The Bill Simmons Podcast - Al Pacino and Barry Levinson on 'Dog Day Afternoon,' HBO's 'Paterno,' and 'The Godfather' (Ep. 344)

Episode Date: March 26, 2018

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Al Pacino and Barry Levinson to discuss how the two get along so well (14:45), their new film ‘Paterno’ (19:00), and what they expect the reaction to the film will be (27:20). Then, Bill debunks a ‘Heat’ conspiracy theory (41:20) and Al talks about how Francis Ford Coppola saved his job (48:30), when John Cazale realized Meryl Streep was the greatest actor alive (56:00) and the impact Marlon Brando had on him (59:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is kind of our time right now. Check it out, theringer.com. Right now, Al Pacino and Barry Levinson, two of the greats. Barry Levinson, one of the most accomplished directors the last 40 years. Al Pacino, one of the great actors of all time. They came in, we taped it last week. They were here for about an hour and 10 minutes and it was a true highlight. Here it is, but first, Pearl Jim. All right, here with Al Pacino and Barry Levinson. They did the Paterno movie for HBO. I was telling Barry we did a podcast in 2009 back when people barely knew what a podcast was

because you were one of the first 30 for 30s. I know, I know. It's so bizarre. I remember when we got him, it was really hard to get the series going and we needed like a couple named directors and then we went to pitch you on something else

and you're like, I've always been fascinated by the Ravens marching band. And we're like, alright. I'm sorry, the Colts marching band. But you're like, all right. No, no, he's a Baltimore guy. And they left. But ends up doing it.

And once we got you, the seas parted. And we were able to get, and then all of a sudden, we were able to get some people. Oh, no kidding. You were like the pivotal guy that we got. Wow. You didn't even know. I didn't know.

Yeah. Because as soon as we got him. I knew that, Barry. Now I'm excited. I didn't want to tell you. Ready? Surprise, everyone. Come on out. As soon as we got him, now I'm excited. I didn't want to tell you. Ready? Surprise, everyone. Come on out.

As soon as we got him, we could go into the other meetings and go, we got Barry Levinson. He's in. And then they'd be like, really? You got Barry? And then all of a sudden, you get one more, and then you start listing off funnier. Yeah, the term that no one ever heard, podcast.

Yeah. We launched that. I had had my own podcast, but then we launched our own 30-for-30 podcast series to try to be like a director's commentary. It was a little ahead of its time. Yeah. I had had my own podcast, but then we launched our own 30 podcast series to try to be like a director's commentary. It was a little ahead of its time. Now everybody has a podcast. You must have been on a podcast, Al.

No? I've been everywhere, I think. You must have done. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure I have. I turn up from time to time and people say, I say, how did I get there?

How did that happen? And then, of course, there's the 70s. Which I have no recollection. I have no recollection. Were you a reckless with promoting movies and stuff in the 70s? Oh, yes, of course. a recluse with promoting movies and stuff in the 70s yeah in a lot of ways that uh that was the that was sort of the style at that time less is more that was the thing yeah i mean even going at that point even going to the oscars was something that you didn't do you know it wasn't

cool or something yeah we all followed what marlon did. Brando led us all astray. I don't remember actors, actresses, or directors talking about movies at all back in the 60s or 70s. I don't remember that. Just didn't happen. There was definitely more of a mystery back then with the stars.

I think also back then, it didn't matter that much if you went wherever you went. I mean, people either went to the movies or didn't. Today there's so many outlets that it does work. It does get people, it makes people become aware of the fact that there's a film out there. But in the old days it didn't sort of matter. Or at least that's what we felt. That's what film out there. But in the old days, it didn't sort of matter. Or at least that's what we felt. That's what I would say. Well, I mean, because you didn't have many outlets

was part of it because, you know, you didn't have any of the cable channels. There were no cable channels. And there wasn't really a national radio or the way they connected. It would be city by city by city. But, you know, so it's a radically different... I remember finally I got to do a television show.

I had been an actor known and everything for 10 years. Yeah. Maybe more. And I finally got my first, I did my first television interview on Good Morning America. And I was, you know, so I come out and I sit down and everything is new and I'm just sitting there, you know, all shy and everything and just sitting quietly.

And this guy comes out and he looks at me and he says, how could you make such a violent, stupid film? Oh, no. That was the opening. And I said, you know, where do you go from there? Where do you go from there? And I just said, well, you know, something. I don't know what I said, but he was a very nice guy.

But he didn't like the film. I think he said stupid. He might not have said stupid. He just said violent. You remember it now. I thought that was a stupid thing to say. stupid he might not have said stupid he just said violent you remember it now i thought i thought that was a stupid thing to say you know but i i remember the film yeah just happened to be scarface so you know here we are right scarface is a good example of a movie that means one thing

when it comes out and then takes on this whole other life and then takes on another life after that now it's been 35 years and it like, it's this iconic action movie. But at the time, it was really polarizing. I'm always fascinated by how movies evolve after they've come out, how they're remembered and dissected. Yes, well, I mean, look, it goes both ways. Some movies that were celebrated did fade away, and there were those that were totally ignored or you know reviled in a way that

ultimately come up well not to talk about it uh too much but i i didn't see it as violence we didn't see it as violent scarface yes don't forget all of a stone yeah that wrote it yeah and it was a it was this whole assault on this this this the world of greed, the world of avarice. And everything was operatic in its delivery. And this is what Brian De Palma intended. Yeah. So we didn't think in terms of, because, you know, covert commercials are more violent than that film you i mean you have to say the violence was i guess was a subtextual or something well it ran through it but it was operatic it was as opposed to something that would have been you know uh

that's more sort of more humanistic so that's something that would occur you would you know that that was violent would be perceived. This was like over the top. Machine guns blowing up the buildings and the thing. I mean, it was, you know, out of control. There was that chainsaw shower scene. Well, we don't want to talk about that. Like, I look at a movie like Rain Man and Hoffman won the Oscar, right?

But now when I watch it all these years later, it feels like Cruise had the harder part. Well, he did. But I don't think people realize that in the moment. Dustin said it at the time. He said, you know, Tom's got it because Tom has to push it all along. Otherwise, I'll just keep looking up at the lights on the ceiling or whatever.

I mean, so Cruise had to push it all the time. Come on, we're doing this and we have to find ways so it doesn't seem repetitious. He was great too in that film. Yeah, Cruise was terrific. But I remember Dustin acknowledging it even while we were shooting.

So what happens is Dustin ends up with the flashier role, the character we haven't seen, but Tom's work was really very, very strong. Well, because he's playing an asshole, but I have to like him by the end of the movie. which is pretty much the hardest yeah he's a very good actor yeah what out what movie did you make over over the i don't know at least 20 years old that you feel like is underrated compared to how it was perceived at the time do you have one i'd have

to think about that in a few minutes it'll come to me. Okay. I can do 50 years. It's hard to do with 20. You know, you have to divide. I mean, we did one that was really not seen because the distribution company basically disappeared, went out of business when we did The Humbling. And Al

playing this aging actor at the end of his career based on a Philip Roth book, I think is a spectacular performance and a real look into the mind and soul of an aging actor trying to deal with the reality that he's surrounded by.

I thought it was... And the very few times we ever showed it in terms of a couple festivals, it had a terrific response, but it was never seen in America. When you say it disappeared what does that mean it was never had a distribution i mean we played like a couple theaters in the country but now we have 40 000 streaming services like it feels like we could revive it well i mean at some point maybe it'll get picked up but up until now it's it's really not been on those services or you know it's basically you can do

something and we look we did it for a million nine one million nine and shot half of it in my house i mean so it was about as kind of a homemade movie as you're going to do and we did it because it seemed fascinating and we had a great time doing it yeah i thought you know al's work was spectacular but it's it's a completely overlooked piece at this point in time. Did you guys hit a point in your careers where you're like, I've done just about everything that I thought I wanted to do

X amount of years ago. What now? I don't remember one point in my career. I quit. Yeah, you quit in the 80s yeah for about 4 years people were worried about you they didn't know what happened people in the park would say what happened to you man I'd say oh really

you know I didn't know I was gone from anyway oh man do a movie so I said alright so I got a couple I got encouragement but what happened to me was at that point, you kind of reassess things in a way. I had multiple failures,

and I was feeling somewhat at odds with... This has happened to me several times in my life. When I was younger and an unknown actor, I had a similar thing yeah yeah happened to me and I just needed to get revive something in myself whatever it was so I took to making my own stuff and spending my own money on it which is not a wise thing to do but there I was and shortly I became broke and had to go back to films but i started making my own stuff editing and discovering another another perspective on film so so it was fun but sooner or later i had

to i had to go back to work and i i think i revived with uh sea of love sea of love yeah that's a good one i saw that in the theater. I like that movie. Yeah. Harold Becker did a really good job, and Marty Bregman produced it. So I was back, and as it is, you know, you go through all these stages, but I don't sort of want to do anything anymore that I'm not connected to in some way so I can feel the energy to do it. You get the energy from the excitement.

That's hard to come by. But you're one of the few actors that keeps going back to stage. I go back to the theater, yeah. Not necessarily Broadway, but even other things where you've done work you wanted to do. That's right. I recently did something about Tennessee Williams at the end of his life, which is interesting. Yeah, I do. I have the theater because I started in the theater.

Yeah. So it's sort of like a place I'm most comfortable. Although I've learned a lot about films. I work with Barry all the time. Yeah. I'm always constantly calling him up and saying, what are you doing next, Barry? Why do you guys get along so well? For me, I think, look, I mean, you do films,

but you want to be able to, there's certain themes that are interesting to you, you know, and in terms of an actor, there's a certain kind of courage to what Al will do, that he'll try something as opposed to, I don't know if I should do that. You know what I mean? He'll just try. We'll keep playing around with things.

Yeah. And some things will evolve out of that. Maybe that wasn't right, but maybe there's another little clue to something that would be better. So there's an interaction, and it's kind of like, you know, there isn't an absolute to anything you do

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So something like Paterno, obviously a tough topic just coming out of the gate. And now you're playing this guy that was pretty complicated. Nobody 100% knew what happened, what he knew, what he didn't know. We also don't know how out of it he was. That was always the part that I never got a full answer on.

Like just how with it was he by the end there? How, how locked in was he just with anything coaching the team? What was going on? No, he's 84 years old at that point when all this happened yeah and then physically which i thought he did a really nice job in the movie like just just you seemed old you seem like beaten down like how much how much time you put in well how much time do you put in physically with a performance like that well your body has to look like you just what you do is usually at my age you just give in to what what

you're feeling yeah you get to be 84 somehow you you know so much of it is dictated by by the role i think and barry would help me you know would tell me occasionally you know he's 80 whatever he's 80 in his 80s and i would this this last movie I did with Martin Scorsese with this the Irishman with Bob De Niro and Joe Pesci Bobby Conner Valley we use compute this computers on the camera on the sides and and they they the various ages so physically you're changed to say say, if I'm playing Hoff, I was playing Jimmy Hoff at the age of 39. They're doing that on the computer. Ooh.

Yeah. I mean, we went to all these tests and things to just, and then I'm playing 48, even in my 50s. And they'd always say to me, someone would come up to me and say, you're 39. And so it's called some sort of memory of 39. And your body tries to acclimate to that and, you know, think that way in some ways. And they remind you of it.

So when you're playing a character for Paterno, it's no longer a question. The script is well written and Barry is there, then you're reminded of the age. And so you conform to that state. Do you worry at all that more information is going to come out after this movie? Or do we think we have all the information we're ever going to have from this? I mean, there may be some things you never can say never. I think the story we're telling wouldn't be necessarily affected by additional information. Yeah.

You know, we do it in a two-week time frame, you know, the whole film. Yeah. The highest and the lowest parts in his life. He wins the 409th game to make him the winningest coach in college football you know literally seven days later or something like that he's fired caught up in this whole scandal of of of what what happened there and then ultimately goes in for an mri and diagnosed with cancer which will be terminal this is all happens in a two week period.

When I saw the movie, I thought you compressed it, but you didn't. No, we just that was really those 14 days. And that and that 14 days, that's that's what it was. So we're concerned with that time frame. Yeah. So that's where we focus, which has a fair amount of energy and strength to it, because that was the explosion that information came forward from the grand jury. And it just exploded in, of all places, Happy Valley, Penn State. What did you want the viewer to feel about Paterno by the end of the

movie? I don't think you ever want to say, this is what I want you to feel. All you want to do is create this time frame, these dynamics, the interaction. How did they act? How did they react? As opposed to say, here's the agenda. Yeah. You know, we're going to do this about it. Feel this way. You're presenting it, and then you can make, you know, as it goes along, there's all these contradictions.

The characters contradicting themselves periodically. We start seeing these layers of all of this that's been built up and perpetrated in some ways. And we'll just see it unfold in that time frame. How much research did you do, Al? Oh, well, as much as you can today without having the real person there yeah which of course is an extreme luxury it's a real luxury because i've done it with real people who i've been portraying and it does it does make a difference yeah because all you're really in the end what what you're doing is and it's basically is kind of revisionist

you know you're trying to be true mainly you're trying to be true to the text and the story that that's telling yeah

and as close to what you'd think Paterno was feeling but who knows you know I never met him I don't know so it was

my thinking about it. For instance, there's so much to see on people today. I mean, you can't imagine the footage there is on Paterno. Oh, yeah. I had the same thing when I played Jack Kevorkian. It's all over the place. I mean, you just put it on the internet everywhere.

And so you try to consume that there's just so much you can get from it because it's interviews and usually people are somewhat on on guard although i thought that jack of all can wasn't on guard he was just you know much but but but joe paterno was somewhat in a formal situation usually, you know. And even a couple of things that are in the movie we saw on tape. Right. And we literally just imitated the scene we saw on tape. Yeah.

But also, too, the fact that you take what's there, circumstance, situation, and you try to consume it in some way. His state, his finding out about the situation and what he's going through, which is the kind of denial of it, the depression from it, the various emotions. He goes to cope with what he feels first is an unjust accusation and then starts thinking, is it, you know, and has this sort of... It's like a re-evaluation of some of the things that were said in the past. And he's doing those old guy cliches that people do when they don't want to admit they're culpable yeah but would like that breakfast

what was the breakfast line did he keep saying how do i not i can't remember what i had for yeah i can't remember i had for breakfast yeah the lawyer's like you can't say that that's part of the denial that's right and and also it's is this the sense of guilt starts to move in yeah and that is upsetting yeah and and then questioning is really especially for a guy like joe paternal i would think knowing football and knowing what i played other coaches before i mean i i i've been playing football coaches so i i to understand that what it takes to be a leader of a team and to make those plays and to think about that, what's required of you just to go out there on those Saturdays and play football is so consuming. have this pressure on yourself and this conflict, these concerns, and these actual, actually, he just, he learns things about himself.

And one of the things I think is interesting, it's not like he's being questioned by media people, which he doesn't do. No. But the idea that he's being questioned by his own family. Yeah, that's right. That, I think, is interesting. And even his wife a little bit. do no but the idea that he's being questioned by his own family that's right that that i think is interesting because his wife a little bit you're getting the sons going well then dad what happened when you saw so-and-so or the daughter saying did you talk to the boy

yeah and he's saying well i didn't do it you what do you mean no who talked to the boy when she's trying so what happens is i think it makes it more intimate and more personal rather than you're talking to some reporter. You know, I mean, this is the his own daughter wants to make sense out of it. This is her father that she reveres, but she's asking questions. And so were the boys. And so is the wife, which makes it a more, I think, an intimate in those sections that has, I think, that that vibrate. And in a way that I think is more compelling than just talk to a reporter about something. One thing that struck me watching it is this was, was this 2011 or 2012?

It was like five, six years ago. Yeah, 12 if I think. And I think as the decade has gone along, some of the red flags and the signs we're just better at as a society of being like, wait, that doesn't look right. I think that was more benefit of the doubt back then. And even if you see something like the gymnast scandal that happened this year, which had a lot of the same beats, right? What's going on? Why is this?

Why is it going this way? These people have spoken up. Don't listen to them. But here's the add to it. We don't know much about that guy in terms of his principles. But Joe Paterno was known as not only this great football coach, but this man who believed in education. Yeah. He believed in the humanities and the integrity of it all. And that was one that was the signature of this man, this great humanitarian slash coach. Yeah.

And so that fall from grace is quite the fall. Not to minimize what happened with the gymnast thing, but he didn't have that persona. There was that one person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he even says at the end, there's a line where he says something like, this is everything i worked for it's just gone yeah that's it yeah um you said you played a football coach i did in a film called oh i'm aware oh i'm aware i'm aware um i would say you probably that i mean they're playing that

at basketball games that speech all that stuff that movie took a life of its own yeah um hey this could this seeing you coaching a football team got me excited for any given sunday too i that speech all that stuff that movie took a life of its own yeah this seeing you coaching a football team got me excited for any given Sunday too I think we can make it work sequel

now a sequel that's a good thought Barry Jamie Foxx is coaching now and you're like the GM I love it

oh you see that easy it is to write these things that's it good sketch we did a podcast about that movie a few months ago because one of the things that's really interesting about it comes out in 1999, and a big theme of it is concussions, painkillers,

all these things that are wrong with football. And then not until 10 years later did the NFL even admit that concussions were even maybe a link or a bad thing. Meanwhile, it's a major plot line in any given subject. No, at that time, no one thought about it. It was like, oh, I don't know. It's funny how we don't – some things are there. Well, they kept saying, this is Oliver Stone again.

Yeah, Oliver Stone being crazy. So you don't pay attention until all of a sudden you pay attention. It's odd. The things are there, and we you don't pay attention until all of a sudden you pay attention. Right. It's odd. The things are there and we just don't respond. Yeah. What do you think is going to be the reaction from the Penn State community to this movie? I don't know.

I mean, I think we try to present a pretty good look into it all. But look, I mean, there are people that have certain opinions and you realize sometimes you're never going to change someone's opinion. Sometimes you can say whatever you want and they'll go, yeah, but, you know. So there's an emotional connection. I mean, to think about there was a riot, you know, turning over trucks and things and, you know, setting things on fire when the students were angry that J Joe Pa was fired. And that was an emotional reaction. It wasn't an intellectual reaction.

It wasn't thought through. He was like a family member. He was the family member. He was the father. He'd been there forever. That's all anyone knew. He graduated 85% of his players. And he spoke. So he was the father, the king of Happy Valley.

And so all of a sudden he's dethroned and so there was an emotional reaction so how do they respond to it if their emotions are going to play as opposed to some of the other ways to look at it and in in the cool light of the day i don't know when we were doing 30 for 30 we would always talk about is this a documentary is this better as a sports movie is it better as a short is this anything like we would always talk about is this a documentary is this better as a sports movie is it better as a short is this anything like we're always trying to what's the best context for this this easily also could have been a documentary and it's one of those meaty content topics that it's like it could go this way in the right hands or it could go this way what did this in you when

you were developing it have to have as a movie that would separate it from documentary well i mean a documentary is trying to tell the sequence of events and the character and the people that were in it this is more of an a human drama that's inside of it right and i think that's the distinction because i don't know thinking about stuff and talking to that that wouldn't be in a documentary because you wouldn't have any of that that that's that's where it separates from that you can have events yes he was this happened here was the arrest the whatever but here it's it's inside of that between he and his family between all of the thoughts he's having on of his own and

how he's dealing with it and how he's processing it. That's where a film lives and breathes. That was my takeaway. Because when I heard they were making it in a movie, I was like, they easily could have just made that documentary. It would be interesting to see why this is worth making it to a movie. And what stood out was Al's performance as Paterno. Because by the end of it, I really felt like you were Paterno. You must have had a little bit of makeup, right?

What did you have? Did you have nose glasses? What did you have? Did you have a nose glasses? What did they put? I had a nose, but the great John Caglione, who's worked with me for years, he did me in a film called Dick Tracy, if you ever saw it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he did the makeup with me there. And he just came up with this nose.

And I was reluctant at first you know Barry remember? I didn't know what that was and did a lot of changes and adapted to the nose. You were worried it was like a Halloween mask or something? Yeah of course you always worry about that and then I said you know what I thought we should do? Let's have a scene

where Joe Paterno gets really angry and rips his nose off I just wanted to get that fucking nose where Joe Paterno gets really angry and rips his nose off. I just wanted to get that fucking nose off my face. You know, it just was. But at the same time, that's a predominant thing about Paterno, this guy with his nose, you know, and these glasses.

I mean, it has to be real because you have to wear it. It's like an accent, too, in a way. When you develop an accent for a character, you try to absorb the accent, make it a part of you. Because once it owns you, you're in trouble. It's got to become a part of you. So you do that with a fancy nose, too. You have to sort of acquire it, and it gets you there, especially if you have a good look. Look at what the great Gary Oldman just did. Yeah, that was amazing.

He had those people who put that together and made this natural thing. Yeah, and you didn't feel if it was a performance behind a mask. Yeah. You felt that was the man. Well, what Al mentioned earlier about computers and being able to change the look of people,

I think this is going to be the future of movies to some degree. We're going to be able to go back to any old movie and pull actors out of it and put them in other movies. I know. That's the thing. We were saying while it was going on, I had no idea. You know, I

never saw myself in the character of Hoff. I know, I never saw myself in the character of Hoffa. I never actually saw footage of myself as a 39-year-old Hoffa. So I keep wondering, is it going to work? You know, you keep saying, this just seems like I'm not doing anything. But there were things we did. We had to wear certain things. They taped things on us.

So they grab onto it. And we went to a studio here. And these guys are geniuses that do this stuff they put us in these rooms with all this lights and told us to just animate and speak as they recorded it on a computer for hours

and then they put it together because you know it's been tried know, it's been tried before and it's been done before well, but not, you know, I think this may be a step, another step. Because what's it going to do to all of us? Well, I remember they made the Godfather video game and you wouldn't let them use your likeness, right?

Isn't that something? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know why i i was uh i was uh it wasn't a great video game i think you made was it was that the thing yeah no i think you made the right i just felt so connected to that character at that time you know if it were to be they asked me again now that i have you know my son is he makes video games yeah actually yeah he, yeah, he makes them. You can impress him. Like, I'm going to be in a video game.

What? No, no, he plays them and he's a programmer. Yeah. We're going to take one more break to talk about Amazon Music. It's the simplest way to listen to the music you love. Discover tens of millions of songs, including the hottest new releases, thousands of curated playlists and stations

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Renews automatically, cancels anytime. Let's go back to Al Pacino and Barry Levinson. Well, I wonder like 20 years from now, somebody like, maybe 50 years from now, somebody will just be able to take all the footage from the Godfather movies and turn it into a miniseries and have all these different plots. We've talked about that.

I don't know whether I like that or not. It's going to be part of something or other. You know, because it's you know, it'd be like the way the studio system is. It would be like you say, well, this is about this this man and this woman or whatever. And then they're trying to make sense out of it. But then if you say it's it's Thelma and Louise. Oh, you know, it's like they need some identification rather than to imagine it. So the recycling that goes on is because they know it. So the recycling that goes on is because they know it. And since it existed, it can exist again, as opposed to something which is wholly original. It gets lost in the corporate sensibility. So it's very hard to make something that is really original. But that's where the benefit of

what's going on now in terms of this whole thing with streaming video or HBO is they have to work in a different place. Yeah. So they don't compete by trying to do Wonder Woman, et cetera, although they'll touch on it, obviously. But they can do these pieces like Paterno that a studio now doesn't do. You know, it's something we could talk about for days, about the pros and cons of that. And especially when I grew up with the structure of a film, usually it was two hours and things happened, it peaked, and then it went into a place and then it resolved and boom, you were left with the experience. So that's changed somewhat in the cable shows. As a matter of fact,

Netflix produced Irishman. Yeah. So when Irishman comes out, which I would imagine is going to be longer than two hours. But it's not a miniseries. It's not a miniseries.

So it's not made for that thing that that stretches out so that's another thing i i like about hbo is they do they but they do miniseries they do miniseries oh yeah i mean but i like nowadays in terms of the awards and things it's all confused in terms of uh if you take the emmys because the emmys don't know what to do now so a miniseries and a film are in the same category. I actually think they... And that didn't quite make sense.

I think they should redo the categories. I think it's much harder to do a 22-episode show than a seven in some ways, because if you're in 22, you can only hit a certain level of quality doing 22 in a year. Tonally, you have great actors, great scripts. Directors are good.

They're not working with the size of a film. But tonally, how do you, it keeps your, you know what I mean? It's the same thing, but it's changing, but it's somehow very. It's like a third form. Yeah, that's right. It's another way to do it. It would be like saying, well, we can do Casablanca in a long form, but it'll be different because you have to expand it out.

I mean, it's a different form. You as an audience are going through different things when somewhere in the back of your mind, you know that this isn't it. It's going to keep going. And it's going to, you know, so that you'll get a chance to see it again or whatever. But that changes your, I haven't been able to articulate it, but there is something different about it. Like 50 years ago, Godfather is a successful book.

And people are like, oh oh who's getting the movie rights and then that was during that era when they're buying books and turn them into movies and it's clearly going to be a movie yeah 50 years later somebody might look at that as a 10 episode netflix series that's 300 million dollars that's right they might not even think of it as a movie no exactly no yeah that's the thing i don't know if that's a better or worse place to be it's different it's definitely just different it's adjusting to. I don't know if that's a better or worse place to be. Well, it's different. It's definitely just different. It's adjusting to that kind of thing, you know,

both as someone involved in making those and also as an audience. Yeah. I asked you before we started taping how it's changed just to have all this stuff that you guys both have done available. You know, like you think like in the 90s cable takes off there's all these movie channels and you see some stuff you've done is on over and over again but now you have netflix you've amazon you have hbo you have um all these different hulu all these different places yeah and like netflix bought the godfather trilogy i think in january and it was just there it was and it's like here here's the godfather knock yourself out. All three, watch whatever you want.

And that's just where we are in 2018. Yep. Your stuff is just there all the time. Wow, I didn't even know that. Is that good or bad? I'm just learning that now. Oh, you didn't know? Yeah.

Hey, it's all good. Really. There's no downside to that. What else could it be? I mean, I may not be tuning in to watch one of my own kinds of films, but it's nice that they're out there and people can go, know see something they didn't see you're constantly revived i mean you know yeah people see new audiences see things that you did and so you're in a in a way it it it's it's accounts for some of the relevance it does you know it's an odd thing. TCM asked me to come to Buffalo because they wanted to do the natural.

Yeah. In a theater in like a thousand seat. And I said, why wasn't I invited? This is bullshit. I love that movie. I saw the natural in a theater. And this was in a theater. What a great disaster.

So I go up there, you know, to go do it. And I said, you know, is there any people are going to show up? And he said, you know, when we put it online, it sold out in 10 minutes. I said, you know, is there any people are going to show up? You know, when we put it online, it sold out in 10 minutes. I said, you're kidding me. So and the reason is not because people remember from then because it's been running. Oh, yeah. And some people like have seen it over the years. And so they have this special presentation where we showed it on the big screen in a theater. And that's because things stay alive and run.

You know, in the old days, when a film came and disappeared, that was the end of the film. You know, nobody would see it again. That was the end of it until TV came along. There's not a month that goes by that I don't see a film, one film or another, that I missed somehow or it was done 100 years ago.

Yeah. And there you see something, and it's extraordinary. And it's very, you know, it's like novels or something you see over again. I saw the other night Leslie Howard and Norma Shearer in Romeo and Juliet. It's just there. You know, you see this fantastic thing. And you just turn on TCM and there it is. The natural is a good one because there's certain parts where you go in and you're like,

oh, all right, I'm staying. There's always something there. Oh, Roy's in the hospital. All right, I'll stay. I'll wait until he gets out. And then Godfather is another one where AMC will just be like, we're running The Godfather all day. Yeah. And then tomorrow we're running it again.

And they'll do a whole weekend based on this movie that came out 46 years ago. It's really insane. People will still watch it over and over again. No, you have no idea. It's one thing you don't know. You don't know what lasts in The Godfather would be an example of something that just goes

generation to generation to generation. And who would have known when they made, say, you know, Casablanca or, you know, Citizen Kane or Grapes of Wrath, that they're going to hang around, you know, 60 years later, 70 years later. I mean, and they do. You know, that's the exciting part because in some way it's like you're doing something, but you have no idea how it's going to connect. You might think you do, but you don't.

And then the longevity of it is beyond anything you could ever imagine. If they remade the natural now, I think PEDs would be a storyline. People would be wondering, what's going on with this guy? Why is he hitting 450? How did he knock the cover off the wall? Yeah, what's happening? We got to drug test this guy. I have one random question for you.

Yeah? So you do Heat. Yeah. And you have the famous scene with De Niro. Our whole staff loves Heat. Heat has aged very nicely. It's like a nice bottle of wine. It's one of the classics.

How many takes for that scene? Because there's a whole internet conspiracy theory that they filmed your scene and he wasn't there and then they filmed his scene and you weren't there. I think you were both there. Yeah. You were both there. That's what Michael did. Michael Madden, they had two cameras.

Two cameras, but you're looking at each other the whole time. No, we were right there together. Okay, so I just wanted to end that internet conspiracy now. Because over the years, it's been like, no, no, they shot it. It's a stand-in for the other ones. No. That's what I recall. You'd have to ask Bob, too.

I mean, get verification on that. No, it's for sure. I know that's for sure. Okay. I mean, that was a big moment. That was like two of the guys going head to head. Apparently, they weren't together in the taxi. Man, the taxi scene.

Seriously? And Rod Steiger, yeah. They were there for the two shot, but the singles, it was done. Brando's side, Steiger was off camera for it. But then when they did Steiger's side, I think Brando was seeing some psychiatrist or something and he'd have to leave. And they shot it separate. Well, you know, with Marlon, I remember that story.

And I remember I was a young actor doing the scene with Marlon. And it was to do some scene in the hospital. And I remember thinking, well, you know, because he was, you know, a real icon to me and an inspiration to all of us and me especially. So I felt I was better off not having him there because I could relate to some image I had of whoever my father,

whatever I was thinking about at the time. But here it is. He said, Marlon wants to stay to be off camera. And I thought, how do I get out of this? There's nothing I can do now. I thought for sure he wouldn't be there because I had heard he wasn't there for

Steiger. But he was there for me. And I thought, oh no. So I just said, I'll go with it. Did the best I could and your generation it was wonderful that he was there it was fantastic very supportive

your generation like revered him right oh yeah no doubt like there was nobody even close to him no because he just burst in there with Streetcar especially

and he did stuff that we as the young actors we had never seen anything like that. But, you know, oddly enough, as you go on and you keep acting or doing this that we do, and you see things. Like, I see things on television, like I see the old movies, you know.

And you start seeing from whence Marlon's stuff came, you know, the effect. But he was an innovator, an extraordinary spirit that came on. I loved One-Eyed Jacks that he directed. Yeah. The only film he directed. What year are we talking about, 60s?

This was about 1961, maybe, because, you know, these guys in Baltimore, we all used to quote the lines from the movie. Yeah, yeah. And he was, there's a great line where he shoots and kills this guy in a bar. You know, he's a cowboy, you know, a gunslinger. And he's sitting on the bar and Carl Malden, you know, walks in

and said, he sees the dead guy and says, you know, what happened here, kid? And Brando says, he didn't give me no selection, dad. There's another line in there where he says to Carl Malden's character, who is absolutely hateful in the way he's wonderful in it, but he makes you love this guy.

And Marlon looks at him and says, you know, Dad, you're a one-eyed jack in this town, Dad. I've seen the other side of your face. I mean, you make a movie just to do that. Yes, right. Absolutely. I want to say that line. You know, movies have changed so much.

But on the other hand, they really haven't changed. Because even like you look at The Godfather, and they're making that. And everybody's like, this is going to be a disaster. Why'd they pick that young Pacino kid as the lead guy? That was the whole thing. And it's like a whole year of that, right? And we still have that now. That still happens in 2018.

Oh, my God. The budget's so expensive. Why'd they do this? Well, you told that story that the studio was ready to fire you at any given time, right? Well, for sure. They were going to fire me. And this is the only movie I've ever done. And imagine there I was.

It's like a first movie and I was completely innocent and didn't know what was going on and every time I did a take I'd hear people giggling you know like the crew stuff like snickering like laughing

because I had a reputation to be so bad in this film and I because I wasn't really doing anything I guess I had a reputation for being so bad in this film. Because I wasn't really doing anything, I guess. I had some idea that I should start, you know, low-key. Whatever I was doing, it just wasn't striking any note. And Francis knew it, and he took me out one time. He asked me to dinner, at which he was sitting with his family around a table.

And I came in and I thought he was going to offer me the chair. But I just stood there. And he just said, you know, I had a lot of faith in you, Al. And he was really, you know, he was under a lot of pressure. Yeah. So I said, well, what's, I said, what's wrong? You know, I, can I, I don't know what I'm doing what i'm doing he says i put some rushes together and i and i and i and i want you to take a look at them i want you to go to paramount it was on remember that big paramount building yeah that's

five minutes from here yeah yeah well but this was in new york oh i met him in a place called the ginger man at that time and so i I said, okay, I'll go. You know, I'll take a look. He says, why don't you do that? So I thought, I think I'm done. I think that's it. I was there for about a week, week and a half. You're almost like a quarterback because Mike Haynes is the backup.

Exactly right. And I know that it's over. So they must be preparing. So I took a look at what I saw, you know. And I knew that it wasn't really terribly interesting at all. I looked kind of weird and I didn't know what. But at the same time, it's what I had planned. And I couldn't articulate to Francis.

I was too young. I didn't know how to articulate to him that I was going for something. Didn't you say the key was when you finally shot them in the head? No, that was Francis. Francis thought knowing me, he thought, and he moved that scene up. That scene

was scheduled for later on. Did he do that for you? He did it, yeah, to save the part for me. Wow. So he moved the scene there so that if the studio studio he bet that he thought that if the studio saw that scene with Michael, they would keep they would keep me. Louie's restaurant. That was just totally brilliant. It was a great decision on his part because then they can say, oh, yeah, I can see he's a gangster.

Right. Yeah. Up until that point is, you know, I never thought of Michael as a gangster. Right. Up until that point, he was a young man. I never thought of Michael as a gangster. Till this day, I still don't think he was a gangster. He was the mafia chief, but he was like, in his makeup, that wasn't his style. No. His style was a different thing. But that was a scene with a gun.

That was a scene with a gun. So therefore, it was... It's smart of Puzo to have made him a soldier a hero in the war I always thought you were playing that so that the character evolved during the movie but you just couldn't articulate it

I couldn't articulate it to Francis it's like saying to the director don't worry I'll get there they're going to kill us all the studios are going to kill me. They're going to kill us all. The studios are going to stop the picture with you. We can't. Trust you?

You know how a director will say, trust me. But you see, that's another thing I wanted to say with Barry. I just trust him. So it allows me to do so much because I know that he's going to make it and he's going to tell me things that are going to. And I think you really need that when you work. How many years did it take to learn that you had to have that trust to get to where you wanted to get as an actor? Years. Years.

And even now, you just, you know, because you're very exposed as an actor. Yeah. exposed as an actor yeah and uh you you you really and i found you know barry and a couple of others that i i would really i could do it you know i can just do anything i i got a feeling that i i trust their sensor yeah i trust their their sensitivity they'll tell you to dial it back exactly ramp it up whatever you need to do how long did it take you to learn how to delegate to the actor but kind of massage him anyway? Or her? Well, it's a good question. I think because I was in, I spent two years basically every day

with this acting group and a lot of improvisational stuff. You'll throw yourself in a movie every once in a while? A couple times, reluctantly so. I really don't like it and i was an acting group and i didn't even want to act then or do any of that but i did early on realize that the if i can if you can have an actor sort of do it without saying do this try that try that and all of a sudden there's so much there's too many things to think about as opposed to just nudge it, nudge someone this way and that way, we're going to get the most kind of interesting behavior. That was what I was always looking for, that I just believe it, it's interesting behavior.

And then you can modulate it this way or that way. But if you say, when you come over here, stop here, pick up the glass, go over here, and there's too many things to think about, we have to sneak up on it so that it all feels sort of organic. And that was maybe the first thing I thought about. That's a lot what Sidney Lumet did. See, I did those earlier films like Dog Day, Serpentine. Yeah, classics. And what he would do is he had a way of, he says, you know, direct is direct.

I direct and it's sort of like you go in the bank you go here you do this here you turn around here then you do that then you do that and it's like a it's like magic because all you have to do is what he says and you're robbing a bank you know so this is this is I remember that and we And he also rehearsed, because he rehearsed a lot. So we'd be rehearsed in a film. We'd rehearse for weeks on end. And he would start from the first scene to the last scene.

Because when you make movies, you film out of sequence. Yeah. And so you sort of knew by near the end of the film where you were because of all the drilling we had for weeks on end about... Sounds like Belichick

with the preseason. Yeah. Trying to put people in game situations. But every director works in a different way. I mean, there aren't, you know,

it's not like here's the style that you should work in. Everybody has to find their own way of communicating with an't, you know, it's not like here's the style that you should work in. Everybody has to find their own way of communicating with an actor, you know, that somehow that it connects. It starts to work. You know, and so everybody, you know, how did Billy Wilder go about it? What did John Huston do? You know, how did Orson Welles handle it?

I mean, everyone has some different way of constructing it and making a connection so that you end up with this unified piece. You can't end up with this is flying over here. This looks feels like it's burlesque. This is melodrama. You know, you can't. You have to have something cohesive. You worked with Al, obviously. You worked with De Niro.

You worked with Redford. You worked with Hoffman. You worked with Cruise. Did you work with Nicholson? No. No, no. So you've worked with most of the, most of the greats. Is there a common, common gene or a common character thread? Everyone I know was different. Yeah. Dustin had his own things and, you know, you have to find a way to accommodate because he would have questions about something or some, you know, moment or whatever. And you had to find a way to make the connection. You know, I mean, I remember in Rain Man and one thing when we did a take very early on, might have been the first day or second day.

And I said to him after a take, I said, you know know you seem too depressed and and someone who's autistic isn't isn't depressed they're they're busy they're they're looking at things you know it's like how many uh you know how many how many lights are on the ceiling or there's no you know there's something going on there and so we said all right that's a good idea so we go to do the take and now he's looking he's looking he's in etc and tom's talking to him whatever and looking and looking tom's talking and we're not going anywhere i said i cut i said dustin you know he's talking to you he said uh yeah but i was staring into the lights i got so lost with the lights i didn't hear what he said i said well we can't have too far you went

too far we can't do that and so i said said to him, well, you know he's talking. You just don't want to pay attention to him. But you know what he's saying, but you're more involved in the lights. And that's where, if you ever watch the movie, you'll hear him going, yeah. Ray, do you want to do this? Yeah. But he's busy doing it, but he knows he's there. He's tethered to this person.

And until he really pays attention to what he's saying, then he may not want do it but he knows there's a voice but he doesn't want to pay attention and that if that was the way we were able to find that so that he can be busy and not depressed and that little teeny thing was able to anchor it otherwise tom would be talking to himself forever al loves this stuff well i can listen people talk about it reminds me of john casale you remember john casale one of the one of the alzheimer's he was he was wonderful greatest imdb on the internet it was an incredible thing it was just so much i learned from when working with him was and during dog day there was this thing sydney was uh was setting up a scene or something in the bank, and John and I in it.

And I work with John. I work with him all the time. We did theater together. You guys kind of grew up together. I've known him since I was 19. He used to work at Standard Oil, and I met him. We were messengers at Standard Oil, and there he was. And I liked him from the moment I saw him. I just thought, he actually, you know, he was with Meryl.

He lived with Meryl Streep and he met this girl, Meryl Streep, and he said to me, when they came to me, he says, Al, I met this girl, you know, and he was with somebody, I think, his own girlfriend he had, I think, because I met this girl. I really, I'm in love. I'm totally in love. Then he said, she's the greatest actress in the world. I thought.

And she hadn't even done anything. I mean, she hadn't done anything. I didn't know who she was. I thought, this is love, right? It turns out he was right. But there we were in the bank. And he says to Sidney, because he says a line, he says, I'm not a homo.

Why is she calling me a homosexual on the TV? I'm not a homosexual. And he turns to Sidney and he says, why do I say that? And Sidney is, you know, very considerate, very pro-actor and really. And he says, well, you say it. and he says well you say it and he says say and then John says well no I I don't think so because so and so that doesn't work why would I say it he said and then Sidney came up with another elaborate he was so smart you know he'd come up with these answers but I knew what was going on I knew it was going to be a while. So I would take a walk. I took a walk outside.

I came back. They're still at it. Finally, I hear Sidney. Sidney Lumet says, you say it because I tell you to say it. That's why you say it. He said, well, why did you say that in the first place? And that's crazy. But all these stories remind me of things.

He was the great lost actor of your generation. Oh, John? You only made, what, five movies? I think you went five for five with his movies. I know. This guy, did you know John at all? I didn't. Oh, my God.

What an artist. And he even said, we've got to stop working together at one point. Because you did what, four or five with him? And you killed him? Yeah. You killed him in Godfather 2? Yeah, I killed him in 2. I thought that conversation about going somewhere, another country or that, that's a killer little thing.

I mean, that's so, what I love about it, it's a background. Yeah, why I like to go to Wyoming. What I loved about that moment is, yes, it's a bank robber is doing all that, but they're having these conversations that are so delightful and inform the character in a way to an audience that you understand this. You understand it. Subterranean. Yeah, and that's what's so great about it, as opposed to, you can never just do plot, plot, plot, and information. Inside of it, there has to be this kind of behavior.

Then that tells you more about the characters, about where they're going to go fly to, et cetera. And that little thing tells you so much about character behavior that really informs a movie. Well, remember tarantino did reservoir dogs and pulp fiction and people were like wow he's this thing he's doing with the characters where they're about to commit a crime but they're talking about mcdonald's it's like yeah that's from the 70s that's well he said to me he said to me uh one time i i mean

he might have just be uh complimenting me in ways when I said something about in Reservoir Dogs and he said, to me, it was really doing Tin Men with Guns. Yeah. And I said, oh, that's interesting, you know. And it's what he had passed on. So he had that kind of behavior going on.

During Dog Day, this great AD, Bert Harris, you've heard of him? Yeah. Burt Harris. He was Sydney's assistant director. Yeah. And this is the thing I love about films when they're active and alive

because I was there and I was about to go out into the street and start talking to the crowd, you know. And Burt just comes up to me, whispers in my ear, he says, say Attica. So I said, Att Attica he says just just say Attica go out there and say Attica Attica because what had happened at the time you remember yeah Barry there was this big uh explosion in Attica prison yeah where they killed these prisoners etc so I just out. It was not in the script. But I went out there and I started saying to the crowd, Attica. You know Attica?

Remember Attica? They all started screaming, yes. And it became this scene. And it happened right in the moment. So it's that kind of stuff that you keep your tentacles out for that, that somehow if that gets in the air, if that antennae is out there for something that can happen. It's harder sometimes when you don't have the time or you haven't had the rehearsal time because you're trying

to get through the day. Yeah. But that's the general, the kind of thing that could happen. or you haven't had the rehearsal time simply because you're trying to get through the day. Yeah. But that's the general, the kind of thing that could happen. Well, those things that catch on. Yeah. I mean, that audience, those extras, all those actors and people out there, they didn't know about it.

They just started going when they heard Attica. And then Sidney incorporated into the film. But that came from an AD. Wow. A very smart guy, by the way way very film uh high film iq and and he would say other things to me periodically just so there's there's in that there's a kind of freedom uh when you know you there's a looseness on the set with sydney always when you're doing the natural, did you make anything up on the fly? Yeah, I mean, as I remember,

there's a scene between Farnsworth and Brimley. Because, you know, you see coaches sitting in an afternoon while practice is going on. And they used to, because they knew each other so well, and they were they were doing. He mentioned he'd start to hum a song and he'd say, that's, you know, blah, blah, blah, the name of it, whatever. And and I said, why don't we like shoot that? Let's just make why don't we just shoot that?

It's like a lazy afternoon. You know, they're having practice and the two guys there. And so they did that where they do like name that tune. They're having it and they're having practice and the two guys there and so they did that where they do like name that tune they're humming it and they're having a good time with one or i just put the camera on a shot for like five minutes and let them just do whatever they did and mixed it into the film yeah that's one of the things that jumps out at me that i can remember off the top of my head that movie has some good just what baseball is like day-to-day moments in it because you want to put a little in there.

And at the same time, you've got this extravagance of, you know, hitting a ball into the towers and all, you know, that aspect to it. But there is this little intimate moments that you try to find in anything because I think it's somehow it allows an audience to connect to inside of the characters. I once, in 2001, I wrote a column trying to figure out what Roy Hobbs' stats were that season. And based on all the hits and his slumps and all that stuff, I think I had him at like 390 with 45 homers or two-thirds of a season or so.

He definitely was good, though. This was great. I really enjoyed this. Thank you, guys. Paterno comes out. What was today uh april 7th i believe hbo eight o'clock april 7th oh man that's three days before the andre the giant documentary it's a big week yeah that's gonna be a good week for hbo yeah we did a movie uh a documentary about andre the giant i saw some ads on it yeah you don't have an andre Giant story, do you, Al? No. No? I wasn't in The Princess Bride.

Was I? I don't know if you ever ran into him in New York City or everything, drinking Beaujolais or who knows. No, I missed him. Good luck with the movie. I thought it was excellent. I think that's a really hard subject to pull off.

Thank you. Thanks. I was really into it. Great. Thanks for coming on. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to check it out at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to Gillette.

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Offer expires April 15th. The next time you hear from me, oh yeah, Durant Simmons 5, it's happening. Going to San Francisco, God knows how long it's going to be. It is running probably Tuesday, maybe Wednesday morning, not sure yet. Be ready. Kevin Durant, back on the BS Podcast. Until then.