket. Yeah, I mean, he's obviously not stupid. It's not that. It's just he just doesn't have basketball awareness. Like, he makes boneheaded plays. You are allegedly the most important guy on your team,

and you are picking up dumb fouls. Like, the idea that you would be picking up fouls that weren't, like, basically, you know, guys get beat on the perimeter, you have to give help, and you know what? You're out of position because the guy got beat so fast. All right, you have to take a foul. You're giving fouls in a place where you just don't have to. You don't have to foul here, and you're the last line of defense for your team,

which means you're going to be constantly in position to be giving fouls. It's just like the math on that is so simple. Yet he just doesn't do it. I'm frustrated by this guy. Knicks? Towns? Knicks? They like those Kentucky guys.

Maybe a little Knicks action. He's the perfect Knicks because he's going to put up numbers and he'll be polarizing and then they'll quit on him and get super mad. And it will just be bad because he will not contribute to winning. Last thing on this Timberwolves thing, you know, obviously the Vikings are there and the Vikings are a Pantheon top level Mount Rushmore tortured NFL franchise that have had some of the worst losses

you could have over the years. Never won a Super Bowl, the whole thing. And the DNA is there with the Minnesota kind of the collapse type thing. It was weird to watch that unfold in a basketball way. Because normally the Vikings have had so many bad playoff losses. And I was just thinking, at least their Minnesota fans are experienced with watching their guts getting ripped out of their stomach. But going forward, Anthony Edwards. That's it.

Just stay positive, Minnesota fans. You have Edwards. Edwards has a chance to be really, really special. And at the same time, I'm not willing to just concede this series like they're just going to fold in five games. I don't know why you would have watched. I'm conced to fold in five games. I don't know why you would have watched. I'm conceding.

I'm not. I don't know why you watch the first games and think that Memphis is somehow like way better than these guys. This is a wrap. Born out to me. It's a wrap. Put my, put this quote on,

on your chalkboard, Minnesota. You're out. You're not coming back. You blew it. You won game one. You tossed away game two, which was fine. Cause you won the game needed on the road. And you had a chance to close this out. You're not coming back. You blew it. You won game one. You tossed away game two, which was fine because you won the game you needed on the road

and you had a chance to close this out. And the only scenario, it's going to go seven. The only scenario in a seven is if they just hit like 23s. So you're right. Maybe that's what? Infantessimal chance, but I think they blew it personally. Hey,

when the playoffs start, you might assume a team doesn't stand a chance, but a deep and talented bench finds a way and powers through the playing tournament, grabbing an eighth seed in the conference and surprising everyone along the way. You just never know. Like Jalen Brunson. Who knew?

Here's my list of best players in the playoffs so far. Embiid, Giannis, Jimmy Butler, Jason Tatum, Jordan Poole, Jalen Brunson. Those have been the six best players in the playoffs so far. Who could have guessed this? Even when you assume a team won't see much of the postseason, there are always a few surprises along the way. It's like people that assume they can't afford great insurance, but then they discover that State Farm has surprisingly great rates. You know who has great insurance? Jalen Brunson apparently. You lose Luka Doncic,

I voted for him fourth for MVP. Can you explain this in 20 seconds? How Jalen Brunson turned into the best guard in the league? Utah Jazz have the worst perimeter defense that I've ever seen in a playoff series. Ever. I've never

seen this before. That might be true. But Jalen Brunson. Wow. We're going to talk about him a little bit in a second. Good insurance for Dallas. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there.

Get a quote today. All right. Dallas, Utah. Is it hot hottest take time? I told you I have a scorching hot take and you said you have one as well. Sure. We used to do a podcast that I think we're going to bring back on Spotify that we're going to pull you in on, Waz. We called it the hottest take.

You had to come on and you had to have an absolute scorching hot take and then defend it to two or three people. Here's my hottest take. Bringing it back. Dusting it off. Donovan Mitchell. CJ McCollum with better PR. That is certainly a hot scorcher.

Thank you. I just got, I got a little, my arm here has got singed from it. To be honest, man, the stats, the proof, as they say, would have to agree with you, man. If you just look at it, you look at their stats, it is shockingly closer than you would expect the last five years. I remember,

I remember, I'll never forget this Marbury quote where, you know, he gets traded after the Nash thing and

he says he's the best point guard in the league and Nash and the Suns are going nuts and New York media, because they're New York media like Steph, like all they did was trade you for Nash and

now they're looking like world beaters, like what's up with that? Or I think it was the New Jersey thing actually. No, it was the Jason Kidd one. Yeah, it was Jason Kidd. I thought you said you were the best point guard in the league, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what Steph said, I'll never forget it. He was like, you know why I'm the best point guard in the league?

If you rip the names off of our jersey and people just watch us play, nobody will come away from that game saying Jason Kidd is a better point guard than me. Which is like a very like obviously that argument works in your favor because it takes away the team concept and whose team actually gets to win.

So his teammates and winning don't matter? Yes. But, like, that's the same thing with Donovan Mitchell and CJ McCollum. If you, like, strip everything away, they're the same guys. They're one-sided players. So you agree with my hottest take? 100%. I actually would say CJ in playoff games is probably a little more trustworthy, but like Mitchell over and over again in these last five minutes of these games reverts to these 28 footers. And I'm not sure he's the most fun guy to play with. Sometimes I'm not giving up on him. I'm just saying like he's been around now. This is year six for him well okay but the cj thing is the reason why the cj thing is different we have

sympathy for him is because physically he cannot hold up against the best and biggest guards in the nba like you can't expect him to just from his physical stature can mitchell donovan mitchell is huge he couldn't guard he couldn't guard Spencer Didwitty tonight. That's the rub, Bill. As physically gifted as Donovan Mitchell is, he comes into the NBA with a defensive profile. That's what he's known for. It's like, yo, this guy,

if he's going to be one thing, he's going to be a menace on the ball in the NBA. Not anymore. Those days are over. Oh my God. I mean, you, Charks and I talked about it on Tuesday when, when Brunson was hot on Tuesday or the game before Tuesday. And I was asking Charks, like,

where's Mitchell just being like, let me take this guy. Like the same way Jason Tatum's like, let me take the rant. Yeah. And you know, if you're, if Mitchell wants to swim in the pool with the best players,

you've got to do it on both ends and he can't. And the go bear thing's tough because on the best players, you've got to do it on both ends, and he can't. And the Gobert thing's tough because on the one hand, he's just a weird player. We don't have another player like him. You can't blame him for the defense when nobody on the perimeter can guard anybody. But on the other hand,

over and over again, teams are attacking them the exact same way, and teams are going at him, and teams are pulling him away from the hoop or going in and you saw Dinwiddie dunking on him tonight and it's just everything is wrong with this team and you know they're gonna blow it up that's where this is heading look here's the thing about Rudy right they designed their defense to be just funnel everything to Rudy and let him take care of the rest just and in the regular season when you're playing the Knicks and you're

playing the Orlando Magic and you're playing, you know, Oklahoma City who's tanking and you're playing Sacramento and you get the gist like, it's fine. It's okay. You can do this against the Rockets in the regular season. Perfectly fine defensive strategy. You'll get stops.

It'll be okay. This doesn't work in the playoffs where teams are going to be like you're not used to guarding people for real you're usually given a fake defensive stance just literally just walking them to the basket and just being like do whatever you want against rudy well teams are like oh guess what we're gonna do to rudy we're gonna draw him outside he's not gonna be the safety valve. And your defense, where you walk guys to the basket, your big man's not going to be there to contest. And that's

what they've been doing for three, four years now, Bill. That's the defensive strategy. Funnel everything to Rudy and let him do it. And in the playoffs, he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Funnel us to the basket. While Rudy has to guard at the perimeter and if he doesn't, we spray it out for open court, wide open threes, practice level threes.

And then you see, even when they take Rudy out and it's like, all right, we're going to do a switch defense. They don't need they can't even do a basic just switch handoff. Just like, all right, we're going to switch. This is shit that we do at pickup games, Bill. You have people you've never met before. You say, yeah, we're going to switch. We're going to switch every single screen

and get executed. The Jazz can do that tonight. It's pretty bad. Well, Utah, 2017 to 2022. Swept in round two by Golden State. Lost in round two to Houston. Lost in round one to Houston. Lost in round one to Denver.

Lost in round two to the Clippers. And headed, it seems like like for a loss this year against the Mavs. What's crazy, no Kawhi last year, they lose. They might lose to the Mavericks. Without Luka Doncic. Without Luka Doncic. Even crazier,

Luka might get to round two for the first time. He's not even fucking playing. He's not even in the game. He's wearing street clothes. Even crazier, the Ewing Theory Committee now has to go to Utah for game four to study this in person. Who expected that?

We have to find hotel rooms for the Ewing Theory Committee. I got to get flights. They have to check this out for themselves. Bill, we love Jalen Brunson. He's to get flights. They have to check this out for themselves. Bill, we love Jalen Brunson. He's been a revelation. I've always had a soft spot for Spencer Dinwiddie. I've always thought he was a pretty

underrated guy. There were points in this game where they were literally just like, let's run actions to make sure Donovan Mitchell is guarding the ball. And they just dribble right past him every single time. And you know, and some some of the i don't know if you saw this on twitter people in basketball tennis start getting spicy and they're like hold on

utah finally makes a run with gobert on the bench right that news is is is you know circulating that stat with the plus minus and they made a run guess what davis bertanz was playing center for the d Dallas Mavericks to correspond with those minutes. The Bertans-a-sants. It's happening. Davis Bertans was playing center. Utah finally could score.

Moxie Kleber came in and you would have thought he was Draymond Green the way everything got mucked up afterwards. But it presents this scenario, Bill, where Utah has to basically bench Rudy. They have to give up on the notion of guarding this scenario, Bill, where Utah has to basically bench Rudy. They have to give up on the notion of guarding this team, which is absurd.

Yeah, they have to go small ball against small ball. They basically have to be like, we have to play. Which will lead to lots of long, sad shots of Rudy on the bench as this is happening. Nobody's going to be here. Plus, they have Danny Ainge there. He's going to blow everything up. All right, it's time. Before you go on, Bill, hold on.

They have to decide they can't guard Dallas Mavericks without Luka Doncic. Do you understand that? If I had told you a month ago, Utah is officially going to be blown up because Brunson and Didwitty were too much.

Probably would have had trouble digesting that. Oh my God. Oh, do you have a hottest take or do you want me to do my Spirididis impersonations? I mean, I don't think I could beat that because my hot take was basically that Utah should preempt the Donovan Mitchell trade request and just move.

Just buy. Get out of town. Like, your leadership style is obviously piss poor. Yeah. You're not Dwayne Wade. We have Dwayne Wade. You're not Dwayne Wade. And another guy he looks up to is Kobe.

And guess what, Bill? Like, people got to understand this about this Mamba mentality, Kobe system shit that a lot of these players throw out there. When Kobe was 25, he was locking fools up. He was all defensive team. He was the best perimeter defender in the NBA when he was 25 years old.

So all these dudes that want to beat Kobe and want to get the accolades and want to get the love, play some fucking defense, bro. My guy Tatum. Exactly. That's how you win the respect and that's how you get into that final circle. Play some defense. My guy Tatum. Exactly. That's how you win the respect and that's how you get into that final circle. Play some defense.

I would not trade Mitchell this year. I'd blow everything up. I would wait a year on that. Especially because I don't think his value is maybe where it was six months ago because of what's happened in this series. But, Quinn Snyder's going to be gone. Gobert will be traded

and somebody's going to bite on that. Maybe Towns will be the answer. Maybe there's some sort of Gobert Town something. Maybe Gobert goes to Charlotte. I don't know. All right, here's my impression of Spiro Didis.

Didis? Spiro Didis, that play-by-play guy tonight. Here's him here's him at Ben & Jerry's ordering ice cream I'd like chocolate chip

in a waffle cone here's him at the Chick-fil-A line you don't have to courtesy laugh I will have the spicy chicken and the waffle fries he goes either he's straight or he's

ramped up he's got first up There's no He's got first gear And fifth gear It's funny I think that's another reason I'm punch drunk Cause when Spiro does the games

It's like Every Basket's the most important basket You've ever seen in your life Dude It's a time I was literally It's a foreplay for Spiro

I was feeling nauseous As if I like Root for the Jazz Like I was I was feeling sick It's a foreplay spirit. I was feeling nauseous as if I, like, root for the Jazz. Like, I was feeling sick. Like, I don't have a rooting interest. I don't really care what happens to this team. I thought Utah would do well this year, so I'm like, damn, this sucks for them. But, like, watching them just implode this way against a team – like, it's Spencer Dinwiddie and Jalen Brunson y'all like this isn't steph curry

and dame lillard just like there's no you know like if you don't step up they're gonna three point you to death in your eye and if you do they're gonna dribble right past you these are like really good nba guards starting level nba guards they shouldn't just be eviscerating you like this. I'll have a venti vanilla latte and the red pepper egg bites. I'm just going to keep doing it until you break down. I have a question for you. Gordon Morris, Jeff Green, Jamechael Green, Austin Rivers, and Will Barton. Or

Wiggins, Porter, Juan Toscano Anderson, Kaminga, Gary Payton, and B. Liza. If you're Jokic, which six would you rather play for? The six you have now, or the five through ten guys on the Warriors? The five through ten

on the Warriors. I think it's an argument, right? Without question. Without question. So I don't want anyone to have the Jokic MVP conversation. I mean, that's stupid. Because his team, all due respect to those dudes, but that team is bad. That is the worst two through 12 team in the playoffs,

hands down. And I can't believe they got a six seed. I honestly can't. That team should have been like a nine seed they shouldn't have made the playoffs or the play in um all you need to know is ask anybody who understands anything Draymond Green is the best postseason defender that we have nobody is more dominant on that end than Draymond Green and Jokic gave him hell tonight he hit a couple of freaking spot up threes and then basically Draymond couldn and Jokic gave him hell tonight. He hit a couple of freaking spot up threes. And then basically Draymond couldn't keep him in front of him. He had to, he had to guard up on

him on the closeout and he took him to the rack, got fouled a bunch of times. Like he was like, basically pick your poison. I'll post you. I'll shoot you. I'll dribble, drive you out, hit the open man on the double and triple team. He gave you the entire Jokic experience around a bunch of barely NBA rotational guys. Like, come on. I don't know how you watch that game and you question whether Nikola Jokic is an obscene level MVP candidate. Well, let's flip Philly and Denver.

If Denver is in the Toronto series, do they win? Without Barnes. I'm losing Barnes in the third quarter. Do they win? Without Barnes. I'm losing Barnes in the third quarter. Are they beating Toronto without Barnes? I don't see why they couldn't. And if Philly's playing

Golden State, what's the result? That's a series. That's a series. I think the the Barnes injury, the underrated thing so far, Barnes getting hurt,

everyone just kind of stepped over. Apparently people that weren't watching league passes. I thought he was their third most viable player, but I thought their top three were pretty, they kind of needed all three of them. Especially on offense. Especially on offense. He was like their mismatch hunter.

Like when they put, tried to put little smaller guys on him, he was the guy they would go to. They'd like be like, all right, spread it out. Let him go one-on-one and attack a mismatch. Like people think that he's like this incredible defensive player, which he's pretty good,

but he's still really young. So he makes a lot of mistakes. Um, but really his value was added on offense for Toronto this year. And, he was doing a lot, man. Just like,

yeah, you put him with Ananobi, NCI, and all of a sudden, your team athletically is a little different. I think they at least would have won one of those first three. I thought that was underrated. Nick Nurse.

By the way, terrible, terrible last couple weeks for the quote-unquote genius coaches. Nick Nurse. Nick Nurse. Defend the fucking inbounds pass. We've been playing basketball since the beginning of time

put a guy in front of the inbounds passer make it hard for him they got.9 seconds left put a guy in front of him positioned between the basket and the ball

and he's not just going to be able to throw and beat the perfect pass for a turnaround three what are you doing why is Fred Van Vliet involved in that play under the basket? What's he going to do? Block Embiid?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Always, always, always guard the inbounder. With a big, tall guy with long limbs. Yeah. Spreading them out and jumping up and down. Make it hard for them. I understand if you're doing a full court press at certain points not guarding the ball not with.9 left

you're not doing that it may be putting two guys on the team's best ball handler on the inbound but like the last shot of the game there's no seconds left you want to make that pass as difficult as possible really dumb that was underrated

Kyrie was terrible in game two and everybody was just like, it was Durant's fault. It's like Durant had 20 free throws. Durant's going against this team that is starting to look like one of the best defensive teams of this century. Honestly, this

team is starting to move up the ladder and at least is on that 2011 Mavs level of they can, if you're going to play ISO ball, good luck in the fourth quarter. Like they, they don't even Rob Williams now. Kyrie was 10 points, two free throws, um, one assist. They looked like he didn't want to be there in the fourth quarter. My dad called me when he got home. Cause he went to the game and he was like weird Kyrie game. And he was like, reminded me of the Kyrie that we had for that walk series before he left. Kind of didn't seem like he wanted

to be there. And that was how I felt watching it. And then the next day it's like, it's Durant's fault. It's like four for 17. And it was like, all right, well, he had 17 defenders being thrown at him. He went to the free throw line 20 times. He's getting the utter shit kicked out of him in these games. It's his fault? No. Were they running plays? Did they run pick and roll with him and Kyrie? What is the offense that they're

running? We've seen KD play much better and he seems to be out of sorts. I understand that instinct, but Kyrie was bad. To be fair, some of those shots were the exact same shots that he made against Boston the night, the game before, you know, it just happened that this time it didn't go in, but, you know, he was bad. He was bad. And I thought his shot selection was poor, not enough getting to the, to the rim. You know, people said I kind of overstated the shot selection.

I'm just like, bro, like, Darryl Morey's been, you know, basically been called a god for his discovery that you should probably try to shoot as many threes and get to the cup and less contested 19-footers as possible. You know,

you bring up Tatum, like, a good thing about him is him cutting out those step-back 19-footers as possible. You know, you bring up Tatum, like, a good thing about him is him cutting out those step-back 19-footers and making them threes. If you're going to take that kind of shot, at least make it be a three-pointer and make it actually count. So, yeah, I think they got some stuff to clean up. Kyrie was bad

100%. I don't see how anybody could say any differently, especially when you consider the concept of the team is that they win when KD and Kyrie are great. I didn't, like, if I'm a Nets fan, listen to some of the concept of the team is that they win when KD and Kyrie agree. I didn't like, if I'm a Nets fan, listen to some of the quotes after the game when Kyrie is like, they're windows now. It's stuff you say like when the series is over.

I just thought it was weird. I don't know what's going to happen in Brooklyn. A couple of people were disturbed by that one. Yeah, it was just weird. It was kind of defeatist. They play Saturday night. It's a Brooklyn home game. I think there's going to be a lot of Boston fans there. I think this Celtics team, honestly, is starting to look like a Belichick-Pats team. We'll see how it goes on Saturday.

But the fact that they could have been that bad offensively for three quarters and have their two best guys look like their arms were caked in butter and they literally couldn't hold on to the ball and to hang around and hang around and then make a run. And then they can get stops like really good signs. And then you look at, you know,

Middleton gets hurt. He's out at least the next two games. Sprained MCL. I don't feel like is an injury you come back from in a week. They said they're going to reevaluate in two weeks. Yeah, that doesn't sound good. So you have the bucks.

Oh, hold on. The NBA karma gods are here. Hi, guys. Oh, you don't like it when teams toss away games to get a lower seed because they're playoff tracking? You've hated that perennially and there's always been karma consequences? Oh, wait, it happened again with Chris Middleton.

The Bucs, who all they had to do is like, you know what I value is home court and the highest seed possible. And they were like, no, no, we're going to get cute. We're going to play Chicago. Well, Caruso's back. Now you don't have Middleton.

And now, I hate to say it, but Chicago has three of the best four guys in the series. Yeah, it's crazy. Oh no, three of the best five. Holiday's in there, my bad. Yeah, Holiday's in there. They have three of the best four guys in the series. Yeah, it's crazy. Oh, no, three of the best five. Holiday's in there. My bad. Yeah, Holiday's in there. Three of the best five.

Holiday's in there, but he has to wake up. You could argue Caruso might be the sixth. Dude, there were moments during that game, that last game, where Caruso was literally dominating on defense. Caruso was out holidaying Holiday. It was insane. He blocked Giannis at the cup.

And I think they call a foul, which was a phantom foul. He drew a key charge at the end on Giannis. He's getting deflections. It was ridiculous. He was everywhere. Well, our guy Jason Goff, he's been saying Caruso's the lifeboat of the team. And when he's been out there, the Bulls are of the team. And when he's been out there, the bulls are good energy.

And when he's not out there, the bulls aren't as good. Man. I wish they had Lonzo too right now, man. This, this, so there's just so much fun to watch because obviously DeRozan is making

these impossible 16 footers. Yeah. And Zach Levine can, you know, get high from three and get going downhill and what Caruso's doing on defense And, yo, I got to give it up to Vucevic, man. I know he's kind of he's holding up. He's rich man Lopez in Lopez. Right. He's like, watch this. Here's how you actually do this. If you want to get to 24 and 10. Listen, as a Celtics fan, longer that series goes, the better for us.

You know, we got to take care of business with Brooklyn, but if there's a world where that can go seven, it can get a little hairy, we'll put on some playoff miles on Giannis. And who knows? The thing with DeRozan,

even if it's a game seven in Milwaukee and there's no Middleton, so now I don't have my crunch time score. Now there's so much pressure on Giannis now. And then DeRozan can have one of those quarter stretches when he's just in the zone. They could steal a game in Milwaukee. They could steal a game seven.

But the problem is the flip side with that is we just saw it in the Brooklyn game. You can, you can have the Kyrie and KB game. It's just as easily, you know, and, and when that's the case, you really can't expect Chicago to be able to muster much other on offense outside of what Levine is doing on ball.

Yeah, I mean, Levine's a max guy. I would expect him to have at least one good game here. I thought the Bucs would win in four or five. I thought the Bulls had quit on the season. And that is one of the many things that has changed. What a playoffs. Anything else we care about before we go? That's it, right?

Yeah, I think so. I think shouts to Philly for taking care of business. Phoenix and New Orleans. We'll find out more about that, but the no-booker thing and the fact that I think Phoenix wins the series, but I thought it was interesting

on Fandle, that line dropped to like Suns minus 300, something like that, which for a team that went 64 and 18 or 65 and 17, whatever it was, against a team that won 36 games

and the series is tied 1-1 and they're only minus 300, you know something bad happened. That's something bad happened. Great, great one. They said it's a great one. Great one hamstring for Booker. Not great.

That's another two to three weeks. Yeah. For him. Not good. And, you know, look, I don't know what this is. I'm somebody not just, I don't say this selfishly, Bill, as somebody whose job it is to cover the league. Yeah.

I would like less work, less regular season games. The wear and tear on these guys, man, is just starting to show itself. And the condensed, like in the past two and a half years, the amount of time that they've crammed this much games in, I'm not going to pretend to know that it's causal, but man, yo, I really wish

we could cut down on the regular season and just get to this. Get to what we're doing right now because these games are so compelling. The basketball is at such a high level. It sucks to watch so many key guys just go down, man.

72 games. I'll go for 72 games. Honestly, Bill, give me just a round robin. Everybody plays each other twice and keep it pushing. I would love to see that. Big Woz, thanks for coming on the podcast!

It was great to see you. Don't just watch all the NBA playoffs action. Be a part of it with FanDuel, an official partner of the NBA. Right now, all new customers get a risk-free first bet up to $1,000. Just place any bet on the NBA playoffs and if you don't win, you'll get up to $1,000 back in site credit.

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All right. Danny Heifetz is here and Craig Horlbeck is here from the Ringer Fantasy Show, which is called the Ringer Draft Show. It's got like two identities. It's like a showtime drama. Yeah, Moonlight is a draft show. Yeah, Moonlight is a draft show. We're going to play a game. We're going to try to do this in 20 minutes or less. I'll see if we can pull it off. We're going to do a game. All the running

backs, receivers, and tight ends. What we think their value is as assets. So this is like a cousin of a trade value game. The reason we're doing this is because Debo Samuel is available and producer Steve Cerruti was like, where does he rank? How important is it that Debo Samuel is available?

So let's start with Debo and then we'll play the game. Heifetz, how important is Debo Samuel to you? Is he worth two first round picks? The price for Tyreek, the price for Devante Adams, it's's like floating between a first and a second. Other guys like Jamal Adams were two first rounders. Is he worth two first rounders to you? I think the tricky thing is that it's so hard to divorce him from Shanahan and the 49ers in my

mind. I feel like to the 49ers, yes, kind of. Because we just watched the playoffs and Debo was, he made me feel like I was watching the past of football in the future at the same moment. Like, I feel like it's like Jim Thorpe or something, someone playing every position at once. But also, really, I think Debo, it reminded me actually of like Joel Embiid, the seven footer who's knocking down three pointers at the end of the game. It's like, how do you guard him? Who do you put on him? It doesn't matter what you do you're wrong that's what Debo is where you treat him like a running back well they'll shift him out to receiver you treat him

like a receiver shift him in he changes everything for defense I just don't know if he's going to stay on the field that's my concern that's mine as well what do you think Craig yeah I think there's some Shanahan cockiness to this where he's like I can do this with anybody so I don't need to pay you 25 million dollars a year Debo I can draft Traylon Burks and do it again. year he was healthy, but took a lot of hits. You know, when you think about, when you watch certain athletes, I remember Earl Campbell was like this. I know you guys remember Earl Campbell. He was only, he was a minus 20 when he was born. But he just, he took so

much punishment. I feel this way about Kelsey, you know, like as we're going to do this asset draft, I think like Kelsey's just taken a lot of punishment. What's he going to look like in three years? Probably not a hundred catch guy. And with Debo, the way they're using him and some of the games they were in and these

playoff runs that he had. I don't know. I don't know. I think that's a lot of what this is about is he's, I mean, he's, I mean, he pays attention to the stuff.

The running backs don't get paid. The receivers do. And he's like, we're going to use me like a running back. He's in his mind thinking, well, you should pay me like both. But if you're going to put the mileage on him, like a running back, he's got to get paid now. I think

that's kind of what the issue is for him. Craig, what's the most fun team for him to go to? Packers. Interesting. I would have said the Pats. All right. While I was making my list, we're ranking all the skill players you'd want. I was wondering how many skill players would have to go through to get to the win. Hyphens, just settle down. Don't come on here with your Pat slander. Nobody wants to hear it. We know the Giants beat them twice.

Debo and the Pats, though? No? You think Belichick? Here's the thing. Debo's not going to get traded somewhere, probably, unless he agrees to a big contract extension with the team. Devontae got traded. Tyreek got traded, those teams had already worked out a big contract. So my question for you is, do you really think, even if the Patriots give up a first and a second for him, let's say they would, do you think Belichick's also going to agree to

give Debo like $20 million a year? Well, the best thing about trading the picks for him would be that we wouldn't then have to make the picks. Right. I don't know if you've looked at the batting average on the picks. My thing is, who are the Patriots going to spend money on? You know, I watch the Rams. Like, the Rams are being mentioned as like a possible day. It's like, well, how do they have money? Well, they always find money.

It's like they're going under the mattresses and in the seat cushions. And the Patriots are the opposite. They spent money on Judon. They have a QB on a rookie salary, which is like, you know, the Holy Grail of being in this, you know, football asset business.

So the Jets, I think, would be another one for him. What are you going to say, Craig? Well, if you look at like where, so Tyreek and Devonta Adams are interesting because they're both elite wide receivers who were on good teams

and the good teams were not interested in paying them and let them leave. And they went to mediocre teams. And that might be where things are going. So Ben Solak said on the draft show the other day, he thinks Debo's going to go to a team like the Texans. And I agree. I think he's going to go to the Jets.

And I think he's going to be okay on that team. But that's kind of where things are going now, where these good teams can be like, I don't need to pay Devontae Adams $30 million a year. I'll draft Olave or Gilbert Wilson. What's his name? Garrett Wilson. Garrett Wilson. Olave or Gilbert Wilson. What's his name? Garrett Wilson. Garrett Wilson.

And do the same thing. Gilbert Wilson. Garrett Gilbert. No, but I think the rookie receivers contracts are like the new rookie quarterback contracts. Yeah. Because here's the thing. We just heard 10 years of,

yeah, I have a rookie quarterback. But the whole point is to get a discount. But the five most expensive positions in football are quarterback, receiver, left tackle, defensive end, cornerback. Wide receiver is the only one of those five that you can actually find outside the first or they're the easiest to find. And so I think that you're going to have to pay a premium at left tackle, cornerback, quarterback, defensive end more often. And the receiver is going to be the position that's the easiest to flip out. So I think a lot of these teams look like the Niners. Do you pay Debo? Do you pay Nick Bosa? The Chargers, do you pay Joey Bosa? They're giving

Mike Williams money. I kind of wonder if that's going to be a good decision, but I think a lot of teams are making this decision. And that's why you see these pairings. Two is on a rookie deal. They got Tyreek a lot of money. The Chiefs have Mahomes and Packers have Rodgers and big money. They're getting rid of Devonta, getting rid of Tyreek. So I think that's kind of where this is all going. Yeah. Nobody will have both. Yes. You could either. It's not for long. You could have the quarterback, but then you got to get super creative. Or you could have the receiver, a rookie, and then maybe take one more swing with like a mid-level dude. But this is why

we're doing this asset draft. Craig, you have first pick. Danny, you have second pick. I'll go third. The caveats are guys you would want for the next four years, talent, durability, and most important, contract. So if you would say this is not a ranking of all the skill guys, the non-QB skill guys, because if you're taking Tyreek, you're taking Tyreek with the 30 million a year. That's part of the package. But we're not taking Tyreek on the Dolphins. We're taking just Tyreek with his contract, right? Tyreek with his contract. Yeah. We're not talking teams as much as just the talent. So, Craig, you go first. Who do you have? There is one true first overall pick here,

and it's Jamar Chase. I had him as well do you have him yeah i had my top two and i'm gonna i'll just tell you the top two right now chase and then i'm taking justin jefferson and that's why i'm surprised you gave yourself the third pick bill because i think chase and jefferson are so clearly the top two in this exercise well the fun thing is i yeah i didn't tell you guys this but it's gonna be a snake draft so i have the third and fourth because i'm going second it's the same other way. I had the same thing. I had Chase one. I had Jefferson two.

You could argue if this was a talent draft, they would still be in the top five. But when you throw in the rookie thing part, if we were saying no salaries at all, is Chase still the first pick? What do you think, Greg? Top five for sure. Yeah, I mean,

he's 21 years old and he was the top five receiver last year. I think he might have been. I don't know how you want. It's unbelievable the Bengals pulled this off where they get Burrow

who that worked out about as well as it's going to work out. And then the Chase thing, which I, listen, last year at the draft, I was like, why don't they take a tackle?

Burrow's getting killed. And they took Chase and it worked out. All right. These two guys, it's like loss over that. They went to college together and won a championship together. I can't, we just took them first of all,

if we want the NFL, it's just unbelievable. They played together. There's so many young athletes. I like now. I don't know whether I'm just getting older and my standards are dropping or whether we're in a good run, but like,

I love Anthony Edwards. I love a lot of these newer NBA guys. I like some of these NFL guys. The Bengals, they're just heartwarming. I like this next guy that I'm about to take. Little pricier. Our first little bit pricey guy. I know who you're doing.

Cooper Cupp, the best wide receiver in the league. I had him at number three as well. Triple crowned it. We left the Super Bowl. We were like, that guy's the best receiver in the league. A month passes and Devontae Adams gets traded. And I was like,

wow, Vegas just traded for the best receiver in the league. It's like, did Cooper Cup get in a car accident? What did I miss? What happened to Cooper Cup? Still pretty young.

His contract, he's like about 15 million a year, which is delightful. And I'm getting good value there. So I'm taking him. This next guy probably isn't on your board. I'm looking at age. I mean, going this high.

Age, position, how they're going to use them next four years. I'm taking Kyle Pitts. Bill, we have the exact same top five. Okay, good. I didn't know if you'd have him this high. But I think he's like, is he 21 yet? Can he legally drink? He's 21. Okay, good. Yeah. I didn't know if you'd have on this high, but I think he's like, is he 21 yet? Can he legally drink?

What's his deal? He's 21. He is 21. He turned 21 during the season, like in the middle of the season. Yeah. Sorry. So Chase Jefferson, I took up,

I had Pitts there. So we're all pretty aligned on those four. This is where it's going to get interesting. Number five, high fits, you're up.

So I think this is, I agree, this is where it gets interesting. Number five, Heifetz, you're up. So I think this is, I agree, this is where it gets tricky. I'm going to take Tyreek Hill because I think that this is the point where I still want elite players. Like I still want an elite guy.

And Tyreek Hill is the fastest player in the NFL by so much that I think that it changes. I'm a little nervous to take a guy that's 20, 29, I think going into his 30s for the next four years, but it doesn't matter.

I mean, he's so much faster than everyone. It's hard to describe what it does to a defense, but it's kind of like when Steph Curry, Craig, you love Steph Curry, when he crosses half court, the second he's crossed half court, he can shoot. And you actually have to think about him. It's gravity, right?

Like he's pulling people toward him. Tyreek Hill pulls all these defenders toward him in a way that changes the actual shape of what a defense is. As long as he can run, he makes everyone else so much better and more productive that even if on the Dolphins

this year, he's not getting the same numbers, he's helping everyone else. That, to me, is worth the money. I'm down with that, too. I thought that was the right pick. The thing with Tyreek, they had to trade him because you can't pay two guys basically $80 million a year. You just can't. And they tried to figure

out, all right, we'll patch this together. We'll draft another receiver with the pick we're getting. We'll use this money. We'll put it elsewhere. We'll improve our offensive line, whatever. It wasn't really a reflection on Tyreek Hill as much. It's just you can't pay Mahomes and Tyreek at the same time. You okay with that pick, Craig? Yeah.

I think we're in a new tier now where it's guys with elite talent, but who have proven it and are worth the money. Yeah, which so I know who you're taking next. I'm taking Devontae Adams. Yeah. I don't care how much money he costs. He's 29 years old.

He's the best wide receiver in the league. He's also super healthy. My criteria for this is like, have you had a breakout season or a million, which Devontae Adams has had? Have you shown me season or a million, which Devontae Adams has had? Have you shown me you can stay healthy, which Devontae Adams has had? And if it's time to pay you max-like money,

have you shown me that number one and number two that I just listed? And that's what Devontae Adams is. I mean, he's always healthy. He's the number one receiver in the league, and it's worth the money. Couldn't agree more, which brings us to number seven.

Now it's getting interesting. Now we're in Debo range. Like, Debo is starting to lurk around here. Who do you have for number seven? Oh, right. I get back to back. I'm going Stefan Diggs. Who I think is the most underrated receiver in the game and is 28 years old on a solid four-year, $96

million contract. Same reasons I like Devante. He's healthy. There's no... There was slight trade rumors with him. That's not true? He was just tweeting on the internet. No, it's one Devante's healthy. There's no... There was like slight trade rumors with him. That's not true? He was just tweeting emojis and stuff. No, it's one Devante and Tyreek got those huge deals.

He was tweeting emojis. They restructured his contract a little bit. But the bills are in the same weird spot now because it was easy to fit in when Josh Allen's on the rookie deal. Now Josh Allen's going to get paid and they're paying digs. So you kind of have to make...

It's really those five positions and they're going to have to shift some around, but it seems realistic. This is his last Buffalo year, which would delight me to no end because they're in our division. Uh, all right. Who do you have for number eight? So I think this is where, I think this is tough. I'm probably going to zag, but if we're factoring in the contract and we're factoring in, again, guys' situations, I actually think I'm going to take CeeDee Lamb. I had him. I had him right there. CeeDee Lamb is making $3 million a year for the next two years.

And when you compare that to, I don't know how you guys went through this, but Terry McLaurin, Debo Samuel, like A.J. Brown, D.K. Metcalf, all those guys want new contracts now. But CeeDee's going to want one next year. That's fair. CD, you got one more at this price. Then he's going to get antsy. I mean, they cut Amore Cooper because they think CD can do the number one. I mean, Bill, you know, he destroyed the Patriots last year.

He had like a 35-yard touchdown to end the game. I don't remember that. Don't remember that game. It's blocked out. Believe me, I'm a Giants fan. I wish CD could just not. I remember them not throwing it to him for an entire playoff game, which was bizarre.

Seemed like I would have thrown to our best receiver. He feels like one of the most misused guys at that level. He's like elite. He should be in the A.J. Brown, Debo Samuel state of mind, but people don't think of him that way. But I think he's just as good.

The Cowboys bringing back Mike McCarthy after that playoff game, I kind of think their season's already ruined because when everything goes wrong, I mean, like not using Seedy and stuff. I'm with you on Seedy. All right. I have number nine. I'm taking Debo. I think this is the right spot for him. Now, I don't know what his new contract

is going to be. My guess, it'll be closer to the Diggs money than to the Tyreek money, right? Like low 20s a year, something like that. Probably a little bigger guarantee. He says they all want fake numbers. So Tyreek's number is like 30.

It's really 23, 24. So if Debo says he wants 25, call it 19. Okay. You agree with that, Craig? Yeah, probably. It's just going to be how much he wants to play running back.

Honestly, it's city miles versus highway miles. I saw Nate Tice tweet that. I thought that was he wants to play running back. It's city miles versus highway miles. I saw Nate Tice tweet that. I thought that was great. A running back miles, that's city miles. And if Debo wants to put up stats, if he wants to run the ball from the backfield

and his wide receiver, he's going to want more money. And I bet you a team's going to pay him for it. So I can see him getting a little bit more to go to Lake of Jets. You know what's fun about this? We just made nine picks, eight receivers, one tight end. Not a running back in sight. Not a running back

on site. I'm going to be transparent. I don't have a running back listed. I literally couldn't. I literally don't have one. Mine pops up at number 14. I have a running back. I'm taking him now.

Jonathan Taylor, number 10. Okay. I looked at AJ Brown there. I know he's going to be holding out and there's going to be a big contract coming up. And for some reason, I'm not positive about him staying healthy either. Now we're moving into these,

am I sure I'm getting 16 games out of you? Taylor, he's only been in the league two years. I think he could replace Henry as like the guy. I think he'll be the top. He'll be the top fantasy guy next year, right? It's him or Henry. I would assume Taylor would be the number one pick. I think it's going to be the $59 running back, all that stuff.

Get him for at least three years. He's going to have a better quarterback situation this year. And, uh, and I think that's the right spot. I also think there's such a disparity between him and who you would go next at running back because Henry's getting older. I don't know. If we're talking four years, I don't know what Henry's going to look like in year four.

So that's my pick. Kai Fitz, you're up. I'm going to take A.J. Brown. Yep. It's the right value for him. I'm a little nervous. Debo and A.J. Brown, I dinged. It's the health stuff with me.

Yeah. But that's really it. Well, the physical receivers, you just worry. They're a little like tight ends, except they're not even as big as the tight ends. Craig, you're two on the clock here. I'm thrilled that this guy fell to me. And everybody talks about health. Oh, can he stay healthy? I'm taking DK Metcalf, man. DK Metcalf can stay healthy. He's a freak. He's been good every year. And I think he's tremendously underrated, to be honest. I had him listed over AJ Brown because AJ Brown can't stay on the honest. I had him listed over A.J. Brown

because A.J. Brown can't stay on the field. I was texting our D.K. Danny Kelly this morning. He's a huge Seahawks fan, and I actually kind of got my... I think D.K. Metcalf's overrated. He thinks I'm insane, but I feel like he's... We all can't get rid of that narrative

that, like, oh, he can't run routes. That was, like, four years ago. But now that he's going to go from Russell Wilson to Drew Locke, I think he's going to have a real crash back to earth situation this year. In this exercise, that's fine, but I think DK, I

don't know. He's been incredible to this point, but I kind of feel like this season is going to be I'll tell you this one. He's about to become way more underrated because he has Drew Locke throwing it to him. Well, actually, we'll be unable to rate him because he'll never have a pass thrown to him. What do you have for 13, Craig? It's going to be a sad fantasy episode

about DK Metcalf this summer. Yeah, it is. 13, I'm going with Tee Higgins. That's great. I wanted him. He's on year three of a four-year, $8 million deal.

He's making no money. And if Jamar Chase wasn't on the Bengals, Tee Higgins, we'd probably think he was even better than he is now. All right. So before Heifetz goes, Chase, Jefferson, Kup, Pitts, Tyreek Adams,

Diggs, Lamb, Debo, Jonathan Taylor, only running back taken, A.J. Brown, Metcalf, Tee Higgins, Heifetz, you're up. I'm taking Terry McLaurin. Yeah, I had him next to him. Because I think Terry... You talk about quarter...

We're talking about removing these guys from the team. Terry McLaurin had 1,000 yards last year with Taylor Heineke. I cannot imagine how good he'd be if he was in Seattle instead of DK Metcalf. He's like...

DK Metcalf. He would be top five guys you'd want to have a drink with to hear them talk about what their life's been like. I mean, obviously, everyone on the Packers is number one on that list, but maybe non-Packers. But McLaurin, like, man, what's it like?

You had like six quarterbacks. Like he's been to war. He's the new Allen Robinson. He's actually probably worse than what Allen Robinson had to deal with. Right? I don't know. He was Alex Smith with like 30 rods in his leg and Heineken.

He had Haskins for a little bit there. Who else did they have last year? Kyle Allen. Kyle Allen? There was one other bad one. He's another one, though, who's up for a contract renegotiation, Terry McLaurin. He is, but I would pay him.

I have two picks. I can't believe I'm doing this. Craig, you're going to laugh. You're going to take a stealer? Jared Judy. Wow. I love Jared Judy. The first complete wildcard pick, but I just

I'm not giving up. I'm doubling down. He's got a real quarterback this year. He had a bad injury at the beginning of last year, which was a fluke. He recovered and then he was in a weird quarterback situation. Now he's got Russell real quarterback this year. He had a bad injury at the beginning of last year, which was a fluke. He recovered. And then he was in a weird quarterback situation. Now he's got Russell Wilson.

And I feel like I'm buying early to a guy that I think is going to be a massive asset. You know, he turns 23 on Sunday. Yeah, I'm aware. I'm still in on him. Yeah, I'm in. Craig, get bent. You're a little jealous.

Yeah, I don't know what Jerry Judy's like. It's like when... Remember when Parks and Rec started, I was all excited for Parks and Rec, and then it was just horrible season one. And I was like know what Jerry Judy's like. It's like when Parks and Rec started, I was all excited for Parks and Rec and then it was just horrible season one. And I was like, what? Is this good? I guess I'll stick along. And season two came, they got rid of that one guy, Brandanowitz, and the show absolutely took

off. So maybe that's true luck is the Brandanowitz. That would be great. My other pick, it's either Hunter Renfro or Jalen Waddle. And I'm going to take... Hunter Renfro? Not Hunter Renfro or Jalen Waddle. And I'm going to take... Hunter Renfro? Not Hunter Renfro.

The guy in the Raiders. What? I'm going to take Waddle. I'm so mad at you, Craig. He was going to take Renfro. I almost took Waddle when I could have had McLaurin last pick.

You like Renfro. I wanted Waddle. I almost took Waddle when I could have had McLaurin last pick. You like Renfro that much? I do. I do. It's funny though because Joe Waddle is so much better than Hunter Renfro. I know,

but he produced big time last year. But Waddle's the right pick. Plus with the Tyreek space and the thing for him. He's another guy. Has he had a real quarterback yet? He's just that guy

that's throwing him bubble screens. What would he be like if he had a real one? All right. Hi, Fitz, you're up. I'm good. Talk about just removing these guys from the quarterback to have. Give me Devontae Smith. I mean, if he was playing anywhere but the Eagles, I kind of think he would be a sensation right now. And Jalen Hurts, I like Jalen Hurts, but I think it's very easy to forget how incredible Devontae Smith is and that Eagles just run this very weird offense. But if we're in this exercise,

$5 million a year for Devontae Smith, that's easy money. I don't know what to make of his rookie season. I agree. I think there's more established guys who are affordable other than Devontae Smith who hasn't really... I mean, like you said, we just have no idea.

I guess same with Jerry Judy, but I don't know. But I think that's where this is kind of the pivot point in this exercise. I mean, there's certain guys... I mean, I don't want to blow the lid off this, but I don't think anyone's taken DeAndre Hopkins. But we're at the point where, I don't know, four years in the future,

I would rather have Devontae Smith making $5 million a year for the next three than DeAndre. DeAndre's making like $25 million. Yeah. All right, let's do three more picks. Who do you have, Craig? I'm taking 25-year-old DJ Moore.

Wow. Okay. DJ Moore is 25 years old. He has three straight 1,000-yard seasons with Sam Darnold and Teddy Bridgewater on a three-year,

$60 million deal. One of the most underrated wide receivers in the game. That's a good one. I should have taken him instead of Devontae. Good value. Nice, decent contract.

You got one more, Craig. I debated... Renfro? I did not debate Renfro. There's so many other guys. I'm taking Renfro. I'm just telling you. But if you leave him, I'm taking him.

I think I'm going to take Chris Godwin. I was literally going to say, Chris Godwin doesn't get drafted, but Hunter Renfro does. Chris Godwin. I was literally going to say, Chris Godwin doesn't get drafted, but Hunter Renfro does. Chris Godwin just had a major injury. And he's expensive. If he doesn't return well, he might be as slow as Hunter Renfro.

He was not on my list. Really? He's 26. Well, I don't like the injury and I don't like the price. Just the KCL injuries don't matter anymore. I can't wait for Heifetz to get attacked

for his Renfro slander. Who do you have? Come at me. That's fine. I think Hunter Renfro can handle it. There's no Renfro hive out there.

You know what? No, it's like everyone acts like he invented like a triple move versus Heifetz. Like, oh, Hunter Renfro with that special move he invented.

What? A double moves or a thing? He invented triple moves? I'm tired of it. You know what Heifetz says? He invented triple moves? I just, I'm tired of it. You know what? Heifetz says like 103 catches for 1,038 yards and nine touchdowns last year.

But go ahead. I will take Elijah Moore. Because again, I'm just, it's the same as Jerry Judy. It's the same as Devante Smith to me. Like, I think these guys

are unbelievable. And in this exercise where we're removing them from the quarterbacks they have, Elijah Moore was, what, Zach Wilson last year, Josh Johnson for a little bit. Who was the one quarterback that came in? Mike White? And yet Elijah Moore still was

really good. I think if we're talking about, again, the next four years, Elijah Moore is going to be as good as all these A.J. Brown, Debo guys. He's going to be about that good in a couple of years. But we're going to get way less. Let's circle back. We'll do a couple because I want to take two guys.

I'm going to take Renfro at 20, 21, sorry. And then I'm going to take Najee Harris at 22. Yeah, I like Najee. That's good. He's the other running back I would want for the next four years from a talent durability. I mean, the amount of hits and reps he had was insane. And just him getting crushed behind the line and I just... The moment he's in a better situation, I think he blossoms.

I also think he's the most likable guy who's coming to the NFL in a long time. He is infectious. Who do you have, Heifetz? I'm going to take DeAndre Hopkins at this point. How much is he making? I thought it was pretty prohibitive. It's a lot,

but at this point when actual running backs are coming off the board, I think, so he's making, the real money I think is like $23 million a year. It's a lot,

but at this point he's worth it. Craig, last pick. Can I give the one I would actually do and then the one I want to do in my heart? The one I actually want to do

is Darren Waller, 29. Still, I mean, there's no good tight ends these days, so I would be to do is Darren Waller, 29. Still, I mean, there's no good tight ends these days. So like, I would be perfectly happy grabbing Darren Waller

for the next four years. The guy I'm not giving up on, my Jerry Judy, for you, for you, Bill, is, it's Chase Claypool, man. What did,

Heifetz, what did Craig call him? Terrell Owens, 2.0, or what was, what are the many hyperbole things? Calvin Johnson. Calvin Johnson. Hebole things? He had the same measure as Calvin Johnson. Calvin Johnson. He's the only guy

to have the same numbers as Calvin at the Combine. Listen, if you get rid of Ben's noodle arm, Chase Claypool is the top 15 wide receiver in the league. I'm not against that. I didn't like some of the clubhouse guy with them. Alright, guy you wanted to take but you were afraid you'd be made fun of the most.

Amon Ross St. Brown. So Craig has Chase Claypool. Oh, you have St. Brown? I wanted to and I was worried people would mock me, but yeah. Amon Ross for making a million dollars a year. I was checking out Javante Williams for a while. You like running backs.

I like Javante Williams. I can't wait to see him next year with that Broncos team. I have expected you to take sake one. Now because it seems like he's a little too available.

I haven't given up on him. I haven't sold I haven't sold his stock. All right. Recap Chase Jefferson Cup pits. That was our top four

Tyreek Adams digs CD lamb Debo Jonathan Taylor, AJ Brown, Metcalf, T. Higgins, McLaurin, Judy, Waddle, Devante Smith,

DJ Moore, Godwin, Elijah Moore, Renfro Harris, Hopkins, Waller. Most upset right now, George Kittle. Mike Evans too. Well, he said Mike Evans is expensive, right? Yeah. Is he? George Kittle's like, hey man, I got hurt last year. And when I came back, I was kind of kick-ass and please don't forget about me. I'm just so afraid of him that he's going to tear a hamstring every time he catches the ball. I feel the same way about Mike Evans.

I can't deal with Mike Evans like just the lower body stuff for the next four years. Yeah. I agree. All right. Good to see you guys. What do you have planned

for the Ringer Draft Show? Wednesday through Saturday. A show every single day. Great. Well, think of me when the Pats trade down. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Bill.

All right. Matt Bellany is here. He writes for Puck and he also has a podcast for us called The Town, which is a really good Hollywood, kind of what's going on two, three times a week. And we've had a lot of stuff going on and we're going to double dip with some of the stuff you've already talked about. But one of the things you didn't talk about was

CNN Plus. What did it last a month? It broke Quibi's record. Less than a month. Oh, it shattered Quibi's record. Quibi lasted six months almost. This is less than a month. This is like two and a half Scaramoochies, like almost three Scaramoochies. We're talking like epic, epic fail. $300 million just burned. So was this Jason Kylar, he's on his way out and he just is basically like, I'm leaving anyway. This is just going to happen. I'm seeing this through. I don't want this blood on my hands. He leaves, they launch it. And then the new people come in and they're like, we're getting rid of this. This is dumb.

Yeah, and it was very interesting because they wanted to get rid of it. So then you saw the slow trickle of negative news about it that most people believe the actual owner of the service was putting out there in order to churn the water. So everybody knew that this was a failure. They did not want it. Warner Media, Warner Brothers Discovery, they want one streaming service. They want HBO Max. They want everyone in the world to have HBO Max. Having CNN Plus only confuse people.

It didn't actually have the CNN content on it. You couldn't go there to watch the news of what was happening now. They had a bunch of random shows from people like Scott Galloway and Jake Tapper's book club and things that were supposed to appeal to a CNN superfan. But who is a CNN superfan out there that wants this? Nobody actually wanted this service. Well, they're all podcasts. I mean, isn't the real problem with this? It's like you have these quote unquote talk shows

that you want people to go out of their way to watch, but people don't watch talk shows like that really at all anymore, except for the old standards, which you talked to Bill Carter about today. I just, what we haven't seen work with streaming, and this goes to ESPN Plus, this goes to Peacock, pick a streamer.

It's just Netflix tried three different talk shows. Hulu's had two. People don't go to streamers for talk shows. And in general, I think podcasts have completely murdered new talk shows. I think it is so hard to launch a talk show when there are just shows galore. And there's also all these different ways to get focused analysis, whether it's news, sports, culture, stocks, whatever you're looking for, it's kind of out there anyway with really smart conversations. So then why would I want to watch that on my television? Yeah. It's mostly just the fracturing of the entire media ecosystem. There is no such thing as a big tent audience aggregator other than sports. There really isn't.

You're right. If you want an in-depth, smart celebrity interview, you're certainly not tuning into Jimmy Fallon. I mean, that is just a plug fest. They basically just turn it over to the celebrity to tell you about the product they're selling. And if you tune into some of these more in-depth podcasts, whether it's your show or Marin or Dax Shepard or whatever, you're going to get something that is a little more substantive. And then you look at the comedy of these

late-night shows, and it's all on YouTube the next morning. And the YouTube has become the differentiator, which is the thing like that's what Kimmel cares about. Bill Carter mentioned on your podcast today about how one of the things, if you can establish the late night show and you can establish the brand, especially on network, the thing's a money machine

because you really don't have to pay the host. You got like maybe a hundred person staff, the theater's in place. So you've already built that, you've paid for it. It's almost like having your own basketball stadium. And then it just goes and goes. And you can sell all these different things. The person becomes the face of your network. When it gets to streaming, how has somebody become the face of the network? I think Jon Stewart probably was the safest bet to potentially do that. But then the show he picked, it was only at eight times. It was issue focused. It was very luxury. And it wasn't like he was going to become the face of Apple TV. They have new stuff every week. So you can get lost too. He also took a month off after two shows. How do you do that? You're trying to launch something,

get people into the habit like, oh, we'll be back in a few months. Right. I mean, you either have to go monthly or weekly, but you can't do the, you'll get a show when I'm done with a show. I don't know if that strategy works. People have the habits. The Stewart thing was really interesting because, you know, when he left, he was at, he was in a lot of the ways at the top.

And what he returned to was a totally fragmented world where, you know, a bunch of different people doing a lot of the stuff that worked for him seven, eight years ago. It's way more polarized. I think the most interesting one out of all the shows, and this maybe goes back to the CNN Plus thing, would the liberal version of this even work? But the Gutfeld show, which I don't know, Gutfeld or Gutfeld? I think it's Gutfeld. Gutfeld. Have you ever watched this show? I actually have. I have a Fox News loving father.

So when I'm visiting, he absolutely loves it. I mean, this guy is like his Oprah. He will tune in whatever. And I watch it and I'm just like... It's indescribable. I just don't get it. It's just a series of buzzwords. All they talk about is like,

Oh, oh, Obama, Benghazi, Hillary. It's like all of the buzzwords that people on Fox News love, but in a kind of quasi-comedy format. Right. Well, he comes out and he does this kind of Bill Maher-like monologue. And there's a couple of people chuckling in the background. It's kind of incredible. But I guess people would feel the same way watching's kind of, it's kind of incredible, but I guess, I guess people would feel the same way watching Colbert, right? Colbert is like the super liberal version of that now. And that's, that's part of the problem here is that it is so hard to just kind of appeal to everybody. So that, that's splintered. You're preaching to the, you're preaching to the choir essentially on these shows. And I think people know from their social media feeds now that are

completely algorithms that serve you what you already know and like. They're used to seeing things that confirm their worldview. So if you're watching a late night show, you don't want to hear jokes that are not in your political realm. You don't want to hear people making fun of, you know, Joe Biden if you like Joe Biden. So you tune into Colbert and the same with Fox News. Yeah, Marr's show is like that too. And Marr, I think, has really tried to push the envelope on his show. And it's almost like he wants to cause controversy and he wants people to come at him with some of the choices he's made. But then he did this HBO comedy special, which you did in Florida. I watched it last night, actually. night. And the audience vibe, you mentioned how the audience is, you know, for these shows are

very agreeable with whoever the audience for his standup show, because it was in Florida and the vibe was definitely a little different. It wasn't like people just clapping at every joke he made. It was a little confrontational. He almost seemed, I don't want to say he was thrown off, but it was just a little different of a vibe that I think he was used to. Well, and he started with 10 minutes of Trump jokes, which were funny and got the applause. But then he went into like 20 minutes of anti-Democrat, anti-woke, anti all of that stuff.

And then the audience was like kind of with him, but not really like on board with, you know, making fun of, of, I mean, he had some jokes that I, you know, I often wonder why comedy is not as prolific these days, especially in movies as it once was 10, 15 years ago. And I think there are a lot of things that you just can't do in comedy, but there are certain people that seem to get away with it. And Bill Maher can do 20 minutes of anti-trans jokes or anti-woke jokes of Democrats and seems to get away with it in a way that kind of Chappelle also does, although he had his controversy at Netflix.

Right, he did. But for the most part, these other late night hosts would never go into any of these areas. Yeah, some of the people who are trying to line cross, it seems like they're banking on like, anyone who's going to be offended by this,

they already don't like me. So why not? Yeah. So I don't know. As we head into the kind of the middle of the 2020s here next year, I think the whole talk comedy thing is in such a strange place. And then on podcasts, it's probably in the best place it's ever been. I think that's where a lot of the smartest conversations were because ultimately the conversation just has to be good and that's it.

You don't have to worry about how does the show look? How does the set look? Bringing guests into the studio in a lot of ways was pandemic proof, you know, and you saw these talk shows really had to struggle for how to account for, we can't have these people come in now they're back and, you know, they're humming along. And it's, it's sort of publicist proof also, you know, so many of these shows are dictated by what the star wants out of them. You know, if you're Kimmel and you're competing with Fallon and, uh, and Colbert for these A-list guests, you kind of have to do what they say and you have to talk about the things they want to talk about. But your show, if a celebrity doesn't want to have a real conversation, just don't have them on.

Yeah, I just wouldn't have them on at that point. I turned down almost everybody, as Allison could attest. Yeah, your audience cares just as much about Cousin Sal as they do about Ben Affleck. Right. Well, I think part of the problem, though, is that if you and I ran a PR firm and we had a bunch of celebrity clients, in some cases, you're better off with the celebrity just reaching out to their fans on social media and kind of staying public and staying relevant that way and just very carefully picking like one magazine feature that you know is going to be glossy or one

TV show where it's like, oh, he's been on Kimmel before. They like each other. I know that'll be a good 12 minutes or, oh, he can sing in a car or she can sing in a car with Corden. And I know that'll be good and we'll get them in and out. But I think in general, there's so much more to lose than there is to gain from that kind of PR anymore. I think that's smart. And I think our buddy, Louis K, who we both know and who deals with celebrities like this, I think that is a lot

of the calculus that goes into their thinking these days is like, what are we actually going to get out of this? And why put someone in a position that there could be a downside if you're not necessarily getting the upside? And I think a lot of people know going viral for the right reasons can be very beneficial.

Right. You know, so you do things like carpool karaoke or, you know, some kind of a bit, but, you know, just go. Or a cameo on Billions. So you're on Billions for, you know, 10 minutes or something like that. Or you made a succession cameo or whatever. Or a venue that you know that you're going to look good in.

Not necessarily like someone's just going to kiss your ass, but a venue where you look cool like you know maybe if you like i saw chelsea handler did the lebron talk show the shop yeah and i was like first of all i was like that's a get for her chelsea handler to be invited into that room where they yeah they you know they don't have that many white people they don't have that many you know people in her age demo it's mostly young diverse people and if you can sit in a room with LeBron and Maverick and Bad Bunny and Serena they had on and be considered cool like that, I'm like, that is a coup for Chelsea Handler and her publicist. But that's a rarity. You don't think that most of all when you watch these shows. Yeah. Like Keri Stiles. Does that guy

need to do anything? He's like hotter than the sun right now. You know, he does the Coachella thing. It's did he need to submit that by going on Colbert show? Like, no, no, I don't, I just don't think, I don't think celebrities need the infrastructure the same way. What you just said about Chelsea and there, my wife loves the new Kardashian show on Hulu. And the second show yesterday, I say it like I'm passing it off. Like I secretly love it. No, it's really my wife and it was on

and I was happened to be there preparing for stuff, watching it, trying to figure out, Khloe Kardashian was complaining about how mean social media is and how she doesn't. And it's like, wait a second, isn't that the whole reason you guys are famous because of social media? It's not like you're acting and singing.

But anyway, so there was a lot about that. But then Kim was planning her Saturday Night Live monologue and gets Amy Schumer to come in and she is basically playing off Amy Schumer for jokes. And I'm thinking like, this is brilliant by Amy Schumer. She just gets to pop on this thing for seven minutes as like the joke Yoda for Kim Kardashian. Like, of course she's going to do that.

That in 2022 makes so much more sense than, I don't know, going on whatever. I think hosting Saturday Night Live is another one like that. Do you think they're friends or do you think that was a booking? That they said, okay, we need a smart comedian female to help Kim. Who can we get? Or do you think they're friends or do you think that was a booking that they said, okay, we need a smart comedian female to help Kim.

Who can we get? Or do you think they're actually friends? They made it seem like they were friends, but who knows? Who knows? Who knows? My favorite thing about the new Kardashian show is people referring it to the elevated version of the Kardashians. This is on Hulu. It's the elevated version of the E! show.

I'm like, really? Okay. It's pretty much the same thing. I think hosting SNL is another one that's pretty foolproof from a celebrity standpoint. They don't think so. Unless you're bad. Unless you're bad. Exactly.

Or you're terrified. I know many, many personal publicists who have told me that their clients are terrified of hosting SNL. Because keep in mind, not everybody is actually talented, especially if you're a movie star and you're used to being able to do 50 takes and you've never actually done live theater or something like that. That show actually puts you out there in a live setting and you can absolutely flop. Yeah, but that's the job of the team, to know that their person probably shouldn't be hosting a show like that. Like when the lady from West Side Story won the Oscar,

when she was on, she was like a home run. She's a theater actress. Yeah. Just like last week, Lizzo was unbelievable. Yeah, I haven't watched that yet. She was really good. She easily could have been a cast member. I was surprised.

And then you tweeted the clip from Steven Seagal and his infamous hosting. Yeah, they had a lot less of an infrastructure to prevent bad hosting decisions in the 80s and 90s. Oh, because they knew it would just go away and people would forget about it two days later. But the internet does not forget. That's the thing. The 80s and 90s, you could fuck up and it was okay. And you can't anymore. So I'm sure that's another thing as people are weighing these different moments that

they could grab. Like, all right, if this doesn't work out, could this be on my resume forever? And they would also, on SNL, they would do those infamous 10 to 1 sketches that was a gift to a writer or something that should not be on television, but they would just do it because who cared? And now they do less of that because they know people are mostly watching differently and they're going to see it.

I heard you and Carter talk about SNL. I completely agree on that the cast is too big. I've said this forever, but I think it should be a basketball team. You want like nine cast members. Totally. And you can have 12, but you really want nine playing and it doesn't behoove them. I mean, the cast doesn't like it. I've heard many grumblings from the SNL cast where they want screen time and they're not getting it. It's like you get this big coup. You get this big break of a lifetime to be on SNL, and then they use you like three or four times in a season.

That's not great. Yeah. And they haven't... I don't remember the last time that Kate McKinnon was the last female star that really became, I think, a star. We'll see if it translates to TV and movies. It is not so far. But they haven't broken a male star in a while.

I mean, arguably Pete Davidson. He had a hit movie or quasi-hit movie. Yeah, you're right. Certainly like a tabloid star. That's fair. That's fair. I feel like he's been a star for a while, though. But yeah, you're right. Lauren stuck with him to the bitter end because he was like, this guy's a star. I'm never giving up on this guy. them at all. And it used to be that if you were on SNL for five to seven years, it was time.

You were done. And if they didn't nudge you out the door, you had to nudge yourself because you had to figure out what your career was actually going to be. Now you've got Keenan and Aidy Bryant and these people who literally have other shows that they are the star of, but they are still on SNL. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. You talked about Netflix on, you did an emergency pod this week. The Netflix thing cratered. We talked about some of the reasons. I think, so TikTok, I think, is the number one reason.

See, I don't agree with you on that. You had that in there. Because I don't think they're getting young people in the same way. I don't think people are watching TV in the same way like they did, especially during the 2018-19 range. I mean, to the extent that Netflix competes with TikTok

for leisure time, yes. But I just don't think that people think about those services in the same way. TikTok is a diversion for most kids where if they have a free moment or they're sitting, you know, at the bus stop or wherever they're watching TikTok. But I think that there is still a market for that premium video experience. And you don't think about TikTok as being competitive with that. Like, do people not subscribe to Netflix because they're like, you know what? I would just rather watch TikTok. I don't think they have that calculus. I'm not talking about the subscriber

thing as much as how people are spending their time, especially younger people. Because I do think in the 2010s, I think younger people were just the teens, basically people from like, I would say 10 to 19 were just going to Netflix to kill time and they would just find something and dive into things. I think there's just more choices. And you guys mentioned how all these different streamers, that's another thing. There's so much more competition now. A lot of people trying to repeat their model. And I think the binge thing, I think is really starting to work against them. And I just know from how we do stuff at The Ringer, I look at a show like Winning Time that I think if they had just dropped all the episodes at once, I think it's really starting to work against them. And I just know from how we do stuff at The Ringer, I look at a show like Winning Time that I think if they had just dropped

all the episodes at once, I think that show would have bombed. I think people would have watched too. I think they would have given up on it. If they kept going, whatever. It wasn't one of those things that we didn't know where a lot of this stuff was going. But now because it's once a week,

there's been all these different dialogues. This week, Jerry West came out against it. And Kareem Oguzabar. And we had this whole other life of attention for the show. And the show, I think the show got better, episodes three through six. I didn't think episode seven was strong.

But anecdotally, I talked to a lot of people about it. They said, fuck Boston over and over. That's probably why. The Boston stuff, we did a prestige pod about it. Yeah, fuck Boston over and over. That's probably why. The Boston stuff, we did a prestige pod about it. Yeah, I gotta listen to that. I didn't care about the Boston stuff as much as just factually, the show

is like a, it's, it just tells a lot of white lies. There's nothing super major, but it's a lot of like white lies. But anyway, over the course of seven weeks, there was an ebb and flow to it. And I just don't think you get it

from the Netflix shows anymore. I think they've hit lightning in a bottle a couple of times with Squid Game, Bridgerton. But for the most part, I think it's hurt shows like Ozark. I think it hurts any sort of prestige type of show that they have, the fact that it's just dumped on people.

I think it's hard for people to juggle. Well, the numbers on Ozark are very strong, but I do think I agree with you that it has hurt other shows. And especially when you're talking about the value proposition of keeping someone subscribed to a service. HBO gets so much value out of that incremental week by week. Oh, I got to watch this. I got to catch up. I got to be able to listen or have a conversation with my friends about these shows. And with Netflix, it's like they got to launch a new show every week to do that.

Because people just either you're into it, you get into it and you binge it and then you move on or you just miss it completely. And it vanishes into the ether morass of content and you just aren't even on board at all with something like winning time and they have seen that the ratings keep going up week after week because there is this conversation around the show now it's not a well white lotus was white lotus was the best example of that white legitimately built over four weeks and it got better week. And it was one of those things where people started talking about it. Are you watching the show? And because of streaming,

you can catch up. So you can all of a sudden get into the conversation three weeks in by spending three hours watching the show. And I think that is a hugely underrated. I like the Hulu model where they don't... The three episodes? I agree. Apple does it too. I think it's smart.

I think it's totally smart because I want to be able to watch a couple episodes when I, quote, want to, but I often will not get to three before the next one drops. So it's almost like you can

watch on a Tuesday and on a Friday night, but then you'll have a refresh on monday with a new show so you don't quite ever catch up yeah well i'll tell you another thing that i think was a real factor and it's a total fluke and it's not netflix's fault but you have the pandemic and then in 2021 you have all these streamers being like, all right, here are movies that are tied to the studios. And you have a place like HBO Max just dropping major movies every week. And you have Paramount doing the same thing.

And it is almost like if Netflix, they're kicking everyone's ass for a couple of years there and then everybody tries to catch up. Netflix is like the, I don't know, the 2017 Warriors just crushing it. And then it was like two other, three other NBA teams were like, all right, we're getting all the other all-stars and we're going to compete with you. And they did. And so you have that combined with all the other stuff that was going on, combined with the password sharing, which you talked about a little on your pod. I've never understood why they didn't care about that. I don't think anybody under the age of 25 is paying for anything. No, producer Craig admitted it on my show. Yeah. That he doesn't pay

for anything. Why would he? That's why you have parents. I know. I wouldn't want my kids to pay for streaming stuff. Just come on my account. I know. It reminds me a lot of the decisions that were made in the mid-90s, early 2000s with newspapers and media publishers where they all just random they just decided that oh yeah our content will be free on the internet and right for years people just expected it all to be free especially young people so that when they finally got their act together like wait a second our print business is gone and our advertising business isn't that great what are what is our business here and i think that that's the same with netflix they've always had this as this thing they could go to if they ever needed to which was all the free password

sharing and finally they need to i thought rich green on your show, he made a good point about Netflix just adding ads and sponsors and all this stuff. That's not something that happens in a week. You have to hire a staff. You have to figure out how to sell. You have to know what your rates are. You have to create the tier. You have to figure out how to apply that

to the content you've already done. I don't think, I actually agree with the theory that it seems like they came up with that at the 11th hour because they wanted something to say publicly to everybody. That is not something you just decide to do. Like even I look at Spotify,

like Spotify has been, for the last four years, putting together like a whole podcast sales site that I think is really good now. It takes a while. You got to figure it out. You got to learn the market. You got to learn the market. You got to talk to all these different people

and you develop connections and relationships. And you don't do that like, you know, in June, well, that's not going to happen. Yeah, I'm writing about that a little bit for my newsletter for Puck. And that is the question here is like, like it seems so haphazard. And these are very sophisticated advertising businesses that

they're competing with. And if you're Disney or NBC Universal with their streaming services, they've had advertising for 50 years now on their linear television networks, very sophisticated operation that they have then brought to the streaming world. And Netflix not only doesn't have that, they have been so anti-advertising for so long that it's almost like they're holding their nose and jumping into the cold water. Yeah. I don't know how it plays

out. I don't totally agree with the theory that everything is now circling back to where it was. I don't either. I think that streaming is here to stay. This is television now. No question.

And sports will eventually... People are predicting we'll have bundles the same way you used to. It's just instead of paying for cable or DirecTV, you'll have streaming bundles. I don't think it will be like that, personally. Oh, really? I think there will be bundles. I think they'll look differently.

There certainly will never be a time when there will be 500 channels again. I mean, that will all go away. You know, all the skimming the cable channels to find an 80s movie. But what would the bundles be, though? It would be, you know, get HBO Max and Peacock and Paramount Plus and Netflix for 50 bucks.

See, I don't think Netflix, they're not incentivized to help out the other ones like that. They're not, but maybe they will be. I think mergers, aren't mergers more likely? Maybe, maybe. But see, here's the thing. There are platforms like Apple and Amazon that are trying to be the gateway through

which you come into streaming. Because if you look on Apple and on Amazon, you can go to other channels there. And by other channels, I mean other streaming services. So they're trying to establish themselves as being the bigger platform players there. And if they all of a sudden went to these struggling streamers that are having trouble paying for all this content and say, you know what? The Amazon bundle is going to be 50 bucks and we'll pay you you know 90 of what you're currently getting for your subscribers but you become part of this bundle maybe that becomes appealing i would say apple would be the more likely one because you know they love bundling

a bunch of people together and claiming though it'll be great for them of course like apple news hey it'll be great join our apple news. You'll make so much money. Right. And then they don't. It's like, will I? Right. But, you know, maybe they'll be willing to make a deal because it's worth it to Apple to get you in their ecosystem. Because that's what their bigger play is. Their bigger play is the hardware that goes around this.

So if Apple had a TV, for instance, the hardware TV that they sold, or they're trying to get you to stay in their phone universe, and they had an Apple bundle of all these streaming services for one price, maybe they take a loss on it. Maybe they pay everybody more to get their services on their product. And then they make up the money through the hardware. There are many ways for these companies to make money. And one of the biggest gripes in Hollywood for the past few years is that Apple and Amazon don't actually have to make money on their streaming service. They, they, they're making so much money elsewhere that this is really a branding exercise. It's like a toy. It's like having a boat. Totally. Like, oh wait, really? We're going to win best picture for Coda. That's a nice little thing for our entryway and, you know, at our headquarters.

Like it's not. They're not thinking about it the same way Netflix has to because Netflix, that's all they do is the streaming service. Are we sure Netflix isn't in a similar spot to AOL in the early 2000s? I don't think it's

comparable because Netflix actually has a product here in that they have a 220 million subscriber. So did AOL. AOL was in the lead with emails and the whole thing and they ended up doing the merger with Time Warner because

they were the hot thing. Netflix did not do a merger, but it was inconceivable in 0102 that AOL was going to be cratering. I hear you on that. And I think that the differentiator here would be the content because Netflix does have a library of content. And the library.

And it has an infrastructure to make more. If the stock keeps dropping, I think they become a target for someone to come in and buy. It's so funny because they were the one who was supposedly looking at everybody i mean that which they should have they should have talked about on the pod the big mistake was just not grabbing a studio when their stock was like at five six hundred dollars oh my god if they were worth 300 billion dollars they could have gotten mgm for 8.5 billion not that much and they were just very could they got paramount was paramount like a possibility the problem with Paramount is that it comes with

all the other stuff like the MTV networks. And who wants to buy linear television networks at this point? And I think that... You get Rob Dyrdek. You get 24 hours of Rob.

Well, you get the challenge. And the challenge. Yeah, the challenge. Challenge All-Stars. I know. Speaking of, by the way, Wes is joining Challenge All-Stars. Is that... I know, by the way, Wes is joining Challenge All-Stars. Is that the thing that he...

It's time. I think it's time. You think it's time? You think his challenge career is over? The Paramount is doing a real-world New Orleans reunion. I saw that. I saw it.

I'm like, I'm going to end up watching this and I'm going to hate myself. I know it, but I'm trying to stay away. It's like seeing that Haagen-Dazs in the fridge. You're like,

I'm not going to eat that. I'm just not. Did you watch the LA reunion? I did not. I couldn't do it. It got dark. Yeah, I heard. I heard it got dark.

It sounds... It was like four episodes of re-litigating that incident in the bedroom where Tammy got dragged across the floor for like... Literally, they talked about it

for like two hours on the show. Yeah. I don't, that's the kind of, I don't even want to go to my own reunions, much less see the LA real world read. And I mean, you really just want to see what everyone looks like,

right? Yeah, basically. And once I see that, I'm good. Right. All right. So we've had,

before we go, we've had a rocky 2022. You've covered a lot of it on the town, your pod. Give me one prediction for this spring. One story that's going to blossom. Because we probably would have predicted, and you had it in your newsletter on Sunday. You were like, hey, this Netflix thing, buckle up. This could be really bad.

CNN Plus was another one I think people saw coming. What's the next thing that we kind of see coming but hasn't happened yet? I made this prediction on another podcast, but not on my own. But I want to make it here because this is a much larger platform and I think you will like this prediction. Top Gun Maverick will be Tom Cruise's biggest opening weekend of his entire career. Wow. Yeah.

Cruise. So guess what his biggest opening weekend is? Not adjusted for inflation. If you go back to the 80s, I mean, I'm sure if we adjusted, but not adjusted for inflation, what do you think his biggest opening weekend? It's got to be like one of the Mission Impossibles, right?

It's not. What is it? It's not actually. War of the Worlds. War of the Worlds, like 68 million. That makes sense. Which was him, Spielberg, big property. But this is going to blow it away.

Now I'm talking about the three-day because it's opening Memorial weekend. So it'll actually be a four-day total. But even the three-day, I think, will be bigger than that. What's crazy is this was supposed to come out before the Bubba Lakers won the NBA title, right? I mean, this was shot, I believe, in either 2018. Yeah, 2019.

I mean, Miles Teller has been sitting around with that mustache for like three and a half years waiting for this movie to come out so we can finally get rid of it. I feel the worst for my guy, Glenn Powell, who I thought was going to become an absolute potential A-lister partially from this movie, right? And now it just delays everything. I'm still buying Glenn Powell's stock.

He's good. And I think he's apparently the star. Miles Teller is not the breakout from this. Well, Miles Teller has The Offer, which he's great in. Oh, you've seen it. I saw the first three episodes. And it's good. Is it worthwhile?

I thought it was good. Yeah. I think it's probably going to be too long. Like everything. Yeah. It should have been seven episodes. It's 10. Right.

Right. Has that kind of feel to it. Like they're definitely meandering a little bit, but I thought the, the actors and the performances, the guy who plays Bob Evans is great. Guy who plays Pacino is great. Miles Teller is really good. So they did a good job. The Coppola guy's good.

That was supposed to be... You'll like it. That was supposed to be Army Hammer, the Miles Teller character. Oh, man. And then he had his meltdown and they replaced him. Yeah.

Army's... It's even tough to watch him in the social network even though it already got filmed. All right. Check out The Town with Matt Bellany. Don't forget to subscribe or at least check out Puck

because it's been incredibly influential, I think, for people who love all this stuff. Good to see you. Good to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Creighton, Steve Cerruti, and Dylan Berkey

for our behind-the-scenes production and more. Thanks to Waz. Thanks to Danny and Craig. Thanks to Matt Bellany. I will see you on the Prestige TV feed this weekend. You might see me on the Ring or Gambling feed on Friday. And we'll see you on Sunday with Priscilla. Another two-parter coming.

Can't wait. Great basketball this weekend. Go Celtics! On the wayside I'm a person Never lost it I don't have To ever forget