The Bill Simmons Podcast - Ant Man Arrives, Towns Tumbles, Nets-Celts & “Now What?” Round 1 Disaster Scenarios With Kevin O’Connor and Wosny Lambre

Episode Date: April 13, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O’Connor and Wosny Lambre to discuss the Nets’ win over the Cavaliers and the Timberwolves’ win over the Clippers in the NBA play-in tournament (1:50). Then Bill and Kevin discuss the Lakers’ disappointing season, head coach Frank Vogel being fired, what to do with Russell Westbrook’s contract, LeBron James’s future, what certain teams may do if they face a first-round exit from the playoffs (45:48), and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin O’Connor and Wosny Lambre Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Coming up on this podcast, we're going to talk some basketball. Kevin O'Connor, Wosney Lambree, they're going to come on. We're going to talk about Minnesota versus the Clippers, which, again, that was just laden with storylines. And then Brooklyn and the Celtics

and what's going to happen there. And then KOC stuck around and we talked about the bizarre Lakers season as well as what are they going to do with Westbrook, as well as the worst case scenarios for each team heading into the next two weeks. What happens if everything goes wrong for Team X? KOC and I, we break it down.

And that's that. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this. It is 9.30 Tuesday night. What a night. What a night for people that love basketball. KOC is here. Big Waz is here.

I don't know where to begin. It was kind of secretly another Clippers choke job. It was Carl Anthony Towns submitting his resume for the Ewing Theory, and it was accepted immediately. It was the breakout game for the Ant-Man, who I think the diehards love, but maybe the casual fans hadn't really seen him in action. It was a classic heat check D'Angelo Russell game. You saw good D'Angelo tonight.

And most importantly, KOC, a feel-good Minnesota basketball moment. We haven't had a lot of those. Have they had one, what, since 2004? I can't even remember the last time. No, it was such a beautiful moment when she glued her hand to the floor. That's true.

And the wind was great, too. Waz, do you want us to clear out of the dance floor and let you dance on the Towns topic? Do you want to do that now or later? What do you got? You know, there's certain nerd NBA circles who debate the efficacy of having Carl Towns as your

guy, right? Meaning like, all right, he's this great offensive player, but he's not the most, I don't know, cerebral cat when it comes to awareness on the court. He stinks it up on defense. And then offensively, like, Ty Lue just, they pinched this dude straight up. Like, he looked horrible.

I can find his stat line. It was 11 points. I think it was four turnovers, six fouls. It's just like, just really, really bad. And there's people who would argue like you'd much rather have a guy like

Bam Adebayo or Rudy Gobert because even though they don't, they can't get you 30, they are not going to kill you on either end of the floor the way Towns does on defense. And then, of course, in this game, he leaves the game and the Clippers

basically don't score the rest of the way. It's incredible. With the Bill Belichick of basketball coaching them, Ty Lue. That was an anecdote dropped during the broadcast in the second half. Unironically from Kevin Harlan. Some people call him the Bill Belichick of

basketball. What people? Can I beat that? KOC. Insulting to Belichick. Yeah, that was tough. KOC and I were mad. Minus 14 for Cat in 24 minutes, plus 9 in 24 minutes without him. You're right.

Ewing Theory candidate there. At least tonight. I mean, Cat's an unbelievable offensive player, but all of his flaws, the lack of composure, the inability to consistently defend. Some of the decisions he made, like that last rebound he went for to get that sixth foul. What are you doing in that moment? How about a fourth foul in the first half of a playoff game, even though we're not allowed to call it a playoff game? It didn't exist. The good thing for him is the game didn't exist. Basketball reference is like, we have no

category for this game. It's not a regular season game. It's not game didn't exist. Basketball reference is like, we have no category for this game. It's not a regular season game. It's not a playoff game. KFC, you're the most rational out of the three of us. Waz and I, we work hot. We've worked hot from time to time. KFC likes to be a little more rational.

That's one game for towns, right? We can't overreact, right? Because that was the lowercase caps, lower stakes version of some of the worst games we've had in the history of the NBA. I'm talking like, you know, John Stark's Game 7. I'm talking about DJ going 0 for 14 in Game 7 of the 1978 Finals. And I wrote down a couple, actually. Oh, James Harden, Game 6, 2017.

Kmart, 2003 Finals, Game six, three for 23 against Tim Duncan, who almost had a quadruple double. We've had some Hall of Fame stinkers on big stages. This is like the little pigs in a blanket appetizer version of it, but really bad. Can he bounce back from this? I think he needs to learn from it. I mean, he's in year seven, 26 years old.

How long are we going to talk about his lack of experience before it turns into consistency on the big stage? And for Kat, you would hope this is a learning experience for him to stay chill. Don't commit stupid fouls. Don't put yourself in a position where the officials can call a foul on a night they're calling everything. So for Carl Anthony Towns, people made fun of him for calling himself the mvp rightfully so but ultimately this guy is an unbelievable offensive talent he did get better defensively too so there's a path forward for him to continue to get better and in this series against the grizzlies he's going to have his hands full though against jaron jackson jr against stephen adams against that grizzlies front. So for Cat, that growing up needs to happen really fast.

See, you used a great word there, KOC. You said composure. There just was none. And I think that the counterfactual, or not even the counterfactual, the opposite was happening when Nas Reed came in the game. He was like, wait, I'm way bigger than Nicola batum and the morris twin i don't need to press i can just get to my spot shoot directly over a guy who's six foot six carl towns look to be pressing the entire freaking game and you know some of the credit has to go to ty lue and they

did they what they what i thought was brilliant it wasn't just that they did the stuff where they got Zub hanging out by the basket, not guarding the worst three-point shooter on the Wolves and then they're putting just a wing on Towns. I thought that was cool. Just the idea of mixing it up against a guy who's clearly frazzled and clearly hasn't diagnosed the defense

and what he wants to do on a possession by possession basis. That was the dope thing that Ty Lue did to me. However, as great as he was with the defensive game plan, Minnesota is the best offense in the NBA by offensive rating. They played good enough defense to win tonight. What they did on offense down the stretch, I don't understand. And Ty Lue, honestly, is supposed to be an offensive coach. They took the line against Zubac in the game, I thought.

It was a bad last six minutes for him. Yeah, I don't want to dump on Town too much because there was a lot of good Minnesota subpots. Absolutely, yep. But I thought it was hilarious that A-Rod was there. A-Rod part owner. His first game is watching his high price star

just completely melt down. And I think I always feel this way. Two things I love, especially as I get older with basketball, I love experience in playoff games. And I love home court advantage. I value it. Like I know we're going to talk about Brooklyn later. I value having that game seven at home against Brooklyn.

I don't think it matters in every arena. I think it matters in some. I thought it really mattered tonight, especially where you really see the home crowds matter is when you have the young athletic team, like that Minnesota team. Somebody like Ant-Man, you're getting superpowers. It's going through you like electricity. There was that moment when near the end with Ant-Man, when he's at the top and he waved away the pick and he had Morris on him and Miller saw it. Miller's like, got to use your speed.

Just go by him. And he went by him. Zubac came over. He just went flying into him like a running back. It was just genuinely exciting. KFC, I rationally love Ant-Man. I just love him. I love watching him. I think he's thrilling. He's exciting. He reminds me, he's not a basketball player. It almost is like watching a football player who knows how to play basketball. Some of the stuff he does

is so unique. Who do you compare him to? Who is he like like is he like anybody i mean right now in the nba a downhill muscular i mean it's i hate to even invoke the word lebron but like it's the type of body it's just so six four lebron yeah it's just so unusual on the basketball court and the fact that he's turned into the player that he has and only 20 years old right now i mean because it's not just the scoring even his passing has improved in his now his second season out of georgia so with him at this stage like we're talking about some of the flaws with cat with who he is and how he needs to improve as a player but anthony edwards at age 20 if he continues to ascend he's going to grow into the type of guy that carl anthony towns

needs by his side as the leader, the vocal guy, the alpha on the team where Cat can play off of that. And for Edwards to be in the spot that he is right now, it's pretty outstanding. And I hope he continues moving forward against Memphis, playing with this downhill attacking mentality because he gets to the rim a lot. But I think he's equipped to get to the rim even more. I think it was 37% of his baskets came at the rim this season. If he can get that up to 45% or so, closer to even half in a series against Memphis, that's going to be a real positive indicator for Minnesota. and they were writing about it. They were like, he was just, had some knee sore and stuff. The, was with, with that man, when you think about the fearlessness,

there was that moment, they're up six, it's like 70 seconds left and Russell does the driving kick to him and he's wide open. And you could feel like through the TV, the arena is like,

if he makes this three, it's actually going to be mass chaos in the arena. It's going to be a riot, like an actual one. And he gets so excited, he makes this three, it's actually going to be mass chaos in the arena. It's going to be a riot, like an actual one. And he gets so excited, he airballs it, right? Right. But the great thing about him is like, it's not like, if that happened to Ben Simmons,

he might've gone into a spiral, right? Like Ben Simmons, oh my God, I can't believe I missed that. Or even somebody like Towns. I think Towns can get rattled. And man, like the next play, it was like it never happened. He's like the goldfish swimming around the bowl, which is one of the things I love about him. Yeah, you got to love his temperament.

I've been in the tank for him. Basically, once I realized that the jump shot was there, in the sense you couldn't just Tony Allen this kid, like you got to actually get up on his jump shot. And so his athleticism is going to exploit you. And I think these guys who can finish at the cup over length, who can still shoot it, um, and are faster than everybody, like they're the most valuable commodities in the game. Right. Um, that's why it's really exciting that Minnesota has them on the team. And again, to compare him to Carl Towns,

I think another thing that is underrated here is like, if he's playing with Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry, he's getting the ball in better positions than he has to play with right now. But he needs that, right? Like it's, like it's, it's a prerequisite to him being fully realized in his talents and his potential. Whereas Anthony Edwards is like, no, just inbound the ball to me and I'll do the rest. I'll get it out of the rim. Don't send me a pick. Get that pick away from me.

I don't need anything. I need nothing. Just inbound the ball. And that's so valuable. And you guys talk about comparison. He kind of reminds me of, and people are not going to remember this because they're not washed up like us, Bill. But he reminds me of and people not gonna remember this because they're not washed up like us bill but he reminds me of milwaukee ray allen back when he still had the hops back when he still had the quickness he had the handle he was shifty like that and he used to dunk on people too yeah

obviously hell of an actor obviously we know he's not gonna be we know um anthony edwards is not gonna be able to uh shoot like Ray Allen because he's one of the best ever but they do remind me of each other in that sense how about like a better better Victor Oladipo too like a bigger like a taller better yeah the guy that now I'm really dating myself the guy that he really reminds me of is this is what young JR Ryder was like this was like UNLV early Minnesota Minnesota, ironically Minnesota, but same kind of thing. Just power, speed, athleticism. When he was really feeling it, would feed off the crowd, all that stuff. And it's going to be interesting. On the one hand, he's the perfect

guy for Towns. On the other hand, you kind of want to put him with some of the people that were out there, right? Beverly, who's a maniac. Nas Reed, who was completely ready for that game. Vanderbilt. Russell, who the best thing and the worst thing about him is he always thinks he's the best player on the floor in those games. Tonight he was making a shot. Still not one of my favorites.

But I just wonder long-term, is Towns part of this? Or would that be, will they eventually move the team toward Ant-Man? Is it like a combo thing? I guess we're going to find out. KOC, our guy Verno, is a little worried about heading into a Grizzlies T-Wolves series for a couple reasons. One, they had really good games this year. It's just like really young, athletic, fun games.

But then there's the Beverly factor and some of the stuff Beverly does. Whether it was going to be Chris Paul or John Morant, he's like a hockey enforcer. He's like the guys in your NHL team. You're like, oh man, that guy's in the series? I know my guy's going to get slashed.

So I do think this has a chance to be a great series. How do you handicap it? I'm picking Memphis and I'd pick it in five or six in the series still but Minnesota certainly is going to present challenges and with Beverly I mean like it's just so funny watching it today it's just WWE style the way he gets excited with the crowd I love it but ultimately in this series though like the question for Memphis is going to be, can they answer that really aggressive pick and roll defense from Minnesota? They blitz or show in the pick and roll 15 times per game. That's number two in the NBA behind Portland.

And ultimately here, the Bucs and Nuggets are the only other two teams that do it over 10 times. So few teams are that aggressive in the pick and roll. They're switching or dropping. That's what most teams do. And Minnesota's different. And the interesting thing here is that the Grizzlies, one of the things they're worst at doing on offense

is scoring against the Blitz. So Ja Morant scores only.86 points per chance according to the second spectrum when he's blitzed or showed against in the pick and roll. That's 17th of 18th of the players that have been against 200 times being showed or blitzed against. So ultimately here for Memphis and Ja, this is again, another area and opportunity for growth. How can you answer a pick and roll defense that is being aggressive against you?

Well, I think with Triple J, he's got to be able to make some plays as well, which hasn't always been his strong suit, right? Making plays with the ball. But I think there are going to be some opportunities there. But, you know, Memphis is another well-coached group. Their guy is going to win coach of the year this season. And I think it's for good reason. He's always got putting them in good spots. And he's got them prepared.

And I think they'll have adjustments for a blitz pick and roll um in a seven game series i personally wanted to see the clippers play them because i wanted to see a young team have to problem solve is against such a veteran laden group i thought against the bill belichick of basketball like what are they going to have in their sleeve for him against the bill belichick belichick junior round ball yeah i wanted to see see that, but this will be a great treat as well, just the amount of talent and athleticism that will be on display. And I think both teams are going to have tremendous home crowds. Minnesota, they were up for the challenge today. And I'm sure Memphis is going to have incredible crowds too.

So this will be a great, great series. And I do want to say one thing about D'Lo because he was terrible in the first quarter. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah, here we go with him. He's going to switch everything on him. He's going to do his step back routine. It's going to be horrible.

But then he started operating in the pick and roll, getting people in jail, hitting stuff in floater range. He made his threes. I was like, okay, this is the theory of the guy that his cult following on the internet always screaming at people about um but so it was nice to see it for the last three quarters like without like without him being that like a legitimate all-star level player they don't win this game i agree with that he's one of my least favorite uh players even though

he seems like a nice guy I don't like his game I'd judge him by the whole would he be fun to play with I'm still pissed about what he did to Nick Young oh I forgot about that yeah that was a long time ago now just kidding broke up the guys relationship it's fine

he was young D'Lo's underrated. I think he's underrated. Super efficient iso score, pick and roll, dribble handoff. He does what the Minnesota Timberwolves ask him to do, and he does it very well. This year, they put him in this rover role, off ball on defense, and granted, he's still not that good defensively.

He was better than he was before, and the ball was low, but at least it's higher now. And I think it's just positive to see that type of progress from D'Lo overall on both ends of the court. He does what the team asks him to do and he does it well. I like some of their guys. I like Vanderbilt too. I had him. I did a FanDuel same

game parlay where I had him with the over for the rebounds. Of course, he had three points, but he had like 12 rebounds. Really good defense. And he's just like, he he had like 12 rebounds. Really good defense. And he's just like, he's a playoff guy. So is Nas Reed. Like they have,

so is Beverly. You go down the line, Beasley, who wasn't really effective tonight, but he'll have a game in a seven game series where he scores like 32 and hits six threes. And you're like,

who's this guy? Why doesn't he make more money? And it's like, yeah, you're catching him on a good night. But they have those guys. We're going to take a break and come back. Let's talk about the Clippers and then the other game. Hey, in the NBA playing tournament,

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Yet another agonizing Clippers loss. Just par for the course for them. But yet, the caveat this time around, they get another game. Again, this isn't quite a playoff game. There's no record of it. It doesn't exist. So I don't know if we get to add this to the Clipper playoff collapse or not because it wasn't a playoff game. They're going to play the winner of New Orleans San Antonio

just quickly. KOC. Am I crazy or is New Orleans kind of a bad matchup for them? I actually feel like New Orleans can win that game. What do you think? I mean, that assumes New Orleans beats San Antonio. Yeah, I'm assuming. I'm assuming they win.

Okay, I mean, that's going to be a good game too. San Antonio isn't a slouch team either. But with the Pelicans, yeah. People talk about not having Zion, but the roster they put together with CJ McCollum, Larry Nance, Jonas Valanciunas, Herb Jones. Our guy, Herb Jones. Herb Jones is hipster Twitter favorite

for sure. I put him on all defense. You have him second team forward, Bill? And I put him first team all rookie. I put him over Jalen Green. Fuck Jalen Green. I don't care you're scoring 40 points and your team's 19 and 60. Congratulations.

Kurt Jones is like guarding dudes at real games. Bill, when I look back at my ballot this year, it's very impossible. Now the Houston people are going to be mad at me. I'm sorry. I like winning players. I'm sorry. Jalen Green will get there. It's just that team was 21 and 61 this year

or whatever. Anyway, sorry, Kessie. I was saying when I look back at my ballot years from now, I think what I might regret most, Bill, though, even though I love Herb Jones so much, Jalen Green was awesome. He was. It's fine. He's been awesome.

I agree. Forget about the defense. Jalen Green, again, another guy who reminds me of Ant Edwards in the sense that he has all of the tools he's already shown enough touch that he's not going to be a horrible shooter nobody can stay in front of this kid

nobody he put some stuff together at the end of the year I liked what I saw but mainly Bill C like for me the Rockets people got all up in my ass over this shengoon stuff and i like shengoon too it made my point for me though bill there was all the shengoon shengoon oh my god oh my god and i'm like guys like he's never gonna be better than jalen green like this is and jalen green was getting nothing and at the end of the

year he finally showing people what he's got. And trust me, the volume on Jalen Green has not been part of the Shangoon nonsense. So, yeah, I'm with you, KOC. Jalen Green has been incredible to watch. I'm pro Jalen Green. I just didn't think he was one of the best five rookies. But we also had an iconic rookie class. I think that was one of the best rookie classes we've had.

Clippers, let's say they lose the second playing game. Now, they're going to be home on Friday night. It's been mixed results. They've had some awesome comebacks. They had that great comeback against Utah. There's also been some memories like the Rockets game, but it would kind of be incredible if they lost the playing game on Friday

and they were out. And that was year three of Kawhi and Paul George, where we look back and we're like, wow, this is what, I mean, because the Lakers are getting all the, I mean, people are still talking about the Lakers. KOC and I are going to talk about them a little bit later. But the Clippers, bad luck.

Can't do anything about bad luck, but all the stuff they traded away, you look at it, and it's like, wow, they lose the playing game? That's now a three-year run of nothing that I can remember, really. So I would say there's some stakes, even though the game doesn't matter. Who do you like

in that game, Wes? I think the Clippers are going to find a way to beat the freaking spurs or the even the you know the juggernaut pelicans with with cj mccollum um but you know i'm actually just a little bit more bummed out about this year just like i mentioned i wanted them to play memphis we're just going to watch them play the exact same series that they did against phoenix in the first round from last year. And we know how that outcome is going to go. Phoenix is going to kind of outmatch them. As far as what you said about, you know, what the results have been since putting Kawhi and Paul George together.

Look, man, Kawhi couldn't finish two postseasons. You know, what like what are you supposed to do when something like that happens? And that was part of the risk in bringing him in. He was coming off of major injuries when they brought the guy in. So I don't think anybody should be particularly surprised. And Kevin Arnavitz put something out in ESPN where he's like, look, like a lot of these like non-homegrown super team things haven't really worked out. Like the Clippers thing hasn't really worked out. The Brooklyn thing is like that's been an entire mess since the summer that they signed

Kyrie and KD. And so, yeah, it's kind of crazy that it's worked out this way. And again. How about Philly? Don't forget to throw Philly in there. We'll get to Philly. There's a lot of side eyeing already happening on that team. And, you know, to bring up the Pelicans again, I'll just never forget 2019 at Summer League.

Everybody thought David Griffin was a genius because he traded Anthony Davis for a bunch of picks. Everybody was mocking the Lakers for not getting Kawhi Leonard. And like the Clippers are going to steamroll people and it's over and all of this. And what have been the results of all of that stuff that's happened between those two teams? It's just, you know, it's just a reminder that we need to take a little bit longer view when we're making assessments of these transactions. Because I'm telling you, the consensus was that the Clippers were going to destroy people in perpetuity forever because they brought in Paul George and Kawhi Leonard.

And they've gotten to the conference finals in a weird way, but that's it. Was that the consensus at the time though with the Clippers? I thought they gave up a lot. Throw an SGA in that trade.

Look up all the stuff that people were writing and saying about that Clippers deal. In fact, I lived it because I was going to Clippers games every single day that first season that they got Kawhi. And there was this inevitability of the Clippers. They got so much wing depth. Kawhi's a Terminator. It was crazy. They've got nothing to show for it.

That doesn't mean that it was right to to frame him that way though because like with kawaii leonard being as injury prone as he is i think anybody you know looking at that from a rational standpoint we know there's a chance this collapses he gets hurt and one of the biggest games granted they still come back and beat utah he misses this entire season well like we knew after the whole san antonio shenanigans that this is part of it with kawaii he's injury prone and he's on his own timeline and there's nothing you can do about it. And for the Clippers here, though, despite that, the fact, look,

we were making fun of Lou being Bill Belichick basketball, but the fact they're in this position with this team, if you add Kawhi Leonard on top of this, they might be, you know, not the finals favorite ahead of Phoenix, but pretty close to it. Yeah, I would have them second. All right, Brooklyn, Cleveland.

So Brooklyn wins. Kyrie and Durant look awesome. Not surprising. Cleveland plays terrible, except for two guys. Mobley was good and Garland was good and had some really good moments. They got Okoro and Osman, I i think 34 minutes zero points marketing had some of the worst moments i i just i i did a tweet about kd moments in the third or early fourth where he was like staying it with kd that i was like holy hell i've never seen yeah for that but then he'll just leave malone for wide open three. Kevin Love is just at the point.

He's at his point of his career. And Jared Allen, who has a fractured finger on his left hand from five weeks ago, just sat this one out. I guess maybe they're saving him for the other playing game because they thought this Brooklyn thing. My point is, you add everything up and it's like, why didn't Brooklyn win that game by 20? Cleveland's hanging around. There's a couple moments and it's like, why didn't Brooklyn win that game by 20? Cleveland's hanging around.

There was a couple moments. I see where you're going with this. A couple moments when it seemed like it was going to be like a one possession game and I didn't even think they were playing remotely well. Kyrie was 12 for 12 at one point. And it just speaks to, Barkley said this after the game,

I just think this Nets team, it's two guys. And I don't know where the rest of it's going to come when they're playing either Boston or Milwaukee. KD came out of that game, and it was like, oh my God, how long can they make it? KD's going to have to play 44 minutes a game in this Boston series, KOC.

Did you see anything from them tonight that made you change your opinion on the Boston Brooklyn thing? Not change my opinion, but like KD and Kyrie should still be feared. Yeah, I agree. I fear them. No, I mean, no doubt about it. Like they still are a major threat. And with Boston switching near the top of the league

and pick and rolls, handoffs, any type of situation, and the Nets being better than just about anybody at scoring after a switch and isolations that that is definitely, you know, contrasting styles here and Brooklyn is the type of team with Katie and Kyrie that can defeat that. Would I pick them in a series against Boston? No, and there's nothing I saw in that game against Cleveland that would increase confidence about that.

If anything, I come away from that game feeling even more strongly about the need for Ben Simmons to return, even if it's He's not coming back. Even if it's 15, 20 minutes per game. He's not playing. It's not happening. Maybe he won't. And even if he does, he might not be. It's not a maybe he won't. He's not playing next round. I don't think Ben Simmons off the street is going to be like so boomed for the

Well, that's my point. Nash said it today. Nash said today he's still playing isolated workouts by himself. He hasn't even played one-on-one yet. He's not playing in the series. That's my point. Even if he were to, though, he might not be even finishing games over Bruce Brown. So if you are getting

Ben Simmons back, how much is he actually going to be able to offer you? Maybe not a lot at all. Oh, he's going to offer some really lousy clothes like we saw tonight. Who do you think is favored in that Nets Celtics series? I'm fando right now. It is now 10 o'clock at night.

So this might change. Probably the Nets because the public seems to be obsessed with them. Well, you're wrong. The answer is the Boston Celtics. They are minus 142 favorites over the Nets. So I think it started actually with the Nets' favorite. And I think a lot of people started banging the Celts. There's, KOC and I talk about it later,

but there's some Time Lord buzz too for this series. Okay, got you. I think we have a much, if I had to say who are we going to see in this series, Time Lord or Ben Simmons, I would have Time Lord as like a minus 500 favorite. week i think we have a much if i had to say who are you going to see in this series time lord or ben simmons i would have time lord as like a minus 500 favorite but who do you have what do you what you don't have a dog in this race what do you know i'm basically from watching the nets the last few weeks i just like this idea that kb is just gonna just you know play 46 minutes a game and like

that's what's gonna work for for them. I just don't. I don't see it for them. And tonight the crazy thing, too, is that I'm watching the game, and him and Kyrie were so crisp, right? Like, every time Cleveland tried to send two, these guys got the ball out, and they got it out quickly. They were executing at such a high level on offense. The Nets' ball movement was incredible tonight. Bruce Brown and Claxton, they were attacking the four on threes with impunity,

freaking drumming, looking like a beast on the offensive boards. They looked like the idealized version of themselves, especially offensively with this group that's available to play. And they barely got it done against a hampered Cleveland team. Like, I don't know why I'm supposed to be excited about this. I think they're going to be slowed down considerably by what Boston's able to do defensively. And I just think Boston's going to be able to exploit what they do. Like, Cleveland has one guy who could exploit the horrible Nets perimeter defense.

And, you know, at the end, Karis LeVert was, you know, he was like, you know what? I'm attacking Kyrie. He's my old teammate. Thanks for waiting three quarters to do that, Karis. I don't know what you're doing the first two hours of the game. But I just feel like Boston's going to be smarter about attacking those kinds of matchups and going to be better at it than, frankly, the freaking Cleveland Cavaliers were. So I think they're going to beat them fast.

I think they're going to beat them in five games. All right. Settle down, Wes. Don't start putting that on the subject. I can't wait for this series. I think we have a couple awesome series, potentially. Because you think Boston-Brooklyn's going to be great. Philly-Toronto is going to be off the hook.

I've got my eye on that one, Bill. Minnesota-Memphis. I've got my eye on that one. The Golden State series will be really good. Who's not going to enjoy that? So we're just going to have games all the time. I think if you're thinking about making the case for Brooklyn, I would really look

carefully at the last quarter and a half of that Cavs game and all the shots the Cavs had because they were missing open threes. They were missing driving layups just in traffic that were really makeable. They were missing open 15 footers. I liked every single shot they took was a really good shot that their players just weren't good enough and they didn't make. And the Celtics are going to look at that. They're going to look at how involved Bruce Brown was in the fourth quarter. And you know what?

If Kyrie and KD get their 60, they still are going to need, I think, another 55 from the rest of the team. KOC, what happened to Seth Curry tonight? Is it just how they're using him or he's just really legitimately hurt at this point? He definitely was playing like he was hurt for sure.

He didn't do anything on the ball at all. He just kind of stands there though. So I don't know. The way Philly was using him where he was in constant motion is kind of the way you use him. And the two-man game, he wasn't doing any of that, which he's usually an expert at. He didn't do anything

with that. But look, I will say this about Bruce Brown and I wrote this down. Iman game, he wasn't doing any of that, which he's usually an expert at. He didn't do anything with that. But, look, I will say this about Bruce Brown, and I wrote this down. I was like, he was incredible. He was great. He really was. He was decisive. There was no hesitation. Every time he grabbed the ball, he knew exactly where he wanted to go with it.

He threw a couple of those Draymond Green alley-oops to the center, going downhill on the four-on-three. He looked really confident in what the Nets are asking him to do offensively. And that's how it's going to happen. He's firing them damn corner threes, which that's the shot you want Brooklyn to take when you have KD and Kyrie Irving on the floor. But he was making a couple of his corner threes.

The attacking closeouts, He looked really decisive, which I thought was pretty impressive. You know what his mistake was? His postgame quote. Did you see it? No, I didn't see it. He said, he was talking about the Boston series. I mean, we can't let Tatum get 50.

We got to be physical with them. Now they don't have Robert Williams, so they have less of a presence in the paint. We can attack Al Horford and Tice. Them not having Rob Williams is huge. The war on Tice continues. Oh my god. Tice. Wow. He's

taking more drive-by shots than anyone in the last five years in the NBA. Oh, we can attack Tice. Yeah, definitely. Let me tell you something. Udoka will be mentioning that in the locker room. That is like the kind of thing because he's been all about toughness this year and

you know, making these guys men put chest hair on them. That is not going to go well, KOC. Bill, a couple weeks ago, Whit Grosbeck had that quote on WEI where he's like, this doesn't have to be a record-setting year. He said that to Stevens and Udoka before the season. It's not about winning a championship this year. He wants to build for the year. He said that to Stevens and Odoka before the season. Like, it's not about winning

a championship this year. He wants to build for the future. With all that said, you know, going into the playoffs, it seems like the Celtics are, we go as far as we do. It's not, the goal isn't a championship this year.

With that said, though, how crushed? I don't believe that. You don't believe it? No. No, because I think they have a legitimate chance to win the title.

There's been three. They were the best team in the entire Eastern Conference for three or four months. How can your goal not be getting to the championship? That's ridiculous. Since January 1st, they've been one of the elite teams. And they have a guy who can go toe-to-toe with every other elite scorer in the league. And I don't know, man. They have home court for the two series against the two teams that are the toughest

team in that conference. Milwaukee and Durant, Kyrie. So you don't believe that the Celtics' expectation is that low. It's actually higher. It is to win a championship. I don't mean the team. I just think they're smart about how they talk about it. I think this team absolutely thinks they can make the finals.

I do. I think they've been killing people for three and a half, four months. Now, it's going to be different. Things slow can make the finals. I do. I think they've been killing people for three and a half, four months. Now, it's going to be different. Things slow down in the playoffs. They start trapping Tatum. Marcus Smart gets a little more involved. All of a sudden, there's two minutes left. You're down one, and Marcus decides he's going to shoot the three. I know all the ways I'm going to be nervous as it's going, but the stuff, the stuff they did on the road, how unafraid they are on the road, the defense, and the fact that they just have this really young team that I think is going to, you know, they're not going to wear down during a series

where I think like Durant, the kind of load that he's going to have, not just in this next series, but for all of them, plus Kyrie, who, how many games has he played? Why? It's like 25. And now Kyrie's got to play every other game now. I want to see that too. He said he's fasting. The first game's at 3.30 on Sunday. That's pretty rough. Fasting is not difficult.

Oh my god! Unbelievable! You got to bring back the hottest take. It's difficult when you're playing a two and a half hour basketball game. Wow. KLC, you don't think you need like food to be great at the NBA? Water's good.

I mean, he's, by the way, he's not technically wrong because Hakeem was kicking everybody's ass when he was like, had no food and water some of those times too. Anyway, go ahead, Kelsey. That is the greatest thing I've ever heard. I love it. That's great. We're cutting that out. That was great. Kelsey's fasting right now. He hasn't eaten in how many months? No, with fasting,

when I was at my peak condition physically, I was intermittent fasting every day, every day. I didn't eat till like four at the earliest, sometimes not till six or seven. I've done 24 hour fast before and I feel amazing. I feel incredible.

Wow. So I'm going to be a Kyrie's quarter for the games. It's not that it's, it's not easy to do. It just takes discipline and it feels good. I feel great when I do it. This is the new agey version of media guys would be like, how can this guy

not make his free throws? It's the fundamentals of the game. KLC is like, yo, fast. Give me a break. Food, water, overrated. Get out of here. You guys are professional athletes. What do we have for Atlanta Charlotte before we go? Waz, you're the most invested in Atlanta of anyone I know other than

Yeah, I think Atlanta's going to smoke them tomorrow. Smoking? Wow, really? They're going to smoke them tomorrow. And I think they're going to get that eighth seed. I really do. Okay. Do you have any case other than Atlanta's going to smoke them?

Is it a good matchup? What is it? I think they're just better. They have more talent. They have more player available talent than whatever Charlotte's going to be able to do. And I think they can guard what Charlotte's trying to do pretty well here. They're not going to get destroyed on the boards like they do sometimes

against, you know, better, bigger, more physical teams. I don't think Charlotte's the type of team that beats them to the punch at the point of attack. Like, that's the teams they struggle with, like, physicality, who are just straight up out-hustling them and out-muscling them. I don't think that Charlotte presents that particular problem. And, again, Cleveland hobbled with no Jared Allen,ared allen which dude that paint was so wide they were getting oh my god on the market marketing etc is that it was terrible i think atlanta's gonna get

that eighth seed and yes i'm in the tank for him but it's just how i feel sorry guys i'm with waz on atlanta i i think trey young he's playing the best basketball of his life this season he leveled up as a three-point shooter in addition to doing everything else that he does. I think this is going to be Trey's stage in the play-in. I gotta say, I think Charlotte either... They're getting five points. I think it's either a last-second

game or Charlotte wins. And it's for what we were talking about earlier with Minnesota. I just like some of their guys in a game like this. Rozier's been in a lot of these games now Bridges is going to be completely unafraid Plumlee who's like weirdly important

for them now like he's alright he's like a little Zubachi for them and I don't know I'd Lomelo will be the swing factor right but if Lomelo's good and we've seen Lomelo in certain games especially against the

right opponents where LaMelo all of a sudden looks like one of the best five players in the league. I don't know. I could see him getting into this LaMelo versus Trey thing. I would not write them off. I think Atlanta has been the definition of wonky. Really, I cannot get a feel for them. I don't think they know who their best five guys are. And when we get to, if it's one of those things where they've thrown people at Trey and he starts out slow or anything, you know, honestly, Bogdanovich is probably

the only other guy I truly trust on that team. Other than that, I don't know what I'm getting from anybody on that team. So that'd be a good one. I think that would be good. San Antonio, New Orleans, whatever. Could be Pops last game, I guess. All right, KOC, you're going to be on after this break with me,

but then the mismatch and the void on your feed. Waz, what do you got coming? What are you working on? Of course, group chat coming out tomorrow with me, Rob Mahoney and Justin Barry on the Ringer NBA podcast feed. Full Corey Fitz every single Friday on our YouTube. And Weekends with Waz, check out the latest episode that I did with my man Adam Mares from DMVR Sports.

Adam's so good. The Nuggets season, Jokic MVP case. He's the best Denver person in the world. So check that out when you get a chance. Who's your finals pick right now? Suns Bucks. Just give me Giannis. I think the problem with the Western Conference is that Golden State

is extremely hobbled. Their two best players are hurt. Klay Thompson isn't right yet, although he's shown some flashes recently. The Suns are going to roll to the finals. I just think Giannis is the best player in the world right now. And when he's locked in and focused, I'll take him over anybody.

What do you got, KFC? Bucks over Suns again for the same reason Walsh just said. Giannis is the best player in the world. And he's just shown that Tuesday, Thursday game you and Ryan talked about on Sunday's pod, Bill. That was beautiful. Back-to-back with Philadelphia and Brooklyn. He can turn it up whenever he needs to.

I had Suns over Bucs before this season, or Bucs over Suns. I can't even remember. But I'm not going to change that. But if I could change it, I would change it to Suns-Celtics because I think the Celtics... I can't explain it. As you know, I'm not a homer. I'm the first one to admit when the team sucks.

Like, if anything, I swing too far both ways. My only homer moment might have been picking Marcus Smart for defensive player of the year. But I really believe there was, I thought it was him or Bridges. I want to do a wing. I'm so tired of rewarding big guys. And it was going to be a perimeter person for me. Anyway, it was go bear. It was go bear. I can't do Anyway, Waz. It was Gobert. It was Gobert.

I can't do it. Waz, great to see you. KOC, you'll be back after this break and we'll take a break. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business. It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit, more cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days and

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Before we do that, quick stuff on the Lakers. Since the season ended, they announced Volko's getting fired. He's not even... I don't even think he had taken off his tie in the locker room yet. They proactively leaked the Westbrook piece before the season even ends about what a disaster that is. Give some dirt on that. Nick Nurse's name gets thrown out. He's a clutch client client Toronto has him under contract

I have no idea why they would let one of the best five coaches in the league just go somewhere else when he's on a contract the Lakers seem like they're flailing all the way around but the big thing for me is just LeBron with a year left we've never seen him in this situation before where he doesn't really have a lot of power

because there's two things going on. One, how do you trade Westbrook? I tweeted yesterday. I was like, I just don't see it. You can throw all these fake Westbrook trades at me. I don't see it. I think they're going to either have to buy him out or he's going to be like,

F this, I'm staying and just be super stubborn. But that's holding everything hostage on top of the LeBron thing. LeBron has no power. Is there any out here at all that you see? I know you talked about this yesterday, but for my audience, is there any outs? Well, how about attaching one of those

or two of those future draft picks, 2027 and 2029, to Russell Westbrook? Because you're right, him alone, there's no value. There's nothing that makes sense. Verno and I have been talking about that since Mark Stein reported it. The idea of the Hornets and Michael Jordan wanting Russell Westbrook, it is ludicrous.

I would lose my shit if I were a Hornets fan and we get Russell Westbrook and pair him with LaMelo Ball. It just doesn't make any sense. You're trading Hayward and Rogier so you can have Russell Westbrook for a year? Why would anyone do that? No way. It doesn't make sense. What does make sense is if a team says,

we want those future firsts, we'll give you a good player or good players in return for Russell Westbrook's salary, and then the buyout happens. Something like that makes some sense. But even then, getting to nearly $50 million in salary is not an easy thing to do. Granted, there will be a couple of teams with cap space. There's not a lot of

paths here for the Lakers. What's been on my mind with them, Bill, is if you're LeBron James, everything we hear is that he's staying in LA, that he's happy living here, his son in high school and all that. Family loves it. He loves it. LA is great. But if you're LeBron, is there any part of you that's thinking about bouncing?

His son's going to be a senior in high school and he likes living in LA, as you said. On the other hand, if the season could start, it could just be a business decision where you're gone for seven months

on the last year of your contract. They would also have to agree that he can bounce. And if I'm them, why would I do that? You just made me trade all these picks and all these players for Anthony Davis.

I still want to see what it looks like if both of you are on the court together. You're the one who told us we had to trade for Russ Westbrook. We did. Now you're asking us to use more picks in the future. You're going to be in year 20. You've missed 84 games over the last four seasons.

What makes us think, you know, that we should mortgage even more of the future and the past and the present that we've already done to make you happy when you might leave in a year anyway? This is kind of what he did in Cleveland, right? In 2018, when he had that little, almost like a work strike halfway through the year, when he wanted them to trade that pick that became Colin Sexton for help. And they kind of looked him in the eye and were like, we think you're leaving. We're not trading that pick. We're not.

So why would the Lakers trade picks to make him happy? I don't get that part. I think they have one play at KFC. I think you have to keep Westbrook. Either he comes back next season or you just keep him away John Wall style. And I think you just have to hope

when we get to January, February, that's an expiring contract. Half of it will have been paid already. And then you can flip it for stuff. And I think that's it. I think that's our only option. We've learned everybody can be traded, but I think that's the only realistic option.

So if you're the Lakers, you're not willing to attach either of those future first round picks in 27 or 29. I'm not willing to do it. I'm unwilling to do it. Even if it means getting rid of Westbrook and getting some solid return and like my solid

I mean, even if it's like a Julius Randall type who is not a good player last season, but was all NBA two years ago. If it's something like that, is there some appeal for you to attach one of those first-round picks? It's like Derrick Rose and Evan Fournier

is the kind of stuff they're looking at. And that's what people don't understand. So you're not... So in other words... They're getting crap back for somebody's decision to take the Westbrook contract. So if you're in Rob Polanka's seat

and LeBron comes to you, he's pissed off, He wants to trade. He wants to try to make the most of the time he has here in LA. You're saying, no, we're keeping our 27 and our 29 because we need to retain future flexibility. That's what you're doing in that case. And if that happens, though, how do you think LeBron

responds? That's what brings me back to my thought here is if you're LeBron, what's he going to do? Not play? Demand a sign and trade. I mean, demand a sign and trade with a free agent somewhere. Or for LeBron, what's he going to do? Not play? Demand a sign and trade. I mean, demand a sign and trade with a free agent somewhere. Or for LeBron, he could just outright demand a trade this off. It's under contract. We just saw this

happen with Tom Brady and Tampa Bay. We just saw this happen. He wanted to go to San Francisco or Miami. They stared him down. They're like, no. So he's like, I'm going to retire. They're like, cool. Because why would you trade Tom Brady? 30 days pass. Why would you trade LeBron James, right?

Yeah, 30 days pass. And they waited out. And what they did was they leveraged his desire to still be great, to still be in the limelight, to still try to set records and all that stuff. And they knew he was going to come back. And with the Lakers, LeBron has no leverage. What he's going to be like, I'll sit out. It's like,

you will? You're trying to break the scoring title. So you're just going to hand away games for no reason? So if you're the Lakers, you're not willing to attach the 27 or the 29 first to a dealing price, but you're also not willing to trade LeBron James. Does that mean you would then be willing to look into moving

AD? I'd be more willing to do that because I don't know what I have with AD. He's year 11 next year, right? And always hurt. He's not the guy, three years ago, we were in Vegas. Remember when that trade went down? I think as we were leaving and it was like, oh my God, this guy's 25.

Jesus, holy shit, this sucks. Now this is going to be Will Kareem Shaq. Now he's going to be 29. He's going to be year 11. And I don't know if he could stay in the court. And I heard what he said about, oh, the reason I didn't get to be more injured because I was in such awesome shape. I didn't see a guy who looked like he was in awesome shape this year. I saw a guy that was carrying too much weight and is somebody that's going to keep getting hurt. And his jumper hasn't been the same ever since the bubble. That was an outlier stretch.

The way he shot in those empty arenas in Orlando. Other than that, he's been incredibly inconsistent, low 30%. So if he's not hitting jumpers, it changes what the Lakers could be on the offensive end and the half court. I think they jumped the gun with the Westbrook stuff. I thought they were going to wait till the summer and try to make it seem like he's great.

This is going to be awesome while secretly trying to trade him. They went the other way. They were like, nobody wants to trade for this guy. Let's try to go after him now to the point that he's like, I got to get out of here. I might even take the buyout just to get me out of here. Who would want Russ on? Nobody. Nobody wants him.

Not the money he's making now. Not one team. Nobody. What about league minimum? Who wants him in that case? Let's just say the lowest salary possible. Who would want Russ? Who's lining up first?

I went through all the teams and I could not figure it out. You can't even say Orlando because they have all those guards. If you're a young team, why would you want them? If you're a mid-range team, you're going to have to give something up to get them. Like somebody like the Knicks, Charlotte, people in that range. Then if it's a team that wants to dump salary, all the contracts are shorter. Nobody really has to dump salary in the same way. So now you look at a team like Portland,

I guess it would be the only possibility if they're thrown away next season too. And it's like, all right, one year Russ will get some more picks out of it. But it goes back to my initial thing. I don't think the Lakers have to give up picks. I would rather... Getting back with Beal. Beal really liked Russ

Tommy Shepard liked Russ Russ liked Washington but now they have to put contracts in that trade though I mean I'm saying like if it were like a buyout situation but

even if it were a trade we could talk trade reversal I thought he was way worse this season oh didn't you feel like the guy we saw

this season almost a little bit like James Harden, was a different guy than this season a year ago. Somebody would say like, well, it was the confidence. He was in the wrong situation. I saw somebody that didn't quite have the same athleticism. His shot was worse. And all of the bad things about him, like his defense, his ability to play off the ball, all that stuff is just magnified as he gets older. And I just think he's a losing player. I honestly think he's a losing player. All season long,

I was saying how he needs to change for the Lakers to have any chance. People said I was crazy for even suggesting that Ross can change. I mean, it is crazy. It was crazy to suggest that. Did you watch his uh exit interview with the media he just doesn't get it that's the worst thing for his trade value is

that interview where it's like none of this is my fault he says i don't know why the coach didn't like me it's a bad season if i don't have a triple double it's like dude it's not about the numbers it it's about cutting it's about playing and focusing on defense. That's what this Lakers team needed. And he's like, oh, I did everything I could. I forget who asked him it, but someone said,

what does sacrifice mean to you? And he's like, it's about doing what's best for the team. And I feel like I did my best. I don't think he did. And I just don't think he gets it. I don't think he sees

where he is at this point of his career and what he could be and needs to be to contribute to winning basketball. Because we're talking about all these potential fits for him. Like the fact that nobody would want to trade for Russell Westbrook says a lot. Like despite all the knocks about him over the years, despite some of the choke games, despite some of the shot selection. This guy authored unbelievable moments throughout his career. When Brett Favre was near the end, teams were happy to get him. The Vikings

got him. The Jets got him. Brett Favre had those great highs and those great lows. I like to think about Ross as the NBA's Brett Favre. He's had those peaks, but he's had those real disastrous moments. The fact we're already at this point, Bill, I think that he is really the face

of these players, some players who aren't able to adapt. We've seen the opposite side. We've seen Carmelo Anthony. We've seen Dwight Howard in his own locker room. We've seen Vince Carter. Russ just isn't one of those guys, unfortunately. It's sad. Yeah, it's either his way or the

highway. It's too bad. It's really too bad. If they bring him back with a new coach and they pretend, oh, well, you know, new start, fresh start, and we just want, you know, we want to put Russ in it, do all the fakes, and then by December,

they can probably trade him. It'd be a disaster. They need some teams to be disappointed with the teams they have and the contracts they have looking for like the balloon expiring contract where they can maybe dump a salary too. I mean, we're going to play now what in a second, but a team like Utah, they might decide, let's blow it up. We'll trade Mitchell. We'll get a bunch of stuff. We'll trade Gobert. We'll get a bunch of stuff.

We'll dump the rest of our contracts for an expiring Westbrook and we'll just bottom out for one year and we'll come back in a year. Like that's their only scenario, but they're not going to decide that now. You sure about Russ in Utah? You sure? Oh yeah. I guess that would probably convince him to take the buyout. I don't want to go there.

I don't like Utah. Yeah. Um, all right. So our predictions, you, you predict he's going to, you predict Russ is going to get traded this summer. Uh, if you had to give it, I give you... You predict Russ is going to get traded this summer. I think the Lakers... I give you a Russ trade, LeBron trade, Davis trade. You think Russ is the guy?

Yeah, I'd pick a Russ trade and they attach a pick or both picks and it's a bigger deal. I think they're going to get creative. That's what I think. No way they keep him. No way. I think they drag it

perilously close to the season. And if it ends with them icing him for three months John Wall style, I think that's what they do. I don't think they attach the picks. I think Jeannie Buss is in the F this moment of this whole thing. The stuff they tried to do at All-Star Weekend

and after I think was a huge mistake from the LeBron side. All the people they floated out, not great. All right, now what? So this is a little game. For the teams in the plan in the first round, if the season just ends abruptly and horribly, who's in the now what situation

of all those teams? I am going to cross off Milwaukee and Phoenix because I think there's no chance they lose in round one. You good with that? Zero percent chance. I agree with you in round one. I'm there. Okay.

We're crossing them off. The Celtics, they lose to Brooklyn. Let's say it's, but we're taping this for the playing games. They lose to Brooklyn or they lose to Brooklyn. Let's say it's, but we're taping this for the playing games. They lose to Brooklyn or they lose to whoever in round one. What is the now what for them? Because I think, I think that was so encouraging what happened from January 1st on that they

will look at this and go, well, bad luck. We had to play those guys in round one. We still love what we did. The only real decision they have is Horford. $14.5 million, they can buy him out. $27 million, keep him, roll him over as an expiring.

What's the now what with them, you think? I mean, with this team, you talked with Ryan on Sunday's pod about Robert Williams. Are we assuming he's not in this series, a first-round loss? I would bet on seeing him versus not seeing him. I think there's a chance. There's a lot of optimism. It sounds like this meniscus surgery wasn't super major.

I think we see him by midway through. Would be my guess. It's my guess. Don't aggregate me. Yeah, I think with Boston, the now what would definitely relate to Al Horford in this situation. 26.5 million expiring contracts.

We've seen Grant Williams be a very effective switch defender, a very effective corner three-point shooter. Granted, a different type of player than Horford. He plays a very similar role with what he's asked to do on offense and defense. Maybe you're using that Horford salary with other future assets, draft picks,

young players, and trying to bolster that front court. Other than that, I struggle to look at this roster and think now what? What are you going to do with Tatum Brown? You're keeping that together. What are you going to do with Marcus Smart? You're keeping him. You're keeping White. You're keeping Time Lord unless it's like a Rudy

Gobert type of thing. But even then you're probably keeping Time Lord at $10.1 million next season and moving forward instead of paying a big $35-40 million. So really the only now what on this roster got to be Al Horford. point one million dollars next season and moving forward instead of paying a big thirty five forty million dollars so like really the only now what on this roster got to be Al Horford and I think it's a trade because

it could be a team that wants to get off an expensive contract knowing that they could just buy out Horford for fourteen million I think Corford was really valuable for them and I like him either coming back or as a twenty seven million dollar expiring Memphis let's say Minnesota wins the playing game or the Clippers taping this for the playing game. And all of a

sudden Memphis' season goes to hell. And it would be a now what in the sense of, wait a second, I thought we were making a run at this here. Now what? To me, the now what for them is a three for one. And I think we should just throw Atlanta in this too. Those are the two teams that feel three for one-y for me. But you can make the case Memphis just does nothing and says we had a great year. It's too bad Ja got hurt right before.

We lost a little momentum with that. What is the now what in your opinion? When you say three for one, you mean like trades? Yeah. Consolidation. Yeah, consolidation trade. Okay, because they have 15 good players.

Right. And they have picks coming in. Maybe it's a six for one. I mean, that effectively might have to be that considering the amount of roster spots. But I think with Memphis, this season at 56- 26 20 and 5 without john morant uh the fact that they're in this place is the two seed that now what is really in my opinion

just more of the same here unless there's a the right deal that makes sense finding somebody who's on that similar timeline as john morant and desmond bain and jaron jackson jr i'm perfectly okay with sitting on my hands here if you're Grizzlies general manager Zach Kleinman with the position that you're in. If you rush things, that could end up hurting you three or four years from now as Morant and Bain you would hope are hitting their peaks

of their careers. With that said, they have some picks too, right? Don't they have at least two first runners? They do have picks. They aren't getting the one that would have went to them if it were from the Lakers now because the lakers fell out of playoffs not getting that but for memphis here though i am curious though bill because like we talk about this team i just said three or four years from now when those guys are entering their peaks windows can close fast injuries happen so for mem, should there be some urgency this offseason going into next year

with John Bain, another year older, Jackson, maybe defensive player of the year next season if he doesn't get it this year? I think... So Kyle Anderson's a free agent. And I think they have too many players

just in general. I just don't think you need this man. I think it really helped this season. It was one of the reasons they had the two seed because it was the weird COVID season. But long term, I just don't think you need this man. I think it really helped this season. It was one of the reasons they had the two seed because it was the weird COVID season. But long-term, I just look at that Kyle Anderson spot

and it's like, what's the rich man's version of that? Who could they add to the team who's like a facilitator, almost like a Gordon Hayward type, right? If Gordon Hayward could stay in the four. But is there a way using him leaving plus some of the assetsward could stay in the four but is there a way using the him leaving plus some of the assets they have and even the picks to get somebody who's kind of a kick-ass

version of kyle anderson in that spot i like kyle anderson but you know what i mean yeah totally i mean it's six foot nine kyle or could zyra williams be that guy yeah and he could be i i think zyra williams is probably the most overlooked rookie because everybody's looking at Memphis with John Bain and Jackson and even like Steven Adams. But Zyra Williams, meanwhile, a rookie defending Steph Curry, doing a great job night in, night out on the defensive end of the floor, contributing offensively, playing his role. Like he could turn into that guy.

But I think to your point, finding that forward who can provide some scoring ability is really going to be the key for them and with memphis they have right now the 22nd pick and the 29th pick so maybe the consolidation that you're talking about with them happens on draft night where they've had such a strong draft record maybe this is the year that they consolidate both of those first with a player or two to move up to 14 or 15 and target the guy that they actually have in mind. Yeah, good point. All right, we'll take a break, then we'll do the rest of the teams.

All right, now what? We're keeping this going. This one's interesting. Miami. So Miami's going to be in the 1-8. They're probably going to win. They'll be heavily favored. But let's say something goes bad.

Let's say they lose. Let's say Atlanta gets in there as the 8 seed. And then they go on another bender like they did last year. And it's like, uh-oh, what's going on with Atlanta? And all of a sudden they're winning in series. Then now what has to be Butler for them, right? That's the one. I find it hard to believe if these playoffs don't go well for them

that he's not going to be in some trade stuff. Just some spidey senses. What have you heard? Did you see the Joe Varden report on the Athletics today? I sure did. What's your take on that? Do you think there's something there? I think he tapped into

stuff that's been floating around since that thing that happened on the bench. How much of this is just teams trying to stir it up, to try to spring loose a star in what could be a pretty stagnant summer? How much of it is that? I'm glad you asked that, KFC.

I remember when you, when we started working together and we talked a couple of times about what was going to happen in your career and things to watch out for. And one of the things, remember we talked about watch out people trying to give you information. What's their agenda with the information. Yeah. Like always put yourself in their shoes. Why are they telling you this? So with the Butler thing, that the red flags are up with that because other teams,

of course, they're going to be interested in heat dissension and Jimmy Butler trade rumors. That's great for all the other teams in the league. They're the one seed. With that said, I thought that, I still think that thing was pretty weird.

I know you and Virto talked about it too. I'm willing to throw away 98 to 99% of on-court people getting heated with each other. I felt like that was in the 1%. It, it went too far. It was really weird. And when a coach stands up and is like, you want to fight me? Like that's, it's gone to another level. I'm sorry. That was, that was not just like a heated 22nd thing. So with Butler, like for years, we're talking like about the stuff you hear like around the league. For years, we heard about Butler wanting Miami. Right.

We heard about it at the time the deal happened. He didn't get it. He goes to Philadelphia, but he eventually ends up there. Maybe he gets there and he is unhappy about it, but I think it was probably just a blip in all likelihood, just based off the conversations I've had. But who knows?

Maybe things are worse than I understand. But for this team, though, the what if has to be him, though, because you're talking about somebody who is 32 years old, still a great player, still all NBA type of guy. You have Kyle Lowry there. But if there's opportunities to trade up, because what we just talked about with Memphis about consolidation, you could also say about Miami. They're starting Max Schroos over Duncan Robinson. They have those two sharpshooters. You can move one of them. There's options on this team. You have a lot of depth. You have Caleb Martin. You have Markeith Morris.

You have Victor Oladipo. This is a deep team. So there's options here for them to consolidate as well if there's an opportunity to get a better player than Butler. I'm not trading down from Butler. I'm only moving up. The question is, is there anybody even available that would make sense for the Heat even if Butler

were unhappy? I'm not so sure about that. Yeah, and Robinson, if you're saying, if I had to bet my life on it, what do I think happened? Robinson is probably the more likely trade candidate because he's expensive and honestly they it seems like they can fill his minutes pretty easily you know man streus is good he lit up the celtics a couple weeks ago but ironically he was on the celtics for a brief cup of coffee but and then here i was playing more than i think they probably expected to you know so if So if they, if they were to move Butler or let's just say Butler,

we're unhappy, whatever it might be. But what would that mean for Kyle Lowry? And because he goes there because of his friendship with Jimmy Butler, like, is this the type of situation that is Florida, Miami and Pat Riley? I mean,

he's like, there were other reasons. He's like, he's like besties with, with Jimmy Butler. Those guys are really close, like legitimately friends, not just,

you know, I don't think it was just Miami. This can't happen, but it would be the most fun thing ever. If there was a Westbrook Butler and the Lakers at 27, 29 and Miami sticking them with another salary or just, I know it can't happen, but it would just be hilarious to see.

It would be Butler's final destiny playing with LeBron, the guy who has either been hit or miss with more teammates than any star we've had in the last 20 years. And Butler, who's had more dissension at every stop. And just putting those together

would be absolutely incredible. And then Russell Westbrook goes to Miami. Heat culture. Yeah, heat culture. We're going to salvage him. Focus on defense. He's cutting to the basket. He's getting his triple-double too.

Yeah. Why not? I don't want to make it seem like I don't value those 27 and 29 Laker picks. That's my whole reason that I don't think they should trade them.

Because LeBron will be gone by then. And I don't know what Davis is going to look like two years from now, much less five. And they're going to have no ability to kind of, those picks might be two top five picks. So to trade that because you think there's a puncher's chance you can get a five seed next year?

Like, I don't see it. Golden State, 171 million on the books next year, right now. Brutal. And I'm not even including whatever, minimum contracts and things like that. I would assume if they get bounced in round one, or even if they lose in five in round two or whatever, the fact that they're not deep enough at the center spot would be at least one of the reasons. So I would assume they either have to shit or get off the

pot with Wes Wiseman at that point, right? Yeah. So if it's about the center spot, how do you improve that center spot? Are you talking about trading some of these younger guys, Kaminga, Moody, or are you more looking at free agency with some of the guys that might be out there over the summer? Like this year's class could be Nurkic, Mitchell Robinson, Montrezl Harrell, Andre Drummond, Isaiah Hartenstein,

Mo Bamba, just some names. Isaiah Hartenstein's available? He'll be a free agent. I mean, I'd probably... Is he unrestricted? I believe he's restricted. I like that guy. Yeah, he's a really good player.

I mean, I won't like him when somebody's paying him $12 million a year, but if you can get him for $5, I would totally like him. Get him for $12? $12 is okay, Bill, for Hartenstein.

He's a really good backup. Man, that's a lot. I don't like paying... Even Time Lord may be nervous, but that turned out to be... Well, I mean, if you're the Warriors, though, I mean,

what path are you going? Are you going the free agency path or are you trying to trade some of those young guys and get like a really, like it was floated out earlier today, Gobert

as a target for Golden State. Just a theoretical target. Come on. I mean, he's, what does he make, like 40 million a year? I know.

I'm just like saying as a theoretical, are you going for a big deal? Are you going for a trade here to get a five? I think that's the easiest, I think that's the easiest position to find bodies who are confident. Look at the Celtics. Tice,

a throw-in trade at the last minute. Now he's playing in the playoffs. I do feel like there's 15 guys like that. I just think they need... Wiseman was the guy they were counting on for those minutes and he's just two years in a row hasn't been able to deliver them.

They need somebody. I think Looney's going to, if I was a Warriors fan, I'd be so scared Looney was going to break down because the amount of miles. I think he might have. Did he play every game? He's played every game or close. It's incredible.

And he's been banged up over the years. I mean, yeah, the hip injuries he had back at UCLA, it's remarkable that he actually ended up playing 82. I'm going to save Philly for last. Dallas, they have $151 million on the books next year in the Brunson thing. There's not a lot of moves for them except Brunson. Is Brunson a sign-and-trade guy for you?

100% Brunson's a sign-and-trade guy, and he should have value to a lot of different teams. And I think for Dallas, they're in a position where I'd be looking for, like we just said with Golden State, a true five. I mean, you do really well with Dwight Powell at the five, but if you can get another big that can play with Powell

or alone, then that's really the ideal for this team here. And if you can sign and trade Brunson to get that guy, that to me is the number one priority for the Mavericks this offseason, regardless, really, of how the playoffs go. Agree.

Toronto, I think they're fine. I mean, they have Boucher's. He's out. Or at least they could resign him, I guess. But I think they like the core. I don't see them doing anything nuts. Do you? No, I don't think they should do anything nuts.

No, I agree. I don't want to get repetitive, but another big over Ken Burch? Yeah, whatever. Those guys are available. Nothing dramatic. Same thing for Denver. I think they chalked this year up to,

oh, we didn't have Porter and Murray. Next year we do. Let's see what we have. I don't think they do anything crazy. They haven't had their four guys together really for more than, what, three weeks? No. Yeah.

Chicago. Are we sure Zach Levine's residing there? I haven't heard anything to indicate otherwise would you bet your life on it? no of course not especially after he had to take a backseat to DeMar DeRozan I could see his circle you know saying to Zach Levine you can be the guy somewhere else but for the next two years here in Chicago you're going to be in number two behind DeMar DeRozan. I

could definitely see something like that. Another sign of potential guy, sign and trade potential guy. And I think for the Bulls here, assuming that they do lose round one after this horrific end of the season, after their great start for them, you could look at it two ways. You get back Lonzo Ball,

you get back Alex Caruso, and that can help fix your defense and get you back to what you were at the beginning of the season. But there's no guarantees in that, though. There's no guarantees that happens. There's no guarantees Patrick Williams makes a leap on the offensive end of the floor and becomes the guy you need at the four. So if you're Chicago, you have to take advantage of this window. You have to take advantage of DeRozan playing at the level he is. To me, everybody and everything

should be available on this team. I'm looking, if I'm them, I'm thinking about Anthony Davis. What does it take to get him if he wanted to go home to Chicago? He already hinted at that in past years and wanted to play there someday. Would you be willing to trade Lonzo and Vooch

to get AD? That's the type of thing that I'm thinking about to fortify your defense because as much as the Lakers struggled this year, if you look at the minimum possessions defended in the pick and roll, AD was still number one in allowing points per chance in the pick and roll. He's still a great defender despite falling off a little bit, maybe physically. So for Chicago, I think there's logic there

in going for a guy like that to really hold down your defense. Just go for it all. I like it, KFC. I think it's going to take more than just those two guys. Oh, yeah. You're going to have to get picks, too.

Picks as well. I'm just talking, it's like a foundation with the names in a deal. Interesting. Mooch, Lonzo, some picks. Maybe that resets the Lakers and it gives you the defense

you need next to DeMar and hopefully you keep Zach Levine too. Kyle, turn the camera on. What if Embiid starts texting Levine? Hey, man. What's going on? How you doing? Just a little relationship going.

You really going to be DeRozan's number two? Why don't you just, why don't you come here? Let's try to, James might leave. I don't know what's going to happen. And all of a sudden we start heading toward like a Harden-Levine sign and trade swap. If Harden, if the Philly thing, if everyone decides this sucked,

this isn't going to work out. If Chicago's like, oh, we might lose Levine anyway. Harden for Levine, Just as a thought experiment, what repels you from that idea? Zero. I'm very much into that idea. Because the version of James Harden we've seen since the, what, three games out of the All-Star break is not a James Harden that I want to give $200-plus million to. You were adamant when we did the 17-part trade deadline pod. You were like,

you're getting James freaking Harden. And you were right. You were like, I love this guy. My only hesitation was like, are we sure we're getting that James Harden? And the more I watch him, I just don't think we're getting that James Harden. That guy might be gone. I had Nate Jones on my pod last week and we talked about Harden and he brought up the comparison to Chris Paul. Chris Paul, his last year in Houston, everybody's talking like he's done

with the hamstring issues that he had. Then he changes everything that he does with the way he rests and recovers. He invests more money into his body and then he comes back and he's really had no issues since. I don't think we can rule that out with james harden either like the guy his peak abilities if he just changes what he does you can get more on a heart and moving forward the question is is he willing

to do that like with with chris paul there was never a question about his partying habits and his nights out with james harden there is that question lifestyle questions so with that in mind like for philadelphia if you're Daryl Morey, you did everything it took to get James Harden. But after everything you've seen, and assuming this continues into the first round and the playoffs, you have to be thinking about the possibilities of either re-signing him and then eventually looking to move him

or just outright sign and trade this offseason. Because if you're getting this hard for the next five years at $200 million, you're never going to win a championship with Joel Embiid playing at an MVP level. Well, or what if he just leaves? And what do you do then? And can you attach Harris and try to create cap space for Zach Levine? Here's why I mentioned this. I don't mean to cause a panic.

I don't want Jason Goff, our guy who hosts the full go on the ringer podcast, that were Chicago pod. Although I do want to go on his podcast. So the Syria, I don't like when guys are about to become a free agent and they're on a team that is obviously something's wrong. And there's obviously something wrong with the Chicago team. I don't know what it is, but we watched this happen in Boston in 2019, right? The team got unhappier as the year went along,

had some bad luck, some injuries, and all of a sudden it became conceivable Kyrie might leave. And it didn't seem conceivable, and then it started to become conceivable. Levine hasn't said anything. I'm just, I'm a tea leaves guy, and I'm watching this,

and I'm like, what happens if Milwaukee sweeps them in round one? Is Zach being like, cool, I'm back tea leaves guy and I'm watching this and I'm like, what happens if Milwaukee sweeps them in round one? Is Zach being like, cool, I'm back, baby. Or is he, look around. He'd be the hottest girl at the dance. He would immediately become the top free agent. And that's the thing with Harden. He would also become one of the top free agents.

So I just think we have to watch that. All right. We mentioned Philly. Philly does have 153 million on the top free agents. So I just think we have to watch that. All right. We mentioned Philly. Philly does have 153 million on the books next year. They have the Tobias Harris thing too, which would be the fallback point if they can't figure out the hard thing.

Just quickly going through the playing teams. Brooklyn's got the Kyrie decision. Bruce Brown's a free agent. I don't even want to speculate on Brooklyn. Who knows? Minnesota, I think they run it back with whatever they have. I don't even want to speculate in Brooklyn. Who knows? Minnesota, I think they run it back with whatever they have.

I don't really see... They're not in the luxury tax. Russell's going to be an expirer next year. They probably see where that's going. Cleveland's got Sexton as a restricted free agent, but he's coming off a major injury. I'm sure they'll figure that out. Love's an expiring.

That's a possible Al Horford combo. Clippers are stuck with who they have. $159 million. I don't really see a path for them other than bringing back Hartenstein. Atlanta, we mentioned as a three-for-one trade. No question. They're like the ceiling basement team of all the playing teams. I don't know what to make of how that goes. New Orleans has the Zion thing. Charlotte has Bridges a restricted and they're at a hundred million. So they might have room for at least some free agent. Hayward's 30 and 31. They need a big. Yeah. They need a big, but they might have the room to actually get the big.

And then San Antonio is at 82 million. Pop might retire and could at least be a stalking horse in the James Harden thing or the Zach Levine thing if those guys decide they're unhappy any storyline I missed out of all those I don't know I think I think with the Spurs like they're in a position now where they're just missing

the guy yeah like they're not necessarily a star destination but I'm intrigued by a team just assigned. Screw it. We're going to trade all of this for player X who becomes available this offseason because the Spurs, like DeJounte Murray, averaging 24 points, 10 assists, 8 rebounds

his last 40 games while playing all defense. He was outstanding for the Spurs. He's made a leap. You have Keldon Johnson, Devin Vassell, Jacob Purtle. They have a lot of talent on that team. They're just missing the guy next to DeJounte Murray. So I'm thinking about

teams like that that could cash in some chips and go get that player and then suddenly propel themselves forward up into a top four, top five seed. The Spurs seem like one of those teams geared to do that. With the Pelicans, my only question with them is

you mentioned the Zion thing. Is there any logic to New Orleans saying, you know what, screw it. We don't want to deal with Zion's stuff. We're going to trade him for this massive trade package rather than giving him the money in the extension. Is there any logic to that? I would play it out

and do the restricted free agent dance with him. Oh, you'd play it out? You wouldn't give him the money this offseason. I would not. Really? So you're playing it out and risking that he goes and signs that qualifying offer

and then one year... Great, I can match it. Unless he does the thing where he pass... He basically passes up his ability to... Oh, yeah, that's what I mean. Like then in 2024, he would become a unrestricted free agent. If he were to do that,

I don't think he's going to do that. I think it's, it's too much money. We haven't seen anybody roll the dice with that. And he's somebody that's already played what? 40% of his career. What do you, what do you get for Zion?

If you put a guy who averaged nearly 30 points per game, can pass the ball, just an absolute dominant force. If you put a guy like that on the table with all his injury concerns, if you're doing your trade valley, you call him, how high up is Zion? He's not in the top 10. That's what I mean. He should be, but he's not because of the injuries. I

mentioned on previous pods that nobody's ever walked away before from the max or nobody's ever walked away before from the max or, or nobody's been traded before they got the max spots. Like it's just the team always either keeps it. It happened with Porzingis. I forgot the Knicks actually proactively said,

fuck this. And they traded them before he even had a chance to the max. And then he ended up Dallas to care of them. The rest was history. I'd be really nervous about trading him. Oh, yeah. I'd also be really, really even. I think I would be more nervous to trade for him

than I would be to trade him. How about that? Knowing the price that it would take. The price it would take and having no clue if he gets it on how to stay in shape because his weight is going up and down by 40 point swings

right now. Are you getting back up by the way? If you're the Blazers and let's say you move up onto the number one pick, you can't. You have the Odin Walton.

You can't. Brandon Roy. You can't. That's you're the haunted house. You can't have a guy like that. Is there a team that you'd be willing to give with the number one pick

for Zion and more? The number one pick? The number one pick. So Chet, Paulo Banqueiro, Jabari Smith plus more. No? I would rather have those three guys than Zion. I would also rather have six guys in this draft we just

had than Zion. Would you rather have Kaminga or Zion? I'd rather have Kaminga. I'd rather have Zion. Easily. Because the upside is just so massive with him. I know the downside is too, but it's so rare that you can get a guy who looked like a Hall of Famer in year two of his career.

The upside of Zion Williamson is competing for championships every single year that you have him. That's the upside. I'm not sure. I get it, but I think I'm older than you is the problem, which means I'm more risk-averse. But I've also seen this play before with NBA players. We're like, yeah, but if he just...

The best-case scenario for something like this would be like Chris Webber. But Chris Webber is even older, and he had at least played 70, 75-game seasons. Zion, I don't know if he gets it. It's scary. He's not in shape. I've heard the stories about fitness, conditioning, what he eats. I just don't think he gets it. That's the scary part here for New Orleans because David Kerfin has built a really good team. He's built a really good roster with Ingram and Jones on the wing.

That backcourt they have with CJ McCollum. They have a lot of picks. They have so many picks. They have a good frontcourt. They have Larry Nance coming off the bench. Valanchun is a really good starting center. Jackson Hayes has been good starting for them. Herb Jones is one of the better defenders in all of the NBA as a rookie.

Trey Murphy's come along in the back half of this year off their bench as a rookie as well so this new orleans team all they're missing is zion or another star and i think for them either the decision that they're going to have to make this offseason giving him the money or not um it it's not easy to do here because there's it's not like he's all you have. The Pelicans have a lot else on their roster that's good and encouraging for their future. And a ton of picks. And these Laker picks,

that might be awesome. Way better picks than I think we even expected. I'm really nervous about Zion. I don't think we have... I think we have a really extended sample size at this point. And I don't think we're in a good place with it. I was watching,

somebody sent me some Duke highlights of him and it's like watching another human being. And unless you can tell me he can get back to that weight or close and you know, for sure he can do it and that the people around him are going to be focused on it. The whole thing. I just would be really nervous.

On the other hand, if I'm a team like the Knicks and I'm going nowhere and I can get rid of Randall in the trade and throw some picks in, it would be hard not to consider that. But I think the Knicks are focused on Mitchell is my guess. Did that highlight package you got sent include

that dunk he had on the corner three? I think it was a DeAndre Hunter three-pointer, if I remember correctly. They didn't include that way. He just kind of flew from the paint all the way to the corner three. It's absurd. That's the thing. He's like one of the all-time freak athletes we've ever had, but there's a reason Giannis is going to be in the top three in the MVP again. And there's a reason he feels like he's getting better. That guy, all he's done is devote himself to being awesome at basketball. And we just haven't seen it with Zion. I don't know if he has that in him.

Giannis had it. You talk to anyone with the Bucs, from the moment he showed up, he had it. And as I get older and I watch what makes these guys succeed versus what makes them not succeed, it's that extra piece of just that constant day-to-day desire to just be great. That clip of Giannis, you're talking about the one recently, right? Where he's talking about the growth mindset, control what you can control. That's the one you're referring to with him. Well, there was another one floating around about when he was a kid. He looks like he's 12, but he's on the bucks. And they're like, what do you want? He's like, I want to be the MVP

someday. And everybody laughs because it seemed inconceivable. But that guy from the moment he showed up was completely possessed. And I don't know, I thought Zion was getting it last year, but now I'm concerned. All right. We're going to take a break, come back with Eddie Johnson. KOC, a pleasure to see you as always thanks for doing the double duty today thank you Bill alright that's it for the podcast thanks to KOC

thanks to Waz thanks to Kyle Creighton our producer thanks to Steve Cerruti and Dylan Berkey as well I had a whole thing I did with Eddie Johnson

today but we we went so long with all the other stuff I'm gonna run that on Thursday sorry Eddie you weren't bumped I just wanted to give you on Thursday. Sorry, Eddie. You weren't bumped. I just wanted to give you

the proper amount of time. Eddie is the Suns announcer. He's on the show with Justin Termini on the NBA channel on Sirius. And he had a great career. But we had a really good talk about the Suns and a lot of stuff. So I didn't want to have

a two hour plus podcast when there's so much going on. So we'll run out. We'll run Eddie on Thursday. Sorry, Eddie, you weren't bumped. I just wanted to give you the spotlight.

Don't get mad at me. We'll be back on this podcast on Thursday. See you then. On the wayside, never on the side I don't have feelings within On the wayside, never on the side I don't have feelings within