The Bill Simmons Podcast - An MLB Funeral With JackO, Plus LL Cool J on Kobe vs. Magic, Rap History, and Creating the GOAT

Episode Date: June 17, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by his old friend JackO to discuss the grim outlook for the 2020 MLB season and the ESPN 30-for-30 'Long Gone Summer' (2:45). Then Bill is joined by Grammy-winning rapper, actor, and entrepreneur LL Cool J to discuss historical hip-hop, the Rock the Bells brand, Kobe Bryant, Lakers greats, the original GOAT, set stories from 'Any Given Sunday,' and more (44:13). Finally, in an excerpt from the 'Flying Coach' podcast, Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll talk with NBA champion and coach Doc Rivers about growing up in Chicago, dealing with racism, and sharing stories with the Clippers team during the Donald Sterling scandal (1:30:24). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast and the ringer podcast network brought to you by zip recruiter. As you know, things are a little bit up in the air for the upcoming football season. We don't know how many games we're going to have. We're not going to know if fans are in the stands, if they're going to be able to eat and drink anything, but some things remain certain like our presenting sponsors,

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ZipRecruiter.com slash work together. We're also brought to you by TheRer.com and the ringer podcast network where we are covering the return of the NBA. It is happening. Things are going, things were announced. We heard about, uh,

we heard about the hotel situation. Disney hotels grouped into three different places. Grand Destino is where the Bucks, Lakers, Raptors, Clippers, Celtics, Nuggets, Jazz, and Heat are going to be. And then Thunder 76ers, Rockets, Pacers, Mavs, Nets, Grizzlies, Magic at the Grand Floridian. And then stuck at the Yacht Club, whatever the hell that is,

Blazers, Kings, Pelicans, Spurs, Suns, Wizards. There's been a lot of stuff that's come out already about the rule book that they sent out. I'm sure we'll be covering it on the website and probably in the Ringer NBA show with KOC and Verno as well. Doesn't look like there's pets. Looks like 35 person parties for each team

and players can bring their own masseuse or chef or whatever, but that would count as one in 35. It's all fantastic. I'm just so excited that the NBA is going to be back. Coming up, we're going to talk to my buddy Jacko about the possible death of baseball, which is almost definitely going away for 2020,

and God knows what kind of shape it'll be in after that. And we're also going to talk about the McGuire and Sosa 30- 30, and then LL Cool J first time ever on this podcast. Even he wasn't even on my old ESPN podcast, a lot of stuff for him to talk about. And then at the tail end, we have a little excerpt of Doc Rivers on flying coach with Pete Carroll and Steve Kerr. They are only two podcasts left for those guys. That has been an awesome podcast. And this was really good. So I wanted you to hear that. It's all coming up first. Our friends from Pearl jam. All right. My buddy Jacko is on the line. We're going to say goodbye to baseball.

I mean, it's just unbelievable. I mean, every other sport, right? Every other sport has come up with a plan to deal with this horrific, unprecedented COVID situation that we're living through. Much more contact than baseball, right? And we'll agree every other sport, football, hockey, NBA, WNBA, certainly more contact than baseball. They've all been able to work out a plan where they can play and deal with everything that we're dealing with in this day and age. But baseball, America's pastime, the grand old game, cannot get its act together because they have chosen to

fight about their labor differences in these troubled times we're living in and will not see what we're all dealing with here and not give one inch either side in order to have a baseball season. On a sport that's already

has problems in terms of demographics ratings, etc and is already sort of teetering to have a baseball season on a sport that's already has problems in terms of demographics, ratings, et cetera, and is already sort of teetering. You would think they would have a more incentive than anybody else to say, let's work this out and let's play the freaking game. And they can't get their act together. It's outrageous and it's heartbreaking and it's unfathomable, really, except that it is because it's baseball. I would say it's completely fathomable. I'm not surprised at all. Once, once, once I saw that the union and the owners and the commissioner were kind of dug in on both sides, I was like, well, we've seen this act before. Right. You know, we, we know how this is going to play out. We know common sense will not prevail. And if I was, you know, I don't know who the alpha dog is on the owner commissioner side

because it's clearly not Rob Manfred. Can we call him the poor man's Gary Bettman now? I feel like we can. Absolutely. It's like if Gary Bettman and Roger Goodell had a kid and then dropped that kid on its head, it would be Rob Manfred, I think would be where we ended up. It doesn't seem like anybody on that side is looking around going, hey, fellas, this is like history at stake here. The 94, that whole thing is talked about in the most dismaying, sad tones, even all these years later, it's like, oh man, remember 94?

God, that was brutal. How'd we let that happen? And we're letting this happen again. So I, it almost seems like they don't care if it comes back. And that's the part that really shocks me. Well, the, I mean, the thing that's incredible really is you have a commissioner of a sport who doesn't really seem to be a fan of that sport because when he was, when he was talking about the Astros penalty for the garbage can banging and the sign stealing and and people were saying, well, you should have taken away their World Series trophy. And he's like, well, who cares? That's just a piece of metal.

Now, it's not the Stanley Cup in terms of reverence for the trophy itself, but it represents the championship of your sport. Like, guys work their whole lives, sweat and bleed and the whole thing as a player, as a manager, as a manager, as a coach, whatever, to get there to a World Series, to win a World Series. And for the commissioner of your sport to say, oh, that's just a piece of metal. Who cares? You're supposed to be like the cheerleader for your sport.

You're supposed to be the guy that loves the sport more than anybody else, theoretically. You're supposed to represent it on the national scene. And when you refer to it as just a piece of metal, that sort of says where your heart lies in terms of the game. So he just sees it as any other business. And he's now representing these owners. And you should never buy a sports team to make money, right? Every guy that's ever owned a sports team has said, you're not in it for the money. You're in it because of the cachet of owning a sports team, because you love sports, because of having that in your back pocket, you own a team, just go for a championship, the camaraderie. There's a lot of reasons to own it, but you

shouldn't own it to try to make money. And there's all these things leaking out about guys that now own baseball teams, and there's some number of them, six to eight apparently, who would rather not play the season because they're going to lose some money because they can't have fans, they can't sell tickets, they can't sell concessions. But the notion of owning a business or owning a product to not have it go forward in the season is just, I can't understand that. Why would you own a sports team and say, yeah, I own the Chicago White Sox. I'm just picking them at random. I'm not saying their owner is in that camp. But I own the Chicago White Sox, and I'd be, let's not play this year.

Like, why would you own that? Like, sell the team. Don't own it. If you can't make any money, if it's all about money for you, go buy a tech company. You know, go buy a steel company or whatever makes money.

You know, go buy a Starbucks franchise. Don't own a sports team if you're in it to make money. It's ridiculous. And, you know, I don't want to get all hokey here, but baseball means a lot to a lot of people. We're going through a tough time in this country now, you know, between COVID, between the situation with Black Lives Matter and the police and what have you. As a baseball, could they maybe come together and say, we have these labor problems. Can we put those aside until next year? And this year, let's like

take one for the team, so to speak. Like, let's just play the season. Let's work it out. The dollars will, you know, we'll figure it out and just play baseball to give Americans some, some kind of a distraction that they can all maybe get behind or, or, or something to watch. I mean, God almighty. It's just, it's ridiculous to me. Well, there's two points coming out of that. One is. Rosilla made this point. They're treating this like're treating this like well hey you know i don't want to lose money this year and it's like well guess what a lot of people are losing money this year look around like this is you chose to run a business the business you weren't guaranteed to make money every single year you ran that business and just because this is going to be a bad year for the business doesn't mean you just board up the store and that's it. You call it quits.

And you, who are wealthy enough to own a baseball team, are probably worth at least a billion dollars, if not several billion dollars. You can weather that store much more than a guy or person that owns some mom and pop grocery store that had a shutdown or a mom and pop hardware store or a restaurant or a bar that's living on the fringes. And they've had to shut down for three months and they've lost a lot of money and they can't take that hit in the same degree that you can. Oh, I've lost a couple of million bucks. It's not the same, you know, that you're going to pay your mortgage on several of your houses, you know, you're not going to have a problem with that. Whereas other people that have made enormous sacrifices in this tough time that we're all living through are going to face real problems

about paying the rent, getting groceries. I mean, can you have some sense of what other people in this country are going through and what you're going through in comparison? Well, that leads me to the second piece. Rich people are rich for a reason and hate losing money. And this was explained to me nine years ago when we were having the NBA lockout and these, and some of the owners were, it was like, Hey, eight of us are losing money or 10 of us.

I forget what the number is. And I found, I got the list of the teams that actually, you know, were under. And some of them were in the red by like 800,000 or, you know, 900,000, uh, a million, 1.1, whatever. And I'm like, these guys are acting like they're losing 40 million a year

unless they change the NBA rules. Like this is like nothing to them. And somebody said to me, rich guys don't care. They don't want to lose money. And if they own something and that thing lost $1.1 million, to them it feels like $110 million. And they're going to fix it until they can look at something and say, I'm not in the red. But here's the thing. Well, I don't know if this is necessarily the case for baseball as much as with a sport like basketball or football. But when you own those teams, whatever you paid, you get to write off all this shit. Right. In a lot of cases, the cities chip in for your stadium. Or outright buy it.

Right. Or chip in all this other stuff for your infrastructure. Taxes and everything else. Yeah. So you're making all this stuff. You're owning some asset that eventually you can sell. for your taxes and everything else yeah so you you're making all this stuff you're built you're owning some asset that eventually you can sell and when you sell it you get the full price of it you know that all that write-off stuff that was saving your ass year to year meanwhile you're

the thing is accruing value this this is why rich people love buying sports teams this is why they have always gone into it because that because the ego of it. So for baseball to be like, man, we, you know, to sport really matters to a lot of people. As you said, people are bummed out right now. They need distractions. They want to have, you know, some semblance of life back. And for them to look at that and go, ah, fuck it. Fuck those people. We'll see him in a year. It's bonkers. It's like out of, out of like a Jimmy Stewart movie from the forties or something. I mean, they probably think, well, we had the strike in 94. We took a hit, but we weathered the storm on that and baseball came back and, you know, attendance was through

the roof and maybe our ratings aren't the greatest, but we make a lot of money in attendance and what have you. So they figured out we weathered that storm. We can weather this one too. But I mean, this is a different time. It was one thing to have a strike and you're having labor issues and the union's fighting over what the union was fighting with you over. But this is a different time.

And so to do it during this time when a lot of people are hurting a lot worse than owners and players ever will be financially and just to argue about your usual arguments about things is just, it's just not the time, you know, no read the room a little bit here, like read the room of the country and just come together. Like put this aside until next year, next year, you want to have a labor fight. That's one thing, but like to nickel and dime and have your usual fights in this timeframe is, is not good from a PR perspective to say the least it's it's just outrageous

wouldn't you say that it's like one of the worst marriages like if the major league baseball the union and the owners were this wife and husband in your life you just be like oh you your wife's gone hey uh saturday night we're gonna go out to dinner with the mlb union and the owners you'd be like oh man all they're gonna do is fight the whole time fuck that this sucks they hate each other they should have got divorced 20 years ago it's always so tough you know for 100 years of the game the owners had 100 of the power the reserve clause players didn't have any say they couldn't there was no free agency there There was nothing else until Curt Flood. And ever since then, when they hired Marvin Miller, and now they have the strongest

union certainly of any sports league in the country. And now for the last 50 years, it's bounced in the other direction. So the players have all the juice from a union perspective. And so the owners, the players have the previous 100 years of bitterness. The owners have 50 years of bitterness. So it's completely toxic and just completely ugly. And the owners are counting on, you know, the fans looking at somebody like, you know, I was reading Garrett Cole and Garrett Cole is not necessarily militant union wise, but they just use his numbers for an example and something I read. So he's a guy that would make $35 million.

And if the owners get their way in terms of what they would pay the players, he'd make like $9 million. That's a big hit for him. He loses $26 million. That's real money. But to the average person who is dealing with all the troubles of the economy and everything, and they're like, oh, my God, this guy gets paid $9 million to play baseball. Just play baseball, you know?

So the owners are counting on people like automatically blame the players because they think all the players are spoiled. You know that you've left my team to become a free agent. You broke my heart. Now I now I'm going to look for some reason to dislike you. And now you're crying about only making nine million dollars. I'm trying to find a way to pay the rent. You know, the owners are counting on that.

But I think, you know, now I think the blame is going to be on both sides because these owners, the owners are not sympathetic to say the least. It's just awful on both sides. It's heartbreaking. I'm old enough that I should know better, but I read these things. And the notion of having a 48-game season or whatever is such a farce. When baseball, you know, can you play 100 games for the love of God so it has some semblance of being a real season? I mean, 48 games is a freaking joke. I was skeptical they'd ever figure it out

because once they pass about mid-May, and you really just start doing the math, you're like, all right, well, now we're under 100 games. There's no way this 100... Now it's like, so we're going to play an 80-game season? All right. Maybe I could talk. 80 I could talk myself into.

But spring training and how do you get guys ramped up? What are guys doing? Are guys staying in shape right now? Are guys throwing? It's really been – I mean, think about it. It's mid-June now. For some guys, if their season ended in, at the end of September last year, you're talking nine months since they've really played real baseball. Well, that's the

thing. And now, now you're talking injuries and everything else. Cause you're going to come back too soon. They don't have, and had a full spring training arms. Aren't stretched out. You know, the Yankees hamstring problems will rear their ugly head. You know, Stanton will be on out for the next three years with hamstring issues. So it's horrible all around. It's demoralizing. It's depressing. It's horrible. Stanton's not even in good enough shape to pull something.

Maybe it's good, actually. That might be better for him. He's like John Kruk. John Kruk never got injured. Stanton used to be in too good of a shape. So now maybe he's gone to seed and he'll be great this year. He won't get hurt. That's a good theory.

Stanton and Judge. Yeah, they're feeling great. They're like, we can start the season right now. It's like, yeah, because you're not lifting like a freaking man. Exactly. Maybe that's the key. Right. Exactly.

Well, there's another piece of this, though. And you're old enough to remember the 81 strike. Oh, yeah. Which sucked. Right. Remember that? It was was like what 50 50 days and it was just no baseball and we we had nothing going on it was like no internet no video games barely right um and then 94 was also just awful we had a lot less going on there too people a lot more people cared now Now I look at this where I just think like, like, guess what my son hasn't asked me about really at all over the last two months.

It's like, Hey dad, when's baseball coming back? Like he really only cared for the playoffs and for like the two Dodger games a year, I would take them to, or if we were back in Boston, he'd go to a Red Sox game with me and my dad or something. um i i think baseball should be alarmed that there's actually not more outrage and more of an outcry and an oh my god and what are we doing and right to me when you think about social media and especially like who's on social media and people 35 and under and the fact that those people for the most part, don't give a shit, right? That's more alarming than losing a season. Well, that's the thing. I mean, they're playing with fire and they're not playing from a strong position. Like they think they're in this,

this big position of like, somebody has to blink, but it's the America is not giving them any outside pressure to say like, Oh my God, you guys better get back to it. And they came out the other day and admitted, well, our season can't be too long because if we run into the NFL, we're going to get like murdered in the ratings because they're going to have playoff, you know, playoff baseball is going to lose to like a Panthers Jaguars game.

Right. Like week 13 or week 12 or something, you know? So they've as much as admitted, like we can't go in too late in the season because we're going to get killed. But there's the other wrinkle of this whole reset with the NBA might have allowed them to reconfigure what their schedule is too. And they'd always wondered about, hey, what if we start in December and we play all the

way through July? Right. And we basically try to avoid football as much as we can. We start the season on Christmas. Right. If they do that, now you'd have the basketball playoffs basically going all the way through the all-star break of baseball, right? And then right into football.

And there would only be like a month that baseball would have for itself. Be irrelevant. Right. They're so dumb. They're so dumb. Like the guys that own the teams are dumb. The players union is dumb. The commissioner is the dumbest person on the earth.

It's frightening. It's frightening. It's horrible. Well, I was thinking it really wasn't that long ago. Like the, the Red Sox Yankee rivalry that we love so much. Oh, eight to through. Oh, oh, eight through. Oh, four, basically. But then that Yankee run with Jeter from basically 96 to four and how, how important baseball

was in oh three, especially when like the Cubs were in there and the Red Sox Yankees. And it just felt like it just dominated everything. And we even had it for the most part. Think about like the first couple of years of my podcast, like the Oh nine you're on every week. We were talking about the Yankees and the playoffs and all that. And it was as relevant as anything going on. I, it doesn't seem like baseball has even been half as relevant since. And I was thinking about it watching that McGuire-Sosa doc, which we'll get into in a second, where you think everybody cared. Everybody cared about that chase.

Everybody cared about whether Bonds was going to get to 71 or not. And people care. It feels like more about baseball as a whole in October now. And the regular season just isn't as relevant to people that are under 35. And even for me, how long the game's got and just the grind and just the short attention, all the stuff we've talked about a million times, but I I'm really wondering where baseball fits in losing a whole season. If they can bounce back from it. No. And I mean, you know, that like that documentary and people have said before, you know, that home run chase kind of brought people back into baseball,

you know, casual fans that were like, well, you lost me with the strike and you're all greedy and you all suck. And now this home run thing, like, oh, is someone going to break Maris's record? And it's the day to day of that. He hit one. Did he hit one? You know, everybody was into it that, that brought it back. But like home runs now, now what we know about that chase and steroids in general and home runs into, you know, the juice baseballs and smaller parks and everything else. I'm not sure that the home run, any home run chase, like is going to bring that back. You know,

if judge next year goes on a tear and he's on a pace to hit 80, like, is anybody really going to get, you know, go crazy for that? Or, or trout is going to hit, you know,

is he going to have a hundred home runs? Like, would that bring people back? I don't know. Maybe make all performance and answer drugs legal again. I guess they're gonna have to right that's the way to win people back to the phil hartman sketch let's try to do it i uh it it's a series of baby steps that got us to this moment i think the playoff games lasting past

midnight for two generations of kids who either they were staying up till 12 30 at night all those yankees Red Sox games. We loved all of them ended after midnight. Every game is four hours. Right. So you have that, you have, you know,

that the social media standpoint, baseball just doesn't fit in the same way as some of these other sports do. The players just kind of less iconic guys in baseball for whatever reason than in basketball and football. And then the length of the games is the thing they just were never able to figure out. And it got worse and worse and worse. There was a really interesting, it was almost like a chart of just hits and strikeouts that I saw online about how it changed over the last 25 years. That was the other thing, too, where it just became every at-bat is feast or

famine, home or a strikeout. And all this stuff adds up. And then you talk about, you know, a lot of the teams that had the quote-unquote curses, they all kind of lifted the curse. The Red Sox did it. The Cubs did it. White Sox. I was just thinking about that.

Giants. Because you were talking about, like, you know, the rivalries and what's still relevant. And I'm like, you know, the Cubs did it. White Sox? I was just thinking about that. Giants? Because you were talking about the rivalries and what's still relevant. And I'm like, the Cubs won in 2016. So really, you have the Indians are really the only cursed team that hasn't won since the 50s or 48, I guess. So you're like- The Giants got rid of theirs? The Giants got rid of theirs.

So all the long, long long long time franchises lifted their kind of curses which was always a storyline year to year except for the indians which i guess because the calves won they kind of half lifted it but now now you almost have this new generation of teams that we grew up with that we saw win titles that are now kind of tortured like the Mets and Dodgers teams like that and uh and then you have like Mariners you have smaller you know smaller market franchises but I do think that sustained baseball in the in the first probably 15 years of this century was just that can they do it can it? And there was always at least one team involved and they kind of lost that too. So yeah, I don't know. I kind of went out of the balloon on that one, you know, like, Oh, the red sock. I get, I've been told the red socks won a world series.

I'm not sure about that, but I've been told that happened. So, um, uh, through a combination of therapy. Oh, four. Wow. Guess what? Get it. Guess what else we want, Johnny? The Mookie bets trade. I'm now in Betts trade. That's right. I'm now in on that trade. We finally won. Great trade. You got Verdugo and the other guys, and now he's going to re-sign with the Red Sox,

never having played a game for the Dodgers. Yeah, it's perfect. Brilliant trade. Kudos to the Red Sox front office. Well done. Who needed him? Yeah. And then that's another outcome of this, is you have the Dodgers,

the most tragic team in the last 10 years. Right. They, they get just completely hosed with that Astros sign stealing thing. They, they have most of the tough losses of the decade. And then the one year where it seems like the stars had finally aligned, they get Mookie for 30 cents on the dollar and they have one of the best teams anyway. And it's, and they're prohibitive favorites in my opinion. And now there's no season. And the fucking Astros, you know, people would have really been out for blood this year. And like, it would have been like,

sort of like Roman Coliseum, like booing every time they went somewhere, you know, players throwing at them. And now if you take the whole year off and everybody's had a year to kind of calm down and sort of forget about it, you know, in our quick-click generation and our society. Next year, you know, 2021, it's not going to be as much bad blood for the Astros. It sucks. It's just awful all around. It's horrific.

Well, maybe that's what they should do is just, instead of having a season, just have people throwing at the Astros. Yeah, I can get behind that. When they're leaving their house, just random strangers throwing snowballs at them or Super Bowls. Take that out, T-May. It's really sad. Did you ever think baseball could potentially die

in our lifetime? I mean, we always knew it might move to a different phase, but now I'm starting to wonder, like, holy shit, like, this actually could be a real catastrophe for them. Like, a legitimate might-not- never, might never be the same. Might be like, I don't know what happened to boxing to some degree. Well, I was just going to say, you know, like at one time in this country, you know, in the early 1900s, like baseball was the King and like boxing was number two,

like baseball, boxing, and horse racing. Yeah. Now, like, unless you're like really, you know, degenerate, basically, like you're not going to be in terms of gambling. You're not into horse racing. And boxing is a super niche sport because there was too many different divisions and too many different, you know, too many leagues or whatever, and too many weight classes and everything else. And they ruined that and watered it down. So you'd like, you know, if you went back in time and you're like, you know, in 2020,

boxing's not that big of a deal. People would be like, well, you're crazy. Everybody, the Friday night fights and everything else. It was a huge deal. So, I mean, you know, is it possible that could happen to baseball where it's relegated to a niche sport? No question. And, you know, the, you know, e-sports might surpass baseball. God help us. When you have no leadership at all in a professional sport, at some point it's going to die. And Bud Selig, who still loves doing his victory laps about his spin control of his reign, which is really when a lot of these problems started, they just have had bad leaders and people who don't get it and who don't seem to understand that it's in a real danger zone.

Quickly, that 30 for 30 about Maguire Sosa. I was half watching it and at some point it was like, is this going to be four hours? Why haven't they gotten to the steroids yet? And I looked at my cable guide and there was like 20 minutes left. And then I went on Twitter to see if, even though most of my timeline's muted at this point, if anyone I was finding, and you were on a rampage going, what the hell, there's 15 minutes left. How have they not addressed steroids yet in a McGuire-Sosa documentary? I got to say, I thought that was one of the most bizarre 30 for 30s ever, if not the most bizarre. I don't really understand how it happened. I mean, I did not go to the Columbia School of Journalism. I am no journalism expert. But if you

were going to tell the story of the 1998 home run race, and the word steroids is used like three times, and it's all in the final 14 minutes, I don't know what you're doing. How do you make that movie? I mean, I made a lot of jokes about like, you know, about it's like a two hour documentary about the Nixon presidency. And you mentioned Watergate and passing in the last 14 minutes. I mean, right. Steroids was a big part of that. Like we can't just that, that movie could have that 30 for 30 could have been made in December of 1998. And we all would have been like, oh, wow, that was really a great recap and McGuire and Sosa and whole country was behind it. And it was crazy, but it's not 1998, it's 2020.

And we've learned a lot in the 22 years since then. And to completely ignore it, I thought it was going to be like a behind the music, you know, from VH1 when they do like the first half of the documentary is the band's rise. And then about halfway through drugs kick in and then it's like, and then they hit the skids and somebody died and they lost their record contract. And so I was like, oh, okay, well it's two hours long. We're going to get into the steroids part in the second hour. And then they talked about, you know, McGuire with the Andro Steen Dion in his locker and they spent like two

minutes on it. Yeah. And the St. Louis beat writers were like, we didn't even know how to pronounce it or what it was like oh and then we just moved on from that i'm like wait what that was it like that was a big thing because he was using that as like masking a legal stair he used that he couldn't go down to the gnc and buy and that was completely ignored i my guess is that they wanted mcguire and sosa to participate and they needed mlb footage espn has a deal unfortunately i have too much knowledge of how this piece works but like if netflix did it they don't care about their relationship with the mlb they could just

fair use a lot of the mcguire sosa stuff and go to town but it's espn you got to keep the relationship and all that well because then what outraged me even more i and i usually would go to bed before this but i was so like flabbergasted by this and the way it was portrayed and all these that was like a love letter to mark mcguire from like the st louis beat writers and the beat writer one beat writer is like well we're all to blame it was all our fault i'm like what was it my fault that i fill up syringes for mark mcguire because i don't remember doing that in 1998 i don't think it was my fault it's not all our fault i didn't take steroids i didn't tell him to take steroids so i actually stayed up to watch sports center because they were like coming up next on sports center we have sammy sosa and bob costas coming up so i'm like i gotta watch this now

i'm not gonna throw him under the bus because i think he's a friend of the program but the sports center guy never touched on it. And he was like, Sammy, how did it feel? So I'm like, this is just like an ESPN like shill job of like, oh, what a magical moment in baseball history. But it wasn't a magical moment. They cheated. It was fraudulent.

And they're showing poor Roger Maris like smoking a carton of cigarettes from the pressure of breaking Babe Ruth's record play, you know, with challenging Mickey his hair's falling out and they're like oh what a wonderful and there these there's the Maris family well they didn't know it was fraudulent at the time well how about Maguire near the end was like yeah blah blah blah I'll just tell you I did I need it no and it's right when you took it you hit 70 homers you needed a little bit it might have helped a bit you hit nine more homers than anyone had ever done it i'm guessing whatever you were taking was was in there a little bit i just i thought they were usually when you do a doc like that you know one one of the moves is you have kind of the the dick on there

who's throwing somebody's darts yeah or maybe you have multiple bad guys but you have to have somebody on there at least pointing out like we're we're all watching this as it's happening going what's going on are the balls juiced or the are the players juiced i remember going to the 99 all star game and i sat in the bleachers for the home run derby and guys were hitting balls like over everything over lands down onto like the fucking mass pike and it was like well this is clearly abnormal i don't know what's happening but i i just think like some guys weren't doing it. And there's this whole code now of like, oh, you know, the guys who weren't doing it don't want to throw the other guys under the bus. But man, it was such a weird time.

And to do a doc about it, but not just spend most of the time talking about how weird it is now to look back on. I thought that was weird. And I figured like Bob Costas, who's like the pope of baseball. You know, he's a he's a, he's a, you know, the steward of the, of the history of the game. I thought he was going to come on there and be like, you know, this was really like scandalous. And these, it was a sacred record. You know, Ruth had it since 1927, Maris broke it. There was the whole thing about 162 games versus 154 and Ford Frick and the asterisk and all that stuff. This was a, that was a big deal. That was a big record.

That was like Lou Gehrig's streak. Those are big. Everybody knows 61 home runs, right? Everybody knows Lou Gehrig's, you know, 2131. Everybody knows those numbers. This was a big thing. And Bob Costas comes out and goes, Oh, it brought joy to St. Louis and the groundskeeper caught the ball and you couldn't make it up. Like, wow, what the fuck? They were fucking cheating.

Nobody's going to understand this, but are we going to have a 30 for 30 about Rosie Ruiz? Remember Rosie Ruiz who won the Boston Marathon out of nowhere? She was an unheard of runner and won the Boston Marathon.

It turns out she took the fucking T for half the race with the subway. Why don't we have a 30 for 30 that just celebrates her? Oh my God god this is this amateur runner won the boston marathon let's fucking celebrate that too let's have that 30 for 30 what an amazing fucking story everybody joy in boston fuck you she fucking cheated they fucking cheated what the fuck am i watching this is bullshit i'm heated again that that really

pissed me off i don't understand how journalistically you can make a documentary that just ignores what the hell happened. I would have had a lot of notes if I was still working on 30 for 30. And most of the notes would have been like, hey, can you make the last 14 minutes the last hour? Maybe more, more on the whole cheating, fan disappointment, fan being disillusioned. None of these guys making the Hall of Fame. And then it's like, oh, Mark McGuire made the Cardinals Hall of Fame. Well, congratulations. Guess what Hall of Fame he's never making is the real Hall of Fame.

And by the way, I'm on the record. I think all those guys should be in the Hall of Fame because I think most people are cheating. And I think it should just say it on the plaques because it's hard to think about the late 90s without thinking of Bonds and McGuire and Sosa and to pretend if the Hall of Fame is a museum to pretend that those guys don't belong in the museum even though they cheated. Right. I don't know what we're trying to do.

Just mention it. And like, you know, and a couple of times they would flash to Barry Bonds, you know, when the Cardinals were playing the Giants and they had some reference to steroids and they show Barry Bonds. I'm like, oh yeah, it's all Barry Bonds. He was the only one. Like let's put it on him because nobody likes Barry Bonds, you know, when the Cardinals were playing the Giants and they had some reference to steroids and they show Barry Bonds. I'm like, oh yeah, it's all Barry Bonds. He was the only one like let's put it on him because nobody likes Barry Bonds. Right. But McGuire, oh, he's beloved in

St. Louis and the best fans of baseball and all that horse shit. Get the fuck out of here. That really pissed me off. As America can tell, that really drove me nuts. If facts don't matter, ESPN can give me unlimited budget. I'll make a 30 for 30 about A-Rod where people will weep. And we'll just throw the facts out the window. And it'll be beautiful. It'll be wonderful about how much joy he brought me as a Yankee fan. Well, that should be, that's the sequel, right? The 2009 Yankees title.

And just at the tail end, just squeeze in there about he got suspended for a year. He's fine. A guy on Twitter, like a guy on Twitter said it's like doing one about oj simpson in the last 14 minutes you're like oh he had a few hiccups in his post-playing career but 2 000 yards great it was really buffalo they loved it god farce i'm sorry you didn't like it johnny yeah what are you gonna do and there was not there's no sports to watch so i was actually like oh this could be interesting baseball and i remember the 98 home run thing. I'll be into this documentary. Then I'm watching it. I just was like, I had my jaw open. I was like, wait, what? What? This is like a wistful thing. I just don't get it.

It's interesting. The ratings weren't good for it. And the ratings were also not good for the two-part Lance Armstrong doc, which was way better doc than uh the McGuire Sosa just because it was I mean nobody cares about the Tour de France in America you know I'm sure it was I didn't watch it I'm sure it was interesting but you know I think I think it's a different reason because Lance was really famous I just don't think people want to spend time with Lance Armstrong yeah that's probably part of the Sunday night are on a Sunday night like, oh, cool, I'm going to spend another two hours with Lance Armstrong, the guy who not only cheated but was

super belligerent about it and threatening to people. And it's like, probably not reliving that one. I mean, that's probably what helps McGuire and Sosa. Everybody says, well, Bonds is a scumbag because Bonds was an asshole to the press and came across as kind of surly

whereas Sammy Sosa was this lovable guy and he sprinted out to right field and he did the hand thing and all and people were like oh that guy seems fun you know like you know and of course he cheated twice because he also used a cork bat as it turns out so he was a he was a twofer on that one which again we didn't mention that in the documentary, but that coming out after the fact. We should pretend that didn't happen either. Crucial cameo and hardball by him too. Wave to the kids, the finger thing. So I don't know. That just really, that bothered me. That drove me nuts. All right. 30 seconds on Biden versus Trump. Well, it's not looking too good for Don at the moment. It's not looking too good for our incumbent president. Things can change in a minute, as we've seen

in politics lately. But his polling is not ideal at the moment. And Biden has really been helped, I think, by COVID to some degree, as terrible as that is to say. But the fact that he hasn't been out on the stump and stumbling or possibly screwinging up and he can be sort of like cloistered and very focused and scripted, it's been helpful for him. And Trump is never cloistered or scripted. So that's never helpful for him. So. Well, that's like Bakari Sellers was on this pod recently. He was great. And he was saying how with Biden, basically because of covid what you just said we only need three good hours from joe that's right he's basically like kurt kurt schilling in game six and oh four like kurt i just need six innings can you just get me 18 that's right that's right so with biden it's like can he just give us three hours on stage just right that's it

and you know and if your your opponent you know in this case trump is is making an ass of himself on a you know weekly basis like there's no point in biden doing anything like just let him trip up and like all i have to be is not trump basically and um and he can do that and be not trump the polling numbers are pretty alarming for uh for the don definitely it's like basically he's historically behind for an incumbent president so historically he and he will not pay attention to the polls because in 2016 you know they showed him behind behind hillary clinton at most points in the polling too so he's going to be like well the polls are rigged it's fake news yada yada so he's not going to

really do anything differently but one the polls are he's doing worse this year than he did four years ago, even against Hillary. And the final polls were basically accurate in terms of, you know, her winning by a couple points. And she did win the popular vote by, you know, two or three million votes. So the polling was accurate. It's the state polls are harder to do. And we, you know, the electoral college, but you know, places like Michigan where Trump surprisingly won four years ago, and I saw a poll today that said Biden beating him like 55 to 39 in Michigan. So that's trouble for him. In specific states that he has to win, he's doing historically poorly. Well, Trump can look forward to the 30 for 30 that just concentrates on the 2016 election. That's right.

The last 14 minutes just kind of dives into the charlottesville and the pandemic it stops in january of this year with like a great economy and a high stock market they're like and then and then he left after that that was then that some stuff happened right before before we got wanted to say goodbye to uh old classmate of ours who's on our on our hall at wheeler two freshman year andy derosier friend of ours who uh who sadly passed away a couple days ago and we were on a hall in college we were on the last co-ed hall at least from that era and it was just a bunch of people thrown together and he was one of them and And it's just, it's just been a weird, weird week. Somebody that, you know, I certainly haven't talked to in 20 years, but if I had run

into it, it would have been good to see him. Um, but just, just weird. Hey, we're getting old, Johnny. So a normal, a normal hall at Holy cross would be 60 guys, but because our hall was our, our hall was co-ed, it was cut in half. So it was just 30 guys. So we all got to be a lot closer than probably people did on a hall of 60 guys where you could kind of get lost in the shuffle did. So as you say, we didn't really hang out with him a ton, although he was very close with guys that we're close with,

live with some guys that we're friendly with who it's hit them hard. And it surprisingly hit me hard, too, because it's like I still even though I'm about to be 50, I consider myself fairly young. So I don't think like I should we should be in the part of our life where we're thinking about like friends of ours dying, you know, and it's kind of like it's geez, it was a slap in the face when I woke up on Sunday and saw those texts from our friend Nick Aida, who lived with him in college. And, you know, to see

that a guy that we, you know, we knew, like you say, like we weren't, I probably hadn't talked to him in 25 years, but like, if we saw each other tomorrow, we would like hit it off. Like we were still back in 1988 or whatever, you know, that's just the type of hall that we had. So it's, it's tough to deal with. And we're, we're too young to deal with that stuff. So certainly thoughts and prayers to his family and his loved ones. That sucks, man. Yeah, I think the craziest thing about college is you get thrown together with all these people and you're really not together with them for that long.

And you end up like ultimately there's going to be somewhere between three to seven people that you really stay close to. Right. And you might not see the other people at all, except for reunions. Maybe you talk to them on Facebook or there's some sort of text or whatever, but you might not see them ever. But if you ran into them, you spent all of this time crammed in the same place with them that you could pick up like you you just

saw them a week ago right and i think i've been thinking about it a lot because it's like that's somebody like literally we haven't talked to but i still feel like that whole experience was so intense like all those people are still in my life so i don't know well you know when i read the text it's funny and like you know after our freshman year we didn't we didn't live on the same hall with him. But like, I immediately thought of like 15 things that like happened with him freshman year, things he said or things we did or like experiences we had. And it's like, it's amazing that 32 years, 32 years later, that can all come rushing back. And you have those memories for somebody that you weren't necessarily that close with, but still had, you know, some moments in my life. And, and I guess I had some in his too, you know? So it's tough to see it's it's we're,

we're too young for that shit. So, uh, take care of yourself, Bill. I love you. You too, buddy.

It's always good to see you. Uh, and, uh, and to, uh, Nick and Jean and, and the bird man,

our buddies, uh, live with them and really love them. Yeah. Um, so anyway, just want to, want to and the Birdman, our buddies. Yeah, that live with them and really love them. Yeah. So anyway, just wanted to say that. Jacko, good to see you as always. And I'll talk to you soon. All right.

Take care, buddy. All right. LL Cool J coming up in one second. First, if you've been dealing with acne, redness, dark spots, or wrinkles, finding treatment that works can be complicated. You need skincare that actually performs, but getting started can be overwhelming. Thankfully, there is a solution. Roman makes it convenient to get customized prescription skincare

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Beverly Hills Cop, so much more. What do you remember about 1984? I just remember being a little kid with a dream, you know what I'm saying? Like a dream of, you know, taking my career to another level and allowing my voice

to be heard you know that was the main thing like wanting to hear my voice like wanting to not be a guy who just like dissolved and turned invisible in the hood you know what I mean like you know when you're

growing up in the hood you feel invisible you know what I'm saying like you feel like the world doesn't see you. At least that can be the effect. You know what I'm saying? You have to respond to that a certain way, which isn't easy. But the effects are like the world doesn't see you. So that was the goal for me to just not disappear, to let my voice be heard. You know what I'm saying? What's the biggest difference for you,

America in 2020 versus America in 1984? Social media. You know, pretty much everything else is basically the same. The only difference is a lot of things have been heightened because of social media. You know, a lot of things you see that would occur on a daily basis are now happening online. The bridge to dreams has changed.

Like whereas before, maybe it was like an off-road trail to your dreams. Now there are more bridges and tunnels and roads and highways and parkways and freeways to get to your dream. But it's still just as difficult. You know what I mean? It's still just as challenging. What's your role? I mean, you have such a signature voice. What's your role with the state America's in right now?

I think that, you know, I have to stand up for my people, right? You know, I don't want to see, you know, unarmed black men being killed for no reason. I don't want to see people, you know. You know, being being being put in that position, you know, I'm saying I think that I think most of America is better than that. And I think you have allowed, you know, you have a you know, you have a loud group of, you know, racists who are making it very difficult because they have leverage. Right. You know what I'm saying? And some of the racists who have leverage are really affecting the soul of this country in a bad way.

And I think that, you know, that morale issue is something that we really have to think about, you know, because, you know, the stock market could be at 40,000, but if the morale's in the toilet, what good does that do? Right. My friend Jalen Rose, who I think you know as well. Absolutely.

He was on ESPN a couple weeks ago talking about, you have this country that, especially the last 35 years, with music and sports, idolizes so many different black celebrities. And yet there's this dichotomy on the other side where they don't seem to care about, you know, the rights of some of these people and how they're being treated and all this stuff and how frustrating that is. Have you? Who doesn't care? Who doesn't care? Who doesn't care? Well, like what we had, what happened with George Floyd recently, where, you know, here's

another example coming on top of a couple other incidents and this happens and then finally people step up. Oh, you know what? I think that, you know, that's, that's activation energy, right? Like that fuse was lit, you know, many years ago. And I think the bomb finally went off because this was the, see, it's very difficult, you know, empathy. A lot of people empathize, but it's very difficult for them to put themselves in people's shoes if they never experienced something. If you've never been pulled over

by the police and felt like your life was in danger and you always felt like as a little girl or a little boy, you could go up to Mr. Officer and ask him for directions without getting asked for ID. Then it's kind of difficult to envision somebody to see somebody in that light. But now what you've seen is people have seen these bad cops and what they're capable of. And not only do they see what happened to George Floyd, but now they're seeing how people are dealing with the demonstrations. So, you know, I think that that's the issue. I think that, you know, empathy has a lot to do with that. Empathy and implicit bias, right? Because, you know, implicit bias can subconsciously or unconsciously stop someone from responding the way that we would hope they would to certain situations because they don't realize

they have bias. You know, that's why you'll hear people say silence equals violence. You know what I mean? Because, you know, there's a certain point when you got to step up. Like right now, I have to step up. You know, I have no choice. I have millions of people who follow me and listen to me. And I'm not going to leave them emotionally and spiritually abandoned at a time like this, because then that means that I'm not a real man. That just means that I'm a weasel that's only caring about a couple of dollars. When you were a kid, especially as you're trying to figure out what your voice was musically, what songs and what artists and what people who resonated with you, who shaped what you eventually became?

Who shaped what I eventually became is Who shaped what I eventually became? It's funny. You know, it was all early hip hop groups. I mean, that's why, you know, Rock the Bells is what it is. You know what I'm saying? That's why I created this platform, because it was the Treacherous Three and the Crash Crew and Africa Bambaataa and the Zulu Nation and the Fearless Four and, you know, the Cold Crush Brothers and the Fantastic Romantic Five, all these groups that most people listening to this podcast never heard of, right? And then the core hardcore hip hop fans have, though. But then, you know, and then came the

Run DMCs and the, you know, the rest of the guys that came after that. So that's the thing. For me, that really shaped and molded me. And then you had artists like Rick James and Michael Jackson and Prince and all of those other artists that were just part of the collective zeitgeist. So they affected me on some levels. But from a hip-hop standpoint, it was all the founders. You know what I mean? When you look back at that generation

It reminds me a little bit of the NBA The first, I don't know, 25, 30 years And even stuff like You know, growing up Knowing about Dr. J He's not on TV Seems like he'd be awesome But it's almost like the myth of it and just what you heard and hearsay and then some clips and things like that.

And then it paves the way for Bird of Magic and eventually Jordan. I think all the stuff that happened in the 80s paved the way for how it blows up in the 90s. You must feel some sort of ownership over that whole thing, right? Well, I do. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. Look, the reason why I created Rock the Bells, the reason why I created this platform,

the whole idea behind it is the fact that, you know, there wasn't a preeminent global voice for the classic hip-hop and the classic hip-hop community, right? I wanted a place where you could go learn the equivalent of the Dr. J story. You could learn the equivalent of the bird, you know, magic story. You can learn the equivalent of all of that, you know, metaphorically speaking on rock the bells. That's why. And also what was important to me is look,

you know, generation X has forgotten. It's almost like we're like the lost middle child, right? It's either everybody's, it's either okay, boomer or millennial, millennial. Obviously we can relate as Gen X to Gen Z because most of us, Gen Xs, Gen Z are kids for most, for a lot of us, right? For many of us. Some have millennials, of course, but a lot of us have Gen X, I mean, Gen Z z kids so it's kind of like we're in this situation where it's like you know i said you know what you know i did the i did the channel i did the radio station and i started discovering like wow like yo this this is a real thing like you know this this audience this customer this generation feels like they're

missing out on something they They love this culture. And a lot of them want to learn even more about it. Some of them aren't day one fans, but they grew up with it casually and they would love to be immersed in it. They would love to be like a fly on the wall and go deep, take a deep dive into classic and timeless hip hop culture. So what I said was, you know what, I'm going to build a platform that looks at the culture through a modern lens and really lift up these artists. Why can't artists like, you know, Rakim or Nas be celebrated the same way Bob Dylan is? It's just a matter of someone taking ownership. It's a matter of someone caring enough about it. Because you got to remember, you know, classic hip hop for Generation X, that's like our classic rock for the baby boomers. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? So classic hip hop for us, like, you know, Run DMC and Eric B. and Rakim and Public Enemy are our Rolling Stones and our, you know what I mean? That's our version of that. So I felt like we had to have a place

where people could really delve into the entire ecosystem. So it's not just about rap music per se. It's about the entire culture. I want you to be able to buy, you can buy books there. You know, hip hop is big on hustling, big on strategy. So you can have a rich you know hip-hop is big on hustling big on strategy so you can have a rich dad poor dad and the art of war is available there in books hip-hop is a lot about fashion but you can get everything from you know affordable you know everyday items to like luxury premium brands you know i'm saying because that's what hip-hop is it goes from the corners to the private jets right every rap artist is not on the cover of Forbes. Some guys are just making it. So it really has that bandwidth. And I think by creating this platform, I'm also most importantly lifting up the people that have

ownership in the platform. I'm lifting up Run DMC. I'm lifting up Eric B. and Rakim. I'm lifting up Crazy Legs, the B-Boy and Breaker, Risk, the graffiti artist, Fab Five Freddy, who took, you know, hip-hop from uptown and brought it downtown. You know, there is no Blondie

rapping on, you know, on Rapture without Fab Five Freddy. You know? You know, there is no Basquiat in the Blondie video behind the turntables if Fab Five Freddy doesn't bring Basquiat to the video shoot because Grandmaster Flash didn't show up. So these are the things in the stories that you hear about. Roxanne Chanté having ownership, Big Daddy Kane having ownership. And the reason why I gave and wanted to make sure that not only did I have strategic investors who put money into the platform, but I wanted to make sure that the people who really pioneered the game finally had an opportunity to capture some value.

So guess what? When you support rockthebells.com and you buy something, yes, we do affiliate deals. We have deals with Amazon, deals with different people for sure. But when you do when you spend money on rockabills.com for the first time, the actual pioneers who actually helped pave the way for the culture are actually capturing some of that value. So, so, so, so, so it's the equivalent of Dr. J. Finally, you know what I'm saying? Getting in, getting part of the TV deals. Right.

Because he helped build the league. I think that classic rock example is a really good point. Because when that Sirius channel... What year did that happen? I did Rock the Bells on SiriusXM channel 43. We did it about two years ago.

Yeah. And there was another channel that they had had before that. But I always liked... Sirius does a good job sometimes with eras. And you're another channel that they had had before that, but I was like, Sirius does a good job sometimes with eras and you're just like, I'm going to this era. And as my son really started getting this stuff, that was one of the channels, you know, we're listening to. And he, his, he thinks like basically rap started with Tupac and Biggie and all those guys in it. But then he eventually learned that no, actually there was another 15 years before those guys. Exactly. And that's the point, right? The point is to, I don't want what, I want to make sure that two or 300 years from now,

people get the story right. You know, you know, this podcast is going to play way beyond us. And it's like, so you got to make sure that the narrative is right. I want your son, when your son looks at it, yeah, Tupac and Biggie are two of our greatest artists, but he should also know about Big Daddy Kane and Rakim and know about Grandmaster Kaz and really know, you know, be smart and know the history. You know what I mean?

You know what really helped was the MJ documentary. There you go. And Jason Hare, who directed it, who I actually did a project with before that, he really tried to be era-specific where he's showing the footage and trying to get the corresponding song for that thing. And not only did it really work,

but it was a fun trip down memory lane. And you really think like the music and sports in a lot of ways were so aligned as that went, especially in the eighties with the NBA. Cause the NBA was still, you know, it's romanticized now, but it, you know, it was, they weren't even showing live finals games fully until 1984. And that was right when everything's taken off for, for music and hip hop. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know,

he connected with the Gen X and he connected with people who had that OG mindset. You know, my song, I'm bad. I licensed. I'm bad for you, for the for MJ's, for that, for the last dance, for the 63 point game in Boston. I mean, it's unbelievable how great classic hip hop can be and i think that you know and what we've been what we've finally broken through the barrier that i believe that rock the bells has broken and that i've you know um helped to overcome is this idea of relevance because for there was a few minutes for a few minutes about five to maybe eight years ago it just felt like if you were a hip hop artist but you weren't at the top of today's charts you didn't mean anything You were kind of treated like a pop, like, like a boy band, right? Like no disrespect to the boy bands, but some of them kind of get marginalized a little bit on certain levels. You know what I'm

saying? It's like, you're the hot thing of the moment. But as soon as you turn 35, all of a sudden it's like, whatever, you know, unless you're JT, you know what I mean? So it's like, I felt like that was the road that hip-hop was going down and I didn't want to see that happen because we have some really great artists and some truly great you know poets in the game you know and I believe they should be celebrated well other than a ton of hits and a ton of successful albums you You were, would you say you were the first person in rap beef? Do you think you? Oh, no.

You were the, I wasn't the first. Like a major, a major one, I'm saying. Like, like one that was publicly dissected

in a real way. The one with Kumo D. Yeah, I think that that was part of it. I think that was, I mean, Kumo D had, had a thing with Busy B

before that and the Cold Crush had things they, against the Fantastic Five, Fantastic Romantic Five. And it was a lot of, you know, beats. I mean, beats that went back and forth. But yeah, you know, me and Moe D was definitely heavily publicized at the time. It was probably the first modern era, you know what I'm saying? Classic, timeless hip-hop beef.

Did you know in the moment that this was actually weirdly helpful to both of you? No, no. I mean, when you look at history, it's like, you know, all of the great kings feel like they have to have a victory in battle in order to secure their name and, you know, and have a shot at glory. Right. So, you know, there's that. But no, I was just, you know, a little kid that wanted to defend his hip-hop territory,

so to speak, in my reputation as an MC, you know, and as a real guy of the culture. No different from, you know, two guitar players just, you know, playing solos back and forth because they're just not having it. Like, you know, they're on stage and they're going crazy. You know what I mean? You know, it's no different.

As you watch that kind of blow up in the 90s, did you feel like this was headed toward a dent and then all of a sudden Tupac dies, Biggie dies? Did you feel like, oh shit, this is actually going in a direction that we're going too far now i see what

you're saying you know it's interesting um i would say this i would say that i think i think the media at the time um you know uh media that was covering hip-hop at the time just made a decision that beef sells kind of like sex. So I think that because of that, it kind of attached to the, you know, it was attached to the hip hop boat, like barnacles. You know what I'm saying? That makes sense. He threw a magnet on hip hop's refrigerator and said, beef is the thing. That wasn't really about hip hop. That was more about two guys that had a problem with each other.

Right. You understand what I'm saying? And they had hip hop artists. Like, so, you know, you know, it's,

it's, it's a really interesting thing. Um, the ability to make finer distinctions, you know, if, um, you know,

if, if, if two politicians getting a fight in the elevator, because one of the guys said something to the other guy's wife that he didn't like, is that politics? I don't know. Could be. It doesn't have to be. Would we treat it like it's political? Yes, probably. So I think that, you know, Pac and Big just had problems as individuals. And then, you know, hip hop kind of got caught up in that because the media found an angle that was interesting. Right. Like when you find angles that are interesting and you run with them, you run with that narrative, that kind of that's what happens. And I think at the time vibe magazine was kind of probably really pushing that heavy you know i mean what's your looking back all these years later what's the album you're

the most proud of you know what i'm proud of my body of work um like look you know my favorite song was doing it and uh you know i i i thought that my second album, Bigger and Defer, was a real victory for me because it was my sophomore album. And, you know, I did had to do the project without Rick Rubin and didn't know what was going to happen. And it was really huge and big. And so that was a victory for me. But, you know, I'm excited about my body of work. And I think the body of work. Look, that's the whole point of this whole thing. Right. Like, you know, and I keep going back to rock the bells, but I have to. The whole point of this is that I want to celebrate classic hip hop culture. As a genre, as a movement, you know what I'm saying?

As an ecosystem and really lift it up and give the whole world a way in, you know what I'm saying? And teach people, you know what I'm saying? And let them learn and let them be excited. So, you know, it's always about the collective for me at this point. Let's take a break to talk about Full Sail University's Dan Patrick School of Sportscasting. Legendary sportscaster, Dan Patrick. You know him from the Dan Patrick School of Sportscasting. Legendary sportscaster Dan Patrick. You know him from the Dan Patrick Show, Sunday Night Football, the Olympics Sports Center. Being a guest on this show and for my fateful appearance on his show on May 7, 2015. He's teamed up with Full Sail University to offer an accelerated bachelor's degree in sportscasting.

Full Sail University combines hands-on learning, immersive projects, and faculty with real-world experience to prepare students for life in the media industry. And they brought in some of sports media's best to be part of this program, including longtime ESPN producer, multi-Emmy winner, and my good friend in my wedding party, Gus Ramsey. He's heading up the program. Sportscasting pros such as Sage Steele, Jay Harris, Kevin Negande, many more involved. I recently talked to a whole bunch of students on Zoom for a long time. Had a great time. Gus has been doing that, bringing in all kinds of people to talk to the students since they obviously can't have classes. But they're teaching people about

inside and out, camera, behind the camera, podcasting, radio, interviewing, everything in between. At Full Sail University's Dan Patrick School of Sportscasting, you can earn a bachelor's degree in about half the time, as short as 20 months. And you can choose to earn your degree online or on Full Sail's campus in Orlando, Florida. To learn more about Full Sail, go to fullsail.edu. Bill Simmons, and you can find out all about Full Sail University'sU slash Bill Simmons. And you can find out all about Full Sail University's Dan Patrick School of Sportscasting. Back to LL Cool J.

So you and I are natural enemies because you're a Yankees fan or a Lakers fan. You're hilarious. I'm a Boston fan. So we're just designed not to like each other. Okay. We can still have a beer. It's all good.

But the Lakers, there was a story a couple months ago that you talked Kobe out of doing a gangster rap album. Can you explain what the hell happened with that? Because I was stunned by that. Yeah. I had a television show in the house, and it was a sitcom I did with Debbie. Oh, I remember. Yeah.

Yeah, by Quincy Jones and David Salzman. Who were you in the Raiders? I was a former L.A. Raider. Former Raider, yeah. Marion Hill, yeah. So Kobe and Derek Fisher, when Kobe was a rookie, he came on the show, and they did a guest appearance. You can find the footage. It's funny.

We had a great time. We was talking crazy. It was hilarious. But during the course of filming, he was like, yo, I want to let you hear my album. I did some music, blah, blah, blah. So we go out and sit in this car, and he's playing these gangster rap records, right? Now, you got to remember, this is probably 90s. What was that?

What was it? Ninety-seven range. Ninety-seven. Yeah, like 97, right? Now, you got to remember, this is probably 90... What was it? 97? 97 range. Yeah, like 97. Right? So, I had started in 84. You know what I'm saying? So, I've been in the game a while at this point. So, you know, I'm sitting there and I'm listening to these records and it's

MF this and F that and I'm doing this and I'm doing that and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, I'm like, yo, yo, I said, yo, Cole, man, you just saying what you need to be doing, baby. What do you mean? I said, listen, man, you're an athlete, man. I said, I'm a rapper. I can say all that, man. But that's not, that's not, the rules are different for you. At that point, it was different. See now with social media, you couldn't, the gatekeepers probably wouldn't have the same controls that they used to have. But at that time, if he would have said something out of pocket, that could have really hurt his career in a bad way. Like people often compare Jordan

to LeBron in that regard, but what they don't realize is the context of the times. Mike couldn't, there were certain things that Mike probably wouldn't have been able to say that would have really went left for him. He said some of the things that LeBron says. It was just a really different time. It doesn't mean that he couldn't have had the courage to say it, you know, but at the same time, you see what happened with Ali's career. You see what happened with the, you know, different civil rights leaders over the years when they spoke out. Doesn't mean that it's not worth speaking out. I'm just saying it was a different time. So I just was telling Kobe like, yo, that gangster, that's not what you want to do. And, you know, ultimately, you know, it seems like he took my advice. The album never came out. You know what I mean?

And when you look at it, and then I remember like, you know, Allen Iverson, who's an unbelievable player who I love, he had dropped some music. And I remember that there was a big firestorm around that. Stern got mad. Yeah, David Stern was pissed. This is what I'm saying. So, you know, and, you know, AI is one of my favorites.

But I'm just saying, like, I told Kobe, like, that's not going. He was like, ugh. And he kind of acknowledged. But then it never just saying like, I told Colby, like, that's not going, he was like, and he kind of acknowledged and, but then it never came out. So he, I guess he listened. That was such a fascinating decade for the league because, you know,

you had in the fab five and college basketball, they're pushing the envelope. Then in the NBA, Iverson shows up. He's completely different kind of superstar than the league ever had. And there's a certain demographic of NBA fan who is like, what's going on

here? That goes back to implicit bias, right? You don't think you feel something, but then when you see a black guy with a do-rag on or a hoodie on, you associate that with a certain type of behavior, and it's not the case. You know what I'm saying? I don't dress any different than, you know, guys I grew up with. You know, some of my, you know, I might have a couple of shirts

that cost a little more here and there, but you know, it is what it is. Like AI was dressing like any kid on the street. But if you don't understand those kids and the mindset, then you're not, you know, you're judging. He was judged wrong. I think, you know what I'm saying? Be able to dress the way you want to dress. I understand that. Look, you know, dress codes and all that. I get it. But AI wasn't like, you just have some people who don't understand that just because a black man has a do rag on or some gold chains, that doesn't mean he's a gangbanger. You know, it's kind of like, it's like that little joke that, you know,

white guys have a tendency to make when you take pictures of them. You know, oh, is that a gang sign? You know, it's like that little joke. It's like, you feel me? Yeah, well, I mean, I'm sure that's why Kobe felt like I gotta make this album. It was just a weird time

for the week. He probably was just inspired to make it. It's the truth in his life but the issue is that you know we have to have the ability i think to understand people have different truths yeah you know and you know you have to be able to accept the person's truth and that doesn't you know you know just because you you have a you know baseball hat on backwards or a gold chain doesn't mean that, you know, you out to hurt people. You know what I mean? Were you friends with him? With who?

Kobe. We were associates. You know, we didn't hang out on a regular basis like that. No, I did see him. The last time I saw him was at, may he rest in peace and power, was at the Michelle Obama thing that she did at the Staples Center. When she was at the lecture thing, that she did at the Staples Center when she was the lecture thing. I saw him about a book and I saw him in the basement and we talked about getting together and going to dinner and, you know, stuff like that. But, you know, that didn't happen. But,

you know, that was a tremendous loss. I mean, he was one of my favorites ever. You know what I mean? I definitely shed a tear on that on that day. You know what I'm saying? Like it really affected me. You know what I mean? Who do you have for greatest Laker of all time? Laker? Yeah, Laker. Wow. And it can't just be somebody who passed through the team

but happened to be also great in his career. It has to be like, who is the greatest Laker? You know, I got to say, in terms of just overall impact, I would probably have to give that to Magic. Me too. You know what I'm saying I would probably have to give that to magic. Me too. You know what I'm saying? I would, I would have to give that to magic, but I tell you,

Kobe is he's right there. But the difference is that magic not only did what he did with five rings, but he took, he, he actually, I mean, you could argue that Kareem did it to a certain extent, but magic really made the Lakers brand. Like he, he, Showtime really made the Lakers brand. Like, he, Showtime really took the, you know, him worthy, but he really made that brand

what it is. So I would, only because he made the brand what it is, I would have to give it to Magic. So, I worked with him one year on NBA Countdown, which was really fun. Got to know him a little bit. You know him. One of my favorite magic things is

every summer he goes away on these crazy trips and then he does social media about it. Instagram and I'm on this island in Italy and all this. You've been on this trip. You've gone. 100%. It was unbelievable. I mean, it was the best trip in the world. You know what I'm saying? It was a lot

of fun. It was a lot of positive energy. A lot of positive talks. Very uplifting. Sam Jackson, a lot of Sam Jackson. Well, no, Sam, Sam came later. He went later. But with me, I mean, you know, we had, you know, Rodney Peet was out there and magic and, you know, my man, Kevin Liles and Frank Cooper and just, you know, it was unbelievable, man. The vibe, the energy, you know, it was unbelievable, man.

The vibe, the energy, it was amazing. It was magical. You know what I mean? And a gigantic boat. Yeah, we had a big boat and all that. But, you know, listen, man, I know, you know, look, you know, it's all relative, right? Like, you know, you can have the – look, I've been on the biggest jets and all that, and I've also been in a barbershop.

And guess what? You know, when you laugh, you laugh. And when you happy, you happy. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it wasn't really about like, yo, we want to boat and we want to like, you know, stunt on people or rub it in people's faces.

It was more about just, we live in a world now where, you know, we just, you know, like home videos, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, we just, you know, like home videos, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, you know, and it was just fun and dope and, you know, it was crazy. You know what I'm saying? It was like, it was like living like James Bond for, you know, a month or something. It was, you know, that's cool. Right. Like, you know, I'm a kid, you know, came from Queens, you know, I'm from, I'm from the hood. Like, you know, I mean, you know, What kid don't want to? Who wouldn't want to do that?

We want to live our best lives. That's what it's about. Yeah, I had a ball with it. No doubt. What was the best Laker game you ever went to? Best Laker game? I don't even think I can think of it that way. I think the most memorable Laker game for

me is completely separate from what anybody would think. It was a game when I saw when Colby was still a six man and they were pulling him out of the game really quickly. Like he would go in, he would get some really quick minutes and they would pull them out. And one time they pulled them out and he was getting ready to start beefing with the coach. And I looked at him and I was like, and he like, you know, he went and sat down, you know, and it's so funny to me because it went from me kind of being like his big

brother mentor to like sitting next to him on the bench. And he would like look straight ahead, you know, when he doesn't talk to anybody. And it was like, I was, I just remember saying to myself like, wow, like, yo, he really turned into a grown man and a champion. Because when I met him, he was a little kid. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

He was 17 when he got drafted. Yeah. Think about that. Like, the way, you know, when he did the tattoo, that was like, for me, that was like, you know, just seeing the similarities. Because most people don't notice that. But when you think about the similarities, you know what I'm saying? And you think about like, I just like was watching him and just, you know, I was really, he really impressed me as a human being. Like watching him grow to become the champion he became, you know, the man he became, the

father he became, the athlete he became, like, not became, but the champion athlete that he became was just unbelievable. Two movie questions for you. No. Halloween H2O or Deep Blue Sea? Deep Blue Sea. No doubt about it. Love Jamie Lee Curtis.

All good. We ate barbecue together on the set with Deep Blue Sea. Hilarious, man. You ate my bird and all that. Like, look, I try to have fun with the career. You know, try to, you know, keep it grounded, of course, you know, keep my feet on the ground, you know, maintain my

mental dexterity and strength. But yeah, Deep Blue Sea was dope. That's got, that's actually gained steam as a cult cable classic. It's on all the time, which means people are watching it because they wouldn't show it if people weren't actually watching it.

But it's got a great death scene. I won't spoil it if somebody hasn't seen it yet, but there's a shocking death scene right in the middle that's like, oh, my God, what just happened? But it's a good one. We do this podcast on The Ringer called The Rewatchables where we break down movies that we've seen a million times. One of the first ones we did was Any Given Sunday, which I know you've been asked seen a million times. One of the first ones we did was Any Given Sunday. Okay. Which I know you've been asked about a million times. And even though Oliver Stone gets a little carried away with some of the cuts and whatever,

I still think there's so many good things in that movie. And really a classic Pacino performance too. But then one of the parts of the podcast is we try to figure out, we call it half-assed internet research. What's real, what's not one of the parts of the of the podcast is we try to figure out we call it half-assed internet research what's real what's not real about the stuff in the movie there's so many different different versions of whatever happened with you and jamie fox even like wait because you guys definitely had a fight did you have a fight on the sideline or in the locker room no we had a fight on we had a fight on the sideline. And, you know, at the time, you know, I was,

you know, method acting and really in character and kind of, you know, being aggressive with Jamie in the scenes, but not trying to hurt him, but just like, you know, hitting his shoulder pads and talking. And he said, look, man, he said, you know, for whatever reason, he I think he thought, you know, Jamie thought that he thought that I was being serious or something, but I was acting. Yeah. You know, I guess for what it, you know, he got ticked off and thought it was, you know, a good idea to punch me in my face. You know what I mean? And I disagreed. So that was it. You started going at it. But were they filming or was it rehearsal? I disagreed wholeheartedly.

Did they put it in the movie or they put in a slice of it or they kept that out? Some of the like back and forth maybe, but none of the real stuff because the real stuff cleared the whole sidelines because it was, you know. Oh, so it was bad. It was like a brawl. Well, it lasted. Oh, so it was bad. It was like a brawl. Well, it lasted. Oh, so you won. Was it a 10-8? 10-8 round or a 10-9 round?

Yo, Larry, look. I got love for Jamie. I ain't going to do that to him now, man. Well, you guys are friends now. It was a tie. You guys are friends now. No question. No question. That's why I don't want to get up here and, you know, I don't want to blame him like that. It's all love.

It's all love. He punched me. It was a tie. And then in the locker room, you guys, your characters had another fight, but that one was not a real, that was a movie fight. Yeah, yeah. Definitely not. I think the craziest thing about that thing was,

you know, my character, Julian, I believe his name, was he had this thing where he was sniffing cocaine. I had this scene where I was supposed to be sniffing cocaine. When they do that, they use antihistamines instead of cocaine.

Yeah. But if you sniff enough antihistamine, you still You're still feeling it. Yo, Oliver had me laughing. of cocaine. Yeah. But if you sniff enough antihistamine, you still... You're still feeling it. Yo, Oliver had me like... It's like, yo, we did like 30 takes of this shit. I'm sniffing antihistamine.

Yo, Oliver, you're killing me, bro. This dude was like... Yo, Oliver is hilarious, man. What running back did you model your character after? Did you study NFL running? Were you more Emmitt after? Did you study NFL running? Were you more Emmitt Smith? Was it Marshall Falk?

No, it was more. Well, you're thinking about size and all that. Well, not even size. You're thinking about style. But my favorite was actually Tony Dorsett. That's why I wore 33. Okay. I wore 33 because of Tony Dorsett.

And we got to play in Dallas in the stadium. You know, there at that time. That was unbelievable. The Dallas stadium at the time. So, yeah, it was more Dorsett. What do you remember about Pacino? Really, really brilliant. Really smart.

Hung out with him. Went over his house. You know, we watched the Riddick Bowe. I mean, we watched the, I want to say, is the Riddick bow. I mean, we watched the, I want to say, is it, is it, is it Riddick,

Bonnie, Vanda three, or was it Lennox? And he, I want to say it was both. It was one of those. I bet it was Bo Holyfield three. Yeah.

That makes sense. Two or three, one or the other. And, um, we watched that at his house, you know, you know,

you watch a, you watch a pay-per-view at Pacino's house? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We hung out, watched the fight and all that. Wow. Yeah. He's like, LL, want to see if you want to come over? No, I'm trying to do a Pacino.

He's talking to Oliver Stone. You know, he's like, Ollie, you might like it. And I was like, no, don't direct yourself. I like what I do. Don't direct yourself. It was crazy I do. Don't direct yourself. It was crazy. You know what I'm saying? It was a lot of fun, Norman.

A lot of fun. Before we go, I have to ask you one NICS LA question. All right. My dad. Yeah. Huge fan. Yeah. Huge fan.

He's very, he's still recovering from, he says Granger's death, but the real guy, Miguel Ferrer. Yeah. Huge fan. He's very, he's still recovering from, he says Granger's death, but the real guy, Miguel Ferrer. Yeah. He died in real life, but his question for you was, how did that affect the show? Well, Granger, you know, Miguel, I always called him the coolest guy I ever met in my life.

I mean, this guy, his voice, his demeanor, he was so cool, man. Like, I don't think I've ever met somebody that was just that, like, such a charming, cool dude. Like, you know, it was so funny. I remember, like, me, I'm not great with horses. Like, you know, nobody's perfect, right? Like, I get around them horses. I don't really feel comfortable. I don't really like horses like that.

Yeah. Riding them, I'm talking about. I don't mind being around them and feeding them and playing with them and all that, but I'm talking about riding them. And, you know, we out there shooting the scene. We're supposed to be in Afghanistan. Miguel comes riding up on his horse, you know. You know what I mean? Like, he was just like, it was just unbelievable.

He was just such, he was one of the best. He was one of the best, you know what I'm saying? Like, for real. So your dad is right to say that, to put that much, you know, on his contribution to the show

because he brought a lot to the table. Miguel was real special. Real special. How many seasons for you at that show? We've done 11 seasons so far.

Yeah. Did you ever think in a million years when you took that job, you'd be like, hey, 11 years later, still going. I figured it think in a million years when you took that job, you'd be like, hey, 11 years later. No, I figured it

was still going. I figured it would be two years and, you know, just on to something else. I had no idea. I had zero idea. You know what I'm

saying? And that those are like the best gigs to get for acting, right? Because you just you're in everything is everything is set perfectly.

It just keeps going and going. You have more leverage every year as the show keeps staying successful. Yeah, but you know, look, you can never know what's going to work and what's not going to work, right? You don't know. So in hindsight, it may appear like that, but you don't know.

You know, does a basketball player know that they're going to stay healthy for 12, 15, 18, 19 seasons? You know, does Vince Carter know that he's going to, you know, his body's going to be able to handle that? You know, it kind of just unfolds, right? And you have to deal with things in the moment. Yeah. But the one thing I do is I just try to approach, you know,

this whole thing with humility, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, and also just keep building, you know what I'm saying? And keep moving forward alright last question you have to answer you can't sneak out of this one because we're coming up the hills of the last dance and a whole goat conversation right

who's the goat rapper you can take as long as you want for this Yeah I understand the question But the problem is that It's really subjective because You know anybody you name Stood on the shoulders of someone else So it's almost like

You could say that about Jordan right You could say that about everybody But my thing is that, you know, I think being great, I think greatness is very subjective, bro. You know what I'm saying? I really do. I think, you know, because you were inspired by others. No matter what it is, you were inspired and others, no matter what it is, you were inspired and learned from others. So it's like,

I think it's more about who had the greatest impact on your life personally. I think greatness, the real metric is, it's not about greatest basketball player. It's about greatest impact on a certain fan's life. That's what we're really debating. What we're really debating is who had the greatest impact on your life in a specific field. That's why I came up with the term GOAT. I took Earl the GOAT Man of GOAT, who was a famous street basketball player. I took Greatest of All Times by Muhammad Ali, and I formed an acronym, G-O-A-T, and made the album GOAT and dropped it in 2000.

And that's where the whole GOAT came from. The whole term came from. So... Wait a second. How did I not know that? I knew you had album name, but I didn't know that you actually created the acronym. Yeah, but I mean, most people don't know

because it took on a life of its own. Yeah, I just assumed it was there for 50 years. Nah, you can, you know, we can fact check that. You can fact check that on every search engine in the world. Honestly, that's really impressive. That's one of the most impressive

acronym inventions. It worked out. It went well. It became, it entered the lexicon for sure. Oh my God. Yeah. So it's like, so when I said I was the GOAT, I was just talking like, yo, I'm the GOAT. Like, I feel like I'm the greatest of all time, period. Now it's up to you to feel like that for you.

I'm clear that I didn't have the greatest impact on every hip hop fan because every hip hop fan was impacted, felt the impact of different artists, you know, different fans feel the impacts of different artists, different athletes, different yo, I'm the GOAT, and everybody... So by creating that, setting that standard, I think, you know, by taking that, what Ali said, and taking Earl the Man of GOAT and putting those two things together, setting that standard, you know, it just became something. So, you know, I'm gonna go with LL Cool J because I coined the phrase.

I think you win that one. Yeah. I think, win that one. Yeah. I think, you know, it's funny. It's like acting because it's really hard to say who's the greatest actor of all time. In sports, we can at least use championships and stats and we can add all these other things. And in acting, you can't. You know why you can't use championships and stats, even though everybody does? I'm very clear.

But because they don't measure impact. You tell a kid who thinks LeBron is the GOAT that he's not the GOAT because he went to eight championships, et cetera, and only won a certain amount or whatever. He's not trying to hear that because the way LeBron impacted his life is crazy. So the GOAT is a measurement of impact. It's not about how many records you sold. It's not about how many times you was at the top of the charts. It's not even about how many rings you got. It's the impact that you've had on people. So when we look at The Last Dance, what do you remember? You're not really thinking about the rings.

The thing that jumps off the screen at you when you're watching the documentary is his impact. You're looking at Michael Jordan's impact on the world. That's how greatness is measured. It's measured by impact. You can't- Well, and also the experience of seeing him in person, which I thought it did a good job of- Exactly.

Because that way, out of all the guys I ever saw, he was the one that just owned the room, no matter, give it to 20,000 people. Months. Owned the room. There's nobody like him right wow i can't believe you came up with i i can't believe i didn't know that i feel like such an idiot i thought that had been around since like i don't know joe dimaggio or something no definitely not

well amazing uh all right rockthebells.com good stuff. Yeah. I like, I like the whole mindset behind it. It's really cool. Yeah. Like, like I said, as far as rock the bells.com is concerned, people, you know, classic timeless hip hop generation X strictly OG mindset. You know what I'm saying? It's a space where fans can celebrate the culture in a big way. You can, you can listen to the music. You can see exclusive audio and video. We have all the things associated with classic hip hop. It's a whole ecosystem. So if you're in that mindset and you really want to know what hip hop is about for real,

you go to rockthebells.com. You know what I'm saying? Straight up. This was great. I really enjoyed it. Good seeing you. Thank you. No doubt. I appreciate you, baby. Love. One. All right, before we go, I wanted to play a brief excerpt of Doc Rivers, who was awesome on Flying Coach

with Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll. This is the ninth podcast they've done. The 10th podcast will be the last one next week. They have to get back to their real lives coaching and doing all the things that they do. We've been so happy to have this podcast on The Ringer. And if you've missed any of them, just go to the Flying Coach feed,

which you can find on Spotify and on Apple. So here is that right now. Doc Rivers, just an excerpt from that podcast. Doc, when you have the opportunity to share those stories of your background and all, do you shy away from doing that? Or are you quick to do that? I know you probably recognize in your players similar stories, stuff which we've surfaced through all of our discussions and time together.

Are you an advocate of guys sharing those kinds of backgrounds in your own personally with your guys? Yeah, I'm very personal with my players. It's funny, Pete, when I first got the job in coaching, I got calls from coaches and told me, hey, get close, but not too close, you know, to your players. You don't want to get too close. And I found out early on that that was wrong advice. I think as a coach, at least in my opinion, you get as close as you can to them. You care for them.

You try to give them as much love as you can. And I've learned over the years, you're going to get your heart broken sometimes by that. I mean, because you'll give them all. And sometimes they love you back and sometimes they don't. But even if they don't, you still should. And I think we, you know, we forget that coaching means teaching, you know, and I think our jobs are to teach more than basketball, to give advice about life. I've gotten in trouble, honestly, with a couple of players

where I just didn't like the way they were living their lives. And I thought that I needed to have a discussion with them and they didn't like me anymore because I said that. And I look back on that and I think it was the right thing to do. Some did think they would thank you later. You know how that goes. But yeah, I share my background. I share my history.

You know, I've been through a lot of stuff with race. Chicago is just an extremely segregated city, especially when I grew up. You know, in Maywood, you were safe. You walk right across the border to Marrow's Park or Oak Park. It depends on if you're walking and the police or whoever didn't want to bother you. But there are many times they did. And you had to deal with that.

You know, I get to Marquette. I marry a lady, Chris, who remembers who was white. And I get my house burned down, which Steve knows, in San Antonio by skinheads. And that was a brutal day for me and my family. So, and then from there

you go to the sterling stuff. You just go through life as an American, but especially a black American. And, you know, it's funny. You can be poor. You're still black.

You can be middle class. You're still black. And you can be rich and you're still black. The difference is when you become a coach or an athlete, someone will give you a mic. And so you have an opportunity to say uh say it and and so i do i think it's very important for my players you know it's funny when the sterling thing came out i remember walking into the room with the players and they all had their arms folded um and you know how that look is like they don't they're basically saying they don't want to hear your

crap right now. And I couldn't get through for about five minutes. And then I put my blue pad down. I carry a little pad with me everywhere. I put it down on the table and I said, okay, my name is Glenn Rivers. I'm from Maywood and I'm black. And this is my life. And I share stories. And as I start sharing stories, everyone unfolded their arms because as a coach, sometimes they forget, you know, what what you are. And they just look at you as a coach. And so, yeah, I think it's important to remind them where you're from.

I think we've been talking about it the last couple of weeks. We talked about it with Greg Popovich last week as white coaches and as basically just as white people. I think there's finally an understanding now, at least as far as I can see in society that white people have to do more. And for white coaches, as much as we think we know that our black athletes go through, we don't really know. And Pop referenced that. And it was a great article in the New York Times. Yeah, that was a great article. And I love the way he put it as only Pop can.

He said, you think you know so much. Talking to himself. He said, you think you know so much. Yeah, that was I get it. But it's imperative to try. I think that's the most important thing right now. It's imperative to try. sharing feelings, you know, sharing things that maybe we haven't shared before because, you know, out of being shy, being reluctant to, you know, reveal things about yourself. I think everybody's got to really share their stories, their pasts and go from there. Yeah, it's amazing. Steve, I did it last week with my players. I was shocked at what I didn't know. You know, Ty Lue has been a coach. I coached Ty Lue. He's been a coach with me in Boston. He went on to win a title, was coaching me with the Clippers. He told a story that blew my mind. And I'm thinking, wait a minute, I'm his friend and I didn't know this story.

You know, and so it's amazing with all of us. I think we all have to educate, black and white. I think white has to educate as far as understanding the impact of slavery and just where it put all of us, you know? But I think blacks have to understand it as well. And I think we all are on a journey right now. Can you imagine the story that the NFL players and the NBA players could tell if they just put a microphone and said,

tell me about your life? And they made it a movie or something. It would be the most powerful thing and it'd be shocking to all of us. All right. Thanks so much to ZipRecruiter. Thanks to LL Cool J. Thanks to my buddy Jacko. And we'll be back on Thursday with one more pod. And if you missed the rewatchables, we did Fletch. You can check that out as well.

Enjoy the rest of the middle of the way.