The Bill Simmons Podcast - Belichick’s Spending Spree, Embiid’s Lost MVP, and ‘Beartown’ With Mina Kimes and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: March 17, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN’s Mina Kimes to discuss the Patriots’ massive free-agency spending, contracts with “voidable years,” the Bears signing QB Andy Dalton, questions surrounding Deshaun Watson and Russell Wilson, and more (4:00). Then Bill talks with Chris Ryan about Joel Embiid’s injury, NBA MVP contenders (1:05:30), and the HBO Max show ‘Beartown’ [SPOILERS] (1:18:45). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So you can subscribe to The Ringerverse on Spotify, on Apple, wherever you get your podcasts. Sorry I didn't have a podcast on Sunday night. I just ended up taking the weekend off. I was on a crazy podcast streak and just realized it would be nice to have a Saturday to Sunday off. So I did that. I might do that one or two more times before the playoffs.

So I will give you more of a heads up next time. I feel like I'm pretty reliable. In terms of podcast hosts, I'm definitely less Joel Embiid and probably, I don't know, more, more LeBron, more durable. Yeah. Uh, coming up, Mina Kimes and I are going to talk about all the NFL free agency and the return of the New England Patriots. And then Chris Ryan and I are going to talk about how the Joel Embiid injury changed the MVP race. But more importantly, we're going to talk about how the Joel Embiid injury changed the MVP race. But more importantly, we're going to talk about Beartown,

which is, I think, the best show I've seen this year. And if you've seen it, you'll love listening to it. If you haven't seen it, we'll explain at the very top of the segment why we think you should watch it. And then we'll specifically tell you, all right, jump off. Spoilers coming. And that's how we're going to do it. It's all coming up next.

First, Pearl Chip. All right, Mina Kimes is here. I just put on a Patriots face mask. And you're laughing and you're horrified. I'm going to take it off. I don't want to horrify my guests. You should do the whole pod wearing the Pats mask. I remember when you got the Pats mask. That would be a good social video.

I actually have multiple Pats masks and then my wife ends up throwing them in the wash and they shrink. So I just have to like keep eye on them. The Patriots are back, Mina. We're back. Oh my God.

So you and I talked about taping, I think last week. And I was thinking to myself at the time, there's no way we're talking about the Patriots. Like if we're taping on a Tuesday, early in free agency, it's Bill Belichick. There's not going to be a lot of action. I mean, it's Bill Simmons.

So we're going to talk about the Patriots at some point, probably too much for some people's taste. But the Patriots completely justified us having a long conversation because they went buck wild. It was an amazing splurge. It made me so happy. I loved it so much. After two decades of sitting out free agency

with a couple of exceptions, which is fine because we kept winning Super Bowls, but they get a pass rusher. They get two tight ends. They get a really fast wide receiver. They get a nose tackle. They get safety. They get another receiver, a slot born, another slot guy, or not slot guy, but a possession guy. Unbelievable. First of all, did you like the moves as the totality?

Oh, that's a good way to put it because individually, I did like some of them. As a totality, I think it's telling that you said, you pointed out that the Patriots don't usually do this and then immediately said afterwards they were really successful. And you know, Bill,

that most teams who do this do not have success who splurge in free agency. It usually doesn't work out. I would say the Patriots are a unique situation because of not only

just the fact that they had a ton of money, but so few teams did that the market is really distorted right now. So anyways, long story short, no, I don't think this is a good way to build your team. I think this is a reaction not just to the lack of success last year, but the fact that the Patriots have been so bad at drafting, developing and signing offensive skill players. But I do like some of these players. The offense is going to be infinity times more fun to watch.

And after the drudgery that was last season as a Patriots fan, you should at least be excited about that. Yeah, it's weird. It's an indictment of Belichick admitting that he knew the last few drafts were terrible. We took two tight ends in the third round last year, and then we spent $37 million on Henry and $50 million on Johnny Smith.

But at the same time, I really like those guys. I like when McDaniels and Belichick have two good tight ends that can do stuff. We've had a lot of success with that over the years. I'm going to just come clean. I thought Nelson Aguilar was really good last year. Every time I watched the Raiders game, he was wide open, just beating dudes

left and right. And if anything, whatever his stats, he was like 18 yards of catch last year. And it felt like they missed him a bunch of times betting against the Raiders a couple of times last year. I was terrified of him. It felt like he was like freaking Tyreek Hill. So I was excited they got him. It's awesome. Yeah. I'm sorry. Did I totally harsh your buzz about the Patriots?

Because you were wearing the mask. You were so happy. I'm just excited we're relevant again. People are talking. No, I like the two tight ends. I really liked Aguilar. And Judon. So Mallory tried to neg

the Judon thing for me. And I don't know how much of it was spiteful. She's a huge Ravens fan. She did this whole thing about, look, when we let somebody go, it's usually for a reason. Just look at the track record. And she just kind of makes you feel shitty about it.

But I just think, I think she was hurt. I think she was hurt. She was trying to hurt me. Well, let me push back, Mal. It's basically a two-year deal. And a lot of these deals, as much as I've accused the Pats of being new money spendthrifts, most of these deals they can get out of pretty cleanly after a couple of seasons, including the Judon deal.

It's basically a two-year deal. I think the criticism with him, and this is sort of related to how he was used with Baltimore, is, yeah, he can get pressure when it's manufactured, when they blitz. But is he a true one-on-one killer pass rusher? No, but that's not

what New England does. So I think Bill Belichick will find ways to deploy him in multiple ways. He can drop into coverage. He's versatile. It makes sense for New England. It's funny.

So that was another high draft pick. They took Winovich to be their pass rusher. And then they have to spend on free agency to kind of replace that too. They took Nikhil Harry as kind of their playmaking receiver in the first round. They have to go get Aguilar. But whatever.

The thing with Belichick, he's done this his whole career. And I think it's one of the reasons he's been successful. The sunk cost is a sunk cost for him. So he doesn't care if the second round guy that they picked as a cornerback can't cover anybody. He's like, all right, well, we fucked that

one up. Move on. And he figures he can make it up with some undrafted free agent or whatever. But you think like with Hightower coming back too, I actually do think they have a lot of good players now because I love Damien Harris. I make no secret. I think he's a huge sleeper.

I actually think they were really careful with him down the stretch, trying not to put too many miles on him. Their secondary is really good. And I don't know. I just feel like if they can figure out the quarterback thing, which 15 teams are saying right now, it's two options for me. I think the Cam... Cam's a

smokescreen for me. Let's talk it through. I don't believe it. I don't believe the Cam thing. And if you look at that contract, it is a smoke and bears contract that... It's not even high-end backup money. Yeah, it's nothing. So, James G in one corner,

I still feel like is very possible. Or they're picking 15th. Could they nudge their way up? And I think it's one of those two options. I don't think Cam is the starting quarterback of this team, especially with the team they built. This is, maybe Cam is like a worst case scenario stopgap, but I had a friend of mine, my buddy Hench we should have we should have signed a short stop in free agency to to uh pick up cam's one hoppers

and i was like that's that's accurate cam bounced half of his passes last year we can't watch that again what a grandpa burn by the way i know i know I know. I love that. Yeah, look, so with Cam, the question is, pre-COVID Cam, how much of that was real? You're in the system, bad skill players, yada, yada. I think that

when you look at the available options, now that Andy Dalton is off the board, it's really, I know. And Fitz, Tyrod Taylor. That would have been worse, right? Than paying Cam $5 million.

Cause now the draft is still a dream that's available to you. Although I do think Washington should be in the mix for quarterback, but I, and you're picking ahead of them too. I think this team with the guys coming back on defense, you mentioned Hightower, just Chung as well with the pieces that they've retained with another year out of Josh Uche, who I really like.

They started using him a little bit intermittently. Kyle Duger. And then... Both of those guys were good, FYI. They will be good, I think, yeah. Kyle's like on the pro shop kind of looking at their jerseys, but doesn't have the balls to buy it yet.

But we like them. Kyle went to a college I had not heard of. And I'm sorry, I'm going to get hate mail from whatever school it was. I had literally not heard of it before. And he was like 24. Yeah, but he was good. He was he was doing stuff. Classic Belichickian pick there.

But the point is the roster. You're right. Like they can compete with a better quarterback. I think 15 is a really tough spot in the draft. So, you know, because like Mel's, look, Hyper's, Mach's, they've got them going now, one, two, three, four.

I think Atlanta doing what they did today, you and I were talking about this a little bit earlier, extending Matt Ryan is good news for the teams that won quarterbacks because basically what they did was push more of Matt Ryan's money out into the future, meaning it's less likely they're going to move on from him. But you're competing with Carolina, who's hot and heavy for a quarterback at eight. I mentioned Washington, though.

They're behind you. I know. Are you looking at the draft right now? There's a lot of teams that should be thinking about quarterbacks are in the mix. Chicago is behind you. So that's good news. Can we put the lions in a,

we're looking for the quarterback category or do they have to pretend they let go for a year? There's the weirdest team in the NFL right now, because no one can tell like where they are in the rebuilding process and whether or not they think they can win games like they can't and they should be rebuilding, but then they went out and got golf. I think that they believe they're rebuilding, but I do wonder if they would even compete with you guys for with anyone for a quarterback. I'm not so sure.

They remind me of the Hawks in the NBA where they're the team that think that thinks they're really smart. Like we're really smart. Like, we're really smart. We're doing stuff. People think golf is done. We're going to zag the other way. It's actually maybe golf is good. It's like, all right, good.

So, yeah, Chicago's picking 12th. Oh, that's trouble. That's another one that scares me. Dallas and the Giants at 10 or 11 aren't taking them. Denver, who knows, with the Drew Locke thing. But yeah, I'm always dubious when, like Schefter had a thing today, I guess he said on,

maybe it was on your show, that he thought he was like, four of the top seven picks will be quarterbacks. I think he did say that. Mark it down. One of my friends sent it to me, basically like, we're fucked. We're four of the seven.

We have no chance now. Let me throw this out. Okay. Atlanta. Trade your pick and throw in Stephon Gilmore. Would you do it? That would hurt my feelings.

Would you take Jake? It's going to be painful. It's going to, no. Oh, you're saying J.C. Jackson. J.C. Jackson and some picks maybe? J.C. Jackson,

he doesn't have a long-term contract, right? Yeah, he's cheap. You got to sign him after like a year. You're going to have to, yes. No. It's got to be Gilmore. You're going to have to eat it. You got a good secondary.

You got so much depth there. I love Gilmore. Here's what I've heard from my tentacles in the Patriots organization. Belichick loves Gilmore. And I think even when they thought about trading him last year and he went and talked to him and said, we might trade you. I think the reason they almost traded him last year was because he knew the team was going to be bad. Belichick.

And it was like, we have this incredible chef in this restaurant that the stove doesn't work and the electric bill is going to get shut down. And this is a waste of a chef. Maybe I'll try to get value for him. The other thing that's interesting, they really do love Cam. Now, whether they love Cam as an actual football player, that's a whole other thing. But people love that guy. The coaches loved him. His teammates loved him. And I think there's a feeling like they have kind of bought this all.

Well, maybe it was COVID. Maybe, remember how he played before he got COVID? Maybe that's what it was. What if he had a full year at the playbook? And people, I think just because they like him so much have talked themselves into it

I saw a guy who couldn't complete a pass to guys who were 10 yards in front of him wide open I don't know what to think not great

it was tough for me too because I think because Belichick was wearing not just one but two masks so much of the season I couldn't read

how angry he was whenever they would cut to him on the sidelines when Cam would fuck up. So I'm like, I think he's really mad right now, but you can't tell for sure. You know, he already has angry eyes.

Yeah, he's possibly furious. I do feel like he loves Cam, but I also feel like everything Bill Belichick's done over the last two days has just been completely rebuking last season. Like, it's very revealing

of how disgusted he was. It's insane that the Patriots finished 7-9. I know. In my memory, it doesn't feel like a 7-9 team. It feels significantly worse. And I think it's because when they did lose, it was so crushing and bad. Well, do you think he had more time to prepare for everything?

Because for the first time in a long time, he wasn't in the playoffs. They actually had like, you know, three to five extra weeks a year where he's just in the mode and all the shitty teams get this huge advantage because they basically get to start planning in December. I mean, I think

that has to have helped, right? I think he's been preparing for a while. Like during the regular season, he was like, yeah, we suck. It's hard to be good when you have no money. And like, he was very... He never does that either. I'd never heard of any excuses like that, right? He's like, yeah, we kind of knew we were screwed.

It's correct. Like, and I think teams are well served by being honest with themselves about their timelines to go back to detroit and i was saying i don't really know if they know what their timeline is new england i think knew that they sucked last year they paid a quarterback nothing they didn't do any crazy deals they were like we suck we've got all this tom brady dead money rip the band-aid and then we're going to go into 2021 with a ton of money. What they didn't know

was that they would have a ton more money than everyone else. And I think that's what's so crazy or what makes it feel so crazy is not just that New England spent all this money, but it's been relative to other teams in the NFL because half the NFL is broke. Right.

And that's why you mentioned earlier the deals are not nearly as long as have we seen it. When teams splurge in years past, it's been these deals that you're like, oh man, you just paid a left guard $75 million with $42 guaranteed. What are you doing? That's crazy. I don't feel like any of these deals were like that. They were all short-term, a little bit malleable. You kind of move out of them. And just in general, I want to talk, let's take a break

because I want to talk about just the cap stuff because I'm fascinated by that piece. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate

and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, coming back. We're talking about the Pats and how they did the short-term stuff, mainly because it seems like all these teams feel like the cap's going to jump way up, right? And players too, notably. Yeah, and the players. So everybody kind of knows three, four years from now, there's just going to be way more money. So we've seen a lot of chicanery.

We've seen these shorter deals with higher guarantees. And we've seen this new trend, which Danny Heifetz wrote about on The Ringer this week about these voidable contracts. Where Tom Brady's like, ah, I'm making 19 million a year until 2027, but the last six years are voidable. And then somehow there's this weird cap gymnastics where it's good for your team. How do you, you're on NFL live. How do you even discuss these contracts anymore? When these

numbers are like, I'm making like taste of hell, I'm making $140 million, but I'm not, I'm making like taste of hell. I'm making $140 million, but I'm not, I'm making 16. We're, I'm very proud of our show for not using the $140 million number once, because it's just fake. And we can, we can take the additional step of explaining to people why it's fake. It's a lot easier in print to explain, but in audio or television,

it's just confusing. So I just try to figure out what's the cap hit. And then how long are they going to be stuck paying this guy? And I think if I can try to convey that in layman's terms, it's helpful, but I can get confused sometimes. Like I think, so a big subject right now has been, how are the bucks going to fit all of these guys under the contract? And so far they seem to have done so they're, they are running it back. Um, I didn't think they were going to be able to, cause I thought Shaq Barrett and Levante David weren't going to be able to take discounts. When the Levante David deal broke, I was surprised on air because it was two years,

$25 million. Then afterwards, we learn, oh, there's void years. They taxed on like three void years. So it's only 3.5 this year. So I look kind of dumb on air for, I was like, wow, I don't know. I like, I was just very perplexed by it. Um, and I think you got to now wait for all the details to come out because the initial numbers tend to be meaning more meaningless than even they've been in the past. You're like Levante. David is paying the Buccaneers to play for them. That's how he's, he's making minus $10 million dollars a year this is this new salary cap thing um yeah i don't i don't get it it's never been more confusing the only thing that really seems to matter and i don't know why they don't report is just the guaranteed number is

what actually matters so it's like all right this deal it's over four years it's 32 guaranteed and it's almost like we should just say the cap hit for this year and then the meta guaranteed. And that's how we should do it. But we'll never do that. Um, the saints speaking of salary cap, hell, they've moved on from drew breeze. They have ushered in the Jameis Taysom era,

at least for one year. And yet I still feel like this is a deshaun watson landing spot possibly i texted that to you and you and you just texted me back emojis i'd never seen before oh my gosh now i want to see what emojis they were i'm sure it was the disbelieving no i know what it was it was the monocle spec skeptical yeah you know whatever that one i don't know that one. It's like skeptical, yeah. So I find it hard to believe that Houston, which at this point is purportedly not taking calls,

by the way, would be motivated to do a deal with New Orleans just because I don't think New Orleans has the ammunition. And Carolina seems to be, I think they thought they were out, but now clearly they're not. They won in hard.

They really won in. And that one, I mean, so they got the eighth pick, right? There was talk of throwing in McCaffrey, which is okay. But again, if I'm Houston, I'm only thinking top two, three. Miami and New York are the

main teams. That makes sense to me. Yeah, I don't, New York are the main teams. Or Herbert. That makes sense to me. Yeah, I don't think the Chargers would do it. You love Herbert, right? He's your guy. I do.

You're lukewarm on him. No, I'm not. I like him. I don't feel like you're on the bandwagon. I don't know. We're not letting you on. Okay.

All right. I'm very high on Herbert. Actually, I think last time we did QB Tears and I was making sounds. I got some shit for being too excited for Herbert, if I recall correctly. But anyways. Well, wait, explain to me this. Houston won't take calls on Watson. Yeah.

All right. So somebody calls you and is like, I want to buy your house. You're like, I'm hanging up. I'm not taking calls. And then that person calls again like, hey, man, I really want to buy your house. No, I won't hear it. What is the point of not taking calls? Isn't your job to run a franchise? Like, is Watson going to be mad that you took a call? I think the only reason you don't take calls, and I agree with you, by the way, is so that it's not reported that you took a call,

so that it's not leaked that Houston's, okay, Houston's taking calls because then shows like mine will do 45 minutes of content about the call, which is a great show, and everyone should check it out at 4 p.m. Eastern. Just tell Watson. Just tell him, like, Atlanta called us.

Yeah, yes. I think the only reason the other thing i'll say is if it's a team that you know can't put together a package like so news broke today that chicago was trying to call seattle about the you know long-rumored russell wilson trade which we can talk through oh we're talking about it i'm emotionally prepared for it now this new andy dalton news to chicago has given it's like steel steeled me. So I'm now feeling, I'm in a much better place. But yeah, so like, if you're Seattle, for example, I would not take a call from Chicago because there's nothing Chicago could have done that would have made it appealing to me. Whereas if it was New York, again, New York or Miami, you got to take the call. With Houston, it's to me. The only reason

trade Watson is if you actually think he's going to hold out, and I think we're kind of getting to that point with him. I don't think that's where they were with Wilson, but. It's it's it's tricky because. You're a crappy team and it's not tricky, I mean, it's it, you also have to recognize how bad you are and how this is an opportunity to hit reset. Like they went four and 12 with Watson, right? So at some point you got to like, look at the roster you've had,

you got and think, well, maybe we can start over, get rid of this guy who hates us, get a good return now long before the draft. And I don't know, I would do it if I were them. I don't understand. I think it's negligent to not accept calls on your players.

I really do. I think that's bonkers. Your whole job is to try to improve your roster at all times. And if you just can't be upfront with the player who obviously hates your guts and can't wait to get out of there and just be like, okay, here's who we talked to today. We talked to Miami, Carolina. Just in case it leaks, nothing's close.

They made us offers. We're not going to do them. There's ways to do this that aren't like you're in the third grade, but this is what happens when your team's run by the team chaplain. It's like Jack can't take a call. He's in mass. He might call you later. He might not.

I don't know. It's going to be a long sermon today. I mean. Maybe you call the church. I mean, I just think they're just by far the most effed up franchise that we have, which is really saying something because this is a league that has Cleveland

and Cincinnati and Jacksonville and all these teams that are perennially screwing up. And now it's clearly Houston is the alpha dog. Speaking of alpha dogs for being screwed up, you mentioned this to me before we came on, the Bears signed Dalton and you theorized that

the Bears fans might be in the toughest place. Actually, Kyle, cue the video. This feels like a social breakout to me. Mina. No. Is the Bears fan base in the toughest place of any fan base?

Like if you have a bunch of friends from college and you're like, hey, what's going on? Is Nick going to be there? He's like, yeah. Nick's in a bad spot. We don't know if he's coming. He's afraid about the reunion. He's afraid he might fall off the wagon. We don't know if he's coming He's afraid about the reunion

He's afraid he might fall off the wagon We don't know if he's coming He's trying to get his life back together That's how I feel like the Bears fans are with their team This quarterback situation Has been so traumatic for so long With no point of resolution And now they're like, hey cool

We have an idea Here's Andy Dalton It's a dark place I think and now they're like, hey, cool, we have an idea. Here's Andy Dalton. It's a dark place, I think, and I say use the word dark because in fandom, it's when you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel specifically. Because there's, like, listen, there are many NFL fan bases

that have been similarly down bad, right? Cleveland, Jacksonville, Cincinnati, but you could argue we're tanking. We've got this college quarterback. Our cap eventually is going to be cleared. I think with Chicago, it's so sad right now because I can't see that future. I mean, I guess they'll move on from the people running the place, but I don't see the path to improvement. And you're wasting the prime of this good defense that bounced back a bit last year. I mean, the only thing you can look forward to,

and I say this as a Mariners fan, is ironic detachment, where nothing can hurt you anymore because you're just so beaten down and so accustomed to not having hope. And we're talking about a team that went to the playoffs last year. Like, that happened last year, right?

And boy, though, it's just been so mismanaged and they're so unlucky. I hope they're not mad at me after saying this, because they're pretty active online, but I think that is the worst, the worst place to be in right now as a fan. Can you think of a worst team? Who's the closest?

I mean, so I'm just trying to think anytime I did this in a column, I don't know if you know this, but I used to be a writer, Mina. Back in the day when I would do like most tortured fan bases and stuff like that, it was always hilarious to me when fans from certain teams were infuriated that

I didn't think they were tortured enough compared to somebody else. We have it worse. Okay. Right. Like, how dare you not? So the ones that always get mad over everybody else are the Lions fans. The Lions fans feel like, oh, we always hear about the Bills and the four Super Bowls and the Browns haven't won since 64 and the Vikings always choke. And meanwhile, we just suck every year. We don't even have the four Super Bowls we lost. We don't make the Super Bowl. Like we just, every year we stink. We wasted Sanders and we went 0-16 and then everybody always forgets to include us, which is even worse than any of this other stuff.

So I would say the Lions would be the default. But we're not talking like historically. We're talking like right now. I'm talking about right now. Do you think the Lions, that's close. Because if I had to pick four teams to throw in there with Chicago, I would pick Detroit. Would you rather be a Bears fan or a Lions. Would you, would you rather be a Bears

fan or a Lions fan right now? I'd rather be a Bears fan. I think, I think if you're drafting, who would I not want to be a fan of? The Lions have to be first. They're never good. There's never any hope that they're going to be good. They have no fun memories other than Barry Sanders, who basically won like two playoff games. And it's like, oh, the Sanders era. Remember that? Remember Eric Kramer? Yeah. I'd say the only, the case for the Lions now is they've got a

new staff, new front office, new coach who likes The case is like we brought in new people. It doesn't mean anything. It's just like we have some new people. That's true. We have some new coaches. The Bears also arguably have better young talent. Like some people you can be excited about.

Jalen Johnson, Roquan Smith bounced back last year. They've been way more relevant while also kicking their fans in the nuts over and over again. And they actually remind me of, are you married to a Mets fan? No. No, no. But fantasy to a Mets fan? No, no, no. Just,

but fantasy is your Mets fan in your life. Yes. And I was texting him yesterday about the Sam Darnold. Did you see there at the New York daily news did article about how Seattle and Sam Darnold, because USC or P carols liked him. And yeah, I wasn't buying that, but the jets fan But the Jets fans

or the Mets fans remind me of the Bears fans where they peaked in the mid 80s with this incredible team. And then it was like drifting off the fumes of that for years and years.

But now you have people like Fantasy who's like you know, 39 or however old Fantasy is and has no memory of the Mets being of having a fun Mets moment. Right.

They won the world series. He was like four. Bears fandom. So brutal too, because it's the quarterback position is every year. The reason why they've been so bad and like football's not fun to watch when you don't have a good quarterback, as you learned last year, like that is it. You can have a kick ass defense. And I, I love defense.

And I, I truly believe we talk too much about quarterbacks and football media, but there's a reason we do. It's really not fun to watch bad quarterbacking. And it's a shame because the bears, like I love their culture. I love the stadium. I love the look of it.

Like it should be a great football town. And if they actually had a fun quarterback, it would be really exciting for them. Well, it also, at some point it's just contempt great football town. And if they actually had a fun quarterback, it would be really exciting for them. Well, it also, at some point it's just contempt for your fans. When your fans are just like, Hey,

you know, it'd be cool if we had a fun quarterback. And then they finally have a chance to take one. And now they get to get haunted by that draft, but then they just don't get it. Like Andy Dalton can't be the move. And I'm sure he's a nice guy. That just can't be your move. Like understand your fan's a nice guy. That just can't be your move.

Like, understand your fan base. This is going to be mocked the whole year. They're just going to be pissed off about him the whole time. You're almost better off, like, you know, not doing anything or just going into the draft. Or even like Tyrod Taylor, you could be like, hey, man, he was pretty good. Then he got stabbed by his team doctor

and didn't play last year. But now he's fine. His lung is uncollapsed. There's like a glimmer of hope. Even if you trade from Mariota, you could be like, hey, he was good that one game this year when he came in relief for Derek Carr. And people get excited about that. But with Andy Dalton, like, what are you going to get excited about?

Other than he'll look good in the jerseys with the pop of orange. But like, that's literally the only thing I can think of with Andy Dalton. Unless they're picking somebody. Yes. One more thing on quarterbacks. So Breeze retires. Everybody, everybody does the whole Breeze tour.

Breeze to me is a classic. If, if, if a couple moments go differently, I think his whole career is remembered, remembered completely differently.

I still feel like the Vikings not beating them in that game was almost impossible. And especially if you go on YouTube and you watch the fourth quarter, you kind of can't believe they don't win it. And then we go into the Colts game where that's also a really weird game.

The onside kick coming at halftime, which if it doesn't work, I think they lose. Manning just completely choking on that pick. And then Breeze wins. And then he's one of the greats, but I just never felt like he was on the Brady, Manning, Rodgers, now Mahomes. I just never felt like he was at that level. I always felt like he was a notch below. I think playing in the Superdome with Sean Payton, you always had these offenses geared toward,

you know, maximizing your talents. I just never felt like he was on that top level. What did you feel? Yeah, I would put him below the Brady-Manning-Montana tier, but like firmly in that next year of all time greats. I think that's fair. I think I would put them one spot lower than that. Really?

Yeah. I feel like Marino and I look, I know people are going to go on pro football reference and be like, Oh, look at this, these stats. And it's like, when you're a quarterback in the eighties or nineties,

people are diving at your knees. You're getting the shit kicked out of you. And it's a completely different sport. Troy Aikman was good for eight years and had to retire. Yeah, you know, I know he had Peyton, but, which is a point, you know, against him. But in his point in his favor,

one, not only has he played with some real shit defenses, but he was thrown to some dogs. Drew Brees, talking about Drew Brees over the years. So, yeah, it's not like he had, you know, Jerry Rice, you know, his entire, I mean, I would say that.

And then your point at the beginning about how there's like all these little moments in history, even freaking more recently, the non-call, right? Against the Rams, the non-PI call. There are so many moments like that you can point to in his career. I think more than perhaps any of the other great quarterbacks, non-Cleveland or whatever division, where if it had gone a different way, we would be probably looking at him differently, which is why generally I hate when people use Super Bowls as a metric for not just greatness, because I understand you win Super Bowls and it's accomplishment and whatever, and it's why

Tom Brady will never be reached, but when people say things like, well, you can't pay your quarterback 15% of the salary and they haven't won a Super Bowl in the modern era, well, if Drew Brees doesn't get those stupid calls or if an onside kick doesn't go X way,

he isn't a Super Bowl, or Matt Ryan does win the Super Bowl and stuff. I hate that. And I think Drew Brees' kind of exhibit A of why Super Bowls, even though he does have one, tend to be overrated when we measure quarterbacks' careers. I also think I totally agree with you because

football is such a dumb sport. You basically want to be the last seven or eight and then it becomes down to one dumb moment here one dumb moment there. The thing with Breeze that I just feel like

has to go on his legacy a little bit is he had a lot of dumb playoff losses. He just did. Like the Marshawn Lynch that playoff loss

when everybody was so upset that the Seahawks were in the playoffs and oh my God we have to change the rules and they had a couple where they Roethlisberger is the same way Roethlisberger just has was so upset that the Seahawks were in the playoffs and oh my God, we have to change the rules. And they had a couple where they, Roethlisberger is the same way.

Roethlisberger just has bad playoff losses. And when we talk about him historically, people are going to default to the two Superbowls. But to me, like right there with the two Superbowls is how many times they were big favorites and took a dump in a big game. Like they did against Cleveland. He has like eight of those that matters. That's the knock on Peyton just as much as 100% that some, and took a dump in a big game like they did against Cleveland. He has like eight of those. That matters.

That's the knock on Peyton just as much as... 100%. For some reason, he kind of doesn't get brought up a lot with him. But yeah. No, and he's one where I still... That's my top three worst Patriots loss. The 06 Colts AFC title game. It's just that one. If they had patched that one together with no receiving core.

What is your number one? Well, the number, the two. Oh, the Giants ones. Yeah. The two Giants ones. Sorry. Yeah. The Eagles one weirdly isn't in my top three.

I can't think of a Seahawks one, so we should just keep going. Nothing comes to mind. Well, but that's a good example of the moments thing, right? If you win the Malcolm Butler game, you win two in a row and Wilson's like, two in a row, last guy to win two in a row. It becomes like first sentence of his football obituary. 100%. Everyone's like, surefire

Hall of Famer. Of course you can make a quarterback win. It's been enough foreplay. It's time to talk about Russell Wilson. We're going to take a break though. Alright, Russell Wilson. We're going to take a break though. All right. Russell Wilson. Who knows? Who knows what's going on here?

It's super weird. It almost feels like he and Pete Carroll might need to just have therapy. Come to your next podcast series with them. You can bring them together. It could be Flying Coach Season 2, but there's this thing where founders of a company can do

founders therapy. I wonder if there should be QB coach therapy. If there's any QB and coach you'd think would be into that kind of thing, it'd be the two of them. Totally. Obviously, this is germinating from our guy, Russ. I don't know if it's like a passive aggressive power

play if he really wants to leave but I talked about this in a pod a couple weeks ago the fact that Vegas was on his list was so fascinating to me because that meant there was real thought in the list it's not just like oh it'd be fun to play with John Gruden it's like I will go to Vegas

my wife will play in one of those residencies. There's no state tax. I'll get to refashion an offense around the stuff I do. And that made me think like, oh man, maybe he really does want to leave. So what do you think? Well, I will say this has

been germinating for a while. It's not just this off season. The list of teams is kind of what really gave it new life obviously well first we gave a new life was obviously him going on dan patrick's show and saying hey i'd like to get sacked less but when the list of teams came out i think it was adam schefter or something that had the four which was chicago dallas vegas and new orleans yeah um then it not only became real, because if the list comes out,

you know the agents and him are putting it out, but also became confusing because we had to look at this list and try to identify what are the themes here, right? Because, okay, sure, Vegas, as you mentioned, they have Gruden, I guess, if you're a quarterback who wants to play for John Gruden. And also, it's the entertainment.

It's a place. But Chicago, also, with its terrible offense and no entertainment. And then New Orleans makes sense because it's an actual good football team, but they can't afford him. And then, well, Dallas, obviously, they've signed Dak Prescott. And then, well, Dallas, obviously they signed Dak

Prescott. But again, there's issues there. It's not a good team. I guess it just as like a text, it was hard to unpack it because like this, we spent as much time coming up with destinations for Russell Wilson or analyzing potential trade as we have trying to understand what does he want? Other than not being sacked as much, we can't really figure out, we meaning outside world, what he wants. Like maybe it's the Vegas thing,

but I don't know. I found it really perplexing. And that's made it hard to analyze. The teams had nothing in common with each other. I agree with you. I thought it was actually a nice kind of snapshot of what it's been like to follow him the last 10 years.

He's a guy like I loved when he came on my podcast. He's a really gregarious guy, but he's also like one of those guys where you feel like he's not saying everything he wants to say. That's for sure. I don't know what his end game is just in general. And the more we look at this, we go, oh, this dude just wants to air it out. He just, he basically wants what Mahomes has. He's like, give me my Kansas city situation. Give me fast

receivers. Give me a good offensive line. Give me creativity. And I'll just outscore everybody else enough with this defense crap. Which is great, but you put Chicago on your list. That's the thing. I'm just so confused. Like if you had named all the good offensive teams or teams with even capital that could go out and upgrade, which Chicago can't.

Chicago's number one right receiver does not want to play there. Allen Robinson. Like it just kind of, it just befuddled me. He has good wide receivers. I think you can argue, again, offensive line issue has been an issue his entire tenure in Seattle. It's an issue that I wish Seattle would address. The only thing they traded for Dwayne Brown, which is good. But as these offensive linemen are flying off the free agency right now, that's somewhere I would target if I was Seattle. But there's this kind of narrative out there, oh, Seattle, they're really conservative,

and Russell Wilson's angry about that. They passed a ton last year. You could argue that maybe the play calling wasn't perfect, especially the second half of the season. But the notion that they didn't let him cook, so to speak, is just inaccurate. It's not why they struggled the second half of the year. It's because he went on your podcast. You can literally chart it, Bill. Like the statistically take some responsibility for before and after Bill Simmons podcast. See, you joke. People really think this.

No, no. No, people have pointed to this as like it was the moment when everything turned in his season when he came on. And here are the before. People have mailed me before after stats and all kinds of stuff. And it is pretty ugly. I I just didn't think he played well in the second half of the year. And I didn't really know what the reason was, but he seemed out of sorts. He would do what? Oh, it's complicated. Like, I think some people think Pete Carroll smashed run and they didn't pass it as much on early downs, but they still passed a lot.

And it wasn't just like teams played cover two against them for the first time in the history of Russell Wilson's career. It was a lot of things happening at once. I think an important thing is they played the Rams twice and Aaron Donald just absolutely murdered their offensive line. So again, if there was one thing you could address other than they hired a new coordinator, it's the interior offensive line. The thing that didn't make sense was the Giants game. And now granted, it was COVID season.

Weird shit was going on. There were weird results every week. I get the Rams thing. All right, we played Aaron Donald. He kicks our ass. He kind of owns us. Like, whatever. But they were so bad in that Giants game

that it really seemed... I left that game thinking, like, is he hurt? Yeah. Like, what's going on? Does he have, like, a torn labrum? Like, Adams? Like, what's going on? Leonard Williams just got, like,

$60 million off of that game, by the way, from the Giants. And then the other one that was weird was the, I'm looking at the schedule right now, the Philly game the week before where they only put up

23 on that Eagles defense. That was just hot garbage, you know? And it's like if any good offense is lighting that defense up and it's just they didn't seem right so i don't know what happens but i i uh the vegas thing i just keep focusing on that was so weird that they were on that list that that makes me think that's going to be the team

i would say if well i don't think any team's going to be the team but if entertainment was um well at least not this year. We'll talk again next year. Not this year with the $39 million pre-June 1st cap hit. But if entertainment was the thing, why is New York, which was once rumored, to be honest, no longer on the list? Why Chicago, but not New York? I feel like homeland, like trying to connect the dots, but there's no themes between any of these cities

it doesn't make sense well don't end up like Claire Danes at the end of that season of homeland when she's got the wall with all the that's all the map of stuff on it so I feel I feel like this is a really cruel thing to do to you in the offseason you have to worry about

thank you yeah I've well I was I think what's been uh unfortunate is like like what we're talking about is so much of it has been psychoanalysis like the deshaun watson story he wants out that you and we know why he wants out and most people agree with him because we can from the outside see exactly the reasons why like no biopsy necessary like we know what Deshaun Watson is pissed about I think that's what's perplexing with Wilson like we can sort of speculate yeah the offensive line but we don't know what he's looking for or what it will take to fix the team I think that's what's so frustrating about having discussions about it.

Don't hang up like the Texans on me. It's been like therapy. Vegas has the 17th pick. So you're telling me... No, absolutely not. Wait. Okay. People can't see that. I'm pantomiming a phone. This is why the Texans are terrible

because they're hanging up. So you're telling me if Vegas called and they were like, Derek Carr, our 17th pick, our next two firsts, and Josh Jacobs for Wilson. Let's call it into the league right now. You threw in Josh Jacobs to Ted Pete Carroll. I did. And Pete's looking at it going,

well, I got a B-minus quarterback instead of an A-plus quarterback. And now I have an awesome running back and I have a lot of picks and let's go. Let's get out of the realm of what would Seattle do? Because I don't pretend to know what they will do. Let me ask you, if you were a fan of Seattle,

take me out of it, would you want them to do that? If they could make some godfather trade for Wilson, I would do it. Here's why. But is that a godfather? Is what you just described a godfather trade?

Three firsts, Jacobs and Derek Carr. And you know the firsts are not... Derek Carr, David Carr. Which Carr is it? Happens a lot, you know. And you know, the first David Carr is which car is it? Happens a lot. You know, but those, you know, those firsts are not going to be top 10 firsts.

I know. You think that's a godfather trade? Yeah. I think it's a lot for a guy who, how many years has he been in the league though? He's in his, what is he? 32,

33, 31. I think you're right. It's probably what you don't have in that trade is the league now. He's in his, what is he, 32, 33? 31, I think. You're right. It's probably what you don't have in that trade is the awesome pick. Right.

You don't have the awesome pick. Now, if you were talking Deshaun Watson or a top two or three draft pick, different conversation. So could there be,

has there ever been a three-team trade in the NFL? A lot of the ones involving Chicago have been three-team trade, like proposals for this. There have been three-team trades, but not of this proportion. Yeah, because Miami would be the other team that made sense. Yeah.

And then that could be some, it's too bad Tua wasn't better. If Tua had been better last year, this would be soua had been better last year this would be so much more fun fake trade season would be so much more fun yeah I'm not ready to rule out Tua I know

I'm just saying he's not the kind of asset it's not like Herbert where it's like oh Herbert's in this trade that's all you need but yeah if there was some sort of move

where Watson went to Seattle and Wilson went somewhere else and then that team sent NBA if I the NFL people already there's a... NBA-ify the NFL. People already... There's a lot of people in the NFL

who, when they see what's going on with Deshaun Watson, they're grumbling about NBA, you know, football players, power. When, in fact, it's an extraordinarily unusual situation. I also think it's just the way things are now. I think people try to grab control of their destiny a lot more than maybe they

did in generations past. So if an athlete's like, it sucks here, I'm getting out. But it's also a thing that if you really think about it, it has been happening in sports since the, since the seventies, like John Elway got drafted by the Baltimore Colts. He was like, fuck that. Yeah. Trade, trade me. We've seen, we've seen things. Yeah. Eli, fuck that. Yeah, of course. Trade me. Eli. Yeah, Eli, we've seen this in the different things. I also think that Sean, out of anybody who's pulled this,

I think has had the most favorable public approval rating probably of anyone, right? People are like, yeah, you do it. You got to get out of there, Sean, run. Yeah, exactly. Because your boy Jack,

who hung up on you earlier from wherever he was, everyone knows the score there, right? because you're right exactly because your boy jack who hung up on you earlier from the wherever he was like everyone knows the score there right like it i i've rarely seen actually um a holdout it's not even a holdout yet but a clash between team and player where everyone's so biased in front favor of the player like can you think and i will say say this, too. This came up, I did a story, my first story at ESPN was about Daryl Rivas. And, you know, obviously, famously, how to do whatever you wanted. And I was trying to figure out what does it take for a player to do that? Because his uncle was Sean Gilbert, who famously did it. And what I kind of got gathered from him was you really have to not care what the public thinks of you. Like, it seems like more players should do this, but there's extraordinary pressure not to do it. Fans are chitting on you constantly, most of the time. People are really angry with you,

and most people can't handle that. Whereas in Deshaun Watson's case, everyone's on his side. Like, it's really actually kind of an unusual circumstance. So if the Jets offered you two and Darnold for Wilson, you wouldn't do it?

Oh, pick two? Yeah. I would not do it. You wouldn't do two and Darnold. That's it. No. No.

Why do I need Darnold if I have pick two? I don't even want Darnold. Give me more picks. Because then you could trade down from two and get more picks. No. No. Darnold. Give me more picks. Because then you could trade down from two and get more picks. No.

No. Darnold's not my quarterback. Stop it. Here's my advice. Don't trade Russell Wilson would be my advice. Thank you. No, seriously. Like, don't.

If he was 34 or 35, I think it's different. But it seems like he's got a lot of time left. I would vote for the coach QB therapy. Before we go, the Titans basically traded Johnny Smith and Corey Davis for Bud Dupree. Sometimes I like looking at free agency and being like,

all right, this amount of money went out. This came in. Bud Dupree's coming off a major injury though. Yes. That seems relevant. Yeah. He'll be back, though. He is. That seems relevant. Yeah. He'll be back, but still. ACL, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. I think more relevant than, well, maybe not more, but equally relevant is that Bud Dupree played across from T.J. Watt. And now he goes to Tennessee. It's a very different,

not just T.J. Watt, like that whole defensive line was really good. So I think that's the skepticism around him is, can he produce on his own? And I'm not so sure. I mean So I think that's the skepticism around him is can he produce on his own? And I'm not so sure. I mean, I think he can,

but he might not be as good as they need him to be. The Green Bay lost their center, but they kept Aaron Jones. After drafting a running back in the second round last year. If you thought your Patriots two tight ends in the third round was bad. I don't get that at all.

The Chargers beefed up their offensive line, which I appreciate it because protect Justin Herbert for anyone who has his rookie cards. Other than that, we're taping this at, now it's four o'clock. It still feels like there's a couple more shoes to drop.

Kenny Galladay. Big shoe, yeah. It still feels like there's a couple more shoes to drop. Kenny Galladay. Kenny Galladay. Big shoe. Yeah. But who has money left for Kenny Galladay? I don't have the cap in front of me, but Indy is sitting on a boatload of money and no one knows what the plan is there.

I think the Jets still have some. They went out and got Davis and Carl Lawson, who I really like. Yeah. They still got some money, I think. I'm not 100% sure. There's still a few teams. I mean, we've seen how guys... Every team has been restructuring

deals. The other big name, and I think this is probably ESPN's number one free agent, is Trent Williams. The Niners left tackle. Best left tackle available. Probably going to be the highest paid left tackle in football. So that's one to keep you right. I know San Francisco wants him back,

but Colts would be great. I know the Chiefs tried reportedly. So that is probably the biggest name left. Sneaky best signing was the safety Cleveland guy. Don Johnson, my guy from the Rams. Yeah, he's good. A beloved internet guy. John Johnson. Love that guy. Yeah. He's a beloved internet guy. John Johnson.

Love that guy. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, Cleveland, I think if you're using the, the framework of like the team that had a taste last year.

Yeah. It kept everybody has a couple of pieces actually coming back. Like the Odell thing where they're going to have Odell, add a couple small things, and then it seems like they're the favorite to have a lot of smoke blowing up their ass in August, would be my guess. Right? Yeah.

It's very unusual to look at a Cleveland roster and be like, wow, there's really not that many areas of need on offense. On defense, they did need to beef up the secondary. I think they still need like another edge rusher opposite Miles Garrett. But I liked the Johnson signing a lot. They get Grant Delpit back. Harrison's still there.

And yeah, if the corners are healthy too. I don't know. I know you said smoke, but I like Cleveland. I think. You see, this is what I mean. No, but. Get the smoke machine ready. I don't know. I know you said smoke, but I like Cleveland. This is what I mean. Get the smoke machine ready. I don't like them because they're trendy. I like them because they have a good coach and

GM and those are real things, right? Just remember they're haunted. Super Bowl ads before we go. These are on FanDuel. Indy's 23 to 1. So where does that rank? So I'll just give you all of them fast. Casey's five to one. Tampa's eight to one. Cross those

off. Bad value. Wow. Green Bay's 11 to one. Cross that off. Buffalo's 12 to one. A little trendy. Rams at 13 to one. Seems about right. When I do these odds, I'm looking for value, right? Not just like these are Ravens 14-1, Niners 14-1. That seems high. Browns 22-1. Saints 22-1. Colts 23-1. Your Seahawks 23-1.

Cowboys 29-1, waste of money. Titans 29-1. Now here's where it gets interesting for the actual value. The Dolphins are 30-1. And what's interesting about that is they're picking third, and there's moves, right? So, like, if they got Deshaun, all of a sudden, they're 12-1. Rocket ship.

I might pick the Moanborough Buffalo to win the division in that case, yeah. You could argue that quarterback spot cost them, what, at least three games last year? Just to a sucking? I would say it wasn't just that, but yeah, there were some mistakes across the board. And then they fell apart late. Then you have the Pats, 31.

Chargers, 31-1, which is, please don't bet that. Steelers, 32-1, no. Cardinals, 41, no. Vikings, now we're in the 50-1 and up category. Vikings, Panthers, Bears, Raiders, 50-1. And then if you're

going deep, deep, deep stealth, Broncos, 65-1. If I thought they had a shot at Deshaun, I would love that, but... Yeah, not with their quarterbacks. They've just not been realistically If I thought they had a shot at Deshaun, I would love that. Yeah, not with their quarterbacks. They've just not been realistically linked to him.

Even if they trade up, because we're talking about the draft, I still don't think they'll compete. And then the other one, which I just think has to be mentioned, because last year the Browns were like 80-1 and the Bucs were like 60-1, and then the Bucs actually ended up, they trade for Brady, they get the whatever. Falcons are 60-1. Now, you mentioned earlier, they signed Matt Ryan.

So we actually know he's coming back now. They have a really high pick that potentially, I think they're the fourth pick, right? Yes. So if we have the run on the QB, QB, QB, and they're sitting fourth, Trey Lance would be the one that hasn't been taken yet, basically. But you have four teams clamoring for him.

They might be able to auction that pickoff, move down five spots, get another first. Or they could just take the best defensive player in the draft. People are split on that, but some people think it's Parsons. But they kind of fit the profile of they could be good right away. They get a blue chipper with that four spot. They get a little more healthy. They have a new coach that I think everybody likes, the son of the FedEx billionaire, the greatest football story of the year. Really good coach.

But yeah, that's a team. They're in a division. New Orleans is going to take a step back. Tampa, who knows, post-Super Bowl. Carolina, who knows, but who knows? I don't know about Super Bowl odds, but I like their odds to bounce back in a big way. I don't have their Pythagorean wins in front of me, which is based, of course, on win differential relative

to, you know, you can see what the record should have been versus what it actually was, and I know it's better. The classic bounce back team. Not just do they have Arthur Smith. They also hired Dean Pease who came back out of retirement to be their defensive coordinator. So I think they're going to rebound on defense. And what they should do with the four pick is trade down and they can get a lot of value there.

I like the Falcons. Like that offense has been so frustrating to watch for the last three years Matt Ryan's not been perfect but he should be so much better than you they have Julio they don't just have Julio they have Ridley and Hayden Hurst is decent like that should be a good team they were easily the best shitty team last year

which should be some sort of a word right I feel like they could hang with anybody the Chiefs game? Yeah they were I think I'm pretty sure like the Bucks ripped off a lot of They'd hate with the Chiefs. Yeah. They were, I think, I'm pretty sure like the Bucs ripped off a lot of what they did against the Chiefs. They, I like the Falcons. I'm going to give you the NFC South odds

before we go. Tampa Bay is minus 140. This is on FanDuel. New Orleans, two to one. Carolina, plus 850. The Falcons, plus 950 to win that division. That's a good bet. Free division. That's a good bet.

Free money. That's a good bet. All right. For Carolina? I might actually do that. That'd be fun to root for. Mina, plug something. My podcast is the Mina Kimeshow featuring Lenny.

It's a football podcast. Yeah, you've never invited me. What else? You can watch NFL Live every weekdayday 4 p.m. Eastern and we will hopefully no longer be talking about hypothetical Russell Wilson traits

and you're getting pulled into a rewatch most in a couple weeks I haven't told you yet what movie is it or do you don't review there are always surprises right

I'm gonna text you about it later it's in your wheelhouse okay I just watched the player for the first time it's really good Robert Altman

yeah have you done a rewatchables for that? You should. No, that's a classic LA movie. That feels like Sean Fennessey all over. Oh my God. That's like right in his wheelhouse. Mina, great to see you as always. Thank you. Good to see you. All right. Chris Ryan is here. We've been working together for almost 10 years. This summer, it'll be our 10-year anniversary together. I'm going to get you some negligee and some

jewelry, and we'll go out to a nice candlelight dinner. I lied to you. I told you I wanted to talk about Beartown today. I've never seen Beartown. I actually just want to talk about Joe Ellenbead and whether his career is over. I knew you wouldn't comeown. I actually just want to talk about Joel Embiid and whether his career is over. I knew you wouldn't come on if I said I want to talk Sixers. So I've made up this whole Beartown. No, I'm kidding. We're actually going to talk about Beartown in one second. But let's talk about Embiid really quickly since you're here.

He was going to win the MVP. He'd played 30 or 36 games and was looking great. And I thought it was the best person on the first half of the season. And the rub on his MVP ads was like, it's Joel Embiid. He's seven foot three. He's, he gets dinged up. He has some dumb injuries. He almost got hurt earlier in the season. And then it actually happens. He lands, he has some awesome dunk lands. It looks like he blew out every ligament in his knee. Now he's out for two weeks, but I think this kills his MVP chances, right? So who swoops in? Like, well, I guess that's the, cause that's the other side of this is like,

who's going to swoop in and take it, LeBron? So LeBron will be the sentimental favorite. I think Jokic is by far having the best offensive season of anybody we're talking about other than Embiid. You look at what Jokic is doing. He's almost a 60-40-90 guy, you know, and is a dominant offensive player. He's the most important guy on that team by far

and really good in the clutch. I would argue he might be the best last three minutes in the league, last three minutes in the game guy in the league right now. I don't know if that's going to hold for the playoffs, but what would you say? Better than Lillard too?

Better than Dame? I think so, because he can create shots for other guys too. I think that's the difference with them. If I had to have one guy in the last three minutes of games, I would go,

so you would go with Dame? If I could have one person with the ball in their hands in the last couple of minutes, yeah, I'd probably go with Dame right now. I feel like the Jokic thing, you know, and Zach was calling,

Zach did a good job early part of the season and even like over the summer talking about how there was some Jokic-Dirk similarities that because of Jokic's body, maybe we weren't seeing, but, you know, offensively, he's having the best year. Defensively, he's not the same part Giannis is

and Giannis is also in the conversation again and everybody's like, nah, nobody's going to vote for Giannis again. But statistically, he's having the best year. Defensively, he's not the same player Giannis is. And Giannis is also in the conversation again. And everybody's like, nah, nobody's going to vote for Giannis again. But statistically, he's having a better season than LeBron. And he's a much better defensive player. But I don't think anyone's going to vote for him. So I would say those are the three. Is there anybody else?

There's some hardened momentum that I'm not buying. Do you want to go like full Joker and say it could be hardened? I'm not there yet. You're not there yet, are you? No, of course not. I wouldn't be there if he was like... I mean, I wasn't there when...

Emotionally, at least. I knew intellectually that he was the MVP in those years in Houston, but it didn't feel good. With Embiid, it's like... I almost hope someone does slide in and make a case during his absence so that there's not this feeling like he needs to rush back. And then when he gets back, prove his case,

it's just like, okay, like, you know, things broke poorly. You didn't win it this year or whatever. It's LeBron's year. Whoever might win it now,

just take your foot off the gas a little bit and close and, and be in shape for the playoffs. Cause that's, that's the thing is like, I actually think this season, it's really like the number one seed in the East feels really important in shape for the playoffs. Because that's the thing. I actually think this season, it's really like the number one seed in the East feels really important because you can let a little bit of a dogfight happen

before you get to the conference finals. And they might be able to avoid Milwaukee and Brooklyn until the conference finals if they play this right. Yeah, and so right now, we're taping this on a Tuesday afternoon before all the games right now they basically have a two-game lead over milwaukee and a half game lead over brooklyn i personally think brooklyn's gonna get the one seed you do because when you think like how they

are able to survive and thrive without durant he really hasn't played for how many weeks now three and then he got scratched for COVID, but they just have the ability to survive basically an injury to any of those guys. And even if two of the guys went down, the other guy could carry the team for like three games, right? Yeah.

No, Durant's the guy, Durant is the guy like that, he doesn't show up to that many parties, but when he does, he just makes them absolutely epic and memorable. But if he's not there, you can still have a good party, you know,

like, but when he arrives back, it's not like they have to change everything they're doing when Durant comes back. No, he fits in with teammates about as well as anybody in the league. They need him for the four rounds. That's where they don't necessarily need him for the regular season.

I still feel like they could get to the one seed. And at some point, you know, Harden's, if you've actually been watching the last few games, like he's not, he's basically kind of gravitating back to Houston Harden again, which is annoying. He had, Rosillo had an unbelievable tweet of Harden taking a fallback three, but then somehow lurching forward into the guy's landing space and almost blowing out the defenders' Achilles. And of course, they called the foul.

But he's doing all the Harden stuff again. But I still feel like when Durant comes back, he'll settle back into the Brooklyn Harden, which is this whole new version of him. I just think he has no chance. I think there's going to be, when you think there's like 110 voters or something like that, there's going to be too many people who are like, no, no, no, fuck this. Yeah, you can't get an MVP vote after forcing your way out of a team. You'll get my third place vote

and you like it. With Jokic, they're 23 and 16. They're a five seed right now. And I think they stay top five because they're a half game over Portland. Everybody else is going to be too far behind them. So they'll be a top five seed. If they can leapfrog the Clippers,

which is very possible because the Clippers are Jekyll and Hyde, and at least get into the top four and maybe have one of the best seven records in the league, then the Jokic case becomes conceivable, especially with the durability. I also think that team's going to get better second half of the season.

You were beautiful minding it last week with all your possible Denver trades. Are you still feeling like they're going to make some move next week? I would like to see them make a move. The Will Barton things become a little bit of a quick fix for them. And there is a world where they could just play him at crunch time with

Porter and Jokic and Murray. And then you just kind of figure out who the, who the fifth guy is, who's going to have to be able to rebound and at least play a little bit of defense. So maybe that's where they'll go instead. But I'd still feel like that's, that's a team that has assets to make move. And if I were them, I would make a trade because as we talk about all the time in this podcast, you never know what your window is. Like right now they're one of the seven, eight contenders. Like they have one of the best players trade because as we talk about all the time in this podcast, you never know what your window is. Like right now they're one of the seven, eight contenders. Like they have one of the best players in the league. You go for it. Yeah. And especially now that we, you know, like this idea that Davis

might be missing more and more time and, and like this particular nature of his injury being what it is. Like, I don't think you should just take it as like a fait accompli that the Lakers are going to win the West. Like, I think you should give it your best shot. And if that means trading Gary Harris or trading Barton, like you're saying, like your best shot. And if that means trading Gary Harris or trading Barton, like you're saying, I don't see why not. Or Gary Harris, bowl, bowl, Hampton, a pick. You can patchwork this and do a four quarters for a dollar trade.

Back to Philly for a second. They're one of the strangest teams because Embiid, who is incredible this season and who is a dominant superstar, but he gets hurt and it's like this new Philly morphs out of the carcass of dead Philly post post and beat Philly for two weeks. And it's like, ah, this is kind of fun too. There's a little more Simmons, Dwight Howard

gets some, but there's a little more small ball action. And, and really we get a chance to see all the fun stuff. Simmons. I'm not against not watching Embiid for two weeks on the Sixers. I think that I build in Embiid absences into my enjoyment of them. So for as much as I want him to win the MVP award, it's almost like spring break.

You're like, hey, you got a new mustache going. It's like Tobias Harris is playing five. I kind of enjoy watching Matisse and Korkmaz and a little bit of Maxie out there get a little bit more minutes for guys and they've started bringing Scott in. I can't believe how much I love the Doc experience,

man. I know that I've just like, I guess I never really appreciated it because it was Boston or it was the Clippers, but like just this first year, I've just like press conferences, like the way he's managed guys, I think that they really successfully got them through whatever the stupid

sports radio debate about is it Embiid's team or Simmons' team. And it's like, Simmons is just the most effective Swiss Army knife in the league. Let's just play him that way and not expect him to do anything that he's not comfortable doing. So I've really enjoyed the Doc experience. Well, they also

survived the was Simmons in that Harden trade or not saga. Yes. Which usually goes badly. Because he was in the trade. Every indication I've heard is that they kind of thought they had a deal. And then all of a sudden they didn't.

And it doesn't seem to have affected the team anyway. And that's where somebody like Doc becomes so important. It's also, he's been at this now. He's been coaching for this entire century, basically. Right? He had Orlando. He went to ABC for two years, comes back, is with the Celts, goes right to the Clippers.

And I do feel like he's kind of, he knows what he can and can't do. Right? He's got some real game strategy weaknesses, which he always tries to fix with whoever his assistant coaches are. And some of that stuff depends on the coaches. But his player management press conference game has never been better. And I do feel like some of that dates back to all the stuff that happened last summer

when Doc became the lead voice of the coaches. There was this extra level of authority that he just didn't have a year ago. And now I feel like he is, you know, I think one of the most important behind the scenes guys the league has. I think that trickles into your coaching. I really do. Like there's a certain level of leadership when you were one of the key guys in the most traumatic kind of stretch of weeks that the league's probably had in 50 years. And he was one of the guys that helped carry them through it.

I think that helps. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think they've got a really good assistant coach bench with Jaeger and those guys. And I think that he definitely just seems to have that at least in that first year, but in those first few seasons especially. It's not unlike what happens

a lot with soccer managers where you bring a guy in and he's very effective in that first 18 months to 24 months. Then maybe guys get tired of getting yelled at or tired of being dicked around

in like the 30th month. But Doc definitely has a honeymoon period and we're still in it. Plus, probably too cold to golf out in Philly right now. So he's got all his attention focused on the Sixers. He's done a good job with Simmons. Plus, it's probably too cold to golf out in Philly right now, so he's got all his attention focused on the Sixers.

He's done a good job with Simmons. I think he's really kind of pumped him up. And that's a thing that Doc was really good at over the years is pumping dudes up. And Simmons has been—I'm voting for him for Defensive Player of the Year unless he gets hurt. You can take your Rudy Gobert and go fuck off. Seriously. Rudy Gobert is probably going to win if he stays healthy. I get it, but I'm voting for Ben. Just quickly on Embiid. I think he

now leads the league all time. If this was a basketball reference category in moments where something happens where you think his career is over. No, that's Anthony Davis. How are we? No. How is this a conversation? No, because Davis. Oh, no, not AD. How many times have we tweeted that over the last eight years? But Davis, half the time, you don't know if there's some acting involved or some milking.

And B does these things where it's like, oh, my God, he just blew out every ligament in his leg. I'd love to know how many times that happens because he's driving from the top of the key. Like, if Embiid was playing a little bit closer to the basket on more plays, I wonder how often he would find himself going full steam towards the hoop and then getting tripped up.

It doesn't feel like that can happen as much with his back to the basket three feet away. That's not anybody's fault. I just think he's one of those guys where it's like when he hits the deck, you're just like, oh, shit, this entire thing is over. Yeah, he's an incredible athlete who's also weirdly unathletic sometimes. He'll land in a pile and his leg is somehow going backwards as he's landing. Yeah.

But I think it's more to do with the fact that he's just 7'3". And Ralph Sampson was like this too. Ralph Sampson, the reason his career flipped in the mid 80s was he had a couple of really bad spills. Because when you're that big, it's so easy for either somebody's ankle to go underneath you or somebody to knock you the wrong way. And it's almost like a tree.

Like once you start falling a certain way, you kind of can't stop, right? Yeah. And you don't have like the kind of like, I'll just get my hands underneath of me here like a normal sized person might. Like it's like, oh, I'm over. stop, right? Yeah. And you don't have like the kind of like, oh, I'll just get my hands underneath of me here. Like a normal sized person might. Like it's like, oh, I'm over. Like, yeah, definitely. Well, I'm glad he, I was actually watching when he got hurt

and it seemed like it was over. Yeah. It just seemed like his knee went backwards while his leg stayed in the same spot. And it was like, oh, that's, but then. That's the season. Yeah. When he walked off, it seemed like a hyper extension. But that dude...

It's always interesting with Joel. But it was a bummer because I thought he was just... I thought he had just hit another level. And I know we've talked about it here. All right. We are going to Audible to talk about a show called Beartown, which is on HBO Max. It's the sweetest show Swedish show. I think you were the

one who described it to me as Swedish hockey Friday Night Lights. Was that you? Yeah. I was talking about this a little bit with Greenwald. It was basically when I described the show, he was like, so is it like if they made the entire Friday Night Lights just out of the second season of Friday Night Lights when Landry kills a guy? Right. Because it definitely has like an underbelly of crime to it. Yeah. All right. So we're going to, if people are afraid of us spoiling the show, we're going to talk

about it abstractly for a couple minutes and then we'll dive into some stuff. So you can still keep listening. I'll tell you when we're about to spoiler alert some stuff. So there's a few reasons that I really love this show. There's been four, the season finale is running next week. You can catch up on all four of them on HBO Max. It's taking, as you know, I love shows that take me into a world, right? Take me in a world that I don't know. I don't care where it is. Am I going to like a coal mining town? Am I going into some hospital in Chicago? Am I going into, you know, Wall Street? Like I like going, I like going places.

Yeah, ad agency in New York in the 60s. Yeah. Right. This takes us into this really weird Swedish hockey, small town. It's kind of like Canada, but the people seem a little more European, nefarious, kind of crazy. Everything hinges on this team, but everybody's kind of communicating in these kind of low energy, aggro. It's just different. So it kind of sucks you in immediately. And you're trying to feel out the coach and the pilot who is basically the Friday Night Lights theme of this guy's here to kind of save the town.

Yeah. Prodigal son comes back to his hometown to save the hockey club that's attached to the factory in this small town in Northern Sweden. And this idea that you're talking about, this create a world for me, my favorite detail in the show, this is a spoiler, is that in this rundown hockey arena that they have this rink there's like this little cafe that's above the ice and that's where all the guys hang out it seems to be where they do all of their like front office meetings it's where all the like boosters and diehard fans hang out and that's where they have all the meetings about who will be the coach and i was like what a fucking amazing idea I like you have to, that has to be a real thing because I never would have thought

to be like, let's put this really dingy cafe right above this thing. So that right there is just the detail that sucks you into the world. Yeah. It looks like a big lodge, like main bar, restaurant, coffee place area, and some kind of rundown hotel at a resort that wasn't as nice as it was 20 years ago yeah and they have like this the same way with with friday night lights where they have the boosters like the buddy garrity types who are sponsors and so they have a lot of sway over it and then in this show they have like a couple of like older guys who seem to be sort of like the general managers of the whole hockey setup there where they have like a men's team, but then a juniors team. And this guy is brought in, Peter Anderson is brought in to coach the men's team. And he immediately spots a kid on the juniors that he

sees is like, it's just like a prodigy. He's the LeBron. Yeah. And he's like, so I want to coach the juniors. And he basically makes this move where he kicks the LeBron yeah and he's like so I want to coach the juniors and he basically makes this move where he kicks the guy who was coaching the juniors off the job and is like this is who I want to coach but there's this weird

true crime element which is the Friday Night Light season 2 you mentioned where it starts off with the first thing you see is somebody chasing somebody else in the snow

and holding a gun to them and you're like what the fuck is that and then at the end of the first episode it's revealed who it is. I'm not going to spoil it. And then that kind of sets off where we go.

It's only five episodes. It's pretty dark. It goes into some of the hockey stuff, I think is some of the best sports stuff I've ever seen on a television show. It is the little nuances they have for the way the guys carry, carry themselves on and off the ice, the way they interact, um, how they do the drills.

Like it's clear. And I didn't read up on how they cast this. It's clear. They, they did not do the Hollywood thing of like, Oh no, we're Kevin. We found a great actor for Kevin. He can't really skate. We're going to have to cheat it with some edits. Like, everybody in this, on this show, seems like they played hockey at a really high level, which pays off. In the first episode,

there's a game and it's a good scene. The game in episode two, Unreal. It's the best sports sequence. It's like 20 minutes long. It's like a 22-minute scene. It's the best sports sequence

I've ever seen on a television show. And we're used to like the Friday Night Lights where it's good, but then you know, they're running a 73-yard Hail Mary. Friday Night Lights, they start it. It's like, here's everybody arriving at the game. They go to commercial, they come back,

and it's like 42- 37 with 45 seconds left, and Saracen's got the ball on his own 40-yard line. Yeah, his own 20, and he's running a flea flicker. Yeah. Reverse halfback option. Yeah. Exactly. This is not any of that. This shows people warming up,

getting ready in the locker room before games, and then it basically shows like an 18-minute version of a full hockey match. And I know that that might sound boring to some people, but the coolest thing we're both saying is like the guys play hockey in character. Like there are characters in this show and they skate around in ways that are connected to who they are off the ice. And so they've got this kid named Amat who is this kind of, he's sort of the Matt Saracen. He's like this out of nowhere talent who's like super fast and you can just tell like as soon as this kid starts skating a whole other side of him comes out from the way he is when he's off the ice and he's really shy and he's really like kind of he's he's

an immigrant in this town so like he's he's just kind of like not sure about like his place in the world but when he's on the ice he's just fucking electric and so it's just really cool to watch them be able to do that not Not many shows can do that. And Kevin, the prodigy guy, is appropriately a prodigy in every sports scene he's in, even when he's like shooting outside his house. They also did a nice job.

This is such a subtle thing, but just the composition of a hockey team and the different kind of guys you need for the team to succeed. One of the best scenes in the whole show is when the coach pulls everybody together and he's giving out pucks. Yeah. And he's like,

he says to, uh, what's the guy's name? William lit. Yeah. He's like, basically he's like, you're my agitator.

You get on under people's skin. That's what you do. That's what you have to do for me. And then it goes to the Bobo guys. You got to put on 40 pounds. You're my enforcer. Kevin needs to be protected. He goes through, but hockey teams are like that. There's the enforcer, there's the agitator, there's the prodigy, there's the speed guy. You know, they could have even gone further. We could have had, we don't really know who like

the Zidane O'Chara, this team is like the, you know, the big Hulk defenseman or like, they don't really go into who the goalie is. Sure. I think if this was a 10 episode show, maybe they would, but it's, it's the little nuances like that when, and then when we actually see the game, as you said, like the guys are kind of in character, right? The guy who's the agitator, he's also an agitator when he's, when he's, uh, when he's off the ice, but so that part's incredible. And then they hit the, you know, the toxic high school sports culture, like,

which, you know, I think some people have treaded there and maybe haven't pulled it off or they've done the cartoon character of it. And this is how it plays out. Ends up being like a little bit on steroids of how this could go wrong. Sure. Which we're not going to spoil yet but um they go into it and i think about as authentic of a way as i've seen

yeah so the the they basically make this micro sports are usually a microcosm for society anyway in shows and in movies but then you double that up with it being small town sports and it really does feel like there's only like 15 people in this town. So all of the characters take on this outsized kind of persona, even though you only get to see them in passing. So there's like a hockey mom named Megan, who is just an absolute, like every time she's on screen,

you're just like, where did they find this person? Who's just like the personification of a sports mom, of a helicopter mom. The over, yeah, the over, overdoing it sports mom. Yeah. And so I think that the way that they present it is really effective. So we can get into what happens if you want to. Yeah. Just one more note on that. The side characters who are barely in this, right? The guy who's been there forever with the beard, who's trying to save the town.

Sune, yeah. The Kevin's dad, who's the sponsor, who you could just tell, like, oh. He's like evil Buddy Garrity, basically. JD's dad. Yeah. He's just a terrible guy. You just know right away he's got the evil face. He's got the hair that almost looks

like a toupee. And then, in the fourth episode, they have the game, the big climactic game. And they have the fans in the thing. And the one guy's like,

hey ref, you fucking suck. He's just like screaming. He's so angry. I think the translation is you whore of a ref. He's so angry during the games, but they just kind of nail every piece of it.

And I'm honestly bummed out that it's only five episodes. I hope it comes back for a second season. Yeah, I mean, well, it's a series of books, so I do think that there is obviously a multi-season potential for it. But the five episodes, if it's going to be this dark, which it is, I think it helps to have it

be like a little bit more of like a limited series season run, because otherwise I think it becomes a little unrelenting. All right. So if you haven't seen it yet, you can leave the podcast now. We're just going to spoil the end and then we're done. So here we go.

Um, so the toxic stuff, this, this whole show flips on, uh, on a pretty fairly graphic day. Brutal. Brutal.

Yeah. Um, about as tough of a three minute watch as I can remember on a pretty fairly graphic date. Brutal. Brutal. Yeah. About as tough of a three-minute watch as I can remember on a TV show, only because you don't really know what's coming. They have the disclaimer at the beginning of the episode.

So my guard was up. Right. And then also Maya is involved in the flash forward. Right. And we find out at the end of the first episode, Maya's chasing this guy with a gun.

So between that and the disclaimer, my guard was up and then she's at the party of the first episode, Maya's chasing this guy with a gun. So between that and the disclaimer, my guard was up and then she's at the party and she's clearly, you know, having fun. And you're like, oh man, oh no, they're not going to go because she's the coach's daughter. This isn't going to be the twist. Then they go there.

And how it unfolds over the next two episodes is really just devastating to watch. It's wrenching, yeah. And they do this amazing trick on you where she finally decides to rat the guy out to the authorities and say what happened and try to get him convicted.

And it takes her a week, but she does it right before the game. The final. And you're in this mindset of, I can't wait for this game. I can't wait to see what happens. And then she screws up the game. And it's almost as a viewer,

you're feeling like the people in the town where you're like, wait, we're doing this now. And then you're like, oh my God, yeah, we should do this now. But it plays this weird Jedi mind trick on you. And it's really brilliant how they do it. Yeah, they make you entirely culpable

because when the assault happens, so obviously it's Kevin rapes Maya. And so you do it. Yeah, they make you entirely culpable because when the assault happens, so obviously it's Kevin rapes Maya. And so you see it. And episode two, because they do this entire game on screen, you are completely locked in. We could start a podcast

about the Beartown hockey team after the second episode. You could just be like, this is how they're doing their rotations. And you're so psyched that they win this semifinal. They come in before the semifinal and be like, if you guys win, we might be able to build a new arena.

If you lose, we're closing down hockey in this town. Right. So it's the old time sports movie setup, basically. They have to win this match. They go into this match. It's a great,

great piece of film sports. And you're just flying high. And then they completely gut punch you with this scene at the end of the episode and you're just flying high. And then they completely gut punch you with this scene at the end of the episode where you're expecting this celebration and Maya gets raped. And it completely...

Well, and on top of it, they've built this real bond between Kevin and the coach that I was invested in. And so I just didn't see it coming. So they basically make you culpable. They bring you into this world where the same thing that is kind of corrupting this town,

which is placing all of this onus on the hockey team to be everything to the town, is now you're as a viewer watching and you're like, I care so much about this hockey. He's like, no, you don't. You care about Maya. You should care about... Right. And like any of the stuff that happens in episode four, where people start being like, did she have to report it now?

Or how could you betray us? How could you not coach us through this? And you're like, are you out of your mind? Like, of course he can't coach through this. Of course he would drop everything to take care of his daughter. But like in the minds of these people in the town, they're like, this really screwed up our season.

Right. And it's episode four as it keeps going is just by the end of it, you're like, oh my, you don't even know what to do. It's just, as it keeps going is just by the end of it, you're like, Oh my, you don't even know what to do. It's just, it's tough.

And it sets up whatever I think. We don't know if she ends up shooting him in episode five or maybe at the last second, she puts, pulls the gun up and shoots it over his head or. Yeah. I mean, they're definitely creating an expectation that justice will not be served

through the courts in this scene, in this, in this world, because like already Kevin's dad is kind of marshalling everybody against Maya and her dad and saying, well, Maya was complicit in this and stuff like that. So it definitely doesn't seem like it's going to be a smooth sailing for that. And you would have to imagine there's going to be extra judicial stuff in it. It's a really interesting, inventive kind of way to do a channel like HBO Max. Where you have shows like this. You have shows like Generation. Which I also thought was a really fun, unique watch.

I didn't think it was as good as this show. But my wife really liked it. I didn't like it as much. But I thought it was good. But I think that's kind of how you have to play these channels. You can't, you're not,

basically you're doing niche stuff and super broad, like comic book stuff, right? So Mandalorian is the best way to do it. Or this niche stuff that, this is not something that would be on Sunday nights at 10 o'clock on HBO. I don't think.

No. Because the subtitle thing is a big obstacle. I'm not a subtitle guy. It is on on Monday nights. And they have had some success putting some stuff, usually international stuff, on Monday nights. And I do think that people over the course of the year... Andy and I were just talking about this,

about what we've learned from this year of being inside and watching TV, if there's any new trends coming out. One of the things that we were talking about was this idea that I think people are actually like pretty open to trying a lot of stuff. Like when you look at the Netflix top 10, it's just like, you're like, wow,

what a weird variety of crap on this top 10. And when it comes to HBO max, I think like anecdotally, I think people are kind of like, I can watch, I can watch a show with subtitles. It's fine. Like as long as it's good, if it's the investigation, if it's call my agent, if it'sally, I think people are kind of like, I can watch a show with subtitles. It's fine. As long as it's good,

if it's the investigation, if it's call my agent, if it's this, I'm fine kind of wading through subtitles. Whereas maybe that was like a barrier to entry two, three years ago. I don't know. Maybe people just have more practice.

That was going to be my point. It's almost like you have to get into the rhythm of it. And the underlying thing with the subtitles is you can't second screen it. Yes. It's not in the background. Yes. You, you, if you're looking down, you're, you're, you know, you're on eBay or you're on Twitter or whatever, you're just going to miss like two minutes. You look up, it's like, wait, wait, why are they in a fight? Cause they're talking in Swedish. So you have to watch. And that was, I think one of the reasons the show is so effective, you have to watch it.

Yeah. So I'm watching a show right now that's on AMC Plus. And so you can watch it through Amazon. You can watch, I think you can watch it on a different, but wherever you have your AMC Plus subscription through. And it's basically like,

if you only made a show out of the office parts of the Bourne movies. Wow. And it's French. And it rules. What's the name of it? The Bureau. And it's just like spy game stuff that is mostly happening in offices

and with people walking around cities. But my engagement with this show is what my engagement would have been with The Wire 10 years ago. I'm just able to process this now. And I think that's the case for a lot of people. I think people are... And your point about the subtitles is right. You are a little bit more deeply locked in on a show

where you're like, I'm watching every frame because I got to see the dialogue. Before we go, I saw the first five episodes of The Kate Winslet Show. You did not. Mayor? Yeah, the mayor You did not. Mayor? Yeah, the mayor of Easttown.

Mayor of Easttown. Where she plays a Pennsylvania detective? It's fucking incredible. I can't wait. It's so good. How's her Pennsylvania accent? You would never know. It's this Kate Winslet side I was not expecting.

But when does it come out? It's like next month, right? April, yeah. Yeah. Ugh. And it's a show that builds and there's a lot of stuff in it. I'm going to be really interested to see what the reaction is on the scale of one to 10 of if Queen's Gambit was a 10, how people feel about this. I think people are going to... I mean, Kate Winslet's a pretty big star. I think people are going to be pretty locked into this.

I feel like this checks a lot of boxes. If you were just making the What's Gonna Work as a show that comes on HBO every week, this checks about as many boxes. Big Little Lies was another one that checked a lot of boxes, but this is way more authentic. It's Kate Winslet and Guy Pearce, right? Yeah, and it's got some...

It's really Kate Winslet, but it's got some quirky characters, and I don't want to spoil anything, but it's fantastic Kate Winslet, but it's got some quirky characters and I don't want to spoil anything, but it's fantastic. Awesome. I can't wait. So there you go. Chris Ryan,

we can hear you on The Watch every Friday on Ringer NBA show, The Answer. And then we did, we did on Monday, we did Inside Man with Sean Fantasy. Yeah. 15th anniversary of that.

And next week we are going to do Insidious. And thank you to the Yankees fans and my Twitter mentions from the Inside Man pod it's really been a pleasure yeah tell people what happened I just made like a kind of weird

passing comment about my dislike of Yankee hats and now guys are tweeting Yankee hat pictures at me all day long well you were saying nobody really wears

a Yankee cap anymore and Sean and I were like what are you talking about like millions of people do and you're like no they don't. It's not cool anymore. That goes into the

improvisation ruined movie comedy. Take Hall of Fame from me. Chris Ride, thanks for coming on. See ya. All right, that's it for the podcast. Coming back with one more on Thursday. I will see you then.

Don't forget to subscribe to The Ringerverse on Spotify or Apple, wherever you get your podcasts. I feel it's working On the wayside I'm a bruised soul I never want to say it I don't have to