The Bill Simmons Podcast - An NBA Power Poll, the Surprise Celtics, the Queen Conundrum, and Fake Trades Galore With Rob Mahoney

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney to discuss all the NBA teams in a power poll before talking about their favorite TV shows of the year (2:54). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Rob Mahoney Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Get Gameday Deals all season long only on Uber Eats. Order Now. This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Don’t settle for just any insurance when there’s State Farm. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by the Ringer podcast network where we put up a new rewatchable on Monday night. We did shampoo 50 years later with Cameron Crow and Sean Fantasy. And if you like movies like singles and Jerry McGuire and almost famous and say anything, and you didn't think we could weave a 50-year-old rewatchable's movie. with all of those movies and get a lot of good anecdotes and stories from the guy who directed those movies. Think again because this podcast was awesome. Please go check it out. Go check out our new Ringer podcast. Game Over with Max Calabry and Rich Paul. We launched the first one on Monday.

It's going to be Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I already making some news with the first one. But high hopes for that podcast. Really fun to work on. And I'm glad to have Max back talking sports. Glad to have Rich talking sports. Who knew Rich had so many takes? All right, then don't forget about our music box series. We had the Jeff Buckley documentary last week. We have one about WizKid coming this week. It's December 11th.

It's about WizKid and basically the history of Afrobeats. It's really, really, really cool. Please check it out Thursday night and then it will be available on HBO Max all week. Coming up on this podcast, Rob Mahoney, who has someone up and on all season, But we made up for it by going for almost 100 minutes. I threw a power pole at them from 30 to 1, and we went through it, and we talked about every team. Just all kinds of questions, fake trades,

philosophical discussions. Rob was more excited about the Celtics than I am. We covered it all, and it's all next. We're going to take a break. We're going to talk about Pearl Jam. Oh, no, we're not going to talk about them. They're going to sing for us, and then we're going to bring in Rob Mahoney.

And I did all this for the NBA Cup. We can talk about the NBA Cup on Thursday. So Rob Mahoney next. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field, but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up. But only one is stopping a touchdown.

You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team. So don't settle for just any insurance when it comes to get and help you need. State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. all right we were recording this tuesday morning pacific time this guy has not been on my podcast all season and that's my fault but you are a busy guy rob mahoney it's true and be a show you johanna has co-opted you for the prestige tv show you're just doing a lot of stuff you're in the big pick sometimes um i'm still taking it personally though you know like i now just have a lifetime grudge against tim legler

all because of you bill i don't know thanks a lot fuck you tip legler um we're doing this before For the NBA Cup. So I think I might do something at the Cup on the top. Do you care about the NBA Cup, is my question. I've chosen to care about the Cup. Has it given me a reason to believe that the basketball will be like above and beyond? Absolutely not. But I like to find a little something to care about in the regular season, even if it's somewhat arbitrary.

I've landed in the camp of, I like watching basketball where the players care. I don't really care about the reason why they care. but as long as they care, I'm in. And it feels like they care. They can care because of the money, because the courts look weird, because there's less games on, and they know the other players are watching.

I don't know all the reasons, but the intensity is there. So that's why I'm going to watch. But ultimately, like, it took me 10 minutes to remember who won last year, and I genuinely don't remember who won two years ago. Who won two years ago? Was it the Lakers?

It was the Lakers, I believe. That's probably why I blocked it on my mind. All right, so I invited you on. this is going to be a long mandering pod where we go through a power pole that I sent you that you might disagree with some of the choices

and we're going to go from 30 to 1 and I wanted to hit each team and occasionally have a question as I go through the teams that I want to raise and I did not send you the questions because you're a pro you don't need the questions

you're ready to roll you can go blind I appreciate that but the drags is our first group in the power pole pole. Yeah.

And I think Washington is the worst team in the league. I don't know if that's going to stay, but right now they're the worst team in the league. And yet I don't begrudge any decision they've made. I know they're going to be able to trade McCollum or Middleton or just buy them out. Their roster doesn't make sense. I don't really care. I like some of their players.

I like some of their assets. They have some flexibility. I don't really have a lot of notes on Washington, but do you have any notes? I think you're right on that they're just an. a different class of losing, and I'm with you. I like a lot of the prospects, big picture. It's going to need to suss itself out in terms of who is actually important here long term.

But Alex Sar's development has been a great story. They've had a ton of injuries. There's a lot of reasons why they are here versus like 28th on this list. The number one reason might be the defensive attention span of the Washington Wizards is one of the most disastrous things in the NBA. If you are sitting courtside at a Wizards game and walk too quickly to your seat, every wizard will turn and look at you. So this is just what a young team is at this point, and that's okay.

Yeah, they have a, it's their defensive rating is almost 124, which is impossibly high. Yeah. Like if you had a 124 offensive rating, you would be among the best teams of all time. They're also, they're minus 15.6. They're doing everything right. And it's a draft that we feel like there's three franchise guys, and it might even be a fourth one that emerges. And they've played it perfectly.

The Avda trade, you know, in retrospect, not awesome, but also maybe not put it in this position. All right, I don't have any questions about Washington. I do have questions about New Orleans, who's number 29 on my list. They're 3 and 22, which is amazing because I like nine of their players, eight of their players. But do you like them in the roles they are playing right now? I'm just saying as assets kind of like them.

Sure. But so I tweeted this last night. I really hated the Derek Queen trade. I thought it was actually irresponsible and fireable to not put protections on the pick. And even if they had put a top three on the pick, I still think Atlanta does the trade. It's a huge asset.

It's probably the biggest asset in the Yana sweepstakes if we have sweepstakes. And yet I also really like Derek Queen. I liked him in the draft. I've thoroughly enjoyed watching him in these games. he's got just this extra competitive side. Like, he's really competitive. He's a really interesting offensive player.

He's kind of moved into this one-of-one zone of where you see people like Schengoon or, you know, there's just certain players where we're like, I'm not seeing that anywhere else. And I kind of feel, I don't know what he is. He might be a Sib defensively. You might never be able to win with him. But offensively, he's fascinating.

And I think he's advanced. And it's interesting because he's played against all these dudes because he's always been one of the best players. I think that's why Dumar's life them so much. So trading that asset for him on paper was the right move. It was just the asset they gave up

was so terrible that it's kind of overshadowed the move, but I still like the player. So it makes sense? Wouldn't that be the greatest accomplishment for him in his career to just overcome this disaster trade that I think would hang around the neck of almost any other player who are involved in that circumstance?

But he is so good. And so demonstrably and obviously talented and skilled in the exact thing that Biggs can transform their team with, which is running offense. If you can be a Shangoon like hub, like put Nicola Yokic in his own category. But I like the Shangoon

comparison because they have the same like wiggle through the defense kind of drive. Like Der Queen improbably has one of my favorite spin moves in the NBA. There's just a lot to his game that really, really works in ways that obviously with the Pelicans broadly do not work. He's a

Half-court possible, like, elite, elite, elite half-court guy. And he already has a couple really fun, like, he did one yesterday to take the lead against the spurs with, like, on Cornette, where he goes to the basket, but somehow slides into the defender and all of a sudden he's getting a lay-up. And you're like, I don't even know he never was by the guy. How did he get a lay-up? Everything seems to go in. He's also a really good passer, but you can definitely run a top-10 offense through. him at some point. So, you know, should they have put the protection on the pick?

Fuck yeah. Everyone should have been fired for not doing that because the trade. But I really like the player. And to me, I was trying to think, like, who are their actual keepers if you had to say? Because I think fears, I don't know what fears is. He's certainly not a bust. I don't know if, you know, that somebody, like, when you think of like the situation, Cleveland's in with Garland, who I think

would be the best possible upside for somebody like Fears, but Garland could still get targeted by everybody. But I still think Fears is a keeper. I think Queen's a keeper, and I think Murphy is a keeper, even though they might trade him, which we'll talk about in a second. Are there any other keepers on this roster for you?

That might be it. And Murphy, as you mentioned with the trade illusions, like, is just so roundly valuable to every other team in the league that maybe he seems like a keeper, but you get the one-offer it's too good to pass up on. I could absolutely see that.

Otherwise, I'm with you that there are a lot of individual players that I like on this team. I mean, frankly, Sadiq Bay has been playing really good basketball lately for a team that really has given him no reason to do that other than trying to get healthy again and put his career back on track. But between him and Herb Jones, even like, I mean, Kavanaugh is getting like D&PCDs for the Pelicans these days. There's a lot of guys who I think are situationally useful but are not useful put all together. and like that is a bummer of a situation and thank goodness for Derek Queen for making it watchable and I think to your point about him being

a player of like real import for this team and a keeper in exactly that way the fact that Queen is so surprising as a ball handler and as a creator that he's doing all these things that he has the unusual footwork it doesn't just make for like good league pass fodder it makes for genuinely inventive playmaking

it makes him really tough to pin down even for like the example you said with Luke Cornett Luke Hornet's a really good positional defender, and he's trying to figure this guy out. Yeah. Well, we'll see if he could be the face of the Vegas franchise in three years when they're the Las Vegas.

Probably not the Pelicans, the Las Vegas Ducees or whatever they call themselves. You can't be the Duce's. You can't volunteer yourself as number two. Yeah, good point. Oh, yeah, Aces, Duce's. I'll come up with a better run. I have three trades.

I'm just going to throw you quick for them. I would trade Herb Jones right now. I think at the contract he's at literally what the Lakers need and it's easy it's like connect Cleber in a 2031 first calling in and now you have

yeah that's like just call that in he's on a good contract and maybe it would even take more than that I really like Alvarado for one of these contenders and I was going through trying to find the perfect team and was looking at Houston for a while but I'm not sure I want to mess

with the Reed Shepard thing because I still feel like how he grows is going to determine so much for them but Minnesota seemed nice which is easy that's like Dillingham and you do a pick swap in 32

or especially from Minnesota very quietly Rob Dillingham got yanked out of the rotation last night we're getting like real live Bones Highland minutes and I mean it's really rough Bones did what he could with those but yeah the idea of someone

like Alvarado in that spot I do quite like to Yeah. I mean, honestly, from what we've seen in Rob, he's young, but is more just a contract that you can exchange for Alvarado maybe more than an asset unless he shows something. Yeah, it's tough. That's why I swap has to be in there. But the one I really like for them, and Detroit has some flexibility. So basically they can trade Sasser and let's say a 2030 unprotected first for Alvarado, which seems like a lot. Maybe you put a top three on it. whatever, and it would save New Orleans four million. They'd get a pick. And then you'd put Alvara... Like, could Detroit be more Cobra Kai? Actually, they could.

Let's put Jose Alvarado in the team and have him trying to do the sneak around as somebody's inbounding the ball and then steal... Like, all the annoying stuff he does on top of all the other annoying guys they have. That would be tremendous. It's just perfect.

He's like, he's out of central casting. So sign me up for that trade. And then here's my last one. I was trying to think of a clips hail Mary. The clips are like three wins or three losses outside of the 10th seat. It's not like their season's over. Do you roll the Zion dice? Have we reached that point?

Is this like the, I'm down a million dollars at the casino in Vegas and I'm just going to put another million on red and try to win it all back? Have we reached that point if you're the clippers? Is that a thing you've done? No. Okay. I'm the hypothetically movie scene. Okay.

The clippers are in the movie in Vegas. It's Saturday night. It's four in the morning and they're down a mill. and there's like, you know, the casino boss is watching them and there's some bad guys in the background and ready to beat them up if they don't make the money back. That's where they are right now. It's the kind of bet where as you try to make it at the table,

they make you sign some kind of waiver just to make sure that this is all above for it. So I think with the Zion situation, that would have to be the case too. Like they're just in such a weird spot. And frankly, like, I salute you for trying to find the silver lining and where the clippers are right now as far as their distance from 10th place,

but they feel kind of hopeless. They feel pretty lifeless, to be honest with you. The silver lining for them, I don't know if you've watched any quips. Too much. Kauai's moving around pretty well. He's doing fine. Like he,

there's still some moments for him on defense where it's like, oh, you know, I'm sure like there's contenders and people with big contracts that are also looking at him. Yes. Kind of going,

huh, I think they'd be nuts to trade for him because God knows when he's playing. But like, the Zion trade's easy because they have the Collins and Bogdanovich expirings. You throw the Pelicans at 2030 Unprotected First. I don't think the Pelicans want to be in the Zion business anymore. I can't imagine they're going to extend that deal.

Maybe you even put a top three in the first. But the team I really wanted to take a swing for him was the Warriors, but I couldn't figure out the money. It would basically be like a five for three. Those things never happen. But the Quippers, so just think conceptually, Hardin Kawai

Zion Zubots and some sort of like person in the corner who's just ready to make a shot and you just had this really weird team of guys that can go one on one depending on who your weak spot is and you have some rebounding

and then if Zion turns into Zion again and maybe they could just spend a ton of money on him on like what the Pelicans have done to try to help his help. Maybe you're dominating the boards. Zion's had moments over the last couple years that you're like, wow, is this one of the 10 best guys in the league? You seem dubious.

Well, Zion playing is rarely the problem. As you mentioned, it's Zion not playing. That's the issue for the Pelicans and would definitely be an issue for a Clippers team that has the same concerns about Kauai, that is out Bradley Beale for the year already, that's had Derek Jones out of the lineup, and that's been kind of a disaster missing him.

Like, they've had so many guys in and out that the idea of investing in yet another player who might not be available, I just don't know if spiritually they could bring themselves to do that. Counter. The more players you have who might not be available, odds are like three of them will be available. So you're advocating.

If you're advocating. Maybe two of them will be available at all times. This is like a cyborg model. Maybe you can put Zion's arm and Kauai Leonard's core and maybe there is a workable player between five of these guys. Can I get two of these guys? at any time. Anyway, those would be my three fixes.

Number 28 is Brooklyn. Somehow, six and 17, a couple Nets fans of my life have been chirping about the porter trade. I would urge them to settle down. He's been good, though. Yeah, sure. Sure.

Yeah. Fine. That's probably the appropriate response. But he has been quite good in a situation where I don't think that was necessarily a given. He beat the Celtics. Like, he just destroyed them in Boston

right in front of my dad, running the same play over and over again. My dad was furious at Missoula after the game. I was thinking about a Porter Warriors kind of match, which I know has been floated around out there, but I thought, you know, from a money standpoint, it gets a little tough because it would have to be like a three-for-one and the nets already have 100 players.

But conceptually, just putting Porter in that Kaminga spot, somebody who's been in big games, somebody who's a streaky score, which I kind of feel like the Warriors need. They need that one wildcard guy who can rebound a little bit. I thought that was mildly interesting. I don't really know what Brooklyn does.

The next team is teams I have some questions on. Number 27, Sacramento, 6 and 18, with a net rating of 10. Rob, I just want to go through this sequence with you just to commemorate how amazing it was. Please. After the light the beam, loose to the Warriors and 7, just everything that happened.

they drafted Carter who got hurt and missed this whole rookie season right ahead of Ware and McCain. So you start there. They spent $74 million on Demardo Rosen basically because they were at a furniture store and they had a full living room, but somebody was like, hey, we have this couch for half off.

And like, whoa, that's a nice couch. And they just bought the couch. They had no idea where to put it. Stacked it on their other couch. I'm sure it'll work. We'll put the couch on top of the couch. they gave some bonus a $186 million extension like a year early for no reason

competing against nobody that was weird they turned Mike Brown and a Doug Christie Yep that was odd They turned Deeran Fox into Zach Levine a 27 spurs pick That will probably be in the 20s And a 2013 one wolf's pick Which reunited DeRosen and Levine

Who already had failed together in Chicago They watched Tyrese Halliburton lead Indianapolis to the finals. They gave King and Murray $140 million, which I think is more than Jalen Johnson got. Is that true? Right at the same number is right in the Jalen Johnson neighborhood. They gave Dennis Schrooter $29 million for two years and then signed Russell Westbrook, who immediately took Dennis Schroeder's job.

And was the rare situation of they have to now trade Dennis Schrooter who they can't trade yet because they just signed him. And now they have to get rid of them. They have zero tradable assets except for Kian Ellis and Sabonis, and they buried Kian Ellis. And I don't even know if he has value anymore. And I mentioned all of this because this is the team that's probably getting the number one pick. When you do that many dumb things in a row, this is how the NBA works. They just hand you the number one pick and you get to basically start over.

But what did I miss? Did I miss anything? I think you hit all the main salient points. So in terms of the number one pick, is that the basketball gods awarding them? Or is that a shadowy cabal within the league office freezing an envelope? No, I don't think

the shadowy cabal wants to help The Sacramento Kings. Yeah, I just think this is how the league works sometimes where it's like, wow, you've done that many stupid things in a row? See, we say that, but if that were true,

wouldn't the Kings have had many, many first round picks over the years? Oh, that's a really good point. Like, they operate in a different nebulous space than basically anyone else in the league. And you're right,

like, I would add only in terms of the bright spots this season, relatively speaking. Like, yes, a bonus has been out for now. There were bright spots? Well,

quite muted, but you know, a slight blinking light off in the distance that is Maxime Renaud, who's been giving them like actually decent minutes at the five.

Wow. This is what I'm clinging to watching Kings games. I'm like, can I just get more neat Clifford minutes, please? Can I get literally anything

with a pulse happening in this game that isn't like Zach Levine gunning for whatever it is that Zach Levine guns for? I think they are the wild card of league pass every night where you go to the games

and they're either down 30 or they're like beating Denver by 10 and you're like I just what's happening? Usually they're getting killed I don't know how to fix it it's the worst ownership situation in the league I think that's fair and you know Vivek seems like a nice guy

but this couldn't be worse from really the moment he bought the team I can't even imagine being a Kings fan I've never been, I guess I was in somewhat of a situation like this with the Patriots before the Solvents sold, but to be in a situation where your team is just owned by somebody who's just proven to be inept and then they won't sell the team, I don't know how you, at some point you, I don't know how you keep caring at the same level when there's no chance for it to get better because as long as this person's involved, it will never get better.

And not just inept, but very involved. Like, can we just get Vivek like a fidget spinner and get him an office in the corner? Like, I think we just need to keep him busy doing something that is not running this particular team. It's the team that didn't take Luca Donchich. And that alone would be the thing people mentioned for 10 years, but there's 40 other things to mention. Do you think has the Luca trade supplanted that did not take Luca Dantzich discord? It just kind of put them off in the shadow, giving them some cover. 26 Chicago I can't believe they've fallen to 26

they're 9 and 14 the moment Kobe White came back it just kind of fell apart and I don't I'm not to blame him but it just they had a nice thing going for a couple games without him and then when he came back I don't know what happened I have a small question on them did they A they passed on Queen to take a guy who's now out for the year the French guy who people thought they reached for anyway when they took him

that was bad in itself. It's, I was even, I searched Bulls Reddit. Did a deep dive on Bulls Reddit to find out of those info. Oh, it's grim. Did they pass on the Pelicans offer? Was the offer made for, we'll give you next year's first for the 12th pick? Nobody seems to know for sure if the Pelicans dangled that trade to anybody other than Atlanta at 13. My guess is like, if you like Queen that much, you probably dangled it.

him at 10, 11, 12. I would think, yeah. And if Chicago passed on that trade, fire everybody. Like, literally, if I own, and I don't even know the Bulls care about the team in Rhinstorfs,

I don't even know if they're following what's going on. But if they, that's one where you bring everybody to the office and be like, yo, we check the phone records. We saw Joe Dumars called on June 28th at 4.30.

Can you tell us what happened in the call and just grill them until they admit they turned it down? That's a fireball offense, in my opinion. That would be disastrous, especially given the way everything has turned out, where the Bulls are not even really

as competitive as they would like to be, which is just basically being the eighth seed. They're fighting, clawing to even be in the play and mix. And they're young guys, as you mentioned, like one of them is out for the season. Modus Buzell, who I like a lot, is doing well, but not blowing the doors off of anything necessarily. And all

of the oxygen has just been sucked out of their offense. Everything that they had going for them early in the year, all the shots that were falling aren't falling. No one really respects all that ball movement. No defenses are really like falling for it or getting pulled by it anymore. They're just daring them to beat them. And guess what? Like this collection of Chicago Bulls can't really beat people that way.

I really missed the two weeks when it seemed like Josh Giddy was a transformative superstar. That was really fun. He was just a triple double weight and happen every night. It was great times. Yeah, it was great times. Now they run a lot. They throw the ball around and they accomplish very little. Unfortunately, sometimes. the story of a Josh Gidey-led offense.

The last team I have in the Dregs, sadly, is Indiana at 6 and 18. Yeah. They have one two in a row. Yeah, so it felt like they rounded up the tanks when they had all those injuries to start this season. I picked them to go over when we did the overrunners for the year. I still don't think that was the wrong pick. I think they had all these injuries to start the year, and they had already not had

a halberton, obviously, and lost Turner. Yeah. But I do think there's a world where if you play this season 10 times, there's like six versions of it that play out like the Celtic season has, where the infrastructure and the guys you had and the guys who have had a taste in these playoffs kind of banded together and overachieved. But they just had so much bad luck with all this stuff. But the one thing is the Turner thing is a huge.

Thank God he didn't resign here for that money, I think, at this point, right? If you're them, Huff has the same stats. Yeah, it would have been pretty costly. And Turner, too, like his value is depleted without Halliburton out there. Like their synergy is kind of generating what it is that he does so well offensively.

Honestly, though, given those two gap years for Boston and Indiana, the Celtics can kind of, like, if they're overly competitive and do really well as they have been and continue to play this way, and then get Jason Tatum back,

later this season, next season, whatever, they have enough talent to continue to be a really high-level contending team. The Pacers, though, could use that top five pick or so. see, this is not a, it's a disastrous outcome in the present tense because these games are a really

rough watch. So many guys are just in a way over their heads right now. But given all those injuries, given the needs of the team, given that it's kind of a natural pivot point with Halliburton's injury, this is not the worst possible outcome for them. I agree. I'll be interested to see where

they lean over the next like 30 days. Yeah. Because now we're in a situation now where you really have a chance to get a top three-pick, but if you, like, if they're 12 and 22 in a couple weeks, that all of a sudden, now you're in the 7 to 10 range, which will still be good in this draft. All right, we're taking a break, and then we're going to life support.

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Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. The life support group led off by the L.A. Clippers at 6 and 18. I had a small question. I already mentioned it to you,

but would anyone actually trade for Kauai? Is that a guy who, does he have trade value? I guess is my question. Like, I feel like Embed does not have trade value. I agree. I don't think Paul George has trade value. I think he, maybe two months from now, if you played every game and look good, maybe a mild piece of it, does Kauai have trade value?

Our front office is like looking at tape of him and discussing him and wondering if they should make a play for him as like a, very, very discount superstar move. I think the answer with him is not that kind of opportunism. It's not like the savvy front office that's like making its calculated gamble. It's who is going to be desperate enough

to talk themselves into something like that? Who will just be on the edge of if we don't pull out like a guaranteed playoff spot this season? We're all going to lose our jobs. Our team is falling apart. And that's where I don't know who that team is. That team that's really going to be so desperate that they would roll the dice on

everything that Kauai is, but most importantly what he isn't, which is in every night superstar, you can sort of build your foundation around and have a baseline expectation that he will play. Yeah, the only team I could think of was Detroit. They're way too good, though.

Well, I know, but that's the only one where I could see them having a meeting about it and be like, wow, we could just turn Tobias Harris and Ivy in a contract into Kauai and just put Kauai in the Tobias Harris spot. Could we make the finals if we did that? and then they would reach out to Kauai and Kauai would be like, I don't like cold. No, thank you.

Please don't do this. But that's the only one where it's like, if basically he's not that he would be free because I like Ivy and Harris, I think is a valuable veteran for them. It would cost them something. But that's the only one where it's like, oh, this is a noticeable upgrade. And then when you watch the trade, who I think is really good, so much depends on Kade in the last three, four minutes of these games. I think that gets easier to stop.

a playoff series when you're just watching it for two straight weeks and they're just doing the same thing every time they don't have that second wild card something yet and kawai would be the highest possible version of that if it was healthy but i still feel like they need i don't think they need to go all in they certainly don't need to trade for anthony davis or anything like that but they need some sort of somebody maybe it could be ivy i don't know maybe is there a cleveland case just because the problem is they can't they can't do trades well yeah They're over the apron. It has to be a one for one where the contracts are like exact is the only way to do it.

Unless they like shed salary, then did it. There are some like funky ways to kind of get around the can't aggregate salaries, rules. It's all like needlessly complicated. I think it would be very difficult to engineer. But in terms of a team that needs some of what Kauai does and might also be feeling the pressure a little bit to provide it almost immediately. Yeah. They're a team that I would at least think about. it's certainly the team that has to feel way different than they did a month ago

where it's like wow we could really make a playoff run here to now it's it's December 9th they have to be looking at the east going we can make the finals like absolutely we can make the finals there's no question are we good enough to do that what is the move and they have a lot of flexibility to do it so I would rather see the quipers trade Zion 23 Milwaukee 10 15, I still like this team and I don't think we ever saw it. No. Did all these guys ever play together? We never really saw everybody together other than for like two games.

And I still like the concept of Janus and shooting. And we just, you know, the thing is the east, the way it is, they're still going to be a playing team if they don't trade Janus. Sure. We'll be in the mix for that stuff. I mean, do you think we will see another Janus game in a Bucs uniform? Or is the alarm blaring that loudly Or is it possible that once he comes back

From the CAF stuff that we might see that team? I don't think anyone's trading for him Unless they see him running around for two weeks. This is fair. This is like the decade of being afraid of calf injuries. This is what's happened. I have a hipster question for you. Like, you know, with like alternative music

Be like Pearl Jam was actually Stone Temple Pilots. Like those people that tried to zag against the famous bans. Yes. Was the Miles Turner signing slash Dane buyout actually worse than the Dere Queen trade? It hasn't been good. No one is going to argue that's been good. But really, like, at least the Pelicans got Derek Queen, who's really good.

You know, really, really good. The Bucks might have to now trade Janus while also paying Dame for the next few years. also overpaying Miles Turner, that actually might be more of a disaster. If you're looking at it, I mean, it's more of a disaster that they didn't put the protections

on the Atlanta pick. I get it. But if you're actually looking at who got less out of this whole thing, it might actually be Milwaukee. It might be, but I at least understand why it happened. It does have a whiff of like,

what if the LeBron Cavs trade for Antoine Jameson and Shaq? Like, there is that kind of vibe of like the last ditch effort before the disaster strikes. but I can at least understand that kind of desperation as you mentioned with the Pelicans

there's just like no justification for it it wasn't needed it wasn't necessary you could probably have pulled off that deal without like with much heavier protection on that pick and so why it turned out the way it did no one really knows except Joe Dumars why this turned out the way it did

I think all of us could look at the bucks and say yes we don't agree with the mechanics and it's going to come back to bite them but this is a team that's on the edge and feels like they need to do something dramatic I hated it, but I understood it. I didn't like it.

Next category is a really fun one. Thanks to all these teams for a lot of league past joy this year. The Young and the Frisky, starting out with number 22, Utah. Will Hardy might disagree with the Young and Frisky, at least the frisky part of that as of late. I don't know if you... True, he did get mad. He did get mad. He got big mad.

He wants these motherfuckers to fucking play harder. Which fair. And honestly, that's the way you have to coach these. teams in this range sometimes. Yeah, I wouldn't call Giants-George consistent, but he has had some moments. But this team's been in some fun games this year.

Especially, like, for us on the West Coast, like, they've just been in some good ones. They've been in some real, like, high-offense battles. They're doing everything right. 21 Portland, who really fell off over the last couple weeks. In their defense, they have no guards. Like, they just have no one healthy.

They're starting city Sosoko. That is the state of things for the placers. Yeah, it was tough because they threw a lot on Drew's plate and it went great for about two weeks, but he's in his mid-30s and got hurt immediately. Charlotte, number 20, 7 and 17, two wins against Toronto. Zach ridiculed me when I made them my number six pick

in the league pass draft a couple weeks ago. They're a great league pass team. I love watching Charlotte. Yes. I've really enjoyed it. I just really enjoy when they have all their guys. Brandon Miller is one of those guys. If you catch it on the right night,

you're like, this guy might make five all-embaid teams. It's where the weak part of their team is Lamello. Not knowing what you're getting from him game to game. And then even when he plays, then they deferred him too much. And that's the part they can't figure out. And I also don't think,

do you think he has trade value at this point? He's such like a matter of taste that if he does have trade value it's with only a very select group of front offices at this point between honestly like the injury history is a huge part of it everything you take away from like

is he a winning player in that whole conversation and then within it not having his best individual season like that's just a couple too many disqualifiers to really have a robust trade market. Who hangs up faster Hardin for Lamello straight up? I think the Hornets have to hang up like that doesn't get them anywhere

does it? it makes them pretty interesting. That's just you're getting out of the Lamello business once and for all. Yeah. I think that I agree with you. I think the Hornets hang up faster. Personally, as someone who likes watching the Hornets, I don't want to watch the James Harden Hornets.

That's not what I'm signing up for. Yeah, I want to watch a con canipal Hornets. Amen. Well, this leads to one of my big questions. Could this be the best NBA draft since 1996, this draft we have now? And I'm going to use it by this way to assess it. How many guys from this draft could you see conceivably making an all-MBA team

being one of the 15 best guys in the league? I'm just going to list some names and you told me when to stop. Okay. And the threshold was all-N-B-A, right? One all-M-B-A team. Flag. Harper. You're pausing.

No, I'm in. I was saying keep rolling. I'm down for a potential. Dylan Harper, All-N-B-A. I could see Canipal. Edgecom? Maybe. Maybe.

I mean, it's maybe for all these guys. All-N-B-A is tough. Edgecom's like 15 years old. I don't even think he's fully through puberty yet. He's a baby. Vijay Edgecom could be a seven-time All-Star and never make an All-N-B-A team. True. All right, so this is all conceivably maybes.

Yes. Cedric Coward. I don't see it. All-Star, maybe. All-N-B-A You're not buying like this is the next Kauai You haven't seen any of that stuff

How many all-N-B-A teams Has Kauai made? He's made at least one Yes He certainly fits the one The best 15 guys once That's true Maybe Sedgerick Coward can have

Like that kind of peak season Where he does cut in But I don't necessarily see That kind of potential for him First team all defense 20 points a game Derek Queen Oh, you thought about it

I'm tempted. It's not inconceivable. I have for the first six, or yes or maybe, for all six. Ace Bailey is when it starts to go sideways. Yeah, that's a no. So it's six, and maybe one that we're not even thinking of, because these drafts sometimes are like late. There's a late bloomer we didn't say.

So 1996, Iverson, Kobe, Nash, Ray Allen, Steyakovich, Marbury, Jermaine O'Neill, Sharif, Adorrahim, eight all-MBA guys pretty good it's fucking amazing three MVP's so even getting I was looking it up

like even getting six would be like the number two highest total I think for a draft yeah I was going to say oh three

but I don't think they have eight all-MBA guys yeah yeah and then there's a couple others that are like four I think that was

one five but for the most part really hard to find depth like this so all right next category I love Charlotte, by the way.

Keep doing what you're doing, Charlotte. Signs of Human Life is our next category. Number 19, Dallas at 9 and 16. Would you trade Anthony Davis? Because I would not. For what? I would ride this out for six more weeks. Yeah, I don't really see the urgency in it.

Me neither. I get the ultimate want to turn the page as a franchise I can understand, but Anthony Davis is really good. And honestly, when healthy, very good for this team. So I don't really see I'm not feeling that absolute push that we have to get this done

even by the trade deadline to be honest with you. I am only caring about Flag if I'm Dallas. What's good for Flag what's good for Flag is to play with Anthony Davis. That's it.

Put him together. It's also to play with Ryan Nemhart apparently. You know? My guy. Undrafted Free Agent Ryan Nemhart. Turns out

playing in big games for your entire high school and college life and then leading the NCAA and assists. Maybe you should be one of the 60 players drafted. Pretty good. When do you think who writes the first, what's the date of the first story about,

could the Mavericks be a stealth contender? When it's like, Kyrie could come back on, you know, February 22nd, they have a chance to be like a 9 or a 10 seed. Would you want to say, when does that all start, you think? Christmas?

Not this season, I don't think. There's no way, right? No. There's no way? Who is writing that story? I don't just, you know, people. Somebody. People might.

You know, maybe there's a whisper in some back alley somewhere. I didn't say it would be an credible person. Yeah, I don't think it would be super credible. I don't think they have that in them. But they're scoring again. I fully support them actually playing point guards. It's turned out to be like a masterful move for them. They've been much more enjoyable to watch and ultimately just much more successful.

The irony of one of the 10 best point guards ever, Jason Kidd, discounting the value of a point guard for three weeks makes you think he was trying to get Nico Harrison fired it doesn't add up it does not add up it does not add up at all

but maybe maybe the thinking is I am the point guard right as the coach I will manipulate the pieces on the board and control everything I can control and just have you know

my reasonable facsimile DiAngelo Russell classic traditional point guard who now cannot play on the court without a point guard chaperone maybe that was the thinking but did not work out regardless to be another fun Alvarado team by the way

Memphis number 18 a lot of signs of life the moment Zach Eady came back Wells is playing again Coward looks great and it's one of those things where it's like A I don't know if I care if John Moran comes back and then B it's like

would you think about trading Jaron Jackson and just trying to get more picks and building around young guys and I don't know. Do you need Jaron Jackson on this team? Do you like Jaron Jackson as like a high asset? Are you a Jaron Jackson fan? I am still a fan.

I think in part, I mean, what he is defensively is clearly potentially transformative for a lot of teams. I also think as far as Biggs go, his ability to drive, not just like shoot, but actually drive out of those situations. It's incredibly useful.

And it diversifies what Memphis does. when he's out there. I like the element that he brings to this team to a degree where I'm not rushing to get rid of Jaron necessarily either.

They do need some guard though, whether that's John Morant or eventually Scotty Pippen or eventually tied Jerome. One of those guys will eventually play and that'll probably help them

because God bless Vince Williams moonlighting at point guard and winning games and doing it is it's been an incredible process but I don't know that that's anyone's dream of what this team looks like.

Weirdly fun league past him. I think Edie is a huge part of that though. Yeah, like, and that's the thing, because before the early returns on Zach Eady in his NBA career felt a little novelty to me. It was like, you know, they would feed him in the post, he would get points. And then in other ways, both defensively and on the board sometimes, to be honest with you, would end up giving back a lot of those points. And so it was like, is this guy an actual difference maker in the NBA? I mean, he's been the Grizzly's best player in the vast majority of these games. He's like really changing the way that everyone around him is playing in a way that feels pretty sustainable, feels like something.

that the Grizzlies can rely on for potentially a long time. Like, this is a different guy than we saw last year. It's a bummer Charlotte passed on him at six a year ago because he's kind of exactly who'd be the fun missing piece for that team. And it was kind of dumb that they didn't take him or cling in anyway. Yeah, the only thing I was thinking about Jackson, if you're the Hawks and you're not getting Janus unless Jaylon Johnson is in the trade, I don't think.

And I'm not trading Jalen Johnson in a Yonis trade where I also have to give up that New Orleans pick. Like I just, what's the point in trading for Yonis if I can't then try to win the title with Yonis? I'm not giving away everything I have so Yonis can be in a slightly better position than he's in with the bucks. But if I could flip Porzengis's expiring

and that New Orleans pick and maybe one other pick for Jaron Jackson and put him in the defense, his ceiling on defense, with some of the other guys I have. Yeah. That's pretty interesting. And then if I'm Memphis and I could have a chance,

I'm not going anywhere anyway and I have a chance to get a top five pick and, you know, kind of move away from this model that doesn't work anymore anyway. I'm thinking about it. So if you're Atlanta in that scenario, are you looking to play Jackson at the five? Or you looking to play Johnson, Jackson, and Congo altogether? I Ocogu is my backup center

my crunch time lineup I just have length and switchability everywhere now right it's like I'm just and Jackson can do some of the stretch stuff that Porzingis does but defensively is just a different animal

right and now the no tray hawks there's a couple lineups you could put out there that's like Jesus you know I don't know I don't think I kind of dig it I hadn't really thought about Jaron Jackson is a fit for them, but he does kind of play into the way

that they're kind of styled right now. Yeah. Doesn't help. I think their rebounding is going to be the issue for them in the playoffs. And he's not helping that because he's a terrible rebounder for his position. Yeah. Number 17, Philly, just a quickie question. Do you have,

I think for Omba, Yoka, Chinas, and Luka have to be the three. Yep. Yonis if they're eligible, we should say. True. Yonis, I don't know if he's going to play enough games. But is Maxi, like right now in Penn as a first team NBA guy for you? I think he's going to end up one by default just because like, you know, between Wembe and potentially Luca and potentially Janus, like those guys getting disqualified. Maxi has made

a compelling case as anyone else in the league, basically. Would you have him, so let's say it's Maxie against Cade and Brunson and Ant. Is he the leader of those four? Because for me, I give him a slight edge because I just think what he's done day to day in the burden he has on that team and how many minutes he's playing and everything he has to do night to night and the joy he has and what an awesome teammate he seems like I just to me he would be the number one guy some of the Knicks fans would be like that's not fair brunson the Detroit fans would be like that's not fair we're winning with kade i think kade probably has the best argument but i honestly would have maxi over all those guys i think kate is the best argument

and is obviously the best player of that group just in a vacuum and yet i'm i'm with you i think Maxi, I think ultimately for me it would probably come down to Cade and Maxi because of how much Kate is driving, and as you said, how much the Sixers are relying on Maxi, to the point where there's really no question whose team that is anymore, like where the

future of Philadelphia's basketball lies, it's all Tyrese Maxi. And, I mean, VJ Edgecom and the other guards to a certain extent, but he's put them in, like, shifted them in an entirely new direction in gear. To do what he's done and to basically eradicate

the Embed and George contracts where Sixers fans don't even really care because they have Maxine Edgecom is just an amazing achievement. Is Jay win a second team all-NBA for you? Is who? Is it Jaylen Brown? Has he been one of the ten best players for you?

I want to talk about him for sure. To me, he has to be in. If he's not second, he's definitely third. I think it's probably going to depend on that dog fight of how much of a glut is there for the second team. Here's what's shocking about Jaylen. I mean, Janice isn't playing enough.

Jalen has a case for being the best forward in the league right now. Case for the best forward in the league. It's centers and guards across the boards. It's basically him versus Luca's not a forward, right? I don't think so, no. Jalen Johnson, Scotty Barnes, Towns, if you consider Towns of Forward. Yeah. It's like a weird forward situation here because we don't have Tatum.

But it's really all guards and centers. And I think Jalen has the best pure forward in the league right now. See Ackham? Like go through all the rosters. Well, did you say KD? Oh, KD, I guess. Yeah, I had him in, but I don't think KD's been one of the 10 best players. Like, I think Jalen's been more impactful than KD this year.

Jaylen's been going toe to toe with the best players in the league for three weeks, you know, is like the only real star on his roster. And it's like night after night has answered it. He's been really impressed. tremendous. I think shifting from obviously he's been a very good score for a long time, but a little more of a come and go score and bursts

and runs kind of guy. Becoming just one of the most reliable first option creators basically in the entire league in terms of like an every night basis putting up damn near 30 a night. The fact that the Celtics now have another one of those guys is pretty ridiculous for when Tatum comes back.

It's been just a remarkable trajectory for Jalen Brown from a season where I expected the excess, but thought it would come at more of a cost. And he's just been everything they've needed him to be. I'm stunned by this move that he has now where he fakes

like he's driving to the basket with his right hand and does the stop, the bend down, crossover, fallback, 12, 13 footer. It's unstoppable. And it's not a move that he really had until this year. He tried to do it for, but his dribble is always too high.

He would go picked. And he was like, and either I'm shooting threes, I'll shoot a 20-footer if I'm open or I'm going to the basket. Now it's kind of his offensive game. And now he has this sophisticated, he's averaging 16 two-point shots a night. Think about that, not even threes. And he's shooting almost 50%. So he's turned into this DeRosen, Kauai kind of two-point shooter.

I just think he's been awesome. And he's carried the load by, we'll talk about the Celtics in a second. Phoenix, I have at 16 in the signs of human life. just because they're over under us 31. The Brooks thing's incredible. And Brooks has become now the most underrated player of the decade. It's just like, Dylanbrook wins.

You can't refute it. Definitely changes the thing. I don't really fully understand the Phoenix thing. I mean, they're 14 and 10 or 15 and 10. I think they're 14 and 10. 14 and 10. The Gillespie piece is the part I don't understand the most because they actually needed him last year.

And there were moments where he looked good, but then Bud just never played him. Yeah. And now when you watch him, he looks like he could be an all-star. I know he won't. But you know what I mean? Like, he's way more talented than they gave him credit for last year when they actually needed him. I never understand that.

I mean, they beat the wolves last night without Devin Booker because Colin Gillespie turned into a fourth quarter supernova. And that's just been a kind of a regular occurrence where it's been an incredible shooter. He's, I mean, turned out, especially for his size, the playmaking has been really impressive. Like, he sees lobs and cross-court stuff that guards his size. usually don't, really, really impressed. Honestly, with his ball movement, but really the Suns overall, like I know their defense gets a lot of attention because of Dylan Brooks and kind of the edge

they play with now, but this is a group of guys who either weren't on the team or weren't in these roles a la Colin Gillespie who stepped in the season and just knew like that exactly how to play together. Like they just got the angles, the cuts, the timing, really remarkable and very surprising given the players that they were able to cobble together there, but it's just kind of worked.

And the coach is doing a great job. Do we're not, do we're not good? I feel like we have more good coaches than we might have had at any point this century. Where I look around the league and I'm like, that guy's a good coach. Yeah, that team's really well put together. We don't have a lot of Doug Christie's, I guess is my point. I feel like the general rules are always, there are like five exemplary coaches who really help you a lot. And there's five at the bottom that really kind of drag you down.

And everyone else is sort of in the soft, you know, middle of the bell curve or whatever. Now the bell curve seems higher, right? It's higher. And there's like maybe one or two guys in the league in terms of the bottom end of coaches. If that, I think the low-hanging fruit has just been picked up by basically every team out there to the point

that there's only so much you can do to really shoot your team in the foot. We also have a couple coaches, I think, have in career years, like Missoula, Spow. There's people who are just like doing foot. I think JJ's been really good. I don't understand the Lakers record at all

with some of the limitations they have. Some of the bad teams like the Nets coach is really good. I think the Raptors coach, I think that team's overachieve. All right, one more break and then with the top 15. This episode is brought to you by Sunwing.

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celebrating acts of kindness nationwide, with a chance at 100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop. Learn more at canadaswunderland.com. All right. We'll rip through the trade machine crew really quickly because we've talked about these teams already on my pot a bunch.

Toronto's 15 and 10. They fell back to Earth a little. They had some easy schedule stuff the first part. I'm still not sure about this team. Their fans were really chirpy when the record was good. That settled down a little bit.

The most important thing to me is that Barnes just feels, it still feels like he's gone up a level. And this is the most I've liked watching him. Ultimately, I'm not sure what the destiny of this team is. Their bench seems like it saves their ass a bunch with Shedd and Mamu and Hagbaji, all these. Like, it's a dick, they'll come in and they'll be down 10, all of some, they'll be up 8. I'm not sure what the move is with them either because I think it would be hard for them to make trades.

This is kind of their team. But they should be in that six to nine range, right? somewhere in there. I don't think they're a top five team. Golden State, I think they have enough good players the Raptors do and like salaries

that could actually be cobbled together to get something important back that you kind of have to talk about them when any of these big potential deals come up. Golden State, 13 and 12. They're just too old. They are too old.

And the Kaminga thing is now a catastrophe. I mean, it's just going to be worse. And they seem, everybody seems to think they could trade him at January 15th for something. Why am I trading for a comminga? Why don't want to pay him $22 million a year? Like the worries won't even play him and they need somebody like him

and he's not even playing anymore. I think this is the thing that would worry me the most about trading for him is not like he can't be a superstar or he can't be a team player or whatever. It's he goes to these stretches where he'll start the season and play four games

doing what you want him to do as a team and then he'll just be off in the wilderness for 20 games. He just does not have it in him in terms of the patience and the focus and the commitment to play consistently winning basketball. And that's why you see even

like Steph has been out, Draymond's been out, Jimmy Butler's been in and out. They've been resting a bunch of guys. This should be Jonathan Cumminga time and instead it is Pat Spencer time. I think that's just like a damning, it's a damning situation all around

in terms of where he, I would say where he finds himself, but it's really where he put himself. Do you feel like Draymond's at the same level he's been at in the past? I do not. I don't either.

Still really good. I wonder if that's a bigger issue for them. And I think it has more to do with the league just got so much bigger that just philosophically that 2017 type lineup that the Warriors could throw or maybe earlier that 2015.

I don't know if that's doable anymore with the centers we have in the league. It's like, oh good, we're playing Zach Eden tonight, you know, oh, here's Shangoon. Like, I just don't think it's sustainable in the same way. So you almost need him as a four playing with the center. But if that center can't shoot either, now I have two non-shooters in a league where everybody loves space.

And I just, I wonder if that's almost a bigger issue for them than Kaminga. Kaminga, whatever, it's 22 million the air. If he plays, he doesn't play. But figuring, unlocking that Draymond part, because he does so many good things from a team defense standpoint, but the rebounding, combined with the lack of size, I think it's a real issue for them. The ship has sailed, but they won in 22. They did.

That's, that's, that's the thing. They won an unbelievable title. They did it. They answered everything. Atlanta number 13, we've talked about them. And then Miami at number 12, two Miami things. They're 14 and 10. Really, really fun league pass this year team, which is shocking.

the Norm Powell thing he was so huge for the Quippers last year and then the playoffs was up and down and then the feedback from the quipper side was like we didn't want to pay him an extension he would have been a problem all year yeah and he's going

what goes to Miami and immediately becomes the same 25 point of game of score he was in the first half of the Quipper season you can run crunch time offense through him he's great against good teams like the better the team is

the better he is and that Collins and Beal combo for Powell like almost single-handly explains the quipper season like they they basically just gave away 10 points a game Kauai insurance for when Kauai never plays

an extra crunch time guy a guy who sucks the quippers fan you can literally explain the entire Klipper's demise with that trade why and it's honestly it's not just the Clippers too I feel like the Blazers had their of this. The Raptors had their version of this with Norm Powell. This is just like so many teams

that have talked themselves out of, oh, this guy just scores all the time every time he touches the ball. Right. Granted. We don't trust this. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, sometimes doesn't always pass a lot. At times earlier in his career, especially, was more of a liability defensively, but I think has really worked on that part of his game has just become a dead eye shooter, a go-to score. And this is where, as I'm getting into like, you know, we're almost in all-star season, Bill, as far as like penciling in our teams, it looks like there's probably only going to be room for one member of the Miami Heat.

It has to be, does it have to be? For me, it does, yeah. It has to be. I think Bam is a better player than Norm Powell. And ultimately, the Heat are still a defense first team that is winning mostly on that side of the ball. But Powell is also, like, on the, riding the wave of everything in terms of their reinvented offense.

And it's like, it's so symbolic of why they feel different this year. that I'm with you. I think he's going to get a lot of votes, but I'm not just like ready to rule out BAM's importance and all this for you. Well, it's also, what are we at, the 25 game mark? We still have, when do we have to vote?

We have like 12 more. Yeah, at least I would hope. My other question, because, you know, if they could trade the Rozier contract, it puts them in play for a bunch of players, whether Kauai Leonard, who we mentioned earlier,

Janice, at the high end. Jaron Jackson, I mentioned, name a player they're in play for it. But if you can take the $26 million

expiring where's your contract, put it with one or two other assets. Now you can mix and match anybody. I could try to get Trey Murphy.

We'll take Jordan Poole's contract with Trey Murphy. We'll throw these contracts back and all our picks. Like, whatever it is, you can get whoever you want. So, and I did a deep dive

on this. Unclear of Charlotte knew about the investigation when they traded him. They've never said publicly. My guess is they knew. These teams always know. So they trade him to Miami.

Odds are they knew he was being investigated for a gambling scandal. That's pretty fucked up. Yes. That's like when OKC traded Jeff Green to the Celtics and knew he was hurt. Teams will do this from time time. This is pretty fucked up. Well, this is why you're getting the chatter about like, is there going to be some kind of recompense to the heat as a result?

Would they be getting some of like a pick back or some of the protection? back right that's that was going to be my second thing it doesn't seem like miami can get the pick back but it seems like they should and i don't want to defend the heat because i hate the heat but i think it's unfair they it's their 27 first round pick and it's crazy that they're not going to have that pick because they traded for roger who was under a gambling investigation the other team didn't tell them they should get the pick back and if they got the pick back that unlocks the rest of their first round picks. 26, 27, 28, 29.

They can do, at that point, you can really go after whoever. But the other piece is, they don't know if they can trade him yet until they actually put him in a trade and the other team agrees. And then the league decides whether they could put him in a trade or not, but the league won't tell them

until the trade is, it's like, why are you penalizing these guys for trading for a guy under false pretenses? I've never seen the league fuck over a team like this, like this decade. I think it's really weird. I mean, just a very cool situation all around

from the gambling scandal to now all of like the web implications for all of these other teams. It's ridiculous. It almost feels like they're punishing Erison a little bit. And I don't really understand that part either. I don't understand it.

I mean, the weirdest thing that ever happened in the league was when the great Reggie Lewis died with the Celtics. And David Stern made them carry his cap figure for the next three years of the contract. I did not realize that happened. Yeah. They carried it 94 or 95 and 96

when you have like these other things where it's like an injury exception. They just made them care. And that was everybody in Boston felt like that was just a fuck you to the Celtics. This feels like a fuck you to the heat and I don't really fully understand it. Yeah.

How are there so many ways to get cap relief, all kinds of relief in terms of your team building flexibility? Like, there's a lot of mechanisms teams have to work with right now. And yet there is no answer for the fact that we're staring down a massive gambling scandal in a league where gambling is only getting more prevalent. And, like, this is not the last time something like this is going to happen. And so honestly, the league should take this opportunity to iron out what the protocols are because this stuff isn't going away.

And what is the conversation when like, so Pat Riley calls silver or Harrison calls silver? Let's say Harrison calls sober. He's like, yo, my guys told me we don't know if we can trade this Rozier thing or not. I just want to check with you. This seems crazy. So we don't know if we can trade him

until we complete the trade and then you guys tell us if we can include him. And Sover's like, yeah. Yeah. Just a lot of no comment from the league office. A lot of shrugging.

Can you give us a hint? Like, would you approve the trade? I can't. It's just an insane situation All right Top 11 The Wild Cards Orlando

14 and 10 Every time you feel like Good things are starting to happen for them Something bad happens Although at least Franz didn't blow his knee out Yes That in itself is a good thing Zach floated this out

On his pot on Thursday And I was instantly jealous of it He told me on the phone he was going to do And I was like fuck That's a good one And it can't happen under the cap Until this summer But I just thought as a thought experience

It's the Janus for Palo straight up who says no is probably the best who says no in the league right now. If it was available, would Orlando say fuck it and just do it? And it's about as big of an age disparity as we've had for a major trade. Like it's the Mitch Richmond and Chris Weber trade kind of on acid. I think I would do it if I was Orlando. And I think I would do it if I was Milwaukee. Just fundamentally, let's forget the.

cap, all the other components, it can't happen anyway, but just fundamentally, I would do it if I was both teams. I think my general standing is, I would almost always trade for Janus. Like, there's really very few teams where I'm like, I don't want that guy or like, yeah, I think this is one of those cases where part of my brain is saying, no, like trading Janus leans into the same kind of spacing problems that Orlando already has in the other part of my brain, which thankfully is much latter is saying, this is fucking Janus Anteco. And if you can trade for him, you trade for him. And and you figure out all the other stuff later. And with Paolo, who's immensely talented,

is just surrounded by all kinds of questions as to what the best version of him will look like or can he get there or even just some like the speed and the pace at which he plays, there's still a lot kind of hanging up in the air. There's nothing hanging up in the air with Janus to a point where I would feel, I mean, of course you feel a little dicey

about trading anyone that talented that young, but if you're going to do it, you do it for someone like Janus. The nine-year age gap, but it's a really interesting one. Number 10, Cleveland, 14 and 11, net rating of 3. I have no fucking idea

how this team has 11 losses. It's inexplicable. They don't seem like the happiest team. No. Have we reached peak Mitchell or Garland? It's time to choose. Have we reached the peak?

What is the choice? Pick one, trade the other. No, but I'm saying like Donovan, is dragging this team around and Darius Garland even when he's out there right now does not look like the Darius Garland that we know and love

and so I fully expect that version to be back at some point but when and is he going to be the kind of guy you can rely on to be healthy versus Mitchell's been one of the best players in the league counter you could get a shitload for Mitchell

and then you bet on Garland I mean obviously the move is to trade Garland I don't know who the suitor is for it. And if I'm having meetings about should we trade for Garland, I'm looking at all the injuries his head. All were pretty fluky. Yep.

They weren't like all these wear and tear. Like there's something structurally wrong, like in Bede style injuries. They're more like, oh, that's a shame that that one happened. Yeah. It's more like breaking bones in your face. You know, like there's just stuff that happens to him that,

I agree, there's not like a chronic track record, but stuff does happen to him. I'd be trying to trade for him. if I was another team. This would be somebody that would be targeting who's like, there's blood in the water,

let's go get this. The thing is, it's really hard with Cleveland because it has to be almost a perfect trade. Or it has to be a team that can take him and give Cleveland less back,

which is why, look, I can't pretend to figure out what the Brooklyn Nets, how they approach stuff day to day week to week. But to me, this is like a perfect

Brooklyn Nets situation. where they're like 15 under the cap they could move a piece back save cleveland some money get them under the apron where now that maybe they can do a second trade send some picks that way and basically make a bet on garland that's like a guy going forward that's what i would do um i still feel like garland can be that guy i feel like he can be the face of a of a franchise i don't know if he can be one of the 15 best personally but i think he can be a guy that on a really good team could be your second or third best guy, because we've seen it. He's already done it.

I like him much better on other teams, frankly, at this point. I think he might just need a fresh start. He might need, honestly, like, alluding to this kind of guard and guard conversation, maybe more of the keys, maybe more opportunity to kind of find his footing with all of that usage. That might be a thing for him. But as it stands, like, I'm almost surprised that you lumped in the calves as a wild card because there's not a lot of wild happening with this team.

Like, they feel inert. They have too much talent. We can't rule. We've just seen it happen too many times where a team was slogging along for 25 games and then the light bulb went off. And they have been massively injured. Like they've been missing multiple guys

in basically every game. So it's like that is a qualifier, but at the same time. And, you know, there's guys that I feel like, like DeAndre Hunter, I'm not sure this is the right team for him. Yeah. There's more subtle moves they can make.

It's funny. You meant what you said about Garland. I am in the stealth, I feel that way, about Austin Reeves as well, Camp. I love Austin Reeves when LeBron's not playing. But when all three of them are playing, all of a sudden, Austin Reeves is not as impactful or whatever because he's on the same team with Luke Adonjantz and LeBron James. Yeah, a game the other night, we had 11 points,

and this is a guy who was averaging 29, but he's just the third option. Is there where Reeves and a ton of people? picks and other stuff for Janus. Anything, if Janus was like, I want to go to the Lakers. That's where I've decided I want to go. You told me to pick my team. I've picked my team and it's the Lakers.

Is there enough with Reeves as a headliner with all their picks that gets your attention or is that a hang-up? Can you get there salary-wise? You would have to really patch together all their expirings to get there. Vanderbilt, Klebe, or. I mean, Gabe Vincent. you'd have to really throw them all together. How insane is it that both of these conversations are happening

where you are saying LeBron James, maybe the greatest player of all time, is getting in the way of Austin Reeves being Austin Reeves, which I both agree with and not. I think he's had a couple more games lately where it's like... It's a usage rate thing, though, Rob. Completely. Like that's an in-art...

Because one of the highest usage-rated guys in the decade, and you have LeBron James, he should have the ball. Yep. So now Reeves is kind of over here. but part of his job is to put up 30 a game when LeBron is out like it's part of the modulation

of what makes him valuable but the other part of this is we are earnestly floating Austin Reeves as the primary return in a Yonis trade and I'm like not walking out of the room right now he's averaging 29 a game

it's insane he's been awesome it's a relatively small sample size it's like 104 minutes but when LeBron Luca and Reeves all play together this year they're minus 8.9

not ideal kind of backed up what I'm watching because it is a little clumsy you have three guys who are you you know Reeves ideally I love when he has the ball I love when he's like the main creator and it's just not going to happen

with those other two guys anyway uh okay so I'm more bullish on Cleveland maybe turning this around than you it sounds like I would love to see it I just don't think we've seen like any kind of spark that's going to lead to that yet maybe it'll still happen though

what actor has Evan Mowley where you're like I know he's going to win the Oscar but now it's like oh shit he's 45 years old and that happened he's consistently still really good though you know

it's just like is he really good in a leading capacity is he going to be more of a character type where it's like oh and train dreams he was great

might get nominated is he is he a Val Kilmer like does he have that charisma I mean look defense has charisma in its own way

you know true but I agree with you like he's in a he's in a weird spot I think we would all love to see it just just nudge him all all right

number nine the sleeper San Antonio let's go 16 and 7 and they haven't had Wemby for three weeks net rating 3.8

this Dylan Harper thing wow speak on it what are you seeing i was thinking about all-time situations where somebody had this crazy luxury of somebody who is clearly going to be awesome like maybe even like hall of fame awesome and they don't really need him in the early part of their career and anything he does is like a bonus and it was like the southex were in the situation with the macaille where he would like there were games he didn't even play crunch time for the first couple years it's like one of the 50

best players of all time. Rodman on the Pistons was like this, but you have this crazy, talented monster asset. Yeah. And it's like, oh, you're going to do something awesome. That'll be great. He can do so many

things offensively already. And he looks like he's 25. Some of the moves, like you can't even remember when you're watching what hand he shoots with. Yeah. He's so comfortable bouncing off people and getting to the rim. And I'm just absolutely in love with him as a player

I fucking love Dylan Dylan Harper what a pick what a what a fucking miracle for them He just gets into the lane About as easily as anybody in the league right now And it's not it's not all brute force It's not all pure speed you're right Like he is just kind of bouncing between people

The footwork is really great Just like a really clever player And he's gonna have to figure out Some of like the big picture stuff On running a team Like that's just a natural part of the evolution But for him to be in this like low stakes role as you're saying, where he can just come in and be himself,

it's hard not to be blown away by that on a nightly basis. Really competitive. It's funny watching him. It's like in football, you see all these running backs. And then there's like three running backs every year that are just different than all the other guys. It's like Jamir Gibbs right now where you're like, that guy's just different. Like if he's in space, he's breaking it. If you think he's going to get tackled behind the line, he got out of it.

They just moved differently and cut differently, which is what it's like watching. him. Like he cuts and moves like a running back. It doesn't even really seem like a basketball player to me sometimes. But that guy is just, to get that dude at number two is after getting Wembe is one of the bigger combo miracles we've seen. So for me, it's like, I'm doing everything I can if I can get Trey Murphy if I'm done. I'm doing everything possible. Harper's untouchable. Castle is untouchable. Wemby's obviously untouchable. Fox is untouchable. I'm not trading Luke Cornett either. You can have everyone else I have and we can talk picks and all that stuff. But if I can

keep that nucleus but add Tray Murphy to it, I can make a real run at OKC, not this year, but maybe a year or two years from now. That would be my goal. It would have to be a picks based conversation, I think. Because I also love Devin Vesel for this team and he's been awesome lately in particular during this like offensive swoon where they've just been blowing teams out, like really just outscoring teams frankly. He's been really important to that

formula. But you're right. But couldn't he be the centerpiece of a, do you like Murphy more as an asset for this team than Bissell? Because I would rather have Murphy. I would rather have both is what I'm saying. If there's a way to engineer it where it's a more picks oriented return for New Orleans, and like if that's enough to dangle

in front of them, the problem, as you'd mentioned earlier in some of the trade conversations with the Spurs, are there picks going to be valuable? Is San Antonio's own draft assets actually that enticing to teams anymore? I would think you would have to hesitate if you're a team like the Pelicans. They have an Atlanta pick

a year from now. They have a Dallas pick a couple years from now. Yeah, swap, I think. Yeah, swap. They have a Celtics pick a couple years from now, but you're right. They don't have that like killer pick. Which is why I think they would have to put somebody good in it. But, um, all right.

One more quick break and then we got to talk about the Celtics. All right, we're down to the top eight. And somehow we have not mentioned the Boston Celtics yet, who I have in their own category called the one comeback away contender. And that comeback is Jason Tatum. The Celtics are 15 and 9 with a plus

7.2 net rating. They are second and offensive rating. They are first and threes made in 30th in pace and 30th in free throw attempts. Neemias Kada is plus 16.7.

So good. Jordan Walsh looks like he might be a first team ball defense guy the way this is going. He got DMPs, the first month of season. Yeah. I have my take on what's going on here, but I want to hear yours first.

My take. I've been struggling for the unifying theory of the Boston Celtics. What is happening here? Because this isn't even pandering at this point. This isn't even like you playing the Celtics too closely to your heart. They are legitimately one of the best teams

in the league right now for reasons that are often like a little elusive. What I've come down on is this. Like I think what they do, And most of their success, like a lot of their success is driven by how successful they've been offensively right now, as you mentioned. They win the possession battle almost every night, right? The combination of a lot of offensive rebounding and not turning the ball over. They have all these extra possessions.

And then they just like stretch that margin by taking as many threes as they do. And so they take what should be like an incremental advantage and blow it out. And if you have... 16 a game, Rob. Like, if you have the... They're making 16 threes a game. It's bad. It's not like they have the greatest shooters in the world.

They have good shooters, but what they have is a commitment to taking them and a commitment to generating them, as has been kind of the Missoula style for a long time running now. But that combination of like if you have elite possession gaining talent and enough shooters to at least make this kind of engine work, I think that can clearly take you to some interesting places. I agree with everything you said. It's basically a system. So if you're thinking like how did they stumble into the perfect nobody believes in

us over-achieving NBA blueprint that we've seen from time and time, right? We saw with the 2016 Celtics, we saw it with the O3 Pistons, we saw out with the 2011 Grizzlies. Fundamentally, you still need a really good player leading it. This isn't happening unless you have one really good player, and they have one of the best 12 to 15 guys in the league in Jalen having his best season ever. They have an absolute lunatic as a coach, one of the most over-competitive guys in the league who's just a full-fledged, absolute lunatic who all he wants this team to do is win,

so they're never going to tank. And he has an idea of how they should play. But the biggest thing to me, as I watch them game to game, if you go through their top 11, every single guy has something to prove. Every single guy has some sort of hunger for something. So it's like Jalen Brown, Tatum's not here.

I've always thought I could carry a team like this. So he's in. Derek White. I've always thought I could do a little more offensively. Here we go. Same for Pritchard. Simons, contract here. Ceda, I've never gotten a chance.

Hauser, finally getting more minutes. You go on down line. Jordan Walsh. I would fucking kill somebody to play 25 minutes a game. Hugo, I'm 19. I'm a rookie. Josh Minot. Thank God I'm finally playing basketball.

There isn't a single guy in this team who's not like, I'm so happy to be part of this, and I will fucking kill myself for us to win games. and you can feel it game to game. And I think that's made the difference because they're going toe to toe against everybody. The only team, like, there's a Houston Rockets type team

that they're just going to be pretty helpless against. Like teams with real size and rebounding, it's just they just don't have enough. But they figured out how to play these wings that just all of them are maniac. Like Hugo's a maniac. They put him against Towns last week and Towns was like,

you could see towns like where did this guy come from? Did you let him out of a cage? What happened here? They just, they have a bunch of maniacs, Rob. Yeah, I think, look,

the top end of the rotation where I talked about Jalen Brown, him locking down that spot, as you mentioned, hugely important. The middle part of the rotation, I think we all more or less bought in on, right?

Like the Derek whites, the Peyton Pritchards, like those are not the guys you worry about. To me, a lot of this team success is the trifecta of Jordan Walsh, Josh, might not, Hugo Gonzalez.

It's not, like, normally when you take three flyers like that, maybe one guy hits, but they've all been good in various ways at different points in the season. And sometimes overlapping all at the same time, and they're all just enormously active. I mean, Gonzalez is a case in point where

I'm trying to get used to his game at the beginning of the season and trying to decide is this just a guy who runs around a lot or is he actually accomplishing things. But the level of activity is just warping plays. It's, starting to get in people's heads. It's starting to actually, like, speed things up for players on the floor.

And I think you have that intensity from Walsh. You have Minot, who's, like, length can be incredibly disruptive. And so all of a sudden, you have this, like, roulette wheel of energy players who all are slightly different. And I think that, honestly, like, really helps hold this rotation together in a lot of ways. I think it's a little disorienting for teams, especially if you're not seeing a playoff series. And it's just on the schedule. And you played this team, this team. Now you're playing this.

It reminded me, you might have a. seen the Texans' Chiefs game on Sunday night. I somehow missed that one. Yeah, I figured you missed it. But the Texans have the best defense in the league, and they were just hitting the shit out of the Chiefs. And then the fourth quarter, the Chiefs had a couple big drops.

And the reason they had the drops was because, you know, the guys have eyes in the back of their heads because they're getting absolutely nailed the whole game. And after a while, you get a little jittery. You can feel it happening a little with the Celts in some of these games, where it's like, we took Jordan Walsh out, that guy who's been flying around like a maniac, Now here's Hugo, and he comes in, and he's a maniac for 10 minutes, and then my nots.

So there's something about it, and Missoula is like, go, go, go. But they've been really good for four weeks here. How is it possible? As you're describing the Texans defense, how is it possible that the Rockets and the Texans are just the same team right now? Like, how is that a thing that's feasible? Yeah, if the Texans could offensive rebound, they actually would. Yeah, so adding Tatum to this, and it's the perfect way to add him, where it's like we'll give you Shireman's minutes, right?

We'll ease you in with like 20 minutes a game. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure he'll be an upgrade. Although I do, I think Shireman's been okay too. Anyway, this is. I need to say, just as a matter of like discretion and responsibility, Jason Tatum should not play this season. Like, just this team is really?

This team is good. But also. But if he's ready to play, why wouldn't he play? Like, so here's the case like Drew Smith, Drew Smith got hurt on December 23rd, same exact injury. sure and was playing in time mid-October for the heat it was a 10-month injury for them maybe maybe it was a 9-and-a-half-month injury yeah and tatam even had the surgery faster than he did and you know has been a maniac working out i i think it might be a 10-month injury now if you're

ready which so 10 months for tatum would be all-star break it just and i don't know if you're him why wouldn't you play he i'm sure wants to play like i'm not saying jason tatum isn't working for it or won't be like physically ready it like meeting the bare minimum of what is required to return. I'm just thinking about Jason Tatum and what he does on the floor. And it's the explosiveness, even of just like his creating separation

off the dribble, it's his ability to switch and handle bigger players defensively and the flexibility that he provides you and all of that workload that it puts on your lower body. He's so important to the team. And this is all great

as a one season, amazing story, Jalen Brown, leap, plots. Like, this is great. But if he re-injures something in the process of coming back too soon, that is just about the worst possible case for

this Celtic season. So maybe I'm airing on the side of caution, but like, I think this team is good enough to just kind of let it ride and have fun with the lower stakes of not having Jason Tatum involved. I think the luxury they have is they can wait until they feel like he's actually

legitimately 100% and then wait another month. Yeah. But I still think he should come back because Because otherwise, he's not playing a November. 19 months off doing anything, I don't think is great. And I would rather see him just play. He's going to play basketball anyway. He's going to want to test his leg.

He's going to want to go. You might as well do it for 20 minutes a game. It's an interesting conundrum. But it's certainly like, they went, I went there the first, I watched that Washington game and I was like, they should tank. I can't believe some of the guys that are playing big minutes. Like, what are we doing? And now it's like, whoa, what happens in February?

especially when you look at the east, you don't like anybody. The one move away contenders, number seven, the Lakers, 17 and 6. Yeah. What should their record be, just in your opinion? What, do they feel like a 17 and 6 team to you? I mean, it's, they feel like a 15 and 8 type of team, 14 and 9? What would, in your head, do they feel that good? They don't quite feel this good.

And like, I think that speaks to their season being a little surprising, right? It's, it's really popping off. It's Luca looking, I mean, just even better than you could have expected. and some of their role guys like really hanging together despite the fact that this is not a roster that has a lot of depth to it. At the same time,

like they've earned it. Like they've pulled off these wins and they clearly have something that is like a little bit greater than the sum of its parts happening there. Maybe that's a credit to Luca or JJ or Austin or whoever you want to attribute it to, but they don't quite feel 17 and 6,

but who might argue with what they've done? The thing I would worry about if I was done is just the eight and turn into to a pumpkin. He's now hit the point where the Laker fans seem like they actually trust him a little bit

and that's usually where it's got the most dangerous place to be in the world. So just be careful. Minnesota 15 and 9. Before we do Minnesota, I want to say one

thing about Luca really quick. Yeah. I think we're broadly like all, you know, reveling in his season. He's going to be an MVP candidate if he's eligible,

all that stuff. But like when he is right like this, every drive he makes ends in points. And it's like, it is so striking. to see just like the methodical nature of it again at this like at this volume where I just

think he's looked better this year than ever before somehow despite the fact that he's already coming from a final standard an MVP candidate standard it's like if the defense collapses he's obviously way too good at finding the lob finding the shooters if you get too physical he is the best player in the world right now at drawing fouls and this was the part that blew me away if you don't foul him bill he is shooting 94% around the basket 9. I saw that. Yeah, around zero to three feet, right? Zero to three feet. So, like, when all of those three things are true,

I mean, that's how you become 17 and 6, despite having a roster that may not suggest it. It's how you become a somewhat improbable Western Conference contender, even in a really stacked group. Yeah, I mean, the real reason you're 17 and 6 is your best two guys were averaging 63 points a game. Yep, that'll do it. I don't even think that was possible.

Yeah, there's, I, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel like this team's pretty close to being the other Western Finals team if something weird happened with Denver just because of how good Luke has been. And it seems like LeBron, who I'm not sure wanted to be there at the beginning of the year

because he didn't want to be on somebody else's team, but now it's starting to see, oh, actually at this stage of my career, I'm probably the best possible, this is the best possible use of me. Everybody wins. Like maybe I can figure this out. and use my chess master brain.

So there's something here, but I still feel like they're a guy short. I don't know what the trade is. They have some expirings. They have some picks. So we'll see. Minnesota number six, 15 and 9. It's just not a team. It's a team that with the point guards they have and the amount of responsibility they have

on Edwards' shoulders, I don't think is sustainable for three playoff rounds, much less four. I agree with you. I mean, they're also just... You need a point guard. Yeah, they need a point guard. They need that stability just a little more.

it's not that Ant hasn't done well enough or like frankly Dante DiVincenzo has been good he's just not their point guard and so if you lose multiple eight points in the last minute leads odds are you need a ball handling thing and you know we can see this coming with Conley. They are the best team in the league that like

regularly just loses their entire mind and so like what you want to do with that is up to you but they can they can fight with the best of them and they can lose games that they have no business losing. And the league is way better of pressing now too so you can really like get the ball back against them if you want to.

It's a great call. Get the ball. Detroit at number five, we talked about them, 19 and 5. The only thing I wrote down here was Ivy, question mark. Yeah. Well, I'm still writing out that minutes limit right now, it seems like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but long term, I think this is their ceiling, whether it's seven fours, ten fours,

14 fours. Can he be awesome for them? Can he be a trade piece to turn into something bigger? Whatever, he's the swing something for them. because I like the roster, but I want to see what happens with him. New York number four, 16 and 7, plus 8.2 net rating.

Yeah. Here's my question. Is there any scenario where if the Knicks were in the finals, they could beat one of the three teams in the West, Houston, Denver, OKC? Are they just at a class below those teams? I don't see it.

I don't see you there. I mean, Oklahoma City is, frankly, just way too good for any way. one in the East. And I think the particular problems that Denver's size presents and Houston size presents, you're just like begging for a Carl Anthony Town's

three fouls and eight minutes kind of game. You know, it's like, it's just putting a lot on him to have to handle. And then it's like, okay, now Mitchell Robinson, like you're put to the front line. O.G. and I know, but you're having to guard Nicole Yokic all of a sudden. Like, it's just a lot to put on those guys in a way that I know their defense has been better lately.

It's also been better because they've had a little bit of a cupcake schedule. And that's great in terms of getting everything right but then you have to go do it against some of the best teams in the Western Conference and I don't I don't see that in them just yet we agree now if I switch towns for AD

in AD is healthy yeah do you feel differently does Anthony Davis and I say this with the greatest respect Anthony Davis is an amazing player do literally anything against Nicola Yokich like that is a matchup he can't win and so I think it helps against Houston for sure maybe it even helps somewhat against

OKC, I think Denver, weirdly, that doesn't really change anything at all for them. I think I agree. So sadly, the Knicks making the finals will be the win this year. And then they need some sort of luck. The contenders, number three, Houston, 15 and 6 plus 10.8. Secondly, number two, Denver, 17 and 6 plus 8.6. Doing it without really important guys for the last couple weeks. It's actually kind of crazy.

They have not had Gordon. They have lost Christian Brown pretty early. And during that time, they've been, I think, the second best offense in the entire league with both of those guys out. Like, the depth is just totally different this year. So I think Denver is the only team that should chase OKC.

Like, if they had a chance to turn Cam Johnson and multiple picks under Trey Murphy, I would. So you don't think Houston's in that group? That was my question. Yeah. If you're Houston, do you chase OKC? the way I have is the prohibitive fame. Normally I have the favorite as number one.

I have the prohibitive favorite as number one. OKC 23 and 1 with a net rating of almost 16. Yeah. Should anyone other than Denver chase O'KC this year? Do you just, is it a 2017 warrior situation where you're like, you know what? We'll see you guys next year. Good luck. Good luck winning the title.

Is it even worth it? I think Houston's already chasing. Like, I mean, trading for Kevin Durant means you are chasing this right now and the timer is going off. there's other, there's an extra move that, I mean, they could go all in on the honest move. They could go, there's other things they could do and they could trade assets to try to improve this team. I'm just not sure if that changes their destiny.

I also think as constructed, like I could see them beating Denver. I don't think that's outside the realm of possibility. And then I agree with you. Yes, the funder are going to be a tough matchup for anybody, but like I don't, like, at least play it out, be as physical as they are. Like, they're just such an imposing team.

that maybe they really could take if you're meeting the thunder late in the playoffs and they've already been worn down by having to play high level physical competition and then you have to meet the rockets and the conference finals

maybe that's enough like maybe that's enough to kind of take the wind out of their sales a little bit yeah you beat you're not going to beat OKC but if you beat OKC you're getting weird

you're getting weird because you have Yokic who's the weirdest we're to start to go against in a playoff series of this, probably this century or your Houston and you're just like, we just have incredible amounts of size.

It's so fun. We're just going to try to overpower you, and you can have all your shade points you want and press us and we'll turn the ball over 20 times, but we're going to have 30 offensive rebounds today. My favorite bit of Rockets We're just like, yes, they are a giant bruising team, and then they have Reed Shepard and Aaron Holiday running around,

and I don't think I've seen the miss a three in a month. It's like, it's very like the gym bro with the little Pomeranian running around kind of vibe in Houston. And I really enjoyed the physical. comedy, I got to say. I'm so happy Reed Shepard's good. We just need more weird, old school point guards like that

who feel like they came out of what was that show, Willow Bay and Ahmaud host and Inside Stuff? He seems like he's come out of an Inside Stuff reel from 1992. It's like, now watch Reed Shepard against the Charlotte Hornets. OKC, I asked this to Sal on Sunday

because it's still like around 5 to 1. I just think OKC's breaking the 73 win record and I think they're actually going to care about it. Do you see a scenario where they don't because it's still like plus 500 and that, which means like it's a pretty big long shot by gambling odds, but I don't see how they lose nine times. Do you? They would have to. Or I guess they would have to lose 10 times. Yeah, it would have to be kind of an inexplicable lull like where something is just like a little off in late January and all of a sudden they drop three of five games to teams that they

wouldn't ordinarily do. But I'm with you. It's It's hard to imagine this team doing that. We've seen them do it short-handed. We've seen them do it on off-shooting nights. We've seen them do it basically with every combination of variables against every level of competition already. And they just beat everybody. In order to get to that point,

they would have to have one of those unusual stretches. The parlor game that we've been playing on group chat is when will the Thunder lose their first game to an Eastern Conference team? And could they go the entire season blowing out every Eastern Conference opponent? And I think it's pretty possible they don't lose to any East team until February at this point.

I mean, if that, like, it's craziness. They remind me of when my daughter was playing club soccer and we'd have these tournaments. You know, you'd go away for the weekend and you'd look at the brackets and there was one team

that was just winning like 9-0, 8-0, 11-1, and you were like, probably not beating that team. This is what they're, they're like the freaking club soccer juggernaut just destroying everybody. and even when it feels like the game's late,

you know, close and get a bowl late, then Shay just makes four shots in a row and okay, so he wins. That's crunch time player in the league right now. I don't really know what you do. They have answers for everybody. I do think Denver should chase them, though. And they probably have 15 games here with Cam Johnson

to figure out if they can trust him in a playoff series or not. I mean, he looks on course at this point. I think he's really straightened himself out. Sure. I'd like to see another, how many games is 15 months a month? Oh, how many games in a month? Yeah. Probably reassessing around January 15th.

Like, if this guy's in the corner in a game seven and OKC with a minute left, is he making it? I'm in that mode because the Bruce Brown thing's been great. It's just clear this is the team. This is for whatever reason, his soulmate team. I like the Hardaway, randomness. Yonis, we all knew that was going to work, but they're just deeper and better, and when they get everybody

back, they're going to be a real problem. Definitely. The Cam Johnson piece is the one, because that's the shot that's going to be open for them, and it's been open the whole season. Yes. Teams are like, and by the way, I love the way Murray's playing. Oh, he's been incredible. Murray's like a borderline in the combo

for 13 NBA range if you're making teams. Like, he's on the French. What's your favorite show of the year? the pit okay that's your gold medalist who's your silver medalist I think probably

severance silver medalist and I have to think about it but there's something about the like simplicity of the model of the pit where like I know exactly what I'm walking into

and yet I'm still a mess watching two people say goodbye to their elderly father it's like I know what's being done to me here and yet I am powerless

to resist it taft what was that show called that we just potted for an hour and a half straight the classic taft biopic whist through Netflix midseason we whiffed on that one it's all right task

task has got to be top five is that your number one I really like Beast of Me Beast of Me was really good I really enjoyed a lot I enjoyed Task I did not watch the pit I've been saving it I do not like severance.

I'm sorry. I think some people have zagged on it. I'm one of them. Anything else that was out there? Those are the big ones, right? Studio. Studio is fine. Your friends and neighbors was super fun from an Apple standpoint.

That was a show that existed. That's for sure. It was a show that existed that we got some mileage out of. But I think it's been an okay TV year. It's been fun. The Stranger Things was awesome for a lot of people. I don't watch that show. Not for me.

My kids were out of their minds about it. Can't wait for the last four. But, yeah, it's been solid. Yeah. All right. Rob Mahoney. It can be on the rewatchables, finally. I know.

A lot of rumors about this. Extremely excited about that. I won't say the movie, but yeah, doing a four-personer. You want to say the movie? I mean, I think we really should have had a top five cast for, you know, just for the sake of the symbolism. We're doing high fidelity.

We're recording it this week, and it's going to be Monday's rewatchable. So looking forward to that. I'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for popping on, Rob. Of course. Thanks, Bill. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rob and Gahow and Eduardo.

Don't forget about the rewatchables that went up yesterday. We did shampoo. Don't forget about the new Game Over podcast with Max and Rich. Don't forget about the new Wisket documentary that I was coming on Thursday on HBO and HBO Max. And I will be back on this feed with a nice big juicy pot for you on Thursday. See you then. I want to see them on a way you're sorry to say, I don't have a few years with him. Must be 21 plus in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino

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