The Bill Simmons Podcast - An NBA Fake-Trade Fiesta With Kevin O’Connor

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

It's fake trade season! The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor of Yahoo Sports to discuss NBA teams to watch around the trade deadline, including the Mavericks, 76ers, Pelicans, Lakers, and Heat (1:20). Then, they fire off a bunch of fake NBA trades as the deadline approaches (30:22). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Kevin O'Connor Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Air Transat. Travel Moves Us. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did a rewatchables mailbag. I had a great time. Thanks to everybody who sent in emails. We came up with new categories, a couple theme months, slightly tweaked the structure of the show, had some laughs.

So it was me and Chris Ryan and producer Craig Horlbeck. If you want to watch that, it is on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel. If you want to watch anything from this podcast, the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We did not do a podcast Tuesday. Making up for it today with a special basketball podcast. Our old friend Kevin O'Connor is coming in. We're going to talk about a bunch of teams that are in trouble. We're going to talk about fake trades, what's realistic, what's not,

where people like Jimmy Butler going? Could there be a surprise? The trade deadline is February 6th. We're breaking all of it down. First, our friends taping this. It is four o'clock Pacific time. There's reasons for that, which I'll get to. I'm very excited.

I have Kevin O'Connor here. You might remember him from many, many, many years at the Ringer. He is now at Yahoo. We have not done a podcast during this basketball season. What better time, KOC, than fake trade season for us to reunite? Best time of the year, Bill. And I have to say, you know, you know, I called you on the phone when I left for Yahoo, but I have to thank you for everything, you know, those eight years of

the Ringer publicly. I have to, I have to. Yeah, we were, we Yeah, we're always good. Yes, of course. So, unfortunately, we had to take this a little late on Wednesday because I was flying back from Boston this morning. And then there was a Wi-Fi issue on the plane. And I'm like, is this going to work out?

Am I going to be able to do a podcast today? The Wi-Fi miraculously came back. And then I was on my iPad for hours making fake trades. And I think a couple of times the lady next to me was like, what's this guy doing? What is, what is this trade machine that he has? But before we do that, a bunch of teams I want to hit just big picture that kind of relate to this in some ways, big with someone Dallas. I think Dallas is in real trouble now.

This lively injury, it's a foot injury, and they're saying out two to three months. And as I've said a million times, I never trust feet injuries. I always feel like they're not being honest about how long the timetable is, because I'm not sure they know. And I always go worst case scenario.

Three months takes us into the playoffs. It takes us into round one. And on top of it, Lucas hurt, and I thought Dallas was gonna be there in the end, this is the first time I got worried. Yeah, I think with this lively injury, there's been some trickling out for a few days that like, oh, maybe they're gonna go after a center,

but I'm like, huh, maybe they wanna just have some versatility in the front court. But now that we know about the injury, it completely explains why they're going for a center here. And so my question is, what type of center are they gonna go for? They're gonna go for another, you know, lob vertical guy like lively like Gafford But if you add a third guy like that and then lively comes back you can't then what then what's your rock sense? Yeah, exactly. So I wonder if maybe for them they still go after you know

A pick-and-pop big or a switchable, somebody like that to give them some front court versatility. But Gafford looked damn good in the first half of their game on Sunday. So like Gafford, we know he can step his play up. So I wouldn't say, I don't think I'd go as far as you to say that they're screwed. But it is going to be a lot dependent on what they do to fill that center gap because it can't just be Gafford. That's all they have now. Well, they're screwed in this respect.

Right now they're seventh in the West, they're 23 and 20. Doesn't look like Lucas coming back until the All-Star break. There's teams that are just settled in way ahead of them now. The top four, Oklahoma, Houston, Memphis, Denver. I just don't think they're catching any of those teams, especially with the way Denver's playing.

So now you're looking at, I don't have home court advantage any round. I don't know when Labley's coming back. They also made a lot of trades already. They don't have like a shitload of assets, you know, they've already made. A lot of their moves and they would have to dip into the clay PJ Washington, like that kind of group to improve with their new proof. So I'm sure their game plan is just going to be, we're probably going to be in that seven to 10 range.

Let's hope Labley comes back. Let's hope Luca gets going. We'll be there in the end. But pretty tough, man. If you're in those playing games and then you're on the road every round, we haven't really seen, we haven't seen a lot of success with that recipe, KOC.

I mean, even with a healthy Lively, I'm curious, like do you still view them as like upper tier in the Western Conference right on the same level as Denver, who's really come along lately? Like Russell Westbrook, you've got to give the dude credit. He is playing at the best, best level that he has in years. Jamal Murray getting along better now. Danny Chow wrote about it for us. It's the most improbable relationship we've had in the NBA this decade. Yoke Kitchen Westbrook somehow like joining forces in a positive way.

I don't understand it. It's kind of crazy. Like with Russ, it didn't work with LeBron. It works sometimes with the Clippers, but not all the time. It didn't in one of their playoffs. Not at the end. Yeah. And then with Jokic, it's like you have Jokic after the game talking about like,

we can read each other's minds. Like there is some chemistry that they have. It feels like every other game. Once it's Jokic and Westbrook, then it's Jokic and Murray, then it's Jokic and MPJ. It's always a different connection. Like they're they're often sometimes I felt like it got a bit dry. Like sometimes it was always Jokic, Murray end of game situations. But there's variety now that makes me think, wait a minute,

is Denver actually just the only true contender besides OKC in the Western Conference? Are they actually the team that could take them down? Because I'm not totally sold on Dallas anyway. I think they have too many holes. I'm still worried about Lucas Health. I mean, when you're coming back post-all-star break with that type of injury,

that's the type of thing they can get hurt again. And Kyrie in and out still as well. A lot of questions there with them even prior to lively. Um, but but here's the flip side of this is why it was stupid to give up on Denver a month ago. If you have one of the best six players in the league, you just have to be taken seriously in the playoffs. So the question for me is, can he get back to the right shape? When can lively come back? Can they sneak out? Like if they're

playing Houston in round one at two-7, they could beat Houston. I don't know if Houston has another gear. So I'm sure they're not totally panicking yet, but it's not great. You know, and you think like Lucas 26 now, they made the finals last year. They really went all in on this season and Oklahoma City kind of took their spot. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not a full level panic. I don't like the fact that they're not going to have home court any round, every round. Uh, and I also don't know what the trade move is. So next one is Philly who is borderline shut it down territory,

but you also look at the East and it's like, yeah, they could make the playing game and what if they have those guys in mid April and they're all healthy and I don't really know what the answer is, but the big thing is their first pick is top six protected, which everybody's been talking about all week. And I thought about how okay. So he gets that pick, right. If it's like seventh in a really good draft that I'm sure, I'm sure you've been become fascinated by this is the Sam Presti revenge on Darrell Mori,

the James Harden trade 2012, right? And it became this thing that, that became, became this curse over OKC. And they never got to the finals and Darrell kind of made his career in a lot of ways. The flip side of this, okay. So he gets this pick because Philly has to dump Al Horford, right? And now this pick is paralyzing Philly with their decisions because you maybe want to just throw away the season and yet you can if Embiid is going to be healthy in two weeks. So what do you do if you're Philly?

I don't think you can throw away the season. You can't like you said with Embiid, if he's healthy, they've been good after he got back in December. Granted he's missed a lot of times since then, but if he's healthy, you know you're competitive. The problem is the fact that you get Paul George and you're saying, well, he's just going to be better than Tobias Harris. He's going to be way better than Harris that has been for us. And then he looks like Tobias Harris for you. And so if Paul George is actually- Is that an insult to Tobias Harris? I'm not sure.

Yeah, it is. Because Tobias Harris was I'm not sure. Yeah, it is. Because Tobias Harris is very average, below average with the Sixers. And he's been pretty good with the Pistons. No, but I'm saying, would Tobias Harris listen to this and be like, yo, I've been better than Paul George. At least I played. That would be fair if he did say that he's at least

been on the court. But with Paul George, he just looks like a complete shell of his former self. So if the Paul George decline is beginning, and this isn't just an off year at 35, with Paul George, he just looks like a complete shell of his former self. So if the Paul George decline is beginning, and this isn't just an off year at 35, 36 years old, whatever he is, you have to take advantage of these years, especially if like a beat is healthy come April

and you sneak in as the seven or the eight seed. You can't waste a year. There's no way they're gonna be the seven or the eight seed. They're gonna be nine or 10, but they could still sneak in because they'd have to win two playing games. Yeah. That's what I mean.

If they win the two playing games, and they sneak in in that case, and there's the seven or eight, like you gotta, you have to go for that possibility. You can't completely tank out here. But if MB doesn't come back, moving up in the lottery is your silver lining here for Philadelphia.

But I don't think you can tank for that. It's not worth doing that. You at least have to go for it. Otherwise it's another year wasted. And for Darrell Morey in the front office as well, and Nick Nurse as head coach, that could mean your job too. If they do miss the playoffs, and if next year they go into things and it's not better,

you might not get another job anytime soon. So I don't think they have much of a choice but to go for it now. We have hit Fall Guy range, and it going to be their nurse or Darrell. And I don't know which one it's going to be, but we're very close at this point. And those guys don't play hard for a nurse at all. But they don't seem like they, it just, we've seen this happen over the course of the NBA history.

Like, like Don Nelson was a great coach. He took over the Ewing Knicks at one point in the mid 90s and I think he lasted like 45 games. It just didn't work. I don't know if it's that bad for them, but when you don't have two of your best three guys basically never playing, you know, they had this huge stretch last week. It was like four and five against all good teams and Embiid missed all the games. And then he met, and then they were like, he's probably out at least another week. If you look at their schedule, any game where he would come back, it's a good team. If there's like, always like a Boston or a Cleveland, there's some somebody on there. And I just, I don't think he's going to come back until he's healthy.

I think, I don't think he wants to come back at his ass kicked. So I don't know if you're Nick Durst, what do you do on that? But the Paul George piece is the shocking thing. I guess we should have known, he's been in the league a while, that it was possible, but I don't know. He was always hit or miss, but he hit, and he's not hitting anymore. It's more misses or I forgot you were out there than hits.

Yeah, I mean, at the least, at a minimum, he was a far better spot up shooter than Tobias Harris. He was always above 40% from three. Tobias Harris was very streaky and consistent and lower volume. This year, Paul George, only 35% from three has not been a knockdown guy on top of just stinking it up end of game situations, losing control of the ball in the final minutes of games, some real careless turnovers, and the defense is not at a lockdown level, for that matter either. So like the things that you thought at a minimum were getting

elite defender and knockdown shooter who can sometimes go off, you're not even getting the role player stuff from him right now. And so that's where your Philadelphia, if he's not producing, I don't know if there's an answer for you to solve that at all with this Rossi You're you were banking on Paul George you waited for him in free agency That's what the whole plan was was to go out and get Paul George for seven months This was the plan. So if he's not working out, nobody's gonna take him for that matter. Do you thinks the most relieved? Orlando the Clippers I wonder who else would have been in the mix on that. Well, Golden State was in the mix for Paul George too.

Golden State. Oh yeah. But at the same time, can you be relieved if you're them though? You're super average this year. Yeah. You're a 500-foot team. Yeah. So we agree.

Philly needs to use those picks though. They have four tradable picks. They need to use those, I'd say. Would you use McCain, who's out for the year? I don't know. He looks pretty damn good, Phil. Long term, McCain-Maxey is your backcourt? Is that a backcourt that makes sense to you from a basketball standpoint? It's too small.

It's too small. But I think McCain's value would only go up. To me, I think everybody talks about Jimmy Butler as a guide to Phoenix and all these other teams. Nobody ever mentions Philly. What if Philly offered three firsts with Paul George to reunite Jimmy Butler with Joel Labide? Maybe you don't do that if you're Philly. Maybe you keep your tradeable picks and go elsewhere, but I'm just throwing the idea out there. And maybe Miami rolls the dice with Paul George

as a longer term salary. I have Paul George coming up later when we get to the fake trade section of this podcast, because it's a fascinating topic. So we agree, Philly's not shutting it down. They still have a chance to be a nine or a 10 seed. If they can get all those guys healthy for two months, that's still the plan. And if I'm Darrell Morey, that's a better chance than keeping my fingers crossed in the lottery. Okay. Next one New Orleans is in what the fuck land where they suck, but now that all their guys are back. They're actually like

pretty solid and really talented and Trey Murphy's been playing great and They might be too talented to be a full tank team a lot of Brooklyn and teams like that They have some good trade assets Ingram as an't expiring, he's hurt right now. Zion, year to year he can get out. CJ McCollum, overpriced, but reasonable for somebody who needs a scoring something. And then I guess Murray, their roster doesn't really make sense. I don't even know what the move is. What do they do? What do you do if you're running New Orleans? I think you even know what the move is. What do they do?

What do you do if you're running New Orleans? I think you just keep it going. Honestly, I wouldn't necessarily tank it out unless you're getting a really, really good deal from McCollum. I think trading CJ McCollum would definitely be top of my list aside from the obvious Ingram. See, now he's gonna be upset at me again

because he thinks I always throw him in trade rumors. I mean, nobody's wanted Ingram for a year and a half. Especially now that he's hurt. Yeah. Yes. Is that going to change in the next three weeks here? With McCollum, at least he has had some banger performances as of late. He's looked healthy. He looks very good for them right now. So maybe you're trading McCollum. The issue is the fact that he's a tough guy to trade at $33 million this year. He's still a smaller, smaller guard. So for New Orleans part of part of me, Bill looks at this as a year in which

your horrible start with Zion missing time keeps you in the lottery. It's going to keep you having good draft odds. So if you do, and then the Lakers, yes. So if you win towards the end of the season, maybe you actually have some clarity on what you want to do heading into the summer. So I'm not totally against keeping things together because you're going to have a lottery pick anyway. Like it's, you're not going to get into the play and it's, you're too far back

right now. So I'm okay with keeping things together right now. And if Zion is, you know, back to prime Zion for the whole rest of the season, I think that maybe gives you an idea of what you wanna do in the summer if you're the Pelicans versus dumping things right now just for slightly higher odds. You just stumbled into the answer. These next two months are about building back Zion up

as a genuine asset and then trying to get out of that, get out of that situation as fast as you can. So you're still ejecting from the Zion situation. I am. To me, if he's healthy for two months, that trade when the value's high. There are 11 wins, or 11 losses behind Phoenix for the 10 seed.

That's crazy. So there's no scenario where they catch fire, unfortunately. One of the things about trading McCollum is then you could play Jordan Hawkins more. It's weird. They're, they're deep, but they also have a terrible record. They make no sense as a, as a team of assets. Anyway, uh, next one.

I didn't know it was going to be today. What's today's date? January 22nd. I thought it was going to be after the Celtics game the next day when we celebrated the annual Lakers holiday, passive aggressive trade day, when some report comes out that LeBron and AD or just LeBron aren't happy with the roster. It happened today. It was January 22nd.

I wish I had had FanDuel put odds with all the different days in January when it was going to happen, but it happened today. LeBron and AD apparently really want them to improve the roster. They're not that happy with it. I don't know what the move is, KOC. When you're paying those two guys a hundred plus million dollars a year, and you have Reeves, your roster's pretty good. And maybe look in the mirror a little bit.

And I went through everybody. I don't, if it's Rui and Vanderbilt and Vincent and two firsts, I don't even know what you're getting. Who's available? If it's a top 50 player, nobody wants to trade a top 50 player. So you're looking at people like Zach Levine and if they got Zach Levine, I just don't think they're a contender in the West. They would have the same problems they have anywhere where they can't guard anybody. I would never, Reeves is a hangup for me. If somebody called about Reeves at 12 billion a year.

It's like, yeah, I'm sure you do want Austin Reeves. Fuck off. Hang up. I don't know what the move is for them. I don't know how they're a title contender. And I have some ideas zagging the other way. But what do you think? If you're trying to add, which I don't think they're going to go the other way, Walker Kessler as a center, try to go get him from Utah.

Then you can play two big lineups. Are you winning four go the other way. Walker Kessler is a center. Try to go get him from Utah. Then you can play two big lineups. Are you winning four rounds if you make a Walker Kessler trade? No. Just one of the names. You can trade two picks. You can trade multiple swaps. You do have some tradable salaries.

So maybe that's one of the guys you go for. And I don't know if you and I feel the same way about this guy, Bill, but I think everything Zach Levine has done this year. Forget it. We're aligned on that. Okay. So like to me, like if you're able to put a package together for Zach Levine and it's a tough deal, it probably have to be a three way. But if you go get Zach Levine and add him to the bunch with LeBron James,

Anthony Davis, if you're able to go get a five like Walker Kessler, you have Dorian Finney-Smith already, you have Austin Reeves. Like suddenly you have like a really good top six, top seven with a lot of dynamic scoring ability, versatility on defense, different lineup configurations that you can play. So I think the Lakers should be adding,

they should try to trade their 29 and 31, they should try to trade their swaps. They should try to go for something here. If I was a Laker fan, I would be losing my mind at this. You want to really, we're going to mortgage basically the next six years so we can fulfill the charade that we're a title contender. What if you try to get to Oklahoma city? What if you slightly protect those picks? I wouldn't do it. I would zag the other other way and if Reeves is in a trade they're just flat-out What's the other way does that mean trading ad trading LeBron? I have an ad idea

okay, I think they should think about zagging the other way and trading ad and You know, it's a really interesting thing to bring up to Laker fans because I think they're grateful They won the title in 2020, but I also feel like they don't want to lose the entire decade trying to pretend that they can win a title with these two guys as their best players because they can't, you know, and you watch them. First of all, did you see that stat about how their, their, uh, their record versus what the record actually is?

Like how far the expected win rate or whatever that status, which backs up what I've watched. Like they've lucked out with some schedule stuff. I don't think they're that good. And I think they know they're not that good. Whatever their record is, they're gonna play the Celtics tomorrow night and LeBron will have his A game.

And they're just not good enough defensively if the Celtics play well. Granted the Celtics could go seven for 50 from three and get smoked in a second game back to back, but defensively they're just not good enough. And I don't know if Walker Kessler is changing that. Yeah. If you look at the, the teams in the NBA right now with 23 plus wins, the only two teams with a negative point differential, they're magic minus 0.5 and the Lakers

minus two and the Lakers minus two. And the Magic lost their two best players for most of the season. Yes. Yep. And the Lakers, they're the only team in the West top six right now with a negative plus minus on the entire season. I just don't see it. I would not give away the rest of the future just because LeBron wants a better team. You know, part of it is you insisted on the Anthony Davis trade. You guys won a title for it. You gave away all of these assets.

You struck oil with Reeves. That was one of the luckiest things that could have happened to any team to get a guy. Was he undrafted or a second round? He was undrafted, right? Pretty sure he went undrafted or a second runner? He was undrafted, right? Pretty sure he went undrafted, yeah. Yeah, and then they get him on this crazy contract because he didn't go out and shop himself, so he's like 12 million a year for,

that's one of the best contracts in the league. So if you just look at those three things and the role players they have, you would think they would be better than they are, but can't guard anybody. Last team is Miami. So the Butler thing is, this is about as bad of a player team situation

as we've had in a while. It's also the NBA I grew up with, where stars would just get mad at teams, stars would miss planes. You know, even going into the 2000s, this would happen with people like Vince Carter. I don't know what his trade value is anymore, and I don't think you probably do either. I don't know what his trade value is anymore. And I don't think you probably do either.

I don't know what he's worth. I can't decide because he can opt in next year. He's such a headache. He's 35, you know, they have to trade them. Why am I offering anything for him? And he also hasn't done anything since game two of the East finals against the Celtics two years ago in 2023. Like he was inefficient. the rest of that series,

inefficient against Denver. It's mistimed the last two years for suspensions, for being a malcontent, for injuries, for age. I don't know what he's actually worth at this point for all those reasons. So I don't even know if I'd want to trade for him if I'm the sons. I get the appeal.

He's better than Bradley Beal. If you're gonna, obviously they're gonna continue trying to build this thing up. If that's the trade, you're doing that. Yes, if it's Bradley Beal, you're doing that. Bradley Beal for Butler straight up, which would be just an insane trade for Miami to make. I don't know why they would take on

an extra year of Bradley Beal. That's why you have like all these rumors trickling out about how it could be a four or five team trade because it's like somebody else would be taking Beal on this situation and I actually figured out what that trade would be. This wasn't one of my fake trades. I got one too for this one. I want to know if it came up with the same thing. But the part that has to be true is A Beal would want to wave his no trade clause to go to Milwaukee, which I find hard to believe B Milwaukee would want Bradley Beale for this year and the next two. So that you just have to like assume that that might be true. I don't think it is.

Doesn't have to be the bucks for Beale. Well, I'm just the trade I came up with was Butler of the Suns Beale to the bucks. Miami gets Chris Middleton, Steven Adams from Houston, and Cam Whitmore from Houston, and Houston gets Brooke Lopez. And that actually works. Houston was in on Brooke Lopez. Yeah, seven, eight million to turn Adams and Whitmore into Lopez, basically.

And then all the contracts work. Bucks just get billed? Bucks just get billed, that's it. See, I'm saying no from the bucks. I think I am too. Yeah, yeah. But I think I am too. Yeah. Yeah. But I think when people talk about four teamers, five teamers, it's a trade like that and I think a team like Houston has to be involved getting turning atoms and

one of their younger, cheaper assets in a better center. Here's what I got for the Jimmy Butler five-way deal. I got, so let's hear it. Butler five-way. Five-way deal. I got Suns get Butler. Oh, let's hear it. Five-way. Five-way. Suns get Butler. Heat get Chris Middleton and Pat Conaton. Okay.

Bulls get Bradley Beal. Bucks get Zach Levine. And then the Pistons take Bobby Portis into their cap space. And then you distribute some picks to the teams that should get them like the Bulls for taking Beal instead of Levine. But that would be the players that work salary wise. And so you've got Beale, maybe he'd wave his no trade clause,

get reunited with his college coach, Billy Donovan, restore his career there, who knows what his logic would be going there. But I don't think there's many teams that Beale would wave his no trade clause for. And I thought it was very, very interesting that Mark Bartelin, his agent, came out again publicly tonight.

It's the second time he's spoken publicly about Beale. And he listed a bunch of teams, the Lakers, the Bucks, the Heat, all these teams he's not waving his no trade clause for. The Bulls weren't mentioned. And so that might be because the Bulls aren't a team that a lot of people are talking about publicly in this whole scenario.

But you do have the other stuff reported earlier on Thursday about the Bucks looking at Zach Levine. I don't think the Bucks would want Beale either. He's not necessarily an upgrade over this diminished version of Chris Middleton, but Zach Levine damn well is an upgrade over what you have in Middleton right now. So maybe Beale to the Bulls is something that could make sense there, which is why I came up with those five teams. And the Pistons is the fifth team.

You could put other teams there, but they're the one with cap space, so it's just easy. That's good work, KSC. Here would be my counter. Why would, I don't understand why the Bulls have to get rid of Zach LaVine. He's played really well this year. I actually think he's an asset. I'd want to keep him. We did the Ringer 100, I had him like in the 30s have to get rid of Zach Levin. He's played really well this year. I actually think he's an asset.

I want to keep him. We did the Ringer 100. I had him like in the thirties. I watched him single-handedly beat like the Knicks, the Celtics, like he's, the better the competition is, the more he goes up a level. If I was Milwaukee and I could turn Chris Middleton another contract in to Zach Levin,

I'm doing that in five seconds. He's way better than Bradley Beale. Plus he plays. Yes, if I'm the sons, I'd probably rather get Zach Levine than Jimmy Butler. I think you're right. I mean, like Jimmy Butler, obviously he's proven it in the playoffs.

He was younger at that time. Zach Levine also has not been in those situations. But if you removed last year when he was out for the season with a foot injury, he's been awesome since 2020. It's been awesome. And he has, and this year he has the ball a lot, which is like for the Lakers, he makes no sense because he's not going to have the ball nearly as much and he

can't play defense, right? So if you're trading for him, it has to be a situa- like the Rockets won't do it. But he's somebody that makes a ton of sense for me if I'm the Rockets, even though he'd hurt a little defensively. He's somebody in the last five minutes of a game can actually like match baskets with whoever the best player in the other team is. I think that's his superpower. Not a lot of guys like the sons don't necessarily need that. Right.

But if you're talking about the Bucks who already have Damon Yanis, but you're improving the Middleton spot with him, basically the way Middleton's been playing this year, like I think about it. I like, I, I, we were, we're aligned though. I think Levine's been good. I hate seeing him get thrown into these trades. Like he's not an asset. I think he's an asset.

It makes no sense. I mean, I just pulled up some numbers prior to the recording bill, just, just cause like with Levine, a lot of people still think he's like he's not an asset. I think he's an asset. It makes no sense. I mean, I just pulled up some numbers prior to the recording bill, just, just cause like with Levine, a lot of people still think he's like some diminished asset, but four of the last five years, if you remove last season, 45% on catch and shoot threes, 37% on dribble jumper threes, 45% on mid range jumpers, 63% on unassisted shots at the rim. He's caught 26 lob dunks. That's the fourth most of all guards in the NBA.

So he's versatile. We know he's a great athlete. He's an elite shooter off the dribble and off the catch. He's versatile with how he gets to those shots, screens and handoffs, pick and roll, he can shoot from mid range. He can do a lot for your offense and fit into different roles at this point. So just like, I just forget about last year. He's been injury prone.

But last year was the only year where it actually affected his performance ever since 2020. So to me, if I'm the bulls, I'd be happy to keep them. I know that creates some roster issues with Kobe White and all that. Maybe you end up flipping him instead. But Kobe White's also on a value contract. But Levine's been awesome, dude I just I can't I I can't understand why he's still viewed as some horrible asset at this point The only reason to trade him is if you feel like your team doctors who've spent a lot of time with them are like

So high right now. This is this is this is it. He's gonna get hurt in two months That's the only reason maybe you do maybe maybe that's what it ends up being like if the Lakers say we'll give you two unprotected firsts if if the Sun say we'll give you Bradley Beale and Two two two or three firsts that we just received in that really interesting deal with jazz. I would keep them I think he's gonna be worth more especially like next year. There'll only be two years left on his deal they're gonna be a playing team unless Philly can catch them. And I wouldn't wanna play that game in a winner takes all, that team in a winner take all,

where all of a sudden it's a tie game with five minutes left and Zach Levine is doing some of the stuff we've seen him do this year. All right, we're aligned on that. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna come back. Fake trade time. The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by FanDuel. From the first whistle to the final drive, FanDuel taking the NFL playoffs to the next

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be fun to throw you and then I want to hit a that I don't think will happen, but I thought it would be fun to throw at you. And then I want to hit a couple that I do think could happen, should happen, probably won't happen, but at least are realistic. Trade number one, Bradley Beal for Paul George straight up. Who says no? Bradley Beal says no. Bradley Beal says no. Bradley Beale says no. That's right.

All right. Let's say he didn't have no trade clause. So Bradley Beale has two years left after this year. Paul George has three. The Sixers called Phoenix and said, we'll give you Paul George right now for Beale. The sons are like, really? Okay. Well, and they decided to do it.

Beale has that connection with Embiid. Remember Embiid was pushing for him a couple years ago. I think Phoenix blinks faster with a no than Philly in that trade. I think both say no in the end. Right. Philly needs that big wing. They have enough guards. They have Maxie.

McCain's out for the year, but they still have him. So you think they say no faster? I think Philly says no faster, but both end up saying no. I think Phoenix says no faster, but who knows? All right, next one. Three-teamer. How this is.

Miami gets Kevin Durant. Philly gets Jimmy Butler. Phoenix gets Joelle Embiid and in 2029 first and Philly gets a 2029 first. Philly's just out of the Embiid business. They turn Embiid in a 2029 first from Miami into Jimmy Butler and they're just out. Never gonna happen. But it leads me to this question. Would Philly ever consider trading Embiid A? B, would anyone consider trading for Embiid when he plays 40 games a year, max? Is he untradable, is he tradable? I have no idea.

I think Embiid, I think the Sixers would consider trading Embiid this summer. Right now, today, I don't think they would. I just don't think you can today. But this summer, absolutely you could. He starts a whole new contract, 59 million dollars next season. Then sixty four and then sixty nine the next three years.

Guaranteed. Can you imagine Josh Harris, who also owns Washington, who's playing for the NFC title on Sunday, and he gets like a call about Sixers and he's like, I don't even care. Like, just whatever. Just just don't make any trades. Like, I'll do that this summer. I just care about football. That's it. Sixers are a loss. Get them out of here. By the way, that you know, Bob Myers helped Washington with the football team, right? He was on that advisory committee and he and I just feel like he's looming with the Sixers thing. And I don't think I'm alone. There's been some Bob Myers, Philly buzz that I think has been building. Cause I think he had a good experience with Josh Harris. Have you heard this?

Very interesting. Now, I, the only thing I heard of Bob Myers is that the Sonics could be a team when they expand, whenever the NBA is going to do that. I think Bob Myers is lurking in general, but I would not, if, if there is a fall guy, which we talked about earlier, it's going to be Nick Nurse and Darrell Moore. And unfortunately, uh, could be the fact that Bob Myers is, yeah, maybe it's both. One thing that Bob Myers does builds the culture.

That's what he was famous for, the Warriors, and you bring him into Philly. So if it gets really bad, I just wouldn't be surprised. All right, so we both think- Is Bob a tear down guy? Like if he did get hired by the Sixers, was he somebody to reset things? Or would he try to make it work with the bead?

I think he's a, how do we get this to a better place all the way around guy before we decide to blow this up? Would be my guess. That's what I'm thinking too, yeah. Okay, so we both think in bead, nothing happens until this summer. I think more because the rest of the league would be like, yeah, cool.

Indeed. No, thanks. Third trade. Do we think Brandon Ingram has any value? Not really. Very little. Making like 33, something like that, but it's expiring. I think the value is New Orleans takes back a contract with another year on it and you get a pick as well. But Ingram himself, the injuries, the iffy production, not a lot of value and just not a lot of time left on his contract for that matter either. If you're Detroit, would you rather have Ingram for one year or Tobias Harris for two? I'm liking it with Tobias Harris.

I don't think I'd want to screw up that chemistry right now. Yeah, I think that's the right answer. All right, so I'm gonna get rid of them in that trade and I'm going to knock it down to. Is there something with San Antonio McCollum? Sorry, CJ, I threw you into a trade McCollum San Antonio has trade Jones expiring Zach Collins this year, next year, like 16 million. They have a little wiggle room where they could actually make a trade and Tony has trade Jones expiring Zach Collins this year, next year, like 16 million. They have a little wiggle room where they could actually make a trade and take a bigger salary back.

So there's ways to finagle it where they're basically just giving up an expiring Collins who is a guy next year. They could give up. They have a million picks. I want to see the Spurs add one or two guys, and that's going to be a recurring theme for the rest of my fake trades. Um, there's another version of this where it could be McCollum and Ingram together. Um, going from New Orleans to San Antonio and then New Orleans gets Jones, Collins,

Harrison Barnes expiring and at least one, 2025 first. I want to see San Antonio do something. Wemby's that if you have a top seven player, you can't pretend you don't have a top seven player. If you have tradable stuff and a million picks, like what's wrong with at least tweaking it and going for it a little bit? Is it possible you don't want to be too good too soon?

Why? To disperse? I mean, what's wrong with having another lottery pick this year in a draft where you can take Cooper flag if you end up getting lucky with the five or six percent chance with your lottery odds? It's impossible to go under 500 in Wembe. What's their record now? 19 and 22.

19 and 22. All right. So 10th best odds, 3% chance at the number one pick, which is unlikely. But so you're saying there's right now there's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven teams. They're definitely not catching from a loss standpoint plus Philly. I mean, I'd like to see them add two for, but the right pieces, McCollum point garden is thirties. Um, I'm, I'm iffy there and I don't love the Ingram fit with. Okay.

So you wouldn't do anything. That's why I put it in the, I'm not sure I would do this. I want to do that. There's other stuff I think I would do if I'm the spurs, but I wouldn't do that. Okay. Well, I have another spurs trade for you. This will never happen. I just want to, none of these four, I have another spurs trade for you. Okay. This will never happen. I just want to, none of these four trades I did, none of them are happening.

Do you have a Zion one? Just a fun exercise. I'd think about Zion. That'd be fun. Well, Zion's coming later. Okay. This is the official blow it up trade for Philly. Where San Antonio gets Paul George, Kyle Lowry and Tyrese Maxey.

Oh, wow. Philly gets Barnes, Zach Collins, Jones, Kelton Johnson, CP3, and a slew of firsts. Like just the San Antonio, like six firsts, seven firsts, whatever you do. And basically Philly just gets out of this whole thing. They do the super tank and they sell high on Maxi knowing they have McCain. This will never happen. I just want to do it as a thought experiment. Maxi, Wemby.

That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. San Antonio overpays. They pay 140 cents on the dollar, 170 cents on the dollar with all the extra picks they have just with the end game being Maxie, Castle, Wemby, Fissel, and this is our team going forward.

It'll never happen. You kind of like this one. I love it. Yeah. I mean, I'm into it. It's kind of like the same reason why I liked Reed Shepard for them in the draft because I want that shooting smaller quick guard Speedy guy to pair with Victor. I mean, I know the Chris Paul stuff is working. I get it. It looks good

It's 40, but he moves so slow. He can't get into the pain anymore I think Wendy should be getting a lot more lob opportunities that he's been able to but that's cuz Chris Paul is very slow And he's not able to beat guys off the dribble and defense because defenses can just switch. You wouldn't be able to do that as much if it's Maxey or somebody like that. Would you still have Shepard over Castle with that pick? I think so. I think so. Really? I love Castle. I'm all in on that dude. I mean, it was so close for me between those guys. I think I had it, Shepard, Castle, Klingon. It was, you know, it's a one in one be. Who do you have number one in a redraft now?

Just throw all the teams out. Who do you think the best asset is? I don't know if I'd change that right at this point right now. I think I'd keep those three. Was it Reed Shepard's 49 point performance in the G League that won you over? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think he hasn't been better in Houston? I just think it's a lack of playing time. They just have too many guys. Yeah. I mean, who's he going to play over honestly? I kept all my stock. I haven't sold an ounce of Reed Shepard's stock, but I love Castle.

Yeah. Castle. Castle's awesome. I would take Castle first heading into the draft. I would take him first now. I love how competitive he is. I feel like he's getting better. I think physically in like four years, I think he's just going to be like, just a beast. I can't wait to see how he grows. If they like, let's say they got that maxi deal or whoever the small guard is.

Castle can be like your eguadala type to like Stephen Curry. Like he does, he does everything for your team. He can defend every position cut spot up screen, sometimes run pick and roll. He can defend every position. He can defend every position. He can defend every position. or Iguodala type to like Stephen Curry. Like he does everything for your team. He can defend every position, cut, spot up, screen, sometimes run pick and roll, handle the offense for you. Castle's just like a total true Swiss army knife

for that roster. I don't know, I love him. He's perfect with Victor, perfect for the Spurs. They're gonna look out at some point, there's gonna be a team going sideways that wants to rebuild and trades their expensive point guard. You know, could have three weeks ago you could have said maybe it's Sacramento, but they kind of read it to ship a little bit.

But at some point there's going to be somebody with some leverage and a team that is ready to to blow it up. Anyway, that trade's never happening. So don't aggregate it. Did you have a fake trade that's never happening, but you still were enchanted by it? Um, let's see on my list. Uh, I mean, I think most of mine, maybe you can say there's a chance.

So none of them, I would say are super crazy. Put them in the year saying a chance. All right. Let's move into trades. We could actually see happening, even though if they probably want, I'll get you. What's your first one? All right. First one, Orlando magic,

Anthony Simon's to the magic for Cole, Anthony, Jet Howard, and one first round pick going to the blazers. So you upgrade over Cole Anthony with Anthony Simon's younger guy as well. That still fits the roster for you moving forward in Orlando and Portland gets jet Howard. Maybe he turns into something, a future pick, and they get some salary relief as well. Since you're gonna have Cole Anthony, Jet Howard in pieces rather than that big Simon's deal

in the $25 million range. And Simon's has some Orlando connections, I think. Yes, he's from Florida. He's always been rumored as a possible magic thing. And for Portland, it's all like an all-in You know, let's get a full look at scoot scoots been better as of late. He showed signs of life That's part of signs of life. All right. Yeah, there's been life. That's part of it for Portland here It's like you have Simon's who's taking a lot of those touches. He's absorbing a lot of those minutes Cole Anthony

Great chemistry chemistry guy for the magic. That's one reason why you wouldn't wanna move him. But he could be that in Portland too. He could be the backup spark plug point guard. Simons is actually deserving of a bigger role. So I think he could get that with the magic that he can't get with Portland because you still need to invest in Scoot

if you're the Blazers despite all the ups and downs. I think what we've seen the last five, six games, which I've been monitoring very closely with the billups quotes to bill up seems like really fired up about them all of a sudden, but stuff's clicking, things are happening. They're starting to move the team toward him. They're also in the tanking situation. So it's perfect. Just let him make his mistakes.

But I'm with you. They probably, Simon's probably needs to go for the scoop piece I Don't know what he's worth So if you're saying like Orlando gives up a first that's gonna be a bottom half of the first round first unless It's this year's draft because their record isn't nearly as good as it would have been because of all the injuries so they have They own their own first the next six years. I would probably want this year's first from them if I traded Simons. Yeah, I think so too.

Going forward, they're probably going to be a top eight or nine team. So all right, that's a fun one. My first one. I want to get Cam Johnson, who's been floated around a lot and Brooklyn clearly wants to trade him. I've decided Detroit should be the team that gets him. And Detroit has the Tim Hardaway expiring. They have a weird situation with their pick because New York owns their pick. So it's like protected and it just keeps rolling over, but then you can't trade 2025 or 26, because eventually it'll be realized in 27. So I was thinking, I wonder how the Knicks would help them out and remove the protections

from the pick so that Detroit could trade this year's pick, try to get Cam Johnson and maybe that other than Knicks pick. Then I started thinking, you don't see teams do this as much, but what if the Knicks traded Mitchell Robinson to Detroit as part of the deal. And as part of the deal, they got this giant trade exception. And they forfeited their rights to the Detroit first. And they got Dayron Sharp back from the Nets. And they just got a backup center making $10 million less than Robinson. And then the Nets would be like, we'll give you D'Angelo Russell too.

He's available in the Knicks. They're going, no thanks. But is there something there where it could be a three team or not a two, the Knicks could get something out of it, cut some salary, create an exception. Maybe it's just cam Johnson for Tim Hardaway and a pick. And it's a later pick, but do you, is there something there? Cause I feel like there is, I would like the Pistons. I want to see them get better.

I mean, it's complicated So like I would kick with I'm just trying to figure out the salaries here. So Mitchell Robinson to be clear he's going to he's 14 million Detroit go actually take it because To Detroit because they're under the cat right? No, they have the cap. Yeah. Well if they're cam johnson, they won't be under the cap though. I did it in the trade machine and it all worked because uh, there's trade exception stuff too. Anyway, it could just be cam johnson and hard away in a pack and we make, we could make

it easier cause that works too. Um, but I mean, I'm intrigued. I mean, the, regardless of the surrounding pieces, the idea of Cam Johnson on the Pistons makes a lot of sense. I mean, that's a better Tim Hardaway, basically. Yes, that's the type of guy they should be going for, for sure. Like if it's an easier deal to make, then maybe. But like, I don't know about all the other pieces,

but Cam Johnson on the Pistons, yes, please. Like that's a good idea. I made it too complicated, but. Yes, like just simply that idea. I like yes I if I were the Knicks I'd be thinking of a way to dump Mitchell Robinson in a trade and get a cheaper big back And try to get some cap space some apron relief some luxury tax relief And some flexibility with some sort of trade exception would be my dreams. I have a Mitchell Robinson trade in part for that Let's hear it. I got the Knicks in the jazz

Mitchell Robinson Deuce McBride who would pain me to trade and precious to Chua for Colin Sexton Walker Kessler and a salary filler in speed by Kailuk. So in this case You'd be you you would do this deal if you're the Knicks knowing that Mitchell Robinson may not be coming back for the entire season And so you get Walker Kessler back to Phyllis and rule you get Colin Sexton as an upgrade over Deuce McBride I love Deuce I think Deuce is better than this is on tibet oh I mean Tom tibet oh barely plays him though he barely plays any other guys off the bench

So maybe you don't even make this deal for that reason knowing Tibs is gonna have Walker Kessler playing eight minutes a game and Sexton playing 15 even make this deal for that reason knowing Tibbs is going to have Walker Kessel playing eight minutes a game and Sexton playing 15. But maybe he would play some of those guys more. But so I think if you're the next something along those lines, I'd be wanting to get another center because as much as I really like precious Ochoa, I want a true five. I want another true rim protector next to cat because what they've been doing lately in the lineups have worked well, but they've barely played Kat with Achua. It's worked when they have. It's been really successful for that team,

but I want to see somebody that allows Kat to be in that role he was next to Go Bear in Minnesota. I know Achua doesn't offer the rim protection that say Walker Kessler could. So maybe I've made that deal too complicated and you trim it down to something like- No, I see what you're trying to do with it though. I just, if I'm Utah, why do I have to trade Kessler if I'm Utah is what I keep coming back to every time I see his name in trade rumors.

I mean, that's the case with a lot of guys. Like why trading this guy? Yeah, I'm sure you do want him. He's a young guy and a super cheap contract and he produces and he protects the rim. Why do I have to trade them? Like they're probably, I would assume they're going to try to be good next year or try to be better. How many years in a row can you throw away? Yeah, there's something there. I think the Knicks have to think that way.

How can they pack extra bill? They get to go get BYU's AJ Devonsa one more year of being crappy. Oh, you think they're throwing away another one. One more year. Just one more year for Utah. Where's the bank? I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah.

I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah.

I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's one more year for Utah. I think it's in next year's class that could be a number one quality pick. So I think it's one more year for Utah. Where's the Bansa and the Brooklyn and the Brockton rankings right now? It's gotta be number one. Haggar's gotta be one, right? Oh, I mean, right today, like current living. All time, it's rising.

All time, yes, the Bansa's gotta prove it. Was it Rocky Marciano from Brooklyn, or Brockton? Yeah, over my shoulder, these two bobbleheads. I got Marvin Hagler and Rocky Marciano. So Marciano and Hagler are one, too. All time. Yeah, they're one, too, without a doubt. I need to take a break before I throw this next trade at you, so we're taking a quick break.

With TD Direct Investing, new and existing clients could get 1% cash back. Great, that's 1% closer to being part of the 1%. Maybe, but definitely 100% closer to getting 1% cash back with TD Direct Investing. Conditions apply. Offer ends January 31st, 2025. Visit td.com slash DI Offer to learn more. All right. Coming back. I'm glad you're sitting down. Take a deep breath. What if San Antonio traded for Jordan P and Jonas Valanchinus and gave up Jones and

Collins and her first round pick and kind of dabbled in getting better, but didn't really do it and didn't really give up anything. And if you're watched and you're like, this is great. Now we got rid of the one guy who can actually win games for us. We got rid of a center that keeps getting mentioned in these trades. We know what happens with these centers. They always end up going for second round picks. Nobody gives up a first round pick for the $9 million pretty good center.

But if you're San Antonio and you could add just Jordan pool and Valencian is for nothing. Like basically nothing. Why wouldn't you do that? So with Jordan pool, Bill. Yeah, let's hear it. Throughout his entire basketball life, he's been a near 90% guy from the free throw line. He's had touch near the basket on floaters,

but he's never been a consistent three point shooter until this season. 25 years old, over 40% from three for the first time in his entire career after he was a below 34% guy. What if this is the new Jordan pool? What if you figure it out? The 2022 finals, Jordan pool is really Jordan pool and Draymond green just punched it out of them for two years.

I think he's worth taking our it's this year and the next two on his contract. He's overpaid. There's no question, but if you're San Antonio, what do you care? You're not spending that much money anyway. And for pool, like it's not like, uh, you have him till he's 27, 28 years old. So it's not a long-term commitment. I think he's been legitimately good this year. I actually like watching him on the wizards this year. Right? The wizards went from one of the worst watchers in the league last year to, oh, wait a minute, they're pretty fun. There's this, like, Poole's been really good.

Alex Sarr is getting better. They've been a fun team to watch. Well, you can tell who's not watching the Wizards when people are like, what if they can get Kyle Kuzma? And it's like, you obviously haven't watched a Wizards game this year. He's been one of the worst players of the league. Nobody wants Kyle Kuzma. Kuzma has not been good.

But Poole, I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued because for a long time, that's one. So out of this one. Kuzma has not been good, but but pool I'm intrigued I'm intrigued because for a long time that you like this one. This might be the first time we've fully agreed I like this one because pools the type of guy that I think is worth a swing like for the for the spurs These guys I don't want to get when they first drafted when be Bill. I was thinking oh, they should accelerate They should go after Brooke Lopez and have another big they should go after a veteran and really support Victor and be good right away. I've backed off that the last year and a half. I want them instead to take these short-term guys

who are swings. I'd be open to Zion, Jordan Poole types, guys like that who help you be competitive, but you're not having to overspend all of your future rascals. Cause the time you're going to be really wanting to trade in those assets, like the two future picks you got from Minnesota, the picks you have from the Hawks that's going to be in the next two, three, four years.

And that range when Victor's into his mid twenties, that's when it's time to go build and try to go forward and take those really big swings on proven guys. At this point. I still think you want to be, but I still think you want to be competitive in a real way now. Competitive. Which is what Preston did with OKC the last couple years, right?

Yes. Just because he lucked out in a bunch of different ways, but his skill as a GM, but also that guy's blasphemy may be faster than he thought. But all that stuff was good for them. Those, those games that OKC played the last two years led to this year. I think if you're San Antonio, you want to start thinking that way. Totally.

Can this year and next year lead to two years from now, we're a 60 win team. And they are competitive. They're just slightly below 500. They're really great when Victor's on the floor. So they're tough at the end of games. They, they have the same problem Houston has, where it's, you know, if he's not getting the ball in the right spots, it's really,

or Vasell is really the only other one I kind of trust with the ball. See, he's too old now. And Vasell's been disappointing this season too. No, he has, but I mean, at least I feel like he can get the shot that he wants. I don't know if it's going in. But it's really hard for them to create offense

down the stretch. And Jordan Poole no issues creating his own shot. Jordan Poole no issues. I don't know if it's going in, but it's really hard for them to create offense down the stretch and Jordan pool No, she's creating Jordan pool. No issues. I was alright. So we're aligned on that one. I would love to see them Do I like it? I'm into it. That's a good creative idea. I had a thought about Jordan pool as a target for the Spurs That's a good one. Do your Zion one. You must have a Zion to the Spurs one I don't I don't have a Zion to the Spurs one I was just intrigued by the idea after you mentioned the Pelican strides. I'm all in. I mean, there's multiple ways that could go.

I don't know how many picks would have to be involved, but I think putting Zion, I talked about this a couple of weeks ago, rolling the dice with Zion, with that team, with the spotlight of being Wemby's teammate, different organization, a lot of history, titles, Tim Duncan sitting there courtside every once in a while. I would just do it. Can I give you a three way of just kind of, it's like a Yankee swap and Christmas? Sure. Milwaukee gets Tobias Harris making $25.3 million this year on, on the

books for next year too. Minnesota gets Chris Middleton 31.7 million. Detroit gets Julius Randall 31.7 million. Detroit gets Julius Randall, 33.1 million. This actually works in the trade machine. So Detroit's taking almost $8 million extra salary to quote unquote upgrade from Harris to Randall, maybe for this year, maybe this year and next year, if he opts in. Minnesota is saving a little money and getting rid of the Julius Randall

issue that's kind of haunted them all season, even though I think he's a good basketball player, just doesn't make sense for them. So they would say 1.6 million, which with the tax becomes like 20 million or some crazy number and just kind of people passing stuff around. I kind of like it. And Milwaukee saving money. Um, but I kind of liked that they had Randall and Detroit, because even Monday, everyone was going nuts about Cade. Cade had 10 turnovers in that game.

He has the ball all the time. You know, he kind of needs one more person. You know, I don't want Randall and Detroit. So you don't want Randall anywhere. Is there a team you want Randall? Brooklyn. So you think he's become a good stats, bad team guy. Yeah, I think that's exactly what he is.

I mean, it's crazy to say that about a dude who was two time all NBA and he's had some really good seasons, but he's just been horrible for Minnesota this year. And he's also had times where he was horrible for the Knicks. And so you have this really good thing going right now with the Pistons. I know Cade's not perfect yet, but I don't want Randall clog in the lane for Cade when things are finally opening up for him and he's looking like a borderline all NBA guy. But why do you like it for the other teams though?

I'm just curious. Um, I like saving money if I'm Milwaukee and I like saving a little money if I'm Minnesota and getting rid of the Randall piece and for Detroit, I think the bet would just be Randall was 24 and 10 and was an all NBA forward, you know, a couple of times for the Knicks and got put in one of the worst possible situations in Minnesota for him as a basketball player, where it just doesn't make sense. Maybe there's an actual asset here. Or is that in part his fault that it's not working perfectly?

Oh, it's definitely partly his fault because he doesn't know how to play any other way. But that's the thing. It's like, well, maybe on a different team, there's something more here. I would think about it. But I also think that Troy probably has better moves. Like I like Cam Johnson for that more than Randall.

But Randall's not, to me he's not a sunk cost. Like Beal is a sunk cost to me. I don't see a scenario where he's worth that money ever again. Randall, I'm not positive. So I'm sure you do too. I know some Knicks fans who still swear by Randall and we're like, guy's getting a bad rap.

He was really good for us. Those people are out there. Then there's other Knicks fans who can't stand him. Give me a trade. All right, I got a small one. This is a son's one. Yousef Nurkic and one of the first you got in that Utah deal to the Blazers for Robert Williams.

Send Nurk back to Portland, get Timelord, obviously injury prone, but he's a lob guy, fits the Nick Richards profile. Worth the upside swing. And he makes way less money than Nurgich. Yes. So you're saving money and you're getting a guy who probably has to throw something else in there to make this salary is work, work, work, salary wise. Nurgich for Williams.

Oh yeah, it does. I mean, I would do it just to get off the Nurgich money next year and save the luxury tax. Nurgich is, I don't know if he's not the worst contract in the league, but when you think about he's one of the most untradable, I think it was hilarious. Yeah. It was hilarious earlier in the year when the sons fans were thinking that they could turn Nerkic into Vucevic somehow.

It's like, what planet are you on? Nerkic has been awful. Nobody wants Nerkic. Now they traded for Nick Richards and he doesn't play at all. So I would do that for both teams because Nurkic had, the only thing is if you're trading a center, if I'm Portland,

do I want to get a center back? Is it worth it just to get a random pick? Is there a way to make that a three-way deal where Nurkic goes somewhere else? Maybe Nurkic comes off the bench for you behind Klingon, something like that. But then you have the Aitken issue as well. But I want to see them go with two bigs sometimes. I'd like to see them try that out more often.

I think Billups is resistant to doing that. But at least Nurkic is a guy. He's a vet. Maybe he plays a little bit off the bench for you, but being back in Portland, maybe he won't pout like he is in Phoenix right now. Is Aiden a trade piece to you in any way? I don't think so.

So he's another one. I agree with you. He's been productive, but who's trading for him at 30 plus million dollars? So many teams have fives right now. I don't think there's many teams out there that would want a five making his money with how inconsistent he is. Yeah, I don't I don't know the team. Not sure.

New Orleans made sense a little bit before the season, but not so much right now. Yeah, not like they're 12 and 32. Yes. They're the only team that I really had thought of before the season. At this point, I don't see something there for him. I have one more big trade. So give me one more from you before I do my big one. Let's see, I got one right here. I got a Cam Johnson one.

I mentioned this on my podcast with Bobby Marks earlier in the week and he was iffy on it. So I'm curious about your thoughts. Cam Johnson to the Cavs for Isaac Okoro, rookie Jalen Tyson, the Yang's contract and their unprotected 2031 first. Bobby was iffy on it because the Cavs, you could argue, and I think his reason is pretty sound here. You could argue the Cavs should try to get under the luxury

tax this year to not get that clock started. So you become a team on over the tax multiple years in a row. Once Mobley has to be reassigned and all these guys deals come up. And so Bobby was like, maybe you go the other way and try to trade a guy to get under the tax. I think that makes sense. At the same time, Cam Johnson is very clearly an upgrade

over Isaac Okoro. He adds dynamic shooting ability to your team when you're on a 71 pace. This could be your chance to go for it. This could be the only year, who knows what's gonna happen in the future. So I like the idea of at least going for it this year and trying to roll the dice with somebody like Cam Johnson

adding more upside to your team. I don't like it. And I'll tell you why. I think if that team loses in the playoffs, it's gonna be because of their inability to guard wings. Right? Cam Johnson's not helping me with that. So if I'm using my last trade chip,

and I agree, their shooting's great, that always helps. But I don't think he's playing crunch time for them because now I have Garland out there and Cam Johnson. How, like if I'm playing Tatum and Brown, who's guarding Tatum and Brown if I'm playing those guys together? So I feel like if they're going to do a trade like that

and go into the major attacks, I need somebody who can potentially guard Jason Tatum in the last five minutes of a game six in Boston. And I don't think it's Cam Johnson. That would be my counter. I don't know who it is though that you can go get. I mean, like, Isaac Okoro is a better defender, but he also is somebody that you're gonna be helping off of

on defense. It's always a push-pull with these guys. So for the Cavs, you have limited assets. Well, why do they have to do anything? They're playing really well. Like, I guess that's my other question with them is like, they seem like they all love playing with each other and they're having a great season.

Like, sometimes continuity is the move, right? Yep, sometimes it is. And sometimes you regret not trying to add another piece. It can go both ways. I think it depends. Like, Cain Johnson's a good guy. I think he could fit into any locker room flawlessly. I don't think it'd be an issue.

He's having a great season. Yeah, he's been great. So I just think if you're talking about who defends Tatum, who defends Brown, it's hard to defend those guys, all these great players at that level anyway, unless you have a truly elite. Maybe it's easy to friend Jalen Brown lately. Right now it is. Yeah.

Hey, he's going to try that follow-away again for the foul line, that'd be great. Try that one more time. Drive to the middle of the floor with your left hand again. But I think for the Cavs, if you're talking about that matchup issue, I mean, you do have Dean Wade, who's been really good defensively for you, but even then, Dean Wade alone isn't stopping those guys,

it's having Evan Mobley shade over and help, it's having Jared Allen presence at the basket. It's Donovan Mitchell helping at the nail and shading help over. Like it's more than one guy. So I don't think Cam Johnson's some liability by any means. He's just an average defender, but he's definitely somebody they would pick on

compared to the others. And by the way, if you're picking on anybody, like if it's an end game lineup, it's Garland. It's Garland still. No matter what. But now I have two guys I can pick on. I'm using Cam's an end game lineup, it's Garland. It's Garland still. No, now I have two guys I can pick on. I'm using Cam Johnson's guy to set the screen for Garland. And it's like a feast now.

Could be. It's an interesting one because on the other hand, you could say, well, we're just going to outscore everybody. Now we have Cam Johnson. We're scoring 120 points a game and we'll figure out how to get some stops. I'd be really scared to do that much if I was Cleveland because it seems like one of the few teams we have right now that actually really likes playing with each other.

How many teams when you watch these games, how many teams actually seem like they all like each other? It's less than five. Okay, see, okay, see 100%. They're the number one version of that. Cleveland, I mean, obviously one and two, both one seeds, they happen also. Boston really likes each other, even though they're not playing that well.

I'd put them on that list. They're just bored. I think Boston's bored right now. No question. Do you have another one? Cause I have one big one. Is there another one you want to throw? Uh, go with your big one. You ready for the big one? I got my, I got my favorite ones out. Yeah. It's an Anthony Davis trade.

And the thinking is we've gone as far as we can go. We've done everything we could for you, LeBron. You've been here since 2018. We won a title together. We went, got your guy, Anthony Davis. We drafted your son and gave him a no cut contract. Every time you've pushed us to do something, we've done it, including the Russell Westbrook trade, which you were hands off after that happened. We've taken

this as far as we can go, and we're not going to mortgage anymore the future for this because for the first time ever, the Quippers have a better arena than us and probably a better team and there's something cool happening with team and there's something cool happening with them and there's nothing cool happening with us and we're not gonna be held hostage by this anymore. The story in sports decades after decades is people trying to appease aging superstars. It never ends well. We're not gonna do it. We're gonna zag the other way. We're gonna trade Anthony Davis to the Gold State Warriors. And we're gonna to get back your buddy, Draymond green shooters, expiring

comminga Jackson Davis golden states, 25 and 27 first and a 20, 2029 pick swap that's LA's call we're cashing in. What do you think? Are you sure this is the Lakers going the other way? Draymond's still a really good defender. It's a pretty good trade. They're getting Draymond, Schroeder, Kaminga. They get to roll dice with them. Jackson Davis.

And if you're the Warriors, you still have enough left and you're going to build around Davis and Curry going down the stretch. And you could probably get creative with some other moves. It's kind of fun. I don't think the Warriors do it, but I'm intrigued. Too many picks? Yeah. Too many picks and. All right.

So let's just say that this year's number one, which would be in the middle of the draft and a 27 unprotected first. So now I don't think the Lakers do it now. You think Steph would break up? Let's say the Warriors are in a position there. No to blowing it up. No to, you know, trading Steph and Draymond this summer. Right. Let's just say that not going to do that.

Do you think Steph would be willing to break up with Draymond in the scenario? I think the only team that you could talk yourself into this being a realistic scenario is the Lakers. Cause Draymond get to live in Los Angeles and play with LeBron. Draymond might want it to happen. Draymond might be like, this sounds great. I've always wanted to be on the Lakers. Let's, let's do it. I also think it's way harder to find an Anthony Davis trade that makes sense than people realize. Cause I see, I have people in my life, it's time to trade Davis.

It's like, where? Like you're not trading me Houston. They can't even trade Shangoon this year. Like it would have to be like this summer. Right. And at that point, LeBron's 41 and you know, people probably know you go around the league, you would have said in the past, oh, that maybe they get Carl Anthony Towns and some picks for him, but Carl Anthony Towns is playing great.

You know, and you go around the league. I think it's really hard to find the right trade for him that he'd be excited about to put him on a team that could actually win a title. Like could it be Oklahoma city? No, they're not. Mortgaging everything for, for Davis when they have Shays big contract coming up and they got to pay Jaylen Williams soon and they're going to have to play Chet Holmgren soon and like, and they're not trading Chet for him so you

go through all the teams and I think it's way harder to figure out I even was like oh Orlando will be a good one go look at their contracts what's the Orlando trade they can barely even match all the contracts to get to where AD is so I go and say was the only one that made sense Orlando's interesting though if they were to give Isaac who's like 24 million I'm doing a student of the top my cool Anthony's like 12 and then Trade yeah, maybe that gets you there Orlando would be interesting too The problem is like the way the league is now with these different rules

It's really hard to make like a five-for-one right you need that one Awesome 28 million dollar contract that you can put in a trade for one, right? You need that one awesome $28 million contract that you can put in a trade like that and they just don't have it. So they could put, you know, they could put, you said, what'd you say, Cole Anthony? Something like that. I'm pulling up a trading machine right now.

Yeah, I'm looking at SpotTrack. Isaac at 25, Anthony at 12.9, and then Jett Howard at 5.3. I think Caldwell Pope has to be in it. Right. I'm not sure if he has. Oh, I think makes 25 this year. That is pretty high. 25.

It would work. Yeah. 80 80 is 42 43.2 million dollars. And then for Isaac, Anthony and Jet Howard, those guys are. Well, wouldn't Carter have to be in that trade though? No, I mean, it wouldn't have to be like finance wise. He wouldn't have to be like you. You could put him in there instead of Cole Anthony, potentially, I think.

It's so Rudy on this. No, no, no. You can't. You can't do Wendell Carter. You could do Wendell Carter. No, you can't. Rudy on this room or no, I can't. Carter, Carter has a trade. Surrey, pop on for a second.

Let's talk this out. What's up? You knew this was coming. What's up Surrity? All right. 80 for Isaac, Anthony and Howard and then like a. No, let's put Carter in there. I think I don't know.

You cannot, you cannot. You can't trade Carter. Carter could not be traded this season. Oh, cause he had the extension. Yes. He can't be traded. Yeah. What do you think Surrity? I think about it. I mean, I've been one of the, I feel like,

I feel like you, when we were in Denver, that we were talking about that, I was like the king of the like, yeah, Lakers should trade AD. Like, what's the point? Like get what you can get for them. I never even thought of this as a possibility. I mean, it's not really what they need, but just imagine that team. Like that could, that has like all time defensive capabilities. That would be absurd. I mean, just go all in on your identity. I'd be a little bit worried about, you know, I don't know. He just, the injury concerns and the age profile stuff, but

it wouldn't be kind of fun. Um, so you'd have to do 25, 27, 29, and 31. I think you'd have to do four unprotected first. Probably throw in the Denver first that you have that rolls over and then maybe a swap. Like how many, how many picks is that KOC? I mean, you just listen to it. Five, six.

Do you want to give all those picks for 80? I think, I think that's where I say no. I think that's where I say no. Because, you know, is the timeline right? Like when in two years, like they're not winning E's this year. Maybe next year they could be a top three team and see about the health situation. But like it feels like they're going in completely opposite directions.

Can I pause button you right now? Yeah, go ahead. You'd have a starting frontline of of a D. No hello and Franz The timeline is like now when all those guys come back. I don't want to play that team You're right see that team in a playoff series. The timeline is this year to do that. I Want to do it if it doesn't work out you're kind of screwed right you I want to do it for all those picks. Yeah,? I'd be cheap there if I'm the magic. Like 80s, 31 right now.

He's got four years left until he's 34, 35 years old. And he's going to be making almost $60 million the next three years. KOC, this is the part where I remind you that the Knicks traded five first round picks for Mikael Bridges. Oh, I know. Davis is like the 11th best guy in the league. I know. That's the bar. I know that's the bar Yeah, I think it has to be five picks. Hmm. I Think I'd say no, I think I'm saying wow and just wait for something else to happen

Cuz you know, but here's the one thing sir Rudy right like what is that next thing because you're right But let's say there's a player that any time a player that becomes available who's better than ad next thing because you're right. But let's say there's a player that any time a player that becomes available, who's better than a D, it's going to be Utah or the Thunder or the Spurs, the other Rockets, the Nets, these teams that have more picks and quantity and quality like the magic, right? The Rockets can trade for it this summer. They were shangling and a bunch of stuff and go get them.

And yes, exactly. So all these other teams have more quantity and quality that the magic can't wait for that top five guys They're jumping the line and grabbing them now. Yep. Yeah, but I think I'm okay long term with like, you know Let those guys go Go big fish hunting and we'll just make moves around the edges and kind of like because you got the two guys You've got the guys that matter, you know, like, uh, I, I, so I don't, I just disagree with you. It would be a better case if you were like, I'm not sure we should trade for Anthony Davis, who was super injury prone during the year that Palo and Franz both suffered the exact

same injury and Mo Vondra got hurt and Suggs got hurt. We do not, we do not want to bring our comments to carbon to Anthony Davis. Make sure the obliques are iced up for every game. I know. Yeah. What's Anthony Davis's oblique situation? Is it okay? Oh my God. He's just for me, those guys, I mean like strains it. Um, I Orlando is the only other one I went through everybody else. I just, you know, there's like Sacramento,

if you could do like a Sabonis Davis like that, but I don't know where that gets either team, you know? I think it's Orlando. I like Golden State. I like the Golden State one. It feels like that's a timeline match thing that just kind of works out. I will say this, that trade I laid out,

if that actually happened, would be one of the most fun trade moments of the 21st century. There's so much going on in that trade in all different directions that we, it just feels like we would talk about that for 10, 10 straight days. Thanks to Rudy. Thanks guys. KOC any last trades before we go? No, that's all I have listed Bill. That 81 has me thinking though. I'm a kid for the Lakers, Bill, you're right.

I don't think they're going to necessarily go the other way that you're proposing, but it's something they should at least think about. This week, I made the case writing the Warriors should blow it up because they're not going anywhere. Steph's declining. Draymond's declining. At least they're showing signs of it this year. It reminds me of the 2012-13 Celtics when KG and Pierce were still really good,

but they clearly were beginning to fall a little bit and they make the deal that leads to Tatum and Brown. And so I think the Warriors are in that spot where at least the front office and ownership should be thinking about it. And for the Lakers, obviously LeBron, I mean, LeBron's not the same guy. He's just not. He's still a great player, but he's not the same level player. And AD, who knows when the injuries will start perking back up again,

so they should think about it. I just think that Lakers roster's still worth at least exploring, adding more. But if the magic call up and offer you four firsts and two swaps, you gotta take that meeting and really think hard about it. Because if you do that, then that opens up your ability to say, oh, guess what?

We are open to LeBron trades. And then if you were to get something for LeBron too, suddenly you'd have the most picks in the NBA. And then you're the team that can go get some of it. But how many contenders, teams that actually have a chance to win the title are a realistic option for a 40 year old guy making 50 million a year with no trade clause. I can't find a single team. Even if you said like, oh Cleveland,

he wants to come back home. It's like if I'm Cleveland, do I want to? That's a pretty like aggressive No. Reshaking of the roster. I wouldn't do that. I want to do it without LeBron if I'm Cleveland. Yeah, well also like you have such a good thing, now you're bringing somebody who, you know, the two generations of guys in the league, like Revere, it's really hard for him to be like, all right, just set some picks and hit a couple corner threes for us,

like he's gonna have the ball. I don't know what the team is for him. So, and I don't think he wants to leave LA anyway, so it's not realistic. Davis as a trade is more realistic to me, but, um, I just don't the Lakers organization, I don't understand why they cow touted these guys. Maybe the sons for LeBron, somebody like that short flight away from LA instead of Jimmy Butler.

That now the Lakers are taking Beal. Like they don't want, I don't want to turn LeBron into Beal. No thank you. Also like if you're the Lakers and you trade LeBron, all of a sudden your games, like if you're going to actually rebuild or you're going to like blow it up or whatever, like there is still, people go to the games to see LeBron. He's one of the greatest players in the history of the league. Like that's still a draw and they're still in this mix where they seem relevant.

People don't actually watch basketball that much think they're still a contender. And there's an illusion of competitiveness that is to me, not real, but you at least have that once you, once you start blowing this up, now you're where you were in the mid 2010s. Why is that? Is that because of LeBron not being top two, top three anymore? Is that why, or is that more something about the supporting cast? Like why do you think that is?

Well, he's, I mean, he's 40. He's not the, not close to being the same guy that he used to be. He's still one of the 10 to 15 best guys, 80 you said 11th best or something like that. So if you still have two top 15 guys. But LeBron have two guys defense anymore I don't understand how anyone could put him in the top 12 to 15 at this point when so you don't have them up there. I don't I don't I would have them in the top 25 But I think Wow, I think it's really hard to to beat good teams

When you have multiple holes on defense like they have I think that's a fair statement when you have multiple holes on defense like they have. I think that's a fair statement. Like when they have, they're playing Reeves and Connect and LeBron all at the same time, it's like you can't play defense that way. So, and I'm not, what position is the perfect position for him ideally, right? It's the four.

And then you have Rui playing with him. Really you wanna have perimeter guys and you want shooting, but that would mean Lebron would have to guard bigger guys and rebound more and, and, you know, step up on that. And it just doesn't seem like he has enough in the tank to do that anymore. So they're in a weird conundrum of them because he gets his stats. You can catch the right night. He looks great, but I don't see it night to night.

And we get to the playoffs. It's every other game. You know? So if, like if I was the Lakers advisor, would either of us say like, you guys have a chance to make the finals with this team? You're one move away? I don't think they are.

They're two moves away from at least having a chance. Everyone's two moves away. Well, that's exactly why it's difficult for them. They're two moves away from having a chance and even then they're still not the favorite. I'm still not taking them in a series against OKC or Denver. I still think they're probably a second round out. Yeah.

Even if they do get Levine, even if they do get Kessler, but you'd have a better shot in that scenario, but I still want to pick them for all the reasons we're talking about. You would need so much luck with you. You'd need an OKC injury. You'd need something weird to happen with. you'd have to go down and there would have to be a dumb thing that happened with every team. I just think it can happen that like the warriors had a pretty good path in 2022

and like Kurt talked about recently and they, they win it all. Like it's not impossible to happen. Um, so that that's what they know way, but I do think, you know, if a team calls up for AD, it makes a significant offer. They need to be thinking about that. They have to. Who do you have in the finals right now? Still okay.

See in the West though, Denver really intrigues me just the way they're playing lately, like we talked about earlier with Ross stepping up and everything. Um, and Murray looks way better than he did four weeks ago. He looks way better. He looks more like himself. And then in the East, I'm still gonna take the Celtics for now, even though I think the shooting,

the shooting I'm worried about most, because like the, you know, some of the other stuff, I think they're just bored. This happens almost every December into January with them. But the shooting, they're closer to the middle of the pack and three point percentage this season. I wonder if there's some tired legs there. Drew Holliday has regressed as a shooter. Derek White has as of late and Jerry Lynn Brown looks like there's something off with him.

I worry there, but I'll still lean towards Boston right now over Cleveland. That may change by the end of the season though. Yeah, it's tough when you win the title. You go one of two ways. You can either come out the next season like a bad out of hell, or you just assume you could turn it on any time you want. And they've, they started out one way and I think they've settled into the other way where it's like, we're, we're fine. We're fine. I don't like that they don't have home court in the last two rounds, the way this is

shaken out though. I don't think that's nothing, you know, it's all fine until it's game six at home with the game seven in the other place. You're down three to two for the series and you fall behind by like nine in the second quarter and the fans are like, oh my God, like our season might. We'll see. I'd like to see them have one streak KOC because I think that's what separates the, the, the real teams from everybody else. Like these teams that could just rip off 11 straight, 12 straight last year, they were a 25 game winning streak threat for every month of the season. And that this year they can't play five good games in a row. Who, who worries you most besides Cleveland in the East?

Still Milwaukee. Milwaukee always cause he honest Orlando a little bit because of Giannis. Orlando a little bit. Because of the defense. I'm still like Orlando, I'm not just saying this to make Sarudis night. Orlando's just kind of hanging out over there with this crazy defense. They're not beating Boston.

They're offense, they're 30th and 3.30. I know, but even with those guys, their 30th and three point, they haven't had their guys. I know, but they even with those guys, they're offense isn't there yet. The defense scares me because this Celtics team can look really clumsy and really static. And the toilet ball offense can go into full effect.

And with all those guys they have, they've just guys to throw it, Tatum and Brown. And I don't like the way the guards on the Celtics have played for two months. You know, we're taping this before I go to the Quipper game tonight. And I'm going to the Laker game tomorrow. And I really want to see it in person.

Like are these guys, do they look different athletically? Is this just a funk that's going on? So I guess we'll find out. The Olympics may have been very bad for those guys. Very possible. White and Holliday having a long off season, a long playoffs. Something's off with those guys. That's where my concern is as well as with those guards and the

overall team shooting ability. And the Knicks obviously. I wouldn't look forward to seeing them in a series either because they have good basketball players and Brunson's really good and towns has been playing great. So, you know, I do think when you play that team for two weeks, a little easier to figure out. But you know, the East is way better. You think last year it was like a walk in the park, which wasn't their fault, but that's what it was. This year a little different.

Milwaukee, we'll see if they make one more move too. The team they have right now, I wouldn't be afraid of, but they're one move away from me being more afraid. Right. If they were to get Levine, they'd be really scary. That would be scary because he kills the Celtics. That would be one of those. All the Celtic fans would be like, oh no, they got that guy? Levine, Giannis would be beautiful together.

That would be incredible. Lopez has been great this year for them too. If they can subtract Portis and upgrade from Middleton, I think they're cooking. They get something there. All right. KOC, good to see you again. You can follow his podcast, subscribe, listen to it, and you can read him on Yahoo as well.

Great to see you. Great to see you too, Bill. Have a good night. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to KOC. Thanks to Kyle and Saruti and Gahal. Don't forget, you can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel and I will be back tomorrow night with yet another podcast.

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