The Bill Simmons Podcast - AD Wreaks Havoc With Kevin O’Connor, Suns Owner Mat Ishbia Stops By, Plus Chris Mannix on the Failing Celtics

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Kevin O’Connor react to Lakers-Warriors Game 1 and the Knicks’ Game 2 win over the Heat (3:20), before Bill is joined by Phoenix Suns owner Mat Ishbia to discuss his path to buying the Suns and Mercury, trading for Kevin Durant, his approach to team ownership, the Nuggets-Suns series, and more (32:53). Then Bill talks with SI’s Chris Mannix about the Celtics’ Game 1 loss to the 76ers without Joel Embiid, James Harden’s 45-point performance, and Game 2 adjustments, as well Gervonta “Tank” Davis’s impact on the sport of boxing (1:00:59). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Mat Ishbia and Chris Mannix Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, I got basketball, I have Lakers Warriors, I have a Celtics freakout, and I have a basketball owner. That's next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right.

There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey. And it's on prime all season long. Watch prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL is best. They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey.

It's on Monday. It's on prime. It's the bill Simmons podcast presented by fan duel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet at all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what

you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way if you were wrong. You could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate, offensive TDs in the next drive. They have so much stuff, it's crazy. The app is safe and secure and easy to use.

And when you win, you'll get paid instantly. Plus, look out for FanDuel Squares this season. Here's what you have to do. Visit fanduel.com slash BS to download America's number one sports book. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Iron Man, me and Van Lathan. Yeah. I don't dip into the nerd verse that much,

but when I do, I bring out the bangers. I love Iron Man. What a great movie. We talked about it. I talked about my love for Pepper Potts. A lot of great stuff in there. You can check that out. Coming up on this podcast, I was getting a solo off the top of Lakers Warriors, but it was such a good game.

I had to bring KOC out of his hybrid bear chamber. So Kevin O'Connor from The Ringer joins us. And then an actual NBA owner, Matt Ishbia, who just bought the Suns, he came on to talk about what it's like to be a new NBA owner, how he pulled it off, and a whole bunch of good stuff. So that was fun. And then last but not least, I had to have a seizure about the Celtics. So I brought in our friend Chris Mannix, and we tried to break down how serious this is, how we feel about the Celtics and what is happening with this team

and how unreliable they are. And you can guess my state of mind during this conversation. We also talked a little boxing and a little James Harden as well. So that is all next. Today's a special day for me. It is May 2nd.

My daughter turned 18 years old today. And I'll tell you, my friends, you've heard her on this podcast many times. She would come on and do her teen culture stuff or talk about different things. 18 is frightening. This is it. I mean, she could just leave.

I don't want her to leave. I don't think she will, but like if she, it could just be one day she could have a suitcase and she could say, I'm 18, I'm out of here. That's again, not going to happen, but this is an age where they can just go and they don't really need their parents as much. I mean, I guess she needs me to pay for stuff, but she's going to college in September. And man, I just can't get over it. The Red Sox won the World Series in 04 and she was born in May. She was the miracle fetus. And it does not seem like 18 years ago. I'll tell you that. And you can remember it by the birthdays. If you have kids, you have those parties every year. File away what happened on the birthday each year. Like what happened when they were six? What happened when they were eight? What happened when they were 10? Because once you get to 18, it all becomes a blur and they become these little marks for, oh yeah, the 10th birthday.

That was when we went to Catalina. We rode the zip line and then we went to the Ivy for dinner and they had the fireworks Sunday. And that's the kind of stuff you remember when you get old and semi-senile like me. Anyway, happy birthday to my beloved daughter, Zoe Simmons. And let's start the podcast with our friends from Pearl Jam. all right we're taping this late it is a little past 10 o'clock on tuesday night i grabbed koc

i don't even know what he was doing but i was gonna solo at the top that game was so good All right, we're taping this late. It is a little past 10 o'clock on Tuesday night. I grabbed KOC. I don't even know what he was doing, but I was going to solo at the top. That game was so good. Grabbed KOC. He came out of his hyperbaric chamber, and he's ready to talk Lakers-Warriors game one. KOC, the biggest thing,

I mean, there's a lot of subplots for this game. It just felt like a huge game, didn't it? Like, for game one, it felt there was a finals energy. There's stars. It just felt important, right? Isn't that like the word you use? Like, yeah, like massive, important, memorable, historic. It was just so cool to see LeBron and Curry and just these two franchises and all the titles just kind of out there on the line.

Yeah. I mean, you got Anthony Davis playing 44 minutes. You know, Darvin Hamm really just saying, we got to steal this game. Like, you got to put it all out there. This is our opportunity. Them coming off two days rest. This is our opportunity to steal one on the road.

And AD, the performance he had, like ran out of gas a little bit down the stretch, it felt like. He was running on empty. But overall, throughout the game, and and jared vanderbilt the effort they put in on defense vanderbilt especially running around screens chase around stephen curry top locking him you know you know sticking by him full court it was a remarkable defensive effort game plan wise by the lakers and it felt like you know know, even though that series ended on Sunday, Bill,

like you said, it had like a big vibe. You could tell the Lakers are game planned for this series because with the Warriors and the Kings, you kind of game plan similarly for both of those teams. So maybe that worked to the Lakers advantage for both rest and game planning. I'm glad you mentioned the Darvin Ham going for it.

I totally agree. The 44 minutes for Davis and the 40 minutes for LeBron in a vacuum is insane, especially with Davis, who's made of glass. But I think you're right. Coming off that Game 7 emotional series where they had to play Friday night, seems like from the stories, the words kind of got pushed to the brink there with the young guys. And Curry had to give this big speech that Sean Serrani and Marcus Thompson wrote about. So you have this emotional win. And then all of a sudden you're playing two days later. And it did feel like the Lakers were like, we absolutely have to steal this one, which was so interesting when it became a 14-0 run. And it reminded me of five years ago when LeBron, he threw everything at them in the 2018 finals game one. And it's like, oh my God, they're going to steal it. And then the J.R. Smith play happens. They lose an OT and it felt like a double loss. Remember? It was like, oh no, now they have to beat these guys five times out of seven. That's not happening. And the series felt over. I felt that a little bit tonight during the 4-0 run comeback.

I was like, the Warriors win this. I actually think the Lakers cannot beat this team five times. But they prevail. It was really a championship effort by the Warriors down the stretch of that game. That's why they're the defending champs. That's why they have four. For a team that, you know, throughout the course of the game, they were definitely fatigued a bit. Um, I mean the, the fact that they were getting pummeled inside really for the first time in quite a while by ad with everything he was doing Lakers attacking the basket to show

that resilience down the stretch of the game shows why this series is anything but over golden state, you know, Stan Van Gunney talked about it on the broadcast in that fourth quarter. He's like, Steve Kerr has got to go to some high ball screens with Stephen Curry, just like we saw in that game seven against the Kings. And we did see a sprinkle of that down the stretch. And I would expect, you know, Michael Pina with the ringer tweeted out a stat during the game. Second Spectrum said he ran only, I think, 14, 15 pick and rolls in this game one. Now that's not nearly as many as we saw in that game seven against the Kings. I'd expect to see some more of that moving forward in the series.

The trouble for the Warriors is the fact that it's a lot different driving to the basket when it's AD in there and Jared Vanderbilt in help than it is when it's the Bonta Sabonis and Harrison Barnes in help. The Kings are a lot smaller of a front line than what the Lakers showed in that game one. That's going to be a big adjustment for the Warriors going against this team rather than Sacramento. Even LeBron has a little more size

too. Jay Adande tweeted the shot charts for Steph in game seven against the Kings and then Steph today. He had two shots in the paint today. It looked totally different. They basically, they did two things. They sagged off the shooters, right?

So, which the Kings did a little too, but this felt almost like they were building not just a wall for anybody to drive, but then they were also sending double guys at Steph and just basically trying to get the ball out of his hands. That might've been why the pick and roll stuff were down. I thought it was interesting. The last minute of the game, he didn't, he didn't, uh, pool took two of the shots, right?

What did you think about those, Bill? Were those the right decisions by pool? You know, Steph gets doubled on the three that pool takes, you know, 10 seconds. Well, the first one pool, pool drove down the middle with like 50 seconds left. And I actually liked the shot, and I thought he got fouled. I thought Davis crashed into him, and I was surprised they didn't call it. The

refs were fine in that game. The Lakers shot more free throws, but they were also pounding the paint, and the Warriors were jacking things. They were inside the whole game. Yeah, the Warriors took 53 threes. You're not going to shoot a lot of free throws taking 53 threes. The second one, Poole was open. You're not going to shoot a lot of free throws taking 53 threes. But the second one, Poole was open.

They're basically doubling Curry. They're like, you're not fucking... You're going to have to make a 35-foot fall away if you're going to want to shoot a three in this spot. He passed it to Draymond and Draymond swung it to Poole and he did have a really good look, but it felt I don't know, two feet too far?

Did you think it was going in? I didn't far. Like, did you think it was going in? I didn't. No, I didn't think it was going in. I do think he took it a little bit too deep. There was 10 seconds left. Maybe you can make a play. But, you know, before that shot, he's five of 10 from three. He's having his best game so far in the entire postseason.

You know, he's limiting mistakes. He had zero turnovers. He had six assists. He played fairly well overall throughout the game. I didn't mind the shot with 10 seconds left. Maybe there's a way to find Steph, but even prior to pool launching

for the three, Steph doesn't sprint through Draymond for a handoff. Draymond immediately swings the ball to pool. There's really no opportunity for that. I feel like if pool didn't shoot in that situation, it could have ended up being a disastrous possession with the Lakers trapping Steph near the half court at the logo,

and who knows how things would have resulted there. They got an open shot, even though it was a deep shot. And Curry got a good look a couple plays earlier that Davis just stuffed, which was kind of rare to see a step, just get stuffed on one of those floaters. So you, I,

you see that a handful of times we didn't talk about Davis enough. I went to game four in person and Davis sucked and was a step slow. And it was like the classic, if you catch Anthony Davis on the wrong night, you're just like, man, this guy, what a disappointment.

And then he has a game like today. He's 30, 23 and five in four blocks. Him and Tim Duncan in 03 were the only guys ever to have the 30, 20 and five with four blocks in playoffs. And the 44 minutes. Do you trust it? KOC. Is this is this just yet another? He's going to hurt people's feelings again? Or is this a little like in the bubble where all of a sudden he put together this stretch of awesome basketball and it's sustained? I think he showed at least once in the bubble

that he can sustain it as long as he's healthy. If there's some type of injury that causes him to be limited physically, that's where you have concerns. But like you said, that game four last round, he turns it off that game too. It's not like he doesn't have those moments. Not a small game either. They're only two,

one in the series with Memphis has two more home games. And his game two wasn't great either. And the last round either. But ever since then, that game four, game five, he was, you know, even though they lose, he was terrific. Game six, closing out Memphis. He's unbelievable,

unbelievable putting a lid on the rim and he carried this over to game one here. I think with Anthony Davis, it's more like what are the Warriors going to do to try to limit what some of he did in that game one? Because you mentioned it. They're helping off of the Warriors non-shooters, Draymond Green. They're sagging off Kavon Looney, giving him the same treatment that the Warriors gave

to DeMonta Sabonis last round. Anytime he's on the perimeter, they're saying off Gary Pete and all these non-shooters. So if you're the Warriors, can you, you know, you're, you're toying last round with not using that Looney Green front line. Can you do that for extended periods of time against the Lakers by going with just going with one of those guys and trying to have four shooters on the floor around Looney or around Draymond? Because that seems to be a problem for that Warriors offense in the half court. They're really stuck in the mud at times. Yeah, Looney and Green together, 8 for 20. And I don't think anyone guarded them all game. No, not at all. I thought the Lakers did a great job. The only thing that, if I had to nitpick

with Darvin Hamm, he called one timeout during the 14-0 run, but his dudes looked gassed at the end of that game. Even LeBron had, they called it a LeBron travel down the stretch. It was the right call too. It was the right call, but I mean, I couldn't believe that.

That might've been three times in his career that they've called that, but I thought they scouted him really well. If I'm the Warriors, I'm actually a little nervous because I shot 40% from three. I took 53 threes and I didn't turn the ball over. The things Kerr always talks about is, did we protect the boards and did we protect the ball?

They only had eight turnovers. The rebounds are pretty even, but they had no answer for Davis. Now, do I think he's going to get a 30 and 23 every game? No. Um, but when he's like that, I think it's going to be really hard for them, uh, to compete. And then the other guy is Russell was pretty good in this game. Right.

And then crunch time, like had a nice defensive stop where, uh, Curry attacked him and he, you know, he kind of held his own. I didn't expect we'd even see him in crunch time. Did you in any of these games? Yeah, replacing Vanderbilt came as a little bit of a surprise. That was because the Lakers' offense was struggling so much with Vando on the floor that they wanted to spark their offense, even though he ended up not helping on that end.

They just continued to not generate anything. But yeah, D'Lo played a good game. When it comes to that D'Angelo russell versus mike conley decision there was moments during the first round where you're like maybe conley's you know reliability would have made sense over d-low but you know we see it with d-low where he hits the three three pointers in the row at the end of game four to give him a chance in their comeback against Memphis. 31 points in game six with some of the offensive spark he provides in that game one. Even though D'Lo might have some lows like chasing around Klay Thompson around screens, sometimes he's setting off a bit too much. The offensive highs

from him make it all worth it. And you especially need that from d low when you have lebron james shooting 18 from three in the playoff shooting below 30 from three ever since early december lebron at some point i wonder if in during this series we're talking about what the warriors getting their non-shooters sagged off of will they at some point say you know what lebron here you go like are you giving your space you're not going to be able to drive against us unless it's a packed paint. Let's see if you can actually shoot from range because so far he hasn't throughout the postseason and really has been struggling for quite some time now. I wonder with LeBron there, he still makes an impact.

He's being used as a screener. He's playing hard on defense. He's making an impact in other ways. But can you limit him even more in that half court by just not defending those perimeter jumpers that he continues to take even with a minute left in the game? I'll tell you the three he took with under 30 seconds left. Oh, man. Which was like the quote unquote dagger three. I promise you the Warriors were delighted he was taking no doubt that that was their best case scenario for them. Oh, you're going to do the hero ball three. I promise you the Warriors were delighted he was taking it. No doubt.

That was their best case scenario for them. Oh, you're going to do the hero ball three? Awesome. You already have three points. 18%. 18% in the playoffs. Just go to the rim, LeBron. Look at us criticizing the second best player of all time. I think that's what makes LeBron LeBron, right? He really is not a good three-point

shooter. We have a four-month sample size of it now. And he was like, I'm going to make this. And he probably thought it was going in. But I think the Warriors are pretty happy about that. Right now at FanDuel, the Lakers are minus 164 to win the series. And Golden State is plus 138. I think this is going to be 2-2 after four games would be my guess. I'm sure the Warriors are going to adjust. I'm sure they're going to do some stuff. I don't think Davis is going to do that again.

The only thing I would say, well, two things. One, what's going to be the impact of the 84 minutes on LeBron and Davis, right? Because they're playing again Thursday. So, and then they play Saturday here and Monday here. So you're, you're already, it's a little Russian roulette with that, with those guys. Cause I, you know, I've said over and over again, like if they, they can get three straight rounds out of those guys without either

of them going down, God bless them. And then on the flip side, the Warriors now, eight really kind of fierce games. Like that King series was brutal and the pace of it was brutal. And now this game, same thing. And just how sustainable is this path going to be? They're going to have a seven game series.

This feels like it's probably going to be a seven game series. Next round, Denver, who is the best team in either conference right now. Setting up for Jokic, isn't it, Bill? Oh my God. And Jokic, you know, I'm sure he's just, Denver

is probably just hoping these two teams beat the crap out of each other. But I feel, is it crazy to think this just feels like a seven gamer? I picked the Lakers in six, but it just feels like it's going to go to seven games. I know what you mean. It just feels like it's one of those series that's going to go seven. Yeah, it does.

I picked Lakers in six partially because the note you hit there that the Warriors just had seven games of hell facing the Kings. And entering this series, that's going to be a different vibe with the Lakers. They like to slow things down more. They like to pummel you with their size and length. It's a different vibe there, but it's going to wear them out in a different type of way. So I pick Lakers in six.

I'll stick to that for now, then finishing that off at home. But it's going to go along no matter what. I'd be shocked if this is over in five games. I never really had a pick for this. I didn't bet the series. To me, it was like if Davis and LeBron can stay on the court and stay healthy, I think the Lakers are going to win. And I don't trust that that's going to happen. So I don't know if that's even a pick. But the reason I thought the Lakers, weirdly, because half of their team

they just traded for, I think they know who their guys are and how to use them already. You know, I said this to Rasil on Sunday. They do, Ham does have a feel for what he has with these nine guys, where you look at the Warriors,

like, Jermichael Green played in the game today. Did you think we'd see Jermichael Green again in the playoffs? You know, Peyton and DiVincenzo, they both played 12. Poole played 30. Moody played six. We don't see Kaminga anymore.

I still feel like Kerr's trying to figure out what he has. And it's game eight of the playoffs. And I don't think he knows. I think he knows what he has with his best five. I don't think he knows what he's getting from pool night tonight. I don't think he can play Peyton and Draymond Green together because then you're three on five offensively and everybody's sagging off.

So it's like they're experimenting on the fly and they're defending champs. And the team that got thrown together at the trade deadline feels more stable. That's a weird series. Yeah, for sure. And I think with Kerr, you're probably going to see him try out potentially an Anthony Lamb type. You could see something like that. If he doesn't

feel like something's working with Moses Moody or Jermichael Green, maybe he continues to throw darts even further down his bench. And on the Lakers side of things, really the only weak spot off the bench today, granted he's a plus four in the game he he hits a three-pointer Troy Brown really hits he struggled chasing around Klay Thompson on some of those off-ball screens maybe Ham goes you know to Beasley or Walker at some point during the series but other than that you know I feel like you're right Bill the Lakers me and Verno talked about this mismatch as well. It's like part of the reason why I was so high on the Lakers after the deadline was LeBron might not be the clear best player in the world anymore, but he doesn't have

to be every single night with this team. Sometimes it's going to be Austin Reeves running pick and roll down the stretch of games like in game one against Memphis. Sometimes it's going to be Austin Reeves running pick and roll down the stretch of games like in game one against Memphis sometimes it's going to be D'Lo getting hot sometimes it's going to be a surprise player like Rui Hachimura Dennis Schroeder we know for years he can do that never mind what AD can do so I have to be like with the Lakers they have so many different guys that can go off and attack mismatches or just ride the hot hand whereas Whereas with the Warriors, it is so Steph-focused around him right now that unless it's Poole having a hot night or Klay on a heater,

they need that 50-bomb from Steph on a lot of nights. Whereas the Lakers get it from different players, and sometimes it will be LeBron. I feel like both of these teams lose to Denver. You think it's Denver's year? That they got enough defensively? I just like Denver. So transcendent.

They're just checking boxes. Like even the one game they lost in the playoffs so far, even that one, they could have rolled over. I remember they fought back from 12 down. And I think that team

just has a lot of continuity and a lot of spirit. And they have just a transcendent guy who's at the absolute peak of his powers. And Murray looks like Murray again. And I just think that's the safest bet, especially when you go, I'm going to talk about the East later with Chris Mannix, the Celtics Sixers series. And you're just like, who do you like in the East? It's just, there's flaws all over the place.

So let's talk about Nick's heat really quickly before we go. Cause I grabbed you out of nowhere at 10 o'clock at night. Did you see anything from that game that made you feel a little differently about a series where Miami already banked the win they needed and sent Jimmy Butler home? Anything for the Knicks to take away from that game? I mean, I think with Butler being out from Miami, you can kind of scratch that one off. You know, Miami, Miami, they're sagging off of Nick shooters in game one, daring, you know, them to shoot OB top and takes 11 three pointers. Hearts not hitting anything. And in this game, game two, Nick shoot 40% from three.

Sometimes it can be that simple. But I think overall that the big difference was Julius Randle being in the game for game two for the Knicks with the shot creation. He provided attack and closeouts creating from the perimeter, helping Jalen Brunson out and RJ Barrett out in ways that they didn't have that element in their front court and game one. That's going to have to be the adjustment for Miami with how do you handle Julius Randle with the size he provides as a playmaker moving forward

in the series. Feels like another seven gamer. Great Brunson game today though. That Brunson starts off slow and then especially like so much history in that building. It's like the ghost of Nick's past. They've tapped into something that

the Celtics have been doing this forever, right? They're just decorating the court side in the lower bowl with just ex-Celtics and it's worked forever. The Lakers do it a little bit too. But the Knicks now at least have enough of these guys from, they have Mello, but then a lot of the Ewing guys and they just populate them with all these celebrities. All throughout. Let me ask you a weird question. Cause you're, you're, you're young. I mean, we hired you, you were, I think, 15 years old. It feels like 2016.

I can't remember. I'm really 32. But the, so the Knicks in your lifetime were never really good except for like that couple year window in the late nineties, early two thousands when you were like a kid, like the Knicks have never mattered really since you've loved basketball. Is it weird when you're watching them and everybody's talking about, this is amazing, the Knicks, all the history, but you have no history of the team. what's your perception of well i think that i think like you're growing up a red sox fan you get the red sox yankees rivalry growing up a patriots fan pounding on the jets you sense the

passion of jets fans you you yeah you know losing to the giants of the super bowl sorry to bring it up you sense the passion of new york so i felt like i always got it you know from the new york overall perspective with their sports teams and you know attending a knicks game i don't think my first knicks game was until i was with the ringer but even when the knicks sucked the crowd just had a vibe like there was some energy in the building you could sense the passion around the game much like boston you know much Lakers fans, some of these real passionate fan bases. So I always kind of felt it through their other teams, just knowing the passion of that fan base for all of their sports teams. I could relate to it, you know, through the rivalry, you know,

with our own city. But like seeing the Knicks now be good, like you get a taste of it with the bing bong video a couple of years ago and you see the fans go fans going nuts every single game. Now it's, it's really cool to see that rewarded. Was it like this in the nineties? Like without social media and everything, could you sense this, you know, you know, no matter where you were in the country or in the world with the Knicks fans? I mean, the Knicks were never good when they won in 70. They had that run in 70. Then in 73, they won.

And then they just cratered. They had the one really good Bernard King year when they went head-to-head against the Celtics. They cratered again. Then Ewing came back, late 80s. And they were always kind of, you know, somebody would beat them in round one, round two. Then they finally ascended. They made the finals that one year. And that run from 94 to 90, or I'm

sorry, 92 to, I don't know, 2000. But they were relevant every year. And I think that's, so when you see those guys at the games now, it's all the guys from that era, But it was really only a nine-year era. And then they weren't relevant again for 20 years, other than the one mellow year. And the one mellow year, they got bounced in round two. So it was all this pent-up energy from New York then. Yeah, but there's the DNA. And then you have with the older,

older fans who grew up hearing about the Bradley Frazier-Reed teams. But Bernard had that one great year. So there's enough, but it's just, it's crazy. They haven't been better. You know, you would think that would be the Celtics rival, but the Celtics rival is Philly. That's, that's what it's been my whole life, you know, and I, way more than the Lakers. Like we've played, I don't even know how many times we've played Philly in a playoff series. So yeah, it's, it's cool to see the Knicks kind of,

it's a taste of what it should have been like if they had better ownership and better luck, basically. But yeah, great series. I think from a subplot standpoint, this playoffs is about as packed as we've had. You go through all the teams, like even the Jimmy Butler thing, which felt like the biggest story in the league a week ago,

and now it's like seventh. Now if Curry and LeBron or the Celtics could have fall apart, it's just amazing content for people like us. It's a great playoff. I'm having a lot of fun. Every single series is fun in its own way. Even like you mentioned Denver, they held Phoenix to 87 points.

They take two months off playing defense. You don't get to tangs as MVP chances because they're saving it up for this, for this playoff run. They've just flipped the switch and it's amazing to see them really dismantling that Suns team so far. All right, well, you can see KFC on FanDuelTV

on the stuff we were doing with them. You popped on Through the Ringer. You have Beyond the Arc. Your little video, half hour video show that we have, plus on the mismatch. How's that? You like the FanDuelTV stuff? I think it's been really good. It's fun. I mean, we're just

in the baby stages. They were building it up now. It's fun to get going with Through the Ringer with Tate, Beyond the Arc, my show and you know all the other stuff we got on there it's uh we're building it up and it's been a lot of fun so far looking forward to doing more and more in the months to come with these great playoffs and then the draft with Wemby

and free agency. The lottery we got the lottery how many weeks from the two weeks from the lottery right? Two weeks yeah May 16th baby let's go. You still have Miller over Scoot? Yeah. I got him second still right now. Scoot third.

Scoot third. Yes. Is that a divisive opinion or is that like? It feels probably like 50-50. A lot of people have Scoot. So it depends on who gets second pick. Yeah, for sure. You need a guard or you need a footer. Yeah. I i mean like on your personal board you know i have miller second

regardless but mock draft wise it would very much depend on who gets the pick so have we measured wimby yet i mean he i think he technically measured at seven foot four um but there's been stuff out there like he's actually seven foot five. He just doesn't want to be listed as seven foot five, kind of like Garnett didn't want to be a seven footer. So we'll get those real measurements at some point, I'm sure. Here's my idea. Pay-per-view measurements for just for Wemby. If it was like 1999, it's like, we're going to actually measure Wemby right now. I'm like, all right, how much is it?

20 bucks? All right. I'll watch this. Because I think he might be like 7'6". You could talk to me in a 7'6 with him. Yeah. Because Kareem was a legitimate 7'7", like 3 1⁄2", 7'4", but always listed himself a little lower.

But I think these tall, tall, tall guys are actually like, they don't want to know. Because 7'5", 7'6", you almost sound like a freak. Right? but I think these tall, tall, tall guys are actually like, they don't want to know. Yeah, because seven, like seven, five, seven, six, you almost sound like a freak, right? So he's like, yeah, I'm seven, three. He is, it's a compliment. Well, that's true, he is a freak. It's a total compliment.

But Bill Walton was seven, two and he always used to say he was six, 11. So I think there's, you know, it's weird when people lie about their height that they're actually taller. Anyway, all right, KOC, you can check them out on when people lie about their height that they're actually taller. Anyway. All right. KOC, you can check them out on the mismatch and on our FanDuel TV stuff.

Thanks for staying up with me. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on, Bill. It's NBA playoff times, my friends. Turn crossovers into cash with FanDuel. Just visit FanDuel.com slash BS right now. Place a $5 bet and you'll get an instant $150 back in bonus bets.

Win or lose. I'm going to either do a same game parlay on Wednesday or Thursday. I'll announce it on my Twitter feed. I'm red hot. I won on last Wednesday with a LeBron Giannis parlay. Same gamer. I won on Sunday with a Warriors Curry pointsnis parlay. Same gamer. I won on Sunday with a Warriors, Curry,

points and threes. Same gamer. We boosted both of them. Everybody was super happy. There is no better place to bet all the playoff action than America's number one sports book. Just go to fanduel.com slash BS.

Sign up to get $150 in bonus bets when you bet your first five bucks. FanDuel, the official sports betting partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. First online real money wager only. $10 deposit required. Refund issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire in 14 days.

Restrictions apply. See full terms at fanduel.com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Hope is here. In Massachusetts, visit GamblingHelpLineMA.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24-7 support. In New York, call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY. Fando is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under agreement with Kansas Star Casino

LLC. In Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, or Virginia, call 1-800-GAMBLE or visit Fandle.com slash RG. Call 1-800-NEXTSTEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 in Arizona. In Connecticut, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat. In Indiana, 1-800-9-WITH-IT. In Kansas, 1-800-522-4700 or visit ksgamblinghelp.com. Louisiana, 877-770-STOP. In Maryland, visit mdgamblinghelp.org. In Wyoming, 800-522-4700. In West Virginia, visit 1800gambler.net. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the

gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that are when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired, your stomach feels full. Miller Lite, it's your friend. It just accompanies whatever else you're doing. You're super happy with it. Opening an ice cold Miller Lite can signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. All right, so we're taping

this part of the podcast. It is 1130 in the morning Pacific time. We have a new NBA team owner here, Matt Ishbia, who bought the Suns and the Mercury, I guess a couple months ago for a pretty big valuation or valuation, I always call it a valuation. But we're catching you with the Suns down 0-2. I thought you'd look way more somber. I thought you'd look like the guy from Anchorman with the beard, drinking milk.

Are you okay? How are you handling playoff losses? Hey, you know, we're working hard. I feel good about our team. We're going home. Obviously, Denver's a great team. And so I feel good about our guys. I know Coach Monte Williams and the whole team is ready to go Friday night. And hopefully we can bounce back and protect home court and win a game or two. So what's it like? I want to go through the whole world of you decide to buy a team, you buy a team, and now you're suddenly the owner of the team. So let's go backwards. So you're circling this for a while. You played basketball in college, you were at Michigan State.

Then you made a bunch of money and you start thinking, all right, NBA. So when is this on your radar? How many years ago? And how do you start getting your tentacles out, trying to feel it out? Yeah. It was obviously a dream to one day play in the NBA. I wasn't good enough to do that. So I played for Tom Izzo at Michigan State. I had a great experience there. And that was just working for the last, now it's 20 years now with this mortgage. So I got here as a 12th person. And finally, about four or five years ago, it's like, gosh, I'm making some money. Could I ever maybe buy into a team or maybe buy a team? But it was, what happened was I wasn't making enough money to keep up with the valuations. And so always was watching from afar. It was always a dream come true. I love

business. I love basketball. And as business kept getting better and better and you know, the dream became more of a reality. And then obviously getting the Phoenix Suns and Mercury was like beyond the dream. And so I was so excited and it was so much better than I even could have imagined. That's how great it's been the first couple of months. So do you float it out?

Like you must know some people who either own teams or own pieces of teams. Are you floating that out? Is there some secret slack? Is there some text thread where you're like, Hey, who's available? So are you just, it's almost like buying a house where you've decided what neighborhood you want and you're circling. How does it work? You know, honestly, it started with, you know, first, um, being able to financially do it. And

the second thing, this is what I really want to do. And if you want to do anything in life, whether it's business, whether it's by a team, whether it's be a great husband, wife, whatever it may be, you have to put your focus on it. So I started putting my focus on it years ago. And the focus was not like calling up and saying, I got a couple billion, who wants to sell? It was building relationships. First, the league office, NBA office, got a chance to meet Adam Silver and these people and some all the great executives there.

Then meeting owners, minority owners, then a majority owner, then flying to a game and having dinner with Mark Lazzari, like just like different owners. And you just start doing it. And it's been years. Like people have no idea. NFL owners, NBA owners, spending time asking questions, getting on Zooms, doing every aspect of it. It's been years in the making for the one opportunity.

Like, will Phoenix ever come up? Could it be Phoenix? Like that'd be the dream, right? And then Phoenix Suns came up for sale and the Mercury and it was in. So, but you, it's not like you just wait around and just, Oh, I'm going to start bidding on a team because it came for sale. That that's, that's a surefire way to not get the team. And I believe the one way to do it is you have to put the work and the effort in. And it was years of work that no one knew about that. Uh, that's, that's helped me get to where I'm at.

So like it's Adam Silver's birthday, you're sending him a text, send him a nice, nice little thing of steaks. You're just kind of working on every aspect and not just Adam Silver, who's always, but every person that's involved with it, built me in those relationships, met a lot of people, players going to games, going to the, the, the Las Vegas, you know you know, the events in Las Vegas, the summer leagues, like just being around and starting to meet people. So you came pretty close to buying them with the bucks. And I actually talked, you first came on my radar because I'd heard about that, that there was a possibility you might buy Mark Lazarus steak in the whole thing. And then when the sun's, when that thing finally blew up and it was clear they were becoming available, I remember even mentioning on a podcast right as that was

happening, I was like, cause I had heard your name. It was, it's almost like the lottery in the NBA where you kind of know who the, who the key guys are going to be. You became a name that kept popping up and I'd heard about the Bucks thing. Did you back off the Bucks thing because you thought the Suns were coming or like, what was the timing of that? The reality is this, you know, the Phoenix Suns, like, so I'm from Detroit. I still live here with my three kids in Michigan. The Detroit Pistons was always like my team growing up. And so it was always like, could I ever buy the Pistons? When I realized that that wasn't going to become for sale, you know, it was like, where would you want to buy a team? And the answer is Phoenix. Like if you, but then it comes down

to like, oh, he's not going to ever sell the team. Right. So he started going through that process. But Phoenix, like if I'm in Michigan, where do I want to spend my winters? Phoenix. If I, Phoenix Suns is like, I think a sleeping giant could be one of the best franchises sports. And I had a WNBA team, which was very important to me because I wanted to have both. And so Phoenix was one of few that the owner owned both. And so it was like the perfect storm and dream. And so Milwaukee, I talk to every owner. I get involved with everything.

But the reality is when the Phoenix Suns became a possibility, 100% of my focus on the Phoenix Suns and Mercury and how can I make this happen? And that's what we were able to do. I did a thing on my podcast in September about that. I thought this was the best team that was going to become available. And it reminded me of when the Warriors became available in the 2010s. They're a pretty damaged franchise at that point, right? They hadn't had a lot of playoff success, but they had this incredible market.

They were right in Silicon Valley, like ground zero, basically. They had Steph at that point and they had this incredible fan base. And I remember writing it at the time, like this is a team that if the right owner comes in, they can balloon this into a whole different thing. Now you look at Phoenix, really good market, players like living there.

And an awesome fan base that dates back to 1970 that really every decade they've been relevant. They've always had these pockets and stretches of finals, conference finals, a lot of great players. So were you looking at this like, this is the best team that's going to be available for the next 20 years? Did you map it out? Did you make tiers? How did you figure it out? Absolutely. So I mapped out a whole bunch of different things from, from destination for players, as you mentioned to fan base, which I think we got the best fan base in all basketball, right? I went through a bunch of different things and Phoenix was the choice. The problem is I didn't think Phoenix would ever come for sale, right?

So you never really knew it would come for sale. So that day that it got announced and, uh, you know, it was like, OK, all of our attention. This is to become a reality. Let's go get this. Let's figure out the right way to do it. And so I think Phoenix Suns can be the elite franchise in all the NBA and we are going to work towards that with great people. It's not going to have overnight. And that's the goal, along with the WNBA, with the Mercury. And so we're going to do great things. I got lucky. I got a great place, great location, great fan base. Now I got to put the right leadership in place as in and myself along with other leaders and start executing on the plan. And we're going to start, we started already, but we're going to keep going. So there's a business piece

to this. There's a, you love basketball piece of this, but it's also fun to be the owner of a basketball team. I think out of all the sports, you get sick courtside, you know, somebody like you, most people, unless you were in the Midwest or, you know, somebody like you, most people, unless you were in the Midwest or, you know, familiar with the mortgage world or whatever, most people don't know who you are. Now you become like in a weird way, like a celebrity. Um, are you ready for the celebrity of all this? There it's a totally different level of fame and recognition, right? Yeah, it's definitely different. Uh, it's not my, it wasn't my't my goal or isn't my favorite part of it, but I know what comes with it. And it's an honor that people are excited that I'm the owner. And

when I'm in Phoenix, people are proud and happy and excited for me to be there. So it's an honor that they want me to be there. I recognize that people notice things I'm doing. And I have a little bit in the mortgage business, but mortgage business is one one millionth of what the MBA is. And so, yeah, it's been a little bit different, but at the same time, I'm embracing that and recognizing that that's part of the game. And I just got to keep pushing forward with all the great positive things. And it's still positive. It's not a negative. It's just, it's just different. Have you been practicing your sitting down courtside fist pumps and the kind of things that happen when you're getting camera time? You got, you got to get like a coach. Yeah. You know, so I was the end of the bench for Michigan State

basketball for so long. So I know how to fist pump and get things going. Like I'm first class in that. You should look at the old tape from 2000. I can high five with the best of them. That's good. You got the resume. What, what kind of feedback were you getting from the people in Phoenix and extended Phoenix? Because, you know, we don't need to dwell on the previous ownership situation, but it wasn't awesome. And they were in the news a lot. There were bad headlines. He was a pretty polarizing owner, Robert Sarver. And then you come in and it's... If this were a business, this is like you buy a restaurant that people really liked that had kind of gone sideways a tiny bit.

Now you can come in and reinvigorate the restaurant. What are people saying to you? Like, are they thanking you? Or are they like, what are you hearing? Yeah, you know, people have been very grateful to me and I'm grateful to them that they welcomed me to the Valley, welcomed me to the Phoenix area. And so, you know, I don't, you know,

the past with the past ownership, a lot of things happened. I wasn't there, obviously. So I told the guys and gals at the company, like, we're going forward. We're going to go forward with this vision. I laid out the vision to every person that worked the organization, including the players. Here's what we're going to go do. And here's how we're going to accomplish it.

And then we're going to work every day to do it. And so, you know, yeah, it was obviously things weren't whatever. We never won a championship in Phoenix. That doesn't mean that we're going to win a championship tomorrow or next year, but we are going to work towards that in the Mercury and the Suns. The Mercury have won three, but the Mercury and the Suns, and we're going to make it the best place to work. Great for the fans, great for the community. And so, yeah, I think people are very excited that I'm the new owner. I think that they know I'm young. I have energy. I'm excited about it. I love

basketball. I want to win. Like, I'm a fan more than I am an owner. I'm much closer to the fans than I am like to the owners. Like, I just want to win. So whatever it takes to win, we're going to do what it takes to win. And that's what we're going to try every single year. And we can't win every year. You can't win every game, but we're going to try. Are you going to be one of those crazy owners

that suits up every once in a while for the scrimmage and shoot some threes and you become like a stretch four? Are you going to get out there and put the shorts on? I mean, I know they have 10 day contracts out there. I don't think we're going to use one on me. I think there's a going to get out there and put the shorts on? I mean, I know they have 10-day contracts out there. I don't think we're going to use one on me. I think there's a lot better players out there. But I used to be okay.

I used to be very average, but okay at the best. So what was your game? Give me like an NBA comparison. So I was the hustling point guard that ran the offense really, really well. The leader of the team in high school and college. In high school, I scored 25 points a game. But in college, I was the guy that knew the offense, ran the right plays, made the right passes,

was the coach on the floor is kind of what my game was. Once again, not good enough to be at Michigan State, but I worked hard to maintain that spot on that team. So a little more like TJ McConnell or a little more in the Peyton Pritchard kind of area I'll take the TJ McConnell comparison I think he's a good player like or you know I could think of a lot of other players but not like you know thinking of like great you think of great point guards that couldn't really score that much and that weren't that athletic and that's probably me so like I

had the mind to play I'm at a good mind, a good court vision, but that's about it. What's your Phoenix Suns kind of history? Like, how much do you know about the franchise? Do you feel like you had to bone up? Because there's a lot of close calls and almost and heartbreaks. And, you know, it's like one of those secretly tortured franchises that you can't say it's tortured in a way like the Kings or somebody like that because they've had so many great players and so many great seasons and so many great runs. But how much of the backstory do you know about? So a good amount of it.

So I was obviously growing up a Pistons fan, Bad Boys fan. And so when the Suns and the 92, 93 team with Kevin Johnson and Barkley and Marley and Chambers, I was a big fan of that team because in Detroit, we don't like the Bulls and we don't like Jordan. So I was cheering for the Suns, anyone to beat them. And they obviously didn't win. So I became a Suns fan back then, back in the early nineties, I was 12 years old. And then, but then obviously followed, I love point guards. So Steve Nash was one of my favorite point guards. And so he's a super point guard, a super player, MVP of the league. I would say he's my size. He's a little taller than me,

but he's a super player. So I always was a big Steve Nash fan. So I watched that generation. And obviously, you know, more recently, Devin Booker and these guys, like seeing what Devin is doing. He's from the state of Michigan.

And so naturally a huge fan of him. And so I've been a Phoenix Suns fan from a distance. That's one of the reasons I thought of myself of like, that would be the perfect franchise. There's so much I knew about him and cared about him and cheered from him, you know, from, from afar. How much is true of the Kevin Durant trade story that they were kind of at a steelmate. And even though you didn't officially own the team yet, you kind of came in the day before and you were like, guys, let's, this is Kevin Durant. Let's

go. Let's do whatever it takes. Because stuff's been reported. Is some of it apocryphal? What's true? Yeah. But when we made the trade, I owned the team. But at the same time, when it got announced December 20th, there were certain rights that I had while the NBA was vetting. So I was already interacting with James Jones, our general manager, does a great job. And so when that trade became a possibility, it really started with the other owner, Joe Sy, reaching out to me. This is the day before I actually closed on the team. I think whatever that Monday of that week. And so that's when it started, where we started talking about it. I think they had just traded Kyrie the day before. And, you know, James and Ryan Resch and everyone was involved.

I know James was talking to Monty. I wasn't spending time with everybody, but, you know, I was involved. But, you know, our team made a decision that this was the best chance for us to win a championship. And Kevin Durant, I mean, this guy is unbelievable. Not only because you see him on the court, but you see and everyone else sees. But the work ethic of this man, the drive, the grind. Like, I couldn't be any happier to have him on our team. Him and Booker. And of course we've got some other great guys with Chris and DeAndre. I'm not going to name everyone, but like it was, it was an awesome, awesome thing. I'm so excited about it. And we

got these guys for a couple more years to do great things together. So there was no gulp moment when you were like, all right, bridges, Johnson, Crowder for first and the swap. And you're just looking at it on a whiteboard. Like, man, that's a lot. Now, not at all. You got, it takes what it takes to win. You got to try to win. You can sit there and say, let's try to be a fifth seed. Let's try to be in the middle. And we can get, we can get knocked out in the second round as we were in the second round, right? Or we can win a championship. There's no guarantees to win, but if you don't try, you're, they're going to know me for 50 years as the owner in the second round right or we could win a championship there's no guarantees to win but if you don't try you're they're gonna know me for 50 years as the owner in phoenix i'm gonna try to win every time we can we're never gonna be like oh

well let's kind of play it straight let's prepare for this you can either plan to win or you can go try to win i'm not planning to win i'm gonna go try to win and yeah do you give up players like we didn't want to give up mccall or cam these are great players we wanted them on our team we definitely want to give up four first round picks, but it's Kevin Durant. You put him with Devin Booker. I think we have two of the top five, maybe two of the top 10 players in the NBA today. And I have them not,

I didn't borrow them for three months. I got Kevin Durant for three more years. I got Devin for five more years. Like we got a run going. Yeah, it's funny. I always had a running bit in my column and my podcast about, I used to call it new owner syndrome when a new owner would take over an NBA team and they kind of want to put their imprint

on right away. But usually it'd be a terrible trade or a crazy trade or some sort of huge swing. This was a little different because you got Kevin Durant. It's tough to be like, oh my God, I can't believe they traded for the 14th best player of all time or 15th or whatever. But you're in the mix. I think there was, didn't you feel like as somebody who loves basketball, there did seem like some new guy syndrome with this team because he just hasn't played enough games with everybody. And that, to me, that was the red flag for this year. How fast can everybody seem like they've been together for a long time?

Because continuity is so important in basketball. You can kind of still feel that in these games, right? Yeah. Well, we're still gelling. I mean, I think we played at what, 14, 15 games with Kevin out there. And so it's still, and really only in the playoffs has been seven games where at the high intensity level and he's playing 40, 45 minutes. So there's still gelling time and coach Monty Williams is putting everyone together and trying to make it all work. And, but the reality is the best chance for us to win a championship this year is with Kevin Durant. And the best chance for us to win a championship next year is with Kevin Durant next to Devin Booker next to our guys. And so to me, honestly, you know, I know people like it's always good to like, Oh, well, what if they would have done this? Or what if they went to trade? It's Kevin Durant,

right? It's not even a discussion. You get Kevin Durant on a team, one of the top 10 players, top 15 players that's ever touched a basketball all with Devin Booker. And it's Kevin Durant, right? It's not even a discussion. You get Kevin Durant on a team one of the top 10 players, top 15 players that's ever touched a basketball along with Devin Booker. And it's not like Kevin Durant's in his last year. We got years to go. We're going to work together. He makes everyone else around him better. Devin's already better.

Book makes everyone else around him better. And people want to come play with these two guys. We're going to keep winning and we're going to make sure we win at the highest level. And the goal was to win a championship. Well, now you can go away during the draft too. You can just, you take a trip, go to Europe, go wherever. You're not going to have a first round pick for like five years. You just leave. Yeah. We got one next year. We got one next year. So we, you know, we have a draft pick first round,

but yes, we have every other year we lost four years. Um, but it's worth it. And hopefully our first round picks that we gave up are all going to be in the twenties and 25th pick in the rap because we're going to be winning. So, all right. So Cuban, his era comes in late nineties, two thousands and wick and that kind of generation of owners, right? Like the kind of the tech, the early tech era guys, the younger guys that think outside the box guys though, why don't we have a charter plane yet? Why are locker rooms so crappy?

Just kind of reinvigorating what it's like to own a team. It's not, we're not just kind of the caretakers of this team. We want this to be this living organism and we want to take advantage of opportunities that are coming. And you see some of the evaluations, like the Celtics were, I don't know, 370, something like that.

Now it's got to be 15 times that. The Warriors, what they did don't know, 370, something like that. Now it's got to be 15 times that. The Warriors, what they did with their team, the Mavericks. Now your generation's coming in. What are the opportunities? What do you see for this generation going forward that those guys saw in the early 2000s with how to take an asset, make it a much bigger asset? What's it going to be for your generation? So a couple of things. First off, I think those guys are all amazing. I got a chance to meet them. I've idolized those guys that you just mentioned. And now I get to sit in the same room with Mark Cuban and Whit Grote. That's pretty cool stuff, right? Secondly, I might look at it a little

differently. I think of things like, how do we make the NBA fan experience phenomenal? How do we dominate that? How do we change the game and NBA fan experience phenomenal? How do we dominate that? How do we change the game and give it more global? How do we do things differently? Like, I'm not as focused on valuations. Like, money always follows success. And that's how I built my mortgage business and built my life. And so we're going to focus on the fans.

We're going to focus on taking care of the players. Like, what do I got to do to make the players even better, healthier? All these, like, technology, science, like, and do things at the new level, not thinking like, well, if I do this, we'll make this like that will follow. I don't even pay attention to it. I'm not selling the team ever. So I don't care if the value is 4 billion forever or 400 billion is not going anywhere. And so my focus on the players, the fans, the experience, and quit. Honestly, I make a good amount of money in my mortgage business. I just want to have fun. This is fun. Like I to win. We're going to compete at the Phoenix Suns and the Mercury.

There's a lot of progress we can make in the women's sports. I'm very excited about that opportunity, the WNBA. So I look at it maybe differently. I don't have a silver bullet to solve these things, but I want to make the game better and help in any way I can with the players, the fans, and that experience. And I think the valuations, that stuff will follow. Well, one of the things you did, it just got recently announced about putting the games on free TV next year. And I know there's some things you can't talk about with that, but the concept of NBA teams walling off their games, making them pay games, it's not much different than what we deal with with something like podcasts, where we can make podcasts exclusive on Spotify, or we can make them wide so everybody can hear them and

just try to make more ad revenue. When you're putting the games on free TV and you're trying to widen the audience for it, you have, to me, for what you just laid out, what do you care? You're going to own the team for the next 50 years. Wouldn't you want as many people as possible to see the games? Isn't that a better way to get kids and people from all kinds of different backgrounds to watch? Aren't you building fans? Why don't more teams think this way? You know, I don't know. I can't speak for others, but from my perspective, you just hit it on the head. Like I was a kid going to the game with my dad on my birthday, like going and watching the games, like not being able to watch the basketball game in my city would be crazy. Like, how can you not?

And so hearing about that, I don't know what's going on and why other people think of it. Like sometimes people think short-term money is more important than long-term. I don't focus on money at all, honestly. And I know it sounds crazy because people say, oh, yeah, but never focused on it. Focus on winning, focus on doing right. And so to me, I think it's the obvious choice. It seems simple to me. Like just put the game on. Everyone should watch it. Three million households in Arizona are going to watch the games. They're going to become huge Suns fans. Like, well, will that help your

merchandise revenue? Maybe, but if not, it's still pretty cool. We've got 3 million people watching Booker and Durant and our whole team. Like it's pretty cool. And so like, that's what this is about. It's not about making money always. People focus, always think about money, money. Like, how about just go do good things and have fun and win and succeed. It's not about making money always. People focus, always think about money, money. Like, I will just go do good things and have fun and win and succeed. And like I said, money has always followed wherever I've went with those situations. But the reality is I'm just excited

to be able to get it out to more fans and make that change as quick as possible. Yeah, I think the finances were, you know, there's some deals like the Lakers. I think it was like a $7 billion deal. I get it. When the money's crazy, I get it. But out here living in LA, the Dodgers weren't on one of the two cable systems for

years and years and years. And they made more money that way, but I never understood it. I never understood why you'd want to limit your audience and especially limit the audience of the next generation of fans, the up and comers. And even like you see the stuff the NBA is doing this year where they're making the finals times a little bit earlier, right?

It's a small thing, but to me that it's that stuff that matters. And that's the stuff you have to think about. How are you going to get a nine-year-old fan to stay up till midnight to watch a basketball game? You may not be able to. So I think I'll be interested to see

how it works out for you. How do you measure success from that? Just from ratings? You know, I measure success from fans, fan experience, making sure that more people like, how do we make Phoenix Suns the number one, you know, we're the biggest fan base, social media following, people following my guys on the team, more players want to come. Like we want to be the elite franchise, right? WNBA, Mercury, NBA Suns. And so you got to start by getting more people watching your games, right? And you got to take care of your fans, take care of your players. And so there's a lot of measurements, but people making money, the measurement will drive you in the wrong direction in almost all parts of life, with your personal life, with your business. If you make money the goal, you will fail most of

the time. Make success the goal and money will follow. And if it doesn't follow, you're out of hell of a time because you won a lot and it's fun to win. I have to ask you about the vote to approve you as the owner was 29 to nothing with one person abstaining, which led me on a whole Google deep dive. And you have this little business rivalry with Dan Gilbert, the Cleveland owner who decided not to vote. He abstained. He abstained on the vote and it was 29-0 instead of 30-0, which got me excited because we haven't had a lot of owner feuds in the FBA. Is this a feud? What's going on here? So listen, I can go talk for hours on it or I'll talk for a minute. And the minute's probably easier. It's like, he doesn't like me and I don't like him. Right. That's how it is. Business. His company used to

be number one in mortgage. UWM, my business is number one in mortgage. I don't like the way they do business in a lot of things. He probably doesn't like the way we do things. We're in the same town. We compete. We're winning. That's what it is right now. And the reality is people ask me what I thought about that. I knew without a question that that'd probably be how he handled it. And the best part is now you get to see who I see. Very simple. Now you see who I see and what I know about that man.

This is great. So I'm ruling out any Suns Cavaliers trades probably for the next couple of years? I won't be calling on the trades. But like I said, I wish him nothing but the best. I have no animosity. The reality is though, don't think we're not competing. And, you know, and I want, I know he's not doing health wise. I wish him nothing but the best, but the reality is in the mortgage business and now in the basketball for whatever it is, I'm trying to win in everything I do. And that's what we're going to be. And if someone does things the wrong way, which he's done, I'm going to call them out on it. And that's what I've done. So if you see him at the owners meetings, is it like a handshake? Do you avoid each other?

What happens? I have no problem shaking anyone's hand anytime, but we have not. Okay. Well, I'll shake your hand if there's a Celtics Suns finals, if we run into each other courtside. I'm not going to let the Celtics Suns stand between us after we're spent. I appreciate that. I'm going to meet everybody. Can I ask you about Bianco Pizza? Do you understand the importance

of Bianco Pizzeria in the Phoenix area and how it's the fulcrum of the entire Phoenix culture? I do not know that. Give it to me. All right, that's it. It's Chris Bianco, famous chef, opened a pizza place in Phoenix

and revolutionized how we do pizza. And it's a three-hour wait and it became a very important home for the sons. And I think you got to get in there. I think that's as important as anything you have to do in the Phoenix area. I'll be there then. I'm going there.

I'm going to be in Phoenix in a couple of days to watch our team. So I'll be there. I'll check it out for you. Any last things before we go? That most shocking thing you learned so far about being an NBA owner that you had no idea? We're like, wow, I just didn't know this was like this or any piece of that. Honestly, you know what I'll say back to your last question is the NBA owners have have been amazing. All the owners, like they actually get along really well and they help each other. Like the relationship I've built in the first four months have been phenomenal where they've all reached out, been friendly, helpful, cared. Like we compete, they all say, hey, we keep

on the floor, but off the court, we want to grow the game. You know, Adam Silver's done a great job leading. So it was surprising to me to see how well everyone got along. People have been so friendly to me, different owners that I never would have known before. And they've reached out to me and been friendly, giving me advice. And it's been nothing but great. And so I really love that camaraderie, which has been a huge win for me and a very positive thing. And so I'm very excited to be part of that MBA ownership group with all these great owners.

I've heard that from other people too. It does seem like a little exclusive club where only the people in it kind of understand. Even stuff like, I'm sure, you've games Friday and Sunday, right? The whole ticket thing of people asking, and hey, that becomes its own kind of piece of owning a team, right? Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, the other owners have been like, welcome me to their arena. I welcome them to my arena. You actually get along in a really great way and they give advice to me and I'm still new. I'm learning, but it's been great. So that's been the best part of being a new owner is how great the other owners are and how much time I've enjoyed spending with the ones I've got to and the more I will over time.

I want to ask you for your feelings about Jokic. He's just a good basketball player. Tough to go in a playoff series against that dude, right? He's a great basketball player. He's unbelievable. It's going to be a heck of a series. I think we're down 2-0, but I believe in our guys and we're coming back on Friday

and hopefully compete at the highest level. Thank you for the time. I wish you the best of luck. I really like those Phoenix fans and I was psyched that they ended up with an owner who seems to be thinking about things the right way, but good luck with everything. I'm excited to see how it turns out. Oh, thanks for having me. I appreciate you. All right. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention,

and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was. Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions. Just taking that first step makes a big difference.

It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning. Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit camh.ca. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast a little past noon Pacific time. Chris Mannix is here, our old friend. We're going to talk a little boxing later. I got to get some Tank Davison. Talk Celtics to start. A tumultuous, traumatic, horrifying 24-hour stretch of Boston sports. The Bruins blowing a game seven at home. Best record, regular season of all time,

allegedly, because they counted overtime wins. And they lose in overtime. And then the next day, Celtics, 10-point favorites against a Joel Embiid-less Philadelphia 76ers. And they just mail it in defensively. I don't know what was happening. Offensively, it looked great. But this game shone a big spotlight for me, Mannix,

on all the things that worry me about this team. Right? Not a lot of toughness. End of the game stuff, coaching adjustments, and you watch them lose to a Philly team that they're just way more talented than in a game one where it's just like grab their throat, step on their head, that's it. And they do the opposite. What was your read? What worries you about this team? You think about the Philly matchup. Even

if Embiid was healthy, I would have favored the Celtics because for the last three or four years, they've owned the Sixers. I mean, it was just like a month ago, maybe less, that Embiid needed 50 just to beat the Celtics by a bucket at home. I thought this was a great

matchup for the Celtics. Like everybody else, I thought Embiid out, depending on how long, this could be a really short series. But watching... And let's start with the perimeter defense because this is supposedly the strength of the Celtics, right? I stood in front of the locker of Marcus Smart

after Game 2 of the Atlanta series and was talking to Marcus about the backcourt defense. to Marcus about, you know, the backcourt defense. And he said, look, our three guards himself, white and Brogdon are the best defensive trio in the NBA. And then really from game two on that Atlanta series,

they've been getting torched. Like Trey young started going nuts. And now you have game one of the six or series where you've got a hardened Tyrese Maxey and Anthony Melton, of all people, going for like 88 combined points. It was wild, you know, watching these guys. And, you know, that to me is like a big fuck you to the Celtics defensive guys in the backcourt, you know, to Smart and to White and to Brogdon. Like these guys, look, Smart, defensive player of the year last year. White, probably going to make first or second all defensive team this year. Brogdon, big body, has been a sturdy defender in the past. And they had nothing.

They had nothing against Harden. Harden, a lot of times, like there was some pick and roll situations. They were doing some things. But he's an isolation player. And he was just facing up and beating them a lot of times in that game. So to me, this began with an absolute failure on on the defensive level in the back yard. We get into Joe Missoula's decision making. We can get we will. I also, Bill, I had to go look this up like I Jalen brown's attempting 10 shots was incredible right like

you jalen brown the games he's attempted 10 shots or fewer it's because they've been a blowout and he's only played 25 minutes or it's because he played you know 18 minutes in a game he got hurt in in games that jalen brown plays 35 40 minutes and he played 42 in game one. He's upwards of 20, 25 shots. In that Atlanta series, he averaged 20 shots per game. In this game one, he puts up 10, and it wasn't like he was missing. He was eight for 10. Like, he was playing great. Like, I want to know more about why Jalen Brown only took 10 shots in this game.

Went to the free throw line four times, so it wasn't like he was getting shots up and getting to the line. He just stopped shooting for some reason, or they stopped getting in the ball. And that was, I think, devastating for the Celtics offense. He kept turning the ball over, too. Four turnovers. Smart had six. They're too sloppy with the ball.

This has been all year with Brown like he'll just throw the ball to the other team every once in a while or dribble the ball off his foot and Smart you know if you remember Emei last year who we're going to talk about

he just wouldn't put up with the Smart sloppiness he was like you're just not going to play if you don't take care of the ball and if you're not just I want to see your assist turnover thing be 5-1, 4-1, whatever And if you're going to fuck around out there, I'm going to take you out. And Smart really respected it. And that was the best ball he's played of his entire career last year. Now it's just sloppy. The team looks sloppy. I'm glad you

brought up the guards because this also ties into the coaching adjustments, right? Especially last play, Tatum's at the line. They're down one. Tatum's an unbelievable free throw shooter. He's probably going to make both. Why aren't you going small at that point? If you're going to switch on everything, why not put White, Brogdon, and Smart out there

with Brown and Tatum, and now all five guys can guard Harden? It's just like basic coaching adjustments. Why is the final play of the game when you need a basket going to smart? You know, why, why is he involved? He, he is in your top eight, the worst offensive player out of the eight. So why is he even involved in the play? Much less you're running it for him. Um, I thought it was alarming. And the fact that Tatum had 39 and didn't even remotely seem like the best player on the floor kind of fits into the discussion too, right? Where Tatum, I voted for him first team all NBA. I thought he was the second best forward in the league. Me too. But there's been some mano a mano situations this year where he's just gotten beat. Harden last night was the best guy on the, he was

unbelievable. And I don't want to talk about him, but that was kind of one of those games where you're like, all right, Jason, your first team all NBA, like this guy's kicking our ass at home. Where are you? What are you going to do? And they, as usual, just fell apart down the stretch. You saw some of the crunch time stats, right? Yeah. They were bad. Well, just like for the playoffs in general, there was an account. I follow this account, Boston sports info. I mean, what a shocker. I follow this account, Boston sports info. I mean, what a shocker. I follow that account. Um, and he had all the crunch time stats, the last two seasons playoffs, three minutes or less remaining in the fourth quarter OT plus or

minus five points. You tell me if this makes sense. Marcus Smart has taken as many field goals in that situation in the playoffs last two years as Tatum and Brown. They each have 15. Smart is three for 15, shooting 25%. And Jalen is three for five, and Tatum is two for six. So he's taken more than both of them combined. How does that make sense?

It shouldn't happen. The last play, last offensive play of the game, I just want to know what the play was. Like, it couldn't possibly have been for a Marcus Smart high post catch and drive on James Harden. That could not possibly. Remarkably, like, if Smart had taken that shot

and kind of dipped his shoulder and put it up, like, I wouldn't have had too much of a problem with it because Harden's a minus defender, and Smart's actually pretty good at kind of getting the ball up on the rim and having some good things happen when those types of shots go up. But then he tries to thread the needle between two defenders and get the ball to Tatum, who had no expectation, I think, at that point of getting the ball. So I just want to know what that play was or what it was supposed to be at the end of the game. But that was one coaching faux pas. Not going small, you're right, was another.

Al Horford's had a great season, but against Paul Reed, he's not necessary in those situations. They have no post-up guy. Who's going to make us hurt a small lineup on that team? Nobody. In the final few minutes, and I know they trust Horford implicitly. He's a great team defender, all those

things, but in the final few minutes when you know they're going to be setting screens for Harden and begging you to switch, you've got to get your most versatile lineup out there. Without Joel Embiid on the floor, you don't need to have Al Horford out there for those types of possessions. I was equally concerned in the first half, though. Did the Celtics not think that the Sixers might try a zone

in that situation? Without their big man, I know the Sixers don't play zone with Embiid out there, why would you? But without Embiid on the floor, they're going to try a lot of junk defenses. And sure enough, in the first half, when the Celtics start to cook, the Sixers put a junk defense out there, and Boston just doesn't look like they know how to deal with it. That's when they started to slow down some offensively. So there were just some

lack of adjustments really hurt this team, from the rotation to end-of-game situations, and not having a, a counter to when the Sixers went with that junk zone. The inability to ad lib during these games has been the most appalling piece of the Missoula season. Like whether you think he's learning on the job, he got thrown into this, we should give him a learning curve, all that stuff.

He just can't adjust during the games. And yesterday is a great example. Like, all right, Harden's feeling it. All they have to do is take out Harden. Like PGA Tucker played 37 minutes. He didn't shoot a field goal. He was zero for zero. Right? So, all right. They're four and five offensively and we have to take out Harden. How do we do that? Whatever the strategy was, was the wrong strategy. Even in the last play when Harden, you knew he was going to get a screen with Horford on him. Maybe that's the time you send Tucker's guy flying over to double team him.

Can we have PJ Tucker hit a shot? He's zero for zero. He's been out there for two hours. Let's have him decide the game. Why is James Harden deciding the game? But as you know, my dad goes to these games and he sits close to the Celtics bench and he came on and talked about this a few weeks ago. He thinks Missoula looks overwhelmed during these games. He's watched a lot of coaches. We've seen some really shaky Celtics coaches. We were going in the seventies when Dave Cowens was a player coach. We were there for ML Carr,

who had no idea what he was doing as a coach. We were there for Patino when the whole team had quit on him, right? You go on down the line, even like Brad's last season, when it was clear, like the team had kind of just tuned him out. And you can see stuff from the sideline. And what my dad sees is Missoula just seems overwhelmed sitting there. And it looks that way on TV too. And then you look at the lack of adjustments and it's all the same thing.

And one thing to remember with Joe Missoula is if and when there are moments he feels overwhelmed, he has no one really to turn to on that bench. I mean, that bench, you know, lacked a former head coach presence already, but, you know, continued to be gutted during the season when Damon Stoudemire left. They never replaced Joe Mazzola. They tried to hire Frank Vogel. Frank wasn't interested in an assistant coaching gig at that time. When I saw Steven Silas in Boston sitting with Brad Stevens before one of the practices, before one of the games, I was thinking to myself, can he start now?

They're probably going to hire him next year. Can he start now and be a voice alongside Joe Mazzulla with some experience there? They've got some quality coaches on that staff, but nobody with the gravitas that's been there before like virtually every other young coach has on his staff remember for years brad stevens could turn to ron adams next to him he had some other

guys along the way that were were useful in that row joe doesn't have that at this point so i don't even blame him for being a little overwhelmed i I mean, it's an overwhelming situation. He's 33 years old and did a very good job during the year. But we have to remember, he's 33 years old with no coaching experience at this level. And now nobody on his staff he can really turn to. It's a huge mistake. I'm so glad you brought it up. Like even you mentioned Ron Adams. When Steve Kerr started that Warriors job, he'd never coached before. He had Ron Adams and Alvin Gentry. Both of them.

That's the guy they're missing is the guy who's been an assistant and maybe a former coach for 20 years who's kind of seen it all. The sounding board guy. It's kind of unbelievable that they didn't hire that person or at least try to grab him during the year or some older coach who got phased out. I don't know.

Was there anybody else beside Vogel that they went after? I think they talked to a few people, but Vogel was the guy I think Brad Stevens really wanted on that staff. And, you know, just Vogel, it was just not in the position at that point to want to take another job. But he didn't want to leave L.A. either. Yeah, look, I think maybe Frank Vogel probably thought a good way to stick it to the Lakers might be winning a championship with the Celtics. So, I mean, that maybe crossed his mind during that process. But I don't think he ever really strongly considered it. And look, having those guys is not an acknowledgement of what you lack.

I mean, God, remember Larry Bird in his early years with Indiana? Did Larry ever speak in the huddles? It was offense Rick Carlisle, defense Dick Harder, or vice versa. I forget which one it is at this point. But Larry would often just kind of sit there and rick would say his thing and dick would say his thing and larry would just kind of be the guy who brought brought it all kind of together at the very end it's not at a mission of weakness to bring in people with more institutional knowledge than you and i do think whether it's this series or another one in these playoffs that's something that could loom large for them.

It'd be like a Belichick had a defensive assistant as his offensive coordinator. Like sometimes don't swim, don't swim against the stream for what works a basketball. Let's take a quick break. And then I want to dive into this series more and talk Phoenix Denver. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah. Be safe. Tuck Phoenix Denver. coming. You won't hear them coming. See, safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really.

This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Hey you. Yeah, you. Scrolling TikTok and avoiding your chem homework? Cheg here. Hot take. You've seen enough Bama Rush, ASMR keyboard, and viral dance videos for one day. All right, Mayonix, fundamentally, Small steps today means big wins tomorrow. With Chegg. Subscribe today. You got this. All right, Mayonix. Fundamentally, we sure this Celtics team has it? No. It's a feeling I've had for months that they're missing something.

And it's a combination. If I had to do like a pie chart, what is the Celtics team missing? There's a toughness piece that I think it's missing. And I think they were definitely missing it last year too. And you saw Draymond exploit it. I don't know if that piece has necessarily gotten better. It's a really, it's a great group of guys, right?

Really respectful character guys. And I'm not saying they need to go out and get Dylan Brooks, but does this team need, you know, you watch PJ Tucker last night. He did like what? Seven illegal things during that game. Like he, oh, he accidentally hit Tatum in the balls. Did he? Was it accidental? I don't know. He's setting screens, sticking his leg out. He's, he's undercutting people on rebounds. Like he was, his physicality was there. You watch Lowry on Sunday against the Knicks, just took over that game psychologically,

all the stuff he was doing. Smart used to be the guy who did this stuff on the Celtics team. And it's not happening this year. You think like Smart versus Harden, there was that famous Houston Celtics game a few years ago when he goaded Harden into that charge and he really rose to the occasion against Harden. And that was one of the things I thought last night. Oh my God, he's going to do all the Marcus stuff against Harden. And it's like he's at a different phase of his career now. So I guess I'd start there. Is this team missing a toughness that you need to win four rounds? Let me say this first. There's no way P.J. Tucker did that accidentally. You'll never

get me to believe that. I've watched that a dozen times. That's no way P.J. Tucker did that accidentally. You'll never get me to believe that. I've watched that a dozen times. That's how I felt as well. No way. He swings the right arm, and maybe he didn't mean to connect exactly where he did, but he meant to do something there. I'd be surprised if the NBA wasn't taking a pretty long look at it right now in the league office. It's hard to say that they're missing that when it comes to needing it to win a championship, because they showed really good mental toughness in the conference playoffs last year. Like, regardless of Middleton being out, being down 3-2 against Milwaukee and having Tatum go nuts in game six and Grant Williams go nuts in game seven. That's a guy they're missing.

Whatever happened to him, he's someone they need. And then, look, going down to Miami and winning a game seven against Jimmy Butler and that team takes a certain level of mental toughness. So what I think about the reasons they lost to Golden State in the finals, like toughness isn't among the top three reasons to me. I think exhaustion was probably one of it.

Inexperience was another one. I don't think they needed to go out and get that guy. I think maybe Marcus Smart could do more of that with this team because he really is the only one on that roster kind of built for that. But I don't think they necessarily need to. I just think they have had it on cruise control really since opening night.

They picked up from Game 6 of the NBA Finals to Game 1 of the regular season in a good way. They kept all the momentum they built from January on of last season and were able to roll through a few bumps along the way. January, February,

some stuff came up, but they've just never really had to overcome real adversity up at this point. They never had to deal with on a coaching level, on a leadership level. They never had to do that with this group. But now they may have to. This game, too, is kind of the ballgame here. I don't think they're winning 4 out of 5 against Philadelphia. Now I think we're going to see if that same mental toughness

that existed when Imei Yudoka was the coach, when they were coming back against Milwaukee, beating Miami, now is the first time all season long, I think, that we're going to see if that mental toughness is actually there. Well, that's why I brought up the toughness thing.

Because they don't have Imei Adoka anymore. Yeah. And I felt like he was the toughest guy on that whole team last year. And I watched it. I saw it in person. Like, he really held those guys accountable. He would get really mad

when they drifted through certain stretches. I mean, they had the same end-of-the-game crunch line stuff issues last year that they're having this year. But I did think that he added a certain element that is missing now. But the crunch time stuff, look, the Sixers are an atrocious, atrocious transition defense team. If you're going to say, why are the Celtics going to win this series? Embiid or no Embiid, you would start with the Celtics are too fast for the Sixers. They're just going to run them into the ground and they have too

many guys to throw it hard in. And those would be the two reasons, right? Well, they were running for three periods yesterday, got to that fourth quarter and things slow down like they often do with the Celtics. Incredible for Philly. Like, oh, cool. You're going to slow things down. That's great. Our best player hasn't run back on defense for this entire game. You're going to slow things down for them? Awesome. And they've never been able to balance that. Ooh, it's nut crunch time, but we should still attack. Then it slows. And it's like, you see Tatum dribbling the ball over midcourt with 17 seconds left in the shot clock already. Now we're getting into a set. Now there's eight seconds. Oh, I wonder what's going to happen. It's going to be, we've been watching this for too long. And it just doesn't seem like they're going to change at this point. And I think the,

like, I look at a team like Denver, who we're going to talk about in a second. They're so purposeful. They can play both styles, right? They love to run, but if you slow it down, now they have this, the Jokic, who's the greatest cheat code in the league right now. And they're always going to get good shots. The Celtics sometimes get good shots, but you saw last night that stretched out the last three minutes. How many bad things happen? Right? Like the Brogdon pass, terrible shots, turnovers in the paint. This is kind of who they are in some of these games. It's depressing.

Yeah. And I keep going back to Jalen Brown. There was a sequence. I think it was like three and a half, four minutes left in the game when Jalen Brown had the ball in transition and he just kind of pulled it back. Yeah, he pulled it back, which I'm half kidding, but was Jalen Brown protesting something or on strike

during the second half of this game? He had a quote after the game where somebody asked him about this and he said I wanted to make sure my teammates were running with me. And I'm just reading that. I'm like, what does that even mean? I don't know. You're 8 for 10. You're the all NBA guy, guy, you know, probably.

Like, you've got to be more assertive in these situations. Force transition at times. I know a lot of times they're taking the ball out of the bucket because Harden was out of his mind. But, like, the fact that he took 10 shots, Bill, and made 8 of them, and that was it in 42 minutes. 42 minutes of this guy, he takes 10 shots, was, and it made eight of them. And that was it in 42 minutes. 42 minutes of this guy takes 10 shots was wild to me. That was the most wild statistic of that entire game was that Jalen Brown

wasn't more certain. He's got to be that guy. He and the people around him had been campaigning all year long to have him on the all NBA team. He's got to be an all NBA player in those moments. You can't just be Tatum. You can't be inbounding the ball to Smart. You've got to take advantage of these matchups because not only is Philly bad in transition, without Embiid in there, they're pretty bad defensively, period. Yeah, they can't protect the rim at all.

So Jalen Brown needs to be aggressive. It's ridiculous. We should mention, I mean, to be fair, Harden was incredible yesterday. And I thought he had a burst that I haven't seen from him really since February. He was doing that yo-yo thing at the top of the key. And he was able to finish around the basket and make plays in a way that we just haven't seen in a while.

With that said, they have so many guys to throw at him. And, you know, another really disappointing thing for me about yesterday's game was like, part of the game plan should be like, we just have more guys in this team. Right. So if Harden's going to dribble the ball up, let's hound them full court. Let's just put, let's put some miles on them. Let's have them burn some calories. Let's, let's, let's put some pressure on his legs. Let's make it at least a little hard for him. Let's make him break a sweat. And they basically let him do whatever he wanted offensively. And then defensively, you know, he wasn't running back anyway.

And they stopped running. So that helped them too. It's just, there was no gamesmanship with this. And that part really concerns me. And the other thing, which we haven't talked about yet, is there's like some small underlying stuff with this team that nothing major, right? But like you mentioned the Jalen 10 shots thing, sometimes it'll be a Tatum game and sometimes it'll be a Jalen game and one guy will back. They've never totally figured out the seesaw with that. Jalen's had just a weird energy this

whole season. There's been multiple moments with him where it's like, do you want to be here? Do you like it here? Is this a good situation for you? I have no idea what the effects of the KD trade rumors and the EMA situation was with him. You have the smart situation where in various points this year, White and Brogdon were just playing way better than him. And Missoula, I think, was really afraid to not have Smart be the crunch time guy. That manifested itself in the Hawks series. Now White's not playing well.

Have you noticed that part? Yeah. Whatever is going on with that White-Brogdon-Smart thing, it's now affecting White, and White is starting to look like 2022 finals White a little bit. I was going to say round one White of last year. Remember round one?

It was like, is he playable? He was too timid. He wasn't physical. After round one of last year, he kind of became that guy. And then it veered back the other way. So those three guys that Brock didndon finished his crunch time yesterday, but White was the third best player in the team this year. So you have that, and then the Rob Al Horford,

how much do we get out of Rob? How do we not? And then the Grant Williams thing is also weird. He just doesn't play anymore. Yeah, they've waved the white flag, it seems, on Grant Williams. What I was hearing when I was in Boston was when Grant wasn't playing in that Atlanta series was, well, he's going to play against Philly

when Embiid's out there. He can be another body to throw at him. He can space the floor when Embiid's out there. So maybe if Embiid comes back, we'll see more out of Grant Williams. The Jalen stuff that you mentioned, unquestionably, from what I was told, the Kevin Durant trade rumors from last summer

bothered Jalen a lot more than previous trade rumors did because look, it's understandable. He just led the team to the finals. He was probably the Celtics best player in the finals. And now we're back to this where you're going to trade me even for a player, the caliber of Kevin Durant from what I was told. And nobody coming out and saying, Hey, those rumors are bullshit. We're not trying Durant. And nobody coming out and saying, hey, those rumors are bullshit. We're not trying to jail him. And look, from what I was told,

this was something, these were fires, a fire, I should say, that Brad Stevens and Emi Udok at the time had to put out. This was something they had to address with him specifically. The stuff with Jason,

previous iterations of the Celtics coaching staff would joke with me a little bit about this. Like the your turn, my turn stuff was most prevalent in January when both these guys were trying to make all-star team, right? Like they both wanted to be on it. But usually after the all-star, you know, voting came out, they would be much more on the same page. I think there's truth to that because if you look at especially last season when they seem to be, at least in the Eastern Conference playoffs, in much better sync than they've been in years past.

But now, you're right. Game one, at least, was the Jason Tatum show in this one and Jalen's going to get his shots in transition every so often but not be proactive in chasing it. Again, he took 20 shots per game in that Hawks series. 20 shots, and he took half that in game one.

He doesn't have to be 20-25 every night, but he's got to be between 15 and 20 for this team, I think, to have the kind of balance it needs to beat a good team like Philadelphia. Yeah, the vibe is just off. I gotta say, I'm rarely shocked by basketball in the playoffs because the three-point variance, anybody can beat anybody. Celtics were 10-point favorites.

Yeah, you put them in a parlay or whatever, but you should always know, hey, Philly could just make 23s. You never know. The way Harden asserted himself in that game, I was not prepared for it. That was a best player on the floor game. And Tatum couldn't totally match it. And now if I'm Philly, like, you know, Embiid, they said he has this injury that's normally four to six weeks.

So you figure he'll probably be back second half of the series. And you got to wonder, like, it was kind of fun to watch this version of the Philly team. I wonder one of the best cases for the Celtics in this series is when Embiid does come back. Now it's going to be that same kind of seesaw where it's like, well, wait, the Harden show is kind of working.

You also have Harden basically playing for a new contract or new extension. He's got something to prove. So, uh, there's just a lot of soap opera subplots all the way around. Not to mention Doc Rivers outcoaching the Celtics coach in a playoff game. Everybody kept calling it Houston Harden last night. Like, that's four-year contract Harden.

Like, that's a guy, like, when he's barking at the crowd, like, I'm assuming he's looking at Daryl Morey there, you know, saying, like, you know, write the check, you know, pay me the money. That was the version of Harden I thought I saw last night. But I'm curious to see what Embiid has when he comes back. I was talking to people around him last week, and Embiid plays through a lot.

People kind of say, oh, he's always injured, but he plays through so much pain, hand injuries, knee injuries. He's constantly out there whenever he can. And when I was asking about kind about what he was going through, this is last week, but it wasn't so much about pain when running. It was pain when walking. He was dealing with a lot of real pain

during that week off that Philadelphia had. Even when he comes back, I'm just skeptical he's going to be the same kind of mobile guy that we're used to seeing. If he isn't, that's something the Celtics can attack, especially defensively. He's a monster defensively when healthy, but if he's not able to move around or chase Al Horford out there

or move around with Rob Williams, that's something the Celtics can exploit if he's less than 100%. Yeah, and there's a chance this series plays out like the Suns-Clipper series did, where, oh my God, I can't believe game one, and then the Suns-Clippers series did, where oh my god, I can't believe game one, and then the Suns win in five, but you still leave the series going, hmm.

I'm not positive about this team. The thing in the Celtics' favor, if you're talking injured and beat, the rest of this Philly team, what we're watching in Miami and New York, from a talent standpoint, it's no contest.

They have the most talent in the East. And I was just, I think the most disappointing thing is just take care of business game one and just set the tone and you're in the unbelievable, unbelievable driver's seat, right? On the flip side,

what's waiting for them and on the West side with if the Lakers can somehow keep AD and LeBron relatively healthy, the versatility of that roster. I'm still incredibly dubious AD and LeBron will play through my rounds. But then when I'm watching from Denver, they underrated team heading into the playoffs. I think people just got bored. They didn't look great the last month, but the home court matters so much for them. And Jokic is the best player in the league, at least offensively.

But I think he's the most day-to-day, impactful, reliable, whatever you want. And I don't know if the Celtics would beat them. I just don't trust it. I don't know if the Celtics would beat them. I just don't trust it. I don't trust the matchup and the consistency of the Celtics versus Denver right now unless there's some sort of dramatic, I don't know, breakthrough.

And maybe that game will cause it. But I like Denver the most right now is my long-winded point. Who do you like the most right now? I still like Boston the most right now. Really? Okay. Even after that egg. I mean, they laid a comparable egg in Game 5 against Atlanta.

I'm going to be of the belief they'll figure it out. And with Embiid's issues, I think they'll beat Philadelphia. And I favor them against whoever comes out of New York against Miami. I don't – look, I was impressed with Denver, but I was never big on Phoenix. I never believed this was the sun's year because you just don't make a trade of that magnitude and change things as considerably as they did and expect to get it together in a couple of months to be able to beat top tier playoff teams. And on top of that, they trade for Kevin Durant and he goes out five minutes later for three or four weeks. So I just never thought they'd have the kind of chemistry you need to have.

Like they need one more transaction cycle this summer to bring guys in that makes sense around them. They need a full training camp of all these guys to figure out how they want to play, how Durant and Booker play off each other, how Chris Paul fits into the mix, how, you know,

Josh Akogi fits into the mix right now. They're a team that like, unless Booker and Durant go absolutely crazy, which they did, you know, Josh Akogi fits into the mix. Right now, they're a team that, like, unless Booker and Durant go absolutely crazy, which they did, you know, in the Clippers series at times, unless they go nuts, who else are you relying on? Like, I'm watching Josh Akogi pass up on, like, you know, four-foot runners. You know, Chris Paul, before the injury, just doesn't look fully comfortable taking those catch-and three pointers. Like this,

this team is not where it probably can be at this time next year. Whereas you look at Denver and like, they're just like seamless. Like they're playing off each other. Jokic knows where, where Murray's going to be. Those reporter junior is going to be KCP is defending. Like they,

they just, they're a well-oiled machine. And the only way they're going to be beat is if they play another well-oiled machine. Maybe that happens before the NBA Finals. Maybe if Golden State beats the Lakers, that might be the type of team that gives them problems. But I think the Celtics are every bit as good as Denver, probably better. I don't think Denver's had its true test yet because I don't think the Suns, because of everything that's transpired

in the last couple of months, are where they're eventually going to be. Clippers have to be just kicking themselves. Yeah. If they'd had their whole team, maybe that was the team, but this is the NBA. Every year you can do whatever.

What if this guy, the Bucs? Sitting back. Well, the thing is the NBA. Every year you can do what if, what if this guy, the Bucs. Sitting back. Well, the thing with the Bucs, I guess, thinking about it and having some distance from it is,

you know, they were kind of in a similar spot that Phoenix was in. They were just playing a lot of dudes who weren't very good. Yeah.

You know, once you got past their first three and a half, dropped off a cliff, like Crowder couldn't even play for them. You know, moving to that Wes Matthews, Grayson Allen, it just always seemed like there were two guys out there that you couldn't trust at all. That's one of the reasons if you're going to make the case for the

Celtics team, their top eight is really good. How many guys of the Phoenix role player dudes would even play one minute for the Celtics team? Whereas Grant Williams would probably play big minutes for Phoenix. So the depth of the Celtics and then the Tatum-Brown thing, it's going to come down with the Celtics, what it always comes down to. Can Tatum levitate in those waters with the Giannis, Curry, Jokic, with those guys, right?

He was able to do it in Milwaukee in that game six. Couldn't really match the Curry stuff. Couldn't match Harden last night. Can he consistently levitate in those waters? The Warriors knew they have, you know, they go into that game seven, like, we have Curry. He's going to show up. We have this.

This guy will be awesome. Denver, any big game will be like, we know what Jokic is going to do 27, 14, and 8. That's the fucking floor for a big Jokic game. Tatum, we'll see. We'll see how they respond in game two. I think

the Boston fans are a little restless these days. I wonder why. There's a lot of shit going on. I got to tell a story about my dad my dad decided to go to Europe with my stepmother and wanted to do it earlier in the Celtics

Bruins playoff thing so he went on Saturday and middle of the night was the Bruins game middle of the night was Celtic game he woke up consecutive nights in Spain with the Bruins losing an OT and then the Celtics losing. He was like, oh, this is great. I'm missing those two Philly

games, but there's no Embiid. I'll just sell the tickets and just like double gut punches. Now I'm worried my dad might not make it home. I don't know. He's like 50-50 if they keep having these gut punches. There's not a lot for him to come back to if they lose game two. I mean, they're not recovering that. By the way, who signs Dylan Brooks? Have you had this conversation yet? Have not had it yet. Who is the top suitor?

Can we just say that Memphis is showing its own immaturity, I think. To tell Dylan Brooks that they're not going to bring him back, and I forget the phrasing, under any circumstances, that's a young front office. It is a young front office. What I'm hearing from the Memphis, from the counter of that, is that that was not something they said, that that was the agent trying to make them look bad.

He said she said game from that one. Does it matter? They made it clear to him, though, I'm sure, that he wasn't going to be back. Why do that? Why not wait until June or July? Why on May 1st or whenever that meeting took place? Why do that?

And if you're going to do that, you better have a damn good plan to get og adenobe or to get one of the wings in brooklyn because as frustrating as dylan brooks was in that series and i was at those laker games um david roddy ain't it uh zire williams ain't it how about Santi Aldama Santi Aldama ain't it this is a league where if you don't have plus wing defenders you're not winning anything you're winning nothing and whatever Dylan Brooks' warts are and he was

23% from three against the Lakers he was abysmal and he has to control his shot selection he's like a souped up version of Marcus Smart in a way whatever his warts are, a guy can defend. He wasn't on either of my all-defensive teams, but he was close to making the second one. And guys like that, they don't grow on trees.

So if you go into next year with just David Roddy and Zaire and some of these other plug-and-play guys that aren't the Ananobis or the Finney-Smiths or the Mikael Bridges of the world, you're in trouble. You're going to take a step back because you had a knee-jerk reaction

to Dylan Brooks' antics in one series. And look, I do believe, and I have been told this during the year, that they had had discussions with Dylan Brooks about a contract extension. So if you believed he was worth keeping around in January, February, or whenever those talks took place, you really want to react that quickly

to what happened in one series? The guy's 27 who shot 33% from three during the regular season. That's not terrible. Like that's not good, but that's not terrible. I just thought that whole story was wild. on. However, they did it from Dylan Brooks this early to me. And it's not a good bargaining position either bill. Like at least if you're trying to make a trade for the deadline, you know, teams might think are before the draft

teams might think, well, they, they might not need this guy. They can just resign Dylan Brooks. Well, they just said, they're not going to do it. Well, they just said they're not going to do it. It's out there that they're not going to do it. I just thought the whole way that played out was really strange. Yeah, and maybe there's more going on behind the scenes during the year that hasn't come out yet, but I agree with you. If you knew in February you weren't bringing him back,

then you got to trade him in February with one of your picks to try to get a better wing. He wasn't even, from what we were hearing, it wasn't like they were shopping that around. They were not. They were just trying to use some of the younger guys to get Ananobi and Bridges, but the asking prices were astronomical at that point. And by the way, they're going to be astronomical again. It's not like those price tags are going down this summer for either of those two guys. Well, I mentioned, Roussel and I talked about this Sunday, how I thought it was kind of telling

that they didn't do anything, which, which told me that they thought their problems were a little deeper and that a run was not that realistic this year anyway. And they just said,

fuck it, we'll wait till the summer. But my two predictions for Dylan Brooks, the Dallas, um, sign and trade for Tim Hardaway and then putting the Dylan Brooks, Kyrie back

or in Dallas talking themselves. He's been in some big games. He's a great defender. We already have Kyrie. Why not? Let's just get crazier. I could see that. I could also see a sign and trade with Brooklyn where him and Didwitty are the back court, which would be the backcourt in hell.

If you were in hell and just had to watch basketball, watch those two guys dribbling for 20 seconds, the Jackie up 20 footers. But I do think he'll end up being a sign and trade guy would be my guess. Cause who has cap space? It's all the young teams. They're not, no, it's not like Charlotte's going to be cool. Let's bring in Dylan Brooks for, for our culture. It's going to be a veteran team or a team with good players

that's a wing defender away and talks themselves into it. How about Miami? Miami would be another one. Let's heat culture them up. We'll put a heat culture costume on them. They could use, you know, every time you see kind of Duncan Robinson running around there defensively or Tyler Hero before him,

like, you know, they could use a defensive minded wing and I could see him finding his way down there and the heat being aggressive at trying to get a guy at a relatively bargain basement price. That to me, that feels like a front runner right now. I'm glad you brought up Memphis though because I thought the whole thing was handled

really strangely. And I think in general, their whole year, the whole jaw thing of jaw went away to get some help for what, six days and then came back and was like, I'm good now. Like what? I still don't know what happened. And we're not allowed to question anything about superstar athletes anymore. But did the guy have a problem? He didn't have a problem. He just went to a couple of meetings. Like, was he in rehab? Did they rush him back too soon? Why did they make it seem like everything was good a week later?

But the whole thing was just bonkers. And then the fact that they couldn't curb some of the on-court behavior and some of the, you know, like, why are you feuding with LeBron James? What's, you might as well feud with Beyonce at that point. It's just idiotic. What else did you see from in person with the Lakers? How'd you feel about how, because I went to game four, how'd you feel about how LeBron was moving around

and what kind of state he's in at this point in his career? I thought he looked old at times during the series. And that probably worries me the most going into this Warriors series because I assume that LeBron will open up on draymond green and you look at that and you say all right well draymond's a non-shooter but draymond's involved in everything he's got his hand in everything they do offensively so lebron is going to have to be active and on his toes a lot defensively in this series and yeah the whole series all six seven games whatever you know you never put anything past the guy i mean after looking like a zombie in game five against memphis he comes back nine

for 13 reverse dunk in the third quarter all this energy has in game six but you know he's gonna go from defending a team that was at times inept in the half court. Well, guys, you could just leave alone. Just leave alone. Stand five feet away from. And now one that operates with Swiss precision, Swiss watch precision. And the guy that is maybe the least effective offensively is the guy that is the hub of everything, who is making plays for everything else.

That worries me a lot in this series because I don't think, and I was talking to a couple of coaches about this today, I don't think they can win unless their two best guys, LeBron and AD, are not just the two best guys on either team, but they have to be a lot better than Curry and Thompson and Draymond. I love what they've done. I said this to Rob Belenka during the series. Like, I mean, they've they've been masterful

at reshaping the roster after the Westbrook fiasco, like getting Rui Hashimura worked. All the moves they made worked, but they are still very much a top heavy team. So if LeBron, when we get to game two or three,

when every game is every other day and his legs just aren't there they're going to get beat because i think golden state from a talent perspective is significantly better you know coming into the series what the lakers have going for it is that they have lebron and ad who are great and they draw a lot of fouls like this yeah laker team gets fouled a lot so if they can find a way led by lebron ad to muck this game up and get to the free throw line and slow it down, they'll give themselves a chance to win.

I'm glad you brought up the AD piece of this because Chris Paul went down already. The over-under for him limping off in the playoffs was probably like, I don't know, game nine. You would have said, would you go over-under for him limping off in the playoffs was probably like, I don't know, game nine. You would have said like, would you go over-under game nine? I'm like, man,

nine straight games. AD is working on six. I would have said the over-under for him probably would have been eight or nine too. So that's another thing to watch out for. I can't wait. I mean, by the time people listen to this, game one over have already happened, but it's just so fun that these two guys are playing again. Like the odds of this. Do you give AD credit? Because he comes back in late

January and he only misses three games the rest of the season. They're all back-to-back situations. One end or front of the back end. And he's taken some falls, like the ankle sprain against minnesota that looked tough at the time he played through that he fell on his hip a couple of times in the last round he played through that are you congratulating an nba player for falling down a couple times and getting up i'm no it's fair but i'm congratulating ad on being able to play

through stuff that i don't think he was playing through before. That's kind of... Oh, that's good. All right. I'll accept that one. I'm going to give him a brief, you know, a little award there for that. Can I push back on you calling the Palenka restructuring masterful? Because I just want to point out,

and I agree, their trades have worked out nicely. They did offer both first round picks, unprotected, and Russell Westbrook for Kyrie Irving, and the Nets said no. That was a trade the Lakers wanted to do and they offered. And by the way,

the Nets should have said yes. And by the way, would have been better with Westbrook in the playoffs than Spencer Dinwiddie in a 19th wing. So I don't know. I'd rather have those Laker picks than one Dallas pick. Right? How many, okay, but how many trades, Bill, did Danny Ainge try to make that didn't go

through that would have been, would have reshaped the Celtics today? Well, that's, I mean, oh my God, the Justice Winslow. How many first round picks was Justice Winslow? It was like four? That's wild. Jesus. Yeah, you're right. Danny dodged the bullets.

All right, give me 100 seconds on Tank Davis before we go. You think he's the future of boxing right now? Not the greatest guy. I'm just going to point that out. But we've had in the past, future of boxing, also not the greatest guys. He is way, way up there for me for a,

Jesus, how do you beat this guy? Because you have a, like basically, a ferocious power counter puncher. So what's the move? Garcia's like, I'm going to bring it to him. I'm going to attack him. And he's swinging. He's swinging with a band in the first round and a half. And then Tank's like, cool. Boom. And that's it. The fight lasted four more rounds, but it was done. You knew it he was not, you knew it was over. How do you fight this guy?

Who does it? Who does it successfully? You have to outbox him at a high volume because if there's any weakness in Tank Davis's game is that he's very economical with his punches. You go back to the second round against Garcia before he knocked him down. Like Tank is a great thinker in the ring, one of the great thinkers in all of boxing. Terrence Crawford is up there.

Tyson Fury is up there. Tank went under not one, not two, but three of Ryan Garcia's hooks before he countered with that perfect left that put him down. So he's always kind of looking for that perfect shot. And if you are an accurate volume puncher, and there are not many of them in boxing, at least not in his weight class, you give yourself a chance against Tank. But Tank has been doing this for five years

now. The criticism of him is that he's been doing it against B and C level fighters. There's rarely been a Tank Davis fight where he hasn't been at least a 4-1 or 5-1 favorite. You don't give guys credit for doing it in fights they're supposed to win in a lopsided way. He was a favorite against Ryan Garcia, but it was only about 2-1 right around that time, 3-1 on some books. But Ryan Garcia was supposed to be a stiff test and tank dominated every moment of that fight, every minute of that fight. And that knockout punch wasn't some random punch. He knew Ryan Garcia was a little soft in the midsection and he hit him right on the spot where supposedly according to the Showtime all access, that's exactly where Ryan got hurt in his training camp just weeks earlier. So Tank is, he's such a smart guy in the ring.

What I hope for with Tank Davis is that it's not one of these, all right, well, we fought the guy you critics wanted us to fight. Now we're going to go back to fighting stumble bumps. There's a huge opportunity this year for Tank Davis to go to the next level. Devin Haney on May 20th, he fights Vasily Lomachenko. Massive fight. Haney's the favorite in that fight. If Haney comes out of that fight, he is a free agent as far as boxing promotion goes. His top-ranked deal is over. His ESPN deal is over. He can walk to Gervonta's side of the street and fight him for the undisputed championship at 135. Devin will do

it. He'll stay at 135 for one more fight. If Tank Davis fights and beats Devin Haney, not only in my mind would he be the biggest star in American boxing. Canelo probably still globally just does huge numbers everywhere. But not only would he be the biggest star in American boxing, he would have a pretty strong case to be top three, maybe even number one on all the pound-for-pound list. So I just hope for Tank Davis, it's not a one-off here. We're not like, all right, we fought Ryan now. How about Roley Romero 2 or Isak Cruz 2?

Fights that nobody really cares about. I hope he builds on this and keeps taking on those tough tests. One of my rules with great boxers is when they're smiling during the ring out of the pure joy that they know they're going to beat the guy and it's early. And they're doing it partly because they're trying to psych the other guy out, but also they're just enjoying themselves. It's usually not a guy you want to fight. It's like, why is that guy? It's like the movie Smile. Why is that guy smiling?

We're in a boxing match where I'm trying to beat the hell out of him. And he's fucking just kind of enjoying it and laughing. That's a nightmare. Watch the, if you watch back tanks fight against Ryan, the in between rounds in the corner, like tanks barely listening to his corner. He's kind of looking for his mom in the crowd.

He's looking for different people in the crowd. All year is trainer. Calvin Ford says like, this guy's not on your level. Like, what are we doing here? Like, what are we doing? Just keep pumping him up. And Tank just goes out there and executes. He's elite, man. I was a skeptic of Tank Davis before that fight because I didn't like the competition he was facing. But seeing it against Ryan Garcia, seeing him walk through some of Ryan's shots, I am all in on Tank Davis and just want to keep seeing him against the best. What's the name of your

boxing podcast? Boxing with Chris Mannix. Well you can listen if you want to hear Mannix talk more boxing. Read him at Sports Illustrated as well. Mannix good to see you as always. Anytime Bill. Alright that's it for the podcast. Thanks to KOC

and Chris Mannix and Matt Ishbia. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerruti, as always. Don't forget about the new rewatchables we put up on Monday night, Iron Man. Happy birthday, Zoe Simmons. I will see you on this podcast on Thursday. I don't have