The Bill Simmons Podcast - A Zach Lowe–Jackie MacMullan Reunion on West Sleepers, Toughest Coaching Gigs, and Ben Simmons Options

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe and Jackie MacMullan to discuss NBA sleeper teams in the Western Conference (1:55), the question "Is the East finally stronger than the West?" (29:55), an update on the Ben Simmons–76ers saga (49:00), NBA rule changes (1:05:05), and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Zach Lowe and Jackie MacMullan Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We also relaunched our TV podcast that's now called the Prestige TV Pod. Me and Amanda Dobbins were on there on Monday talking about Morning Show, season two, episode one, a polarizing show. I am going to pop on there pretty much every week the next few weeks, including something I'm doing with House

in a couple weeks that I am very, very, very excited about. You know what else I'm excited about? Me, Zach Lowe, Jackie McMullen talking hoops because suddenly training camp is on Monday and the season is less than a month away. Holy shit. How did we get here? Let's bring in Pearl Jam. All right, Jackie McMullin is here. And now I can say our former colleague, Zach Lowe, because you're a former colleague for both of us, Zach.

That makes me sad. Sorry. It makes me sad, too. I don't want to be Zach's former colleague. But then when we get back together, it's like a reunion. So that part's fun. That's true.

That's true. Zach has a nice kind of semi-full. Looks like he's on his way to a Vlad A. Divac's 1990 type beard situation. You're like five days in. We have a lot of basketball to discuss. He looks a little bit like David Duchovny just right now.

He does. I've gotten that before. I've gotten that before. I like that one. That's one of the better ones. Well, and with the stubble, man, you're hitting it. You're hitting it.

All right, continue. It's like a Californication, a little more dangerous, David Duchovny. Not X-Files, more straight. You know, I'm trying to sneak the beard in. I didn't declare I'm growing a beard. I'm just trying to sort of sneak it under the radar by just so slowly that my wife wakes up one day

and is like, oh, you have a beard. I didn't give you permission for that. But it's not going to work. She's too smart. No, that's not going to happen. You know, I have to tell you, I actually watched David Duchovny just last night because I set up this show called The Chair

for my mother on Netflix. Do you know about this at all? I love that show. That was a good show. It's a great show. And Dave, I just got to the episode with David Duchovny, who was very funny. Anyway. Yeah, there you go. I digress. I digress. Okay. All right. So I have a bunch of topics for us. We're going to start here because this is something Zach and I were talking about on the phone last week. If the Lakers do not win the West, let's go round robin. Let's pick a team we believe in to win the West. Zach, since this is your idea, I'll let you start

because I like the team you picked and I'm jealous. I don't remember what team I picked. I told you. Well, it's not a team you picked, a team you liked. A team you liked. You're not picking a team. You like it. You're enchanted by them.

Okay, so if you forced me to pick a team that's not the Lakers and wins the West, I would maybe go Phoenix and then Utah in some order. But what you're referring to is my craziest take of the season is that Dallas, if they can get some chemistry issues sorted out, is not that far away from being able to win the West. That's my craziest.

Everyone thinks Dallas disappointing off season. Poor Zingas. Oh my God. He was so bad last year. Luca and KP don't go together. Well, I'm like, Luca is that good. They got shooting around him. KP could have a bounce back year.

They have a new coach who needs to kind of prove a lot of stuff. We can talk about that, but that's my crazy. I don't think Dallas is that far away. Cause Luca, Luca almost beat the Clippers last year by himself. And the Mavs almost beat the Clippers the year before. It gave them a run anyway with KP injured. So I just think Luka is that spectacular. So, Jackie, the reason I like this take,

because I had been kind of circling it as well. Dallas is 29-1 to win the title in FanDuel. It's all about the Benjamins with you, isn't it, William? Here's the thing. I think people are sleeping on them for this reason. There's a legacy in the National Basketball Association, which will be celebrating its 75th anniversary this year, of the great player becoming a great player

and propelling a team that we weren't like 100% sold on and pulling it to this higher level than we expected. You mean like Giannis? Like Giannis just did. Right. But we almost thought

he was going to do it two years ago. I was thinking more like LeBron in 2007 when they were in the finals. It's like, wow, how did that happen? Oh, I see what you're saying.

The legendary bird in 1981. Magic Johnson, 1980. Now those are better teams that had more talent. The legendary bird in 1981. Magic Johnson, 1980. Now, those are better teams with more talent. That's got to suck. Kareem. Come on now. He was playing with Kareem. The three of us feel like Luka, if he's an all-time offensive player,

which I think he is on pace to be, Jackie, it's not unrealistic that he could sneak a couple rounds past where people would think at a young age. Okay. Okay. So I understand. I'm buying part of what you're selling. And I'll say this. I did like the move to get Josh Richardson out of there because he wasn't helping with spacing because he can't shoot threes. And you brought in Reggie Bullock, who I just love. He's like one of my favorite glue guys. And I love Sterling Brown. I love those guys. That's great. And I was a huge fan of Jalen Brunson. People were talking a lot about Tim Hardaway, who had a good year, but I just thought Jalen

Brunson and maybe that's a sentimental thing or whatever. So that I get. But I do have the butts on Porzingis, Zach, because his defensive numbers were so deplorable. Now, I know what you'll tell me is that he was recovering from that meniscus tear. It was a shortened offseason. He didn't have a time to get healthy. And I hope that for him. I always hope that for every player to be healthy. But I do worry about the two of them playing together and coexisting together because Porzingis still thinks he's the unicorn. And he doesn't realize that we've removed the horn. Okay?

You're just another guy now, and you got to prove to us, get healthy, and prove to us you can be a guy that can help Luka win a championship. Well, that's why I mentioned the chemistry stuff, sorting it out,

because KP was clearly not happy, made some sort of passive-aggressive comments about, well, I'm just a floor, I guess I'm just a floor spacer now. And I think, look, I've never talked to Luka Doncic about it. I don't know. But if I'm Luka, I think that other guy's got something to prove to me. Like, he's got to prove that he can be the guy I can count on

when it matters. And by the way, KP was really good in the bubble two seasons ago. He was really good in the Clippers series before he got injured and stuff. Like, it's not that long ago that he looked like that he was back to being something like what the Knicks hoped he could be and what Knicks fans hoped he could be. But if I'm Luka after last season,

dude, you got to prove it to me. I think that just needs to get sorted out before I can really, really believe in Dallas. The Clippers by the end of that Mavs series were basically like, we have no answer for this dude at all, and all we can really do is hope he gets

tired in the second half of games, and Kawhi goes berserk, and we can limp past them into the second round. Well, with Porzingis, none of us think he was healthy last year. If he gets the lower half of his body in way better shape than it was, I'm with Zach.

Before he got hurt in that Clipper series, it was a pretty interesting series. I know he's got limitations. There's two things I like about him. One, if it's a comeback year for him, good. The other thing is he's probably one of the most tradable pieces in the league. And I'm sure if he shows anything the first six weeks or so, that's somebody who's going to be in some deals. But to me, it's a bet on Luka. And at some point, especially in the West, which I think all of us have some questions about, at some point, it might just be whoever has the best player, that's the team you have to back. I think it's great for them. Not great for us, but great for them that the Denver, the Jamal Murray thing, we don't know if he's going to be a hundred percent next season, the Clippers, who the hell

knows what happens there. You start removing teams. The Utah has the weird chemistry stuff going on. Phoenix played four rounds, put a lot of miles on Chris Paul. They're going to have a lot of expectations this year. And you kind of go through all the teams and it, I don't know, Jackie, it seems wide open to me. Well, it is. I think it is wide open. And with Przingis, you mentioned his lower half and that's really it, isn't it? It's just the complete lack of mobility, but also, you know, they're, they're always trying to have him drop, right? Drop in the paint to prevent guys from penetration and shooting at the rim. And I'm just not sure. I'm just not sure that even that worked well together for those two guys. When you put them both together on defense,

they were just among the worst defensive teams in the league when both of those guys are trying to defend. So I don't think you can just separate Porzingis from that problem, the defensive issue. Now, I also think, I think we're remiss if we don't mention the coaching change. Yes.

And, and it was time for Rick Carlisle to go. I think we all, I think he would be the first to tell you that. He was ready to go. Had things broken a little differently, he might have ended up somewhere else, I think we could say. And so that's fine.

But Rick Carlisle, for me, is one of the best coaches in the league, the most prepared coach, maniacal in his preparation, great defensive schemes, just a really, really good coach. And I'll be honest with you, the jury's out for me on Jason Kidd if he's an NBA coach that can lead a team to a championship. I'll just be honest. Yeah, a couple of things.

Number one, Bill's right to mention hovering over all of this is arguably, I mean, you could make the argument that Denver and the Clippers would go into this season one and two in the West, or at least in the Holy Trinity with the Lakers, and they're missing two critical players that knock them for now, at least out of this conversation. Number two, I got to disagree with you, Mr. Simmons. I don't think Porzingis is one of the more tradable pieces in the NBA right now. I think if he were, he'd have been traded.

I think what you said about- Oh, I don't think he's tradable. I think he's possibly tradable. Just because of his salary. And there's, what, two years left now? Yeah, he's got to show something. And then I think that sort of gets the process going. And about Kidd, I totally agree. I think Jason Kidd is one of the biggest wildcards in the league because I do think Dallas has a higher ceiling

than maybe people realize, but they did just go from a Hall of Fame coach to a coach who has left some bad feelings everywhere he's been so far and some defensive schemes in Milwaukee that as soon as they scrapped him, the Bucs

became a 60-win team. Yeah, Marin's book had some good kid stuff. Zach, is Carlisle your favorite coach who hasn't won a playoff series in 10 years or do you have another pick? Oh, come on, man.

Anybody else? Or is he number one for you? He's the only one. He's got to be the only one because if you don't win a playoff series for 10 years, you're probably not a coach right now. You know you're a good coach

when you keep your job for 10 years without losing a playoff series. I share the same concerns about Kidd. You mentioned how Denver and the Clippers could potentially be one-two in the West, at least for a prediction standpoint. Could you make the case if Klay Thompson was 100% healthy right now and we're going into this season with him at 100% instead of him at, oh, by Christmas Day, hopefully he's playing. I do think there will be some Golden State buzz too, right, Jackie? Well, so that's, you're asking me for my sneaky

little pick in the West. Oh, go do it. Yeah. If everything breaks right for Golden State, look, they got the band back together. We don't know what Kyle, you know, we don't know yet. We don't know what he's going to be, but we know how hard he works. Even if he's 80% of himself, you put him back with Steph who had an MVP type year., Draymond's a different player. Draymond's taken a step back. I think we can all agree on that. But maybe you put those three back together, and some of Draymond's best attributes once again get accented. And I think the difference for that three, the Splash Brothers plus Draymond from the past is, look at that roster, guys. There's some depth there. Not something that Golden State's ever really had with those three.

You may not love Otto Porter Jr., but you certainly like him enough to appreciate what he gives him. I definitely don't love him. You can throw it definitely onto that. Right, exactly. But you can understand why he gives you depth in the NBA. Yes, I think. I like the two draft picks.

I think Andrew Wiggins needed a year to figure NBA. Yes, I think. I like the two draft picks. I think Andrew Wiggins needed a year to figure it out. And I think he has. And I think he's one of those guys that we do this right to former number one picks. We tear them down because they don't live up to expectations. And then we say, OK, so can you find a place to fit? Can you find a place where you can be a productive player on a very good team? And I think Andrew Wiggins has taken a big step towards that. You know, I love this guy, Bill. I can never say his name.

Neamja Bielica. How'd I do? Liked him for five years. Yeah. Right. Just waiting for him to find the right team. Yeah. The professional kill.

What do they call him? They call him the professor of shots, right? I love Neamja Bielica too. It's a little disturbing to me that Bill said it with a smirk on his face. We're just waiting for him to find the right team. I think he has... I mean, a couple years ago for Sacramento, he was like some part

of their best lineup. They played him at the five some. It just never seems to sustain. In theory, he's a really helpful seventh guy or eighth guy for the Warriors who can play a couple different positions. In theory, he's a really helpful seventh guy or eighth guy for the Warriors who can play a couple different positions. In reality, he could not crack the Miami Heat's postseason rotation when they were

scrambling for anybody who could do anything against the Bucs last season. Don't you think the Miami Heat situation is always a little different? There's pressure there. I don't know. I just think that's a tough place to walk into. There's stops. I just think they're difficult.

I think you have to spend some time there before you can meld in. I love that heat culture stuff. We won't go there again. I haven't even mentioned James Wiseman, which is probably their wild card. We didn't see enough of him to really say, but there was some upside there. Is there enough

upside? I don't know. If he plays well early, he is a trade chip and maybe you add a veteran if you want. I mean, when we were talking about the Mavericks before, the one thing I kept thinking they were going to do was get that secondary score. They never did. They might still, I guess. But I'm just curious about Golden State. They have championship pedigree in the front office, in the coaching ranks, and among those players. And I find it hard to bet against those kind of teams. Now, I'm not saying they're going to win the West.

I'm just saying they're my little sneaky, let's keep an eye on them. Maybe they can do it team. You know, one thing, I've known Zach for almost 10 years now. He loves nothing more than a basketball conversation where a hard to pronounce name is brought up that he knows

the correct pronunciation. Zach is like Mr. Pronunciation Perfection. Well, first of all, all Yugoslavian names, if I don't get right, I got an issue in my head. Yeah, you got problems.

Yeah. I honestly don't know if it's Nemanja or Nemanja. I think it's Nemanja. I think it's Nemanja. I think it's Nemanja. I used to think that, and I'm pretty sure my wife corrected me at some point, but I don't know. Well, you know what? We should ask him because I'm telling you, for years, we all called the Patriots player Ronnie Lippitt,

and he finally said, you know, my name's Ronnie Lippitt. Would you guys mind calling him by my name? He'd been in the league like six years. So sometimes it's better to just ask the player. I had Golden State initially as my sneaky team. What changed your mind? What changed your mind?

The Klay Thompson thing worries me. You know, he's had major injuries in both legs. He's been in the league for, this is his second decade.

The kind of style that he had with the, you know, the running that he does, the fact that he always has to defend the best perimeter guy on the other team, although maybe we could still, but that part worries me a little. The part that I liked was the depth thing, because this is the same case

for the Celtics, right? Where it's like, they have one awesome player who hopefully Tatum will have a career year. And then they had, they're going to have 11, 12 guys. And maybe this year we just saw it, you know, in baseball, you just never know. You never know when the Red Sox got sidetracked for three weeks. COVID just went through the team like crazy and depth really mattered. And I do think with the Warriors, with the young legs and stuff guy who's one of the great players of the last 30 years maybe being able to put together one last one. But Zach, when Jackie mentioned Wiseman, that was a nice gateway to my sneaky team. Ooh. The Phoenix Suns.

Sneaky. So here's the thing. Oh, because of the big fella. The big fella. I think people are off the scent of the Phoenix Suns. And, you know, Golden State has been going hard on this whole Wiseman. We watched Aiton, how Aiton progressed.

And that's like the blueprint for why Wiseman can move clear. Well, why can't Aiton be even better during the regular season? The stuff he showed in the first three rounds of the playoffs, the fact that all those guys are together for next year. If they get anything from Jalen Smith, who had some summer league moments, we've known to discount them,

but you know, the continuity, um, could it be, I was thinking like, I was trying to think of teams that have had like three year runs. Right. So remember Memphis had that Zeebo Conley Gasol.

Zach, you love those teams. How could I forget? They were just in the mix for what? Three years there where it was like, wow, thisley, Gasol, and Zach. You love those teams. How could I forget? They were just in the mix for, what, three years there where it was like, wow, this team, they took down the Spurs in 2011. They were just in toe-to-toe with basically the best teams of that era.

Could this be a little three-year run for Phoenix? So I think in a weird way, I think they're sneaky because everybody's kind of looking for this year's Phoenix, but maybe this year's Phoenix is Phoenix. Jalen Smith is one year away from having his NBA name changed to not Tyrese Halliburton. I hope he gives him something this season. Look, I'm with you on Phoenix.

I think people are, I think there's a certain amount, there's a certain, people have ascribed their run last year to a certain kind of flukiness of they had perfect health for almost the entire season before Chris Paul got COVID and then got the shoulder injury and all that in the playoffs. Went in a year where nobody else had perfect health. In fact, everybody had horrible luck with health.

Then they got injuries across the board that helped them in the West anyway to get through the West, right? From AD to Jamal Murray and the Clippers without Kawhi. And all that's fair, but I think the Suns are just a really good team. And all of their key players minus CP are young and should get better. And I think you both are believers, having been around the league longer than I have, when you do what they did, when you get to the stage they got to,

there's a certain emboldening, I think, that happens to guys where they're just more, they just are more confident, they're steadier. I believe that stuff is real. And getting to the finals, even in a weird year, even if you got some injury breaks, the continuity they have, the youth they have, I don't think it should be a surprise

if they're right at the top of the West, toward the top of the West when the playoffs start. But Jackie, remember that Patriots year, Parcells' last year, when they made the Super Bowl a year before they should have? Yeah, and Parcells was already leaving. Yeah, Parcells was out the door. But they stuck in, they got some breaks. The Broncos in L.A. lost it was like, Parcells was already leaving. Yeah, Parcells was out the door, but they snuck in. They got

some breaks. The Broncos in LA lost a terrible game at home. And all of a sudden, the Patriots win the Super Bowl. But the 97 team was probably more talented. And I wonder what the Suns like. Let's say we don't have all the dumb injuries and they just don't make the finals last year and then we're anointing them. It's like, all right, here we

go. It's going to be the Suns year, but they kind of snuck in a year early. I think you can make a case if, as long as Paul hasn't taken a step back, which you never know because of the age he's at. But now we're at an age where we're watching Tom Brady on pace to throw, throw a hundred touchdowns. I don't even know what to make an age anymore, Jackie.

Yeah. But age, I think the age of an NBA point guard and the age of an NBA quarterback are two very distinctly different things. Tom Brady can play till he's 50 because the NFL has determined that the quarterbacks are our stars and under no circumstances will anyone ever hit or even touch one of our quarterbacks if we can do anything about it. And I really think that's changed the way quarterbacks play and the success rate of the quarterbacks because they're protected so well. Chris Paul, what he did last year to me was just remarkable because he reinvented himself

this late in his career. And that was sort of my favorite part about it. And I spent a lot of time around that team to the best I could during COVID, writing about them, talking with people there. And by the way, it's time to give James Jones a nod. Everyone was making fun of James Jones when he got that job in the front office there. I think it's time to give James Jones a nod. Like everyone was making fun of James Jones when he got that job in the front office there. I think it's time to give him a little bit of a nod. He made some good decisions in that front office, brought some right people in. So I'm going to give James.

Can I also nod at Tyrese Halliburton as I'm nodding at James Jones or no? That's up to you. I really can't. This fascination of yours must end. It must very unhelpful. My guy Tyrese. Wait, wait, wait.

Hold on for a second. Don't you think it's interesting that none of us have directly brought up the most obvious candidate for this discussion? Yeah, Utah. The number one seed, the team that had one of the 15 to 20

best point differentials in NBA history last season, the team who may have made the finals had Mike Conley and Donovan Mitchell not gotten injured. Why is it that they're just not the first obvious answer? I'm out. You're out for the whole discussion?

I don't think you can win four straight rounds with Rudy Gobert the way basketball is played in the 2020s. I just don't. I fundamentally don't think you can. That's interesting. What I thought was so interesting about Utah, again, a team that I thought reinvented itself, Zach, after the previous year that was such a disappointing year. And Quinn Snyder decided,

we're not going to just shoot threes, pass the ball and shoot threes. We're going to shoot threes in transition. We're going to hit pull-up threes. And they did. They did all those things. And yet they got to the postseason, and we always know the game changes in the postseason. The game slows down. So I'm a little bit with Bill when it starts, when you have Rudy Gobert, who's obviously a great defensive force and all that, it changes the way you play. Donovan Mitchell, to me, he's the one I'm looking at. He's a guy like Devin Booker,

could take that next step, like Jason Tatum. Those guys are all in a bunch, right? They're the guys that can they make the next step and get into that upper echelon. If he does, I think he's going to force Utah into making some decisions about how they play. I really do. I just feel like last year was the window for Utah it's when you look at like what the general public thinks it's interesting that

Phoenix has worst odds at least on FanDuel than Golden State Golden State has 12-1 Phoenix is 15-1 people are like discounting Phoenix what's Utah?

and Utah is well Utah is 15-1 as well so so if this if this year is the window for all these other teams because of the Nuggets and the Clippers being a little bit injury riddled, why is the same not true for Utah?

Is it just the perception? Okay, it is. So the window is not just last year. The window remains open. Oh, 100%. I meant the window in the sense that everything lined up for somebody last year with the injuries that we had at the times that we had the injuries that it just,

the door was wide open and Phoenix ended up being the one that burst through it. But Zach, what's your take on Utah? I'm curious. What do you think? I mean, what,

what do you agree or disagree with us regarding Utah? Why do you, I thought about them a lot on my pod last week. I think they are maybe the most, I mean, no one would nominate them as the most interesting team, but I think this is a really pressurized year for Utah.

I think they're really, really good. I think Gobert's, the level of blame on Gobert's defense for what happened to them against the Clippers has been overblown. In fact, I think the bigger problem was he was not able to exploit their small lineups on offense, which he should as a seven-foot-whatever guy. It's never happening.

But, well, maybe it isn't. I don't know. But I do think there's just a lot of percolating noise there right now with the new owner, with Dwayne Wade, with Dennis Lindsay moving away from his GM role. There was the Donovan Mitchell ankle kerfuffle at the beginning of the playoffs last year where there was a clear disagreement

between player and team about whether and I just there's just a certain how many times in a row can a team end the season thinking we didn't get as far as we should have yeah Conley and Mitchell were hurt I get it but like at some point you just get you you reach a point where it's like man you look at like maybe we maybe it's like this mix just isn't right and I think it's it seems early for that because Mitchell is so young. Gobert's 29.

This core has actually been together a while now. I think if there's a team other than the obvious Lakers and Nets who kind of has to make it happen this year, it sounds a little extreme to say that about a team with like a, what is Mitchell, 24, 25, 25-year-old cornerstone who's in the first year of a contract that's got four more years left on it guaranteed. It seems extreme to say that, but I think Utah, I think there's a lot of pressure on the Jazz this year, whereas last year they were this feel-good story.

Like, look how they reinvented themselves. Like Jackie was talking about, oh, my God, the hole is greater than the sum of the parts. The ball's flying around. They're the new Spurs. It's magic. I think that was, like, all wonderful. And this year it's, like, they're the new Spurs. It's magic. I think that was like all wonderful. And this year it's like,

they're the hunted. There's pressure. There's some new blood at the top of the organization. I think they're really interesting. Like I said last week, if there's one team, if there's one team

that I'm most fascinated to see how they would react if they started off way below expectations, like if they were 7 and nine after 16 games, it's for me, it's Utah. Okay.

Can I ask you guys this? So we know that Dwayne Wade came on in some item, not to me, supposedly it's still murky to me. What is Dwayne, Dwayne Wade's capacity with Utah jazz, a minority owner? Is that what we think?

What do we, do we know for sure? Exactly. with Utah Jazz? A minority owner? Is that what we think? What do we, do we know for sure exactly what? Seems like, like minority owner and kind of front-facing something. So let me ask you, you bring on Dwayne Wade,

who was Donovan Mitchell's idol and they have this wonderful friendship and relationship. So to me, that was like, well, we got to make sure Donovan Mitchell's happy.

Yeah. So that makes me wonder, is Donovan Mitchell unhappy? And I'm not saying, get me out of here. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, did he have questions about Utah or if that was the place he wanted to sign with? And that's where he wants to begin and end his career. Now, he's never said anything to the contrary.

I don't want to put words in his mouth. I'm not reporting anything. I'm just speculating. My priority, if I were the new front office of the Utah Jazz, is to make sure that Donovan Mitchell is happy, comfortable, and wants to make it happen here. That would be my top priority. They also traded for Eric Paschal,

who is one of Donovan Mitchell's best friends, dating back to when they were kids. I think Eric Paschal is I think I had him first team all rookie a couple years ago. I think he has a chance to be he took a step back last season. I think he has a chance to be a rotation player on a decent team.

But I think, I mean, if I had to guess, the reason the Jazz made that trade was because of Donovan Mitchell more than Eric Paschal. Well, Donovan Mitchell, honorable honorable guy greenwich country day grad um yeah they're the night of the decision i can't get over that they're the night of the decision he was in the crowd as a student the night decision his friend got inside he could not get inside he was standing outside with the throngs of people all of, of course, New York Knicks fans. And then when they

heard the announcement live from standing outside the Boys and Girls Club that he was taking his talents to South Beach, he was the only one clapping and excited. And some dude

threw a beer bottle at him and it missed him by two inches. Oh, my God. That's a true story. Well, we have to take a break, but I wanted two quick Utah points. We never mentioned how devastating that game six Clippers loss was

and whether there's going to be ramifications to that. It was one of the worst playoff losses we've had in the past 25 years. So there's that. And you mentioned the new owners, Zach. What have we noticed with new owners and NBA teams that first year they take over? They always want to do something, right?

Like for Wick, it was the Antoine Walker trade. They all have one though. Ballmer comes in, he wants to do stuff. They all kind of, they want to put their imprint on the team in some way. So I'm with you. If something weird happens to start the year, they're eight and eight, nine and eight. Like that could be a trade team. All right, we're gonna take a break.

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This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Okay. You know, we talked West. Just quickly, I'll ask both of you. Is the East now better than the West? Can we officially say that, Jackie? Yes, I think the East is better than the West, top to bottom. Because you've got teams out of the East, more than one team. I mean, Brooklyn,

I think is everybody's favorite, even though Milwaukee just won the championship and has this player for the ages. And the Sixers, we don't know what to think, do we? Because they're in limbo at the moment. The Miami Heat, yes. I'm going to say yes. Zach? Still a no on that. It's close, but I'm'm going to say yes. Zach? Still a no on that. It's close, but I'm still a no. Still a no? How come? I think the bottom of the East is worst.

And I think like... Oh, yeah, but we're not asking that, are we? I think we're asking like... I even think 6 to 10 in the East is probably a little bit worse, depending on what you think of Chicago, Charlotte, Toronto, Washington, that group. And, you know, like Jackie just said, we don't really know what Philly's going to be. I think Miami, Atlanta, Boston are all solid underneath

Brooklyn and Milwaukee. It's close. I'm still taking the West. When I say that, I'm talking about teams that can win it. I think the East is better because I think there's more teams that come out of the East that could win it. That's how I feel. Zach and I, I'm surprised you turned your back

on the East there, Zach, because Zach and I both secretly love the Cavs. We like their roster. Really? It might just be us two, but both of us are enchanted by their roster.

Can I tell you something? I talked to Steph Curry a couple of weeks ago for something I'm doing for The Ringer, which will come out sooner or later. Yeah. You ever heard of them, The Ringer?er, which will come out sooner or later. Yeah.

You ever heard of them? The ringer. Yeah. Yeah. Great place. Love it. Great. Yeah.

So anyway, I'm growing, it's growing on me as well. Anyway. So I talked to Steph Curry a couple of weeks ago and I was asking him about young players that he may have reached out to, you know, and guess who he said?

Darius Garland. Darius Garland. He loves Darius Garland a lot. A lot, a lot, a lot. He thinks that kid is going to be a flat-out star. So, Bill, I got a little buzzkill for you. Oh, no. No, don't do this.

Every year I write this column called My Six Most Intriguing Players for the Season. And Sexland is going in as one combined player. So I've been watching a lot of Sexton Garland film. And Sexland is going in as one combined player. So I've been watching a lot of Sexton-Garland film. And I love Garland. I actually like both of them fine. I think they're going to really miss

having a big man who can be a playmaker for them like Larry Nance was and Kevin Love was in the two seconds he played last season. Marken and Mobley and Allen are all good, but I think Cleveland is further, upon doing deep film dives,

I think Cleveland is further away from a functional NBA offense than I had thought a couple weeks ago when we were both being giddy about the Cavs. Zach, you know that's not what I care about. I care about league pass at 4 o'clock Pacific time when I'm flipping around and who I'm excited to watch. You're going Cavs.

If the Cavs are on, I'm intrigued. I'm way more intrigued than Orlando. No one has said that since 20, whenever LeBron left. No one has said that. Literally the moment he left. All right, next big question. Which coach, in your opinion, is in the least enviable spot? Frank Vogel,

Steve Nash, Doc Rivers. Who would you not want to be this season out of those three? Who's going first? You can go first. Doc Rivers. Easy.

Easy. Make the case. Well, like, Vogel just got an extension and I think the Lakers are pretty... Something will have to go really wrong for the Lakers

to not have a good season and be toward the top of the West. Steve Nash, I mean, we can talk about the Brooklyn situation, but I just think they're the best team in the NBA. To me, they're the championship favorite, and I don't think very hard about it. But that also comes with expectations, my friend, Zach.

Of course it does, but you would welcome that. I think Steve Nash, I don't think he got into this job to not have expectations. And I think they should be really confident that if they're healthy, they are prepared to meet those expectations. Whereas Philly has the potential to just be a complete clusterfuck the entire season. And, you know, their playoff collapse last season against the Hawks,

a series that they absolutely should have won, Simmons malfunctioning aside, like, I think it put the bullseye on Doc's back. You started to hear more and more of like, well, who's blowing more 3-1 leads in the playoffs as a coach than Doc Rivers? Who's lost with home court advantage more in the playoffs as a coach to Doc Rivers, who's fallen, who's lost with home court advantage more in the second round than Doc Rivers. Like I think another disappointing season is,

is a problem for Doc. Jackie. So I'm going with doc too, but I am going to push back on the idea that the Sixers actually should have won that Atlanta series. I don't think you're giving Trey young and the Atlanta Hawks enough credit for what they did in that series. So I'll push back a little bit on that. Number one seed at home.

It was a choke shot. Game seven, choked in game five. I'm just telling you, that's all true, okay? But it discounts the team that beat them. And I don't like doing that. I'm super high on the Hawks this season, so I don't really disagree with that, Sean. I think the Hawks are legit.

Like when I get into arguments with NBA people about was it a fluke, was it blah, I think the Hawks are legit. I think they're going to be better this season than they were last season. Agreed. That doesn't mean they'll get as far in the playoffs, so I think they're going to be better this season.

But I just still think it's like Philly has to win that series. Come on, like inexperienced team. Atlanta was battling injuries. Like you have to win that series. Losing five and seven at home is disgraceful. Well, especially after you were untouchable at home for the last

two seasons. The obvious answer also to me is Doc. But I have a little different thought on why that might be so. And that is what Doc said at that press conference when someone asked him, can Ben Simmons be your point guard going forward? Or whatever they said. I forget the exact question. And he said, I don't know. And I know it was a moment of candor. It's Doc's greatest strength and also his biggest weakness, a couple of things happened. I think Ben Simmons wanted to leave there anyway. I think the day they started all that trade talk with Harden and we all know that, blah, blah, blah, fine. So he wanted to leave anyway. But if you were looking for the proverbial nail in the coffin, that was it. really blew all the leverage that the Sixers may have had going forward about whether or not Ben Simmons was a tradable asset

and a valuable tradable asset. Now, people were going to make their own decisions based on the horrors of Ben Simmons postseason. So I think that could come back to haunt Doc. Yeah, it's interesting. When he said that, I think in a weird way, he was trying to motivate Ben, but it brought it up because we already know what the downside for the doc season is. We already know this is going to be a rough season. Simmons isn't reported in a camp that's going to hang over them. I do think they'll be able to pull off some trade.

There's a downside to year two of that Brooklyn season. You have the bullseye. You have the three guys together. Everybody's just going to assume they're the major title favorite. You have all the Kyrie stuff. You have all the vaccination stuff, which that's going to be a hornet's nest. Who knows how that's going to play out? You have all these veterans

that you got to make happy. And, you know, expectation. And then you have a guy in Durant who, you know, came off a serious injury last year. They put a ton of miles on him in those playoffs, a ton. And you have Harden, who's not exactly a Mr. Fitness. And I think the downside potential of that team, especially if things go wrong, that could be a really, really challenging team to coach. So I just wanted to mention that,

Zach. I mean, I mean, we did see them almost beat the team that won the championship with one star hurt and the other one hobbling around doing nothing for most of his time in the series because of a hamstring injury. Like, that's how good Durant was. But look, every team has a downside and we can bring up that kind of downside for every team.

This team does seem sort of uniquely, I don't even think, I don't like everyone assumed they would be combustible. They weren't. It was just health. When they were together, the three together, there was no,

I mean, maybe we just didn't have time to see it or it didn't have time to develop, but it was like completely frictionless once Harden got there. And I think you could spin it the opposite way where, you know, yeah, there's pressure and all that.

Those three guys are probably incredibly motivated to come out and kill people this year, to come out and be like, we would have won last year had we been healthy. You know, James Harden is not, he's still missing the championship and he wants to prove that he, if he's not Mr. Fitness, as you say, that he, yeah, I can still be an MVP caliber player into my thirties. Like, I think they're going to come

out this year and be like, wait till you see what we can do now. Will it sustain? Will they say healthy? We'll see. But I, I really liked their team and I, and I think they're clearly the favorites. Jackie, they created a monster though in the playoffs last year. Yep. Yeah, with Giannis. Something clicked with him in that second half of that series that he carried over, and now he's at a different place. I have him as the best player in the league now. I think he's 1A, and I think Durant's 1B. Durant can take it back.

But I think for what Giannis did those last couple rounds, he has to be 1A. Well, he's so powerful, and he's in the prime of his career, and that's the difference. But I mean, I still look at Durant as a more versatile player than anybody in the league right now who can kill you from three, who can kill you in transition, who can pass the ball, who can rebound the ball, who can defend if he puts his mind to it. I still think he's the most versatile overall player. But you were talking about being combustible. We don't know how combustible the Nets were or weren't last year.

And that's a credit to their coach, to Steve Nash, because I think there were plenty of days where it was crazy town over there. And Steve Nash just handled it. He handled it. He handled it the way he handled everything he did as a player, calmly, you know, cerebrally. Honestly, you know, he was honest some of the time during that. I actually went out to do a story on Steve Nash for ESPN.

They had just started opening up the, you know, one-on-one situations. And I went during the playoffs. They were playing Milwaukee in the playoffs. I flew out to Milwaukee, sat down with Steve and Mike D'Antoni. We had a great interview. It was going to be a great story. And then that's when, was it Harden? Or I forget which one got hurt first.

Kyrie, I don't know. One of them went out. Harden got hurt 15 seconds into the series. Okay, so yeah. So that must have been it. Anyway, the story never ran because they lost. But what I learned from sitting with those guys was that if you were wondering who the alpha was or who the leader of that team was, it was indisputably James Harden. James Harden was the guy. He was the adult in the room. The coaches had great respect for him. He came in. He knew he messed up in Houston. Talked about that with his Nets teammates teammates, talked about that with the Nets front office. He wanted to make things right. He was willing to defer, but not only that, was willing to keep everybody else calm, engaged, locked in.

They raved about James Harden's leadership skills. And that was interesting to me. He's probably the most fun MVP pick this year. Huh. I don't know if it can happen. I don't know if it can happen with all the firepower. Yeah. I'm saying he's the most fun because I think everybody has the same. It's like Luka or Giannis.

There's like the Tatum wildcard crowd. Last year's MVP race would have been incredible had LeBron and Harden stayed healthy. It would have been an all-time great MVP race would have been incredible had LeBron and Harden stayed healthy. It would have been an all-time great MVP raucous debate. Everyone being mad at each other. Everyone being spiteful on the internet.

It would have been awesome. It's just funny that the guy that won doesn't really give a crap. I'm sure he's glad he won it, but you get about mad or angry at someone else for winning it or all the slights. Like LeBron always says, Marc Gasol stole the defensive player a year away from me.

Remember all that stuff? LeBron's always at home keeping score. Jokic just can't even, at least unless he's fooling us all, doesn't seem interested at all in any of that. Zach, could you tell us what you expect from LeBron this season without being in complete fear

of enraging his legions of fans on Twitter? What I expect of LeBron? Yeah. I expect him to be awesome. I mean, was he the frontrunner for MVP before he got injured? I mean, if he wasn't, he was number two. Yeah, he was neck and neck. We're moving right along,

and it seems like they're going to lean a little further into AD at center in the regular season than they have in the past we'll see about that i expect lebron to be amazing and to be right there for mvp um i do think it's nobody really wants to talk about it because it's lebron and because maybe they were kind of fluky events on the floor but the guy was indestructible before and now two of his last three seasons, two of his three LA seasons have ended with not ended, but I've had, had one ended with an injury and one was interrupted with an injury that he

never really recovered from all the way. I mean, you could tell in the play in game and in the playoffs, this was not like steamroller LeBron at that point. And yeah, maybe it was, you know, Solomon Hill dove into his leg and maybe it was all fluky.

But, you know, like, I do think it's, we never applied the if healthy qualifier to LeBron's teams the way we do with the Nets, for instance. I think it's,

I think it's, it's time to at least apply it. That's why I asked because this is year 19 for him. And the one thing we know about aging superstars is it's really hard for them to recover from stuff. And that's where it goes south for them.

And we saw it with last year where he just didn't look the same. And, you know, I think we made this mistake with Kobe a few years ago where we just penciled these guys in and just assumed year after year. I think Jackie, I think he has the highest variance for any season

of anyone in the league. You could tell me he's going to win the MVP or be a top three candidate. You could tell me this is the year he drops down to the second level. I don't really know what to expect. You can't predict it either. No, but I just I do think he's a guy that

trains in ways that others do not. I just think I expect him to be what they should do is manage his minutes better. I know he doesn't like that, but if they ever had some ammunition to go to him and say, LeBron, here we go.

The last two seasons, let us control your minutes. You have to take a night off once in a while. Let's win the championship. These things matter. There's all the data. All the data is there to show. There's no question that they should do that.

I think it's honorable that he wants to play all 82. I do too. I think it's cool that he says, the fans come see me and this might be their only chance to see me. He didn't always say that, by the way. No, he didn't. It was an entering late career shift by him.

And I think he clearly has wanted another MVP. I think that was part of why he played all 82 that year in Cleveland his last year. I think he played every game in Cleveland the last year. But I do think, and look, one of the reasons you get a guy like Russell Westbrook is that he's a wind him up and go out and win regular season games player and carry the load so you don't have to. And I just think it's indisputable that Jackie's a wind him up and go out and win regular season games player and carry the load so you don't have to. And I just think it's indisputable that Jackie's right. Like if I'm the Lakers, I'm telling LeBron,

you're playing 65 games this year, you're playing 29, 31, 32 minutes, and then we'll gear it up when it matters. All that matters is I don't care what seed we are, all that. I mean, it helps to be high, but we got Russ to carry the load. We're saving you to the degree that you are willing to be saved for the playoffs. So something just occurred to me. We were wrong then. The answer to this question is Frank Vogel because who wants to have that conversation with LeBron? That's why I threw him in there. I think, yeah, I mean, that's really, yeah, that's a tough call. You have to manage LeBron's minutes.

You have to convince Davis to play center. And you have to coach Russell Westbrook, who I think we've all grown to appreciate in a lot of ways, but is still the most frustrating last 90 seconds of the game star probably of this century. He does dopey things

to anyone. Frank Vogel was the coach of the Orlando Magic when they had like 18 centers on the team. I was making a shit ton of money coaching the Los Angeles Lakers and won the championship yesterday. He's super happy. Frank Vogel's good.

Frank Vogel's good. And Frank Vogel started out writing letters to Rick Pitino over and over and over again just to be the third, fourth, fifth towel manager, you know, like that dude talk about growing up through the ranks. So I'm always happy for anything that happens for Frank. And, and I think he won LeBron's trust by just leaving them be. And so if you're going to make this shift that you're talking about, I don't know how Rob

Palenka and Frank Vogel overnight turn into different people because they're still who they are. So, but I, but I think maybe LeBron's people should be in his ear saying, look, what's the ultimate goal. Is it the, you know, you,

we want to win another, you want to win another championship. You're trying to catch Michael here. Like, like let's just win another championship. And the way we do that is your boy. AD has got to play the five. You've got to take some time and don't worry while you're sitting there.

Russell Westbrook will score like crazy. We know you didn't have that last year. You have it this year. The on-off scoring numbers with LeBron on the floor and off the floor were significant. That's not a concern anymore as long as Russell Westbrook stays healthy because that guy's been beat up a bit too.

I like the other trade more and I will continue to like the other trade more. As will I, Buddy Hill, yes. And I continue, I'm super dubious of Westbrook playing with LeBron. I just am. Like once we actually get to a playoff series and teams are playing 19 feet off Westbrook, we just haven't seen him succeed in a playoff series

in a really long time, including in 2016 when they probably should have beaten the Warriors that were running on fumes in that series, and they just couldn't get over the hump. But Bill, the Lakers aren't going to ask Russell Westbrook to do what those teams were asking. He's Russell Westbrook, though. He's not going to be able to resist.

I don't know. He thinks he's one of the best five players in the league. Okay, but he doesn't have a ring either. And if you see Anthony Davis alone on the block, you're not going to throw him the ball? I think you are. The problem is, can you throw him the league? Okay, but he doesn't have a ring either. And if you see Anthony Davis alone on the block, you're not going to throw him the ball? I think you are. The problem is, can you throw him the ball? Because your guy is basically making an Anthony Davis sandwich.

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All right, coming back. Unfortunately, we have to talk about Ben Simmons, who I think has gotten an incredible amount of podcast and writing attention only because there's really no other storylines. The league's pretty stable other than this Ben Simmons situation. Zach got an entire podcast

out of John Wall Trades last week. That's how- Oh, 15 minutes. Go easy on me. 15 minutes. It was like an hour. It was like an hour. There's been a lot of Ben Simmons trades mentioned

and a lot of destinations mentioned. With my favorite always being Minnesota, who doesn't want to actually give up anything for him, but is really, really interested in him. As long as they don't have to give up their only three assets. One destination that I have not seen mentioned, and I look at the trade machine all the time, trying to come up with picks.

So he mentioned those three. He wanted the three California teams, right? Which I assume were Golden State and the two LA teams. Everybody said, that's ridiculous. That's never happening. Blah, blah, blah. If you're the Clippers.

Oh, boy. Yeah, I know. I'm praising myself now. I know. Let's go. Come on. You're not winning the title this year with this Kawhi situation.

It looks like, and especially with what we know about him coming back from injuries. He's going to be careful. Okay. I've seen this play with Kawhi. I bet we don't see. I would bet on not seeing him this season, overseeing him. And even if we see him, they're going to be like a 7 seed

or a 6 seed or an 8 seed. They're not going to be one of the top 5 teams, so they're going to be like a seven seed or six seed or an eight seed. They're not going to be one of the top five teams. So they're going to be going to playoff situation where he's coming back from a knee injury and trying to manage that, which we've seen. And now every round they won't have home court advantage. And at some point it's like, this is, I think a throwaway year for them in a lot of ways. They had their run the last two years. It didn't work out for a variety of reasons. Then this year, they're not going to win the title.

So why isn't this the team that would kick the tires on Ben Simmons using Paul George as the bait? Oh boy. Hold on. And seeing if they can get Philly, because everyone with Philly is like, oh, they're going to take 70 cents a dollar. They're going to take 50 cents a dollar. What if you go the other way? What if you offer a real guy for Ben Simmons and you try to basically pillage Daryl? And it's like, we want Ben Simmons pack plus you're giving me this, this, this, and this. Get some picks back. You get Ben Simmons to have this whole test drive his own team for a year thing. And then he's still an asset. Maybe this becomes the way to get Dame lowered because Portland's not trading Dame lowered for Paul George, but maybe they would if it was Ben

Simmons and some picks and some other stuff. Why wouldn't the Clippers, if I'm Steve Ballmer, why wouldn't I call my guys in and at least have the two hour meeting and talk about all the possibilities, Zach? Zach looks like he's going to throw up. It's just been a long time since I've gotten to do this, since I've gotten a crazy bill trade proposal thrown at me live and unexpected on a podcast. And I get to both enjoy it and tell you that I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's not completely insane.

Yes. Now, what I will say is, I just think that's like an earthquake, right? In your franchise, exchanging Paul George, who's who, you know, and like,

he's on a big extension that will take him into his mid thirties. That scares you a little bit, but his skillset is, should age pretty well. You know what he is, you know, he fits with Kawhi. And I'm trading him out. Now, in your iteration of this, I might be getting like Maxie and two first round picks and

other stuff other than Ben Simmons. But I'm also getting Ben Simmons, who we all just saw what happened in the playoffs. He's the most idiosyncratic player in the NBA. He's completely unique. It requires a whole ecosystem for him to thrive. And I got this other star that I also just extended who is a two-time finals MVP who might be like, yo, I gotta play with that dude, the guy who passed to Matisse Stiebel

under the basket. I'm not really sure I want that. I get what you're saying with dialing the age backwards for the Clippers, getting a whole bunch of other assets, but I think the Clippers rightfully believe maybe this is a gap year, maybe it's not. If it weren't, and the year after that won't be, we think we have the best team in the NBA,

and we're not screwing with that. So Paul George will be jacking it over 800 games plus playoffs. He had the terrible leg injury, which he recovered from. He'll be 32 next season. And when they gave him that extension a year ago, I think we all heard the same stuff.

It's like they locked him down and he also seemed like an unquestionable trade candidate, potentially, because they weren't... I don't think anybody was totally thrilled with year one Paul George on the Clippers. Year two went a lot better. I think he really proved a lot of good stuff in the playoffs

and did some stuff that I personally wasn't positive he was capable of. On the other hand, you could argue a year from now with two aging forwards, both who have had major leg injuries, where am I going anyway?

Maybe it's worth the gamble to get some picks back on Simmons. Jackie seems like she's going to throw up too. Yeah. I've got a little bit of vomit right around my lips. If I'm Steve Ballmer,

I'm in the office and I'm like, sell this to me. And your analytics are going, in transition, 30% of his baskets are in transition. When he's going downhill, no one could stop him. So I will tell you this about Ben Simmons, which gets lost in the sauce, that over the last two years, no one has assisted more baskets.

There's only two players. Can you guys come up? Three of them. Can you guys come up with them? Then Ben Simmons. There's three players that have assisted, just more assists than Ben Simmons on three-pointers, okay? On three-pointers.

Chris Paul. Wrong. Luka? Luka is number one. Russell Westbrook is number two, and Dame Lillard is number three. But Ben Simmons is number four. Think about it. He comes in the open floor.

He pounds it into the paint. Everybody follows him. Dishes is out. Boom, they hit threes. So if I'm Steve Ballmer, I'm like, okay, okay, that's good. That's good. But then my analytics guys say, oh yeah, we should tell you this.

He made 325 field goals this year and 315 of them were in the paint. Okay. Think about that, guys. That's outrageous. That's outrageous. And he was the worst free throw shooter in the playoffs. Right, right. And also like zero of those field goals were in the fourth quarter of a seven game playoff

series. Well, exactly. But the thing that I think is interesting, people are really focused on the three point shooting. It's the mid range shooting. He only took 21 mid range shots all year. How is this possible? How is this possible? How is this possible? So if I'm Steve Ballmer,

that makes my head explode and I'm vomiting and I'm saying, man, that guy, Bill Simmons is nuts. Zach, this is a stunning heel turn by Jackie, who has been on this podcast many times talking about Ben Simmons. I do like Ben Simmons. He cares too. No, you're the master of the, he cares too much Ben Simmons defense. He wants to be perfect. He does. He actually can shoot. He doesn't want to miss. I believe that.

He just has to be unafraid to fail. I still believe that, Bill. And I'll tell you, he took 10 three-pointers this past year. 10. He made three of them. So he shot 30%. Okay?

30%. That's not good. Right. But if he shot 50, I guarantee it would have been 35%. And then he'd just be like everybody else. But this is the part, like I've told you this, I don't know what's been happening with Ben Simmons. I have not talked to him or I've not talked to his people about him in several months. But if I were in charge of Ben Simmons, I would have done a couple of things. I would have immediately gotten him into mental health counseling because he has a mental block with this game, much like the yips with Steve Sachs, or I can name a bunch of NBA players that I think would have benefited. Deron Williams was another guy that I always thought, what was going on there? Someone should have been working with a mental health coach or a positive self-talk coach or whatever you want to, the heck.

I would have been spending all summer doing that, aside from in the gym shooting threes or whatever else. And then if I were Ben Simmons, I would come out and say, look, I'm not reporting to the Sixers because they tried to trade me. Yeah. And then they tried to make it like everything was fine. And I'm not stupid. And I've been trying to roll with this so-called process. But let's be real here. You all want Joel. You don't want me. So just let me go. That's perfect. That was my advice for him on this podcast a few weeks ago. Come out and say the hard and trade really screwed with my head. and I lost my confidence because I know and they know

that they tried to trade me and that the trade fell through basically in the 11th and a half hour. Yeah, and I lost my faith. And then everyone's looking at me going, no, no, we love you. We still love you. It's great.

And it's like, you guys tried to trade me and it messed with my head. Yeah, it's like Ray Allen, except for it didn't mess with it. When the Celtics tried to trade Ray Allen at that trade deadline. Yeah, that was it for him. He was done with them. And it didn't mess with it. When the Celtics tried to trade Ray Allen at that trade deadline. Yeah, that was done. Yeah, that was it for him. He was done with them.

And it didn't mess with his head because he's way too self-confident and prepared for that to ever. He just got ticked. And that's why no matter what the Celtics offered him, he wasn't staying the next year. And I don't blame him. Yeah. I really don't.

I think one of the reasons, Bill, you and I both like the theoretical Minnesota fit, even though the Wolves fans are like, well, can we get him for some Alex Rodriguez memorabilia and Jada McDaniels? I think because I think there's a natural appeal to, now Simmons, Edwards, I think there'd be some stuff to sort out there, but Simmons and

one of the greatest shooting big men of all time who actually kind of wants to shoot 10 threes a game and trail the break. And yeah, Carl Towns wants his post touches too, but he doesn't want to 25 times a game get the ball on the left block and jab step and do all the stuff that Embiid does, even though he can do it. I think there's a natural appeal to that.

And that's a team that badly needs any semblance of defensive identity. Is there a deal there to be made? I don't know. But one of the first deals I thought of when the minute that Simmons passed that dunk up is Minnesota for Russell Beasley and a whole boatload of picks or Russell whatever and a whole boatload of picks. I don't know if both sides seem to hate that deal. So maybe there's nothing to it. Maybe it has to be a three-team deal. But I do think you take Simmons to a team that doesn't have a post-up center and his life begins to look a little different. The problem is most teams have one guy in their rotation who can't shoot,

whether it's a Giannis or, you know, there's only... Draymond Green. It's hard to find that environment. Yeah. I mean, I still think... I always thought Golden State would work even with Draymond. I still believe that. But I'm in the minority. I know that. I still believe in Ben Simmons. What can I tell you? I kind of still believe in him, too. I think this is salvageable. But this is I mean, he's got so many incredible skills. He was second in defensive player in the year voting. And to be honest, should have won. That's why I like the thought of him on the Clippers with all those shooters. Got pretty interested in me the more I thought about it.

Paul George is too big a price. I get it. But here's the thing with Darryl. And this is the reason I brought up this trade. Because I think the most likely scenario by far is Philly staring contest them. They have Michael Rubin, who's one of their owners, who is in good standing with the league and the players. So they have that.in who's one of their owners who has is in good standing with the league and the players so they have that they have Doc Rivers

one of the most respected coaches whether you want to bring up his 3-1 stuff or not and they have Embiid who's one of the best players in the league and I just having known Darryl for almost two decades and having watched how he has run basketball teams

he has never made the three the dollar for a three quarters trade. He just doesn't do it. He's always trying to get the better guy. He's always trying to get the best thing in the trade. And that was why I was thinking with the George thing. It makes more sense to me that he would overpay for Paul George than then he would do like some stupid Minnesota trade and get D'Angelo Russell back he's never made a deal like that in his career other than the Westbrook Chris Paul trade which should be a 30 for 30 because I still don't know what happened with that trade I don't know who wanted to do it

I don't know why it happened it was the most uncharacteristic trade any GM has made for what the deals they normally make I will never understand why it happened it was because Harden and Chris Paul couldn't coexist anymore. And Harden wasn't going anywhere. But why are you throwing in picks?

Except Harden did go somewhere. But I get that you have to build your whole... Daryl's already gone by then. Yeah. It was weird. So anyway, Zach, do you agree with me on that? That it seems unrealistic that Daryl's just going to do here's 55 cents for my second best player trade?

I haven't liked any of the trades really that I've done on the trade machine for that reason. And I do think that the Sixers are trying their best to wait out the Damian Lillard situation. I don't know how long they can wait. Maybe they're waiting out the Bradley Beal situation, which seems to have quieted down. And maybe the Wizards have a good year this year and he signs an extension and there is never a Bradley Beal situation. I think they're trying to play that waiting game, but they're going to have competition for all those guys. Yeah, everybody wants them. And I think too that the difference here with Simmons is he just doesn't have the leverage. You know, Rich Paul's done this in the past, obviously with his clients, with AD and others.

But this is different. I mean, he's at his lowest value ever, ever. And he's locked up for a bunch of years. So it's not like, what is he going to do, hold out for four years? Well, that's the thing. He's got four years left on his contract. Obviously, the league office is going to watch this very carefully. How does Philly handle it?

Is he actually not going to report to camp? It's still like I know Woj had the news today that he doesn't intend to report to camp and doesn't intend to, I'm sorry, I think Woj said will not report to camp. Does not intend to play another game for the Sixers. To me, he's, that hasn't happened yet until it happens. Like, I still need to see him actually not show up.

And if he shows up a week late, that still counts to me as showing up. But you better believe the league is watching because, like you said, Jackie, he's got four years left on his contract. He's actually just not going to play? Does he have an obligation to play? Those are really tough questions,

but this is a scenario that is going to be really interesting to watch. But I know the Sixers are like, you can say whatever you want seven days in advance. We know how much money you make. We've never seen a player say, you know what? I don't want $35 million.

This is cool. I'm cool. Like I'll take zero instead. We've seen versions in football. We've never seen somebody who could make this much money for one season. Le'Veon Bell did it.

But not for $35 million is a whole different financial category. $30, whatever. And Le'Veon Bell wasn't a former number one pick who just is disintegrated before our eyes. It's just, it was stunning to watch. It's still stunning for me to watch because I just hope Ben Simmons,

I wish Ben Simmons well. I want him to find himself. But this isn't going to fly. It's just not. So he'll get fined, right? It'll be insubordination. You're right. The league will come down at some point.

I don't know. I don't, I don't know what they'll do. I don't know what the Sixers will do. I mean, I just, I think that that's what Simmons and his team at Clutch are counting on is like, I don't know. We don't know what they're going to do. I think, I think they picked the wrong team to mess with on this one. That team's pretty,

that team's going to be pretty resolute of not being pushed around. I think if it was, you know, maybe 15 other franchises would probably fold pretty quickly. I don't see the Sixers doing it. We're going to take one more break and then I have one more topic for you. All right. As always, I, I didn't prepare Zach for this, but...

Oh, boy. First of all, I want to mention one of my favorite things. Zach, if you die before I do and I'm speaking at your funeral... Well, this is horrible. Yeah, I know. I don't even... This is terrible. 60 years from now.

We're in like 2070. Good God. My speech will be about, you know what I'm really going to miss about Zach is anytime we had to vote on something, the panic text the night before from Zach wondering what I did. Did I have this guy here?

Did I have the NBA? NBA 75 at 75. Zach was my favorite Zach in a while. I actually was expecting more text from you. Nobody is more traumatized by voting for stuff than Zach. First of all, right now, listening to me,

first of all, the texts come the other way. Sometimes too. Let's, let's, let's, let's acknowledge that. Fair.

That's fair. Second of all, I'm just, I'm just a curious person. Panic is a little, I did the last five guys on the top 75. Brutal. Brutal.

And I wanted to text both of you, but I didn't because I was usually... My dad is ill. I've been just spending all my days in the hospital and I'm in an area where I'm not allowed to text or call. Otherwise, I would have. I thought this was incredibly hard. Incredibly hard.

We're not allowed to talk about it yet, are we? We're not allowed to talk about it yet, are we? We're not allowed to talk about it yet, but I will say I'm going to be really fascinated to see what the final list is and whether there's a recency bias component or whether people really try to cover the 75 years. I tweeted about this the other day. There was that silver anniversary team that they did in 1971. Right, right. the day, there was that silver anniversary team that they did in 1971. For the first 25 years, you just look at it, it's 10 guys, all of whom are retired. And I had eight of the 10 guys on my list because I'm like, I'm not just going to throw away the first 25 years of the week. I feel like that has to be represented. So where I landed was my 75 guys were compared to who they were playing against their era and how much better they were

than just about everybody else when they played. And that made it easier in my head. But fundamentally, is Chris Paul better than Bob Cousy? Yeah, I'm sure he is. If you put Bob Cousy in a time machine and put him here now. I don't know. I'm just saying, I'm sure Bob Cousy was nobody could shoot

back then, right? So let me ask you this one, since we're talking about this. So Billy Cunningham, three-time All-NBA player. He's on my list. Yeah, he's on my list. He's on my list too. But if you go, that's why you can't just go back and look. He's a no-brainer.

He's on my list, so he's easy. Right, right. But my point is, during that time period, you're talking about comparing against who he played against. There are certain eras where the competition is just ridiculous. There's these clusters of times where there's 10 or 15 players that are all timers that are butting heads with one each other and playing against each other. And there's other periods where that's not the case.

So it gets a little harder to compare. By the way, Billy Cunningham, we're not supposed to talk about this. But anyway, I also... We did successfully sidetrack Bill from whatever he was going to spring on me. He's probably going to be like, name your 10 greatest teams of all time. Now go.

No, I hate it when he does that. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that without notice. No, I did want to mention just this whole 75th anniversary thing and then the league. So there's been some buzz that the league is going to really try to change some stuff before we head into this season. And we've seen football does this every year. Like this year, they added this weird no taunting rule that everybody hates. There's always some new wrinkle. This was also a big David Stern thing back in the day of he would always try to have the one thing that could become a lightning rod topic. In this case, I do think

the league has some real issues that I would be fundamentally disappointed if they didn't fix, like with the flow of the game stuff and the challenges and what can be challenged and the fact that 90 different plays on the court can somehow be challenged. But if somebody has the inadvertent goaltending, that can't be challenged. And the fact that 90 different plays on the court can somehow be challenged. But if somebody has the inadvertent goaltending, that can't be challenged. Like we're trying to

police some stuff and other stuff. And I think they missed the fundamental point, which is like basketball fans are okay if one call, you know, if somebody missed something, they're not okay. If it's like the game winning three, like Durant against the Bucs and his foot was on the line. That's the kind of stuff we should be reviewing. But the block charge stuff, Jackie, do you ever want to see a block charge reviewed

ever again in your life? Because I don't. No, I do not. But I will say this. I'm so glad that people will still take charges because there was a stretch there for a while in the league

where no one would even take them. So I'm glad at least they're back in the conversation. Yeah, there are definitely ways to speed the game up. And you just can't have these... There are just some absolutely interminable finishes. I think the clear path rule just needs to be simplified where you just like everything that looks intentional and bad

is penalized as an extreme clear path foul. Move on. Don't review all of them. Yeah, referee discretion. Just like the ref didn't like that. And you're not playing basketball. Just so you're two shots in the ball. That's it. No review. No, was this guy further back than that guy?

Was it over midcourt? Just play back. The out-of-bounds stuff, look, like you said, Bill, you got to be okay with... If you want all the out-of-bounds stuff to just flow, other than the last 10 seconds of the game, you gotta be okay with a missed call

in Game 7 of the NBA Finals with a minute and a half left. Maybe it's not the very last play I think you're saying, but you gotta be okay with that. But they gotta do something. Yeah, I liked when watching the Olympics this year, the refs were given jurisdiction with stuff

that it made me wonder why the NBA refs weren't given the same latitude. Refs are just like, I didn't like what you just did. That's a foul and he's going to shoot a technical because I just didn't enjoy that conduct. But from the flow of the game stuff,

I do think they're working on that. I do think it matters to them. And I'm going to be really disappointed if it doesn't get better because I don't... Do any of us want three-hour NBA games anymore? No. Jesus, no.

No. Gosh. That's getting... You know, Yankees, Red Sox. That's getting to that territory. Well, the other thing they fixed, which I was really happy about, it seems like this is getting banged through,

is the lurching into the guy who didn't know you were going to... That was coming. You knew that was coming. That was just... Zach, who's that rule going to be named after? Like, should we have a vote? Trey Young.

But Chris Paul could be like, I was doing this when Trey Young was in diapers. Yeah, but Chris Paul does it differently. I don't know. Zach, what do you think? I was doing this when Trey Young was in diapers. Yeah, but Chris Paul does it differently. I don't know. Zach, what do you think? I think it's the Trey Young rule. I think it's the Trey Young-James Harden rule. It's one of those two guys more than CP, I think.

Hmm. Maybe we should be able to vote on this. Like NBA.com. Because as you know, I love nothing more than when a rule or some sort of thing is named after.

That is the best thing. The Larry Bird exception. That was amazing. It's like he's a, he was already immortal. Now he's immortal in every salary cap document. It's pretty cool.

There's been some good ones over there. Zach, what are you going to miss about having Jackie as a colleague? Oh my God. Are you kidding? Like everything,

sitting next to her at games where we didn't talk to each other at all because we both wanted to watch the game. But really, Jackie, you know, Jackie is steadfast on like what this business is supposed to be and what it's not supposed to be.

And I don't want to elaborate too much on that, but she would embolden everyone at the company, everyone around us to just remember what sports writing is supposed to be and try to shove out all the things it's not supposed to be. And to have someone of her stature championing that kind of work product was massively important for the rest of us who don't have that stature. And just obviously an inspiration and a reminder to me every single day of why we got into this business and why we didn't

get into this business. And just having someone as accomplished as Jackie take you aside and say, hey, your work is good. Keep doing this. Keep doing that. Try to fight against that. It was emboldening, frankly. Now Jackie's getting emotional. Well, no, I'm just stunned that Zach Lowe doesn't think he has stature. That's pretty stunning to me. You're in the Hall of Fame, Jackie. You're a Hall of Famer. You're right behind me. You're right behind me. You're just too young. You'll get there. I mean, you're underselling yourself. My son would suggest that both of you have great stature. But thank you for the kind words. I will miss ESPN. I will miss mostly the people. I already do miss the people. But see, Zach, I got to see you with your best David Duchovny look. So I'm comfortable now.

I'm good for the next few weeks. It's going to tide me over. Well, I do think there's a fair with Jackie stepping back at least from the kind of stuff she was doing at ESPN is the next generation. And I'm hoping some of them are at the ringer. And I was talking to Logan Murdoch this week about this actually, because he gets it.

He gets like, I'm going to do a story about this person. I'm going to spend real time with them. I'm going to call a bunch of people for this story. And, you know, when people ask me, get emails or whatever, like, hey, how do I get better in this business? I want to break in. I want to be a writer.

I want to be the next Zach Lowe. Like, it's the day-to-day work. I have a story that is due. And instead of calling three people, I'm calling 10. It's Mirren, whose Giannis book worked out and made the number three of the bestseller list, who interviewed 280 people for the book, something like that. 290? She could have interviewed 50, but she put the time in. And I think that's the piece that especially the younger people, it's so easy to get. It's so easy to get to 40,000 Twitter followers. It's so easy to turn on a podcast reporter and just start shooting the shit. But the day-to-day putting the time, developing

relationships. Zach, remember when I sent you to the All-Star Weekend that year and told you not to write anything? Yeah. Changed my life. What was it? Orlando? Just spend four days and just meet as many people as you can and don't write anything. Try to make connections. And that's the piece in this internet era. I do worry that is the generation after this internet era, I do wonder, like, I do worry that, you know, is, is the generation after this younger generation, are they going to value that? Who are they going to be following? I still think there's enough good writers who are doing it. So I'm not too worried about it, but you know, I think that's what, when Jackie stepped down, I, there was, you could feel that fear of like, Oh, the certain type of journalism with FaceTime, which by the way, I didn't do a lot of. So it's not like, you know, I kind of went a different route.

But Jackie's thing of like, I'm going to get to know you before I write about you. And I'm going to get to know people around you. Like the Trey Young piece you did last year. It's like the band piece that Zach did. I think everybody's kind of worried that those pieces might be going away, partly because

people aren't going to be pursuing them with the same passion, but also because all of these stars now are surrounded by this kind of armada that really wants to get a certain type of branding thing out versus giving somebody that kind of access. And maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it does, but I think that's the part that, maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe it does. But I think that's the part that scares people. Am I rambling or is this? No, no. What I would tell you is whatever you told that to Zach

about going to the All-Star weekend and don't, you know, talk to everyone and don't write me. Every time I've ever been in a city with Zach, I'll say to him, hey, what do you think? You want to go to dinner? He'll say, oh, well, I'm having dinner with a scout from the Mavericks and then I'm having drinks with the guy from the jazz. And so he took your advice very seriously. And that's why his podcast is one of the best in the business. People, you can't fake relationships. You can't fake information.

Well, that's been one of the tough things about the pandemic is... Right, right. And not... Like, there's just no... There's no substitute, none. And it's why any job that requires a lot of traveling can be a strain on family and stuff because there's no substitute for,

let's go out for a beer after the game with the assistant coach or with a player or with an agent and just shoot the breeze for 90 minutes. And there's just no substitute for that. There's no substitute for the level of trust and communication you establish when you do that in person versus on the phone versus Zoom versus whatever. And you could do that infinite amount of times. I could be on the road 365 days a year doing only that. I would get divorced immediately and my child would hate me. But there isn't, as much as you want to make technology a substitute for that,

it isn't. It's not. True. The biggest difference to you is Zach's kind of a lightweight. Jackie can really hang from, from a drink standpoint. Well, here's the thing. Zach has to do the throw the drink over his shoulder when the other guy

isn't looking. Well, you know, so my dad's tricks, my dad was a salesman, met all his guys at Jimmy Harborside, the old Jimmy's Harborside where the seaport is now in Boston. And he knew the,

you knew the waiter cause that's where he had all his clients. So he'd always order, order a vodka Gimlet, which vodka Gibson, excuse me, with an onion, Port is now in Boston. And he knew the waiter because that's where he had all his clients. So he'd always order a vodka Gimlet, vodka Gibson, excuse me, with an onion, except for there was never any vodka in it. Because all the guys that he was hosting liked to drink four or five drinks. My dad's not a big drinker, but he had the waiter that would always bring him the water. See? Zach, do you do that? Is that your trick, Zach? That's a good trick. I would push back on the lightweight characterization um a little bit and I think some of my some of my friends might but okay look I I don't I'm trying to behave good man I will tell you this I I have to tell you one thing I never went out for drinks with coaches or players or assistant coaches I couldn't afford

to because I was a woman so I was never able to do that. It's not fair, but you're not the first female journalist to tell me that. It's completely unfair. It's awful. It just wasn't a good idea. It's something I try to be cognizant of that it's an inherent advantage, I guess, that I have versus it's not fair. You just show up to practice. Well, we used to be able to go to practice before practice. I would show up before practice, and that's when I'd get to know everybody. Before practice, no other journalists were showing up before practice started. I'd go an hour before practice started because practices were open.

That's how I got to know everybody. And then two hours, three hours before a game is still my favorite time in the world. And now I guess the regulations have changed. So I'm glad I don't have to do it anymore because you can't go down on the floor anymore. You can't sit on the bench and talk to the coaches or the players. And that's where I always had my best luck. Just like you say, lay in the groundwork, lay in the groundwork. It's not that they're telling you maybe anything in that moment. It's just when you get ready to call them the next time, there's a baseline of understanding with one another. It's a relationship.

Well, we thought this was going to be a normal NBA season, but it doesn't look like it's going to be. Nah, it's not looking like it. From covering the league, going to games. I feel bad for everybody. I do. God, I was at that game six of the Utah Clippers with my son. And I think it was the first game when there was no masks. Oh, really?

Okay. It was like when they finally, it was like the indoor is fine. It was like so much fun. Or maybe it was, maybe that was the next round. But right around that, the Clippers were still in the playoffs and there was no masks. And it was like, all right, we're back. Yeah. Everything's going to be normal again.

We're back to masks. Now we're back to masks and I don't see it going away anytime soon so bummer all right Zach good luck on season seven of Californication I am gonna be that shows

not still that's that's that's like long gone right that's not on I'm gonna be on your podcast what two weeks from now I don't know we'll see with their home and files movie coming out or anything?

I was an X-Files fan back in the day. Probably. Jackie, great to see you as always. We will hear from you on this podcast before the season. Yes. So be ready. And I enjoyed being with both of you, Zach. I do miss you. I miss both you guys very much. We all miss you, Jackie.

And yeah, Bill, we'll be talking soon. All right, guys. Prepare another crazy trade for me. All right. Thanks. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Jackie and Zach. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing it. We'll be back on Thursday with Million Dollar Picks

and a whole bunch want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside.