The Bill Simmons Podcast - An NBA Mock Draft War Room With Kevin O’Connor, Jonathan Tjarks, and J. Kyle Mann

Episode Date: July 26, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O’Connor, Jonathan Tjarks, and J. Kyle Mann to discuss the upcoming NBA draft. They run through the lottery teams, fake trades, sleepers, and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin O’Connor, Jonathan Tjarks, and J. Kyle Mann Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ringer Films is premiering its first of six films in our Music Box series, Woodstock 99, Peace, Love, and Rage, on Friday, July 23rd on HBO. Woodstock 99 tells the story of the infamous music festival promoting unity and counterculture, but devolved into chaos and collapsed under the weight of its own ambition. Watch or stream Woodstock 99, Peace, Love, and Rage on HBO or HBO Max now. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks

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We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. New rewatchables coming on Monday night. We did The Bodyguard. me and Van Lathan. Just wanted to talk about Whitney, wanted to talk about the second most successful movie of 1992, a movie that is the most successful soundtrack ever, it was time. It was episode 198 of the rewatchables.

So that is going up on Monday night. That was a really fun one. I enjoyed that one. And speaking of fun things, we finally got to launch our Music Box series on HBO. Six documentaries about music that will be,

the other five will be running at the end of this year. But we ran our Woodstock 99 Peace, Love and Rage documentary directed by Garrett Price. Got great reviews. Very excited about that. People seem to really like it

and it is now available on HBO Max. It premiered on HBO, but if you have HBO Max, go watch it. It's less than two hours. You'll learn some stuff. The music is fascinating. The story is fascinating

and really proud of that doc. So go check that out. Don't forget to listen to the Ringer NBA podcast as well and Ryan Rossellos podcast because we have a lot of draft stuff this week. This is an unusually good draft because you have top tier guys, three or four depending on who's in your top tier.

A lot of trade possibilities. You have the Warriors trying to figure out what to do at seven and 14. You have OKC at six with a bunch of extra picks trying to decide if they want to trade up. So a lot of subplots. And what we want to do is we're going to do a little gimmick called the Mock Draft War Room, which I will explain after you hear from our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this middle Sunday afternoon, my time. We have a fun NBA draft gimmick coming.

J. Kyle Manning is here kevin o'connor is here both from the ringer jonathan sharks is going to join us in one second to be part of our little warm room gimmick that we're going to do team usa did anyone see it today koc did you see it i was not up that early after a late night of doing some writing draft stuff and all that did not see it live just watch the highlights another embarrassment bill and kyle you Did not see it live. Just watched the highlights. Another embarrassment, Bill. And Kyle, you didn't see it either. So this was the smartest move ever by Team USA to have their first stink bomb when nobody was awake. It's like a bad news drop.

Yeah, they did it on like Friday afternoon or something. I picked Slovenia 25 to 1. I thought that was a great bet. This France team was also pretty interesting. But just some classic bad coaching, it seemed like, with Durant gets four fouls in the first half. Again, I didn't see it. But they still had a chance to win.

They missed four straight threes in the final minute. And then the irony of ironies, Evan Fournier just lighting them up. Give him the max, Bill. The guy the Celtics traded for. The Celtics are probably having their hands in their face now, hoping that he's not going to be an Olympic hero. They also had Yavis Selly. Vincent Poirier was on that team too.

But to me, it's the roster construction. I just think in international basketball, you got to win with guards. You need two shooters and one big guy and you're good to go. And this team, like Dame, as awesome as he is, he's a top 11 guy,

but he's not the calm you down in international basketball, look for everybody else type guy. We got in trouble with this in 2004 with Marbury and Francis when we had, or Marbury and Iverson. I can't remember if Francis was on that team too, but it does seem like there's a specific way to do this. Charks, would you like this Olympic team more if it was just 24 and under or 23 and under, and we just got to root for, you know, we had both ball brothers on the team. Maybe Tatum is the lead guy. We have Cam Reddish and people like that.

Zion, would that be a more fun experience for you than just like this all-star team of like guys who wanted to be there, other guys that kind of got roped into it, and then a lot of guys who turned it down? I think for sure if there was continuity, like the LeBron Wade-Melo teams had like three runs together

were like 06, 08, 2010. At the very least, do that. Having guys come in every year is totally haphazard. It just makes kind of bad basketball. KOC, would you have wanted Cade Cunningham and Evan Mobley on this team? I mean, it's like we talked

about a couple weeks ago. It would have been nice to see some youth on this roster, right? Yeah. And I just, I don't know. The roster construction stinks. I thought it was funny

seeing some of the report earlier today about players not loving the Spursian style system that they were playing. It's just odd. I mean, it's just odd. You would think like you would,

the Spurs system takes years and years of experience to get it, have that chemistry. Run some pick and roll. Let's do some high pick and roll. Simplify things. Yeah, how about just copy what the other countries do? Because that's what works in international basketball and that's why we won in 08 in 2012

because we put thought into it. Is this Grant Hill's fault? Is he running things now because Colangelo stepped down? No, it's Colangelo's fingerprints are on this. Are you still running it? There's some Popovich kind of not sure if maybe this is the sphere for him. Kyle's nodding. You nodding at that?

I mean, I think it's mainly the roster construction, honestly. Like you said, that's the main thing you know whenever you're losing the the grumbling just starts to sort of try to find a place to you know to go i feel like so maybe that's why people are complaining it's just it's on paper you can look at it's just like we said it's it is very similar to the the hard lessons we learned of course that was a case of you know i guess it always is just kind of a case of what americans are willing to play like john was saying like you know we we've it always is just kind of a case of what Americans are willing to play. Like John was saying, like,

you know, we we've seen really fun, younger American teams go over that have been really fun to watch. Like just somebody who is, you just need a lot of ball movement. You need dribble creation, you need shooting. And we just have a lot of like on ball creators and not enough players that

are like just facilitators. Like Trey would have been good. I think, I think in these Olympics, Trey would have been good, I think, in these Olympics. Both ball brothers? KOC, it's like watching the Celtics offense all over again with a lot of one-on-one stuff, a lot of four guys standing around. I just don't personally like it,

and I don't want to talk about it anymore. I don't think they're going to win the gold medal. Here's what we're going to talk about. We have a fun gimmick for today. We have the NBA draft coming on Thursday. These are our guys, our three guys that are with me right now. They've studied this draft. They absorbed it. They've looked at it. They have opinions. They've shifted their opinions. So I'm going to pretend I

am the GM for each of the first 15 teams and Kyle and KOC and Charks are my war room. And we're going to go pick by pick. I'm going to impersonate the GM, which is going to be really fun when we get to David Griffin. I'm just telling you guys now. I'm going to be the GM. I'm going to ask you guys for your takes. And then I'm going to make my decision. I might ask you a couple of questions as well. So we're going to start here. The Pistons are on the clock at number one. I am running the Pistons. Wait, are you going to take on the personality traits? Like full on impersonate the GM?

Only a couple times Yeah, only a couple times Yeah, for the most part I'm going to be me as the GM for a day So the Pistons I got to say, as you know I was a little on the fence with Cade Cunningham As the surefire guaranteed number one I read this Mike Schmitz article

Did you guys read that on ESPN? Where he had YouTube clips of the 11 moves that Cade had that he thought were transferable in the NBA. And I watched each move. And by the end of it, I was like, all right, I kind of like it. I might be more in than I thought, even with the, you know,

I still think Evan Mobley is going to be a great player. But KFC, let's start with you. Well, I mean, I think... Kade is the guy. You haven't wavered, right? Sure. I haven't wavered there. I think you can love both. It's okay to love both Evan Mobley and Kade Cunningham. An argument for Kade Cunningham is not an argument against Evan Mobley.

And with Kade Cunningham here, he checks all the boxes as a shot creator. Like, where do you want to spend your money and invest your money in a potential max contract player in four years when his rookie deal is up i want him in a guy that can run my offense who can also be multi-positional on defense who can play make who can shoot off the dribble get to the basket and be a leader kade cunningham checks all of those boxes and he can play with your guy your hero killing hayes yes my hero killing hayes play together who nobody should give up on yet after his great defensive rookie season, solid playmaking season. He just needs to figure out how to score.

And Cade could help. Okay. Kyle, you're on board with that? We're taking Cade at one here? Yeah. I mean, I've been a Cade guy for quite a while now. I mean, I think that he has an extremely high floor. I mean, I'm not as sure about him being like balls to the wall,

like super superstar offensively in terms of like carrying the scoring load for a team, but I think he absolutely is the type of player that can level up in offense because, you know, we're the Detroit Pistons. Cade fits with our infrastructure and the roster that we have now, and I think he's going to make the pieces that we – he accomplishes two things. I think he's the best player on the board, number one, but he also is going to make all the players that we have

better instantly I think he's going to be a good player next year and make the Pistons roster better in the short term so Schmidt said he made a case that of basically the last 12 years of overall number one picks Cade has a chance to be the third best guy. And it was interesting to see the list of the picks, right? Zion and Anthony Davis, I think were surefire. We knew they were going to be great. Charks, he's not on that list, but where do you have him?

Like a level below, like a multi-time all-star? Is he an all-NBA guy for you? What's the ceiling for him? I think so. I mean, I think there are two legit franchise players in this draft. It's Cade and Mobley. Let me give the Mobley pitch though for one. Let's hear it. Why he should go. Okay. Number one. So the last two championships, Anthony Davis and Giannis. So I think the way the league is moving, if you can have a seven-footer who can protect the rim,

get his own shot, guard the pick and roll, and guard wings on space in the perimeter, those are the most valuable players where the league is moving. And that's Evan Mobley. Mobley gives you a chance to have that kind of elite, elite seven-footer. Plus, he's a better passer than both those guys. I'd say he has a higher feel for the game than AD and Giannis. And I think the biggest thing with Mobley right now is he's skinny. Remember all those pictures

of Giannis in the finals? They're like, look how much he's grown. Yes, an athletic seven-footer will add weight as he gets older. That's not super controversial. To me, Evan Mobley is going to be the best player in this draft. Yeah, it's almost like Bosh should be the one they're looking at for what Bosh looked like

when he came into the league versus what he looked like, you know, year four in Miami. All right, so let me ask you, because there's a couple teams I want to call before I make this pick. I personally like Mobley the most in this draft. I know it's not the perfect, like, I know Cade's a safer pick.

Cade wants to be in Detroit. You know, there's, there's, there's something to that. Detroit hasn't exactly been lights out the last 12 years, but, and he wants to go there and he seems like he's embraced it. I'm calling Houston just out of curiosity to see if they want to flip picks with me. What else am I getting? KOC, what else am I getting when I call Houston? I mean, you're trying to get an additional unprotected first round pick at the least. And this is another reason to take Cade, too. If you take Cade Cunningham, suddenly you do have the leverage to say, OK, Houston, we got him.

What are you going to give? Give it all up if you really want him that badly. So you're in a position if you take Cade to do that. So I don't know, at least one more unprotected first-round pick. But I'd want even more than that to move off of Cade Cunningham. But if you were Houston, what would you give up for Cade? What does Houston have that we want? To go from two to one. That's what I'm saying, other than the pick.

Well, they have those Brooklyn picks, right? Yeah, it would be just more draft equity that you would have. Like in the same way that Oklahoma City, you know, different circumstances, but having all those picks can come into play sometime down the line for moving up. And I think also the other side of it here for Detroit is what if, I mean, the name we haven't mentioned here is Jalen Green.

Well, so what if Houston's like, we're cool, we're going to get Green at two. Yes. We're not interested in flipping picks. We're going to get a guard that we want anyway. Exactly. So thanks anyway. But now let's go to number three and then in that case if they're leapfrogging to cleveland were to move up or something like that then we're really talking here the thing is though is for detroit let's say you really feel strongly about jalen green and you

have him number two on your board like no none of us here are really arguing for jalen green but there are people within the Pistons front office that really love Jalen Green. I heard he had an outstanding workout with the team recently. Just a terrific workout. Showed off his athleticism. Great interview. And then some of the people in the front office

who were all in on Cade are like, well, I mean, it's at least worth thinking about Jalen Green. So, I mean, we'll see what happens on Thursday. And I'd be shocked if they don't take Cade Cunningham. And he should be our pick here. Okay, my question for you. I gotta consider. KOC, if you were Houston, how much would you give up for Cade to go from two to one?

I'd give up multiple future picks because you have so many. You know, give a Brooklyn pick, give one of your own picks, maybe. So, unprotected next year, maybe Kevin Porter, too. Sure. I'm not going overboard, though. I'm not protecting next year. Maybe Kevin Porter, too. Sure. I'm not going overboard, though.

I've actually done my homework now. It seems like there's three guys that you're feeling really good about. And I don't know if I'm trading up for any of the three, because I think five years from now, you can make a case for any of the three. This isn't Anthony Davis in 2012. I think you can make a better case to go backwards and still get one of the three, this isn't Anthony Davis in 2012. I think you can make a better case to go backwards and still get one of the three at the three pick. And, you know, the caveat with Cleveland is to have these two guards, they have the Sexton situation, which is so weird. He's in all these trade rumors. I don't even know why you would give up real assets for him when you have to pay him.

And we've never seen him do really anything. Well Then the Garland thing, it just looks like the way it's going to play out is they would get Mobley. Great for them. But if I'm Detroit and I can move backwards and try to dangle Cade and see if that's something I look, this is all masturbatory because we know how this is going to go. It's going to go Cunningham one. It's going to go green too. And it's going to go Mobley three and we'll get to what Cleveland's going to go Cunningham one. It's going to go green two. And it's going to go Mobley three. And we'll get to what Cleveland's going to do in a second. So if I'm staying with this pick, Charks, just...

I'm not taking Mobley here, right? I have to take Cade or you want me to take Mobley? I would take Mobley. I don't care. Like, take the best player. Don't overthink this. And if you think you're the best player,'t overthink this and if you're the best player just go for it yeah what do you what do you think mobley's like implied mode of like elite offenses for him to

like leap to be like to move to the front of this conversation what do you think in the nba like you mentioned yannis like yannis transition getting to the rim things like that he doesn't he's not as twitchy and like as fast as Giannis. I mean, he moves really well. I'm just curious, like what you think. I think he can initiate offense. He could straight up in three or four years

have the ball at the free throw line and go to the rim and make the pass or the shot. I think that's coming for him. I'm not taking Mobley at one when I can get him at two or three.

So if he's my guy, I'm not, I'm not taking him one. I'm going backwards. And I don't think a two or three. So if he's my guy, I'm not taking him one. I'm going backwards. And I don't think Houston would be interested. So then I would have to try to entice Cleveland. Or the other option is if OKC can go from six to three, get to three, and then move up again from three to one.

They basically have to make two trades. KFC, I know you talked about this possibility, but what does it take for them to go from six to three? Probably quite a bit. I mean, into that top four, that's kind of the threshold. Most people consider the top four, you know, consensus top four with Jalen Green, Jalen Suggs. And of course, we talked about Evan Mobley and Cunningham. So there's, you know, multiple first round draft picks there. But with that said, the price in past years, we've seen the Luca,

Trey deal, Tatum, false, typically to move into the top five, the price is one extra first round draft pick. I would expect with the nature of this draft, it would be one plus. So maybe Kyle,

Kyle, should that change? Because we, the price for a superstar has basically doubled to triple depending on who we're talking about with picks. Right. But as KFC said, it's like, I can get Luca for cam radish and Trey young.

Basically I can, I can move up a couple of spots and I'm giving up one pick. That's it. If you're okay. See, why wouldn't you give up? You know, you give up two first to go from six to three, and then you give up another unprotected

first to go from three to one. And plus like they have those clipper picks that are getting tastier by the day. You have Kawhi's not even playing next year. Who knows what's going to happen with him in free agency. And they're the clippers. They're jinx. They have, should have a black cat at mid court. Um, I, I just feel like you at least have to kick the tires with okc as a two-part thing based on this whole what is what is a guy actually worth now because it's 200 cents on the dollar for anybody who has a chance to be a top 20 guy what do you think of that yeah i guess it just comes down to i don't know that there's as much as i like these guys at the top we were sharks and i read in this conversation the other day that like i think it was sharks but um as much as i like these guys all three of them are like high floor like i don't know that they're hitting like tippy

top like i would reset my whole franchise for maybe like i don't know i don't know how much they would like mobilize me to give up but i guess if if those picks that you were talking about if i want to just bundle a bunch of those that i'm sure aren't going to really be you know context changing kind of picks for me i would i would consider kicking the tires on it for if i'm okay see i guess you just start thinking about what what do they have that's really valuable that would really move the needle i mean would you rather have kade or would you rather have shay you know like compare like Shea against these guys. We're sure they're both.

Could that be? You can pull it off. Yeah. I guess that's the question. With KFC's guy Poco, the new big three. I think going back to what Bill said. Don't forget Dort. And Dort.

Big four. If James Harden is worth seven first round picks, why shouldn't Cade be worth four? Right? Just half as much. If Paul George is worth seven first round picks. Why shouldn't KMO be worth four, right? Just half as much. If Paul George is worth six first round picks, then three to four picks to me seems not unreasonable for a top two prospect.

This happens in football sometimes where we think we know who one and two is and then the draft really starts at three. And you saw it this year where the Niners paid a pretty premium price to move up to three and then have taken Trey Lance, who was the third quarterback taken. But I do wonder, I think it's going to go Cunningham and then Green. And now Cleveland's at the clock at three. And I do think a lot of people are going

to make a run at that pick. Cleveland, they don't really know what their team is. I don't think they have a specific direction. And if you could overwhelm them with picks, we'll see. So here's what I'm going to do, Charks, because we didn't mention this. I'm a little worried about Moby being represented by Wasserman and the whole Detroit piece of is. Arn Talum used to be there. I don't know if they're happy with potentially going to the Pistons,

whereas Cade Cunningham's like, I want to be a Piston. I'm down. I just watched the bad boys 30 for 33. Take me. I'm ready to go. So I think I'm going to be a piston. I'm down. I just watched the bad boys 30 for 33. Take me. I'm ready to go. So I, I think I'm going to be a coward and I'm going to take Cunningham. Also, it's going to be way more fun to have Moby continue to go. All right. We are going to take a quick break and then Houston Rockets number two. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance.

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All right, rockets are up. I'm going to be their GM who managed to trade away James Harden for a bunch of picks that might not even be worth it. But at least now I can point to Jalen Green and I can say, I have this guy, he's super explosive. I'm just, I'm Raphael Stone. I'm just trying to keep my job. I don't want to take Mobley over Green and then have Green be this exciting electric guy green he's gonna take time he's like a plant you're gonna have to water him for a couple years nobody's gonna know if he's good

he's gonna help me be crappy this year too i can potentially have another pick do they have their own first next year i can't remember next two years then they lose all next so they have a two year window to have their picks. So I'm leaning toward green because it helps me keep my job. Charks, you hate this. You want me to take Mobley. I mean, you keep your job by drafting the best player. And if, like

to me, either way, whoever you draft this year at two is not going to help you improve your team that much. You're going to be bad. I wouldn't worry too much about that. I mean, green's really good, but to me, I would say it's Caden Mobley 1-2. To me, Green's closer to Jalen Suggs

at 4 than Mobley at 2, if I'm looking at the big board. What do you have, Kyle? I think you could easily make that argument because of the two-way impact thing is what I think the argument for separating Caden Mobley above those guys. I do think that the Green- the green sucks thing is pretty close.

And I agree, too. I mean, could you play Mobley? And like Christian Wood this year started playing five for the first time, so we know he's interchangeable on that front. We know he can space some, could potentially play them together. But also, Mobley's a long-term play where you don't necessarily have to. Nothing is set for Houston. So, I mean, I would lean towards Mobley here just for that reason,

even though, you know, I've spent a lot of time lately watching Jalen Green. Like, I think that you're right. I think that he definitely is the type of player. He's not like a floor-raising type of player. He's going to take him a while to become, like, comfortable with, like, NBA-level playmaking and scoring and balancing those two things. He's skinny. A lot of things have got to play out.

That's true for Mobley, too. It's really close for me, but I lean Mobley here just because of the two-way impact. I think he could be defensively really special. Kyle, you said how he's not a floor-raising player, but Jalen Green could be a ceiling-raising player. And I think that's the appeal with him. And I was talking with somebody last week who said who said to me that we're just speculating here he's like what if houston's floating all the stuff out there about kade cunningham just because they don't want to

choice to know that they actually want jalen green and that they want him to be there at number two just speculation they're just two people talking but it's interesting because everything you hear about jalen green like kyle i thought like your video you did about him was great and i agree with like the take that kyle had in the video about jalen green where you said likely you know top 20 25 player that's what you hope for right that's a great player in the nba today with how much how deep it is but with jalen green though elite athleticism elite work ethic showed improvement over the course of the g league season as a defender as a passer and that's the type of progress you want to see and I think with him he he can be down the line the type of guy who's your primary bucket getter but I think the

playmaking potential is pretty there too so maybe he's not going to be a great defensive player like an Evan Mobley but I do see Jalen Green as a guy that sometime down the line could be the real centerpiece of your offense as a high fly sometime down the line could be the real centerpiece of your offense as a high flyer who can shoot like hell from the perimeter. So I'm going with Jalen Green here and Evan Mobley is tough to pass on, but I just love the fit in addition to just his elite upside. Charts on the ESPN top 100 from 2020, the top recruits heading into college. Jalen Green was one. Cade Cunningham was two. Evan Mobley was three. And then Kaminga Scottie Barnes. So Green doesn't go to college, does like the atraditional thing, actually impressed people in the G League. He's six

foot five. He seems like he has all of the prototypes of what you would want as an elite two guard, a position that there's really not that many great two guards anymore, so he could immediately have a chance to be a top three guy at that position. And yet, I want to take Mobley. You're with me on Mobley, right, Sharks? 100%.

Yeah, I mean, I think Green is great, but 6'5", two guards who aren't primary ball handlers, who have to gain weight to be good defensively, like there are just fewer avenues for him to impact the game than a seven-footer who's already great defensively, who I think is a better passer than Green right now, who's got pretty good scoring instincts himself and near the basket.

It's just like, if I'm going to gamble on a six-foot-five guy versus a seven-foot guy, I'm going to go with a 6'5 guy versus a 7' guy, I'm going to go with the size. If the size has got speed and skill as well. KOC, in your draft guide for Jalen Green, it said shades of Zach Levine, career loser last time I checked.

Haven't seen him in the playoffs a lot. Bradley Beal, like him as well, career loser as he got past the second round. He had some good early years with the Wizards, yeah. Yeah, I say career loser in the most pleasant way possible. I'm just saying like he has not, whatever he does has not translated to Final Four. Whereas like I think about Mobley and I think about what I saw in the finals.

And one of the biggest reasons the Bucks won is because when Chris Paul got the switch he wanted, all of a sudden Giannis was on him. Giannis could actually be like, cool, you're not doing Chris Paul stuff against me because I'm Giannis. I don't know if Mobley can get there defensively, but I do think that's where the league has shifted where you need one guy like that. And I just think he's going to be really good. If my reason not to take him is I have Christian Wood, that's not a good reason. So I have, uh, I have Mobley. I'm taking Mobley for the Rockets. I think it's the smartest pick, safest pick. I just think he's going to be really good. And I don't quite have the balls to take him first, but, um, but there you go. All right.

So that leaves the Cavs. So we're now screwed. Here's another reason to take Mobley second with Houston because if you're the Cavs, you're like, oh no, we thought we were getting Mobley. And then all these other teams were like, oh shit, we thought we were going to trade up to three and try to fleece Mobley from the Cavs. That's out the window as well. So now they're sitting there.

They have just a bunch of guards and power forwards. It's one of the weirdest rosters in the league. Kevin Love's like, I've had the strained calf for three years, and I have to leave Team USA to do more rehab on it. He's 32. It's like he's 45. I don't know what you're looking at if you're Cleveland, but I think you have to take Green, right?

Is there anybody else here? You have to take Green. I think you could still potentially trade the pick. There are teams that would be very, very happy to try to trade up and get Jalen Green. So you still have some trade leverage there if you're Cleveland. Or you could also try to move up one spot with Houston too. Five and eight for three is not a realistic trade

if Green is the guy, right? I need more from Orlando than 5-8 for 3. I would think so. If I was the Matthew Judd in the second, I wouldn't even think twice. What else would be in that trade, Kyle? 5-8, the rights to Markel Fultz's autobiography.

Could you pry Chuma from them or somebody like that? I mean, yeah, I mean, I like, that's an interesting R.J. Hampton. yeah, I mean, I like that. That's an interesting RJ Hampton. He's already going to be bouncing around that much. They should just take green.

Yeah, I think they should. So we're taking green at three. We're delighted. And I think Toronto who we're about to get to, I do think Toronto was sniffing around trying to get up there because everyone's like, it's a top four. It feels like it's a top three and then a slight

infinitesimal drop off and then Suggs in his own kind of little mini tear because I don't think he's on the level of the other. I really like Suggs, but I don't feel like he's on the level. All right, so we have the Cavs. That was easy. Who is the Cavs GM right now? I can't remember. Kobe Altman. Oh, rough stretch for

Kobe. There's been some hard to believe, rough stretch for Kobe. There's been some hard to believe he's still the GM. There's been some bad moves. And by the way, if Mobley isn't there at three, I'd be very happy to try to trade down with OKC at six. I think if you're Cleveland, you love Jalen Green, you might love Jalen Suggs, but because

you already have the Colin Sexton Darius Garland problem there, moving down to six, if you really want to guard there, you can still get like a James Booknight, and there's a heck of a lot of other wings forwards that you can get at that spot, in addition to a bunch of other draft capitals. So if no Mobley for Cleveland, which would be a shame,

because Allen, Mobley, O'Coro, front court would be really fun to watch. I'd love to watch that. It would be a shame if we don't get to see it. But trying to trade down, to me, would be the best for Cleveland there. We'll see what happens, though. We'll see. If I'm Cleveland, the only

guys I care about on this roster are Garland and Okoro. Not Allen? Well, and trying to re-sign Allen. He's restricted, right? I do think they have to be worried somebody's going to come in off the top rope for him. I don't know. if I could end up

with basically Garland, Okoro, and Green, and then I'll figure out the rest. It's like, do I trade Larry Nance? What do I do with Sexton? I'm still dubious that there are these teams trying to pursue Sexton, but we'll see. Anyway, Colby Altman. Wow. Can't believe I still have this job, says Kobe Altman, as me. Go ahead, Kyle. I was just going to say, Green does everything that Sexton does, but he's bigger and more athletic. And he probably has more defensive upside, I would say, too,

depending on how you want to look at it. And I think, yeah, I mean, if you can get him, you get him, I think. And you just deal with the problems that come with that. Charks, make the case for Sexton really fast, just in general. I'm not a big Sexton guy. I mean, he gets buckets. He'll be in the league a long time getting buckets.

Doesn't seem like there's a lot of big Sexton guys out there. It's like when we try to find the Kaminga guys later. It's going to be hard. It's going to be tough to find the high for it. I guess Sexton in New York would be good, right? Because the Knicks have Julius Randle to run point run point sexton could guard point guard just take shots constantly that'd be fine something like that what makes sense for him i like sexton i think he's a pretty good player i mean he averaged 24 points he's improved his efficiency on a higher volume and

each of his three years in the nba improved as a passer i mean, I think maybe he's doing too much for what you want from him, but that's because the Cleveland Cavaliers needed points. If you have him in a situation where you only need 17 points from Sexton, I think he can be a really, really good player for you. A high-end, dynamic guard off the bench, or put him with a bigger guard in the backcourt as a starter. I think Collin Sexton could be a really valuable player in a winning situation. His stock has

dropped too far, it feels like, because he's only 22. He's in a horrible situation, basically, for his entire career. I do think he plays hard. If you're just judging it by, does this guy give a shit? I've never watched a Cavs game and thought that he was either

mailing it in or it seemed like he had an attitude or stuff like that. It seemed like he was really trying on bad rosters. So maybe that is the type of guy you get. It does feel a little Thibodeau Nixie potentially. All right. Number four, I'm Toronto. I could just make it easy and take Jalen Suggs.

I could get ambitious and dangle Siakam around, which I think is what they're doing. I guess my first question is, what is the price for Siakam with Golden State? Because I think that's the top 35 type of guy that they can get for some of their assets. But what is that? Is it Wiggins, seven and 14?

Does Wiseman have to be in the trade? Is it Wiggins seven and 14? Does Wiseman have to be in the trade? Is it just Wiggins and seven? What do you think it is, Kyle? Do we, do we think that Toronto would be interested in Wiseman would be a question? I don't know. That seems like I would be, they did reportedly have interest in Jared Allen. So if they like another rim running big, maybe they need a center. They got nothing long term at the five spot. So it makes sense. Yeah, I was yeah, I was curious about them. Maybe trying to make a run at Mobley because it kind of made sense. I mean,

and one of these other big physical kind of defensive fours kind of makes sense for Toronto to with what they have. I mean, I don't know if I don't know if I would want to are we sure Siakam's a top 35 player? Has that conversation changed any in the past year?

He's probably top 50 now, but I think a year ago you would have put him in there. His contract is awful. He's got he's basically averaging 34 million a year in the next couple of years. So for the Warriors, it's basically they'd be flipping Wiggins for him. But we've seen Siakam expand in like a strong structure, like a strong team, like a team that

has like a good structure in place. Like it feels like maybe if you put him in that environment, he could, he could help them out. I could see that happening for sure. Jackie McMullen was pretty adamant that she thought he was one of the guys who got really affected by the bubble and the pandemic, all that stuff, and that he actually might be a better asset than maybe that was shown last year. I would not trade. If I were the Warriors,

I would do Wiggins in seven. I would not include 14. See, if I'm Toronto, just keep Wiggins. Toronto's like Wiggins isn't a positive asset. I want Wiseman and the two picks. Maybe I'll take Wiggins from you,

but I'm not going to trade for Wiggins. That doesn't make any sense. Are we sure Wiggins isn't a slightly positive on-court asset? You were relentlessly positive. Forget the money for one second because Siakam's making a lot too. You're NBA team. It's important. But Wiggins was a really terrific defensive player

last season for the Warriors. He was terrific. Borderline, second-team all-defense. So, like, factor that in there. He's not a loss-causing that, and he's not a zero by any means. Only two more years on that deal, too. And where's he from?

Canada. That's fun. Come on, Sharks'm you're paying me to take his contract i'm telling that right now like you're giving me assets to get that on my books come on sharks you don't want sexton you don't want uh wiggins what's wrong with you yeah wiggins is 31.5 next year and 33.6 the year after i was was trying to think, is there a way Toronto could get basically seven 14 Wiggins, stay at four,

but then try to, or basically try to figure out how they could end up with Mobley and Suggs. It's like whatever they had to trade, where that's like the last two assets they'd have standing. I don't think it's possible though. I tried.

I've tried to figure it out. The two guys they actually want, it seems like are Jalen Suggs and Scotty Barnes. And there's like some little, you know, Josh Giddy rumblings. I don't think that's real for the four spot, but maybe if they were at seven or 14, we're talking there. But like, how much are we factoring in Kyle Lowry's future with

this decision at number four? How much are we factoring in the very real Ben Simmons interest as well with the decision that's made there? Because if you want Ben Simmons and if you're going for Ben Simmons with young players and future picks or whatever, maybe you're not taking Scottie Barnes and instead you're going with Jalen Suggs. So how much is that a consideration? See, KFC, I think that's really important because I think if you're Toronto,

if you draft Suggs at four, he's going to have positive value in a year because he's going to be a winning player on a playoff team with two-way ability. And you can say, here's your young star for a Ben Simmons. We've developed him. He's doing really well. He's like your SGA that all of a sudden Suggs is. So to me, like you draft Suggs and say, in a year, I can trade Suggs and picks for almost anybody, basically. That's what I'm thinking.

I think that's important because Suggs fits, he plugs and plays with Toronto's roster based on what I've looked at and thought about. I mean, he is going to be ready to play for them next year, in my opinion. Like he's just ready. He's a smart, tough player. And I think he's going to be a two-way player.

And yeah, I agree. I agree with you, Charles. I think he's going to be a good asset in the near future. He's very Raptors-y. My guess is they let Lowry go and they just take Suggs and they just annoyed Suggs as the Lowry successor. I still haven't figured out what Lowry's price range is because people do this thing now where they just assume every team can sign everybody,

no matter what their cap situation, Lakers is that, they're going to get Chris Paul. It's like, how they've no possible way. They're going to get Chris Paul unless they talk somebody into taking Schroeder and, you know,

KCP or, or Kuzma. Like it's just not realistic with, um, with Lowry, you know, the Knicks are the team that have the cap space for him. And I do think that Knicks are going to be heard from the Chris Paul thing.

There's been a lot of rumblings about, are we positive he's going back to Phoenix, stuff like that. Um, so I just feel like Lowry is going to end up in the Knicks is my point, I guess. And they just replace them with Suggs. They're not going anywhere. Anyway, Suggs, VanVleet, they keep Siakam. They try to sign a center. Would they have the cap?

If Lowry left, I think, wouldn't they have the cap space to either try to get Jared Allen or try to trade for Miles Turner? Both of those things are possible, right? I think if Toronto loses a lot of their free agents and open up cap space, they could open up over $20 million I think I think Yeah if Toronto If Toronto loses You know

A lot of their free agents And open up cap space They could open up Like over 20 million In cap So it's Complicated to get to that point But

They could theoretically Create a lot of cap space Yeah next year they have Siakam at 33 They got Van Vliet at 20 Ananobi at 16 So that's almost 70.

Yeah, the way it's looking, I think they would have... I think somebody's going to make a run at Jared Allen. Maybe this is the year we see some restricted free agents actually switch teams. Alright, so we have Suggs going to Toronto. We're going to take another break because this is where the draft gets fun.

Alright, guys. I'm the Orlando GM. What's my name? Who's the Orlando GM right now? I can't remember. Who is the KFC? We got John Hammond as their GM. John Hammond.

And then Jeff Weltman is with the Jurassic Park. You know, I think Jeff Weltman is their president of basketball operations and actually is the guy who runs the team. So if I'm Jon Hammond, I'm taking the three of you out with the rest of my war room on the magic. And I'm just telling stories about what I saw on Giannis for five hours. Like, guys, you know, a lot of people said they didn't see this coming. I'm telling you I did. I knew I would have traded up for him. I knew we didn't need to, I would do the whole thing and just toot my own horn on that.

All right. So everyone has Scotty Barnes going here at five. Nobody seemed to answer the question of this guy might be a zero offensively, other than the fact that he can dribble and people have glossed over it. Cause they're like, Hey, he can defend five positions. He's awesome defender. It's like, didn't we just see this with Ben Simmons where if the guys is zero in the fourth quarter of big games,

that's you're not winning a title. My goal is to win the title as the GM or the Orlando magic sharks. What worries you about Barnes? A lot of, I've been a little surprised, honestly, how much, so like for one,

Scotty Barnes really can't shoot at all. It's not like he has to tweak one or two things. He's pretty much got a broken jump shot. He's going to have to fix it from the ground up. Number two, he's only, I would say, an average athlete. He's not a plus athlete. He's an average athlete who really can't shoot. So to me, I look at him more as a Kyle Anderson type.

I think he's a good player. He's really smart. He's versatile defensively. But then I really worry if I'm Orlando, if I draft Scottie Barnes, then I've got Wendell Carter who can't really shoot, Jonathan Isaac, Markel Ful. No one can shoot on this team. It's the same problem as

last time. To me, drafting guys who can't shoot and aren't plus athletes in the top five is really a concern. Wait a second. Wait a second. You can't argue with the results. Oh, wait. You can. They've been terrible every year for

seven years. Yeah. Maybe stop drafting guys who can't shoot. I think it's a good strategy for my draft this year if I'm running Orlando. That's just my thought, anyways. I'm blown away by the Kyle Anderson comp. I know you're a big fan of Barnes.

I can't even. I'm just a good player. He's not a plus athlete. He's got like a 40-inch vertical. He's got enormous hands, long arms. He can guard all five positions. I'll just respectfully disagree with you there on that one, Chuck. I've seen front spotter get in buckets.

I'll tell you that. Plus athlete. Okay. All right. You're going to get petty with me. All right. No, I just think Barnes is really tough. I think he's similar to Green in that I think he's got a big upside

because he just is consumed with basketball. I've been a big fan of his for a long time. And I think that he does have some skill on the offensive end. Aside from the shooting, he's shown that he can be – he guards the ball. He's very Ben Simmons-y in that way. He'll guard the ball on one end, and on the other end, he's like a smart screener, like elbow creator, and he can pass. I like him.

I'm a big Scotty Barnes fan. The thing with Barnes is you don't need to convince him to do those things like he did for years with Ben Simmons. Barnes is going to come in and right away be like, what do you need me to do on the offensive end of the floor? You want me to run the point? I'll do that. You want me to screen? I'll do that. And yeah, Charks, maybe shooting will take some time.

You're right. That could take some time. But like Kyle said, I love Barnes and his attitude and his approach, and I'd be very happy with him at the fifth pick for the Orlando Magic. You have something in your draft guide, KSC, that sent chills down my spine.

Your shades of Draymond Green. Alright, that's looking good. Pascal Siakam. Alright. Taller and bulkier Michael Carter Williams. I like that. That's pretty good. Taller and bulkier Michael Carter Williams. That's a pretty good nightmare. Tall player, Michael Carter Williams. That's a pretty good player.

I think you need to comment on that. Just explain. Is it a good player? I might have to send you out of the war room for a walk. So is he an elite athlete or does he have an elite body? Well, the taller, bulkier Michael Carter Williams kind of plays into what you were saying, Charks. If he can never shoot, at least you have a guy who can play

great defense, who can pass, who's unselfish. So, I don't know. I mean, I look at it as a compliment, even though MCW of course has had his struggles in the NBA. He's a 5-4 defender, potentially. Another guy can't shoot.

I have some news, guys. I hate to break this to the war room. I just flipped picks with OKC. I'm moving down. I'm not taking Barnes. OKC loves Barnes. They're fired up for him. I flipped pick.

I got one of their 97 first round, unprotected first rounders. Which one did I want? Yeah. Any, any choices? Get one of the, what are they? They have Houston, maybe Clippers 2024.

Something like that. One of those. I got an unprotected pick. I moved down a spot. And OKC is in this spot and they're taking Barnes. And good luck. I'm okay with that trade. That's a cool trade.

Yeah. I like it for them. I like it. I mean, for OKC, I wonder about it because it opens, like, the door to a lot of questions. Just, like, the offensive kind of fluidity of, like, Barnes, Dort, Shea, Poku, insert any big there. What a weird team.

Oh, my God. I don't know. All these dudes. Maybe you just take him and you assume things will – you just kind of go from there. Nothing really set in stone for OKC anyway, so I guess they're, they're, might not even, it's pointless to think about fit when

you're not fitting with something that makes sense to begin with, right? All right, well, the good news is Orlando on the clock now again at six. We're in Kaminga range. Try to talk me out of this. KOC in the draft guide calls him a tantalizing athlete. Tantalizing. Almost like a veal chop

tanalizing nicely cooked talk me out of Kaminga at six because potential upside wise it's about as good as it gets and I'm Orlando I'm going nowhere why wouldn't I throw a dart at the dartboard and hope I hit with a franchise player

you might want a shot creator instead in a James Book night. With Kaminga, you know, everything we just talked about with Barnes, with the concerns about the lack of a shot, you could say with Barnes, it's a little bit, with Kaminga, it's a little bit different. It's the lack of feel for the game at this stage of his career. It's the lack of actual evidence of what the potential is.

I mean, we've seen flashes of it being a shot creator. We've also seen him be a ball stopper and an inefficient outside shooter. We've seen him be a subpar decision maker. So what's the confidence level on him to reach that? What's the confidence level on him to become an aware defender who hustles consistently? Those are big questions there. And so now that we, the magic, have traded down with us, the Thunder, which I'm disappointed about. I was looking forward to your Sam Presti impersonation, Bill. But, you know, maybe James Booknight here.

I know Orlando has a lot of guards on their roster, but I'm struggling to think of somebody else here unless you're wanting to look at a wing. But we still have the eighth pick as Orlando, too. Kyle, what do you think? Well, I just wanted to clear. You said you'd fire us if we tried to argue for Kaminga. So this is a safe place.

I can talk about Kaminga here. I was trying to rope you guys in to make it in the case and then I was going to flip out. But KOC was appropriately scared of Kaminga. Go ahead. You're fired. That's the only reaction is to be appropriately scared. Kaminga, like he's one of the most bizarre,

like it almost, he almost sometimes seems like, what was that movie with Gary Shandling where he's one of the most bizarre like it almost he almost sometimes seems like uh what was that movie with gary shandling where he's pretending to be a human and it's like awkward i forget what it's called the mike nichols movie yeah yeah i mean kaminga is like that sometimes where it's just like he's he's like an alien impersonating a human out there like he'll do things they're like yeah that looks amazing like he and then other times like it's just a feel thing for him like he he'll uh i mean he's an amazing athlete like we talked about like he's huge i mean i've stood near him before he's like just a terrifyingly big person i mean crazy explosive you're starting for it you're kind of betting on your player development i guess is a big thing too like do you think that he is so good that it's worth

us taking him here because of the upside? Because he was like consensus number one in his class, I think. Because he reclassified, didn't he? Yeah, he did. He jumped up a year. So he's only 18. That's the thing, right?

For as bad as he was in the G League last year, he was a year younger. He did take – that should have been his senior year of high school. So looking at an 18-year-old with his kind of physical tools and you're saying, okay, he was bad last year, yes, but that should have been expected

given that his whole life he's been dominating on physical ability. For the first time, that wasn't enough. Maybe he'll adjust as a player now, right? Like it's not unusual for players to get better. Out of the top five at some point, he has the most star a player now, right? Like, it's not unusual for players to get better. Out of the top five at some point, he has the most star potential for sure, right?

Like, if you're talking pure upside at this point, he has the highest upside. That's the one you want to take as the question. Well, the good news is the Magic have had no experience whatsoever with talented raw forward prospects other than the 19 they've taken over the last nine years. Here's why you don't take them here.

Because the Warriors are at seven and they're not taking them. So I know I can get them at eight, which leads me to book that. I think that has to be the pick. And if I can, instead of taking Barnes at five and him being the 10th magic lottery pick who couldn't make an outside shot.

And I have to go through that whole awesome, you know, on paper, he seemed perfect if he can only learn how to shoot. That's been the last 10 years of my life if I'm a Magic fan. And I can trade down, I can get a nice asset and I can just take book night. And my only fear with book night is

for such an awesome score slash year, why didn't he make more threes in college what what happened there should we is the 31.3 percent from three a red flag or as an aberration it was a short season it was weird like what do we make of that koc i mean so he at the nba draft combine and some of the videos we've seen from workouts the shot looks more fluid you know he kind of had a rigid shot at UConn. So clearly he's worked on and he has, you know, pretty good touch.

So I feel good about his shot based off the videos we've seen. We've been tricked before in the past, but I think the free throw percentage is high. The touch around the room is high. You know, I feel good about him

both off the catch now based off the video I've seen and then off the dribble. He's always looked much more comfortable. He was my big out of the top 10 sleeper who now moved into the video I've seen and then off the dribble he's always looked much more comfortable he was my big out of the top 10 sleeper who now moved into the top 10 sometimes that

happens if I was OKC I would love book night and SGA together that to me be a really awesome backcourt yeah if I was OKC I'd be doing is putting those two guys together well so I agree so we think book night goes six either way

I made up the fake trade as OKC and Orlando's GM but if Orlando takes Barnes at 5 I agree with you I think OKC takes Booknight at 6 he's clearly the type of guy who succeeds in the NBA

and could have played in the finals that we just watched if I'm in the top 10 I'm only thinking about am I getting a guy who could play in the finals that we just watched. And if I'm in the top 10, I am only thinking about, am I getting a guy who could play in the finals? I just watched. He clearly could, especially if his threes go up. So are we sure? Are we sure? I just kind of like, go ahead and give us the, we're in the war room. Tell us, make me nervous. I just kind of feel like that we're doing the consensus thing where it's like book nights name has just sort of hovered over us in the air for the whole time. We're like, well, like well he's just the guy to talk about is is james book night like a

like a true creator off of the bounce i mean like he was he scored pretty terribly in spot up creation points per possession he was an average ball handler uh he didn't really blow your hair back in transition either is he better than cam thomas like i just don't know about like the quality of the player in the upside here i don't know about like the quality of the player and the upside here. I don't know about reaching for him here because I'm like, what is he going to be in like five years? Is he going to be like dramatically better than this?

Do I think he's going to develop into a guy who's going to be a high quality passer creator? Is he better than Cam Thomas? That's what I would throw to you guys. And that's why Cam Thomas was number nine on KFC's draft guide. There you go. It's really hard to find these guys. Cam Thomas got the green room invite.

But, you know, I think everybody's looking at basketball the same way we are, where you're just shoehorning these types of players and you watch the finals and it's like, all right, who's actually playing in these finals? What types of players? We had the Mikael Bridges type of player. We had the DeAndre Ayton type of player. Chris Paul's an anomaly. You throw him out. Giannis is an anomaly. You throw him out. But it's either like the Brooke Lopez type of center who can space the floor on one end and protect the bench, the guy that the Suns really needed campaign to be, and he couldn't totally be right. The guy that the Bucks didn't have because Jeff Teague sucked, but that guy who can at very least come off the bench for 10 minutes and make some shots. Everybody wants that. I didn't know that everybody wanted a guy like Cam Johnson two years ago, and we're making fun of that pick, but that's why the kid from Virginia, I think has to come up a

little sooner than maybe everyone expected. Cause we know kid from Virginia, I think has to come up a little sooner than maybe everyone expected. Because we know that guy's going to be able to play in a playoff series. You know, so I'm taking book night here. I don't, it's a couple spots too high, but I'm also getting somebody I really like. So, all right, now I'm running the Warriors.

I'm Bob Myers. First of all, everybody likes me. I'm feeling great. I'm handsome. I have a couple rings. Great out of here. Life's going good. I'm handsome. I have a couple of rings. Great. It's going good. I work for Joe Lacob,

the smartest owner in the NBA. According to Joe. Light years ahead. Miles, light years ahead. He's light years ahead. He didn't make the worst draft mistake in the last 10 years last year.

So it's all good. I don't know that he did. Did he make the mistake or never? You know, I don't know. Was it him? Wait,

you're that down on the Wiseman pick now? After this weird year we just had? Compared to watching Aiton in the playoffs? If you put LaMelo on Golden State, they're rolling right now. They're back in the top of the league. To me, it's like Wiseman doesn't fit their system. It's just really going to hurt them.

LaMelo on Golden State would be really fun. That would have been so fun to watch. I just saw when you mentioned that Charks KOC, I just saw like a gleam and a sad gleam in his eye. Just a split second as he was dreaming of Klay and Curry and LaMelo

all together. I want them to fix the mistake with this pick. So, Verno asked you this on your podcast about everyone has Mitchell just going somewhere in here and I think all of us feel like there's

a chance that he could slip if he doesn't go in this 7 spot or this 8 spot. Who the problem if you're the Warriors who in this draft could you take at 7 especially if Booknight's off the table and Scottie Barnes is off the table

that you just know could play for you next year? Which is why I think they're going to trade this pick. I don't know what they're getting for it, but I just don't feel comfortable with anybody who's left as like, that guy can play 25 minutes in a playoff series. What do you think, KFC? Well, let's say this pick isn't traded and

they have to pick seven and 14. They couldn't make a trade. No trade, no Bealey's not moving, etc. They've got to stay here. The way I approach this is go with upside, someone who could potentially help a little bit now still, upside at seven, and then certainty at 14. So

at seven, Davion Mitchell fits that criteria in terms of guy who can come in right away, play tough defense for you, make some some shots can play with or without the ball next to Steph and Clay it makes sense but the Warriors like I said on the mismatch there's some belief that he could be there at 14 yeah like you know as we're talking about with these upcoming teams there's not a lot of great fits for him or teams that would want a 22 year old six foot point guard so for Golden State you have to think about Jonathan Kaminga because of the upside even if he bombs at least like at the seventh pick you're getting value on a six eight you know big scoring wing i'm into that but the other guy to

think about here is the guy who played in the same league as lamello ball and that's josh giddy think about think about what andre with dala and sean livingston brought in terms of their offense their shot creation ability helping create for steph and clay giddy is one of the best passers in this draft needs to improve as a shooter needs to continue making progress as a defender defending player especially on ball but giddy is a guy at the seventh pick that i'm really really into the idea of for golden six i think he can play a little bit early off your bench, but also maybe grow into a guy that's one of the cornerstones of your franchise down the line. I had him marked down as well.

It seems like there's some giddy momentum just in general in this draft. One thing I like, look, the Australian stats, who the fuck knows. But I did like that he he gets rebounds assists he does kind of he kind of checked the box score i like guys like that kyle are you pro or anti uh giddy as a top 10 guy oh it's it's not yeah it's not like a thumbs up thumbs down thing like totally for me like not like uh yeah not black and white i i like him just not here like i just think in terms of like the warriors if you need somebody that's ready to play now like if this guy he's going to be adjusting to

the nba i don't even know if the is the nbl line the same as the nbas is it 22-9 or 23-9 whichever i don't he's going to be adjusting to a new line with a shot that needs to come a long way what the warriors need is like spacing if teams can is he going to be able to play with their stars that teams are going to be playing into the gaps and helping? I don't know about that. For me, I just... Not at that spot. Not for them.

Even though I do think that Josh Giddey's fun. I mean, he's a really good spot at pass. He's big. When he gets into the teeth of the defense, he can hit the corners and things like that. But I just don't think that it's a good fit for me. Let me plug a guy. So my guy right here would be Franz Wagner. I think he's the

underplayed value in the back of the top 10. Franz Wagner, so that's Mo's younger brother, but a much much better athlete. He's a legit 6'9". He can guard three positions, protect the rim, switch screens. He's a really smart player. I think he averaged like three assists on one turnover.

He thinks the game at a high level. He's a decent shooter. He's the only guy in this draft who can guard big wings and spread the floor. He's a good athlete, smart player. He can play right away. And that's the most valuable kind of player now, really, for a role player. If you're six foot nine, you can guard three positions. You can move the ball.

You can spread the floor. That's the kind of guy Golden State needs. He gives you 25 minutes a night right away. To me, Wagner is the guy that's at seven, eight, or nine. I think he's the guy that can really impact the team next season. So they have two ways they could go, right? A guy who can help us next year or best asset available for a trade the problem is as soon as they take somebody like cominga he's in every trade rumor

from that moment on i don't know if that really helps cominga or helps them i'm with sharks i i think it's got to be wagner here because i think i can possibly get Mitchell later. And if I can't get Mitchell, I know I can get Duarte who I think could definitely a hundred percent play next year. I can get somebody who can play next year at 14. And then Wagner, they just don't have a guy like this, you know? And I kept trying to think like, I love Mitchell. I think Mitchell is going to be really good. And I think I actually didn't mind that he was six feet tall. Cause to me, it's like that just to, he can stop the dames,

all those types of guys. There's so few guys out there who can stay in front of the small, fast guys, the three point shooting. The fact that he had the aberration year last year is my, my biggest fear with him. A couple of people have brought that up. Like,

did he just, it was a weird season. Did he just get hot or was that the start of something real? And the fact that he's older, that's not great either. Wagner's only 19. Just feels like the kind of guy I could see playing with

Curry and Thompson in a way like if they had had taken Wagner and Lomelo back to back, they just would have had this really fun, flexible, weird team. I love the Vodka. It's like Vodka is

not falling out of the top nine right like he will go one of the next three picks. So why wouldn't he just go here. I think 12 would be

his floor San Antonio probably. If the Kings passed him up though. Yeah. I would think they would take the stats guy at Wagner

and the Kings. Yeah. And the thing about those were the Warriors fluidity of their offense a few years ago, that people underrate, is how much that Livingston and Iguodala made a big difference for them. Like in the playmaking that they just injected,

it's different spots within their offense. And like Sharks was saying, I think his upside on that front is good. He's high-motored. I mean, he's mean as shit on defense. If you watch him, he's a lot like Mo. He's got a little bit of that wiliness in him. I just think he's he's and he's going to be ready to play. Yeah, he's

20 years old. So he's deceptively athletic for sure. I didn't say it. I didn't say it. You could use him at the elbow like the, you know, the West Lee style playmaking. You can use him as a screener and a dream on roll spot up. Wagner could play anywhere from that Golden State system.

All right, we're taking a break, then we're tackling the second Magic pick. All right, I'm back to being the Orlando Magic GM. I have the eighth pick. Kaminga is on the board. It's so enticing. The upside. Can't believe he fell this far. Can you guys talk me out of this again?

Who am I taking if it's not Kaminga? There's a lot of rumblings and reality that this could be Moses Moody out of Arkansas. Oh. Potential long wing defender, 6'5", long wingspan, can shoot threes, do a little bit off the dribble for you. Kyle or Charks, are you guys big fans of Moody?

I think he's a safe pick. Moody's one of the safest picks in the draft because he can shoot. He's got good size. He's just not very fast. You watch him sometimes. He's just moving in slow motion. He's just not a very athletic guy. I think he's a very safe player. There are guys I'd probably

take over in terms of upside, but if you want a safe pick, that's the safe pick. He'll be a good player in the NBAba for a long time what do you think kyle yeah i think he's going to be an efficient catch and shoot i like there are some fits i like for moody better but i think that for what they need here um i think it would be a good pick for them i mean well what do you think about like like dissonance between like cole anthony and davion mitchell do you think that they could play together can you play those two guys side by side? How does that work?

I was just, if we're contemplating Davion Mitchell. Do you contemplate that at all? Yeah, I just, I'm not caring about Cole Anthony's feelings with my pick. Like, he's, I just want to get, I have to get two good players above the magic, right? So it's like, and if he can't totally play with Cole Anthony, it'll be fine.

I guess like they, it's one of those things where you have a bunch of guys with potential in every position but no keepers. Do we think the Magic

have a single keeper right now? Isaac and Bamba? Isaac. Bamba, stop it, KOC. I'm gonna kick you out of the war room. Jesus. Even Carter Jr.?

Are we including him in that? I think Isaac's the keeper. I still like Carter Jr. Kyle and I still like Carter Jr. Can we just talk about Garuba here for one second? I love Garuba. Garuba, interesting. Jamaica.

You have him 12th on this. He's going to be wherever he goes, people are going to be like, I like him 12th on this. He's going to be wherever he goes. People are going to be like, Ooh, I like that pick. Like, why can't he just go in the top eight? I don't understand. Like, I know that guy's going to be a good NBA player. We've already kind of see it with that Spain USA game. I was like, all right, this guy belongs in this game. And for the stuff that he does, six, eight to 29, 19 years old. Um, he's just a guy that we know who he is. 6'8", 229, 19 years old. He's just a guy that we know

who he is. It's like, who's the dude, the USC dude that Atlanta took who just hurt his shoulder? Like, same thing. Okongwa.

Okongwa. He's like, oh, I know what that is. And with Garuba, it's like, I know what that is. I can see him in these playoff games.

So why wouldn't I just take a mate? Well, because you have Bo Bamba and Wendell Carterendell how many centers you want to have on this team i mean that's a tough thing for orlando though isn't it like there's so many guards there's so many bigs like i i'm at a point with the magic it's like forget about what you have and just take the player that you feel is the best and you know it works itself out over the course of time I think it's a little bit different than like Cleveland with Cleveland you want Mobley both for

talent and fit reasons with Orlando at five and eight or six and eight with our mock here it's like I don't care about what I have already it's just about getting the best guys okay so it's either the best guy right now is Mitchell the upside guys Kaminga so what are we doing

Kyle you get first vote The best guy right now is Mitchell. The upside guy is Kaminga. So what are we doing? Kyle, you get first vote. Those are your two choices. I'm not taking Moses Moody. It's too high for him. I'm sorry. That's true. I agree with you.

I mean, we got to go Kaminga for the upside. I don't think that that's a gamble that's going to... It's worth it. It's a worthy gamble, I think, regardless of what we have. We'll figure it out later. Let's take... Sharks? Yeah, I mean, if you're at eight... Like, Kaminga's the same size as Garuga, but he's a wig.

Like, at some point, you got to take the talent. I mean, you already had one safe lottery pick. I say go with Kaminga. KOC? Let's go with Kaminga right now. I think it's the right pick. Because you think, like like a year ago, there was no scenario where he

wasn't one of the top five picks unless he got hurt. So now it's like, do you overreact from some admitted red flags and some other stuff? But it just seems like destiny to have him on the magic. Come aboard, Kamingo. You can join us with all of our other disappointing lottery

forwards. All right, The Kings are nine. Mitchell, I think, is a cross off for them just with the type of team they have. And this is a weird part of the draft. There's some some Jaskity potential here because if you have him and Halliburton, I just would want to be on that team. I think those would be two really fun guys to play with. Who would be your choice here, KFC? So you're Monte McNair here. You love numbers,

analytics. I'm Monte McNair. I can't believe I gave up Bogdanovich for nothing. I just don't want you to bring it up in the war room right now. Go ahead. So you like numbers? Well, how about Alperen Schengen? Turkish big man man 18 years old average 19 points per game vintage low post style score except he also flashes some pretty wild ability from the perimeter he has some step back threes some wild jumpers off the dribble

has great touch from the line from near the rim i think it's pretty easy to project him as becoming a guy who can be really effective on the post, really effective as a passer from all over the floor and a good three-point shooter for you. So I love the offensive potential of Shang-Goon. And if he can figure out and become a good positional defender, I mean, sign me up on Shang-Goon. I think he could be a major steal in this draft, especially for the Kings at number nine. So you have an 18 in the draft guide. Is that just because that's your sense of where the...

Yeah, that's the mock. Yeah, I have him 10 on my personal board. Yes. Yeah. I like that pick too. Listen, I only saw this on YouTube, but he's just... It's really impressive.

And especially at this point of the draft, it's like, this is the kind of guy who four to eight years from now will destroy team USA and some international basketball. You're like, Oh my God, we can't stop this guy. Kyle,

are you on board with this? Cause I actually liked that. I liked this spot for him. Yeah. There's enough there to be enticed. I mean, I know people have kind of compared, I went back specifically and was watching,

I mean, people have used like Yoke, which is like kind of what he showed at the same age as like a comparable thing for like growth plate for Shingun. I don't know that the tools were like more apparent earlier with Jokic from what I was seeing, just going back and seeing it. But I mean, one thing,

I won't surprise you at all, KOC, with this. I mean, he just has like tractor beam hands. He catches everything. So like you imagine him playing like dump off passes to him he he finishes things you wouldn't expect him to because he's not quite as big i mean i think he's more in the nerd role like i don't i don't know that i totally trust the shooting but he does shoot with touch you know if they get him in there i think there is potential there uh just a really clever player i think he's going to get picked on defensively that's not good for the kings's going to get picked on defensively.

That's not good for the Kings because they've been really bad defensively for, I don't know, Czech's watch forever. So there are those questions. But like a year from now, if he came back,

he might be, you know, a higher pick in the future because he would show more. So take him now. That's a player you might not have the chance to get in the future. I understand that pick.

I'm good with it. 18 years old. What do you think, Charks? That is the question, right? It's like, if you're the Kings, do you want to build an up-tempo team around Fox and Halliburton? Shingun, he needs to be... I mean, he's a half-court player. He needs to get the ball in the post,

do his thing. I get the idea of going for a star here, though, if you're Sacramento at nine. I get it. It's a big star here, though, if you're Sacramento at nine. I get it. It's a big risk, but I can... KFC made a good argument. I'm not against it, I guess. It's a risk, though, for sure.

Like Kyle said, you're already an awful defensive team, and you're getting probably the slowest big man in the draft on top of being... So now you have guys getting penetration, plus a guy who can't move his feet. You're going to be with the worst defense team in the league probably next season again. Well, you think they're probably going to be

one of the three worst teams in the West again, unless they trade this pick and try to go for it. But at the spot we're in the draft, I'm not positive how much value it has. Could there be a Fox at number nine for Ben Simmons type of thing? Who knows? But this seems like the right pick for upside.

If I'm the Kings, it's not like I'd really like my identity that much anyway. Like the only guy I really know is going to be on the team three years from now is probably Hal Burton. Who knows? Really? You think Fox is going to be moved? You think that's going to happen? Is Fox an all NBA guy?

Is he ever going to be an all NBA player or is he that level below? Is he that Mike Conley's owner? Is it even fair to compare to Mike Conley? Because Mike Conley at least was in playoff games you know I don't know I just think there's a lot of good point guards. He needs to get way more efficient in the half court like it

just has to happen. He's been so inconsistent as a three point shooter so inconsistent as a shooter inside the arc like like you said sharks they're an up-tempo team they want to play fast but even if you want to play fast like 80 of your possessions are still half-core possessions and like fox needs to get better there and i think that's where like someone like shangun could help in terms of facilitating and creating shots for those other guys like i would love the chemistry between halliburton and Shen Goon with those guys playing off of each other.

I think it could be really, really exciting to watch for Sacramento. And then you figure it out with Fox. Some wide-scale basketball right there. Halliburton and Shen Goon.

High IQ. Yeah. How about this? What if the Knicks call and say, we'll give you quickly 17 and 21 for Fox? Hang it up.

Let's call it in the league. Hang it up. Hang it up. Yeah. If I was the Knicks, I'd do that in a second. I'd drive Fox to New York myself. That's a great trade for New York.

Oh, my God. Definitely for Knicks. Yeah. What else would the Knicks have to throw in to get the Kings' attention? RJ? So, RJ has to be in that trade.

I think you're right, Charks. That'd be interesting. Next pick is the 10th oh i get to be david griffin so guys um before we start the war room here in the pelicans thing i just want i'm david griffin i'm the gm i've been here the last couple years can you please not mention that we have to dump two salaries that uh i willingly acquired less than a year ago and then extended one of them. Can just nobody bring that up. I get it. But so in Adams, it's $45 million of just a complete disaster.

We're probably going to lose Lonzo for nothing, which is going to be a problem because he's probably going to be really good on his next team. And I think I'm probably going to have a ringer podcast that we're podcasting about a year. Anyway, who do you guys like at 10? What do you have, Kyle? I was going to say, you sound like the concert promoter from Woodstock 99. Just aggressively going at it. Oh, God.

Look, I know it's bad. I really like David Griffin. I think he's a nice guy. I just think he's done a really bad job as the Pelicans guy. Just indisputably not a great job. Kyle, who do you like at number 10? Well, it's the thing that everybody wants. I think it's shooting, playmaking,

shooting, shooting, shooting, playmaking. That's what you got to try to get here. I mean, like, do you want, I guess it's a question of, do you want somebody that can play sooner than later? I mean, the best shooters that are still available on the board, I think that you could start thinking about guys like Trey Murphy here you could start thinking about guys like Kispert guys that have

like movement shooting upside um Chris Duarte I think you could reasonably start talking about him there um I'm not as high on Murphy as other people um I would start thinking about like I would think about Moody here that's who i picked in our mock draft i'm also a big zaire williams guy i know not everybody else is kyle give him the zire williams push he's great i mean i basically should be his agent at this point like he's huge he's basically cam reddish and i he's like he's really just aggressive on defense he cares about defense uh yeah he's like 6'10". He's got like a 7-foot wingspan.

I think he's going to be a defensive monster, and I think he's going to shoot well off the catch. I think he's the type of player that would do really well for them, but they might be able to get him later, potentially, if they move around some. It'd either be him or Moody for me, honestly. That's kind of where I am on that. But I think that Zaire's upside is higher much much higher than how about

Davion Mitchell here but you have Kyra Lewis right you do is it a bad thing to have another playmaking guard in the backcourt I'm just throwing the name out there not arguing for him but I'm just curious I like Kyra I give him a chance to play it just feels like

they're Kispert waiting to happen I think Kispert waiting to happen. I think Kispert would be a fair pick here. Him or Giddy. I mean, with Kispert like different types of player. Kispert, he's more than a shooter. Like everybody says he's a, you know, just a shooting specialist. He does more off the dribble for you in terms of attacking closeouts,

making the right pass within the flow of the offense. Like he's a really smart player and a really rock solid defender. So I would love Kispert at number 10 if pelicans keep the pick um but i think giddy also like similar like in terms of providing that upside if you do lose lonzo ball if you do lose him for nothing with giddy you get another playmaker with size into your lineup and you bring him in with fred vincent one of the best shooting coaches in all of basketball who's already helped out brandon ingram who's already helped out lonzo Ball and Zion for that matter,

get him connected with Giddy, I would be very, very interested to see what the results are in three, four years. I like the thought of Mitchell here just because of the defense and the three-point shooting. And I don't care if I already have Kyra Lewis. Now I have both of them. If I'm losing Lonzo, why wouldn't I take Mitchell here?

He's the kind of guy I feel like if I'm trying to keep Zion from being the first guy ever to leave his rookie contract and go sign as a free agent somewhere else. I just want guys who are ready, who he's going to respect as like dogs in the fight with him basically.

And I don't know why Mitchell's not mentioned here. Moody was the other guy I was looking at, and Kispert. What do you have, Charks? I was going to say it's funny because my comp for Mitchell is Eric Bledsoe. I think that's a pretty fair comp for him. Talking about a 6'1 plus athlete, elite defender, streaky shooter,

very ball-dominant, needs the ball, goes to the rim player. I like Mitchell a lot in some situations, but in New Orleans, they need spot-up shooting, right? If you want to make Zion happy, spread the floor for him. He hasn't had that at all in his first couple of years there. All right. So Kispert's our best spot-up shooter that's left? I think he's the most efficient volume. You could run him off screens all day long, just run him. More diversions to pull gravity away from zion is there you know i think we have hesitation to take kispert here

just because it seems too high but isn't this sort of an echo of what went on a few years ago with uh with cam johnson we were just like oh way too high but it was just like okay but cam can guard though like that's be like cam is a much better defensive prospect than Kispert, like, significantly. To be fair. Yeah, that's a good point. And a way better athlete. Are we sure? Cam Johnson was coming off, like, major hip surgery.

Kispert, you know, he plays hard. He was 6'9", though, and he can move. Like, Kispert's 6'6", 6'7", doesn't have the same quickness. Almost sort of like a different class of wing, you know, just like a bigger wing versus a smaller wing, yeah. You know what's interesting with Kispert, the worst thing that happened to him was he

sucked in the title game. Right. And athletically, he seemed a little overwhelmed. But what if he just had a bad game? Like he was good all year. That team was undefeated. He was one of the most important pieces of it. He kind of looks like Kyle Brand of the ringer a little bit.

He looks a little Kyle Brand. He does look like Kyle Brand. Even in the draft card photo. I need to be good next year with Zion. And I'm not positive they're keeping this pick, but at least I know this guy will be able to make threes from different parts of the floor with Zion on the court. And I think I want to take him.

I would say Moody gives you that plus more long-term defensive potential. It's like Moody's going to give you that. Moody's a really good shooter. Like you draft Moody here. Okay. We got the spot up shooter. Plus he can defend two positions. Kispert probably is never going to defend.

All right. So you're voting for Moody. What do you have, Kyle? Moody or Kispert? I've narrowed it down to those two. Man, I'm feeling a little crazy right now. I might've talked myself into Kispert. He can get white hot.

I mean, do you want to weigh the plus-plus upside of his shooting? I mean, we saw if you have the right type of team, you can hide a shooter like that. We saw that with Duncan Robinson, similar size, similar defensive challenges. The plus-plus shooting is so valuable. I think it could help me next year. I don't know.

I'll say I kind of like the Kispert there. I like it better than I like Moody. Actually, I've talked myself out of it, honestly. I'm with Kyle there. I think Kispert gives you more certainty the next couple of years because making Zion happy, entering his free agency, is incredibly important for the Pelicans here. And with Kispert, I'd love to

fit there. I'd be excited to see what he could do. Great. Charks, you have to bounce, right? This is my cue, yeah. Charks, it was awesome having you in the War Room. We really appreciated it. Alright, guys. We can read and listen to Charks this week. Thanks, Charks. We're going to take one more break and then we'll finish

11 through 15. Alright, we're coming back. Charks is gone but we are going to do, we'll do five more picks because these five are really fun. So we have Charlotte. Everybody's like Charlotte needs a big guy. Kai Jones is not my cup of tea. Just so you guys know.

Not perennially the type of guy I like. If they're taking a big guy here, why wouldn't they just take Garuba? I wish we had Charks to argue on behalf of Kai Jones here. He wrote a great article about him on TheRinger.com, which people can check out if they want to. But with Garuba, you are getting more certainty with what he can bring on the defensive end of the floor.

Like you said in that Spain-USA game, Bill, he can bring it the defensive end of the floor. You know, like you said in that Spain USA game bill, like he can bring it, he can get stops across multiple positions with Kai Jones. I mean, if you're Charlotte here, you have a young potential blossoming star and Lamella ball. I'm really into the idea of Kai Jones here just because of like, he's so raw and you don't know what he's going to become necessarily,

but I can at least foresee him becoming a, a rim running big who can get up and down the floor for you, block some shots inside. He can switch screens potentially like, like he, he, what he struggles at doesn't matter quite as much for Charlotte because Lamella is going to be handling the ball so much. Like you don't have to worry about him quite as much as being a decision maker at the top of the key because of the way you run your offense. So I think Kai Jones here with the balance of role-playing potential in three years in addition to really high long-term upside with as raw as he is. I'd take a swing for the fences here.

I like the point Sharks made in that piece about how Texas has weirdly done a good job at pumping out big guys that at least seem competent in NBA games. Who do you like here, Kyle? It's a good point that you're making about Lomelo. I mean, Lomelo is the

type of playmaker, like talent-wise, that if you are a big guy and you can run and jump and chew gum he's gonna just feed you over and over again it's this Dwight Powell thing like you know the way Luka just makes Dwight Powell look great it's a uh no offense to Dwight Powell but yeah Kai makes sense there I do like Garuba like positionally I think you kind of come into a situation where I mean you have PJ you have Miles you have Garuba like those those four guys

together I think that Kai makes sense as like a as a vertical spacer who's their other like I mean, you have PJ, you have Miles, you have Garuba. Like, those four guys together, I think that Kai makes sense as a vertical spacer. Who's their other, like, legit pick-and-roll vertical spacer on that roster? KLC, off the top of your head, do you remember? Cody Zeller, who's a Fragit. Yeah, who's a Fragit. So, not very vertical.

Right. I mean, it does make sense on that level. I'll throw one to you here. I mean, like, does... And I've actually heard some rumblings. I don't think that they'll do it here, but what do you think about Isaiah Jackson here? I know you're going to make fun of me,

KLC. Like that's a vertical spacer. Yeah. He's a, he's a vertical spacer. I'm not the biggest too early for him. Yeah. It's too early.

I mean, I get the idea of it. And I think it's also worth mentioning here. Charlotte's been connected to miles Turner and trade talks. Unclear if that involves the number 11 pick. But if you are going for a big in a trade, does that change the equation with what you're targeting here in the draft? Would you maybe go for a wing instead? You know, like we've mentioned Giddy a bunch of times here, still on the board.

I maybe for San Antonio, he's the perfect fit there with this next pick. But is there any logic to doing it? We've seen LaMelo share the ball with Terry Rozier. He shared the ball with Devontae Graham. Having another wing who can handle for you, I'm intrigued. But the idea of Giddey, even though I lean towards a big at this spot. I like the Giddey lane for this reason. I think it's really easy to find big guys who can run and jump now in free

agency and all over the place. Cause really teams can only play one. There's only one guy per roster at this point. You know, some, some teams might have to, but really it's one per roster. It always seems like you can trade for them. And the fact that Atlanta got Capella for what they got two years ago, who's like the finished best possible version of Kai Jones. I don't like the idea of taking big guys this high when it's such a perimeter league now. You know, when I just feel like I can get guys later, I can get Nick Claxton with the 32nd pick or whatever, you know?

That was a travesty, yeah. I think I really like the thought of Giddy here, even though it doesn't fit the big guy thing. I like getting LaMelo high IQ, malleable, fun to play with guys like more of those types that he can toys for him because he's the guy I'm building around. Right. I can go get runner jumper guys. They're available. I can get them every year. There's five I can go get. But to find other malleable, high IQ passer guys, I don't know. I think this is the right spot for Giddy. Spurs are disappointed right now then. Yeah, great. That's another reason to take them. All right, we're taking Giddy. So the Spurs, this would be their backup. So I would assume they're Garuba waiting to happen,

but let me just make the case really quick for, is it Mitchell? Like a very Spursy kind of guy. I know they're, they have a, you know, Dejounte Murray, they got Derek white,

but it's not like, I don't know. It's not like they've won a few titles with those guys. Like, and they feel pretty tradable to either of those two so i just say like mitchell just seems spurs at him i don't think they'll take him here but i just want to bring it up low salary there for san antonio you mentioned if you want to flip murray or white they're both making around 15 million dollars the next three years for murray in the next four years for white so like that option could be there quite easily

if mitchell were the pick here i mean, for San Antonio, I'd be crushed. No Giddy, no Shen Goon, no Wagner. I'd be very disappointed with just the style there. I think Garuba makes a lot of sense for this roster. I don't love the frontcourt next to Purtle. Neither of those guys can shoot, which is why I like Shen Goon more because I see shooting potential with him. But, you know, Garuba could be the best pick available here.

So I'd be happy with Garuba instead of Davion Mitchell. Kyle, what do you have? An underrated thing I was going to tack on about Garuba is he might be the best interior passer in the draft. Like, he is a very, very clever passer around the basket. I don't think he gets enough credit for that. He's very Okongwu-esque, honestly, in terms of like size and measurements. His hands are amazing.

He's got super long arms, smart defender. I like defensively. He is a playoff level defender, I think, in the next few years, honestly. And he is Spurs-y. They like guys like that. And I don't know what his shooting upside is. I mean, that would take it to a whole nother level because the passing and the IQ is there. If he does become a better shooter, we know they have a history of that.

It's a game changer for them. Should we be thinking about a wing here, though, for them? I mean, like a Moses Moody. I mean, they might lose to Rosen for nothing. Rudy Gay is a free agent as well. Patty Mills is a free agent. They could be losing a lot of guys that play wing or shot creators for you. Is there Moody or Murphy?

I can sign those guys, though. I have cap space. And I got Kelton Johnson. A lot more run for him next year, right? Coming off a bronze, maybe? Yeah, coming off a bronze or seventh place finish for Team USA. I like Garuba, and I'm calling it in.

I'm going to tell Pop once he finishes losing another game, we have Garuba coming. All right, Pacers at 13. Really fun team for the draft and for these next two weeks just because it seems like everyone on the team is probably available except Sabonis. I don't see Carlisle's got to be in heaven with Sabonis. That's like his type of guy.

Other than that, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone was available. Are we sure Mitchell isn't like the most Pacers-y type of guy that they've taken in years past? Like ready to go, tough. We've seen guys like him succeed there. They're pretty deep at guard, I guess would be the one thing, but if they're going to make trades, maybe you take Mitchell and, and kind of figured out Duarte, obviously, if they think

they're going to be good next year, um, Cam Thomas, who hasn't gone yet. And I think we all think this is right around the range for him. And then let's have the Zaire conversation right now. Zaire Williams, who, um, look, we've seen this happen every year. There's a guy who is like a top five guy, top seven guy, whatever they go to college. They have kind of a fucked up one year freshman season. People fall way off them overreact to the season. I don't know, man. I did some research on this cause he was such a big guy at Sierra Canyon. And I remember watching him in high school and it was like, he was hurt at the start of the Stanford thing. The Stanford thing just seems like it went badly, but the whole season was weird. And now this guy who's 6'8", who really has the type

of athlete that you're looking for at that position, but he sucked last year in college. How much do we overreact to that, KFC? I don't know if we're overreacting necessarily. He still could go mid-first round, maybe late lottery even, which is why we're talking about him here. So I think the concerns with him, the fact is that he's a fluid,

silky smooth ball handler. He looks great with the ball in his hands and with his size. But the shooting ability, very raw. his size but the shooting ability very raw you know in terms of the defensive ability you can feel good about that but he's still skinny very very skinny 190 pounds how what position does he defend exactly is he quick enough to defend quicker guards is he strong enough to defend bigger forwards there's question there the finishing at the rim is concerning so he's a project for indiana i'd

rather go with somebody that i feel like you mentioned mitchell could come in right away and play i think cameron thomas he would be in consideration here he just worked out with indiana last week cameron thomas could be a nice balance in that backcourt next to brogdon or caris lavert i'd really like the thomas pick or pick or the Mitchell pick here more so than Williams. But I'm curious, Kyle, because you're the one who loves Zaire Williams. Let me think of yet another way to defend him. No, I was going to say like a year ago, a similar guy that had a similar trajectory that you were describing, Bill, was Jade McDaniels. And he had a really weird year. And another thing with Zaire is he had kind of a nagging

knee injury. And I'm pretty sure there were COVID protocol issues with him. Yeah. The big thing for me is I think the strength is a lot like Jalen Green. The strength, once it comes into the factor, he is a reddish-ish type player. He'll get stronger. I think that it's going to come around. He is a legit 6'9", 6'10".

I like him there. I could see why, uh, I could, I could see the skepticism. Um, I wouldn't mind taking him there at all because I'm so high on him. So I, I would stick with that. So one thing I forgot, TJ McConnell's a free agent, probably not coming back. I'm guessing. I really like Aaron holiday as like a third guard. I've always wanted to see him just get more of a chance, but, um, you can make a case that they could take Mitchell here. Brogdon, who knows if he's on the team six months from now, Mitch could come right in, give you some defense, all that other stuff.

So for me, it's like, I like Mitchell. We haven't had Moody go anywhere yet, right? We have not. And then the other one is Cam. So, I don't know. You guys tell me. Can I ask a question? Yeah. In five years, who's better? Jaden Springer or Davion Mitchell?

Do we have a lot of exposure to Jaden Springer here? I think he could be the best on ball defender in the draft like i really do think that's possible you think do you think jayden springer is being underrated because of the shot creation concerns that some people have yeah but what was yeah that sounded smart alex i didn't mean it that way yes but like a few years ago i mean the davion mitchell had the same kind of questions i'm just saying we got to kind of take a look at where we are in their development.

I'm a big Springer believer. I wouldn't mind going Springer here, too. I mean, I hate that Davion keeps sliding and falling, but I just kind of look at the age. I look at the height. I look at the upside. I like him, but I have some other guys here. Especially Indiana, where are you going? If you can get a guy here that could be a major player for you

in the future for a good deal, it's worth considering, I think. I'm zagging. I think Indiana underachieved last year because they had a terrible coach. The team revolted on them halfway through the year. I think they did have talent.

And I think if you add Mitchell in the East, there's not even eight good East teams. And Mitchell, I think, could play right away. I think he could be a really good defender for them, worst-case scenario, and hit some threes, and I think he fell too far. So I think I'm taking Mitchell here for the Pacers. I'm into it. I'm into it.

Kevin Pritchard, I think he's Carlisle's kind of guy. If our friend Haralabob is helping Carlisle, I have no idea if that's happening or not, but Mitchell's in the Haralabob vortex, so we'll see I have no idea if that's happening or not, but Mitchell's in the Haralabob vortex. So we'll see. All right. So that brings us to the Warriors. So the Warriors,

everybody seems to feel like at 14, they're just going to take a guy who's ready to go. Right. Duarte. Chris Duarte has just been linked here. 24 years old is the only red flag which is a massive red flag the list of 22 and over guys

and the kind of careers they have it is a little spotty similar to Cam Johnson there well are we sure Zaire Williams we talked about would the Warriors want an upside guy are we sure this isn't the upside guy for them

to take Zaire Williams at 14 and to just kind of put him in Draymond Wiggins school? You don't like that idea? I don't like it. I mean, we just took Franz Wagner with their first pick at number seven here. I mean, like let's see,

you want somebody who can play. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I want somebody who can inject some more scoring into this team. I know you have Stephen Curry. I know you have Clay Thompson. I know that like,

but you need other guys who can create from the perimeter. I just wanted to talk it out. Cam Thomas, to me, I think he can come in right away and provide that spark off the bench for you. He can provide the spark. I think he's a better passer than he needed to be at LSU. They needed points from him.

He averaged 23 points per game, 1.4 assists. He was not a playmakerSU. They needed points from him. He averaged 23 points per game, 1.4 assists. He was not a playmaker there. But plugging him into this Golden State offense where they moved the ball around, I would love to see what he can do because I think, you know, despite the low passing numbers, he's a smart player. You can see it in the way he cuts to the rim and the way he moves off ball. So I'd love to see the experiment adding Cameron Thomas into this warrior system and add that spark off the bench.

And he could grow into somebody that starts for you sometime down the line, four or five, six years from now when Steph is getting old. One of the things you have in your draft guide for pluses for Cam Johnson is skilled off-ball cutter who can relocate or come off screens from all angles and drain shots thanks to pristine footwork. That sounds a little Warriors-y. That's you for them. I like this pick more. I really think

I think Duarte is going to be good next year. Like, I really think he's going to come in and just be a good player where we'll be like, wow, that guy's good. To his age,

he is what he is. And he was kicking the ass of all these young dudes. I think if you're the Warriors, you still have to get like a little bit of upside with these picks because at some point your core is getting a little older and you want those guys to move in. I think Cam Thomas is the best pick here. What do you think, Kyle? I think players like Cam Thomas have existed within, if we're just imagining the Warriors offense as a template, you talked about the cutting,

like that, it always helps for them to have just like this hurricane of offense of like confident offense. And then we've had it like in the lesser degree of like Nick young, but we've also had like Leandro Barbosa comes in and you pulling, you have these, cause there are always these simultaneous things going on with the Warriors. There's the off ball offense.

And then there's just some other kind of action. And you have to, you have to watch on with the Warriors. There's the off-ball offense, and then there's just some other kind of action. And you have to watch one or the other. And if Cam Johnson's the guy that can kind of microwave, get hot, yeah, like Barbosa, we saw in later years. They're kind of built for guys like that. Their infrastructure, guys like that have trapped.

I'm with you. Super confident. I think that's the right pick. As much as fun as it would be to see Duarte on that team next year. And Duarte is my kind of guy. He's a big shot, does the whirl around, fist pump, double clutch. He's one of those guys. I love those guys. He's just a really fierce competitor.

And I'd like to see him in a playoff series. Seems like the kind of guy who's going to end up on a Chris Vernon team. He's a Chris Vernon type of guy. The Wizards are at 15. Guys who don't suck, right? Yeah. Wizards at 15. Guys who don't suck, right? Yeah. Wizards at 15. Who the hell knows?

Who's going to be on the Wizards in two, three weeks? I think this is where the draft gets, kind of goes off the rails. So maybe we stop here. I think if you're the Knicks, you're hoping for Duarte at 19, I'm guessing. Because that's actually, if he gets by the Warriors, it's going Wizards.

I guess the Wizards could take him too. Thunder. Grizzlies. That's such a Grizzlies team pick. OKC not taking him. And then the Knicks at 19. So he'll go somewhere in there. It'd be interesting if he falls all the way to 20 to the Hawks.

Because he's playing for the Hawks. That's happening. We didn't have Trey Murphy going anywhere. This is right around the range for him, too. And that was one for the Wiz. I thought Trey Murphy would be, this is the right spot for him. Yeah, Trey Murphy, Moses Moody. Duarte, too, could make sense if they were to keep Bradley Beal.

Because of his readiness. You've got to try to win now, but I'd lean towards Murphy or moody for the Wizards, even if you are keeping Bradley Beal and Russell Westbrook. All right, before we go, because the draft's Thursday, your big sleeper, Kyle man

is. Oh man, you said it already. Oh, is I here or no? Well, is i here or no well is i here yeah he doesn't count as a sleeper because he was so high pedigree who was the guy you mentioned who was in like the 28 range you mentioned him like a half hour ago oh um jayden springer jayden springer he's in there too um i know you teased me i think bJ. Boston could end up being a good player. I like Jeremiah Robinson Earl. That's another guy that I think the Warriors should try to go get him.

That's my opinion. He can hit threes. He's a big, smart player. There's a lot of guys like that that I think are going to be ready to go. Matthew Hurd is another guy that I think is interesting. Have you guys seen him a lot? Bill, have you seen Matthew Hurd? He's got a Larry Bird two-motion jump shot.

I think you would like Matthew Hurt. He's an interesting player. I like the two-motion jump shots. How about Jones out of Alabama? You a fan of him, Kyle? Versatile defensive player. Can handle the ball for you. He doesn't shoot much, but he can do a lot else for your team.

Smart player. Plays hard. I'm really into Jones. Lefty. I have my list of best interior passers and he's on there. Him and Gruba and Mobley. That's a good one. Short roll playmaking.

Ooh, be nice to watch him with a shot making guard like Dame or something like that. Who's your go-to sleeper now? Somebody's not going to go in the top 20 probably. KLC. Besides Jones Jones how about

JT Thor sleeper in the sense that he's super raw I mean 6'8 6'9 versatile defender very athletic you know shot below 30% from three as a freshman in Auburn but I like his mechanics

he can he's explosive for you JT Thor is a I'd say, a guy that could exceed the draft slot if he's an early second rounder or a late first. I like Isaiah Jackson. He should not go in the top 20 based on my big guy thing, but I just feel like he's... I know what he is.

I think you're right about that. He'll be in a playoff series. He's like how Nick Claxton played for Brooklyn this year. Like, wow, Nick Claxton, where did this come from? We know that type of guy. We know what that is. I really like Westkamp. He can shoot it.

As a second rounder, I just think that guy plays in the league 10 years. And Kyle Mann told me, 42-inch vertical leap? 41? Unless I'm looking at the spreadsheet wrong. That's what I saw. 42-inch vertical.

Joe Weisgap. So he's for second round. My favorite guy for like the last 12 picks. What is going on with this Jared Butler thing? Can we walk me through like what the fears are with him medically that would make him basically not be a top 20 pick i mean he was cleared i believe he was clear so he should be okay there unless there's some individual teams that have lingering concerns about that because

you know it can change over the course of time but i mean there's no doubt like i've talked to some people that like him more than mitchell i, a little bit younger, a little bit better of a shooter in terms of he's proven it over the course of time. Mitchell had one great season shooting the three, still a subpar free throw shooter. So, you know, Baller has a lot of supporters around the league that really like what he can turn into. 6'2", guard, plays hard on defense.

There's just so much to like about him. Kyle, have you read stuff about him where he's like one of those great guy guys? I haven't heard of him. The other guys are just talk. He basically sounds like Gandhi. Everybody just raves about what an unbelievable guy he is. He just, I don't know. Like who?

I was going to say sort of like how people talk about KOC. It's kind of the same thing. KOC, same thing. Just endless praise. Just say something. You've got to poke a hole in this guy. No, I mean. So he was really good last year, and they won the title,

and everybody says he's an awesome guy, and the only reason he kind of fell off the map was because of some medical stuff that he got cleared on, and I don't really understand what I'm missing. I guess it's a question of if it's gone, if the issue's gone or if it's like good enough for him to play i guess that's the thing you would weigh i mean he's the kind of guy i think you could pair with like a bigger playmaker and he would really thrive because he can really shift either role he can really shoot he can really create another guy that was like really high throughout like high school and

everything's jalen johnson he just gets forgotten and not talked about. He had a really weird year at Duke. People have dinged him. We kind of quit on Duke, right? People have dinged him for leaving in that weird year. I mean, he's a talented player. Like,

uh, could be like a high transition creator at some point, big physical presence, interesting player. And then our workout guy who I don't trust, as you know, I don't trust the workouts, but,

uh, they run sharp, lost a bunch of weight and was making, I don't trust the workouts, but, uh, they run sharp, lost a bunch of weight and was making, making threes in the workouts. Everybody got all excited about him, but it, it always makes me nervous when the guy gets an awesome shape right before he's about to basically get a job, but then you get the job, but do you stay in the same shape? Like, why weren't you in that shape last year at North Carolina?

Like, I just have more questions than answers from that. I like Sharp. I still like him. He seems like my kind of guy. But he was 20 pounds heavier during his college season, right? 15, 20 pounds? I don't think it's a bad thing for him to get leaner. He's shown that he can play at a heavier weight.

I think he could just be even more mobile as a switchable defender in the NBA. I mean, I look at it as a good thing that he's done that in such a short amount of time. I mean, that guy plays freaking hard, dude. He works hard. I'm a big fan of Sharp. Well, you compared him to Rashawn Holmes, who I've always enjoyed and wanted the Celtics to get for like three years. Where was he just? I'm looking up out of curiosity, his 2020 high school rankings. Was he a high recruit? Number 12.

He was a Montverde guy, I think. I'm pretty sure, wasn't he? Rank 12. Yeah. Oh, he was in rank 12. All right. So that's an interesting one, right? Where you have to guess am i getting

rope-a-doped because you're in shape for these workouts or were you a really high recruiter just kind of had a fucked up year at north carolina you're out of shape but now you're in shape and now i'm actually getting a really good guy to discount i've seen him mocked as high as like like like right after the lottery and some people really really like him i i'm'm kind of, I think like late first round is kind of, you know, I'm not trying to compare him directly, but sort of the Tony Bradley thing. Like I didn't like the reach for him there. Like that kind of a big, I just don't know about. Bigs in general, I'm just really hesitant.

Like you were talking about, especially the springy ones. With Charlotte, yeah. If you draft them, you very, very rarely see the return on your watch. It's usually the team that gets them second, like the New Orleans types. They get to see them mature and come into their own. Evan Mobley is kind of the exception to that because he has the switchability. He has the playmaking. All the arguments for Evan Mobley are what make him kind of the exception

because he could be an offensive hub for you. Well, it's interesting. You think about free agency. And in free agency, who are the guys that are always overpriced? It's the 3 and D guys. It's the, you know, the Jay Crowder types

are always going to make $10 million a year. And then you see these teams feeding on the fringes and they're grabbing the big guys and it's like one year, $2.5 million or two years, $10 million. Or you can get somebody like Ennis Cantor on the fringes and they're grabbing the big guys and it's like one year, two and a half million, or two years, 10 million, or, or you can get somebody like Ennis Cantor for a year. You just take his contract for nothing for 5 million bucks. Those guys are always available at half the price of the three and D guys. So I don't know why I would take a big guy in the

draft over a three and D guy if I didn't have to. And especially like you look at this draft, like, let's say, let's say Sharp ends up being as good as all the big guys we already mentioned. Like, it's possible and I could get him at 28. I don't know.

I think there's an inefficiency. A guy we haven't mentioned that I think is interesting is Nashon Highland, Bones Highland. Like, KLC, where did you have him eventually 30th i believe on my board right now yeah is it just that he wears number five and has the same haircut or

he reminds me of emmanuel quickly like he physically is like emmanuel quickly like quick shifty dribble shooter like lanky um he's crafty around the rim too yeah he could be a value play for somebody at that range, I think. Yeah, he's a bucket. I want you guys to know I was the first person out on BJ Boston. This was like over a year and a half ago at Sierra Canyon. I just didn't get it. He was like the number six, number seven prospect or whatever.

And I was like, I don't get it. He seems like a gunner. Before we go, Kyle, the Kentucky guys always overachieve as pros over and over again. It's one of the safest bets you can make is the Kentucky guy went 10 picks later than he probably should have. And then the pros it's like, wait, what happened? Why didn't that guy go higher? Uh, so we have Isaiah Jackson's or anybody else, any other high Kentucky recruits that you feel like could be steals into the first round, second round? In this draft, no, honestly.

I mean, Terrence Clark, rest in peace. I mean, he was a guy that was going to be in that conversation. BJ Boston, I know. I've heard too many things about, like, I know I mocked him in our thing in, like, 28 because I thought it was worth the gamble for the upside that he could be something. I've just heard so many things about confidence confidence issues with him yeah and physicality

it could happen I hope it does for him but it's just too and then Isaiah Jackson like we talked about like you're you're gambling reaching for him early because he's so foul prone is the offense going to be there super talented rim protector though. My guy Joe Weiskamp. I know he's going to 10 to 12 years and at least $160 million contract. When do shooters go out of style?

Duncan Robinson really has a chance to make $80 million for four years, something like that. Somebody's going to restrict their offer sheet him and overpay him, I think. Yeah, I've heard he's going to get paid big time this offseason. Who do you think it's going to be?

Not that many teams have cap space. Yeah, but then again, the sign-and-trade possibility. There could be a lot of sign-and-trades. Cap space exists. It's a real thing. It matters to have. But it's been proven you can go to anybody just have to work out a sign and trade it give someone back to miami for whatever amount

of money it is yeah marcus smart for the ninth pick what's the right pick in a market smart trade it's just KFC in your opinion. Middle of the first round, 14, 15, something like that. Oh, that's, you're going to take a little too high. You're going to take some hits now in the Celtics. Yeah, I know.

I really want it to be like nine with the Kings. It's a win now guy. Who knows? All right, guys. This was really fun. Kyle, I don't necessarily agree with you On Zyre Williams but I do agree that he's undervalued

Yeah I think it's getting silly That he's gonna fall like basically out of the top 15 You were impressed With him in person at Sierra Camp I forgot that you had the I didn't go in person I just watched on TV I just thought he was good

Is it weird I like that he went to Stanford. I always feel like you go to a place like Stanford, you've got to, you know, you can't like kind of not do homework at Stanford. I know these guys are one year and out, but you can't kind of cheat the class thing at Stanford. So that makes me think maybe there's more going on than just basketball with him,

which I kind of like, I don't know. Didn't they have a big admission scandal where people cheated to get in, though, I thought? No, the coaches got paid off. That was totally different. That was a water polo. KOC, what's your media plan this week?

You doing pods every day? Kyle and I on Monday are going live on Green Room, I believe, at 5 p.m. Eastern, 2 p.m. Pacific, and doing a whole bunch of other draft content over the course of the week. We're doing something Wednesday too on green room. I think Kyle, Monday and Wednesday,

uh, we have ringer NBA mock draft draft on Wednesday. Yes, that's right. Okay, good. And then Casey's popping back on Thursday. We're doing a little live BS thing on Thursday.

Uh, guys, this is a pleasure. Thanks for popping on. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Charks for stopping by as well. Always awesome to see him. Glad he's doing really well too.

It's really nice to have him around for the draft. Good to see you guys. We will see you on The Ringer this week. I don't have I don't have I don't have I don't have I don't have I don't have

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