The Bill Simmons Podcast - Best Dak Takes, Sports Media Trends, and 'The Bachelor' Controversy With Bryan Curtis and Rachel Lindsay

Episode Date: March 10, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Bryan Curtis to discuss the media coverage of Dak Prescott and the Cowboys in the past couple years, the upcoming massive NFL television rights deal, Meghan Markle and Prince Harry's interview with Oprah Winfrey, reexamining sports studio shows after the pandemic, gambling's relationship with sports media, and more (2:40). Then Bill talks with Rachel Lindsay about Season 25 of 'The Bachelor'; reality TV editing; recent missteps from 'The Bachelor' franchise; Rachel's podcast with Van Lathan, 'Higher Learning'; and more (57:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So why not grab some Miller Lights today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night, which was New Jack City 30th anniversary. That was a really fun one. Even we created a new award. Uh, there's a performance in that movie that is so bonkers that we created a new award

for it. Also, uh, I went on Zach Lowe's podcast. We did a home and home. He was on mine two weeks ago. And then I went on his podcast. So that is up now. If you want to hear me talk about basketball coming up, going to talk about to Brian Curtis about the Cowboys and Dak, because he's a big Cowboys fan. We've got to do that. But then we're also going to talk about the NFL media rights, what that could mean for our NFL viewing experience. And then some trends as we head toward the year anniversary of the pandemic and the media. And then my friend Rachel Lindsay comes on, one of our hosts on Higher Learning, to talk about the most controversial bachelor season ever and her role in it and her history with the franchise. And that is

a really good one as well. So good podcast-large, Brian Curtis, is here. When Dak Prescott signs with the Cowboys, I think one thing in my head, I can lead a podcast with that, and people will listen because people love the Cowboys, I think one thing in my head, I can lead a podcast with that and people will listen because people love the Cowboys. No, Curtis, our national nightmare is over. We don't have to hear about Dak's contract anymore. He finally has one. What does the media do now? LeBron MVP. What do we do? It was amazing, wasn't it? Because you could get so many takes out of this thing. You could get the Cowboys are screwing it up, which is always a great take.

That's kind of my go-to take with anything. You could get, oh, are we in the midst of a divorce? You know, is that like a horrible sports James Harden style NFL divorce? You could also get, is Dak Prescott really good enough to lead the Cowboys to a Super Bowl? Right. Which I'm pretty sure is programmed like 1000 sports radio segments, undisputed segments, everything. Well, and then the subset of that is Dak Prescott elite. Is he a top 10 quarterback? So you had that whole thing, but then you also had

the bounce back kind of take versus off the other takes of why do people think the Cowboys screwed this up? They actually offered him a lot of money. He turned it down, which led to the subset of Dax betting on himself. Good thing or bad thing. It really was. This was going back to what? February, 2019. This is over two years of Dax contract. Yeah. And if you go back to Dallas, there's a lot of Romo truther element in all this stuff too. Like they loved Romo, but they haven't quite accepted Dak as Romo's replacement yet. And that adds a whole nother layer to this. That's just really, to me, really weird. I love Tony Romo, but I'm like, really, you want Tony Romo back? You also have the pander culture takes of just when Dak broke his leg, the people who were genuinely distressed that he might have, that might've cost himself money. People who feel the need to just go on social media platforms,

reacting like this is the Titanic hitting an iceberg. It's like, Dak will be fine. Everyone needs a quarterback. He's still getting his 40 million. Calm down. It's going to happen. Was it Romo on the commentary for that game too? Did he say that was like a cramp? Yeah. And back's foot's pointed the other way. Oh man, that was bad. So he got 40 for 40 for four years. And my initial reaction was that's

too much. He just had a Gordon Hayward injury, basically. How do we even know he's going to be good in this year one? Everybody's just penciling him in for 48 touchdowns next year. And then I went, I made a list of all the best quarterbacks and he's somewhere between eight and 13. And when you think about it that way, it's like, oh yeah, it's a 32 team league. They had to do this. Absolutely. Because what are they going to do? What are they going to do? I mean, one, yeah, it's hard to replace a franchise quarterback. And two, it's the Cowboys. Yeah. And they found one in Romo in undrafted free agency. They found this guy in the fourth round and they didn't even want him.

They tried to draft two other quarterbacks ahead of him. So I don't trust the Cowboys to find another quarterback. Come on. The other thing is, I think there's probably eight or nine teams in all of sports that it's just life makes more sense when they're good and they're in the mix and the Cowboys are probably leading the pack with that. The Yankees are like that. I think the Lakers are like

that. I don't know what the whole complete list is, but when the Cowboys sucked last year, it was kind of a drag. As soon as we brought in Andy Dalton and all these crappy QBs and we had all of a drag. As soon as we brought in Andy Dalton and all these crappy QBs and we had all of a sudden they're on Thanksgiving

and they're kind of like a semi-carcass. And it's just like, this sucks. At least be 9-7 and semi-interesting, Cowboys. Yeah, and because of the pandemic, Jerry couldn't shoot his mouth off in front of the locker room after every loss, which is great content.

And let me tell you, first take was missing out on that. Undisputed was missing out on that. You just needed that sort of low to high level of controversy for 17 weeks. It programs everything. Well, I actually think the takes on the Cowboys thing are pretty easy. Yes, they probably handled the Dak thing correctly. So did he. He bet on himself. He made more money than he would have. Yeah, Dallas was right to kind of string it along.

They ended up paying him anyway. And yeah, they made a mistake giving all that money to Zeke. They just gave him too much money. They kind of panicked. And to me, that's going to be so much more damaging. And I don't know how you balance those two contracts. And I know everybody's saying the cap's going to go way up and we have all this media money coming, which we're going to talk about in a second. But just the paying for the running back thing, when you look at 30 years of Jerry Jones and how they really haven't been relevant

as a true contender now for 25 years, it's stuff like that. And it's stuff like that. It's, and it's stuff like CD lamb. We got the steel of the draft when they need help at nine other positions, whether that was a good pick or not. It's always like for the headlines and not for building a football team and the proofs in the pudding. They've,

you know, how, how many years has it been? Like 20, 23 since they made round the conference finals. Something like that. 24 years, something like, I don't even remember. I can't keep track.

I was living in Boston, probably working on my old website. Last time they made the NFC championship game was a year. They made the Superbowl. Right. So it's 25 years. Yeah. So that's what, 95? I was at the Boston Herald.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Fetching coffee and taking down Chinese food orders and covering high school volleyball. You're at the desk

taking scores on a Friday night. Yeah, seriously. So what is that? Walpole 2? Lowell 1? Yeah, the the Jones thing.

It's funny because I think he has been a great owner, but he's also been a terrible owner. He's been the most fascinating mix of visionary crossed with his own worst enemy. And I know you've been studying it and following it forever. But even just all this Dak Zeke stuff recently kind of ties into it. Visionary, but not really. And he's incredibly fun just day to day. Jerry Jones is very fun to consume, even as a Cowboy fan when he's screwing everything up.

But I do find the one weird thing about the Dak contract, which has not been explained to me, is why was he so ready to overpay all those guys you mentioned, especially Zeke, but he wasn't ready to get a DAC contract done for two years. Like what, what, what did he see? Yeah. Are they totally bought in to DAC Prescott? And I think that's a really, a genuine non debate show question because they paid Zeke, they paid a linebacker, they paid their defensive end, they paid their wide receiver, Mari Cooper paid all

those guys, huge money. And Jerry's always taken care of all these guys, right? That's his, if anything, that's his weakness. But he waited and waited to do it with Dak. And I just, and it's more money, you know, quarterbacks cost more money. I get that. But I've never, it's never been explained to me what Jerry Jones and his son, Steven, really think about Dak Prescott. Can we bring in Conspiracy Bill for a second? Please. Always. Conspiracy Bill, come on in. Hey, Brian, what's happening? Hey, Conspiracy Bill. Is it possible Russell Wilson has been on their radar for like two and a half years and that there's been some quiet winking going back and forth? I thought it was very interesting when that list of four Russell Wilson teams

magically emerged from the sky, not tied to anybody. And the list was Dallas, Las Vegas, Chicago, and New Orleans. All right, let's go through the list. New Orleans, he wants to go because he knows in that offense on turf, NFC South, he'd put up huge stats, right? That's the same way as Brady wanted to go there a year ago. They don't have the cap space. They don't have the assets. They're not trading for him. Dallas, that's America's team. It vaults him to a whole other level. He becomes the most famous quarterback in the league. Vegas, this sounds stupid, but I really think this is true.

His wife can do those hosting things there in the casinos, right? And just bank money. Because Vegas, it's like, why is Vegas one of your four teams? Then you go, oh, because of his wife. She can make a lot of money. And then the other one was the Bears.

That was the one that threw me off. Why the Bears, Russell Wilson? Why that team? But anyway, Dallas being on that list that was the one that threw me off. Why the bears, Russell Wilson? Yeah. Why that team? But anyway, Dallas being on that list made me wonder, like, has there been some flirting, some,

some, some illegal flirting between Jerry and Russell Wilson? Prove me wrong. It could be, it could be. I do think the Joneses had a, an idea that the plan B would come along at some point. And I don't know if they thought it was Russell Wilson.

Definitely. Maybe that occurred to him this offseason when that whole thing blew up when he was on Dan Patrick's show. But I just think that they thought maybe we like this guy. We can work with this guy for the time being, but something's going to happen and someone else will come along or some other situation will present itself. Maybe. And maybe we shouldn't do this guy at huge dollars and we should wait for that other person whatever it is to arrive by the way the cowboys are on everybody's list

you'd be yeah that's fair yeah that's fair i thought it was interesting that the giants weren't on his list and then he picked the bears the bears when i just i couldn't wrap my head around there's got to be some sort of hidden explanation for that. Maybe it's like he knows he's the hero if he goes to the Bears. They've never had a good quarterback ever. But I just would have assumed New York

and I would have assumed like the Chargers would have been on his list too because he would get to play in LA. If you and I were NFL free agents, I'd just be like, just say you want to play for the Cowboys. The only good things will happen to you. Jerry might overpay you.

Someone else is going to freak out because they think Jerry's going to overpay. It's just only good things will happen. Yeah, it's almost suspicious if you don't put the Cowboys on there. So when you look at a quarter of a century where the Cowboys have never really been a contender, so now you're thinking there's a child. Their last title is 95. So there's a, there's a former child who is now 32 years old, who has no recollection of a Cowboys juggernaut. 32 years old. Like that's probably half the ringer is under 32. Here's

the weird part with me. So the Cowboys won three Super Bowls in the 90s. Those three were three of my four years of high school. And the other year they lost the NFC Championship game. So just imagine your sports fandom is building and building. You sort of understand the draft. You're all the way down the roster by the time you're like 14. And then they win three out of four. I kind of felt like I was set. Do I want the Cowboys to win more titles?

Of course I do. But I got mine if we can call them mine. And here's the other thing. Cowboys are just really fun to watch and consume as a product, even when they lose. Maybe there are people in Dallas who don't feel that way. They just tear their hair out. They hate Jerry. They just hate everything.

I find them incredibly amusing. That's why you don't see me doing the haunted fan thing on Twitter all the time. Like everybody else does. I'm really not haunted. I'm like, I'm like, this sucks. I'm mad. They lost to the giants or Washington or whoever, but Jerry will do something really, really wildly interesting tomorrow. And I'll just be like, okay, I'll just pay attention to that instead. I like that. You feel like you've banked your titles and you're good. That's such like a Zen approach. I wish I could have acted that way.

I had so much good stuff happened through 86. And then from 86 to Oh, what? It was just dark. I really took it personally. I had a lot of trauma and pain. A lot of tough losses. I would never call you a Zen fan at all. No.

But I got my three and I got Vince Young in Texas got one in 05, my alma mater. And it's all gravy. It's all gravy now. One of the many pieces I regret in my archives, wherever the hell they are, is the one I wrote about the 20 rules of being a sports fan, which I wrote, I think, before basically every Boston title. And it was really like the Yankee fans made me so mad because they'd won like four and five years. And then they lost to Arizona in the 2001 World Series. It was like, fuck you guys.

You guys won four titles. You're not allowed to complain about anything. And I had all these rules. And then over the next 20 years, just proceeded to break most of them in their five-year grace period. If you win a title, you're not allowed to be a dick. Like I was just, I just went through and broke all of them. You lose your mind when your team wins. As soon as Cam had a bad game this year, you broke them. You were, you were pissed off. I heard all those podcasts. I did. Well,

the good thing is I got to a good place with Brady that involved gambling. Instead of being spiteful and resentful that he was doing well, I just gambled on him and then everybody won. We were on the same side. We were super happy about it. Can we talk about NFL rights stuff? Sure. On the tip of America's tongue.

But I do think there's real ramifications here. So we have a new TV deal coming. We have a shitload of suitors. We have stuff getting leaked left and right. We have breathless stuff being said with no verification. Like, they're going to get

twice as much money. We have Amazon lurking. Yep. And we have Thursday night and then we have Sunday night. We have Monday night. First question, are we going to have more nights than that? Do you think we're just going to have those three nights?

I would say just those three nights. I think the NFL is happy with that. Second question, are you a believer in the Amazon is going to swallow up Thursday night football theory for a ton of money? Absolutely. Absolutely. So it seems like that's happening. The question then is

how many of those games are just on Amazon and on streaming? And how many are this weird sharing deal with the NFL Network that they've been doing with Thursday Night Forever? Because remember,

the NFL needs the NFL Network to have a reason to exist. So you're going to put some of those games on the NFL Network. But yes, the Amazon thing is the most fascinating part of this to me by far. All right. I'm going to cover NFL network and then go back to Amazon. So in Shoemaker and I talked about this last week, WWE network,

they form it in 2013, 14 range. It was like, Holy shit. They're so ahead of the game. They're going to own their own content, come subscribed on the, who all their subscribers in. Then we get to 2021 and they're like, cool, we're actually going to be on Peacock now. Um, we've kind of dumped the network. We're not really saying we dumped it, but we're moving our entire network to Peacock. Peacock is now the network because they paid us way more money than we would have made on our own. And it would have been a huge pain in the ass and, you know, all that we don't have to update the app. We don't have to have as many employees, all that stuff. So they moved to Peacock for more money. Totally smart decision made sense.

Football, they have the NFL network and it's going to be like, well, this network, the cable subscribers will have to get it. We'll put games on there. Everyone will flip out if they can't get football, which is exactly what happened. Everyone flipped out. Wait, there are these games?

I can't see them? It does well, I guess. And now it's 2021 and cable subscribers and satellite subscribers are less and less meaningful. What is the point of the NFL network in its current incarnation when the whole reason they had it was to basically extort people

for the fees because of the football games. I'll tell you a second reason they had it, by the way, that worked brilliantly. It was to force ESPN to talk more about the NFL. Oh, okay. Yeah. I just remember talking to people there and remember when the NFL network said, you know what? We should make a show, the schedule release. Like, that's not even a thing. Like, we're just going to make schedule release like a national holiday. Guess what ESPN did? Hmm. That's funny.

You know, we're going to start covering the combine. That's, well, some guy's going to run in a straight line for 40 yards. That sounds cool. Guess what ESPN ABC has been covering last couple of years when we still had a combine. The combine. So basically you put pressure on ESPN to cover all these things even more than they were already doing. And I think that's actually the masterstroke. They turned ESPN into an advertisement for the NFL and look at ESPN.

Now they can't lose the NFL. The end of not just the games on Monday night, but the NFL is all over the schedule. It's the first thing on first take every freaking day. Yeah, they can't lose not only the NFL, but that whole Monday when they're basically the epicenter of the NFL for 16 Mondays in a row. Absolutely. Coach firing day, the day after the season. That's like a holiday on ESPN too, right?

So that's part of it. But I think if you're the NFL now with that network, you see the way cable's going. You see the writing on the wall, obviously. Everybody does. But you're probably just trying to extract as much value out of that as you can right now. And part of that is keeping some games on there,

keeping it on everybody's cable dial and just pulling as much money of that as you can until the world changes. And then you'll do something else. Or could you see them sell the whole network to Amazon for five years, like WWE did to Peacock? Maybe, though I think direct TV would be the more, excuse me, the Sunday ticket would be the easiest thing to sell to one of those streamers.

Or maybe it's all of it. Or maybe it's all of it. I have been a Sunday Ticket subscriber since 2000. I've had some horrible experiences with DirecTV. This is not a DirecTV advertisement. I don't know if there's a more frustrating company that's been in my life for the last 20 years where, hey, my satellite doesn't work. Hold on. We're going to put you on hold for seven hours. I love DirecTV. I love the, I mean, I love the Sunday ticket. I like being able to put, I have multiple receivers. I like being able to send different things. I like the ability to flip channels.

The experience just has not been replicated in a way that I've been happy with, with the streaming stuff. And, you know, you see it, I like the closest probably is the NBA app for what they've done this year, which I think has been a pretty good app moves fast. You can, you can move around the games, but you still can't. It's,

it's like more moves to flip around. And I think that's what, I don't know how you fix that on Amazon. And I don't, I don't know how you fix that on Amazon and I don't I don't know if they know either but it feels like League Pass or season ticket is going to Amazon I agree with you yeah or somebody that's going to give them a whole bunch of money for that because that feels like the WWE thing like we can just go buy this and stick it in our streaming service and everybody's going to and everybody's going to want it yeah everybody's going to want it. Yep. Everybody's going to want that.

So ESPN Plus would be the other thing, right? So ESPN Plus makes this deal with UFC. It seemed like they overpaid. They did not. They're making money on it and they're probably going to have to redo the deal before it's done. And if anything, UFC probably sold too low. And it's been the only reason people are going to ESPN Plus is UFC.

I think in some college basketball, it's like niche stuff, but been the only reason people are going to ESPN plus is UFC. I think in some college basketball, it's like niche stuff, but really the only mainstream thing. So I would argue season ticket would be pretty good for ESPN plus. What would be interesting is Amazon, Reed Donahue runs Amazon who used to be at ESPN. And now it's like, you know, it's just, it'd be funny if she stole all this stuff from ESPN. I'll tell you the other Amazon thing that's fascinating. So let's say they get Thursday Night Football. They have to produce Thursday Night Football. Oh, well, that's interesting.

You have to create a sports department from scratch. You got to go get producers. You got to get cameras. You got to get trucks. Again, they could wind up doing this in a different way than what I understand right now. But going from zero to broadcasting football, that's a big lift. And can you name the last two times that has happened in the last 30 years where somebody has gone from not broadcasting games to actually broadcasting games? It was Fox in 95. Which was great. And then NBC in the mid-2000s, right?

When they got it back. That was that one. Oh, then I got a third one then. Think former Today Show host calling football. O'Brien Gumbel, NFL Network, yeah. Yeah. That was tough. So it's sort of a mixed card.

But just imagine if you're trying to do that. Again, this doesn't kick in until for a couple of years, but that to me is fascinating because one, they could just do something totally different with announcers. They could do different feeds, which are a lot easier to do on a streaming service. So you could have your conventional analyst game caller kind of feed, and then you could have something a little more nerdy and interesting next to that that you and I could play around with and go through a bunch of different things. but they could really put a stamp on that in an interesting way. And my, my theory has always been, it should be a fun broadcast, right? Like

Sunday should be serious football. Anything that's not Sunday should be fun. Football should be bonus football. Well, it was our dream to have the multiple announcers for one game forever. Right. And then there's been some dabbling with it. They've ESPN's tried it with some big college football games and they had their fan broadcast for each side, stuff like that. But ultimately they're splitting up the sponsors and all these different broadcasts.

And that doesn't make them happy. Amazon, what do they care? They could have 10 broadcasts. I mean, they, they already were kind of doing this with, uh,

they had Hannah and Andrea Kramer, right? That's right. Um, on their own feed, but then they would also have on the playoff game. They had the normal game feed with the, whatever,

whoever the announcers were. So they had two different announcing feeds. Basically they could have 10. Sure. It could lead to a Barstool NFL game, which I think would give Richard Deitch an aneurysm. But if you want to put your stamp on it, that's how you could do it.

It's like we're going to do something just completely different and let you consume NFL football in a way you've never done it. That'd be cool. I'm available. Uh-oh. I would love to do it. Forget barstool.

We upgraded. Let's no, let's just do, let's just have rotating. Everybody gets a chance. It's like a pinata. We all get to hit it and try to announce the game. You get to do one week. We get to bring it out about every, everybody, maybe they should have charity. People buy in, get billionaires on there. I think the Amazon possibilities are my favorite piece of this new rights deal thing. I mean, we've already spent way too much time talking about rights deal, but to me, it's like we have a chance to kind of at least try some shit.

And if there's 10 announcing teams for one game, that's fun. If you had a better way to do league pass where I'm getting Patriots games, but I could have like local announcers doing my Patriots game or I can get the radio broadcast, stuff like that. There's a lot of fun wrinkles that at least they could think about.

My guess would be they won't think about any of them and it'll just be the same product. But it's just fun to think like things might be different. And I hope they think of something because the rest of this is going to look like football does right now. It's going to be Fox and CBS in the afternoon on Sunday. It's going to be NBC on Sunday night. It's going to be ESPN maybe with a slightly better games, maybe with some ABC part of it on Monday night.

Is ESPN getting a Super Bowl? At some point, can you get a Super Bowl ESPN? Can you get one? They have to. So embarrassing. point can you get a Super Bowl ESPN could you get one they have to after all this I mean they've spent how many years now resetting the relationship with the NFL by putting the combine on by doing two different draft broadcasts which I guess we're going to get again this year with with Greeny and Reese Davis on ABC and you're just like if it doesn't pay, and I'm even a little like, I know for a fact their eyes were really big a year ago when they were like, could we get Sunday night and Monday night?

Oh, yeah. Could we get multiple packages? And now if it's just going to be a slightly better Monday night football with flex games, and they keep talking about flex games and better games, where are these games going to come from? Everybody says, well, I want better games. Well, doesn't Fox and CBS want better games on Sunday afternoon? Sunday night's already a showcase. Where are the good games going to come from at some point? Also, why aren't they involved on Thursday night? Is it just too expensive? I think everybody just decided that was a really crappy deal because of the sharing with the NFL network. It's really expensive and you have to do this sharing thing that they just weren't into. So you think the NFL network sharing thing happens either way?

I think it's gotta, maybe not for every game. So the question, I think Fox had, I can't remember the number. I want to say it's around 10 games that they just did on Fox. So let's, you know, that they did not share or do as NFL Network games. So think about could those exclusive games go to just Amazon? Those would be just purely Amazon games. And if you're in Boston and the Patriots are playing Thursday night, it's going to be on free TV somewhere. They'll put it

on television. So yeah, then that would be fascinating. I have one more fun wrinkle of this, but we're going to take a break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache,

you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. You know, one other thing when you talk about all those Amazon channels, we're starting to see some people dabble with this and then other people pretend that this whole gambling world is happening. And they like Fox does these boxing telecasts and they don't acknowledge gambling at all. They don't even have the odds running on the bottom. And meanwhile, we had this, the, the, what was it? Logan Paul against whoever fight a couple months ago. And it was just gambling, gambling, gambling, you know, and,

uh, Roy Jones, Jr. Tyson. And they really own the odds part. And it was really fun. It made it more fun to watch the thing. And especially with how gambling crazy everything's getting,

I would think if the Amazon, one of those broadcasts was just like a pure gambling podcast. I mean, a broadcast and the announcers were versed in the language. They had a third person who, you know, like Cousin Sal. He's just like spouting out props left and right. And that would be like the crazy gambler broadcast. I think that would be the one I watched.

I think we need to recreate the old NFL today and Brent can do play-by-play. And then Sal will be in the Jimmy the Greek seat. And we'll just do it like that. I think that'd be fantastic. But no, that's a good idea. Why not? Just get crazy.

It should just be, it should be a bunch of different tastes for whoever is watching. Speaking of Brent, you wrote a piece recently about 30 years ago when Brent got bounced

from CBS, which was the most shocking media moment, probably a sports media moment of my lifetime. For me personally, I just couldn't believe it. He was doing every single CBS event and then they had a contract thing and they were like, nah, all right, fine, leave. Replaced him with Jim Nance, Greg Gumbel, the rest was history. And now Nance is in a similar situation where at some point they're going to stare at each other and somebody might blink and then he might be leaving. So you wrote that piece like, I don't know, a month ago. Is it, does he stay? What happens?

Cause we have masters coming up. This is going to be a big storyline. I think the biggest thing is if I'm Jim Nance, can you imagine going from Saturday, Sunday masters to Thursday, Friday Masters? Is that really worth the money? ESPN, you mean? Yeah. And then how do you handle the Van Pelt thing if you're ESPN? Like you basically already have Jim Nance.

Yeah. I'm not saying he's going to replace Van Pelt, but just think of like, what would you do somewhere else if you're Jim Nance? Or go to, I don't know, NBC and do their golf stuff. I just, I've always gotten the sense that not only is that stuff important to him, but he derived some of his Jim Nance, you know, this is Nance-ness from doing the final four. Right. And giving the ties and doing the, and doing the masters and doing the, and doing the Superbowl, by the way, where else is that going to be? I mean, I guess he could do that on ESPN. Also, by the way, Romo's been unbelievable for him. Oh. It's been total...

Nance and Sims were a terrible team the last two years. They were one of the worst broadcast teams, and now Nance has been rejuvenated. I asked Nance about that at the Super Bowl a couple years ago, and he was like, you always have to kind of match your partner. So if Tony's up here, and Jim, I'm about to fly out of the booth.

I'm so excited. Jim has to come up. And with Sims, at that point, Sims was good for a long time, but he was just like down here. And so Jim's coming down here to match him. He can't be too high. No, I agree.

And I just think, to me, that's the thing that gets it done at the end of the day. By the way, you know what the Brent comparison would be if that happened today? It would be Jim leaving CBS after Saturday at the Masters, but before Sunday at the Masters. Oh, good call. Yeah, because Brent was before the title game. That's the only thing that could compare. But we had no internet back then. And then Jim going out Sunday to say goodbye.

Wow. To do the Masters and then say goodbye to CBS from Butler Cabin. That's the only thing that could match what Brent did. And even then it would be, it wouldn't even be as big. Brent, it's just, Brent just was way bigger and meant more just because we had less TV channels and less everything. And, you know, you'd have 20 million people watching NFL today with him and Phyllis at Earth Cross. It would never happen now. None of this stuff would happen. All the rating stuff, it's hard to explain. There's this TV, there's this Twitter account. It's called Retro News Now or something that I had bookmarked. Because I have all these Twitter accounts bookmarked that

I just go, that I scroll through for info info and I'll post the rating stuff sometimes. And you see some of the ratings for these shows from like 1977, where it was like the love boat, 16 million people per episode and things like that. You just realize like, oh yeah, we didn't have anything going on back then. That's what Oprah got the other day. And that was a shocking, you know, for the Megan and Harry interview. She has 17 million people. And that was like, we were like, wow, 17 million. That was such a unique, oh my God, you have to be in front of a TV kind of moment that just doesn't happen anymore. Everything is like an orchestrated version of that where it's like, I don't really need to be on TV.

It's like the WandaVision season finale. I can stay up late and watch it or I'll watch it next morning. That Meghan Markle thing, people were having like watch parties for it. What does that happen? Juliet went to a watch party. And as a bunch of people noted, it was a huge undersell. Yeah. They undersold how amazing that was because I sat down to watch it with my wife and she was like, I'm going to watch a few minutes of this and I'm going to go do some work. There were like five bombshells per segment.

Yeah. And even the Oprah tees, speaking of the greenie tees, it was the Oprah tees where she would just ask the question right before the commercial and then you'd have to wait. It always paid off. It was amazing. A lot of people have made this point, but it was a masterpiece from Oprah. And it's funny because she really is like one of the all-time hall of fame,

first ballot greats. But when you've been successful for that long, there's going to be some backlash. And I think sometimes just people forget like she's by far the best at this. You know, like nobody's on her corner. That's how I always like to measure some of this stuff is like, who's been in Oprah's corner. Who's taken some of her territory. If she was like, you know, Avon Barksdale, who's, who's grabbing her territory when she went to, I don't know when she disappeared for six months, nobody, cause nobody else can do what she does. Ellen was a tiny bit on it, but Ellen couldn't have done interviews like that. Oprah had this journalistic side to her that I always thought was like really underrated. Like she, her and Barbara Walters, I think in the last 40 years are probably the two best people at, I'm going to get you to say stuff you didn't think you were going to say.

Uh, yes. And I would say Oprah has a genuine interest in other people that a lot of talk show hosts don't have. A lot of those TV people, they're really good at having fun for for an hour but it's kind of like letterman when the guest comes out and he's just like you're like letterman doesn't care what this person says right everyone just wants to get a bit out of it and then you know i love letterman blaine letterman didn't care oprah genuinely cares and by the way she sprinkled in just enough oprah isisms into that whole thing that congratulations. You're having a daughter!

He went back to like, you know, daily TV show Oprah. It was fantastic. I also love the setup where they were. I have no idea where they were, but it just seemed like the most peaceful,

nicest place anyone's ever been. I said on the press box, I thought they taped that at Downton Abbey because it was like perfect. It looked like it was the British countryside. It turns out it was Gayle King's house. Oh, man.

It's quite a house. Yeah. Great job. Gayle King, kind of Oprah's Joe House, really made a name for herself. Still hope for Joe House. Oh, my God. Hey, it's been a year since the pandemic.

Since that whole week when it all went down. We've talked about how stuff's changed, but now we're in this mode of like, first of all, does it seem like a year? Does it seem like five years or three months? So it seemed like 10 years, like last summer, between March and June. Now I think it feels more like a year, weirdly, as we get to the anniversary of the Jazz Thunder Night. I don't know.

You know, time has been so weird during this whole thing. And I feel like, you know, there's certain days where I just feel like, I just feel like kind of awful. And like, I just, I just, again, nothing's wrong with my life. Actually, my life's great, but I just, you're sitting in your office. I can't go anywhere. I can't travel. I can't do the things I would normally do. And I just feel so weird and depressed. And then there are other times when you're just like, wow, that's only been a year. Like this, there was a worldwide pandemic that killed more than half a million Americans. And the one thing for those of us privileged enough to be in this category is we stayed at home for a year.

Okay. That was actually probably pretty fast. So I don't know. I don't know. Time is weird during this whole period. Any huge trends you've noticed from last year to this year with reporting and features and some of the work people have been able to do or not do? Have we really been that affected? You know, one weird thing is I think we've sort of reinvented TV a lot. That Oprah special looked like old school TV where it was all produced and it looked really pretty outside and it was lit perfectly.

But now, you know, I think television is kind of like, oh, look at that. It's like you and I talking here over Zoom. It's like, that looks pretty good. No, that'll do. You know, it's a little fuzzy, but we'll just deal with it. So I think that's been one thing. I think that's been the biggest. The biggest one for me is the networks and especially places like ESPN, realizing that maybe it doesn't

matter as much how things look as they thought. I had an executive tell me a couple months ago, it's like, we're all asking ourselves, why were we putting all that money into studio shows to make them look so good? And at the end of the day, this whole thing made it clear that we were doing that for our own benefit as much as anything else. The viewers didn't care. I think I've told you this story, but the first year I did Countdown, they were changing the set. And we had a set. It was fine.

It was like the Kia set. It was a tiny bit dark, but we were around this round table. Poor Magic was like 6'9". He could barely fit in this round table with his knees and stuff. But it was fine six, nine. He could barely like fit in this round table with his knees and stuff, but it was fine. Did the job. Um, but they were like a new sets coming in Christmas and they were spent like, I don't know, 1.2 million or 1.1 million. It's like the new set. It's going to happen Christmas, blow it out. And then, uh, getting the set and it was nice.

It was higher ceilings. They had that big jib, the crane that comes in and they were able to do some stuff there that the jib's going to come in. And I'm like, I'm terrified to be on TV. I don't, the jib does nothing for me. I just see this thing flying at me. But they were like, come out and talk about the new set, like really have fun with it. So we come out, we had to do the whole thing. Like, Oh, look at us. And guess what? Nobody cared. Not one person. Nobody in my life was like, Hey, saw the set. Whoa. Wow. Tell me more about the set. Nobody cared. Not one person. So, but they, they did the same thing with sports center. They spent where they spent like a hundred million on that sports center set, 110 million.

And it looks like they were doing something in this giant movie lot hanger, you know, and you're going like, what is going on? It made everything look terrible. It's, it's to me, it's like a theory that I've had forever is sometimes, especially when you have a bigger company and you have a lot of people in meetings and people, and you have to have like an ideas meeting. It's like, all right, go around. Brian, what do you have? What's your idea today?

And somebody would be like, I had an idea. What if we blew up the sports center set and made it amazing and really made it more digital? It's interesting. Can you write a plan? And then all of a sudden, three months later, somebody's greenlighting $100 million for a sports center set. This is how this shit works.

It's always somebody in some meeting who's like, I don't have anything today. What if we made a fancier sports center set? They didn't prepare. But that's the thing. When Jim Miller writes the sequel to his ESPN book, just about the 2010s, when you're on top like that,

like they were in 2012, 13, and you just have the kind of fuck you money that they had and the money's pouring in and it doesn't seem like there's any chance that faucet's going to stop, you start doing things like the $100 million set. Absolutely. Like, why wouldn't you? You're like the $100 million set. Absolutely. Like, why wouldn't you?

You're like, cool. All right. Great. And then it's like, ah, FS1's on our corner. Oh, watch this. They're not getting anybody. And then it goes. But yeah, that would be a good book by Jim Mill.

Absolutely. I can't wait to read that as an employee of ESPN during that period. As somebody who a very small amount of that fuck you money was flowing into my bank account. I can't wait. Great, we'll get a chapter. There we go. Well, Jim Miller's doing, he's doing an HBO book right now. I know. He tweeted out the cover.

He did like a whole oral history and HBO's been kind of quietly around for 42, 44 years, 48 years, I don't even remember. And he's already finished it. It's like coming out. Just moves on. Gets people to say stuff. Any other trends for you

as we head to the year mark here? It's a good question. I mean, I think, I just think, I'm wondering how much TV will bounce back to its former state. I'm not saying like it's rating stuff because who cares about that.

But when we round this corner, if we ever round this corner, are we just going to keep doing things this way? Is it so much easier that we just do things in the way you and I are doing it right now? And that's fine. I kind of think it will be in terms of television. I also think it's weirdly more intimate to do it this way. If you just remember that very first NFL draft on ESPN, where we saw Bill Belichick and his dog sitting at the table, that was way more interesting than a shot of a bland meeting room and the Patriots headquarters that looks like every other meeting room in

the world. Right. And there's a intimacy. And I've just even noticed this as, you know, when I'm writing stories, it's like now I interview people a lot of times via Zoom, if it's like a for profile or something like that. A lot of times that would have just been a phone call before, but now I actually see the person I'm looking at them. I see the background. You know, if I was interviewing you, I'd see that Larry Bird book and I'd probably ask you about it over your shoulder and I, Bill, why do you got Larry Bird's drive right there behind you?

And I would say, because it's the Bible. But I just feel it's created this extra layer of intimacy, of personal kind of nature that maybe we didn't have before in TV when everything was a set, everything was like a chair and a desk and a plant or, you know, inside team headquarters. And I think that's kind of interesting. And I think it's actually probably been for the better. Yeah. You know, I spent a lot of time thinking about how to, over the last like seven, eight years, how to make, and this is when we're at Grantland, when Jacoby and I were doing all the audio stuff and we turned the electrical closet into a studio. And that was something I was really passionate about because I had done some TV and one of the things I didn't understand with TV was why they had these

spectacular kind of soulless sets, right? With a lot of lights. And it was almost like their goal was to make the talent uncomfortable when the talent's supposed to, you're supposed to be personable. You're supposed to, you have an earpiece in your ear. You have somebody talking to you as you're talking you have cameras flying around and it's like you're almost like becoming a quarterback in a football game with things flying around you're just trying to complete a pass and when Jacoby

and I were talking about what we wanted to do and I was like I really want like a podcast studio where we could film it but the cameras don't move there's nobody in there but me and the person whoever my guest is. And we just go in there and we sit there and they won't even know they're being filmed. That's what we got to figure out. We did it. And it was really cool how intimate it is.

And then we tried to recreate it at the ringer, which I think we did. And the whole mindset was make people feel like they're not on TV. And I think what I've seen the last year with some of this stuff is people are doing TV that don't necessarily feel like they're doing TV because is it any more different than doing a Zoom? True. And they're doing Zooms all the time. It's basically the same thing.

So in a way it's brought out, I think it's hurt some shows. Like I still feel like, and Cornizer will say this, PTI when they're in the room together is just going to be better, you know? And I felt that too. That was why I didn't want to do it remotely

because I just, I like being next to Kornheiser doing that show. You know, so I get it, but I do think it's helped some of these other shows. And you realize like sometimes it's, if you're doing a four person show, sometimes it's easier to just see the other three squares right in front of you

as you're talking versus turning left, turning right, Especially if you're in that middle seat, fucking sucks. Turning this way. Oh, now I gotta go this way. Like that Kenny Smith seat that he's in. If you watch how he sits, he sits way back. He's kind of like on his back left butt cheek. So he can turn toward Ernie, but has the ability to turn back to Charles. Like that seat sucks. And it's really hard to be comfortable. Anyway, I just had a rant. Yeah, it's funny. I watched a clip from The View

that was going around Twitter today. And I guess they're remote. And it was like four boxes. And it was a big argument. And everybody was like yelling at each other in like four boxes. And I'm like, maybe they do. They're like PTI.

They just need to be in the same place. Yeah. The talking over each other becomes really hard on those things. You see it in first take. I think it's actually hurt first take because it's so much harder for them to jump in and out against each other. Yeah. You lose the body language and the kind of, you know, here I feel the guy over here going like this. He wants to come in. So I'm going to stop and I'm going to let him or her come in. You know what's really helped is the local shows. I think the Celtics pregame, halftime, postgame,

it's just less awkward because those local shows, they're always like it's a wide shot. The person sitting there, it's usually some sports writer who is terrified like me once upon a time, just trying to figure out how to sit. And now everybody's just hanging out on a Zoom. Kendrick Perkins comes flying in off the top rope. He's got energy. I don't know. I feel like it's helped the local ones.

I heard somebody say on Twitter too the other day after Meghan and Harry that, why don't we do long form interviews on TV? That was a question. Like this was now, again, you're not going to get the Prince talking about the monarchy on every single interview, but it did remind people that that, that used to be a thing. Now it's on podcasts, I guess, but that was a thing. And it was a really good thing when it was done well, it was really, really good. I tried it. I went down in flames. I remember. I do feel like podcasts replaced. It's just easier to listen to a podcast. Like right now, somebody is listening to us at like 1.8 speed.

Yeah. They're just flying through it for the next one. We couldn't do that with Tom Snyder back in the day. You just had to kind of listen on your television, watch on your television. That's true. I have two things for your wheelhouse before we go. Sure. One is that Pluto has a bunch of channels that are like,

I don't know if you know what Pluto is, but it's basically like, uh, it's an app that you go and they have, it's paramount. It's all paramount programs. And they have like, the reason I know is they have a challenge channel.

They have an MTV challenge channel, which I started watching during the pandemic, but then they also had 90210 channel. They don't love boat channel. They have all these channels that are just, you're kind of flying through like, oh, wow. But they have a Johnny Carson channel. And it's 70s and 80s Johnny Carson. And obviously we're all home, bored as hell. Sometimes I've floated over there and I've been watching some of these old Johnny Carson shows and it's like, they might as well have been 130 years ago. These guests come out, people are smoking.

There's multiple people on the couch. Don Rickles comes on and says 38 things that would get him canceled now. The way Carson interacts, Carson's like genuinely interested in Angie Dickinson for like 13 straight minutes. And she's telling him about this new TV movie she's filmed. I just can't believe that this was in my lifetime, these conversations. Ed's laughing in the back. He seems like he's sauced. They're thrown to the band leader. It's out of like a time warp. I really thoroughly recommend it. Did you stumble across the seasons where Johnny had that lake scene behind him?

You know, he had the city lights for a long time, but then he had that one where it was a lake. I haven't seen the lake yet. I'm going to look for the lake. It's almost, it's a really weird, it's another one that you just can't imagine now.

Can you imagine like now, it's like we turn on the Today Show and there's just like a peaceful water scene behind them. That would not be happening. That would not happen. They would get vetoed. I do endorse Carson as a great time capsule. Absolutely. He was...

I think he was the best. Oh, yeah. I don't think that's a question. I love Dave, but Johnny was the best. How he was able to navigate these 70s situations where it was always on the precipice of just completely falling apart.

And he was just, I don't know. I was just really impressed by him. And it actually depressed me because I was thinking like, nobody under 40 has even probably an opinion on Johnny Carson. Maybe under 35 has even an opinion on Johnny Carson.

This guy was this titan. And then it just kind of goes away. Nobody thinks about him again. They're like, Bob Hope's another one. Bob Hope was on one of the shows I watched. I was like, wow, this is in the 70s. This was this massive moment. And then it's like, well, Bob Hope got an airport named after him. That was one thing I had for you. The other one is I want to read more old interviews because I bought all these old premier magazines that I've been just fascinated by reading some of the stuff. is I want to read more old interviews because I bought all these old premiere magazines that I've been just fascinated by reading some of the stuff.

So I wanted to read old Playboy interviews and they have these different books of the Playboy interviews and they're separated by like the director, the talents, all these different things. And I was reading the director book recently and it's got interviews with like Spike Lee, John Huston, Francis Coppola, all this stuff. was reading the director book recently and it's got interviews with like Spike Lee, John Houston,

uh, Francis Coppola, all this stuff. So riveting. And it made me think like people used to actually say shit in interviews. Yes. You read it and you're like, Oh my God,

I can't believe you said that. And it's, it's 10 times in each interview because they weren't gonna they weren't worried about the repercussions of everything so you're actually getting this real glimpse into what this person was like which i now feel like is impossible yeah i feel like we get like quincy jones you know we'll be in new york magazine and we'll get that like every three years and it'll be holy shit whoa quincy yeah he just it's usually somebody who's older doesn't give a fuck anymore it's somebody on the Champions Tour of life

who is just like, I'm ready to, the person called me right at the right time and I'm ready to spew. I do remember, aren't those Playboy interviews, isn't it like you read the fine print and it's like,

this interview was cobbled together over four different interviews lasting six and a half hours? Yeah. So you kind of understand that there was a lot of chaff there. Yes. You know, and they were able to just distill it down and I'm sure again, I don't know playboy, but I'm sure they were some quote massaging going on. Cause those reads so well, you know,

they just, they read like they were written essentially. Well, what I was thinking was those were the first podcast basically. Those Playboy interviews. Where it's like a legit long form hang, get a feel for the person. And I don't know, in the 70s and 80s, they were the single most important interview you could do. Yes. Because you weren't getting that Carson.

No. Dick Cavett, Mike Douglas, none of that stuff. But if you really wanted... So the reason I got it was because Eddie Murphy gave this interview. He did a Playboy interview in like 1989, 1990. And I wanted to read it before we did the Coming to America pod. So I ordered on eBay. Of course, it showed up late. Didn't show up in time.

But I read it and he says so many things in it that I was just like, wow, I can't believe he said that. Or, oh my God, I didn't realize that. I was like, I need more. I want to read all the interviews. So they have these books and you can get them on eBay, but is the most interesting book binge I've done this year. What's been your most interesting book or book binge that you've been on? Oh, that's a good question. I, I've, I feel like I've been so scattered during the pandemic and I'll try to concentrate on one thing. I read a detective novel that Shoemaker's a huge fan of the other day, but I just feel I've been unable to concentrate on anything like that. I'm proud of you for being able to do it.

I have been doing what I'll do is all when I'll do like the Brent piece. I'm on newspapers.com. By the way, best hundred dollars I spend in a year because it's just like every newspaper ever. And you can search by newspapers.com. I believe that's the, how did you not tell me about this? You don't know about this. Oh, you've ruined my month now. So when you put in the dates and put in Brent Musburger, you see like the Sacramento B that day and have the full scannable pages. It's not. Yeah. And can you get the old Peter Vesey? Oh, Bill, you can get everything.

You get some hoops du jour. You can get everything. Oh my God. Can you get the Mike Lupico one liners? But that is my absolute rabbit hole. It's fabulous. And it's just got, it's just got everything. A billion, just, just, just everything.

You host a podcast called The Press Box with our friend David Shoemaker, who you've known since you were little boys. Since the Cowboys were winning Super Bowls. Yeah. 14, yeah. That podcast is twice a week. That's where you can hear Brian Curtis.

You can also read him on a website called theringer.com. It was good to see you. We got to do, next time you come on, we got to do the sports reporters with Jason. But with Dak was a special, special case. Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Bill. Good to see you.

All right. The pride of Dallas is here, Rachel Lindsay. You can hear her on the Higher Learning Podcast with my guy, Van Lathan, twice a week. She's also popped on a Bachelor Party with Juliette Lipman many, many, many times. Been in the news a lot lately. And then your team signed a quarterback. So that was exciting. So exciting.

And thank you for acknowledging that, Bill. You know, us Cowboys fans don't get the respect that we deserve. So thank you so much for saying that. It's nice when the cowboy that we don't have to read about this anymore is my, is my big take. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of like two years of Dak's contract. Now we could just all move on. Now he can come back, throw some throws. How about throw some touchdown passes? That's it. Listen, you know how it works with Dallas Cowboys. I mean, there's going to be something else that pops up. Now they're talking about, they can't

afford him in Zeke. So, you know, it know, we're always in the news. People love to hate us, love to talk about us. It's good to be a Cowboys fan. All right. The Bachelor. We're almost over. This is we've had a couple of bad Bachelor seasons in a row. Yeah. I mean, I would say since Becca Kufrin, they haven't been the same. We've had Colton, Hannah, Pilot Pete. Tayshia was a good one. I thought Claire Tayshia was good. And then we went back to Maddie. You're higher on Claire Tayshia than I was.

I just, Claire was too crazy for me. Oh, it was so. Sure, as a spectacle, it was good. But as an actual show where you're invested in human beings, like, come on. Nobody's, nobody's, she's not ending up with anybody. She's just not. This is why it was so great because I am not a traditional bachelor watcher. I started watching when I was on the show. So I liked the fact that with Claire, you never knew what was going to happen each week. So I was fascinated by it because it was off the beaten path of normally what happens on the back. So Claire intrigued me. She drew me in, in a way that none of the other leads do.

So, or at least these past few leads haven't. So I was into it. I was into it. I didn't see that at all. I saw somebody who decided who she liked within two seconds. They'd obviously talked before. She can say all she wants, but come on. And then... No, I don't believe that, Bill. I will argue you down on that. I do not think that she talked to Del before.

Okay. Do you believe in Santa Claus? Not even. Do you believe in the Easter Bunny? No. Can you give me this, Elise? Can you give me this? She had a lot of time in quarantine.

All the Bachelor bios are out, right? She can at least study up who's on the show. And she definitely studied up on that dude. And nowadays, unlike in 2004, everybody's got a social media footprint. So she could go through 200 Dale photos, right? And by the time she gets to the campus, she's ready to roll. She's like, that's my guy.

That's a fact. Claire, I knew of one person coming into Claire's season before it started, and that was Dale. Because I'm cool with Claire. So she had gone down a deep, dark hole learning everything she could about him. She was very into him before she met him that night. That I can admit to. All right. Well, obviously she swore you to secrecy that she never talked to him before the show, even though who knows, who knows, who knows with that Claire. Also, the other thing that I felt bad about, he was so obviously on the show just to try to win. And then he was going to parlay it into whatever. I never believed that his intentions either. I can't believe I watched the show. I listen, I love that you. I can't believe I watched this show.

Listen, I love that you're a fan of the show because if you hadn't been a fan of the show, I don't know if we would be here having this conversation. I don't know if I would be working with you, and I'm so grateful for that. Me too. You can stop now. You can stop watching the show now if you want.

No, I can't. I'm glad that it led us to this. It's led to so much comedy with me and my wife. It's one of the only reliable, it's basically a comedy. And that's what made this season so alarming is this season wasn't a comedy. All of a sudden we go into this whole, you know, circus mare of reflecting the real country and all the fucked up shit that really started last year. And it's like, how did The Bachelor become our proxy for how fucked up our country is right now? And then somehow you're in the middle of it. It's like

bonkers. I just can't believe this was the show. I want to circle back to something you said about the show being pure comedy. So am I a joke to you? No, no, that's true. I guess you're right. That's fair. No, but here's, here's, this is what I told you when I met you. You never made sense as the bachelorette because you were the most normal person who's ever been on the show. If anything, I was like, why is she in the show? Like it should, it should be, I don't know. You're normal. Most of the people who go on this, there's, there's one, one piece off, just one, one tiny thing. There's some reason they're on that's bringing them there. Maybe it's they want to be famous.

Maybe it's they've just, for whatever reason, had bad experiences finding a soulmate. Maybe it's a combination of both. Maybe they need some sort of belonging to some sort of franchise something. But with you, it was just like, all right, this is a professional working person with a really good job who could easily find somebody. I don't, it was just like, all right, this is a professional working person with a really good job who could easily find somebody. I don't know why she's on, but you

explained during the season why you did it. And it made sense. I needed an escape. I think that's one thing. I, it took on a whole life of its own, but initially I was like, I need to break free from this current place that I'm in professionally with the relationship. I just needed something different. And then, you know, I saw some things as I got deeper into the franchise that, you know, I needed a change, you know, needing a little tuning up. Well, you also unfairly, I think you just at some point people get pigeonholed by certain whatever. And you were like first black bachelorette, Rachel Lindsay, but you were like way more talented that, which was the frustrating thing watching you from afar.

Unfortunately, now we get to work together, but it is weird how people just get, it's not even a stereotype. It's like a pigeonholing. If you're the first of something or you're known for this, now you kind of have to break out and move beyond that. And that's a really hard thing to do. I remember seeing you on ESPN and being like, wait, she's on sports radio shows now, isn't that The Bachelorette? What's going on? But you broke through it. Well, I had to reinvent myself, which is something I didn't take into consideration

when I started doing all of this. When I said yes to being the Bachelorette. I remember coming out and getting an interview at ESPN and thinking, oh my gosh, this is it. They saw my resume. They know I was in sports management. I focused in sports law and law school. You know, I'm going to get my opportunity. And the first thing they said was, we love you on the show, but you know, you don't really connect to a sports audience. So, you know, we'll slowly introduce you. And so it was a year later before I even got on radio because everyone said, and even when they put me on TV for the first time, it was the bachelorette, you know, guest hosting first take. And it was this whole bachelorette theme. And so it's, it's kind of one of those things where I know I'll always be attached to

the franchise and that's fine. I was a first, I'm proud of it and the platform that it gave me. But, you know, there comes a point where it's like, you guys, there's more to it. I was a whole person before I was a bachelorette. But for some other people, they're cool with like the bachelorette. I was on the show and now I'm kind of I've spun that into my own little mini career, drafting the fumes off my bachelorette season, which is also fine because that's what they have to do professionally. But there are people out there that have done that. Yeah. I think it's the people who didn't really have, gosh, maybe didn't have their own identity before, didn't have certain things going for them. So they use the title of bachelor or bachelorette to define who they are. And that's something I never wanted to do. It's something that I did in my life. It doesn't define who I am as a person. Well, especially in those

earlier seasons, those are massive, massive audiences. You're talking early mid-2000s reality TV where it's like 10, 12, 15 million people watching beginning episodes and final episodes. I think the the first year Survivor, the final episode, that would be more watched than any Super Bowl we've had in the last 10 years. There's just things that were different back then. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Never got into that show. I think it was like 50 million people or something. But then The Bachelor was the same thing. And then, you know, gradually, what is it now? Like five, six million people plus whatever they get on streaming and stuff like that. All right. So back to the circus mirror thing.

So this starts with the Hannah B season. Which, what does? Just the bachelor entering, entering the room, entering the chat room, entering, entering the conversation with everything else going on in life. It starts with the hand of bee season. And that was the first time I didn't, I knew you dealt with some stuff when you were the bachelorette, but I didn't realize the divisions within this whole universe

and how deep it was and kind of how crazy it was. And then when you told me and Juliet about it, I was like, wow, I just had no idea. But now I think people know. Yeah. I think, you know, I, when I was in my finale and I was sitting up there on stage and I saw it, I saw it happening to me where for the first time I felt stereotyped on the show. So of course, that was the first Black Bachelorette. It is what it is. But when I turned to Peter on stage and I said,

he told me, oh, you're living a mediocre life. And I said, no, actually, I'm living my best life, just so you know. Then I come back from commercial and Chris Harrison says,

you seem upset. And I'm literally just sitting there. And then he goes, I go, no. And he goes, you seem angry. I'm like, in my mind, I'm dying because I'm like, I've just become the angry black female without being angry. And I go, no, that's a strong word. I'm frustrated. It's hard to watch, you know, what just happened months ago and relive it. And then they turn to Peter and he goes,

well, I feel like you attacked me. And at that point, I knew exactly what the narrative was going to be for me. And it's still a narrative to this day that I fight. Rachel is angry. I can curse on here, right? Yeah. Okay. Yes. She's bitch. She's a bitch. She's always complaining about something. She's so negative. Those stereotypes have stayed with me from that moment on until now. Can I be those things? Absolutely. But it doesn't define me. And that moment was the turning point when I saw the audience turn on me. And since then, I've been outspoken about it. I mean, even the next year when I saw how they did Becca's finale versus my finale, you had me on stage for three hours in front of a live audience as if I was on display,

trying to get a reaction out of me because I'm very animated. With Becca, you protected her. She was backstage, only had to come out on stage, which is the typical pattern you see. Only came out on stage when she had to talk to certain contestants. I saw how they protected the relationship that she had with Garrett despite his problematic social media behavior. They circled around him, gave him an opportunity to explain himself, and then did some of the explaining for him. I didn't get that

when I was on the show. And it was things like that that I started to notice where I was like, wow, in the words of Meghan Markle, I trusted them to protect me. And they really haven't done that. So, but I felt like they could, they knew how to exploit me, you know, certain stereotypes of, of black people in the black community. And it was that stuff that I started to realize that led to the point of where I really started to see the division and how they treat certain contestants and certain leads, which leads you to the Hannah Brown season. Well, they always call it like good edit, bad edit, right? This is not just for The Bachelor, but they always talk about, you know,

I love the challenge on MTV. There's different things for how they're editing somebody. Oh, well, I love the challenge. The challenge, Bachelor, I'm a half watcher. Are you, do you half watch shows? I know you love some of the Real Housewives shows. Absolutely. The Bachelor to me is a half watch.

I'm never like just, I'm here, I have no devices. I know you love some of the Real Housewives shows. Absolutely. The Bachelor to me is a half watch. I'm never like just, I'm here. I have no devices. I am enraptured with The Bachelor. Like, first of all, don't watch it live. Fast forward so you don't have to watch any of the commercials. And then, you know, two thirds of the times, you're just kind of looking up when something's happening.

Of course. Yeah. You got to have those shows, though. Yes, that's my Bravo shows for me. I don't have to be fully involved into the show. I gotta say I fully watched the challenge. I still really enjoy it. It's I still feel like it might be America's fifth, uh, fifth sporting event, but, um, the hand and B season for people, for people who don't know what happened. So she, where was she from? Alabama, Alabama, Tuscaloosa. And she became, I would say polarizing, but not in the typical polarizing ways initially. Right. She was, you know, re-explain this season.

Well, she was the first time that they had, you know, they always make this, this argument that they pick people from top, the top four, which is there used to be their argument as to why there had never been a lead of color oh they just don't make it far enough well when they had options to pick a lead of color they dipped back until hannah was like i don't know seven eighth or ninth person left on the season and they reach back and they bring her in. And she's presented as, I would say, the quintessential lead. White, Southern, Christian. And she was this girl next door, the beauty pageant queen who really wasn't your typical beauty pageant queen. She was billed as relatable.

She's just one of the girls. And she was just getting her chance at love okay that's and that's that's that's kind of how it was and i remember even saying hmm you know i feel like we might be taking some steps back here because i can't see this girl dating a person of color i can't see men of color going far on her season. I don't know if she's had those type of life experiences. And I was very vocal about this as well, saying I don't think that people, contestants, not contestants, I don't think we should have leads on the show who are figuring themselves out while also trying to figure out the journey.

You were going to get that word in there, of The Bachelor Bachelorette. It's too much. The show is a lot. And you can be so sure of who you are and what you bring to the table, but the show can make you question that because you're on this island all by yourself, detached from the outside world, friends and family.

So here you are with this young girl who's never really lived outside of Tuscaloosa. And now she's navigating love with different people from all walks of life for the first time on national television. This just isn't going to go well. And it didn't. But then there was a weird backlash

to the people who were detractors. And then it was on. Then it turned into, they were Hannah B. Defendant. What did she do? She had like bad social media in her past or what was it? She had some sort of smoking gun.

The N-word. So after her season was over, you know, she's America's sweetheart. The most popular bachelorette on social media. People really do love her. They were rooting for her. Her season ended badly

in that the guy that she chose, she was engaged to, ended up having this girlfriend that he broke up with right before coming on the show, which is in question. We're not sure if he really broke up with her or not. Needless to say, Hannah Brown dumps him, and now the whole world is on her side, feeling so sorry for her and rooting for her to find her opportunity. She's really on top of the Bachelor world. And then, you know, mighty is the fall because right in the middle of 2020, right in the middle of when the country is in the middle of a pandemic and there's

all this civil unrest and we're in the middle of this, of racial really unrest as well. You see that Hannah Brown on an Instagram live says the N-word, sings it in a song, skips saying fuck to say the N-word, which made it even more problematic. And there was a huge reaction to it. I think she admitted that she was a little inebriated when it happened. She kind of laughed through it, blamed it on her brother. And then the next day kind of woke up to realizing what a shit storm it was. And so I woke up to the same thing. I reached out to her instead of, you know, calling her out publicly and kind of talked her through it. We talked on the phone all day. I told her I would support her. This could be a learning opportunity. She has such a huge platform and we could talk about how detrimental this word is, the weight of this word, the history of it.

And I would go on Instagram live and support her through it. Well, ultimately she decided to side with her PR and just put up a quick statement on her story that disappeared after 24 hours and disappear from Instagram for two full weeks. And so I felt because I don't have that privilege being a black person to just not say anything when someone I'm from the bachelor community and someone from the bachelor community has offended people of color. I decided I'm going to make a video and I'm going to talk about why this word is it's so wrong and why it was wrong that she said it and why she needs to come out and apologize. And the crazy thing is, Bill, I got more backlash for being disappointed in her saying the word than she got for saying the word. That's Bachelor Nation. And that was

a defining moment that people were mad that I didn't give her new bachelor word here, grace. They love to use that word now. I didn't give her the grace and she just, she was a poor girl that just made a mistake. And I always knew the audience that I was dealing with. But in that moment, I absolutely knew not just who I was dealing with, but how that audience saw me, how I was viewed to that audience that I couldn't be offended. I was never given the benefit of the doubt, but Hannah

just made a mistake. It was just an accident. She has such a great heart. Okay, well, why can't I have a good heart? Why can't you understand that I'm hurt by the fact that she flippantly used this word and just disappeared without realizing how this affects people that look like me and my community, how she's offended so many people. And it was it was so alarming. And, you know, it was at that point, too, that I was just frustrated with Bachelor Nation. What was how the nobody really had my back. The franchise never said anything to that. I was kind of left out to dry, getting blamed for the fact that she had disappeared and left social media. Leads and contestants weren't really speaking out except for the ones of color. And I just eventually was like, you know what? At this point, I'm seeing

everything that's happening in this country. I'm looking at what I am affiliated with that's on the wrong side of things. That's this franchise. And I don't want to be affiliated with it anymore unless they make changes. And that's when I made that statement. And then five days later, they chose Matt James. I was going to say, wait, so go backwards because I want to get to the Matt James piece about this. But you're feeling this way for a while because I remember we talked about it even before the Hannah B stuff. And I just kind of never really thought about it in the way that you laid it out where you think like, oh, yeah, we have 50 states. It's almost like it's going to parallel what the country's like. But as you laid it out, I was like, oh yeah, we have 50 states. It's almost like it's going to parallel what the country's like. But as you laid it out, I was like, oh. And I guess part of my reaction listening to you is

like, why does she still want to be part of this franchise? Which I think was something you were struggling with. So why did you stay? Why were you still involved even before the Hannah B thing? That's such a good question because I get that a lot. A lot of people are like, if you're so upset, just go away. Well, I have to go back to why I eventually said yes to being the bachelorette because originally I said no. And part of the reason I never thought I'd find love. I'm just fortunate that, you know, I found Brian and it worked out, but I did it because I knew I could do it right. I could do it well. And I could hopefully open up doors and pave the way for other people of color who wanted the same opportunity, who wanted their fairy tale experience, who wanted their love stories told. It shouldn't just be monolithic and all the people look the exact same way and come from the same background and fit this prototype of who the Bachelorette and Bachelor should be in this franchise and i felt i could i could really make a difference but then shortly after the show there was no difference made you know we we went to ari and becca and

colton and hannah brown and then peter and so i was like what i'm so frustrated because i it was almost as if i was promised that too, that, oh, you'll be the first and you'll make a way. And I know that there are people who say, well, why don't you just start your own thing? But it's like, but why do we have to do that? You know, why do I have to say, oh, I'll just go since you won't do this for me and my people and other people of color, then I'm just going to go do my own show. No, like this is not how it should be.

You've been doing this the wrong way for 15 years before I came along. And you've curated this audience that won't accept me, which is what was blatantly obvious in the Hannah Brown situation. The reason this audience responds to me the way that they do is because for 15 years before I was the lead, you curated an audience that was comfortable only seeing people who look like them, who acted like them, who came from their same walks of life. And people don't like change. And so the moment that I came in and I was demanding change, people were upset about it. And we've continued to see that happen.

And so that's why I stay in the franchise. My takeaway when we talked about this way back was you didn't overtly say this, but I could tell it's what you thought. It's like, if I leave the franchise, who replaces me? Then what happens? What does the franchise look like? You almost had like a moral obligation to stay, especially after you just listed six people that followed you. And then they tried to do your ratings for the season. They were, I don't know. I don't remember what they were. I don't know if they were like spectacular.

They were lower. That was always the rub with why they wouldn't have anybody other than a white bachelor or bachelorette, right? It's like, well, the ratings would go down. We'd lose an audience. And that, how many seasons did they have before you? Like 25, 20? Yeah. Something like that. And I always thought that was the reason. I think they were, they were afraid of the ratings, which is pretty disgusting, but you know. Yeah. Well, even Mike Fleiss, creator of the show said that after Rachel's season, we learned something about

our audience in a Trump-ish kind of way. That's what he told the New York Times. So they're very aware of who it is that watches their show. And yes, to your point, if I left, then who would be the representative? But also, who would speak out? At the time when we were having that conversation, we weren't seeing people speak out. Which is why I think is what's so great about what's happening now is because the first time you're seeing contestants come together. The women from Matt James' season putting out a statement saying that we are disappointed in what we've seen. We're against it. And we want you guys to know that.

And then it had a domino effect. The men from Tayshia's season did the same thing. Then other leads who weren't just of color started to speak out and condemn the franchise for being on the wrong side of this. And I think that this day and age, you can't continue in the way that you have. I can't remember who said it,

but they said they were shocked that, it might've been Bill Maher, they were shocked that The Bachelor survived the Me Too movement. And I understand that line of thinking. The Bachelor will not survive what's happening now with the Black Lives Matter movement if they don't get on board and evolve with the way that the country is evolving. Well, we had just started higher learning when that whole thing happened last June. And I think it was like your fifth show. It was like, oh, we have a new bachelor. And it was like clear you were driving the bandwagon. They bring in Matt James, first black bachelor ever.

Seemed like a really good choice. He had some history with the show. It wasn't totally out of left field. His buddy Tyler was the most beloved bachelor man in the history of the ringer. Right. People like Juliet Mallory, still talking about him reverentially. But so they get Matt James and you think, all right, all right, this will be good. Nice guy. He'll have a good season. They'll write the ship a little bit here. And then the ship hits like seven icebergs And then somehow you're in the middle of it

And it really goes south With Rachel Who he was obviously going to pick Now the show's not over yet But she was the best choice From the first episode It was clear he liked her the most Sometimes you know it with the show

It's whoever is usually either the best looking or one of the best looking ones who's also just super easygoing, no drama, doesn't talk about the other girls, just vibes with the guy. They always pick that person. Every time.

But there were a lot of those women. I would say, I would venture to say Matt's entire top six were that way. Top five at least. Brie was like that, too. She was just...

Yeah. I thought that she was... Michelle, Brie, Serena. She was the cutest one, though, in my opinion. Oh, Rachel or Brie? Yeah. I thought Rachel was...

I thought from the first episode on, I was like, she's the favorite. Oh, Brie. And when he gave her the first date, I was like, yeah, he's into Brie. There's something automated about her.

Even when he sent her home last night... It was something that was like, he's into brie there's something automated about her even when he sent her home last night it was something it was like i obviously i'm disappointed but i i'm so happy we went on this journey and it was i think that was it there was some sort of chip missing that i just think he couldn't vibe kill to even kill for him cool and like just chill doesn't seem to be like swayed by the drama in the house or the other women. Brie's one of my favorites. Too even keeled. Because Rachel was even keeled, but also had the side where it's like,

I just know bad things happen on those other two overnight dates. Yeah, they do. And I'm going to give you the stink eye when I meet you. And I think he kind of liked the stink eye. It's a little more exciting. Yeah. I mean, listen, the men, the bachelors are so obvious when they're into their girl,

whoever they're choosing. It's the women in the house know, the producers know, the audience knows. It's like men can't hide who they're attracted to. Well, and that's why they had to have her third on the overnights, which is that's the spot you don't want to be in. You really want to be first. Second, you take.

But third is like, that's the short straw. And plus they stack the dates, right? Aren't they like in within like four days, five days? On a normal season when you're traveling, it's like Monday, Wednesday, Friday are fantasy suites and you get a day off in between. So if you're that last person, it's brutal. Like, you know, you're like, man,

at this point he's with her. Well, and they also set it up. I know what I did. What are they doing? Well, when they come back, they make it like, all right, you two sit there. And then the one who's just on the overnight is going to walk back with a shit-eating grin on her face.

That's you. I wish they would have done that during our season. Oh, they didn't do that in your thing? No, that's since quarantine. I feel like they, no, no, no, no, no. Maybe Peter's season. Peter's season was the first time I've seen that happen.

It's really smart. It brings another element of the- I would have fucked with everybody in the room. What would you have done? I would have, so the whole time during Nick's season, I kept saying, like we would dance in the house. You know, there's not much you could do.

And I would teach the girls how to like twerk and dance. And they would be like, Rachel, and I would say, well, why do you think I keep getting roses? So I would have taken that energy into the fantasy suite and out of it. And I didn't even do anything with Nick. It's like known that I fell asleep because Trump was elected the day before and I got wasted and just passed

out. But I still would have messed with them. It's a mind game. When you get to that point, it's a mind game by the end. How did you find out who was first? They just tell you like right or like right before somebody's first? I must have asked because I knew. I knew it was Raven, then me, and then Vanessa was last. It's like a fantasy draft. It's like first pick. Oh, I didn't get my homes. I guess I'll take Herbert. You would see it that way. I had Brian go last. You did? Yeah. Do you get to pick? As the lead, you get to pick based on whatever the date is. So it just kind of falls in whatever

order. Alright, so you set the order. You're like a manager in a baseball team. Based on the dates, I was like, ooh, that'd be great with Brian. Okay, that's the last date. Alright, great. So, Matt, I have way more questions about the fantasy suite, but I'm going to be responsible. You and Van.

Every week. I just know what I was like in my 20s. It just would drive me crazy. If I was one of the three guys and I was third and the other two guys came back, I would just be like, especially if you were really in love with the lady. You wouldn't. That sounds like that sounds like a nightmare yes but nine weeks of not having any female interaction like that you're just like ready for to be put in the game sense put me in coach yeah I'm hot So Matt

The wheels come off Where we find out Rachel Who was the lead thing That she She had some Bad photos In her past Yeah

A plantation party Which I gotta be honest Like I don't I don't even know What year the plantation party Wasn't horrifying Like how far

Do we have to go back 2018 apparently I couldn't But like I went to college the plantation party wasn't horrifying. Like how far do we have to go back? 2018, apparently. I couldn't, but like, I went to college in the late eighties. We, that would have been horrifying in the late eighties. I don't know what year it wouldn't have been. So I, that whole thing I was confused by,

but then it comes out, you know, we're going to get the apology tour, but somehow you're in the middle of it. And then Chris comes on extra and you do a 15 minute interview with them and all hell breaks loose. And he handled it badly. He didn't have PR there and he just decided to kind of wade in with like, here are my takes. And it's like, no, Chris Harrison, no, please. But you really like Chris Harrison though. I think at some point in your life, right? No. At some point in my life. Yeah. I mean, I don't have a problem with Chris. I just, and for those of you who did not watch the Chris Harrison interview, the reason I make the 2018 joke is because that's what he said.

It was okay in 2018, which is why I'm saying that in regards to plantation antebellum parties. Yeah. I mean, listen, Chris is when you're the lead, you get to know Chris in a different way because you're, you're traveling is staggered. And so you travel with, um, Chris. So there's a lot of downtime and you get to talking and we're both from Dallas. And so we have that in common. So, yeah, I mean, I'm not as close to Chris as a lot of leads are. Um, Several leads are really close. There's a respect there. We're cordial when we see each other, but he's not inviting me to hang out.

We're not on that level. We just both come from this same world and there's that mutual respect. Yeah, listen, how did I get back in the middle of this thing? It's wild, Bill, that I was the one that he ended up saying that to in that interview. What we do with Extra every Tuesday is interview someone about the show the night before to get their take on the episode. The episode, let me be clear,

not anything else. Never in a million years. We were supposed to have Tyler Cameron come on. He didn't show up. We ended up having Chris. And I remember thinking, oh, OK, like Chris is, oh, he was going to promote something. And I thought, you know, Chris, he's media trained. He's been the host for 19 years. We're not going to get him to spill any tea. I ask a question I would have asked anybody that day. What are your thoughts on the allegations against Rachel? And from the way he started the

conversation, I knew we were going down a road that he had at least never traveled publicly with me. Publicly, I'll say. I just was like, wow, he's really on one today. He's really in a talking mood. But the crazy thing is, is I couldn't but get a word in to kind of ask certain questions. It was like a rant. You know, it was almost as if he was waiting for someone to finally ask him that question because he really had a strong take on it and he wanted to get his opinion across. And I think he conflated two different thoughts, which is what made it so much worse. I think he was trying to say, hey, people are judging Rachel before even hearing from her, but then went down a path of

defending what she did. And he brought that together and that just messed everything up. So, you know, since then he's, let me go back to this. When it happened, I never thought it would spiral out of control the way that it has. After the interview, I remember thinking, oh, people need to hear this all the way through. And we didn't even air it on Extra. We let it live on YouTube and people picked it up. And then the reason it kept going is because then everybody was offended by it. And it got noise on Twitter. And then Chris apologized. And then the next day, you have the women from Matt James' season put out a statement. Then the men from Tayshia's season put out a statement basically saying they're offended

by it, they're disappointed, and they won't stand for these type of actions in Bachelor Nation. And then the next day, Chris announced he was stepping aside. And then that took it to another level where you had coverage from one end of the spectrum on The View to the other end of the spectrum to Ben Shapiro and everybody because it became cancel culture. That's what it was being titled. So my name went from just being an interviewer doing my job to Rachel is now a part of cancel culture. She is perpetuating, you know, the canceling of Chris and this idea that he should be canceled, which I've never said. I've never said he should be fired and I've never said we should cancel him.

I don't feel like that's my place to speak on that. Well, I stand by it. The other weird thing is he stepped down, but then he was still on the show. So like right after he's, he he's hosting each episode. It's like Chris Harrison stepped out. It's like next week on the bachelor, there's Chris Harrison. And then it's like the, after the rose special, it's like they put a little disclaimer in the beginning and there's Chris Harrison for two hours interviewing everybody. And everybody was, it's not like people were going crazy.

I, the whole thing was bizarre to me. I felt bad for you because I knew, you know, you would get pulled into it as all of a sudden. Like the Hannah Brown situation. Yeah. You're the blame game thing.

Well, I, well, here's, there's Rachel Stern shit again with our franchise. So then that whole element comes up and then this is what I meant by the circus merit. It,

it goes. And then now we have, it's different people being assigned fault games and it's like, you know, he fucked up in the interview and he said dumb shit and he should have stepped aside and thought about, I don't know if that means he should lose his job, but I get all the, all the events of, yeah, let me, let me take some time here and reflect on this. Cause that was a bad interview. Um, that's it. That's where the story ends, but it didn't. It didn't. And that's why I feel like I it's not my place to say, Oh, it, I think what's so frustrating and it does go back and maybe I didn't even think of it this

way until I'm talking it out with you, but it does go back to the way that I was treated with Hannah Brown. That Rachel must have done something to make Chris say that because I'm not given the benefit of the doubt. No one is realizing that I'm doing my job. It's that Rachel must have said something because Chris is a good man and he never would do that. And I think that's what's been frustrating with all of this is no one's listening to what I'm actually saying. No one is doing the research on their own, which is also the society we live in. People read headlines. They might see a tweet, but no one's doing the work to say, oh, she had this interview. Oh, he said this. Oh, on Higher Learning, Rachel explained what it felt like in that moment and why she was quiet. Well, Rachel Lindsay never said fire him. She never said cancel. She never even labeled him

a racist. So how is it all of a sudden that I am those things? It's because people look at me and assume certain things about me when it's a black woman versus a white man. And that's also the problem. Let me just add that. It's not Chris versus Rachel, but somehow it's turned into that. I've never made it that and neither has Chris, but somehow it's black woman versus white man. And when you do that, there are certain preconceived notions and certain biases that are attached to each one. And I lose when I match up against a white man in this society. And that's just the sad reality of it. Well, it also tied into a bunch of other missteps the show had.

So the show, they quickly decide we're going to have Black Bachelor. It definitely seemed like a June audible. I don't know if that was the plan in May. Do we think in May, Matt James was The Bachelor? I do not. I think that they decided for season 25, they were going to make it this big deal about 25 seasons, finally get a Black Bachelor.

I do think that that was the thought. Oh, so you think it was ahead of the game. Okay. Well, I think the announcement jumped the gun. First episode, or maybe it was the second one. You did a good job of covering this on Higher Learning. Matt decides, oh, there's going to be women of black women, white women. And, you know, I need to talk to somebody

about this. Like what, what the expectations of me are as a black man, if you know, I'm dating white women on the show, like I'm going to talk to Chris Harrison about this. This will be, this will be the guy I talk to. And proceed to have this awkward four-minute conversation. Meanwhile, his mom was on the episode earlier, who was white, and it seemed like that would have been the perfect person to have this conversation about. No, has it with Chris.

But you could just tell that they're trying to have this important season with the black bachelor where he talks about stuff. He's going to, things are on the table, but they didn't know how to do it because it's all white people running the show. So it's like,

Hey, should we talk to Chris? Yeah. Great idea. Then later in the, in this episode, Oh, guess who's back?

His absentee dad. He's going to come on and they're, and they're going to make up for 20 minutes. It's like, why are you doing this? You wouldn't have done this with any other contestant. You must have been horrified by that. I just don't understand how no one was in the room and said, okay, this is not a good idea.

I remember when we went back to, or going back to Chris having that conversation with Matt. At the time, we thought that was as bad as it was gonna get at the time we thought that was the worst thing here's Matt James James explaining to Chris Harrison the pressures of being black it could have been his mom a conversation with his mom it could have been him in an ITM just explaining it I think that's how they did it with me they could have brought me back to sit down and us have like lead to lead first to first, you know, first and first, like kind of like a passing the torch thing.

There's so many ways this could have gone. Okay. I would have picked his mom or you would have been my two choices. I probably would have said no, because I would have been like, stop using me as a pawn. The reason you have to keep coming back to me is because there's, there aren't many of me out there. I would have said no, but yes,

so many different ways this could have gone. And then the fact with everything, all the drama that's surrounding bachelor nation, and it has to do with race and the way the franchise has mishandled situations that involve race. You're going to have this conversation air. You have plenty of time to remove it, to figure out another way to do it. And you say, you know what? Basically, it came down to it being good TV. And I use that with quotations because it's the first time we saw real emotion out of Matt. Matt's been kind of like the same all the way through.

We saw him cry. We saw him get upset. We saw him frustrated. We saw him nervous. These are emotions we haven't seen in nine weeks. Now we're getting all of this in this one conversation. So I know why they wanted to do it.

But you weren't protecting Matt in that situation. That was a conversation. It felt super contrived. I just didn't like it. And you're right. It did bring out a side of Matt we hadn't seen because Matt, I think had been very, um, almost like an actor playing Matt James, even like the fake laugh that he has. And then, uh, and he just was presenting himself In this really confident actor way

And with the dad It was like, oh Because, you know, Dixon Me and Jimmy's agent Who's known Matt forever You know, is best friends with his daughter And he was like, Matt's a great guy Matt's an awesome guy

He's so funny And it just, on the show I think it's really tough to be who you actually are Right? Especially when you cameras never been on before. Yeah, and you're and you're just you're just going to be really careful tiptoeing Which I think is what he was doing So that was what was interesting with the dad scene was I did feel like that was the real matt, but I also thought like man This was so the wrong move We don't need to be watching this. Yeah, after all the shit that happened this season,

and then you're going to take like the worst stereotype you could do and try to get 15 minutes of good TV out of it. Like, no, don't do this. It is a stereotype that has still negatively impacts the Black community. And I get that it's a real story, but this was something they could have edited it down to not air out their dirty laundry, right? Matt saying the reasons that his

dad wasn't there, we didn't need to see that. I get that this is a conversation maybe that they needed to have with one another, but it wasn't for America to watch, especially to an audience that as we've seen, as we've talked about on this podcast, doesn't fully understand people of color. This was not the time and place to have this conversation. And I think not think I know Matt was uncomfortable in hindsight looking back and that this conversation was going to come to light. Well, so the defense of The Bachelor would be, this is a franchise that thrives on the most uncomfortable conversations possible at any time. This is what it's been doing forever. Like, what was the season when the guys switched picks? Oh, with your girl, Becca. Becca. Yeah.

And it was like, hey, we're going to, we're going to go with you to her condo and we're just going to keep the camera there. And we're just going to document this. Like, like, uh, we're filming a Oscar winning documentary as this person, the worst moment of their life is just going to unfold over the next two hours. Let's get out. You're blocking the light. So it's not like the show hasn't taken advantage of people left and right. But I thought in this particular case, given everything that happens this season, I was very surprised. You gave me the heads up. I think I would have been more surprised if I didn't know. But man, I think everybody, you know, it was I thought more people wouldn't get it. I thought

more people would say, oh, my gosh, I feel so bad for Matt. But on Twitter, people were pretty outraged at the fact that they exploited this relationship for good TV, what they would consider good TV. It was it was just so uncomfortable. And yes, even during my season, I went on a hometown with Dean and it was uncomfortable for Dean. You know, his father, they had an estranged relationship and his father was in a different type of religion. And, you know, he was I can't remember what it was called, but it was it was tough. And we had like really uncomfortable conversations. But I think the difference is that that doesn't perpetuate a certain stereotype about a community. This is also the lead in a historic

season we don't know much about matt but now you're giving us this about his relationship with his father and you could tell his dad looked ambushed like this is what you brought me here for it was it was it was all wrong all wrong don't do it again, Bachelor franchise. Probably won't because I don't know when we'll see another lead of color. Well, I'm sure there was a Bachelorette or Bachelor out of the last 18 years and seasons that probably had a strange relationship with their parent where they did not do this. Would be my guess. Yes. I don't think everybody has a perfect relationship with

their parents. And yes, this, we didn't see it in this way. So not with leads. So poor Matt. Now I know you, you can play dumb for this part because I know, you know, who he picked and probably how it ends up. Cause you know, things cause you're entrenched in the franchise. So I'm, you can just listen to me not. Poor Matt. Like this couldn't have gone worse this season, right? He goes on. I'm going to go find my wife. I'm going to, you know, make a little history in this weird reality franchise and maybe pave the way.

And this will all be great. And now he's going to emerge from this season. I'm guessing he picked Rachel. I'm guessing that's not going to emerge from this season. I'm guessing he picked Rachel. I'm guessing that's not going to work out. The dad thing was just a bummer. I'm sure he doesn't feel good about that. I'm sure he doesn't feel good about being associated with the franchise. And I'm sure he wishes, man, I kind of wish I didn't do this.

Right? I don't know. I know that Matt is struggling with the way things have gone down. I mean, this is not what he signed up for when he agreed to be the first. It's just it's just blows my mind how they have mishandled this. I mean, even during my season, when they cast a racist, people were so upset about that and rightfully so. And I didn't know it until the show was over with. But look what has happened to Matt's season. And so the question becomes, how do you make this right? You know, for Matt, for other people of color coming into the franchise, if they come in, I'm learning that people are dropping out of casting left and right because they don't want what happened to Matt to happen to them. They're uncomfortable and don't trust the way that this franchise is going to tell their stories or, or, or protect them or not at all. So I, it's, it's definitely the question that, that comes

or the, the, the, the lasting thought I feel like for Matt season is where do we go now? What happens to this franchise? We know we're going to go to another season because there's no way they're getting rid of The Bachelor. It's going to keep going. But you're, you're, so you're kind of easing out of the universe. Yeah. Where does Rachel go? Out the door. I just, and you know, a lot of people are like, Rachel, you're, you're so critical. You're biting the hand that's feeding you. And it's like, in a lot of ways, I feel like the franchise had my back and they definitely did a lot for me. But in other ways, they didn't. And I just think for me, I have to step aside and I need a break from all of this. I need to gather myself before I figure out how I want to really move forward with this franchise. And honestly, too, seeing contestants come together, specifically the ones of color and putting out a statement, lets me know that there are other people who are

willing to speak out in ways that we haven't seen these last few years. And that makes me happy. And it doesn't need to always be me. I think their statement even said, Rachel may be the loudest, but she's not the only one. And we feel the same way and we support her, but we stand for this. And I think that's so great. And they can carry it on and speak out against injustices or against things that they don't like and really make a difference in the franchise. And that's all I ever wanted to see. We left out. I didn't know how serious this got. I knew it wasn't great,

but when you deleted your Instagram, I didn't know what you were going through with some of the online abuse, which we didn't even mention, but you did that, what, two weeks ago? And you were on Instagram. You would do ads on Instagram. It was a part of your kind of portfolio and you were like, fucking them out.

Oh, I definitely lost money. I stopped podcasting with bachelor happy hour. I didn't go speak at a university. I wasn't posting ads. I've had to push those back. I had to hire PR. So it's like I come out losing money out of the situation, but I got off Instagram because I just needed peace of mind. Yeah, I was getting harassed. Yeah, I was getting death threats. I'm used to getting harassed, you know, since my time on the show four years ago, but this was on a different level. And I could tell that it was starting to weigh on me. And so I did it to protect myself. I didn't realize it was going to attract all this attention. I I did it to protect myself. I didn't realize it was going to attract all this attention.

I didn't even make an announcement. I just woke up and I was like, you know what? Not today. Disable. And then, you know, Van put out a video and got people all riled up. And people were like, are you okay? Is everything okay?

And it was really nice that people were checking on me. But I was okay. I did it because I needed to do it for me. But now I'm back. I'm back on, ready to be QVC Rach, as they call me. You have whatever you want to do at The Ringer. Just tell me. Thank you.

Before we go, though, we should talk about higher learning because we're heading toward a year. Yeah. And you've talked about it in your show, but the whole story of this pod was, it dated way back to like 2019. And we had a lunch and was hoping you and Van would have chemistry and you immediately had chemistry. And we were so excited to do this podcast and then the pandemic hit. And it was like, what? We were going to start the pod, what? Two weeks after the pandemic

started? Something like that? It was going to be like late March what, two weeks after the pandemic started? Yes. Something like that? It was going to be like late March? Yeah. Yeah. We were having a meeting. Yeah. We're going to do like a video thing with guests and then the pandemic. And it was like pause button. And like a month and a half passed.

And we started doing all our pods on Zoom. And at some point I was like, we should just, even though they don't really know each other that well, I just feel like with the Zoom thing, I'd rather do the pod than not do it, basically. So we got it going. And what's cool is it works on Zoom.

It's not what we envisioned initially, but we'll be back at some point in the studio. Can you imagine the chemistry when we're in person? Oh my gosh. It's so what we envisioned initially, but we'll be back at some point in the studio. Can you imagine the chemistry when we're in person? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. It's so much better. That's why for the rewatchables, people ask why we haven't done certain movies. I love doing podcasts in person.

I'm not doing Pulp Fiction on fucking Zoom. I'm sorry. That's why you're getting the lower level. You're not getting the OG movies. But in this case, like it's been cool that you formed the chemistry. But I think it's so funny, your relationship now. Because you guys are like family members now. It's hilarious.

I remember that lunch seemed like it was five minutes ago. Well, I thought Van didn't like me at the first time we met. And not because he was rude or anything. I think that was just my own insecurities. And he's like, I don't know why you thought that. I immediately told Bill that he thought that I was great. But that's just something within my head. But it's funny because even my friends who have known me forever think that I've known

Van for forever. Sometimes you just click with people. I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, safely, Brian was in town and it was me, Brian, Kalika, and Van, just kicking it. We've been doing it for years. And I love that. I am so grateful to be doing Higher Learning. A lot of people think that we started Higher Learning in response to George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor because our first episode was released a week before George Floyd happened. But we were still talking about Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery because we had just found out about it. Then the Hannah Brown situation happened all around that time. So people thought,

oh, these two friends got together as a reaction to what's happening in the country. And it's just crazy how timing worked because that wasn't the case. But I'm so glad we had the outlet of higher learning to discuss how we were feeling, to process some of those emotions. And I feel like that's what our listeners, our thought warriors, as we call them, have developed as well. It's like, you know, you can come to us. We're not going to shy away from any subject. We're going to laugh. We're going to cry. We're going to give each other shit. And, you know, we're going to argue like brother and sister. But at the end of the day, you can expect honesty from us. And just a realness that I feel like I listen to several

podcasts that you're just not going to get from any podcast. And so I can't believe as I'm sitting here talking to you, that it's almost been a year. We're almost at a hundred episodes. I know. I know. That's crazy. A hundred episodes. Yeah. When that pin, and now it's been literally a year since the pandemic this week, March 11th was when everything went sideways and we had a couple of really good things playing, not just your pod, but a couple other things. And then you just think like, oh, well, that's it. I guess we're not going to be able to do anything. And, you know, like anything else, we figure out how to adapt and do stuff.

But I do look forward to the day you two are in a studio and all that stuff. But it's been really fun to watch it evolve. I thought you had a great month last month too. We did a little bonus episode. You had some guests. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, we had some great guests. Got some really hot takes. Yeah, you have guests and sometimes, like with DJ Act the other day, sometimes, you're not just going to sit there and just listen.

Like you're going to be like, Oh, like you'll, it gets a little feisty on the show every once in a while. Yeah. If you know me, I don't back down. I love, I mean, I'm a, I'm a former attorney. So anytime I can pretend that I'm entering the courtroom, I'm going to take advantage of that opportunity. I did not know a lot about DJ academics. And as I was researching, I was like, you gotta be kidding me. He said this, he said this. Oh, I can't wait for as I was researching, I was like, you gotta be kidding me. He said this, he said this.

Oh, I can't wait for this. I'm, I'm jumping out the gate and I have questions for you. And I think even he was taken aback like that. Oh, you think you know who this bachelorette is? Hold on a second.

Let me tell you something different. I'm not afraid. I'm not trying to be your best friend. I'm trying to, I like, I have questions. I want to talk to you. And I think that's also something special that we bring to the interviews. You know, we have, and the topics, we cover

serious topics. We cover emotional topics. We tell personal stories as well, but then we have a lot of fun while doing it. And I think any guest that comes on our show has a really fun time. Like we make you feel comfortable. Like you're sitting at the dinner table with us, you know, having a conversation and we're just kicking it. We just happen to be mic'd up and recording at the same time. I like that. It's a really honest show. Like both of you will go, we'll go places, you know, you're like, we don't want to. Right. No, no. And, but even about yourself too, like Vans talked pretty openly about depression and stuff during the pandemic. I think that stuff's been really valuable, but I'm really proud of the show.

I'm glad we have it. I hope you do more stuff with us. I hope the Cowboys don't make the playoffs. That's what I'm going to do. A Cowboys podcast, just fully dedicated to the Cowboys. 24-7 Dak. Just 24-7 Dak. By the way, if you did a Cowboys podcast, people would listen because the Cowboys, I mean, just look at first take any chance they get to throw the Cowboys in one of

the first three segments. It's happening. It's there's just certain things that go, you've done that show. Cowboys, Lakers. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my gosh. Yeah. There's the five touch points like Cowboys, Lakers, LeBron, Aaron Rodgers, Brady. Like there's certain things you go to. All right, Rachel, check out Higher Learning Tuesday and Friday on the Ringer Podcast Network and maybe some other stuff coming down the road that we haven't announced.

That's right, stay tuned. Maybe some, yeah, stay tuned. Good to see you. Good to see you too. Thank you. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Brian and thanks to Rachel. Back on Thursday with one more.

And I will see you in a couple of days. I don't have A few years With him On the wayside On the wayside Never once said I don't have

A few years