The Bill Simmons Podcast - Atlanta’s Options, PG-13’s Future, Advice for GSW, Edmonton’s Comeback, and the Karen Read Trial With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss Paul George trade buzz, what they would do if they were the Warriors (2:08), the trade value of the Hawks' first overall draft pick, best fits for the lottery players (23:34), the Josh Giddey–Alex Caruso trade, advice for the Bulls and Pistons (56:03), all-time GM draft performances, NHL finals Game 7, the Karen Read trial (1:18:36), and more! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's on prime. We're also brought to you by the ringer podcast network. I have new rewatchables coming for you. It is the last episode of 70 sports movie month. We did slap shot. We did longest yard. We did breaking away three of the OGs. So then obviously we had to do bad news bears, the kids sports movie, really for adults that started it all. And we talk about it, me and Van Lathan, we hit everything. I had a great time. It's coming Monday night. And actually starting this week, we're going to be putting up second episodes during the week because we want to burn off some of those rewatchables 1999 episodes that we did five years ago. I mean, we're almost at the five-year max for when we can run those,

but we did some really good episodes. So we're going to start running those as a second episode every week throughout the summer. Stay tuned for that. Don't forget to check out the Ringer NBA show, the Ringer NBA draft show, the mismatch, all of our NBA shows, because this will probably be the last fun basketball stretch for a while. Got 10 days here, draft, trades, free agency rumors, free agency signings, and we're going to be covering it all on themariner.com, a great website as well, and on all of our podcasts. Coming up on this one, Ryan Russo and I are going to talk about everything we're hearing heading into the NBA Draft, and we have a bunch of fun segments. We planned this out beautifully. It's time to bring in our friends, Pearl Jam. All right, taping this 4 o'clock Pacific time on Sunday.

Ryan Rosillo is here. The last time we potted, we were wondering if the Celtics were going to show up for Game 5 in the finals. It seems like a million years ago, there's been a Game 5 title win, a parade, some really fun Celtics moments. We're not going to talk about the Celtics. We're going to look forward. We're going to talk about the draft, some trade rumors we heard. We have a bunch of fun topics. We're going to do a little Oilers-Panthers game seven near the end.

You finally caught up on the Karen Reid trial. So I'm excited for this one. We're going to start with a zag. Paul George, some smoke now as we do this on a Sunday that maybe he's not going to be on the Clippers next year. And as always with this stuff, I cannot tell what's real and not real. I just know that there's a bunch of teams now that feel like they might have a chance, whether to sign him outright or to maybe trade for him or whatever. And people are looking at the Clippers. What are they thinking?

They've never made the finals with Paul George. Are they going to pay Kawhi and Harden and Paul George all this money? Paul George heading into year 15. All this stuff we've talked about in the past. What's your shit detector level for this story? Because it could always just be the posturing and it ends up he just signs with the Clippers.

He also has his own podcast. He has CAA behind him. They love to create some drama as we head into events. So I'm cautious, but I do feel like he's the biggest domino right now. So what are you thinking about it? Yeah, a lot to get to with this one. I thought it was

interesting that on his podcast he talked about how harden told him daryl morey's a liar and players talk and i was like you realize you're hurting your own leverage option here by saying with the most with the team that has the most leverage for you to use i know we're getting into this but like there's been a lot of slip-ups lately with all of this access that we have to players. I thought there was one that I sent you where Rich Paul was doing this really front-facing media thing about Bronny James.

And like, well, maybe Minnesota who likes him, but we don't know what the ownership's going to be. I'm like, I don't know if that's the number one thing for Bronny at this stage. It'd be like, is your ownership secure? Yeah. He talked about Toronto and Masai being an uncle and all that stuff. But I thought it was really interesting when he said, hey, if this was about him playing with LeBron, then we just forced the Lakers to take him at 17.

And I went, hmm, that's a slightly different tune than when you tell us all the time LeBron has nothing to do with front office stuff, has nothing to do with the coach. And it was a very straightforward, we'd tell the Lakers to do this. And I went, well, wait, that's the exact opposite tone of everything you said. So anyway, back to the Paul George thing. I love all the access because we get some different thoughts on it. I think it's pretty clear, Bill, and you'd probably agree that he's not been happy about this negotiation for a long time. I'm sure he and CAA felt like, okay, the four-year max, this is who I am. This is what I'm going to do. I know Kawhi took a little bit less, but I'm just supposed to get that. It's Balmer. I'm just supposed to get that. And clearly that's not what the Clippers want to do with him. So this has been a longstanding thing because it could have already been done.

And clearly the Clippers don't want to just hand them the blank check that you're supposed to get for the four-year max. I can't tell how much of this is we don't want to do anything different for you than we already did with Kawhi. How much of it is, well, Kawhi Harden, Paul George, second apron. It's starting to get a little scary. Let's see how this plays out for three years instead of four. Or the Clippers are looking at it going, you know, we kind of didn't win anything with this nucleus. Maybe we have a chance to turn the asset.

The team that has been floating around, and I don't know how real it is, but I think there's an equal sense of desperation on their side as Golden State. Because Golden State, and this is, it's been reported, people know about it, but I actually feel like it should be the top story. Anytime we're talking trades, it should be the first thing mentioned. Golden State with this situation and with Chris Paul's contract. So on June 28th, they either have to guarantee Chris Paul's contract for next season, which is $30 million, or they have to buy it out for $5 million. So it's still a trade asset. The problem is you can't trade him this week and then the new team can say, oh, cool, we'll just waive Chris

Paul's contract and we'll wipe that $30 million off the books. The contract has to be guaranteed by the new team. But the Clippers, who are a second apron team, and it gets really hard to make trades with second apron teams, the Warriors would also be a second apron team if they kept Klay Thompson. But if they get rid of Klay Thompson, all of a sudden they're not, which means that there's two possible Clipper trades that they could do for Paul George. One is they could combine Chris Paul, that contract, Clippers would have to guarantee it next year, with Kaminga, with Gary Payton,

for Paul George. The other one is you take Chris Paul with Draymond Green, you trade them the Clippers, and they send back Paul George and P.J. Tucker. And I think they could do that. If they can't, then we only have the first option. But that is how the Warriors can get Paul George. They would have to basically guarantee Chris Paul's contract next year. And then they would have to make it work with like Kaminga and Payton and make it so that it is almost exactly where Paul George's salary is. And then it works.

And tell me if you agree with me. If you're going state, like you have this once in a generation ticket with Curry. Are you really going to waste that? Like, are you just going to say, ah, we had a good run. We won in 22. Now let's have the mid 2010s Kobe retirement tour

for the rest of the decade, basically. I don't think they want that. I don't think he wants that. So I'm watching them the most with Trade Week here. How about you? Yeah. Look, you can not want a lot of things. It doesn't mean you get those things. And I'd agree with you that they probably owe it to Steph more than any franchise owes a single player in the NBA of like, look, you're still really good. And there's a two-year window. That's its own topic of like, how's that going to look? Are they just going to extend them and then go, we never want another uniform, even though we know long-term, we might not even have enough around you. And then maybe that leads all different

stuff that we're speculating on. Again, we've got time for that one. But it's funny because in the past, like Paul George was offered for Clay Thompson when he was still with the Pacers. Kevin Pritchard was offering Paul George everywhere. And even if you, at that time, I think the consensus would have been, okay, wait, Paul George is better than Clay Thompson. But what you're doing is you're trading your non-problem for the Paul George problem. Well, fast forward a bunch of years. And if you look at the Warrior situation, like there's all these players, we could talk about Jimmy Butler,

we could talk about Paul George. There's some lesser people like Levine or Kuzma or whatever. It's like, well, how do we, if you're the Warriors, how do we raise just our level of talent? Doesn't guarantee us anything. Paul George may not even fit our movement and all the stuff that we're doing, but based on the options

and what we'd have to actually invest in the player on top of everything else, whether it's a Butler extension or a Paul George extension, at this point, I think you're so desperate with where you are in the limitations you have financially, the lack of assets around the people that you don't want to even move, where it probably starts to make a little bit more sense because now you're not looking at yourself as some perfect engine where you don't want a non-Golden State Warrior-type basketball player to disrupt what you're doing.

You're looking for anybody to be just way better than what your second or third options have been. And that leads to the clay decision that they're going to have to make. Like when you mentioned Chris Paul and Draymond, I don't think you have to give up that much because George is going to be able to say, look, much like the Chris Paul scenario in 2017 with the Clippers going to the Rockets, you can either trade me to this team,

which I'll opt in and then get an extension later, or you're going to lose me for nothing. Well, we saw Philly have that with Harden, right? Harden could have opted out for free agency. We didn't have the same kind of teams with cap space that we do this year, but he opts in and then it's like, yeah, trade me. And what does Philly end up with? They end up with Batum and Covington and they get a couple of picks. And that was it.

I think they got less than maybe they were hoping. I think the Paul George thing is a little different because there's more suitors for him, right? Like it's not just Golden State. I think the, the L him, right? Like, it's not just Golden State. I think the Lakers. Like, what if... Is there a possible LeBron-Paul George swap-a-roo? Is that conceivable?

I don't know. Like, if you're Balmer, could you get super excited about that because you got the arena open up and you just flip those guys? Maybe even give more assets for that. If you're the Rockets... Do you think the Lakers would want LeBron

in a Clippers uniform, even if it meant Paul George? I don't know what they meant. This is the same franchise that put out like a two-sentence farewell to Jerry West, who was one of the greatest Lakers of all time. They're like, Jerry was a very valuable person.

Thank you. We're going to miss him. Houston, I just think they're in play for anybody and anything because of all that. They're the most three-for-one type of team we've seen in a while. And then Orlando and Philly just have the cap space to sign them. And that's the scary part if you're the Clippers.

Because unlike the Harden year with Philly, it was one of those, well, where are you going to go, James? Right? Where are you getting that money? Because Dallas is re-signing Kyrie. We're going down the line. Who is the cap space you're looking for? Houston pivoted away from you, got Van Vliet and Brooks. You don't have the team. There are two teams in this case. And then three, if he just wanted to get a lot of money from Detroit, which I don't even know if Detroit would want to do that. But the Golden State scenario, I think, is the most interesting to me.

Would you agree, though, that they probably don't have to do, like, if you're getting Kaminga back in this, then maybe I don't get off Draymond. I mean, we were going to do a what would you do later with Golden State. We could just do it now because it's not that long. There's three paths. They could just get rid of Chris Paul, just not re-sign him. They could let Clay sign with somebody else.

They could package Chris Paul with Drayvon and try to trade him for Paul George or somebody like that and just try to get rid of all three contracts and basically just move into the next phase and just say, you know what? We built our building. We've won four titles. We won in 22. We're going to go with Steph and the young guys and we're bidding goodbye to that era. Or you go the other way and you say, we're going to use this Chris Paul contract. We're going to keep paying this crazy luxury tax second apron thing that last year, I think they set the record for the highest tax number anybody had paid. And we're just going to keep doing that because we're the Warriors and because we have Steph.

And if that's the case, then use the Chris Paul thing. Because otherwise, you're paying him $30 million basically to be your ninth man and to be a trade asset in February. I don't see how they would do that. Well, there's no way they're going to do that. Because they're at $174 million with Chris Paul and Looney where that option for eight plus million is tomorrow. And then that's with Santos under contract. So they're not even covering Clay yet. No, that's without Clay.

So the cap next year is 141. The tax is 171.3. The first apron is 178. So as soon as you do a deal with clay and the reported deal that he wasn't interested in what was two years and 48 million so I don't know

but we did this last year with Draymond where they're like he be he's gonna leave it's not enough money it's not not happening and then all of a sudden he was

resigning for four years I don't trust any of the clay reports do you not when the numbers like I I just feel like we're hit over the head with numbers. I mean, it happens in media too with guys that do our jobs where this number just gets floated and everybody freaks out. It's the Boris thing.

Just floated absurd number. Because like remember with Draymond, you're going, wait, are you really going to go like four years 160 for him? And then it turns out to be like, oh, three for 100. But you probably felt better about Draymond a year ago than you feel about Clay present day, correct? go like four years 160 for him and then it turns out to be like oh three for a hundred but you probably felt better about draymond a year ago than you feel about clay present day correct yes listen there's a scenario where they just let clay clay leave and they let chris paul leave and they're just like you know what we looked at the west We looked at the West. We looked at the East. We have no chance to compete against a team like Boston or wherever OKC is going. Minnesota, Dallas, we can't swim in that

pool anymore. And we're trying to be realistic about it. We're not going to chase it. We didn't even make the playoffs last year. What's really going to be different for us? What could be different is if they made a huge swing at Paul George. You mentioned a couple of those names, right? It's like Paul George and Jimmy Butler is tier A. Tier B is talking yourself into Brandon Ingram, who I think has more value than Zach Levine. But Steve Kerr coached Brandon Ingram on Team USA. And by the end of the thing, Brandon Ingram's like, yeah, he's not going to play in the last two games. And Zach Levine, where you could almost argue that's a negative asset.

And then the third tier would be, let's just rebuild and just Curry will sell out the arena and that's what we're going to do. And we have no chance to win the title. My guess is they're too competitive to do that, but that might be the smart move. I don't know how different you'll be, though, starting the rebuild now with Steph

the attraction as opposed to worrying about the Steph decision in two years. Right. See what I'm saying? You're right. Everything you said is right. But if you're on the Golden State side of it, you could probably talk yourself into a few things. You say, hey, last 50 games they were 31-19. It was the

eighth best record in the NBA. From that stretch, they were on offense 16th in defense clay after the all-star break was a better player he was his splits his shooting splits were 45 41 if you want to look at his total two years he's kind of a net negative and defensively he's just not the same but there was some good clay closing months from the season in a stretch where he got benched and people were wondering what he was even going to be in the free agent market. So you also, which is a big assumption, you go, it has to be a better Draymond year, right? Does it? It has to be. Does it? Do you think it's going to get worse i will be the same amount of drama that we had last year i

don't know i wouldn't bet on it either way i i can't say that i've seen a lot of signs that it's going to be less dramatic it just was so dramatic i just have a hard time believing like we're going to get the exact same thing i mean the guy basically conned all of us into thinking that it was like i'm just going to step away from the game like it was an unbelievable spin on all of this stuff it's like hey just stop fucking punching people and it was like i just gotta step away from the game like it was an unbelievable spin on all of this stuff it's like hey just stop fucking punching people and it was like i just have to figure out where i'm at right now self-aware in any conceivable way well and speaking of self-aware like one of the things they have to do with clay malik monk who i think if you're going to compare clay at an advancing age to different scores in the league who are a little

up and down, or maybe they can't guard anybody that well and they're more consistent offensively or whatever. Malik Monk was 78 million for four years. Is Klay Thompson worth more than Malik Monk? I would say no. I would say that's right around his range, whether it's two years, three years or four, it's probably between like 17 to 20 million a year for what he is at this point of his career. The question is, does he think that? And I'm going to, I'm going to guess no. By the way, have you been watching the English patient? No. Why?

Or the King speech? Why? Just your work with Malik Monk. Oh, you know. You said his name right twice. We're all trying to get better. You said his name right twice. We're all trying to get better. It doesn't matter how old you are.

We're all trying to improve. I can't say Wimbledon. I still call it Wimbledon. Get ready for that with the T instead of the D. Robert Ory is probably out there being like, why does he think I sleep around so much? Robert, I have some bad ones. I'll fully admit it.

All right, so you're Paul George. We all have a few. Your Paul George prediction is what? Hold on. I just want to stay like on the Golden State. You're right about all of the rest of the West. Like if they're being honest, if Dunleavy and Kerr and Lakup and they're all talking to each other

and going, hey, we're not going to be better than any of those teams. But if you wanted to have a positive day, you would say all the things I said. You go, okay, Pajemski will be better. Jackson Davis was a hit. Kaminga finally showed us some stretches of being a real thing here. So you may not even be in a hurry to be trading him for anybody else.

Less dramatic Draymond year. Less dramatic Draymond year. Less dramatic Draymond year. And I know what'll happen if Chris Paul's waived and they don't get anybody, you're just going to say like, I can't believe they wasted that asset. And I'm just going to go, well, maybe, maybe Paul George can just force their hand. And that leads to a Wiggins deal and a couple of picks, and maybe it isn't even Kaminga maybe it's Looney because Jackson Davis feels like a better option there and that's how you start adding up some of the money for it because when you look at the Chris Paul Houston thing there's actually a couple decent pieces in there it's just a lot of stuff it was Pat Bev who's um

a couple couple picks right yeah it was Montrez yeah Lou Will Sam Decker shout out Kyle Wilcher for those that want to keep track DeAndre Liggins and there was a first that was Spellman so they actually like got a couple things there but that just depends on if Paul George is gonna say hey look you have to trade

me here and it's not a perfect. It doesn't make the Warriors the favorites, although on TV for 24 hours, somebody will probably say it. And maybe that's the best case scenario of just going, we're raising our talent level. right? Year 15. Played the most games he's played in five years. The previous four years, he never got north of 60 games in a season. And for Paul George to thrive, he needs to be somebody that doesn't have all the pressure on him. And Steph would take some of that pressure away from him. I still think Philadelphia makes the most sense for him because there'll be the maxi night, you know, Embiid's good for his 30, 15 or whatever. And Paul George can kind of just be a higher price Tobias Harris at times. But knowing that he'll also have some games where he looks like one of the 10 best players in the league. Because I do feel more comfortable about him

having some of those high-level playoff games. I just don't expect to pencil him in for like six or seven in a row in a long series. Higher price Tobias Harris. I'm trying't expect to pencil him in for six or seven in a row in a long series. Higher-priced Tobias Harris. I'm trying to decide how insulting that was because Tobias was making $40 million last year. I guess I just mean moving forward how much

he's going to make. No, no, but you were right. The phrase is correct. I'm like, oof. Higher-priced Tobias Harris, who's probably the least-liked sixer of the last since Ben Simmons. Right, we just saw it though, right? Against Dallas. I mean, am I unfair in saying there are moments in there where you're

looking at Paul George going, hey, Kawhi's out now. Caught him in the coin flip, brother. No, I mean, it's year 15. You're not going to change that much in year 15 as a basketball player, but I guess. He could never go anywhere right now. Like, that's why Orlando actually probably makes a little less sense unless Powell just takes it up to another level, which I think is totally within reason. I think Franz will

just by default be a better shooter this year. But if Paul George goes to a place where he has to be the one option all the time, Maxie and B take a ton of pressure off of him. Steph would. Maybe if Clay has some kind of bounce back that carries over, could he possibly be

a little bit better than he was even after the All-Star break? I don't think it's impossible or any of those things. I actually like the fit for him on the Lakers the most. If you just flipped him and LeBron, I like that fit for him. Him playing with Davis and Rui and Austin Reeves, JJ coaching. And I don't know. I just think that would be, I think the most fun basketball trade would just be flipping LeBron and Paul George and putting LeBron on the Clippers with Kawhi and James Harden. I would just enjoy that more as a basketball fan. One last thing on Golden State. The case for them doing something with that Chris Paul contract is that we just did that ringer top 100 a few days ago. I'd curry seventh. And it goes back to something I'm never going to waver on. If you have a top 10 guy

in the league, somebody who has a chance to be a first team OMA guy, somebody who has a chance, if you have the right team to be an MVP candidate, you kind of have to go for it. This was the case for OKC with SGA last year when it was like, hey guys, you might be a one seed. You have a guy who's one of the best four guys in the league. Can you take this a little more seriously? So if you're the Warriors, Steph is still at that level. Maybe he's not going to be at that level for more than a year or two years. I don't know.

But if they can turn that Chris Paul thing into a better asset, you might have to do it, especially with the way the lead, the values of the franchises are going up. And that's probably a $7 billion team at this point. By the way, in the LeBron front, as soon as he opts out though, that's just not an option.

Yeah. Good point. But couldn't they sign and trade him after he opts out though? I thought they could. I'm always confused by those rules. I think they can. Once it can be like the double, the double, the double,

uh, whatever. Um, let's take a break. Cause we want to play some games with the Atlanta number one pick. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite,

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Must be legal drinking age. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too.

You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. Atlanta's number one pick. You texted this to me and we

thought it'd be a fun segment. Who would you trade straight up for Atlanta's number one pick? It has to be a realistic trade. It has to be a trade that you could make work fairly easily under the salary cap. And it's a specific class of guys, but we did not compare notes. I'm going to be interested to see if our notes are aligned. What I thought we would do is let's fuck it. We haven't done a draft in like four weeks. Let's do straight up for Atlanta's number one pick draft. What's your favorite? I'll let you go first. What's your favorite name?

Give me one. Jalen Brown. Come on. Stop. You're ridiculous. Go. What's your favorite name? I just wanted just because i was very upset about the title of your most recent episode i was like when are we getting to the 12 burning off-season questions

with ucr rob i didn't it was a bad title it was sometimes i have good titles sometimes not as good yeah it was a little misleading i was like we're on minute 47 at jalen brown where the fuck are the questions all right uh aaron gordon aaron gordon wow okay make the case uh well his value is less away should i say sans yokich sans yokich he's two different guys like the funniest thing about him being traded for orlando is when he was in the trade market i go you know i know what everybody kind of thinks of him but like there's a reason this hasn't really worked out for a while then he goes plays in denver he's a completely different guy then i saw people being like orlando how do you let this guy go like well just yeah just scream you don't watch them just just say you don't watch it's completely different so denver probably says no because it

doesn't even make any sense right unless they wanted to reset the salary stuff but gordon's just such a perfect baseline fit for everything they do so i'm not even saying that i was doing i was trying to trust like just trying to think of like player value level well you know what i like you know what i like about that his salary is not that expensive he's 22.8 next year so that with that with atlanta's weird team like they have capella's expiring at 20 so you so they would be able to just easily make that roster move and add the number one pick to it and then denver could flip Capella or it could be Bogdanovich. Bogdanovich, the number one pick for Aaron Gordon, which then seems like too much.

I like that one. All right, here's my first choice. Trey Murphy. And I think the Pelicans say no. Unless they wanted Klingin and just said, okay, post-Valentunas, we have a better big option, maybe defensively. Well, you do.

You just do. I mean, Valentunas is a bruiser. It actually stretches the floor a little bit. But you could see some stuff in OKC where you thought, Valentunas is getting all these rebounds, but Willie Green still wanted to play small with Nance. Yeah. So you're like, okay, well, what does that tell you? Would you rather have Trey Murphy than any player in this draft?

Yeah. See, this is really what the exercise is. Yes. This is why we're doing it. I think I would rather have Trey Murphy than any player in the draft. I love Trey Murphy. Me too. I'm going to say I'd rather have Trey Murphy just because I can't wait to see what this year looks like for Trey Murphy. And that's an easy trade because he's still on a rookie. He's making like $4 million a year. All right, you go.

Does Utah say no to Atlanta if they ask for Larry Markkinen? Yes. I think you would have to throw in. I think you'd have to throw in Murray with the number one pick to get Utah to even consider that one. I think he's too good. Okay. All right.

I'm going to go. Let's stay with the Pelicans. Herb Jones straight up for the number one pick a little harder. Cause he just signed an extension. Would you rather have every player in this draft? Yeah. straight up for the number one pick. A little harder because he just signed an extension. Would you rather have Herb Jones than every player in this draft? Yeah, we just have to have fun with it. I love Herb Jones.

But I would say based on the upside part of it, if you just hammered the work a week in and go, hey, we actually think like Saar, we think Risa Shea, you probably would do it if you were the Pelicans. in and go, hey, we actually think like Saar, we think Risa Shea, you probably would do it if you were the Pelicans. The reason the Pelicans came to mind first is because those two

guys together with Zion and with Brandon Ingram and it's just clearly now it seems like they're going to trade Brandon Ingram. But it just feels like one of those guys is expendable if they wanted to create a different type of team. Who knows what they'd do.

You go next. You think R.J. Barrett would get it done? No, I don't. Atlanta would say no. I don't. I think Toronto would have to throw in Grady Dick as well just to even get Atlanta to hang up. You get an all-rookie vote.

I have a good one. Cerruti's going to be mad. I love how stupid this is. It's great. Cerruti's going to be mad. Franz Wagner. That's ridiculous. At least with Utah and Lowry, you go, okay, let's just start it.

And there's a guy we actually like. Franz is, it's not saying like Franz is so much better than Lowry, but Franz makes so much more sense for what Orlando is doing. That's, that's a, Cerruti should be upset by that one. I think I agree with you. I'm just, we're drafting names. You go. Uh,

I have like five more names. Just FYI. Mitchell Robinson. Yeah. I think that's a no from Atlanta. This is 15 a year. I'd, I'd just rather take Klingon and get him on a rookie contract for four years and have that.

Wouldn't you? Yeah. Look, I'm trying to nail the target here. Kaysan Wallace. I think OKC would be OK with that. They would trade Kaysan Wallace for the number one pick in the draft, you think? Yeah, I think they would.

I'm 50-50 on it. I think you make a KC either way. I actually don't think Atlanta would do it because they're like, well, why do we need a guard? We have Trae Young and Murray. All right, you go next. Cam Whitmore. Like, well, why do we need a guard? We have Trae Young and Murray. All right, you go next. Cam Whitmore.

I don't think he's enough. I don't think so, yeah. Too small sample size. What about Keegan Murray? Ooh. Oh! I thought of a lot of Kings. Would Sabonis get it done? Would Sacramento say yes?

Now the Kings fans are going to be mad at you. Oh, this is all... Sabonis is too good for the number one pick. Keegan Murray is right around the right side, but he either signed the extension or he's about to. But the real exercise here is, all the players we're venturing, would they go first in the draft?

You don't have to worry about the contract yet. I think we're a year away from it, though. Yeah, but it's not impending. I only have one more. Does Tyler Hero get it done? He does not. Not after watching what the Celtics did to him in the playoffs. Austin Reeves is a no, but I just wanted to mention him

so he didn't feel left out. Wait, so if you were Atlanta and the Lakers offered Reeves, you would say yes? No, I'd say no. I'm saying no. All right. I didn't know if we were getting a no from the Lakers side or not. I subscribe to the Joe House theory in this draft, which is if you're in the top two,

you can think it, overthink it, do whatever you want. But both of those UConn guys are going to be, I think, really safe bets to be good NBA players, at the very least, on rookie contracts for the next four years. So unless I can trump that, I'm keeping the pick. I had a... My favorite fake trade with this pick, or it actually doesn't involve the pick,

but involves the Hawks, is Bridges with Ben Simmons. Sam Houser? No. Mikael Bridges and Ben Simmons expiring for Trey, and Capella's expiring. And then the Hawks take Reed Shepard with the first pick. It's the most fun version of a Hawks situation. And then they would have Reed, DeJounte Murray,

they'd have Mikael Bridges, they'd have Hunter. I would just like the framework of it better and then Brooklyn could build around Trey. You've been really good on the Trey destinations for different motivations. Where Brooklyn, it's like, okay, here's your star. Put him on the side of Barclays. Nick's killer, Trey Young, is here.

So you would do that, though. You would trade Trey and the pieces it would take for Bridges as those being the two focal points. Yeah. Because Capella, whatever, he's an expiring and he's probably overpaid as a center at this point. So basically it's, I'm turning Bridges at 25 billion. I'm getting that instead of Trey at 40. And then I'm bringing back Ben Simmons to Atlanta where, you know, his career unraveled, maybe seeing if I can unlock it.

Bring him back. It's like when the person in the horror movie goes back to the house where all the bad things happen. Maybe they can unlock some demons. Jared Allen was the only other name I had. I only had Beal because it doesn't make any sense for the Atlanta thing. No. Because Jared Allen's $20 million and Kaminga is $8 million. That's another one I guess you could technically say.

Would Kaminga go number one in this draft? Well, if we start doing the salary stuff, it makes all this a lot more challenging. I'm just trying to think of like one GM calls the other. Here's the framework of it. Are you interested? Who hangs up? And it felt like a lot of these were hangups. The Trey Murphy one's really interesting.

So what would you do if you're Atlanta? It feels like Klingon's the guy. He makes the most sense if they're not going to blow up their team in any real way. And there hasn't been any real trade buzz yet about either guy. Now, they have a semi-new regime and maybe some stuff's quiet. We've seen trades happen with no buzz before. But I don't understand if they keep the pick, why it wouldn't be Klingin.

Only that, well, honestly, from an offensive standpoint, again, I even don't know what the rest of the pieces are going to be here. But I mean, Klingin on trade lobs, if trade's still there, it's going to be awesome. Maybe they feel like Klingin, as you've had a diminishing Capella, a Congo who I like, but do they look at Klingon as somebody who's going to be that much better as a security blanket from the blown perimeter stuff that Atlanta is always likely to give up

with this current backcourt? Because it wasn't like DeJounte was locking anybody up either. But do they think Klingin, I mean, Quinn Snyder at one point, I remember it was just an awful Hawks loss. The defense was atrocious. And I, instead of like going to the next game, I go, I'm going to stay here with the Hawks postgame presser. And Snyder just looked like a defeated man on that night.

I'm not saying for like the season but on that night and it's all out there you could watch it if you actually care uh which I wouldn't expect anybody would care enough to watch it but he was just like we I'm paraphrasing but we're just so bad on the perimeter so maybe they look at Klingon saying like Sar is still so raw um and apparently like Sar this is the funny thing I think with SAR and the way his guys are handling it. He still hasn't worked out as of today, I believe with Atlanta. And I wonder if they look at it going like, no, we want you to go to, because there's no one else there to take shots. So even if you aren't good, you're going to get two years worth of shots and two years worth of stats and nothing else is going to be in your way. We're playing in is a better basketball fit

and SAR to Washington is a better career fit to get whether, you know, look, maybe he will end up being good and all this be justified, or maybe he'll just get a bunch of opportunities and put up some stats and make second team all rookie. And we still don't even know if he's any good

because there aren't that many other options in Washington. Although I still wonder, Klingin feels like when you talk to other teams, I hear Klingin at one with Atlanta more than anybody else right now, okay? Which is not what the Moxon is. And Saar at Washington seems to be consensus at this point, which is crazy. It feels like consensus without any certainty though. Like there's different stuff that you'll hear before the draft with lottery with lottery guys are like, Hey, well, who's the most rumored guy to go where, or like,

what are you hearing the most of? And SAR feels like more of an assumption, just kind of the default guy to go. If Klingon goes one where like read Shepard in Houston, that one feels like there's real momentum. There'll be examples shared where you're like, okay, well that seems very specific where the SAR one never feels specific.

It just feels like everybody's just saying the same thing as everybody else. The chalk version of this draft seems to be Klingon, SAR, Shepard at three, and then the Spurs somehow get Rizashe at four. Yeah. And I think Modest. Which would be a marabou for them. I think Modest to Detroit at five is pretty consistent. But what you just laid out would match, I'd say,

of all the different things that I've talked with people about, I'll kind of just... What names am I hearing at the same spot over and over and over again? And that's how the five have played out in most conversations. If I was Atlanta, I would trade with San Antonio and try to flip spots with them and try to, uh, try to go back from one to four, pick up something extra. It doesn't have to be spectacular. And, um, I feel like I'd get clinging at four because I don't think, I don't think

two or three has taken them. Houston's going to take Shepard. The Spurs, if they moved up, I wonder if they would... I wonder, who do you think is number one on the Spurs board just for... We're trying to build a team around Wemby and you're sitting there going, shit, somebody might take him before us at four. Should we just move up to one? It won't even cost that much to try to get him because you could say it's getting another French wing. Now they also have a bunch of wings already in their team, but Reed Shepard, and you laid out the case for him last week, is by far the most fun fit next to Wimby for a variety of reasons. And part of me wonders,

would they just trade up because everybody thinks Houston likes Shepard at three? Maybe you trade up from four to one, give up something extra, not number eight, but one of those other picks they have and just grab Shepard at one. So who's on their board, do you think? It feels like Risa Shea. Yeah.

But then sometimes I watch him and I think Salon might be as good as he is i've i've done a double zag on uh reese's shea okay now i'm kind of back in on him a little bit all right he's like he's 610 i like his stroke he's athletic i like some of his fist pumps on the youtube clip i mean i can't tell you how great fist stroke general of a draft fan i've been this year i'm not going to pretend to be athletic i like some of his fist pumps on the youtube clip i mean i can't tell you how great fist stroke general of a draft fan i've been this year i'm not going to pretend to be an expert just like i test stuff i'm watching i'm like ah this kid i can see it but i think this whole point

of this draft in the top five is anybody who's like i am positive 100 this guy is going to be this like this is not the draft for that there's's a lot of like, I can see it. Ah, yeah, maybe. It's that. So it's like whatever your yeah, maybe, however strongly you feel about the yeah, maybe, that's maybe you should take. SAR for me is like smoking cigarettes.

If I don't have anything to do, I'll just be like, let me watch some SAR. Let's go get another. I keep waiting to see something else and that's the lesson is that this is what it is. This is what it is. And for a guy his size

to carry it as well as he does and his end-to-end stuff, he had a turnover. Somebody blocked his shot, the ball was turned over, he grabbed it in the paint and he went coast-to-coast. He crossed over a guy at half-court. ball was turned over he grabbed in the paint and he went coast to coast he crossed over a guy at half court he had an animal on in the paint and you're just like jesus the pick and pop stuff the shot out of his hands like it looks there's a lot there but there's also wiseman will always haunt me and that as i watched him i go the best stuff is right the best stuff is really really good but you know right here when he has no instincts and it's not fluid

and he's thinking about what he's supposed to do, it looks awful. And this is what big guy busts look like. And I went, we'll go with that he's so young and we only get to see the three games. And it was a massive whiff. So when I look at Saar, I know why you could fall in love with him. But I kept hoping to see something else or something else. And I go, no, this is the whole point.

This is the whole point of this year. I want to ask you a question. Wait, last thing on big guys. They're so hard when the case is always like, oh, man, he's only 19. That's what I fell for with Wiseman. Oh, man. Imagine four years from now. And you just don't know. Like sometimes they're just big and raw and athletic at 19 and then they're 22 and guess what?

They still are big and raw and athletic and they don't have real basketball instincts. So I've just like given up. I, to me, it's like quarterbacks trying to figure out, like, Michael Penix. Sure, maybe. You know, the centers are too hard. Yeah, I mean, Wiseman, when he wasn't thinking, like, there would be possessions where he'd get the ball and he would just instinctively go into this amazing, like, jump shot. Like, he'd jab, dribble you, and then go up.

Like Bob Lanier, yeah. yeah and i was like what is this like this isn't it looks so good out of his hands and i went okay this is like the best version of this is all of these things but again if it doesn't get any better you're right about the quarterback thing but i was thinking about that with brady's interview with colin cowherd so cow herd which i could tell what cowherd was doing he He was trying to try to get Brady to share some of those moments with Belichick where he'd be butting heads that we've all read about. Okay. And Brady, because he's been doing this such a long time, completely flips it and talks

about how great Belichick was on a Saturday. All right. And Brady continues to give this awesome answer. And by the way, like all the stuff that we've seen with Greg Olson and how Brady's been and how like, this is such a weird situation because Olson's like the best doing it. And now he's going to get replaced. I didn't know if Brady was just the star attraction that networks absolutely love and love bringing up to upfronts. And it's like, we've got Brady. We don't even care what the fucking number is. But some of the stuff that Brady's doing is he's sharing these stories in

the media. I'm like, he might actually like, this guy might be awesome at this so we'll see but wait are you are you on brady's actually going to be good on tv island because i was thinking i was looking at redfin the other day looking at houses i agree with you he's way more candid than i was ever expecting i think he might be awesome okay he was so good with cowherd so back to the evaluation thing and it dawned on me listening to his answer I've already talked about this because I talk about quarterback evaluation too much on my podcast but Brady then goes further in a depth he goes what I liked about Saturdays is like we'd install okay and there's a hundred play calls and there's all these different things and be like okay well this play no matter what happens like if they bring a safety down then we're done and he goes and a lot of coaches

you just be like hey tip your cap to them they won and he's like i would never want to give it away so i'd be like no we need a call we needed to say great or whatever and he'd be sharing all these things he's like once we see this and we do the install and the walkthrough and all the different things like if that's something that we're seeing that they do that can blow up this one play call that we have designed for this Sunday, why are we going to let them get one? Why are we giving one away just based on a look that we don't have any kind of counter for? So I want a counter. That is the quarterback position.

And we never talk about that ever when we're talking about quarterbacks being drafted. One, because we don't have access to understanding how these kids operate or if this is even something they're capable of or they've ever been questioned with. But we spend all this time talking about quarterbacks and evaluation when really all the things that we're prioritizing have nothing to do with the guys that are actually successful on Sundays. And Brady shared with us another example of why he's the greatest and what the great ones do in their preparation, recognition, all these different things.

And we're still sitting here in 2024 talking about fucking arm strength. Charisma, intelligence, and competitiveness. It's those three traits. That's it. If you have those three and you're physically

good, you don't even have to be great. You can be physically good, but if you have those other three and that's what it is over and over again. I feel like we're starting to figure out quarterbacks more and more as it goes. We've spent so much time talking about it. I still don't feel that confident about it when we get to that

Pennix, Bo Nix level. I'm just like, Joe Burrow, that was a pretty safe bet. The stuff you read about Mahomes after the fact, it was like, this guy's fucking an animal. But it's knowing the person. There's this joke about how banking is infested with lacrosse players. And it's like, well, one of the things that people want in finance is guys that are like

insanely competitive. Yeah. Granted, I've got some lacrosse buddies that I would not say were super dialed in throughout the entire season, but there were others that were just maniacs. And I'd be like, do you know there's no league after this?

Really? Like, I know there's like two, but there's not, especially back when I was, I'm not talking about like the league options now for cross but there's something to the now in basketball no one is tasked with the quarterback job i don't know that even the best basketball players have to dissect what a quarterback has to do so we can still go back to physical traits and there's

just different guys but i think the point guard position, I think resembles it a little bit. Like when you can see how somebody, the way they can lead a team and understand the rhythm of a game, I think is something you could see at the college level. When I look at centers and the reason I like Klingin, I don't know if he'll ever make an all-star team, but he does two things that I know work in the NBA. He protects the rim and he can, he can dunk those lob passes. We know that works. He's really good at both of those things. So for me, the room for error with him is the slimmest. Whereas I look at SAR and I'm like, man,

we've seen that fail before, but we've also been wrong on those guys. Right? Like, could he be Serge Ibaka? Is that possible? Could he be like a, a,

a better rebounding version of Serge Ibaka? I don't know. He'll spread the floor like Serge eventually did. But we didn't know Serge was going to shoot threes when he came in the league. He was just like this kind of runner-dunker guy. I didn't think Rudy could walk when he got drafted. Okay? Right.

Clint Capella, I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what this is. And it's also, for some of these bigs, especially now, guys that can't stretch the floor, it's like you have to have a willing guard.

You got to have somebody who wants you involved in some of this stuff. Like, Clint Capella living with Harden during those years, that was an awesome version of Clint Capella.

Yeah. Because it's like switch, contest, try to run guys off, drop coverage, all this stuff. Like, you're going to be moving around a ton. And then on offense, you're going to be eating for free all the time because

Harden was so good at catching the defenders in between decisions. And the second you showed what you were going to do to Harden, he would burn you. And Trey is great at that. So if Trey's still there and it's clinging, and I think you said something- That makes sense with Trey. Yeah. And I think you said something that was really good there too. And it's Klingin. That picks make sense with Trey. Yeah, and I think you said something that was really good there too. And it's kind of like the old Belichick thing as we're talking to little Pats here. It's just, stop telling me what these guys can't do.

Tell me what they can do. And for Klingin, there's nothing to suggest that all of a sudden he's going to start shooting threes in three years. And maybe we should stop asking for that all the time. Yeah. Quickly. I want to ask you.

I know I have to ask you i know i have to ask you something does castle to the spurs make sense not for the team they have but it feels like a very spurs pick like they i could see them taking them at four and just being like oh yeah of course of course they were going to take them right but i just there's part of me after the sohan point guard experiment where i'm like are you gonna kind of try to do a version of this again right just try to do a better version of it somebody who actually can play point guard a tiny bit see i i just like i like him more than any wing that they have other than sohan so i really like. I at least know what he is,

you know, and with the, with the, with the floor for whatever he is, is still somebody that can be in the league and be in the top seven on a playoff team. I think, um,

can I give you best situation match for every lottery pick? I want you to give them to me. Klingon. I had Atlanta, but I also think he'd be really fun on Memphis and on Charlotte and on OKC. I actually had him on the most teams where I'd be like, oh, that would be fun if he was on that team. Is there any other Klingon team you would have?

Memphis? Yeah. Memphis yeah Shepard Houston and San Antonio seem fun to me for him anybody else Celtics we have Pritchard we don't need him

we have the king of the half court five step half court shots Peyton Pritchard special teamer Castle San Antonio. I think he'd be a good Detroit. Good wing, right? With Cunningham and Jaden,

and he's like their wing who can play guard. I mean, I don't love the Detroit team, but I actually think he'd play and fit in there. Why are you making a face? Yeah, it's Thompson if you wanted to go small. Yeah. Probably playing him at the four. Yeah, I don't hate it. I just really want to see

a non-Monte Williams, Jaden Ivey, Cade Cunningham season. I'm looking forward to it. Well, obviously, Detroit is too, since they spent $65 million to take a look at it. Saar is basically, for me, washed in or bust. It's the funniest outcome. It's going to be hilarious for

house. I like that he's going number two. There's a couple of guys in this draft where it's like, it's actually better that you're not going first. So I think we reached a shade like that too. Him going first makes me nervous for him. Cause I think when you go first, there's this inherent pressure that comes with that. If you're not good right away away or if you have a bad game people like that fucking guy went first it's tough it's really hard it's it's if you're not like a finished product that's why clinging at least could go first and be like oh yeah okay i get it but uh i think sar washington i can't think of another team other than maybe charlotte for him yeah that feels like if san Antonio takes him, you go, oh.

Like if he were to fall, and you go, oh my god, San Antonio got this guy. He was supposed to go number one. Where, granted, he's not going to last until six, but if Charlotte takes him, I'm prepared for anything with this draft, though. Remember 2013?

New Orleans fell to what, six? New Orleans was number one the whole process and then all of a sudden was dropping like a stone and we didn't know what was going on uh research a people spurs is the best fit for him for a variety of reasons Charlotte would be kind of fun too and then who's your favorite connect team uh i would love to i don't think he's gonna i think his range is seven eight nine portland san antonio memphis i would love to see him on a good team right away like the more i watched alton the more i'm like i know he's older and he would have been great on the last dance because the last dance is basically everybody just got taller. Yeah.

But connect, when you go through his entire story, you're like, and then he grew another three inches and then he grew five inches. And then all of a sudden, he's a stud. Yeah. I don't really know what you would say, like, where are the limitations for him? So, Portland. By the way, to add on that, if he came to the right team, I think he's a good rookie of the year bet.

I can see him coming in and immediately scoring. First of all, because he's 24 years old. But if it was a team that actually gave him the ball and ran some plays for him, I just think from a shooting standpoint, I think he could produce immediately. He's a slow. And it's,

it's unbelievable watching his misses. How many times you're like, I can't believe that didn't go down. Like there's some of these guys, man, like the doubts. Like I always joke about how, like I wanted to write a book,

like the five ways Michael Jordan ruined the NBA. And I'm kidding. Yeah. I don't really mean it but it was a generation of players that just thought as long as I take the last second shot and everybody knows that I have that in me doesn't matter if it goes in or not I just make sure I take it because that's what MJ would do yeah I think Steph is especially when you're prepping for the draft you go what who told you that was a good shot?

So when I put down Jacoby Walter's fit, I put the Memphis hustle. And he thinks he might be Kobe. And I knew it was bad. Who knows? He's a young guy, Baylor freshman. He has some incredible shot making, but he has some of the worst shot decisions

like since Jaden Hardy. But Hardy, in a limited situation with Dallas, they go, he's a sick athlete. He's got the body for it. Can reign him in here a little bit. The rational confidence guy. Yeah. And Jacoby has some of that in him right now

because when I did the tape for him, I think the first thing I wrote down was you're not going to like this guy and then I just watched like the rest of it um you know I think the Terrence Shannon thing is really interesting because you want to talk about like wings that can actually like there's a difference like Cody Williams I think has an idea of what he wants to do but it seems like he doesn't really know what he's doing half the time on some of these drives all right uh walter fits into that category um i think castle even has a little of that when i watched shannon just decide he's gonna go like there's another level of of shit to his game where it's it's not the adventure it is for some of these other guys like some of these guys are

like cody williams is a high-profile kid. I think the highest rate of recruit that ever went to Colorado. He's Jalen's brother, obviously. And he's this big, long, and he's supposed to kind of be a shooter and a driver and all these things. But man, hey, a lot of this ends up with you taking 15-foot turnarounds after you try to back a guy out, back a guy down on a clear out on one side for like five seconds. And it leads to this turnaround that everybody wants you to take. Everybody wants you to take that shot because it's so freaking hard.

I don't think he would fall to OKC at 12, but I wonder if they'd feel like they were sort of inclined. Yeah. J-Dubs, J-Will, and Cody? If your brother's falling, does your team have to take him if you're the number two priority on your, or maybe number three? I promise you, Sam, we'll do whatever he wants to do

and not think about that at all. Speaking of Sam, we got to take a break because we got to talk about Giddy for Caruso. Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was. Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions.

Just taking that first step makes a big difference. It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning. Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit CAMH.ca. What's your portfolio's most valuable asset? It may be your financial advisor. Financial advisors have the investment knowledge and experience

to help clients build diversified portfolios that can thrive in a variety of market environments. Feel more confident about your financial future. Dynamic Funds. Invest with advice. Visit dynamic.ca slash advice to learn more. Since the last time we talked, Rosillo, OKC traded Josh Giddey for Alex Caruso trade that happened a couple of days ago. I've not talked about on the podcast. And the consensus seemed to be, how did OKC get this done

without throwing in anything else? Why didn't they throw in picks? This isn't even a hot take. It feels like a zag and I'm not even sure it feels like a hot zag. I thought Chicago won the trade. I like Giddy.

I do. I like Giddy. He's 21 years old. To me, this was like one of the all-time buying low NBA trades of this century. Year two, age 20, 17, eight and six, 48%, super competitive. competitive they had like nobody they had no center they went 40 and 42 that guy was fucking bringing it went through all the off the court stuff which i think fucked his season up um and by the way not great for him but i think you know it got the year off to a bad start combined with the team was team was better. SGA had the ball a lot.

And he started to get marginalized as the year went along. 21 years old last year. But I went and looked at 21 under guys who averaged 15, 6, and 6 and played 60 plus games. Here's the list. Luka three times, LeBron twice, Magic, LaMelo, Ben Simmons, and Josh Giddey in the history of the league. If you go 20 and under, which he did as a sophomore, Luka twice, Magic, LeBron, LaMelo, Josh Giddey. I just think people forgot that he's actually good. And he was in a weird situation on a team that didn't really need him. And now he's going to a team that's not that good.

That's going to be like, yo, Josh Giddey, we think you're good. Here's the ball. And I think he was an asset. So what'd you think? I agree with you. Oh, we didn't talk about this. No, we didn't. I couldn't believe seeing it play out in real time on Twitter. I was like, wait, so everybody just thinks Josh Giddey sucks.

Now, if you go on recent events, he couldn't stay on the floor in the playoff game because he was the one guy that Dallas decided, we're just not going to defend you at all. And when you start running into those problems where it's somebody you don't even care about, and we've seen this happen plenty of times with teams. It happened with Cleveland against the Knicks. It's just like, you know what?

We actually aren't even going to bother with you at all. And then OKC's kind of stuck with having to get him out of there. By the way, 28 of the 30 teams have a guy like that every year and they have to learn how to make that guy work in their offense. It's like, all right, you're our guy whose teams are going to be okay

leaving you alone, so how are you going to affect it? Yeah, and him off the ball all the time because SJ is so good on the ball. Jalen's going to get a bunch of possessions where he's initiating something. Giddy off the ball is a diminished version of him. But when he played, when he went on that run,

when SGA was out, he was incredible. All right? Now, the off-the-court stuff also destroyed his rep. And I don't know what to make of it. I know they investigated it. They said it was done. You can believe whatever you want. I don't know what to make of it. I know they investigated it. They said it was done. You can believe whatever you want. I don't know what to believe on that one.

But that clearly plays into just the general Q rating of Josh Giddey during this trade. Now, if you think about it. It seems like they told him, like, you're going to be the sixth man next year if you play for us. And he's like, I don't want to be the sixth man. I feel like I could be one of the best three guys on a team which led to the trade i mean sam was pretty honest about that i think because okc had so many picks people were like

how could you not get a pick but it's like so wait if you did the trade with a team that didn't have picks what's okc supposed to do just give some? Right. OK, we'll give you the Charlotte pick we have in 28. You're right. We do have a lot. House won a Giddy for the number two pick, like for real. That was his dream scenario for the second pick in the draft. I just think the stuff Giddy did, and I saw him in person a couple times the first two years of his career, and I just like how he plays.

He's a small forward, but he's also a point guard. It doesn't really seem to matter. He's tall. He rebounds. He just fills the box score. He's fun to play with. The ball moves with him. And I think if you're going to ding him on anything, it's like, yeah, he's not good enough three-point shooter yet. Well, he's 21. Jalen Brown couldn't shoot when he came into the league. That was the reason people thought he was going to go seventh or eighth in the draft because he couldn't hit a jump shot. And people are like, well, if he learns how to shoot, he'll be an asset. Well, now he learned how to shoot.

I just thought for Caruso, who's an expiring contract, who everybody seemed to think they wanted like three, four first round picks. Well, you know, they never got them. They never got two first round picks for them. And then as you're going into the last year deal, it was a really good trade for OKC. Like everybody made the Derek White-Drew Holiday comparison. I totally get it. I thought it was smart.

I think it was the right time to move off of Giddey. But I also thought the Bulls bought really low on them. And they're a bad team to begin with. So it's like, all right, now we have Kobe White. We have Josh Giddey. We have the 11th pick. Probably have to figure out a way to get rid of Levine. DeRozan's probably leaving. Maybe we can trade

Butch for somebody. But at least now they're moving in a direction that makes sense to me. Because when we talked about that two weeks ago. No, I'm saying they're not trying to I don't think they're trying to be a contender now. I think they're looking at let's actually try to rebuild this a little bit. Would you trade Patrick Williams for the number one pick? I would not.

I wouldn't. I think he's good, though. You wouldn't trade the pick, right? No, I would not. Okay. I would not. I like getting more than Twitter did for a night so

so can you go SGA, Dort, Caruso J-Dub and Chet at crunch time for four straight rounds because my answer would be no I need two more guys that give me a little big small flexibility and they have the 12th pick in the draft

they have cap space. And I think what they do this summer is going to determine what their ceiling is as could they make the finals or not. But they need the ability to go big or small. And right now they can really, from what I see, only go smaller lineup with Chet,

which is what we saw last year. And they couldn't get a big rebound when it mattered. Crusoe would be a better fit for them than Giddy, but there's still one more piece for them. I think they need a Jordan Clarkson type. I think they need another on-ball guy. They're two players away. Yeah, I think they need someone else.

And I think that's what they were hoping Gordon Hayward could be a little bit. And it doesn't have to be... Clarkson eventually became better with others. Where Clarkson had some moments in his career where it's like does not play well with others but he could just score and when I watched the Dallas series as great as SGA was and I know that Jalen just was disappointing he was he'll be better next yeah right I'd imagine but it felt like they need they need another guy that can kind of initiate his own offense a little bit more.

And hopefully that's not another rookie. Maybe that could be Jalen Williams. Would you trade the number 12 pick for Brooke Lopez? Hmm. One year left on his deal. Devin Carter's gone. Dalton Connect's gone. Imagine Cody Williams

probably gone by then. Probably somebody good is sitting there at 12. You wouldn't do it? I don't think so. Well, this is the kind of content that you love the most off this giddy Caruso trade.

This is when you're the happiest to be in the pod right now because I'm about to do a deep dive for you. I tried to figure out whether this was the greatest one-for-one white guy trade in the history of the league. Ah, I love this. And I went through all the trades and the answer is no because in 1966,

I liked Bailey Howell for Mel Counts straight up a little bit more, and I think Mel Counts was white. I'm not positive, but I think he was, but that was Baltimore-Boston. The Celtics get Bailey Howell. They make the 1967, he makes the 1967 All-Star team.

They don't win the title. He averages 20 a game, 67, 68, 69. They win two titles with him. Mel Counts lands on the 68 Lakers and starts in the NBA finals. And I think that's the greatest one for one. We'll see if Gideon Crusoe can surpass it. But I went through, it's pretty rare. It's hard to find the one forfor-oners with the white guys.

Dolph Shea's not involved in any? No. A lot of career stability for him. I thought for sure it was going to be like a Paul Westfall for somebody, and I just couldn't find it. So if anyone out there can find a better one for one white guy trade, please, by all means,

let us know. Um, speaking of Chicago, we're going to do a little, what would you do with Chicago? Cause right now you have Kobe white, Josh getting the 11th pick. You have Vucevich 20 and 21.

You have Levine and a terrible contract. You have DeRozan as a free agent. You have Lonzo 21 million exp contract. You have DeRozan as a free agent. You have Lonzo, 21 million expiring. You have all your picks except your 25 top 10 predicted to San Antonio, which I'm sure they're going to keep. And I'm sure part of maybe what they're thinking about next season is,

let's try to keep that top 10 pick in an absolutely loaded draft. What would you do if you're Chicago? What are your next two moves? You just turned Caruso into Josh Giddey. Now what? Dump Levineuso into Josh Giddey. Now what? Dump Levine, maybe to Detroit for a pick. Would you dump Levine into Detroit's cap space

for the fifth pick? I wouldn't do it if I was Detroit. I have a better what would you do with Detroit, which we're about to talk to in a second. I would say if I can dump Vucevic would be my next one. And I just let DeRozan go. And I would hope Levine could rehabilitate his value of playing with Colby, Wayne and Giddy. And we're super fun to watch. We're up and down. We're not that good, but, but we're at least like the ball's moving. And we have two guys who can either get to the rim,

slash and kick, create their own offense, create for Levine. And I would try to think about trading him in February versus now. I don't think he has any value now, do you? Do you think people are like, hey, what are you guys doing with Zach Levine? I don't think teams are looking at him.

The contract numbers, it's too scary. And he said 49 million three years from now. Yeah, with multiple surgeries. I think that's got to be a wait and see. Would you re-sign DeRozan? What would you do? And could you get him to re-sign? I guess would be a better question.

Probably let him go. I'd be open to it. I'd be open to it. Depends on what the number is. I've got to... I just think that he's a great guy to have around and he's still good and if it's not there's a lot of LA buzz with him too by the way

that's another one with the smoke where I can't tell what the smoke is because I was wondering if that was a Paul George destination maybe why would he want to go to Chicago? I don't think he would. But there's like the Rosen Lakers, the Rosen Clippers, and the Rosen coming home. I think they saw him at the Kendrick Lamar show and were like,

that's where it all started. All right. Yeah. He was out there with Russ. Would you do a sign and trade? I don't know. The trade machine doesn't work right now because nothing is legal.

I know. They have to do a thing where you can uncheck and everything is available, basically. Well, I'm on the record. If I'm Chicago, I'm just blowing it up and starting over. Let's do a what would you do for Detroit though?

Because I would actually trade that fifth pick for Brandon Ingram would be the move I'd want to do. That would be my number one draft pick for Pistons moves. And I think if you were, they have a ton of cap

space, right? They could just absorb his contract. And I think if you were, they have a ton of cap space, right? They could just absorb his contract. And I think if you're the Pelicans, you seriously think about that one. Right? Because they basically said we're trading Brandon Ingram. I don't know what the market is for him. I can't imagine

there's 20 teams clamoring for him, but there might be four or five. But if I'm Detroit and I can get a swing man who can score and put him with Cade and Ivy, now I got the foundation of something. Ingram had some moments when he was the main guy where I thought he looked good. I think the issue is when he's one of the main

guys that seems like he has trouble fitting in when there's other really good players he's playing with. Would you do that? Yeah, I would. For both? i'm on the new orleans side of it where i agree with you they seem to be more specific about having to be different and then not wanting to pay ingram where i was like this seems this seems like a share and then then that means Murphy and Herb. I, yeah, well, I mean, that goes without saying. Alvarado. They know who their keepers are, and Ingram is not one of the keepers.

No, but I think they need to figure out the backcourt part of it too, which is why I was kind of like hopeful that there was some kind of Garland matchup where Mitchell just had the team and then Garland. If you were going to ask me of any player that could be traded, I think you were asking me this in the notes for the show today.

Garland to the Spurs would be one of my favorite outcomes of the entire summer. I don't know if there's a sell. I think it's Kelton at this point. Hey, you're actually doing us a favor by taking him. I don't think he has trade value. Oh, I just can't imagine he's just going to suck now for the rest of his career.

No, but I just don't think he'd be the centerpiece if I'm getting Garland back. No, but I'm saying Vassell would be the asset and then do the contracts and the rest of it. It's like, okay, does Keldon, is that a net negative at this point? Probably with the money and coming up the year you're talking about. So anyway, back to Ingram.

Ingram will have a habit of where Brunson in his bad playoff series with the Mavs, it's like, oh, this guy's terrible. Look, Jalen Williams just had a bad series with OKC. I still think he's going to be great. It's not that big of a deal. Like you can do this. Ingram is coming off a series against Lou Dort where it's like, that's horrifying. That doesn't look very good. Tyler Hero, J jalen brown to your exact point with this one it's like what are you guys going to try to do okay jalen brown look the heat we're out of players

so off of those whether it's the giddy price right now the price can be come too low for some of these guys and i think the ingram price with the impending extension which that's the bigger problem right it feels a bit like the nick klaxon thing where as soon as the deal is done you go oh my god i can't believe you have to pay that guy that much money uh i i like ingram there because i think he's gonna get enough buckets to make it a little bit easier for the rest of those guys because if you look at the pistons like as much as i like kade and what ivy could potentially be in some of these other pieces like who's the go-to bucket getter and kade turned his efficiency around which was terrific but he had been trending there for a while we were like what is going on with you where i think there was enough positives in the second half despite the fact they couldn't win

any games i almost like his coach had mailed it in yeah it, it's weird. Or didn't know any of his roster before he took the job. Would you do a package with Ivy or Dern as the focal point and the fifth pick for Cat? Speaking of low prices post-playoff runs. I'd be so

scared to trade Ivy not knowing what he is after we just wasted the first two months of last season just playing him completely wrong, and then he slowly got momentum. I would want to see it for another year. And I don't know about Towns. Give me your Minnesota answer. Do it from the Minnesota side first.

I'm not doing anything if I'm Minnesota. Is this the Jalen Brown Tatum lesson? No, I just want to run back. I think that Denver series really fucked them up and they acted like they won the title and they didn't. And then it was like, oh no, you actually have another round after this. And they just kind of never recovered.

But I still, I wouldn't, I wouldn't mess with that yet. I would want to see it one more year or at least see it November, December, January before I, I feel like the town's trades are going to be there if they, if they are pushing it. He's a top 30 guy. They're going to have a market for him. Um, and the Ivy thing, Ivy and Edwards together feels strange to me. I was thinking, so you mentioned Garland. So if New Orleans turned Ingram into the number five pick, that would then allow them

to take the number five pick with other assets they have, like the Lakers first next year and some of the other stuff they have, put that with McCollum and go to Cleveland and try to get Garland. Or maybe it's just McCollum and the number five for Garland.

Or McCollum, number five, one other pick for Garland. But something like that where, yeah, we'll take Garland off your hands. He doesn't seem that happy. And just try to get that dude and bring him in. Is CJ off the bench then? For Cleveland? No, I'm saying CJ's in the trade. Oh, CJ's in the trade. in as a kick-ass dude. For Cleveland? No, CJ. CJ's in the trade.

Oh, CJ's in the trade. Number five, CJ and a pick for Garland. And then if you're Cleveland, you've kind of settled your Garland Mitchell thing a little bit. And you've gotten the fifth pick. Would you do CJ and Ingram for Garland? Forget salaries? Would you say, hey, we're going to move these two pieces out

for this one piece back? For Garland and one more salary? No, let's forget the salary part of it. I'm just asking like talent in, talent out. Does Ingram and CJ... That feels like too much. Doesn't it? A little? Yeah, it feels like too much. Doesn't it? A little?

Yeah, it feels like too much. So you're saying that's your way of saying the three-way. So basically it's a three-way trade and that wouldn't work. Unless you're saying, hey, look, it feels like a lot of time. CJ's getting older. He's expensive. You don't want to do the Ingram thing already. You don't even care about the fifth pick.

So you can throw that in there. You've had all these picks. You still have picks coming in. And now this means that it's Garland who, when i look at all the guards and their deficiencies and their positives whatever i just feel like when garland comes into a situation there's more buy-in from him you never hear about any bullshit or any problems yeah so i think that's a huge positive and maybe you're just going now, Herb is your two guard, Trey's your small forward.

Those are all their minutes now. Zion's your power forward. And then you're figuring out your center rotation for big and small options. And now it's not like, hey, look at this deep team. You still have Dyson Daniels. Well, do we agree that Garland, now that Giddy is off the board, is Garland is the best by a little bit low guy on the board right now?

Because I think he had the year from hell for a variety of reasons. Mainly he broke his fucking jaw and lost a bunch of weight and then was afraid to get it in the face. I will buy everybody's Garland stock. I'm still all in on that dude. And I want to see him with his own team. And I would try to trade for him if I was another GM. I had one more trade for you, and then we'll take a break.

Is there a Draymond-Knicks situation that you could see? A, do you see the Warriors trading Draymond? And then B, if they did trade him, what would be an actual fun team for him to go to? Where it's like Mitchell Robinson and a contract at number 24 for Draymond. Or maybe it's Bogdanovich and then they can decline his team option before July

and basically just cut Draymond's contract out and get the 24th pick. Am I crazy to think Draymond might actually be on the table as a trade asset or am I overthinking it? Or do you think they'd be afraid to trade him? Afraid to trade him? I don't think they'd be afraid to trade him. I'm sure there's probably some days they want to trade him. Right? The only thing that I would say specific to the Knicks...

I'm afraid to trade him because that's that's Curry's guy now you're trading your franchise guy who he's put his neck out for him a million times and now you're like hey we've traded Draymond the guy that even last year when he disappeared for 12 games your stats went down because he wasn't on the team

anymore and then he came back and you were fine again and now he's not on our team looking at it from just a basketball next part of it i feel worried to have another non-spacer on the floor with whatever center they're they're paying or playing whether it's hartenstein mitchell robinson well then that means you're playing draymond in one of those spots so now with Brunson who just had this insane year are you worried about clogging things up defensively if you have Draymond on the perimeter at some point and then you've got so what is the Draymond team then I think you're right so what is the Draymond team then probably doesn't exist oh so

you're like bearing them imagine if you were on Charlotte Grant Williams and Draymond together hey and aside Grant Williams found a way to still be fucking annoying he's not even on the team he's not even on the team anymore

and for anybody who thinks that's cool in that world that is one of the least cool things you could possibly do you're not on the team anymore and for anybody who thinks that's cool in that world that is one of the least cool things you could possibly do you're not on the team anymore meanwhile nobody saw Marcus for three weeks yeah I mean Marcus is MIA we haven't even heard from him

if someone told me hey Grant Williams walked into the Celtics locker room after they won the title I'd start dying laughing like that's a good joke yeah that was tough let's take one more break I had one more thing to throw you You're like, that's a good joke. Yeah, that was tough. Let's take one more break. I had one more thing to throw you. Hey, you.

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To discover how, visit bhp.com slash better future. All right, I had one last basketball thing for you. I was thinking about Danny Ainge, 2016-17, ending up with Brown and Tatum and the all-time GM draft heaters in back-to-back drafts. And I went through all the drafts trying to figure out,

I mean, there's been some great ones, right? Houston got Sampson and Akeem back-to-back. Orlando got Shaq and Penny. Minnesota got Garnett and Marbury. Miami got Karam Butler doing wage. Chicago got Noah and Rose. Memphis took Triple J and John Bain all in a row. I'm talking about degree of difficulty back-to-back drafts where both picks were either a little risky or a little left field or just like when it worked out, people went, wow, that turned out to be a great pick.

So here are the nominees. Utah, Stockton, and Malone back-to-back. The Stockton pick, especially in 84, Malone fell, but the Stockton pick was like, whoa, who's that guy? Where did he go? Detroit got Dumars and then Sally and Rodman back to back. Seattle got Sean Kemp and Gary Payton back to back. The Payton pick was easy. The Kemp pick was not easy. Toronto got McGrady and Vince back to back, which was, I don't think that McGrady was right around where he was supposed to go. And then Vince was kind of right around where he was supposed to go.

It was. OKC took KD second easy, but then Russ and Harden in 08 and 09, and they also had a Bach in 08, but that the Russ Harden picks, just let's stop here for a second. We're like kind of crazy picks, right?

They seem like they're totally logical now, but like everyone loved Russ. Nobody thought he was going to go fourth. And then they took Harden over Rubio and Curry, which at the time was, I don't know, controversial. The Westbrook pick is, despite, you know, my long history talking about the guy, is a phenomenal pick.

Because you still have Kevin Love there. I had PJ Carlissimo on the show a bunch of different times, and he was there, and he was telling Presti, he's like, I think we should take Brooke Lopez. And Brooke felt like he fell quite a bit. Yeah, he did. And in the beginning of Brooke's career, it was like, oh, that's why he went, Ted.

He doesn't rebound enough. He catches it too far away and all these different things. And once he started shooting threes, he completely changed his game around. So, I mean, he's an awesome story. But Westbrook, I'm telling you, it was not some no-brainer. You weren't quite sure what he was.

But everyone liked him. Everyone liked him. Nobody thought he should go forth. Like literally nobody. Like we're talking about Castle and some of these non-point guard, projected to be point guard guys. Look, I don't know that Westbrook

ever actually became a point guard, first of all. But when you're thinking about taking him forth with other options on the board, it's incredible vision. I mean, Presti, you want to talk heaters, that's back-to-back-to-back MVPs, 07, 08, 09. So that's our number one heater so far. Golden State took Clay in 2011 and then the Barnes-Draymond combo in 12.

That was pretty good. Brown and Tatum for Boston in 16. And then we'll see what happens with Chet, Jalen Williams in the same draft in 22. And then Wallace in 23 of Wallace ends up becoming really good. That's another heater and a half. I think the thing with Brown and Tatum,

I went back and I read all the mocks in 2016 because I couldn't remember what was supposed to happen. So everyone had Simmons and Ingram 1-2, like everybody. That was it. It was its own thing, and then people were like, the draft starts at 3, and then nobody knew what was going to happen. And what's funny is, so I looked at,

Gavone had Chris Dunn third, Chris Heald, Marquise Chris, who was bust. Marquise Chris, yeah. Buddy Heald, Jamal Murray, Dragan Bender, and he had Jalen eighth. Chad Ford had Dunn, Chris, Murray, Bender, Jalen seventh. The Ringer, we did a mock draft that year. It was our first year. Bender third, Chris fourth, Dunn, Heald, Jalen. Bleacher had Dunn, Chris, Murray healed Bender, Jalen eighth.

CBS had Dunn, Bender, Murray healed Chris, Jalen eighth. And the only one who had Jalen third, who wasn't working for the ringer yet, Kevin O'Connor, writing for SB Nation. Jalen Brown third, Chris fourthender fifth Dunn sixth Murray seventh did Ainge get to him maybe he had inside info how about KOC that's good for him man

my dad and I were talking this week about when Jalen got booed on draft night and I you know it was eight years ago and I can barely remember anything more and I was like yeah right what did they because they thought we were taking Murray

and going back and it was like I think people thought the Celts were taking Chrisris dunn because he was a providence guy yeah and it wasn't oh they really wanted murray instead murray was the same thing people are like is this guy good or not and you go back and you read all the mock draft stuff and it's just like phenomenal athlete will definitely have an nba bodyar if he can shoot or dribble was basically the consensus. Jamal Murray was like, ah, possible. He check guy, you know, anyway, Danny takes him third.

And then the Tatum thing, the following year where he has the first pick and trades back and everyone has, I went back and looked at those two. Everyone has faults first, everybody. And then Lonzo second to the Lakers and just everyone assumes that's happening, which it does. And he just knows he's getting Tatum. What a fucking heater that was for Danny.

I feel like he has to get a championship ring. I'm sure he will. He'll send one, right? Yeah, I would be shocked if they did. Look, the brown one I didn't like because there was such a mess at Cal. The team stunk. And I just didn't know what to make of him.

But when I talked to people about it after the fact, it was like, look, his body and his athleticism and these wings that everybody was coveting and considering everything else that was kind of in the mix there. And look, if the Celtics didn't like Chris Dunn and they were just an hour over away from him over an hour away from him, then that should have been like a warning to anybody else.

Like I might've been, if I had Chris Dunn like fifth and I was picking fifth and he was still there and the Celtics didn't take him, I might tell the room, Hey, we're not taking Chris Dunn then. Cause if Danny didn't like him to take him third and took Chandler Brown. Especially to put him with smart where it just would have been like, oh my God, two

pitbulls, two pitbull defensive cards. Holy shit, that's going to be nuts. And they were like, no thanks. Yeah, that's just not what you're hoping to do because Smart still scored more at Oklahoma State. I don't know what the points per game was, but I just felt like Smart was somebody that gave you a little bit more offense, even if it was kind of sporadic throughout his pro stuff.

The Tatum one i loved when i was doing the draft that year i was always shocked that and i have the receipts for this of like why isn't tatum even in the conversation for one this guy's huge yeah a great he'd hurt his foot so he didn't get the full season so it seemed like people cooled on him and the pre-draft conversations i was having with teams is Lonzo was more of a like, hey, how come Lonzo's not going one? And apparently Fultz, everything that he had done in some of the international stuff when he was younger, before he'd had the injury, and then all the other stuff that happened to him, apparently he was just insane.

It could really go. But if you just watch the freshman part of it, I kept coming back to Tatum going like, this is kind of the thing that everybody should want and for Ainge to get another pick. And this is like the bigger Ainge part. All right. So Ainge in 11 takes Marshawn Brooks,

but trade him for Juwan Johnson, right? Yeah. Sollinger and Fab Mello in 12. Yeah. Smart, 14, good pick i like randall better whatever james young 17th that was your guy bill tough rogier really good pick in 15 rj hunter 28th whatever and then he takes jalen brown 16 so there was this this push and i know you remember this there was this push where all of a sudden people thought Ainge sucked.

And I always wonder, wait, after 15 and 16, it's nice if you can get a couple hits there, but you can go through everybody's resume, man, and go, look at Presti, who we just mentioned, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, three MVPs in a row. Takes Mitch McGarry 21st, Takes Terrence Ferguson 21st. Traded to take Poku 21st. Right.

There's misses there. I mean, Jerry West, I remember being in the building at a Celtics draft party doing the broadcast, and Jerry West, Jerry West, trades to Danny, Marcus Banks, and then the pick for Perk so that he can take Troy Bell and Dante Jones. And at first we thought Boston drafted Troy Bell and Dante Jones.

You're like, what are you guys doing? And Jerry West actually preferred. So all the great ones have stretches where you're like, what's going on? What happened with Ainge when people turned on him, it felt like they were getting mad at him for the stuff that wasn't as significant and ignoring when it was the really big stuff he was awesome at the trades the better picks manipulating the rondo thing that year al jefferson delonte west that tony allen that's one class you know grant who also not trading paul pierce. Never wanting to trade Paul Pierce.

The only bad one for Danny was the Justice Winslow. That was really, if you go back and you think, what are the biggest Danny disasters? Miami just saying no to those four first-round picks, which at least one of those would have been Tatum or Brown with all those picks in there. That would have been the bad one for him. I thought the first thing he did was one of the worst trades because he took on,

he wanted it to on out so bad. The Rave contract. And then to get Rave off, they flip it for Theo Ratliff and they give up that pick. That ends up being a top 10 pick, but then they salvage that draft by going back and getting Rondo because they can't believe that he's even still on the board. It almost feels like somebody complaining about their husband.

And you're like, well, what does he do? Well, when he drinks, he smokes, and he yells at officials in high school games. Like, okay, but tell me the rest of it. He's an incredible dad. He's a selfless lover. He makes a lot of money. Selfless lover.

You know, so wait, he's there for you emotionally. He doesn't tear it up every weekend with his buddies. When he goes golfing, he doesn't drink gin and tonics. He drinks light beer. You know what I'm saying? All the important stuff, Ainge is basically aced. And there was this weird three- or four-year window where people started getting on his case

about a stretch of draft picks that usually weren't going to have much return anyway. And I never quite understood that. And I just think people don't like Ainge. I heard a great story about the J.R. Giddens pick where they had won the title and then they had like basically two days until the draft. And it was like their first time in that whole experience.

And they just were not prepared for the draft at all and frantically working out people and felt so badly about how the draft went. They had this whole policy from that point on about how to actually do the draft if we're deep in the playoffs because they'd never had a playoff run with that whole administration. So from 2008, they learned, okay, we have to, even though we're in the playoffs and all this is happening, we have to learn starting in april this happens and we gotta here's an off day for potentially the finals and we'll have workouts that day and just laid it in

but that's that's kind of stuff you don't realize that you're actually doing it um they had a brad stevens austin age those guys were in there at a draft workout the morning after smelling like champagne the two things that i think with Ainge that were nuts were, first of all, he sees the future with wings and switchable D. That really was his philosophy. And that was why they wanted to get Hayward too. We want big wings that can score and create and switch on defense, which now is what everybody wants. And then the other thing, which we've talked about a lot in the past, was like just took two pedigree guys. Jalen was the number four guy in the 2016 class. Tatum was number three in 2017.

And like that was another thing. Danny would always shift to the pedigree. Like he did that with Avery Bradley that year. Avery Bradley was like the number one guy in high school and then he fell to 19. But when you look back, man, those are two of the best back-to-backers ever.

All right, we're still, we don't talk a lot of hockey, but we're going to do so because tomorrow is one of the biggest Stanley Cup Game 7s ever. Edmonton, down 3-0 in the finals. They roar back behind the best sport in the world

right now, Connor McDavid. They tie the series. They have to go to Sunrise, Florida, which is outside of Miami, between Miami and Fort Lauderdale. You're still not sure, huh? I looked at the map. I still don't know what county it's in.

Connor McDavid has a chance to win his first title ever. And if you watch this series, which we both did, the first three games, it just looked like Florida was better, more physical, faster. And then it flips in game four, blowout. And it's like, all right, Edmonton, safe face. Game five, they outplayed Florida. And then game six, outplayed them too.

And it really feels like they can do it. But I guess my question, I'm going to lay out why I think this is the biggest game seven in seven decades, but give us your hockey thoughts. Cause you never get to give us hockey thoughts here. I love it. I look forward to it in a way that's so fun. I'm just such a casual with it. It's fun being a casual. It is great, isn't it? Yeah. Cause you don't really care. And then you're watching probably for the wrong reasons and that's why when i think of like these transcendent players and why every league is like can we have somebody like a lebron or a steph curry or caitlin clark in the wnba right now

baseball has been desperately searching for it you know the nfl doesn't really have to worry about it because it's limited inventory on sundays So when I think about hockey and when I first started watching McDavid going like, wait, what did he like? Let me rewind that. He just went past everyone on the ice. Like, how is that? I can watch McDavid just turn and not even shoot. He could just be in the offensive zone.

Is he the greatest skater of anything? Has anyone ever skated better than him in any facet of life? There's probably some people from Finland in speed skating that we're forgetting, but I don't know. I don't know their names. If you gave a speed skater a hockey stick,

would they... I'm with you. I watch McDavid, and I'm just like, how is he going that fast when everyone in hockey is fast now? It's not like Bobby or in 1969, right? When he's, he's just zooming by these dudes. He's just looks like he came out of a time machine. Now everyone's fast in hockey and McDavid somehow faster than all of the guys that are fast.

At his size, when they get set, when they get set to kind of like go on the break, it's almost like magic Johnson in the eighties yeah and it's not the same level of production but he'll get everybody set up and then everybody kind of like fans out and then he just goes right to the line and he's through despite everybody trying to like load up to him and get ready but when they're set and allowed him to just kind of fly down fly on the ice he gets through gets the puck into the offensive zone and then they're on and trying to figure out what they're going to do but then there'll be other times where if they're on the power play i'll notice he'll just do this little turn and he doesn't even shoot off of it but he gets the

whole defense to kind of collapse one way because the turn is so precise and so quick and i can just i'm serious it's like watching figure skating i can just watch him skate and i'm entertained even without all the other stuff yeah gretzky had this too that that steve nash move where nash would just dribble on the right he would go under the basket but not do anything and bring it back out and then turn back and it would be like oh he's giving up on this play. Oh no, he didn't. And McDavid, like the greatest hockey players who have this speed and the touch. And this was a big Bobby Orr thing back when, when I was growing up was he would do the around the net and everybody was so freaking slow back then he could actually either jam

it in or do whatever. He's certainly the fastest hockey player I can ever remember watching he's certainly one of the best hockey players and casual Bill has ever watched we didn't mention Drysaddle yet who is also like the perfect perfect playoff guy I'm not positive I trust their goalie. Who knows in these game sevens, but I went back.

There's been 18 game sevens in the finals. And Rangers Vancouver would be the obvious pick for the biggest game seven ever because the Rangers, they hadn't won the cup in 54 years. They had that great series, the series before everybody in New York was behind it was Nick's Rangers that whole summer. It was just a great New York, everything. And that one's a big one. Bork winning his first cup in 01 was a big one, but I don't think it was as big as the Rangers one. This is where I landed, Rosillo. 1955. Detroit versus Montreal in the Stanley Cup finals. Gordie Howe on the Red Wings.

And the Red Wings end up winning 3-1. But this was the year of the Richard Riots, which I don't know if you've ever deep dives. This is a big hockey story. When I was growing up, Maurice Richard, Richard, Richard, Richard,

are you talking to, you know, gets in a, gets in a fight or in a Bruins game, how Lake code Bruins defenseman high sticks them. And it's a delayed penalty. And Richard is bleeding and the play ends and he skates up to Laco who thinks they're going to fight. And he just starts like swinging his stick

Juan Marichal style on him and hitting him. And he's hitting him and he's hitting him in the face of Childers and the linesman restrain him. He breaks away. He's still hating him. And then the linesman, Cliff Thompson, comes in and corrals him. And Richard punches the linesman, knocks him out. This is the actual thing that happens in a hockey game. And the commissioner suspends him for the rest of the playoffs. And they riot in Montreal. And they call it the Richard riots. You can look this up on Wikipedia. And he's out for the rest of the playoffs. And they riot in Montreal. And they call it the Richard Riots. You can look this up in Wikipedia.

And he's out for the rest of the playoffs. And Detroit-Montreal ends up going to a game seven anyway and Detroit wins. I don't know how you top that. I was trying to think of what... Imagine that now if... Let's say Giannis just punched Scott Foster in the face and knocked him out as part of a bench corner brawl. I feel like that would be a big deal. I think it would be a big deal.

I think it would lead first take the next morning. Well, what would happen now is it would just mean that he's not capable of winning. He doesn't, whatever thing he had in 21, he doesn't have it anymore. And then it's all getting to him. And who could you trade him for and all this different stuff? It's like, maybe he just lost his shit that night. Maybe he's still awesome. So it's either Rangers Vancouver or the Richard Riots.

But I think Connor McDavid winning his first Stanley Cup and coming back 3-0 in a series would have to rank up there. It would also be amazing for hockey. I mean, you could argue tomorrow's hockey game could be the most watched and discussed hockey game probably in 30 years since that Rangers game. Does that seem fair?

By the way, they were down 3-0. They won it 7, 1942. Maple Leafs. It has happened in the finals. I knew that it had, but then you started making me think. You know what else is interesting though like a when team's up 3-0 or whatever and then here's the stats and and why no one ever comes back it's usually because whoever is up 3-0 is that much better than the

team that is down 3-0 and at no point now granted when floor is rolling they look so fast they look like they're so deep um whether it's their awesome pairing on the defensive side of things and rodriguez who's been incredible at certain moments the beginning of this thing also against boston uh but i always felt like the forwards for edmonton it was just they were stacked with guys their defensive pairing may not be as good, but I didn't even feel like Skinner was that much of a problem. It felt like every time there was a turnover for Edmonton, it led to a great

goal opportunity, even though it felt like Edmonton was right in those games with Florida throughout. Them coming back, I never felt like there was this massive talent deficit where you're like, oh, you guys just can't skate with Florida. Well, remember when the Kings came back from 3-0 against San Jose 10 years ago?

I know you're fixated on that. You were living in Connecticut at the time. That was pretty fun, though. I would stay up for those. Those were good ones. Yeah. We had the season tickets that year for the Kings, so I was actually following that comeback.

The thing is, hockey's more random than basketball. I think basketball, if you're up 3-0, I don't think we'll ever see it unless somebody gets hurt on the team that's up. It's just too hard. You don't have the same number. Never. We'll see it. It'll happen. You think? In a finals?

I mean, look, it almost happened in 23 if Tatum doesn't turn his ankle. I'm talking about a finals. Oh, finals? Oh. Yeah, and it seems inconceivable to me. Hockey seems way more conceivable. And even baseball now, probably like with how weird the pitching is now,

like I can see it happening in baseball in the World Series too. Who's your pick? Edmonton, loyal to the oil. So I had a big Celtics-Panthers parlay and then I watched game five. And I was like, Edmonton just has a look to them.

I'm going to hedge out of this bet in game six. I'm just going to take Edmonton. And they covered. Now I'm playing with house money with the bet, deciding whether to take it. I think Edmonton's going to win. Also, not positive home ice really matters that much in hockey. Do you think it does?

It's fun when you're up, but for the most part, like the Bruins went into Vancouver 2011. I don't know. It's just. Well, it feels like it means something in Edmonton. Going back to Edmonton for game six. That place, I get the chills every time. Yeah.

I want to go to a game there so bad. It would have been probably smart to try to go during this, but a little busy with the basketball stuff. I think it mattered there. And Florida's crowd's awesome.

You know what it matters? So they're going to be into it. But this has nothing to do with home or... It has to do with the dread that every player in Florida has lingering and how much they're going

to let that fuck with them leading up to Monday night. Now, Edmonton certainly has pressure because they're back in this and a chance to win a Stanley Cup, but this is a tough demon to be fighting. And some players are just dumb enough to be like, whatever.

I don't care. I'm not going to let this bother me. There's no way the entire roster, there aren't going to be some guys out there, especially if Edmonton gets on the board first, thinking, are we really going to be the guys that go down in history like this? And Edmonton doesn't have that same concern. Getting the 2004 ALCS highlights will be great tomorrow night. Can't wait for those. I've decided with game seven, the ice, where it is, doesn't matter. It's the first goal seems

to matter. So if you're at home, like Edmonton game six, they get the goal in the first period and the crowd, it's just like there's just this weird confidence that comes from that. And conversely, like the Bruins-Canucks game was the opposite, right? You get that first one and now the crowd's like

the sphincter's just tightened. It's like, oh my god. Down 1-0. It just feels like crowd's like, this sphincter's just tightened. It's like, oh, my God. Down 1-0. It just feels like it's like 5-0 in a game seven. The goals are so hard. I think Edmonton's better. I'll tell you this. I can't say in Florida. I've talked about it in the past.

I don't like their team. I don't like some of the players in them, and I'm all in on Edmonton. I like Reinhardt a lot. I love their head trainer. Head trainer. No, I mean, Gustav's awesome. I don't know if Grabowski's been as good.

I was listening to NHL radio this weekend. That's how into this I've been. I've been reading articles. Who's like the Justin Termini of NHL radio? Is there somebody on there just cranking out takes? I didn't catch a name, but one show, and you'll love this. You'll love this one, Bill. The guy said

he felt like Paulul maurice had outcoached knoblock the first three games but it's been entirely different yeah that maurice has been outcoached the last three now were there any specifics not a one but it was just good to know that they do it in that sport too and hockey seems to have less rhyme or reason with the coaching than any sport. I sat behind that Kings net for four years and I still don't understand what strategies were going on. And I'm literally watching them go. And it just seems like they're skating around.

I know they're not. I just can't personally pick it up. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. I do want to like, what play is that? It just seems like, Hey,

try harder than them and what's your horn rushing the net yeah horse uh i'll say this about uh florida so they're down three nothing hitting the third period but they got a goal at the beginning of third period i feel like if that was three nothing with 10 minutes left all the cheap shot shit would have started because they love doing that but it was three one so they kind minutes left, all the cheap shot shit would have started. Cause they love doing that, but it was three ones. So they kind of had to be disciplined cause they thought maybe they have a chance to get it closer,

but that team, uh, is going to be really fun to watch. All right, let's talk about the Karen retrial. That was the last thing we had on our docket. I urged you a week ago to, to bone up.

I knew you would love it. Um, you promised me you would. Oh, and I did. Your initial thoughts. All of my friends are obsessed with it that are from the area. And I was back in Boston for about a month.

And my favorite part of it was that there was always a guy that actually knew. Like, well, here's what really went down. Oh, the insect story. Yeah, where'd you get that from? It was kind of like when everybody had a relative from the Pentagon during COVID. It's like, hey, gas up and get cash. So it checks so many boxes for the Massachusetts drama. So I don't know what to make of any of it. It seems like the prosecution's case falls apart by the day.

I know you know more of the specifics. So I want you to kind of take the lead on this instead of you just asking me what I think, because I need to play off of you more on this. I've never seen a trial where the prosecution inadvertently is making the defense's case as they're allegedly laying out their case for why Karen Reid did it. But then they're also laying out this entire case for why she didn't do it. There's timelines, there's texts, there's incriminating stuff. There's friends searching, how long does it take for a body to freeze outside or whatever that was at two o'clock. And then they're like, no, no, it was actually at six o'clock when they searched that. And then

somebody comes in and goes, no, no, it was at 29 a.m she searched how long to freeze in the cold um it's just so obvious that there was some sort of fight at the place and they panicked and dumped him outside and didn't realize how bad he was and then tried to pin it on this lady is is my take i feel pretty strongly we go over the events here. So John O'Keefe's a Boston cop and he's dating Karen Reed, right? Yes. And two of the most Massachusetts names

you're going to get to, by the way. Right. And they all end up in an after hours after they're seen on video in a bar together where it doesn't look like there's any issues. O'Keefe goes to the house of another cop for this party yeah and this house is owned by these neighbors um that are from

canton and they have a son who's somehow involved in this as well okay who was is that the one who has the scraped knuckles three weeks later? There's a picture of him. He's got knuckles that look like he punched somebody repeatedly. Yeah, and he said that he fell down in the driveway or something. Right. That happens. They alleged that Karen Reid got into a fight

with O'Keefe, just argument, and the prosecution's tried to develop a pattern that they used to argue a lot and fight, um, which appears to be pretty established based on some of the other testimony. Um, but according to that night,

Reed is accused of hitting O'Keefe with her car, just backing up into him 25 feet away and then leaving him for dead. Well, they said she went 24 miles an hour backwards to ram into him, which is really fast to go backwards. Just in general, 24 miles an hour

is like not slow. And also not being able to get out of the way. Yeah, she was inebriated, but she wasn't inebriated enough to just perfectly go 24 miles an hour backwards and ram into this guy. Okay. So apparently she goes home and then is freaked out when he's not home.

And starts calling him and leaving messages. Right. Right. Which was always my weird serial season one with Adnan Syed, where I always thought it was a big hole in his defense that it's like wait so this girl's missing and she'd been this big part of your life and you'd never once ever reached out to her that was like the one thing I could never get past so so Karen is now wondering where her boyfriend is or if you believe the prosecution she already knows that

she's making these calls to cover her bases later on. They're insinuating that she's leaving all these messages to cover her own tail and check in when she's really putting her own alibi with the messages. Okay. So then they had other paramedics and EMTs show up on the scene where they try to say that she confessed to hitting him. But that's not in the original police report. The video of her on her ring camera, on her app, to the place where she lived with O'Keefe, the footage of her returning, that video's erased.

And then people on the other side of it, their phone is either destroyed or things were deleted, except for the one Google search that there was a huge to your point discrepancy on the time of googling how long does it take for you essentially to die in the cold so isn't there something else weird too where he had dog bites on him he had dog bites on his arm and then the neighbor's dog is now missing it was Yeah. Well, and then there's the other piece of

they can't seem to figure out why his iPhone, where you can track whether you went, where you walked. He definitely went up flights of stairs and went down where they were just saying

he was outside the house and just got hit. There were people that went by. There was a snowplow guy who was like, what was that guy's name? Lucky, I think his name was. And he went by and he's like, yeah, I drove by twice. I didn't see anybody on the side of the road. And then he became a hero to the people who think Karen Reid's innocent.

Then you have that guy, Turtle Boy, who got thrown in jail because he's so convinced Karen Reid's innocent that they felt like he was hindering the investigation. He's been reporting on it every day. So the circus around the trial has become way bigger than the trial. It's one of the biggest Massachusetts trials of all time. And everybody is arguing about what they think happened. And then there's some people who are like, she did it. Well, they're doing a bad job in the she did it part of it. Seems like it.

I can read everything that everybody else is looking at here. And you just wonder, like, imagine. Like, what if... I think the defense is only calling three witnesses tomorrow. And then closing arguments are scheduled for Tuesday. And I imagine that that's because they don't want as much crossing as the defense did with the state's witnesses. Yeah.

Because like even the snowplow guy, it was, it was funny because they were like, well, wait a minute, how good is your vision or something? And they're like, didn't you hit a basketball hoop?

And he was like, yeah, I hit a basketball hoop. They're like, well, if you hit a basketball hoop and he was like yeah i hit a basketball hoop they're like well if you hit a basketball hoop then he's like yeah well i tried to not hit it and i hit it i saw it and i tried to not hit it and i was plowing and i fucking hit a hoop like what so that means that the rest of this doesn't even make any sense like i'm not a good i'm not a good source of information by not noticing this body before um there's just there's just a bunch of little parts of this and then proctor the lead investigator whether it's his text messages about reed and then how all of

these people seem to be connected in some way seems like he's buddies with half the people that might know what actually happened to John O'Keefe. Not to mention the texts and, uh, about pretty, pretty derogatory about her and he's supposed to be the person who is, uh, supposed to be looking at this objectively. Yeah. It's just, it's so over the top for people in the bag trying to create some sort of version of events that weren't the actual events and the police being involved. It seems like a parody of like a Netflix documentary or like a Hulu documentary or something like you would watch this. But now, come on, stop it. Dude, I mean, the text messages that came out on June 10th, and then they had Proctor, Lieutenant Proctor, who's 44. He called Karen Reed a whack job.

The C word referred to her as a babe with no ass. Yeah, the no ass was weird. Making fun of her Fall River accent, which, hey, I mean, who hasn't done that? But then he joked about looking through her phone for nude photos during the investigation now you could argue hey that's still irrelevant to like what but the way the defense has been able to let the defense is just doing an incredible job because it seems like every time the prosecution is pointing something out it's immediately destroyed there's just there's just too many inefficiencies here with this and i always wonder like what it would be like to either be read and be innocent, or are

all of us caught up in all of these things that don't make any sense, and then presuming that she's actually innocent and she isn't. And I thought about the different people that would have to look at her if she's not guilty and look at her in their courtroom and all be so aligned to avoid their own trouble, which is, I guess, the human nature, the instinct to survival, right? To just look at her knowing that she's actually innocent of this whole thing. But trying to prove this, like by the standard of how you would have to prove her to be found guilty of second degree murder, there certainly seems to be a lot of issues for a juror

to go, well, I don't know that we can you know prove this beyond reasonable doubt right and there's weird taillight stuff where her taillight was eventually broken but if you looked at some of the ring videos it wasn't broken immediately and there was three pieces then there were more pieces uh you forgot to mention the you did a great recap by the way i knew you would love this. The defense attorney. We'll just think about our people overseas. Central casting for the defense attorney. It's just like, yeah, we got Casey Affleck. He's going to be the defense attorney.

It's a great part. He's going to steal the movie. Possible best supporting actor nom. It's one of those rare trials where you can just see the movie or the one season Apple TV show or the five episode Netflix documentary. And we don't even know how it's going to play out yet, but it's a lot. I'm sure there's going to be like four different versions of this out there, right?

Yeah, this feels a little bit like Theranos, where there's going to be dueling content projects going on all at the same time. Scarlett Johansson is going to be Karen Reid, but also Blake Lively's going to be playing Karen Reid. Blake Lively should be Karen Reid. I don't want to hear about anybody else. I don't want to hear anyone else. That goes to Blake Lively. Let's not screw around. She doesn't even have to read a script.

Just give her the job. But every time I would get more information and getting caught up in all this thing, I'd go, so wait. The sun was next door, but then they didn't like each other or something. Yeah. There's red flags all over the place. We should have mentioned.

Yeah. Canton is like in that Hockamog League area of you know it's like Foxborough Brockton Canton East and it's like probably a little close to where the Patriots play but just far enough away that it's not like right where the Patriots play but it's

you know also not close to Boston either it's in that neck of the woods for Massachusetts and all the stuff you read in the, like the, first of all, the Reddit page for it is phenomenal and they do a good job of editing it or updating it

and what's happening here and screenshots of different things. But it's just like this Massachusetts trial gone wrong. And for all the like fun, entertaining ways, if you love following shit like this it's the best trial

in a while where anyone I know who's into it is like can you fucking believe this that's why I was pushing you last week I was like you just gotta deep dive it you gotta do it I'm convinced she's innocent conspiracy bill is on Karen Reid's side I don't get this dog thing Conspiracy Bill is on Karen Reed's side.

I don't get this dog thing. The dog bites? Oh, one of the forensics people was like, it's definitely dog bites. Right, definitely. And then they're like, where's the dog? And we're like, oh, gave it away. Right? It would seem like, oh, gave it away. Right?

It would seem like where they want you to go when you read all this stuff is goes to the house. There's some sort of fight in the house. Gets attacked by the dog during the fight. Gets hit. Gets knocked out. They put him outside at some point. And he dies. I guess would be the consensus if you don't think she did it.

The other thing that would have to happen is she is drinking and goes backwards 24 miles an hour and rams into him and somehow gets away with it. Nobody sees it, hears it. That's the other thing. Nobody sees or hears the car hitting this guy outside, right? I'm pretty sure somebody would notice that if you're all hanging out. I don't know.

If there's a party and there's music on. 24 mile an hour just ramming somebody from behind? Sonos, surround sound, the sound bar. So you're going not guilty. Based on everything I have access to this doesn't make any sense amazing stuff the prosecution has done a bad job convincing me I encourage all the listeners to go listen to it

alright that's it for the pod we'll see what happens with Karen Reid we'll see what happens with the Edmonton Oilers we'll see what happens with the draft not sure what our schedule is and your schedule is this week, but we'll figure it out. Thanks to Steve Cerutti and Kyle Crate for producing as well. Priscilla, good to see you.

Brad Stevens on Tuesday. Nice. Congrats. On the wayside Never once said I don't have A few years With him On the wayside On the wayside Never once said

I don't have A few years