The Bill Simmons Podcast - Best NBA Future Bets + a 2021 Oscars Review With Joe House and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons talks with Joe House about Russell Westbrook’s revival and the surging Wizards, Eastern Conference play-in game scenarios, the disappointing Celtics season, the Porzingis problem in Dallas, the baffling Pelicans, potential playoff scenarios, Finals odds, and All-NBA lineups (2:12). Then Bill talks with Wesley Morris from The New York Times to break down the 93rd Academy Awards, including whether the production was a success, why the ratings were down, the state of movies, Anthony Hopkins winning the Oscar for Best Actor, Chadwick Boseman’s legacy, Frances McDormand’s astounding career, and more (62:08). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Joe House and Wesley Morris Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Sunday night. We did Predator, yet another influential action movie from the 80s. Had the dream team cast for this one, Shea Serrano, Kyle Brandt, and Chris Ryan. Really fun podcast. Go check that out. Before we got into this podcast, want to send love and thoughts and prayers

to our guy, Jonathan Charks, who is going through a health situation right now. We really value what he did here the last five years. He's been a huge part of the ringer, writing, podcasting, everything. Everybody loves working with him. Just an awesome guy. And I know he's going to get through

the stuff he's going through now. But if you have a couple seconds, put them in your thoughts and best wishes to him and we miss you charks hope we get you back soon coming up joe house and i are going to talk nba and wesley morris and i are going to talk about the oscars it's all next first uh pearl jam All right, Joe House is here. We're taping this. It is Monday, 9.30 a.m. Pacific time.

A rare Monday morning podcast. We're going to try to get this up as fast as we can. There's a lot of NBA stuff going on. We're in the home stretch house. There's basically 12 games left. There's a lot of stuff to bet on. There's playing game, who's going to make the playoffs, all that stuff. We have

some really interesting conference bets. We have some MVP stuff that isn't quite as delightful as maybe it should be. Sadly, you can't bet on the NBA. I'm going to start with the playing games because you're wizards. Yeah.

How many games have you won in a row? Eight straight. The most, the longest winning streak since 2001, 2002. I texted you my worst case scenario nightmare for the Celtics end of the season, which I know the Celtics season is going to end badly. I know they're going to lose in the first round, but here's my worst case scenario.

7-8 play-in game. Boston, Charlotte. Charlotte beats Boston, which would make total sense because Gordon Hayward, LaMelo coming back, Malik Monk. That just feels like a loss. Then Washington beats Indy in the 9-10. And now our teams go head-to-head again. You get revenge for the Atlantic game.

Boston-Washington, and you would have Westbrook and Beal, who would be possessed, and Daniel Gafford, who is now the best shot blocker in the history of basketball. And I just don't know if theeltics are tough enough to win that game and my team could be out of the playoffs house this is your dreaming of this scenario i really am i mean this is uh karmic payback for a lot of uh injustices over the years but between us not not the least of which early in this season the slander that you tried to heap on the Washington franchise by arguing that perhaps they should have kept John Wall and their draft pick

and maybe drafted Tyrese Halliburton instead of going out and getting this killer, this basketball-killing machine, Russell Brody Westbrook, out there taking care of all the business. What an absolute marvel. Well, we have to apologize to him because we had a funeral for him on this podcast, I think like three months ago. Well, you know why? Yeah.

He was dead. That's why. Nobody told us that his leg didn't work. That's fair. By the way, House, I didn't realize I wasn't recording there for three minutes. We're just killing Craig.

I can't, your video camera's not working and I wasn't recording. So there you go. Sorry, Craig. But yeah, we poured dirt on Westbrook. We basically had a basketball funeral for him, and it was justified. We didn't realize he was hurt. Did we find out what happened?

Did we find out why he's suddenly not hurt? I really want somebody local here to do that deep dive. I haven't seen the in-depth reporting the the capital j journalism on exactly what why did he arrive injured why didn't we know that he was injured when he arrived why didn't they manage our expectations better what was the timeline and prognosis and you know how is it that we are now at this point where it's basically been four weeks of him looking as good as he's looked at any point over the last two or three years?

Here's the numbers for him. His last 37 games, that's a pretty big sample size. That's over half of this weird season. He's 23, 12, and 12, 45% shooting. During those 37 games, they're 21 and 16. That includes when Beal was injured and they went a little tailspin when he was out. When Beal plays this year, they're 26 and 25. So I think we had some bets. Didn't we do some bets with them? We bet on them to, I think, be in the play-in games. And then we also bet on their winning percentage. We definitely bet on their winning percentage. And I really don't

think we should talk about it right now. Oh, because it was like 45.5%, right? So we're actually in that now because they're 27-33. But the reality is when Beal plays, they're a slightly above 500 team. And then I want to come back to Westbrook in a second, but explain this Gafford thing to me. He was a throw-in. He basically was on the Bulls for a year and a half. I had never heard of the guy. There's 400-plus guys in the NBA.

I literally didn't know who he was. He goes to your team, and now he's basically playing 20-plus minutes a game. He's blocking a couple shots a game. He's playing crunch time for you. What the fuck is going on here? Well, this type of player has been something that this Washington team has needed for what feels like 15 years. I mean, when you look at our string of guys occupying

the center position, injured Dwight Howard, Marcin Gortat, Robin Lowe, they're all of a type. They're not this crazy rim-running, shot-blocking. We haven't had... Jan Mahimny was supposed to be that guy. Right. Just wasn't. Turned out not to be.

Wait, so you're saying that Jan Mahimny, you wouldn't have given him $64 million in retrospect? By all accounts, he's a wonderful human being. He's not playing professional basketball anymore. He's enjoying the $64 million. Maybe he's in China or something. I don't know. He's not playing in the NBA. Yeah. Wonderful human being.

Wonderful human being. So now all of a sudden sudden now you have this athletic shot blocker that you've been dying for really since uh the day the late 2000s when you thought andre blotch might be an athletic shot blocker he was not he was not he andre blotch never played one one minute of defense that i can recall but you know the gafford thing could not have arrived at a better time for what this team needed at that particular moment. He arrived there 10-1 since he's arrived. They were already trending towards playing better defense.

When they went into the trade deadline, they were 15-28, and they were 26th ranked in defense. They've gone 12-6 since then, and they're up to 18th in in defense. They've gone 12-6 since then and they're up to 18th in overall defense, but they score very well in some defensive metrics having to do with the kind of shots that they make other teams take

and their overall defensive efficiency has been by the last month in the top five or six, I think. Unbelievable. Yeah. And the Westbrook rejuvenation, I think, is the most fun part of this because here's the thing. If you're in the playing games, he's going to be going 170 miles an hour,

and he's going to be super alpha-y. And you have the Beal thing too, where Beal's got a huge chip on his shoulder. And to me, this is why we have the playing games. This has been a huge split. You know, like Rossello doesn't like it. People that I really respect their basketball opinions, they just don't like it. I'm the opposite.

I think it's great. I love that it is given a team. This is exactly why you have the playing games because sometimes the first half of your season can get fucked up. Sometimes you can make a trade. You have an injury. You don't, you don't kind of turn into what you're going to be until the final third of the season. It happens. I like the fact that a team like Washington can have life and has something to go for instead of the way we had it the old way, which is just, all right, well, that season didn't work. Now let's take a shit on our fans and not try for the last 25 games. You can't do it this way. San Antonio is another one. San Antonio, I think deep down is probably dying to tank, but it's kind of

irresponsible to your fans to just be like, hey, cool. I know we can make the playoffs, but we're just not going to do it. But anyway, I think Washington to me is the number one success story for this because I think they're going to make the playing game. They have two guys who are really good that I enjoy watching the way they're playing now. And I think they're going to be a hard out. And isn't that why we have these? so obviously i'm all the way in the bag for this and the the overarching concept of having potentially 24 or 25 of the 30 teams with something to play for is much much better than the alternative i think because under under other circumstances under usual circumstances now washington is only three games behind Charlotte in the loss column right now, as they say, with 12 games to go.

That's a tough uphill climb. It's not impossible. So Washington would still be playing, I think, as hard. They would not have already turned to a tank, I don't think. Right. But Chicago's in the mix. Toronto's in the mix. In the East and in the West, New Orleans and Sacramento, they have ways to go, but they

can't. Sacramento could probably give it up. But Sacramento can give it up. New Orleans is still kind of hanging on. They're on life support. But if Washington didn't have the possibility of this playing game, I think they would have packed it in when Beal got hurt. That would have been the smart move to do under the old rules. Be like, hey, we don't have it. It's not going to happen this year.

We have, because the eight seed, they're three behind now, and that's after an eight-game winning streak. I just think they would have packed it in and tried to tank because this draft is a six player you know if you get one of the top six awesome it's really hard to tank when you have this situation OKC's doing it, Minnesota and Houston

are doing it, Cleveland, Orlando Detroit, Toronto seems like they can't decide and then the funny one is Chicago, they went for it and they're still not going to make the playoffs, and they might lose the pick if it's five or below to Orlando, which I think would be a disaster for them. But I really like the play-in setup.

And by the way, anyone who's against it and is a purist, then don't watch the play-in games. We're going to have a great time watching them and gambling on them. You can sit them out. If you don't like them, go sit them the fuck out. Well, one thing that you just observed, which is the other side of the coin with this, I'm not so sure it's in Washington's best interest franchise-wise, long-term planning-wise, long-range planning-wise to go for it in this way. I mean, and I still think it's, there's, if, you know, if I was in charge for a a day i would look really hard at what i could get for bradley beal in the off season just trying to

think about what the game plan going forward would look like for the franchise but i will say on the heels of this winning streak and as i look at the remaining 12 games, I love being in the playoff hunt. I absolutely adore it. So I'm all in on the play-in game. Yeah, Wizards fans, it's like you've been in the desert and all of a sudden somebody's off and you're assaulting. You're super excited about it.

It's been like a radical... This is the thing when we did the preview pod in December with Rosillo, when we were doing over-unders and it was all win percentages. It was like the extremes in terms of the interruptions

and because of the way the schedule works, what kind of injury issues there are going to be. There was no way to really properly when we were all sitting there together chopping it up in the first week of December try and anticipate. The Wizards had three weeks off in, in January due to COVID.

So it's been like two seasons. They weren't healthy in terms of like being, having 10 guys that can run up and down the floor until mid February. So it's not like a shock that a team like, you know, can put together a streak like this. The same thing, the Knicks have their own sort of injury challenges as well, but they've been on, on this great streak. I just think like for teams trying to, that, that need to do something, they have a goal of achieving something this season.

The play on game provides a great incentive for, for those teams to make a mark on a crazy fucked up season. Well, hopefully we'll get this podcast up before Monday's games. The Knicks are in the four spot tied with Atlanta. They're both 34 and 27. The Celtics and Miami are tied at 32 and 29 for the six, seven spot.

And I'm just telling you, I would bet on Miami getting that six spot over Boston. What happened? I think this Boston team is soft. We'll get to them in a second. I thought they turned the corner. They turned no corners, and the whole thing was laughable. I remember watching one of those games after the Warriors game

when they were talking about this Celtics team, blah, blah, blah. And it was like, go look at the actual wins. They could have lost a couple of them and the schedule was pretty favorable. And I was never thinking that the corner had been turned. Tatum was playing better. That was about it. But Boston, Miami are tied for 6-7.

Charlotte is at 8. Charlotte's 30-30. Indy's 29-31. Washington is 27-33. And Indy's 29-31, Washington is 27-33. And Indy's just kind of, nobody knows what to make of them. Their team seems like it changes every week, who their eight guys are. Now, gambling-wise, Charlotte is plus 128 to make the playoffs on FanDuel, and they're minus 158 to miss it.

Indy is minus 114 to make it, minus 106 to miss it. So basically even. Your Wizards, plus 265 to make it, minus 350 to miss it. Now this isn't making the playing game. This is actually being

one of the eight seeds. Yeah. The plus 265 is really respectful because you would have to, here's how it would go. Boston and Charlotte would play

if the way it goes now. And then Indy and Washington would play. So you would have to beat Indy. And then you would have to beat the winner of whoever comes out of that Miami-Boston-Charlotte game as a loser. So the odds aren't great. To me, the best odds are Charlotte at plus 128. Because they're getting all their guys back. Looks like LaMelo's back in a week.

Monk's coming back soon. Hayward will be back in time for the playing games. And I think Charlotte's legit good. The fact that they've hung around and they've stayed 500 when they've had some real injuries, they're very well coached. They laid the smack down on the Celtics yesterday in a game that I have no idea why the Celtics

didn't show up for it, except for the fact that this is the season they've had. I wasn't surprised at all. If I ever wanted to bet against the Celtics, I would have bet against them in that game. But I like that Charlotte team. And plus 128 house for the Hornets. What do you think of that to make the playoffs?

It's plus odds and only have to win one game. Yes. And they would have two chances to win that one game, right? Yep. Essentially, yeah. Plus odds on that. And we've talked before on this pod about how much we admire the depth of Charlotte. And I don't know if you've acknowledged it, but Rozier's got some killer in him.

I like it. He's been really good this year. Yeah. He really has. The way the Celtics played that was problematic as it was happening. And I guess you could say, well, this is how they ended up getting Kemba, but they ended up getting a guy

who's been off and uninjured for the last two years for more money. Rozier was really good for them when they made that playoff run. And then ended up dying in a game seven for more money. Rozier was really good for them when they made that playoff run. Yep. And then ended up dying in a game seven because I think he was trying to outkick his coverage a little bit.

He was going head to head with LeBron James in a game seven. But he was good that year. And then the year after, Kyrie was back and he just didn't have the playing time. He was like a fourth guard. He wasn't happy.

So I'm down with him. And the Hayward rejuvenation until he got hurt was real. I think that's a talented team. And they have a bench that can come in and kind of swing it. Bridges has been probably the most fun random bench guy of the year because there will just be games where he's lighting up. They can shoot. That's the thing that scares me about them in a playoff game.

They did it yesterday. They made like 19 threes. They can hit some threes. And if Lamello can give them 20, 25 minutes off the bench and you can put him in for Wanamaker, that seems pretty substantial. It's more fun if Charlotte's in the playoffs. And is Charlotte more fun in the playoffs than Washington? Washington has the eight seed going up against the Nets,

KD and Russ back at it. That's also very, very, very fun. That's fun. We'll litigate that. We're going to take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

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powerful backing of american express terms and conditions apply visit amex.ca business platinum Okay. So most fun teams in the playoffs. I don't think my team cracks the top eight because of just how up and down they are. I emotionally cannot take it anymore. I can't imagine how America thinks because they've been on national TV a lot. They have fallen behind. I guessed on, I did a rare tweet yesterday because they fell behind by 10 again. And I was like, I think this is like the 45th game they've fallen behind by 10. Grandy, Sean Grandy corrected me.

It was 34. So Dave, it felt like 45, but they have been down by 10 plus in 34 of the 61 games. That's fucking terrible. Feels like a lot. And it always feels like they're down nine and the game just started. And it's just been the season from hell. They get Fournier. He immediately gets COVID. He's not going to be right for another couple of weeks. Romeo Lankford, they were counting on.

He got hurt. He just looks, he looks just horrific. He looks like a high school running back trying to play with the high school basketball team, but doesn't understand how to play basketball. Over and over again, the supporting cast has been bad. And then Time Lord, who they're really counting on, he of course got hurt

because he can't play more than 12 games in a row without getting hurt. And then the Tatum and Brown thing, it kind of comes and goes with them. And there's an inordinate amount of pressure on them to just show up night after night like they're second team all NBA guys. And sometimes they're just not like yesterday was an example. I mean, they are who they are. This record is not a mistake they're not uh underperforming that they are this is the the identity of the celtics when we did

the pod about the trade deadline should they you know try and do something big right at the deadline and you know i my view was no, just ride this season out. It's not going to get better. You're not going to win a title. You're not one of the four best teams in the East. Just go ahead and set your sights on next season. Yeah, and I think that's basically what they did, right? The Fournier thing was a low cost.

Let's add a guy who can provide some offense off the bench, and then we'll kind of see what our top seven looks like. But Tatum and Brown are 50.1 points combined this year. Their combined percentage is 47, 39, 80. You can't ask for a better season from two young guys than that at the points of careers they're at. And Tatum's had COVID stuff. I think, if anything, he's been a little under

where I thought we would come in on him. And there's just, you know, other than that, it's just roulette from night to night. And I think what worries me about a Washington game is that basically becomes two on two, right? It's my two best guys against your two best guys. Your two best guys are going to think

they're the best guys in that game. They definitely think that. Whether that's true or not, we can debate, but they will go into that game thinking like, we've got this, we can beat this. And really the only things that the Celtics have going for them in a playing game against the Wiz is waiting for Westbrook to do Westbrook crunch time big game things.

It's either Tatum or Brown getting super hot. Kemba, who's, you know, every time I hear an announcer talking about how Kemba, he's coming back. It's happening. You can see it. It's like, all right. And then he'll go three for 17. I don't trust him.

But yeah, I think Beal and Westbrook versus Tatum and Brown scares the living hell out of me. I know it thrills you, House. It thrills me. And we'll have to come up with some kind of proper wager as between us. I was texting Fando because they only had the odds for some playoff teams.

And I was like, I really think you should have Celtics and Miami. There should be odds for whether those teams are going to make the playoffs because this could be the year where we see the seven or eight seed actually get knocked out of the playoffs and everybody's going to fucking lose their mind. I don't, I don't know if I think it's probably a better chance in the East. If you go to the West right now, it's Portland and Memphis as the seven,

eight San Antonio, golden state is the nine 10. So why don't you explain what's going to happen with that, right now it's Portland and Memphis as the 7-8 San Antonio Golden State as the 9-10 so why don't you explain what's going to happen with that with Golden State in the 10th seed what's going to happen from a gambling standpoint for those two games with Golden State any value whatsoever if it's plus 101 for Golden State

and it's going to be much better than that we are hammered it's not going to be a full mortgage payment they're the sucker bet of all time they're a total sucker, it's not going to be a full mortgage payment. They're the sucker bet of all time. No, they're a total sucker bet. The odds are going to be terrible. Everybody's going to be like, oh, Curry's like, Curry's ending this. Curry's getting them in the playoffs.

I think the value is going to be terrible. Okay. Well, if it's not going to be good value. We're still betting it. Wait a second. We're still betting it. We're not not betting it. I'm just not proud of it.

I don't think it's a smart bet, but we're betting it. I take issue with the idea of characterizing it as a sucker bet. Do you want to be the sucker on whoever it is they go up against while Curry drops 49, does another 12-3 pointer game, and puts 49 up and just single-handedly takes the game over? Well, it's interesting. Dallas is 33-26. Again, we're taping this Monday morning.

Portland's 32-28. So it looks like Portland's going to be in the seventh seed unless Dallas falls apart here. Portland-Memphis, we saw last year. That was a really fun game. Yeah. The catch with Memphis is Triple J's back. Yeah, and not just back, but hugely efficient. Really good right now.

So you could argue Dallas, Portland, Memphis, just those three teams with Triple J back, and their records are pretty close to each other, that Memphis might be the best out of those three. Because I don't like any... I mean, I'm glad the Porzingis-Luca stuff finally, Cuban finally acknowledged it. Did you read all that stuff he said?

No, what did he say? I missed the Cuban part. He was basically, because, you know, there's been a lot of rumblings. Here we go. The aggregators are going to fucking, I'm going to tread carefully because the aggregators, because they have to get their fucking pieces out of other people's podcasts. So I'm going to tread carefully here. There have been rumblings about the Luca Porzingis relationship. Yes. I would love to tell you more, but unfortunately in the fucking aggregator world, I can't have a conversation with my friend house

on a podcast for you guys to listen to without somebody blowing it out of proportion. I'm saying, you can play basketball with somebody and not be best friends, but there's been a lot of stuff really since the Luka thing took off where Porzingis was like, I thought I was the guy in this team. And I think they've had to navigate it. And if you watched Alice this year, which I've watched a lot of because I like Luka, I don't think Porzingis plays that hard. I really don't. The guy can't even get 10 rebounds a game. He's seven foot three. They are in a funny spot because he handles the ball. I,

I, I love to see whatever the metric is for. We have the metric. Well, not that that's what usage rate is. One thing. I just mean the raw time. Like if Dallas,

Dallas has possessed the basketball for 7,000 minutes, or I mean, I'm just making up numbers. How many of those minutes has Luca's hand been on it? It feels like 6,800. You know where I stand. I don't like it. I don't think that's a formula that wins four straight playoff rounds. You and I agree.

We saw it with Harden in Houston forever. And I know Luka. I know they're Dallas. I get all the numbers with the efficiency and the offensive rating and all that stuff. But I just fundamentally think you can't win four straight playoff rounds. I said it with Houston. Win one.

They haven't won anything yet. Luka's been great. They haven't won anything. I think they've had 60 games here to really figure out how to make this Porzingis-Luka thing work. And from what I've seen, look, they've had the season from hell,

the first 30 games, right? They had COVID stuff. They had injuries. Luka was a little out of shape ending the season. That's the season. But fundamentally, there's a Porzingis issue where he's putting up his 19 and 8.

I test wise, he doesn't seem super engaged. I think defensively, you wouldn't say he's flying around like a maniac. It doesn't seem like a great fit. So when Cuban like acknowledged like, hey, those guys, they're, you know, they get it as a basketball relationship. It's great. You know, who off the court, who cares?

Coworkers don't get along. It was just interesting that he even talked about it. And I think they would have traded him if they could have before the deadline. I really do. I don't think he had any value because I think he's too expensive. I think for what they would have gotten back from him, it would have been a sell-off and, you know, it wasn't worth it to them.

But was he available for the deadline? Yes. It was reported. They were willing to discuss it. There just wasn't a logical trade for him. But you think like, you know think they might have lost that trade. It's amazing. What were the odds of them losing that trade two years ago?

10-1 against? What makes the Knicks winners? Just getting rid of Porzingis? Well, they basically created the salary cap space that you could argue might have led to the Randall signing.

Okay, all right. They got Dallas' first-round pick. They're not paying Porzingis $30 million a year, which apparently nobody wants to do. That's the W. That was the shrewd move. That was the right call for them. It's interesting, though.

He's never rebounded. But it goes back to the Barkley thing, where Barkley goes, how do you not get 10 rebounds a game? It's five and a half. It's two and a half a quarter. You can't get 10. You could argue on offense,

he's too far away to ever get an offensive rebound. It doesn't explain the defensive stuff, but I just don't like the look of that team. So to go back to the play-in stuff, the case for them in a playing game or a playoff series is just Luka goes off and they hit some threes, which is doable. I just don't know in a four out of seven, if it's, if it's doable for them. And I really like, I think Memphis, if Dallas, Portland, Memphis, I think Memphis, as crazy as this sounds, has the highest upside of those

three in a playoff series. The only thing with Memphis that's still a question mark, and I'd be interested, I have to talk to Verno about this to get his full... You might as well talk to the Memphis owner. You're going to get a straight Grizzlies answer from Verno? Come on. No, but they still

have a crunch time scoring issue. I've just watched them too many times in games that they had a legit chance of winning or letting teams come back on them. And just because they can't score inside of four minutes. Well, does Jackson help that? Arguably, yes. I mean, he's already shooting high percentage and he's got like 50 points in his first two games back. 55 points, something. You know what's amazing? Valen Shunis was

having a good season. I had him in the Fantasy League. Ben and I put a team together in my dad's Fantasy League that you've been in. We had Jonas as one of our guys. He starts and he puts up numbers every game. He's 17 and 13 rebounds every game. Only playing 17 and 13 rebounds every game,

only playing 28 minutes a game. And now you add Triple J, Brooks is averaging 17, Jha's 20. The team's going to be able to score. And I think their depth is what makes them so interesting in a playoff series because you have those four guys, you have Slow Mo, Grayson Allen, who's turned into a pretty good role player. Brandon Clark. Melton. Desmond Bain. That team's deep. I agree. And I would not want to see them

at least in a playing game. I guess the question for me in a playing game is the job piece of it because I can't say I love his shot selection. He kind of has that little bit of hero ball mentality when it gets late, and I'm not sure he's that guy yet. That's it. I mean, that's the limitation for them. They have to figure out something to address that.

The team that has no excuse and should just apologize to America is New Orleans. They're 26 and 34. I have personally witnessed them blowing 12 games late because of bad coaching. 10 to 12, easy. They just always do the wrong thing in the last four minutes of a game. Van Gundy, I think, is the worst coach in the league.

I really do. I think he's the worst coach of the league. I really do. I think he's the worst coach in the league. That team, they're getting 50 points a game from Zion and Ingram. Zion's completely unstoppable at the end of the games, completely unstoppable. Nobody knows what to do against him. And they have, I just can't believe that team is eight games under 500. I know you can. So here's the thing.

I'm not ready to put it all on SVG. It's apparent that there is a communication gap of some sort between him and the players because he finally last week is like we had a defense for this situation. I can't remember which game they blew. It was the game when

they were up three against. They blew a seven point lead in yeah, no. It was the game when they were up three against... They blew a seven-point lead in the last minute of the Knicks game. And then they were up three with seven seconds left. That's right. And somehow gave up a wide-open three. A wide-open three. Up three.

And he said, coming out after the game, there was no issue with the defense that we called. And even Bledsoe. Bledsoe's like, I lost focus. But I mean, we're 60 games into a 72 game season and you're fighting for your playoff life. And I lost

focus. I'm sorry. It is a front office coaching combo. And player. But the Drew Holiday trade. Okay. They're basically rolling the dice with that trade that Milwaukee's not going to sign Giannis.

So, what were the odds Milwaukee was going to not sign Giannis to the Supermax? What were the odds? Like, I don't know, plus 300? Plus 350? They get all these picks back that are ultimately meaningless because Giannis is on the team. They're all these picks back that are ultimately meaningless

because Giannis is on the team. They're all going to be late first rounders. And then they have to take back the Bledsoe and George Hill contracts. Bledsoe, top seven or eight contract you don't want. They did Milwaukee a huge favor with that. And then they take George Hill and they send him for Adams and then they pay Adams. And give them a pick.

So now you have Adams and Blitzo. Those are two of, I would say the top 12 contracts you wouldn't want right now. That's what they turned Drew Holiday into. They should be embarrassed. And guess what? Drew Holiday is really good. That's the problem. Could you have made the playoffs with Drew Holiday and Zion and Ingram?

What they lost in basketball IQ, they didn't recover through any of the moves that they made afterwards. And that's the thing. It is, by a long shot, the most underperforming team in the league. When you look at the talent, when you look at the depth, that team should be five or six games above 500. And all of the metrics that show their performances in close games, they're at the bottom of the league. They've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory 20 times, it feels like. And we've watched 15 of them.

You, me, and Rousseau, we text during all of them because they have a guy who's shooting 60% on their team who somehow doesn't get the ball in the last three minutes. It's unbelievable. I just can't believe that team is 26-34. They're going to miss the playoffs. Oh, 100%. So possible playoffs.

I just sketched this together. Let's put the Celtics in. Let's say the Celtics somehow beat your dumb Wizards team. We could have a Brooklyn-Boston round one if Boston lost that 7-8. That's a 4-0 sweep. That would be the worst 10 days of my life,

I think. I was trying to think of a worst 10-day stretch. I could actually probably find one. It's a 4-0 sweep, bud. And Kyrie, who... By the way, Kendrick Perkins, shout out to Kendrick, pointing out how Kyrie, when he had like 40 against the Celtics, stayed on the court, hugged everybody.

But when he went 4-19 on Friday night, guess who walked off the court without hugging everybody? Kyrie. Yeah, we noticed that, Kyrie. But the Brooklyn kicking Boston's ass while Kyrie hugs all the Celtics after the game is, I'm just not ready for it. It would be worth it for me. That would make Washington not making the playoffs worth it to me. Philadelphia-Charlotte is a possible 2-7. I mean, all this stuff could change in three days. But right now, it'd be Brooklyn-Boston, Philly-Charlotte, Milwaukee-Miami. That's delightful.

Looks like we might actually get that one unless Boston sneaks in. But Milwaukee-Miami will be a great one, right? That's an all-time Titanic first-round slugfest. Banger. And then Knicks-Atlanta, 4-5, would be a delight. A sheer delight. Yes. nicks atlanta four five would be a delight yeah sheer delight yes we're gonna lose all of our hawks bets and all of the hawks slander and the hawks fans all five of them have tweeted at us but i will say this the combination of nate mcmillan plus uh bogdanovich coming back but

i didn't realize until uh pelton has a story up on ESPN today and did a nice investigation of how the Hawks righted the ship. Bogdanovich came back the same day that McMillan started. So they're 20-7 with him at the point. And Trae Young's injury, 5-0 since he got hurt. Hold on, hold on.

The Ewing Theory Committee is on the line. Hold on. Hold off, guys.wing Theory Committee is on the line. Hold on. Hold off, guys. We need to get to 8-0. Listen, they play better with Bogdanovich. It's just a fact. That's true. It's just a fact.

Their offense looks better with him. And Trejo figured it out. Tre's a young player. But they just play better with Bogdanovich. And Bogdanovich has never played this well. And I say it every time his name comes up on this pod. It's an absolute disgrace. It's an absolute disgrace.

I'll say it a third time. It's an absolute disgrace that the Kings just let him go. Yeah. They just let him leave. They got nothing. He's good at basketball. How is that? You have five assets on your team

and you let one of the assets just leave. The fuck are you doing? They thought they were harvesting other assets. They had other assets out in the field. Keep them and then figure it out. Trade them. Trade Buddy Heald. Trade Fox.

Bogdanovich is good. We've seen Knicks Atlanta this year and it was awesome. Yep. Knicks Atlanta was super, and it was awesome. Yep. Nick's Atlanta was super fun. I'm rooting for it. That's a great series. Let's root for that. And then in the West, so the dream scenario would be Utah Golden State.

Unbelievable. I'm going to try to, after the pot ends, I'm going to walk around LA and try to find the one person rooting for Utah in a Golden State Utah series. Phoenix, Portland could be our 2-7. Pretty juicy. How about that one? Chris Paul, Dame? We want Portland to be all the way healthy.

Yeah, I'm skeptical. Okay. Clippers, Dallas would be our 3-6. Denver, Lakers would be the 4-5. And ironically, Denver's the team you want to play out of the top five teams because of all the injuries. It's too bad. It's such a bummer.

It's such a bummer. Now Will Barton's hurt. I know. And he was going off. I mean, he had a 27-7-6 game last week. It's too bad. Joker's going to win MVP. Joker right now is minus 380

for MVP and B is plus 350. This was the endurance season and he endured. Some more fun bets on FanDuel that I just thought we should look at. There's a division bet. Oh.

Clippers minus 145. Phoenix plus 100 for the Pacific. Right now, Phoenix has a one-game lead over the Clippers. And if you do even a little more investigation, Phoenix started out 8-8, and they're 34-10 since. I have no idea why the Clippers are favored. I looked at the schedules. Phoenix seems a little harder, but I just think if you're going to play

the schedule game with this stuff, it's really hard because you don't know who's playing, you don't know who's going to sit. I think Phoenix wants that two seed. Oh, interesting. Um, no, I mean, I'm saying I want the, you get the two seed by winning the Pacific.

I don't, I think Phoenix is going to really try to win that division. Whereas the Clippers, who the fuck knows? Like Paul George could be like, I had, I had a Mac and cheese. I ate too much of it.

I'm going to have to sit out today. I don't know what to expect from them. I, I don't disagree, but Paul George has been awesome. Can we, I mean, we have to acknowledge it.

He is. I have, I have something for him at the end here. Okay, good. But he could still eat too much mac and cheese and miss the biggest game of the year. I mean,

he missed the game cause he had too much coffee. Yeah. Too much coffee. You ordered a Trent to red eye. You've never had to miss anything. Yeah. It doesn't not make me dizzy. So, Denver Lakers.

I hate to sound like a pissy Lakers hater because I'm a pissy Lakers hater. What a fucking gift for them to fall into a Denver matchup in round one when Denver doesn't have Jamal Murray and God only knows who else they're not going to have at that point. Lakers have played this perfectly. They took their time with Davis.

They're taking their time with LeBron. They'll be in that 4-5 matchup. And then, you know, then they get the winner of Utah and whoever. They're going to beat Utah. This is perfect for them. I like what you're doing here because where they sit in the rankings right now,

it's not crazy that they drop down to six. And if they drop down to six, that starts to get interesting, right? Because then they're playing one of Phoenix or the Clippers, most likely, in the first round. Well, they're 35-25. Dallas is 33-26. So they got a game and a half lead over them,

and Portland's not catching them. I think the Lakers are getting their guys back. They'll go on a run. They're going to be the five seed. They want to be the five seed. They want to play Denver. Okay. All right. That's the perfect team for

them. All right. So the Lakers last year lined up perfectly for them. They took advantage. And this year, it looks like it's going to line up perfectly too because they'll have Phoenix and the Clippers beating the shit out of each other in round two. And then Phoenix and the

Clippers will both have harder round one games too. So that's perfect. Um, there's of the, of the Phoenix, of all of those matchups, Phoenix, Portland, I think has the highest upset potential, even though I really liked that Phoenix team. Well, cause we, we know what Portland's capable of in the, in the playoffs. If they're healthy, it's that that's the humongous caveat. Well, they're also very similar teams, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's backcourt v. backcourt. Yes. I don't totally know what I'm getting from my center position game to game against... I don't totally know what I'm getting against my center position. It's swing guys. I hope these threes go in on both sides.

I think Phoenix would win this series, but I think that's a fun one. All right, let's take one more break and then I have a couple more things for you. Two more division bets, just for fun. Philly is minus 120 to win the Atlantic. Brooklyn is minus 105. What's interesting about that is Brooklyn is actually a game and a half up on Philly. I guess they're factoring the heart and stuff.

I actually, I like Brooklyn in that scenario. I think, cause I think it's more likely and bead misses a couple of games. Um, but to me, that's probably a stay away. Everything went, went South. I mean, Philly just went on that four game losing streak. Yep. Uh, and that, that, that they had, they beat Brooklyn last week to, to clinch the tiebreaker against Brooklyn.

But now Milwaukee has the tiebreaker over them because Milwaukee beat him twice. Right. And then the other one is Atlanta has a two game lead over Miami right now. They're minus three 60 to win the division. Miami is plus 300. Here's a Atlanta schedule the rest win the division. Miami is plus 300. Here's Atlanta's schedule the rest of the way.

And again, I hate the schedule thing. But at Detroit, at Philly, at Philly. Oof. Home for Chicago, Portland, Phoenix. At Indiana, two home games against Washington in a row but then they end with Orlando Houston so those are two wins so yeah

to me it seems like you always split the back to backers so it feels like minus 360 is good I like a parlay of Atlanta minus 360 with Phoenix plus 100 what's that pay? probably in the 180 range a parlay of Atlanta minus 360 with Phoenix plus 100.

What's that pay? It's probably in the 180 range, I would guess. So here's something Fandul didn't have, but I asked them what the odds would be. It's not on their site, but I thought this was a fun bet. And look, Fandul made a big commitment to us. I don't know why they haven't made us conciliaries for some of the bets on the website. Why isn't there a scoring title bet? Oh, this is what a great race. They can do it.

There's time because even last night, Beal went off for 33. They got that game. And my question is, is Steph looking, do you think he's looking? Cause he went out and put 37, and he had time to see exactly what Bradley Beal came in at. First of all, is Steph looking is the dumbest question you've asked on this podcast today. He 100% wants to win the scoring title. And yeah, I think Beal does too, but Beal's also trying to make the playoffs. So I think it's harder.

Both of them are, but I think that the Warriors are kind of in. So Steph can kind of game it a little bit. Golden State's last two games are New Orleans, Memphis, both home games. New Orleans could be the one where he puts up like 67. Yeah. I said 60,

60 is the floor. Right now. Curry is 31.3. Yeah. Beal is 31.1. So it's dead even. I asked Fandle if there were odds, what do they think the odds would be? What would the range be? Because I thought it would be like Curry minus 200. They said Curry minus 400, Beal plus 300. Because they just think Curry would be too public of a bet fandle put your big boy pants on and put the bed up what are you doing come on fandle we're gonna lay all that juice jesus

hey i don't know i kind of like beal at that price maybe a tight if beal is street or an underdog like who knows you know like curry could tweak an ankle. Well, the thing with Curry is he can't do it for all 12 because we saw last week when Washington came back from 11 down in the fourth quarter and beat the Warriors, he gets tired. I mean, he can't do it every single night. He had an off game. He was just flat out exhausted.

Beal has San Antonio, LA, Cleveland, Dallas, Indiana, Milwaukee, Toronto, Indiana, Atlanta twice, Cleveland, Charlotte. It's a hard schedule for Washington to the finish here. That's a really fun bet, though. A couple more bets. Look, as we've discussed many times, it makes way more sense to bet round by round, game by game, with things you like versus the futures. That doesn't stop us every year from making future bets, just for the record.

But Philly is plus 440 to win the conference. Phoenix is plus 950 to win the conference. And the Lakers are plus 170 to win the conference. Now, I don't think the Philly odds are quite good enough, but I do think they're off. I personally think they should have as good odds as Brooklyn or Milwaukee. I think they should be in the two and a half range, not plus 440. Phoenix, if they're a two seed, especially if you have a Lakers-Utah round two potential where Phoenix could potentially have home court in a conference championship against the Lakers, I just think plus and Phoenix is 24-1. And again, I think if you're getting a two-seeded 24-1,

I just think it's good value. I would not recommend doing any future bets. Go round by round. But if you're doing future bets, I would look at those two Phoenix bets. What do you think, House? It's just for bragging rights to do the future. Like, oh yeah, I had Phoenix.

Like how we had Miami last year. Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's just for bragging rights. Of all of what you just described, I like the Lakers at plus odds to win the West. Well, so that's why I brought it up because I think as soon as LeBron comes back,

that price drops to even. I think people watch them again and they're like, holy shit. Because look, some really good things happened for the Lakers while those guys were out. They got incredible Kuzma reps. I think Kuzma went up a level. The defense with him was the thing that I always kind of appreciated with him

because there were games last year when he just looked elite defensively. He just wasn't consistent enough. I don't think he was getting enough playing time. I think he went up a level and Schroeder got a lot of reps. They just were able to figure out what Drummond is for them potentially, what that's going to look like in a playoff series. And I just think if they're healthy, that team's better than they were last year you and you and I come at this the exact same way I honestly think LeBron could be playing now and I don't have any inside you know inside scoop on exactly what his physical status is I just mean

this was a great great great time for him to catch some rest and gear up for this two month playoff run. He did all that he could at the beginning of the season to make his mark, to be in the MVP race, to, you know, and as soon as, as he, uh, had the bad luck with the ankle, then he pivoted because I, I, you know, I do think Le think lebron is is is playing a little chess here he pivoted to how what's going to put us in the best position to go on a run through these playoffs and a big part of that is let me get my rest let me rehabilitate because the amount of time they had after winning the title to starting the season again right before christmas they had the least amount of time to recover from the bubble so So him catching his rest now makes sense to me.

And once he realized MVP was gone, that made that decision a lot easier. I think they played it really smart. I think they have the best team. Right now in FanDuel, Brooklyn's plus 220 and the Lakers are plus 350 to win the title. That's insane to me. The Lakers have to be the favorites.

And LeBron will be healthy. Davis will be healthy. The Lakers not being the favorites is stupid because if they play Brooklyn in a series, they're going to have real-size matchup options against that team that I think are going to... Who's guarding Davis on Brooklyn? What are they doing?

Who's guarding Harden? Or who's guarding K on Brooklyn? What are they doing? Who's guarding Harden? Or who's guarding KD from LA? The Lakers were the best defensive team in the league last year. We know they can do it. And look, if Brooklyn's going to make crazy shots, they're going to make crazy shots. But the Lakers are going to have the best chance to stop them. I agree with that.

Slow them down. And now that, I don't know, I think the Lakers should be the have the best chance to stop them. I agree with that. I totally agree with that. Slow them down. And now that, I don't know, I think the Lakers should be the favorites. I think it's stupid. Before we go, I'm just going to do an All-NBA check-in with you. As you know, I love All-NBA. It's my favorite.

I take it really seriously. I spend way too much time on it. We have 12 games left. Games played is going to be a bigger factor, I think, than it's ever been. That's appropriate. LeBron's played 41 of 60. Harden's played 42 of 60, but he basically looks like he's done now. Giannis is at 51 of 60. Paul George and Kawhi, 46 out of 60, each of them and bead 41 out of 16 curry 53 out of 61 so um so the honest games missed isn't as bad as maybe um i thought so here so here's what i have right now for first team now luca is a guard by the way yokich curry luca so those are my centers and two guards.

Giannis. Julius Randle. So you said first team? First team. Well, I was prepared to sit here and argue with you about Luka as a guard because... He's a guard. He's their point guard. No, I understand. And for the purposes of the way...

He was guard last year. Yes. No, I'm not arguing for the purposes of, of, of, you know, the, he was guard last year. Yes. No, I'm not arguing with the classification. Does he deserve the first team this year? He, based on what,

the way this season started, how, how out of shape he was. There's still, I can't blame him for that though, because nobody knew the season was going to start when it was starting all of a sudden, you know, and he was out of shape for two weeks. I don't think we can hang them on that one. I just don't think that a team that's five or six games above 300,

500, five, I mean above 500 with him and the role that he plays. Yeah, but they got 39 games out of Porzingis. They had a bunch of COVID shit. Kleber missed, you know, one third of the season. Luka's 29, 8, 9.

It's him or Dame for that spot, I think. Unless you were going to make a CP3 case. I was going to make a CP3 case. I have him more for MVP than this. CP3. All right, that's fine. I'll accept it. Julius Randle.

Let me hear about that. Well, it's him. It's accept it. Julius Randall. Let me hear about that. Well, it's him. It's Kawhi, Paul George, and then maybe LeBron. If LeBron, now this is a snapshot of right now. If LeBron plays,

you know, comes back this week and he ends up playing the last 10 and he can get to 51 games, we can reevaluate. But I just think Randall's played every game, 24, 10 and six. He's having an offensive season

on par with Barkley's 1993 MVP season he is by far the best player in that team that team is going to be a 4 seed they're peaking at the right time he's the alpha dog and he's been fucking awesome and at some point you just got to be like

was this guy one of the 5 best players in the league this year and I think he was I'm not saying he's one of the five most talented players in the league. I'm just saying, did he have one of the five best seasons? I think he had one of the six best seasons because Embiid has to be in there too. But I think he deserves it. If it ended today, I think he makes it.

I can't believe 2021 is the year that you let the New York people take over the ringer website. I mean, really took over all, all, all, everything having to do with the ringer. Johnny jazz is doing this thing. Now just Schremski is out there. Uh, I mean, everything's every, every two days I see a new Nick story on the site. Uh, I mean, I enjoy the Knicks. I love the turnaround tibbs is gonna win coach of the year randall's gonna win most improved player they both deserve it it's great for basketball to to have madison square garden bumping come come playoff time but you're you're leaving so

who would you put over him then kawaii paul, or Paul George? It would be Paul George for me. All right. So Paul George has played 46 of 60 games. You're saying those 46 games were better than Randall's 60 out of 61? Well, for what he's done to keep that team afloat over the course of the season, I think it's been an outsized offensive performance. Okay. And if they get the two seed and they're right there, you know,

neck and neck with Phoenix, then I like Paul George better. Okay. I had Paul George second team. I have second team. This again, snapshot 12 games to go and bead Kawhi, Paul George, Dame, CP3. And then third team, Gobert, LeBron, Zion. And then it's probably Mitchell and Booker. If Harden's just not going to play again,

I don't see how Harden makes third team NBA playing 42 games. Yeah. I don't think you can miss 40-something percent of the season. Yeah. I agree with that. So it's actually a good outcome because I think Booker, I've just been so impressed with him. I really like watching Phoenix,

and I think Booker has gotten better as the year has gone along. And crunch time-wise, I love the shots that he's getting. I really, really, really like watching them. They're super fun to watch, and good on them for using the play-in, those eight games pre-bubble last year,

to really launch the direction of the franchise. And pulling in CP3 has been nothing but an enormous home run what's crazy to me is i because of the unique way the season has played out and you just ran through the games guys have played you could easily easily convince me that you're all um nba second team is the all nba first team you could swap the two and i wouldn't i wouldn't um have any heartburn with really anybody other than Curry. I would want Curry to stay first team. So if, if Paul Georgia or Kawhi finish the last 12 strong and the Knicks dip a

little bit, maybe that flips, but I'll be really interested to see where Randall lands because what he's done with the Knicks this year is unbelievable. They do not have a good team. It's been a coach who has done an awesome job game after game after game and a guy who has really embraced being the best player and all the

responsibility that it comes with on both ends for durability coming through and crunch time taking defensive, you know, responsibilities. So it's not just the offense, setting up other guys, making them better. And the fact that they've pretty much whiffed on this Mitchell Robinson season because he kept getting hurt, unfortunately. And they have Noel and Taj Gibson.

That's their rotation for the five spot? And they're 34 and 27? I'm just saying. This is pretty nuts. Your love letter to New York in 2021. Who would have guessed it? I love it.

You got to go on JJ's show and just slam New York for 20 minutes. I got to say, by the way, before we go, Francesa was on JJ's show last night. And it was a tour de force it was

so good to hear francesa again his de grom thing was one of the best three minutes i've ever heard from francesa oh i have to go on and listen i haven't heard it yet he did this de grom thing it was almost like he was trying to get fantasy to self-combust this this de Grom monologue he had was awesome. Anyway, all right, House, fairway rolling. We're back next week. We actually have a couple, we have, have you heard of Andy Roddick, the tennis player? He's

coming on our golf show. Great. I know you've heard of him. I was a dumb effort at a joke. And we didn't get to NFL draft odds, but I'm going to do that with Peter Schrager tomorrow. Oh, good. So that'll be up. When's that going to be up?

Wednesday? Tuesday night, yeah. Tuesday night, because I have some work travel this week and I have about five hours of a car ride. I'm just going,

I can't wait. I need to get, what a draft this is going to be. I'm so excited. So good. One of the best ones ever. All right, House, thanks. Good times.

All right, my friend Wesley Morris is here from the New York Times. We intentionally did not text about the Oscars last night because I knew he was coming on. It was quite a telecast. They eliminated clips and jokes, which I thought were two essential parts of an Oscars telecast. Turns out they were essential. Guess what I missed? Clips and jokes, which I thought were two essential parts of an Oscars telecast. Turns

out they were essential. Guess what I missed? Clips and jokes. Let's start there. I thought it was too weird. I did not like the telecast. I went into it thinking it was going to be great. I really, really thought it was going to be... The idea of them doing it in Union Station, I had a lot of questions about what was going to happen to Union Station culture for the time that the Oscars was going to descend on that train station. Where were those people going to go? Where did they displace all of this life

that just exists around that station? But then I thought, well, it seems like if they're going to change the format, the sort of technical filming format so that it looks less like TV and more like a movie, I'm like, well, maybe there's some other plans that Steven Soderbergh, who is one of the producers of the show this year, had in mind for how to conduct things. But then it opened. I don't know how you felt about this, but when it opens and Regina King grabs that Oscar, and she makes her way across the station into the main hall, I'm like, well, if the whole night's going to be like this, I'm in. I don't care where we go.

But it became pretty clear once Regina King then did her actual duties, she had to then fet each and every one of the screenwriting nominees, which is 10 different parties. It was like, okay, well, this is going to be the Oscars. Masturbatory. Well, I mean,

I was going to take that and go somewhere really gross with it. But yes, we'll just stop at Masterpiece. I should have done, when I introduced you, I should have done, Wesley Morris, your work for the Boston Globe and Grantland and the New York Times has inspired all of us.

The way you've written about movies. What is this? What what is this 30 seconds of blowjobs for every person who's dominated this is our telecast who wants this yeah give me some clips if laura dern and regina king and you know joaquin phoenix they're they're the people who are doing that sort of back padding, I'm not, I don't have a problem with that. Like I am one of the few people who liked it when the old way,

when like Julia Roberts would come out or Helen Mirren would come out and say, Hey, five best actor nominees. You guys are incredible. Yeah. And I loved watching you work. I loved watching you work and I loved watching you work great get it done in 40 seconds

right but I if you gave if you said Wesley what would you rather have would you rather see clips of the nominated performances for 30 seconds and you can't have people like Helen Mirren and Julia Roberts and Oprah Winfrey come out and say and pay

tribute to the nominees would you take the clips instead of that I'd be like of course I just want Leah Roberts and Oprah Winfrey come out and say and pay tribute to the nominees, would you take the clips instead of that? I'd be like, of course. I just want the clips. The clips are so important both for the movies and for people who are watching this show at home and have no idea who some of the nominees even are. So that's the key point. They created this Oscars telecast for basically the 1% of people who understand every piece of the telecast.

And I'm sure those people thought it was cool. This is supposed to be one of the biggest ratings night of the year. This is supposed to pull in people from all over the country, all over the world. And guess what? Almost all of those people haven't seen any of these movies. So you can bring the camera and be like, hey, here's this person. They wrote this. And somebody's at home going, I don't know what Mank is. What does it look like? They didn't even show it.

Yes, yes, yes. Especially this year. These movies, this is the most obscure set of movies we've ever had that were rolled out in the most obscure way possible, just on streamers. And I just can't believe they played it this way. I missed the clip. Sorry. I thought one of the most touching parts or one of the most riveting parts, the whole thing was in memoriam just because we got to see faces. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that was a huge deal deal I think that, you know, it's funny because I was thinking While I was watching, like, what is a thing that I would really Be sad if they didn't do, and, you know, I am a big sucker

Every year that I've watched this show, when they get Earl Morris To do those special tributes to people And their movie love. You know, I can remember the one, I think it was 2000 for the 2003 Oscars and 2002 Oscars. He had all these like bus drivers and IT guys and, you know, people who work in cafeterias come and talk about what they liked about the movies. There was no attempt to sort of hold movies up as this great art form that we all, that matters to everybody. If there were ever a year

to have some sort of corralling energy in that room, if there were any year to have a host, this is the year, right? A person who can take any stranger, bring them into the room, and explain to them what the stakes are, which movie has 10 nominations. We didn't know that going in if you got there at eight o'clock.

You didn't know what movie had- You didn't know anything. How about this? Frances McDormand has a chance to win her third best actress Oscar. Here's the fucking list of all the people who have done that. Spoiler alert, not a big list. There's no history, anything at all.

I'm with you. It's crazy. There's this really interesting mix that happened with the broadcast this year of hubris and desperation, right? The hubris on the one hand is to say that the movies mattering is somewhat unconditional, right? Like the movies will always matter whether they're on a streaming platform or in a movie theater.

And the Oscars will always be here to celebrate the best of those movies. But there's a delusion on the other hand, which they also understand is real with respect to the people nominated every year. So every year for the last, I don't know, how far back should we go? I mean, because Jesse Jackson, of course,

was calling for boycotts at the Oscars in the 90s because there weren't enough non-white nominees. I think that the Academy is really understandably being raked over the coals for who's not nominated every year. And this year, the one year they seem to have gotten it the most right in the deepest parts of the field, you had non-white nominees in the craft categories. You had women nominated in the craft categories.

More than one woman, too, in some categories. This was the year that they theoretically could have patted themselves on the back for getting this one thing right. But it also happens in the middle of a pandemic where the public can't see the movies. There's just no, most of the people, my sister forgot the Oscars were happening last night. She has seen none of the nominees.

That's never happened before. My sister who, you know, we didn't watch every broadcast side by side, but she knows how much the show means to me. She called me in the middle of the show, just wanting to shoot the shit. I'm like, I'm watching the Academy Awards right now. She's like, oh, that's right. I forgot.

Yeah, that's like calling me during game seven of the NBA Finals or something. We just got the ratings as we're taping this. It's almost 11 o'clock. Do you want to guess how far below percentage-wise it was from last year? Last year, it was 23.6 million viewers, which was the lowest rated Oscars ever. Yeah, yeah. 16? How about 9.8?

Wow, holy shit. It's 58% below the ratings from last year. From last year, which were really, really low. Last year was the lowest rated Oscars ever. Yeah, that was the parasite year too. So really, really low. Last year was the lowest rated Oscars ever. Yeah, that was the Parasite year, too. Here's the thing. There are real reasons for that rating to go down like it did. One is the fact that

the movies were just so kind of niche and obscure. Of course. But the other thing is I'm sure there are people sampling this who are just like, what is this? Where are the clips? Can I see some moving film? Or is this just going to be speeches and testimonials? And I think that was probably a bigger part of it.

That was a huge part of it. I also think another part of it was that I think that for a lot of people, they just didn't know when the Oscars were actually happening. I think there was just a lot of confusion. It's almost May. And I think people's schedule in terms of understanding when the show actually is supposed to be happening, that's thrown off. I think people don't know how many movies did they watch last year? Like to even check in to see if those movies got nominated. I think that there was a real, I mean, this is the hubris part and I don't want to, I can't

say what the Academy was thinking in terms of how it was going to celebrate these eight movies and the people nominated for Oscars in other categories. But there is this real disconnect between what people want from this show, whether they still care about it, the movies that Hollywood prioritizes making, right? I mean, the movies that tend to go to the Oscars, Hollywood no longer really makes, right? You and I have talked about this many times. There was that year after Moonlight won Best Picture where, I mean, I usually don't remember

half the things I say in life, but I remember specifically saying to you and Sean, Fennessey, that if Barry Jenkins was going to Netflix to make what we will soon see in a couple weeks is The Underground Railroad, which I've been watching, and it's working so far for me. But I was like, the movies are fucked if that's what Barry Jenkins, who should do whatever he wants to do. If this is the real choice for him, then it tells me something about where the movies are probably headed. And this was clear before he made that choice. But when you guys made me, I don't know who told me this or whether I came to the conversation knowing it already, but I had a

real sense that if a person who's as good at making movies as Barry Jenkins is, is going to make a multi-part, going to make a series out of Colson Whitehead's novel, then I felt like something really important was happening. And then two years later or three years later, Damien Chazelle makes First Man, which is not a movie I needed. I wasn't asking for another astronaut movie.

Brian Gosling in space, who cares? I didn't need that. But then you see the movie and you're like, okay, I know why that guy made this movie. He was thinking about how to use cinema as we understand it to function. And sound. And sound and to do something that you as an audience member know is going to be conventional. You've seen this a million times.

There's a wife on earth waiting for her husband to come back. But it felt and looked like and sounded like no other outer space you know american astronaut movie i had ever seen before and i knew when when when the public didn't want to see that and the academy didn't really go for it that something really crucial it changed about our movie going priorities and like what a pop movie even looks like now. I mean, The Martian, which I think was the year before that? Yes, 2015. That's a perfect example of the kind of movie

that just should be at the Oscars if it works for the public and works for the Academy. And I don't know that we're going to get very more movies like The Martian because they tried it two years ago when it was Ad Astra and that movie had all kinds of problems. Or last year, that was a last year movie. Or, you know, 2019.

I don't know, Bill. I feel like there really is a crisis. I think the Academy is trying to address one crisis with respect to women and race in representational terms. When really, the crisis is much bigger than that to me. I mean, it's an industrial crisis because you have all these non-white people making movies or trying to get into the business. But where are they going to go? What movies are they going to make?

I just feel like there's a whole middle... Comic book movies. Well, right, but I mean, that's not... Those aren't American stories. There's no regionalism in that. We talked about this the last time you came on. We talked about how disappointing this movie slate was, like for an Oscar slate.

One of the things was like a lot of these movies were just movies that were TV movies or HBO movies 15 years ago, right? Yeah. Like Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, that could have easily been introducing Dorothy Dandridge in 2007. That is harsh but fair. Harsh but fair. I accept.

You know what I mean? I accept. Yes, yes, yes. United States versus Billie Holiday, but fair. I accept. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. Yes. United States versus Billie holiday. Same thing. These are movies that the premium services used to throw big money at, and they would try to win Emmys in, but now they've become movies.

And what you're saying, like with the Martian, there's no Martian anymore. That's it. Those kinds of movies, the ambitious big budget. We have a lot of stars in this. Really?

The only one that tried to do that was the trial of the Chicago seven, which by the way, it was a TV movie. Yeah. I mean, it was a TV movie. We have a lot of stars in this. Really the only one that tried to do that was The Trial of the Chicago 7, which by the way, was a TV movie. It was a TV movie we've already had. HBO made it in the late 80s and they just did it again. Judas and the Black Messiah to me is like a movie. They really went for it. Yeah, that's another one. Mank? That's it. Mank is a... I mean, Promising Young Woman is the David Fincher movie

that David Fincher didn't make, right? Right. And I think that the thing that feels... I mean, my problem is, and I don't think I've really properly articulated this to you, but I think that the problem is that with the disconnect between the audience and the movies is that the movie, the public no longer gets to decide or has to say in what movies are popular

enough to make it to the Academy Awards. It's getting increasingly narrow that, that are increasingly wide that gap between what the public likes and what the studios are pushing to the academy in terms of you know oscar you know oscar oscar bait or whatever we're going to call these movies um and part of that has to do with the fact that there isn't a there isn't we're being audiences are being trained to expect movies to be a certain fit. And that means that stories about everyday people, movies like Nomadland or Judas and the Black Messiah or Minardi, I think we're getting out of practice in how to watch those movies and appreciate what it is they're doing.

Um, like the way back to me was like that too, where that was an old school movie. Right. And I thought Affleck, I thought Affleck could have been nominated for it. And it wasn't even like mentioned, but though,

if, if we're not going to respect the way back type of movies, people just aren't going to make them anymore, you know? And I think they're going to respect the way back type of movies, people just aren't going to make them anymore. I think they're going to gravitate more toward... It makes much more sense to make a movie like Judy or a movie like the Billie Holiday movie this year or Ma Rainey's Black Bottom. Just do these period pieces with some great role

for the lead person. Renee Zellweger won for Judy last year. It makes more sense to do that. It's not going to be that expensive. You'll need one or two stars. Critics are going to like it and you know you're not going to make money anyway but Netflix or Amazon might buy it.

Or Hulu. That's a depressing model. Ma Rainey's Black Bottom is interesting to me because it's a movie based on an august wilson play it's made by george c wolf who knows his august wilson the it just turns out that like that might not be the strongest august wilson play to turn into a movie well didn't get nominated for best

movie which should have been right in retrospect a red flag for the uh actor categories yeah i think well we can talk about what happened there in a second but i mean i think viola davis as we've discussed like that is a that performance in that movie is needed with all i mean george c wolf is one of our least appreciated directors of live entertainment and like as a real thinker of like of how plays work and what good theater can be. But this was a performance that, for me, needed a much bigger landscape to operate within. And that movie is so small. And she's really not in that much of it, which is another detriment, which probably didn't help her.

Frances McDormand is in every scene of nomadland the odds were crazy viola davis was plus 200 francis mcdormand was plus 400 and then carrie mulligan was the favorite at like basically plus 125 and i was on a bunch of gambling text threads this weekend trying to figure it out and it was was just like, Frances McDormand plus 400 because she won before? Like, honestly, not able to figure it out. And she ended up winning. And I don't know.

Should we do the Hopkins thing now? Sure. Yeah. Okay. So just take me to where you were when this happened. I mean, you mean, psychologically. I thought Boseman was a really special actor, just in general.

So when we do the posthumous Oscar, like Heath Ledger as the Joker, I truly believe he would have won anyway. I think he was that good and that important in that part. Yes, yes, yes, yes. This was a tough one for me because I really like awards. I think they matter. And I really like looking back and trying to litigate

who should have won, who should have lost, all that stuff I know I do with the NBA. I thought Hopkins and the Father was the best performance I saw, male or female, the entire year. I thought that movie was amazing. It stuck with me. I had trouble not thinking about it

for hours and hours after. I told my friends to watch it. I thought it was the most conventional, really good Oscars movie and performance. I thought Olivia Colman should have won for Best Supporting Actress. I thought Olivia Colman should have won for best supporting actress. I thought she was, and she was like 20 to one and she's like,

she's won before we can't vote for her. I thought she was incredible in that movie. I thought Hopkins, I think Hopkins is a really, you know, he'll go down as one of the 10 best actors of the last 50 years. He didn't need to win another Oscar. He'd already won.

He was amazing in that movie. Yeah, I agree. So your case, if you're complaining about who won best actor, it comes down to Bozeman was a special actor and this was our last chance to reward him. And I get it. So I was really torn

because I do feel like five, 10 years from now, we're going to look back at this category and feel like that was the best performance, male or female of the year yeah but i feel really bad that bozeman didn't win so i i was like i i was just really torn up about it yeah uh i'm exactly the same bill i feel like um i think that what they did was unfair in some ways um i you know what happened was you know we i don't should i even talk about this it became clear at some point that best picture was not going to go last while we were

all you know well we at the new york times were doing our live updates um and there was a kind of collective, like, are you, are you kidding me? Are you for real? And to me, that just kind of underscored my feeling about the primacy of movies at the moment in the culture. But it also said something about, you know, if they were going to have best actor be the last category, they, I mean, they, to the extent that they knew, they knew Bozeman was going to have best actor be the last category, to the extent that they knew anything. They knew Bozeman was going to win.

There was a certainty that Chadwick Boseman was going to win. He was a 33-1 favorite. Hopkins was plus 700 to win. I think everybody felt like he's going to win. He's the overwhelming favorite. I think that there was also this perception because the awards i mean it was really a horse race but you know a very close horse race between hopkins and bozeman throughout all of the you know all of those awards that happen until you get to the to the oscars and so it could have been either one of those guys i mean i knew going in i assumed it would have

would have been chaswick boz. I mean, I knew going in, I assumed it would have, it would have been Chazwick Boseman, but I was perfectly prepared for the possibility that Anthony Hopkins was going to win. I don't think a lot of people were prepared. Well, because, well, that's the whole problem, Bill. The storytelling around these awards, if you really want to not have people throw their TVs in the garbage at 11, 12 p.m. when the show is over, you kind of have to set up stakes. And I didn't see a lot of ads for the Oscars that were like, is Anthony Hopkins going to beat Chadwick Boseman?

Is Viola Davis the most titanic performance of 2020 and 2021. Or will Frances McDormand squeak it out? I mean, there was no attempt to sort of dramatize the stakes. There was no culturally persuasive attempt to dramatize the stakes. Or you could even do that. Could Anthony Hopkins be one of the oldest people who's ever won an Oscar? Whatever. Take your pick.

I mean, at this point in the academy wars they're 93 years old there's a lot i mean anytime somebody's making history you might want to be promoting that in your broadcast and i think that the public was really set up between you know i don't remember you remember this moment at the golden globes there was this great moment where they got this internet personality to go talk to these kids about actors they recognized or something, characters they recognized. I don't remember exactly what the setup was. But anyway, they got to chat with Bozeman and Black Panther after nobody knowing, being able to identify anybody else. They get to these little kids who are

able to not only identify Black Panther, but that's Chadwick Boseman. There is a thing that has happened since he's died where he has become legendary, both for his values, for the choice of characters he's played, and for the fact that he died. And how he played the characters too. Each one was a little different.

And I think it's one of those things you don't totally appreciate sometimes until somebody's gone. And I think that's why everyone wanted it last night because I really do think he was a special actor. Yes. And I think that he's James Dean now, right? He's a person who died way too soon, who

barely, I mean, you know, you can count almost on two hands all the parts he played, you know, significant parts he played. It's almost more like John Cazale, where it's like the IMDb is just too short.

Right, the IMDb is too short, but there was a sense in the culture that this guy was somebody and was going to become somebody right which is a little different from john casale fair um and so you get to the end of the show and you're like well clearly this is gonna this is this has the probability of ending with tyler boseman's widow going up and giving this rousing speech that she's been giving any time that he's won in the last couple of months. And instead you get Joaquin Phoenix saying Anthony Hopkins, and he's not curious to work on his behalf in the credits role.

I mean, there's not even an attempt to get a Jimmy Kimmel to come out and explain what had just happened or anything. It's really wild. It was a massive mistake because Hopkins was so good in that movie. And you think about the Academy, I know they made the Academy a lot more diverse, but you still have a lot of old white people in the Academy and that movie is, the older you are, the more you're going to be affected by that movie. I just think it was in play that Hopkins

had a chance to win, which is why it was, I just think it was in play that Hopkins had a chance to win, which is why it was, I just thought it was really risky because Hopkins was so good in that movie that regardless of what the gambling odds were and what the public sentiment was, you have an academy that still skews pretty old. And if you're a person, like I told my dad to watch that movie and my dad afterwards was like, why'd you make me watch that movie? I can't stop thinking about it. If you're 70 and over and you watch that movie, it's hitting you a totally different way. And the Academy's old. So I think it was conceivable that Hopkins was going to win. I just would have ended with Best Picture because guess what? At some point, you can't... The tradition of the Oscars is you end with Best Picture. That's

how you do it. At some point, you can't fuck with 90 the oscars is you end with best picture that's how you do it like at some point you can't fuck with 90 years of how they did the oscars just because you you want this big moment at the end because it's the theatrical thing to do i just really disagreed with how they did it and and then also like you should have known phoenix was gonna suck presenting the thing because that's sucks. Like he's a great actor, but his personality sucks. There was no way he was going to come through in any way, shape or form in that moment. So it was like that plus Bozeman might not win. It's like, what are you guys doing? How do you end the show with this?

Yeah. You don't get Warren. You're not getting a Warren Beatty moment, you know, which, you know, right. You're not going to have somebody like warren baity try to like under like help everybody understand you know ultimately that night with moonlight and la la land with jimmy kimmel and warren baity and you know the moonlight and la la land people trying to make sense of what just happened this was like everybody got dropped through a trap door or like it was a red wedding sort of situation where you just open it and then suddenly it's over. Everybody's been basically massacred. They just need to give him the Lifetime Award. They can get him some sort of recognition

and it's not going to be as good as winning Best Actor. But the other thing that you're it's a bummer i feel bad for hopkins this was the crowning point of his career and it's like everybody's like fuck that guy and it's like the guy was amazing in that movie so it sucks all the way around it's a sucky story right it sets up this really unfair thing where where it it just feeds a narrative that already exists you know um that the academy doesn't care about black people in leading roles and you know i i don't i'm not comfortable i mean i can't tell people not to feel that way but there's it's just more complicated than that

and yet it really ultimately is kind of reducible to that very simple form. So it's, it's, it sucks. But if you think about, if you want to, I mean, to the extent that we're giving credit to the Academy for anything, I mean, think about how overjoyed everybody was last year when Parasite won best picture. Like the, the, I mean, I've heard people talk about the volume in the room when, when, when Parasite was called and they, I've heard different people say that was the loudest they've ever, and, you know, decades of, of, of, of, you know, Oscar attendance. That was the loudest they'd ever heard the room in terms of just to shock and, and excitement that, you know, we've talked about this too. Like how many American men have won directing Oscars in the last 20 years? Not that many. And so there, I mean, in the ones who have won, I mean,

it's like people who have been do like Clint Eastwood and uh right Martin Scorsese um it's something is definitely happening in the movies where the people who we've done such a good job as Americans and Hollywood has done such a good job as an institution of showing people what it can do that now anybody can do it. And it's rewarding people for playing its game cinematically. But where does that leave American moviemaking? If you're inclined to think nationally or even regionally, where does it leave American moviemaking? It leaves it in a really precarious place. I mean, the movies are one thing, but then American movies are a totally different thing.

I thought the two best performances of the year that I saw, in my opinion, means less than yours because you do this for a living. I mean, I don't know. Hopkins and Francis McDormand. Oh, interesting. I would say Viola Davis and Anthony Hopkins. Interesting. Okay. Um, there's a couple other really good ones, but I mean, the top, I just feel like she Hopkins and Viola Davis. I just feel like how many, how many actresses make Nomadland work?

I didn't really even love Nomadland, but to me, that's like, that's like a LeBron James 2008 season where it's like, I'm going to have to carry every scene and do everything and run the offense. And I have to play every game and put the team on my back. This is a good point. I was thinking while I was watching Nomadland, how grateful I was though. You know what? The bad version of what you're talking about is Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Right?

Totally. Where she is taking the movie, throwing it on her back, and is just slinging it around and knocking people in the head with it. Kind of like what Glenn Close did with Hillbilly Elegy. Like, oof. Ding.

Ding dong. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it was, it was Glenn Close does Sling Blade in 2021. Put some more makeup on, make me uglier. Right,

right, right. But, you know, I think that it just sort of sucks that because these problems are so entrenched in the culture of people who don't even really watch the Oscars, but who understand what the,

what the discrepancies are and what the loose history of this, of the broadcast is. Cause it's the same history of everything else in this country. It just kind of sucks that we still have to relive this dynamic until it gets solved. Yeah, but the reason we have to relive it is because some fucking unbelievable injustices,

especially in the 80s and 90s, like Spike not getting nominated. This is why this is always going to be a thing. And I don't, I personally don't think it gets fixed because, and 90s, despite not getting nominated. This is why this is always going to be a thing. I personally don't think it gets fixed. Anytime something like this Hopkins thing happens, it's always going to be the default for a lot of people. It's just going to be the way it goes.

That's it. Deserve it because of how the Oscars have gone. It wasn't like Keith Stanfield lost to Anthony Hopkins, right? Chadwick Boseman, who we've discovered in the last six months, is the most valuable American movie star America had and didn't even really know it until he died. Yeah. I mean, that's a thing that a lot of people aren't going to forget. It's unfair. It's totally unfair.

The best outcome would have been Bozeman winning. And five years from now, us talking about Hopkins was actually, that was the performance of the year. And it's fine because he already won. It all worked out. We all understand what it means to give a posthumous Oscar or to give a belated Oscar. It happens all the time, unless you're Glenn Close. So I feel like...

Wait, I have a quick historical thing for you. Sure. Because I do... It is weird and then we can go. I know you're sharing internet with somebody. It is weird we don't talk about this stuff in any sort of historical context, right? I think if you ask the average

person who loves movies, what actor or actress won loves movies what actor or actress won the most best actor or actress awards i think most people would not know yeah right i mean i i know but that's you know best or best actress right yeah so the answer for the people listening is katherine hepburn she won four yes she. She won for Morning Glory, Guests Come to Dinner, Lion and Winter, and On Golden Pond. On Golden Pond. My wife loves that movie, so be careful.

I love you, Penny. The three Oscar club, of course, not mentioned during our three and a half hour podcast last night, which Frances McDormand joined. Yes. It's Meryl Streep,

who won two Best Actress and then a Best Supporting Actor. She won Sophie's Choice, The Iron Lady, Kramer vs. Kramer Supporting. Jack Nicholson, three. Yep. Cuckoo's Nest, as good as it gets in terms of Endearment Supporting.

Ingrid Bergman, two, and then one one for best supporting for Murder on the Orient Express. Daniel Day-Lewis, three best actors. My Left Foot, There Will Be Blood, Lincoln. Walter Brennan won three best supporting actors, never won for best actor. Oh, man. Walter Brennan. And now Frances McDormand became the third actor or actress ever to win three best actresses or actors. Not mentioned during the broadcast. So now she's in this fucking pantheon.

And I got to say, I'm here for it. I think she's an amazing actress. And her best performance, and my favorite performance of hers that she didn't win for was The Mom in Almost Famous, which is one of my favorite movies. Yeah. But I just think last 25 years,

if you're going to say who's the best living actress of the last 25 years, she has to be one of the first people that gets brought up, correct? Yeah. but you know what's funny is i bet you i wonder if like just a random sampling she's somebody with the it's crazy to say this about a person who just won her third oscar in less than is it less than 20 years like about like less than 30 years 25 years that she's under she's not underrated but she is i think there is a sense that like we can take it we take her for granted in some ways because there isn't a lot of variation among the parts right her saltiness is the driving engine you

know her yeah her biliousness um her her you know kind of kind of, her relentlessness, there is a kind of unsavory aspect of her same thing every time, but you know, you put it in different environments and it does a different thing. Um, I, I do wish that more, if you think about what happened to Beyonce at the Grammys, which is a totally different thing, but you know, when she won that, when she won that record breaking Grammy and became the most decorated Grammy-winning woman of all time, they stopped her as she was about to take her seat. Trevor Noah stopped her and he's like, hey, Beyonce, you just made Grammy history. And she had to stand there and be like, you know that face she makes when she doesn't know what's going on right Beyonce has to be like

I what did I do and he explains it to her and you know the Grammys had to do that to like apologize for all the non-major Grammys that they've not given Beyonce over the years um she's only one in these niche categories but the idea that there was nobody last night to say, hey, Francis McDormand, you just entered a very exclusive club. Glenn Close, you down there, you entered one too. But we won't celebrate that. But you, Glenn, you are- You're the Susan Lucci club.

Right. You and Peter O'Toole, great, great club. Well, that's why they should have ended with Best Actress. If they were going to try to get creative and not end with Best Picture, the safe move was ending with Best Actress because no matter how that played out, it would have been cool. Viola Davis winning again and cementing second Best Actress Oscar. Yep.

Right? Wasn't it Best Actress for Fences or was it Supporting? She should have won for Best Actress. That was the Emma Stone one for La La Land. So they moved her to supporting actress and she won for Fences and Supporting. That's a lead performance, but whatever. That was outrageous that she was supporting. That was like, how about Lakeith Stanfield as best supporting actor instead of best actor? He's in the entire movie. Why do we put up with this? Phil, why do we put up with this?

Phil, why don't we put up with any of it? This is the crazy thing. Quickly on Hopkins. The list of people who have won two best actor or actresses is not as long as you would think. Other than the people we mentioned, Betty Davis, Spencer Tracy, Marlon Brando, Jane Fonda, Dustin Hoffman, Hanks, Hopkins now, Gary Cooper, Levi de Havilland, Frederick March, Sean Penn, Elizabeth Taylor, Jodie Foster,

Glenda Jackson, and Sally Field. That's less than 20. That's quite a club. Hilary Swank. You didn't say Hilary Swank. She should be on that list. Oh, because I didn't keep scrolling down. There's more. Hilary Swank. You didn't say Hilary Swank. She should be on there. Oh, because I didn't keep scrolling down. There's more.

Hilary Swank. Louise Rainer? Who's that? Louise Rainer. Oh, Good Earth. Great sitcom, Good Earth. And Vivian Lee. Okay. So for actors,

it's way harder for an actor, I guess. It was easier for actresses for whatever reason. So Hopkins, and I think he has 1991 and 2020 might be the longest gap between the two that I can see.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. But I gotta say, with Hopkins, amazing actor. Yeah. Really did some good stuff over the years. I do think it makes sense that he's a two-time Oscar winner. I'm sorry. He should have won for that Pope movie, too.

The Two Popes. That was a really good performance and not a supporting part. I'm sorry. They put him in supporting to let Jonathan Price be the lead. But they were co-leads. I'm sorry. They put him in supporting to let Jonathan Price be the lead, but they were co-leads. I'm sorry. That's ridiculous. I would have voted for him for The Edge, too. Him and Baldwin fighting that bear. I mean, remains the day. Remains the day. Who won Best Actor that year? It was like him. Oh, Tom Hanks won for Philadelphia. I'm okay with that.

I'm okay with that too, but Remains of the Day. Oh my God. Anthony Hopkins in that movie. Come on. We did Manhunter on Rewatchables talking about the what if of if Brian Cox had just been brought back to be Sounds of the Lambs Hannibal again.

Would there have been a market correction with Brian Cox had just been brought back to be sounds of the lambs, Hannibal again, and is that, would there have been a market correction with Brian Cox and Anthony Hopkins? It's a great question. I mean, it's a great question. I feel like, I don't know what the casting situation was there.

Um, was there, were they talking about bringing Brian Cox in to do? Yeah, I think they wanted, they wanted. Okay. Yeah.

That makes sense. Um, I, you you know we're having this conversation about anthony hawkins and it just makes me sad that we'll never be able to have it about childhood boseman you know um there is a there's a version of this story where like you know 20 years from now we have this like depending on what where the movies wind up going which is another problem right the reason all those people have those two oscars is because the movies were they were making more movies where people stood a better chance of giving performances in like seemingly like mid-tier middle brow low stakes movies where such a thing could happen now it's it's it's really hard for francis

mcdormand for any other actor i mean although marusha ali did just he does have two supporting actor oscars in like four years um or less than four years so it's not it's it's gonna become a smaller field of people i think who are gonna pull this stuff off but it's also gonna be harder to do because they're just gonna be fewer movies right or it's gonna be easier to do i there's just going to be fewer movies, right? Or it's going to be easier to do, I will say, because there'll be fewer movies. And so the people giving these titanic performances are going to be the same class of people, I would predict. I think Daniel Kaluuya has a chance. Oh, he's definitely

going to have. I mean, again, that's a lead performance. I might have that too over McD I mean, again, that's a lead performance. I don't care what you say. I should have... I might have that too over McDormand, actually. The more I'm thinking about it. If Hopkins won... I thought he was awesome in that movie. I didn't think it was a very good movie, but I thought he was awesome. I mean, those are

both lead performances. I mean, I don't know what the difference splitting was all about, because you're not concerned about vote splitting, because you put these two guys in the same supporting category. So, I'm not sure what the difference splitting was all about. Cause you're clearly not, you're not concerned about vote splitting because you put these two guys in the same supporting category. So I'm not sure what the strategic, what the strategy was there. Well,

remember we were arguing for, for him for get out that year. Oh yeah. I mean, that was, wait, who won that year? I can't even remember now,

but I can't remember either. Did he even get nominated? It was Gary. It was Gary Oldman. That was Gary Oldman. Yeah. Great. I can't even remember now, but I can't remember either. Did he even get nominated? It was Gary. It was Gary Oldman. That was Gary Oldman. Yeah. Great.

I'll never forget that. I don't even remember. Yeah. You should double check, but Gary Oldman, I think is who won that year. Yeah. He was nominated. He just didn't win.

Yeah. You're right. Yeah. He should have won. I mean, that was, that would have been, I think that would have been my first choice

among those five guys. So you had, what was the movie, just so we can wrap up, because I know you have to go. So what did you have for best movie? What would you have voted for? If I were an Academy member,

I would have voted for Sound of Metal. That would have been my, of those eight movies, that would have been the one I voted for. That was another really effective movie. Yeah. The Father and Sound of Metal were my favorite two of those eight movies. You thought Hopkins was best performance in a vacuum,

but what would you have done? Would you have voted for Boseman or would you have voted for Hopkins? Oh, can I pass? You can pass. I'll let you pass. No, I'll be honest. I would have voted for Anthony Hopkins. Cause that's cause that's how my brain works.

That's how it works for me. I just, I would have voted for Anthony Hopkins because he gave the best of those. I mean, I've Riz Ahmed and Anthony Hopkins were my two favorite of those five. Listen though, I would have had no problem. I mean,

I would have been thrilled for Tabra Kuzma to win. And then who did you have for best actress? Viola Davis. Viola Davis. I mean, I liked Frances McDormand a lot. I did not have a problem. If she had won for three billboards, I would have jumped out a window myself.

I would have thrown, I would have lit myself on fire and thrown me out a window. Wait, I thought she did win for three billboards. No, she didn't. Oh yes,

she did. What am I talking about? You did jump out a window. I jumped out a window. What am I talking about? I'd still lock that out, but she did win. Yeah,

she did. Oh my God. She won for that horrible movie. Come on, that movie taught us about racism. Oh God. That's how little I liked that movie taught us about racism oh god that's how little i like that movie i can't believe i who who did i who would i like to have won that year i don't even remember the whole thing out

yeah that's you know the thing about the thing is for for me is i really did think going into nomadland that it was going to be that movie times two, but it was, it was, it was so much better than three billboards for all kinds of reasons. But I think part of it is that she was, there was a modulation to that character while being very true to Francis McDormand screen persona. There was a kind of, I don't know. It just, it was different from all the other acting she's been doing at this level of her,

of her career. There was a soulfulness and like a real introspection that, that she doesn't always get pushed to do in those, in these performances. And I think that, yeah, I have no problem with her winning.

I have a performance for you. Sure. I really like this HBO show that Kate Winslet's in, Mayor of Easton, whatever it's called. Oh, you like that? Okay. I'm not watching it yet. I'm not watching it.

I do. Well, you know I love Kate Winslet. As do I. Not more than you, but I do love her. It's a fascinating choice. Every choice she made from just being in this show to how she's playing it to... There's a couple pieces that we could talk about.

When we get to six episodes, we should regroup because it's really good. And I think she's really, really, really good in it. And it's just so different than any part I've seen her play. And I just, from a career standpoint, I just think she's brought a lot of different types of roles to the

table. Like she's pretty fearless and sometimes it's bad, right? The movie when she broke her leg in the mountains with Idris Elba, like that movie was terrible. She's made some stinkers. The Mountain Between Us. Oh my God, that movie's...

That's like a comedy. It's so bad. Oh my God. But when she's good, she's good. So anyway, I'll be interested for your thoughts on that one. I was kind of resisting it a little tiny bit because she was really good at Mildred Pierce, but I just feel like, again,

and I think one of the things that we're kind of talking about here a little bit bit because you know she was really good at mildred pierce but i just feel like again and i think one of the things that we're kind of talking about here a little bit is is not wanting things that we liked when they were one way to change and accepting that that they are changing but the but it's not like this i couldn't accept for instance the fact that she was making this this limited series on hbo when like i want to see her over making a movie right yeah but i think we kind of have to accept that that ship has sailed and um this isn't the same thing as like wishing that things would stay white at all but it is more wishing that you know if we have all these people if we have all these women

who can do all this stuff who like are being like finally acknowledged as being capable of doing it if we have all these non-white people capable of of you know who can who can write direct produce cast costume makeup hair design all of stuff. If we can have movies where important, great, entertaining, popular movies being made without white people, the idea that the opportunity to do that, the shift of the movies, fuck you. And so there's a kind of bitterness for me at all this opportunity because I don't know exactly. I'm eager to see where it gets plugged into. But you saying that about Kate Winslet just brought up all this resistance that I have had to what I understand is an inevitable,

probably irrevocable change, right? I was angry when we were talking about Barry Jenkins a few years ago, and I'm now not angry, even though what is happening is an industry doing this to itself for reasons, you know, for money, but so short-sightedly that it can't understand that like what suffers in in turning itself to ip into franchises is that you have to then deal with the problem of the oscars every single year the price you pay for all those avengers movies and all those king kong versus godzillas is a class a class of potentially mediocre to amazing movies every year at the Oscars that the public has no interest in because you aren't training them to love those movies too. And that's really bad. That's a good one to end on.

I was thinking about Kate Winslet and Little Children, which I think is an awesome movie. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a- Never happening again. Never happening. No, it's a limited series now, right? It's seven episodes. Yep.

Absolutely. Yes, exactly. And it's like, what's the better version of it? I'll tell you this. The movie's fucking awesome. And talk about sticking with you afterwards. It's one of those. Really, really creative, inventive.

I have no idea what happened to the director. Oh, Todd Field? Todd Field is just MIA. Yeah. I mean, Todd Field, I hope you're doing something fun or good. But yes, I mean- That movie's awesome. And it would be an HBO series in 2021, unfortunately.

Yep. Wesley, it was good to see you. Thank you for coming on. Great to see you. Always a pleasure, my friend. All Wesley, it was good to see you. Thank you for coming on. Great to see you. Always a pleasure, my friend. All right. I'll talk to you later. Feel the air Sweat down On the wayside On the first

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