The Bill Simmons Podcast - Andy Reid’s Moment, TV’s Greatest Year (1994), and Billy Bob Thornton Stops By | With Kyle Brandt and Alan Sepinwall

Episode Date: September 25, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by NFL Network's Kyle Brandt to discuss some NFL week 4 story lines, including a meaningful Patriots-Bills matchup, Mitchell Trubisky coming off a win, Daniel Jones, and more (4:00). Then Bill talks with Rolling Stone's Alan Sepinwall about the 25th anniversary of an all-time year for TV: 1994 (47:40). Finally, Bill sits down with Academy Award–winning actor Billy Bob Thornton to discuss some of his films, including 'Sling Blade,' 'Monster's Ball,' 'Friday Night Lights,' 'Bad Santa,' 'Blood in Blood Out,' and more. They also talk directing, hosting 'SNL,' Amazon's 'Goliath,' MLB, and more (1:23:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Check out the hottest take. One last thing. Cousin Sal and I, we did, um, an auction for Jimmy Kimmel lives, charity drive, raising money to fight ALS because our friend, John Carlin, who we worked with at Jimmy Kimmel live was unfortunately afflicted with ALS. We love John Carlin. We are trying to raise money and awareness for it. So we did a charity auction where somebody could watch a Sunday night football game with us and then appear on Guest Aligns and Guest Aligns against me and Sal. And there's two days left. The auction expires on September 26th at 4.04 Eastern time. And the price for the auction right now is really high.

It is over $50,000, which is insane. But we are so happy because we love John Carlin and this is great. So anyway, if you want in and there's still exactly two days left where you can go in. Just go to charitybuzz.com, search for me and Sal, and you'll find it. So thanks to everybody who bid so far. We're going to try to figure out

how to maximize this because this is really awesome that people have been into this. So anyway, we have an action-packed podcast for you coming up. Kyle Brandt from the NFL Network is going to just talk about everything we've learned through the first three weeks.

Alan Sepinwall and I are going to talk about the iconic 1994-95 TV season, 25th anniversary of that. And then Billy Bob Thornton, first time ever on the BS Podcast. He's coming up at the tail end. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. Our friend Kyle Brandt is on the line. He is on Good Morning Football on the NFL Network,

as well as a whole bunch of things. More importantly, he's blowing up. There was a giant profile in The Athletic written by Jeff Perlman about him, and now there's nowhere else to go but down. I'm sorry. It's an estate profile, Bill. It's one of those things that you tell your grandkids about. Did you read that thing?

It was like 20,000 words. Perlman went nuts. I know. You know when I think something's long that it was definitely long. I devoured it though. I thought it was great. And I learned a lot.

And now I predict the backlash. The backlash has to come after a profile like that. You know, it's coming already. Why is this guy, some loser from the real world in soap operas, deserve this kind of profile?

And it's funny because Promo even reached out to my parents. Yeah. And he talked to my father, Bob Brandt, who Bob Brandt probably went on for like two hours about me. And he used one quote from my dad on the whole thing. And it was,

Kyle was a douchebag on the real world. Thanks, Dad. You couldn't talk about me as a kid playing Pop Warner. That was the only quote he used from my dad. Terrible. See, I thought you were a douchebag because you went to Princeton. I didn't realize there was a whole

real-world douchebag angle on this. I don't know. Yeah, you know, I've heard that you've had takes on Princeton, Bill. That goes back years, that you're like a Princeton douchebag deal. That's one of the things, that's a hill that you'll die on, right?

Well, so here's what happened. What happened? One of my good friends now went to Princeton, and I've kind of softened on it. And I think it's all leading to my daughter going there to play soccer, which would be the ultimate things coming around and backfiring on me. You know what, if she needs a letter to get her in, which I'm guessing coming from you, she probably will,

I'll write it for you. Yeah, she definitely will. Football season, what are you most excited about right now through three weeks? You know what's really cool? This is Patriots-Bills week that matters. Are you in any way nervous about the Buffalo Bills right now? 3-0. Oh, I think it's beyond any way.

I'm legit nervous about this game because, you know, their defense is excellent. You have the Pats who for some reason cannot get Sonny Michel going at all, who have Edelman who I thought looked legit hurt on Sunday and I'm sure they'll keep it secret the whole week whether he's going to play or not. And then an hour before the game, they'll be like, hey, Philip Dorsett

is starting. Josh Gordon is playing with a dislocated finger. They don't really have the tight end. And if he doesn't have Edelman, I do worry about the security blanket element against that defense. And they're freaking loaded on that end. I think it's a scary game.

It gets even worse. It gets worse because now James Devlin is hurt too. Right. When Edelman and Devlin, who are the toughest males Patriots, white guys are getting hurt, that's like the cat's heads are falling off. Like, I'm nervous, too.

And yet, I look this up, and this is the stat that gets thrown around. The last time that the Bills beat Brady, like, in a real game. The Bills start to get mad at me online because I say it's been eight years. They'll be like, well, we beat them when Brady played a half, and we beat Jacoby Brissett once. But, like, fuck all that. The last time they beat Brady in a real game that mattered, it was Brian Fitzpatrick going to Stevie Johnson.

It was 2011. And I looked this up in 2011, last time the bills beat the pass. It was like, um, fast five was in the theaters. Wow. Um, fast five. And then the thing that everyone was doing, like it was hot in the streets when the bills last beat the Patriots,

people were planking. Do you remember planking? Yeah. You would lie down flat on a table. Dwight Howard was way into planking. I remember that was really funny on SportsCenter at the time. That's how long it's been. So we can all be worried about a fullback and a wide receiver

who are hurt, but it's still been since planking since they beat them. That's a long time. And then there was that other one when Bledsoe went there. And I think I that other one when Bledsoe went there. And I think I have a column deep in my 2003 archives about Black Sunday because the Red Sox season they had a bad loss the same day as

the Pats got blanked in Buffalo because Laura Malloy went there and it turned out it was like, oh my God, this is going to end. And then of course, I don't think they might not have lost again. I can't even remember. No, 31 to nothing though. That's the lawyer Malloy game. And Belichick like poured his heart out about like,

this is the hardest decision I've ever had to make is cutting lawyer. And he still works so hard, but we have no choice. And then it was like the biggest ass whooping of the Brady regime, I think. Well, you bring up a key point with this Patriot season that the white guys are really letting them down. Gunner, the punt returner, he ruined the no touchdown streak.

He fumbles in front of his own end zone, and it rolls into the end zone. They recover it. So long, touchdown streak. I honestly thought Belichick was going to break out like a cane. Like what wrestler? The wrestlers that use the canes and just start cane beating people?

Just start beating with a cane. Slick the manager had a cane. Just start cane whipping Gunner and then caught him right on the spot. But they didn't cut him yet. It's the upset of the year that they didn't cut a punt returner who fumbled and cost him a touchdown.

And then the other white guy, Jared Stidham, cost him the other one on the pick six. I was really disappointed because I get as excited as the next guy about someone named Gunner. The little white guy. I really do think that Belichick has a garden outside his house where he grows these little white guys.

Gunner was the next crop. He was the crop of the 2019. You can't be having fumbles. You got to be fundamentally sound, Gunner. I know. Braxton Berrios last year who ended up on the Jets somehow. But yeah, I'm scared of this game

and I think it's fun that at least, you know, you can talk yourself into the case for the Bills, but at the very least, they really do have a great defense. And this isn't the fraudulent 3-0 thing that, you know, I'm suspicious of Detroit. They're 2-0-1.

Well, the Bills have a great defense, but like, isn't this right now like the greatest Patriots defense like of your lifetime? Like with respect to McGinnis and Bruschi and Rodney and all that? Yeah. It's been four games

since they've even given up a touchdown. So do you really think that like, I know the Bills play D, but is babyface Josh Allen going to be the one who hangs three touchdowns on this defense? I just don't see it. Well, and that's the thing. That's what I'm most excited for this game because it's a defense dick-swinging duel.

Yeah, I know. And I actually think the advantage is with the Pats defense because especially if Singletary doesn't play Frank Gore not making a lot of people miss these days you know he'll go into people maybe get that extra yard and fall down but

it's going to be really hard for them to run the ball and then the secondary is the best secondary they've ever had I even think it's better than the 0-3 secondary I went back and was comparing the names and the best secondary they've ever had. I even think it's better than the O3 secondary. I went back and was comparing the names, and the O3 secondary was loaded. It was Harrison's first year,

but this secondary, I think, is just deeper and better. And Allen, you know, two, three times a game, will put it up for grabs. He'll be like, here. He makes a lot of mistakes. Yeah, so this could be one of those wild defense special teams, whatever games. But when you think about where the Pats were two weeks ago,

where it was just overloaded with luxuries on offense, and now it's already dwindled. And the league seems wide open. I think the last time we talked, I had to ask the question, because this was like a month ago. And I asked you, I'm like, is Antonio Brown Tyson's own? And you were like, yeah, of course he is. And that was back when it was just like, just about like the helmet and the feet.

Right. And like that a lot has changed then. And then up to, I mean, it's still fluid. Like now I hear that he's going back to college or something like that, which is like, I think he's trying to be accountable or maybe like to go back to his roots. But like, there's nothing less accountable than taking online college classes. It's actually the least accountable thing you can do. And can you imagine like a guy who wouldn't show up to practice for millions of dollars is going to show up to like an 815 US lit class?

Yeah. It's ridiculous, dude. I, it was one of the most bizarre 13-day stretches in Patriots history, which has been a really bizarre franchise, so that's saying something. You know,

somebody sent me the clip of Vontaze Burfecht just knocking him out in that playoff game, which

also was a crazy play because it swung the game and allowed Pittsburgh, they might not have even beaten the Bengals in that game. I totally kind of forgotten how impactful that was. That was a big moment for everybody. If you remember that moment, first of all, A.J. McCarron was going to win a playoff game for the Bengals against the Steelers.

He had it. Joey Porter ran on the field as a coach and got flagged. And my favorite epilogue of that game is after AB was nearly decapitated by Burfecht, Pac-Man came out and accused AB of faking that he had a concussion. His quote was so good. He said, he faked it so good he deserves a Grammy. Not an Emmy. He said a Grammy.

Wow. That's an exact quote. Like, that was like some, there needs to be a 30 for 30 on that playoff game alone, which I think was, was AJ McCarron versus Roethlisberger. It was a classic. Well, maybe he's never been the same since that. I had a couple, couple of readers slash listeners theorizing that to me. And it was one of the worst hits people, somebody's taken in the last 15 years. And it was at a point when we really knew a lot about concussion stuff, you know. And they were really trying to clean up the over-the-middle stuff.

And he just goes out of his way to clock them. And you just see how erratic his behavior's been this year. And I go back to that, plus whatever else has happened to him over the years. It is dark. It's like you see this and you're like, are we going to be here like two, three years from now? And there's going to be this really somber announcement and that this and this has happened. It's like, you know, those people on like wacky morning radio shows do like their celebrity death

pools. Like they would do now like an NFL celebrity CTE pool. And it would be a terrible segment. And like, I think AB may be part of it. I hope he's not, but like how else could you possibly explain a guy who for years was just hard worker, central Michigan, late round pick, and then just is completely,

completely batshit. Yeah. It's very odd, man. And I think batshit is the, unfortunately the right word for him because all of his behavior really since, you know,

the tail end of last season has been five levels beyond erratic. And, you know, even, even last week to, to send those texts when there's such a giant microscope on him, you know, and, and he went to the Pats and whatever had happened to him before that, at least with the Pats, nothing had happened. And all you have to do is just not do anything for three weeks. Like just, you couldn't do it. I think Schrager had the thing, like he turned like 40 million bucks into like a couple hundred grand. Like, even if you were like, even if you're a complete maniac and you're an asshole, like you would not think you'd at least be driven by the money, but he wasn't that either. And I would look at you as like someone who's a connoisseur of all things

Patriots and has been for decades. Is there anything weirder than there was that one game that Antonio Brown was a Patriot against the Dolphins and he was really good? Like that's a weird chapter. No, the weirdest moment in Patriots history was when the, the convict who was on furlough or whatever, John Henderson, when he came in and snow plowed the field during the blizzard so that,

uh, John Smith could kick the game winning field going against Miami. If that, if that happened in 2019, that would have been a 72 hour story of people just going nuts about it. Um, AB wearing number 17 and scoring against the Dolphins team. That's going to go on 16 for one game only and hugging Brady

and everything. Like you said, the strangest two-week period I've seen in years. So I know Mahomes has been a big guy in your show. Your buddy Schrager has been on this since he got his first start. Yep. I said on my podcast on Sunday night

that he's the best quarterback I've ever seen. He's not the greatest. I think Brady is the greatest. But just talking about from pure talent, wow factor, ability to make any play, how freaking scary he is, how these

performances he's having are just bouncing off us now where he's four touchdowns in a quarter. He's got no touchdowns through the first quarter. We know he's going to end up with three. He loses his number one receiver. It just doesn't matter. He makes the other guys better.

He's down to, you know, broken down Shady McCoy and two backups that frankly just probably shouldn't even be playing. And it just doesn't matter. He's still going to score. Do you think he is the most talented quarterback you've ever seen? two backups that frankly just probably shouldn't even be playing. And it just doesn't matter. He's still going to score is, do you think he is the most talented quarterback you've ever seen? I remember I was,

I thought that about Rogers during the MVP years, cause he would make like the holy shit throws. Yeah. And, but my homes, I do. And like, I don't know about you. Like I,

now that I'm seeing him enough, he's reminding me a lot of Steph Curry. Yeah. It's like kind of doubted in college, too small, whatever, whatever. And now he does the most ridiculous things and does it so casually.

And like losing Tyree kill is like when the warriors are there just, Oh, well we lost clay. Like, who cares? We're still going to score 130 points and like, no one gives a shit. So I think he is because the arm is ridiculous and

all he does but like he also he's one of those guys who like i feel like he doesn't even look like he's sweating during the game he always looks so calm like he's got this poker face that drives me crazy and if i was a chiefs hater it would drive me nuts and i think that the true barometer is last weekend or actually two weekends a or week two, I played against Mahomes in fantasy. And, like, you sit there, and you just white-knuckle it the whole time, because, like you said, first quarter, oh, whatever, I'm going to get off easy. And then there's this barrage of

touchdowns in, like, five seconds, and you're like, my whole week is lost, I'm down 70 points, and all I have left is Adrian Peterson and Amari Cooper. It's so defeating. Yeah. I've never seen anything like it. I did a whole riff last year in the pod about comparing him to Curry. Not

from a ceiling standpoint. Oh, that's true? No, no, no. This is different. About the stuff he was doing at quarterback was kind of changing what I thought was possible at that position. A lot like what with Curry when he really started turning the heat

check into an everyday event that stretched the offense and did all these other things. And people are going, wow, this actually might change how basketball is going to be played. And you could feel it last year with that. And I remember thinking that and talking about it. The thing that's happening this year that I think is along the lines of where you're going with Curry is Curry's had that six-year stretch where he's just been hugely impactful, important, in the mix every year, and there's nobody like him. I think we're going to see that with Mahomes. Right now, he's even odds to win the MVP. I looked at that. I thought he was going to see that with Mahomes. Right now, he's even odds to win the MVP. I looked at that. I thought he was going to be minus 300 by now.

I don't see any scenario where if he plays all 16 games, he's not going to win the MVP. There might be a Lamar Jackson case. I still kind of want to see it with Lamar Jackson for 16 games as these defenses look at him and figure it out. But with Mahomes, I really think 60 touchdowns is possible. I don't know if it'll happen, but it's possible, right? I know.

And I look at this, and we had this conversation the other day I thought was interesting. And again, back to the Patriots. So if they win the AFC every year, I would ask you that if you look at Mahomes and Lamar, and it reminds me, there's a ridiculous little

part in the movie, The Last Boy Scout, when Bruce Willis finds his best friend to sleep with his wife, and he goes up and he goes, head or gut? Head or gut. Like, they have a code, like, if you do something bad, I'll either punch you in the head or in the gut. Yeah. So, head or gut, as a Patriots fan, in the AFC Championship game, let's say it's in Foxborough, would you rather see Lamar and all that comes with it, meaning John Harbaugh and the

defense and everything, or would you rather see Mahomes? You had to pick one. A thousand million percent would rather see Baltimore. I don't... Casey, I think, is the only one that could go into New England and it wouldn't totally matter. You clout Andy Reid, though. Come on.

That's Andy Reid's team. I was going to bring that up. That's the saving grace is Andy Reid. But. Come on. That's Andy Reid coached him. I was going to bring that up. That's the saving grace is Andy Reid. But on the other hand, the 21st century has been all about we write somebody off and do the whole thing where we think something's never going to happen and then

it gets flipped on us. And we've seen that the Red Sox, the Cubs, the Saints, on and on and on. There's been 20 examples. And Andy Reid's one of the last ones left. Andy Reid not only has never won a Super Bowl, he's only made one. But he's been in the mix every year.

It's kind of impossible. He's had probably, what, 14 teams that were in the mix and only kind of came through once. So, you know, it sounds silly. You need to hire Theo Epstein as their GM, I think is what you're saying. I think that needs to happen. And listen, I've read your stuff for years

about Andrew Reid. I think it's right. Like, you find a way to mess it up with the only exception being, like, he has never had a motherfucker like Mahomes. Like, never. And he had him last year, and in the second half of that AFC title motherfucker like Mahomes. Never. And he had him last year,

and in the second half of that AFC title game, Mahomes completely figured out the picture. It's like he hacked the system. He needed one more possession to beat him, and he didn't get it. Andy Reid's never had this kind of guy. Who do you have as the third best team right now? In the whole NFL or AFC?

Yeah, whole NFL. I'll tell you who fascinates me. In the team right now that I think is really scary is the Packers. And I'll tell you why. They, obviously, Rodgers and Goffler didn't do any preseason stuff. Like, this last month has been their preseason. Like, they are just figuring it out. And it's like, everyone computers, I think this is the term,

computers to be like in DOS mode, like DOS, whatever, just basic. The Packers' offense is still in DOS mode, or I don't know if you're in a Marvel guy build, but they're like baby Groot, like when Groot hasn't grown up yet and can barely talk and doesn't have his powers, and they're still winning. Someone should have beaten the Packers

a couple times in these games while Aaron Rodgers is figuring out his offense, because he's going to. And the second they get there and finish this off and he grows into big group, like, they're going to start really messing people up. Because Aaron Rodgers with the defense is sort of that, like, happy learned how to putt. Like, you don't want Aaron Rodgers to have this great defense all of a sudden. So they're 3-0, and I think they're still, like, they're still in utero on their offense and they're still undefeated. I think it's the Packers. Well,

you also didn't mention it's probably the best offensive line he's had since the beginning of the decade, right? He hasn't been touched. Yeah, him bragging about

not getting touched was really, that was a move. He's like, I've never been so clean after a game before. I didn't know if it was going to be some sort of tie-in

because they're everywhere now but I think it was actually an authentic thing I don't even have to wash my uniform and that's bad it's the equivalent of if I'm in Vegas and I'm just crushing the dealer for two hours and then we take a break and I look at him and go

God, I'm just winning so much money I can't believe how well I'm doing I'm just killing this dealer. I haven't even been to the ATM yet. Oh, my God. This winning is just going to go on and on. I do worry that he might have jinxed himself, but I'm with you. And he, I think, is the secret most fascinating character of this season

because he has finally a defense. He has, I think, a pretty good running back. He has an offensive line that can block for him. I really like Scantling. I think he's terrifying. It always seems like he can just run by anybody and get open, but he also has Adams

obviously. The old reliable Jimmy Graham. He has enough weapons that it does feel like if he has the vintage Aaron Rodgers season, that should be the best NFC team. My question is, I just haven't loved how he looked. I don't think he's looked that sharp. He hasn't.

It's like he's learning. I feel like this week, this weekend, his next game is like his season opener. He did his preseason games, and he's in. I love that you mentioned Marquez Valdez-Scantling. He's awesome. That guy came on our show and was such a trip, like huge personality. He stopped the interview in the middle of the interview, like unprompted,

and said, is this my camera right here? And he looked at it and he said, I just had to get this out of your mind here. Ladies, I'm talking to you right now. Video gaming is not a hobby. It's a lifestyle. Thank you. And then he went on with the interview. Like, he is completely eccentric, all personality.

And obviously, Rodgers loves him. Who does Marquez Valdez Scantling, first team all name, first team all hyphen. He's really good, too. It seems like they're kind of saving him. Because it's like once a quarter feels like he could just run a straight line He's really good too. It seems like they're kind of saving him. You know what you think? Because once a quarter feels like he could just run a straight line and run by everybody. And I feel the same way about Hardman on the Chiefs.

He had that one long touchdown last Sunday. Nicole Hardman. I think he's in Andy's back pocket a little bit. Because that guy, if he's running a straight line. Yeah, if he's running a straight line, he's running by everybody. But I don't think they totally want everybody to know about him yet. They used him once in the Baltimore game and it worked. Yeah, that's like the,

why doesn't LeBron just dunk it every time down the court line of thinking? Why can't he just do that every time? Why don't the Browns just throw a slant to Odell Beckham literally every time and have him go for an ADR touchdown? You're right, there's certain guys where you're like, why don't you just try it on first, second, and third down because it'll definitely work one, and then you'll have a touchdown. It's frustrating.

Yeah. The problem for the Patriots is I'm not sure they have a back pocket thing right now. There's, you know, from a running back standpoint, at some point they're going to have to figure out the fact that they can't throw to him and he just hasn't been elusive at all. Whether it's the blocking, let him down, there's been so much offensive line flux, stuff like that. They're just better when Burkhead's in the game

because of his ability to run and catch. Maybe he's going to be the back pocket guy as the year goes along. He's available in everybody's fantasy league, FYI. But yeah, the back pocket guys, that's like an interesting theme because I think for Dallas, it's Gallup. I know he's hurt right now, but when he comes back, that second guy who can just beat people down the field.

But it does seem like we have more good receivers, good young receivers than we've had in a while. Even yesterday, watching that terrible Bears-Redskins game that I know you enjoyed. Oh my God. The rookie on Washington is really good. I kind of can't believe

he's not in the Patriots. Yeah, he's really good. And he's playing with Case Keenum. And it's like, he's excellent. Even on the other side, Allen Robinson is excellent catching the ball from Trubisky.

Yeah. That's a tough watch. As an outsider, I grew up in Chicago. Do you have any, not in fear, like do you have any respect for Trubisky right now? Like, how do you guys view him if you're not from Chicago? Cause it's, it's a tough, it's tough. I'm glad you brought this up and it's a good time to take a quick break. Hey, a good outfit starts with the basics.

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and enter promo code Simmons. Check it out, though. It's good stuff. All right. Your Mitch Trubisky question. I was enter promo code Simmons. Check it out, though. It's good stuff. All right. Your Mitch Trubisky question. I was thinking about this yesterday. What do you got? The worst possible situation for him was what happened Monday night

against the Redskins, where the defense is just creating all these chances. He throws three TDs. The Redskins kind of give up in the first half. And everybody's like, oh, Trubisky, here he comes. And it's like, no, he's not coming anywhere. The Vikings defense is going to eat him alive. I'm sorry.

I just don't see it. I am a blink test guy with QBs. And I don't see it. I don't think he's accurate. I don't think he knows what to do if two seconds after what he thought was going to happen didn't happen. He has no plan B.

And he just, I think he panics. And he'll panic five times a game. He'll just freak out and do something dumb. And there's so much scar tissue with Bears fans with quarterbacks. And I got a text in the middle of the game from one of my friends

who I won't name. And I think he texted me. He goes, he's like, Trubisky is like if Cutler was a wimp instead of an asshole.

And he didn't actually say wimp, but he said a worse word. And I'm like, I know what you mean. Yeah. First person experience. I've hung out with Trubisky a couple times at events. I did, like, an interview with him to start the season.

And the takeaway you have when you talk to him, I don't know if it's good or not, but my takeaway is, like, he's extremely nice. Like, he's very, very cordial and outgoing and smiley. And, like, my question is just, like, I know he's very talented and he probably works really hard, but, like, does he is just like, I know he's very talented and he probably works really hard, but like, does he have like

the motherfucker in him? Does he have any dog in him? I just don't know. Like, like Aaron Rodgers will kill a man and Brady will kill a man and like Breeze

in his own way and even like Russell Wilson in this weird roundabout like cuddly way will like be completely ruthless. And like, Trubisky's just a very nice guy

and I just don't know if I'm down six with two minutes left and we're playing the Vikings or the Packers or the Patriots. I don't know. Is he going to be like, listen, you guys, I got this. Now shut up and do what I say. I don't know if he is. I don't know. Yeah, Wilson will kill somebody with a bottle of rosé.

Kill rosé with truffles. Rodgers would carefully plan their murder and there would be no trace no trace to them yeah if he

went down the line of which quarterbacks are actual killers but then how would they actually kill people Brady would just there would be no traces

it would be a TB12 accident where he'd be like Dexter completely I think one of the most interesting killers would be, I think Roethlisberger would use like a blunt object,

like a scuba tank or a wrench. He'd just get caught. Yeah, he'd get caught within a day. People would know. He probably would get caught. Yeah. Mahomes, I agree with you. I think he's a motherfucker.

And I think he's one of those that you don't realize he's killed four people until he tells you at 2.30 in the morning after a few drinks. Sure. I've killed four people. What? You? By the way, I killed a man. Yeah. And then I killed his friend and both his parents. Really? You? Like the crazy haircut and the weird voice? Yep.

Why do you think I talk like this? This is my real voice. You're right. What a totally appropriate conversation. Jared Goff, not a killer. I don't see it with him. And he's just a shadow looming over this Rams season. I've been riding the Rams every week. They've covered every week. I've really enjoyed it.

They covered last week, I think, despite Jared Goff to a large degree. Fortunately for them, Freddy Kitchens was on the other end and some other dumb stuff happened. But if you gave Truth Serum to Sean McVay and you were like, hey, dude, if you had to do it again, maybe you wouldn't give that giant extension to Goff. Maybe you would have wanted to watch a few weeks first.

Do you think he says yes or no? Yeah, man, I wouldn't. And before that, I wouldn't give the one to Gurley either because we did that too. Right. Well, the Gurley one, I can't tell if that was bad luck or just medical negligence on the Rams part that they didn't know his knee was that bad.

Because in a vacuum, the contract makes a ton of sense when they gave it to him. And he was, in the first eight, nine weeks of the year last year, he was the best player in the league. I know, he was fantastic. But if it's arthritis, gave it to him. And he was in the first eight, nine weeks of the year last year, he was the best player in the league, but I know it was fantastic. But if it's arthritis, you have to know. Yeah.

I mean, you know, these things these days, you also know that he's a running back. Who's had like a bunch of knee issues and you're going to pay him the biggest contract ever. I mean, it's crazy.

I, I do think though the truth serum to, to McVay, I would love to ask him like, Sean, just be honest. Like, wouldn't you were like,

wouldn't you rather have Baker Mayfield than Jared Goff? Wouldn't you rather have Deshaun Watson? Goff's a good guy and everything, but I do. But people get mad now if you say that he's a passenger on the McVeigh train. I don't know. I think he completely is bad. I have not felt like he is improving as the spot. There was a moment in that Saints championship game when it felt like he kind improving as the spot. There was a moment in that Saints championship game

when it felt like he kind of came of age. Yeah. And we were headed to a different level with him. And all of that progress has gone backwards, unfortunately. It's tough to make a new impression, too. Like, it wasn't even just, you might understand this living in California, but it wasn't even just that first Jeff Fisher season,

which, whatever, Jeff Fisher's fault. I remember the first time the Rams drafted Jared Goff and I was driving up the 405 and it was, there was a big billboard to like sell tickets. And it was some like giant font that was just like, feel the power or something. And it was like, Jared Goff's like halfway open mouth. And I was like, God, I don't, I don't feel the power at all. It does not make me want to buy tickets. And when they opened the stadium next year, I don't feel the power at all. That does not make me want to buy tickets. And when they open the stadium next year, I don't feel the power.

I don't. Are you buying or selling Baker Mayfield stock right now? I'm holding on to it. I bought it all in the offseason. I'm holding on to it. I think there's going to be some major changes with Kitchens and the way they call plays and everything. But, like, it's terrible.

I mean, I don't know if you saw this. Freddie Kitchens called a draw play on fourth and nine. What do you mean? Of course I saw it. I watched it with a nephew, Kyle. We were like, wait, it's, did they know it was fourth down? I just assumed they didn't realize it was fourth down that they thought it was third down or something. Maybe it was third down or they got a fifth down. And then the worst part is afterwards, Freddie Kitchens afterwards was like,

yeah, that was the play I wanted. It's like, dude, what are you talking about? The only reason you're the coach, Because afterwards, Freddie Kishin's after is like, yeah, that's the play I wanted. It's like, dude, what are you talking about? The only reason you're the coach, the only reason is not because you have any experience or you're great with personalities or you can manage no doubt. The only reason is to play call. That's it. That's the one job you have. You call a draw play on fourth and nine. It's like the worst call I've ever seen.

It was like Marty Morningwig deciding to kick off in overtime. It was like it was that bad. Yeah, it was bad. And they're in a tough spot. I was very dubious of them before the season because of the coaching. Because I just don't trust bad coaches. And there was no evidence he was a good coach. Now we have evidence that he actually might be a bad coach.

But now you throw in how sloppy they've been from a penalty, all the discipline standpoint. And then on top of that, just a complete inability to block. That's why I'm also holding on to Baker Stock because it just feels like he's running for his life. I know. You look at Indianapolis where Jacoby Brissett, if you just flip those guys and you put Baker in Indianapolis

with the line that they have, his life would be so much easier. And you put Jacoby Brursette running for his life. That would be, I'm surprised their offensive line is that bad. The other one that surprised me is I really thought Denver's defense was going to be pretty good. That was terrible. Yeah.

How do you not have a pass rush with Miller and Chubb? I don't understand that. I saw that stat that like they, they don't have any turnovers, any takeaways, and zero sacks through three games. And they have Hans and Franz as defensive end, and then Vic Fangio, I guess getting back to Freddie Kitchens,

the only reason Vic Fangio is there is because he can crush people with defense. And they're like, oh, we did it with Mack, he can do it. It's an actually terrible, terrible embarrassment. That's a bad, bad defense and a bad team. Which, out of the three enigmatic enigmas, Seattle 2-1, the Chargers 1-2, and the Falcons 1-2, which any of those that you have hope for or are you writing off all three? Seattle I have hope for.

Okay. I still think, if I was to do my power rankings, I have Russell Wilson as top five quarterback. I love Russ. Yeah. I still think Pete Carroll is a great coach. I think their defense is, I think Seattle will be fine. The Chargers thing is just so bad.

It's like no one, I don't know why no one, at least in what I work and like an NFL network talks about it, but like they have zero home field advantage and they haven't for years. Yeah. The joke that they played there, like their stadium, like I literally saw Butterbean fight there like 12 years ago and that's where they play. So the Chargers are not. The Falcons just lost their best safety to injury. They're probably screwed too, which is

really like, of all the years, Drew Brees is hurt. Cam Newton is broken. Jameis is Jameis. This is the year that Atlanta's just cruised to this casual 12-4 record, and they're just completely scraping. So I'm out on them too.

The team that I find very intriguing that has a really weird record is two. Oh, and one, like, is it, do we give any love to the lions or are they the lions? No, no,

no, we don't. Chargers. I beat the Eagles. No, no chargers. That chargers game was, was the number Eagles. No. No. Chargers, that Chargers game was the number one, oh my God, we gave that game away in nine different ways game.

That was such a bad loss for the Chargers. They had a punt or a kick in the field goal. It was just, and then Eckler fumbling at the one, and then Rivers just throws a terrible pick at the end. It was such a dumb win. And the next week they beat the Eagles. Which was also dumb because you have that block field goal. There was a block in the back

that I didn't even feel like was a block in the back. The Eagles would have the ball at the 20. And I don't know. That game was pretty... I felt like the Eagles gave that game away too. I mean, part of the job of a football team is to take advantage of the other team's mistakes. But it really did feel like... Of course it is.

Those two were just like flat out, here's the game, please take it. Wait, before we go, Danny Dimes? Yeah. I bought him, dude. Are you going with Danny Dimes? Are you cosigning that nickname?

I've actually graduated Danny Dimes. I just call him Dimes now. I have the nickname for the nickname. He's just Dimes. That's like people who call Robert De Niro Bob. He's just Dimes. He's like a Safdie Brothers movie character. He's Dimes.

Dimes just sounds good. I mean, Dimes I can see in Rounders. There's a Dimes. I call him Travis Coates. Travis Coates, I had to look this up, is the little kid from Old Yeller who was forced to go and gun down Yeller. Yeller, of course, in the case of Eli. Yeah.

And by the way, I watched the scene. You should do a rewatchable someday on Old Yeller. It is so, for the, what's aged the worst, it would just be the entire movie. There's a scene where his father sits him down and tries to explain to him why he needs to shotgun his dog. And it's so messed up, but I find myself laughing. Travis Coates, that's Daniel Jones. Cause he, he ended old yeller finally. And thank God. And they probably really shot the dog, right? They did that back then. Yeah. And they did 10 takes. They shot 10

dogs on this. No, I have no idea. Probably did. Travis Coates. That's the kid. Can you imagine Godfather now using the real horse's head in Jack Waltz's bed? What would happen on Twitter? People would be more upset about that than the homelessness crisis. It's like, oh, there's been a horse's head. Oh my God, we got to save the horse.

In the credits, it would say many animals were harmed in the making of this film. A lot. We tried to harm as many as we possibly could. So are you buying Danny Dimes, or do you feel like he's headed for the four-pick effort and start number two?

Four-pick effort. Yeah. I mean, the four-pick effort. Sam Donald in his first game with the Jets was incredible and lit it up and won on the road and everything like that. But the headline today from the New York Post here was the Obama picture with Hope

and it was Daniel Jones. Listen, I hope it works. The New York teams have sucked for years, but I don't know. There's no Saquon. The defense is terrible. I tend to think that he'll probably have a real big regression. Yeah, I love the fact that Wayne Gallman is the number one most added free agent in everybody's fantasy league this week.

I saw him there, and I was like, Wayne Gallman? What the fuck is going on? And I was like, oh, because Saquon's hurt. And somebody's going to spend like $37 on him in their fantasy auction and then realize they have Wayne Gallman. That's their team's fountain of Wayne. That'll be it. Wayne isman. Their team's fountain of Wayne. That'll be it. Wayne is back.

Enjoy the 11 runs for 27 yards and zero touchdowns this week from Wayne. Yeah. I, I just think it's more fun. I love the Giants jets. Just what a clusterfuck that is. It's so much fun. And I love the both fan bases.

Like the Giants at least have the Superbowls recently. And now they have this Eli Hall fame argument that they're kind of like, you know, 9-11 truthers about where they've just completely lost their minds.

They won't accept other arguments. But then Danny Dimes comes out of nowhere. So in a weird way, they're in the power seat again against the Jets. And the Jets fans are like, what the fuck just happened?

We had this great six months of the off season. We had the Jets. And the Jets fans are like, what the fuck just happened? We had this great six months of the offseason. We had the conch. And now that's it. We suck again. This blows. It's pretty bad. And then Darnold came out today

and he was like, we're going to go on a run. Like, I'm doing cardio now. I'm bouncing back. Like, he's all pissed off because I think Daniel Jones, or excuse me, Dimes, has taken all the run. Yeah. You know, the one one thing i didn't get to talk to you about it but when the mono story hit yeah there were so many takes and so many jokes but i found that the absolute worst

thing about that story was that like every single person i follow on twitter and sports media came out with like their mono story which is basically just their way of saying like this was my makeout story and like all of a sudden i'm reading about the jets quarterback and it's like andrew perloff came out with their mono story, which is basically just their way of saying, this was my make-out story. And all of a sudden, I'm reading about the Jets quarterback, and it's like, Andrew Perloff is saying, he got mono when he was in college. And Will Brinson got mono. I just don't want to hear about any mono stories

from any sports journalist, but everyone was running out to say that they got mono in college. Disgusting. So you think Twitter should have muted the word mono or something? I don't know how they would have. I remember before one of the Star Wars movies come out, I muted the word mono or something? I don't know how they would have.

I remember before one of the Star Wars movies come out, I muted the word Jedi. I should do that for mono because I just don't want to hear it. I'd spin the bottle on second base. Everyone couldn't wait

to say that they also got mono. Congrats on the make-up. I remember even before Twitter, remember that Jen Sturger, Brett Favre story that just went on

and on for years? I remember, I think it was before Twitter though, making jokes about if ESPN Insider could add a feature where all words

involving anything with that story was just omitted so I could just go to the website safely. And now, not knowing that Twitter would end up being like that

with 40 stories a week. But it would be nice to just not, you can mute people. I would love to mute storylines and running jokes. And even like the Trubisky Mariota, everybody had like some angle on that. Like, you know, although I do like calling him Trubisky 5-0. I do, you know, Mariota. Yeah, it's solid. Solid joke. it's a good one I'm proud of it

so Bill when are you when are you going to stop messing around and do a Boogie Nights Rewatchables that's going to be

the last one that's the last one because that's the ultimate I saw that I think for your birthday you're doing a Shawshank which is great but like

you got to do Boogie Nights that's the one the two big ones coming the rest you're doing a Shawshank, which is great. But you got to do Boogie Nights. That's the one. The two big ones coming the rest of the year are Shawshank and Godfather 2. Those are the cleanup hitters. Those are great. Yeah. I mean, the Shawshank Apex Mountain alone will have 50 candidates fighting for it.

That's a loaded, loaded episode. Will you ever take the Rewashables to the double deuce? Oh, it's happening. You have to tell me when you're in LA. We'll have you on one of them. Oh my God, I'd kill to be on one. Yeah, it's kind of in your wheelhouse, but I love it, man.

I'm worried about, I scream at my phone while I listen to them. I'm worried about Godfather 2 because I actually, one of the rules is it can't, the podcast can't be longer than the movie. Top Gun was really close. Yeah, I think Godfather 2 is almost three hours,

but I think the podcast might have to be longer than that because there's so much to break down. Plus, Brian Koppelman is going to be on that one. So he's got like... Oh, no. Break the rule then. I know that with the original heat rewashables, there was at least 25 minutes on Wingro needing to get it on alone.

Right. The rules are meant to be broken. It's fine. Which, that's going to be the 100th episode. Oh,

good. I'm there, man. We'll negotiate with your agents and try to figure out your rewatchables. Say hi to everybody. Good morning, football.

Always a pleasure to have you on. Bye-bye, motherfucker. You were good. All right, we're going to bring Alan Sepulow

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And since we're here, don't forget about the hottest take on Spotify because we've done six episodes and people really like this pod. You can follow us on Spotify. I would highly recommend it. It's a good one. All right.

Time for Alan Sepinwall. All right. I wanted to do this before the end of the month. It is the 25th anniversary of the 94-95 season of TV debuting that September. And it was probably the greatest TV season of all time. It's definitely in the running of the top three. So the only person to talk about this with is Alan Sepinwall from Rolling Stone. First question, is this the greatest TV season of all time?

Well, I mean, if we're just counting new stuff, it's really good because you've got Friends, you've got ER, you've got My So-Called Life, Party of Five, New York Undercover, even things like NewsRadio or Chicago Hope. There's a lot of really good things there. And Seinfeld was still on. And NYPD Blue and Law & Order and a bunch of other things. That's definitely way up there among the TV seasons. So a couple of things I was thinking.

It's still pre-internet. TV means more. There's less channels. It's more impactful when something starts. So you start with Thursday Night NBC, where Seinfeld had taken the torch from Cheers. I think Mad About You was already on. But then they just add Friends and they add ER, which I think are two of the 10 probably biggest shows we've ever had

from a pop culture fan, all of it standpoint. And that was an entire night of television. It was Mad About You at 8, Friends at 8.30, Seinfeld at 9. I forgot. Do you remember what was the 9.30 show? Mad Man of the People with Dabney Coleman. That was a misfire. And then ER at 10.

But you think about all of the people that were on NBC over a three-hour span. You have Paul Reiser and Helen Hunt. You have all of the Friends people, Perry, Aniston, everybody. You have Seinfeld, the most famous comedy cast we've ever had. And then you have an ER show that has Julianne Amarglise, George Clooney, Eric LaSalle, Anthony Edwards, Noah Wiley. I can't imagine there's ever been more stars on one night on a network, right? It's pretty enormous, especially when you're looking at broadcast network TV. It's amazing that they had all of this together, at least for that one year. And then you think

John Wells behind the scenes. Who are the Friends people? Marta Kaufman. I forget the other one. And David Crane. And then Larry David. And they're all behind the scenes people. There's never been a night like that. And I remember I think I just started

dating somebody that fall or that summer or that fall but like going she still lived at home going to her house every once in a while and we just like watched Thursday night TV with her and her parents from 8 to 11

and it was almost like the way you would watch a Netflix movie now it's like alright let's just watch the Thursday night show so you had that NBC also had Law and Order and they also had Tuesday's Frasier and Wings

which was the pseudo-intellectual comedy night. But then go to Fox. Fox that year gets football. Huge negotiation, big power play. Brian Curtis wrote about it on The Ringer. They bring football, they bring the NFC to Fox, and then put the Simpsons after it. And people are like, what the fuck is going on? They're going to put that, and they're promoing the Simpsons. They have Madden and Summerall, and it works. And now we have this Sunday night thing with the football league

and the Simpsons. That was huge. And then I would argue this is probably the greatest Fox year because you had that. You had Monday, they launched Party of Five. They moved 90210 off of Mondays. They have Melrose Place at the peak Melrose Place, followed by Party of Five, a show that I really liked.

They had 90210 on Wednesdays. That was the iconic Tiffany Ambertese and Luke Perry, Dylan's Drinking Again. 32 episodes that year, Sepp and Wal. Think about that. Fleabag was six episodes, 25 minutes a piece. 902.0 did 32 episodes. So they have all that.

They still had the Martin Living single hour, which was really, I mean, this is a paltry amount of black star programming on TV. And that was one of the only hours. And then Saturday night, Cops followed by America's Most Wanted. That was, I mean, that was like a real night. That was appointment viewing for some people. Was that the peak of Fox? It was really good. And you left out X-Files,

which was in its early, early good years. Yeah. Oh, what a miss by me. All right. So was that the peak of Fox? That very well might be. That's a lot of the things that Fox did well all in a night. Like you said, having Living Single and In Living Color and Martin and New York Undercover all on one night was, you know, the broadcast networks don't really do that anymore, unfortunately. Push your head, Madden and Summer Summerall doing on Wednesday, Dylan's drinking again. 90210. Alright, back to the Cowboys

game. So NBC had we mentioned them. ABC, they basically launched Ellen this year. They have an hour of Roseanne and Ellen, which would you say two of the five most important shows

starring a female comedy actress ever in sitcoms? I would say that's... I don't know that I would go that high because I think Ellen is notable that she came out, but the show wasn't that great. But Roseanne is definitely hugely important and it took Ellen a while to do that. I think back

then it might have... Was it still being called These Friends of Mine? Yeah, and then they eventually flipped it. Yeah. You're right. The Ellen show wasn't that good, but I think it became one of the most significant shows just based on the coming out thing, which it seems crazy now

when you think of where our culture is in 2019 that, you know, I think this might've been this year or the year before when Melrose Place, when Andrew Hsu's character saw the gay guy you know I think this might have been this year or the year before when Melrose Place when Andrew Hsu's character saw the gay guy in Melrose Place

kiss his friend but they couldn't show the kiss oh my god and then Ellen coming out a couple years later and that was like an atom bomb it's like

she would have a gay character and saying yup I'm gay yeah that was an atom bomb so you have that this was the one year of my so-called life, which is one of the most beloved cult network shows,

I think, ever. And is a show that was so far ahead of its time, but not just what it was about, but if it comes out now, that show's on Netflix for how many years? Eight? It just was the wrong time. The audience that it had is the audience that right now in 2019, I would say networks would value as much as any audience.

But in 1994, no. Bill, you would have like three or four people assigned just to the My So-Called Life beat at the ringer. Yeah, totally. Totally. And that show had some really influential characters. Like, the gay character on that show was really unlike,

there had never been a teen gay character. And Claire Danes, that was a watershed performance. I mean, the two watershed performances that year were her and T.A.T. on 90210

as Valerie Malone. Those are two of the great performances of my life. So you have that. Then you have NYPD Blue, which coming off just a phenomenal, groundbreaking first year with Caruso. I'm a Caruso NYPD guy,

as you know. And then the unconscionable decision to leave to make movies, and they have to write them out in season two, and figure out on the fly this new Jimmy Smith's thing. And it actually worked. And the show did not lose a beat. I still love John Kelly.

He was one of my favorite cop characters ever. But that was a significant pre-internet. It would have been fun to see what Twitter did with that whole thing 25 years later, right? Caruso just leaving? Yeah, I was on like the very primitive form of the internet, the Usenet, and people were not happy with Caruso,

but not to the degree it would be on social media now. Oh my God. Where do you stand on the first six to eight NYPD blues? I still feel like that's in the pantheon for me. Yeah, I would say like that, the first 13 episode run up through when they resolved the thing with Amy Brenneman shooting the mobster, that's about as perfect as you can get in a broadcast network drama. It's amazing.

And no correlation to any show that had happened before. That's the other thing. It was like, this was like, how is this on television? And now there's shows like it all over the place. They're mostly on cable though. Like, you know, Bochco was trying to have the networks compete with cable and instead, you know, it was like this blip on the radar and then Sopranos came along and that's what everyone began doing.

So then the other thing ABC had on Friday nights, they had the Family Matters Boy Meets World Hour, which I was out on. I didn't even know it was happening. And then when we started Grantland and I had some younger people in that kind of nostalgia vortex of that was kind of their age range. And I never knew those were like such huge shows. Basically like with Different Strokes and Sanford and Son and The Jeffersons and those good times, those shows were to us. Those were like two of the shows for that generation. So big year for ABC. The late night scene is underrated when people talk about 94, 95.

You had the height of Letterman versus Leno. This is actually when Leno starts to flip it a little bit. But this is when Bill Carter's book is coming out and we're just all so fascinated by that. Then you go to SportsCenter, Dan and Keith, the heyday for them. Brian Curtis wrote about that too, ironically. Followed by

Craig Kilborn, who for my money had the highest war of any SportsCenter host. If we're judging them as baseball players, you put Craig Kilborn on at 2.30 in the morning with some NBA highlights and he was good. He could do it. He could make it happen.

Just call out Jumanji he really like broke some ground and then you had Conan O'Brien who was becoming like the Gen X guy he had weathered

the storm in that first year and was now kind of finding his footing and had some writing and was another guy

pre-internet that was taken off and then the other thing that was weird about Late Night that year was SNL had the all-time gift of the OJ trial that should have been the greatest thing that happened to the show from just a material standpoint, but it had the weirdest

cast it ever had. And that was the year SNL kind of flipped. That doesn't help the case for best year of TV ever, but it was a top five weirdest SNL season. I think when you think of the legacy of that show, this was the first time people were like, wow, this show might need to go away. Right. Well, there's, there's two sort of funny things tied to that. Uh, one is the, one of the guys running NBC at the time was Don Olimire who was friends with OJ. Yeah.

He was really not like he kept sort of putting pressure on them to not go too hard at OJ. So that was an issue. And Olimar was also the guy who didn't like ER. I think he wanted to put homicide on Thursday nights when LA law ended and they did the testing and ER tested through the roof. So he put that there instead, but very reluctantly.

We have a couple of cable things going on here too. MTV, this is when the real world went to another level. This was the Puck versus Pedro year in San Francisco. Puck putting his hands in Pedro's peanut butter, just all hell breaking loose. And Pedro, who had HIV, and then we slowly watch him die over the course of the season. And I've just never seen anything like that on TV before. And that show was a phenomenon back in the day. They

had that, they had Beavis and Butthead. And then HBO, this is when Larry Sanders really started to become Larry Sanders, right? This was 94. This was now we're heading into the Hall of Fame stretch. And they had never had a great show before. This was the first one. Everybody seems to think it was, we've talked about this before on this podcast. Everybody thinks Sopranos was the first great HBO show or maybe even Sex and the City,

but it was actually Larry Sanders. That was the show that made people think, oh wait, they can actually do some stuff that's a lot different than any network TV can do. And you had that. do you feel like that, the impact of that show has been lost a little bit over the course of time? Well, I think it's underrated definitely because it came before the others. When you said people didn't really think of HBO that way,

but it's so influential on what comedy has become in the last 25 years in terms of just how much darker and introspective it's been and how sort of niche-y it can be. Like, that is one of the all-time great shows. It's not always easy to watch because it could be so uncomfortable, but my God, I love it. I love it, too. I was trying to get Nephew Kyle to watch it.

I feel like you can come in season three, right? You can dump the first two seasons and come in season three and just ride it the rest of the way, and I don't feel like you can come in season three, right? You can dump the first two seasons and come in season three and just ride it the rest of the way. And I don't feel like you miss anything. People out there who love binge watching, I would start season three and I would go all the way through. Two other things with HBO that I think are really important.

Dennis Miller Live starts that year. I thought that show was great. Regardless of how you feel about where his career and his rhetoric has gone the last 10 years or whatever, that show was awesome. And there was not really a show like that where it was funny. He would have a guest on. I always thought he was great interviewing guests. They were relaxed and it was unconstructed in a different kind of way. And then he was doing like the weekend update thing. And I think that show had a moment in the mid nineties. I think that's

another one that got lost in history. Did you like that show? I was a fan of Miller back then, you know, he was always my favorite weekend update act anchor at the time. And I was just so much fun watching that because it was a show that was so clearly not working in a lot of different ways. Like Andy Summers from the police leading the band for about two weeks and then quit. And Dennis just came on. I guess the guy from the police didn't want to do a talk show anymore. They tried a lot of different things. And I think eventually when he realized, okay, I'll just come out and I'll do weekend update that worked much better. And he did a nice job with the guests too. So the other thing that happened that's gotten lost in history,

HBO launches a show called Autopsy in 1994, which in a weird way is one of the secretly influential shows of the last 25 years. This show, I think his name was Dr. Michael Baden, Dr. Michael Bader, one of those guys. And each thing was about a case that used either DNA evidence or whatever. And it would be like, this person died in their home. It seemed like natural causes, or was it? And then it would just be these deep dives.

And the show was amazing. There had never been anything like this on. And now you think like, I mean, how many shows are like that now? A hundred where they have some sort of mysterious death and then they try to figure it out. I don't even know if that's on their app now,

but that show is out of control. So then here's another thing that, that peaked that year, crazy TV movies with the one star in them, like the Tori Spelling, you know, playing like the cheerleader who killed her boyfriend. And remember that,

that, that we had like a really great four year run with those movies that, and they would usually run on network TV. It wasn't, it was kind of pre lifetime. I don't think like Monday night was a big movie night. I think Fox did movies on Tuesdays. But yeah, the made-for-TV movie

was still a huge deal back then. It would be like The Critic Who Killed starring John C. Reilly as Alan Sepinwall. And that would it. They would get like the one major star, but it was always like a 90210, Melrose Place, Saved by the Bell type of whatever.

And people watched all of them. So that was big. We also had the OJ trial, which really launched that whole genre of just people watching trials on television. DirecTV, FX, and HDV all premiered that

year. And then finally, I wanted to go back to Seinfeld because it's coming off, you know, it was already a phenomenon. You could make a case this was the last great Seinfeld year. It's season six. This is the soup episode. It's got the switch. It's got the switch. It's got the Jimmy.

It's got the face painter. And in a weird way, it was starting to become a little bit formulaic, even though it wasn't. We were used to it now. It had already kind of had its creative apex, I feel like, but it was still throwing 99 miles an hour. And after this season, I thought it became a little more formulaic. What's your take on that? I think it definitely, it becomes

more cartoonish around then. But, you know, in the later seasons, you're still getting things like the Soup Nazi, like the Calzone. There's still a lot of, you know, great stuff with Steinbrenner, the Chicken Roaster, but it's definitely a much sillier show, especially after Larry David leaves and Jerry is just running the whole thing. I mean, there's a bunch of monster people behind the scenes too. Like you have Gamble and Pross, you have Berg and Schaefer who went on to do a whole bunch of stuff. Larry David.

And Dave Mandel who just did Veep. Yeah, Dave Mandel. It's a murderer's row. I wanted to talk about this because I couldn't help but notice that the Emmys on Sunday, that network TV is basically irrelevant for awards now. Jimmy Kimmel won the only Emmy that ABC won. I think Fox won zero. And we've now hit this point where streaming and HBO and the FX, like they just kind of taken the corner and I don't know what we do with this.

Like is it just over for networks with any sort of prestige? Are we done? I mean, I think every now and then they try and you'll still have a few isolated things like the good place, but mostly they've just sort of accepted like that. The audience for the more prestige-y kind of shows are not coming to them for that.

They want to go to Netflix. They want to go to HBO or FX or someplace else. And so it becomes this weird thing where the broadcast networks, every year they air a three-hour commercial for the competition. Right. If you were running ABC, NBC, or CBS, would you move to a model of

shorter series? Because we've seen that work so well with HBO and Netflix, all these places. It just happened with Unbelievable on Netflix. They're either six, seven, eight episodes, whatever. You can promote them.

They have a beginning, middle, end. It's over with two months or less. And then people move on to the next thing. Do people even want 22 episode shows anymore that are under 40? Not a lot. No. And it's this weird thing that we're like, I'm almost reluctant to recommend an old show to somebody because there's too many episodes of it to binge.

Yeah. The 20th anniversary was, The West Wing was the other night. And there's like 150 episodes of that show. And some of them are among the best things TV's ever done. And a lot of them aren't. And you got to sift through it to get through it all. And that's a big ask with all the TV that there is right now.

So what, the Good Place was doing what, 13 episodes? Like they, and Parks and Rec, they were the first ones that really just shortened the comedy, the comedy number? Yeah, I mean, Parks and Rec did usually regular length seasons, but Mike Schur, when he made the Good Place, said, no, I'm only doing 13 because I want to have a lot of story and a lot of churn here, and I can't do that if I'm making 22.

Yeah, I wonder if that becomes the new model. My Wife, the only show we watch in our house that's a traditional old school network show is The Resident, which she loves. The Resident's coming back. She's a huge fan of the guy. And I think medical dramas and legal dramas will just always work for networks specifically

because you just put your couple people in, you make sure two of them have sexual attention and the cases or the whatevers can change every week and you're kind of off. But, you know, I see a show like Stumptown, Colby Smulders, who I really like. I think she's really talented. I was kind of waiting to see what she was going to do next.

And the premise of that show seems good, but what does that ultimately mean? I don't even know. What do you think? I don't know. I've only seen one episode of it because it's this weird thing where the networks are still acting like it's 1994

and they're only, you know, other shows will give me like a whole season before I have to write a review. And ABC gave me one episode of everything. And so I'm just not going to do it because I can't tell anything from that. Yeah, because I do a review. And ABC gave me one episode of everything. And so I'm just not going to do it because I can't tell anything from that. Yeah, because I do think one of the things I loved about 1994 is you had a lot of the people

that were running stuff are now kind of gaining intelligence from all the stuff that hadn't worked in the previous 12 to 15 years. And you could really feel it in 93, 94, the creativity of some of the just things they were taking chances on. And I wonder with network TV, maybe the ship has sailed, but if, if it hasn't sailed, I would say the way to maybe get the mojo back would be to, um, to, to go shorter seasons. Cause there's no other way.

A coworker the other day comes up to me, he's going on and on about how he just started binging the good place. He loves it. And he says, and one of my favorite things about it is how they put in all these fake commercial breaks, you know, because they know that it's being made for Netflix.

And I said to him, no, it's, it's made for NBC. And he had no idea. Oh my God. Really? Yeah.

Well, so that the so the whole Good Place office, that has been the one positive thing, I guess, from the streaming thing. Like my daughter, I'm always fascinated by how she uses those streaming things. Like she banged out all the Jane the Virgins. She loves

that show. That's a show if I asked her what channel it was on, she wouldn't know. So maybe that's where we are, where it's almost like the network, having a show on a network is serving the burgers and fries for your 15 over population, basically. And then if any of the shows actually hit, people are going to see them on Netflix or Hulu or Amazon.

And that's how you get that second wave of audience and you get people like my daughter. It's kind of depressing, but I think that's where TV is going. Yeah. I was talking to like a showrunner of like a big mega hit from the early two thousands and they have a kid old enough to watch it now. And he starts saying, the kids asking him a question, he says, well, you know, the executives at ABC said this and the son says, what's ABC? Oh, no. Nephew Kyle doesn't have, you don't have network, you haven't ever had network TV, right?

Yeah, not for years. So if there was like a good ABC show, you wouldn't even know about it. No clue. I'd have to go to your house. That's what we're dealing with, Sepinwall.

Really sad. Hey, last thing. We've had a lot of nostalgia stuff about Friends. 25 years, all that stuff. I thought season one of Friends was outstanding. And I think the show was never remotely as good as it was that first year. Maybe the actors were better.

The stardom of them, I think, propelled the show in a different direction. But I really love season one of Friends. When you think about that show 25 years later, and especially that first season, what stands out to you and why can't a show like that happen now? Well, it's just so hard to do because to get five people that young, that good looking, all funny, all with chemistry with one another, not just romantic, but like, you know, you put Joey and Phoebe into a scene, that's going to be funny. Like, it's just, it's like alchemy.

It's very hard to pull off. And you're right, the longer it went and the more famous they got, that was a problem. Also, just the different ways in which they had to elongate the Ross and Rachel thing and kept coming back to that. That was a problem. But like, when that show was hitting, it was something like when they're having the game show for who gets to have Monica's apartment.

That's time capsule stuff right there. Did you ever think that show, which really seems dated in a lot of different ways when you watch it, like the clothes are dated and just the way the characters are interacting, it feels very mid nineties. Did you ever think it would be so popular with people like my daughter and that generation? Cause I'm stupefied by that.

It's amazing to me. I mean, it's kind of cool, but it's also like, I like the idea that they're watching the show where people, you know, they're at the coffee shop and they don't have phones. And so they have to interact and it's almost, it feels almost like we're watching something from the 1920s. It is funny, like the brief history of coffee culture on TVs and movies. Because remember that was a big part of singles. Bridget Fonda worked at a coffee place in Seattle

and they would go and have coffee. It was like one of the gimmicks is like, so coffee's a character. It's like, what? Coffee? And then Friends, it's like, yeah, so Rachel's going to work at this place, the Central Perk, and that's going to be the hangout for all of them. It's like, what? Most of the major scenes are taking place at a coffee place?

I was living in Boston at the time. I would go to Dunkin' Donuts. It wasn't a place you would hang out with six friends. There was no Central Perk in Boston. Just going into that whole world seemed nuts, but now I guess that part is more realistic. I mean, the rest of it.

The six, three male and three female friends just perfectly blending all together. I don't even know if anyone would try that again. They did. They tried. Like if you watch TV for the next five years, it was just one network after another trying

to make their own friends. It's like, here's five pretty people. Here's seven gorgeous people. And they were all terrible. And it bombed every time. And then everyone gave up. It might actually be the time, maybe it's six friends, but when they go to the coffee place, they're just all on their

phones, and that's the show. Occasionally, they pop up and they say, hey, Jeff Daniels has a new movie, and then they look back down at their phones, and that's it. What TV show are you most excited about right now? Oh, my God.

Unbelievable was really great. Yeah. We both liked that one. I'm enjoying mean, unbelievable was really great. Uh, we both like that one. I'm very, I'm, I'm enjoying this last season of the juice. I'm very excited that good place is coming back in a couple of nights. That's,

that's a really fun show and I can't wait to see them see it off. I think that it has been a really good TV season. Um, I would give, we always talked about like the era of B plus TV. Remember that's been a theme a couple of the last times you came on

this year's been a solid A minus maybe even a borderline A for me I've liked a lot of different stuff I think the running tally of like you know what might be on my top 10 or my top 20 for the end of the year and the list at the moment is just oppressively long

there's so much good stuff even when you get past things like Fleabag or Russian Doll, it's been a really great year for TV. Well, I think we should probably end on this. The biggest disappointments of my life, probably Super Bowl 36, the ball going through Buckner's legs,

and you just not admitting that you want to like Succession, I think is the top three for me. You're still out. You haven't swung around. I will say this. A few weeks ago, I topped out at episode seven of season one a while back because, you know, among a bunch of people who work for you kept pressing me. It's like, no, it gets really good at episode five. It gets really good at episode six.

It gets really good at episode seven. So I finally watched, I think, episode eight or whatever the episode is where they go to the retreat in New Mexico. Yeah. Um, and yeah. And Kendall, you know, goes off the wagon and all of that. And I'm like, I still don't think I care. And I haven't come back to it since.

And eventually, eventually I'm sure I will probably make time to watch it, but look, not every show is for everybody, Bill. I think it's okay. You and my mom. My mom doesn't like it either. She watched one episode and she's like, I don't like these people. I don't want to spend time with them.

And that was it. She was out. And then I kept pushing her. And then she finally watched again. She's like, I watched four episodes. I don't like those people. I'm out. And that was it.

I couldn't do it. I know you're right. Not every show's for everybody. But I want you to know. Not every show is for everybody. But I want you to know it still hurts my feelings. Does it hurt your feelings more or less than either of the Giants, Patriots, Super Bowl games? Less. Less. It hurts my feelings exactly as much as it hurt your feelings when I never watched The Shield.

So I think we're even. Hey, one last question. If ABC just announced they were bringing back lost, what would happen? I don't know. I talked to Lindelof about that a while ago. Cause he's got this Watchmen series coming up, which I'm also excited about in October. And he said he's expecting it will happen eventually. And he's kind of looking forward to seeing what somebody else does with it. Um, I don't know.

Like, I don't want it to be like a sequel. I don't want it to be just like a direct remake. I just want someone to take the basic idea and do something cool with it. Like, you know, Battlestar Galactica from the mid-aughts or whatever we call it. What would be the number one show you would bring back? I don't know.

I'm always kind of reluctant to bring stuff back because it usually doesn't work out well, although I love the Deadwood movie and I liked Twin Peaks. So I guess the number one show I would bring back would be Terriers, which five people would watch. Oh wow. Terriers. Shane Ryan again on me.

Here's my top two. And it's a one, a one B and I don't even know what one, a one B is. I've made this case all decade. I stand by it. I don't know what NBC is doing. They should absolutely bring Cheers back.

They should set it in Chicago with Vince Vaughn, and he should be a former forward for the Blackhawks and make it a hockey thing, but basically do the same thing. But I would want to see that show in 2019, 20 with in, in a woke, woke culture. How would you set a show in a bar and try to accomplish all the stuff that made Cheers so great, but do it in different city in 2020, I would watch the first episode. I think it's worth the effort. I would encourage somebody out there to do it. That'd be my number one choice. Number two, I just can't believe Miami Vice hasn't come back.

It's the all-time no-brainer. Just bring it back. Miami as a character is the most valuable TV character we have. Ballers, a show that is completely incomprehensible. I have no idea what happens on this show. I had John David Washington on my podcast. He couldn't even describe what the plot of the show was. I was watching two weeks ago, The Rock.

It was filming all his scenes from a car. I guess that's how he's on the show now. And he owns the Kansas City Chiefs. And somebody was trying to form an e-sports team. And I was like, what is this? You're speaking so badly of Elizabeth Warren's favorite TV show. Wow, that's tough. That's a tough beat for her.

But the reason that show works is it's in Miami. And they can always fall back on, hey, let's put 50 people on a boat and play some hip-hop song. And then do the wide sweeping camera angle back as we hit closing credits. And people are going to like it because it's set in Miami. I just think Miami wins every time as a TV character. You have Miami Vice, you have Crockett and Tubbs.

You have basically everybody under 35 does not remember that show. And it's just a cop show in Miami. It's going to work. Just bring it back. Have Michael Mann. Give him 10 million bucks

just to pretend to consult on it. It's going to work. I got one more for you, actually, which brings us back to the 1994-95 TV season. Yeah. Which is when ER went to Hulu last year, I wound up binging almost the entire series. It's so good. The thing I had on the background, and it really held up. And you get to the last episode, and Mark Green's daughter shows up to become a medical student there.

And Carter has returned and everything. And it ends with like a mass casualty and they're lining up. And I thought like, you could just bring the show back now and it would be mostly new characters and a couple of old ones and it would still be good. You could also do that with N.Y. Petey Blue. I mean,

they're doing it, Bill, and it's not good. What is it? They're doing something about Sipowicz's son investigating Sipowicz's murder. And I've seen the script and it's not good. What is it? They're doing something about Sipowicz's son investigating Sipowicz's murder. And I've seen the script and it's not good. Well, I mean, Grey's Anatomy

is still on. That show's been on for what, 16 years? And you could have told me it went away for four years and came back and I would believe it. But I'm with you. They could reboot ER tomorrow. They could also, by the way, do the West Wing. They could bring that back and just with different president and have fun.

I am all for smart reboots. As you know, I loved Cobra Kai. And Cobra Kai was smart because it didn't just try to redo Karate Kid. It actually took characters we knew and changed the situations for them. I wish they would do that more with television. Hey, when's your Sopranos book come out on a paperback?

Probably not like for another year, just because I think we're waiting for the, this, the movie to come out and to talk and maybe talk to David Chase about that. But the hardcover is still out there and I hear it's a pretty good book. You had success with that. It got people fired up to binge it. And as, as we talked about the last time you were on,

it was really fun to binge watch the show and read the book along with it. I really thought that model worked. I was proud of you. Well, thank you, Bill. I appreciate that. All right.

Uh, as always, thanks for coming on. Anytime. All right. We're going to bring in Oscar winner, Billy Bob Thornton. But first, let's talk about Sonos. Every Sonos speaker designed from the inside out for incredibly detailed sound and deep bass, then fine-tuned by Oscar

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or you can have the little portable one. If you want to put it like in your room, like in the guest house that I have where I have the four TVs where I watch football on Sundays, just put a little Sonos in there. You can put a little portable speaker. They have that now.

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Check all of it out at Sonos.com and find out everything new that they have to offer. It's great. And before we get to Billy Bob, wanted to mention the rewatchable Shawshank Redemption. It's coming Wednesday, late in the afternoon. We've been holding this one for a while. It's finally time to do it.

It's my... I'm keeping it low, but it's a relatively big birthday for me tomorrow. We're going to be doing Shawshank finally. One of my favorite movies ever, if not my number one favorite movie. We're doing it on the rewatchable. So get

ready for that one. Okay. Let's bring in Billy Bob. All right. Billy Bob Thornton is here. You were enigmatic for a while. You didn't do a lot of interviews for years, but now you're out there a little bit more. You've belatedly embraced the circuit well you know i did it for so long for so many years and you know you do all the shows and all that and so uh you know the past uh couple of years i've been doing goliath so um you know every time it comes out or when it's about to come out you know you got to go out and promote it. I believe in promoting the stuff, you know, it's part of the job. And I really don't mind interviews. I'm all for them.

I mean, I spent a few years there where I didn't do anything but tour with our band. Yeah. So I was still doing interviews during that time, but they were mostly for music. So, you know, because I only did, you know, a couple of movies in the last few years and then Goliath. You've kind of gravitated to TV a little bit, which I think in general that seems to be where a lot of people have gravitated toward even viewers and people like that. It's just the more interesting stuff seems to be happening on the TV side these days. It's true. Uh, the reason for it, I believe anyway,

uh, is, you know, I, I came up doing both studio movies and independent film. I did a lot of independent films and, but the heyday was like the late eighties through like the early two thousands. And then the independent film business kind of went in the john, you know? Yeah. And these days for independent films, they don't give you much money to make them. And the distributor is usually not maybe the biggest, you know, and people don't see them.

It's a way, doing stuff for like Amazon or HBO, whoever whoever it is it's a way to do like an eight hour movie yeah eight hour independent film because it feels like you're making a movie because there are no restrictions so you can do whatever you want to do so all the best work for actors is now in the streaming world or you know certain tv uh not network tv as much you know that's still crazy the same as it as it's always been but this whole idea of the amazons you know people like that is is really cool so that's what you see what happened at the emmys it was like basically all streaming and hbo and right and the networks basically got shut out it was unbelievable yeah i didn't think the networks are happening like an alternate It was unbelievable. Yeah, I didn't know that. It's like the networks are happening

like an alternate universe now. And then, you know, Amazon Fleabag won a whole bunch of awards, including for Best Comedy. And that show was six episodes, probably like 26 minutes an episode. Oh, yeah. You know, it's basically like a long movie split up into six parts.

That's the way it works. So actors want to be there now. Yeah. They know that you can also make a living for your family doing that, you know, whereas in the independent film, it's nothing anymore. And so you get to do good work

and, you know, be paid for it. And it feels like the old days. So we're all for it. You know, we didn't, our show got in on the, you know, too late for qualification for the emmys we don't ours doesn't come out till october 4th so so it's got to go next year yeah it had to be next year yeah um when you look back so you had one false move 92 maybe yeah it came out in 92

we made it in like 9 90 or 91 and that was the old school, you scrape some money together, you try to get it made, you maybe get into a festival and stuff like that. What is that movie now in 2019? How are you trying to make a movie like that? Or are you turning it into a TV series? I think probably so. You turn it into a TV series.

Like a season one, right? Or, I mean, some of these streaming places, like Amazon, they're doing movies now, too. Yeah. So, and that's a more recent thing, you know, so they're opening up to movies now. And so hopefully, you know, because I'll ultimately go back to movies at some point, you know. We'll see if they do another season of this one. I think they're inclined to.

But it's been very successful for them yeah you know as long as things are successful they usually don't see a reason not to do it so uh but um you know i've got a couple of movies that i'm gonna probably do next year do people try to you seem like one of those guys that people are trying to convince you to do stuff and you're just doing whatever you're just trying to convince you to do stuff and you're just doing whatever. You're just beating to your own drum over here. And you're like, yeah, that sounds great. I wouldn't do that. Thanks anyway.

Yeah. I mean, because first of all, the studio movies these days are mostly big event movies, you know, like Marvel movies and different ones like that, which have a, you know, for the most part, I think, a younger following. I know they, you know, I guess, you know, anywhere from middle-aged to older folks, I guess they go to them too, but most of them might be going public for those movies as a younger audience. And, you know, I'm like, I look like Kirk Douglas to them, you know what I mean? So it's like, you know, I don't know how much they've got. And I'm too old to play Batman, and I'm not interested in playing the mayor.

There's some villain stuff you could have done the last 12 years. You were good in Faster. Yeah, I guess I could do that. I like Faster. I like when really good actors end up in popcorn movies and stuff like that. I feel like that doesn't happen enough. Yeah, it doesn't happen that often. I mean, I've done a few. I did Armageddon.

Yeah. I mean, that movie was insanely popular when that came out. Yeah, it was. And there was also a really loaded, loaded cast, which I think most people appreciated. I'll never forget, because that was the first big event

kind of movie that I'd been in. I had done Primary Colors with Mike Nichols and John Travolta, but that was a more— That was a smart people event movie. A smart people event movie. Yeah, exactly. But Armageddon, we had a great time on. And I actually—I've only seen it all the way through probably once because I don't really watch the stuff I do much. Yeah.

But I got to say, for one of those kind of movies, I was moved by it, you know. I actually thought, well, you know what, this is like a movie that, you know, Jimmy Stewart might have been in or something. You know, I liked it. And so, actually, a lot of young fans still remember that movie because they were little kids when they saw it. And so, I get that a lot. Well, we're still in the, we're right now in the nostalgia vortex would be like 97 to 04. Right, right. Where, you know, so that movie is 21 years old now, but you have all the people like my age and younger who remember it.

But then you have people who are growing up who are now in their 20s who are like, it was one of the people like my age and younger who remember it, but then you have people who are growing up who are now in their 20s who are like it was one of the first action movies they saw. So you're hitting like three generations with it. Yeah, it's true. It happens with Bad Santa too. Yeah, I was going to say. A lot of young people love Bad Santa, but they weren't old

enough to see it when it came out. You know, that was ahead of its, well it wasn't ahead of its time because I guess American Pie had come up before, but the whole concept of the raunchy R-rated adult comedy that kids kind of wanted to either sneak in the theater and see or watch

on cable when they weren't supposed to be watching it. It was, people started looking at that strategically and it was part of the gimmick and it's smart and it seems like it works. But Bad Santa was definitely one of those movies. that strategically, and it was part of the gimmick, and it's smart, and it seems like it works. But Bad Santa was definitely one of those movies. Oh, yeah. And it really kind of was groundbreaking and sort of the first one of its kind because American Pie, even though it did have some of the raunchy stuff in it, it still followed that formula of the teen movie.

Like, let's say Revenge of the Nerds or Animal House maybe or that kind of thing and Vacation to a lesser degree. Yeah, totally. But Bad Santa was the first one that showed just like this alcoholic, profane guy. And after that, it spawned a lot of others like it. Right. You know what I mean?

I mean, they started having bad teacher and bad grandma and bad this and that, you know. And it was so funny that they just unabashedly said, called it that. I mean, in other words, they didn't try to call it something else. They actually called it bad whatever I mean, in other words, they didn't try to call it something else. They actually called it bad whatever, you know? And after that, of course, you know, Hollywood, when they see something successful, they'll want to repeat it or, and they do it with actors too. So after Bad Santa, every time they had another guy like that, they called me, you know? And so

I ended up doing Bad News Bears and then I did Mr. Woodcock, you know and so i ended up doing bad news bears yeah and then i did mr woodcock you know so it's like there for a while i was the i was that that guy you know bad santa it was definitely when the anti-hero was starting to come into play especially on tv too right oh yeah the sopranos and the shield and it was like this person's a bad person but you're gonna like him anyway exactly it's a bad saying to kind of fit into all that stuff it did yeah it sure did so for years starting i would say early 90s you were like one of those guys seeing a movie and it'd be like oh that guy oh yeah and then sling blade happened but you had like this five-year run where it seemed like you

were just going to be character actor guy yeah and you'd be the second bad guy in the thing or you'd be like the the divorce lady's dad who's not being nice to the kid whatever yeah and that was just going to be your career did you just assume that was going to be your career did you have higher aspirations well i had higher uh aspirations obviously but i but i didn't uh i didn't know what was going to happen i i've always tried to well it's kind of like you know if there's a monster in the room you think if i just sit here really still maybe you won't notice me or care to like kill me. So I kind of looked at my career that way. It's like, if I just don't think one way or the other and just keep going, things will work out okay. And that's kind of the way it happened.

But you thought like someday I'm going to be an A-list actor and I'm winning an Oscar. Well, I don't know if I thought all that. I had confidence in myself as an actor. I mean, I always had confidence. And I started out in music, and that was from the time I was in my first band when I was probably 10 or 11. And I always had confidence in it. I just, I never had the confidence that anybody would care. Yeah. And, uh, or how, you know, popular what I do would become, but I had confidence in what I was doing. So when I made Sling Blade, I was only making it for a few people. Yeah. I made it for, I thought, well, you know, my mom and my brothers would get a kick out of this, you know, and, uh, uh, I, I didn't know it was going to become what it became. Uh, and once that happened, everything took off and it's been the same since. Did anybody know that was going to become what it became. And once that happened, everything took off,

and it's been the same since. Did anybody know that was going to happen? I would say that's one of the most improbable movie successes that we've had in the last 25, 30 years. The people in the movie business who saw it at the screenings, because the way they did it, these kids out of New York produced it, and they didn't have much money you know yeah and um but the people who came to the screens they had a

screening in new york and a screening in la for distributors at the same time and one studio actually came out of the screening uh one of their executives came out of the screening and called the head guy who was in europe and said, you have to buy this movie. Oh. Before the screening was even over. And so the distributors were all over it. So they had a feeling. Because at that time, that's back when, you know, Miramax was at its height,

you know, and some of these others like, what was it, Fine Line or, you know, some of these. New Line, yeah. New Line and, you know, Fox 2000, I think, was one of them. And all those studios were doing very well with independent film and you could do that. I mean, it was like after, you know, Quentin Tarantino had done oh what the heck was it the one with the guys all dressed in the suits with reservoir dogs had been done

you could have been in that one I think I read for it I was going to say you're one of the most Tarantino-y actors that was never actually in one of those I don't know I always wondered that because I know Quentin pretty well. But, you know, but it's like— You should just take him for drinks and be like, dude, where the fuck?

I'm right here. Well, you know, I think Quentin is a lot like the Coen brothers who I've worked with several times. The Coen brothers know when it's time to cast you in something because I knew the Coen brothers for years before they put me in anything. And I was—it was just like that. I was thinking, what the hell? You know, it's like I go to the Super Bowl party with these guys every year why are they not putting me in anything so they're calling you and you're you think it's for their next movie like hey man just want to check in so you don't have dinner you're like yeah exactly maybe quentin has a plan for me you

never know what director did you cook with the best sam ramey quite a bit i did simple plan with sam ramey and i loved sam but you know i've gotten along with you know i've had good times a lot of directors over the years you know uh i mean i worked with mike nichols which was amazing and in near the tail end right that was one of his last That was one of his last movies. Yeah, one of his last movies. I had a great thing with Robert Altman, who I never worked with, but I was to star in his last movie. He was going to do a movie called Hands on a Hard Body based on the documentary. And I was going to star in it.

And I even went to his house and worked on the script with him and everything else. And, yeah, I'd go out to Malibu and sit around with him and we'd talk it over. But he passed away before we made it. What was the script in one sentence? Well, the documentary is about a real-life event. They have these things. I don't guess it's just one. I guess they have several.

But, excuse me, it's these contests. They're like marathons. Remember when they used to, back in the old days, have the, like they shoot horses, don's these contests. They're like marathons. Remember when they used to, back in the old days, have the, like they shoot horses, don't they? Yeah. Where they danced to see who could dance before the last one fell out. Before they like fell out, yeah. Yeah, so they danced for like two or three days,

whatever it is. Hands on a hard body was, these people would put their hand, you had to be in contact with your hand, with a vehicle. Like, say it's a brand new, you know, Chevy truck or whatever it is. Yeah.

And whoever was the last person standing with their hand on the vehicle, or it's a new Mustang or Corvette, and whoever's got their hand on it before they pass out or whatever, wins. I remember reading about this. And whoever's got their hand on it before they pass out or whatever, uh, wins. I remember reading about this. And you win the vehicle. So I was going to be the news reporter who was the lead of the movie, who was covering one, like in Dallas, I think it was. And, uh, and then they had all these other characters. Like one of the characters was my

cameraman and then, uh, and the producer and then all the people who were the actual contestants, you know. And I think it was being held at an actual car lot. And then I know we had talked at the time about maybe making Tommy Lee Jones the owner of the car lot, you know. Oh, wow. And Chris Rock as one of the contestants. It was going to be a really good cast and uh that's a bummer yeah and uh yeah he passed away so that was one of the great regrets in my life that i didn't get to work with altman because i always loved him you were in blood in blood out

yeah yeah that is a ringer favorite and it's some movies just disappear that one's just gone there's no record of it it It's never on cable. I love that movie. It's one of the great Mexican-American movies ever, if not the number one. And one of the great prison movies. It's got a whole prison sequence in there. But somebody that works for us, Shea Serrano,

it's like his all-time, all-time favorite movie. With the Latin community,'s uh one of the biggest things like if i if i go over to like pico rivera i'm like you know elvis presley's there because i was gonna say everybody knows blood in blood out it's amazing when you're in different company it's a different movie that people bring up you know uh you know like uh you, like with, you know, I have a pretty decent African-American following, you know, and it's usually Monstrous Ball or Bad Santa, frankly, you know, any like Hispanic fans, you know, they're always all over Blood and Blood Out. And it's not to say that they're the only ones. It's not that divided. And then, you know, like I said, with the more kind of the broader public, like in the Midwest or something like that, you know, going across the country, it's usually more like Armageddon or Friday Night Lights,

a football movie about Texas. I was going to ask you about that. The football fans must have... Yeah, when I'm in Texas, it's all about the Alamo or Friday Night Lights. That's like your last movie because it got overshadowed by the TV series. And the movie itself is really good. Yeah, I like that movie. It turned into a TV series. And the movie itself is really good. Yeah, I like that movie. And then it turned into a TV series

and then the TV series hit this era like right before streaming basically and everybody's trying to save it every year. Exactly. And it was an awesome show. I loved it. We did a whole bunch of stuff with it. Well, I think it did overshadow it

simply because it was right in people's face all the time. Yeah. And so people love a soap opera. I mean, that's the nature of the soap opera is something that right in people's face all the time. Yeah. And so people love a soap opera. I mean, that's the nature of the soap opera is something that gets in people. That's why I think streaming is such a big thing now. People want something that they can follow. Right. Now, and with a movie, it's one and done.

And, you know, and also in the movie, people who, I gave an example earlier. I was talking to, you know, Rich Eisen. Yeah. I was talking to him about this because we were talking sports. And people, like, don't dig it when their hero loses in a movie. Yeah. And so in the movie, you know,

here's this team that you're following and it's based on a real thing so you got to do it the way it was done. And, the way it happened, rather.

And, so, in the movie, the movie's over and they lost. But in the series, it's something ongoing. There's hope for something to happen, you know? And, um, but I gave Rich this example. Uh, there was a movie back in the seventies. It

was a war movie, World War II movie, uh, called A Bridge Too Far. And at the time, uh, you know, World War II movies have always been huge in America. I mean, we love World War II movies, or maybe not as much now, but they still even make them now. And they did the Dunkirk movie, obviously, the British one. But, you know, they've had different ones. They had a Pearl Harbor movie a few years back, you know, that Michael Bay did, I think. But anyway, this movie, Bridge Too Far,

it was written by William Goldman, who's a huge screenwriter, you know, one of the best. And he talks about it in his book even that what happened with that movie was here you've got every movie star at the time. You know, Jimmy Caan was in it and Elliot Gould and Ryan O'Neill

and Sean Connery and Anthony Hopp. Because you had all these, everybody who was huge at that time. And you know how they used to do that in these big movies? They cast all the movie stars, her and Popier. And so, but it's about a battle that we lost. And they said America just did not want to see a World War II movie where we lost. And they said America just did not want to see a World War II movie where we lose. And obviously, ultimately, we win.

So if you're doing a movie about the whole war or whatever, of course, they made The Battle of the Bulge, and that was the end of the war. We came out. But Bridge Too Far was about a miscalculation, something we screwed up. Sports movies have this issue. There's only been a few where the team or the hero loses in the end.

But the one that succeeded was Rocky. He loses the fight, but they frame it as a way like he lost the fight, but he won the girl. Yeah, yeah. But other than that, it's like that movie, Tin Cup, Friday Night Lights. In Victory, the soccer movie they tie they don't win but for the most part people are conditioned for the winner to actually win did pete try to talk you into being in the tv series or were you just too too big at that point i it would have been a weird career move i i think they did talk to me about it. And I don't know if Pete talked to me directly about it, but I think my manager talked to me about it.

And I know Connie Britton actually did. Yeah, that's why I asked. But yeah, my career was in a spot at that time. It was before. It might have been different if TV was what it is now. Yeah. But that was at the beginning of it. You know, it was like one thing. I mean, I guess the Sopranos had been out, you know,

in the wire and all these different things. But I think it wasn't, it wasn't as cool to do it at that time. And I think, frankly, it wouldn't have been good for the show either because I think I was too famous or whatever, you know. I agree. That I think it would have been a distraction for the TV show. And the guy they ended up with did a really good job, Kyle Chandler. Yeah.

Kyle did a great job. So you guys get along. You're like, he's like the second husband. You're the first husband. Right. Exactly. Right. He's like the stepdad.

Yeah. It gets a little tense when we're around Connie, you know, but, but, you know, cause I show up to the reunion and all that. Yeah, there's this guy. But, yeah, but no, they, he did a great job and see, and also Connie's career was at a point where she was just burgeoning, you know, it's like a, for her, I think it was a great thing. Well, she ended up, yeah, that was career wise. That was a thing for her.

It's funny. I never, I didn't watch it when it came on because I liked the movie I was like fuck that I'm not watching the TV show and then about 10 episodes 12 episodes in

I had so many people in my life were like hey man you really screwed up you gotta watch this there's no way to catch up you know

it was pre-streaming it was so I had to buy these Japanese DVDs on eBay and put Japanese DVDs on eBay and put these DVDs in that had the Japanese subtitles in them for the Japanese people, but it was in English. And I caught up that way, and then I was ready for season two.

But now it's like, you know, we've been on whatever, and you would just binge them. It was really the ultimate binge watch show. Sure. So going backwards, Sling Blade hits and all of a sudden you're in the tsunami.

Yes. You win an Oscar. What do you remember about that all these years later? You know, it's kind of like they say it is. The two things that I've done that were kind of like they say, it's the first time that I've done that were kind of like they say, it's the first time you're at the Oscars and you win one.

And I was nominated for two that year. Yeah. Because you're nominated for Best Actor, too, but you won for Screenplay. Won for Screenplay. And then the next time I was nominated was a couple of years later for A Simple Plan, for Supporting Actor. And that time, the second time I went for A Simple Plan, I was a little more used to it. And I remember it more clearly.

And it was also an eventful year when I won or was nominated for A Simple Plan because it was a year Roberto Benigni won for Life is Beautiful. Oh, my God. Everybody got so mad. And remember, he jumped over all the seats. Yeah. Well, he stepped on my shoulder. What? It was like, yeah, he like clank, you know, and I'm like, I was sitting near the Coen brothers.

I remember that. And he comes over the seats. I was like, wow, that was scary. And but it was also the year that Elia Kazan was being given the Lifetime Achievement Award, and people were saying they weren't going to applaud him and they weren't going to stand because of the whole Hollywood blacklisting era, the McCarthy thing, and that deal. So that was the big talk among the community was, are you going to stand? I don't know. Are you? You know, that kind of thing.

And so the first one for Sling Blade, it was such a blur. I took my mom and my buddy Dwight. Joachim went with us. Yeah. Because he was in the movie. And Dwight and my mom were real close. And so that was cool. So my mom's date was kind of Dwight.

So she was thrilled by that. So it was a big deal. And I'd been through the whole dog and pony show leading up to it and going to all the parties and stuff. And I wasn't used to it. Honestly, they always tell you that when you go to the Oscars for the first time, that it'll all be such a blur that you won't remember it. And it'll seem like it went by so fast and they were totally right. They also say when you host Saturday Night Live, you'll be

terrified all week and you'll think they don't know what they're doing. It'll seem really disorganized. And then the next thing you know, you're about to be live on television think they don't know what they're doing. It'll seem really disorganized, and then the next thing you know, you're about to be live on television, and you don't even know what you're doing. And then when the show's over, it'll go, instead of an hour and a half, it'll seem like it took 20 minutes, and when it's over,

you'll wish you could do it again right away. And that was true, too. Because it was so fun, and that was completely true. What year did you host SNL? I hosted the Thanksgiving episode of 2001. Oh, that was a good season. And it was right after, you know, Will Ferrell was still there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ana Gesteyer was still there. And like Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler, they were like the intern types. Right, that was the year they showed up. Yeah, because they had 9-11 and then their first show was like the post-9-11 show. That was the year they showed up. Yeah. Cause that was, they had nine 11 and then their first show was like the post nine 11 show. That's exactly right. And,

and so it was real tense in New York then because it was right after nine 11. Yeah. And I remember flying in there was terrifying, you know, and then being at the, in the building up high like that was terrifying. And, and it was a Thanksgiving episode.

And my first character that I did on the show was a Thanksgiving skit where I played a gay pilgrim, which I had never done anything like that before. Yeah, yeah. And so, but it was fun. I had a great time doing it. And I remember doing a skit with Seth that didn't make the, I don't think it made the cut. Because, you know, you do a bunch of them. You do it for two different audiences.

The first audience is the sort of trial. Yeah, the rehearsal show. The rehearsal show. And it's longer. You do like a couple hours, you know, and say there's 16 or 18 skits that's whittled down to 12, because at halftime, you go into Lorne's office and he goes, eh, okay, we're going to not do this one, we're going to do that, you know. But yeah, I mean, all those young people were there at that time, you know,

Tracy Morgan and Seth and Amy Poehler, Jimmy Fallon, all of them. And I actually played Jimmy and Jimmy's dad in that Nick something, the company's computer guy. So I played his dad. So I had to be like really nerdy and, you know, kind of move like he did and, you know, tell somebody to move from the computer and all that. Sounds like you're ready to go back. Well, you know, I've been offered a couple other times and I think we were supposed to, we were going to do the musical guest at one point as the band. Really? Something came out.

It was like we were on tour. We couldn't work it out, whatever. But I don't know. I may be too terrified to do it now, you know. Really? Because it's scary. Yeah, I'd imagine. It's really frightening to do.

And I told them after I did the first one, I said, I could never do this again. It was so much fun. And I could have done it again like tomorrow, you know, but to do it two or three years from now, I don't know. I'd be terrified. So you basically stopped directing after All the Pretty Horses, right? You didn't like the experience? Well, I don't know. It was kind of taken away at the end and cut to—

I was told to make a three-hour epic, and they cut it to an hour and 59 minutes. They took that out of your hands at the tail end. Yeah, at the tail end, yeah. And the music score, which was done by Daniel Landau, which was maybe the most beautiful score I ever heard. And the guy who did the score, ultimately, was a friend of mine, Marty Stewart, and he did a great job. But none of it was what we did originally. You know, like the cut we had was really good.

And that whole stuff that was in the papers about my argument with the studio about how I had a four or five hour cut was never true. I showed them the assembly, which is literally everything you shot, which was like three hours and 50 minutes, whatever it was. But I said, now, you know, I'm just showing you everything I shot. This is not my cut. My cut was like 242, something like that. Yeah. Which by the way, is the exact length of the English patient. Right. So, you know, so is that cut? nobody's ever seen it nobody's ever seen it yeah

there's no way for it to come back Stan we have all these ways for people to watch that I know you've washed your hands of this movie well I didn't wash

my hands of it I still love what we did and Matt Damon still to this day says it's the best thing he ever did because there's been this has been

a relatively recent thing of when this has happened where studios mangle cut or whatever, eventually the actual cut that people want to see. And it's so much easier to see it than it would have been in the 80s. I don't think it's out of the question. You know, it's certainly not out of the question

that I would want to do it at some point if I could restore it to its original form. So you think 242? That was what that cut was. I mean, I may look at it now and I may make it longer or I may make it shorter. You know, you never know. I mean, it's been so long, but I do know we made a really good movie. Yeah. And a lot of the critics and stuff have always wanted to see it. Roger Ebert always said, you got to put this out someday. Yeah. It was a big deal when you were making it because Damon was red hot. You were hot. People were talking about

it. And I've directed since I did a documentary that, uh, yeah, I meant more like, but yeah. And I did a small independent film that nobody saw. Yeah. Have you been offered bigger things or do people not think of you as a director anymore? Oh, yeah, they do. I mean, they offer me stuff. I just, it takes a year and a half out of your life. So unless you're really passionate about getting your ass handed to you again, you know, and spending a year and a half out of your life, I think it would have to be something pretty special. And also, you know, you get tired of being beaten up. And I mostly,

the stuff that I wrote and directed is based on Southern literature, like Erskine Caldwell and Flannery O'Connor, people like that. And I, I don't know if that's relevant anymore. So I don't know. I don't know if I'm relevant as a writer or, or director. Uh, and I certainly don't want to put myself through it anymore. Um, so if something came along that I thought people might respond to and that I loved, uh, I might do it. So it something came along that I thought people might respond to and that I loved, I might do it. So it's not out of the question, but it's certainly not at the top of my list. I think I'm better as an actor just doing what other people have created. How has your relationship with fame changed over the last 30 years? Because you've experienced

all types of versions of it, including even like the celebrity couple version with Angelina and stuff like that, where you're just, you have people analyzing every picture of you in a limo and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. It didn't seem like you liked it 20 years ago. Are you more used to it now? You know, I've always been good with fans. I've always been open and friendly with fans. And I'm one of the guys who'll stand there on the sidewalk and talk to a lady about her son who's in dental school for like an hour and a half. I'm way too codependent not to. At the end of the day, you kind of owe it to them. And I never wanted to be the kind of guy who shined on his fans because, you know, those are the people that put your kids through school or, you know, bought your house for you. I think you owe it to them.

And as long as they're nice, I am, you know, but one thing that's changed over the years is that, you know, when I, when I was coming up, you only had a handful of critics. I mean, there was a finite number of critics and a finite number of, of journalists because you had to work for something, you know, somebody. Yeah, there's like 100 newspapers, 20 magazines. Right, exactly. That's about it. That's right. And now, you know, you find out once, you know, the internet came along and became popular, you find out how many people hate your guts.

You know, it's like before we didn't know that. That's initially what the internet was called. These people hate your guts. Yeah, exactly. And so, and sometimes for random reasons, and sometimes it's not even real. And I've even heard about, you know, people will purposely get a bunch of people to say something about you because you're the competition. I mean, I know that happens. Yeah.

Oh, you're talking about like for Oscar competitions? Or anything like that, you know, or you have somebody who is for you who puts a bunch of stuff out there that's positive for you. So it's like you never know, but then, you know, there's a lot of meanness on there. And so, you know, we didn't grow up with that stuff. Do you read that stuff? Do you Google yourself? Do you stay away from it? What do you do? I don't do it, but you run into it anyway. I mean, you can literally look up where

was Mark Twain born and somehow I end up on list of meanest actors or whatever. You know what I mean? It's like, how the hell did that happen? I was just looking up when Mark Twain was born, you know? And so, uh, and you know, once you see it, you got to read it. Cause you're like, I'm not going to read it. There's no way because you're like, I'm not going to read it. There's no way. It's like, I'm not going in that basement. I heard a noise down there, you know. Right.

But it's probably not an ax murderer. You know, it's probably just a rat. You go down there and the next thing you're being chopped to bits. Right. I try to stay away from it. But I guess my point is, is that when you see people on the street and they come up to you and you got a bunch of guys who have pictures for you to sign. And over the years in LA, you get to know a lot of the people who come up to you with, you know, they've got a million pictures of you and you sign them and you know they're going to sell them. But some of the ones you know over the years, I'll be nice to them and I'll sign a few and we say, hey, how's the family, whatever. But the thing about it

nowadays is you used to be able to run into fans at the mall or wherever you are. And you never thought about, is this the guy who said that shit about me? You know, because sometimes they are. Oh yeah. So to your face, they'll say, hey, will you sign my hat? You know? And they may go straight home to their computer and say, what an asshole. I met him today. You know? Even though I'm nice to him.

Yeah. So because if somebody has a bee up their ass about you, they're just going to have it. And there's nothing you can do about it. So I think I have mellowed a lot over the years uh and one of one of the things that i know for sure i'm still open to the fans i don't care as long as people are nice to me i'm nice to them and i'll sign stuff all day i'll talk to them all day um but one thing uh even though the internet thing is kind of creepy, um, there's, there's something that's still around that, uh, that I, I kind of, you know, it makes me, uh, a little uncomfortable. And that is the fact that it's this interest in people yeah that was there

even before the internet where when they had the fan magazines even back in the 30s and 40s and stuff and this this interest in people's uh pain or scandal yeah or whatever is. I think that's always been there, you know? And I don't quite understand that part of human nature, you know, why people like to see someone who becomes successful at anything, why they like to see them fall. And I think that was there. We just didn't know it was there to the degree to which it's there. Yeah.

That's been a recurring Hollywood theme since we had Hollywood. Yeah. And people love building somebody up, knocking them back down, and then they love the comeback. Affleck's like the greatest example of this, right? Right. Good Will Hunting. Right. Meteoric Rise.

Oh, Dates J-Lo. Right. Everybody picks that apart left and right. example of this right right good will hunting right meteoric rise oh you dates jlo all right everybody picks that apart left and right the crash yeah and then he claws his way back and say yeah ben affleck he's back it's like yeah you everybody stomped him down yeah it's weird yeah there is a there is a cyclical nature to it that it doesn't seem to matter pre-internet, post-internet, like whatever. It's always going to be the case. And we also have to be more careful these days. That's one thing that's changed is that when you're doing an interview now, I mean, I used to be – I was famous for giving funny interviews and sort of like wild interviews.

Right. I would just say anything. And now somebody asks you a question and there's like a pause. You got to like calculate what happened. You can't answer the way you, I mean, because we're just two guys sitting here at a table talking and we could have the greatest conversation, you know, and you could do that before and you can't do it anymore because you say one wrong thing, you know, and it's like, but hang on a second, I didn't mean it that way.

And then the next step is after you've said the thing that offended, you know, 50 or 60% of the people in the world or whatever, which I don't even know how, you know, how you do that, but evidently it's a thing. But once you offend people like that, then you have two choices. You can either say, I'm not apologizing for that. I meant it and I stand by it. And then they think you're an asshole. Yeah. Or you can apologize and they say, oh, the only reason he apologizes is to save his career.

So, in other words, it doesn't matter what you do, you're going to be vilified. You just have to move to Antarctica. Right. Exactly. Get an igloo. But then eventually something comes back out again or you rescued a dog that was about to be hit by a car or something. And the next thing you know, you're back up there. Or you make a good movie or a TV show and people are like, oh, I always liked that guy.

I know. Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, I always liked him. Great time back. But, you know, I'll tell you something that with age that really has happened to me that's interesting is that the sort of envy or jealousy that I may have had at one point, say back in the 80s when I was playing Thug No. 3 on Matlock or whatever. Yeah, you were great. You know, and you're right.

And so, you know, but you would see like the actor who was more successful than you, who was in your theater group or in your acting class or whatever. And I remember longing to be, it's like, why am I not that guy? You know, I mean, he's okay, but I mean, you know. And that went away years ago for me. And in other words, if I see Tom Cruise, who's a peer, I mean, you know, we came up in the same time or Travolta or me and, you know, you guys are my buddies. You know, Costner or Dennis Quaid or, you know, any of these guys, you know. Tom Hanks, you know.

When I see these guys doing something that I'm not in, you know, I think, yeah, I could have been good at that part. I'm all for them. And I don't get that sort of thing and also we do different stuff i don't do the kind of roles tom cruise does but there might have been a time when i might have said well why why am i not starring in risky business or whatever it is you know what i mean yeah i mean of course uh you know having a as my old buddy uh tour manager tom used to say when you have a face like a foot, you're not going to be in risky business anyway.

But I, you know, I was actually told one time, I said, yeah, you're too ugly to be a leading man, but you're not ugly enough to be a character actor. And yeah. What does that even mean? Well, I totally got it. So just. I got it.

It's like, you're going to be able to play leading man parts, but you're also going to be able to play character parts. Oh. That's what he meant. So it was like a weird little compliment. Yeah, it was. And Billy Wilder's the guy who told me that. So it was pretty cool.

But. Oh, that was the guy who convinced you to. Right. To write screenplays, right? Yeah, he was. Yeah. What happens if you don't meet him? You're probably still doing it anyway.

Yeah, I mean, I was headed in that direction, but what he gave me was really, it was more confirmation than anything else. Right, that one person. Yeah, and Stanley Kramer was really good to me also. Did you have a part before Sling Blade that you were up for and almost got and didn't get that would have fast forwarded

everything for you a little bit? You know, I read for a few things, you know, you know, back in the eighties, you read for things. I mean, and back then, you know, you go in for whatever you can. So there were a lot more TV auditions. There were movie auditions. So yeah, I would audition for Hunter or i don't know whatever was on because you never did like the tv series on the 1991 nbc short-lived legal drama yeah i never did that so uh i became known from movies and but i did audition for some things uh there was a movie called leaving normal i, that I got close to getting the part of like the third or fourth lead in it, which would have been a big part, but the movie ended

up not doing anything anyway. I don't remember if it was a Universal movie or something, but it was one of the big studios. I know Christine Lottie and Meg Tilly, I think were the stars of it. And, uh, I read for that and, uh, they brought me in and it got down to me and one other guy. And for me at that time, that would have been a huge thing, even though the movie didn't do great. Uh, it would have, I would have been more known in the business through the casting people and all that kind of stuff. It would have helped. And I think Ed Zwick directed the movie.

Oh, yeah, 30-something guy. Yeah, so I think he directed it, and I read for Ed, yeah. Did you know Halle Berry had that in her, that performance? You could tell pretty early on she did when she came to meet with me and Mark Forster, the director,

she was very passionate about that part and he and I looked at each other and said, yeah, yeah. And you had the juice at that point to decide who your co-star was going to be? Yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of times you do. I mean, I think you never stop having that juice when you're the lead of something, you know.

So you had to make sure something had to be there. Something had to be there. And we knew it was. And she did an amazing job. We had a great working relationship, too. I mean, she was very, very so into the part that it was infectious, you know. And there were other great people in that movie, too. I mean, Peter Boyle.

Yeah. And Heath did an amazing job, you know. Did Heath get nominated for that? No, no. No, no. Just Hallie. He was. Did you?

No. I mean, at that point, that was when his career really took off as a dramatic actor. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I knew him as like the 10 things I hate about you guys. Sure, yeah. Stuff like that. I was like, holy shit. What's going on here?

He did an amazing job, and so did Peter Boyle. And Mos Def did a great job. He had a small part, but he was really good. What a natural actor that guy is. That's a great movie. It's not the most rewatchable movie. Yeah, it's intense. It's tough.

It's so intense. It's not how you relax on the weekend. No. It's not like, oh, cool, Monster's Ball is on. I'm going to watch this for the next time. And by the way, Sean Combs did a great job as the guy. So how many more seasons is Goliath going? Well, I think they're inclined to do another one.

You know, I mean, it's been very successful. Do you get an Amazon Prime discount or anything? No, the only thing I got, I don't, that's what I got. I got a free Alexa, you know. Some Whole Foods discounts? Yeah. Well, when they bought Whole Foods, I thought, well, I'm in the money. This would be great. I mean, I'm just going to walk in there and just pick shit off the shelf, and I can't even get arrested for it. Yeah. Man, I haven't gotten anything yet. I got to talk to them about that. How often do you go back to Arkansas? I don't have anybody there anymore.

My family all lives in Northern California. So they live in San Jose, and the rest of my family's in Texas. So when I go home, I go to Texas or Northern California. And my friends even all moved away from there. All my buddies, most of them moved to Texas, the guys I hung out with. A few went to Chicago, Kansas City. Everybody kind of got out of there in my little town.

Are you top four best Arkansas success stories? It's like you, Bill Clinton. Yeah, I'm in there, yeah. I mean, usually the- Who else is it? Johnny Cash. Oh, Johnny Cash. Yeah.

If you look at that state in terms of cinema, I come up first because, you know, there weren't a whole lot of actors out there. Well, Mary Steenmerge. Not a lot of improv groups in Arkansas. No. You know, the Groundlings, very few people know the Groundlings started in Hot Springs, but then they moved here over on Melrose. But at that time, it was called the Possums.

Yeah. Yeah. But, no, I mean, you know, there's a few back there. Mary Steenburgen's one

that came out of Arkansas. Yeah. But in the old days, Alan Ladd was from Hot Springs, which is where I'm from. Alan Ladd and Dick Powell

were two of the old time. And Julie Adams, and I don't know if you know who Julie Adams is were two of the old time. And Julie Adams. And I don't know if you know who Julie Adams is. I remember the first two. Did you ever see the creature from the Black Lagoon? Of course. Well, the girl who he's carrying along. Oh, wow.

Yeah, she's from my hometown. Yeah, so. But you're an Indianapolis Colts fan? Yeah, I was a Baltimore Colts fan. Who are your sports teams? I'm a diehard St. Louis Cardinal fan. I even have the key chain on right now. I'm very happy right now.

Are you like watching games on your phone type fan? Oh, I'm every second. See someone they ruined Kimbrel on Saturday in the Cubs game? Yeah, I know, right? Two homers of the day. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the fact that they went in there and took four from the Cubs at Wrigley hasn't been done since 1921. And those were. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the fact that they went in there and took four from the Cubs at Wrigley hasn't been done since 1921.

And those are good crowds, too. I only care about the Red Sox. And I actually watched those games, the Saturday game and some of the Sunday game. I had it on just because I was like, this is intense. The crowd was nice and drunk and ready to roll. Those are big fans there. It's a good battle. It are big fans there. Yeah. I mean.

It's a good battle. It's a good rivalry. Yeah. Cubs-Cardinals is great. You see a lot of Cardinal fans at Wrigley. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of red in that crowd. Because you get the ticket stuff now. It's so easy to get in the secondary market.

Absolutely. Just go in and get them. So you're feeling good. They're just down the road. Yeah. I'm feeling very good. Are you a go-to-the-World Series type of fan? Oh, yeah, yeah.

I was at the 2006 World Series, you know, and I didn't go to any of the 2011. You know, that year when we beat the Rangers, that was an impossible season, you know. Yes. The fact that they won the World Series. How about the last two games? I mean, those are like two of the craziest.

The last strike, twice. And besides that, Atlanta had to lose all three games, their last three games for the Cardinals to ever get in there. I think it was Atlanta. Yeah. They had to lose three games at the end of the season for the Cardinals to even be eligible for the playoffs or something like that. I mean, there's some kind of weird thing like that. Well, I love the Cardinals. To get in the wild card, because they started as a wild card that year. I love the Cardinals because they were our 04 World Series opponent. Oh yeah, I know. And then 2013. That's right. Because when I was growing up, they beat us in 47 and they beat us in- 67. No, 46 and 67. Yeah. And seven games in 67. Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly.

I remember it very well. So they kind of, it was in the back of the head in 04. That was the Bob Gibson days. Oh, yeah. That was really, yeah. But, you know, the great thing about the Cardinals is the Cardinal fans are real baseball fans. I mean, they get it. I mean, it's like, you know, Yankee fans and Red Sox fans are obviously, you know, old

school fans. But in terms of being like the knowledge of the game, you can see like a, you know, an 80-year-old woman on the Cardinals stands with her scorecard, you know, and she knows everything about baseball. And also the Cardinal fans were very cool to opposing teams, which I always thought they got a lot of class with the opposition. Right. Like you'll hear a tiny rumble of boos

when the opposing pitcher makes a pickoff move to first, but not much. They get it. They know what's going on. Boston fans maybe not as understanding. Philly fans. Philly fans are the worst. Philly fans. I mean, forget it.

They're just angry. I got to tell you. I mean, anytime you go to jail at your stadium, you know what I mean? Something's going on. But the great thing about Philly, though, is if they like you in Philly, they love you. Yeah. Like our band when we played Philly, they love us there. But boy, if they don't like you, you're done. But for some reason, I connect with the people in Philadelphia, but I've had,

I got a couple of friends who were pitchers for the Cardinals and they said, like old time guys, you know. Like I know Bruce Suter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was great. Oh, great. Back in the days when closers could throw 150 innings. Yeah, exactly.

I know, right? Yeah. And they also didn't have to throw 105 miles an hour. No. You had closers who threw like, you know, their fastball was like 85. This is why these guys are having Tommy John surgery. Like they throw too hard. Yeah. Your body's not meant to just crank out a hundred miles an hour over and over and over again. Oh, I know. Well, you know, they say this kid, Jordan Hicks has been clocked at like 108 or 10,

you know, it's like, that's insane. Yeah, that's, that's pretty crazy. So anyway, but Suter said that, and some other guys told me that back in the old days, Philly fans, like they didn't have like a covering over the, you know, where the clothes. Oh, where the bullpen is, yeah. And so they said they just dumped beers on their heads and all kind of stuff you know back in the old days but uh i remember i went to a america mexico soccer game 10 years ago in azteca and mexico city yeah in the corner kick there was one side where you do you know in the corner we have to the corner kick but it was pretty close right and it was just like and the

mexican fans would bring stuff to throw to the, throw on the opposing players. It wasn't just beer. It was like bags of piss. It was like dog shit. Oh yeah. And so those guys, so the guys are running over and doing the quarter kick as fast as possible because they're getting pulled into this stuff.

But yeah. That's amazing. America doesn't, that stuff doesn't really fly. Philly is really our last place for any sort of behavior like that. Yeah. But even they're pretty mellow at this point. The days of people going into the stands and fighting

fans, I think, are pretty much bad. Oh, I remember going to a Raiders game. Yeah, maybe I should say the Raiders. We still have the Raiders fans. I went to a Raiders game. They were, and this was back in the 80s. It was when the Raiders were here.

Oh, the LA Raiders. The LA Raiders. And they were playing the Bengals. And I went with a couple of buddies of mine and we were in like a section with a lot of Raiders fans. And it was terrifying. I mean, it was like. They're not messing around. Yeah. It was like, it was like sitting there with a bunch of Vikings who were actual Vikings just transported to these days. You know? And, I mean, when you're wearing all that, you know what they look like?

It's like, you know the band GWAR? Yeah. It was like sitting there with GWAR. Oh, my God. Who were really angry with silver faces. Yeah. It was... And you were in Blood In, Blood Out,

and that wasn't as scary as the Raiders game. Some parts of Blood In, Blood Out were much scarier than the Raiders game, yes. We were in San Quentin, so. They had the real San Quentin people there, right? Oh, yeah, they did. Oh, yeah. They told me to pick out my gang,

because I played the Aryan Brotherhood guy, and they said, go get your guys that you want around you. All those guys. So you got to pick the real inmates? Yeah. It's like a fantasy draft. Well, I was lightning and the other guy, you know, Tom Tolles played him. The big guy with the bald head, right?

We were the only two actors in that bunch. There was guys that we picked. I had no idea. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. I would want to watch it again, except it's not available anywhere. All right, Goliath season three, October 4th. That's it.

And there's going to be more seasons after this. We think they're inclined to do at least one more. My mom loves this show. I just had to tell you that. My mom is a TV connoisseur on the streaming side. But yeah, this is good. Please tell her thank you. She loves any character,

like the one you're playing on this show, is always in her wheelhouse. Oh, cool. It's beaten down, but yet, but there's still some good in him, but he might fuck this up at any time. Exactly. That's right in her wheelhouse.

Story of my life, actually. Billy Bob, thank you. Thanks. All right. Thanks to Kyle. Thanks to Sepawal. Thanks to Billy Bob. Thanks to ZipRecruiter.

Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to Spotify where you can find the hottest take our new short, really fun podcast. Follow us there.

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coming tomorrow. Until then.