The Bill Simmons Podcast - An Impressive Warriors Title, Curry’s Pantheon Jump, and Tatum’s Finals Swoon With Joe House

Episode Date: June 17, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to discuss the Warriors defeating the Celtics to become the 2022 NBA champions, Steph Curry’s Finals MVP performance, why the Andrew Wiggins trade may have swung the series, Warriors head coach Steve Kerr, takeaways for the Celtics, and more. Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Joe House Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up on the podcast, I went to game six of the 2022 finals, and it did not have the result I wanted. It was like Al Pacino's Michael Corleone, Godfather's, dude, this was not what I wanted. It's all next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet at all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what

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They put up a little instant reaction to day one of the U.S. Open. We are going to day two of the U.S. Open, and we're going to do a podcast afterwards, heading into the weekend. Coming up on this podcast, Joe House and I went to game six of the finals. We walked back. I tried to keep my composure. And we did a podcast.

And it's next. I wish we had a sadder Pearl Jam song to play, but we'll stick with this one. Here's our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, taping this, it is midnight Eastern time. The Gold State Warriors just won the 2022 NBA Finals. House and I went to the game. It was in Boston, Massachusetts.

It was pretty clear where it was headed early on. The Warriors were a better team. They peaked over the last three games. It reminded me of the 2014 finals house. Spurs heat when everybody was kind of waiting for the heat to come back, but the Spurs had found something in that series. They had found some sort of ball movement thing. Their bench was better and they could just smell it. And that's how I felt after game five.

I felt like the Warriors could smell it. And then the Celtics, what they smelled was a big fart because for the most part, they had four guys show up in that game. But let's talk about the Warriors though. Yeah. Let's talk about the Warriors. What a belatedly great team that was. I'm trying to be diplomatic. Just the ball movement and just how they revolved around Curry and different guys stepping up and the defense they were playing. That was the best they played all season and they picked the perfect time. So that's belatedly great. By that you mean they came together, they coalesced,

they have found an identity, they were all healthy. We got, you know, Clay didn't even have a great shooting game. Five for 20. Didn't matter because other guys stepped up. Draymond stepped up. Draymond stepped up. Draymond stepped up game. Big time. Peyton was really good again.

Wiggins was solid again. They found some pool stuff. Wiggins was absolutely fantastic. I thought he, he will get to Tatum later. I don't want to lead with Tatum, but he ate Tatum's lunch today. He put 44 minutes and kicked his ass.

But you know, the big, the big story coming out of this whole series and the way we're going to remember it is the Steph Curry. I'm putting myself on the map in a real way. I have to be mentioned along with the legends. Stop putting asterisks next to me. I'm one of the great players in the history of the league.

And his three Boston games were fantastic. He had 31, 43, and 34 in the three at-Boston games. And over and over again was just torturing the crowd. That 32-footer he hit in the third quarter was out of control. It is always something. I was glad I was here for both moral support

and for athletic support. I'm an athletic supporter for you. Seeing him make like you can't believe how long the ball is in the air. That's the thing when you see it in person. Yeah, you hadn't seen this in this version of Steph, right? I mean, I've seen him. I've seen Golden State.

I've been lucky enough to see them a couple times a year. But not this 2022 playoffs version. No, definitely not. No, this is my first playoffs game of the entire finals. So, yeah. And what it does morale-wise in terms of inspiring his own team, the bench loses its mind. You were close to the bench, right?

Yes. So that bench was all standing. They had all the owners next to the bench, and they were just all going nuts. Like the bench guys, some of them on the end will go running down the tunnel sometimes when they when he starts launching like that yeah you know that that so that's one element of it like it inspires his team it demoralizes the celtics but in the crowd he also that yeah has a sense of now like i need to take over a

little bit i need to assert myself things little bit. I need to insert myself a little bit. Things are slipping away. I need to do something here. Yeah. What do you expect out of the great ones? And that's the thing. It's so rare for a guard to be this good. Because usually when you see somebody put their imprint on a series

like that, it's usually either it's a center or it's like a LeBron Durant type of forward who can either get to the rim and post up and just kind of overpower you a little bit. He overpowers you from the air. It's like an air assault. I like this.

Is there any comp to Isaiah Thomas? He's so much better. I think he's so much better. No, I understand. It's a different era. It's not really fair to compare. The way when Isaiah could take over and you felt helpless. That's what I'm thinking of. And a little guy, not a huge guy.

I think what makes him special and just the experience of rooting against him, which I'm going to need like psychotherapy this summer about, he's just always lingering in a different way. Like Giannis was like this in round two where yannis was just the the shark from jaws and you just always had to remember he was around and he was just kind of swimming around the ocean he had blocked shots and get rebounds and do different things steph you can look up and it's like oh steph's not really happy and then all of a sudden he has like 22 in this in quarter. And you're like, wait, how did he get to 22?

The aspect of his arsenal that is so powerful is the ability to get to the rim. Right. Do you have an answer for why they put poor Al Horford out on an island like that in the fourth quarter? I don't think they'd run out of ideas. The Warriors were just getting whatever switches. You saw the one time in the fourth quarter the Celts were trying to get a stop. And they sent a second guy at him and led to a Wiggins three in the fourth quarter. I didn't think they'd run out of ideas. The Warriors were just getting whatever switches. You saw the one time in the fourth quarter the Celts were trying to get a stop and they sent a second guy at him

and led to a Wiggins three in the corner. The Warriors had just, they had solved the geometry of the series. They were like, we can get Steph on any of your guys. He can get to the basket anytime he wants. He's available from 30 feet to just hit a three to demoralize you anytime he wants. It was a loud, he had finished with 34.

It was a loud 34. Loud. MVP. Yeah. What you'd expect. It felt right. He hit 31 threes in the series. He moved up my Pantheon.

Okay. Where is he now? He was 16. Yep. Last year I put him in. I think he's in the top 10 for me now. That was a question. I arrived tonight wondering. We had a long walk back from the TD Ameritrade Bank Garden.

What do they call it? Whatever his name is. Me and Nate, we had a little conversation. Is Steph in the top 10 now? I his name is. Me and Nate, we had a little conversation. Is Steph in the top 10 now? I think he is. Wow. I have him leapfrogging. I had him behind the following six guys that I think he has not leapfrogged.

The great Moses Malone. Shaquille O'Neal. Okay. God bless Shaq. Yeah. But the flaw with him was those last four minutes in a close game. It was still an issue, but I mean, we're talking, this is hollow ground

we're hitting. Yes. This hurts. Hakeem Olajuwon. Wow. I think he passed him. Because I think the added thing of how he just changed how basketball was played, and he changed the geometry of the sport itself, I feel like has to factor in if we're talking Pantheon. None of these guys changed basketball.

They didn't change how we thought about it, considered it, the whole thing. And he did it. He's the best expression of how basketball changed. You think he changed basketball? I do. I think the league changed.. I think the league changed. But I think the league changed partly because of

the stuff he was doing. He was the first one. He was fucking Neil Armstrong. Okay. Nobody was doing shit like that before. People are hitting threes, but not like this.

Not where... Well, the league... Remember Barkley for years talking about, you know, you gotta... You can't win just shooting jump shots.

He fucking won four titles now. They've won four titles in eight years. Six visits to the finals in eight years too. So I got him passing Robertson and West. And then Durant. Because Durant never did this. You can't put Durant ahead of Curry. Durant never

was decidedly the best player in a team that was built around him. He had the chance in 2016. He didn't deliver. He had the chance in 2020 or 2021, and this year he didn't deliver. I have a serious case of recency bias when it comes to Kevin Durant. I can't unsee him being stopped in the fourth quarter by Al Horford. It's year 15 in his career at that point.

It's tough. It's just tough. He chose and they got swept and that's it. You can't erase that. I think the argument now is Curry versus Kobe. I have Kobe 9 and Curry 10. I think that is now a legitimate argument

because you're talking about Michael Jordan's the best guard of all time. Magic Johnson is the best guard, second best guard of all time. That's your backcourt. And then who's your guard off the bench on the all-time team? Is it Kobe or it's Steph?

I personally just like the stuff, if I'm thinking all-time, wine bottle, all that stuff, I just like the stuff Steph brings to the table more than the Kobe piece. But, you know, Kobe back-to-back finals MVPs. He won five titles. Steph's got four. But now Kobe's in play. He could pass Kobe with one more.

He could pass Kobe with one more. I want to give Kobe a little respect for that force of will. What we've done, what we've learned legacy-wise, and when we don't see it in players, young players, young players that want to mimic Kobe, the force of will is something that really will always distinguish

Kobe. Obviously, I was a huge Steph guy and a huge Steph defender. To watch him cement his legacy against my favorite team, I'm going to need the summer to sort it out.

There's going to be some drinks in the deck. There's going to be some cocktails. There's going to be some sad moments. I left. I left the game. You stayed. I left with 90 seconds left. My dad's like, I want to get out of here.

And we just left. And I didn't even see him get the finals MVP. And I feel like I was like one of I was one of his biggest non-warrior fans so I understand you stayed what was it like there were a lot of people there a lot of people stayed now there was a

Boston fans yeah there was a lot of green still on the stands out of respect I think he did a great job he did do a great job I had my dad wanted to go and I just my dad's 74. And I was worried about him. I was worried that you might excommunicate Nate and I, cause we stayed,

but I should have stayed. Yeah. I got to see Steph Curry get his first ever finals MVP trophy. Yeah. It should have been his second, but I was sure. Sure. But I,

he should have won in 15. I was happy to see it. I was pleased. What was the reaction with the team and stuff? What do you mean? They chanted MVP while Mark, what's his face, gave the assistant commissioner. A couple other Warriors notes. Oh, so Curry, Kerr, Dre, and Clay. Four titles, six finals.

Four titles in eight years, which has. Four titles, six finals. Four titles in eight years, which has not been done since Bulls. Six titles in eight years. The Spurs won five titles, but that was from 1999 to 2014. You can't call it a dynasty, but it's definitely the weirdest run I think we've had.

Why can't you call it a dynasty? Because it's just not. It's a run. What's a dynasty? It's not that. What is it? It's not that. They were like at the second pick of the lottery one of those years. They missed the playoffs last year.

Who are the dynasty teams then? No. The Bulls and that's it? I think they're the team of the decade though. I think that's what they get. Or the team of their generation, whatever. I think it's the team of the decade, though. I think that's what they get. Or the team of their generation, whatever. I think it's the Duncan Spurs. I don't really want to play semantics,

but six finals in eight years is kind of pretty good. The league is 50 years old, 55 years old, 60 years old. The era is 40 years old. It's the equivalent of if the Celtics, you know, the Celtics had the 81, 80, 46, and then couldn't figure out that next stretch when they had the D Brown,

Brian Shaw, Reggie Lewis, and 91, 92 bird got hurt. All those guys, the Lakers, same thing. They had the run from 80 to 88.

Then it seemed like they had figured out a next version of themselves with Vlade and Magic and that Sam Perkins. You're saying neither of those teams are dynasties? No, no. I'm saying well, the Lakers are probably more of a dynasty. But no, I'm just saying how they reinvented themselves when it seemed like they were

done. Durant goes to Brooklyn. And it's just the way the league works, that should be it. Like the Len Bias loses for the Celtics. That's it. Magic contracts HIV. That's it. Lakers are done. You go on down the line, MJ and Pippen, they decide, you know, the Pippen thing that comes to it, the Bulls are done. The Lakers and Kobe and Shaq and Kobe and Shaq don't get along anymore. And then the Lakers are done for five years and come back for the last two. But to just reinvent yourself with the core so what is so unusual what you missed in the trophy

presentation was when lisa salters began her interview with steve kerr he basically said 10 seconds worth of i love my team and then it was like get bob myers over here this guy created this he put this team together yeah he said bye this guy does not get the credit he deserves. Come over here. Get on camera. He should. We should be talking about him like he's Sam Preston. Yes. Well, first of all, and there's been good stories about this, but he figured out how to turn the Durant asset into something.

Now, Durant's got to be kicking himself because Durant could have just signed with Brooklyn. And he was kind of throwing the Warriors a solid by allowing it to be a sign and trade. They didn't have to agree to do that. That ended up how they got Russell back. But if they don't get Russell back, they can't get Wiggins. So Durant, who is probably going to take shit over the next 24 hours because Steph wasn't without him, but

the Warriors owe a huge debt to Durant that he hooked him up. Because he could have said, fuck you. And by the way, he probably should have. If you're competitive, there's 30 teams in the league, and that's a potential threat, and you're trying to win a title somewhere else, maybe say, you know what?

Fuck you. I'm not helping you. Sorry. I gave you two titles. I took you. I helped you get to the third finals, and I'm out. I'd say we gave you two titles. Yeah, or both.

You can quibble who gave who what. No, but KD was trying to do the right thing, but I wonder, you know. He was quibble who gave who what. No, but KD was trying to do the right thing, but I wonder... He was doing the right thing on his way out. Right, because he probably felt a little bad that, you know, he was ditching him.

Credit to Bob Myers. Let's take a break, because I want to talk about the Wiggins trade and the rest of the Warriors so much. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember.

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We were talking about KD. KD does them a solid. KD signed a trade for Russell. They know pretty early. Russell and Curry together makes no sense. I mean, I guess eventually his Jordan pool would have been the best possible outcome for Russell, like a guy off the bench.

But that's not who Russell wanted to be. He would have never agreed to that. He would not have accepted it. It would not have been workable. And Poole's a bad defensive player. So is Russell. But I think Poole kind of fits into the framework better. So they turned him into Wiggins and the future draft pick, who, by the way, they didn't even

need the draft pick. And Wiggins was, I think everybody's one of their least favorite players. All the people who love basketball, you look at him and you go, that's, that's just the guy I'm out on. He doesn't have it. He's,

he's, you watch, you watch Wiggins and he's just gone for a half hour. And you're like, wait, was Wiggins out there? I can't remember. Like he has all the tools.

He doesn't want it. And by this finals, he was fucking awesome. We watched so many games of his where he might even be really efficient, like 17 points and a half or something. And we would look up and say, that was the quietest 17 points I've ever seen. That was like the legacies he seemed headed towards. He's soft. He's missing a fire.

He doesn't have. Man, if you could put so-and-so's head on Wiggins' body, he'd be amazing. He kept having that conversation. He played like he didn't love basketball. Yes. You know why he didn't love basketball? Because he had like four coaches in six years. He played on a shit team

in a city that had no success other than 2004. Meanwhile, he's putting up stats. You go back, he was like 17, 18, 19, 20 points a game. He's a good athlete, but man, what he did in this series, I was so impressed by him.

I feel like he kind of broke Tatum. That's interesting. Him and Draymond together, it hit a point by today, Tatum couldn't score on him anymore. The psychobabble.

We will engage in all kinds of psychology. That'll be the next break for Tatum. Pop psychology for Tatum. But the thing with Wiggins, I love it when folks from your crew come out with the receipts. KOC this week trotted out both his draft analysis of Andrew Wiggins and a column that he wrote coincident with Wiggins arriving with the Warriors and made the point that this really could work. This could be the landing spot for Wiggins where he excels. By the way, Roussel and I did that when we did our trade deadline podcast. We both liked the trade because the theory was like you're putting him in the best possible infrastructure.

If there's anything in there, it's going to come out. And part of the thing you forget, there's a culture with the Warriors. When you have Kenny Atkinson and Mike Brown and Steve Kerr and the continuity of the assistant coaches, that whole staff. Man, they can go pick guys and have one-on-one conversations. While the team is getting coached up, the team on the floor is getting coached up, and these head coaches are over on having one-on-one conversations. They have Atkinson as an assistant. Atkinson might be one of the eight best coaches in the league. He's just like that.

And Mike Brown's like a Draymond whisperer. He's in his face, like, you know, keeping his head on, keeping him, you know. That's the thing. Organizationally, you just have to hand it to him. They spent like an incredible amount of money. We have all these, we've rooted for teams. There's a reason I stopped following hockey. The fucking Celtics, the one year they made the Vin Baker trade so they could get under

the luxury tax. They didn't realize, or maybe they did, that he had all these problems. But, you know, what we want from our franchises and our owners is like, spend some fucking money.

Your team increases in value every year. Put it back in the team. These guys did this in kind of almost a reckless way. I mean, they spent like, create with the luxury tax and stuff. Like last year, just Kelly Oubre, I think that was like a $100 million decision

just to not trade him at the deadline. But that you can't argue with just how first class everything is on their end where you look at like the Suns where they lowball Aiton. They screw up the Jalen Smith pick

and they don't take Halliburton and then they just get rid of Jalen Smith pick and they don't take Halbert and then they just get rid of Jalen Smith because they want to cut Salah's cap. The Warriors are the opposite of that, of the Sarver. Who's the cheapest? Oh, Angelos. You stopped rooting for the Orioles.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You quit on the Orioles before you even got the Washington team. That was for sure. I mean, when they started cost-cutting back in 19, I had season tickets

to the Orioles, but yeah, Angelos ruined it for me. Yeah, so, you know, I know it's fun to like kind of poke fun

at the Warriors and Lakob and he's obviously a little, he can be a little arrogant from time to time, but I have so much respect for the organization.

You made the key point. Bob Myers, we always ran a little presti time to time, but I have so much respect for the organization. You made the key point. Bob Myers, we always ran, oh, presti, presti, presti. I'm guilty of it too. And Myers crushed it. Crushed it. And he could have panicked and he could have made it. We talked a week ago on this podcast about did the Warriors blow it when they were down 2-1 in the series?

Did they blow it not making a trade deadline trade? Should they trade one of those picks? Are they missing a guy? And they didn't. They played perfectly. Pretty good. The Wiggins trade. I think it's now an all-timer for me.

I thought he was their second best player in the series. And he won them the title. I mean, Curry won them the title. But that trade, which was just really smart i was thinking of trades that actually you could you could just point to and say they swung a title in kawaii in 2019. okay kawaii in 2019 yes i think that trade did swing a title i saw zaza tonight by the way i took a picture zaza didn't swing a title well he did he he oh yeah yeah, because he heard Kawhi. Pau Gasol. 2008 trade ended up

led to two Lakers trade titles and I'll never get over that. I remember where I was when they made the trade. Memphis was like, here, take Pau Gasol. We'll take a bunch of crap back. That's the blemish on it. And then they're like, no, we got Marc Gasol out of it.

No, Marc Gasol is 350 pounds when you made that trade. That's the blemish on David Stern's legacy. You can never disallow a trade with Chris Paul in the same era as permitting that trade to go through. Rasheed Wallace, 2004. Big time. That won them the title. Swung a title to the Detroit Pistons. Bill Walton, 1986.

Okay. Sixth man of the year. Yeah. Pushed that team over the top. And then I got Parrish and McHale in 1980. I'm not counting Moses because they signed Moses as a free agent and they did compensation. Parrish and McHale make that trade.

They trade down from one to three. They pick up. They take McHale. They get Parrish and Dale. They win down from one to three. They pick up, they take McHale, they get Paris and Dale, they win the title next year. I mean, those are like, Oh gee,

all time trades. And it's crazy to think Wiggins belongs on that list, but he does. Cause they won the title. Cause that trade, he was the most consistent. He played 44 minutes tonight. He might've been,

would you say he was more consistent than Steph? No. Steph had one bad game and then one bad game. He still has an enormous impact because of the pressure that he creates on the defense. Wiggins hit a point where I was surprised

when his shot wasn't going in. I think he was like 8 for 18. It wasn't even like he was awesome. I always felt like he was making it. And then the stuff he was doing defensively was just out of control. I mean, that was like, you know, if Kawhi and Pippen are the top of the ladder,

I'm not saying he was up there, but next level down of just insane defense by a wing and his rebounding. Yeah. And man, he was something. I think he was 18-9 in the finals.

44%. Last four games, he played 40, 43, 43, and 44. His overs were among my favorite plays on the Ringer Gambling Show. My lesson from the Wiggins trade is a lesson we already knew. Always bet on the pedigree. This is why I like, yeah, sure,

I'll take a flyer on Marvin Bagley. It's like, if I'm a top five lottery pick, there's talent in there and you really have to look at situation and you just have to factor that in. There can't, Wiggins was this good in college. He had this many tools and you can't just write somebody like that off.

And we learned that over and over again. I don't know though. Here's the problem. Cause how many franchises do you believe are capable of taking pedigree and bringing out the best? Like it's not that many, but, but it could still happen.

It is one of them. So who's like a pedigree guy. San Antonio is one of them. Yeah. Well, I wonder, I feel like somebody because Marvin Bagley to me might be, Antonio is one of them. Yeah. Well, I wonder. I feel like somebody. Because Marvin Bagley to me.

Boston might be one of them. We'll see. Maybe. I think DeAndre Ayton is going to go to the right situation. Now, it's funny that the Suns is not the right situation, but he didn't have the maturity to deal with the team not offering him the extension, and it impacted his relationship with the coach of the year, Mike Williams.

I mean, but I respect Phoenix's ability developmentally. I mean, they made Mikael Bridges a gigantic amount of money. I was thinking more of the people on the bad teams.

Like somebody like Darren Fox, right? Who's never been in a good situation. I'm not a huge fan of Darren Fox, but in the right situation, would there be this other level? Anyway, this would be a good topic for a summer podcast. More Warriors subplots. Draymond was 12-12-8 today, put 42 minutes.

Incredible renaissance by him the last couple of days. His defense went to another level. He's pushing the ball. It's literally the version that everybody thought we were going to see throughout the entire final. So what happened? I don't know what happened to him. Did he go to Germany? How many Warriors went to Germany?

They might have. Did somebody bring back the Concorde? He's a different guy. It was a supersonic jet flight to Germany. Maybe it was his mom, a bad talk, and him on the Twitter. Maybe. His mom did bad Germany. Maybe it was his mama bad talking him on the Twitter. Maybe. His mama did bad talking him. Maybe it was the fuck you Draymond trance.

Maybe it was. Because Clay was another one who had a crazy renaissance. He was not great tonight, but they really needed him in game four and game five. He just looked so much better. We were lucky enough to be together in March, and we went and saw the Lakers play the Warriors on a Saturday night. He just didn't have any

definition. He didn't look like the kind of athlete that we'd come to see out of him. And he would look so much better tonight than what we saw in March. Well, Draymond, I gotta hand it to him.

I thought he was really good tonight. He made a couple pivotal outside shots at the right times. I just thought that was the best game I've seen him in person. He also shot with confidence. Yeah, he did. He was really good.

He was probably their third best player today. I still have Wiggins as the second best player in that game. Steve Kerr, nine rings. I thought, look third best player today. I still have Wiggins as the second best player in that game. Steve Kerr, nine rings. I thought, look, I'm biased. I'm friends with Steve Kerr. Known him for, I don't know, 15, 16 years. He's one of my favorite people to talk basketball with.

I was so impressed by his coaching this whole postseason run, but especially the Celtics series. He picked the wings off the butterfly, him and his staff. They just, I saw it in game five, and I was telling you guys, we're walking down. How pessimistic was I before this game? Very, very. You did not express any optimism, not at any point today,

in the run-up to today, since game five. You've just been, you're like, I just don't think we're going to do it. I would never bet against the Celtics, especially in the finals. But I was just like, I was going to be so surprised. To me, it had to be some sort of crazy monkey wrench, like Peyton Pritchard hitting seven threes type of thing. Because I just really felt, we talked about this last night, I just really felt like the Warriors had solved them. And the last time, I remember when I did that 2014 finals

and we were doing countdown that year, and I was like, I think that in the pregame, I was like, I think this series is over. I think Santonio has figured out this team, the ball movement, Miami just can't handle it. And today was like that too. They figured out, let's talk about the Celtics after the break. The Kerr thing though.

What are you giving him specific credit for in terms of figuring it out? Is it the defensive scheme? Is it taking Tatum out? They let Marcus Smart self-combust. Defensive scheme was incredible. The ball movement and the way they took care of the ball. Now, I don't. 17 turnovers tonight.

No, but in game five, I think they had six. Yeah. Today was... I mean, the Celtics were playing pretty crazy defense. And, you know, it's just the defense on both sides, I thought, was great. But Kerr's a big turnovers guy. He hates them. If you go look at his basketball reference, not a lot of turnovers on the Steve Kerr's a big turnovers guy he hates them if you go look at his basketball reference

not a lot of turnovers on the Steve Kerr page but the ball movement and the way they they figured out they always had somebody who could move the ball

at the top of the key right even like when they would throw Iguodala out there there always there was some sort of movement the way he would kind of bring Looney in at the right times

all of a sudden all of a sudden Looney would be getting rebounds. I thought how he staggered that was really smart. How they handled the Draymond thing was incredible. Fucking benched the guy in game four. That could have blown up your team, and it didn't. It went the other way. And then I thought that he really figured out the right way to use Poole in that series.

Because I think Poole could have gone the other way and really shot them out of some quarters. They clearly, and this again, I'll give credit to both Kerr and that coaching staff. They kept him engaged. They really kept him. Because he didn't play a lot of minutes. He only played 18 minutes in the game. Today, this is a guy who people are talking about. He's their third best guy. But his minutes, like in the last series, he played 28 minutes a game.

In the Memphis series, he played 30 minutes a game. In this series, his minutes go from 25, 23, 24, 21, 14, 18. And they basically just used him in little eight, nine-minute stretches each half. Super impactful. And he bought in. And that's what I mean by the coaching. It's stuff like that. It's like if you're going to bench Draymond in game four, you better have the gravitas

with your team. I have to give a demerit. And over the course of this finals, I said, you know, if it doesn't go the Warriors way, one of the things that I would point to for playing Andre Iguodala for the first six minutes of the fourth quarter in game one. That's like a loyalty thing, though, with him. That's fine.

They lost the basketball game because of it. I know. But if you watch the bench and you're sitting there today, Iguodala is the most important guy on the bench for them. He's a coach. He's a coach. He adds to the coaching staff.

So I think that was like a respect thing. But notice Iguodala didn't play the last couple games. He got hurt. He was hurt. He had a knee issue the second game too. No, he wasn't playing. Really good team. To me, it's very similar to the 2014

Spurs. I don't think we'll remember them historically as a muscle team. We'll remember the Curry piece. I think it was surprising all the way until the end, but it feels like the right result. I don't feel like... I think it's the right result.

There's not a what if. The only what if of this season, honestly, is the Chris Middleton injury. And what would that Milwaukee team have been if they were healthy? They would have been in the finals. I agree with you. And what would that finals

have looked like a pretty radically different kind of vibe altogether because well because they would have had they would have been able to bring a superstar into the finals yes which is unfortunately the celtics did not have one and we're gonna take a break and then talk about them and i'm gonna try to be nice. So walked, walked back with my dad. I think all the Celtic fans are thinking this way. And it's the, look, I don't know if I'll think this way in a month, but it is one of those things like, was that finals actually kind of damaging? Was that like bad? Like, are there, you know,

like you have those Super Bowl losses where the team that gets their ass kicked in the Super Bowl or they fall apart in some way and then the next year they go 6-11. I'm not saying that's going to happen in the Celtics, but the Tatum thing was really bad. And I don't, I, you know, there's been a lot of whispers about

was his shoulder hurt, which is not true. Two things. One is Jalen Brown was down early in the game and Tatum went over and picked him up with his right arm. Okay. So if he had a separated shoulder or some sort of thing, he's just not picking Tate Brown up with his right arm. And he also had the dunk. I think he just got overwhelmed. And I was watching, you know, my dad's seats are near the Celtics bench. I was watching the whole game. I was watching the Celtics, how they're interacting. Tatum was deer in the headlights. He wasn't talking to anybody. He wasn't interacting with anybody. He was just sitting on the bench. He was just staring straight ahead.

And it looked like the Warriors had broken him. And I've been in a lot of Celtic games. He is always really engaged, really confident, chest out, walking around, whether a shot's going or not. This game, he was not like that. There was a huge stretch of time where he did not score. And didn't seem like he wanted the ball. He had 11 points in the second half for almost the entire second half.

I didn't get a chance to sit down and look at the actual game time that he was stuck on 11. He was stuck on 11 for a long ass time. How about the play in the corner as the game was starting to slip away a little bit and they found him for a wide open three in front of the Warriors bench. And he pumped it.

And he didn't want to take it. And then he traveled. Yeah. This guy went into Milwaukee and put up 46 on the Bucs. He was completely unafraid. And he seemed like one of the next superstars in the league. And now it's like all the momentum from that is gone because he sucked in this finals. And I hate to, I don't want to criticize. I think he's an amazing player, all that and being careful but he really sucked he can play so

much better than that and i don't know what happened and none of the self-defense this is all we've been talking about this whole series what is going on with this guy what happened i don't have an answer for you in terms of what happened i do think some element of it for sure is scheme what Golden State did in terms of making him uncomfortable. They were definitely physical with him. They were, but every team's been physical with him. Milwaukee was physical with him. Miami was incredibly physical with him. So part of the thing, and I asked this in anticipation of tonight's game, is he exhausted? I mean, maybe it's just that

his brain isn't telling him that he's exhausted, but his body might be. He's 24 years old. I've covered this in the past. He's ahead of the curve. Usually you peak from 27 to 30. You go to that next level. Other great players have had bad

series like this. You go back and look at Kobe. Kobe's 2004 finals are a disaster, right? They're just awful. He sucked the whole series. So you can have the series that sucks. I think what was weird to me was the spirit was off. Like it really seemed like, I don't know whether he was mentally exhausted. I don't know whether like having to chase Curry around, all the stuff they had to do with the Curry, how worried you are all the time, whether that broke them. But it got to the point, like, I mean, you've seen the numbers in the paint. He shot like 35%.

He shot better on threes than twos, all that stuff. It got to the point where he was driving the basket, and I never thought the layup was going to go in. Every time with Curry, you think it's going in. Wiggins, you thought it was going in. Tatum, it was like, that was why we were wondering if he was hurt. Because he's contorting to almost not have

contact. Avoid contact. We were having this conversation in the text while we were watching the game. Why is he avoiding contact? He did it at the very beginning of the game. Why aren't you dunking over Steph Curry? Or, I mean, Draymond was chasing on a sort of breakaway thing and catches

up, but he turns his back and tries a layup over his shoulder. The whole thing was... We were watching him, my dad and I, and it was just really strange. Sports is weird, man. Your confidence can go. And he lost his confidence.

He did lose his confidence. I agree with this. I really don't think he was injured. I thought he was injured for most of the series, but I really watched him carefully tonight. I don't think he was injured. I think he was beaten up and tired, and he couldn't figure, the Warriors,

it was the same thing like how Durant, like the Celtics kind of broke Durant for as much as you can break somebody who's as great as him, but they did so many things, like he just couldn't solve it, things. He just couldn't solve it. And Tatum just couldn't solve it. So if you want a glass half full, you say, yeah, this is what it takes.

Finals reps. Welcome to the finals, Junior. This is what happens. You play these games against these really smart teams that have as much talent as your own team. And you better be resilient. You have to figure it out. And so the next year is going to be pretty pivotal. One of the questions I had is, who's the alpha

on the Celtics team? Is it Al Horford? Is he the alpha? He was great tonight. He was a monster. He was great. Smart. He got in foul trouble. Smart gave everything he had, even though he's up and down as always. Horford, smart. Robert Williams was flying around. He's not even healthy, but I thought defensively it was really impactful. And Jalen had his typical Jalen game, right? He was awesome,

had a couple of terrible plays, but for the most part, I thought really fought. And that was the thing that alarmed me with Tatum. I thought he was playing good defense, but offensively it was just weird to watch him. I felt like he kind of melted down. We just didn't see that opportunity in the corner, that three you described that ended up in a travel is the perfect example

of it. He just didn't look in rhythm. That's a catch and shoot. What are you doing? You're driving down and Draymond's underneath the basket and you have momentum. Exactly. How do you end up Euro stepping sideways? How can you not

finish? Go to the front of the rim. My dad and I were walking home and I was like because I remember Antoine against the Nets in 2002-2003. Kenny Martin just destroyed Antoine. That was different And that was different because that was a talent thing.

It was like, you play this a hundred times and Kenny Martin's going to kick Antoine's ass. Antoine was never really the same after those two series. This one was like, I know Tatum can play better than this. What is going on?

We've been to games where he played a hundred times better than this. And the fans are just like, what all of us were like, what is going on with this guy? And then you watch on the bench and he's just sitting straight ahead, just kind of staring. And the guys like, weren't even really trying to talk them or motivate them anymore.

They were just like, all right, he's something's going on. So the, maybe that, that would be, and I don't know enough. You could tell me, uh, is there an assistant coach on the Celtics staff that is the Tatum whisperer? And if you don't have that, you better get that. He's so much better than he played in that finals. I mean, what he did against Milwaukee. My dad asked me on the way home, he's like, do you think that series is going to haunt Tatum?

And we both decided no, he's only 24. It'll probably ultimately be the best thing that ever happened to him, right? This is how it works. Yeah. You need the reps. This is how we, you know, sized up the series. Like, is this extraordinary defense of the Celtics versus the experience of Golden State?

Well, so like Isaiah, who I think was obviously a better player than Tatum, but he had the steel, bird steel in 87. They blow game seven and that team, you know, then the next year he sprains his ankle in the finals. And it's just like these humps that you have to get over. And the best case scenario for this Tatum thing is just like, hey, you played 24 playoff games. You carried an incredible burden. You had to play two-way the whole time.

You went against Giannis and Durant and that crazy Miami team and then Golden State, having to worry about Curry switching around and you wore out. So what can you learn from this? The big thing I think he has to learn is just the 15-footers and the floaters. He just doesn't have that in his game.

They could be his friends. Think how important Curry's floater is. When you overplay him on the threes and he comes down the lane and he can score in seven different ways. Tatum. He has a choice. Tatum just doesn't have all the ways yet. So? For somebody who's like an incredible scorer, like average 30 a game after the

All-Star break. He has that step back. He has the Kobe step back. He has the Kobe turnaround. But yeah, right. It's time to start incorporating a little bit more. I think you're right. I mean, LeBron had LeBron was other than I mean, that's a good example, right? LeBron

was absolutely horrendous in the 2011 finals. So bad that we wondered, example, right? LeBron was absolutely horrendous in the 2011 finals. So bad that we wondered, wow, did we misjudge this guy as a superstar? Does he just not have it? And then he came back the next year and he was fucking awesome. They won two straight MVP. So it happens. Lots of people have had really bad series.

I personally was not expecting it from him. He really just had the deciding games and largely because I think Golden State figured him out. He was way worse than that. For this series, 21.5 points a game. Shot 36% field goal. Today it was 6 for 18. 5

turnovers. 0 free throws. That's the killer. He should be getting 10 free throws a game. Of course. That's this. I mean, we literally are sitting having this conversation,

me and Nate, while we're watching the game tonight. Get 100 turnovers for the playoffs. All time record. I asked my dad this when we were walking back. I was like,

would we have been a better off if that Butler three went in? No. Like for this team? Oh. No, and we have been better off if that Butler three went in? No. Like for this team? No. No, and we decided no. Okay, good. But that's how dark it got on the walk home.

We were like, were we better off if that Butler three went in? That's just because they gave out the trophy on your floor tonight. For the second time in the history of the Celtics. There you go. But we were like, was this finals ultimately productive for us? Or was it actually a bad thing? Come on. No.

Well, so what were the silver linings coming out of that series? The benches, Derek White, I mean, talk about. You really can't criticize. I don't think it's fair to criticize across the board. That was a very formidable foe in the form of Golden State. I'm just trying to figure out, what do I feel better

about than I did two weeks ago? I liked how Jalen played. He played in the finals. This is where we landed. It's a good thing Butler Street didn't go in. That experience will help us. There's no precedent for a team that started the season the way Boston started They were like, no, no, it's a good thing Butler Street didn't go in. That experience will help us. Being in the finals and losing.

There's no precedent for a team that started the season the way Boston started the season, going to the finals and having the success they had. It was a competitive finals. They should have been up three to one. So then I asked, the second piece of the question was, would it have been better for us if Butler Street went in, me and my dad? You're the old guys. Well, it's just like that would have been six games of just colonoscopy. Colonoscopy basketball.

My dad, at one point, my dad wasn't even like standing up when other people were standing up. He was just like, this team's broken. He was like Tatum. My dad was staring straight ahead like Tatum. It was very exciting. The first 12 to two was very exciting. Yeah, and then we had 10 points for like the next hour. It's aum. It was very exciting. The first 12 to 2 was very exciting. Yeah, and then we had 10 points for the next hour. It's a fact.

It is what happened. The Celtics bench, five points total. Yet another absolute stink bomb. So you got to get better at the bench. The three guys were minus 64. Pritchard, Grant Williams, and Derek White. Grant Williams, who's on the bench yelling at everybody, inspirational speeches and then he goes in the game, he's missing

threes and rebounds are just bouncing right over his head. It's like, maybe you're not the leader. Get a fucking rebound, Grant Williams. I'm not going to criticize Grant Williams. He's a bench guy. Jalen had 34 points, five turnovers. He's 24-7 and four for the series.

And would not let them-4 for the series. And would not let them go away down the stretch. So there's like, going back to the would we be better off if Butler's three had gone in.

I actually think, I feel better about Jalen after the finals. This is good. This is a good Jalen thing. I feel better about Rob Williams playing through pain. For sure.

I still don't know what this team needs because they clearly need something because over and over again in these series things slowing down and just how hard it was to get good possessions or good shots is it hurts the eyes to watch it's so fucking painful it hurts the eyes i just you know it that's the thing that that that causes you a little bit of a of your brain to go crazy because it's the nba finals like how are you there the ball is moving around the three-point line with guys catching it, jab step, hesitation, pass, jab step, dribble, dribble, try and turn and pass. If it's not turned over, the shot clock's running out and somebody has to make a decision on an ISO move. 22 turnovers at home after three days of we can't turn the ball over. You got to take care of the ball.

And then it would just fall apart again. Look, if you're going glass half full, maybe they shouldn't have been in the finals. If Middleton doesn't get hurt, Milwaukee, I think, would have beaten them. They beat every team in the East in front of them. Kudos. They could have lost and avoided the Nets. They didn't do that. Glass half full. Tatum's 24, Brown's 25. Smart's 28. Grant Williams, Robert Williams,

they have the nucleus. They have a huge trade exception. This is one of the things the Celtics owners are, and I think the answer is going to be they're going to spend the money but they have like a 16 and a half million dollar trade exception that they need like is it who is it is it Eric Gordon from Houston like yeah we'll take him here's the extra thing just is it Malik Beasley is it like who is it who is the guy that they can get who's one more guy who's a little bit like an instant offense for six, seven minutes kind of guy or some sort of wing or somebody with some toughness? I would want somebody that you're comfortable

can handle the ball. Or is it a point guard? Yes. Who is it? I think somebody that can initiate the offense, create some order in the offense. But you realize they traded a pick and then a pick swap in 27 for Derek White who was at the all time during the headlights, was fucking awesome for three weeks,

and then ended up during the headlights again. He's net positive. That trade propelled the Celtics into the finals. Got us in the finals. Exactly right. They're going to have to spend some money. That's a plus. They should spend some money.

They should. And they probably will. I'm going to use a little rebounding help, because I don't know if you can count on that level of performance out of Al Horford over a regular season. We saw it today with Grant. Grant had one rebound in 16 minutes.

The guys were just jumping over him. Need some rebounding help. And that's the thing. The reason to be skeptical about this team is Horford's a year older next year. Milwaukee's going to have all their guys back. I don't know what's going to happen with Philly. Chicago, who knows? Could they

trade Vucevic and somebody for Gobert and all of a sudden have kind of a kick-ass playoff team? Is that in play? Who's the other one? Miami? What if Miami ends up with fucking Donovan Mitchell? I don't know. Or Bradley Beal. Or Bradley Beal, whatever.

The Nets, what's going to happen with them Donovan Mitchell? I don't know. Or Bradley Beal. Or Bradley Beal, whatever. Yeah. The Nets, what's going to happen with them? I mean, you can't flat out dismiss Atlanta, I don't think. I think this was a window finals for both teams. The Warriors next year, the Clippers are back. Denver's going to be good. Memphis is good. Memphis will be a year older.

Dallas is starting to push up. Dallas, who knows? Dallas got Christian Wood. We'll see how that goes. But Golden State, I feel like, had to win this year. Celtics, I don't know if they had to win, but the East kind of broke nicely for them. It did break nicely.

They also kicked ass, though. You've got to be happy. Definitely. Okay, good. I don't know what happened to Tatum. I just don't understand it. Well, hopefully we'll hear an off season of floaters

and you know. If it comes out that he had like a separated shoulder or something, I will never have been as happy to hear about somebody's separated shoulder. Like he did? Thank God. I was just worried he melted down. It's tough though. And it's a good lesson.

Like maybe, maybe tone it down like just a tad when you haven't won anything yet. Like who? Who are you talking about? You felt like there was a little too much swag out there? The Kobe stuff was dropped a lot. Okay. It was inspirational to him.

He's not there. I love Tatum. I'll make up with him in my own head by tomorrow, but I'm just so- I'm glad to hear it. Oh, they said on Twitter the Dubs chanted fuck Draymond

after their finals win. That's fantastic. The entire Warriors locker room is chanting fuck you Draymond in the champagne celebration right now. That's hilarious.

It's really good. The team showed a lot of resolve, man. That game four, the crowd was nuts it felt like the Celtics were better and Curry had one of the legendary games now that's going to be remembered the way we remember

some of the great finals games right that game four will be one of those games you'll forever have that it happened to you on your floor. But you love Steph Curry.

You love Steph Curry. I do, but how many points did we end up with? 90? Under. Unders once again. Unders, unders, unders. Did we cover everything? I think we did. It was an awesome finals.

I'm going to need 48 more hours to decide whether I wish Butler's 3 had gone in. Because this hurts. We're going to make you tired. We're going to walk around the country club tomorrow. We're going to watch some golf. It's the US Open. Yeah, we're going to the US Open. It's Father's Day weekend.

I'm going to probably have some drinks. There we go. Yeah. We're going to have some hospitality tomorrow out on the golf course. Be able to heckle some golfers if you want. Will that make you feel better? You can yell at Phil Mickelson. I really love the Celtics team.

How many games did we play? Four, seven, seven, 18, 24 games over the span of nine and 10 weeks. And I needed vacation from just those possessions. When they had it within nine, and then it was just the classic, like Grant Williams just throwing the ball to the other team. And then the Horford losing out of bounds. And it was just, it was fucking Groundhog Day all the time.

This is the thing, man. This is... And this was... You have to also imagine that it was important for EMA to get this experience. Because the Celtics starts to the fourth quarters other than game one. Can I give you the play-by-play? It's 76-66 starting the fourth quarter.

We have the ball. Here are our plays. Draymond Green blocks Marcus Smart's seven-foot driving layup. Celtics rebound. Grant Williams, bad pass. Bad pass. Jordan Poole misses. Jalen Brown misses driving floating jump shot.

Jalen Brown misses tip shot. Clay misses the three. We have the ball again. Down 10, 10-30 left. Marcus Smart, bad pass. Bad pass. Peyton Dunk, smart drive and layup. Pool free throw.

Jalen Brown misses a 28-footer. Robert Williams misses the tip shot. It's just like the start and end of these quarters, they can never fucking figure it out. That's the sign of a young team. That's 100%. House, you're making me feel better. There we go. Tatum's fine.

Yeah. Tatum's fine. He had a separated shoulder. They should just say he had one, even if he didn't. I think it would help everybody. Every year that goes by that he's another year

since he went to Duke, that's also helpful. The Duke guy's got to get the Duke out of it. This will be a good experience for him. Yeah, because he finished with 100 turnovers, so you know people are going to make the Will Chamberlain holding the sign, 100 turnovers with Tatum's face superimposed. That's going to happen.

It is funny. He does deserve it. It's a point of emphasis. He was bad. It's a point of emphasis, Jason, for the summer. This is part of the process. That's right. If you want to be one of the greats. I mean, Kawhi, how many years was Kawhi was in the league? Eight years

and then the 2019 Raptors happened. Right? Tatum's been in the league five. Kawhi was the MVP of a final. No, but I'm saying as the best guy on a title team, it took Kawhi eight years. It took LeBron nine. Yeah, it takes that long.

The question is whether Tatum should even belong in the sentence with those guys. I think as a two-way player, he has it. I think he has the sense of the moment. He proved it. And I hope this was a learning experience for him. That's the best we can hope for. And I hope the Celtics spend a lot of money next year.

That's the best you can hope for. And I hope the Celtics spend a lot of money next year. That's the best you can hope for. Because the Warriors are clearly just going to spend $300, $350 billion a year on their team and they love winning titles. I just love being in a stadium where fans are going crazy

for the team. That was fun. The crowd was great, right? The crowd was so dying to just get involved in that game and then we would throw the ball off somebody's face. I mean, it's tough.

I don't know when the next time to hope for that is a Wizards fan. All right, House. Good times. Good times. Not really. Good times. Better times for you, I think. Good times.

This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Dylan Berkey and Steve Cerruti as well. I will be back on Sunday with Rosillo I'll be in better spirits I'm going to lead the podcast saying I'm fucking glad Jimmy Butler's three

didn't go in that was a great experience for the Boston Celtics thank God we're in the finals we paid laid the groundwork for a future run here and the whole thing

and kudos to you Steph Curry fucking great player I'm so one of the all-time greats a future run here in the whole thing. And kudos to you, Steph Curry. Fucking great player. I'm so... One of the all-time greats. As much as this finals hurts, I'm so happy that all my Steph Curry stock just...

Always new. Yeah. Always felt like this was going to be the outcome at some point. But unfortunately, it came at the expense of my team.

I'll see you on Sunday. On the wayside I'm a bruised son Never lost it I don't have to ever forget