The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Tatum/Brown Convo, Indy in Trouble, Kyrie’s Revival, and Best Defenses Ever With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and NBA Hall of Famer Isiah Thomas

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan and Rob Mahoney to discuss the Celtics' Game 2 win over the Pacers and whether the series is already over with Tyrese Haliburton's injury (2:51). Plus, an awesome Mavericks-Timberwolves series (34:40), the Cavaliers fire head coach J.B. Bickerstaff, the NBA coaching carousel, and more (52:11). Finally, Bill talks with two-time NBA champion Isiah Thomas about the uniqueness of Kyrie Irving, the all-time greatest NBA defensive teams, Pistons stories, how the Mavericks and Timberwolves match up, and more (1:14:24). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Isiah Thomas, Chris Ryan, and Rob Mahoney Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

coming up, just a crap load of basketball. Yeah. Next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way if you were wrong. You could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel like to catch a pass, same game parlays,

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Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember.

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or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday. We did Back to the Future Part 2. This coming Monday, Memorial Day, we are doing Fast Times at Ridgemont High. It's going up Monday night. You will also be able to watch it on our YouTube channel, Ringer Movies. Also, I have my own YouTube channel if you want to watch clips from this podcast and shorts and some other stuff. It is youtube.com slash at Bill Simmons. And speaking of Ringer stuff, I popped on another podcast that's going up over the weekend,

I think on Friday, the Prestige TV podcast. There's no Prestige TV right now. So we've been messing around doing Hall of Fame stuff, doing Bridgerton. We did Abbott Elementary. We're just doing TV shows we like until Prestige comes back. The Bears coming back in a month, so we'll be fine. But Julia Libman and I celebrated the 30th anniversary of the greatest two-part episode in the history of Beverly Hills 90210, Mr. Walsh Goes to Washington. Yeah, that's coming for you on Friday. We broke down season four, culminating in a part two,

crazy 90210 episode from 30 years ago. And if you like that show, I would highly recommend this one. So that is on the Prestige TV podcast. On this podcast, Chris Ryan, Rob Mahoney. We're going to talk about Indiana, Boston tonight. Hal Burton, who looks like he might be done for the series. We'll see if they announce that officially.

We have a lot of NBA subplots for you. And then after that, I brought on old friend, Hall of Famer, Isaiah Thomas to talk about Kyrie Irving, best defenses of all time. And a few other things. It's all basketball. It's all next. I'm going to bring in Pearl Jam. I wanted to mention Pearl Jam, the forum. Last night I went and it was an absolutely awesome, awesome show. My old editor and friend, Kevin Jackson from ESPN, we used to work together, pitched to way back when. Giant Pearl Jam fan.

He's from Seattle. And he said he's been to, I think, I think it was 44 Pearl Jam shows, 44 or 54. He said it was one of the top four shows he's been to. The new album is great. So the energy from that plus the catalog, it was just a great, great, great show. They are still at the peak of their powers.

They really are. I was so impressed. I had such a great, great, great show. They are still at the peak of their powers. They really are. I was so impressed. I had such a great time. And I say this with as much pride as I could possibly muster. Here they are, Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this 742 Pacific Time. Just watched Game 2, Indiana, Boston. A series that might be over. Rob Mahoney is here.

Chris Ryan is here. Chris Ryan asked if he could drink a beer during this. I said, yeah, because it looks like the Eastern Finals might end up sucking. Hal Burton leaves the game. Same leg, same hamstring as before. CR, if you're the Pacers, you're up three, inbounding the ball in game one. You're feeling awesome. Then 48 hours later, you're down two games to nothing and your best player

seemingly has re-injured the same thing that knocked him out for a lot of the middle of the season. Thoughts? Got him right where I want him, if I'm Rick Carlisle. The old rope-a-dope. Soften him up. Make the Jays think it's all over. Time, Nemhard.

The Celtics will never be more vulnerable to a flurry of Andrew Nemhard eight-foot jumpers. I would feel pretty heartbroken. You know, when we were getting into halftime and it just felt like the Celtics should be up by 22 points. And I was like,

man, they're not dying. They're just hanging out. And Siakam's having this crazy breakout game and maybe a little bit of Boston nerves creeping in just like last time. Between the barrage of threes, Tatum coming

back to life, and then the Halliburton injury, you don't want to say it's over, but it's over, Rob. It is over. If Halliburton can't play, it is kind of that simple. Look, there's trade-offs to that. Tyrese Halliburton has been, in a lot of ways, the Celtics' easiest path to offense at times

in this series. Putting him in the action has been really good for them, but the Pacers are not the same team without him. And I thought Boston in particular, they cranked up their defense, I thought, overall in this game. We think of the Pacers as primarily a jump-shooting outfit, but they were, I think, second in this game. We think of the Pacers as primarily a jump-shooting outfit, but they were, I think, second in the league in

points in the paint this year. Boston dominated the points in the paint in this game. It was a lot of dancing side-to-side all night for Indiana, and it took a heroic effort from Pascal Siakam to keep them in the game. And if you can't have your best player on top of an effort like that for any

number of games in this series, I think that's going to be all she wrote. So they get Siakam. It's like Bruce Brown. It's a crappy pick in this year's draft. Yeah. And a couple extra firsts. Yeah, I think two picks this year

and then the 2026 Pacers pick, I believe. Right. And he's a free agent, but they're going to re-sign him. Unless... I don't know, Chris. we'll talk about Philly later, but. Oh, good. I'm glad I had a purpose here. Yeah.

Who's going to write the Siakam? Could he go to Philly? Question mark, question mark, question mark story. Maybe that'll be in like two weeks. But Siakam, when we do the Ringer 100, Rob. Yeah. It's one of those guys you're making the list and you go ah yeah he's one of the 50 best players in the league and it felt like a lot of teams could have gotten him you watch him

today he's going toe-to-toe with tatum and brown and he's just you know he's a good player i do wonder like zach low wrote about this for espn about the derrick white trade and the mechanics of that and the josh hart trade and these trades where it seems like people are overpaying for guys who aren't like the Donovan Mitchell, you know, Rudy Gobert type massive trades. And is this kind of the new inefficiency? What do you think of that thesis? I mean, clearly those two guys in particular are culture setters. They're not just great players, but they redefine a lot of the way your team operates and the energy and the spirit that they play with. I think the problem with that sort of philosophy as a league-wide takeaway is there aren't a ton of those guys out there.

There are very good role players, but guys who slot in and do their job and go to work and go home. There aren't a lot of Derek Whites just sitting around. And so I think that's what makes him so valuable. And what makes him so valuable to the Celtics is these guys aren't just everywhere, but when you can get them, they seem undervalued until they mean everything for your team. Yeah, and I think the role players face the same fate

as high-end draft picks or all-stars where it's like, it's an environmental thing. I mean, like PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford, I would cut off my left hand to have either one of those guys playing on the Sixers, but I wouldn't have been able to tell you that

at the trade deadline. Yeah. Because you need a backup center because your real center doesn't play that much? Is that why you would sacrifice a hand? That's your free hit.

So that's one. That's it? Yeah. That's one. And then Boston? Yeah. That's one. And then Boston Chris is going to come out. You think you're better than me? You think you're better than me? The PJ Washington thing,

I still don't totally understand because I don't understand how you could watch a guy on a bad team where everybody's just going for their own stats basically for a few years and then just kind of instinctively know, even we're watching it in real time. I didn't feel like he was that guy in February or March, April, there were some signs. But Rob, did you see him becoming like this Robert Horry type potential guy for a championship team? What were the signs? I mean, there's clearly signs in skill set, right? And we've been talking about

those for years. It's the reason why we've been talking through P.J. Washington trades for season after season after season. What he can do is theoretically appealing to lots of teams. But it still seemed pretty theoretical to me until we saw it in Dallas. And Gafford is a similar exercise except as an energy big instead of a stretch

big. It is hard to read guys in those situations. In theory, teams are doing background. They're trying to talk to everyone that they can to get information on what these guys' actual work habits are. But realistically, I still think it's a bit of a crapshoot as far as

that goes. You're going to strike out with some of those players you try to acquire, and you're going to hit the jackpot with your P.J. Washington too. I think what Dallas did well is they did identify guys who could play with Luka and Kyrie very, very well and who don't necessarily need

the ball on a really consistent basis to be able to summon lots of energy and play with a lot of energy. So that's something you can pick out on tape as to whether it's going to be a perfect kind of cultural fit every single time. I mean, I'm as lost as anybody.

See, Chris's team doesn't think this way because they're all about three all-stars. Who's the third? I don't know. Tobias? It's Paul George. He's dying to leave Los Angeles. We'll talk about that later. Can we talk, see how you're a narrative guy?

Yeah. We've talked narratives a few times. I'm a narrative guy, but just don't skip me when it comes to the legacy, because I'm also a legacy guy. You're a legacy and a narrative guy. Interesting. People are bored already with this Boston, Indiana series.

So Boston wins game one and it still turns into a two-day Tatum referendum. And I know from a Celtics organization all the way up standpoint, they're really frustrated with the Tatum referendum. And I know from a Celtics organization all the way up standpoint, they're really frustrated with the Tatum coverage. From the sense he's 26 years old, he scored more playoff points than any player in his first seven years ever. He's made three first team all-NBAs. He made first all-team NBA this year. As an all-around guy, he's been really impactful and has gotten better at that year after year. And if there's a nitpick, he's been really impactful and has gotten better at that year after year. And if there's a nitpick, it's something I've talked about over and over again,

which is that his three point shooting just hasn't been good enough. And I think I saw, I looked up his game log, his last 14 games before tonight, he was 24% in the playoffs from three. Tonight he was one for seven, but he's carrying himself like he's this 40 plus percent three point shooter. So if you're going to pick them on that, great. But the all around game is really good. Is he Luca? Is he Giannis? Is he, is he, uh, he's not, he's not, is he LeBron in 2013? He's not, but is he in the vicinity of where Kevin Durant was on those OKC teams? He is. Maybe he's not as good as Durant was, but in terms of being an impactful forward. I don't ever have the spiritual experience watching Jason Tatum that I did watching Kevin Durant.

We're not talking about that. I'm talking numbers and impact. Okay. You asked about narrative. Kevin Durant was the literal MVP in the seasons you're talking about. I get it. I love Kevin Durant. I'm just saying from seasons you're talking about. I get it. I love Kevin Durant. I'm just saying from a numbers standpoint, he's in the vicinity.

And from a winning standpoint, he's been incredibly successful as the best player in a team that over and over again is in the top four of the top two. And yet now we've hit the point where people are like, fuck this. He's not that good. And you could feel it the last couple of days based on what happened in game one. We talked about it in this podcast where if Brown doesn't bail him out on that three, it's two days of Tatum, Tatum, Tatum,

what the hell's going on with this guy? Which is what it turned into being anyway. So then he sucks in the first half of game one. What do you think, CR? I'm thinking that this guy probably is not basing the level of competition that he needs to. And I was thinking that the guy probably is not basing the level of competition that he needs to. And I was thinking that the whole night

watching this game, that first game was really fun, you know, and it was really exciting. And, you know, it was like watching Keystone Cops out there at the end. But when it comes to like watching the Western Conference playoffs and watching what it's done

to some of these guys and how it's made them raise their game, or in Kyrie's case,, revive his game to some extent. And just watching these guys reputationally, but also obviously performance-wise, have to step up because they can't screw up or screw around the way Tatum did in the first half of this game.

And yeah, is it unfair? Sure. But I actually... Even for a while tonight, I was trying to imagine if Tatum and Siakam were on like swap teams and like how we would think about those guys differently and like what would Jason Tatum on a like I'm trying to drag a mid-market team to relevance and just throw it all on my back kind of thing would be and what what his sort of persona would be and how it would be different I think that Tatum just suffers from being like exactly who you just described, which

is like the sixth or seventh best player. And I don't know, I don't really think he's that cool. Like, I think that's also a thing that happens is like he doesn't have that cool of a game. It's a it's very like drudgery. It's like a lot of drudgery to watch. So that I think is like is like mounting up against him. But, you know, he had a good second half.

I mean, they just bodied those guys in the second half. Like this is this. This thing is over. There's also that thing going on with him and Brown where they do make each other's lives easier in certain ways.

But really their primary value to each other is in games like this, where Tatum can be off for a half or three quarters, and Jalen Brown can just pick everything up and make it work. And it wasn't just the scoring, but he was the driving force

leading to all those threes for Boston too. You don't really see that in a lot of other star situations. A lot of the other ones are built in some way to be more directly complementary. Even when you think about Luka and Kyrie, for example, their games fit together

in a way that Tatum and Brown don't necessarily. I'm not saying those guys don't work, don't fit, or can't win a championship. Yeah, they like each other. Like all those things. Yeah.

Clearly, it works at a really high level, but it doesn't work at a level that augments both of them and makes them really, really pop. And so when we're talking about what's missing, some of it is that pop. And some of it is the fact

that there are just five or six guys who are better than Jason Tatum right now. And that's okay. And frankly, that might not stop Boston from winning the title anyway. Right. Three first team All-NBAs ain't nothing. But I have a...

And I'm going to say this. I just want people to know this is a joke. But a friend of mine, we always joke about Jalen Brown. He's basically like the middle brother in the family. Jason Tatum's the older brother. So when Tatum has a game of mine, we always joke about Jalen Brown. He's basically like the middle brother in the family. Jason Tatum's the older brother. So when Tatum has a game like tonight, the first half and Jalen's having a game like he's having, we start joking like, oh my God, this is the Jalen Brown dream game. These guys have been awesome teammates. They pick each other up, but it's just

kind of funny back to what Rob said. It is like a little bit of a seesaw when one guy's down, the other guy goes up and vice versa. And that's a good thing. And when they're home and together, the Celtics are completely unstoppable. But Jalen was awesome today and there was a little sauce behind it. We're taping this before the press conferences

after the game, but he didn't get all NBA. And I voted for him. I made the case for him during the awards. I've also, there's been years where I haven't voted for Tatum for as the highest team. Like I, I really try to be, you know, take all the biases out in this case. Like I felt like they won 64 games mainly because of those two guys and mainly because those guys sacrificed a lot. And Booker made it. And I just think there's no way Jalen

was worse than Booker this season when you think he never chased his stats. He always did whatever was best for the team. And the team was super successful. They were successful because of those two guys and how hard they played night after night after night and how durable they are. And if we're just not going to reward that

with the All-NBA, I don't know what the All-NBA is for anymore then. It's for money now. So winning doesn't matter? It's a stat award now? Well, it's a contract award, which is kind of perverted in the first place because it just becomes like this thing

that's tied to compensation in a way that is like, you know, I don't have a vote. I wouldn't even know what to do with myself if I had a vote. And it was like, this guy's either going to make 65 million extra dollars or not, like based on whether or not I think he's better than Devin Booker. That's crazy. Right. Especially when you put, look, we don't need more media members complaining about the responsibility of voting for these things. But I'll say, given what we're talking about now and what we're choosing to award and reward, you want to reward players

who are sacrificing for their teams to win. If more money is going to be handed to somebody, let it be the people who are giving up so that their teams can be better. And yet, we do simplify it with the stats. We do simplify with very... Often, it's a very basic box score type production and who put up those numbers

in a flashier way than somebody else. And Jalen got the short end of the stick in that regard. But I agree with you. He's like, he had a better season than Devin Booker. God knows he's a better defender than Devin Booker. And that's a big part of the Tatum conversation too that I think we gloss over a little too easily. Really, really good defender.

It has to be a part of the story with those guys. Yeah, it's a case where the stats have kind of gone wrong because Booker, who if you didn't have league pass and you just lived in like a shack somewhere in Alaska and you just looked at box scores, you'd be like, oh yeah, he's one of the best 15 players. That team had a fucked up chemistry all year, which he has to have at least a small part of.

I didn't really feel like he made anybody else on his team better. The team was really, compared to what we all thought was going to happen with them, I think they were pretty disappointing. And Jalen, all he did all year was he guarded all types of players, really took challenges on. There was games where he guarded Zion. I thought he had a really good season. Sure, he's frustrated. I've been watching him for eight years. He'll do some things where you're like, why'd you take that shot? Or, oh my God, Jalen hasn't taken a shot in five minutes, so you know this one's going up. Yeah, everybody's got flaws. Everybody's annoying sometimes.

But that guy's a winning player. And he's the second biggest reason they went 64 and 18 right now in the playoffs they are 10 and 2 so this team is 74 and 20 and they had one all nba player meanwhile the suns and the lakers had four like what are we doing what what is this and then the other thing i was thinking with the ballot is like let's vote for mvp let's vote 10 places because we need the forwards and the guards. Like the Jalen was one of the best five or six forwards in the league. If we can't use the all NBA things, capture as a snapshot, who are the best guys at the different positions, then we're, we're doing something wrong. Why are we only voting for five spots for the MVP?

Expand that to 10. And that's a better kind of litmus test for the 10 most impactful players. And then we have the All-NBA teams. Anyway, I thought this was a big reason why Jalen kicked ass tonight because it's offensive that he didn't make the team. Anyway, that's my rant. CR, any thoughts? I know you hate the Celtics.

I do hate the Celtics. I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I mean, to the extent that I think that these kinds of all-NBA slots are like black and white and you can kind of pick this out, I do think that Jalen Brown had a better season than Devin Booker, from my opinion.

Just as a league pass, colon, night country guy in an Alaskan shack, you know, who watched 10 games this year. I agree. Yeah, if that's a beat, by the way, I am signing up for the Alaskan shack beat. I agree. Yeah. If that's a beat, by the way, I'm signing up for the Alaska Shack beat. I'm into it. Sounds great.

Bill, what do you think about the idea, though, about every other night, it's like you're watching the Western Conference playoffs and it feels like you're on a complete bender because it's so awesome and everybody's flying all over the place. The crowds are going crazy. It feels like we're

in the front seat of these two emergent franchises that are really finally taking the leap. Don't you think the Celtics are getting punished a little bit because nobody's really... They didn't get the Knicks and they didn't get the Sixers and they didn't get the Bucs and they're just playing the hand that they're dealt?

Didn't this happen to LeBron for eight straight years? It did, but LeBron was like, we're all sitting here waiting for you to catch Jordan. I feel like LeBron's greatness was so amplified from the second he got in the league. I know there was always a lot of like, you win

the big game, but I don't know. I feel like those Pacers heat, like those, there were some series in the Eastern Conference that were fun and this just feels like Yeah, but think about the reasons. We lost Giannis and we lost some of Dame and the Bucks get knocked

out. Yeah. And maybe now Halliburton. Yeah. Embiid, Halliburton, Cleveland, like might've had a puncher's chance with Mitchell. He misses the last two games of that series. So I think from an injury standpoint, the Celts have been about as lucky as it gets, but this is like an NBA thing where you look at the Lakers in the 1980s, where all the good teams are in the East, right? You have the Celtics, you have the Sixers, you have Milwaukee, and then you

have Detroit and even Atlanta. And then you go to the other side with the West. And it's like, their two biggest threats in the entire eighties are the Mavericks who immediately become disappointing. And Roy Tarpley has a whole cocaine thing. And they're a threat for like one playoff series. And then that goes away. Rob knows those teams. But that was like the up and coming awesome team and it just didn't happen. And then the other team was Houston who actually beat them in 86 with Samson Olajuwon. And then the next year, drug scandal, Samson gets hurt and those guys disappeared too. And the Lakers never get tested. This is just kind of how it happens. You look at the West, OKC, Dallas,

Denver, Minnesota. those are four of the five best teams in the league. And they just, for whatever reason, are clustered in the West. Golden State couldn't even get in the playoffs. This is why they need to do this 1-16. Oh, you're going there? Yeah, what the hell?

Grownups, man. I've got like nine streaming services. I can get a taco delivered to my house. Can we send that idea to Zasloff? He's trying to match some offers. Zasloff's like, I'll match one for 16. 2.6. I will say, Bill, though, think about how far you had to pull back to find the Western Conference team not being able to prove themselves against quality competition. If we're going back to Roy Tarpley, it illustrates something important,

which is basically during my entire lifetime, the Western Conference has been pretty significantly superior to the East. And there's some systemic reasons for that. There's some trend reasons for that. Part of it, honestly, is LeBron beating the snot out of so many would-be teams for so long they basically dissolved.

That's a part of that equation. But I don't know. The West being better than the East is pretty much NBA business as usual. Well, the LeBron thing, the Bulls were the team. The Bulls were going to be the rival. And Rose gets hurt at the beginning of the 2012 playoffs

right as we're headed toward an absolute awesome bloodbath in the Eastern Finals. We don't get to see that. The Bulls get basically pulled away. The Celtics get old. And it just kind of never happened. And then, you know, for whatever reason,

a lot of the talent started coming in on the West side. I think the East could rally next year because you figure Milwaukee would be better you figure Philly once you guys get Paul George and Pascal Siakam that team's gonna be

absolutely loaded they have four all-stars yeah Orlando's one guy away am I on the bench? like what are we doing to fill out the team? we'll see what happens

with Cleveland but I do think the East will be in better shape but it also speaks to the pressure now on this Boston team, you know, to just basically handed this gift horse

with these three series in a row. And even like the Knicks, who I think could have been a little bit bitchy for them, right? And then, you know, by the time we get to the third quarter of game seven, even Brunson has broken hand. Yeah.

So, I don't know. We'll take a break. Lots more to cover. For the NBA playoffs, Fando is giving all customers two chances to bring home a big win with a no-sweat same-game parlay every weekend of the playoffs. Just place an SGP on any playoff matchup.

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Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. We never got the answer on one thing I want to know with Tatum. Has he hit a ceiling yet? Or is there one more level to go? Because I still feel like at age 26,

I still feel like he's a superstar work in progress. Rob's a little dubious of that. I am too. Yeah. If nothing about his context changes. So if he's still going to play in this post-Brad team, the way Joe Mazzulla has them play with lots of threes...

Are you doing the Doris first person thing again? I started to, and then I had to switch out because I know that drives you crazy. No, I like it. I like it so much. Joseph Mazzulla. I think that this is who he's going to be

if this is the way the Celtics play if this is the way the Celtics play and this is the way the Celtics roster is made up. Yeah. What do you think, Rob? I think it's reasonable to expect subtle but meaningful improvement. Little things on the edges, little things in terms of his mentality or the balance of a team.

But at this point in their career, most guys kind of are who they are by that age, especially if you've had the opportunities in terms of offensive creation that he's had. It's one thing if you're coming up as a role guy and suddenly you're thrown into a dramatically different context, as Chris is saying, and your whole career transforms. Jason Tatum's been a star for a long time.

And to his credit, he's done a lot with it. But I think the reason that the Celtics would eventually get over the hump would not be that he is a dramatically different player. It's just that they win a couple more games that they otherwise would have lost. Maybe he has a couple fourth quarters that he might not have had in a previous run. But ultimately, I think this is who he is. And that player is really damn good and maybe good enough. He's an excellent one level below the top guys in the league guy who is a streaky three-point shooter

and we saw game six Philly game seven Philly last year we saw game six Milwaukee the year before when he's feeling it it's magical

but it it seems like it comes and goes um a lot more comes and goes frequently than some of the other

great players so I would say the last piece... But do you think that that's a system thing or that's a him thing? You know? Because there's something about... I was watching whatever... I think it was towards the end

of the last Dallas series against the Thunder. And Kyrie had some game where he had like 11 points or something. I can't remember. Yeah, he had a couple of those. But when the game's over, all the guys are freaking out about Kyrie

and what he did and what you don't see. And it's like, Kyrie did this and then he said this before the game. I think that Tatum kind of lacks that. Nobody's going to go after this game. Or if Tatum had a bad game. I don't think Tatum has that, like, man, you guys don't understand. Jason galvanized us and he did everything on the court but score. It kind of feels like

it's a little bit more like if he gets his 26 to 30, it's like a normal Jason Tatum night. And if he doesn't, he's he's shit. You agree with that, Rob? I mean, shit seems strong. No, but like that's the way that that's the way that I mean, it's that's how Boston reacts

to stuff, you know, like, yeah yeah the irony of that is I think Tatum does do a lot of those sorts of things but doesn't necessarily give the energy or get the credit narratively speaking game one was like that he was he had a really good defense rebounding game and got no credit for it after I suspect if you zoom all the way in and go into film session kind of mode and diagnose every Celtics play, you will find all sorts of small things that he does, whether it's pull over a superior defender so that Jalen Brown can attack,

whether it's the way he rotates on defense to shield other guys and protect them. He's doing all that stuff. It's just guys like Kyrie have a mystique and will always get the respect because of that mystique. Tatum, for all the reasons we've illuminated, just kind of Kyrie have a mystique and will always get the respect because of that mystique. And Tatum, for all the reasons we've illuminated, just kind of doesn't have that.

And it changes the way we talk about him, but it doesn't necessarily change what he's offering on the court. I think the guy he is on the court does have a lot of those qualities. Yeah. I'm a Tatum defender. I'm way more glass half full than I think most people.

The three-point shooting drives me a little nuts, but it's like those actors. It's like Robert Duvall. There's not a lot of Robert Duvall conversations, right? Incredible actor, but it's more fun to talk about Pacino and De Niro and Jimmy Conn. Nobody's like, oh man, Duvall.

The judge. He was killing it. We're like, oh man, Duvall. What are you talking about? We are, but most people aren? We're like, oh man, Duvall, what are you talking about? We are, but most people aren't. It's like, oh, Duvall pod.

It's Duvall Hall of Fame. It's just never happening. Please title this episode, Jason Tatum, colon, NBA's Robert Duvall, question mark, and see if it's the worst or best episode ever.

Well, I'll ask you guys this. The Netflix series that they're doing. Yeah. Tat, I'll ask you guys this. The Netflix series that they're doing. Yeah. Tatum's one of the guys. That quarterback's version or whatever. LeBron's in it. The series that they're doing. Anthony Edwards is in it.

Who do you think's going to steal the show? Anthony Edwards. Yeah. He already stole one Netflix show. Right. It's just... Tatum's going to be in it and you'll get to know him better. And by the way, his story is awesome. His mom, her whole background and all the ways that she's just around his life and all the things she does. She's really unique and a really cool lady.

People are going to be like, where's Ant? Can we go back to Ant's house? He's playing video games. Like, what's going on with that guy? Ant's decided to take up soccer. Come on, let's go back to Ant. Somebody just challenged Ant in wiffle ball. What?

So, Indiana, is this a sweep, Rob? Let me say I have no Halliburton. Let's say Halliburton's gone for the series. Is it a sweep? Oh, yes. They're going to get one in Indy. I think there's like a crazy... I feel like Boston will blow in an Indy.

Like fast break out of just absolutely insane 130-120 game. It took our guy Joe Maz a Luke Cornett injury to finally play Brissette in a series against his old team when he's the perfect bench guy to come in and switch on defense and just play with energy

and be around the rim. It's like, gee, I wish we had somebody on that team. Oh, wait, we do. It's Brissette. He never plays. I'm on more text change over the last seven months. Probably the most random sentence in all my texts over the last eight months is,

hey, why doesn't he play Brissette more? Just going both ways. People texting me that, me texting other people. So finally Brissette played. And I think he was like plus 17 in 10 minutes at one point. I feel like Boston will blow an indie game. The fact that you're just, their history will be just to kind of

not take a half seriously and all of a sudden they're down 15. I think that's very possible. But what they've shown in this series and all their series so far is that they win most of those games anyway. Sometimes they will blow one, but without Halliburton,

I just don't know. I do think this game, look, the Pacers are not a heavyweight opponent in the current form for a team like the Celtics. They're just not really on that level in terms of talent.

But a game like this one and walling off, you know, the kind of points in the paint thing I mentioned earlier, getting back in transition, like playing Indiana is a test of your discipline as a team.

Can you do this for 48 minutes? Can you sprint back for 48 minutes, put a wall in front of these guys, make them dance around side to side and prevent them from getting to the rim? The fact that they can do that and they just showed it, even in a game where they're honestly

not playing great, it doesn't hearten my opinion of Indiana's chances. I just don't feel good about where the Pacers are right now, despite the fact that they nearly stole game one, despite the fact that Pascal Siakam almost stole this one before things

kind of went sideways on them. Yeah, I thought, I mean, it's honestly, I'm just going to try and avoid Indiana style, enjoy Indiana style of play because Boston, animus aside, like that's a very animus aside.

That's a good name for a podcast. Animus aside. One of the two. Basically, people who hate something being like, I'll hand, I'll give them this, you know, here's your flowers, but I hate you.

Yeah. It's like Indiana just plays a style of basketball that I find refreshing, you know, ripping it out on a make flying up the court, uh, taking these little mid range twos when they, when they have them rather than always kicking out. I just find it really enjoyable. You're going to have to... That's going to basically be your takeaway from the Indiana. It's like,

basically, thanks for playing and that was entertaining. The Boston thing, it's like... It'll probably be like five. I think Indiana will get one in Indy. But this is the story of the Celtics, isn't it? It's like the other team has a fun style of play. The other stars glimmer in a way that Jason Tatum might not.

But if they win, no one can take that away from you. That stuff doesn't matter if you win. The Celtics have played 106 playoff games with Tatum and Brown. So there's just a familiarity. It's their little bit of a no-win. I would argue when they have Porzingis, this is a really fun team to watch. I really

enjoyed watching them when they had everybody. And Holiday and White are just an absolute delight. They're almost like they could have been great 2004 Patriots. I'm a big Drew Holiday fan. Those guys are just winning players.

And the fact that the Bucs fans were like, oh yeah, good luck. Wait till playoff Drew shows up. And it's like, you mean playoff Drew, the guy that won a title for you and threw one of the great alley-oops of the history of the league? That guy?

Yeah, we'll take him. That sounds great. Rob, you talked about Luka on the Ringer NBA show on group chat. Yeah. An excellent program last night. Luka took over in the fourth quarter. I asked, Isaiah Thomas is coming on later.

I asked him this question, but I'm going to ask both of you the same question. Does Minnesota have anybody to guard Luka Doncic? Quietly kind of no. Yeah, quietly kind of no. Despite the fact that they have some of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA and some of the best interior defenders in the NBA. But I think we saw kind of what the shape of that matchup is going to be, which is

Jaden McDaniels has incredible length and is going to make Luka shoot over the top of him. But every time Luka just wanted to bump him off and get into a little rockback jumper, he can get that anytime he wants. And he's great at that shot. And if you can't take that away from him, I think

you're going to be in a really tough spot. But maybe it ultimately comes down to that. Maybe Minnesota's defense by the end of the series is not putting two on the ball with Luca, is not letting Gafford and Lively beat them inside. They're also doing a good job taking away the corner threes in particular and they're going to live with that stuff with Luka

but I wouldn't feel great about trying to live with that. He's too good at those shots. Yeah, if you're talking generational defenses and some of the great ones, CR, the Bulls could have thrown Pippen on him. The Pistons absolutely could have thrown Rodman on him. The other Pistons could have thrown T have thrown Rodman on him.

The other Pistons could have thrown Tayshaun Prince on him. And Minnesota, which I think has a chance to at least swim in that swimming pool, but it's weird. They don't have the Luka guy, which means they also don't have the guy to guard 2012-13 LeBron, right? If that's the same thing,

like the big six foot eight physical guy who can shoot over a few. But I mean, this is, if you're talking greatest defenses ever, like the other defenses had guys to handle the six eight freak guy. And we'll see if Minnesota does. I didn't see it last night.

I'll say this. If I was a Minnesota fan, I would be feeling okay about that game because you're talking about a team who just came out of a seven-game series against the defending champs. I couldn't agree more. They went on the road in Denver

and have to go home. They've basically been fettered for the last 48 hours. Everybody's just like, I can't believe it. This happened. These guys are here. Right. This is the greatest win in the history of the Minnesota

franchise. You're doing all that. They catch a Dallas night on a night where Luka decides to just play and not go on tilt. I felt like relatively speaking, I saw Luka hit the deck a few times. He's bleeding from his knees, getting shoved around a little bit. He actually kept playing and played some

defense too. I was like, that's about as close as you can get to being a perfect Luka game. And they were within touching distance of Dallas. So if I was Minnesota, I'd be like, we'll catch our breath. The calls are not always going to be exactly the

same like they were. And I think that more often than not, Luka gets distracted by his own temper in those games where there's a lot of physical contact. So, yeah. Raheem had some, Raheem, I can't find it, but Raheem had some good stats about the team coming off the brutal seven-game series

and then having to play two nights later in the next series, and it's like basically they're batting 40%. Yeah. If I'm Minnesota, the Nas Reed alley, or not alley, put back dunk,

which may or may not have been above the rim, but it felt like that was a basket. It's a tie game. Wait, the cat one? The cat one, yeah. I'm sorry, cat.

Yeah, cat. They would have been tie game 70 seconds left and it felt like when they didn't get that, I was like, oh. But they didn't execute it all down the stretch they're gonna play better

offensively the next game Edwards was dead Luca hit five fucking crazy shots in the fourth quarter I'm I'm I'm with UCR I'm okay if I'm Minnesota I'm like we got well we split this I think this is gonna go seven I think this is gonna be a long series and

as much as we were like, the Denver Wolves series is the title, this is going to be some of the best basketball we see in the playoffs. I can't wait for the rest of the series. It feels like a long one, but I will say the thing about, even as you were laying it out, Chris, Luca's temperament

and his ability to control the game and the shots he was getting to, and yes, those were tough shots, but all of that and really the game down the stretch and a lot of the game and the shots he was getting to. And yes, those were tough shots. But all of that and really the game down the stretch and a lot of the game in the body of it felt like it was within Luka's power to control. And that's kind of what would worry me if I'm the Wolves

is that Ant is still very much figuring out this matchup. And look, there's a lot of whiplash stylistically between how Dallas and Denver play on both sides of the ball. But Luka felt like he had this thing dialed in and it felt like he knew all the levers to pull, all the buttons to push. I think that's going to be the case.

And Ant is going to be kind of feeling around in the dark in the way that young stars do sometimes. Yeah, and that was actually, Rob, I can't remember if it's the last time we all potted together or when we talked about this, but with that Thunder series with the Mavericks, I was like, I don't really know if this is that close.

Like, Dallas almost won that in five other than the brain fart that they had in the second half giving up that huge lead, right, to the Thunder. I felt like Kyrie and Luka were like, we got this. And I feel like that that is, like, something that will emerge over the next couple of games

where it's just like, damn, how good is this backcourt? I mean, you guys are talking about it on group chat. This is definitely the best backcourt in the league. These guys might just be in the zone where they are like, we cannot really be beaten if we do our jobs and the role players do their jobs. So I honestly feel like

this is a coin toss. Yeah, that Game 5 of the Clipper series I went to and I left that series. And I think I said it to you, Rob, the next time we potted where I was like, uh, I said,

the series was a wrap. I thought the Mavs had figured them out. And really since the middle of that series, they kind of settled into the team they are. And part of it is because Derek Jones has really turned into, you know, they're even the rotation stuff has figured out Derek Jones and PJ Washington together. they kind of settled into the team they are. And part of it is because Derrick Jones has really turned into, even their rotation stuff has figured out. Derrick Jones and P.J. Washington together.

I still feel like Minnesota is going to win this series, but I would not bet on it. Because the thing that worries me is the Kyrie matchup. Luka, nobody can guard Luka, right? He's going to get his points. I don't really feel like there's... It's like, oh, it's too bad they don't have that guy who can guard Luka. But the Kyrie matchup is a more interesting kind of bad matchup for them because I don't think Conley can stay with him. Oh, no. So they're going to have to use... I think they're going to eventually have to end

up using McDaniels and wasting the McDaniels card on Kyrie to have to use, I think they're going to eventually have to end up using McDaniels and wasting the McDaniels card on Kyrie to try to take him out and then give Luca, Hey, if you're going to get 40 a game, we're just going to have to give it to you and just put a variety of dudes on Luca and take out Kyrie. That's what I would do.

If I, you know, take out Kyrie, make sure the roll guys don't be you. And if Luca is going to get 40 to 45 a game, so be it. But you can't have both of them go. So you got to take Kyrie out. There's also the version of this series

where Alexander Walker starts playing more just for that defensive matchup reason. The problem is his offense has not been in there lately. He can't shoot. And right now, with the way Minnesota is trying to attack, it's a lot of guys like him and Jaden McDaniels and even sometimes Cat, all kind of their secondary and tertiary guys attacking off the dribble in the paint with lots of bodies all swiping at them from the Mavs.

And they're losing the ball. They're not able to kind of be stable and strong going to the basket in those situations. And that's where you get into a lot of trouble when you have role players on the floor who can't quite shoot and can't quite be decisive when they try to drive. I don't know what they could do with that, but they only have so many options in terms of who else they could play. It's either you're pulling the Nas Reid.

It's either Nas Reid's music or Nikhil Alexander Walker's music because I don't really trust the Kyle Anderson minutes right now. They feel more than a little precarious to me. I disagree with Draymond that Kyle Anderson should not start over Gobert? Was that Draymond's take?

That was floated. Yeah. Incredibly neutral perspective as always from Draymond. Just why? I appreciate his perspective on these matters. One thing that was really cool about that game, both teams really already felt like they knew the other team.

Even you watch the way they're defending the lobs and stuff like that. Like Dallas had that great play at the end of the game when Conley tried to throw that lob to go bear and Dallas just read it and they jumped it and they tipped it away. But watching the team slowly take away the things the other team likes to do, and then it's just going to end up with individual excellence at some point during the series. And that's really favors Dallas. The reason I think Minnesota still, and that I'm not shaken by game one,

is I just don't think home court's going to matter in the series. Right. And it certainly doesn't seem to matter to Minnesota. Well, the bigger question to me is does home court matter anymore? Yeah.

Like Rob, what's your theory on this, Rob? What happened to home court? I don't know other than obviously the overriding factor right now is the NBA is in such a state of parity that what seems like home court, even from a one or two seed versus a six seed

or so, just isn't that big of a difference. And so when we're thinking about quote unquote favorites in series, the lines are kind of thinner than they usually are than maybe they've ever been before. Plus the three point shooting there's like more variance with the games. Yeah I bet I'm sure even like the quality of travel too is just like at the all time high and those guys

are not like uncomfortable when they're going places I don't know I mean I think that there's there's something to it for sure. The recovery stuff. Yeah. Honestly that's a big part of it like sleep science recovery like diet consistency There's something to it. The recovery stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, that's a big part of it. Sleep science, recovery, diet consistency. Players now are professionalized

in a way that they really haven't been in NBA history for decades. And so all these things coming together at a time where there's just better parity and better balance in the league, in part because of the collective bargaining agreement and the way the apron is functioning right now.

I think it's just putting us in a place where anybody can lose any game, no matter where you're playing. You know what I blame, CR? What's that? Everyone's too nice. We got to go back to the days when fans were unruly. Wow.

Yeah, well, you know what? Have a look in the mirror there, Billy Kosigan. Because your fans are kind of sitting on their hands a little bit. I heard some defense kids. Well, we don't know. But I can't be sure that those weren't being pumped in by ESPN to make it seem like Boston had a good atmosphere.

Our fans are afraid to yell. We don't want to offend the other team and potentially get thrown out. Sure. In this new NBA world. Why could that be in Boston? I have no idea. The old days of people sitting behind the Celtics bench just riding the players for

four quarters, like it's gone. Now it's just, you know, I was thinking back to the, like the, the eighties, it was so hard to go into somebody else's building and win a big game. Like if you did that, it was like when the Sixers beat the Celtics in 82, gave seven, it was like, holy shit. They came into the garden, like the Lakers beating the Celtics in 85 or pick a time like the Bulls going to beat the Lakers and in 91

when they're winning games their house is like oh my god and now it's like I honestly they might as well start playing these games in neutral stadiums play like the finals in Vegas like it's the fucking in season I don't want that but it does I mean I feel like anecdotally this is kind of like what the hockey in Vegas. Like it's the fucking in-season tournament. I don't want that. But it does. I mean, I feel like anecdotally,

this is kind of like what the hockey playoffs are like, where it'll just be kind of like, oh, they won two. And then this other team won three, including two on the road. And now it's this heavyweight slugfest. I think for the Western Conference too also, there's something incredible in the water

where almost everywhere you look look some team is probably like are we are we dreaming is this happening like if you're minnesota you have an ownership conflict you have a bunch of guys on that team that people had written off like go baron towns to some extent you know like yeah at least to be like this is who you are in this league and this is how far you'll go and now they've got this guy an guy and a coach in Finch who are pushing them beyond the limits of what they thought was going to be their careers, honestly. And to some extent

I think that's happening in Dallas too. Dallas is like Kyrie is having a full on career revival. Luka is actually doing it. And then they were surrounded by guys like Gafford and PJ Washington and Derek Lively. Every time now I'm about to just call somebody by their first

name and jump in my head. Derek Lively, this assemblage of talent is not like watching like, okay, it's another Clippers series. Let's see. Let's see what happens. It's just like, no, nothing's written here for this Western Conference playoffs

series. Every team is mega talented and also the no one believes in us team at the same time. Yes. Right. But this was the, there was a stretch in the 90s when the league was really deep

when, you know, like Houston won a game seven on Phoenix's floor. And yeah, like Indiana's going in MSG trying to steal a series with Knicks and they finally did it in 95. But I forget. What was the game? Oh, it was the Ray Allen game where the Spurs brought the champagne out, right?

Or the ropes. Yeah. The ropes came out. Yeah, when the Spurs. I remember in the 81 playoffs when the Celtics came back against the Sixers in game six, down 3-2. Sorry, Chris. I was four. Childhood drama.

We had lost 11 straight in the spectrum, and it felt like 58. It just felt like winning in the spectrum seemed like this incredible, impossible feat that was never going to happen. And then when we won game six, it was like, oh my God, we won in the spectrum. And it was the same thing when the Bruins would play the Canadians when I was a kid. In Montreal, it just seemed like insurmountable. Yeah.

I don't know if there's a basketball building like that. The Knicks fans would say MSG, but an MSG is an unbelievable atmosphere. It's so much fun. But I don't think teams are like, I'm so psyched out playing. This is my biggest mistake pick in Indiana in game seven, just to bet on. It's like, oh, the MSG crowd's going to psych them out playing. This is my biggest mistake picking Indiana in game seven, like just to bet on. It's like, oh, the MSG crowd is going to psych them out.

I don't know if teams get psyched out. I think MSG has that effect. I think that there are probably, there's like a handful of really good arenas in the NBA still, but I do think that the flattening and the sameness of all these,

all these like moderate arenas has made it so that there really isn't. Oh yeah. You don't walk in and you're like, Oh, it's so damp in here. Like, you know,

like, I don't know. Like, it doesn't feel like anything's ever just like, like something weird happened in this arena. It's like, no, everybody's having the same chicken tenders.

And like, it's, it's pretty much the same experience no matter where you go. The lighting is game. 45 years ago, Doug McRae and Jim were sitting in like row two screaming at Jake O'Donnell. Hey, Jake!

You think you're better than us? And Jake's terrified starting to call charges because things could get killed. We are on the cusp of some truly revolutionary takes here. We're at like the tasteless nature

of modern architecture. Yeah. Bill, you are a half step away from not just the fans being soft, but like Gen Z fans being soft. Yeah, that's true.

I want to be... We need more drinking. We need more binge drinking in games. That's why I'm having a beer now. I want them to seat at 1 through 16, Rob,

and then they have to go play at, uh, like soccer stadiums in Buenos Aires. You know, like, I need to get, like, atmosphere back in Buenos Aires. I need to get atmosphere back in the NBA. If no batteries are thrown at your game, it's not real. It doesn't count. So I would lean 51% Minnesota, 49% Dallas. I would not bet on it. I would bet on this series going at least six and probably seven. Do you have a lean, Rob, or do you want to see more basketball?

I mean, of course I want to see more basketball. No, but I mean, do you want to see more of the matchup before you have a lean, Rob, or do you want to see more basketball? I mean, of course I want to see more basketball. No, but I mean, do you want to see more of the matchup before you have a lean? My lean going in was Minnesota in seven. Yeah. And I will say I've budged slightly on that. Obviously, Dallas won,

so the math changes a little bit. I still think the Wolves are going to get well back into this series. It's just going to be a matter of whether they have enough and enough answers. And I think, I'll say say this I can see them falling short a little bit more easily now having seen the first game of it and seeing

like what is available for Dallas when all their stuff actually I was going to say when all their stuff is hitting but honestly it wasn't their threes weren't hitting really at all and the fact that they won a variance game that swung in Minnesota's way in so many directions I think puts them in a really good spot.

I still would lean Minnesota slightly, but I love Dallas' position in this series. Dallas keeps winning dumb games, which at some point, that becomes a skill, right? In these close, tight games, they keep pulling them out. What do you have, CR,

if you had to do percentages? I'm leaning Dallas, like 52-48, yeah. I wonder what the league wants if you gave Adam Silver a truth serum. What if it's rigged? Deep down, what does he want?

Deep down, what does he want? Well, DFW is a bigger market, I guess, if that's what we're basing it off of. But the Ant thing is pretty irrepressible at this point, right? I'm excited the Ant backlash is already starting, Rob. I just can't wait for Kyrie to be back in the garden, speaking of atmosphere.

I think that that... That would be incredible. Has the Ant backlash really picked up? It still feels like... Where was their Ant backlash? What part of the internet are you on? Oh, I'm on the Celtics Why Is Everybody Against Tatum part of the internet. You might as well be on

QAnon then. Nobody is responding to Ant. Ant went six foot 24 and they didn't say jack shit about him. That's what side I'm on. Cleveland fired JB Bickerstaff. So we're up to four coaches who were job preservation fired by the GM who was like,

hey, don't look this way. Kobe Altman? About to be five, probably, right? Who's the five? Well, I guess technically because if Monty Williams gets fired by the new layered in, Trajan Langdon got hired

to be the president of the Pistons. Oh, yeah, yeah. And they might fire. Yeah, Jalen used to have that joke when we all worked together about the keep getting them checks. Right. Monty would be the all-timer, right?

Just completely fucks up the Pistons for a year and gets $80 billion. It's like a sunk cost. Listen, the GM is with the owners. I make this point, I'm going to make it again. The GM's with the owners and the people that run the team way more than the coaches are.

And when things go wrong and the owner's like, hey, what the fuck? We traded five first rounders for Donovan Mitchell and Mark and who made an all-star team. Where aren't we better? The easiest thing to do is be like,

I don't know, man, this coach, what is he doing? And you're just buck passing, buck passing, buck passing. The bottom line is maybe Cleveland should be cleaning house, period. And I just feel like- Yeah, but they can't clean out the part of the house

that's probably the most detrimental, which is Gilbert. And Gilbert's probably reading Ishbia headlines and being like, I can fire a guy. Well, there was stuff today about how Mitchell, it's like leaning toward maybe signing the extension. So this might be the Ryan Rossello theory of he signs the extension and asks for a trade a year from now. But we already know from all the reporting that Garland, his representation, same as CR, he's represented by Clutch, that they might push for a Garland trade.

And it does feel like Cleveland's going to be the big pivot team for some trades this year. They might have a Jared Allen trade and a Darius Garland trade in the next like five weeks. And I don't know what those guys would fetch, but it's not going to be an insignificant amount. If your team like the Spurs and Garland's on the table, I'm like,

fucking let's go. Let's start trading. Rob, am I right? Isn't Garland the ideal Wemba Nyama guy? I love that fit for Darius Garland. Sick. So good. It would be such a great pairing. And that's honestly what's so weird. I'll say unusual about the JB Bickerstaff firing. Not that coaches don't get fired in this situation, but usually they get canned because you don't want to change the roster or you can't change the roster

that your hands are kind of tied behind your back as far as what you can do with trades or free agency. The Cavs feel very much like a team, like you're saying, that is poised to make significant deals to change the entire shape of their roster. And yet I guess they just want someone completely different

to kind of envision how to use all those parts. But that's not usually what we see out there. Well, Chris, we knew. We had a feeling when the Cavs got eliminated and eight minutes later, there was a 5,500-word story in The Athletic about all the terrible things in the J.B. Becker staff fair. So I can't say I was shocked.

The weird thing is that the coaching carousel and the coaching talent pool seems to be, I wouldn't say at an all-time low because I think there's some good coaches available, but you wouldn't be like, hey, fire our guy for this dude. Right. Right?

It's not like, I mean, honestly, it wouldn't be surprising i guess if vogel gets one of these jobs or something like that because of like his past success with the pacers and the magic but yeah uh and also winning a title but i think maybe vogel is better suited to coaching you know like a kind of like mid-table team like that than he is like maybe going back in again with another star-laden team. I feel like 25 of these guys are right around each other, right? Yeah, but this just doesn't

seem like a draft class of coaches that you'd be like, hey, I'll go on the hook for several million. I mean, Tom Gores, if he fires Monty Williams, he's going to owe him $60 million. That's a crazy build-a-foot for who? Who are you bringing in that you think is going to revolutionize

your culture in a way that Monte Williams couldn't? I get it. I get that it seemed crazy and that he wasn't playing Jaden Ivey and stuff like that. That there were problems, but that's a steep bill to pay. Well, there's no proven coaches in the market. The proven guys

are James Borrego and Kenny Atkinson like perfectly decent NBA head coaches with mixed records and if you're not batting for them then you're getting you know the lead assistant off somebody's bench then you're going for Sam Cassell and those are not the kinds of names that you envision as revolutionizing

your franchise even though they're perfectly good coaches but I mean money is money and there's only 30 of those jobs or whatever, so I understand why people do it. But if I was Mike Inori, I would be like, so I can be the lead assistant of Minnesota, or I can get fired in 18 months in

Detroit. I'll stay in Minnesota. You know what I really miss? The big inefficiency right now with all this is, you know, in the 80s and 90s, teams would splurge on college coaches and they'd be like, we've hired Lon Kruger. You missed this?

We've given Lon Kruger $12 million. You missed Rick Pitino? That's what we're missing? No, but I miss these college coaches coming in and just being terrible. It was always really fun. It's like, here comes PJ Carlessimo. Oh my God, he's being strangled by one of his really fun. It's like, here comes PJ Carlissimo. Oh my God.

He's being strangled by one of his own players. It would be fun if Andy Enfield was just hired as like by an NBA team. Why not? Yeah. We had Calipari. We had Patino. We, you know,

there was now, now it's like, it's just ring around the Rosie with these NBA assistants. So like the Lakers, let's say JJ is not the guy, even though we all know the hiring JJ, let's say JJ's not the guy, even though we all know they're hiring JJ. They go from Vogel to Darvin Ham and then James Borrego.

Like is there, so they're going to be still paying Vogel and still paying Darvin Ham. Yes. But then also getting Borrego, who's kind of in the same level as those other guys. Did they figure out the Ty Lue extension, the Clippers?

Yeah, we got to bring him back. He lost in round one in six games. Got to bring that guy back. NBA players are like, this dude is a genius. This guy's a genius. He's never made the finals with the Clippers. Well, he's not an orthopedic surgeon. He can't keep that team healthy. He can only just devise.

I don't know. He wasn't knocking my socks off in that Mavs series. I wasn't like, whoa, Ty Lue. No. Look at all the moves he's making. Is it more important as a coach

to be a genius or for your players to think you're a genius? Do his players think he's a genius? Because they kind of rolled over in the last two Clipper games. I don't really put that at Ty Lue's feet personally,

but you can. My bigger point is there's probably four coaches that matter. I think everybody else... Vogel won a title four years ago. He's had two jobs since. I think Carlisle's a good coach, but Carlisle was also

awful in Dallas for years and years. We were like, when are they going to fire this guy? I think he lost his fastball. Well, he also threw his point guard crazy, yeah. Yeah. And it seemed like he wore out his welcome. Rob, how many really good coaches are there? Is it less than six? I would say less than six that are significantly moving the needle for you. And honestly, at the bottom end, there's probably only two or three in the league at a given time that are actually that bad. And most fan bases are just so dialed

in on exactly what their coach is doing wrong or not doing that it gets a little stretched out of proportion. But I don't know. I don't see a lot of needle movers out there. Even if your coach is great at challenges, I mean, congrats. That's a couple possessions to swing a game. It's not an insignificant thing.

But it's not really changing who you are as a team. Those guys are what? Spoh is clearly in that group. Who else do we feel super confident is a dramatic, a transformational coach? I mean, is it Finch or is it Anthony Edwards? Why

is Minnesota where they are? Finch definitely has the demeanor that I think the team takes on. There's a calmness to him. Right? I think Kidd's done a really good job the last couple rounds. And I was never a huge fan of his. But Kidd was getting killed before,

like at previous stops, right? Right. And even like this year, he was getting killed. If you talk to any Mavericks fan in like February, they were flipping out about him. But, you know,

it's a relationships business. And the fact that he has Kyrie, this version of Kyrie, he gets some credit for that, right? You can say Kyrie got older and Kyrie's mature and Kyrie's in the right situation. And I think that the GM for Dallas

apparently like knew PJ Washington for a really long time and was like, I know that this kid has like another gear in him. He's just been in a bad team and in a bad situation. Yeah.

I think we're honestly at the point now where I would almost welcome in an era of coach trades. Because there's a bunch of guys who I think are good coaches or interesting coaches who are coaching the wrong team. Who comes to mind for you?

Well, I would love to see Popovich coaching a team of guys who are Olympic-level basketball players just to see, is he lost his fastball or is he just wasting the last few years of his career coaching guys who are obviously Wemby but not great players, right? Or at least not yet. Well, I believe he did give up the chance

to literally coach a team of Olympic-level basketball players this summer, right? Didn't he give up that spot to Kerr to coach Team USA? Yeah. But I would like to... I don't think they wanted him in France. There's just too much wine. I don't know if they trusted him. He's going to go off the wagon. I would like to see what would happen if Popovich coached the Lakers. I know that that would be Darth Vader coaching for the force or whatever. But like,

I, I just, I just would like to see what would, like, what would he do with LeBron and AD, you know? Uh, and then the same thing goes for like Quinn Snyder. I think his talents are kind of wasted in Atlanta. I think it would be cool to see him like coaching a different team. Yeah. Like Tibbs did a good job in New York, but at the same time, the entire team got injured by the end of it, as we were all joking about, man, that's a lot of minutes on these guys. And then now some of it is like Brunson breaks his hand. Like that's a fluke, but right.

Yeah. You know, OG and Roby playing 41 minutes a game and then getting hurt, I think was pretty easy to predict. He's not Cal Ripken. Any thoughts on any of the announcing stuff before we go? Did you like having five guys on a halftime show

that's two and a half minutes long? Do you like Chris Paul? I thought Chris Paul was good. I wish he had been on a show that didn't have five people on it. That seemed like a pretty like a no-brainer like not shock

that Chris Paul is just like pretty good at being on TV and talking about hoops. Yeah. I'm dumbfounded that they added Draymond to like, everybody's like inside the NBA. It's the best show ever. Why are we adding people to it? Like for just take Draymond out of it. Why are we adding any fifth human being to a show that we all loved already? What made them, this is what I don't understand with networks. Like why can't they just stay out of their own way? You know, like if you decide Chris Paul is, is, needs to be on countdown, then take one

of the other people out and have a four person thing. So you can have an actual conversation. But how could you choose? How could you choose? Well, I guess that would be impossible, but these over and over again, they just can't help themselves. They just have't help themselves. They just have to add stuff.

They have to change stuff. They have to overthink it. And meanwhile, somebody like Tim Legler, what did he do? One playoff game? And he was awesome. He's always awesome. He's like, yeah, let's get rid of him. No more playoff games for legs.

It's like, wow. He just told me more in that game than I've heard all year. So you're saying the sequel shows have a sequel-itis problem they're just overstuffing there's too much going on it has to be bigger it has to be a bigger cast every time yeah i think that's a good way to put it it's it's uh you know having had some had some experience being in this i don't think these guys can you can't just run it back it can't be be like, well, what are you doing this year? Eh, you know, it's not

broke. Don't fix it. Right. You have to have a wrinkle. Nobody wants to do that. Like, oh, here's our idea this year. We're going to do this. This year, we're going to... It's like, eh, maybe not. Well, especially with Draymond. If there's any risk of this being the swan song for inside the NBA,

and we're shoehor NBA. It is. There's contingencies being discussed out there as far as like, no, these are all the ways to continue. It won't be with Draymond. That's all well and good. I'm pro inside continuing. But if this is the end of this era, I want to see those guys go out on their own

terms, not with extra characters shoot in for the final season just to shake things up and make them interesting, especially when Draymond, a phenomenal basketball player with incredible insights to share if he wanted to share them,

is choosing not to do that and just grinding axes every broadcast. Right, he's just doing grudges. It'd be like the last year of the Sopranos. We've decided to add Draymond Green. It's like, wait, what?

Can we just find out what happened with Tony and Carbella? I mean, I think also just like, I hope that whatever iteration we get of Inside the NBA next on whatever network it's on, that they let those guys stretch out the way that they do. And yeah, like the Draymond part is... That won't be on ESPN. I'll tell you that much. Right.

To make the devil's advocate argument for ESPN, I think that they're not really trying to win they don't have this space. But to make the devil's advocate argument for ESPN, I think that they're not really trying to win the halftime show or pregame show experience. They're trying to win viral clips. So that's why they have Woj come out and be like, here's all the news you need to know.

And then they share that. And here's Stephen A ranting about something and they share that. And then, you know, like that's like what they're... I don't think that they're trying to blow our minds with some incredible panel talk. Yeah, that's why we have podcasts

like this one. Yeah. Like this very special time we've all spent together. Where you can hear about how Boston, the Boston fans have become too woke. Nobody said that. Participation trophy culture is ruining the NBA. Yeah. Bob Duvall. Overrated, underrated,

or properly rated. Bob Duvall. Overrated, underrated, or properly rated. Bob Duvall. Well, right now for the NBA, we have for the Eastern Finals, the Celtics are now... Jesus. It just says minus 1-0-0-0-0 on FanDuel. They must have gotten a...

That's a lot. It's an inside dope on Halliburton's left leg. Yeah, the medicals came back. Can I give you the Eastern Conference MVP odds right now? Do it. Who do you think's favored?

Jalen. O'Shea Brissett. I don't see him. Jalen Brown, minus 125 on Fandle. Jason Tatum, plus 115. Yeah.

On Fanduel. And then in the Western Conference, Dallas is minus 154. And for a conference MVP, Luka is now minus 130. You could add Luka before the series at plus 165. Interesting. One game, that flipped.

That's the old quarterback bet. If you bet the Super Bowl, just bet Mahomes, because he's probably winning the MVP. Same thing you bet the Super Bowl, just bet like Mahomes because he's probably winning the MVP. Same thing with Luka. Like his odds were slightly better than the... You know, I know you were teasing me earlier about Paul George.

Yeah. But I do want to actually ask you guys because this has been such an educational playoffs watching teams that are, you know, I mean, Minnesota, you can make an argument about which the, you know, I think it's Ant and Cat and then it's this supporting cast, one of whom happens to make $45 million

a year in Rudy Colbert. And Denver obviously has a big two of Jokic and Murray, but then they have this excellent supporting cast. Across the board, Doncic and Kyrie, and then an incredible supporting cast. And so as we start talking about, oh, this guy might be available

and Donovan Mitchell might be available and Paul George and everything. I wonder whether or not there will be any trickle down effect from the success of certain teams in the playoffs this year of people being like, I think actually what we would like to do is go seven deep with guys who know their

role around their two stars. And the happiest I was as a Sixers fan this year is when I felt like there was that kind of balance on the team before Embiid got hurt. Yeah.

Where it was like Maxie and Embiid were the clear one and two. Which time? I thought you already got your one free swing. We're like swing five now. He said when Embiid got hurt. I just wanted more clarification. I'm talking about the changing paradigm of NBA team building. Oh, sorry. You got to make free swing. We're like swing fives now. He said when MB got hurt. I was just, I just wanted more clarification.

I'm talking about the changing paradigm of NBA team building, you know? Oh, sorry. Okay, got it. You got to make it regional. Yeah. Anyway, I was just thinking,

I was just wondering out loud, like, oh, I wonder whether or not anybody's going to look at Dallas and be like, huh? Like, where's my Gafford? Rather than, okay, let's bring in another guy

and another guy who we're going to, you know, and we're going to have to find the chemistry and find all this. But wouldn't you say it's different if you have Luka and you have Wemba Nyama or if you have Jokic?

You really only need one other major guy and then some awesome role players, I would say. Because it's like the major guys almost were two guys, right, Rob? You do need to be sure that whoever your best player is, and I think Joel Embiid is clearly one of these guys is a truly truly elite player like an immutable force in

a potential series of course their efficiency is going to go up and down but they change the matchups by being on the floor and so they have to be really good obviously when your second guy is a shot creator like Kyrie that changes a lot but what you do below them I think it can get tricky

and almost we want to have it both ways sometimes where these teams that do the three-star model, yeah, you get burned if you have Bradley Beal as your third star. That's clearly not good enough just to support a bunch of minimum contracts filling out the rest of the roster. I think Paul George is significantly better than that. If you're talking

about a third or however you want to classify the pecking order of what would be in Philadelphia. And at the same time, the other outlets or the other avenues for building teams have their pitfalls too. You may think you're seven deep,

but then you get in the playoffs and you're only actually five deep. And all of your best laid plans go to shit because two role players couldn't quite be as good as you thought they were. Or Michael Malone didn't get the email about playing the young

kids in the playoffs. Right. So yeah, those things are all... I think there's so many ways for NBA teams to go wrong. And we always want to diagnose them. And you want to give yourself as many outs as you can. But realistically, if you can get three star level players, I still think that's a really good model.

If I'm Paul George, I could just stay in LA, make a ton of money. I'm from LA. I wouldn't say there's a shitload of pressure on the Clipper players out here. Nice weather every day and I have an awesome house. Or I could move to Philadelphia with one of the most psychotic fan bases that exists.

Keep going. Where the moment anything goes wrong, it's my fucking fault. I'm the new Tobias Harris. That's called pressure makes, breaks, I'm living in Philadelphia, which I'm pretty sure there's no ocean.

Like just to have a nice, it's like two hours away. Yeah, two hours away. And the only reason I leave the Clippers is it's like, I'm tired of this Kawhi rollercoaster, not knowing if this guy's going to play. I'm going to sign up for Joel Embiid

because that's going to be a much more stable game, game after game, month after month relation. With respect to you and Kawhi Leonard, I think Joel Embiid's relationship to the Sixers and the Sixers fans is much different than Kawhi Leonard's relationship. I'm talking about him being on the court. Yes. CR. Yeah.

If I'm leaving Kawhi, I want to go to a team where I know... I wish Embiid maybe had a little bit more Kawhi. I wish he took more nights off and was more like, hey, the knee's a little gamey. I'm going to let it rest. That's fair. Let me ask you this after these playoffs. Who is that star that you're positive

will be on the court? Because everybody else is dropping like flies. But there have been major injuries for so many teams. Those guys fucking play. Nobody mentions that as like a strength. Yeah. Super terrible. Knock on wood. Jokic, same thing. Luka,

even though he gimps around sometimes, he's still fucking out there every time. Here's the solution for all of us with Paul George. A double sign-and-trade with the Lakers. Turn the camera on, Kyle. Double sign-and-trade. LeBron gets to stay in LA, but he goes to the

Clippers to open the new stadium, finish his career there. Paul George gets to finally play with the Lakers after it was blocked by Adam Silver a couple years ago. And finally, he gets to be a Laker. And he gets to be him and AD and JJ Redick. And we're off. It's a

new era for the Lakers. JJ Redick, was that conditional that they get rid of LeBron so that there's no conflict of interest with the podcast? No, I'm just saying it's a new post-LeBron era with Paul George, AD. I couldn't possibly start a TV show made by Andy Greenwald.

It would complicate our podcasting relationship. No, I just like that. I like the narrative of that. LeBron and the Clippers, Bombers, like, this is great. I have LeBron James to help open my new arena. We'll see if he can get... There's got to be some milestone left

he can break in the... What's it called? The Intuit Dome? The Inglewood? Yeah, the Intuit Dome. I went to Pearl Jam last night, and I'll tell you, the ride wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. I'm now excited for the Clippers season. So it was a Wednesday

night, and I think it was at like... Wasn't that at like 8 or 9 o'clock? Yeah, we left at like I don't know, 6.30 range after the first half of the Minnesota game. Not a bad ride. My one trip to that area for a soccer match last summer was one of the most hellish driving experiences

I've ever had in Los Angeles. You know what, I think Stevie Balls figured it out with the parking and the traffic. Well, now you're trying to treat LeBron there. Steve Balls has our back. The traffic's going to get worse when LeBron is a clipper, apparently. Rob Mahoney, thank you. Chris Ryan, the Robert

Duvall of this podcast. Now and forever. Thank you so much. And we're going to take a break. Come back with Hall of Famer Isaiah Thomas. Whether in the game or in life, the right coverage can make all the difference. Isaiah Thomas. loved ones financially, giving you the peace of mind to focus on what truly matters. Find their products through banks, credit unions, and associations, or visit SecurianCanada.ca. Securian Canada, insurance designed for life. As the world's population grows, so does the need for resources like Potash to support sustainable food production. This is why BHP is building one of the world's most sustainable potash mines in Canada. Essential resources responsibly produced. This is what BHP has

committed to Canada. The future is clear. It's happening now at BHP, a future resources company. To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. All right, I really want to have Isaiah Thomas on, the Hall of Famer, my nemesis from the 80s. And then we made up way later in life and we did a documentary together. And now there's this anti-80s. Oh my God, these guys couldn't play now. And I'm telling you, Isaiah Thomas would have been awesome now. But I've been thinking about you with some of the storylines, Isaiah, where, first of all, there was a greatest defense ever storyline was in there. And then watching Kyrie rejuvenated, especially in game one, where, I mean, is there anybody else you felt like offensively was on your level

as like a 6'2 and under guy as a scorer slash playmaker other than Kyrie? Not with the, I would say, the layup package in terms of being able to get to the basket, finish around the rim. And then the way he handles the basketball. So I remember talking to Coach K when, when he was recruiting Kyrie and he called me up and he said, this is you all over again. And, and I remember when Kyrie first came out and I was down at, um, FIU and he actually came by one of my practices and visited me and he worked out with some of the guys. And, you know, I had seen him on television, but I had never really seen it up close in person. My mouth was my all I could do was just sit there, watch mouth open and be in awe of what I was seeing because he was just beautiful to watch. I'm glad you mentioned the layup thing. He's either the greatest or the second greatest behind you for being able to get a layup off in traffic from every angle. He's the guy I'm

watching now, but I always thought that was one of your great skills, like your ability to go left, right, any angle, any angle off the backboard, any kind of arc on the shot. Is there anybody else other than you two that's been like that? Because I honestly can't think of anybody. I would say Rod Strickland. You know, Rod Strickland had a great layup package. Finish around the basket, right hand, left hand.'t able to, you know, open up and really do all the great things that we see Kyrie is able to do. So, um, but I would say Rod,

I would definitely put Rod Strickland in that category. Yeah, that's a great one. Yeah. Cause the other thing that Kyrie reminds me of you with is on a fast break with people in front of them and most guys will either lay back or they'll wait for another wing to try to run like a two on two or three and a fast break with people in front of him. And most guys will either lay back or they'll wait for another wing to try to run like a two on two or three and two fast break. But he sees it though, the same way you saw it. We were like, oh, I'm just going to go at these guys and figure out how to get my shot off, which is Iverson was like that too. I, you know, Iverson is always in this small guard conversation, but I always feel like Iverson was like a six,

seven score trapped in a six foot body. Right. Whereas you and Kyrie, I think we're wired a tiny bit differently, but the difference was your era was you could just get annihilated when you went to the basket. Kyrie doesn't really have that problem. Not only could you get annihilated,

you got annihilated. That was, that was part of the price you paid. And, you know, it was like back then it was the land of the giants. And they said, the referees, the fans, and everybody was like, okay, well, if you come in here, this is what you got to expect. Like, you're going to get hit. You're going to get beat up. You're going to get bloodied up. But that's the land of the giants that you're going to get hit, you're going to get beat up, you're going to get bloodied up, but that's the land of the giants that you're going into.

So if you go in there, you know, good luck to you. And that's just how it was. You took, I think, probably the worst like stitch injury of any player I can remember. You almost got a hockey injury from the Carl Malone elbow. I don't remember a worse, well... How many stitches was that? 47. Oh my God. And let's be honest, kind of a cheap shot. Or maybe even just a full-fledged cheap shot, but that's kind of the way it went back then. The elbows were a lot sharper. But yeah,

I don't remember anybody taking one that bad. I mean, we had people break orbital bones and broken noses, stuff like that. But you literally got, what was it, over the left eyebrow or the right eyebrow? I can't remember. The left. Yeah. But you know what was really cool? Like years later, like Carl Malone and I, we actually did a sit-down interview for NBATV. And, you know, I held a grudge for a long time, and I swore that, you know, at some point in time, I was going to put a scar on him like you put one on me.

You know, that was, you know, I asked him the question and before I can even get it out, he said, you know, I want to apologize to you. He said, I meant to hit you. He said, I'm not apologizing for hitting you. Yeah. But I didn't mean to do that. Right. And that's what I can respect, right? You can respect that, okay, guy hit you and everybody got hit. But when he said, I didn't mean to do that, I have to accept that apology and forgive him. And if you go back and you look at it, if you go back and you look at that interview,

like he was almost in tears. And you never really realize what the other person is carrying, you know, all these years. And I think forgiving him took a big weight off his shoulders. And I'm glad that we were able to have that moment. But I still hate that he hit me like that. I'm going to guess Robert Parrish and Bill Lambert are probably never going to have that moment. Or Bert and Lambert or anyone in Lambert. I don't know if anyone's having that moment with Lambert. Do you think? No, probably not sit down a moment like that, but I will tell you this, from a respect factor, you know, and you've heard us talk about the respect that we have for the

Celtics at Nauseam. I mean, they were great teachers, great mentors, you know, beat us up. And the thing that I love about the Lambeer story, and I would hope people would go back and document it. You know, when Lambeer first came to the Pistons, you know, we started, you know, we started three white guys. We started Benson, Trafuka, and Lambeer. And Lambeer was one of the few white centers in the league. And early on in his career, and Bill, you remember this, like guys were just turning around and literally taking their fists and punching him right in the face.

Right. And only years later, after taking so many punches in the face when he started to hit back he realized like oh these guys aren't as tough as I thought they were because now I'm hitting them and you know they're doing a little whining

and crying where he would get punched in the face fall on the ground and you know, get back up and, and, and keep playing. But when he started hitting back, oh, then it became a problem. Right. And that was, I mean, basketball was a tiny bit more like hockey back then where scores were settled on the court.

I mean, guys started getting thrown out in the mid eighties, but in the seventies guys would fight and stay in the game sometimes, you know, and then eventually that, that flipped when we got into the nineties, but you got into your shared, I mean, what's weird is you were kind of the enforcer of that team, even though you were one of the smallest guys, you were, you were the kind of the sheriff of, of all that stuff. And you're always in the, in the mix with that stuff, which I always thought, um, was unusual. Because I think people look back and they think Lambert and Mohorn. That was one of the fun things.

We did that documentary, which I think is 10 years ago, pretty much this month. We did the Bad Boy Pistons for 30 for 30, which was one I was really passionate about. And we did all the interviews. You hadn't seen it. And we did a post-game show on ESPN Live.

And it was me and it was you and it was Jalen and it was Doug Collins. And we got to watch the documentary with you and you hadn't seen it. And honestly, it was a career highlight for me being in the room for you. You were so emotional watching it. You know, I think you could describe all the reasons why, but watching you go through the gamut of emotions for two hours, and then we had to go on live TV and talk about it. It was just, it was just really cool. Do you remember that? I do. And you know, those like, you know, that, that time, like you talk about the 70s, right? Well, remember, I came in in 81.

So everybody was still kind of playing that way. So the heartaches that you had to go through and the teams you had to beat. I mean, Philadelphia was a great team. Boston was a great team. L.A. was a great team. Boston was a great team. LA was a great team. Milwaukee was a great team. And the physicality that you had to endure at that time and the heartaches that you had to overcome.

Remember, I was a small guy. I got drafted out of Indiana, and we had just won a national championship and everyone was saying that a small player could never lead or win in the NBA as a point guard. And you remember every point guard was 6'7", 6'9", 6'6". There were no little guys like me trying to win or expected to win. And definitely you couldn't win by being a leading scorer and also assisting. That was like, you know, impossible to do as a small player. And so watching that and going through that and reliving all that, you know, that memory, you know, it was just so many

heartaches and ups and downs and trying so hard to overcome that, you know, when we watched it that day and, and Jalen was there and you and Doug, it was, you know, it was, it was emotional because, you know, Hey, you, you wasn't supposed to do it and you did it and you overcame and you beat all the odds. Right. Well,

there, there was also that other piece that I think the documentary tapped into, but also just even talking to you even after we did the show when you were still emotional about it. Like,

that team won two straight titles during an era where it was really tough to win two straight titles, right? And now we're starting to see the way the league is now, how deep the league is. Like that team won two straight titles during an era where it was really tough to win two straight titles. Right. And now we're starting to see the way the league is now, how deep the league is. It's so hard to win two straight. Um, but you were between the bird magic era and then the MJ era.

And you were considered the Pistons were just looked at as you were almost like the Larry Holmes, you know, that the, the champs that held the title between all the other champs, everybody liked. And there was, I don't want to say lack of respect, but a lack of appreciation. I think for how good those teams are. Like when I did my basketball book, I had the 89 team as the fourth best team of all time. I mean, you absolutely ripped through the playoffs and destroyed everybody, you know? And I just don't think you got the credit for that. So that was one of the cool things for me when we did the doc was like, yeah, this team was freaking incredible. From a defense standpoint, you know, when Minnesota did what they did to Denver and the greatest defensive teams of all time started coming up. For me, it's you guys in 89 versus the 2004 Ben Wallace Pistons. That's the two best defensive teams I've ever seen. Do you feel like you guys have the championship belt?

Is it an open debate? If you were going to make the case for the 89 team, what would you say? I would say we're in the conversation with the 204 Piston team and also the other team you just mentioned. Well, the 89 Pistons, I think some people would have the 96 Bulls in there because having Pippen and Jordan and Rodman? Yeah, I would say those three teams because we could guard anywhere and we can guard anybody at any time. But I thought our 89 team

really set the standard of how defense can be played in the NBA. Because you remember, we were so against the grain at that time as a basketball team with two small guards in the NBA because you remember we were so against the grain at that time as a basketball team with two small guards in the backcourt um Lambert, Mahorn, Edwards you know Mark Aguirre you know I got to throw Adrian Dantley in there too because he was a big part of what we had done. But I would say like, you know, all defensive schemes and discipline,

the way we trapped, the way we rotated, the way we moved in and out, defended 94 feet, you know, defensively teams weren't playing that way. And I think we set the standard and then the rest of the league started to follow. But I don't think anybody has come close to what we did with that 89 team with Mahorn. And I think

the other Houston team, the 204 team, was the closest. And then, you know, Chicago with Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman. I mean, I think, you know, you can make the argument that, you know, Scottie was one of the best defenders. He and Rodman.

Yeah. A long time. I mean, you really can make that argument that those two together and Pippen alone by himself, again, you can seriously

make the argument that he was one of the best defenders of all time. Yeah, if I'm thinking swing defenders, it's those two

and it's Kawhi in the mid-2010s. And that's the list. I think those are the three guys. If I was going to make them out Rushmore, the fourth spot gets a little... You can make cases for different guys, but those three guys have to be on it.

And I think, for me, whether 0-4 versus 89, 0-4 had that great run, which was distinct. Like, what they did to the 0-4 Lakers was insane. Like, what they did to the 0-4 Lakers was insane. What they did to Kobe that series and all of it. But

you guys, it was the sustained domination. And I think that if you're going to make the case for 89, the Rodman piece would be the final nail in the coffin for that team in a good way. Because that late 80s Rodman, I don't feel like I've ever seen a defender quite like that, that late eighties Rodman, I don't feel like I've ever

seen a defender quite like that, that could guard all five positions at the highest possible level. Like what bird was breaking down by the late eighties, but you could feel it in the 88 playoffs, like what he was doing to bird in the 88 playoffs. I just never seen anyone guard bird like that. And we, and all the fans, we were all like, what's going on? He can't go by this guy, you know? And I just felt like he, what he grew into in 89, where you basically couldn't keep them off the floor.

Right. They're, they're hit a point where he had to be out there in every big situation. So that, that might tip it for me. But do you think Rodman as, as a lineup weapon might still be number one for non-centers, right? Yeah.

I would, you know, what he came into the league and what he grew into and what he did for non-centers, you know, like I say, he and Scotty, but I would have to give Robin the edge because of rebounding. Right. Because not only would he shut you down, but I would have to give Robin the edge because of rebounding. Right. Because not only would he shut you down, but then he would rebound the basketball. Yeah. Scotty wasn't as great a rebounder as Dennis.

But, you know, like you say, those two plus Kawhi, you know, it don't get any better than that. When you watch these Minnesota guys and people like including including me on this podcast after that game too, they had against Denver and I didn't know if it was sustainable, but for me, that was the first time I had seen defense like that since the Oh four Pistons and going back to you guys way back when, um,

then you see them against Dallas in game one and Luca seemed like he had kind of figured it out. And it didn't seem, this is where they kind of fall a little historically, if you're going to compare them to 89 and 04, where it doesn't seem like they have the guy to guard Luka. McDaniels felt like a little bit too small. I'm not sure, maybe it's going to be Edwards the next, maybe they'll try Towns.

But did you notice that as you were watching it? Yeah, exactly. And, and, and what I, what, but I think, you know, watching it, I kept saying is, Hey, they may be the same length and size, but one guy is way bigger than the other. I mean, I mean, you know, they may both stand like 6'9", 6'10", but Luka is, you know, I mean, he's a big boy. When he

gets you out of position, just like Jokic, right? When they get you out of position, and Larry and Kevin, when them they get you out of position, and Larry and Kevin, when them guys get you out of position, what's brilliant about those guys is they keep you out of position.

You never are able to get back around. You're able never to get back to your fundamental base. Soon as you make a mistake and they get you out of position, they keep you out of position, they keep you out of position and then you're at their mercy. Are those the two guys that are the most eighties out of all the stars we have for you now? Most definitely.

Yeah. For, for different reasons, right? Jokic, cause he was so unselfish. I mean, he's basically like a bird and Magic had a big Serbian baby.

And then Luka, just how he uses his body and it's just so unusual. But last night reminded me there was some bird stuff and some of the stuff he was doing last night where he just, it felt like he was covered, but he was never really covered, you know, which is a whole other level of when you're good offensively. Sometimes it felt like he could have shot right away, but he was waiting for the guy to come over so he could take one more dribble and shoot in his face. I think, I thought Minnesota was going to win the series like in seven and I still do. And I think it totally makes sense to let down after the seven game series they had, like if Dallas was going to steal a game, it was game one.

But I would be worried about the Luka piece. Did you have, when you were playing, like, at your peak, did you have a seven-game war like that that you won and then you just had to play two days later? Do you remember an experience like that? Actually, it was Chicago, you know, in 90. Yeah. When we beat Chicago in the seven-game series,

and we had been playing, I think we had played like eight games because we finished the series with four. So we had played maybe like eight games in like, you know, 12 days. And then we, we open up the, the with Portland game one and, and we ran out of gas and I think they beat, I think Portland came in and got us game one. And that was their last one. Yeah. And, and, but, you know, but,

but this is different because Luka and Kyrie, these are two of the best offensive players that will go down in history as ever playing our game. Wow. So, you know, these two offensively, you know, they, they can do what they want to do when they want to do it. And, you know, ain't no scouting report for them. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're right. You know, I remember, you know, and this was, this was the brilliance of Chuck Daly, right? So when we were playing against Boston,

we would watch film on everybody else, but we wouldn't watch film on Larry. And so finally I asked him, I said, you know, why we don't, why we don't ever talk about, you know,

how we going to defend Larry and everything else. Chuck goes, I don't want to scare the shit out of you. So I don't show you film of him. Oh my God. That's crazy. You know, I remember when I,

when I did TV with magic for a year and we spent a lot of time talking about basketball and Jalen was there too. And you know, I always approached basketball as a fan. I read everything possible. I watched as much as I possibly could. I had my opinions. Right.

And then there was this level that those guys had from having played I read everything possible. I watched as much as I possibly could. I had my opinions. Right. And then there was this level that those guys had from having played. There were things they could see that I just couldn't see because I hadn't played. Right. And I remember one of the guys was Kyrie, the way they talked about the stuff Kyrie did. And I just looked at him back then. That was before LeBron got there. He was like a good stats, bad team guy. And they were talking about how, no, no, this guy's special. You don't understand. They just could see things I couldn't see.

Then Kyrie, that last Celtics season's awful. The Brooklyn experience is a nightmare. And just me, a guy who never played, I'm like, that guy's a sunk cost. I wouldn't go near that guy. There's no way, right? But Dallas, I'm like, that guy's a sunk cost. I wouldn't go near that guy. There's no way, right? But Dallas, Jason Kidd, they need to put a second star next to Luka, they lost Brunson, and they're seeing the glass half-full version of Kyrie. So you're watching this, you're one of the

30 best players of all time, 25 best players of all time. You're watching Kyrie as a sunk cost. Did you give up on him? Oh, me? Never. If you look back, when Kyrie was going through all the stuff that he was going through in Brooklyn, I was one of the lone voices out there saying, don't give up on him. I love him. Stay positive. Because he's such a talent. And you remember, Bill, when you were in school, right? You know, back in the day, we used to always have those teachers who would come in the classroom and they would see And that's what I saw in Kyrie. Like when you, what, what you see in Kyrie today is one of the most beautiful people along with one of the most beautiful players. So now, now maturity, life experience, basketball has come together and connected. And sometimes you have to wait for it, but some players are worth the wait and he was always worth the wait.

That's well said. Well, I wish I got to just, I just got to be more proactive about getting you on the podcast more often. Cause I love talking to you, but I'm glad all as well. Thank you for popping on. Thank you. And I'll see you soon. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Ryan and Rob Mahoney. Thanks to Isaiah Thomas. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti as well. Don't forget the Prestige TV podcast,

30th anniversary of the craziest two-part episode in the history of Beverly Hills, 90210. Me and Juliette Lipman will break it down. That's going up over the weekend. Don't forget, you can watch all the rewatchable stuff and the big picture and all of our movie stuff on our new Ringer Movies YouTube channel.

My YouTube channel is youtube.com slash at Bill Simmons. And we are going to be, I think we're still doing a Sunday pod, even though it's Memorial Day weekend. So enjoy the weekend. Have a great time. I hope it's sunny and happy wherever you are. And I'll see Bruce on a little horse And I don't have to be Must be 21 plus, 18 plus DC And present in select states Fandle, offering online sports wager in Kansas Under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC Gambling problem?

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