The Bill Simmons Podcast - Best In-Person NBA Stars, Trickiest Playoff Teams, Jaylen Brown on Trial, and the Hottest Take With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: February 26, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss Nuggets-Warriors (1:52) and best NBA players to see in person (19:02), before wondering which playoff teams are going to fool everyone (46:56). Then, they fire off some "hot takes" (1:10:17) before checking in on the 45-12 Celtics (1:16:57), and sharing some NBA media thoughts (1:39:50). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Priscilla and I are going to deep-dive NBA stuff. Oh, yeah. We did segments are going to deep dive NBA stuff. Oh yeah. A lot of, we did segments. We really planned this one out. So it's coming up. First, our friends from ProJab. All right, we're taping this a little past 6.30 Pacific time, Sunday night.

Ryan Russillo is here. Sunday's with Russillo. We're back. I don't remember how many years it's been now. Five, six, seven, six, five. It's not seven. Four? No, so 18, but I was still working at both places.

I think it was 19 it started. Yeah, because you came over for the Kawhi, the shot. Yeah. Yeah, so that's what we got going. All right. Year six for us. We wanted to wait until after that Warriors-Nuggets game. We're going to cover a lot of stuff. We actually did some prep. We have segments. I'm very excited. Warriors-Nuggets, this will be fun. Nuggets, we either prove they're the champs and Jokic will just dust the Warriors like he always does, or the Warriors, who've been coming lately. You're starting to look like a stealth. You don't want to see these guys in the playoff

team. Maybe they'll throw a couple haymakers. And then Joker comes out and it's 61-61 at halftime and Klay's had 23 in the first half. This is a bad sign. Joker comes out in the second half and just eviscerates them.

Eviscerates them. I don't know, man. You watch a game like that and you go, all right. Road still goes through Denver. I don't know how many games the Celtics have to be up in the one seed. I'm not sure it matters. It still goes through Denver. That was my takeaway.

What was yours? I liked that 80 seconds into our first pod, I figured out how it impacted the Celtics. so thank you 80 it was like 40 uh you know i was i was really confused when golden state was up that big because you know the clay story's been a long story he's coming off the bench now yeah i watched that lakers game lebron didn't play so you know steph had a big night and they ran away from him at the end, but there were still moments where I was like, God, I can't believe that's Clay. Like look at Clay and you could see. And then he hit, I think his fourth three in the first quarter where he

got it on a curl and you could just see how confident he had been. And it was funny because he had a turnover on his first like touch where he looked hesitant. And then he hits a couple shots in the fourth one he hits this curl on the left side it's like out of his hands like old school clay yeah and i'm thinking like wait a minute because i guess i i've certainly between listening to you and others i think i still hold out hope that he can be some kind of asset in a rotation depending on whatever they are but when they when denver goes on a 140 run to close the first half, after all of that work they've done, it's like investing in a stock,

and you're just looking at it. It's two years later, and then the CEO tweets out a picture of his dick, and you're like, oh. You wake up, pre-market hours. It's like, what'd he do? Like all of this. He shit in his office? Two years of these gains wiped out.

And that's what it felt like. And when that happened, I'm with you. Like right when that happened, because I knew we were going to do this to lead the pod. It was a good thing to do. You know, Draymond, since it's come back January 15th, there are 11 and 5, I think, coming into this game. Number one scoring, number one assist, number one rebounding team, even though the late rebounding situation. And then you just watch the end, and it reminded me of why I wrote the Warriors off, which I felt unfair, you know, because this stretch prior to tonight's game, this stretch, it's like, wait, just like you said,

like, wait, do we have to take them a little bit more seriously? But that offense in the fourth quarter. I'm not done with that, though, to be fair. Go ahead. So last 15, they were second in that rating and Denver was 21st. And Denver just seems like they're on autopilot, waiting for the playoffs. But yet there's these little challenges along the way where they're like, all right, I guess we'll try for this one.

They did it in Boston. And the Boston game was very similar to this one, where it was halftime. And it was like, oh man, we should have a bigger lead than this. And then Denver did what they do in the second half. And it was the same tonight. I thought it was weirdly a bigger game for Denver than Golden State. Golden State's not as good as them.

They hung, they threw some punches, Jokic beat them. But for Denver, I kind of wanted to see them do this on a Sunday on ABC. And then you look at the Joker, Joker stats headed after the All-Star break, the three games. I think he had a 32-16

and 16 tonight. And I looked up, he hasn't had a game quite like that all year. The first game coming out of the break, he had like a 21-15 and 15, but went 10-for-10 for field goals. So he's on this crazy post-All-Star game pace to lock up the MVP.

Not that he cares. But I just think he owns the Warriors. Can we start there? Well, they've won 10 of 11 now against us, so this isn't news. Yeah, I think he looks at them and is like, this is great, man. Draymond thinks he's going to do Draymond. Good luck. I'm just going to kill you guys.

The Gordon Kaminga, you know, Gordon, they just put him on Kaminga. That was that. And then they have a lot of tall, lengthy guys to kill you guys. The Gordon Kaminga, you know, Gordon, they just put him on Kaminga. That was that. And then they have a lot of tall, lengthy guys to throw a curry, right? There's always a 6'6", 6'7", or higher guy with a hand up. He was one for 10 from three tonight. So it's a good matchup for them. If I'm Golden State, your goal is you're going to get the eighth seed or the seventh seed, depending on how all this shakes out.

You have to win the playing games at least one of them. Denver's the one team out of the four I don't want to see out of the top four. I'd take my chances to get OKC against Minnesota. Who's the other one I'm leaving out? Denver, OKC, Minnesota. Clippers.

I'll take my chances against those other ones but I don't want to see Denver. I know we're going to do this a little bit later, so I need a little space. I don't want to do this early in our first pod together and talking about watching Jokic live because the last three nights. We're segwaying into that. Okay. Well, you don't need to do it right now because you're right. It's a bad matchup for the Warriors. I mean, 10 of 11, what else do you need to know? And yet, when they went together on this run, and Pajemski's been better.

Kaminga's month in January was fantastic. He's not shooting as well from three in February, but now it feels like, okay, at least it's something. There are even moments tonight where Wiggins, although their offense was so bad in the fourth quarter, turnovers, missed three, Saric trying to create off the dribble on the non-Curry minutes, and they bring Curry back in. You can see Curry's just desperate, and they're just falling apart but you know you add chris paul back into the mix at some

point too you at least look at the rotation and when i did i did kind of like the five not a surprise four more teams out of respect the nine teams where if they want a title i think i did it like a month ago on the pod where you go you wouldn't go how the hell did that team you know how did that team and you know it's really five team? And, you know, it's really five. It's probably not nine. I didn't even put Golden State in a nine because I just felt like, hey, you know, the endings are bad. The endings are always bad. There's no good ending when you have this kind of run.

Do you still, despite today, look at the entire numbers for a month with Draymond back and how well Steph has played, you know, which is another topic in itself and kind of the top five guys in the league. But do you completely write them off? Because that's what I did a month ago, and I feel unfair about it, even though they got smoked in the fourth quarter today. Well, you did it a month ago, but two things happened. Kaminga went to a level that I don't think any of us were expecting. And even today's game, I know he didn't play that great, but there's a lot of Sean Marion stuff with him now.

Like there's a lot of around the rim stuff and cuts and he's just so athletic. And to me, it looks like he's starting to figure it out. And then Podzemski is the other one. What's the ceiling for him for you? Like, do you think he could make an all-star game? No, I don't know about that. But I don't know.

Starter on a real contender? How high do you go? How many floors is your Pudzimski building? I feel like he's probably closer to his ceiling, even though he's a rookie, though, because of his game. The greatest thing about him is his rebounding. If you go back to his college stats, when I was doing the draft stuff,

I'm like, are you kidding me? Like 17 rebound games. And it's actually translated to the NBA where granted it's not to that level, but he rebounds like crazy at that position. He initiates a lot of their offense. He's been awesome for him. And he's,

he's like, he's a major piece of kind of steadying prior to today. And yet when you ask me like ceiling for him, he's like he's a major piece of kind of steadying prior to today and yet when you ask me like ceiling for him i don't you know i don't like is he a starting guard on a title contender i don't know oh i i think possibly yeah because to me there's a draggage piece to him he gets a little draggagey sometimes like he'll come down and he'll do that. He'll come to the foul line. You're not sure whether he's going to pull up and shoot a 15-footer past the guy in the corner. He starts passing the guy in the corner and then he passes it to another guy. He just is in control in an unusual way for a rookie. And I like that he can play a couple of positions.

And he just seems like, from a high IQ standpoint, fits in with that team immediately. How many rookies have we seen try to come into a team, to that worst team and just seem like they're completely lost, like they're ninth graders trying to go into algebra three or something. And he's fit in. So I just think they found something with him and Kaminga. And then when Chris comes back, they're going to have a real bench, right? They're going to have Clay and Gary Payton, Jackson Davis, Looney, Chris Paul, all as bench guys.

So now they have a chance because their five-man, Curry and Kaminga, Wiggins, Draymond, and Potts have been, I think, good. So now they have this bench that can extend some stuff. I wouldn't be crazy about seeing them in the playoffs, especially because of the Curry factor. You think Curry's, if we go

it's Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka as the top four, which I don't think can be debated. Is Curry fifth? I have SGA over him at this point. I just think SGA, the consistency with SGA, at some point, we're like almost at game 60.

And the guy has a bad game once every three and a half weeks, maybe once every four weeks. Like today at 31, I would say him and Jokic are the two most consistent guys in the league. Even Giannis. I don't, I wouldn't put him. I don't know about over Luca. SGA? Yeah. Like 31 to 34 every night.

He, it's never varies. It's crazy. I was, I talked about this on my pod a couple of weeks ago. They have that game score thing on basketball reference where you can, I didn't even know how they figure it out. It might be just this arbitrary number,

but his game score, all of them are super high. And then there's like four bad ones. It's like, you've only had four bad games according to this game score all of them are super high and then there's like four bad ones it's like you've only had four bad games according to this game score how have you not had more stinkers he just doesn't seem to have stinkers ever yeah the game score stuff is fun on the playoff game log for like the superstars yeah because you'll look at some guys that you go and this guy might not show up tonight and you'd be like how did he have a 12-game score? And then he had like a 40.

And you're just like, how does that happen? And then the elite of the elite just don't have those bad games. But to answer your question, I think the problem with Curry compared to somebody like SGA is he just has games like tonight every once in a while. He wasn't good today. 20 points, one for 10, but never kind of got going. And it seems like certain teams, I don't think they think we can take Steph out, but I think they can bother him in ways that a couple of years ago, I don't think he was bothered in the same ways. Yeah. But the problem is everything else around him. Like you're watching

tonight against Denver and you, okay, the second best player for Denver is Jamal Murray and Jamal Murray can initiate your offense. Once Steph is gone, who's initiating your offense? Pajemski? And I'll give you this with Pajemski. There's moments where as a smaller player, I think it looks like he's going to get stuck deep in the paint and he still kind of figures out an angle. He has this step where he finishes with his left hand, which is really impressive. So he has some of this veteran stuff already, but I mean, we're still talking about Pajemski as a rookie is going like, Hey, this is the guy that initiates your offense.

And I think the hard part for clay is that when he was always sharing all those Curry minutes, even though they still stagger them, they closed them coming off the bench. You know, there's going to be moments for him where it's just going to be tougher than it's ever been before. And those minutes were hurries,

not out there the way they've always been in the past. So if the second, when Chris comes back though, isn't Chris going to help that? That would, I'm just kind of going with what it is right now. Cause when I'm watching tonight's game, like Aaron Gordon is going to wow you statistically all the time.

That guy plays his ass off every night. He's out there. And you know, you look at who he is now with Yoko. She's a different player than he was with Orlando, but there was also such a long stretch of his career where you were like, can this guy be a small forward ball handling guy, get his own offense? And you're like, not really.

He sort of miscast. And now he gets to play this power forward position with the best passer in the entire league. And his effort is never, ever a question. So when Steph was off the floor because they had matched the Jokic, like the non-Jokic minutes and non-Steph minutes to start the fourth quarter, and they both came in at the under eight mark, and it was like, okay, well, how's this going to look? But in the minutes when they both weren't out there, you're like, dude, it's Murray, it's Gordon, it's Michael Porter Jr. against what for Golden State? So it's not surprising. And on top of the Jokic numbers against Golden State,

like Draymond, it reminded me a bit of the way we talk about with Minnesota, right? We'll say, well, man, Minnesota has all this size they can throw at Jokic. And you're like, okay, well, look at the Jokic splits against Minnesota

and tell me where the bad numbers are. Like they're just not really there. I think there's like one bad playoff game in the five game series they had last year. And I'm not even sure if that's right because I went through it, looked at it.

Like Draymond meets them earlier, you know, does his work early, maybe makes him fight, and then you still look at the numbers and go, okay, cool. Like it didn't, you would never look at this box score saying, hey, great matchup because over the long haul of however many minutes, it looked like they were resting Draymond to try to close a close game. Like when he came back in, he'd only played 21 minutes, maybe because they knew how hard it was going to be against Jokic.

But it's just a brutal matchup for Golden State. So, like I said, I felt a little unfair writing him off like I did a month ago and then seeing him resurge a little bit. But as we're talking it out, you really think they're winning the West? You really think Golden State has a chance to win the West? I don't. I think Denver's going to win the West. So you're off the

Clippers part of it. It's never wavered. No, I just feel like It's never wavered. No, I just feel like I've never wavered from it being Boston and Denver in the finals, but I think the Clippers have a legit chance with the amount of offense they have. And some of the clutch stats with them are pretty crazy, the Clips. And we've talked about it offline about just like, holy shit, every single possession, they get good shots, the Clippers. One thing on Gordon, because I agree with you, it makes me wonder how many players just never ended up on the right team, right?

There's this other version of Gordon's career where he's fine and he's on some playing teams and a couple of six seeds, but nothing ever really happens and he makes some money and his career's over. But the way he clicks with Jokic, the way he clicks with Jokic, and then he's also one of those guys when people try to post them up, you're just watching on TV going, come on, dude, don't try to post up Gord. Don't try to think you're going to post on Aaron Gordon and get a good shot, which happened a couple times today. The Celtics, it's the same thing with them.

Don't attack Gordon. Just don't. Just stop. They also got some good Christian Brown minutes tonight, which I think if you're going to pick apart the Nuggets, what makes you nervous is just all those kind of young guys in big spots if they're down 2-1 in a series

but um yeah but i think christian brown had enough moments in the playoffs last year that you know there were some bright spots with some the downside of it being new for him but yeah i think you're really nitpicking because what murray did against the lakers or gordon look i don't like i don't love michael porter j. all the time. I think this is who he is. He's an incredible shot maker, but can be really frustrating because he gets a little one-dimensional with everything. But it kind of doesn't matter because Jokic is just in control. You talk about the Clippers getting good looks every time, and it's true.

But if you were to tell me, okay, I want a great possession, there's no one I'm taking over Jokic. There always ends up being a good look. He controls the game. And I know we'll get to this because I was in Denver for – I was in Colorado for like eight days and then stopped in Denver to watch him play the Wizards on the last night I was in town. But I just told him, I was like, whatever, it's the Wizards.

Who cares? I go, I'm only going to watch Jokic. That's all I'm going to do. I don't care what the score is by the way the scoreboard at the ball arena is the busiest scoreboard I've ever seen in my entire life so I still couldn't figure it out but you're you're just when you really we've all watched Jokic for years but when you're like hey I'm determined to only see what he's doing it just opens up all these other things that I think we're all aware of because he's so special, but it's just stupid. It's stupid how good he is when he isn't even shooting or touching the ball.

Well, you just segued into what we're going to do after the break. Our list, 2024, best guys to see in person. Coming up next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that.

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per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember.

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Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, best guys to see in person. This was inspired by you seeing Jokic and Wimbanyama in back-to-back nights. And before we went to break, you talked about, you can go see Jokic in person and just watch Jokic the entire time. And it's like going to a concert where you're like, I'm just going to watch Van Halen in the early 80s. You're like, I'm just going to watch Eddie Van Halen and nobody else. I'm just going to stare at him for three hours and just

see what he does and try to learn some stuff. Um, Jokic is the guy for that now. And there's only been a couple, really a couple guys in the history of the league that I think hit that level where you're like, I don't, I'm not going to watch anybody else who's on the court except for this guy. And you're still going to have an incredible time. So we're not doing a draft. We're just going to do our list. I made a list from – I did one to ten, actually. I told you to do one to five, but you can add a couple if you want.

Right, mid-season form. Yeah. I changed the segment without telling you, but I'm happy to stick with five. So we're just going to alternate our number one, go down, number two, all number one is yokich yeah it's yokich um can you can you let me do this here and i won't do this as long as everybody else i promise i know how much you love when i when i go a little long but i'm just going to tell you is this a rassila log yeah just and it's i'm just gonna sit here i got my i got my michael jordan dream team cup is that near mint condition oh i have i have the whole set i was gonna break out some christian latiner today but i think i'm gonna wait until a later episode when we really need the energy but

i got my michael jordan i got some water you go you do your thing a little surprise like it's almost like christian latiner's mom walked so taylor swift could run because if you are mad about taylor swift cutaways if you were around for laitner's mom during the tournament yeah you would have just blown your brains out like you wouldn't have been able to handle it if the taylor swift isos get you this upset all right so yokich against the wizards who by the way i think may have used all their timeouts in the first half i mean it was it was atrocious and it was kind of funny too because yoko just like these guys suck i'm just gonna do stuff okay well but that's what bird and magic used to be like that too in the 80s these guys suck i'm gonna just

i'm just try some shit that's exactly how it felt like they were helpless all right so was this the game where he threw the 80 80 foot alley-oop? Yeah. And I was at that basket that he threw it at. Yeah. And he rebounded one hand, never touched the ball with his other hand, and just threw it. And it was perfect. I mean, it was absolutely perfect. 80 feet in stride, Gordon gets a layup.

And it was like a touch pass. So here are the early possessions. And I promise you I'm not going to spend, I'll make this as quick as I can. All right, so he comes down. It's a pin-down screen to the left side to free somebody up to get the ball. Then he goes block to block to come up, gets a post-touch in the paint, double-team, throws it out to Michael Porter Jr. for a corner three. All right, then he runs a two-man game with Michael Porter Jr.

He screens, then re-screens kind of, but it's more of him just getting in the way. And then he rolls off of that, gets it, and then hits the floater. Then he has a brush screen hand off. Then he gets it back in the same possession, kicks it out to a three. Then he decides, like,

you know what? They're going to throw it back at me. He reposts because he has Koulibaly against him, and he looks around almost like, are you seriously not going to double and let Koulibaly defend me now with a paint touch? All right, fuck it. Hookshot goes in.

He gets another post touch in the paint. KCP kicks it out, wide open three, on a jump pass where he jumps in the air, and anybody else, you're like, oh my God, that's going to be a turnover. And he jumps in the air and you're anybody else you're like oh my god that's going to be a turnover and he knew already where everybody was it was fine the next play he's pointing the other saying i don't want the ball so he sets a back screen and then another kind of pin down and then michael porter jr gets it but yokich decides to like still move down trailing the play so the defender having to deal with michael porter jr can't

totally commit to michael porter jr because he's worried about yokich's movement on the left side and then michael porter jr hits the floater next possession back screen for murray layup never even touches the basketball um then that's the one-handed one-handed pass that he throws to aaron gordon like a quarterback then on an inbounds play he's not inbounding he's not the target for the inbound pass he He's not the target for the inbound pass. He sets up screen. The Wizards are so stupid. They don't even know what's going on, but he already knows what's happening. And he looks to be like, I'm just going to kind of get in the way here. Wide open three, Michael Porter Jr. He hits it. That's the first six minutes of

the game, Bill. That's my point. He leads the league in touches, 100 touches per game. That's how many times he touches a basketball in a game, all right? But each touch is like a split second. Okay, great, great point. Because if you look at the top touch guys, right? Sabonis is second in the NBA. Luka is third. Luka's third with 92 touches per game. Jokic, the 100 touches, leads the league. His average time he has the ball on those touches is 2.8 seconds. Luka's at 5.6 seconds. So here's Jokic. I would have guessed higher.

Right. Here's Jokic with 100 touches a game, but he's 20th in usage. He screens. He re-screens. He doesn't even want to shoot, it feels like, half the night. I cannot, like, I can't get over how impressive it is that he's that talented. His hands are perfect. His feet are just amazing.

Like, I know he's not the most athletic guy. Even watching him scramble on defense, it actually looks worse than it actually is because he's, like, working to be in position and show and recover. But the way he just moves, he already looks like he's out of breath and it's bad, but he's actually in better position than he gets credit for for six minutes. All he wanted to do was get everybody involved and it's the best way to play basketball.

That's why we ride with the Oakage. Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything you just said. I would add this. He solves stuff during the games while also kind of

seeming like he's trying to fuck with the other team, especially if it's an inferior team, which I think makes them during garbage time so much fun.

I don't see how this gets worse as the season goes along, whatever is happening with them. Because it feels like they'll go on a little run, they'll get ready. And I'm just watching this,

hoping they play the Lakers in round one and the Clippers in round two or round three. So we get to have them come into LA and go get to see him a bunch of times. Because I had an absolute blast going to the Nuggets-Lakers games last year. He's my favorite player to watch in the league and it's not even really close. So we have the same number one. I also want to mention when you see him in person,

you realize how he kind of busts his ass on some of those fast breaks. He's not like, I'm taking this playoff, I'm taking that playoff. If there's a turnover or transition, he runs and he fills the lane, even though he's kind of lumbering around with that weird Jokic stride, but he really does put the time in trying to fill lanes, being a trailer. He also, he wants to get the ball up the court. So even when he clears it out of the rebound or somebody throws him the first outlet, he'll throw up another pass. So like if he decided, Hey, I'm bringing the ball up every single time I'm stopping and I'm going to set up the offense. But it just makes me wonder, like, even though Denver, you know Denver is the four-seeded,

it's also bunched up, so there's not this huge, massive difference between, man, you guys really like the four-seed here. If you look at where they were at going into last night, they were 38-19. Last year, they were 39-18. Their offensive numbers have dipped as far as where they ranked, 12th this year, 5th last year, but it's the same output. It's just the entire league is up. And the defense this year is actually the same number, but it's ranked higher because again, the offense has gone up, but it makes everybody want to play.

And you know, you can't really stop paying attention at any point because he might throw you the ball. And if you cut, you're going to be rewarded. And if you screen for him, he might screen for you and he'll set three screens. I mean, he's fourth in screen assist in the NBA. And when you look at that number in comparison to who else is in those top 10, it's not guys winning an MVP. So when I look at like him or a Steph and it kind of gets back to like my frustration with certain teams and what am I going to let the regular season trick me into believing? I go, is the solution, is the common thread here with all those Warriors teams or whatever that, hey, it's constant movement.

It's being tougher to guard. It's continuing to cut and screen for guys because there's some special, special players in this league. They can get buckets whenever they want. But then I go, yeah, but that guy will never set a screen. Once he's out of the play, that's it. My job is done. Jokic never looks at the game that way. Yeah, it's almost more like hockey. He also does things during the game that I've never seen before. He had a play today when he had Gordon on the left and it was a fast break.

And he faked off like he was going to pass to Gordon and then did a two-step like he was going to do a floater. And he started doing the floater and then at the last second he actually did throw to Gordon I was like what just happened was that a travel was that legal how did he do you know how many times I think it's going to be an up and down and it never is it never is it never because it's never going to be you're right because he knows where the pass is going but the starting point like watching him play defense live he came out and blitzed on the pass is going. But the starting point, like watching him play defense live, he came out and blitzed on the pick and roll, stayed with the ball handler, then retreated to the corner.

But then there was somebody else there, so he had to run across the paint to close off the guy in the opposite baseline. And he threw his hands up in the air and just started waving them around. The only thing I could think of would be like, you're going out to dinner with a buddy who'd been golfing all day, and you'd go, hey, are you drunk? And he'd be like, no, I actually, I haven't had a drink. He's like, oh, okay, well, you're acting, you're not drunk. You're like, no, I just got to dinner. I didn't would never watch Jokic before, now granted in the offensive stuff, you figure it out. But I also realized like why this guy went in the second round,

because there's times where he moves around and be like, what is he doing? Like what's going on there? And you're like, actually he's in position. Yeah, there's a method to the madness. He visually doesn't look as special as all these other superior athletes that we have in the league. Well, if he wins the MVP and the title this year, and I assume he'll be first team all-NBA,

which would give him four. So last six years, he'd have four first, two second all-NBAs, two MVPs, two finals, two titles, which is putting him on pace to go into that final group, the Pantheon. What's your top pyramid again? He's level five is the last level. And he's starting to sniff it a little bit. It's like, wait, what's going on?

There's another door? How many people are on level five right now? 15, 16, 15 or 16. I can't remember. Who was like 15 and 16. Durant. I I've had him. He, he was in level five and then we sent him back to level four. And I, I don't know where, I don't know where he's going to end up. He's right there. He's, he's, he's in a door. He gets to basically, he has a cot in level five, but he has his apartments in level four, but he gets to go up and see everybody in level five every once in a door. He gets to basically, he has a cot in level five, but he has his apartments in level four.

But he gets to go up and see everybody in level five every once in a while. Which is rare, I imagine. I told you I didn't want to shoot my wad with 17 segment ideas because we're going to be together every Sunday. But there's a best players of the last 10 years argument that Jokic is getting closer. We'll do it another time.

Uh, all right. I'll, I'll go second with my second favorite guy to see in person. It's still Curry. I still like if he's in town, I want to go. And if I don't go,

I'm like, Oh man, I probably should have gone to see Curry. I don't know how many more years he has left at this level. It's like one of those. It's like, oh, pick a favorite band. Oh, they're in town again. I saw him last year. I don't know. But then you don't go and you're like, oh man, I probably should have gone. What if they break up? I don't know how many more Curry years are left, but he's another one where you can just watch him the entire game, watch how he moves, watch

how his teammates try to do those little handoff thingies with them and just how he uses his body, how he uses his body in traffic. I never get old. So never gets old for me. So I have him second. Who'd you have second? Steph. Okay.

We don't need to talk about Steph. I feel like we've spent 10,000 hours. So here's where it gets interesting. You just saw this guy in person. Is Wemby your number three? Not yet. No. Okay. Who's your number three? It's Ant. Oh, okay. Make the case. Look, I know he sucked the other night against Milwaukee but the missed dunk

he had in the lane was probably one of my favorite highlights of the week I just you know I hate to say it reminds me of somebody but he does he does move like him a little let's just not even say his name it's not even fair to

Ant or the other guy that we're talking about there's just not even say his name and it's it's not even fair to ant or the other guy that we're talking about there's just some stuff when he and his passing on these deep drives is getting better and better like it's not out of nowhere you could see some glimpses and i do think sometimes these drive passes we give them almost too much credit for because it's like hey the guys are all stationed where they're supposed to be stationed but there's times where he's getting a pass out to a corner or the break where i'm, how did he even get that out there? So, I think just the physical

moments with him, just the top 1% athleticism with him, and to tie it into that it's been one of the best teams in the league this year, that I would have Ant 3. I know you don't want to mention him.

We're not trying to put this on him. Kobe reminded everybody the most of Jordan. And in some ways was doing like a really great Jordan impersonation. Even like mimicking how he shot. It was like... Well, how about the way he talked? Like the cadence.

That was almost like weird, but... Well, it was like when we did Creed in Phillyed in philly and for rewatchables with the live thing creed has that scene when when uh donnie is watching the second balboa creed fight and he gets up in front of the tv and he starts mimicking all the creeds punches and movements in it and then you see the tv behind him and he's doing exactly that's like like the level Kobe was at with Jordan. He tried to mirror so many things that Jordan did. So he would be number one. Wade always, I thought, had some MJ in him

before his knees started to go like the second Miami year. But if you watch, especially him in 2009 when he had nobody, but he was, I thought, the closest from all the stuff he did to Jordan because he didn't really shoot threes. He just tried to get to the rim. He had that pull-up game. And then Edwards, there is moments where you get a little Deja MJ. Plus he carries himself like the fucking alpha. I'm the best looking person in this building. I'm the best athlete in this building.

I am completely unafraid of the other team. Don't trash talk me. I'll get upset. Like there's some, there's just some elements. Yeah. And then, you know, after that they had beaten the Clippers and,

you know, you can take all these top teams like, Hey, what about that outcome? What about that outcome? Right. Cause I thought that win for them was huge. And you know, the way the Clippers had just been beating on everybody for two straight months.

But then the weird part about calling out the Clippers and them being old, and then when Kawhi was asked about it, Kawhi almost downplayed it. And I don't know if that's just Kawhi who doesn't want to talk to anybody, or if there was any element of it being like i'll let ant mess with us like i'll let that guy mess with us because he's him uh and i don't mean that the mean way and then the other funny thing from all-star weekend was everyone can't like they cannot wait to show off their fits and he's in a hoodie like i don't even care right i actually was hoping he'd be the guy who's like i'm gonna be the one guy that cares about the all-star game, but he actually went the other way. He's like, I care the least. Actually,

you think Luca, it's actually me. I care the least. Um, okay. My number three is, uh, is Wemby just because it's new.

There's a new car smell to it, but did you go on Friday? I didn't go on Friday and I regret it because I had some parent stuff. But I am excited to see him do his thing. And especially it feels like he's starting to put together the off the ball stuff. The I'm not really involved in this play.

Oh, wait, I am. You can see the other team is starting to really think about him profoundly when they're within 25 feet of the basket. All the stuff that was frustrating about him in summer league in the beginning of the year, where it's like, dude, you're seven foot five. Just traffic cop the rim a little bit more. You're not a small forward. Stop with that. You're seven foot five. It feels like he's figured out that part. And then there's so much in his game that's just terrible right now. His pull-up jumpers are awful. And I think he might have the lowest pull-up jumper field goal

percentage in the league. But then there's some fluid spin moves and stuff in traffic, and he's dunking, and you don't even realize he had a chance to dunk and he's not even jumping. I just haven't seen enough of it yet. I wish I liked watching his team more. But I want to see him in person a couple more times this season. Yeah, in person, it's a different experience. Yeah, so what'd you see? Tell us.

Well, you could see just there were different times when guys in the Lakers, like Austin Reeves got caught on a screen once with him. And it was just like, what? Are you kidding me? I'm supposed to get through this? Can you give me a broom? And then Reeves thought he had him on the left side for a layup.

And I love that he tried, but it was like Wemby almost as he was going up, he's like, are you seriously going to try to do this? Okay, whatever. I'm taking this. He stripped LeBron in transition, which I couldn't believe. You're like, what? There's just the rest of,

it's almost more fun watching the moments of everybody else that's on the court and the opponent. Right. We act like the experience of playing against Wemby. Yeah. Are you serious? And then, you know, in the second half guys just aborting and like, they'll beat their man off the dribble. it right we act what the experience of playing against wimby yeah are you serious and then you know in the second half guys just aborting and like they'll beat their man off the dribble they go whatever like i'm just gonna curl i'm gonna curl back around and when you add up all

the blocks and the steals and all like those numbers and he went by the way he went crazy in the first few minutes and it was funny kind of just sitting in the stands because for so many people it's the first time they've ever seen him. And then like other people that aren't super into the NBA, they think they're watching an alien. And you hear like somebody asking the boyfriend being like, who, how old is this guy? What's his deal? Like, oh, he's this French kid. And then they're like, how old is he?

You know, somebody else would be like, oh, I think he's like 25. Like, oh, wow, he's going to be good. Somebody else is like, no, he's he's 20. Now he's going to be the best part of his generation. So he lit it up. I mean, I think he had 11 points in like his first, his first rotation there of like six minutes or something, because he was hitting threes on top of everything else. But there's usually like every few possessions,

there's a moment where he's the only guy in the world that can do the stuff that he's doing. So him being fourth, I don't have a problem with it. I just, I think, cause the new part of it and wondering what it will be like that night i can't imagine being a spur season ticket the number of things that you've seen through this course of the season with him is just stuff you've never seen before so yeah so you have him fourth you know what i'll put him down fourth i, I'm not trying to mirror you here, but... I had a first.

Look, I landed in LA and had been gone for eight days. And in a million... I'm not going to a basketball game that night. And instead, it was Wemby, and I was like, I'm in. Right. You know one thing that I've been impressed by watching him a little more, where I was really having trouble watching them, but lately they've been more fun to watch. He's less, clumsy is not the wrong word, but you know how Porzingis has three times a game where you're convinced his season's about to be over?

Yeah. Like he jumps, he lands in traffic or he hits knees with somebody or he has like a stumble and you're like, oh no. Wemby doesn't have as many of those as I thought he would. I thought it would be a little clumsier, but he's really coordinated. I don't know how to explain it. It's almost like a ballet dancer. He knows where to land and where to go and he avoids trouble more than I thought with that stuff.

Because usually the tall guys, they're just a constant, some sort of dumb, stupid, knocking knees into somebody's hip or stepping on a foot or whatever. He doesn't really have them. My number four is still Giannis. I still have Giannis in my top four

for going to see in person just because I love how hard he plays. And he is one of those that in person feels different than on TV. In person, you get the size, you get the crazy, like his crazy length with his arms.

And he does have those moments where you're like, fucking A, how does anybody stay in front of this guy? So I'd still enjoy seeing him and I would have him fourth. Yeah, basically everything we just said about Wemby, it's not like Giannis isn't, it's pretty close to the same experience.

Yeah. Sitting there for the in-season tournament games and seeing it live and having those seats, there's just, it's the same thing. We were like, I can't, I can't believe the guy picks up his dribble from there and is at the rim. There's just moments

where you're helpless. The opponent, you're absolutely helpless against them because he's going to find a way. When he's really trying, you're always like, how are they going to beat this guy when he's trying like this? It's always surprising. Who do you have for number five? Probably Ben Simmons because it's such a treat just to watch somebody dribble the ball up the court because he's playing so you're like hey run under the basket i've set my notifications the next off season for the ben simmons is back summer. I'll probably go with...

You know what? I'm just going to go with it. I wrote it down. I think Zion in person, even though the time we saw him in person, it was terrible. You can't quit Zion. I can't.

I can't. He had a great block down the stretch today. Yeah, they lost, though. They lost. I can't figure that team out. They have the guys back, and then they lose. Well, they didn, though. They lost. I can't figure that team out. They have the guys back, and then they lose? Well, they didn't have a point guard

tonight. They didn't have McCollum, and then Alvarado got suspended. So it was like Herb Jones and Ingram and Zion bringing the ball up. Yeah, but they get smoked by Miami. At one point, I think late in the second quarter, they were 8% from three, and Miami was 64%. Every time I want to get excited

about them, but I'll just tell you as far as watching it, point Zion is, is still one of my favorite things to watch in the league. So there you go. I have SGA number five. I really had an absolute ball watching him in person earlier this season against the Clippers. And I want to see him again.

I hope, you know, it's fun. Cause both Laker, both LA teams are on play for playoff series. And I want to see him again. I hope, you know, it's fun because both Lakers, both LA teams are on play for playoff series. And I really hope OKC is going to be one of them.

But his herky-jerky stuff that he does, I'm not tired of it yet. So I had him, I had Durant six and I had Edwards seven. So I gave SGA the nod. You'd rather watch SGA than Ant?

Yeah. Listen, top seven is solid. It's not like I kicked him in the curb. He's the better player, which no sane person would debate, but I don't know about that. I like watching how cool and calm and efficient he is,

how he runs that team that's just this young team that should have no business being on pace to have like 58 wins. And then in crunch time, he takes over everything. But I also, I have a little bit of a personal connection because I watched him as a rookie.

So when I see him now, I'm just like, I love basketball and I talk about it and write and used to write about it for a living. And I did not see any sign that this was going to happen. So when I'm watching, I'm like, how did I not know this? So I'm going back almost to that 2018 season. Like, man, I just thought this guy was going to be like a really good defender and knock down some open threes. How did I miss this? But I think everybody feels that way. Although Doc's now taking credit for seeing it

the whole time, which he did on my podcast. And I do think Doc tried to talk them out of throwing him in that trade. I do think that's legitimate. Twitter doesn't like Doc. So I think even if Doc had a point to make, it just was going to turn into the same

thing like when LeBron says, you know, but LeBron has bad ones on his resume as far as pointing out. I don't think Doc is in that role. He's the league leader in the clubhouse. We didn't pick Luka. Are we so conditioned

to how absurd he is that we're taking it for granted and you didn't even put him in your top seven? I had a mate. Okay. It's, it's the mono ball that I just,

you and I are aligned on that. The heliocentric. I don't like watching. I actually, I thought, I thought about putting Kyrie over him from the standpoint of when you see Kyrie in person and he actually cares, it's always amazing.

You just see things like, oh, nobody else in the league can do that. Oh, he just went into the lane and just did a running lefty layup that he lofted off the shot clock and it went in. But I don't like when one guy has the ball all the time. I felt that way with Harden. I felt that way with Westbrook. I feel that way with Luka. I know it's working. I know he's unbelievable. But it's just not for me. It's not my kind of basketball.

Where is Luka on your MVP ballot? Let me look. Because I actually did it. I had a little MVP list. And I'm top five. So is that SGA too behind Jokic I have Jokic SGA Luka

Giannis Tatum a distant fifth and that people are trying to get some Tatum MVP stuff going it's like come on I love the Celtics I would never in a million years make the case for him yeah the Tatum MVP stuff going. It's like, come on. I love the Celtics. I would never in a million years make the case for him.

Yeah, the Tatum push has been weird the last couple, I don't know. Is it a week or something? And look, he said he was the best. That's fine. That's what you're supposed to do. I think the weird part for Tatum is that I went on a cowherd show

and he was kind of knocking a little bit. I was like, look, if you want him to be one of the top four guys, I'll tell you that you're right. But where he's at is pretty good. And if the Celtics find a way to pull it out this summer, then the shows that next morning will say like, hey, is he actually the best player in the world? There's no way a full season from Jokic I could ever fathom voting for Tatum over Jokic. I don't even think I'd vote for Tatum over Doncic. If you're doing that as a segment on your

show, then that means it was a boring week. We're going to take a break and come back with another segment. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. All right.

This segment is called, Which Playoff Team is Going to Trick Me? This was your idea. It's inspired by the Cleveland Cavaliers of last year, who everybody got excited about as, Oh man, I know they're young, but who knows? And then the Knicks just punched them right in the mouth and knocked them out of the playoffs. And that was that. So we have

just an unusually high slew of candidates for this this year. I'll read all the candidates after, but I'll just ask you, which team do you think out of all the obvious suspects, which one is going to trick you? Who do you have your guard up with right now? Okay. Well, are we talking like real contenders or because we could just pivot this into Cleveland right now. All right. Listen, it could be whatever you want. Which playoff team is going to trick you is either, oh, I think they'll, they'll win a couple rounds and they fall on their face from round one. Or, oh, I think that team, like the Clippers, oh, I think they could actually win the finals.

And then they're down 3-1 in round one. You're like, oh my God, I can't believe I fucking fell for this. So I had a stretch. This is pretty classic for me, where as soon as I point something out, the opposite happens. And yet, I always feel better about the long play of the thing I said. It's kind of like my Tua looks like a backup. against Baltimore the next week or something. Long-term, it was a far more reasonable approach, even though, look, he's probably going to be started for a while. You get my point. When I did a big Oklahoma City rant about how amazing they were, then they lost some games, and then I did a big love fest for the Knicks. Granted, they're still missing Randall and OG, so it's a little different, but they had gone on this tear. You know, the Clippers, I don't look at them. I look at them finally like losing a couple games after having that, what were they, 27-6?

I mean, when they beat the shit out of Boston the way they did, I thought that was the most impressive single-game ass-kicking of any game that we saw this season, especially when you factor in schedule and everything that happened in time off before. So I felt guilty also, to use the word again, about not really doing any kind of deep dive 10-minute monologue on the Cavs. They went from 18-15 to 35-16, 17-1 from January 3rd to February 10th. I watched a bunch of those games. Garland Mobley only played seven games

out of those 18. Mitchell, who I wanted to vote an all-star starter, but he had played 30 games in comparison to where Brunson and Maxey were at. So I just couldn't do it, even though I thought his numbers were better. And the entire time that I watched them, I went, I know I'm supposed to say, hey, look out for the Cavs, or we need to talk about the Cavs more. But I just couldn't get there. And I don couldn't get there. And I don't know if it's because of being tricked by them in the playoffs last year, thinking they'd have this back. Yeah, so I don't know what they could do for me to go,

yeah, I could see them in the Easter Conference Finals, although considering they went 17-1. But the other thing that happens too, and this is a pretty common thing, is you go fill-in-the-bl base, has like a nice two or three weeks. They get pissed that none of the national guys are talking. Chests get puffed. Right. Yeah. You get real chesty for like two or three weeks.

Yeah. And then I'll dig in and go, yeah, I don't know. It might just be the schedule. You might just be home a lot. And, you know, Cleveland over that stretch. Oh, my God. Cleveland had like seven or eight cream puff games. Didn't they play Washington three times?

Of the 18 games, they played 10 non-playing teams in the standings as of today. Yeah. They played. It was a who's who of shitty teams for one stretch there. And then they lost that Philly game right after the Buddy Heald trade, which was like, I think it was a Monday night. It was on NBA TV. And then they lost that Philly game right after the Buddy Heald trade, which was like, I think it was a Monday night. It was on NBA TV.

Well, they were due. They were probably due to lose to somebody at some point, because like 17-1 is still 17-1. But I feel like because of last year, I was like, it doesn't matter. And the weirdest part too, that Mobley and Garland missed

11 of those games during that streak. So then it's like, wait, is something else baked into this? Or was it, you know, them finding a way to get a bunch of these wins and not the toughest part of the schedule? But see, then when I bring up the strength of schedule part of it, it's like, dude, they still went 17 and one back off. But I guess I never did that segment.

They caught Milwaukee three times right as Milwaukee's coach thing was unfolding. They might be the two seed, ironically. They're number one in net rating in the last 20 games. Milwaukee's going to catch them, right? They have to. I said, might they have a chance. They have a chance to hold off Milwaukee. Milwaukee's had a really good weekend.

Um, the, the weird thing to me, and I don't know if this is going to change now that all these guys are back, but you would think their best lineup Cleveland is Mitchell and Garland with Struess with Mobley and Allen, right? That's like their crunch time. Those are the five guys heading into this year. Those were the five. And they're plus four net rating and not even close to being one of their best lineups. And I don't really know.

I was looking. I was on their site at NBA.com, and I was doing two-man and three-man and four-man. I was like, if we take out this guy, what happens? If we take out this guy, what happens? For whatever reason, those five guys haven't played well together. And if they're not going to play well together the rest of the year, I don't know how they're going to win two playoff series. Because I think that's their best lineup. There's a world where Mobley's not in the best lineup.

Yeah, that was the other realization, though, that we had last year. You go, I wonder if in the playoffs where this whole two-headed monster with the bigs and these amazing defensive numbers that they had, you know, over the stretch of those 18 games, they were the number three offense. They were the number one defense. Their net rating was number one. They were plus 17 in net rating when they went 17-1.

New York was number two with plus 11. That's a massive, massive gap in a net rating number. And I go back to some of the times where it looked like they got so stuck on offense. It's like, wait, if you have two bigs that no one's afraid of defending,

does that ruin what should be... And you replace Mobley with like Wade or LaVert. That doesn't make any sense. Anybody who could shoot. Yeah. Right, but it might be true. It's two guards with Allen and two shooters and maybe that's their best lineup,

which if Mobley's not going to be in their best lineup when we get to the playoffs and all that, then that opens the door for like, hey, we're going to give this guy $250 million? He couldn't even be out there at crunch time. I'm still a believer. I'm not selling my Mobley stock, but to me, it's more of a question of

can you play Mobley and Allen together? We're still not positive that that could be a playoff successful thing. I'm going to give... Right, but Mobley's definitely an adjusted ceiling guy, okay? Yeah, if he's not going to be able to shoot, then that's a game changer because if he's not going to be able to shoot, then that's a game changer.

Because if he's, you know, if, if he's just an around the rim, offensive rebounds, defense guy. And by the way, I signed up for,

I know people will throw his, his February numbers at us, the shooting numbers. Cause he's 57% from three. That's on one and a half attempts per game. So, you know, okay. That's settled. That's on one and a half attempts per game. So, you know, okay, that's

really cool that that number looks good, but it's not actually like something that's happening. My playoff trick team is the Dallas Mavericks who we have me and Sal and House and Hinch we put a little, we did a little

division bet on them. I got excited about them and then I watched Indiana just spread them out and annihilate them today with multiple guards. And Luca and Kyrie together are at almost 60 points a game when they both play, which is a lot, even in this adjusted weird world we live of basketball stats, but I'm just thinking about them in a playoff series and Exum's out there, Josh Green and a rookie center playing in the seventh, eighth month of his year. Gafford has never been in a big series before. P.J. Washington, who I don't even really like.

And I wonder if maybe I overreacted to some of their February stuff. Because the Indian game, now granted one game, but I just wonder about them defensively against the wrong team. With that said, I do like watching them more than I ever did,

but this feels like a trick team because I think they're going to catch New Orleans and win the division. They're probably going to be a five seed, would be my guess. And I think they'll get some buzz as a sleeper. It's like, oh, if you don't want to take anyone in the top four, what about Dallas?

They got Luka. He's the top five player in the world. And now they have two guys who can rim roll and they have some shooting. And Kyrie, watch out for him in the playoffs. And I could just see myself getting sucked in, is my point. can rim roll and they have some shooting and Kyrie watch out for him in the playoffs and I could just see myself getting sucked in is my point yeah it's a good pick um they went from eight and two to eleven and eight

to 26 and 23 to now 33 and 23 before the Pacers lost where the Pacers just smoked them in the fourth quarter um today like Kyrie really got it going early in the fourth, and it didn't really matter defensively. You know, it's just not good enough, even though when you look at their numbers since January 1st, across the board, they're not, like, crazy impressive. They're 11th on offense, 13th on defense. Kyrie's shooting numbers have been terrific. I mean, Donchich, there's just no part of any breakdown in him

where you're not like this, you know, he's incredible. And I like Gafford a lot. And their lack of depth, they could probably use a P.J. Washington even if you don't really love him. But the problem for them is when you start, like, really digging into how well they've done, they've played more home games than any top 18 in either conference. Yeah.

And they're also at 15 and 19 that's the worst record against 500 and above teams in the West. So of the top 8 teams in the West, we know it's 10 with the play-in, they have the worst

record against the best teams. And that usually tells me like, okay. Never a good sign. Right. And they had some, you know, they beat the Knicks after Randall got hurt. They got to play the Wizards. They got to play the Spurs. They're 17-6 in clutch games too, which is okay. Is that because Luka gets you the best single look at a bucket, which I think is right. So that's the case for them though. The case for them is two guys who can score at the end of games. And if they could just keep it close in the last four minutes,

now you're matching baskets with Luka and Kyrie, which is a problem. And by the way, in a playing game, I'd be scared to death of Luka. I'd be more scared of Luka than Phoenix in a play-in game. Agree. Which playoff team is going to trick me going the other way? I'm just down on New Orleans and Phoenix, and I feel like I

might be reverse-tricked. I just don't believe in Phoenix. I know they won tonight. Nurkic was really good. Nurkic also sucked two nights ago. Beal's been hurt three different times. I just don't totally see it. I know they have two potential All-NBA guys, but I just

don't see it. Then New Orleans is the other one. Just New Orleans and close games, I can't do it. I've just watched it too many times. I'm not going to trust them. I might get burned by both of those teams is my point because I don't trust either team. You're more down on New Orleans than I am, but I think the argument is stronger in your favor because like I said, they've missed guys in certain points. Sometimes I'll be like, are they better when they don't have all their guys? And you're right, like missing both guards tonight after the fight against Miami.

You never know with Chicago. Chicago's in tight games literally all season long. It's a joke how many close games they've been in the last couple of weeks. But it started to feel like Phoenix had turned the corner. When they beat Milwaukee, they lose to Golden State on the Curry shot. They beat Sacramento.

And then this last week wasn't great until the win against LA today. But I don't know what to do with any of their numbers. To me, they're all irrelevant. They're 14-8 into 22 games with KD, Booker, and Beal. So if 22 games is what I have to go on, I haven't seen enough.

I cannot write them off because I think Royce O'Neal was terrific today. He's like a real guy for them with their rotation. There's times because I think Royce O'Neal was terrific today. He's like a real guy for them with their rotation. And there's times where I think they can get a little too mismatched, hunty with it. But I thought they were missing good shots when it looked like Lakers were going to get back into this game tonight where it was like, okay, try to get D'Angelo Russell into anything with Durant.

Try to get Austin Reeves on Booker. But ultimately it comes down to can those guys win their mismatch without Beal and then the shooting of Neal and Allen. And Allen's knocking down everything. And then it's just up to Nurkic to try to keep the other guy honest, even though it felt like Anthony Davis.

I did not see the Grayson Allen turning into the best shooter in the league thing happening. He's been awesome. I feel like every time he takes a shot, I think it's going in now. Like today, I thought, every shot he took, I thought he was making it.

It makes you wonder, like some of these, you don't want to call him late bloomers because he was a first round pick. Like he was in some games. He had some success. It's not like he came out of nowhere. But these shooters who have a scoring background in college,

they get to the pros, they get pigeonholed a little bit. But then something different will happen with them in their late 20s. And they'll start. It happened to JJ too, right? Remember, JJ was on Orlando forever. And we were kind of waiting for him to get going. Yeah, I don't know the coach did him any favors then because he didn't want to play him. Yeah, that's true. But to me, I couldn't shake the Celtics series out of my head where it was like, please keep Grayson Allen out there.

Every minute he plays is good for the Celtics. And I think he's been a real asset for Phoenix. I still don't trust... I don't trust Nurkic to stay healthy. Yeah, I think he passed his career game high of the last six years, either today or in the next game. I just don't... I don't see it with them. It feels like something's missing, and I know that that's terrible analysis,

but when I watch them, I just don't see them in the Western Finals. And I don't really know what I'd change. The fact that they don't have a point guard, I don't see them in the Western Finals. And I don't really know what I'd change. The fact that they don't have a point guard, I don't love. But a point guard would get in the way of what they're doing. I get it. Booker's so good, and Booker had to play point guard in the past. I think that's one of Booker's great strengths is when they were bad.

Remember when they went from three point guards to none in a couple months? Is that good for him though? I think it was good for his development of who he is now. But I'm saying right now at this point in his career, I'd kind of rather have somebody set me up than having to run the offense for me. I don't know. I don't know. I just think he's so good at coming off the screen and keeping somebody on his hip and then finding a way to pull up and it's just unstoppable. Like his footwork, getting into his mid-range jumpers and the way he figures out space and all that kind of stuff sometimes i

wonder like if a point guard would get in the way all those things and i think the whole point was that beal initiates duran initiates booker initiates so why would you have a point guard unless he was somebody that was just an incredible shooter but i get it i i don't like you could hey there's this number in the fourth quarter numbers, which is super alarming with them. So it was nice to see them hold off the Lakers today, considering the history they've had in these fourth quarters. But when the version of them has only played 22 games, the numbers of where they rank now are just,

they're just irrelevant to me because it's not exactly, it's like not a fair representation of who they've been. Cause that's not what we're expecting. Although Beal and to the point of the contract and in the transact, he misses a lot of games. He just misses a lot of games. And now this is his fourth injury, even though it looks like he's going to be back Thursday. So that was what they were saying. Well, that's why they might trick me because I don't see it, but I don't really have a rational reason other than I'm not a huge fan of a team that has no real point guard. And then Nurkic is their center, even though he's

great tonight against the Lakers. Any other trick teams for you? Are the Clippers going to trick us? I think they already did. We had them on the short final. No, I'm just saying, I have them on, I still have them on the short list of teams I could see in the finals. And it would just be funny if they lose in round one and Harden goes six for 28 but see I think they get bounced and we're like whoa how did I see this but Harden won't take 20 like there's no scenario now if everybody's healthy where he'll have to carry a team so he can have an awful Harden playoff game and it's not going to matter as much as it did in the past where if he was the two with Philly, one with Houston.

So that's part of it. Now, if you're telling me they have full health, this Kawhi season and what he's been like, I was looking at the hustle stats the other day. I think he has the most total loose balls recovered. Yeah, this guy at this stage of his life, even though it was a little scary, like this guy's in a minutes restriction during the All-Star game. Like what's going on here? Him and Paul George. So if you're telling me it's a bad health bet i agree um and if you're telling me like hey you're you're the guys that bring up hard in the playoff stuff all the time and now you're buying back into them so that's why when i did that whole segment of going like i think i'm

there with it but it was just it was so incredible for two months and i know you know they've kind of split a bunch of games here recently but they were due to have some kind of downturn. They were going to keep up that pace. I had Kawhi. I turned in a ringer top 100 list last week or a week and a half ago. I had Kawhi as the sixth best player in the league, which I felt really good about.

So you had him ahead of Curry? No, I had him right behind curry and yokage yannis luca shea curry fifth kawaii sixth okay uh can i throw one more into the mix here for a trick team just because the reason everybody's gone yeah nice record but record, but whatever. And that's Oklahoma City. Hmm. Because, as you know this, I went through the top 10 youngest teams

to ever win a title, and you've got the 15 Warriors. So there is something in the modern era where you can go, it's not impossible. You need a lot of luck with the rest of the league is what needs to happen. And they're not going to get that luck this year with some of the teams.

Yeah, because I think when you look at the West this year, you kind of look back to last year. You're okay. Memphis falls apart. New Orleans falls apart. Sacramento is like, hey, cool story. But they're a specific matchup team. Yeah.

You have Golden State get him in the first round. And then the Lakers deal with this Memphis disaster. You know, Denver's kind of, I don't know if you'd say they're challenged against Phoenix because Phoenix is like trying to figure it out all last minute. And you had to have those two absurd Durant-Booker games to even make that series competitive at one point. But I never really felt like Denver was, you know, once it played out, I was like, hey, Denver's going to win this thing.

So then you have Denver going through a Lakers team that had a great matchup in the first round, a great matchup in the second round. And then Denver just kind of gets through it all. And then they smoke a Miami team that was one of the most surprising finals team of my NBA watching history. And now you go, well, where's the easy path? Like, it doesn't feel like there's the easy path. And Oklahoma City, like they've got all these great numbers. The one alarming one with them is why I was a little surprised there wasn't somebody to add at the deadline is their 29th, I think, in rebounding rate, which would check out with the eye test because of just not having enough depth or enough beef up front

as great as Chet has been. And Chet Insurance, we talked about that when we did the trade deadline pod. I can't believe that got outbid for Gafford. I would love to know the explanation for that. It just feels like whatever Dallas gave up, OKC could have thrown in an extra 20 cents on the dollar and just gotten them. But it seems like they're really, really sold on this whole everybody on their team can

have the ball and move and cut and handle. And they don't really have guys like that on the team. It's just a philosophy. But here's the thing. You look at them against Minnesota, they're split the four games. They're two and one against the Lakers. Kawhi did miss one of those. They're three and one against Denver. Jokic missed one. Gordon missed one. Whenever I'm doing the season series stuff, it gets really frustrating now, even though guys have been playing more games. It's not even worth it. Well, here's what I know, is that against the other top teams in the West, they've held up

really well. So you can go, all right, well, the age thing, at least there's a Warriors example, and the rebounding number's scary, but look how they've done against these other big teams, and maybe they can spread a team out and win 4-7 and all this kind of stuff. But the other thing that I look at with them is they go, their guys

play. Their guys play all the time. The five starters, right? Those guys have only missed 10 games. All right. This was part of my case for them going 50 plus wins. Young guys play. Okay.

50. The over under is perfect, but does that mean they're playing at like a maximum, a level that's like, are they closer to their ceiling now in a way a Denver isn't or the Clippers aren't? Or whatever you think of Minnesota or maybe Milwaukee is a great example of this in that regular season, as we know how different it is tricking us. So you mentioned the 2015 Warriors. You go back and look at the league that year, the final eight in the East,

Atlanta defeated Washington four games to two to advance to the East finals. Washington was a final eight team. And then Cleveland beat the Chicago Bulls four to two. The Chicago Bulls who had in that playoff series, Jimmy Butler, Derek Rose coming off of knee surgery, Noah, Mike Dunleavy, old pal Gasol, Taj Gibson, and Nikola Meritage. That was their top seven. And then in the West, Golden State beat Memphis four to two

in that series. Remember, Memphis went up 2-1, and then they started just leaving Tony Allen wide open, and the series fell apart. Print the shirts. Remember it well. The other series was the Houston Clippers, the Josh Smith-Corey Brewer game when the Clippers were about to advance to the West Finals, and then it didn't happen. My point is the league was, I think think significantly weaker than it is this year.

It's a, it's no contest. I don't know how many of those teams you would even say could crack the top eight. Now maybe golden state. I was looking at that quipper team. Cause I was trying to, after all the JJ first take stuff and Pat Bev was going at him and I was

like, who was on that quipper team? And it was Blake, CP, Jordan, Redick, Barnes, Crawford, Austin Reeves.

Can you name their eighth man? No. In the playoffs, it was Glenn Big Baby Davis was their eighth man. And Spencer Hawes coming in to give them some minutes. Was it Rivers? Rivers was their eighth man and Spencer Hawes coming in Austin minutes was it Rivers Rivers was their seventh man I

mean they had Hito Turkoglu played he he touched 11 games that year for them when Turkoglu was done he said depth he was done the depth but you brought up that Noah series against the Cavs I thought he was gonna die in that series not like Deleva Do level like delavadova almost died in the 15 finals just hustling which is an incredible stat uh but yeah you know noah never played noah turned out he went from like i can't

stand this guy to i want him on my team forever. And at that point with Tibbs, he was like, I might want to end his career because I just remember Noah trying to run back. And that was it. He never played in the playoffs. He played 48 seconds.

Pretty weak time. The rest of his career. Let's take one more break. We're going to do hottest takes and we're going to talk about the Celtics. All right, so we're going to start a new segment, at least for some of these Sundays, where we do a hottest take

modeled after the hottest take podcast that we did. You can go find them. They're really fun. It's basically you're arguing a take. You don't have to necessarily believe it, but as you're making it, maybe you do believe it. Maybe you believe 50% of it.

Maybe you believe 30% of it. Maybe you believe 30% of it. Maybe you believe 100% of it. We thought it'd be fun to do this, say these takes, and then the next day or two days later, it gets aggregated like they were a real take that didn't have this set up. I don't think you even want to do the segment as much as you want to see somebody aggregate

this. The aggregation culture in 2024. I don't know if it's ever been stupider. So I'm excited for that part. Anyway, do you want to go first? No, I want you to go first. Okay. Mark Cuban, 2006.

The Mavs blow that heat series and the officiating had a big part of it. And Mark Cuban went on a, like basically a jihad to fix the officiating culture and more accountability, bring in a head of officiate. Like he really like, that was, I think the biggest impact he had in the league

for better and worse. And now as I watch basketball 18 years later, I wonder if the Mavs had just won that fucking series, would we have to deal with all the fucking terrible officiating shit that we have to deal with day after day? There was a game today, the Lakers game, beginning of the third quarter. There were three challenges slash reviews in the span of a minute. The game just stopped for like 11 minutes. So I don't know if it's social media's fault

or Mark Cuban's fault. I'm going to blame Mark Cuban because I think if they win that series, none of this stuff happens. And the game's just simpler to watch and there's better flow and we're not getting two-minute reports. And it's not just us being constantly frustrated

by how overthought all the officiating is. And I stem it back to 06. I don't even think this is a take. I think this is a well-researched opinion piece. Well, maybe next week it'll be hotter. You break out the word processor? No, but when shit happens with officials, I just think of that finals.

I'm like, God damn, I wish the Mavs had just won that. Just a basketball would just be a better place. Alright, you go. Alright, here's what I think will happen. I think the Pistons ownership could petition a league and say

we want Pistons, Wizards, best of seven, and if we can't beat them, we get to void Monte Williams' contract. Now, I know this will turn into like a management employee dispute, but should there be some sort of structure in any hiring process where it's like a lemon law but with people where 60 days in you go hey we all this all all this was we totally

fucked it up we don't almost like a mulligan yeah we don't have to pay the 70 million because i just can't believe i don't know that he watched any tape of last year's pistons yeah for certain things to dawn on him that late that most people league pass to be able to figure out like why were you like you were starting and closing games with killian hayes and then you waved him like that you know the killian thing was insane and unfortunately i think the pistons what happens when you're that bad that long and you've had a bunch of lottery picks and you start to kind of talk yourself into some weird stuff like hey we can maybe be competitive this year and it felt like they wanted to get where they were supposed to get a year ahead of time and granted you know with Cade missing time

that didn't help either but like it just was such a bad fit of all of it um I don't like I keep track of it the Pistons are now a half game behind the Wizards, granted post-Gafford. But watching the Wizards in person and thinking the Pistons have a worse record than they do, when there's players on the Pistons I actually like and I still hold out hope for, it's got

to be one of the worst coaching jobs in a long time. Sal, Sal and Housen, Hench and I bet on the Pistons over at the All-Star break. The over on Fando was 13 and a half.

They had eight wins. So they had to go six and 22. And I'm with you. I've been watching some Piston stuff. I'm like, this team's not bad.

Like, they're literally not bad now that they're actually, Monty's actually playing the right guys. And I was like, I actually don't think they're going not bad now that they're actually, Monty's actually playing the right guys. And I was like, I actually don't think they're going to roll over. I think the Wizards are going to roll over,

but I don't think Detroit is. And so I was watching last night and they're hanging with Orlando. And then Palo hits this crazy game winner against them. And we're texting on the thread, like, oh my God, tough Pistons lost. I'm like, how did I end up with money on the Pistons? Why did I do this? Why did I willingly make a Pistons

over bet? But the point is they actually have some talent and just not playing Killian, they're better. They're not giving him his 20 to 25 minutes and redistributed that stuff. I'll tell you this with the money thing. There's Spolster. What did he get? $15 million a year. Courageous signed the extension for two for $35 million. It was one of the greatest things that happened to the coaches in the league.

They changed it. They changed everything. That's the new baseline for a coach now. It's like $15 million to get one of the really good ones. I don't know what Popovich signed for it. All right. Let's do a little mini deep dive on the... Do you have more takes or you just have one?

It's just one? It's one each. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. Celtics. 45 and 12.

Eight game lead in the East. Five games over anyone in the West. Their first and offensive rating, third and defensive rating. They're plus 10 and a half net rating, which has them tied for ninth all time. They're on a list that includes- Wait, say that again? Yeah. They're ninth all time in net rating right now.

The list includes the 96 Bulls, 13.4, highest one. The 97 Bulls, the 2017 Warriors, the best team in the century. The 16 Spurs did not win the title. The 08 Celtics, the 92 Bulls, the 71 Bucks, the 16 Warriors did not win the title. And then they're tied with the 72 Lakers who did win the title. This is by net rating the best team in the last seven years. I asked Sean Grandy for this because I know he keeps track of weird shit like this. So thanks to Sean.

They've had 35 games this year where they've been up by 15 points or more. They've had 24 games where they've been up by 20 points or more. They've had 24 games where they've been up by 20 or more. The 08 Celtics had 35. They're number one in rebounds. They're number one in three points attempted. Their net rating stuff,

their best five man lineup, that's fourth. Best two man lineup, Tatum and White, that's second, plus 12.6. Their best three man lineup, Por's fourth. Best two-man lineup, Tatum and White, that's second, plus 12.6. Their best three-man lineup, Porzingis, Tatum, and White, or Porzingis, Brown, and White. Both of those are the best three-man lineups in the league. All the Porzingis numbers are amazing. The advanced stats say that this team actually could get a little better. I think there's a world, I think the Celtics feel this too, that they might actually have another level to go to. And the only hindrance would be

the fact that they have this huge lead for the one seed and they don't really have a shitload of urgency. They're in an incredible spot right now, at least to win the East. And with Denver kind of staring at them, they know they can play with Denver. And this is the most optimistic I've been as a Celtic fan since 08. Okay, what do you think of the hesitation? Because there seems to be like real national hesitation on them. I get texts from people and be like, do you really think they're that good?

And I was like, I think they're that good, but I understand your concerns. Yeah, because I have the same concerns because it does feel like the right kind of street fighting team, you know, like the type of team the Heat had last year, the type of team the Knicks on paper could have when all their guys come back.

Just a gritty, physical team that turns into an ugly game that's decided in the last five minutes. I guess it would be the hesitation and then Porzingis would be the other thing. What am I getting from him? Even yesterday, Joe Mass has him out there against the Knicks. There's two and a half minutes left. They're up 16 and Porzingis is running around. I'm like, just take him out. Just every minute that this guy is healthy as we get toward April, especially with this giant lead,

just I don't want to see him in any danger ever. He's too important. So I guess those, and then Joe Maz, just the fact that he hasn't been there. Joe Maz right now for any coach over 100 games has the highest winning percentage in the history of the league by like almost half a point. So it's tough to nitpick.

I think the best thing you can say about the Celtics is you're really nitpicking if you're looking for stuff. They have a lot of answers in a lot of different directions. If the reasons you're going to ding them are Tatum's too young, I don't love their

bench, is Porzingis going to stay healthy? You're nitpicking. That would be the to ding them. Tatum's too young. I don't love their bench. Is Porzingis going to stay healthy? You're nitpicking. That would be the case for them. Lowest corner three percentage. I try to find stuff. I try to find stuff about, okay, when it's late, and we know they have the highest three-point frequency of any team, they take the most for their possessions.

I did this, this i think a couple weeks ago where i talked about tatum on the isolation drives yeah and that his free throw rate is way below all the other guys like people in minnesota think ant doesn't get calls and a lot of that becomes like ant doesn't try for the call right right? The way Aluka does. Tatum doesn't try for the calls the way some of these other guys do. And clearly the last couple of years, Tatum's drives and his aggressiveness. And when I think about the street fighting part of it, I kind of agree. But then I think back and then like, hey, 27 other teams would take their playoff failures. And if they were really soft, don't they lose to Philly last year when they're down 3-2?

Or Milwaukee game six. Yeah, or go back to the Milwaukee. Like think about some of the Tatum resume games that he has for his playoff career already. And you're going to tell me like that guy can't get it done? By the way, Tatum, still 25 years old right now. Yeah, and by the way, like the other part when you

start packaging it all in together because like I saw somebody the other day on one of the shows say hey this group's been together a long time and it's like well not this version of the two of the guys and if you're if you're taking if you're knocking Tatum and Brown for 18 and not beating LeBron in game seven like that's that's they were just ahead of schedule with some of this stuff. You want to talk about a bad top of a conference, go back and look at that 18 East. It was a joke.

They probably should have lost to Washington. They definitely should have lost to Washington. I couldn't believe at the time that they did beat Washington. So there's these arguments that I'll hear, but then I think like, think of all these other guys that have nothing on their resume. Nothing like Tatum's game against Milwaukee that you bring up or the game 751 points last year.

I thought they lost to a better team in Golden State two years ago in the finals and the offense got clunky and everything. But when I look at, hey, do they settle too much here? What are some of the clutch numbers saying? A lot of the numbers still look really really good so this fatal flaw of the settling three when they're closing out a game i don't know how you're 45 and 12 if it's as big of a problem as wake it's talked about and like you bring up the knicks and going okay you know maybe when og's back and whatever ends up happening with Randall and I know they had him working out in street clothes the other day, but that's still a TBD with

Randall. OG seems far more optimistic about when he comes back. And some of these Knicks numbers, you can say with two different players, is similar to Phoenix, but run through the top eight in both conferences. If you go to the expanded standings, the Knicks

are 12-21 against teams over 500. It's the worst record of any top eight seed in either conference. And I know what a Knicks fan would say is, well, we're not that team anymore. Okay. But... Can we see it for three weeks? Yeah, that's all. Can you just see put together a really good month with a bunch of nice wins? And by the way, New York had their incredible stretch even missing some of those people, which is just a credit to Brunson and how good he's been. But I don't know if it's fear or intelligence that tells you they can't beat a Knicks team in the playoffs. There's two things that are just so people know that aren't really focused or watching them that

much. There's two things that are just completely different about them now from last year. One is that they're more malleable than they were last year. They can go a little smaller. They can go a little bigger. The Porzingis thing, there's just games when he's just... The other team has no guy to defend him. And if they try

to do that fluky bullshit, put a smaller guy on him, the Celtics just immediately punish him. I think Joe Maz has been really good about that this season. Like you're not, we're not letting you guard Porzingis that way. We're going to immediately take advantage of that.

The other piece is Tatum, where there's been subtle differences in them. We were watching, I was watching my old college roommate, John Richard was in town. We were watching the Knicks last night and we were just talking about Tatum,

Tatum, Fitchburg's own John Richard. We were talking about how Tatum bullies people a couple times a game in a way that he just didn't do last year. And I was thinking about him as a power forward in the 2020s, right? You don't think of Tatum as a power forward. Like, what is he?

He's just a forward, right? We don't really have positions anymore. We basically have guards, wings. He could play center guard if he wanted to, you know, like if it was a weird lineup. But yeah, you're right. He's a forward. So he hits threes.

He gets to the line. He can post up. He could pass out of double teams, he can rebound, he can switch on defense, and he's durable. But he also can play basically four positions for them because they could even play him at small ball center. They don't really do it that much, but I do think there's a world in the playoffs where they could.

But I was thinking about the power forwards we grew up with. So you go back to the early 2000s, Duncan, KG, C-Web, Dirk, Rasheed, Elton Brand, Pau Gasol, Jermaine O'Neal, Antoine Walker, Kenya Martin, Juwan Howard. It was a real position with guys who they could post up, they rebounded. They usually had 10 plus rebounds a game. They could protect the basket. And now you go into 2020s, who are the power forwards? It's like, Giannis is definitely a power forward, even though he's probably really a center.

Tatum. LeBron's, I guess, a power forward now? Or he's a power point guard? I don't know what the fuck he is. Randall. Laurie Markkinen. Towns, Palo, Aaron Gordon,

Jabari Smith, maybe Jalen Johnson, but how many forwards do you think are averaging eight rebounds a game right now? If you had to guess. I don't know off the top of my head. Go ahead. Seven. Giannis, Randall, Tatum, Markkinen,

Jalen Johnson, John Collins, and Jabari Smith. John Collins. John Collins randomly made it. But my point is Tatum is this kind of stealth asset as this kind of 2020s power forward. And I think we're going to see it in Team USA too, because you need those forwards who can rebound, but also shoot threes. And he's a really unique asset. And if you're going to make the MVP case for him, which I would not, because I think there's better players, part of the reason this team is special is because how malleable he is

now. The fact that he can rebound, he can defend, he can jump out. He's a two-way guy. And I think his little gross in all these different spots, the stats don't really sum it up. The stats are pretty similar to where they were last year, but eye test, it's different. So that's my little Tatum rant. PER is the same.

Win shares per 48 is almost to the dot. The box score plus minus stuff is like the same. Percentages, shooting, all pretty much similar. He's awesome. The only problem is that he's not ever somebody that people would say is the best player in the league. For Boston

or for whatever, but if he ends up being the fifth or sixth or whatever, like hell, I used to have a hard time when people put him ahead of Booker, but this year I think you probably have to even though I wish maybe Tatum had a little of that Booker, like whatever goes on in Booker's head, that would be maybe the perfect version of Tatum.

But then it just goes too far with like, oh, he's not this. Like, I just hear from my buddies. I'm like, you guys are a little spoiled with him. He's 25. Just has to be mentioned. He's not the guy he's going to be yet. Oh, I don't know. Like, whatever this is, this is incredible.

My bigger issue was the Jalen Brown stuff. Okay. It kind of dawned on me this year. Should I refill my Michael Jordan Dream Team Cup before you go into this? How long is this going to go? It's not going to go long because I'm going to pivot it back to you

because you watch it more intently than I do. But Jalen has smashed through any ceiling i've ever had for him i've said that before like the draft early on okay he's pretty good but whatever and then it just keeps going up and up and you know i voted him all nba last year and i didn't really i know there's some of the analytics community would say that he actually wasn't as good or you know whatever and that's that's fine but i've really tried to like pay attention to him more this year because i figure with perzingas coming in like you just knew he's gonna have less opportunities and so some of the numbers across the board are down because he just has less shots he is as good as anybody of making something out of something where I'm like,

what? Oh, it went in again. There are so many possessions with him where I'm like, he's just going to kind of pull up and turn around and hit a jumper from there. If you freeze framed it as he's midway through the movie, be like,

Oh my God, this is going to hit the backboard. Right. And then if you're being, you're just like, it went in again. It's a no, he's just like, it went in again. He's a no-no-yes guy.

But I don't know that he does a lot of like, he may take the pressure off everybody else because he can find ways to score when everything's broken down. But I think he's really kind of doing his own thing. And we're this many years into it. And I wonder if they get stopped again in the East, if that's the real, like, you know, because it was happening before E-May and the team had turned around. Remember how miserable it was watching them a couple years ago, and they had one of the all-time turnarounds,

end up in the NBA Finals. Nobody's talking about breaking up Jalen and Tatum anymore, and that's not necessarily what I'm even presenting here, but I look at him, and I'm even presenting here, but I look at him and I'm consistently confused by this incredibly productive, talented player in a way where I'm like, is it as good as the scoring is? By the way, they're winning a million games,

so it's not like there's this piece that's screwing them up and they're flirting with just being over 500, being a four seed. I don't know. I'm asking you, what do you think it is that I'm seeing? Because it just feels a little different, or maybe it's always been this way. And I'm just finally admitting like, yeah, he's an awesome player, but I don't know. I can't tell if you're making the case for him or against him. Exactly. Then you listen, because that's what it feels like.

So, here's the best thing I'll say about him. You probably knew some girl in college or after college who carried herself in a way that made her more attractive. There's something about the demeanor

that was part of the package. Perfect segue. Justin Aspin for a few days. You're like, are you serious? Or is it the outfit? Right. He carries himself

like he's one of the best guys on a team that's won five titles. He has the confidence and a little bit of a swagger of somebody who's actually done more than he's probably done. On the other hand, he's done a lot. I think he's played 100 playoff games already. Let's see. It's 109? I have it up here. I'll grab it. Yeah. He's been in a lot of big games. He's played against a lot of great

players. He's held his own a few times. In the 22 finals, he was probably the best guy in the Celtics. How many playoff games? We are at 112. 112 playoff games? We are at 112. 112 playoff games.

Guy has been in all kinds of situations. He plays in front of one of the best home crowds. And we kind of know what his faults are. To me, he's another 90-10 guy where 90% of it's great and the 10% is really glaring. And he'll have these moments where there will be a breakaway the ball's going the other way and he's dribbling and you're just like oh he's going to get

caught from behind and they're going to poke it out of bounds I know it's going to happen then it does and you're like oh man Jalen the 10% is really glaring with him everybody's got the 10% though my thing is he's definitely because his 10% is like it's a pulsating 10%.

I'll fully admit it. Is he overpaid? Of course. Is LeBron overpaid? Would you want to pay LeBron $50 million this year? You probably wouldn't. I think most guys, when you get over 40, they're probably going to be overpaid unless it's one of the five best guys in the league.

I still think him and Tatum together, the fact that those guys really like playing with each other and care about each other, that's a really important piece of this. Because even there's got to be that little twinge sometimes where it's like, why isn't it me? Why isn't this my team? I don't think he thinks that way. I think those guys look out for each other. I was told a story, the All-Star game, when everybody was going for the MVP. It hit that point. And I was barely watching the All-Star game, but the East was up 20. So Dame was in there and Halliburton and Jalen Brown was going for it. And Tatum went to Doc Rivers and he said, give Jalen my minutes. I want to see him get MVP. I think those guys like each

other. To me, that's a real dynamic. Those guys have grown up together and I think they look out for each other. That was talked about when they weren't playing well, right? It was those guys. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. And I think it's a really good point there. Although as an aside, is it actually uncool to pursue the All-Star Game MVP now? Maybe it is. I don't know. It goes to the records. Yeah, that's true. I don't want to pursue it.

I want a definitive Bill Simmons line in the sand of basketball history where an All-Star MVP no longer means anything. Just give me the year. Tell me when it starts because I do not want to hear. I think it started this year. No, it's already started previous years. I'm just saying I need you to be the I think it started this year. No, it's already started previous years. I'm just saying I need you to be the judge and jury on this one.

Go back and look because when somebody's debating somebody, same thing as the gold medal thing, which is my least favorite, the sooner you have to bring up somebody's Olympic gold medal for their Hall of Fame case, the worse their case is. But if you're going to tell me it's not the numbers,

it's not the titles, but he won all-star MVP in 2028. All-star MVP should not be used ever. Well, I from there was a time when it did matter. Yeah.

I had to have one in the 20th century. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But so I like the theory. So a couple of people were saying how when

Kobe, when his career was kind of running to an end and he stopped making the all-star game, that's when the all-star game turned into something else. Cause he really cared about it. And it made other team, other guys care because how much he cared. And then Westbrook always really cared about it. So there's always at least two guys that were like, I care trying to win.

And then other guys are trying now. It's like, we don't have those guys anymore. By the way, I'll give Westbrook this. He can't be on a court and not want to and he's always gonna be like i'm gonna try to get 20 rebounds yeah i'm gonna try can i get 50 points he can't there's no off button for him so that the all-star game is made for him if he gets back in one which is probably not gonna happen he would be one mvp but yeah i mean it's back to the jalen thing like would you rather have Jalen Brown

or two Derek Whites? Two Derek Whites? Well, I love Derek White. The bigger question to me is, is Derek White, does he mean more to this team than Jalen Brown does? And I think you can make the case he does and there's a lot of advanced metrics that support it. But I

still really value the Tatum-Brown as a combo and I like rooting for it. I like that we're in year seven or eight. We've been talking about it in this podcast for a while. I'm with you. I think if they blow it this year, if this year is disappointing in some way and they're looking at having to pay White,

having to pay Drew Holiday, also having to pay Jalen 50 million. I don't see how all three of those guys come back if they don't win because they're going to pay White. I don't know what Drew's market is and he sacrificed the most. Yeah. I mean, his numbers, but look at the free agent list. That's what I mean and you could just

situation where somebody's like absolutely here's 120 million for three years our team option year three I have a monologue ready to go where I'm at the point after this trade deadline because we'd already gone for like three hours or four hours I don't know if there's a bad contract anymore in the NBA. I mean, yes, there is, Jordan Poole. Jordan Poole. But it's not about the existing contracts. It's, hey, we're a bad team and we have cap space and we have to spend it on somebody. So even though you can't look at Drew Holiday's production and go, this guy's slowing down. To your point, he's made the Ray Allen sacrifice.

He's so much fun to watch on defense. Both him and White, just some of the team defense stuff they do. I would encourage people to watch the two guards when the Celts really have it dialed up. He's such a smart, like jumping off people, jumping back, jumping into passing lanes, coming back out, coming down for a double team. Like his instincts, I'd never really watched him this carefully night after night after night, but his instincts on what to do. And then the way he protects the rim, him and White, I've never seen two guards protect the rim like this. They're two of the best shot blocking guards of the past 10 years, and they're

both on the same team. So anyway, there's a lot of pressure on this season, I think, because of the price tag that's coming. And, you know, teams are going to come after Jalen if they don't win the title. Because there's not a lot of guys like him who have the kind of experience he has in the production.

Right. He's still really good. Yeah, he's still really good. It's like Randall. When the Knicks fans complain about Randall it's like do you miss the 24-9

every night now that he's not playing and you're watching Precious Shachua airballing 11 footers from the foul line do you miss Randall now it's nice to have

the 24-9 every single night any other Celtics things you want to hit no I think we'll get to it this season. Porzingis, Tatum, and White together,

plus 15.2. Porzingis, Brown, and White, plus 14.9. Porzingis and White together, really good. Any media stuff you want to do before we go? What did you think about JJ against that first take, that whole media cycle?

And to me, it felt like there was no basketball on and people had nothing to do. So it was like, Hey, something happened. Oh, uh, I have a lot of thoughts on it.

Yeah. Maybe, maybe we do the, the media corner, every media corner sponsored by something. I don't know. We'll just end up getting everybody pissed at us. I don't really care anymore.

I don't care anymore either. Here's the thing. I don't like First Take. It's not my kind of show. It does well for a daytime sports show. I guess the only other competition would be Skip, and nobody watches that show anymore. Yeah.

So the whole function of it it was never a fit if you've listened to me you know i would be bad on the show okay so i'm not even saying like it's anything personal about the show i just know like oddly enough when i see jj on it i'm like that's what i would be like on that show, but without a resume. And that's why I would never be on that show, even though whatever. I stopped by a few times. They were like, hey, do you want to defend them keeping the sign Yawkey Way? I was like, no. They were like, shit.

He's okay with him changing it. It'd be great if you were like no it needs to stay yaki way yeah it's history man right so uh i think i still went on and then i still somehow somebody turned it into like because i was like who gives a shit so um so let me just get that out of the way like it's just not it's not my it's not my thing um but i get jj's point but i also kind of get the debate show format like hey you can't come on and tell us all our topics are stupid right right but sometimes i see something break out and it's like we're a debate show we ask why westbrook was criticized for triple doubles and yokich wasn't we're Jokic wasn't. We're a debate show.

Hey, we're a debate show. We ask if Spolster's on the hot seat when they blow a 3-0 lead to the Celtics going into Game 7. And you're like, what? So it doesn't mean, hey, we're a debate show. We just ask whatever the fuck we want all the time. But as somebody that worked on a talk show

every single day, and Van Pelt and I used to get in arguments about this, is somebody would win a game and he'd go, all right, we got to talk about them. And I'd be like, well, do we? Do we have to, we owe them credit? Is there a topic behind it? Because if there's not a topic where you and I can carry it for seven to 10 minutes, then why are we doing it? And that's actually something I give first take a lot of credit on is that even if you don't love the mechanism or where they get to is the question asking point, like it's the jumping off point. So it's, it's funny in that I understood JJ's pain and how frustrated he was, but people also weren't wrong to go,

Hey, what do you think we do around here? He just shouldn't go on the show. You really think that, huh? He obviously doesn't like doing it. He gets to do basketball games. He has his own podcast. Who's making him go on first take? Just don't go on the show.

If you don't like the format, don't do it. I wouldn't go on the show. I never went on it when I worked there. Were you invited, Bill? I went on once at the 2012 finals, and I did like five minutes, and I had a good time. But in general, it's not the kind of show I would want to do. I wouldn't want to exchange three-minute

monologues and do the shtick thing. I just wouldn't. I personally wouldn't want to do it. My question is, why is JJ doing it if he doesn't like it? I think you do it because it's, hey, you're going to come by once basketball season starts

up and we get rid of all the football guys and we need some more basketball people. When I was watching him... He's doing games now. He's on the number one broadcast team. Van Gundy didn't go on that now. Like he's, he's on the number one broadcasting, like Van Gundy didn't go on that show. He doesn't need to go on it.

Just don't do it. I think when you're starting off and you get the opportunity to go do the show, you're like, Oh my God, I get to do this show. But JJ, you sure.

Fine. He's more accomplished. He's got plenty of money in the bank. He, maybe he doesn't need to do it. I imagine there's some part of him that thought like, Hey, this will be fun. Come on once a week and debate these guys but i thought a lot of the arguments became a little self-serving like they always do in almost every single topic you know

in that if you're on a debate show you are anti-jj and it's like all right you know and then it's and then i guess you guess you'd be pro JJ if you hate the shows, but you know, I mean, look, you, you sit there in the pre-show and you go through all of these topics and you try to figure out a way to work yourself into the conversation you think is

going to work on television. Like, Hey, what do you think of this? Okay, well this is, I've got, I've got a couple minutes on that.

And then the other guy goes, Oh wait, like I did the show enough. I don't know. I mean, my history with it is, is pretty funny, but I did it. And I sat in those pre-show meetings enough. And I actually think what they tried to do in the pre-show meetings was get the best stuff out of all the people that would be on the air and figure out the best way to the conversation. Now, sometimes it can feel a little like, Hey, you know, I used to always make the blame pie joke. Like if you were just desperate, like a team lost a big game and you were like, what's the topic? And then does LeBron need to leave LA? And then it'd be like blame pie. Somebody would starts with a pie and it's like boom grabbing a slice this feels like another ringer spinoff where you could just have guys at the desk and it's just called blame pie and then you just like the first guy in the

jib he's like offensive line 17 just random percentages advanced scout 12 and a half percent offensive line two slices oh only get eight slices yeah you only get eight slices to hand out i'm making this a two slice choice oh my god and you could have a graphic with color and then it gets filled up like a trivia pursuit piece yeah yeah actually kyle edit this out uh wait i wonder what do you think though you have to have more depth than jj just shouldn't do it no i really don't because i don't really like those shows in general like i i would much rather but you podcast okay see like most of us needed the opportunity most of us have asked you didn't need it as a viewer okay i just don't really consume the content so i don't need it, and JJ certainly doesn't either. I'm talking about myself as a viewer. I just don't really consume the content.

It's hard for me to imagine JJ going on there when it's a show that a year ago somebody was wondering if Jokic was stat padding. To me, that just seems like it would be fundamentally offensive to JJ to be on the show in the first place. So, yeah. But listen, that show's been, especially during football season,

I think they just had the most successful season they've had. It's not like they're doing anything wrong. I just, it's not a show for everybody. Like, Zach Lowe, I can't imagine a first take either. It would have been hilarious if they were like, JJ, it's a debate show. And he's like, but is it a stupid show? I think one of the issues with him on that show

is he really gets upset. You'll see him in the screen. He's just seeing. Actually, when I see a clip of him getting pissed, it's one of my favorite things ever. His steam is coming out of his ears. His thing about the ecosystem and about how way more people are going to care

that he said what he said about Doc Rivers versus his breakdown of Zion. I think that's been the case since the early 2010s. Goes back further than that. I don't think anything has changed, but ever since we had Grantland at least, I felt like that was the way it was. That's an audience thing.

The audience has told us more and more they actually want that. They want the breakout piece. They want the thing. We were making fun of the hottest take thing we were doing earlier in the pod, but when you went on SportsCenter, and it's not specific even to ESPN, it's specific to the industry in that they'd be like, do you have anything? And then you'd be like,

what do you want me to say? So you want me to go out there and say something like, Hey, what's, I remember they used to do this thing with McShay where they were like, do you have a bold prediction for this Saturday? And it was basically like pick something that's definitely not going to happen. Yeah. Pick it. And I don't know that it's because every producer doesn't know what they're doing that wouldn't make any sense i've been doing this a really long time i don't think it means the hosts don't know what they're doing i think it means the audience whether they want to admit it or not they actually are attracted to these things they are attracted to see it on the website of course it'll be like the videos and the headlines would be like,

Stephen A lays into Carl Anthony Towns. And then the next clip will be like, Perkins has had it with Dame Lord. And then the next clip, and it's just, you know, that's what they're selling now. That's been going on for a while, but it's true. Like if you go onto the site, you'll see the headline and it's just, somebody's had it with somebody. And it's the,

it's a freeze frame picture of somebody in mid rant, like their head's going to come off their body. Right. Yeah. That's what they're doing these days. You know, okay. But are they doing it wrong?

I don't think they're doing it wrong. I think they're doing it right. Serenity said we need to hold Josh Allen accountable. That's my favorite. My favorite is when a guy throws for like 300 yards, three touchdowns, they lose 35-27 and then Monday's like, is this guy

a winner? One of the things I was thinking about adding to the Sunday shows is we just add like 10 more people in the Zoom. And then like about an hour, 20 minutes into the podcast, one of them just has a character assassination of somebody. And we go, whoa, where'd that come from? Whoa, Kyle, Jesus. Hey, whoa.

And then we don't push back on it. Yeah. Yeah. We don't push back. It's kind of wink, wink. And then we don't push back on it. Yeah. Yeah. We don't push back. It's kind of wink, wink. We think it's funny. Randy Scott hit on your wife, Cerruti.

Jesus. Whoa. Where'd that come from? That's some of my favorite TV radio stuff. They'll let, they'll let the 17th highest paid guy on the show say the most controversial thing. And then you go, oh.

Rossello, when are you doing your podcast this week? I'm taking another week off. Okay. Back Sunday? Tuesdays and Thursdays. We got Iguodala this week. So I'm excited about that. Iguodala?

Yeah. And we've got the author of Napoleon coming on soon. Did you like the movie? I didn't watch it. A lot of people were down on it. Yeah, I'm sure as a historian, at least in the last 200 years, I'm a hard marker.

Russillo, good to see you. I'm glad we're back on Sundays. This was produced by Kyle Creighton And Steve Cerruti and Bob Who just shouted out a couple of horrible things That we had to edit out about people in the media Bob Maybe that's what we'll call

The Bob just comes in Just has these character assassinations And we go oh Rosillo good to see you I'll see you in a week I forgot to hit record. Just kidding. On the wayside I'm a Bruce I never said I don't

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