The Bill Simmons Podcast - Best Beal Trades, the GameStop Scandal, and Super Bowl Talk With Joe House, Andrew Ross Sorkin, and Jamal Adams

Episode Date: January 29, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to discuss potential trades for Bradley Beal in the wake of what is shaping up to be a dismal season for the Washington Wizards (3:00). Then Bill is joined by Andrew Ross Sorkin of The New York Times and CNBC to discuss GameStop's surging stock prices, Wall Street's panic, trading freezes, and more (50:00). Finally Bill talks to Seattle Seahawks strong safety Jamal Adams about his NFL idols, how defensive play has evolved with NFL rule changes, playing for head coach Pete Carroll, dealing with injuries this season, Super Bowl predictions, and more (1:26:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So there you go. Sports cards, nonsense. Subscribe now. Coming up in the Action Pack pod, Joe House, our old friend. He's going to talk Bradley Bill and a whole bunch more. Andrew Ross Sorkin is going to talk about this crazy GameStop Robin Hood story, which I barely understand, but we're going to plow through it anyway. And then Jamal Adams, because we want to throw a football player in the mix, is going to talk about a whole bunch of NFL stuff. This this piece of the podcast. It's 4 o'clock Pacific time. Joe House is here. Joe House hasn't been on the BS pod as much as he normally is

because he's hosting Fairway Rolling for us. He's been doing the Ringer NFL show with Warren Sharp. And every week, Sharp tries to talk him out of bad bets and can't do it. And house just plows ahead and loses on whatever his playoff bet is. That's not why you're here house. The last time you came on the podcast, Russell Westbrook had been traded to the Washington wizards and we both thought it was a good trade. We thought it made sense. We thought the price was low. It was time for John Wall to leave Washington. And what has unfolded was the

season from hell. You have, first of all, Russell Westbrook, not healthy, which we'll get into in a second. You had multiple COVID things. You played the least amount of games of any team in the NBA. The arrow is pointing down in every respect. And now you're on to talk about Bradley Beal trades because that's where this is headed. First of all, what are your emotions right now, House? Well, how about Happy New Year? Great to see you in 2021. I'm glad we're alive. We're upright.

No COVID in the mix. We're working, you know, waiting for the vaccine like everybody else. The last time we were all convened, it was me, you, and Rosillo doing the over-unders on this BS podcast three hours. Went badly. Our wizard pick went badly. Well, what I want to ask you is if you and I can make a deal. Can you and I just please agree from now on to not pick each other's teams?

Because there was that one year where you thought the Celtics were only going to lose five games and I supported your thesis. And now this season, your enthusiasm for the Washington team was so effusive that I felt dragged along by it. I mean, I got carried away. I mean, it was irrational enthusiasm. I was responsible. I agree with you. Here's the thing.

We didn't have the information that is now apparent, which is that Russell Westbrook is no longer a healthy specimen worthy of paying $40 million a year, in this case being overpaid. We weren't aware that he might be on the other side of the cliff, that this might be an Iverson Pistons level situation where his best years are just over, that he's had too many surgeries, too many injuries, things like that. He's clearly hurt. Now, I don't blame you

and I for not knowing this. Guess who I blame your team, the Washington wizards. Why the fuck didn't they know he was hurt? I sent you, we've been having these ongoing conversations as we have during the NBA season amongst many of the beloved ringer NBA heads. And that was a point that I made recently in our conversations. Yes. The trade for we have the two worst contracts in the NBA. And the only way that trade makes sense is if both players are at the same place in terms of likelihood of contribution, likelihood of playing, you know, and, and, and being physically able to play. I don't think Westbrook's playing 30 games this year. It's not great. It, uh, it's something we did not factor in. We thought there were

explainable injuries, right? He had some calf injury in the bubble. He had COVID. We left the bubble and we thought, well, that Westbrook was terrible, but maybe that wasn't Westbrook. Now I'm looking back at it and it's just like, how many times has this guy been dinged up, banged up? How many, how many arthro surgeries has he had? And is this a situation where it's kind of ending the way we thought it would end with Westbrook abruptly where he's like a running back. It's, it's like one of those awesome Earl Campbell type running backs that plays with a certain ferocity that is, is durable and physical and does stuff day in, day out. He tries too hard in random games and it's not sustainable. And we know that that's

not sustainable in the NBA season either, because we've seen the guys that don't know how to pace themselves usually flame out fast. It happened to Iverson. Now Iverson had off the court stuff, but when it ended for Iverson, it ended immediately. He went from averaging 27 a game in Denver to being out of the league, like a year and a half later, I'm not ready to completely write off Westbrook, but he's not healthy. And I think you're 30 games or less proclamation with him. I think that might be right. His body's not right. You can see it. It it's both physical and it's in, in, in his attitude as well. Uh, how aggressive he is. The thing that really distinguishes him is his, um, you know, controlled record

recklessness, the fury at which he plays the game. And none of that is there because he's hurt. Well, it's even worse than that. Cause the controlled recklessness is now kind of like doing it from memory recklessness, but not actually having the same kind of crazy athletic ability they had before they were the game the other night. Um, not the game where you got blown up the game Westbrook played in and he had the ball, you know, they were in striking distance. They were down six, they're down eight, they're down 10 and crunch time. And he had a couple of just horrible plays where he was trying to drive the basket and do some quick athlete kick out thing and just kick

it right to somebody else. He just doesn't look the same. And the eye test tells me he's not the same guy. And it seemed that way the whole season. He was hurt before they, uh, the wizards encountered their, their spate with, with COVID. So he wasn't playing the last game. The wizards played before this week, um, against when they resumed against the Spurs, uh, on Sunday was January the 11th, but Westbrook, they'd already declared Westbrook out for the next two weeks anyway. And here's the thing, the entire, what, what, what's been revealed to us is how fragile the entire Washington situation was. If you weren't getting 80 to 85% of the version of Westbrook, that was a 27, nine and eight guy last season.

If you weren't getting, you know, 85% of that, then they're cooked because the talent on this team, and it also has been impacted by burtons not being healthy their 80 million dollar investment in him you know got off to a slow start i i was never on board with 80 millions for burtons i just never was but anyway well he's a fearless shooter um and if your thesis is that westbrook uh will be doing kickouts and Westbrook always wants to get the 10 assists a game. But this is the deal, right? They don't have any talent. They're, they're, they're the team with the least equipped to handle about with COVID and no team this season has had a worse

bout with COVID. So here we are. Oh, and you have a terrible coach. Don't forget that part. You have a coach that we thought four games into the season was going to get fired because they were underachieving out of the gate. I think just quickly on Westbrook before we get to the Beal trades.

So there's only been nine Westbrook games. And he's averaging 18, 9.7 rebounds, 10.2 assists. He's almost averaging a triple-double. If there's ever been more of an indication that triple-doubles are meaningless, just look at his stats. His usage rate is over 30.

His PER is 12.3. Put that in perspective, his MVP season was 30.6. But it's, look, the eye test backs it up. The free throw attempts are way down. 2017 is free throw attempts were 10.4. This year it's 5.2. He, um, can't shoot three pointers and he's, that hasn't been able to shoot three pointers. Really his whole career.

He's 30% this year. He's 61% from the line. His free throw shooting has really dipped the last few years. And he's shooting 37%. You could make a case he's the worst expensive guy in the league. You really could. It's either him or Blake Griffin. And Blake is another guy whose body is just sailing on him.

I just, I love looking at basketball reference. I loved when I did my book. I love doing in general. Guys hit a point. If you just look at their career stats for where they were in their peak to when they hit a season like this, when the stats look this bad, you don't usually come back. Right. This is, this is usually a glimpse of like, we have now hit the other side.

This will not come back. Have you seen any glimpses that this might come back for Westbrook? I know he's hurt. No, no. Well, he's been hurt since, you know, game one. Um, we didn't really have a good feel for how hurt, but the amount of rest that he's had to take in these first, you know, dozen games and you know, there, there's been a definitely like a diminished performance because he started off the season with a triple double. He looked like he had great energy in that opening game against the Sixers. And I thought, Oh, this is a version of the team that could be competitive. We need Bertons back. Thomas Bryant's got to make a leap. Like that's

the version of the Washington team that was going to be in the top 10 and maybe contending for a playoff berth. Now we were, um, very enthusiastic about their prospects when we talked about it before that, but it's really too bad. Yeah. So if you go back to history, so it's really Westbrook, it might be his whole body thing, but really his knee has been the issue. It's his right knee. Patrick Beverly in the, uh, game two of the first round of the 2013 Western playoffs, Beverly darted for the ball that time when Westbrook was about to call timeout, went into his knee. He ended up having a torn meniscus. So that was a problem. October, 2013, he had a second arthro surgery, came back, had increased swelling, had another arthro surgery. Then 2017, that September, he did that PRP injection thing in his knees. And then in 2018, had another arthroscopic surgery on his right knee. I'm reading all of this from a 2018 September article

that had the timeline of that. I'm pretty sure last year he might've had something as well, but it's, it's the knee first. He's also, you know, he's played a ton of minutes and is a really physical player. And unless you're Carl Malone or LeBron James, that's not going to last for more than 12, 13 years. So I'm, I've gone from being like, wow, that was a good trade for the whiz. He's going to be a 30, 10, 10 guy for them, whether it'll be a fish or not, who cares him and be able to gather, there'll be 55 points a game to thinking like, wow, you did it again. House. You somehow ended up with a broken down superstar in, in six weeks from all the enthusiasm that we had the beginning of December to this moment.

And we really don't have any choice but to look for the very best return on a trade for Bradley Beal. That's the only thing that makes any sense whatsoever. I mean, I sent you guys this, this, the list of names of guys playing for the Wizards on the basketball court. They could do, TNT could do a whole segment of who he played for with Charles Barkley and just do six Wizards, do an all Wizards version. And Chuck wouldn't get any of them right. So the only thing, I guess, do we give Westbrook any benefit of the doubt here

that this is salvageable for next season? At that point, he will have been in the league for, uh, this is his, he was in the 2008 draft. He's played 887 career games and he has played 106 playoff games. So he is very close to the thousand game mark, which I always felt was dangerous in general. Is there a world in which you just tank this year? You don't trade Beal and you hope you have a healthy Westbrook next year, along with a top five pick. And you, you got a, you have the Israeli kid that you drafted ninth this year, Thomas Bryant coming back from ACL surgery. And could you talk yourself into a world where you don't do anything? Not really.

It feels like unfair to Beal. Like Beal's 26 turning 27. You can't keep wasting these prime year seasons of his. You know, he's there. There's a bunch of stats that came out about his streak of 40 point games.

You know, he has 10 40 point games that are all losses this season. He has 10 40-point games that are all losses this season. He's like 6-19 in his career when he gets to 40 points. The franchise is wasting this talent. The right thing to do is to convert that, take that asset, that

valuable asset, and turn it into something that's a group of assets that you can build on. You can't build around Beal right now group of assets that you can build on. This is not, you can't build around Beal right now with the way that the team is configured. Well, and then the other problem with keeping Beal is he hurts your chances to have the highest possible draft pick.

Now, they've changed the lottery odds a little bit, so you don't necessarily guarantee yourself a top four pick if you have the worst record in the league. But they've done all the groundwork. They're the worst record in the league, but they've done all the groundwork. They're the worst team in the East. And again, I, I apologize to the readers. I really take our over under pick seriously. I like the wizard. I know. Yeah. I forgot. My list. Yeah. Forever. I write texts to you. That's about it.

But I apologize to the listeners. Cause we really liked the the Wiz as, you know, a potential upstart. We figured somebody was going to sneak into that six to eight seed range in the East. We thought it was going to be the Wizards. We didn't expect it to be like the Cleveland Cavaliers or the New York Knicks

or some of these other teams. The Cleveland Cavaliers are nine and nine. They're pretty good. I think kind of legit. Like I, you know, they could be a legit 500 team, especially with Jared Allen. That was incredible. That was a disgrace. All right. So we both agree they should trade Beal. I, I agree with you. It makes the most sense. It's the fair thing to do for him before we go to Bradley Beal trades. because I have a bunch of them to throw at you. Chris Ryan in a text yesterday was saying he didn't understand why Beal was behaving the way he was behaving on the bench,

where he was basically acting like he was in a performance art project trying to seem like the most bummed out guy on the earth. And it is funny. You watch on League Pass, they'll cut, he goes out out and he's really selling how unhappy and drained he is. He's got his wife on Twitter doing these cryptic tweets. And does he need to comment down like about, about 2% here?

Cause I feel like the answer is yes. I mean, part of, of last night was there were so few games on, um, a lot of eyes on Washington playing against the Pelicans and seeing Zion and Beal went off for 24 points in the third quarter. So that was a reason to kind of tune in. But I think, you know, look, he's, he's exhausted and he's frustrated. And he said

after the game that he, he recognized that it was probably not the best look. He said, I probably, I should probably take that down a notch. So, you know, he recognizes it. But he said, you don't want me coming out and laughing and smiling. I'm not happy. We're losing. I don't like losing.

I'm frustrated. Okay, that's all fair. We like Bradley Beal. He's one of my favorite non-Celtics. I like the way he handles his business. I respect how hard he plays. I felt like he could have toned it down 10%, but whatever. I I've never been in a situation like that where, you know, you're just having the season from now. I do feel like he was at least

partly responsible for the Westbrook trade. I don't think they make that trade unless he signs off on it. I just don't. And if anything, I, I had heard that he was kind of pushing for the Westbrook piece, feeling like it might be an upgrade potentially if they, I had heard that he was kind of pushing for the Westbrook piece, feeling like it might be an upgrade potentially if it was the right price, whatever. It was clear Wall was done in Washington anyway, but for anybody to think Beal didn't sign off on that trade when this is the guy they're trying to keep

as a franchise player is laughable. You think he found out in the newspapers that, oh, we've made this trade. We didn't tell Bradley Beal. There's no fucking way. He definitely signed off on that trade. So I'm sure he's kicking himself too that he signed off, right? I don't know.

I mean, he would not have had a unique opportunity to know exactly what Russell's physical condition was. And depending on the message that the team kind of delivered to him, they might not have said to him, it might not have been like a choice like, oh, do you want to participate in the decision-making around keeping John versus not keeping John? If they went to him and said, we're getting rid of John,

and I think, honestly, the franchise reached that conclusion in the summer when he was, there was video of him up in New York city in a room and there was cash and there was like, you know, there looked like there was stuff going on that was kind of out of protocol for sure. Right. Guys all hanging out and it was just sent the wrong. It's a final straw. Yeah.

And I think that's right for Washington. And so they were, they had their antenna up for a final straw. Yeah. And, and I think that's right for Washington. And so they were, they had their antenna up for, uh, trade partners. And I think they went to him and said, you know, uh, we're going to try and bring somebody in. The only guy we can get is Russell. Sure. Nobody else will take John Wall. That makes sense. This is the offer. All right. So we both agree they need to trade Bradley Beal. They need to do it soon. And when we come back,

I'm going to give you a whole bunch of Bradley Beal's trades and you can tell me yes or no. This is a Bradley Beal trade buffet. It's all next. Ooh. This episode is brought to you by Movember.

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That's right, 11. 11? I have 11. That's half the league almost. But we're going to cross off a couple of them right away. Okay, good. First one, Dallas. I'm sorry, but unfortunately,

we all have league pass and we've seen Porzingis. You're not getting Beal with Porzingis as the centerpiece. He just doesn't look the same. KOC and I talked about a little bit on Tuesday's pod. Physically, athletically, doesn't look the same. And I would not trade for him. I would not recommend that one house. That was the calculated risk that Dallas took. Um, God bless them. It, it kind of worked last year. Um, they ushered in, they have this once in a lifetime opportunity with Luca, but this is the downside of that risk proposition. That's all. It's a trade that nobody has won so far. The Knicks got really nothing out of it, other than some picks that might not even mean that much. And the Mavs got a guy who keeps getting injured. And I think he's a better bet to rejuvenate his career down the road than

Westbrook is. And I don't want to write him off, but I'm just saying as a trade asset right now, he's too low, whether he can revive that trade asset. And this we'll see, but it's not there. And it's a non-starter for Washington.

No, thank you. My second team is New Orleans. Okay. I'm interested. I figured you would be. I'm interested. Zion's off the table, right?

What do you mean, right? Yes, he's off the table. Zion's off the table. Is he? He's off the table. Is he? Is he? Is Zion off the table?

Don't be disrespectful. Zion is, is still, you know, we, we, we had this conversation a year ago as he came in into the league. I still harbor the notion that, that he's somebody who can build a franchise around. And I think it will ultimately be close between him and Luca. You left me out of the gym when I said it a year ago, I still think it's possible that, that Zion as a, as a franchise cornerstone could be ultimately as valuable as Luca is going to be for Dallas. I also think he's off the table. I just wanted to have some fun for the last minute

because I know people are listening to this and be like, wait a second, Simmons or trade Zion for a meal. Listen, I is Zion as untradeable as he was a year ago. No, but he's still untradeable. Yes, sure. Okay. Okay. Uh, New Orleans, the path would be just a shitload of their picks a buffet of picks. I don't know what that does for new Orleans though, because they're not close to being a contender. I would rather have the picks. What am I getting adding Bradley Beal to this if I trade you JJ Redick and I trade you Kira Lewis and I get some content Jackson Hayes and then I just give you a bunch of the picks I got for Drew Holiday? I still don't know what that does for me because I'm not winning the title with the team I have. They have an identity crisis and it was not helped by trading holiday and it was not helped by bringing in Stan Van Gundy. So, yeah, we were on that Stan Van Gundy thing early. They have some sorting out to do down there, but they sure do have a lot of picks. So I would be interested. I mean, Lonzo, they have to solve the Lonzo problem at some point.

I think that's been solved. Oh, okay. What's how? solve the Lonzo problem at some point. I think that's been solved. Oh, okay. What's how he might not be good at basketball. I think it's been solved. I think, I think, uh, whatever his trade value is, is that what it was two years ago? Anyway, we'll cross off new Orleans just cause I don't think it's realistic. We're also going to cross off Boston because I don't think you're going to accept my offer of Marcus smart time. Lord Peyton Pritchard, Aaron Neesmith, Romeo Lankford, and a couple of picks.

That's a no, right? You see, I'm giving you the Dikembe finger right now. Not the middle finger, but the Dikembe finger. Yeah. Boston does the middle finger. Now Boston was always a team to watch with Beal because he's so close with Jason Tatum that one of them gave the other COVID a couple of weeks ago, but they're both St. Louis guys. And they were always a team to watch with Beal. I think it's more realistic. The Celtics signed Beal in two years. But, you know, is there a world where it's like if Kemba had been 100% healthy and a whole bunch of picks, could that,

whatever, that's not happening. Uh, next team we're going to cross off, but wanted to mention was Sacramento. I don't know if Beal is happier in Sacramento than he would be in Washington. Sacramento is third from last in the West. There's seven and 10,

but they're only like two games out of the playoffs playoff picture. But basically there's two versions of this. One is like buddy healed Tyrese Halliburton and some picks. I would take that. You would. Oh my Tyrese.

You're putting Tyrese in. I don't know if you know this, but you could have just drafted him ninth. Son of. Look, that was probably. You literally could have just drafted him. That was of... You could have just had him. You literally could have just drafted him. That was the meanest text you sent me in 2021, which is, hey, house,

would you rather just have kept John Wall, drafted Tyrese Halliburton, and kept your 2023 first round pick? Or had it play out the way it played out? Yeah. Danny Avdijan and Russell Westbrook. You picked door A in that scenario. Yeah.

I was wondering if Sacramento wanted to get frisky. Because the other person that's sitting there is Bagley, too, right? They could do Bagley, Halliburton. Bagley's mom wants him to get traded. Bejulika and a bunch of picks. But does Beal stay there? Where are you really going? And why do I want to become Sacramento East?

I mean, let's be honest. If Sacramento flipped out and lost their mind and offered Heald and Halliburton and two unprotected firsts, I think I would have to go to Washington. Conversely, if I'm Sacramento, I'm keeping Buddy Heald and Halliburton. I'm not doing anything.

I'm not even in the Bradley Beal thing. I wanted to mention them, but I think they're out. Next team is Miami. There's a Tyler Hero, Duncan Robinson, Kelly Olenek, Andre Iguodala, some picks. You have Beal. You send back another contract and some sort of giant mega trade. A couple problems. One is heroes not playing well. Second problem is Duncan Robinson is basically 80 million Davis Bertons, but you already have Davis Bertons. Davis.

Davis, sorry. The picks, I don't know what those Miami picks are worth because they're always competitive and it just feels like a lot of fluff. The reason I'm mentioning it is Miami has a way of pulling these dudes out of their ass. They've done an over and over again. Um, they, they're just smart and crafty. Is it, first of all, is it realistic that a Harold Robinson picks and contract for Beal package is even realistic, the Wiz would be dumb enough to do that.

Yes or no? Would it be dumb? If you could be Hero and Precious, who I like quite a bit. So you want Precious in there too? Yeah, I need Precious. It's got to be Hero and Precious and at least one unprotected first round pick.

So flip Precious for Robinson. I'd rather have Precious. Okay. I love Duncan Robinson, by the way. So flip Precious for Robinson. I'd rather have Precious. Okay. I love Duncan Robinson, by the way. Don't, don't, I don't want anybody to misunderstand.

That's not disrespectful to Duncan. I'm just trying to build a team. Here's why I don't think, I think you can do better. I'm going to cross off Miami because I think there's better offers.

Let's go to Philly. Oh. What if Ben Simmons is on the table? I mean, you have to do it. It's a no-brainer. It's a right away. you have to do it it's a no brainer it's a right away you have to do it he's a corner

a franchise cornerstone potential talent at some point something there needs to be a breakthrough with him it seems I'm not writing him off in any way shape or form in terms of his impact on the offensive side of the game.

I think we have an unspecified ceiling when it comes to Ben Simmons. And there is a scenario under which a change of scenery could work for him. The challenge I would have as a Washington guy is I need to believe in the decision-making infrastructure. I need to believe that we're going to build around Ben Simmons. Um, and in a way that, uh, gives him the best chance to be the best version of him. And he also needs to believe it. That would be your other issue. What if he goes to Washington and he's not happy? That's right.

It's like, hey, cool, Ben Simmons, you have your own team. But here's the catch. Your team sucks. And I think, you know, from the body language and stuff that we've seen out of Philly so far, he kind of looks kind of happy to me. I mean, you know. This is why I'm crossing Philly off. I watched that Laker game closely last night.

Yes. Lakers, Sixers. The Sixers, if they win the East, the Lakers are going to be waiting for them in the finals because the Lakers have the best team. They match up pretty well with the Lakers. I agree. And here's one of the reasons they match up pretty well.

Because Ben Simmons might be the only guy in the league who can kind of defend LeBron. I'm not saying he shuts him down. LeBron was 12 for 22 yesterday, 8 for 11 for the free throw line, 34, 6 and 6. But watching the half court at the end of the game, it's like, yeah, you're not just bulldozing over Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons isn't afraid of you.

And he's kind of like, if I'm building somebody in a lab to guard LeBron, I think I would build Ben Simmons. So if I'm Philly, I'm not doing anything. I like my team. I really do. We have Embiid playing the way he's playing. I'm not fucking with this. I'm not bringing in Bradley Beal.

I'm keeping what I have. The only thing that really makes sense for Philly, because it is astounding how quickly all of the commentary and all of the pundits were validated. Philly, you know, with this, the Brett Brown and everything, we barely scratched the surface. In comes Daryl. In comes Doc. surface incomes, Daryl incomes, doc, and immediately 15 games in it's a team that we're talking about legitimately as a title contender. And there, there is not a good counter argument to it, right? They are going to contend as long as those guys are all healthy. So your point is absolutely right. Sit tight. And there are some pieces they could add. I love JJ Reddit going

back to Philly. Think about that. Good relationship with Joe. I mean, another shooter. Adding another shooter to that mix to go with Danny Green and with Seth Curry. I mean, we haven't even really seen Seth Curry. I like their, yeah, and Seth Curry wasn't good yesterday, but I do like their crunch time five. It was Harris, Green, Embiid like their crunch time five. It was Harris green and bead Simmons and Curry.

And you know, they can switch on D Harris. They can kind of hide on whoever the worst guy is, whoever the worst perimeter guy is, unless Curry's out there, then they have to decide who they're going to hide. But I thought that was the most important regular season game I watched this year because that was the first time I watched the Lakers try against a team that wasn't afraid of them. And that actually had matchups in their favor. Like Embiid can score on the Lakers. You know, uh, Simmons, Simmons can not going to, he's going to take out LeBron, but he can slow him down a little bit. And at the end of the game, they ran a really good play and Tobias Harris got a good shot. That's a guy that the Lakers have trouble defending. If Simmons and Embiid

are out there. I don't know. I was, I was impressed. It was impressive. I mean, LeBron tried to hurt Embiid for Christ's sakes. Yeah. First, first flagrant for LeBron in six years. Here's the thing. If you're beating LeBron right now in the regular season, it actually matters because he gives a shit. He's trying. He's trying to win the MVP. And he's going all out in these games. He was going all out in that game last night.

The Sixers beat him. They wanted to prove something. It was their 10-0 on the road. That's their first road loss. And the other thing is they kind of need what Simmons gives them more than they need what Beal gives. Because at the end of the game, I would rather have them go to Embiid because I think he's unstoppable. And Beal gives. Because at the end of the game, I would rather have them go to Embiid because I think he's unstoppable.

And Beal would compliment that great, but I'm getting most of that with, getting 75% of that with Tobias Harris, but I'm not getting the Simmons thing can't be replaced. He gives them a malleability that they would lose immediately. Anyway, I wouldn't do it. These next five trades, I think, are on play.

Okay. First one, Golden State. Charks wrote about this today for the rumor. He did. The Golden State trade. I'm sending him a kiss emoji. I love Jonathan Charks with whether he wrote. It's a simple one. It's Wiseman, Kelly

Oubre's contract, which expires this year, and Minnesota's first pick, which is top three protected this year, unprotected next year, whether Golden State would have to throw anything else in that. I don't know. I, I personally think that's a fucking shitload, um, for Beal. And if you're Golden State, the thinking would be, we have Draymond, Clay, Beal, and Curry, and those are our four guys. And we'll just patchwork around them for the next three, four years. But we're going to contain when Clay's come back, Clay comes back and we're also going to be good this year. Sharks had some

stuff in there about how Wiseman, how he's definitely regressed a little bit as somebody on the court for the words, which I agree with, but I also, he's 19 and he's not somebody that is meant to be playing 35 minutes a game for a really good team yet. I love Wiseman. I feel like if the whiz could pull off Wiseman in that Minnesota pick, that might be enough for me. And my question is if you're going state, do you do that? Because you have Wiseman who has a chance, I think to be an all NBA center. I really think he's going to get there at some point in his career. And you have that mini pick. I, that's the number one team I would want in the going to get there at some point in his career. And you have that mini pick.

That's the number one team I would want in the West to have their first round pick. I have those two assets. I might be able to extend the dynasty anyway. I'm not going to win this year anyway with Clay. Why not? Why do this? Why not wait? Because the window is closing for Golden State.

And they're poised to make the playoffs this year. Like I don't, I, I, you know how I feel about Steph Curry and I, you, you feel the same way. I mean, is there two more years of Steph Curry after this year? I think three minimum he's, I think he's in grade three. I'm talking prime Steph Curry and then he'll have a whole other awesome career when he turns 34. So it makes sense to grab Beal now because of what it creates for next season of what, because of what, when Klay Thompson returns from, from his injury and what your team is and what your team is, that's exactly right. So you've been under the hood with Wiseman and they all love Wiseman, even though like Steve Kerr bencham a couple of days ago, they just love his potential. They think he's a good kid, incredibly gifted, all that stuff.

They're going to mold him over the next couple of years. They'd basically be saying, we don't want to wait anymore. We feel like our windows now. And by the time Wiseman turns into the Wiseman that we want, Steph Curry might not be a superstar anymore. I mean, I think that, that, that would be the calculus. And, and I think it makes sense, honestly. Boy, that's a pretty good haul.

What if the Knicks have four teams left? Don't say no. You got to hear the offer. All right. What if they basically do the James Harden crazy picks and swaps and all that stuff with R.J. Barrett as the centerpiece?

How many picks is it? Let's say you get the seven, the four firsts and the three pick swaps from the Knicks. Well, that's different. Okay. Four firsts from the Knicks. How about three? Let's say three firsts, three pick swaps. You can have 22, 24, 26 and RJ Barrett.

It's close. Here's why it doesn't happen because if you're the knicks why are you getting bradley beal like where are you going i agree with that that part of it is absolutely on the money what's the point for the knicks other than having a uh you know a real nba guy a real all-star they're gonna open up madison square garden you know god god willing NBA guy, a real all-star, they're going to open up Madison Square Garden, you know, God willing, there's going to be vaccines and stuff. The garden could be open in four months, five months if we're lucky, right? The case would be, we need a superstar.

There's none in the free agent class. We can bring him into our culture. Now we're one star away. Almost like when the Celtics got Ray Allen in 2007. Bring him in. It's a chess piece leading to the second chess piece. We have Tibbs. We have, we've hit, we we're rebuilding our culture here. And we go, I personally don't think that one happens. I think golden state's more realistic, but these last three, I think are the most realistic. Uh, Denver has been thrown out a lot a lot on paper it's like Harris

Gary Harris Hampton you throw in and then the big prize Michael Porter Jr. and one first two first whatever it is I'm on the record I gotta say I don't think I would trade Michael Porter Jr. I actually

think he is now untradeable I watched him play the the other night, the game he had 30. He's so fucking exciting. Yeah. He's such a fascinating inside outside guy. And more importantly, he's like the perfect guy with Jokic and Murray. It's the perfect third guy that they can grow into. They got him on a rookie contract. I don't know if I would mess with that. The only way you would do it is if you had some injury history. Now the hilarious thing or not too hilarious, but like the wizards trading for, for Porter jr. And then he has starts having all the medical problems now that he's on the

wizards. Cause that's what the wizards do. They bring, if you have a bad medical history, they suck it out of you. They bring it out of the forefront. Well, Dwight Howard's a butt has miraculously healed.

You know, he arrived in Washington and had a butt problem that kept him out. I don't even think he played three games. So if they just said, no, we'll do Harris, Hampton, Porter Jr. That's it for Beal. What was, what's your answer? We're throwing in no picks. Oh no, I need picks. I got to have picks.

You need, how many picks you need? Two? Yes, at least two. We're building, we're throwing in no picks oh no i need picks i gotta have picks you need how many picks you need two yes at least two we're building we're building i mean you know the only way that porter jr makes sense because you're pairing him with rui hachimura and denny abdia and uh you know detritus davis burton's 80 80 million bucks um i saved 19 for thomas yeah thomas bryant will come back from his acl injury i don't like that trade for either team Bertons, 80 million bucks. I guess Thomas Bryant. Yeah, Thomas Bryant will come back from his ACL injury. I don't like that trade for either team. Yeah.

Also, I don't like that trade as much as Wiseman and the Minnesota pick. I'd rather have. That's my favorite trade so far. That's my A number one as well. I would do that. I would do that. Well, I have two more for you. Okay. I'm listening.

Atlanta. Sneaky, sneaky suitor, right? Sneaky. I don't know if you've seen Deandre Hunter this year, but he's been excellent. Really good second year for him. We wrote a piece about him on the ringer the other day.

Really, really good second year guy. I think he's really like him. He's also 23. He's a man. He's not like one of these 20 year old kids trying to find himself. Like he's pretty much finished product. A's also 23. He's a man. He's not like one of these 20-year-old kids trying to find himself. He's pretty much finished product. A Quangu.

A Quangu. A Quangu. Damn it. My pronunciation dyslexia kicking in again. The guy they took six. The center from USC. Tony Snell's contract. And I'm going to throw in Kevin Herter. Rosilla's favorite player. He's coming home. Hunter's coming home. Herter. A Quangu. And I'm going to throw in Kevin Herter, Rosilla's favorite player. He's coming home.

Hunter, Herter, Okwongu, and I'm going to give you two first round picks. Unprotected first? Sure. I don't, it doesn't feel like enough. So the Atlanta fan listening to this is like, that's too much. I'm not doing that either. So that's probably why that doesn't happen.

Okay, fine. But I do feel like there's some sort of deal with that. If you had Hunter, a Kwongu, some picks, maybe Herter's in it or not, but there is the foundation of something. Because now you have Trae Young, you have Bogdanovich, Gallinari, John Collins, Capella, Bradley Beal. That's actually a team that could be a competitor in these. I really like what Hunter is doing for them though.

I almost wonder if Atlanta would be like, Hey, what if Hunter's not in the trade? And we'll give you whatever else you want. We keep Hunter. You know, what's crazy. It makes more sense to me as Collins. Uh, I know, but he's a free agent though. Well, I mean, you know, you, you can try and work out a deal as part of it. That would be a classic Wizards move to trade for Collins without a deal.

And then he wouldn't. No, I'm saying try and do the deal. It's too late to do the deal though, right? You can't do deals now at this point in the season. Yeah, you can't do that. All right. All right. This leads me to my last team.

The Sons of Phoenix. Okay. I'm listening. Once upon a time, your team made a one for one deal that we called each other about and you had a heart attack. It was Chris Weber for Mitch Richmond. You were very upset as much as Chris Weber frustrated the living hell out of you, you knew how talented he was. And you were getting this shooting guard who was a little, you know, a little long in the tooth, but still a star.

And you just didn't understand what's the point of this. Where are we going with Mitch Richmond? Why did we do this? So I can win 43 games. You were very upset about it. It's another one for one deal for you. Bradley Beal for Devin Booker, straight up. Ooh.

Straight up. No picks from either side. Just a straight-up flip. Yeah. How old's Booker now? Devin Booker, 24 years old. 24. Okay.

Under contract for the next few years. Hasn't played that great this season. They were all fired up for him to be the focal point of a contender. He's been a little up and down. Suns fans getting a little... Their sphincters are starting to tighten between that. Monte Williams is doing some weird rotation stuff. They're not happy about that.

They feel like they have a lot of talent. And it hasn't quite come together yet. Now, Booker has missed the last couple games, but this year he's averaging, he's down to 22.9 points a game. 34% from three, 47% field goal. But it hasn't been like the lights out top 15. Like we expected a Jalen Brown type leap from him this year.

It didn't happen. The Suns say, well, we'll bring in Bradley Beal. Like he's actually probably better right now at this stage of his career than Booker is. And you get a foundational guy you can build around the next few years. This is my favorite one. Beal for Booker, straight up.

Call it into the fucking league. I don't like it. Why? Because it's the exact same situation that washington is is in right this second as we're having this conversation um and there's no rebuild for you and you that doesn't help with your picks right exactly the point is the rebuild if you're going to trade beal then you have to have something to to build build upon. I don't want to stay, you know, treading water, um, in, in the position we're in now, which is we're only, uh, four and a half games back of

the eight seed or whatever it is. The, the 10 seed is still out there. So we could, you know, uh, if a week, if whenever everybody gets over the COVID and gets, you know, back to health and Russell is gets the rest that he needs, we're going to compete for the COVID and gets, you know, back to health and Russell is gets the rest that he needs, we're going to compete for the, for the, you know, the play in thing that doesn't make any sense, right?

That's just not a viable path in terms of a return for a player of Beal stature. If you're going to do that, if that's the goal, ultimately, then just keep Beal. All right. So we'll settle on a three-team trade.

All right. Beal goes to Phoenix. Booker goes to Golden State. Washington gets Wiseman, Oubre, Minnesota's first pick, and a 2022 first. Great. I'm in. That's it.

That's your trade. We finally landed on one. Well Great. I'm in. That's it. That's your trade. We finally landed on one. Well, because I get that. I want that Golden State package. That, to me, is the most enticing package. Yes, yes, because that's going to be extremely valuable first-round pick. It's going to be a great player as long as the gurus in the draft room

do the diligence properly. And Wiseman, I think, has unlimited ceiling. I was trying to think of it. We've known each other a long time. We've known each other since 1988. And during almost all of those years, you've been a disgruntled Wizards fan.

I was trying to think of it. What package would I be the happiest for you if you got the package? And I think it's the Golden State package. It solves a bunch of shit for you. I love Wiseman. Me too. It allows you to fully tank this year and you get that mini pick and you have some real assets. You have two legitimate assets and you bottom out. You could really honestly bottom out next year too. All right. So we vote for either the Golden State package or a three-teamer. Beal goes to Phoenix.

Booker goes to Golden State. Booker going to Golden State would be fun. That would be fun. Then Booker chip on his shoulder. Phoenix gave up on him. Some Chris Paul, Booker tension. Right. That'd be lovely.

I love every aspect of it. All right. This was great. I'm glad we figured this out. You can listen to house fairway. Wrong. Came back this week. Yeah.

Our season premiere. Uh, they're off at Torrey pines this week, and then we're going to get back on next week and get ready for a trip up to pebble beach. And then ringer NFL with you and sharp every Friday through the season. And once that ends, then you're going to start popping on here more.

We, we can only use so much house houses. He's got a job. He's got a family. We can, we can only tap into the house machine that much. We haven't really started talking about the 2021 food menu. I mean, there's, there's some eating. We have a lot of pent up demand because of all that we had to put and put

behind us in 2020 out of safety concerns. So, I mean, let mean, let's get ready. Rev it up. House, it was great to see you. Good luck with your Bradley Beal trades. I will talk to you soon. Thanks, buddy. Life and death were two very realistic

coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was. Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions. Just taking that first step makes a big difference. It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning.

Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit CAMH.ca. Take back your free time with PC Express Online Grocery Delivery and Pickup. Score in-store promos, PC Optimum points, and more free time. And still get groceries. Shop now at pcexpress.ca. All right, we're taping this piece of the podcast. It is 1015 a.m. Pacific time. So if anything

happens over the next few hours after we tape this, don't blame us. Andrew Ross Sorkin is here. You know, I'm from New York times, you know, I'm from CNBC, even though I'm from the billions at the top of the top of the credits and that cool opening shot in New York city, all that stuff. We've been looking for a reason for you to come on. And this is a good reason. Wall Street is in complete chaos right now. Well, I'm psyched to see you. Thank you for having me. It is chaos.

I've never seen anything like this. Anything. Could you say that the seeds were here for something like this to happen for a while? Because I was thinking about it. Even when Barstool got bought by Penn National and Dave Portnoy was talking about buy Penn National stock and you could see the Penn National stock rise, that there was this

version of Wall Street where the more and more kind of middle class investors trickle in, they could affect the market in these crazy ways. And now we're seeing it this week. Look, I think the seeds of this actually began over 10 years ago. I think this is a this is we are still in the aftermath of the financial crisis, to be honest with you. I think this actually stems from that. I think this is started at least with a group of people who have been rightly angry about the banks, about the system, and I think really did say to themselves, I want to stick it to the man. And I think we're at a point now, COVID's part of it. I think a lot of people are stuck at home. They got not a lot to do. Some of them actually have more money than you think. You probably can't say that

aloud these days, but I think there are people doing frankly better than some people even expect. And this is sort of partial entertainment for them and partial stick it to the man. And that's what I think. That's how I think it began. I think it has now gone into something parabolically crazy, which is like every good protest. There are there are co-op people who co-op the protest. The looters arrive. And now I think you have all sorts of people trying to surf the wave of momentum on top. I think you have professionals that have now gotten involved that are jumping on top of these people. So there's a lot to unpack here. So do you feel like

basically Wall Street was not designed to accommodate what's happening right now? There's no solve for it that when we have more and more investors, even if they're investing smaller amounts, but they're combining their forces and they're targeting certain things that are all jumping in. Wall Street basically can't sustain this. Wall Street doesn't know how to do it. Wall Street was not built for this, except for the fact that in many ways, this is what Wall Street has been doing itself for so long. Right. That's the that's part of the argument here. Part of the argument is that I think if those those folks who are backing GameStop are saying, look, these hedge fund guys have been having idea dinners for years.

They've sat around a table. They've found their mark and they've gone after it. And we're just doing the same thing. And basically we're doing it, by the way, out in the open. Right. And so that is the distinction. Now, the flip side of that is most of these hedge fund managers doing this, if they lose. They're fine. You know, you know, they can still pay the mortgage on their second and third home. And so the question is whether some of these folks that are trying to stick it to the man are ultimately going to be sticking it to themselves. Do you feel how, if you had to break it down, because I love the stick it to the man part of this. I actually think this has been really enjoyable to watch these, these Wall Street

people who have played by certain rules and when it doesn't work out for them, they get bailed out, all these different things that have happened over the years. And now they're up in arms because somebody has flipped the system on them. I think that's really, really funny. I'm not sure if that's 100% how this started, though. It really did seem like it started because people felt like,

hey, if we all team up and we go after a certain thing, not only can we raise the stock way, way up and we'll profit from it, but there's this other fun piece where we'll screw over these people that are trying to short the stock. So it started there. And I got to say, that's a pretty genuine start. It certainly wasn't against the rules, whatever the rules were in place at the time. Now they're going to change the rules, it seems like. Well, the question is whether the rules should change. I mean, look, one of the things that's fascinating is, and look, part of my job has always been to democratize this process,

right, by bringing information to the public. And we all talk about the market being this or wanting to be a level playing field. And I got in trouble for saying this. The truth is it's never truly been a level playing field. It's always been tilted towards the professional investor, towards the wealthy investor. In fact, the SEC has a phrase for it. There are people who are called accredited investors who are allowed to take risks that, frankly, regular Joe hasn't been allowed to take over the years. And that's been because the argument has been you don't want those people to lose because they can't afford to lose in the same way. Now, by the way, I say those things,

and I've been out publicly all over Twitter with this, trying to frankly protect some of the folks who I think may not fully understand that they could lose their rent money. And people are like, Sorkin, what are you doing? You're protecting the hedge fund guys by saying this. We need to have the same opportunity. And I'm sort of grappling with all this myself because I'm not here to protect the hedge funds of the system, but I do want to protect the little guy. And what I can't figure out is some of these little guys

are making a fortune, but when this is over, it's going to end in tears for others, you know? Right. Well, and I think their attitude would be like, well, these people are trying to short the stocks. That's basically like betting the don't, the don't come line in poker. Right. You know, where you're, you're betting, you're betting against everyone else at the table, which is just, you know, that, that, that comes with his own stuff. I've never really liked the shorting aspect of wall street. So in

general, the fact that some of the people who are trying to do this, it flipped on them. I do kind of enjoy that, but when you see how it's flipped and you're seeing hedge funds basically getting destroyed or having to get bailed out, then it's like, has this gone too far? Well, so I have mixed views on shorting. I told look, no, I think the idea of betting against somebody, it's not in my nature. It's not something I don't like it, right? Me neither. I don't like it. However, and maybe I've been covering this world too long. I have seen how some short sellers have created transparency in the market, meaning people like Jim Chanos discovered

Enron, right? He had an incentive to tell the world about Enron before Enron. There were others who came and exposed Lehman Brothers before Lehman Brothers, and they were incented to do that. And so there's part of me that says, if you like transparency, if you like the idea of more information rather than less, it may actually act as a safeguard in a very perverse way on the system. And so I wrestle with it. I don't know where I land. Yeah, I don't know where I land either. I just feel it feels the spirit of it I don't like. And it's the same way like playing craps when there's that one dude there and you're just like, what are you doing? You're rooting against all of us. And the concept of rooting

for a company to fail or for their fortunes to turn. I don't know. It doesn't seem right with me. It does seem like a lot of what's going on here as this became a real story over the last couple of days. And then we had Robinhood basically freeze all the trades today and all that stuff. And now this has turned into a common man against the big, bad Wall Street, big, evil Wall Street, all that stuff. That's the narrative that's happening now. I was surprised that Robinhood caved so fast because the whole concept of what they were doing

was like, we're taking trading from people. That was the idea. Yeah, now they've completely flipped on that. Um, and you can, if you're giving them credit on it, you could say, well, look, they're just trying to protect the integrity of whatever. But the cynical side of me says they're trying to get bought. You know, they know they have an IPO coming. A lot of the people that would potentially be carrying that IPO are people that don't want to piss off right now. And they're thinking that way and not for what's for the good of the stock market. I don't know who's going to buy them on Wall Street. And invariably, I imagine somebody might, but I think going public is part of it. I think the public piece is the key.

I think what they're really worried about is what a regulator is going to do. A regulator is going to come down on them in some way that would therefore make them less valuable in an IPO or selling or whatnot. But the other thing about the stick it to the man idea is, you know, I think this did start with a stick it to the man idea. But as I said, I think there's people who are coming in over the top in a way that are cloaking themselves as Mother Teresa, but are involved in the same classic pump and dump that we've seen for decades.

And so being able to differentiate between who the genuine protester is and who the co-opter of the protest is hard. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like at least a small piece of this has to be some of the stories that have been written the last few months about the pandemic that has actually made people even more wealthy who invest in certain companies and who were kind of savvy enough in March, April, May of last year to think, oh, this is the way life's going to be. I'm going to invest in Netflix.

I'm going to invest in these drug companies. I'm going to do this, this, or this. And kind of foreseeing where stuff might be going, jumped in or invest in Zoom. That's another example. Zoom goes way up. And the people that did this, they're profiting from the pandemic. And meanwhile, millions of people are losing jobs or losing money, stuff like that. And there's a real anger about this, right? Oh, I think there's a pent up anger because everyone's saying to themselves, how is it possible that Jeff Bezos is getting this rich while other people, you know, are on food

lines? There's no question that that's a huge component of just the anger. And part of it's a missing out, right? There's a little bit of like, and by the way, it was not obvious in March that, you know, Amazon would go to the sky, or frankly, Tesla would go to the moon. Like that was not obvious to a lot of people. And some professional investors nailed that bet. Some retail investors nailed that bet. By the way, the other piece of it is Bitcoin. We didn't even talk about that, which is a lot of the folks who were early in this GameStop deal were successful Bitcoin traders. And so they had a lot of money to spare because they got in a long time ago. And that's

obviously also gone on this crazy run. And that is in and of itself a sort of philosophical, almost religious bet because it's not – it's divorced from anything in reality, right? It's a belief system. And in a sort of perverse way, GameStop to some degree became this sort of belief system for certain people. Do you feel like Wall Street is the wild, wild west right now? I think it's out of control. I do. I do. Has it ever been this chaotic?

Ever? Oh, I'm sure. No, yes. Yes. I mean, look, I remember covering this world in the late 90s during the dot-com stuff. Some of that was absolute lunacy. The amount of truly despicable behavior, bad behavior, the insider trading that was going on, the doling out the IPOs to favored clients to get the other deal was going on. The analysts who were pumping stocks because they

were basically paid to pump the stocks. There was a lot of bad stuff that's happened before. And I think over time, it's actually gotten cleaner. It's a cleaner game than it used to be. But arguably, look, I could clean it. I give you a 10-point plan to clean it up if you want. But I think there's just – part of what's happening is there's more froth. There's more money in the game. And so people are just doing crazy stuff. And that's the other

question. Is this a sign? You know, say what you will about GameStop. Is this a sign that there's just too much money in the system that the Fed has basically, you know, just just plastered the world with cash? And by the way, that's helping the people with money and not helping those without it. I mean, I don't know if you saw Tom Friedman had this great column. He was basically like socialism for the rich, capitalism for everybody else.

And that's a function of the Fed, right? Just printing cash. So do you feel like at least part of this is a reaction to everything that happened in 2007, 2008, 2009. And also like, you know, movies like the big short and, and the fact that as it was happening, I don't think people understood it, but as we got some distance, people were like, Holy shit, how did that happen? Wait a second.

We did what? Um, and now it's manifesting itself now in 2021. in Washington, the sort of anger that you've seen online, the way people have sort of grouped together to form sort of online mobs. That's sort of a fresh take or thing that's happened in the culture. Look, there were always these chat boards that existed. I remember back in the dot-com boom, there were people on chat boards pumping stocks. But to be able to do it en masse like this, that's next level. Well, I would go the other way. It's kind of surprising this didn't happen sooner, right? Like, why did it take till 2021 for a bunch of people to realize we should leverage a Reddit board and we could just jump into a certain stock and try to pump it up and we'll

all make money? That should have happened three years ago. Yeah, but part of it's that money's free now, right? With the Fed printing all this money, all these guys, a lot of people are just levered up and it's cheap. It's cheap to do it. Look, it costs, as of yesterday, $22 billion effectively to move this stock the way it did, right? The early movements cost a couple billion dollars. And so you could get a group together. But at this level, it's now in a whole new universe.

That's hard. It's hard. It would be hard to do this for, like an apple. You'd need $2 trillion to move it, right? Right. So it's got to be smaller stocks. Like Blockbuster was one of them.

These stocks that, like, why would anybody put any money into them? But it's also like a little bit of like a nostalgia game. If you go on Reddit and you really spend some time in there, there are people who really just love GameStop. Like they grew up with GameStop. Right. GameStop isn't doing well and they want to support GameStop.

Bed, Bath & Beyond. How many of us grew up, you know, I used to walk with my mother through Bed Bath & Beyond, the vaporizer section, right? And people have a certain nostalgia for it. Blockbuster, AMC Theaters, we all want to go to the movies. But the other question is, you know, we look at these people who are doing this, and some of them are very sophisticated, but some of them aren't. And one of the things that I was just thinking about when I said AMC theaters, one of the other stocks that went up yesterday was AMC networks, the TV, the TV company, you know, better call

Saul. Yeah. And that just shows to me that we have, unfortunately, as much as we've democratized the system, maybe have we over democratized it? This is the part I don't know. And it sucks to be like either of us or anybody saying to the to the listener or to the viewer or the reader, like you're not smart enough to be able to do this. I hate that message because that's that's that's like the worst message possible. But at the same time, I'm also like watching people make what seem like obvious mistakes to me. And I think, what am I supposed to do? And I also remember the media was killed after the financial crisis. The finger was pointed straight at the media. Why did you not blow the whistle? Why didn't you blow it loud enough? Now you try to blow the whistle and

they're like, we don't need your protection. And by the way, you're not even protecting us. You're protecting the establishment. Right. But there's a way to not be on either side in this story. Right. I mean, I feel like I'm more on the Robin hood side just because I feel like wall street's gotten away with so much shit over the years. It's been fun to watch the tables get turned on them. But I guess the fear would be, this has now created a model for groups of people that could just target certain stocks. How do you police that? You could go into the boards, you could see what they're talking about and maybe try to get proactive, but then that's not Wall Street anymore. And everything that it's built on, which leads me to the next question.

Maybe it's a good thing that we kind of blow up Wall Street a little bit and start over because I'm not sure it works. Look, this system needs to be reformed. I can give you 100 laws that I would change. And what this could do, actually, is make it a lot harder and change the incentive system for hedge funds to short companies, right? If you're a hedge fund looking at a small company, and by the way, it's usually the small companies that you short in large part because you think that they're close to failing. Though there's some people obviously shorting Tesla, which is at a different level, but the calculus may change. If some hedge funds thinking, I'm going to go short this company, they may say to themselves, I'm not going to do it because there's a whole fund's thinking, I'm going to go short this company, they may say to themselves,

I'm not going to do it because there's a whole new risk profile. I never had to worry about these guys going to Reddit and taking me down. Now I do. I kind of like that though. Because again, I don't like the shorters. I think that might be a good outcome of this. It very well may.

But it actually may change the incentive system. I also, frankly, hope that regulators do step in and try. I mean, I think there's so many questions about whether the market is fair. And I know that I think there's so many elements of it that aren't. People look at high-frequency trading and say to themselves, well, that's a game. If that's a game, why can't we play this game? So should we end that? I don't know. Maybe this comes to questions about whether you want to have a transaction tax on things. What do you do about insider trading and these CEOs who create these, quote unquote, 10B5 plans where they're buying and selling shares in advance, but then they can stop it anytime they want?

That makes no sense. I mean, there's lots of pieces of this puzzle that need to be fixed. And this could be the catalyst that forces some of it. We, the transaction tax is interesting because that reminds me a little bit of what happened with baseball the last few years when, uh, the man, the smarter managers were just making a shitload of bullpen moves. Right. And they would bring in a, they'd use 12 pitchers in a game. They would bring in a lefty just to pitch to one batter, be another five minute break. Then the guy would have to warm up. Then the next guy goes in. And at some point, everybody was like, all right, this sucks. You guys are ruining baseball. And they tweaked the rules so that every pitcher had to pitch to at least three batters to try to stem some of the

tide. Maybe, maybe that's one of the outcomes that could happen from this down the road is like you can only make so many transactions a day. You can't, the volatility of going, why do you get this power but the person on Robinhood doesn't? Well, look, I think that's a possibility. You tax the transactions.

It would totally lower the whole high-frequency trading game. I don't want to say it would disappear. Now, look, there are benefits, arguably, to high-frequency trading in terms of what's called liquidity, lowering effectively the price for everybody. I think there's some truth to that, but you could probably slow it down. I think you're going to see, by the way, even in the larger scheme of taxes in America with the new president, President Biden, make capital gains rate taxes for individuals the same as income taxes for people over a certain number. That would change a lot because it would disincentivize all the trading because it would cost too much money. So I think

there's lots of things that you're going to start to see and bubble up in the conversation. And I think we'll be talking about this for a very, very long time. Well, this is not a one day story. No, I agree. That's why I wanted to have you on. I feel like this is as Gladwell would say a tipping point. It feels like things are going to be different from this week on. And I wonder like, all right, let's say they decide to target a new stock tomorrow, right, on Robinhood or wherever else on one of the Reddit threads. And Wall Street can see that on the boards ahead of time, the feds.

And could they just proactively jump in before people start buying the stock and freeze that company? What does that mean? We've never had situations like that before in this country. But that might actually be how this plays out. Totally. And then the question is, who are they protecting? Are they protecting the establishment in the system or are they protecting the little guy? And I think that's the real question. You know, today it is almost impossible if you're on a Robinhood app or any of these other systems to buy some of these shares. They'll let you close out your share right now. They won't let you buy.

And who are they protecting? I mean, that is actually the question. Who is being protected here? And I can see it both ways. And I don't even know what to think. I think it's almost unfair that an individual who wants to trade can't. But I also know that when, you know, when this is all over, when the shit has totally hit the fan and people do lose money,

you know, speculators never blame themselves either. So there'll be a lot of finger pointing. So we had insider trading in the late 80s. Yep. They spent the next 20 plus years cleaning that up. I was just reading a story the other day about trading. It's not even clean yet. Yeah, it's not even cleaned up.

But I read a story the other day about trading places and explaining what happened with the orange juice scene at the end with Eddie Murphy, Dan Aykroyd, what they did. And I didn't even realize that in 2010, they passed the Eddie Murphy rule, preventing people in real life from doing kind of what Eddie Murphy, Dan Aykroy real life from doing kind of what Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd do at the end of that movie. So the insider trading thing, it's gone on and on forever.

You saw what happened in the late 2000s and all that stuff. And it feels like this is the next sequence in whatever this legacy is. But it has more to do with America and the world and the, the ability to bring people together with some sort of specific target. I mean, we, we saw the worst version of this on January 6th, but people finding common ground on a message board, on a website somewhere and deciding let's go do this and to watch them do this to the stock market, I think has been riveting. I haven't been disriveted by a financial story literally since the late 2000s. As a storyteller, I'll tell you it's great.

I don't know if it's great for the world or not, but by the way, it may be great for the world in the end because it could, as you just said, it could change things. I'm sort of just fascinated by the whole thing and what it means for the future of the whole system and whether the system unto itself remains. Does it break? Does it turn into something else? By the way, are these investors here to stay? Is this going to become like a thing that just happens all the time? And what are all of these platforms going to do about it?

Meaning, you know, is Reddit now going to have a problem in the same way that you had, you know, Trump thrown off of Facebook and Twitter and certain people for different kinds of speech are the platforms going to say, no, no, we don't want to have that kind of conversation on our platform. I will bet you, you know, a lot of money, there will be conversations about what the platforms are allowing to have happen. What kind of speech should happen on those platforms? Well, it went unregulated for 20 plus years, the internet. And now it's starting to resemble America in a lot of ways where we're trying to regulate things that we weren't supposed

to be regulated. You know, like the, the country that we had initially, you were, you were supposed to be allowed to exchange free ideas with other people. And, you know, I, I just don't know where this goes. I, I'm really, uh, I'm really nervous about it. It's all being done out in the open. That's the important part right now. You know, the thing that makes me a little nervous is you go on Reddit and or on some of these other sites, and they're talking about setting up little little rooms, you know, on Telegram, on WhatsApp, other places. That's, by the way, much more like old school Wall Street in many ways, right? That's the backroom. That's the backroom chatter on Wall Street. And but now they Everybody can trade with us.

You don't need to have a lot of money. They literally named themselves Robinhood. It feels like this is unrecoverable for them. I don't know. Look, I think the issue is that basically all of these brokers, these online brokers, have basically done the same thing, right? So there is sort of a leveling effect. And I think that Robin could say, hey, we're doing what everybody else is doing. I bet when the story

is ultimately told that these guys all got phone calls from the SEC or somebody saying, you got to do something. And will that be persuasive to people? Maybe not. By the way, maybe this is going to create new Robin Hoods that live in some kind of blockchain world that are totally unregulated. I don't know. I don't know how that would work, but that's part of the issue. We have a stock market that is regulated and we have an online world that isn't. At all. And I don't know enough. I've had a couple of people in my life, you got to get in a blockchain. To me, it's in, I, I don't know enough. I've had a couple of people in my life that you got to get in a blockchain. I just, to me, it's in outer space. I don't understand it. And

like last month that went way up and people were excited that had it and the Bitcoin. Um, and I just don't get it. And I also don't understand how it's not regulated at all. And basically it comes down to, do you have a password? But some people, and I have some smart people in my life who fucking swear by it. And they're like, this is the next thing. This is going to replace everything. And where do you stand on Bitcoin? Oh man, I've been back and forth. You know, so many smart people I know starting back in 2000, I'm an idiot because I didn't buy any. 2011, 12, we're telling you, you should put 1% of your net worth in this thing and let it ride because one day it could be

worth half a million dollars of Bitcoin. And by the way, it's now $30,000 of Bitcoin. I don't know. I've always worried that, not worried for Bitcoin per se, but I've always thought that when if Bitcoin ever got to escape velocity. Right. This idea that it's actually going to become like a competing currency with the dollar or something that the U.S. government would be like, hell no, we're not allowing this at some point. And you've heard Janet Yellen, who's now the new Treasury secretary, say that she's worried about it being used by criminals. Gary Gensler, who's going to be the new head of the SEC, he used to teach about crypto at MIT. I don't really know where he lands on this, but if it ever really gets to a sort of escape velocity place, I think there are going to be some very interesting conversations in Washington about what to do about it that could totally just take it down a notch in a minute. And that's part of the risk. I swear this isn't a let's pile on Trump question.

Yeah, but the last four years when we had like incredible upheaval in his cabinet and we had a president like any president we've ever had for 100 different reasons. Is it possible that there's some ramifications from it possible that there's some ramifications from that now, that there was some stuff that maybe should have been regulated in certain ways that just wasn't over the last couple of years, because, you know, we had a president that frankly didn't have the best possible people working for him. I'm not saying Biden's going to have the best possible people working now, but I just don't feel like Trump had, you know, his eye on the prize

for like the good of the country with some of this stuff. Look, Trump's, Trump, to the extent Trump had an eye on a prize, his prize was economic growth at all costs. Yes. All the quote unquote regulators that were in the job were told

the mandate is economic growth. The mandate is very low unemployment numbers. We're not trying to regulate these businesses. I don't want you going out there trying to make your name, you know, being the great prosecutor of insider trading. That's not the goal. So I think that the whole incentive system for anybody who was a quote unquote regulator during that period, success was measured by how fast the economy grew. Yeah. It wasn't, it was a totally different operation.

That was it. If you were considered the policeman or the chief of police for Wall Street, that would get you no credit inside that administration. I think that's about to change. It seemed like short-term immediacy was all that mattered. How do we look right now, not thinking any sort of big picture stuff? If you had to make one prediction for the next six months with this story, what would it be?

It would be that we're going to see a much bigger company become a target of this. Interesting. With a much bigger company become a target of this. Interesting. With a much bigger... Just this morning, by the way, American Airlines was a mini target of it because there was, quote unquote, short interest, meaning people betting against it.

So people started to push that up just for fun. And you could see it slightly trying to break through. American Airlines, not by the way, the biggest company in the world these days given COVID. that up just for fun. And you could see it. It's slightly trying to break through, right? American Airlines, not by the way, the biggest company in the world these days given COVID, but I think you're going to start seeing potentially bigger names become the target. We'll see. So when they blow up the stock for something like American Airlines, technically, is that bad for American Airlines? No. By the way, that's the thing I don't know if everybody appreciates. Like BlackRock and Vanguard are making a fortune because they're usually the biggest investors in any of these companies. By the way, the CEO of GameStop, if he sold't sell right now because if you sell, you will be sued for the rest of your life for stock manipulation. But, yeah, it's not exactly like a Robin Hood like experience here because the rich are getting richer.

Except for the shorters. Even the even the quote unquote losers. You know, I'm not going to cry for them. But if you think about the hedge funds, the hedge funds manage pension money. That's what they do. So when they lose, it's not like, you know, it's all just, you know, the richie rich, some of the richie rich, but it's so much more complicated. this whole thing right now? Would he be aligned with the Robin Hood Reddit people? Or would he be on the side of the people that had shorted GameStop and were now scrambling and vowing revenge? Oh, God.

I don't know. Ask Brian Koppelman. I feel like he would have been on the shorting side, just flipping out, breaking stuff in his office. He'd probably be, but he might also want to be with the guy, you know, sort of be, he's sort of an anti-establishment guy,

but maybe he would be trying to take advantage of this whole thing, probably. Right. Maybe he owns, he secretly owns Robinhood. Who knows? All right. So this is going to be complete chaos for the next few months is your prediction. I think so. This is not over. This is not over.

Let's have this conversation again. Yeah, absolutely. Andrew Sorkin, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. What's the feeling of fall? It's finally catching the sunrise.

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See Pennzoil.ca slash warranty for full details. All right, Jamal Adams is here. I don't talk about this a lot. I'm not especially proud of it as a diehard Boston guy and a huge Patriots fan, but my son loves you and actually made me buy Jamal Adams Jets jersey seven, eight months ago before. And you had it for two months and then you got traded, which I thought, I thought he deserved it because we're a Patriots house and he has Patriots jerseys,

but you were the one non-Patriot that he loved. He plays safety on his flag football team in Madden. He loved you. And then you get traded from the Jets. So he still has a jersey, but it's a little weird now. Anyway, we've accepted you in our house. Congratulations on that as a non-Patriot. Do you find with little kids and teenagers that you resonate with them in a unique way? Because for some reason it's happened with my son and his friends. Man, that's what it's about for me, man. I was once that kid, you know what I mean? And I always knew who I wanted to be.

If I had a chance to make it to my dream and be one of the top guys in the league, one of the superstars, whatever you want to call it. I always told myself I will never turn down a kid when it comes to inspiring him, when it comes to signing an autograph, because I was in those shoes. Yeah. So I always told myself I would never treat the people who really support me and who I inspire in a negative way, because I know what that feeling is like when you get turned down. So I appreciate that, man. That makes my day because it's a reason I love what I do. And that is part of the reason is to inspire people around me. So I love that, man. So tell your son, man, I appreciate it. Well, you've inherited, there's this unofficial title. It's like a championship belt of the cool safety where it's like,

when I was growing up, it was Ronnie lot. Right. When I was in a college and, you know, at some point last decade, it became Ed Reed and we, there's always the one guy.

And then as Ed Reed started to get old, yeah, there was like a whiff of Earl Thomas, but it never really caught on. And then you just plowed in there and then you became the guy you've only been in the league for a couple of years. But I remember in that draft, I barely followed college football. And it's so obvious sometimes who's going to be a good pro the way they're talking about the guys and they always go five, six picks later than they should. And with you, it's like, can't miss. He's going to be a multi-time all pro. This guy is a transformative defensive player. And you're watching going, well, why

wouldn't he be like one of the top three picks? So you fall to like six or seven. I can't remember, but you have filled that void. Who were your role models when, uh, when you were coming to the league, who was the guy you wanted to be? Well, you know, for me, man, growing up, you know, obviously due to my father, his, his his his short career that he had um due to injury um you know he taught me a lot as far as the game of football he taught me the basic fundamentals and then when I started to really understand football there were certain people football players should I say that I looked up to it wasn't just necessarily the defense I looked up to so many guys around the league you know offense defense

whatever it was but guys that stick up into my mind are obviously the brian dawkins the troy palomaro's the bob sanders the sean taylors yeah the ryan clarks the i mean the list goes on and on and then you go to offense you go to willis mcgahee you go uh jerry rice you go uh um i'm losing some train of thought right now. Hey, man, all of the greats that are just doing the right things just to be great. You know what I mean? And that's what I was so inspired by was the guys that worked their tail off each and every day. And they worked hard for everything they had.

And they're consistent. That's what i looked up to man and all of those guys that that i named and there's there's many more uh man i i just i appreciate the game more more than anything because for me it wasn't about being like somebody it was more so like what can i take from their game to add to my games where i create this so-called quote unquote creative player. Right. Right. So that's what I was shooting for. One thing that's, that's funny about you considering one of the reasons you came on this podcast, cause you're promoting Madden.

You're a really fun guy to play Madden with. And I play with my son a lot, but on defense, the most fun people to play on Madden are always some sort of safety that can fly around or some sort of like LT, like linebacker where you're just trying to beat the snap and try to sack the quarterback. But the safety is always a guy. So my son really loved Brian Dawkins, too. And they had, I think it was a football life. They had an episode about Brian Dawkins and about his career. And, you know, one of the things that struck me watching it was when he played safety

versus how the rules have changed the last nine, ten years. And you go back and you see the hits Dawkins, you see the Sean Taylor hits, you go way back and see the Jack Tatum hits and stuff like that. Your era is like, there's a degree of difficulty with the

hits. You want to be this hard hitting safety, but you also can't do some of the stuff they could do in some of these old videos. What is it? What is it like when you watch those videos and you see some of those hits? And see, that's what I grew up watching. Right. You know what I mean? So that's what I tried to emulate. I tried to do those things while I was in Pop Warner, while I was in high school, whatever the case is, I was doing those things. And so when I get to the league, I did have to not necessarily adjust my game, but just have to make the proper techniques. I had to get better at being fundamentally sound while tackling, right? So when I do have my strikes, when I do want to take those big hits, should you say, you have to just lower your center of gravity

and keep your head up and you can't hit them in the head. But where the game is going right now, it's really ticky-tack. And, you know, it's it's hard man i will say you know for for being a guy and aggressive guy you know always trying to set the tone no matter what it's a tough it's a tough way to play the game because majority of time as defenders we're guarding ourself or regard we're doing something out of the ordinary when we are tackling just to avoid someone's helmet you You know what I mean?

So that's the tough part because you're putting yourself at risk, but not only that, you don't want to get a fine or you don't want to get tossed out the game, God forbid. So you're at a really lose-lose situation with that. So you just got to be fundamentally sound, and I think that's what I pride myself on, man, is just the fundamentals and the technique, staying consistent at that in everyday life because that's what it's about.

That's what it's about when it comes to being great or when it comes to being successful. I do feel like they should review some of these hits sometimes because sometimes the defender will get called for the helmet to helmet. And they show the replay. And at the last second, the guy with the ball dips his head or goes down as the person's already launched, the defender. And then it's like, that was Helmut Thelma. You even saw it on the Sorensen play when he saved a touchdown against the Browns

and Higgins fumbled the ball out of bounds. I mean, into the end zone. And then they review and it's like, oh my God, that was Helmut Thelma. And I'm like, was it? Like, he's just trying to stop a touchdown. He threw his body toward the, I don't think there was any deliberate intent at all. And don't really know the line where the lines are with some of

this stuff but they trust me i watch football 11 hours every sunday they have a lot of trouble regulating where those lines are i'm sure it's confusing for you too yes it's tough man and it's frustrating at times especially when it's in a a big game a crucial moment, right? And you get hit with a late flag and you're just trying to make a play on the ball or whatever the case may be. And then, boom, you just switch the whole game. The whole momentum went from the Seattle Seahawks to the Green Bay Packers, you know what I mean? Or whoever we're playing. So it's tough, man. It's an offensive league, but as defenders, we know that. And we just have to adjust and get better at our game.

And that's what makes this game of football that much more special. You know what I mean? One thing that hurt you, because one of the things that you're really great at is when you get sneaky and you come up the line and all of a sudden you're chasing the quarterback, especially if it's from

the blind side. You're going at the QB, but there's rules with how you can even approach the QB. You can't launch. If he just got rid of the ball a split second, you have to somehow hold off as you're going full speed. In the back of your mind, you're like, I want to sack this guy. But if you were playing 30 years ago, you're like, I'm taking this guy down.

This is a free shot. And now it's a little different. So how do you handle that? Yeah, definitely, man. I think that when I am approaching quarterbacks or whoever, I'm all about the ball. I'm trying to get the ball, if anything, right? So if you get the ball out, you still get the sack plus the fumble. That's what makes it great. So no matter if he's on the ground or not, it's still going to be a sack. So why not get the sack plus the fumble that's what makes it great so no matter if he's on the

ground or not it's still gonna be a sack so why not get the ball why not get the the the the extra sprinkle on the on the ice on the ice cream cone you know what i mean so that's how i look at it man like go get the ball go get the football but you know obviously the rules is is frustrating but i i really feel for myself man i could have played in any era and you know i mean i'm thankful for where i am now but i would have loved to play back in the the early 2000s the the late 2000s and oh man that that was that was when football was top tier well the first year 1975 was the first year I really got into football and watched everything. The Patriots were on their way up, all this stuff. And they had the Superbowl and it was the Raiders against the Vikings. This is 75 or 76. I can't remember. And Sammy White went

over the middle and Tatum demolished him and it like demolished him. But somehow Sammy White held on the ball and it was like the most vicious hit in the history of the Superbowl. And it like demolished him, but somehow Samuel had held on the ball and it was like the most vicious hit in the history of the Superbowl. Right. And it was recently recirculating on Twitter. And I was thinking like, if that play happened now, I'd feel like the world would, people would have a heart attack. And this was like routine, right? It was the rule back then was if the wide receiver, the tight end went over the middle,

you're going down. Don't go over the middle. This, that, that territory belongs to the safeties. And that's why I feel like the passing has gone nuts the last 15 years because these guys aren't afraid to go over the middle anymore. So how do you intimidate them when you're really not allowed to hit them? That does sound too savage, but you have to at least make them fear it a little bit, right? And you made a hell of a point, man. It's tough. But for me, it's all about presence. Your presence alone is going to speak volumes to whoever you're playing. They know they have to worry about where 33 is.

They know they have to find 33 every single play or he can change the game. So it's hard, but it's not. You know what I mean? And you just got to stay focused on what you have to do. You can't get caught up in what that person's thinking about you or whatever the case may be. You just have to make your presence known because everybody's watching film. They see it on film.

You can still make big hits to where you make somebody say, oh, I'm not messing with him. You know what I mean? I'm not coming across the middle. But to your point, it is tough, and that is a big difference because that's why there's a lot of passing yards. That's why you see a lot of more touchdowns than usual. You know what I mean?

Because we can't really put our hands on these defenders and really make those impactful football hits like we really want to. But at the same time, you can adjust and still make that similar impact or if not close to, you know what I mean? Yeah, because under the old rules, Kelsey, who just got, especially because they spread him out and they gave him so much space over the middle.

Right. And the old rules, the move would have been, all right, every time he'd just go at him. Just annihilate him. 100%. Make it so that he's at least a little afraid. Now he's not afraid. And he's a lot of times one-on-one and he can make one little spin move. He's always in space because, you know, one of the things about the Chiefs, and I know you play a lot of times one-on-one and he can make a little, one little spin move. He's always in space. Cause you know, one of the things about the chiefs and I know you play a lot of Madden,

you know, they really do look like a Madden offense. Like the way they'll stack receivers on one side, they're always trying to get Kelsey in space or Tyreek in space. The same way when I play Madden, I'm always trying to get people in space. I'm trying to spread people out. Right. Right. I don't really know how to stop it.

You know, when they're humming, when they have Hill and Kelsey together, like, I'm sure you've played them in the past. How do you stop it? It's tough, man. Man, Andy Reid is just, he's one of a kind, right? And then you add Patrick Mahomes and you add Travis Kelsey,

and then you add Tyreekomes and you add Travis Kelsey, and then you add Tyreek Hill taking off the top as far as speed. I mean, you just have so many weapons. You know what I mean? And then you have not only the talent, you have talent at the coaching spot. Who's calling the plays? So when you add all that together, it's special. It's a reason why they're back into the Super Bowl again Bowl again it's no shocker and their defense plays well and they don't they don't get

a lot of credit the defense plays phenomenal and you know when you like I said man when you have a talented group like that with an offense that explosive with a quarterback that's doing it big right now man who's killing the game it's going to be tough man to take those guys down because they're just rolling. They're hitting on all cylinders, man. And I feel like every week they get better. And that's the scary part. So if Seattle was playing them in the Super Bowl,

what would they tell Jamal Adams is his number one job playing the Chiefs in the Super Bowl? Would it be, hey, you got to contain Kelsey? Or would it be, hey, Mahomes can't kind of scramble around. He can't have extra time. Or you got to lay back because we're afraid of Tyreek. What would it be? I think it would be a little bit of both, man.

A little bit of everything. You know what I mean? Just trying to affect the game in every way possible. Trying to slow these guys down just so we can get on track, so we can get a stop. You know what I mean? So when's the last time? They had a few, but they don't punt the ball often.

No, we don't see their punter very often. Yeah, we don't really see their punter. Or they're going for it. You know what I mean? So it's unique, man, in what they do. It's a beautiful thing. But I'm very excited to see them match up versus Tampa Bay because I know all about

Todd Bowles' philosophy on defense. So I'm very, very excited to see that game and that chess match because it's going to be very interesting to see Andy Reid versus Todd Bowles. I'm really looking forward to that.

I know everybody's looking forward to the Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes, but as a defensive player, that's what I'm looking at, man. I was going to ask you about Bowles because you played for him your first couple years in the Jets and he is a revered defensive coordinator, but he got his one chance as a head coach. Weird

situation, never really worked out and then all of a sudden he was out. What did you think of him as a head coach? He was everything, man. he taught me so much on and off the field man and i appreciate him even taking the chance and believing in me you know uh and drafting me at number six overall i i'll never forget that man i'll cherish that for the rest of my life because he's seen something in me that many didn't right and i appreciate that but man he he was he was a hell of a coach very detailed obviously called the defense uh um very very different style very unique in his own way and um you know he just he didn't we didn't you know when todd todd coach todd bowles

was there with me and um we didn't have the players man we didn't have enough pieces to really win right and then we we we were you know uh you know we had josh mccown uh my guy he was in there playing quarterback for us he was being a warrior ultimate warrior that he is right but we knew our future wasn't with josh josh knew that um and you know obviously todd man you know with sam coming in he had to play sam early on rookie um coach with, you know, the coach of the New York Jets, because I would tell you, I would still be there because I loved him that much because I had that much respect for him and what, what he stood for. And he believed in me, man. So I, I always have a lot of respect for coach. Yeah. You, you, you pushed your way out of the Jets.

The Jets have not won a Super Bowl since Joe Namath, the 1969 season. They have one of the top four or five most tortured fan bases. And they're kind of the black sheep of the New York sports scene in a lot of ways. Is it salvageable? Because they have the number two pick this year. Deshaun Watson just asked for a trade this week. The Jets are a logical of ways. Is it salvageable? Cause like they have the number two pick this year. Deshaun Watson just asked for a trade this week. The jets are a logical suitor. They could give them a number two pick. If Deshaun Watson called you and was like, Hey man, I have no trade clause. I can decide where I want to go. The jets are one of the teams. What would you tell him?

You know, I would tell a man, Hey, uh, look at all your options before you make your decision um the city is great you know obviously you know the organization hasn't you know it's been up and down you know you know like you said it hasn't won since the super bowl but man i would if he feels he can go win in new york man go do it it. If that's what you want to do, if that's what's going to make you happy, man, go do it. That's what I would tell him. I wouldn't sway him away from the Jets because that's not, I don't think that's fair on my part.

I think that everybody needs to go through life and make your own decisions. And then if it doesn't work out, then you say, hey, you know what? I fumbled that decision. Or I didn't make, I bet on myself, but I don't know if it was right for me, right? But you got to understand when you do bet on yourself,

you got to have faith and you got to understand that when you stand on the ground, it's going to stand solid no matter what, right? So I wouldn't tell him not to go there, but I would tell him just to be smart and make his decisions. Because, you know, that's a tough place to play. But if you win there, you're a legend forever. That answer was way more diplomatic than I was expecting. I thought you were going to say, I would tell Deshaun, run, run from the Jets.

Don't go there. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, it just didn't work out for me. I wanted to win. It's simple. I wanted to win. You know what I mean? And I wanted to win now. I don't like waiting.

I don't like rebuilding. I'm not going to sit there. I don't believe in that because I believe time waits for nobody. Right. believe time waits for nobody right this NFL league that we're in this business NFL stands for not for long so I need to make the best decisions for myself and not only myself my family in the rest of my career in my future so that's that's where I was where I was battling with, I had to get out of there. That wasn't the place for me at the time of my career and where I am.

And I'm thankful for everything, man. I'm still thankful for them drafting me at so high. I know they don't like, most don't like me, but I still have fans over there and that's okay. As long as they're Jamal Adams fans. I don't want them to be a fan not only of just the team because i play for the team i want you to be a jamal adams fan because that's the real loyalty because guys go through different changes as you see deshaun

watson's going through his you just never know and sometimes you got to make the decision for yourself because everybody else in the world won't understand that unless it's come, it comes down to making a decision for their family. Right. Well, at the same time, you went from an organization that I feel like was probably one of the most discombobulated NFL organizations in the league. I think we could all see it even, even if we're not working for them. And then you go right to Seattle, which is considered to be one of the best organizations with a stable coach who's been there forever and an ownership that spends money, all that stuff. Did you notice the difference? Was it palpable? Since day one, when I walked in, I've noticed the difference. I knew there was a big difference when

I walked in. And then maybe two or three months later, I'm still poking myself saying, is this real? There's no way they run this organization like this. This has to be trick dice. This is not real, you know? And they treat you like a pro, man. And that's what it's about. That's how you grow as a person on and off the field. They

treat you like a pro. And if you don't want to do it, then you'll find yourself out. And that's the beautiful thing because that's the nature of the business. We brought you here to work your tail off and be the best pro you could be for this team to help us reach our goals. Simple. And if you're not going by that, if you're not here to compete at a high level and work your tail off every day to be the best at what you do, and not only that, chase Super Bowls, then you're not right for this organization

because that's what we're here to do. We did a podcast with Pete Carroll here at The Ringer. He did 10 episodes with Steve Kerr where they talked about coaching and stuff. Shockingly inspirational guy. Like just, I remember we were doing one zoom and we were just talking after the zoom and Pete got so excited about one of the topics we were talking about on the pod that he kind of for like four minutes, I just kind of got it. And I'm, I'm talking to him on a zoom, but he was so passionate and just so full of life about this one topic we were talking about. I was like, I get it. I can imagine what this guy is like in the locker room or if he looks you in the eye

and he's like, Jamal, I need you today. You got to do this, that. So you must have been able to feel that from day one. From day one. We have this little area where it's like two chairs out by the field and it's facing the water and it's right on the practice fields. Beautiful, quiet, peaceful. And I'll never forget, he brought me over there when I first got there. And he said, what do you want to prove? What do you want to get out of this trade? Like, what are you setting yourself up for?

And I just remember telling him, man, I just want to be the greatest to do it, right? And I just want to get all this and get all that and win a Super Bowl. But he stopped me and was like, hey, you don't have to do anything special but just be you. You don't have to change anything outside of the building, outside of, you don't have to change anything. I want you to come here and be Jamal Adams.

Be the best version of Jamal Adams. Whatever you want to do, on and off the field, for your future, whatever, broadcasting, interviews, etc. Do it to the best of your ability and just be a true pro at it. He always talked about being a true pro, man, and he always talked about competing. And when he sat me down and told me that, it just really opened my eyes up and just took a burden off my back. Because I always like, put it on my shoulder, put it on my

shoulder. You know what I mean? Oh, I'm strong. I'm strong. No, it's not about that at times. You know what I mean? So when he told me that, man, I knew from that connection that day it was going to be special. And to this day, that's my guy, man. I run through a brick wall for him. Well, the biggest knock on you is your inability to play through injuries. Oh, no, wait. You had like 17 injuries this year. What was the final list? You had a torn labrum.

Give me the complete list. I had a torn labrum. That's one. I had an AC sprain. That's two. I had a strain two. That's two. I had a strain two. Yeah, grade one or two.

No, grade two. Strain on my groin. Right? So that knocked me out for four games. And then I tore my labrum going into the playoffs, the San Fran game on the last second. Oh, I was hurt. I was crushed because I was going to jump over the receiver and make the play. I mean, not the receiver, the running back and make the play.

I was on a blitz, running a normal blitz like I always do, right? And he stepped up in the A-gap. But I knew once he stepped up in the A-gap. But I knew once he stepped up in the A-gap, he was going to mic Bobby Wagner. So when I knew he was going to mic Bobby Wagner, and he stepped up, I knew I was a free blitzer, and I was going to hit the quarterback, and it was going to be a hell of a play.

So as soon as he did that, he checked up in the A-gap, and I came off, boom, hike, came off as soon as I did that, he checked up in the A-gap and I came off, boom, hike, came off. As soon as I was about to explode and jump and knock the ball out, he came back and hit me dead on my shoulder. Turned back last minute, caught me right in my shoulder, knocked my shoulder out of place. And man, I knew because I had this injury before back in high school on my other shoulder. I knew I tore my label so I was crushed I was crushed because not only that I knew that I could not you know perform like me in the playoffs that's why I felt I was brought here you know what I mean so it hurt man it really did hurt, and then in the playoffs, you have, you've got,

first of all, you have a Wolford who gets hurt. And then Goff comes in, he's got pins in his throwing thumb. And it seems like if you had been healthy and at full speed, you would have taken advantage of that situation. I would guess. Listen, if there's a, there's's a couple plays I would have made if I was fully, fully healthy in that game to where we could have changed the whole momentum.

But again... You know what? Sometimes it's not your year. You know? Sometimes it's just not my year. Football is so frustrating that way. Sometimes it doesn't go your way. And it's kind of like, so what now what?

Okay, it didn't go my way. Move on. We're going to the next season. And it's kind of like, so what now? What? Okay. It didn't go my way. Move on. We're going to the next season and next season I'm claiming it now. Going to be my best season. That's what I'm focused on. That's it's next. It's kind of like that next man up mentality. You can't, you can't get stuck in your ways of your pride and all that, man, things happen. So it's time to move on. So here's the other connection we have.

As I said, I'm a diehard Patriots fan. The 1990 Patriots are the worst football team of that entire decade. They went one in 15. The coach was Rod Rust. The team was so bad that I actually started gambling on football that year. I was in college because I basically was like a football widow. I had no team. My team just lost by 20 points every week. And somebody was like, you know, you could just gamble on other games. I'm like, oh, really? Then you just get a favorite team. That's the year I started gambling because of the 1990 Patriots.

Your dad was on that team, George Adams. Yes. He was there the whole year. I'm sure that was the worst football experience of his career. Oh, he hated it. He hated it. And that's why not only did he see me go through what I was going through, he didn't want me to go through that because he'd been through it.

So he was like, no, no, no, no, no, not my son. I'm not about to put my son through what I went through. And I know that feeling. He knew the feeling. He went And I know, I know that feeling. He knew the feeling. He went from a Super Bowl champ to that feeling. So he knew. Right. So it's just part of the game, man. I think this is how I looked at all the trade and everything. The new location for me playing for Seattle. You know, hopefully this being my future because I love it here. And when I when I look back, this whole trade made me a better person off the field.

And I appreciate that. You know what I mean? And it's the little things like that that go a long way with me. So everything happens for a reason. It was meant to be. This is just a part of the story. And that's how I approach it. So I'm I'm always grateful for everything. I have no hate towards any of the people, you know, in that organization with the Jets. No hate at all because it was part of the journey. This is a process. I'm enjoying the process, man.

So I'm grateful. I'm grateful. All right. Tell me about this Madden thing that's coming up. Yeah, man. Representing the NFC, you NFC for the Pro Bowl, obviously due to COVID, a little different circumstances because we would be in Vegas right now.

That would be pretty cool. But I'm representing the NFC playing a quarter. I'll be playing the third quarter versus my opponent, whoever that will be. I'm excited, man. I'm teaming up with all types of guys, man. Kyler and the Beast Mode himself. You know, my man, Rubber Wallace, NASCAR.

So it's going down, man. It's going down. What's your favorite team to play when you play Madden? Who do you play? Do you play the team you're on or do you have a different team? It just depends on who I'm playing. It really depends on who I'm playing it really depends on who i'm playing what's your what's your favorite offensive formation favorite offense i would have to roll with i like the coach uh offenses uh game plan you know i mean

running behind that that that offensive line they're really the best offensive line in the in the in the game i run right behind big n 56. I'm running right behind him every time. So it's always fun to get on a game and have fun, though. Are you going to be able to play a video game with one hand in a cast? Absolutely. People who can't see, your left hand's in a cast right now. Left hand is in a cast, but it's removable. So I've been practicing, man.

I've been practicing, you know. Again've been practicing you know just again that's just more adversity but you got to figure it out so what now what new techniques all right before we go quick question um best hit you've ever had oh best hit i've ever had your, your single favorite hit. My favorite, man. Probably had to be LSU when I hit, when we were playing Patrick Mahomes and they threw a screen and I cleaned up the running back and I read it, seen it on film, been studying all week and I was playing the dime in our package.

And man, that was probably one of my favorite hits. But I have so many. Man, that's hard. You put me on the spot with that one. Toughest guy you've ever had to tackle? Leonard Fournette. Really? How come? Speed. Powerful. He can do it all.

He can set you up to run you over. He can set you up to juke you. You know what I mean? And that makes it tough on a defender, but I would have to say Leonard Fournette for sure. Playoff Lenny. Have you ever been legit stiff armed and knocked back on a tackle? I've been stiff armed when I was in Pop Warner and my dad told me, he said, man, you're going to get stiff-armed if you keep running up there high, like basically bad posture, you know what I mean, not football technique.

He said, you're going to get stiff-armed. And I said, no, I'm not, Pop. I've never been stiff-armed. Surely enough, I got stiff-armed probably like a couple series later by one of these guys. He stiff-armed me. He probably should talk talk about it but he probably didn't know uh but yeah man uh i would have to say back then that was the only time i've been stiff arm so i don't plan to be stiff arm man best quarterback you've ever been on the field with that you were the most

amazed by tom brady really now now you're talking my language. Tell me why. Man, just the everyday grind that he presents and his attitude, his hunger. He's so competitive. He's so smart. And he's out there playing chess, man. He's out there playing chess. And that's why he's one of the greatest to do it.

Did he trick you at all your first game with him? Did he make you think he was going to do the one thing, put you in a different spot, and then burn you the other way? Somewhat. I will say my rookie year, he went at me. I gave up two touchdowns versus Grump my rookie year, I'll never forget.

That was like my welcome to the NFL moment. And then I told myself after that game i said you know what when i see grunk again and tom brady i'm gonna put on a show and then that's when i had that that that that nice game verse uh grump but obviously we did not win it was a tough one uh but i had a great i had a better game and he tried me again he went at me again. It's just like he found a duck in the water. He gonna go at him again. You know what I mean? That's just what he does and I respect him.

I respect him so much, man. People don't have to like him, but you gotta respect him. Listen, you got late career Gronk when you were on the Jets. Early of the decade, Gronk, that was a handful. But when he had no surgeries and... Oh, I believe it.

I believe it. I strongly believe it. They had all the safeties would just go at his knees because that was the only way he could bring him down. That's how he ended up getting really hurt. Do you have a prediction for the Super Bowl, just out of curiosity? I like

Tampa Bay. Notice how I said Tom-pa-bay. I like Tampa Bay 24-17. Okay. Wow, you think they hold the Chiefs to 17? I like Tommy to go win it man On the last drive No doubt

Listen your love for Tom Brady I wasn't expecting I fully support it I appreciate it Pleased to have your dad for me Tell your dad the Patriots have made a huge Huge huge comeback From that 1-15 team We apologize for his bad experiences. No doubt.

I'll definitely tell him, man. All right. Jamal Adams, thanks for coming out. Really appreciate it. I appreciate you, Bill, man. Thank you, buddy. That's it for the podcast. Coming back on Sunday night with another one.

Before we go, wanted to give my condolences and my best to the family and the friends and the colleagues of Sekou Smith, who passed away after a COVID battle this week. Took a lot of people by surprise. And he was only 48 years old. He was a staple on NBA TV. You saw him a lot. I don't know if anyone did more hours of NBA TV than him and was always really good. NBA.com, same thing, an essential voice, uh, touched a lot of lives and, you know, NBA all-star weekend, NBA finals,

NBA playoffs, just always seemed to be there. Always had a smile on his face. Always wanted to talk basketball. And, uh, I just really liked him. So it was sad to read and listen and see all this stuff this week.

And, um, rest in peace. Sekou Smith. I'm on the wayside. I'm a fruit of sun never rotted. I don't have to ever forget.