The Bill Simmons Podcast - An NBA Roundtable With Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine of SiriusXM NBA Radio to discuss myriad NBA topics, including a down Embiid/76ers year, the 2025 All-Star rosters (2:34), potential Jimmy Butler destinations, playoff contenders (25:43), De'Aaron Fox's Spurs ambitions, the state of the Phoenix Suns (50:03), an NBA lightning round (1:20:13), and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, more NBA. That's right. You're not going to bully me away from talking NBA. I'm going to do it on this podcast next. This episode is brought to you by Verbo, private vacation rentals. With Verbo, you always get the whole house. So you and your fellow fans can cheer on your team in peace. What's worse than watching a game with somebody who's not rooting for the same

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almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Download the Uber Eats app today to order now. Alcohol in select markets, product availability may vary by region, see app for details. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Before Sunrise, a 90s classic. You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch all the clips and

videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We have our friends at Fandl who every Friday 30 on 30 is happening. We have a 30 on 30 profit boost token on Fridays where you can boost any 30 plus point score or 30 on 30 special bet on this Friday's slate on Fandl. You know why this is good for this week because we have the all-star snubs. We have people playing who didn't make the all-star team who then try to take it out on whoever their next game is. Like Philadelphia playing Denver, Tyrese Maxey, ideal candidate. Toronto versus Chicago, Zach Levine, he didn't make it.

He's probably mad about it. Just try to match the anger and the resentment of the snub with the game and you're good. Be sure to claim the PBT and place your 30 on 30 bet for Friday, just look for 30 on 30 in the FanDuel Sportsbook app. You know what else you can look for? We did that Trade Value Com podcast with Brasillo on Tuesday where we hashed out the final list.

I got his help. I finally settled on a top 85. And then we ran it on theringer.com today and I wrote an intro for it. The fingers actually kind of worked. It was like 1200 words, but that's like 20,000 words for me. I mean, I can barely type. But anyway, I wrote an intro.

I had fun. And then we laid out the whole list. It's got stats, it's got the money, all that stuff. So very excited about that. You can go read me on thering all that stuff. So, very excited about that. You can go read me on theringer.com. Yeah, you can read me. Remember those days? Coming up, Justin Termini and Eddie Johnson,

who I call into their show all the time on Sirius, and they owed me one. So, they are coming on, and we're gonna talk basketball, and it's next, first our friends from ProJet. All right. We're taping this late Thursday afternoon. I go on their show all the time, all the time, and they owed me. So they're coming on. Eddie Johnson, Justin Thurman.

You can hear them on Sirius NBA every afternoon. And we're really here to talk about Eddie's finals pick which was Minnesota versus Philadelphia before the season. I looked it up that finals pick is three games under 500 Eddie. Like if it can't get over 500 do you just retire at the end of the year? Like what's your plan? Well my plan is I think Philadelphia is learning how to win without the best center in the NBA. I think they're learning to win without the best center in the NBA. One of the best small forwards in the NBA, he's been injured, Paul George.

And if they're learning to win without them too, and those two come back, and they're in the play-in, I think we might see a repeat of Miami of a couple of years ago. Yeah. Just in any comments on that one. Well, Bill, this is this is what I deal with every single day. And I say a lot of stupid things. And I still look like I'm rather intelligent because of things like this from Eddie. I mean, how many things did he get wrong there? Paul George, one of the best small forwards in the NBA.

Yeah, like seven years ago, Joel L of the best small forwards in the NBA, yeah, like seven years ago. Joel Enby, the best center in the NBA, yeah, maybe if you took out what? Carl Anthony Towns, Joker. If you took out Wim Benyama, if you took out Anthony Davis, maybe he's got a point. And Miami of a couple of years ago, great point, Enby. I think Cleveland and Boston and New York

are shaking in their boots. That's amazing. When Enby was basically the MVP two years ago and he got injured. So you're basically judging Embiid based on an injury and saying that those guys are better than him. I'll give you Jokic. I mean, those are the two top players, but anybody else you're putting above Embiid, you're basically using the excuse that he's injured and saying he's not good anymore so you can go kick rocks are you in the matrix where Joel Embiid plays basketball games because we're we're living here on planet earth when he's in street clothes every game well I've seen that well I think they're doing the right thing with them right now Bill I

think this set him out make let him get a hundred percent healthy I think he's been trying to come back and he hasn't been a hundred percent healthy I don't think he started season a hundred percent healthy and he's paid a price and I think what they're doing right now Is the right thing set him out and guess what if he can't play the rest of the year? I wouldn't play him and I've said that on our show And then that's when you have to suffer the consequences of having to wait another year But for me, I think he needs to get 100%. Like, some guys can get 90, he can't.

He's got to be 100. And I think that's what they're doing with him right now. Bill, when's the last time, I would say this to you, when's the last time, Bill, that a guy that was seven feet tall was having issues with his feet, was having issues with his knees, all of a sudden he ended up improving, right? And getting better as he aged. In his 30s. Exactly.

I can't think of one. And something Eddie and I agree on is, I think Embiid loves to play, right? And there's some stars that maybe don't love to play. We've had that debate with Jimmy Butler, who's like, I don't take the regular season seriously till after the All-Star game. He's always missing games. Like Eddie and I agree, he probably doesn't like playing the game that much. Enbeat, I think, likes playing,

but does Enbeat like putting in the work that is required to play, to stay in shape in the offseason? And I think that's on him, so you can't criticize him for being hurt all the time and having a bad body, but you can get on his case for not putting the work in, in the offseason, in order to condition himself appropriately. I agree with Justin, which won't be the last time in this podcast. Sorry, Eddie. I was double teamed a lot in high school and college, so it doesn't matter.

And that time's in the NBA, so I can handle it. I'm fine. I guarantee you, I won't throw the ball away like some guys. Unlike Devin Booker, you're not going to complain about being double teamed. I start to work the pot here. You mean not all-star, Devin Booker. Embiid, a lot of wear and tear, bad injury history of big men over seven feet who hit their 30s and have been in the automobile shop a lot, shall we say. So I think if I'm Philly, I'm just terrified.

One of the things, I put up a trade value list today where I ranked the best trade assets in the league. I had 85 this year, and I had had him be number 54 on the list. And a couple of people reached out to me and NBA circles and we're like, you could have put him 250 forth. Nobody is trading for him in that contract. I don't, I'm not positive. I feel like it's gotten to that point, but just, did you feel like, is he,

is he even tradable at this point? Or is it just like, we have no idea what to expect with this dude anymore. Yeah. I was talking about this the other day with Ryan McDonough, the former GM of the sons, and he called it the worst contract in the sport. So, you know, he's thinking along the lines of you that nobody would deal for the guy. And I was like talking about it on the show with, with Sam Mitchell, he was

filling in for Eddie here today. And we brought up like Jared Allen. I mean, you're in position to win a championship right now in Cleveland. You think Cleveland's doing anything with Joel Embiid if it was like for Jared Allen? No, they're gonna stay with Jared Allen, even though he's nowhere as talented as Joel Embiid.

So yeah, I mean, I think they're in a spot where who wants to be paying this guy $60 plus million in 2029 when he's already got bad knees four years prior to that. Yeah, I'm on that line Eddie, but you probably would bet on the talent. Well, I would look at it more like this. And I've said it, I said that these injured sit out and don't play, but if you all are telling me

that a team worked out Joel Embiid past his injury, and you all know that each team has his own ego. They always have, they think their trainers can get a guy right. So both of you all are telling me that if Joel Embiid went to a potential trade team and worked out for them and looked good in his workout, that they wouldn't trade for him.

Are you all crazy? Yeah, they would. For 60 million plus dollars? I mean, didn't the Lakers turn down Bill Walton in the 80s? I think his team's out there right now. His team's out there right now. If they worked him out and they saw that he was healthy, they trade for him in the heartbeat. So I, so now I went from, I agreed with everything you said, Justin.

I also agree with Eddie. There's always a sucker out there who's going to talk themselves into it. We see it over and over again. I never would have thought the Clippers were going to give Kawhi an extension after he just kept missing the playoffs. They're like, here, take this. Like, we see it over. I never thought Zion would be able to get any sort of a multi-year anything, and he did.

Yeah. Bill, you're right. All the Suns can make a trade under the second April. People didn't think that. Yeah. And things can happen. And you're right. There is always a soccer and Phoenix probably would be the soccer the way that they're going out. And I mean, that's a fair comment. There you go. There's the Phoenix. Phoenix is the sucker at the poker table that all the other poker players are

trying to keep at the table. No, no, stay two more hours. I go a step further. I'll tell you what, hey, no, I'm going a step further. No, no, stay two more hours. I'll go a step further. If the Boston Celtics worked him out and thought he was healthy, they trade form. In a heartbeat, we're cool. Do we not have a luxury tax anymore?

I think that something's going the other way. Hey, maybe they'll give up Jalen. They're not gonna give up Tatum. But they trade form. I hope that. If they worked him out and saw he was healthy, they trade for him. It'll heartbeat without a doubt. They would.

Yes, I think if I had to make my, they'd be crazy enough to trade for him. Unless I think Golden State would do it just cause I think Golden State right now. It's not hail Mary time for Golden State, but they're like, it's third and 13, third and 15, and I think they just need to do anything. Phoenix is definitely a Phoenix could turn Beale and Embiid. They would do that. No, we wouldn't do that. We wouldn't do that.

We would. What are you talking about? We wouldn't do that. That's right. We wouldn't take Beale for Embiid. That one I actually agree with. No, we wouldn't do it. For Bradley Beale?

We wouldn't do it. Is it, did something happen with Bradley Beale professionally that I'm missing? We wouldn't do it. Did something happen with Bradley Beal professionally that I'm missing? We wouldn't do it. I'm just kidding, man. I'm just kidding. All right, thank you. Speaking of the Phoenix Suns,

the All-Star rosters came out today and I had surprisingly very few quibbles. I would get to my one quibble. But I did notice that the great Devin Booker, who we're on a lot of texts with Eddie, where we have to hear about the the great Devin Booker, who were on a lot of texts with Eddie, where we have to hear about the virtues of Devin Booker and how great he is, did not make the All-Star team. Your defense, Eddie.

No, he didn't. And I think he should have, look, put it this way, I think Norman Powell should have made it from the Clippers. Even on my pregame show for the Suns the other day, I didn't pick Devin. And it wasn't that he wasn't worthy. It was a number of players that were out there that should have made it. Kyrie, obviously Norman Powell. You had guards out there that were worthy of being picked. And I felt record is just a nose. I always lean toward record. Yeah.

And I thought Kyrie should have been the one picked. I do. I think based on what he's done without Luca, I think that's all star level. Even though James Harden is playing in a selfish brand of basketball, and he's changed his game a lot, and shooting what? Low 40s from the field. Yeah. I just don't see how he made it over Norman Powell and over Devin Booker. I thought one of those two with Kyrie to me,

and obviously had Jalen Williams in that group because I thought people wouldn't pick him, should have made it. So, look, I'm not surprised that Devin didn't make it. He got off to a slow start this year. And the record is right there in the middle of the pack of the West. And so you're vulnerable when you're in that situation. Yeah, and I actually, Bill, agree with Eddie on Norm Powell. I thought he should have made it.

And, you know, listen, Eddie says a lot of crazy things that are absolutely ridiculous. Something I said at the beginning of the season that I owe an apology is to the Clippers because I killed them, as did a lot of other people. It's worked out perfectly. And Norm Powell, like at the beginning of the season said, you know, that it's a dish and by subtraction. Well, he's taking advantage of it. I think he should be an all star. And then on the Devin Booker front, like, you know, Eddie, I think broke it down fairly right there. He probably didn't deserve to be there, but it is kind of a major knock on his legacy, because this is a guy I feel like is talented enough where he should be there every single year.

There's really no excuse not to make All-Star teams. And now it's two of the last three years where he hasn't made it. And you look at a guy like Eddie and myself and you fight about Jason Tatum, say what you want. Not only does he make the all-star team every single year He also makes first team all NBA every year Then you have Devin Booker who should be maybe in the same category as him or slightly behind and he's missing out on stuff Like this. I mean, that's a bad look I think for Devin Devin Booker's resume, you know So I go both ways but first of all, I don't like the word snub with the all-star game when we have a lot of good players Right if you go back 20 years First of all, I don't like the word snub with the all-star game when we have a lot of good players, right?

If you go back 20 years, which I wrote about in the trade value intro today, like we didn't have a crap load of talent in like 2007. So if you got snubbed from the all-star game, you can feel it. Now we have so many good players. Like I, the most surprising one was Kyrie, more surprising than Booker. I didn't like the thought of having two sons all-stars when they're a 500 team. But I think Kyrie, what's done without Luka and the fact that he's just day to day night to night showing up carrying them. I thought he

should have made it. That was the biggest snub to me. I don't understand why we had all these centers. I have no idea why Shen Goon, if you're gonna have four centers, how does Shen Goon make it over to Subbonus? But then Eddie the other side of it is, I do like when they reward the guys on winning team. And it's like, yeah, I get it. Houston should have an All-Star. Yeah, and I've always said that.

I've always said that. So Shangoon makes it over Subbonus. I get it. But I don't understand the Kyrie part. And I would have Kyrie over Harden. Let me just say this about Kyrie real quick, Eddie. Don't forget who's voting for this stuff as well. How many times did Kyrie give coaches throughout the course of his career a hard time bail

on teams, get coaches fired? So I wouldn't be shocked if some coaches look at that and they go, Oh, well, Steve Nash gets fired because of the attitude issue. He gives Brad Stevens a really difficult time, just the different coaches that he's had run-ins with. I think that kind of factors into some of this stuff as well. Well, I think a lot of stuff goes into it. I do. I think teams competing with one another, all of that. I think it does. When you just give the coaches the vote, you know, attitude can come into play. So I'm not shocked by any of that. For me,

I think personally, you know, Devin is going to, I should focus them in the second half of the season. Uh, it's definitely a disappointment for him. I know he's not happy. Yeah. And so being not happy, you would like to think that he's going to just ramp himself up even more. Yeah.

There's long memories with the voting. I think that's a really good point about Kyrie. I've actually, like Kyrie was one of my least favorite basketball players. I really appreciated the way he's turned his career around the last couple years. You gotta hand it to him. I thought he acted like a pro last year.

I thought he showed up and that's all we ever wanted from him. You know what, really what it is, is now we're seeing what his teammates have been saying, but we didn't believe it. But he also wasn't showing. When you're not playing basketball, when you're acting erratically and giving weird press conferences. But his teammates still loved him. Like, you didn't hear his teammates get on him. Like so so I think what we're seeing now is What the full the full beauty of Kyrie right without the stuff that was going on? Yeah, because his teammates in the locker room, man, you talk to you listen or you watch I mean do pan guys fines

Like I mean it's just stuff like that that he does that a lot of stars don't do. I 80% agree, but even Kyrie last year was like, yeah, I acted like a jerk. There's some things I would take back. No, no, I agree. I totally agree, he did. I got on him. I mean, I got on him totally during the COVID situation and all of that.

But what I'm saying is the things that I've heard about him is he's a great teammate. And so now we're able to see it and not worry about the other stuff. Yeah, I wouldn't say it was all on the media. I mean, Jalen Brown gets along with him now. He didn't do that when he was in Boston. I thought one of the worst things that I saw from a teammate, and I think the worst thing on his resume,

is at game seven of the Eastern Conference Finals when he's hurt and he's not sitting there supporting his teammates when he was claiming that he was a leader. That wasn't a good teammate. So yeah, people are speaking of him highly now. I don't think it's been that way all the time because Jalen Brown didn't get along with him in Boston. Marcus Smart had his run ins with him in Boston as did other teams. Everybody has run ins. Come on. But I just think that was more team oriented attitude from Ky Reed and his teammates. And that's why Jaylen Brown is friends with him again.

Because he understands that now. It wasn't personal with the players, it was more directed at the team, I believe. What you just said about Kyrie and the teammates made me think of Westbrook and how Westbrook's teammates always loved them. Lakers accepted. I don't know, you know, I, although I do think a lot of the Lakers had them, but obviously it didn't work out well at all.

But the teammates always swore by Westbrook, even when there was stuff about, you know, him stat padding, him trying to grab all the free throw rebounds, all that stuff and all his teammates loved them. Yeah. Yeah. And it's good to see those two guys. Did you play like with anybody like that? Where she's like a beloved teammate guy? I mean, oh what you mean that say it again now like a star

That you played with who was like just everybody was all in and loved them Charles Charles was unbelievable You say what you want about Charles and I know Scottie has something out there about Charles in regards to Playing with him and all of that. But Scottie just can't, he can't, he can't admit and say that Charles wasn't a great dude, man. He's one of the best teammates I've ever had. And had him for a short period of time, but I've had some great teammates. I mean, Nate McMillan, and Gary Payton was a great teammate. Like, really? Oh, yeah, without a doubt. That was my guy, man. teammate. Like, really? Oh, yeah, without a doubt. That was my guy, man. Like, you know, it's just, you know, he was brash, you know, he would say, but I love that about him. But no, he was a great

teammate. And so there's a lot of guys out there that were, but they didn't ever got the, you know, the respect or the admiration because of things that maybe was outside the game with them. And, admiration because of things that maybe was outside the game with them. But Charles, man, that dude, man, I'm telling you, he's one of the best teammates I've ever had. So the worst teammate you've ever had is Justin. Oh, that's fine. I didn't have any bad teammates, worst teammates, but I'll tell you this, and he's not here anymore.

Oh, that's good. Thank God. Stop letting me crap a good guy. Don't let me crap on the guy. No, no. I crapped on him when he was alive. And I even crapped on him to his face because he was just a surly guy. But Quentin Daley.

Like, Quentin Daley was an unbelievable basketball player. He'd scored 15 points in eight minutes. But he was just always in a bad mood. He was moody. And it just bothered me. And he and I, we butted heads all the time in a bad mood. He was just moody. And it just bothered me. And he and I, we butted heads all the time in Seattle, man, when he was there. But he might've been the most surliest teammate

I've ever been around, but you wanted him in the game because he could score quickly. And that was fascinating about him. On an unrelated note, by the way, Bill, he just surpassed Larry Bird as my favorite player in NBA history. That he butted heads with Eddie. For the East Snubs, if you want to call them Snubs, they took four guards, three forwards,

really no center. And the one that jumped out to me was Maxey, but I also wouldn't have put them ahead of Garland, Dame, Hero, or Cade. So I was actually fine with the entire East team. The 12 guys they landed on, I thought were the 12 All-Stars. Do you have a counter? What about your guy, Jalen Brown? Now I know it's hard to find another front court guy, but I mean, here's why I think Jalen Brown's worthy is I actually do think like the year

before you got to take that stuff into account, like reward winning from it. And I do that, you know, people don't agree with it. I think it factors into the MVP race. How many times can you vote James Harden the MVP when he falls flat in the postseason every year, then he comes back, he dominates the regular season. But so I see like rewarding Jalen Brown for what he did last year. I don't think Jalen Brown's played in our All-Star level this year. Do you? I 100% do not.

And I got to say, I was a little surprised he made it, but I also understand why they made it because of the, the, whatever the winning attitude was with how the selections happened this year. I think they wanted two Celts. I think if you weren't watching game to game and just looking at the stats and. You know, the fact that he's been durable. I think, I think people like us that have watched a lot of the games, like, man, he hasn't played that well for a month.

Yeah. Eddie and I have done like the stats on this and it's something I don't have in front of me, but if you go through like basketball reference and look at all the numbers amongst the eight rotation guys, meaning the five starters, plus Horford, plus Hauser, plus Peyton Pritchard. He's like dead last and a lot of the field goal percentages Yeah, he's dead last and like the three-point percentages. He's dead last and all the advanced analytics. It's been a tough year You just hope that it flips one. Yeah, oh season, but but here's the thing Doesn't carry forward. Yes, it does new was MVP the conference finals the MVP of the fight

That's why I'm agreeing with you. He's making the All-Star team. I mean, as always, we've had some great players, didn't have great years, but he won a title last year, he's got those two accolades. It's gonna be hard to keep him off an All-Star team now. And well, the bigger thing is there was no guy that, oh my God, like I think if Jalen Johnson had been healthy the whole year and was healthy now,

I think he would have had a real chance. Yeah, I would agree with you there. I think he would have given him a run for his money. I'm happy Garland made it. I think Cleveland deserved three on that. And I truly do. I think it was even between he and Donovan Mitchell in my estimation, I'm happy for Mobley

because he could have been an odd man out. So I'm happy for him. I felt like Mobley had to make it. Yeah. Like, but to me, Mobley and Jaron Jackson were non-starters. They had to be in the team. Yeah. For the two-way stuff they're doing on really good teams.

And I feel good for Hero, because that's been a mess down there. And I, you know, he's on the trade market every year. Like, talk about like Miami and the way they treat their stars, and all these guys are pointed, like Paul Pierce is talk about like Miami and the way they treat their stars. And all these guys are pointed, like Paul Pierce is pointing to like the way they treat Jimmy Butler.

How about the way they treated Tyler Hero? Every single year he's on the trade market and they're just like putting them out. We'll trade you for Dane. We'll trade you for Donovan Mitchell. We'll trade you for Kevin Durant. And I never viewed him as an all star. And for him to make it, I think that's huge.

So I feel good for him. It helps Miami too. It really helps Miami that Tyler Hero made it because it kind of justifies that why they changed their offense and kind of went away from Jimmy as much as they used to. Especially at Crunchline, which I think was a thing with Jimmy. I like, if you watch Miami, basically everything last three minutes was revolving on Hero and I don't know if Jimmy was a giant fan of it but

And think about what that says about BAM I don't even think anybody's looking at BAM and saying that he's a snobby just hasn't been good this year at I don't know What that's the big I mean that goes to the you guys have talked about this a bunch but the post Olympics What happened to some of these guys? Why did it take so much out of them? BAM's the weirdest one because his offense just went sideways We had to take a break, and then I wanna talk about the Butler trades and the Fox trades,

and what we think is gonna happen. Sometimes in basketball, 30 points could be worth more than 30 points now. You can get a 30% profit boost from the Ringer with Fandel's 30 on 30 during Friday's NBA action. That's right, the Ringer. Team me up with America's number one sportsbook to give you a 30% profit boost

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Let's create the agent first future together. Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. So we talked about Jimmy Butler before, and it seems like Golden State. We're taping this. It's six o'clock Pacific time right now, Thursday. Seems like Golden State is going to be the team if there's a move, unless there's some surprise out of nowhere team. And I was looking at impossible trades and I think Wiggins has to be in it

because there's got to be some sort of fat salary and it's either Wiggins or Draymond. I just don't think they're going to trade Draymond. He just, I just think that's Steph, that's Steph's guy. That's just like, he's, he's over here. You can't touch him, but it would have to be Wiggins. I think it has to be Schroeder cause he's an expiring. And then there's a cominga piece to it where cominga, if Golden State

doesn't want to pay them and it could potentially be Wiggins, cominga and Schroeder and maybe like whatever else little small thing needs to come in. So there's two separate questions here. Is that a lot to give up for a guy who's been unhappy for a year? And then also if you're Miami, you might actually be pretty good down the stretch. If you turn a guy who's not really playing at all into Wiggins, who's looked really good the last couple of weeks and most of the season, Kaminga coming off the bench and then Schroeder at point guard.

It's a lot. I just think it's a lot. I think Jonathan Kaminga could be the next Butler. Who knows? I think he's just that good. I just think he's raw still. I think he, he sometimes gets out of character of what he is at this present moment. But would you pay him?

Cause he's, you're going to have to pay him next summer. So what's he worth? I think he's that good, man. I do. Wow. I think from the look, think about it. From how he's had to evolve as a player, like with Steph and Clay, you know, not,

you're not taking shots early in the shot clock. You're not trying to dribble it up on the break and be creative. You couldn't do all of that. You can get a little bit of it done now because Clay's not there. But just based on what I've seen from him this year, I just don't think they want to give him up. And if they do, I think it's going to pay a price because Butler's what? I mean, what? Three years, maybe four at the most left. And you got a young player in Kaminga. I think Miami, if they could do that deal, they jump all over that.

But what's the point of keeping Kaminga if you're not going to play him or if you're going to yank him around like Steve Kirstein, like if he does, yeah, or if you're not going to pay him. And then like the flip side with Wiggins though is I wouldn't want Andrew Wiggins if I got to pay him $30 million this year. I got to pay him 30 next year. I got to pay him 30 after, after that, if he picks up the option, like I'm not crazy about Andrew Wiggins because to me, he just like, you know, it's the same reputation he had, you know, when he came into the league. He just floats

in and out of games outside of the 2022 title run. I mean, Steph doesn't have a number two. And that's the other thing is I, like, I don't agree with what's going on, Bill and Phoenix, but at least like, I don't think it's going to work. At least they picked a direction. Like, at least they know what they want to do. Golden States like, all right, well, we want to be in with Kaminga for the future, but we want to be, you know, we want to compete right now with staff. Like either go all in or just blow the thing up and, and start the rebuild. I don't agree with like trying to try.

There's no blow up though. They don't, Kerr is the only real trade asset they have. I, you know, I don't know what else, what the other move is. They almost got marketing and they almost got Paul George and they're probably like thanking their lucky stars. Neither of those traits happen because they would have given up everything. They're being fooled right now. I believe that's what it is. I think they beat Oklahoma city and then all of a sudden they think, oh man,

all we need to do is just add something. So they have a conundrum right now. And the only reason they're going to keep winning games like that is because of the coaching of Steve Kerr, because of the greatness of Steph Curry. That's why. So they'll be good teams and you'll start to think, oh, okay, maybe, maybe we add somebody. I think it's a mistake. I do. I've said that. I think it's a mistake. I know Curry will never give in to being traded, but I just think it's a mistake. I think their run is over with this group. And, uh, you know, but again, I just think that they're going to win some games, man, they're going to beat some teams and you're going to say, uh, maybe they

can do it again because they did it a couple of years ago. So it's not like they don't reach back to something and say, we've done it before. And I think that's part of their problem. Yeah. But the problem is in 2022, when they did it, the league was completely different. I just don't think the league was nearly as good. There was some injury luck with some teams that went sideways and they kind of snuck in, they rode Curry, who I think was at a slightly different point in his career too.

In 22 versus now, I think that 22 team would not be able to do that in 25 with how deep the league is and how good it is. I agree. I, uh, I'm torn on it because Justin, you remember the, in the early nineties with the Celts when we had the big three and the question was always, how long do we keep these guys? Well, we can't treat, we got to keep these guys together. They won titles for us and the Celts were able to rebuild on the fly a little bit with Reggie Lewis, who was

a godsend, uh, Brian Shaw, Dee Brown, they had Ed Pinkney and they had this cool young old thing and it was pretty good. Like they weren't going to win the title, but they were in the mix. Like they, you know, they had two really good seasons and then Bird and Mikhail Celts just couldn't hold up. I don't even think the Warriors are close to that level, you know? So if I'm them, it's either a question of, do we owe this to Curry because we're never trading them? So if you feel, if you feel that way, then you got to do the Butler deal and give up whatever and try to hope that you catch lightning in a bottle with him.

Or you got to think about trading Curry. And I just don't think they're going to do it. I got a question for you. I got a question with him, or you gotta think about trading Curry, and I just don't think they're gonna do it. Well, I got a question for you. I got a question for you, Bill. Yeah. So say if Golden State had two players in front of them to trade for, Derek White or Devin Booker,

who you think they want? Well, Devin Booker is a better basketball player. Well, why are you, why did, I saw something where you had Derek White being a better trade chip. No, I had Devin Booker in the top 20. He was not. You saw the wrong thing. See, this is you get fooled by social media.

Well, I just want to explain to me. OK, all right. I have Devin Booker in the top 20. Of course. Now back to your other point before Eddie gave you some bad information. Oh, classic, classic fake news from Eddie. Hold up, muscle nose. Hold up. Put the put the camera back on Justin Termini. How dare you say that?

The only reason I brought it up is because somebody told me that's what was said. That's not what I said. I told you where Devin put it. No, I didn't. I said he was behind Derek Light. I might as well have just said Bill's a massive moron. You said he was behind. You said you were behind a muscle nose. I did not like that. Muscle nose.

I had him number 16. I did have him behind Jalen Williams and Cade Cunningham. I did have him behind Evan Mobley and Jaren Jackson. I think that's fair. Jalen Williams, really? Well, Jalen Williams had a rookie contract. Like, would you rather pay Jalen Williams nine million a year? That's the whole point of a trade asset.

So it's not about talent. No, it's about talent. It's about time of their career. It's about the salary. It's all those things. It's basically, you're telling me Phoenix wouldn't rather have Jalen Williams on a rookie contract than Devin Booker for 50 million a year. It's that there's no way.

It's the same exact thing between you and Eddie. Sirius thinks you're more talented, obviously, but you would cost them more money So they settle for Eddie because it's he's making a lot less money What makes you think that you would be the host and he would be the analyst You see the ego on this crazed animal? Like he put you in the analyst seat. Well, when you're in the analyst, it's how many you can have an ego.

It's the water boys show. It's two water boys. Wait, I'm going to say it really quick. Let's say Butler goes back there. Let's say they get a 50 cents, 40 cents of the dollar. Let's say she's Wiggins, Looney and Schroeder and some protected pick. And that's a trade. Miami is like, please take them, give them away. And Butler flips the switch.

Like he's done a couple of times this year to show everybody still has it. Does that team intrigue you at all? Or is that just a, only because I don't think the West, like, I know I, it intrigues me a little bit, but not necessarily just because they're great, just because who in the West is is dominant. Like how much faith do you have in Oklahoma City? As good as they are. We've never seen them win more than one playoff series.

Shane Gilder's Alexander's still like a young guy who as great as he is, hasn't really given us anything tremendous in the postseason is checking to be healthy. You know, teams with size have beat them up. Dallas has their number. The Lakers, I think, you know, aren't as talented. They match up well. So, you know, anything is possible. But I think it's just because of the weakness of the Western Conference. I don't know what you guys think. Yeah, I think the West is wide open. I do. You got your talent at the top, but I think anything can happen. So that's why I think the teams in the West are gonna be trying to be aggressive

in the following week before the trade deadline to see if they can get that key player. And Bill, you touched on this with Goldsbury a couple of weeks ago. I don't like this topic of like the West being better than the East, that is not the case this year. The Eastern Conference is better because the teams at the top are better.

Boston, Cleveland, New York are three of the top four teams, I think, in the entire NBA. There's one in the Western Conference, OKC. So Cleveland, New York, Boston have to go through each other. OKC doesn't have to do that. East is tougher than the West. Yeah, I look at it like ceilings, like your regular season ceiling versus your playoff ceiling.

So I see a team like Houston, and I'm really impressed by them. I like a young team, kind of a weird collection of assets. They barely have even one all-star, but when you watch them, it makes sense together. I don't know if there's another gear for them. If they're playing the same team six, seven times in two weeks, I think they'd be, they'd get easy. When you, but when you think about like Boston, Cleveland, especially the Knicks, there's another level. I feel like they can go.

I think question for me with OKC, cause I think everybody's going to defend them the same way. They're just going to trap Shay. They're going to send two guys at them. They're going to put, they're gonna make Jaylen Williams and some of these other guys basically have the ball and big moments a lot, like how people are defending the Celtics. The smart teams of the Celtics are trapping Jason at the top.

They're sending two guys at him. They really want like Jaylen Brown to decide the games now because he's not playing that well. And I just don't know if Jaylen Williams can win four straight playoffs in a row for you. And how is Shay going to figure out how do I be regular season Shea when I'm just seeing this constantly? So I think the West is open is my point. I think Oklahoma City is vulnerable because they're small.

Even if they bring Chad and they have Hardenstein, I still say they're small because they're going to play small ball. Even with those guys, they're going to rotate the small guys. And I just never see that really working in the finals the Celtics people looked at them They weren't small. Yeah, we had to make everywhere Jaylen Brown looks like a mini Hercules people see these dudes up close. They'll see how big they are And so it's a different animal, but you bought up Houston

I'm tell I don't think Houston's getting out of the West to the finals, but I would bet money that Boston wouldn't want to see them if they were on the other end of that. Because the one team I think matches up with them with physicality and a nastiness is Houston. Like, I'm seeing it. Plus, you saw Yudoka the other day, knows all the weaknesses. I mean, they're attacking Jalen Brown and he knows what Brown can do. He knows how to defend Tatum. And, you know, so that that's another thing in that matchup. Well, there's the Clippers game, I think, unfortunately, was a bad game for the

Celtics longterm because the Clippers coaching that game was so smart. They basically laid out the blueprint or reminded everybody of the blueprint and what to do against the Celtics. And Van Gundy was amazing in that, both of those guys. And now like Houston was basically doing a lot of the same stuff that the Clippers did in that game. And if you have big swings, you can protect the rim a little bit and you just keep blitzing Tatum and making everyone else beat you.

It's basically what it's going to come down to is can Jalen Brown get back to where he was last year? Because last year we were arguing about 1A, 1B with Tatum and Brown. That argument's over. Like it's 1-2 and we need, can Jaylen get back to 1B? He will. I think that, I honestly believe, Bill, these guys aren't built to get deep and go repeat, repeat, repeat like it used to be. Right? Is this something that the guys in the 80s and the 90s had that these guys just don't have.

And it's not all their fault. They make a ton of money, man. Even guys in the 80s and 90s, they had to push because they needed more money. Like they weren't even paid highly. Like, so they had a reason to go for it every year. They needed that playoff money. Like, so they had a reason to go for it every year. They needed that playoff money.

These guys don't need the playoff money. And so they have to be pushed. And I think what's going to happen with Boston is when it gets after April, I mean, not April, March, and they can see the end of it, we're gonna see the Boston team that we saw last year. I think Jalen's gonna wrap it up, or Tatum's gonna wrap it up, because now they can see the end. So I am not down on Boston, haven't been all year.

I've made excuses for them because, and think of that, I'm making excuses for teams you all love. But I have to. We're not down on them either, I'm just, Yeah, no, I agree. So, we're concerned. As far as the fatigue, I don't down on him either. I'm just, yeah, I'm with concerned as far as the fatigue. I don't even want to hear that as an excuse because I was so anti, you know,

all those guys going to the Olympics, then they had to do Abu Dhabi. So that's not like shocking to me that they're struggling, but I hated the fact they went to the Olympics. That's why I can't stand the Olympics. And then, and I know you love them, Bill. I hate them because I think, you know, I don't care. I'm a patriot, Justin. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I care about my country. Yeah. I care more about the Celtics or my NBA teams in Denver and Yolkich doing well, but no, it drives me nuts. Like Philadelphia fans should be irate that NBA's not playing. Well, that's true. Yeah. But the thing that calms me the most is like what other team

can give you what Porzingis is doing right now. So like as bad as other things are going, like I was at that game last night, Porzingis, you know, 34 points. I think he had 29 in the first half. If he's playing anything close to the level he's played at the last couple of weeks and stays healthy, to me they're still easily. Keyword healthy. That's for every team. I mean, for him, I'm saying if he's healthy, they are a major problem. So for him, it's just staying healthy and how they use him. Well, what if I, what if I said this to you? The 2025 champion will come from the East. I can, I can push back a little bit on that because what I can say is,

as what you all used to say about the West, it was top heavy, they had a lot of talent, and so by the time they got to the finals, they were tired. They got fatigued. Yep. It happened in the 80s with the Lakers. And so I can say the same thing with the East right now. And those three teams at the top. And just say, for instance, say for example, Philly gets healthy, okay, and they win a first round series. Right. And all of a sudden, it's a problem. We're back in the matrix. It's a problem. I'm just making a point. Yeah. Just say, just say Philadelphia pushes Boston or Cleveland to like six games when typically it would be a sweep in the first round. Yeah. You got to go play.

That's the winner's theory. Just they pushed them. Yeah. Say for example, they end up like, you know, playing the Celtics in the first round, like Boston plays Philadelphia. They gotta go six games when typically that's four or five. Then they got to play New York. That goes six or seven. Then they got to play Cleveland six or seven. Meanwhile, Oklahoma cities cruising through the West. They're a little beat up. I mean, we've seen the way what you just laid out was the reason the Lakers won all those titles in the eighties because they never had to play anybody. The East was just killing

each other and the Lakers are like, oh, we got to play the Spurs in the Western finals. Oh, no, they had to play some things. Stop. Stop. Oh, no, they didn't have to go through the pistons for stoppers. You know, through the sensors, because they were talented. They were they were a talented team. They were dominant. It's like the South. But then they had a hard road to get there. Just like the Bulls were a talented team. They were dominant. Just like the Southwicks. But then they had a hard road to get there. Just like the Bulls were a dominant team in the East. But it was teams that were good people. It was that were good in the East when the Bulls were running through the East.

And it was the way the Lakers when LeBron was running through these. You always don't want to get that. You don't want to give credit. Oh, my God. And that's your worst in the Eastern Conference. Yeah. That's your worst point you've made. Yes. It was teams that were good because what happened, yes it was. Because he was dominant.

Bill, it was more impressive that the Celtics in the 80s went to four consecutive finals than the LeBron in the Eastern Conference going to eight in the 2000s. He was dominant. He dominated all those teams. Those 80s Lakers had two rivals, both of whom flamed out immediately. The 86 Rockets, who were the absolute all-time kryptonite team for them. And that team implodes with drugs. And then the Mavs, that same era, Roy Tarpley stays healthy and they actually have to go through those two teams that they, that the, as you know, I hate the Lakers, the luck that they had in the eighties was unbelievable with the,

with their opponents. How do you live in LA and you hate, I've come to grips with it a while ago. That's amazing. I mean, you know, there's a lot to hate. That's like living in a 10,000 square foot house, but you'd hate the girl and she looked like a team. I mean, you know. There's a lot to hate. That's like living in a 10,000 square foot house, but you hate the girl and she looked like a teen. I mean, really, I mean, come on. I would lean toward the East to produce our champion, but I'm also not tied to it for

a bunch of reasons. One, all the stuff you laid out about how competitive it's going to be. But two, there's still some West teams. I'm not crossing up Denver at all. I know they've had a goofy year. I'm just not crossing them off yet because of how good Yoak is. I'm just not. I'm not.

I mean, I essentially, you know what? Like I'm a little higher than I was on him a couple of weeks ago, but, uh, like everybody's making a big deal about Jamal Murray all of a sudden waking up. I mean, he's been better than he was at the beginning. He's been definitely a hundred percent better. We talked about him a month ago on sudden waking up. I mean, he's been better than he was at the beginning. He's been definitely 100% better. We talked about him a month ago on your show and I was terrified that he's better. Yeah, but he's also not like a high level number two.

He's playing okay. No, but he's playing better. He's playing better, but he still needs to be better. I mean, he's making a match contract. All right, Justin Termini, you say he's not a high level, but when they won the title, was he high level? Absolutely. He's 27 in a game.

I thought he was better during that run than Tyree was during the one-test. He could become high level then. Hopefully, but we haven't seen it for a couple of years. Well, but we're seeing it now. And I think, again, like I said, I think so. Not to a high level. He's been better, but he hasn't been great. But he's grown through it. He's got 30 plus games left. So my point is where he is right now and how he's trending,

he's getting back to himself Bill i've never gotten off the bandwagon with denver. He knows justin knows this I i'm not i i they have too much talent You all a couple years ago said they had the best starting five in the basketball and they still got those same guys No, they don't. Yeah, they still't. They still got the starting. They don't have continuous. They turn brown. Ah, these bros. Brown's actually probably better than Cabo Poe.

I would say Brown is outplaying continuous. It doesn't matter. They took away from the bench when they... People go like, oh, they got rid of continuous. Now you're going back to the bench. Christian Brown's better. Well, Christian Brown has to go in the starting lineup which takes somebody off their bench.

Justin, I hear what you say about the bench. I'm not arguing that. But Christian Brown is a better player than contiguous Caldwell-Polk. And he's showing it. That's fine. Oh, there was on the bench. So now the bench is their starting five is just the same five and better right now. The bench has to get better.

I agree. But the starting five that won a title to the same guy. I'm not the league. The bitch has to get better. I agree. But the starting five that want a title, they're the same guys. I'm not. The league is better. I mean, I just think it's so admirable for the very small market Denver Nuggets to patch together this team when they have so many final. Oh no, that's actually Denver's a big city, by bet. And they're owned by a very small group. They're owned by a guy who's married to the Walmart family. Exactly.

And somehow they can't get like a ninth or tenth man. And they're trading three second round picks just to get rid of the contract they signed Reggie Jackson to. So now they have no assets to get better. So even if Jokic was whining like Anthony Davis or LeBron, they couldn't do anything about it because they have nothing to trade. So congratulations. All Jokic needs is to get to the finals and does not have to play against Carl Anthony Towns who owns his lunch. Oh, stop it.

Yeah, no, that's right. He owns his lunch. That's ridiculous. He can't even score on Kat. Kat locked him down twice. Stop. He locked him down twice. He got in foul trouble yesterday and Mike Moe took him out of the line.

He had pedestrian numbers. Carl Anthony Towns is locking him up. Way to watch the game last night. Locking him up. Can I ask you guys about as a line up. Yeah pedestrian numbers call Anthony towns Is we watch the game last night? Can I ask you guys about one West team? Is it I'm gonna whisper this one Clippers, there's something there

It's a playoff team. Why? Yeah, why can actually start to look like I saw the start to look like. I saw him the other day. I saw him the other day. OK. He did a few things in that game that made me say, hmm, if he's back to that. I mean, he pushed the ball up the court and I mean, he looked fast just laterally, like that's what I'm looking at. And they're afraid to play him and I get it.

They took him out of the four corners. Is that a 28 minute limit and it's like 20 minutes you're out? I was glad they did. I was glad they did. Because who knows, we might not have beat him the other night. But no, he looked good, man. That's all I'm going to say. But he's done this before. Because, Justin, they have Zubots who's turned into

not an All-Star center, but he was maybe in the borderline. So it was hard at Powell. Yeah. Kawhi, all these role players. And I think they have a top three coaching staff. Exactly. You mentioned just about everything.

They can defend with the best teams in the NBA. Ty Lute and me. Really smart. You want to say like Eric Spolcher is the best head coach. All right. Well, Ty Lute is me. Really smart. You want to say like Eric Spolster is the best head coach? All right, well, Ty Lute is right on his heels. I think he's the second or third best head coach in the sport. So you're right there. I mean, a lot of us in the media are going to look like absolute morons if they make a deep run because we crushed them. But yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if they made a run. See, Justin cares about that more than we're not going to bat a thousand. We're going to get some

stuff wrong. There was no sign, none that the Quippers were going to bat a thousand. We're going to get some stuff wrong. There was no sign, none that the Quippers were going to be a possible playoff team. You were worried about Kawhi. But also they lost Paul George who was important for them and they replaced them with a bunch of dudes. And it's like, and then when you watch them, the team makes sense. Derek Jones is a really good ad for them. And then you think like Kawhi comes in, all he's doing is taking Batum's minutes and some Terrence Mann minutes. It's like, this is legit. Even if he plays 25 minutes a game, Harden, I still feel like the right teams can

take him out because he doesn't have the same burst that he did. Like if he's going against like a Houston or a Memphis, like teams with young big wings that they can throw at him, I think it's hard for him to get his shots. But I'll tell you another thing that's, and I've talked about it before, but they have, Eddie, have you done a game at Intuit yet? Oh yeah, two games, three games there. They have a borderline home court advantage now, which is nuts. They never had anything before.

They got off to a slow start, and I think it's just them getting familiar with their own court, but since then they've been pretty good. I think they've only lost, what what they lost four games early and they've only lost four games since. Uh, no, that is a tremendous advantage. That wall is ridiculous. I mean, you did, you did see the Ron air, you did see LeBron air ball of

free throw, I think with, uh, you know, the wall of air. So, right. Yeah. No, I think that team's really interesting to me. The Spurs, if they got Fox, which we should talk about, no, I think that team's really interesting to me The Spurs if they got Fox which we should talk about Just what I just I want to watch this next two wimpy months cuz they're 20 and 24 right now and somehow they're only five Games out of the five Well, that's the thing. It's probably a lot of picks. Actually, let's talk about that. We'll take one more break

It's probably a lot of picks. So actually, let's talk about that. We'll take one more break. Clear your schedule for you time with a handcrafted espresso beverage from Starbucks. Savor the new small and mighty Cortado. Cozy up with the familiar flavors of pistachio or shake up your mood with an iced brown sugar oat shaken espresso. Whatever you choose, your espresso will be handcrafted with care at Starbucks. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly.

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I was taping a pot on Tuesday with Versillo, and then all of a sudden this trade thing came out and I was like, boy, that's weird. And that's like, he has a specific team. Hmm. And then it turns out he wants to go to the Spurs. I haven't talked about this on my pod. I know you've probably talked about it on your show, Justin. I had great career move by Darren Fox trying to go to the Spurs. I haven't talked about this on my pod. I know you've probably talked about it on your show, Jesson.

I had great career move by Darren Fox trying to go to the Spurs. Like this is like trying to join the hit TV show. That's going to be the number one show on TV for the next 10 years. Like it's, I get why he wants to do it. It's part, they need somebody like him. The question for me is what is the timetable for the Spurs? Do you even need to do this now? What's the point of it? You have no chance to win a title. Could you, if he wants to play for you this bad, why not just wait till he's a free agent? Why am I giving up stuff

for him now? He's trying to get out ahead of it, right? Because everybody's going to want to go there. So it's a smart decision by him if that's what he wants to do because Eddie if Eddie could still play Eddie would be like I'm here. I'll stand in the corner Every every single player in the league should want that all the broadcasters like, you know us We should want to go down there and cover him and just like you don't be there play-by-play guys because it's gonna be fun For like 15 years where you get to watch that every single night So like it's smart by Darren Fox now The question is is it smart by San Antonio

to go out there and get him? I mean, is that like, what is he 27? So by the time when Benyama is ready, you know, he's, and I think when Benyama I guess is ready right now, but I guess the other pieces, cause you need more than just Fox and Benyama. But like, is he even the guy that you think fits in perfectly with him?

I mean, he shoots in the low 30s in regards to three point percentage. You know, he's not a particularly high level defender. He hasn't impacted winning in Sacramento. So I don't know if that's like my first choice, De'Aaron Fox. You automatically become a better defender with that dude behind you. Oh, of course. You would be a good defender with him behind you. Right.

I mean, all you gotta do is stay in front of your man. And De'Aaron Fox is so good at of your man. I don't know about that. Come on. And De'Aaron Fox is so good at that. But here's where the fit is perfect. And I brought this up the other day. When Fox with Sabonis was really good, but the problem is they're both left-handed. Now you're coming off that screen with now Wim Benyama. Now he's going off to his right and bearing Fox's to his left.

It's a better pass, it's an easier fluid pass, it's all of that. I think Fox is looking at that as well. A lot of times he and Sabonis kind of ran into each other a little bit because of that dynamic. But now, like this dude coming off left, and you got to agree he's one of the best guys in the paint in regards to being a guard. And now he's got that size to really initiate stuff too.

I think that's one of the reasons why he's looking at it. And I think he's the perfect blend for him, you know? And I think even Chris Paul at times has a tough time with that in regards to him. So, you know, cause Chris is a more like a right handed guy as well. So I think the nuances there, man, is just, it's going to be really good if he's able to get there. Plus Fox was, they were two seed two years ago. He was the best guy in that team.

So it's not like he, teams haven't succeeded with them. I guess we're, the way I'm looking at it, the risk would be. If we don't do this now, what if somebody trumps him? What if somebody else trades for him? What if we lose this opportunity? So then who are the other guys out there? Because they clearly need somebody like this. They need somebody give them the car keys, let him run shit. And it's like, you start looking around the league, who else is it? Like Garland's not leaving Cleveland. Garland was the guy to get last summer and they probably should have tried to overpower them. Do you wait on Maxey? Hope Philly just goes so far sideways that maybe they would just want a complete rebuild.

He go through all the rosters and he's kind of the best fit for what they need. And he probably will never leave because he's from Texas. So he wants to be in Texas. And you want players on your team that want to be in a certain region, especially if it's San Antonio. Why would you leave once you get there? I mean, you're going to be winning. You're going to be playing on national television every day.

Well, okay. But Penny Hardaway and Shaq broke up. Safar Marbury left Kevin Garnett. Well, that was the worst one. That'll never get over that one. That's right at the beginning of their career. Fox is now to play Sacramento, who's a bunch of games,

then get hooked up to Wim Benyama. Not if he chooses to go there. But you were like rattling off names, Bill. Like, Luca's a free agent, what, two years. All you hear about is Miami. Why is it only Miami that can get these guys to the league? Oh, he culture. He culture's red hot right now.

But you know, you hear that name, linked to Miami. Why can't Luca be linked to playing with Wembenyama? Just because it's not Miami or LA. That makes Luca look like a loser, honestly. Like, he's just gonna, this is the same shit. But LeBron already looked like a loser. Toronto already looked like a loser. I know, but think of LeBron

doing shit for that for eight years. LeBron didn't go to no Wembenyama. You need to stop, man. No, he went to Wade was one of the three best players in the league when he went there. And LeBron was the best player on the team until Wade figured it out and stopped trying to do everything the next year and they won two back to back. How dare you even bring that analogy up? Wow.

Wade was probably the third best player in the league? And the best player on the team that year, at least in the finals. In the 2011 playoffs, he was the best player of the team. Exactly. He wasn't chopped liver. He'd already had a title. And Shaq wasn't chopped liver either. Wade don't sniff a finals victory back then if it wasn't for Shaq and

Alonzo Mourning, so you all stop. I mean, we agree with that. That's fine. But he was still a top five player. So if you're San Antonio and you can trade for Fox, keep castle. Cause castle is just, I'm not even discussing him, not discussing Wemby. And you can potentially keep Vasell and then you add Fox and I don't care. What, take your pick.

What picks do you want? Like I, I would probably do it as long as it wasn't an insane amount of picks. I don't know what these teams are doing with all their picks. If they can keep so high, they need to keep them. If they can keep them, man. Atlanta, they have Atlanta's pick, right? The upcoming draft as well. So that's going to get more value because Jalen Johnson's hurt.

So that's even more valuable. I really like that Atlanta team too. I thought they were like a six seed kind of range sleeper and then they just can't get healthy. They beat the Celtics twice in Boston. They beat Cleveland, I think multiple times. Because Trey's having a great year. He was a snub.

Let's just put it where it is. Trey was a snub. Trey Young was a snub because the way he's played, he's changed his game. He realized he's not Steph. He stopped playing like Steph and he started playing like a point guard and he's had a, he's had a very good year, man. And so I think he's a snub in the East as well.

So is the league more fun if there's a Fox to San Antonio trade this year? I think it is. We basically sacrifice Sacramento as a playoff team and replace them with San Antonio. Cause I think they'd make a run. What if they get Chris Paul? Sacramento? Yeah. If Chris Paul was in the trade.

Yeah. You think Sacramento could still patch it together? They'd have an older team, right? I think anyway Chris Paul goes, they're dangerous. So why'd you try to trade them? Why'd you trade them for Phoenix? Why'd you sign off on that deal? I wasn't the GM. Telling us how good use of Nurgle was. What do you mean me? What do you trade him? Why'd you trade him from Phoenix? Why'd you sign off on that deal? I wasn't the GM.

Telling us how good Yusuf Nurkic was. What do you mean me? What do you mean me? Why are you blaming me? Remember that year when Eddie thought Yusuf Nurkic was good? We had to like kindly remind him over and over again. They had a fight. Look guys, obviously you guys,

I have to eat crow because you all can get on me based on what's going on. But I will say this, you know know do you honestly think that he was able to play the way that he can play like he's a rebounder that's what he's one of the best he should be on a lottery team he's one of the best rebounders in the game sure I've never looked at him either any more than that. The biggest problem for Nerkish, and I hope he improves it, because it seems like he probably will get moved,

is he's just gotta make, I don't know what it is. He's gotta find out wherever a peak newel protege is, and he's just gotta spend a whole summer with him. Eddie, he's in his 30s. It's not happening. Give up the ghost. But that's the ground. That's the ground.

This is too much talk already. Does he only not talk to boot and holes? No, he's just talking to him. He's already packed. He goes to the sons games and he has all his suitcases in case the trade happens. Well, obviously it's not good when you're not playing and you're not talking to the coach. I can't even run from that. It's not, it's not good, but I will say this. He's been very good on the bench over there

Hasn't been a negative Years they set the bench Other teams are watching he still takes more Watching and all fairness so he's doing it the right way He's doing all fairness even though he doesn't he still takes more free throws than DeAndre Aitken. I saw that stat. What is he at?

1.1? No, he might go back to Portland. The thing that ticked me off is Eddie and I talked about that on the show like two days ago and then Stapp News came out with that stat the day after we talked about it. They stole it from us. Yeah. He might be back in Portland, guys. You never know.

Eddie, can we go back to Webby for a second? What year did you enter the league? 85? 81. 81? Jesus. The Celtics smartly drafted Ainsch ahead of him. Thank you Red Harbor. Hey Bill, you know this. That was the worst draft the Celtics ever had. Really was. They had a chance to draft me. I remember this story. They drafted Ainsch. He made an All-Star team,

you never know. We messed up the other two picks though. Cost you all another title too. Oh my God, Bird would have put Eddie in the Hall of Fame. He'd be like Michael Cooper. Like how about in the Hall of Fame? Without a doubt. My God, how did this happen?

Bill without a doubt he would have. Locked him on cancer. All right, so you've been in the league since 1981 in various capacities. Have you ever seen anything remotely approaching Wemby in person? No. He's the biggest freak of nature I've ever seen. Now I used to say that about Mark Eaton. I used to say it about Manu Ball, who obviously not the talent that Wemby is. But when you look at a dude like that, and I even said it one time about, you know, Joe Embi. Justin and I was in the summer league standing next to him,

and I didn't realize how massive he was. But Wimby? No, I've never seen anything like that. I'm serious, man. Look, when you can dunk, he's in the warmup line dunking flatfooted. Right. Like, I've never seen that so when you're on the plane after a game or all the sons players and coaches Just talking about him for the next half hour You know the problem with our plane they sit way up in the front we fly one of them big giant monstrosity I'm not even near them never even see them. They're late for the poker games never even see him. Nope Never see him. Nope.

Never seen him. How sad. Isn't that amazing you can fly on a plane and you never see the players? Jesus. Well, in your day, you're sitting in airports. Oh, sitting there gambling with the players. I went, please, yes. Yeah, with the coaches.

It was like everybody. Yeah, it's not like that anymore. People are coming up to you in the gates. That was such a fascinating era. Yeah, with the coaches. It was like everybody. Yeah, it's not like that anymore. People are coming up to you in the gates. That was such a fascinating era. Yeah, yeah it was. Yeah it was. Just eating like McDonald's with a two hour connection in Kansas City trying to go somewhere else.

Holding on, getting on a flight five in the morning and some guy sitting next to you and he wants to have a conversation. You don't even know who he is. Right, so are you a basketball player? So we should talk about the Suns. Because you weren't on Justin's show today, so he didn't get the, uh, the privilege, pleasure, honor of, of your reaction to the ESPN story about some of the Sun stuff.

My take, and I've said this before, is I actually think the Suns, the team they built is a team that really made sense in the 2010s, but the league is just way better now. And that star system, which a bunch of teams have, where they have the two really good guys, it just doesn't work the way it did. Like you really need seven to nine guys

who can be good at all times built around the two. And I don't know how they, they're kind of down this road down. I don't know how they fix it. I know they freed up some picks, but is this even fixable in your opinion? You're at every game. I think it is. And I've said this time and time again, just watching them all year, they're the biggest problem.

It's not the opponent. It's them. And what I mean by it is if you look statistically at the numbers when they win, if they don't turn it over, and I mean like you're going to turn the ball over, but I mean like 14, 15, you're giving up 18, 20 points off turnovers. The games they don't do that, they win. The games they rebound, at least stay close on the offensive glass, they win. Because they normally out-shoot the opponent. We have lost a numerous amount of games this year where we've lost, we've shot 49, 50% and lost.

Why? Because the opponent got 18 more field goal attempts. Right. And that is the issue with them. It's so simple. And we see it. We've seen it over the stretch when they've been winning. We see it over the stretch when they don't turn it over and they rebound, they win. And they know it, but they just can't. It's just like last night. Last night, pretty much had the game under control. I watched it.

Start turning it over. It's that part that drives you nuts. I think that's fixable to me. That's fixable. Say what you want about Bradley Beal. People say he doesn't fit and all that. Dude playing his butt off off the bench, man. He literally is trying to defend and he's literally scoring the ball at wheel. He's obviously one of our most efficient players. So it's that part that drives me nuts calling the game. And obviously I can't go all crazy, but it's just like I'm watching it and I'm like, dude, just take one more dribble to the right and throw it into the post. Why are you, you know, it's just simple things that they get in trouble with.

And it's just really, it's like, it drives you nuts to watch it at times. What do you see, Justin? Yeah. I mean, I think Eddie hit it on the head with the rebounding that they might have the worst center rotation. We've talked about this on the head with the rebounding that they might have the worst center rotation. We've talked about this on the text. They might have the worst center rotation in the entire NBA. So they can't rebound. That's an issue. So what do you rebound now though, John? Yeah, you got Nick Richards. Yeah, now you got Nick Richards.

It's like getting Will Chamberlain in 1965. Exactly. I mean, he almost gave you a 2020 game the other day. So it's improved a little bit. But yeah, rebounding is an issue. I mean, they're one of the five worst defensive teams in the NBA. And I too agree like that it's improved a little bit, but yeah, rebounding is an issue. I mean, they're one of the five worst defensive teams in the NBA. And I too agree like that it's fixable again, because I don't have much confidence in the teams at the top of the Western Conference outside of Oklahoma City. I'm the more on the pick them to go to the finals this year. Eddie picked him to win the title like three straight years. Then he didn't pick them this year.

I picked them to go to the finals and lose. So I think it's fixable this year. But the issue I have is long term. You don't win this year, like say get Jimmy Butler and rectify it. It's not going to get better next year. It's not going to get the better the year after that. And you're stuck with what you have. So I think like this year, they could still make a pretty decent run. But after that, moving forward, they might be the biggest mess in the NBA. And why did they make that trade for three different picks if they didn't have something lined up, like they turned to 2031 pick,

that's going to be valuable. I thought when they made that deal, okay, well they know they're going to turn it into Jimmy Butler or some other big piece. They've done that. They don't have anything lined up. But if they, if they don't make a move bill, I had the same reaction. You don't do that because they basically turn the $2 bill into a dollar and two quarters. You don't do that unless you know you're about to do something.

So then everybody's like, all right, can't wait to see what it is. A week passed. They didn't do anything. Like if you just wanted Zach Levine, you could trade like say Bradley Beal and attach the 2031 pick. Now he wouldn't go to Chicago apparently,

but the point is like that would get it done perhaps. Cause that picks so bad. Well, my guess is they're trying to use one of the picks to dump Nerkic on another team, right? So then maybe he's in a three team or a four team trade, whatever, but either way, once you dump him, you have more flexibility to do the next move. And I'm sure there has to be some master plan, but. Yeah. The sons have been. Me personally, I think that we're a physical player away from really being competitive this year in the playoffs.

And that's at the forward position, whoever that guy can be. I just don't think it has to be a guy that's high level guy. I just think it's a guy that rebounds the ball. If we get more field goal attempts, then the opponent will win. I will put anything on that with the scores that we have. If we can rebound and don't allow second chance points and get the same amount of field goal attempts, I think we'll win most games. And I think that's their weakness right now is the rebounding.

And if they can shore that up and I'm pretty sure that's what they're trying to do, then I think it helps. That's a tough one for me. Cause that was one of my best bets heading into the year was I Phoenix over 47. Now, Eddie, you've watched a rant now for almost two years up close doing every game. Is there anything that stood out that you just had no idea until you're watching them night after night?

He's just relentless, man. Like when I tell you, he's just relentless. The dude, like, you know, it's never an accident to be that good offensively. Right. It's not an accident. I'll just give you all the story real quick. We had a large event and it was at the practice facility about a month and a half ago. Everybody was dressed up and everything and they had like a little mingle thing going on with the fans and all of that. They had the baskets down. The whole entire night he was shooting.

I was blown away. Like the whole entire night he was over that shooting. You know, people come over and talk to him and all that, but he shot the entire night. And I'm saying to myself, dude, why do you have to keep shooting? Like we know it's like, it's ingrained in them. So it's like something he was doing from like age six. Yeah.

That's just part of his life every day. Yeah. And you know, the impact, I don't know, I haven't mentioned it to him yet cause I've been able to talk to him since then, but it's like that blew me away. Like it's like, that's why this dude is this good offensively. Like he just, he understands his craft and he knows what he has to do.

But no, the shot making man, you know, watching it from afar and all of that. Yeah. But no, just to see it every day. It's ridiculous, man. I keep waiting for signs of slippage with him because he's been in the league for 18 years now, Justin. Yeah. You know, there's moments when he looks a little stiffer than maybe when you go back

and you watch like the early OKC stuff and he's just such a crazy freak, seven foot. So it's a whiff stiffer, but he has all the same shots and he's so smart at it. It's almost like what was happening with LeBron near the end when you just kind of know where to go, where to be. You can read everything and you know exactly what your best play is. I don't really see a lot of slippage. I don't know how much longer this goes.

Yeah, and the thing I don't understand is like the talent from like an individual perspective. I haven't seen a drop off. I just don't understand why it doesn't result in team success ever since he left Golden State, right? He goes to Brooklyn, like you saw him play the Celtics in the first round. He did get outplayed by Tatum in all four of those games. That was the second year. The first year though, they had the bad luck with the injuries. And that's the big what if. Exactly. With his foot on the line and all that type of stuff. And he was like, they probably go on to maybe win a championship because they were facing Phoenix in the finals. They would beat Phoenix.

And then he goes to Phoenix and they've been unable to get out of the second round. They get swept last year. So it's like weird that it hasn't translated into team success, even though they've, you know, he's played with talented players. I will add something just like an individual story, because Eddie and I crushed him when he went to Golden State. I know you were a little bit easier on him. I'd like go back and forth with him on Twitter. And I've been, you know, critical of aspects of like his career and his decision-making, even though he's an amazing talent. We interviewed him last year and I've had a lot of stars who I'll be critical of. They won't even look at me like Durant comes up and jokes around about it. We'd laugh about some of the stuff that I've criticized for him in the past.

Answers every question, uh, jokes around, gives you a high five, says hello whenever you see him. So I just love the way the guy handles himself. You know, there's something Eddie said about when we talk about Lebron once. When, when you think like when somebody gets to the league, did they maximize whatever the potential of what they could have been? Right? I think LeBron is the best example of this, whatever you thought the ceiling was. And he had the most expectations just about anybody.

And then he hit all the expectations. I think the rants like that too. And yet he's always going to have this thing about switching teams and that's going to become part of the legacy. But what's, what's interesting to me about legacy is just watching Vince Carter, right? He gets this Jersey retired in Toronto and in New Jersey. He's in New Jersey for four and a half years.

I just don't think anybody gives a shit after a while, right? So even Toronto, where you would think at any fan base would be the maddest at a player who left. And even there, like, yeah, we don't care. And I just think when Durant, when he retires and was like, Oh, what's going to happen? Who's going to retire his number? I think he'll get his number retired at OKC and Golden State.

And I think his legacy will be fine. At the rate they do it, they'll probably do it in Brooklyn. I mean, Brooklyn might. If they're going to do Vince Carter, maybe Katie's next. Exactly. And the Vince Carter one really bothers me. Are they going to like give Jimmy Butler a Jersey retirement? Are they going to, you know, put a snap to Jimmy Butler?

I'm not ruling anything out. The Vince Carter thing, I couldn't believe. Paul George is upset because he never got a tribute video. I don't know if you saw that. He came out and ripped the basers. He tried to force a trade out of Indiana for a year. Exactly. And like you treat the organization that way, you leave them high and dry and you want to be like honored

I just don't understand like there's a reward for handling yourself the right way in the city And then you'll get the honor if you leave in a wrong way, then you shouldn't get it I think people have a forgiving heart and I think We've had friends in our lives that we probably thought we'd never be friends with them again and years go by that we probably thought we'd never be friends with them again, and years go by, and we kind of get a softer heart, and we give in to the temptation of maybe, you know... So you're telling me I'll like you in 20 years? In 20 years I'll like you then?

Well, I mean, you know, hey, you do get a lot of people that's been divorced and they still get along. You know, it's just, I just think fans, I think over a period of time, I think they just remember the good times and they, and they, and they forget. It is funny. It is crazy how that works out. The Toronto thing really blew my mind.

It's like you can quit on a team and then you can get honored. Yeah. I don't understand that. Yeah. I get like there were some good times in it too, but it's, I guess there's the statute of limitations for all this stuff. But back to KD, like, I just think all that stuff washes away. He won two titles.

He's one of the best either 15 or 20 players ever, depending on, you know, what your list is. And that's just going to be the legacy. But a hundred percent, because people only count stuff. Like you go back in the 1960s, all they do is count 1970s. They just look at basketball reference. They don't look at the context behind anything. So yeah, it's going to matter maybe to me and you how we won his championship. In 50 years, they're just going to count it on basketball reference with absolutely no

clue. But I'll just say this, and I've told him this, I was upset that he went there only because I wanted OKC to beat Golden State. That's why I was upset. And I knew him going to Golden State, he was going to win championships but Golden State was not beating LeBron if he did not go there and And I think that's what he can carry and I think Golden State fans know that so I think yeah, they're gonna retire his jersey They're gonna treat him like the king there because they knew they were in trouble They knew that they weren't gonna beat that Cleveland team the next couple of

years. I don't know. I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think Golden State won 73 games. Curry was hurt that 2016 playoffs in Cleveland the next two years. Kyrie LeBron got rocky. Kyrie left. Um, I don't know.

Stuff got weird in Cleveland. And the other thing is like, I always look at it, if you replace Durant with that, like, I mean, even go back to another Golden State, great. If you put Rick Barry on that Golden State team, they're definitely winning the title if you replace Durant with Barry. And that's what bothers me, like, even with the bombs. Rick Barry, like, in his 60s or Rick Barry when he played? Maybe Rick Barry even in his 60s.

Maybe even then, but definitely, like like during the prime of his career. I'm saying the same thing. I agree. It was an automatic win, but they weren't going to have that automatic win because if he did not go there. Maybe, maybe not, but it's just hard. If you took Jaylen Brown, for example, and put him there, they're definitely winning as well.

And he's not anywhere close to it. And he had the big shots too. Here's the thing. He had the big shots, too They were here's the thing he had the big shots to seal those there were no big shots They were winning the series in four or five games, but he hit the big shots I mean he hit the big shots in that series and then so that's the difference So this is the thing like if you just go back to that clay Thompson game the sliding doors of it Okay, see just beats Golden State Then okay see place Cleveland in the finals.

And it feels like the next nine years of the league is just different. I don't know how it plays out. Like what if OKC beats Cleveland? And then it's like LeBron doesn't get the title in Cleveland. Does he stay in Cleveland until he gets the title? What happens? What happens to Golden State if Durant doesn't go there? Like they're, you know, I, it's probably the biggest what if of this century.

And then you'll, you'll view Durant doesn't go there. Like they're, you know, I, it's probably the biggest what if of this century. And you view Durant completely different. Westbrook doesn't have to deal with any of the BS that he's dealt with his entire career. That's what he gonna leave. But, but just look, if Denver wins, it's going to be Westbrook leading Yocchi. So don't worry about it. No, of course. This is finally, we can all agree on Westbrook at the same time, which I don't

know if it's ever happened. I love Westbrook and Yocchi. I never gave up on Westbrook. the same time, which I don't know if it's ever happened. I love Westbrook and Jokic. I never gave up on Westbrook. I know you did. I got to hand it to you. You never gave up. I said he should retire earlier this year. And I'm just, I just want to say that I'm glad that Westbrook found a teammate that was smart enough to understand how to

utilize him. He finally found the guy who knows how to play the game. It's weirdly bad for LeBron, Eddie. This is like in the Jokic versus LeBron argument. This is not, this is an L for LeBron, Eddie. This is like in the Jokic versus LeBron argument. This is an L for LeBron. Bill, it's easy to say that, but here's what I told Justin last week. It's like, Jokic is the best, it was the best combination for Westbrook,

because with LeBron, LeBron handled the ball, Westbrook handled the ball. It wasn't a good mix. Down in Houston, Hart handled the ball, Westbrook handled the ball. It wasn't a good mix. Down in Houston, Hart handled the ball, Westbrook handled the ball. It was not a good mix. Even when he went to Washington and he played with Bill, Bill was wanting to handle the ball. In Washington, Westbrook didn't take off until Bill got injured. And here was my response. Yeah. And so you're right, Addy. It's the best combination because Jokic plays differently than everyone else. Yeah. And so you're right, Eddie. And LeBron should have been intelligent enough to understand

that that he needs the ball. Westbrook needs the ball. And that was LeBron's mistake because he wanted to play with him. Well, no, no, no. The ball goes into the king's hands. That's the one real nitpick with LeBron is everybody else has to fit toward him. And that's the way it should be. That's the way it should be. Some of the best players of all time fit to the teammates. Yeah, LeBron made a mistake bringing them there. I will say that.

But the ball goes into LeBron's hands. All I had to hear for... I don't care who's on the floor with him. Whether it's Magic or Bird, you can make that argument. Okay? Bringing the ball up, I'm saying. Not in the half court. Because then we can argue Yokes. But what I'm saying is ball goes into LeBron's hands. That's just the ball up. I'm saying not in the half court. Cause then we can argue Yokes. But what I'm saying is ball goes into the bronze hands. That's just the way it is. Also though,

the fact that Westbrook is seems like he's like 95% as explosive as he was 12 years ago. Like he's just an all time freak. Even LeBron like slowed down and got bigger and changed some of what he did. Westbrook seems like he's just like, I don't know. He's a freak of nature. I don't understand that. Even though I said he should retire, I'm happy that he is not because I do love his mental approach. It's awesome.

And we need a guy that cares every single night as much as he does. Think about this though. What about Presti? He had three MVPs, and all three of those guys were three of the best condition athletes. Now Harden had his ups and downs. But the one thing about Harden, he played every night and he had to bring the ball up against little dudes. He beat them off the dribble. So his energy level was high as well.

But those three guys, KD, Russ, and Hard on the same team, you can put them up there with the top energy guys in the history of the game. I mean, they have been, they persevered. I flew to Oklahoma City at the end of 2010 because I just wanted to go to a game. I really liked watching OKC and I just kind of wanted to see them before they ascended to whatever was going to happen with them. And I went to a practice and at the end of the practice, they were running the wind sprints and KD and Russ were beating everybody in the wind sprints. And they're like busting each other's ass, trying to beat some random day in

December in the middle of the season. And they're flying back and forth, trying to beat each other. And I really think like that, like all those early years where they're competing against each other and Harden's trying to compete against them probably had some weird, you know, carry on effect to the fact that we're in the mid 2020s and all those guys are still on important teams, you know, doing their thing. Cause now they're on their mid 30s. It's amazing. Yeah.

Um, before we go quick, quick game of do you believe, do you believe in Cleveland as an actual title contender? Justin? I do. Eddie likes, we've had this debate cause Eddie likes the Knicks more than the Cavs. I like the Cavs more than the Knicks. And, uh, you know, I love what Don, here's what we do agree though on Cleveland is we both love that Donovan Mitchell has taken a step back and involved his teammates a little bit more. Cause I thought that was a major issue Here's what we do agree though on Cleveland is we both love that Donovan Mitchell's taking a step back And yeah, this teammates a little bit more because I thought that was a major issue in Utah I thought it was a major issue the first couple of years in Cleveland the fact that his numbers have dropped a little bit

Shouldn't be an indication of his play getting worse. It's the same exact thing Boston did last year You look at everybody in that rotation took a step back for the sacrifice Sacrifice that's what Donovan Mitchell's doing this year. I absolutely love it. And I take them seriously as a title contender. And the other thing that I love is like people wanted to break up Mitchell and Garland. And there was even some thought bill that Garland wanted out.

Remember last off season, I don't think it was, I don't think it was a thought. I think, I don't know if he was a hundred percent happy. Of course. And then same thing with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. Can they play together? They keep them together. And I love continuity. I know you're big on this as well. Like the longer teams stay together, the easier, like that's why Philadelphia like this year, I didn't believe in them anyway, because it's three guys being thrown together that you knew weren't going to

play it on. Like continuity means something. And now they're at the point where they know each other inside and out. So I take them as a legitimate threat. I have them number two behind Boston in the East. Yeah, no, they're a threat. They definitely are a threat. They're the biggest team, one of the biggest teams in the league, and I think Jared Allen, if he can stay healthy,

I think he's the key. I think he's the key. Their wings are a concern, and I guess how they deal with size is a little bit concerned at the guard position, which is why Boston matches up well against them with Holliday and White, Tareon, and Brown. Yeah, and Carreth LeBurd, I think, off the bench for them, whether he's off the bench or starting, he's going to have to be consistent, right?

And so I think they got enough. Yeah, I do. I think they have enough to offset because they can bother Boston with their size. Yeah. Uh, and then I think they just maybe have, you know, the same amount of experience as New York. So it's like almost a crap shoot with the two of them. So I think they do have a chance. Right now in Fandl, they're plus 850.

They have the third best odds for the title. The Celtics are plus 210. OKC is plus 230. Don't make a Terry Rozier joke. No, no, I wasn't going to. Uh, I was going to, I'll make a Terry Rozier joke. Would you bet on Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson? If you're Terry Rozier, would you put money on Jalen Brunson or Donovan Mitchell in a series?

Cause don't forget Brunson's beat him twice. I'll played him twice. Once in, uh, when Mitchell was in Utah, once he was in Cleveland. So my fear, I think the Knicks are really good and you can see them getting better and you know, they're going to get a bio guy and they'll have an eight man rotation. You know, they're all going to play too many minutes and somebody will probably get hurt. But I think the ceiling, I'm really impressed by them, especially offensively. I do wonder with the,

with the amount of stuff they're putting on Brunson, how sustainable that is for nine months. That would be my biggest fear if I'm a Knicks fan. It's not a big guy. We just haven't seen teams built around small guards be able to survive for nine months. The only guy that really did it was Isaiah. Well, don't you, I mean, they killed Becky Hammond

for saying the same exact thing, so be careful, Bill. I think it's on Brunson, though. I think Brunson has to be honest with himself because I think he plays beat up a lot. I don't think it's sustainable. He plays beat up a lot and I don't think he needs to sit down at times and I think it's just that mentality of you know he shouldn't have to worry about it but I think if I sit down something might happen you know so I take my minutes kind of thought. That's not happening with him.

I just think he's all wrapped up, man. To be a young player, you just always got something on his body. Yeah, and I love that fact. And they got great crowds, but that's why I like Cleveland a little bit more. I like the way they've handled the regular season. They're winning, but you look at their minutes,

and everybody's like 30 minutes and below. Like they're really kind of pushing toward wherever they're guys a lot. The next play their guys, top two guys. That's yeah. 36 minutes and up for the top two. Um, do you believe in Zion at this point, Eddie? No.

Uh, I believe in his talent, but I don't believe that he is capable of keeping himself in shape. I think that's part of the issue. I've seen a lot of basketball players in my life playing the NBA, and I always wondered, was that guy better off being a football player or a basketball player? I still continue to say it. When I first saw Zion in high school and I saw him on the basketball court, I said, that's

a football player that's very good at basketball. And I think his mentality is that of a football player, of like alignment or something. We don't have to do a ton of stuff, you know? And for me, I just don't, I don me, basketball seems to not have been his ticket. We all play sports, right? I played baseball, I played football a little bit, and I was pretty good at baseball. But I reached a point where I said,

okay, Eddie, you're six foot six. There's not too many six foot six third baseman. Yes. My arm is hurting from pitching. I need to play basketball. Right. And I don't know if Zion ever reached that point of having to make the decision. I think automatically he played basketball.

And to me, man, I just don't think mentally he's in tune with what it takes to stay on the floor as a basketball player. But what's funny about you laying that out though, is that he came into the league as one of the best assets for the number one pick that we probably had this century. We, we interviewed David Griffin and Alvin Gentry the night they got that pick. Like we were there at the draft lottery. Those guys were as happy as could be.

And it might end up like it already cost Alvin Gentry his job. And it might cost David Griffin his job. So they were ecstatic about it at the time, but now they might lose their job as a result of him. Gentry already did. The one thing I've, I've learned a couple of things, I guess, following sports and trying to come up with things to say and studying stuff. If the guy doesn't want it,

there's not a lot else you can do. And I think you could say that if you're a parent and you have a kid that's good at a certain sport, you can't force the kid to be awesome at the sport. At some point, they're going to have to give a shit. And he says all the right things sometimes, but it just doesn't seem like he gets it. And now he's headed toward his mid-20s. Yeah. And at some point, it's either going to happen or it's not up here.

And it just doesn't seem like it's there. And I'll tell the story real quick. And I've point it's either going to happen or it's not up here and it just doesn't seem like it's there. And I tell this story real quick and I've said it on our show. I once had this lady traveled all the way from Wyoming with her kid. And that's when I had a training academy. Yeah. The kid she shows up kid is six foot six. I mean ripped. 14. 14 years old and she says he's's gonna be a great basketball player.

He's gonna grow. His dad was 6'10 and he's gonna grow. So I worked the kid out. He takes 25 jumpers in close, 10 feet around the rim, May 1. Okay, I moved him out a little bit, five air balls. And so I sit him down on the side and I said, what do you like to do?

He started talking about all the things he likes to do, and he started talking about his instruments, and he likes to play in the band and all of that, and not one time did he mention basketball. I looked at the mother, I went over, I said, Miss, I'm going to give you your money back. I charged her like a grand. I said, I'm going to give you your money back.

I am telling you, if you don't want to lose your kid, you need to let him be in the band. I am telling you, he does not want to play basketball. She started crying. I mean, literally. Because she knew deep down. I had to grab this lady. She was like, distraught. I told her.

Then I went over there, took over to him and I said, son, what do you like to do? Band. To me, it reminds me of Zion. Like he was made to play basketball. They want him to play basketball. And I just wonder at times, does he really like want to play at a high level? And then I've said that about numerous guys. It's not just Zion.

Oh yeah. Well, that contrasts that to your Durant story. Yeah. Durant story. Yeah. Durant probably ever since he could hit the 10 foot rim with the ball, he's probably been shooting jumpers for three, four or five hours a day. So yeah, that's the thing. And I actually think Tatum has this. I think Tatum and Brown has it too.

And maybe it's a good thing that they, you know, they're a little competitive in a good way with each other, but I think they, they come in every year, like this year, Jalen got too big, but at least there was intent behind it. Right. He's like, I need to, I need to survive the nine months. Tatum always adds to a few after year. I know I want Jalen to lose a little. Yeah, that was my issue with like honestly with Jamal Murray. It's like, did he get paid? Did he win the championship and then take his foot off the gas? Like to the credit of Jason Brown to the credit of Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum, like those guys have busted their rear ends.

Like Jaylen Brown, like again, you said he got maybe too big but the intention was good. So Jaylen Brown like wins a championship. He gets paid. Like the year before Jaylen Brown got paid. He didn't say I get paid and you know, I'm just now like Jalen Brown got the biggest contract in NBA history and then came back and had the best season of his career One of five yes, I'm gonna be like that's credit to guys that do that because I don't think everybody can you can argue That's what maybe forced Jamal to not be in shape because he had not gotten paid yet

So this is a bigger issue with the league than I think people realize. Guys that have an extension coming and they're afraid to get hurt so they stop working out all during the summer. There's a list of things like that. And it messes them up, Bill. I think it just happened to Trey Murphy. I think he started out the season shitty and now he looks like Trey Murphy again.

And I don't think Devin would ever admit it, but the way that he changed his game this summer was a positive for the Olympic team. But I think that mentality kind of cut down that killer instinct that he had for a short period of time and thinking that, okay, I'm gonna try this on the Suns, too. I'm gonna, like, I won't take a shot in the first five minutes, and, you know, I'll turn it on when I can.

And I think it kind of got him in that situation. And lately he's gotten back to Devon, you know, being ultra aggressive. Like a lot of times they tell you, like Larry Brown used to always say, you F with the game, it's gonna F with you. So, and that's, I agree with Eddie's point. I think that's a really good point

that he carried that mindset that he had all summer into the season and it affected his game Can somebody tell me somebody that actually benefited from the Olympics this year? Because I think everybody here comes the anti-patriot. Yeah You play for your country I Do think if I could do if I was the czar of our Olympic basketball program I would go 25 and under for the team. So, yeah, so would I. And we'll get our butt kicked every year.

I don't know if we would. You almost got your butt kicked this year with the, you know, the legends play. Exactly. And Jokic almost beat you by yourself. I want like people like Amen Thompson on our 2020 Olympic team, like let's give them the experience, put them on that stage, and maybe have like one or two people over 25 as like the adults. I would love to see that, Bill.

I would be so much more excited. Bill, I would love to see it. I like cheering for the underdog. Yeah, because we need to be underdogs again. That's exactly what it's gonna be. Which is why I cheered for Serbia. Yeah, why do you even acknowledge that? Just get a dual passport and move out of here.

You should get run out of Boston. Guys, thank you for all the time, this was great. Now I'll feel better when I pop on your show, I don't know where, when I'm driving around and I just text Justin. Hold it, you never asked. It wasn't like we turned you down. No, no, we're not. We did last week, Eddie, he asked us last week, you said no. You never asked. It wasn't like we turned you down. I know.

Well, you did last week, Eddie. He asked us last week. No, but there was a reason you guys could do last week. I was traveling. I know. No, this was fun. I had a great time. I can listen to you guys every, what is it, four to seven? Yeah, four to seven Eastern time, Monday through Friday. And I think this is the longest we ever talk to each other for free. Typically, we just talk to each other.

No way I talk to him for free. Trust me, Bill. So you're good. Trust me on that. All right. Safe travels. Great to see you guys. Thanks for coming up. All right. Okay. Take care. All right. That's it for the pod. Thanks to JT and Eddie. Thanks to Kyle and Sarudy and Gahal. As always, don't forget, you can watch the clips and videos from this podcast. On the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch before sunrise on the Ringer movies, YouTube channel.

The latest rewatchable is we did. I will see you on Sunday. We're not going live because there's no football game, but Cousins Al and I are gonna have a little Super Bowl props extravaganza. So that's coming on Sunday. Maybe we'll do some basketball too. We will see.

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