The Bill Simmons Podcast - 'Billions,' 'Rounders,' and Andre the Giant With Brian Koppelman (Ep. 343)

Episode Date: March 23, 2018

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by ‘Billions’ co-creator Brian Koppelman to discuss the rewatchability of ‘Rounders’ (05:30), which ‘Billions’ character gets mentioned the most in real life (13:45), the show resonating with rappers and NBA players (1:04:00), and finding a way to make it entertaining without being campy (1:11:15). Then they discuss HBO’s upcoming documentary ‘Andre the Giant’ (1:24:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So today's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast on the ringer podcast network brought to you by zip recruiter. You didn't use zip recruiter to fill out the billions writing room, right? That was probably a mistake. You know what I've done ads for him. And let me say they're really, uh, help if I did need to, cause I know how hard it is to hire people. It's really hard to hire people. It's thank God for their powerful engine. 80% of employers who post a job on zip recruiter, get a quality candidate within a day. They are the best at distributing your job to the best boards, identifying the right people, inviting them to apply. My listeners can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS.

Have we ever done a podcast in person? I feel like we haven't. I feel like it's always been on the phone. Once at the studio in New York, maybe? I don't know. Maybe I went there and then we got you on that. Yeah, I don't think we ever have. No, we never did.

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A couple of podcasts to plug. Binge Mode, Miley Rubin, Jason Concepcion. They're doing a two-part billions. You can't miss it. This is one not for real. This is a podcast not to miss. They did season one. It's upions. You can't miss it. No, this is one not for real. This is a podcast not to miss. They did season one. It's up today. I saw it's up today. I didn't get to listen yet. Season two goes up. We're taping this on a Thursday. So by the time you hear this, both seasons will be up. They went super deep dive, super duper, duper deep dive.

So that's happening. And then the recapables, what an honor. I'm even on this. Me and Mallory, Sunday nights, Billions is on Showtime. Right after it's on, we put the pot up, little 20 minute breakdown. And she knows probably, I don't know, 10 times as much as I do about Billions. I just watch it and enjoy it. She knows like- I don't know, you'll send me questions. The assistant district attorney's assistant's name, like she's at a whole other level. I'm worried. I'm worried I'm going to get overpowered. You got to hang in.

But also you have a special resource that she doesn't have. Right. I mean, you can literally text me. I'll just text you and ask you what the hell's going on. So yeah, subscribe to the Recapables. That's Sunday. And if you're not listening to that already, we've been breaking down Atlanta, which is my favorite show not named Billions on TV.

I love Atlanta. And I rewatched the third episode with my son last night, even though there was strip club scenes. That's fine. I just didn't care. I just wanted him to have a sense of humor. And he was laughing at all the right parts. How old is he?

He's 10. You did this with your son, right? You know Sammy was watching stuff when he was 10. You have to. 100%. And then finally, One Shining Podcast, our college basketball podcast. On Monday, Al Pacino is going to be on. And I'm not doing a sports podcast

because we're running that one instead. So if you want your college basketball fix from Ringer people, what better place than One Shining Podcast? They're going to do podcasts, I think, on Friday and then Sunday night, breaking down whatever the hell happens in March Madness. Who do you root for in a Syracuse-Duke battle?

It's a terrible answer. It's like Darth Vader against Darth Vader. you root for in a Syracuse Duke battle? It's a terrible answer. It's like Darth Vader against Darth Vader. I root for Duke. You root for Duke. Because I met Coach K when I went to Jordan's Fantasy Camp. You're so easy to butter up. Jordan's Fantasy Camp, no. And I had him, this is what he did.

I said, can you sign a book to my son? My son was six or seven. And he wrote down to Sam, always try your hardest. And then he goes, wait, how old is he? And I said, seven. And he wrote down to Sam, always try your hardest. And then he goes, wait, how old is he? And I said, seven. And he changed to try your best. And he goes, I just want him to try his best. He doesn't have to try his hardest.

You're so easy. And I was like, that's it. I love Coach K forever. Anyone you meet, you'd be like, I met Donald Trump Jr. this one time. And he told me he loved Billion. So I don't know, maybe not a bad guy. I shook Donald Trump's hand once

and it makes me want to cut my hand off every day. Hi, half your listeners who I've just alienated. No, they're fine. Coming up, Brian Koppelman, co-creator of Billions, longtime friend, both of the pod of the Grantland Ringer Universe and of mine. And we're going to have him, but first Pearl Jam. All right.

So we've never done this in person. I feel like we've done this a few times. We even did this last year and I didn't go back and listen to it. And we go over things we've already talked about. I don't really care. I'm old. I'm at that point where I just tell the same story I told two years ago. And that's fine.

People know it. They accept it. The old thing just hit me because driving here, I know that when we met, I'm 51, almost 52. Yeah. And I was 33 or 34 when we met. Yeah. We met. Because we met in 2000. You do knock around guys. Yeah. We went to, I went to the screening. In Boston. You invited me. In Boston. So 2001. Still living in Boston. I wasn't even engaged to my wife yet. But she came. And she came. We went and then we went and got food after somewhere. Yeah. Somewhere, you know, I don't even engaged to my wife yet. But she came. And she came. We went and then we went and got food after somewhere. Yeah. Somewhere, you know, I don't know, like a spot that you guys knew that was near where

we saw the thing. And we had already kind of been pals over the internet. Just email buddies. Email buddies and phone buddies. Because back then there were phone, we would talk on the phone. Which is a weird thing. It's 01. Because I think, I didn't talk to you until I did that Rounders quotes piece.

It was like, we met the day and I called you the day after that, which is still probably one of the best movies I've ever used for that MBA. I used to do this. I haven't done it in a while, but I used to hand out MBA awards with quotes for movies and I would pick a movie rounders had some great ones for it. Really like top of the line, great quotes to give to people and make fun of the players.

And it was just perfect. Well, you know, and as I told you then I had been reading you. And then when I saw that, I just couldn't believe that you were back. It was your two favorite things combined into one thing. It all came together. They had the NBA and poker and rounders. And at that time that was, you know, you were like, we haven't talked about this in any of your pods i mean you were definitely one of the reasons that rounders had the life that it had you know because it was a bomb in the theaters the second shelf life the second shelf life thing when it became this movie that everybody watched over and over again on dvd you know uh well there's a couple factors though one cable that was like the heyday of just re-watching sure you said you would watch all the time they would play it all well yes but the the poker boom it all part it all came together

right um the movie gave people the language and then the whole card cam showed them something about how the game was played like each little thing built upon itself but i do think you made it cool to talk about movies like that in the way that you talked about them. And it was the thing that was whatever. I mean, people listening where we are a couple old guys reminiscing, but we, I think it's fair to look back a little bit at sort of when both of us were young. So I was 34, that's 17, right? That's 51 minus 17, 34. So you were like 30 or something like yeah i was i was probably 30 yeah and so like we were at the beginning yeah of trying to find our voices as professionals

doing this thing right and well you were also like at that point where you had to figure out because rounders you knew people loved it even if it didn't do well in the theaters. And then it's like, what's next? How do we keep this going? How do we keep momentum? How am I not writing copy for an ad agency in six years? Basically.

Yeah. I knew once we got the second movie made that it meant when we just had one movie made, it was like a dot on a graph and it meant nothing. But I knew once we had the second dot on the graph, now there's a line. And like, yes, we would have difficult, I'm not using the royal we, my lifelong best friend is my partner in all this. His name's David Levine. We do all this stuff together. I knew like once, then I felt like, okay, we'll have ups and downs. It'll be

one of these careers where we may not have a big hit or anything, but we will be in the game. And then, you know, again, I was thinking, I don't know, I guess you start to get, um, I guess I haven't slept in days. You start to get nostalgic. It's fun for me that like you were there at knock on guys and then you came and hung out for a day on oceans 13. Yeah, that's right. The fake casino. Yeah. You came and spent a day with us and had lunch with us in the oceans lounge. You met all those guys. Yeah. Was that the one? I remember seeing Pacino. Yeah.

And then he's sitting right there on that couch. It was pretty freaky. It must've been amazing to interview him. I gotta say- How'd you prep? Like, did you watch the other movies? No, I watched Paterno, which we talked about, which was actually surprisingly good. It was with Barry Levinson, which made Pacino comfortable.

Plus it was in this setting, which made pacino comfortable plus it was in this setting which made it comfortable and i was kind of i didn't know how i was gonna go and he not positive he knew what was going on with podcasts like how they even work what radio station what is this where is this going live uh but about 25 minutes in he once we started talking about acting and stuff he got super comfortable and it was like, it went to that realm of, so in 1972 and I was like, oh my God, it was, it was just the best. He told Brando stories, John Cazale, all that stuff. Yeah.

You can't imagine people should watch that doc. I'm sure you told people to watch that John Cazale documentary, you know, on the five. There's a great documentary on John Cazale. I don't know if I said that in the thing. Yeah. That's unbelievable. And it's because it shows the five movies he made the robert horry of it's unbelievable yeah just the five perfect movies and he's in them and he was the best actress of all time

yes like that put to push it over the top i mean you can see yeah in deer hunter but he did make those five movies and it's like um a truly incredible a truly incredible run is the five movies but then he's like in some short and it ruins this imdb thing it's like they should just take the short out or put it lower can we just have these five in a row it's just the five but yeah when dave and i got to work with that guy i mean obviously godfather's what like the first movie that mattered to us the movie i've watched more than any other for sure yeah godfather two second probably in the movies i've watched more than any other though i think it's the better

of the two agree and um when we when he showed up on the set of oceans 13 and a movie that dave and i wrote and we were on set every day yeah it took a couple i mean you know you get these gut it just took a minute to like keep our feet under us because it's a huge shot to the face that, oh my God, that's Al Pacino. Can I stay in the game? Can I talk to him when he's like, I have a question about this speech? Yeah. You just want to go, whatever you think, Mr. Pacino. Right. You know, but then what you have- And he sounds exactly like Al Pacino because he's Al Pacino. So every word that comes out, hey, can I get a grilled cheese?

But it's Al Pacino saying it. He's really Al Pacino. Yeah. And it was, and he was so game. You know, some older actors are phoning it in. He loves acting. I'm sure he talked about this with you. That was what, I feel like I could have gone four hours with him now that he's comfortable.

Because he really loves acting. Like he talked about Broadway, all that stuff. When you're with him working though, right? so you got to spend the time talking to him i mean i literally got to spend time on a set working on the character with him and we're doing takes and he would come walking over to dave and me like was that how you guys heard it like and and it was amazing but then he would sometimes say to steven soderbergh who directed that movie he would go uh can i do another just for fun and he wanted just another take just to try some experiment just a weird idea that occurred

to him and steven would always say right go yeah of course do another for fun do two do two more for fun and you just saw a guy the rest of life is kind of complicated for him the kids the ex he's got young kids he mentioned a bunch of young kids but when you between cut and action is when it's not action and cut is when it's not complicated for him yeah that's when he's fully alive and connected and watching it was like super inspiring to us watching him one like watching the work watching him craft the character, but more than that, it was like, look at this artist, like still completely engaged in the thing he's doing at 70 years old. Yeah.

It's amazing to watch. And I didn't see Paterno, but- I actually think he might, I think he's gonna get nominated for it. I actually, I think he might win. Sorry, it's Dan Soder who plays Mafion Billions. All right, hold on. I gotta ask him what the mailman-

Pause it. I gotta ask him. No, just do it on the air. Hey, Soder, you're on Bill Simmons' podcast right now. Say hi to Bill. Hi, Bill. What's up, Dan? Dude, what was your letter?

What was your letter? Oh, when I got in the mailbag? Yeah. I asked Bill if Britney Spears was the Mike Tyson of pop because she rose to power at 17 and then 18 and then I compared Kevin Federline to Buster Douglas and the Rape Charge.

Oh jeez. I think I remember that. So that's Dan Sutter who plays Maffei on Billions. It was a great stand up. And made the mailbag. And made the mailbag. How old were you when you made the mailbag? I was 21 and it was the biggest credit in my life wow it should be in your imdb yeah how come it's not on your imdb as

yourself uh well it was actually just the front of my website for so long that i had to pull it down that's how people only knew me all right listen soda i'm trying to get you on i'm doing the best i can now you've had uh had two words on the podcast tell him I can't wait for the Andre doc he heard you I mean dude he heard you right you know how cell phones work thank you

alright dude talk to you later bye Dan wow so he just had a mailbag email and now a podcast cameo yeah he's killing it yeah and he is the biggest wrestling fan you've ever met so what what character on billions gets mentioned to you the most there must be one other than other than axe and chuck are they the are they the ones that get mentioned the most yeah Yeah. It feels like there's a really underground Wags kind of momentum now.

Oh yeah. I know he's the favorite character of the Ringer staff and it's not close. Dave Costable is a genius of an, a true genius, the actor. And Dave and I went to college together and Levine and I kind of like crafted this character, like we made the character for him.

Yeah. And we changed the character a lot from the pilot to the second episode. But between the pilot and the second episode, we realized, okay, we're going to really give Costable like this ground to cover. And the best, he does end up, you know how it works when you're writing a show.

When you're writing a show, you just, when people deliver for you, you just throw them stuff. And we have this cast where everybody delivers. If you don't deliver, you, you just throw them stuff. And we have this cast where everybody delivers. If you don't deliver, you don't stay on a show. That's like the old David Chase thing. And it turns out it is true that- So it's like basketball.

You run plays for the guys and they make a three and you're like, ah, let's run another one. You do. You run plays for these people all the time. Look, everyone mentions Taylor now. And, and as you know, like the secret that Dave and I had in the first season of the show, Levine and I was that Wendy was going to win the first season of the show. Yeah. And that Wendy was in a way like the hero of the first season. So people always talk about Wendy and I will say men come up to me, men over 40 and one very famous NBA player all basically come up to me men over 40 and one very famous nba player all basically come up to me and are like can you um introduce me to that woman who plays oh really i'm like she's like a person like

a an actor and she's playing this role and married and um they're like dude every dude over 40 comes out to me i'm in love with that Wendy person. And you understand it because Maggie Siff's eyes are so smart. She's just so smart, such a brilliant actor. And then everyone mentions Taylor because they haven't seen that character on television before. And Asia Kate Dillon is so incredibly powerful and smart. But Bobby Axelrod is the iconic,

Bobby Axelrod, because again, that exact guy, Damian Lewis in that role, representing this aspirational idea in the twisted way he does, meaning people find him aspirational. Bobby Axelrod was never, in our minds, neither Bobby nor Chuck are heroic characters to us, though we love them both. Yeah, but it's the same way like with Wall Street and Michael Douglas, where he's a villain, but you're rooting for him the whole movie. It is funny how that works over and over again. I was watching the Gianni Versace eight-episode one,

and by the last episode, they're closing in on Cunanan, and you're like rooting for him it's like oh get out of the boat i'm like why am i rooting for this guy he's the worst guy ever run andy well my cops are coming my favorite show is the crown and like you know the queen is a villain but yeah but you root like hell for her i mean because of the idea of duty and she's hewing i think that is it like when someone can define what they want and you can understand the reason they want it you will root for them if you spend enough time with them because you will empathize with what they're going through true and the queen has

this idea about duty the the sort of useless obligation but that that if she somehow gives enough to this ideal it gives something back to the people. I mean, I think monarchies are obviously like useless and terrible devices, but in bad institutions. But you watch The Crown and Claire Foy is so great and you can't help but root for her, even as she's making the lives of the people around her miserable. Do you it i do not watch it my wife watches it i don't really like english people fair um the crown i mean not the crown uh um oh god i just blanked i just had an old guy moment

i want to now find people that you might like no that's great roger daltrey i can always have evan edit the old guy moments out. I don't think you should. Lean into it. I remember what I was going to ask you. What show were you the most jealous of? Because I know you're competitive. What show were you like, ah, fuck. Now? Yeah. On the air right now? On the air right now.

They're like, fuck. Well, no. The Crown. The Crown is perfect. I think it's a perfect piece of entertainment. And I watch it. I can't believe they get to make the episodes that look, it's so hard to do these shows. Yeah. And to gather the resources and every shot in that thing

is like incredibly composed. It's so different from what we're doing. I wouldn't want our show to look like that show, but I watch it and I'll stop at something. Amy and I, it's our show. We watch together because I'm nicer, I guess, to my wife than you are to show but I watch it and I'll stop at something Amy and I it's our show we watch together because I'm nicer I guess to my wife than you are to yours I just thought I wasn't interested and so I like yeah I enjoy spending time

we like spending time together watching a show I like watching TV with my wife I'm just not watching The Crown I'm not banging out 55 episodes of The Crown I did though I'm done with the second season but I will rewind it sometimes and I'll be like, look how they shot that dinner scene.

They were able, they must've spent, on a scene I'd get to spend half a day. They got to spend two days. They shoot, they have 22 day episodes. I have 11 day episodes or 12 day episodes.

So they're getting 10 more days to shoot their episodes than I am. And so they're able to cover things in ways that I just can't. And so there's a level of cinema to it that makes me like competitive. I would, I want to be able to do that. I don't feel that way about Game of Thrones because Game of Thrones needs those days. Like they're, they're staging these giant battle sequences. You can't even compare anything to that show.

They're there, but they're, they're staging stuff where they need those resources. The Crown, you could shoot The Crown any way you want. There's no one stabbing anybody on The Crown. Did you see Phantom Thread? No, not yet, because we were making the show. That's one of those meticulous movies where it's at a whole other level. I really liked it. I don't normally go over the moon for movies like that,

but that one, I was like, man, this is every single decision is so carefully made. I've been saving it to watch because he is among my 10 favorite filmmakers. So when you ask about being jealous or competitive or something, the fact that he did your podcast and you're going to spend two hours asking him questions.

That was one of my favorite ones from last year. And he walked in and he saw the Fast Break poster and he was immediately comfortable. He knew he was with his people. He was like, hey, Gabe Kaplan. I was like, oh, this is going to be a good one. He recognized Gabe Kaplan. We're good. But he's like us.

He's like a child from the same generation and grew up watching the same things. I follow this Twitter feed called Retro News. I think it's called something like that. And they'll just pop up these old TV guides and they'll be like, Charlie's angels came out 42 years later today and they'll have the pilot. And I'm like, that was a really important moment. Charlie's angels. I kind of remember where I was like being like, Oh, someday I'll watch Charlie's angels. I was like six or seven. Episode two this season, there might be- Charlie's Angels? There might be a Farrah Fawcett reference.

Oh. Episode two of Billions. We might give a little nod to that exact moment in time. It's possible. In episode two. I think I've told this story before, but I think the Hawaii episode was the first time I ever got a boner, like time I ever got a boner. Right, sure.

Like a really driven by content boner. I was like, oh, what's going on? I was like seven, eight. I was like, what's that? What's Cheryl Ad? They can show her butt. But yeah, it was back then. Driven by content boner, I think, should be the name of your 90s cover band.

Like when you do the band that covers Jimmy Orle and all that stuff. I guess early 2000s. That should be the name of the cover band. Like when you do the band that covers Jimmy Orl and all that stuff. I guess early 2000s. That should be the name of the cover band. It's definitely one of the worst porn searches you could ever do. Driven by content boners. Let's take a break to talk about the hit Showtime series,

Billions. Are you really reading the Billions? Yeah, we're doing a read. Instead of changing it, I sent the copy. I just kept the copy. I thought you could enjoy it. Knock it out. There's a fierce rivalry between hedge fund CEO Bobby Axelrod and U.S. attorney Chuck Rhodes. It's more cutthroat than ever.

Fortunes, families, and legacies be damned. They will cross every line to take each other down. And as the stakes rise, who can they trust? How far will they go to save themselves? Don't miss season three of Billions. The show Entertainment Weekly calls, quote, devilish fun, unquote, with new episodes Sunday at 10, 9 central, only on Showtime. How are we doing so far with this? Well, what's really weird is I know the answer

to every one of those questions. Yeah, okay. You know what I mean? How far will they go? I know. You might not know the answer to this question. My listeners can get an extended 30-day free trial of Showtime to catch up on the first two seasons

of Billions by entering code BS at getshowtime.com. Offer expires April 15th. GetShowTime.com. What's cool about Showtime and HBO and all the prestige channels now is they're also available on Amazon and Hulu. I know a lot of my staffers, they watch Showtime because it's on Amazon.

Or Hulu, whatever it is on amazon it's like it's a part of whatever whatever it is um and there's showtime anytime you can be a cord cutter and watch by just subscribing to like the show anytime i have a lot of people that work for us under 30 that do not have cable or satellite like i i would say my son is friends 50 to 60%. My kids, my 18 year old, 22 year olds, they watch it all. Oh, in fact, my daughter, hey, Anna, my daughter will say to me, dad, I would watch Showtime. I would watch Billions. I really want to catch up because she has a couple episodes from last season she didn't watch, but I'd have to turn on.

She was away for a semester program in the, like on a farm. That's her dad. Yeah. Is this what happens when you have a daughter who passes 12? Yeah. said anna are you you're not gonna catch up and she said if it was on the computer then i would but i have to turn on the television and i said your dad makes television shows like right you do know that right yeah she said yeah but if it was on you know if i could just watch it on the computer so then i download of course being a sucker and a father and then like well here's the flash drive and i you know download it all father. And then I'm like, well, here's the flash drive. And I download it all, including some.

And then I'm like, have you watched? And she's like, I'll get to it. I'll get to it. I already see the signs now. She's the greatest thing in the world, my daughter. But she really knows how to make me work for it. Well, it does seem like, and I'm feeling it now because my daughter turns 13 in like five weeks. But I am starting to feel it now it's

basically like a what have you done for me lately situation i was their hero up until like age 10 and a half you still are no not really it's like hey dad uh hey can i have some money hey you coming to my thing tonight hey you're driving me to practice well sure but that's and then the token how was your day and it's like yeah the how was your day token we talk about it too so like the i mean we don't have to take the podcast into uh being dad turning the parent corner we don't have to do that but i walk like basically every day i can't i walk her to school because school's close by because we live in manhattan and uh somewhere along the way she will turn and from when she was 11 we've joked about it and she'll say so what are you doing today?

Yeah. And it's just pro forma. Yeah, they don't care. But I appreciate, you know what though? I fucking appreciate the effort. Yeah. I really do.

But how much worse would it be if she didn't say, how was your day? It's great. All right. Anyway. Billions kids? Yeah.

Do you use them as proxies for anything going on with your parenting? I mean, the show, everything in your subconscious always goes, but's funny people will constantly we'll do an episode where you see chuck's kids you literally see chuck but have a catch with the kid and someone will be like why that in the recap of that show they'll be like how come we never see the roads as kids i want to be like he had a catch in this episode yeah with his son like you can rewind

and they're like no that kid wasn't in the episode. By the way, what do people want from TV kids? It usually always is terrible and goes wrong. It's like the less the better. I think AJ Soprano is probably the number one example of this. But Meadow, I always, I didn't. Meadow was solid. Meadow storylines.

You need to be a really good actor, I think, to pull off some of the storylines. Jamie Lynn Sigler was the real deal. Yeah, she was good on that show. Like, you know, that episode when she dates the guy at college and he brings him home. My favorite kid show where they actually nailed the actors was Party of Five. Well, we're leaving, sure, the Salinger family, but we're leaving out- Salinger family, all of them could act. All of them had their moments.

We're leaving out the most important one of the last, whatever. Obviously, it's Don Draper's daughter that's the most important she's an incredibly good actor I'll give you that last two seasons you know that the brothers were the worst

but I do think that she and the relationship that he had that was great but I think the problem she and the relationship that he had, that was great. If you're going to, but I think the problem is he has to be really careful. You either have to decide, I'm going to make part of the show really about the guy as a father. And on our show, we are interested in this kind of total obsession that these people have for their work. Yeah. We are interested in how that ramifies toward their family lives,

but we don't think you need to see a lot of interaction. I mean, you will see stuff with the Axelrod kids this year because as last season ended, you know, Ax and Lara were in a very, they were in a tight spot. And so that has to play out.

Yeah. And it does play out this season. And so that does have to affect the kids in some way. But we can't change the nature of the show. We're not interested in changing the nature of the show. The show is about these grown-up people and their obsessions. Is it fair to say that season two, the show figured out what it was? Because I always feel like season two is the crucial,

for the arc of whatever a show is going to be. You can bang out the season one, but you don't totally know what the show is yet. And then season two, it could go either. We figured it out. I know the moments, like the inflection points. Episode four of season one, when we started and ended it with that Andrew Bird song

about sociopaths, we figured out, okay, this is the tone, the way we're going to use music in the show. And then by the end, the sort of second half of the first season, we figured out the rhythm of the thing. And then, yeah, when we then started season two, we were like, we understand the show we're making and how to do it for sure. But it goes in stages. The first three episodes are the weakest and they were of the first season because they're us all together figuring out the voice, the tone, which is the thing that you're really talking about, which is like the shows that work have within their world, they have this like unified voice, unified tone. That's something that the shows we like, loved our whole lives had.

NYPD Blue. Yeah. Had a voice the way those characters would say, yeah, huh? Or something like Dixipowitz and John Kelly. I fucking miss John Kelly. Me too, dude. I was so mad when he left. What did we get?

We got 25 episodes, 23 episodes. That's the maddest I've ever been an actor for blowing whatever. Me too. Still mad at him. I agree. But if I met him, I would love him. I remember I was, I was hanging out. I was living in Boston and that show the first year.

And I would go over and watch it with my dad. And my dad was like, he had just become superintendent. And he was just like, it was so overwhelming for him and he loved nypd because he was like you know come home and i just know john kelly's gonna have a worse day than i did that's awesome that was like his guy i was like at least that guy is worse can you name all four john kelly's no, there was Smits. Yeah, Smits. Ricky Schroeder. Bobby Simone was the real deal. Mark Paul Gosselaar. You did it. Well done. I was, I was,

I gotta be honest, I was never the same with that show after Caruso left. Oh no, that's good with Bobby Simone. It really is. I know it was, but I just was never, never had the same luster for it. It was, at the beginning I was like not sure. And then I would say that show was one of the great shows that doesn't get talked about enough. It's one of the-

100%. Changed television completely. 100%. David Milch is arguably the best television writer of all time. You know, if you think about that, he did NYPD Blue and Deadwood and was a huge voice on Hill Street Blues. I mean, if you put those things together, it's really incredible. I think the first five episodes, maybe five or six of that show were really important in the and just tv history of what's going on and how it pushed the envelope and also like

that's that that i rarely go back and re-watch shows but i re-watched some of the nypd blues a couple years ago and those first like five or six was schwimmer is 4b and yeah it is like coming down those steps and saying like grab you know grabbing his dick at sharon lawrence and all that stuff yeah um the way that milch was not going to give you heroic cops and yes there have been there have been cops who were like uh compromised before that or cops on tv who might do the wrong thing but these people were truly like human and fucked up people trying to be good cops. So they weren't like cops on the take, but they were like really deeply fucked human beings who knew they had to be better than themselves.

Not really the case until 93, right? Well, I don't think we'd had a show like that. I mean, like I guess on Hill Street, there were moments where they were compromised or weird. They were strange, but they weren't fucked up psychologically the way they were on NYPD. In the 80s, it's like, there was a Who Shot JR anniversary

and somebody posted a clip. It was a couple of days ago. It was like the 45 year anniversary of Who Shot JR or whenever it was. And I was like, oh, I got to watch that again. It is so dated. Yeah, I'm sure. It's like cable access.

You can't even believe how. But the hag was good, right? Oh, it's all fine. It's just incredibly dated. Even, I think Cheers has probably held up the best of any 80s show. And even that one's really dated. But I think the first three seasons of Cheers are still watchable. The second season of Wiseguy is pretty amazing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you had Kevin Spacey and Joan Severance and Ken Wall. And like that show, that show was very modern. I remember Jonathan Banks, who everyone loves from the, what's the show? He was on Breaking Bad. Breaking Bad. Yeah, Jonathan Banks. That set up, I think the first four episodes of Miami Vice,

removing the one with Charlielie barnett but like uh the pilot and then there's one more and then the two park how to run revenge and then those were so good season two when pendulet was the villain that was that's a great episode and then when crockett got amnesia was good like they have ones that have held up but for the most part 80s tv is it just feels really dated now and tv is. And it's also shot on the square screen versus the wide. Yeah, the impact of, like, I would say, it's interesting or compelling to look at it because of where it led.

Like, do you have the West Wing if you don't have LA Law first? Like, LA Law is dated and maybe it is goofy, but it kind of like the way that that office worked, kind of like there is this progression that led to West Wing, which for me is as good as. I have a hot take on LA law. Go.

I think it was lucky when it was lucky time. No, it's just like not a lot of law shows when that show came out. And they kind of, I think medical shows, law shows and police shows are always going to work. And whatever the best one is at the time is going to feel better than it is sometimes. Now the catch is like when ER starts

and there had been a little bit of, nobody had really known what, yeah, I mean, we'd had medical shows, but we hadn't had like a great one in a while. And then first season of ER, I was like, holy shit. And I think that was a great show. That was also right place, right time. And I look at LA Law and it's like, good show,

but right place, right time. And then Chicago Hope was like the Nick Bockwinkle of its time. Oh, Chicago, yeah, it was the new walk. No, Nick Bockwinkle, because like you had Harley Race and Bruno were the other two champions. And then Nick Bockwinkle was the champ of the AWA, right? Yeah. And they had a lot of good people on that show.

Nobody cared. Which show? Chicago Hope. Yeah, great show. Peter Berg. Maynard Tankin. And then that Peter what's his name? Yeah, that was a really good show, by the way.

I think the last- Unlucky. That show was on, if people don't know. Chicago Hope, which had all these great people and huge pedigree around it premiered the same night they went head to head er yeah they were like hey we're ready for a medical drama again and two networks were like let's go and it just was like uh it wasn't tyson douglas but it was that's why i went pro wrestling that's why i went tyson douglas is the wrong move yeah pro wrestling is probably better yeah it was pro wrestling it was like the champ

yeah no but it was like this other that show was really good Chicago Hope and it had a good run and everything yeah like well now there's so much TV it doesn't matter yeah you're right now there's so much TV it doesn't matter I heard that I don't know if this exact number is true but I heard that right now

somebody in the industry told me this. There are 560 television shows. 560 that are in development. And it's like a real crisis with how do we find a showrunner? Oh, this guy has this idea. Well, we need somebody to run it. How do we? Well, our first 50 choices are already on shows.

Well, this person was a key grip on season two billions. Let's make him the showrunner. And like, it's like a crisis right now. Let me say that George Patsos, who is our key grip, would do an amazing, he's like that guy. So George Patsos. If someone wants, Patsos has been around for a long time. He's an amazing key grip.

Just so you know, you mentioned key grip. I'm going to shout my guy out. They never, these guys don't get shouted out enough. There's never been a better time for you and Levine to just completely whore yourself out with a second show. You'd be like, no, no, we can juggle both of them. And you could just completely mail in the worst thing ever and get overpaid for it. The problem is-

You should do that. Do like some wrestling drama from the 90s and just take the money. The problem, thank you. Take one hit. Ah, that show sucked. All right, next one next one doing a shitty thing you feel so bad i mean you know how i felt about runner runner you make something and it just comes out badly you just feel awful you never told me the runner runner story though because that because that's a movie that on paper should have worked right i was like oh this sounds cool what was it offshore but you should know. You told me not to watch it,

so I didn't watch it. I was going to say, I never, the tip off it wasn't going to be good was when I was like, nah, dude, don't bother. It was like when my wife was going to have her first kid and my friend told me, he was like, whatever you do, don't go past her arms. Stay near where her head is.

Stay above. Don't go past her arms. I was like, okay. And I just listened. And it was the same thing with Runner Runner. You were like, don't watch this. It was just a combination

of the wrong, like the movie was, the director's vision for the movie was so different. Wesley Morris wrote a review for you that I thought was astute where he seemed to understand what the movie could have been. The director just

had a different vision than we did. And the problem was both of us were tugging on the rope. So yeah, if the director would have gone off and made it, maybe he would have made a good movie, but it wouldn't have been anything like the movie we wanted. And so the thing just came in, it just was in between. The best way I can describe it is we, the guy was supposed to dress the way I'm dressed now. And like a guy was supposed to dress the way I'm dressed now in like a hoodie. He was supposed to work in Costa Rica at an, you know, an online betting place offshore where you're basically in a sweatshirt, you're at your computer, you're there because you're

a little bit scummy and you're, something's not right about you is why you had to like become an expat and leave home. And it was supposed to be with this guy kind of like finding himself through coming up against a guy who had bad intentions. But the moment they cast Justin, who I like and who worked really hard on the movie, but the moment they cast Justin, everyone started talking about the suits he was going to wear. And Dave and I were like, no, no, no, no, no. If you wear suits, the thing's going to seem fake. And they're like, and then once you make the suit decision, every decision that follows has to be like that

decision right and so each thing kills the movie yeah each thing it's like but it goes so far away from the thing that you wanted it to be and then they still have to do our script which was written to be this other thing and it was just one of those times where the elements just didn't add up and why don't you just redo the whole thing as like a netflix series or something i wish i could It was just one of those times where the elements just didn't add up. And- Why don't you just redo the whole thing as like a Netflix series or something? I wish I could just never think about it again. But also I look at those guys like David Chase made one show when he was making The Sopranos and Matt Weiner made one show when he was making Mad Men.

That doesn't mean that tomorrow, if David and I can announce another show, but the truth of it is there is something about your subconscious mind only working on the world that you've created and you're trying to make. I'm living all day long somewhere with Axe and Chuck and Taylor and Wendy and Wags. And that means if I'm reading a book about the masters, you and I are both going to be at the masters at the same time because I'm covering it for SI, which is lifelong dream kind of a thing. I was reading a book about the masters and talking about, you know, the guy Cliff Roberts who built the thing with, I think that's his name, Cliff's, I don't want to get it wrong, but the guy who built it with Bobby Jones. And they mentioned some banker from the early part of the 1900s. And the way they referenced this banker, I'm just reading this thing about the masters. And I'm like, oh, that's fascinating.

Right. I'm writing it down, sending an email to myself because I know that's something that'll be referenced in the next season of the show. Because I'm swirling and living in my imagination. Some part of it is constantly working on billions. And so whether I'm not saying billions is a show in the league of Mad Men and Sopranos, but for me, it's the, for Dave and me, it's our shot to do something that matters to people. We have this audience that really, the people who love our show love it in the way that I loved Mad Men and the Sopranos.

They love it that way. And then you have a whole other group of people who like it and just enjoy watching it. Yeah. And they're not immersed in it, but they're like, oh, I like that show. I'll watch it. That's great. You like those people. For all the people watching the show make me happy.

And the people tweet like, yes, please watch the show. You don't have to watch it obsessively. Just watch it. Yes, it doesn't annoy me. Sometimes someone will be like, a lot of the time, someone will tweet at me trying to take a shot at both shows. Hey, your show's like a smart suits. And like, as though they think that's going to insult both the guy who runs suits and

me. Meanwhile, suits is fucking perfect for what it is. Like that show on USA, that guy is so smart in the way he makes that show and like if you want to watch our show because you think it's in your mind the smart suits like smart suits is very smart i'm like that's fine whatever however you want to find it but what dave and i have to do for the people who watch it the way that we would watch it is like try to make it as real and fun and filled with everything that we're thinking about, everything that we're feeling about the world. And I don't know how to split my focus. I'm not smart enough to split my focus and make something else at the same time. I, you know, certainly make

another show. Making a show takes just a lot out of you or out of me anyway. I'm working at the top of my capacity, which maybe says more about my capacity than the job, but that's just the truth of it. I identify with that because I think writing a column is like that. If you're really all the way, if it's the only thing you're doing, you're driving around or writing a book or anything where you're at a stoplight thinking about it. And if you're at a stoplight thinking about 19 other things, because this is happening and that's happening and you're worried about that, and that's when you're in trouble. I think about this a lot because David Benioff, who along with D.B. Weiss makes Game of Thrones, I think David Benioff might be among like the five best living American novelists. Yeah.

And he's not writing novels. Right. It kills me that that guy is like deprived. And he gets annoyed with me. We're friends for a long time, but he gets annoyed with me when I say it to him because he's like, well, I'm pretty involved in this, you know, this biggest show of all time. Yeah. But I'm thinking like, God, I wish that, I mean,

if people haven't read City, even if you don't read books, if you read one book this year, read City of Thieves. I recommend the book. Every person I've ever known who's read the book is like thanked me for it. Tim Ferriss the other day made it his Friday book of the whatever, because, and he said, I told him to read it. He's like, I can't believe how amazing this book is. And, but obviously Benioff can't split the focus either. He has to make a show and then maybe he'll make, write another novel or he would have to only write these novels. Cause I'm sure writing City of Thieves took everything he had.

Was he the one who wrote 25th Hour? Yeah. Yeah. That's his novel. My favorite Spike Lee movie? Yeah. He wrote that novel and the screenplay. And then he wrote the novel City of Thieves. That movie's fucking awesome. Yeah. It's a novel. My favorite Spike Lee movie? Yeah. He wrote that novel and the screenplay. And then he wrote the novel City of Thieves.

That movie's fucking awesome. Yeah. It's a great movie. No, full stop. I got to say, the Ed Norton run from like Primal Fear all the way through 25th Hours is legitimately and wildly underrated. You know the story. I know you love Ed Norton.

Do you know the first time that I'm, I mean, do you know what he did the first time we met him, Dave and I? I might've said this to you in a mailbag when we did like a, what'd you call those things? Genius. Oh, we did. It was pre-podcast. What are those things called? We, it was curious guy.

Curious guy. I would email back and forth with people and it was kind of what I want to do with a podcast that I didn't know existed yet. Yeah. So we did this before we did 15,000 words between us. We went on for like two weeks. We did, forever. And it's on, it's somewhere in the ESPN archives.

Yeah, you can go find it. Simmons talking to Dave and me. But so we're about to get greenlit on, or we're greenlit on Rounders, Matt's cast. We're going to make the movie. Somehow we get it to Edward and he, we don't know him, likes the script, but he wants to go to a, he wants to meet the guys who wrote it and go to a poker casino with them to see how real all this is.

So Dave and I fly out to LA from New York and we go to his house. Now, all we know him from is Primal Fear and the Larry Flint movie, which he's incredible. And he was really good in that. At that time, he's like the best actor. And he'd done the Woody Allen movie. Everyone says, I love you. That's actually an excellent movie that's just gone. Nobody even had a conversation about it in 10 years.

Yes. People versus Larry Flint. It's excellent. Milos Forman, one of the greatest directors ever. Made Amadeus, for fuck's sake. So we go to meet Edward. He invites us over to his house and we walk in. Now, we don't know him. All we know him is from those movies, from Primal Fear, the Larry Flint movie. We walk in his house and he's like, hey guys, I'm just watching a clip. I'm editing this movie I'm making right now. And do you mind just watching with me so we can see if it works, the sequence I've just put together. And he walks us, his house is mostly empty, but he had this big TV in the corner.

And he pushes play, and I guess his DVD that they'd sent him from the editing room. And it's the curb bite scene in American History. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, walk in and he's showing. So literally we'd said four words to him. Hey, man, nice to meet you. Five words. And we were watching the thing and he plays it up through the whole beginning of the movie.

So he's having sex. That Stormtrooper, that music is playing. He goes out on the street up through when he turns around with his hands above his head and he's got the guns, you know, he kills the guy and his hands are up and he's got huge muscles. And Dave and i are just speech i mean you can imagine seeing that just in a guy the dude's staring at him and i'm looking at the screen and i'm staring at him and he shuts it off he's like what do you think

you know uh i think it's really good man that's unbelievable what the fuck you know she had this movie american history x well let's go play cards and i mean i couldn't talk for like a half hour in the car on the way there because i was like that's the most disturbing thing i've ever seen in my life that's right the worst i mean it's one of the worst things a movie star has ever done on a screen yeah a guy who became a movie star to do that thing on a screen and it was just to me and levine and him in his house watching it and when we said like that perform we were like how are you by the end of the night, it was clear like, you know, he's a brilliant, amazing, well-read,

he's a guy. And that character, I guess, was an intellectual, you know, the whole story of American History Access. Obviously the guy changes. That movie is excellent. Worth seeing, for sure. Like, it's another... It adds some flaws, and I know they changed directors at one point, and I'm

sure there's five things they would do differently now. But it's worth seeing. It's just a really unique movie. I don't think there's another movie like that. I wish he had shown you the basketball scene, though, because I've had an issue with that for 20 years. He finishes the pickup game with the two-hand dunk reverse in traffic. He's like 5'10". Come on.

I think he really dunked. I'm going to say he really dunked the on. I think he really dunked. I'm going to say he really dunked the ball. I think he really dunked it. I think it was a seven foot rim. The actors will surprise you though. Like I played one on one. They're not surprising me with a reverse two hand dunk in traffic. I played one on one against Woody Harrelson once.

Woody Harrelson's really good at basketball. I heard. Him and Duchovny are apparently the two. Well, Duchovny played college. Little Clooney too. I've played a lot with Clooney basketball. He's a really great athlete. Bad back nowoney basketball. He's a really great athlete. Bad back now though.

But he's a really good athlete. Yeah. No joke, real good. No, Duchovny is a, played for Princeton. He played for Pete Carill. He tried out for the Billy Hoyle part. He did? Yeah.

He didn't get it. He's a real bad. Still bitter about it. Hates Woody Harrelson. We're going to take a break to talk about the all new BMW X3, which was not built for everyone. Engineered for those who share the desire of more. More passion, more ambition, more making every second count.

The new BMW X3. Plain capable of doing more. And when I think about people who have more passion, more ambition, and more class than the competition, I think about Bobby Axelrod. No, actually, not the class part. Striving to be the best, doing whatever it takes to stand out,

throwing everything you have into your work. Is that BMW or Bobby? We're doing a BMW ad right now? Yeah. That's BMW. Okay, you're right. The BMW X3 is capable of more with the level of performance you expect from a BMW.

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It can't happen without you and Levine. You understand the opening you just gave me, right? It has to be with us. And that's why we're also announcing within the next six months, you're going to be with us. And that's why we're also announcing within the next six months you're going to do my podcast. Within the next 12 to 15 months I'll do it. Okay, done.

That's it. Stated. You and Levine are the gatekeepers for the Rounders 20th anniversary of our history. It's going to be on the ringer. We want to do it. Everyone's asking. Damon might move to New Zealand or Australia or something. I don't know. It'll be hard to get him. That's the greatest. And I think we need know. It'll be hard to get him. Who knows? That's the greatest.

And I think would participate with all of us. We need to get Matt. We need to get Ed Norton. And well, you know it's been announced that Malkovich is in this season of Billions. Yeah, I want to talk about that. Playing a Russian billionaire. Okay. You want to ask me about it?

Well, I think you know your audience at this point. You know your audience loves Malkovich and Rounders. You're basically bringing that character back. You're bringing Teddy KGB back, but not really, but kind of sort of. It's not Teddy KGB. It's a Russian billionaire. That's what I mean. It's just John Malkovich with a Russian accent. If I know- Playing a powerful person that the people in the world of the show have to respect and grapple with. Might he say the word satisfied during the world of the show have to um respect and grapple with might he say the word satisfied during the course of the of the season might he say the word aggressive it's

possible might he have possible might he have an oreo at one of the 12 episodes no that would see that would be pushing it oreo would be pushing it poke one poker no no no he's really playing a totally different thing one fucking oreo it was an amazing thing, man, that the guy, and you know, we can do like, after he's been on the show, you and Levine could talk or something. We could like talk about it. But I will say, I texted him.

We had this idea for this character and people were giving us lists of people who could play the character. The character came before John in it. The way we researched the show is we spend a lot of time with these hedge fund billionaires now. Yeah.

And they tell us everything. If we don't, as long as we don't reveal who said what. There are certain guys who will allow us to. One of those guys is Mark Lazzari, who owns the Bucks. Yeah. We talk to him, Mark, all the time. He's very available to play in celebrity basketball games too.

I beat him at horse, which really bothered him. He insists on bringing up the ball. He's a very good basketball player. I think he's older than both of us. He's a couple years older than me. Hey, maybe don't bring up the ball anymore. Lasry's a very good basketball player. Lasry, at some point, all of us become a stretch four.

And that's just the way it goes. I hit my point at age 43. All of a sudden, I was a stretch four. I'm like, all right, I'm a stretch four. I'm Mark Madsen. Yes, I accepted becoming a three at a age 43. Yeah. All of a sudden I was a stretch four. I'm like, all right, I'm a stretch four. I'm Mark Madsen. I'm a three. Yes, I accepted becoming a three at a certain point. Yeah.

That's fine. But you're really a stretch four. I believe you. You might've felt like you were a three, but- I wasn't a three. Everyone becomes a stretch four. It just doesn't matter. You can be five foot two and you're a stretch four when you pass 45.

I can play with my back to the basket a little bit. So we had this idea for the character and then Dave and I were talking and we were like, you know, if John would do it, it would have all the extra resonancies that you're like alluding to, but that wasn't the thing. It was like, if John would play this character, this very wealthy man from Russia,

it would just elevate the thing because he's one of the greatest living actors. He's brilliant person. And I wrote him and described the character. And I said, if you'd be game, and he instantly wrote back, like, I'm a hundred percent game. Let's figure out how to do it. And he came- He's like very aggressive. And it's possible that he will say the word aggressive during the course of the season. Hey, I know you'll take care of me. i know you'll take care of my rounders needs possible that word is said but but the character we had heard from some of these hedge fund people about dealings they had with a couple of russian billionaires and the way they talked about it made us realize a story arc possibility. And then it was like, well, that's how you build it, right? You do all this research.

So we're also talking to U.S. attorney people all the time. And we're talking to people who used to be in the U.S. attorney's office. And you're asking about like situations they've faced. And from that, you're going to build these fictional characters. And a bunch of people start talking about the kind of influence that Russian money can have. Not Russian money like the government's talking about, but the kind of influence when someone who has billions of dollars might invest with you. How it's different if it's Russian. So that story shows up later in the season. Without giving too much away,

does Bobby Axelrod like this character? They, Bobby Axelrod has scenes with the character for sure. Okay. I don't want to spoil it, but you're going to, I mean, I will say this, you will really enjoy the thing with that. Of course I will. One of the things I like about you guys is you become fascinated by little pockets of

whatever, and then you go all in. You're like, call girls. What's going on here? And then you end up creating a show about a call girl. Yes. When we made the movie, not the show. But yes, the girlfriend experience. That inspired the-

Exactly right. Yeah. Well, yeah, like you do though. I think it's not dissimilar to your obsessions. I mean, I'm sitting in your office, you got Bird, right? That's been your obsession that led to all this for a very long time. Some people have pictures of God. I have Larry Bird.

Yeah. Social media has been good for the basketball Jesus. Why? Because those little, now that the little videos and the GIFs and like the little highlight things, him and Magic, it's been especially good for them because it'll now that the little videos and the gifts and like the little highlight things him and magic it's been especially good for them because it'll be like the little four minute if you're gonna update the basketball book what would be your top five i would have so many different things what's your top five just top five players i think lebron moved into the top five unfortunately of course he did 100 he did he did it'd be It'd be ridiculous to say he didn't. Bird got bumped. Bird six now?

Yeah. It hurts. I think that's fair though. Because magic was a hair above bird, which also hurt when I did it, but I knew the book had to be accurate. And so right now I think it's Jordan, Russell, LeBron, Kareem. Kareem, magic. Magic.

Yeah. But somebody's going to pass Magic because these guys are all going 15, 20 years now. And at some point, the totality of the career, like I was watching LeBron, we're taping this on Thursday, LeBron last night against Toronto does not have a great team, LeBron.

He puts up the 35 and 17 with no turnovers. And basically in the last six minutes, every time he wanted to go to the rim, he could. You could argue offensively, this is the best he's ever looked at his entire career, which makes no sense. But, you know, Kareem was pretty similar, right? He was, Kareem was, had spent four years in college

and then had his first 11 years were as great as anybody and then even the 85 finals he's still the go-to guy like some guys are just super human i mean he got kareem got the amazing thing of then having magic for the end of his career right but he still had he doesn't kareem had the sky hook and height and lebron has just this fanatical ability to improve his body and to his endurance and all the stuff he does. He's also incredibly smart. Like LeBron is incredibly smart. He's gaining intelligence.

And he's got a little MJ side to him now too, where like last night, Purtle tried to stop him and they got switched and he goes by Purtle and then dunks on him and LeBron's running back. He's like, get his ass out of here. It's like, it was a little MJ-ish. Yeah.

Which I don't think is the side he's had until the last couple of years. Well, I liked a little bit of the killer in LeBron. You know, when you're a Knicks fan, you have to find other things to root for. And so we root for LeBron. And always have. I like KD too. And I like Golden State. But I root for LeBron.

And I think you can make the argument that LeBron is like in the three or four spot of all time. Yeah. I think he's three lowest. I do think it's like you can really make the argument. And at some point, if he's going to do this for two more years and it's 17 straight years of this. He gets to the two spot. He's never overtaking Jordan for guys like me. the two spot. He's never overtaking Jordan for guys like me. For me, he's

never overtaking Jordan. Yeah, that's how I feel too. But I think as this keeps going, you got to really start looking at Jordan having to leave in the prime of his career because he was burned out. But Jordan to guys like us is like Joe Lewis to the character

in the barbershop in Eddie Murphy's movie. And Joe Louis, guys are always bringing up Joe Louis. You're preaching in the choir. Yeah. But LeBron, every year, every year just comes back and he's playing his 90 to 100 games. And Jordan had to take a break

in the middle of his career. And that's like, at some point, that's going to be a conversation. We're not there yet. I think he's- We're not there yet. Look, a lot of people younger than us. How many people on your staff say you're ridiculous to think Jordan is better? Oh, half of my staff thinks Kobe was the first basketball player. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So when Kobe came in the league, that's when the NBA started. Yeah. Right. They believe that those are, so where's Kobe on their list?

In their minds is Kobe top five? Kobe is, advanced metrics have not been kind of Kobe. Now that, it's funny, like if I did the book again, which I would never do because I'm too old, the advanced metrics part of it would have been really kind of fun to figure out if, most of the times my calibration was right, but there's some guys from the past where you look at the stuff they were doing, like birds, all birds, advanced metrics

are actually kind of amazing, but nobody even knew. How are like Stockton's or something? Stockton's were good. I think, but there's guys like Mark Price and there's certain seasons that jump out that you can compare the context of now. Which I loved what you wrote about Tiny in the book. Yeah. Like would Tiny now stand up? High volume. Right. The high volume shooters don't do as well.

So like that, like people like Iverson are going to lose their impact. Because the idea of, oh, he's a scorer doesn't work in when you just look at the numbers. That would have been the justification for guys like that. You'd say, well, he was a scorer. Well, he had to do that. He had to, but it's, and like somebody like T-Mac, as the years go on, is going to actually raise in value because people are going to look at some of the seasons. They're like, wow.

Oh my God. But also on the eye test though. Eye test is. Tracy McGuigan, with T-Mac, I mean, he did the first ever in-game off the backboard. Oh yeah. Dunk, right? And will you ever forget seeing that? No, but I test, this is one

of the reasons I wrote the book when I did. I felt like I test this thing that fades away. And then you end up with 50 years from now, people telling me that Karl Malone was the greatest forward of all time. I was like, no, he wasn't. I was there. You did not want Karl Malone on your team in a game seven. He was one of the best.

Yeah, he's in the top 20. But there's going to, as the time passes, there's going to be this statistical case that builds like, you know who was the best forward? Carl Malone. It's like, no, stop, shut up. So that's, I worry about it. But even when he was playing, okay, you might have thought that.

But when he was playing, a lot of people thought he was the best power forward of all time. Like there were a lot of people who would say he was the best that they ever saw. Because remember when he was playing, we didn't know he wouldn't win the title. We thought he would win. We thought those two guys would win the championship. Like during the run, you expected those two guys to win the title. But this is, so now you're remembering this run. Okay.

So tell me. They kind of peak and get their asses kicked every year. And we all gave up on them. And then it was like Robinson, Elijah, Ewing, all this. Oh, it's centers now. And then the league gets diluted. And all of a sudden, this aging jazz team, just kind of by waiting everybody out and guys getting hurt and getting all of a sudden they rise up. But it was like a worse version of the team when they were in their primes.

Remember that? I do remember like the final sort of like packages that the people would show. I remember all the Carmelone truck stuff. Brian Russell is the third best player on this team. I remember then, like then during those games when they would show the Carmelone truck packages,

which they didn't show in the first run. So like at the end you would always see Car Malone with all the trucks at a thing. Yeah. But even then, people were talking about, with that comeback, those two guys being one of the greatest sort of combos. Oh, yeah. The league moved in their favor a little bit too,

because everything's- You know a hundred times more about this than I do. I'm just a basketball fan. No, no, I'm saying like- You're a real student of it. The league slowed down. Yes. And that really helped them. And now you think of of it the league slowed down and that really helped them

and now you now you think of like where the league is now it really helps certain guys you know like the league there's the position it's in right now is just unbelievable if you're james harden this is like the best version of the league he ever could have played in where it's it's it's this advanced level iso and just constantly switching the wrong guy on you and you're surrounded by shooters and he's like a Jedi and he can figure out what to do. Wait, when do you think that guy wouldn't have been amazing though?

I think he would have been somewhere between 70 to 90% of what he is now. Like at what period, like when in the league? When World B Free was considered a great, he's a hundred times, how much better is he than World B Free? Let's go back to your favorite, one of your favorite, the Riley Nicks. Yeah.

Think about the big guys that are just in the paint. Sure. There's six guys in there at all times, you know? And now that paint's open and they've spread it out. And it's just like, he's got this playing canvas. I think he's making those guys fall down and stepping back and hitting Jays over him. He's doing that too.

That's what I'm saying. I think that he's doing that. I'm saying if he was planning it, if Mace was, you know, I love Anthony Mason. I wrote his obituary for sports illustrated. Like I love Anthony Mason.

He did love Anthony Mason. I loved him, but he would have made Anthony Mason fall down. Anthony Mason would have knocked him into the basket. I agree. That when Harden went up, Mason would have made him not want to come into the lane again. Okay, that's a really good point.

Harden's 10 threes a game and 10 free throw attempts a game. Which is absurd. It makes no sense. And if I had told you 20 years ago somebody was going to do that, you would have been confused. So I flew here next to the stylist for this woman.

This woman is the stylist for Harden. Yeah. Andre Iguodala and- Andre Iguodala. And one other NBA great. I just can't remember. Oh, and Chris Bosh. Yeah.

And she was annoyed because when he came to the podcast, she wasn't annoyed, but he came to the podcast, that wasn't a pre-accredited checked out outfit that he was wearing. She picked all those pieces. Oh, and I did the Instagram photo. Your Instagram photo.

She picked those pieces, the jacket, but not that whole ensemble to be worn. Maybe exactly together. She thought he looked great, but she was like that combination. Well, it was just a podcast,

but she said that all the NBA guys will send her tears of Bobby Axelrod. They'll send her, she's like, I know everything about how your show looks, but I haven't watched it because these guys are constantly sending me Google, like images of acts in your show because they want to look like him. We should talk about this. Yeah. NBA players and rappers and hip hop artists absolutely love your show it is like their number one show it makes me so happy happy beyond words why does this show resonate with the wealthier black uh celebrity community so you know them better than i do those i don't know a lot of nba players i only know a couple of them yeah you tell me why i don't know i i i partially they, it's a rich guy show. There's not a lot of rich guy shows that

they would identify with. There's a power kind of mano a mano chess match thing to it that they like. KD. So we both know that KD loves the show. We talked about it on your podcast and in magazines. And he's told me. And I think these, yeah, these are young men who have a lot of power and influence. They come up against a monolith in the league or whatever else that's trying to curb their individuality. Yeah. in a way. There's a monolith trying to keep him down. Super competitive guy. He's competitive. He's got power. He's got influence of his own. And can he outsmart this sort of thing? I think really, for me, that's my guess at it. And

I think, yeah, you can relate to Axe because Axe isn't stuffy billionaire. He's not a billionaire like the way, like he's not Mr. Howell from Gilligan's Island. He's a guy who will wear Mr. Howell. You missed there. But he's not a stuffy kind of a billionaire. He is cool. And so that's my, my guess at it, but I love hearing that they're sending their stylist, um, tears of what Axe is wearing. I do think there should be more rich guy shows because NBA players also loved Entourage,

which the last few seasons tailed off, obviously, and they didn't care because they loved the private jet scenes and the nightclubs and the restaurants and the different, they're in Hawaii and they're in Kauai and they're in Malibu. Like they, they just identify with it. Cause that's at least a little bit of their life. I don't think our show is like Entourage, but I think Entourage gets a bad rap. I don't think your show is like Entourage either.

Yeah. But I think Entourage gets a bad rap. I'm saying it's a rich guy show. I know, but I'm just saying in general, I think that Doug Allen had voice and tone and that show. I agree with you. I think that he actually made a show that was like, didn't try to be anything other than it was. And he made a half hour that was like entertaining every week. I actually think season one is now underrated. Right.

First few seasons of that show. Season one is a really good season of TV. And in the moment, I probably underrated it because I remember I wrote about it for page two and I was writing about it from the frustration of this is a show. I didn't realize I always wanted, but I do. And I wish they had done this, this and this, which is,

I think I'm sure you get that a little bit with billions. People like, I'd never do. I always wanted this show, but I did. I want to know about, I want to go into this world of hedge fund people. We had no idea that people would respond to it.

You know, we just knew we were fascinated. You're, you're partly lying. No, I knew. Cause when you told me the idea for this show, you would like it.

No. When you told me the idea for the show, I was like, that's a home run. I didn't know that like, um, people who weren't like the NBA players you're describing would understand. I think we did a couple of things that made sense by making acts a poor kid who became this and making Chuck a rich man, a rich

guy who was, and you know, which is something that you flipped that one. That was a smart decision for giving kind of rooting interest in, in the ways that you do. So the guy was supposed to be the, the good guy is compromised in certain other ways meaning chalk but the traditional good guy we never ever thought of it in terms of good guy bad guy yeah man it freaks me out in a great way that people dig the show in the way that they dig it like i'm freaking out you created a great female character yeah you have a bunch of supporting characters that become like almost like on a basketball team. Oh, I love that three-point shot.

Do you think Wendy Rhodes finally makes up for Joe being the worst character in a great movie? Like, have we cleared the decks? Because Wendy's so good now that we can be forgiven for creating Joe in Rounders. Oh, Joe Rounders? Yeah. Do we cover that in the oral history? Yeah, we can cover it. Sure. Yeah. What do you want to cover? Do we cover that in the oral history? Yeah, we can cover it.

Sure. Yeah. What do you want to cover? So I've been making fun of Koppelman for, I'm saying this to the listeners, since we've ever talked about this movie about Joe being the ultimate wet blanket girlfriend. This is Matt Damon's girlfriend in the movie. And every scene exists for her just to bring Matt Damon down in the audience. But this was the era of the wet blanket girlfriend. No, you're going to go with Anne Heche and Brasco, which is one of the, the thing about

Anne Heche and Brasco, Brasco is one of the greatest movies ever. And it's the best movie for our age that we live in now. Cause you can, the movie loses nothing by skipping every scene she's in. Yeah. Except the phone call. I want to listen to you breathe. You need that. Well, the number one.

You need that from the beginning. That is pretty good. And then you need that. The number one ever is For Love of the Game with Kevin Costner. It's a love story, but if you actually, if they re-edited it and every Kevin Costner scene's out, it's one of the best one hour movies of all time. That's great. You know, that movie is so, that movie does not work for me. I should have loved that movie. The baseball stuff's great. Hey, that movie does not work for me. I should have loved that movie. The baseball stuff's great. Hey, we got to take one more break.

Google Assistant? Have you done anything with, done a read for them yet? No, tell me, should I do? And I don't know them. So tell me, what do I need to know about Google Assistant? Well, you can complete over a million actions on your phone, in your car, and around the house. For instance, you say, hey, Google. I turned it on. So you could say, wow, I can't believe that picked it up from there.

Well, you just said the buzzword. Yeah. You could say, hey, Google. Book me a table for four at Major Domo. Sure. Let's make a reservation with OpenTable for four people at Major Domo. And they would immediately respond with an answer. And it's that easy. And for somebody as busy as you, I would urge you to download the Google Assistant. And it could be like your own personal assistant that you just order around.

It can't get you a major, no one can get a major DOMA reservation though. Right. Google Assistant, download it right now. Very easy to get. And then hook it up on an app and you're ready to go. We got a lot of stuff going on with Chang. He's an in-demand guy. He's a guy who needs Google assistant.

The best show on Netflix. I just want to say it. What was your favorite one? I love the pizza one. Three and fried rice. The home cook, home cooking and fried rice. Ugly Delicious is amazing. I have a couple more Billions things.

Then we get to Under the Giant quickly. The show, you want it to be like rollicking and entertaining, but the danger is that it would become campy, which is a line that you guys have not really, maybe you've dipped over it once, twice, three times over the course of two years, but you've really done a nice job of monitoring the rollicking, entertaining side versus the, oh, this is fucking stupid.

Come on, guys. Come on. Don't do it. No, stop it. How much do you think of that balance? Because in my opinion, that's the key to the show. My partner is amazing at that, at knowing where the line is. Left to my own devices, I might push over it occasionally, but Dave is really amazing at sort of having that conversation.

What's your favorite, we can't do that, that you almost did that? No, and we don't really, even they don't get, I would tell it like- They would never get to that point? No, no, you're just sitting in a room talking through the things and spitballing. And sometimes it will be something from life, right? You could come in with something that some billionaire, someone told you, but if you actually did it on the show, it would just seem corny and overdone and fake and you wouldn't believe it.

The truth is Dave and I are both constantly thinking about the tone of the show and the mood of the show and how we do want it to be entertaining. Like we don't want it to be work to watch it, right? If people want to pick out themes from the show, they're clear and you can do it. If you want to figure out what we're saying about the world, it's there for you. Yeah. But we also want to allow our enthusiasms to come into the show. And that is really what the show is, right? It's the things that for, since Dave and I have been best friends since we're 16 years old or whatever, 15, we've shared this language about pop culture. And we're not, so we decided to like, in making this show, we're going to try to make it for guys like us or people who have the spirit that we have

men and women and, um, non-gendered people and everyone at at the ringer. And who, yeah, but who, men and women and non-gendered people who, just people, who have like the kind of enthusiasms we do. Who have a bent for being an enthusiast. Who just love this shit. So like in the first episode, it's been in the trailers. And it's been amazing to me. There's a run and you'll see that ends sort of with wag saying um your ego just wrote a check your body can't cash yeah and like a bunch of people online were like like what a brilliant line from billions and i wanted to scream like well you obviously don't watch our show because

you have to understand that's not our line that's a top gun line you know in the show in the scene we make that really clear yeah we say it we say those words in, but like, that's always going to be a part of our show. And so if somebody doesn't like that, I, we're not going to, we could have changed our show and knew how to do it. So it would just be like serious drama, like on the face of it, just pure prestige. But honestly, we wanted to make a show that was a good time to watch. And so if we, a Top Gun quote occurs to us and Wags can say it, we're going to give Wags the fucking Top Gun quote. And if it doesn't tick your series meter and you want to go watch something else instead, go watch that other show. That's fine. I'll be watching The Crown

with you. That's fine. Great. And then the other side of it, we're also not going to get really silly. We're not going to take it to a place, as you said, that these characters wouldn't really... Because it's campy. That the characters wouldn't really do the thing, that it's campy. That's what ruined Sex and the City. Sure. Well, you don't want to get mad at... Which said, first two seasons of Sex and the City were excellent.

And then it became a little campy and over the top and they couldn't stop it once. I liked it the whole time. I always like it. It's like in wrestling when the guys started going higher and higher and all of a sudden they're jumping off 40 foot scaffolds. It's like, we've gone too high now. This is not sustainable.

Well, yeah. Or with the storytelling. I think when the, for me, when the stories got to like sex murder level and wrestling. Oh yeah. In the late nineties.

Yeah. In the late nineties, the war, in the war between the two things happened. Yeah. I was like, I can't watch this anymore. Hold that thought because we're finishing with andre okay because you're you're more excited that there's an andre the giant documentary it's a your ultimate

wheelhouse for a documentary yes one more one more billions question taylor was the breakout kind of new character of season two yeah and is a cool character in a bunch of different ways. Mainly because I've never seen anything like Taylor on television before. But you also, so you have that, which I think was going to work anyway. But then you find an actor. Amazing. Who was really great and kind of had command of the scene and was even in scenes with like Axe and a couple other people where it's just kind of when you're staring at the whole time.

That's kind of hitting the lottery. It was. You hit the character lottery. It is. It's all the things you could hope for. That's one of those things that was, we read a lot of people for that part. We didn't only read gender non-binary people. We read women for that role.

We read men for that role. Why did you become fascinated by the concept of a gender non-binary character? Well, because as you and I are both older people, older white men, there's a lot of the world that's happening that we're not aware of unless our kids bring it home and tell us about it. Yeah. And there was one day when Sam at college and Anna at high school, Anna came home and Sam called home and they both told us the same story. I was in a class and the teacher asked everyone to go around and say their genders, their gender pronouns.

And I remember Amy and I going like, it was literally within a day, maybe not the same day, but within a day, Wednesday, Thursday, Anna came home and told the story. It was the beginning of a semester. That's why they both, they'd both gone for semester, their new semester and had the story. And I remember going, wait, I don't understand. Just a true lack of understanding. Explain this to me. I was like, wait, what do you mean? Explain your gender. And then I, so I immediately went, oh, I get it. You mean someone maybe is transitioning. So they want to be called she. And then both Anna and Sammy went, there's also the pronoun they. And I didn't understand.

I mean, I just truly being an old dude just didn't understand it. You know, I'm still, I'm still having trouble understanding it, but I think we're just so old. It's we're so now i'm fully immersed when i go in a room like a bringer we have a meeting and it's and it's women and men and i'm like hey guys and it's like you're not allowed to do that anymore and i just yeah i can't stop doing it because i'm 48 and i'm just used to saying things certain way when are you gonna have a big blowout for your 50th birthday like how big a thing are you gonna do i might just leave the country and never come back so the thing is that um so that would

happen then one of our writers willie realities his name had met also a gender non-binary person so i brought the story into the writer's room of hey there's this do you guys know about like when you start meet someone new you should say your pronouns and most of the writer's room was like and then willie said i just met somebody and I can have that person come to the writer's room and talk to us about it. And we were like, yeah, do that. And then I grilled my kids about people they'd met. And so they told me the stories and we realized, well, we wanted to bring someone into Axe Capital who could be like a protege, someone that Axe would see himself in, in a certain way, but we didn't want it to be

typical or what you'd expect. We wanted it to be someone who seemed on the surface to have nothing in common with Axe, but that in fact, at the core, had a lot in common. And so the notion of making this gender non-binary character and putting him in the world came to us slowly. Then when we started auditioning people, one other actor got close. But when Asia Kate Dillon came in the room, there was just an intelligence in their eyes. Oh, I like how you'd use the pronouns correctly. I'm so impressed. It's my life.

I know. I'm so bad at it. I want to get better. Well, but I mean, I have a gender non-binary person in my life who I talk to every day. Like I'm with Asia every day of my life. So there's no way you're not going to get trained in it and train yourself in it. And, but the point of it is that Asia is this incredibly powerful actor. You're right. And was able to,

because the first scene they're in is with Mafi and it's that scene where Taylor says, of course I'm a vegan. And I remember that day being on set and it's dance over the guy who wrote you the letter yeah and we're on set that day and the thing just had that life it was exactly what we'd hope but better than we'd written it yeah because they were so the chemistry between the two of them i mean dan is a guy who played football his whole life and is a great athlete a true kind of like bro, you know, dude.

Yeah. And suddenly there was this like magical thing between the two of them. And we were like, oh, we can ride this. This is a real thing. And then the first time that Asia and Damien had a scene together, the second episode of last year, it was, you're correct. It was like hitting the lottery. We looked at each other like,

well, this is, we can do this thing, we hope. And we'd hoped we could do this thing that would go over a bunch of years with the two of them. So what happens like with the Emmy award category? Because I'm sure you submitted. Actor. And there was a lot of conversation and Asia presented at the MTV awards, the first non-gendered actor award. So Wood Asia did research and found out that actor is a non-gendered word. Actress is a gendered word. I always use actor. They chose. Yeah, actress better.

I wrote a column like 12 years ago that Meryl Streep is the greatest actor. Right. Wouldn't even say actress. That was a great moment at the Oscars when Fran McDormand was like, Meryl, you stand. If you stand, everybody will stand. stand it was great just acknowledging yeah like even as she's winning the best actor as she's winning best actress she's like meryl everyone knows you're really like she's like everyone in the world i mean fran is i don't think anybody's really as good as fran mcdormand i do think she is arguably like the best of her time what was

your favorite mcdormand performance i mean you could go right from Blood Simple all the way. I mean, Fargo, it's hard to beat Fargo. I thought Almost Famous was my favorite. Oh, heartbreaking when she points at the album. It's just such a hard- When she points at the eyes on the album like that, you just start weeping. Such a hard role to make her likable

with the way she played. She's great in two. She's just great. But what's funny is Meryl Streep, I think, is what Michael Jordan is to basketball. You just can't unseat Meryl? Number one. But even in the room, it's like she's the most important actor in the room. Yeah, that's the thing.

That's what I was saying. That who is... I mean, maybe Daniel Day-Lewis to some people. Oh, last thing. We'll rip through this quick. I asked you 12 episodes, verse 10. Oh, before we were on the mic, yeah. Yeah, you did 12 because you're happy you're getting the show

and they're like, do 12. You're like, great. What is the right number of episodes for a season? You've talked yourself into 12, but ideally what is the right episode? I don't know the answer. I know that last year, this is what I was saying when you asked me that before we were on the mics. When we wrote 11, when Dave and I wrote

episode 211, and if you haven't seen it, it's the episode that's generally considered the best episode of the show. Other than like the last two of last year are basically considered the best two. And when we wrote 211, I remember writing it, finishing it, Dave and I wrote it together and saying to him, should we just try to end the season here? Because I don't know how we can top this in this season. The whole thing is built to this. But having that final episode of the season, which could have just been an epilogue, actually enabled us to start a bunch of stuff for this season.

And let us conclude by bringing bringing i'm going to spoil the last season right now so turn this off no no no no don't don't spoil last season don't spoil the end of last season it turned out i expected everybody to say that the 211 was their favorite episode by far a lot of people it's the 12th episode of last season because of like what axe was going through and what chuck and wendy were going through like for a lot of people it's the 12th episode of last season because of like what acts was going through and what chuck and wendy were going through like for a lot of people the very end of it was the best thing of the two years so i'm not i have no truck with i just use that expression i haven't used the expression i have no truck with in 20 years i used it twice in this podcast

but um i have no problem with doing 12 episodes how many seasons does this go i mean we would love to do seven it would be great to do seven seasons I'm doing 12 episodes. How many seasons does this go? I mean, we would love to do seven. It'd be great to do seven seasons. And then in the seventh season, I'll be like, no, I wanted eight. I always wanted eight because they'll offer us enough to do eight. And I'll make it like it was always eight seasons in our minds. It wasn't.

It was seven. But I would love to, for sure we'll do eight. We should mention that last year when we did a podcast, I started berating you that you needed a rich sports owner. You needed Axe to buy a team or something. And you were just sitting there with a dumb look on your face. And then it turns out it was like a three-episode arc of Axe trying to get an NFL team. Before the season started, I didn't want to spoil it.

So I couldn't say anything. But I was laughing my ass off. I think he needs maybe that season 5 he makes another run in an NBA team. I think the NBA would cooperate and I think all the stars would want to be in it. Look at Tommy's nodding over there. Maybe he tries to buy it from Joe

Lacob who would by the way absolutely be available to be in Billions. Axe makes a run at Joe Lacob's Warriors team. It's hard to do this. He gets Keedy and Iguodala's support, who, by the way, are both available to be actors. And then you're off. All right, Andre the Giant, really quickly.

So it's coming out on April 10th on HBO. Heads up on that. Did you know how dark, Andre? I got questions for you. Let me just say this. I watched the documentary. You know I freaked out. Yeah.

I knew you would. I loved it for all the reasons you thought I would. You also know how hard it is to actually make a good sports documentary. It is. It is because we've done it. It's really hard. Yours was good. Conor's.

Mine is, Rolling Stone called it the fifth best 30 for 30. But here's the thing. That's what Rolling Stone said. When they made a list of the 30 for 30s. They said the fifth best. Yeah. It makes me so upset. I hate that.

Why? I love lists, but then it's like when something that is like one of your babies and it's like, no, don't rank these. You do it all the time to people. I know. That's the thing. I've listed more than anyone and I got so upset when I saw that. Anyway, it was fifth.

So that's the point. Yes, it was good. Congrats. Number five. You executive produced it. Congrats. So it's really your victory. It's your victory.

They're all winners. I would never rank the 30-30s. It's your victory. But can we just talk? But here's the it. Congratulations. So it's really your victory. It's your victory. They're all winners. I would never rank the 30 for 30s. It's your victory. But can we just talk about here's the thing. Yeah. Did you know how dark a guy Andre was? Because I didn't. That's why I wanted to do it. Because the way William Goldman wrote it, what I thought of Andre was what William Goldman wrote.

Yes. And what William Goldman wrote was people should go find that amazing It's like 500 words. 500 words when he died about what the experience of making Princess Bride of Them was like. Yeah. And the way he painted him, and I only have one problem with the documentary,

but one, so how dark he was the greatest thing to see what he went through every day, to see the fear the other wrestlers had in real life, not wrestling fear, the actual fear they had of disappointing Andre, the love they had for him. So it was this combination of fear and love that they had. Like I, they idolized him. He, the way that he changed the sport and you get into this thing that I'm kind of obsessed with, which is the end of the territories and you will get into it a little. I'm obsessed with it. Actually. Um, I've wanted

to make a show about it. It's to me like one of the greatest what vince did is one of the most amazing stories ever yeah but um the the only problem i have with it is that you guys didn't tell the sam samuel beckett thing that so i don't understand how that's not the doc like it's the kind of thing you would say to somebody i don't understand how you make the documentary so the Samuel Beckett thing. I'm going to do a director, Jason here, talented guy. We're going to do a podcast and we're going to explain why, but there's a specific reason for it. But I don't understand.

It's like the most interesting thing about the guy's life. Why isn't it in the documentary? What if I told you it wasn't true? Who? Are you sure it's not true? Wow. You couldn't prove that it was true we'll go into it with the jason hair thing did samuel beckett live i'm not giving away yet did he live near i'm not giving away yet it was very important for us to have an accurate

documentary which is another reason why we didn't put in stuff like he had back surgery in 1986 and they had to use veterinarian tools. Like you can put all that stuff in there, but if you don't know if it's true. I'm not asking about that. I'm asking about the ride because Beckett had the pickup truck. I'm just asking about the drive to school that Beckett took him on when he was- You're going to have to listen to the Jason Hare podcast that we do. Okay.

Well, the documentary is really great. Then why didn't you make it all about finding out if the Beckett thing was true? Well, maybe we have something in the works for that. Well, I want to see it. Send me the link. Send me the fucking link. The documentary is great because you see something that I've never, ever, ever, ever seen in my life before. You see genuine human emotion from Vince McMahon.

And you see a moment where Vince McMahon is not acting. I won't spoil it. I have already not spoiled a few things that I want to say. Like where Andre's money went. I'm not going to mention any of that because I didn't know anything about that. But you do see a genuine human emotion, like true emotion from Vince. I thought it was brilliant question that was posed to Vince and the way that he tried not to show emotion, but couldn't help himself, told me so much about all sorts of things

I've wondered about the world of pro wrestling, like how it all weighs on him. This sounds like it's your next Netflix show. I mean, Dave and I would love to make a show about that. About the territories? About how Vince did what he did. All right, as long as I'm involved, I'll make it happen. No, I mean, we've met Vince about this.

You better do it soon. I don't know if it's going to be possible. I don't know. You better do it before the Andre thing comes out, because I'm worried that he'll never want to do anything again after this. He hasn't come across badly. I know, but. I don't know. You better do it before the Andre thing comes out, because I'm worried that he'll never want to do anything again after this. Or he doesn't come across badly. I know. But I just don't know.

I told someone in wrestling that that's in the documentary. Because I was like, I said that you guys did that better than I've ever seen. You laid out the question. So I'll just say this. I don't know that it's possible. They're making a movie about Vince that's going to cover that period of time. So I don't actually know if it's possible to do a show, but we have talked a lot about,

and so when I saw the documentary, I freaked out about that portion because I'd spent months thinking about this before that. Well, and then his dad's involved too. It's made it even crazier. The deal he made with his dad. Bought it from his dad. But the deal he made with his dad

was like the deal, the layaway deal. So if he missed one payment, so Vince could have from his dad. But the deal he made with his dad was like the deal, the layaway deal. Yeah. So if he missed one payment, so Vince could have paid his dad the full amount except one payment. If he missed the one payment, his father would have taken the whole company back. Yeah. And Vince went around and dealt with all these thugs and rolled up the whole country. And you guys hint at it and lay it out in a way. But it shows you like Vince has made his character character caricature of himself um by playing the character

but the guy was this ruthlessly brilliant business person right and i i said to him when i i sat with him i said hey how did you um how did you know that you could do it you're 24 you're going up against all of these incredible, incredibly tough, like kind of gangster figures in each of these categories of the world. How did you know you could beat them? They were, you know, supposedly they were killers and they were whatever. And he said, well, I've always tended toward aggression. And Levine and I almost fell out of our chairs it was just an amazing thing and um it was tough one for us because the a story was andre obviously this guy is gonna live and die

and knows he's gonna die at a certain age and is the biggest star in this old version of wrestling and now the new version blows up and his body's starting to break down. They need him for this one last match. So you got that. You knew that's going to work. But then the B story had to be the territories and how wrestling blew up, but it couldn't overpower the A story.

No, no, you're telling a story about- The story's about Andre, but you need the territory. You're telling a story about the eighth wonder of the world. Yeah, you need- 500 pounds, seven foot five. But you need the territories because everything has to pay off with the 10 minutes with WrestleMania 3.

You need all the back context of it. And it's really hard. I loved how we had all the different names before they found 100 of the Giants. It was so obvious. Jean Farid. And they all loved it. They all make it a big deal that someone finally figured out to call him the Giant. That was like-

Yeah, somebody got credit for that. Yeah, they gave some credit. What if we call him 100 of the Giants? He's like, he called him the Giant it's like oh really we're gonna you look at him and obviously he's uh the giant but you don't have to love wrestling to like loving wrestling helps you i think but no the pain this guy being women like this documentary that don't like wrestling and guys who don't like wrestling and i was shocked by that wrestling. And I was shocked by that. No, it's,

um, it's like a really, I'm really, was really glad to see it. And the fact, I mean, you really feel a lot when you're watching it and you feel for him, but I loved that you didn't,

I mean, you know, in the way that when we made our 30 for 30 on Jimmy Connors, the fifth best 30 for 30 of all time, according to Rolling Stone. But when we made that, we were not afraid to show you that Jimmy could be an asshole sometimes. Yes. Which was the most important decision you made. That was the thing.

We're going to make this about a guy who's happy that he's an asshole. Yeah. You know, you guys, Andre has always been painted as the nicest guy in pro wrestling. That's the like image from the outside that Andre, cause he was never a heel except in Japan. And that one small run that you guys cover, but he was always a baby face. And he also, because you would always see the pictures of him doing charitable things,

which he did. He seemed like only a force for good and like a great guy. But when you see in the thing that in fact, he was a complicated human being. Don't give away too much. That he was dark. That's good, you can give away dark. I'm not giving away plot.

Okay. You just see that he was a texture guy and that Hulk Hogan was scared of him. Was Connors an hour? Yeah. We made the decision together. We felt like the hour was right. See, this is one of the things I loved about doing Andre

is the time was just the right time. Yeah. And at 30 for 30, if it was an hour, it's 52 minutes in commercials. And if it was an hour and a half, it was an hour 17. We did a cut of our- 25 minute jump. We did the cut of the Connors things for ourselves.

We never even showed you guys. It was longer. I remember talking to you about it though. Yeah, we were just like, yeah, it's supposed to be in it. This one's in it. Because we like had a narrow scope, wasn't be in it. This one's in it. Because we had a narrow scope. It wasn't his whole life. We were fine with that.

And obviously, it worked a great, you know, because- It was the fifth best ever, apparently. Fifth best. I wish we had had 10 more minutes with it, though. Yeah. But I thought that way about every 30th of Thursday. I was like, I was obsessed with like, I wish we had four more. Are they ever going to make the movie about Richard

Jewell I thought that Richard Jewell that's the Olympics guy right that was his name yes for me that was an astonishing thing that was really good I thought like I don't know do people watch their shorts a lot you know what was funny about them they were a little before their time from what

people's streaming capabilities were. And if we had- Oh, really? But we knew that. And when we were trying to pitch it and when they let us finally do volume two, and a big part of that was we also want to do these shorts. We feel like we want to get in this space before other people do. And the computers, iPads, iPhones, like it wasn't great.

The ESPN video player was terrible, which was so frustrating because the company was making like $8 billion a year and they couldn't figure out a video player. This is all I should have asked you about on our podcast within 12 to 15 months. Oh my God, it was just so frustrating. It was like, you guys have all this money.

Can you just give us a C plus on this? This video player was just stopping. Really? All right. Billions, season three. Stay away, no. That's great. Premiering on Showtime this Sunday.

The show Entertainment Weekly calls Devilish Fun. New episodes Sunday, 10 o'clock, 9 central on Showtime. My listeners can get an extended 30-day free trial of Showtime to catch up on the first two seasons of Billions by entering code BS at GetShowtime.com. Offer expires April 15th. Don't forget about ZipRecruiter. Try it out at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Don't forget about, if you want to hear a deep dive, a real deep dive, like almost like an oil rig deep dive of seasons one and two, go to the Binge Mode podcast.

And then Mallory and I, the mother of dragons, the recapables, Sunday night. I'm watching episode one, season three, two night, taping recapables with her tomorrow. Billions will end at 11 o'clock East Coast time. That pod's going right up. Awesome. Boom.

When's this one up? This one's going up Friday overnight, tonight. Friday before the season starts. People wake up on Friday morning and they'll look outside on the East Coast and it's going to be 12 inches of snow and they're going to feel sad. And then they're going to get this little alert and it's going to be our podcast. You, David Chang, John Hamburg, the great writer, director, you should have on. He's a great podcast.

He'd be a great guest for you. All have come to LA from the East Coast. And never left. I don't understand it. You're a diehard New Yorker. We didn't even talk about the Knicks because it's too sad. I can't. No, no, no.

No need. It's too. Thanks for doing this. All right. Compliment. Pleasure is ours. All right. See you. Pleasure is ours. All right.