The Bill Simmons Podcast - Bob Arum on Ali's GOAT-ness, Hagler-Hearns, Evel Knievel, and Battling Don King | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 483)

Episode Date: February 15, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by legendary boxing promoter Bob Arum to discuss his unorthodox start in boxing, some incredible stories about Muhammad Ali, Elijah Muhammad, Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Durán, Don King, and Evel Knievel, wise guys, the FBI, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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where you can find something like 25 of our podcasts, something for everybody, sports, pop culture, movies, TV, music, whatever you need. We have it. Check that out. Go to TheRinger.com. Coming up, we are going to talk to the legendary boxing promoter, Bob Arum,

who I've never had on a podcast before. And I had always wanted to do it. And he came in two weeks ago and it's, it's really something. So that's coming up first, our friends from Pearl Jam. all right what an honor bob arum i always felt when i was a kid i had to choose between you and don king and I always chose you. I don't know what it was.

I'm certainly the more congenial guy, right? Yeah, I just gravitated. I made the right pick, I felt like. You had more fighters that I liked. Yeah. You had all my dudes. You had Hagler. Hagler, and did a lot of Sugar Ray's fights,

and Tommy Aarons, and Duran. But Marvin was my guy. I really, I really loved Marvin and he was, you know, the epitome of a hardworking, no-nonsense fighter. Yeah. Let's go backwards. So I was, I try not to research the guests too much, but I wanted to make sure I had some facts right. And you were a lawyer before you got into boxing. Yeah, right. And you got heavily involved. Your firm was doing the forward for the Warren Commission, and you threw yourself into the JFK assassination, which is one of my passion projects.

Yeah, but that isn't why I got involved in boxing. No, no, no. I just want to talk about JFK. Yeah, after I had served in the U.S. Attorney's Office, I was the head of the tax division for the Southern District of New York. Yeah. And I handled a case where we seized the funds from the Patterson-Liston fight, the first one. Huge amount of money for then, for that time. Yeah. And after the president was

assassinated and Bobby left the Justice Department, I left in 1965 and joined the Louie Nizer firm in New York. And at that point, the Warren Commission had put out a report on the assassination, and Doubleday commissioned Nyser to write the foreword for the report, for their version of that they were selling it. The report was, of course, a public document. And I was assigned by Nyser the task of researching it and critiquing it. And so, in effect, I wrote most of the foreword to that report in the double-day edition publishing the report. And there's no internet back then. So what are you, like in the public library,

just reading everything possible? How were you even researching it? Well, you research, first of all, you read the report. Yeah. And there was extensive exhibits. And in essence, you did your research based on the Warren Commission findings. But I didn't trust the Warren Commission's findings. I didn't 100% trust it.

Well, see, I disagree. I think they did a good job, and they tried to learn as much as possible, but there were such machinations going on at that time. Yeah. There were a number of ways it could go. The president, John Kennedy, was engaged with these plots to kill Castro. Yes. And Castro, you know, was answering back. So there was the idea that maybe the assassin was in the pay or under the control of Castro. And he had spent time in the Soviet Union a couple of years. And he had married a Russian woman.

And he was in Cuba, too. And he was in Cuba, too. And they had reports that he had been in the consulate, Cuban consulate. Now, on the other hand, there was also the theory that he was working for the mob because the mob felt betrayed by President Kennedy because the mob had supported Kennedy when he ran against Nixon for president. And there was allegations that the mob had helped fix the vote in Illinois.

I think there were more than allegations. Well, whatever it is, whatever it is. that the mob had helped fix the vote in Illinois. I think there were more than allegations. Well, whatever it is. Whatever it is. And then the president appointed his brother, Bobby, the attorney general, and he went after the mob. And so they felt betrayed. And there was also kennedy and the mob the mob boss's mistress might have might have been sharing yeah well that that that that is true but i don't you know jack

the president had so many mistresses yeah that it wasn't like he was hot on one woman true it was like i mean i remember as an assistant U.S. attorney walking with the FBI guys in Manhattan on Central Park South, and they showed me the apartment where the president, when he was in New York, would bring his girls. He would, you know, I mean, anything that came after were guys who were like sort of considered how great Kennedy was. And they wanted to follow in his footsteps, including President Clinton. Right.

It was great for Kennedy. Why isn't it good for me? Right. In any event, that was, and as evidence that maybe the mob had something to do with the assassin and the assassination. So people thought maybe Oswald, you thought it was a single assassin I think there was enough proof that there was a that this guy was a really good shot and I don't

buy the thing that it was a cheap Italian rifle I think he I was convinced that yeah it was but he was on his own. I really believe that he did it by himself. Now, the reason that there was suspicion that the mob was behind it,

that he was working for the mob, was the Jack Ruby thing. Yes. I mean, how does a guy like Ruby, who's mob connected, is running a strip club in Dallas, how does he suddenly show up in the police precinct when they're bringing Oswald out and shooting him? I mean, come on. He was outraged because, I mean, give me a break. Yeah. So there was that connection. That's why I really accepted the Warren Commission report regarding the shooting, that Oswald was the lone shooter.

I'm still not convinced as to who put Oswald up to it. Now, I must say that I really have always believed that the policy of the United States towards Cuba,

I really believe that it would last as long as Castro was alive because that the government had evidence that Castro was behind the assassination. So it was a little retaliation. Yeah. The autopsy, all that stuff, And then there's a pruder film, which was clearly like they did something to it.

Those are, those are my two red flags. I don't believe they didn't do it. That's nonsense. There's, there was some missing. Come on, let's stick to the facts.

Some frames were missing. Let's stick to the facts. Where did it go for two years? I don't know. I mean, again, this many years ago and my memory isn't what it once was. Your memory is amazing, though.

You're 87. You remember all this stuff. We had lunch a few weeks ago, and you got to tell the Snake Canyon story in a little bit. But I want to go from, how did you actually get into boxing? Give me the one-minute version. Because you're this lawyer. You go to Harvard Law School. You're on this path to, I'm sure, to be some high-powered attorney, and all of a sudden you're a boxing promoter.

So as I said, I handled the seizure of all the funds of the Patterson-Liston fight. And the reason I think pretty much that Bobby, my immediate boss, the attorney general, was so anxious to intercede was because Roy Cohn, who he hated, was the promoter of that fight. And he had evidence that Cohn was going to take the money, put it over to Sweden, and pay Patterson on a deferred payment basis, which he couldn't do at the time.

So on that basis, we seized all the funds, about $5 million, which was a lot of money. Yeah. And I took Cohn's deposition for 10 days. I mean, I learned everything about the boxing business. And he was an interesting guy to question. And I just kept them going. And when I left in 1965 and went with the Nisa firm, a company that was televising boxing on a closed circuit basis, hired the firm, hired me to represent them. And they were doing a fight, Ernie Terrell and George Chavalo from Canada, and they were doing no business.

So they asked me what I could suggest to do some business. And this was 1965, and there had never been a black person who had been a commentator on any sports show, any news show, ever. So I said, let's get a black guy and make him part of the commentating team. And they said, what a great idea. So I went, he said, you do it. So I went Willie Mays. He didn't want any part of it. And a friend of mine was the attorney. Uh, he was from Manhasset, Long Island, and he was the guy who had, was representing Jim Brown. And he was the guy who was responsible for Jim going to Syracuse University. And he told me, I think Jim would be interested in doing this. Jim Brown, the greatest football player of all time. And this was his

ninth year during the season. And so we retained Brown to be part of the commentating team for $500. That was the fee. And I'll never forget it. I don't even remember the figures. Well, I remember a lot of stuff about that because it shaped my life. Yeah. Because the fights then that were on closed circuit were Terrell Chiavallo were on a Monday night. And the football game was a Sunday. And I remember Jim Cleveland was playing Minnesota. And Jim hadn't done well that day.

They had beaten him up. And he dragged his ass up to Toronto where the fight was and asked for me because I hadn't met him before. And we became really good friends. And after the fight, he said to me, you know, you shouldn't be the lawyer for these guys.

You should be the promoter. And I said, well, Jim, I never really saw a boxing match and I have no interest in boxing. And there's only one guy that means anything. And that's Cassius Clay. And he said, well, I'll set up a meeting with you to meet Muhammad Ali. And I thought it was just talk. But two months later, he set up a meeting and I became the lawyer and promoter for Muhammad Ali after being sent out to Chicago

for the approval of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. I was going to say that was right when Ali was knee deep and he had everybody around him. He was changing his name. He had the Nation of Islam. Oh, right, right. And this was it. Not a lot of white people probably in the room, I'm guessing.

There were very few white people. But again, I must say that from the time I got the approval of Elijah Muhammad and I became Ali's promoter and lawyer, these people in the nation of Islam couldn't have treated me better. They had my back. And it was, I mean, Jim told me about six months into the arrangement that he said, you're a white guy and you have more influence with these people than I do. But then Ali has the exile. Well, what happened? So you get into boxing and then he can't fight anymore. Well, you see, that's why I stayed in. I thought it would be fun to promote an Ali fight. And I was only going to do one fight. And the fight was going to be Ali and Terrell, and it had to be in Chicago. That was part of the deal. And then when Ali was training for the fight,

the Selective Service reclassified him from 1Y to 1A. 1Y was not eligible because Ali at that point was functionally illiterate. Yeah. Couldn't read or write. So I couldn't pass any tests, really. But they reclassified him 1A, and they interviewed him before we could get to him. And that's when he said that he wasn't going to go into the Army, wasn't going to fight the Viet Cong. They had never called him the N-word.

Yeah. And then the called him the N-word. Yeah. And then the shit hit the fan. Daley, the original mayor of Chicago, got the Illinois Commission to throw us out. I got them to grant a reprieve and have Ali come in and try to fix everything. And Ali made everything worse. So we got kicked out of Chicago.

We got kicked out of the United States. We ended up in Toronto, which is another story. Good publicity for that fight. And then Terrell dropped out. Terrell dropped out because the American Legion, in their wisdom, threatened to boycott, to strike, protest all the closed-circuit locations showing the fight. So that's where the money came from.

So Shavalo, who Terrell had beaten, stepped in, and that was my first fight. And then I got Ali. I was really pissed off at that point. And I got Ali and we went to England and did two fights in England and then Germany. And then I got a call from Judge Hoffines in Houston, Texas. And he said, you bring him down here. I'll protect you. Which he did.

Oh, it's Cleveland Williams? And he fought Cleveland Williams. Oh. And then he fought Ernie Terrell. Those are the two best, if you want to make the case, Ali was the greatest to ever watch those two fights. The unbelievable performance. All time. Unbelievable performance.

The Cleveland Williams backstory on that fight is something special, but I don't think I should do it on the podcast. I remember he had a bullet in his body, right? Yes, yes, yeah. And he had a U-Benbo was his manager. I mean, it was a wild thing. And it was Texas. But Judge Hoffines, Roy Hoffines, was quite a man.

And we did big numbers for both of those fights. And it was Texas. But Judge Huffines, Roy Huffines, was quite a man. And we did big numbers for both of those fights. And then Ali came back to New York, came to New York for Zara Foley. And that's when they actually went to trial. They convicted him for avoiding the draft. And he was sentenced to prison, which was suspended pending appeal. And five years, people don't realize that. And he appealed.

We appealed to the circuit court, appealed, denied. And then the question was, would the Supreme Court hear the case? Because the Supreme Court, that type of case, the four judges had to agree to hear the case in order for the case to proceed. And Thurgood Marshall had to recuse himself because he had been the solicitor general. Yeah. And so they had eight judges. We had to have four to agree to hear the case.

And the original vote was seven to one against hearing the case. And the law clerks who were really studied what had happened to Ali, they convinced these judges who were obviously of a different generation that Ali had been unfairly treated. And the judges agreed to hear the case. And Ali had his conviction reversed 8 to nothing which but he lost 3 and a half years but he lost 3 and a half years

what were you doing for money during all this what were you doing for money well I were you doing other fights no well I did know I was a lawyer no well I did a ABC had me do a heavyweight tournament to find a temporary successor with Jimmy Ellis won that tournament

and also I was a lawyer so I practiced security law practiced tax law you know I also, I was a lawyer, so I practiced security law, practiced tax law. You know, I did what I was supposed to do. So you never thought at that point, boxing's going to become my life. It still wasn't on the horizon. Absolutely not. I was fascinated with it at that time. But it really, you know, the truth is I knew so little about the sport of boxing that it took me a while to realize that there was any division other than the heavyweight division. Right.

You didn't know there were 10, 12 other ones. Because we used to do undercards. It was all heavyweights. How, when you got into boxing, how crooked was it? Well, it was. How involved was the mob? How involved was fight fixing, all that stuff? Interesting, interesting.

Because the mob had been in complete control of the sport. When Ali won the title and changed his name and his connection with the Nation of Islam came out, and then when I came in as his promoter and lawyer, being a Justice Department guy, the word went out to all the mob guys, stay away because you'd either run into these crazy guys with the Nation of Islam and there'd be physical confrontation and a lot of angst, or this son of a bitch who had been in the Justice Department was spying on you to put you in jail. Were you worried about your safety?

No, I never worried about my safety. I never worried about my safety. And indeed, I wasn't threatened at all. The only time I've ever been threatened. You want to hear the story? Yeah. Okay. Funny story.

I mean, funny in retrospect. I get a call from an assistant United States attorney who I knew because I had been in the office and so forth. And he said, Bob, I have to tell you this on this section of the law because we have information that you are in danger of imminent bodily harm or you could even be killed because we got that information we have to pass it on to you i said okay thanks who who's threatening me we're not allowed to tell you. I said, you idiot. You call me up. You get me all worked up and so forth. And so I had somebody go to that point, I had thought maybe it was a couple of guys in boxing,

this, that, and the other thing. I knew a guy at the FBI and I asked him and he wouldn't tell me, but he indicated to me that it was Don King. So I went to this lawyer who went down to Florida, talked to mob guys. Now King was in with the mob because they had financed him in a couple of ventures and he owed them a lot of money. And the lawyer came back and he said to me that everything is okay. You don't have to worry. King has been told that if you step off the sidewalk, because I live in New York, and you get hit by a bus, he is dead. Right?

And he will call you, right, to tell you. So an hour later, I get a call from King, ha, ha, ha, why would I try to kill you, and so forth, and so on. Anyway, that was the only time that I've ever been threatened, if you call that a threat. So you don't even know 100% sure if it happened, but it might have happened. Well, I was sure that he had made the threat, but I don't know how sincere he was in making that threat. Do you think the Ali Liston second fight was fixed? That was before your time. It was before my time,

but I talked about it a lot with the Ali camp and everybody. And what came through to me, whether it's true or not, was Liston was a coward. Yeah. Liston was a bully and a coward. So a bully, if you get the best of him, will back down. Yeah. Like he quit in the first fight. He did.

Yeah. And in the second fight, Ali threw that punch, and it was a grazing punch. It did hit him, but it was nothing punch, and he went down. And then he started flapping around like a fish. Flapping around. And Ali, well, Ali, you know, instead of going to the corner, was running around, get up, get up, get up.

And Liston punked out. But was there any nefarious? The answer, I think not. But I'm not sure. Again, as you said, I wasn't around then. I came in afterwards. Yeah. Because then after that, he fought Floyd Patterson,

and then I came into the picture. Let's take a break to talk about Belvedere, produced in one of the world's longest-running distilleries. Belvedere vodka is the world's finest all-natural vodka, part of a 600-year Polish vodka-making tradition. Belvedere is made with non-GMO Polish rye, pure water, no additives, recognized for quality. Belvedere, named the ISC World Vodka Producer of the Year

in 2015, 2016, and 2017. I'm sure at All-Star Weekend this weekend in Charlotte, North Carolina, where I am right now, I'm sure the Belvedere would be very available. And I'm sure I will have some. Probably with a soda, soda water, maybe splash of lime,

maybe a little tiny bit of cranberry in there, just give it a little sugar bump. Enjoy a delicious cocktail with Belvedere vodka today. And remember to always drink responsibly. Back to Bob Arum. When boxing really started to take off in the 70s because of TV and closed circuit, and they just kind of figured out the mechanics

of how to promote a fight, how to sell it, how to have a lot of people see it, why World of Sports became so crucial for Ali. Did you feel like post-Ali we were going to be all right? Because remember that was the big fear in like 76, 77. What happens after Ali? Not really. Not really.

Look, you've got to get the perspective. There hadn't been any boxing on television, on network television, for about 10 years after the Kefauver hearings, which exposed the corruption, the mob connection in boxing. So it had been banned, in effect. And the Griffith fight, that didn't help either when somebody died in the ring, right? With Perrette, yeah. But again,

it was really the mob connection. Okay. Alright, so when I brought Ali over to England, the fight was on a Saturday night, which was Saturday afternoon

in the United States. And Ru Knowledge, who was a great visionary, was the head of ABC Sports, called us and he said, look, we want to televise this fight on Wide World of Sports. And it fights in England in the evening. It's the afternoon in the United States. Perfect for Wide World of Sports. And I think he paid us $50,000, a lot of money then, because this was the beginning of satellite technology.

You can get the picture over. And the rating went through the roof. So the next fight, when he fought Brian London in England, they raised the rights fee to 100. And then when he fought Mildenberger in Frankfurt, a few months later, the rights fee was 200. And that was the start of the fact that, hey, boxing appeals to people, Ali appeals, it could really rate. And boxing started making a comeback then.

But the comeback really came in 1976 when the Olympics were held in Montreal. That was my team. I watched that entire Olympics. Right. With five dudes. We had that great, great US boxing team with Sugar Ray Leonard, Howard Davis, the Spinks brothers, Leah Randolph, John Tate. We won five gold medals in that Olympics.

When somebody got screwed, we should have won six. No, I think. Didn't somebody should have? There was five, but there's almost, there could have been six. I don't remember that. I remember five. I know Tate got beat, but he got a bronze medal. So that was

the Olympiad later when Howley Field got screwed. But that's a different story. But so in 76, so Cosell did such a great job of boosting Ray Lennon, fell in love with Ray Lennon,

that that really started the networks in getting involved, all the networks, on putting boxing on. CBS got involved, NBC got involved. CBS, NBC, and of course ABC always had been involved. And that made stars of these guys so that four years later, less than four years later, Sugar Ray fought Duran in Montreal, and that did business never before seen in boxing,

both closed circuit, the gate, and everything. And boxing took off. So that's a great point because Ali is starting to fade at that point. Right. He did. It's post-Manila. Ali was really finished in 1978. He wasn't finished as an icon, but he was finished as a dominant guy.

Yeah, after he lost to Spinks and then beat Spinks in New Orleans. Which was still fun, but it was kind of... Yeah. Shaver's fight, I remember being like, oh, no. He almost... Shaver's almost killed him. This is heading toward a bad place. Absolutely.

But Sugar Ray showed up. I was like six. He was like, that's my guy. Sugar and follow him. I remember watching ABC would just beat him into the ground you had in addition to sugar ray you had this crazy guy from panama roberto duran yeah who was like a menacing kind of guy uh you had uh uh tommy hearns who didn't go to the Olympics but had this great punch. And then from nowhere, you got this fellow who couldn't get a fight and got a shot at the title because of the intercession

of two leaders of Congress. Yeah. It was marvelous Marvin Hagler. That's an unbelievable story. I mean, you know, Hagler, nobody wanted to fight him. He was very good. He was a Southpaw. Nobody wanted to fight a Southpaw.

So he's a bald black guy. And he was a black, yeah. So, you know, he'd fight these Philadelphia guys. But they didn't want to put him on TV, right? King wouldn't. King was doing the tournament and wouldn't put him on TV. Because he didn't feel like he... That he couldn't do anything with him and who needed him in there.

It wasn't a draw. And that was whatever reason King had. And so I got two letters that came the same day. One was from Tip O'Neill, who was Speaker of the House, and the other from Teddy Kennedy, who was a senator from Massachusetts, that unless I gave their constituent, Marvin Hagler, a shot at the title, because I was doing all the middleweight championship fights, sooner rather than later, I would have my ass hauled before congress and they would do an

investigation on me so i said hey i don't need this trouble so i got a hold of rip valente who was marvin's promoter from new england and i knew very well because he did a lot of closed circuit for me and i said hey rip i don't want any trouble so he got the petronellis to come to my office they were the manager and trainer of marvin and i agreed uh for marvin to uh we give him a 10 round fight against this very good argentine fighter cabrera norberto cabrera and if he that fight, match him for the world title, which we did. And the judges in Nevada, in their infinite wisdom, scored that fight with Antefermo a draw, though Marvin won almost every round.

That was one of the five biggest disgraces of the last four years. Disgrace, disgrace, disgrace. Anyway, and so then I had Marvin fight three fights. That was one of the five biggest disgraces of the last four years. Disgrace, disgrace, disgrace. Anyway, and so then I had Marvin fight three fights before he got a crack at the title. And by that time, Alan Minter was the middleweight champion. British guy. British guy. And Agla stopped Minter.

And Minter was, you know, was, I forgot what the name of the organization was but it was the equivalent of the white supremacist party in england i mean he got on radio i never forget and he said no black man is going to win the title from me and so when ha Hagler stopped him instead of you know really enjoying having his moment they started throwing beer bottles

at us and we ended up under the ring it's an incredible YouTube clip because I think it's three rounds something like that it's three four rounds after three rounds Minter's face it looks like he's been in a car accident

he just killed him wins the title and then immediately everybody throws beer bottles at him and he's scurrying for his life in those days they didn't like pour beer into a plastic cup they had cans and bottles.

Yeah. It was dangerous as hell, I remember. I remember Howard Cosell, I don't blame him, cowering under the ring. Right. So you hit the jackpot with Leonard. Then you have Hagler. And out of nowhere, Duran, although he wasn't out of nowhere.

But I think for the American boxing fan it was not somebody who had been in high profile well but Duran had been on on on network

television on TV but Leonard carried that first fight from a promotion although Duran clearly won that fight and he got the decision

so I saw that closed circuit with my stepdad and I was so upset that so many people were rooting for duran i was like 10 but duran had that he was like the the letter was the pretty boy and duran was like the the tough guy and and once you know once you you you spent time and i got to know duran

because he fought for me for years and yeah right He had a couple good comebacks. He was the funniest guy, the nicest guy. All he wanted to do was have a good time. His persona in the ring was clearly different from what he was as a person. He was just a good time guy. Well, he definitely didn't like Leonard because even when the 15th round ended in the first fight, Durant didn't want to shake hands he was like still mad at him

you don't know what the story was no well Ray was in one hotel in Montreal where the fight was being held and Durant was in the other hotel.

And Ray had his wife, Juanita, his first wife, along with him. And Duran had a spy that would inform him when Juanita was going out, leaving the hotel to go shopping. And he would follow Juanita's car in his own car, and he would go up and he said, after I, you know, he could hardly speak English, after I beat your husband, you will sleep with me, some crazy stuff. And, you know, she would be horrified and report back to Ray, who got so angry that he really lost control.

So, Ray, way to beat Duran. He was a great boxer, Leonard was. Yeah, he fought him like a street fighter. Well, because he was so angry because Duran had really caused that confrontation. Now, you watch that fight. And early on, Ray is in there fighting. Duran's winning all the rounds. Later on, like from the 12th round on, because the 15-round fight,

Ray starts boxing. And Duran can't do anything now from that time they fought three times two more times one was the Nomas fight and then the last fight they had Duran never won a round because Ray knew to beat Duran you had to box him I was so frustrated the first fight. I didn't understand why he was fighting that way. It was like a mano a mano macho. That makes sense now.

Second fight did you ever buy the Duran? When I was at ESPN we did a 30 for 30 about this. Did you ever buy Duran's explanation? Yeah it was true. The explanation was that ray only wanted to do a rematch because he felt so bad that he had lost he had never lost felt bad so they mike trainer who was representing ray made a deal with King that, in effect, they gave Duran and his people the lion's share.

Now, Duran, after the first fight. And you're not involved in this? No, I wasn't involved. Oh, wow. Because that was King, now King. So you guys are head-to-head on everything at this point. We're head-to-head on the, we co-promoted the first fight and then he steals the second one and they you know they go to him and they offer him everything to so he

and carlos aletta who was the manager of duran carve up a ton of money yeah Yeah. And they offer Duran a decent purse, but nothing what was on the table. And Duran doesn't want to do it because he's partying back in Panama and he's out of shape and all of that stuff. And they force him into the fight. So again, yeah. Did he have stomach pains? Yeah. Did did he was he in good shape no didn't matter

he never won another round from ray so when they had the third fight which was 12 rounds ray won every round leonard broke him i felt like like, in New Orleans. Yeah. I felt like whatever was going on physically, he knew he wasn't going to touch him. Ray was a superb boxer. He really was. Yeah. Were you there for the press conference when he made it seem like he was going to maybe fight Hagler in the rematch

and then it turned out he just retired and he embarrassed Hagler? Well, I remember all of that sort of stuff. Wasn't it to embarrass Hagler? He had a bad eye and so forth. Well, it did embarrass Hagler? Well, I remember all of that sort of stuff. Wasn't it embarrassed Hagler? He had a bad eye and so forth. Well, it did embarrass Hagler, though. He decided that he would fight Hagler really after he beat Tommy Hearns. Was from New England.

He saved all his money. He had enough. He wanted to retire. Somehow, I talked him into fighting Mugabe. You talked Hagler into fighting Mugabe. Yeah. Wait, hold that thought. You did Hagrid Hearns, which was the greatest nine minutes of all time. Eight minutes,

whatever. You were at that fight. Yes. That's your number one. That's everyone's number one. That's the best fight. That's the best one ever. Yeah. That fight and the Thriller in Manila are the two best fights. Are 1A, 1B? Yeah.

So Hagler gets out of that. You talk him into Mugabe, and Mugabe, that's one of the most brutal fights of the 80s. Brutal fights of all time. So Ray sees that Marvin is slowing up. Now he wants to come back. He figures out a way that he can beat Marvin. So, I mean, to get Hagler to go through with that fight was really something.

And Trena wanted to do the fight himself. Didn't want me involved. Didn't want Top Rank involved. Hagler wouldn't do the fight unless we were the promoter. So Hagler was loyal to you to the bitter end. Hagler was the most loyal guy, both to the Petronellis, to me. He knew nothing but loyalty.

And so I paid Ray what they asked, $11 million of fortune then. And we took all the rest. And Hagler fought on percentage and made $19 million. And every time I remind Ray of that, he gets so angry. So he took the guaranteed money over the upside. He took the guaranteed money. Marvin took the percentage.

Marvin wouldn't help with the promotion. And Ray carried the promotion. And he really, you know, Ray's a good guy. Really good guy. I remember I was with boxing, you know, from the wide world of sports era to when it started, we used to have the little HBO box on our TV and then when they started having it. And I don't remember exactly the year that pay-per-view started, but I remember pay-per-viewing Leonard Hagler and it felt like a relatively new

experience. Did you have any idea where that was going? Well, no, because we still divided up the country, and we had closed-circuit exhibitors that paid guarantees in different areas. Now, the closed-circuit exhibitors were, some of them were contacted by individual cable companies who wanted to show the fight on pay-per-view. And they, the closed circuit exhibitors made 80-20 deals. We would get it, they would get 80 and the'd get 20. And the cable system would get 20. Keep 20. It was 80-20. And they did really fantastic pay-per-view numbers.

Prior to that, in the Leonard Durand fight in Montreal in 1980, Jerry Parenteau had this system in California, because there was no cable, where he had one channel. And you had to pay for that channel. It was encrypted. And he came to me and he said, I want to show it on pay-per-view on my channel. And he gave me a really big sum of money. And they did 90% of the people that subscribed to that channel bought the pay-per-view.

Jesus. That began to show me how the pay-per-view could really change everything. By the way, for people listening who don't know what closed circuit, Kyle, you know what closed circuit is? Cameras, like CCTV. Yeah, so closed circuit was, so I watched Leonard Duran in a highlight place because they just had this,

you had to basically go, almost like you're going to a basketball game and they would just show the fight on a screen. And that was the only way to see it. Oh, so that's what you actually mean by closed circuit. me to leonard uh hearns the first one okay and we went to the boston garden they showed it in the boston garden wow but it was just a broadcast of the fight and it was like 19 15 000 people and now the cable companies you know they now they become really this is in the 90s 1990s they becames, they became really doing big numbers.

And they are the greediest people in the world. And they tried to say, well, we'll keep 60%, give you 40%. And I said, no. They said, what are you going to do? Because we're the pipeline. I said, I'm going to go back to closed circuit so i did closed circuit in the west where they had them i had my mexicans right yeah delaware we couldn't open enough places we had closed circuit at the rose bowl at the coliseum every place as soon as we crossed the Mississippi, we died. Yeah.

So cable was like 87, but in the 90s, that was when. That was the big. And it was hard. And then, of course, they had the direct TV, the satellite dishes. And now we're heading toward this world with, I mean, I don't need to tell you this, but it's going to be all these places like DAZN and ESPN Plus where they're just buying it and they want it for their OTT app. Yeah. And that's basically the future of boxing other than the pay-per-views, right? Well, that may be.

We don't know. We don't know yet. We don't know yet. I think the pay-per-view does have. Showtime obviously has it does have yeah and uh we have a lot of ways you can buy the pay-per-view digitally yeah uh from you know and i think that it'll be uh such that we'll be able to cut down the percentages that the cable systems get and that the dishes get because there's another avenue to reach the public, and that's the digital platforms.

Well, if the next iteration of you comes around, like some 37-year-old version of you, and they could form their version of Top Rank, but then have their own digital platform for it, and they don't need anybody else. Subscribe to my app, and you get my fights. Well, I know, but you know. That's 10 years down the road. And the question is, is there enough content for one? I mean, now we do all our digital programming on ESPN+. Yeah.

But, you know, in addition to our content, you have UFC on ESPN+. Did you see the numbers for that last week? Yeah, it was tremendous. Yeah. Tremendous. They added like 600,000 new subscribers or something? Well, they got it on Friday and Saturday. Right.

New subscribers. The late rush. But remember, we had a pretty good card on Friday night, and a lot of people. Oh, yeah, you get some of that credit. Yeah, exactly. And we've brought a lot of good numbers to them. But again, ESPN Plus, in addition to boxing, UFC has tremendous programming.

All the soccer that they have on, football. I like this. It's like an ESPN Plus commercial all of a sudden. Well, I really see it. No, I agree. I think what they're trying to do, they're tapping into these little niche pockets and trying to cluster them so that if I like the UFC, I have to get ESPN+. If I like your fights, I have to get it. Right.

They're trying to get 10 versions of that. Right. And for example, if I went to school at the University of Ohio, I want to see the Ohio football games. I get ESPN Plus. They show the Ohio football game. They show the Harvard football game. It's interesting what's happened to boxing where for a while it was on the prestige.

It was on HBO Showtime and it was pay-per-view. And the feeling was oh, it doesn't work anymore as a network thing. But meanwhile, it actually did work. And if anything, it makes more sense now because you have middle class, lower middle class, people that can't afford fights.

And it's like, this actually makes more sense than I think people gave it credit for. The conventional wisdom was that boxing skewed old. Yeah. Older people. And the UFC was going to replace it, all that it. And it was pretty much everybody bought into it because boxing could only be seen really on Showtime or HBO. And you had to pay $15 a month and so forth.

And those platforms skewed old. Yeah. and those platforms skewed old. Once we got with ESPN and opened it up to everybody, we skew so young. In other words, I think the biggest number of viewers that we have are 18 to 49. Really young. Probably 60% of the viewers are in that demographic. And you knew this all the time, but the Latino community is a goldmine for this.

Latino community, the African-American community. I knew that, that young people were interested. And they like to watch, they'll watch in groups, they'll have little parties. It's a good, easy sport to follow. And it's a sport around the world. I don't know why we lost sight of that for a few years. That was weird.

We all got greedy. And the premium networks were paying so much money. And the regular networks, ESPN, Fox, they couldn't compete. They couldn't compete. Why do you think boxing has escaped? Like in football, they talk about concussions and safety all the time. And in boxing, the goal is to punch somebody until they fall down because i think in boxing we have really good uh uh safety rules that we didn't have before look any kind of contact sport is going to be dangerous there's no question about it but i think they've done in boxing a really good job making it safer.

It's still not safe. Well, no contact sport is going to be safe. Yeah. You know, they talk about soccer being safe. Headers. Well, it's not really safe. If everybody is using their head to bang the ball, particularly younger people, there is now medical, a word now, that younger people who use their heads when they play soccer, because you're allowed to hit the ball with your head. My daughter plays.

I think about it all the time. You know, really are in some danger. But in any event, I think boxing is safer. They do a good job. Testing goes on all the time. And we've lowered the incidence of bad things happening. That's the best you can do. I think they're trying to do the same thing in football.

Yeah. But you you got these monsters hitting each other going 20 miles an hour you're gonna you're gonna get you you have to get injuries now unfortunately uh that's the that's that's that's the situation now you know one thing that's happening in boxing is now that more people are watching it on networks like ESPN, some of these kids are better or equal to the greats that we've seen before. somebody like one of our fighters, Terrence Crawford, who's a sensational fighter, and he is the equal, if not better, than Sugar Ray Leonard. I mean, really is. His skill set- But you know how this stuff goes, though. What?

I mean, one of the reasons Leonard was so great was he had other great people to fight at a great point in his career. Yeah, but again, it was a great point in his career. So Crawford needs his version of the reasons Leonard was so great was he had other great people to fight at a great point in his career. Yeah, but again, it was a great point in his career. So Crawford needs his version of the Hearns. Right, well, he's going to fight Amir Khan. That's a good start. Amir Khan is not a bad fighter. He's going to beat Amir Khan, though.

Well, only by bigger guys. Who's going to be his Hearns? What? Who's going to be his Hearns? Maybe Spence, if spence doesn't go up and wait yeah yeah hopefully uh but we'll see we'll see there's a lot of greatest in european guys coming up now they these guys can fight anybody is this cavaliscus from uh from lithuania, there's Besputin from Russia. Those are two good, good welterweights.

There's a guy in Spain now who's like 28. No, Larraga, who can compete with any welterweight. So there's going to be these really good, good matches. And then if you say, well, Eastern European, can they really fight like the Americans? Yes. The answer is that they can be better. Look what's happening in basketball. They're meaner. Look what's happening in basketball. Look how many of these Eastern European kids are excelling. Which fighter, which fighter isn't with top rank that you wish you had

who's your number of draft pick well who's the one you're the most jealous of well i would like to have spence i think that he's he's terrific all right suspense if you're listening what spence if you're listening bob arum enjoys your work well yeah but i don't want to interfere with anybody's contract sp Spence is a really good fighter. Yeah. You know, and there are other fighters that are, you know, Canelo is a good fighter. Very good fighter. Golovkin is a good fighter.

I actually feel like Canelo has improved. He has improved. I always felt like, I mean, he might have gotten the big fight a little too early in his career, but I always felt like he was like one, two, one, two. But now he's actually puts together combinations and stuff. He has good trainers. Yeah. And so good that one of our major fighters, Oscar Valdez,

the featherweight champion, went over and he's now being trained by the same people that train Canelo, and he'll be fighting in Dallas on ESPN on the 2nd of February, the night before the Super Bowl. Oh. And that's an interesting dynamic. You're going to see something that's really unique. There are going to be two fights on ESPN,

a lightweight championship with Comey. The winner of that fight will fight Lomachenko in April. And Oscar Valdez defending his title. And that'll be on ESPN, regular ESPN. And that will lead to ESPN Plus with Tiafema Lopez

and then the light heavyweight clash, Kovalev against Alvarez. So that's the UFC move where they have the free fight that is basically the lead into the paperweight. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. You always hear about boxing. These guys get left no money, little money, and everybody blames the promoters and the people around them,

and they took it. Obviously, you're one of the signature promoters. Do you feel like, as you look back at your career, and it's been incredible, do you look back at some of the fighters you've had and think, shit, I wish I had done this, I wish I had done that, this is unfair, it's an unfair sport? How do you reconcile all that stuff?

All you can do is pay a fighter fairly and counsel them that this isn't going to last a long time. Athletes die young. Their career is relatively short. You think it's a 20-year prime and it might be five. Exactly. So you counsel them to save their money. Now, a lot of them don't have that ability and they want to enjoy themselves.

That's not only boxers. That's football players, basketball players. They piss money away, a lot of them. That's terrible. Now, you try to work with them. You try to help but for every like terence crawford who's from the midwest who saves his money and i mean we were over in england promoting his fight with amir khan you know because we're going to do pay-per-view in england and he bought some stuff in england And in England, if you buy things in a store, they charge you the VAT.

But you go to the airport, you can get a refund. So his VAT was $20. And he's chasing around the airport. He's making almost $5 million for the fight. And he's chasing around the airport looking for his $20 VAT. I mean, that shows pretty good. Ali wasn't doing that in the mid-70s. Ali wouldn't do it, but Marvin did it.

Yeah. Hagler was very cautious with the money. So was Ray. Ray has a lot of money today. So, because this, we did, when I was at ESPN, we did a documentary called Broke about why athletes go broke. And I actually think it became a really instructive documentary for some of the younger guys watching it. And there's some things I would change about it, but for the most part, the education of these guys, the NBA is the

best at this right now. When these guys come in the league, they have courses, they explain to them, here's how long your career is if you make this here's what the taxes come out and try to lay it out we didn't have this in the 60s 70s correct but again a real the real problem even more than the pissing money away on getting uh uh a rolls royce a bent Bentley when a regular car could do is that a lot of them are attractive and the women are attracted to them. And a lot of them don't take precautions when they have sex and therefore have so many children and every child that's born, they're responsible for, and they have to pay child support. And the courts, when they determine what the child support should be, looks at what

they're making at the time. And therefore, these athletes are building themselves. They're getting ready for destruction because when they stop making this money, it's very, very difficult to go back to the court and say, I can't afford. And then the other lawyer on the other side saying, I don't believe you. Right. And I mean, look at Evander Holyfield. Yeah. Evander wasn't that big a spender, but he had so many children that he's paying child support for that he went broke.

Entourages are another big problem, it seems like. Entourages. Well, entourages is a problem. Having like 15, 16 people that you're taking care of for three months. But that you can deal with- You can at least cut down. In these lectures that the leagues give these kids yeah that you can tell them also you can tell them you can't get the most expensive house you get a nice

house and so forth but nobody is telling them stop having kids at a wedlock let's take a break talk about state farm over 19 000 agents across the country stop having kids at a wedlock. Let's take a break, talk about State Farm. Over 19,000 agents across the country. 19,000, huge number. But it's not really about the number. It's about having a real person who's nearby, someone you can talk to and get personalized help protecting what matters most.

Speaking of State Farm, they're the presenting sponsors of my MBA trade value guide. Put up 2.0 a little bit earlier in the month. I'd already changed a couple of things. It is live on theringer.com right now. Go check it out at The Ringer and see my definitive ranking for February of all the most important NBA assets. It's interesting. I did it right before the trade deadline and then a couple of trades happened. Made me question where I put a couple of the people.

Jason Tatum might be climbing. Anthony Davis might be dropping. The Lakers couldn't even get him. I had him, I think I dropped him to three. Who knows? I'm probably going to do a blown out version of this in March with some writing about some of the different players.

So check that out. Combining the purchase of your home and auto insurance, remember, is easy with the help of a real life State Farm agent. Go to statefarm.com slash agent to find an agent today. That is go to statefarm.com slash agent. Find your agent today. Back to Bob Barron. Could you tell the Snake Canyon story?

Snake River Canyon? Snake River Canyon. That was one of my promotions that I'm least proud of. Evil Knievel during his apex. He was like, nobody would believe this now but i felt like when i was a kid he was as big as ali for like two years yeah right he really felt like he was as famous as and as important i know he wasn't but he had the ideal toy company yeah that was making money on the the evil kenevil motorcycle and the coolest dude you want when you were a

little kid you wanted to be evilvel Knievel, period. Well, what happened was, it's sort of interesting, is Vince McMahon Sr., the father of Vince Jr., who is the head of the world wrestling. Yeah. Better. Fathers asked me if I could take on his son, Vince Jr. To teach him about the promotion business.

Oh, interesting. And so Vince came to see me, but Vince wasn't ready to be taught. Vince had a great idea. He had met this evil Knievel who jumped over cars and buses and was going to jump the Snake River Canyon. And he said, we got to be involved in it. At first resisted, but Vince contacted ABC, and ABC had done tremendous numbers with Knievel jumping over trucks and buses and cars.

It was amazing. And ABC let me know that if I did that fight, I did that event with Evil Knievel, I could expect more dates on television for boxing. So I signed on, and it was a disaster from beginning to end because when I was taken to that site and I saw the little thing, they call it a spacecraft. It was like a tunable trolley. It looked like a rocket almost.

Like a rocket crossed with a bicycle. And to go over the water at the Snake River Canyon, to go on the other side, I mean, it was crazy. The whole thing was nuts. And besides the craziest was Knievel. This guy was a total and complete madman. I mean, I remember we went on a tour. Went on a tour of the country to start up interest in the thing. And I remember once we were at this state of this motel that was near

an army base. And it was a weekend and the soldiers with their girlfriends were in the swimming pool. And he comes out like a lunatic on the terrace. Shut up, shut up. I'm trying to go to sleep. And of course they continue having fun in the pool, right? He takes a gun and shoots the gun into the pool. Oh, my God. I mean, absolutely, totally, there wasn't any way you could control. I had been around Ali and his people and some really dicey sort of people in boxing. I had never seen anything like Knievel.

And of course, before long, Vince showing how smart he was, bailed out of the whole thing. Right. He said, get me out of here. And left me with it. So now we get to the site. And we stayed at this hotel and really motels. And Snake River Canyon is right near Twin Falls, Idaho.

And Twin Falls, Idaho is pretty well a Mormon place, right? And when the Mormon women, it's hard to believe when the mormon women found out what was happening all this action they've come from twin fall they started coming to the site and they had these writers who were like nerdy sort of guys, right? And these great looking Mormon women were throwing themselves at the guys. So the word spread. We ended up, I think, with 10 Pulitzer Prize writers covering this event. And we brought in, I mean. Every writer worth his bones is somehow going down there.

And every writer now is writing how what a tremendous event because they're having sex with all these great women i mean what the hell oh that was that was sometime brought in evil he takes off and and he no no no no so now now Now, Knievel is, the night before the jump, he wants to go back to Butte, Montana, where he came from. And we have a plane taking him to Twin Falls and a helicopter taking him to the site. The night before, the concessionaires, remember, these people have got cars and so concessionaires raised the price of beer from $2 to $3, something like that. Resistance, they objected the people, the unwashed objected, and they started looting the place and threatening to burn down the site. And I had people ready to attack him. I called the governor.

The governor says, OK, we'll send in the National Guard. But then there's no jump. I said, no, forget about it. Finally, it calms down because they break in and they're drinking all that beer. They all got drunk and quiet, right? They went to sleep. And the guys who were running the site for me,

I said, we got to have security here. They said, right. So where am I going to get security? So we made a deal with the Hells Angels to come and to police the site, right? And I said, how much are you going to charge? They said, no, for Brother Evil, free, and as long as you feed us. they said no for brother evil free and as long as you feed us so yeah i had to give him breakfast and so then the the idiot kenevil calls he said i'm on a plane i'm coming over and coming to and for but i'm not to jump unless you honor two requests. I said, what are the requests?

Well, the first request was that he want me to take all the press to where the helicopter is going to land. So he's going to speak. He's going to die and all that stuff. I said, I can't move people here. I'm afraid there'll be a total riot so he i said but uh but but we'll bring you to the site and you can address the press okay he bought i said what's the second i have two young kids seven and nine he says i want you to bring your two sons to the trailer, and I want to talk to them before the jump. Okay, no problem.

Okay. Comes over. I take my two kids and bring them to the trailer, and he starts it. He says, tomorrow, your father will be the most unpopular man in the world, because I'm going to die, and they're going to blame him, your father. Oh my God. But I want you to know that this was not your father's idea.

This was my idea. My kids are crying. And so he says, I'm just to show you how much I appreciate your father. I appreciate you two kids. I want you to sit with your kids, to sit with my family at the jump. Now, I got two smart little Jewish kids. They ain't going to sit with his family. If he's going to die, right, they go next, right? So finally, I convince him, no, don't worry, and so forth.

Sit with them, and I go in the truck. So now he's ready. I go up to where the rocket is, and I see him shaking like a madman. I mean, shaking uncontrollably. I said, Evil, calm yourself down everything's gonna be all right no it won't and so forth now the thing i was worried about is if he loses control we had a switch a lever he loses control then we call it the dead man switch when he was supposed to be, when he's over and landing, he pulls that switch and the parachutes come out so he could have a soft land. But he's so nervous.

Anyway, go into the truck. Now the engines roar for the rocket. And he's so scared out of his mind that he lets the lever lose. He pulls the parachute before the parachute comes out before and he barely makes it to the right over to the initial bank of the river he goes into the river right and i run out of the truck television truck to see what's happening and there I see my two little kids running like sons of gods to get away from the family. But he lived. He lived.

Yeah, he lived. He lived. Great for humanity. So the biggest, I can't even imagine what that would have been like in the internet era. Because the jump lasted about five feet. Look, the thing that was interesting, it was so big. We had created, out of this nonsense, something that was so enormous. It was an audience bigger than the Super Bowl now, right?

What we had was President Ford. Nixon had resigned. Yeah. Ford was the president, and he chose that day to pardon Nixon because he felt that news would be lost. That's unbelievable. And his son, Ford's son, President Ford's son, was at the jump. Jesus.

What's your relationship with Don King like now? I mean, you've been linked together for 50 years. We're two old guys, you know. Would you shake hands if you saw him? Of course, of course. Because you would have, there would be famous stories about you guys would co-promote fights, but you wouldn't even acknowledge each other,

and you would have a third person. You would talk to the third person, that person, rather than a, that's not true? That's totally not true. And particularly when we counted the money, we talked to each other a lot. Did you ever have to be separated from him? Was there ever screaming matches? Only once.

Because he's taller than you. Yeah, big, big. He's a big dude. Only once. I did the Leonard Hag leonard haggler fight yeah and that was in 1987 he didn't he wasn't involved he wasn't involved now in 1978 i did in february i did first ali spinks fight yeah spinks upset ali. Second fight in New Orleans where Ali beat Spinks. And I never even ever bothered to go in the ring or anything.

And I look up, this is 1978, September 78, and there's King raising Ali's hand like he had something to do with the fight. He had nothing to do with it. All right, so that goes into the memory bank, right? I remember. Now it's 1987 and Hagler and Lennon have a good, terrific fight. And they announced that Ray won the fight closely. I thought Hagler won, but that's beside the point. And the PR guy from Caesars comes running over to me and he says, Bob, bob bob king is climbing up to go in the ring

so i remembered so i run like mad over to the ring and i said mother f get the hell down no he's going so i pull down i rip his jacket and pull him down mean, because the adrenaline is going. He's twice my size. I pull him down. And as I pull him down, he tries to go at me. Sergeant Pete, who was the head of security, sees a big black guy, comes over to prevent King from trying to physically assault me. And King is yelling.

And we have the David Dinkins Jr. was working the fight, and he has the audio for that. And King is yelling, you call yourself a black man? You taking the part of this Jew against me? So that was the one confrontation that we had. Oh, my God. How did he weasel his way into the Foreman fight? That was very interesting.

Why did you have that fight? On your wall, I see you have Monday, January 28, 1974, where I did the Ali-Fraser second fight in Madison Square Garden. And I had done a whole series of fights for Ali, and I was Ali's promoter. Now, King goes to Herbert Muhammad, who's my good friend and the manager at that point of Ali, and says, I'll pay five and a half million to Ali to fight George Foreman. So Herbert says, what should I do? I said, look, where's he coming up with five and a half? I supposedly offered Foreman, who was the champion, also five and a half. So at that point, that's the equivalent of what now? Like $150 million?

Yeah, like $150 million. It's some crazy number. Crazy number. So I said, get $500,000 from him as a deposit. And he has to come up with letters of credit and so forth for the rest so king scrapes up 500 gives it to ali has no place to go with the fight the numbers were insane he goes over to his partner hank schwartz goes over to england They get a hold of John Daly, who's the head of Hemdale Studios, a little movie studio in England.

And somehow Daly comes up with Mabutu, the crook from Zaire, who puts up money for the fight. Not a great guy. And bails King out. And the first thing they did, the first thing they did when they made the deal was to ban me from the country

i was banned from the country you weren't even allowed to land it was not allowed to go and and and hell i'm a brave guy but i ain't gonna go and argue with them that's amazing i never knew that story what did you get the manila fight you did right right? Manila fight I did yeah King and I did it together yeah God so you still have Hagler-Hearns a smidge over the Manila fight or is it like dead even?

Hagler-Hearns was the most exciting fight that I have ever seen it was three rounds of tremendous action. I'll never forget that first round when... It goes back to the tour. This was the first countrywide tour.

We did 26 cities in two weeks. Oh, God. And these fighters got on each other's nerd in st louis they haggler went after hearns and i'm yelling at them you throw a punch you guys the fight's off you're not going to get paid anyway it was by the time that fight happened these guys hated each other it was mostly Marvin yeah but when they got into the ring there was no boxing yeah they were just looking to knock each other's head off and Tommy was the best puncher of his era and Tommy hit Marvin with a right hand flush that knocked out the same right hand. That knocked out Duran.

That knocked out Duran. Yeah. That knocked out Pepino Cuevas. And Marvin went back, came forward. And for me, that fight was over at that point. I don't feel like anyone is beating Marvin that day in the history of that weight class. I agree with you.

Because I'm with you. Hearns was hitting him basically with a two by four and he's just like laughing and coming forward. His face was busted open. He wasn't laughing. His head was busted open. I mean this was an unbelievable fight. Unbelievable fight. When he knocked out Duran D this was unbelievable fight. Unbelievable fight.

When he knocked out Duran, Duran was out. He was in a practical coma for like a minute. When he knocked Duran out, Tommy, Duran went up in the air and came down. It might be the best knockout

you can find on the internet. It's like just the perfect punch it's the perfect distance it's not the equivalent but as far as look looking a knockout the tiafimo lopez's knockout of his last opponent also the guy goes up in the air oh my god he's down on slow motion right on his face. So the Manoa fight, that was basically like, neither guy, I'm prepared to die today. No, they're right. I'm not losing to you.

I will die if I have to. Ali starts off boxing the pants off of Frazier. The mid rounds, Frazier comes back and he looks like he's going to knock Ali out. And somehow at the end rounds, Ali recovers and beats the hell out of Frazier, closes both of his eyes. And Frazier still wants to come out, but he can't see either. He was blind, totally blind. Yeah. Didn't care. Didn't care.

And it was like, what was it, like 110 degrees? Well, it was in the Arenada Coliseum in Manila. It was indoors, but there was no air conditioning. God. Who remembered how hot it was? The thing I remember, like it was yesterday, is because the fight was in the late morning, right? Because it had to be prime time back in the United States. And coming out of the Arenada Coliseum, which was a dark building at the time, and the sun

was so bright you couldn't see. And it was almost like unreal. Everybody was like, it was like something like we didn't realize what reality was and everything. Everybody was just carried away. And I remember we all went back to the Philippine Village Hotel, and there was a three-day orgy like never before in the history of boxing. Did the fact that you did the Manoa fight carry any weight with Pacquiao when you were trying to sign him? I don't know. I got to know Imelda, who got into trouble then.

Imelda was always a friend of mine. You've had some interesting friends. Yeah. When I came back to she our people called up and i had took her to dinner with another couple and we took pictures together and then she sent uh had the picture frame and she said from muhammad ali to uh paki you were the greatest. Oh, wow.

What was the craziest country you've ever done a fight in? That you were like, I might not get out of here alive. Well. You weren't allowed in Zaire, so that's disqualified. Yeah, I think I did fights during the Soviet Union times. Yeah. In Yugoslavia. It was called Yugoslavia there.

When it was really starting to fall apart. Red Star Stadium in Belgrade. That was pretty crazy. But I never worried about uh getting out i the the the diciest moment that i recall is when i did ali and richard dunn in munich and uh the uh the organizers of the fight came up with the initial money, pay Ali, letters of credit, and so forth. Didn't have enough money to pay for the undercard, so Ali put up the money for the undercard. And you knew that these guys were going to take a tremendous bear. Yeah.

Because they had priced the tickets too high and so forth. And we heard rumors that they were going to bring a suit against me, of all people, on the grounds that I would then be bullied into giving them back some money. Because in Germany, under the legal system, if you're a foreigner and you're sued, they can put you in jail until you put up a bond for what you've been sued for. So it's like an extortion or something. So I got a German lawyer and he said, look, where I counsel you is don't take a plane out of here after the fight.

Take a train and go to Zurich. And then from Zurich, you can fly home. So remember, I'm a Jewish guy. I mean, here was escaping from Germany on a train to go to Zurich, which I did, and flew home from Zurich. But that was the diciest, I think, that I had undergone. Yeah, that's a little frightening. Why are you still doing this at age 87?

I mean, other than that you're a role model for people who are still working hard as they get older and older. But I'm amazed that you're still in the grind after all these years. Because it's not work. You just love it. It's fun. I love to watch fights now. I wasn't a big fight fan when I started, but this is over 50 years afterwards. I love the fights.

I love being around the fighters. I love what I'm doing. And it certainly beats staying home and reading books, you know? How have you stayed so sharp? Is there secrets? Yeah. Do you have like a glass of wine a night? No, every once in a while you smoke a joint.

Kyle, is this your favorite guest we've ever had? It just happened right now, yeah. Well, it's legal, you know, here in California. Well, you've always been an advocate. I'm always been an advocate. I think that- Every once in a while, what does that mean? Like once a week?

No. Once a day? No, not once a day. I never at work because, I mean, it does fight. But, you know, a couple of times a week, yeah, definitely. That's good advice. I like this. Because it takes, for me, I don't know if everybody reacts the same way.

For me, it's relaxation. Yeah. And it somehow stimulates the brain. Okay. Who's the greatest fighter that never was, in your opinion? The greatest fighter. Who's the guy that you always look at and you're like, man, that should have been the guy. Donald Curry.

Donald Curry. Wow. Donald Curry was a welterweight. I like Donald Curry. He was a great, great fighter. And he just went off the, you know, became a businessman, got involved in the business, and never really reached his true talent. So you think he was like a Sugar Ray, Roy Jones Jr. type of talent? Donald Curry was a Sugar Ray, Terrence Crawford kind of talent.

Wow. Would you at this point, I forgot to ask you this, would you have a super heavyweight division? Because these guys have gotten so much bigger. Would you go like 195 to 230 and then 230 and up? They have a cruiserweight division that goes up to 200. That pretty well. But would you have another one from like 200 to

no i don't think 25 i don't think so i don't think so i think you're gonna get uh remember uh wilder who's a big guy yeah uh i think his last fight was at 210 pounds yeah so you know that's That's less than Ali weighed. So I think boxing is good. I think a lot of the heavyweights who are maybe smaller, 6'1", 6'2", not 6'5", and 6'6", can outperform the big guys. I would keep it the way it was. Five judges? No, three judges, because five judges, you might end up with five incompetence rather than three. I'd rather have five. Why?

I think it removes the risk of just having somebody who's a complete schmuck do the 118 to 108 thing that clearly the other guy wanted it gives too much weight to a bad person if you're picking from a pool of schmucks if you go with five you go with three it's going to be the same you think it even be might even be more schmucky with i mean i i don't think five help. I think you do three because you cover then the three sides of the ring. Yeah. And that gives you a good perspective. What celebrity loved boxing the most out of all the famous people?

Who is the most legitimate, famous celebrity boxing fan? Well, Mark Wahlberg is a big, big boxing fan. Okay. Sinatra? Sinatra was a huge fan as a matter of fact uh i uh had a have a friend who ran uh who owned uh uh sun city in south africa in South Africa, and we had arranged, I wanted to do a doubleheader and Sinatra to sing at the end. Oh, I like that. And Mickey Rudin said, you'll never convince Sinatra. So we went up, and we were all staying at the St. Regis,

and we went up, and Sinatra was sort of not really interested and so forth. He said, by the way, who's fighting? And I said, well, one fight was Duran and Davey Moore, and the other fight was Mancini and Kenny Bacchia. He says, Mancini, Ray Mancini. He was in. He was in. And he helped me with the commercial and everything.

Oh, wow. But unfortunately, two weeks before, Mancini broke his shoulder in training. So we called it off. And I did Duran and Davey Moore in Madison Square Garden, which sold out for the first time since Ali and Fraser fought. And Duran upset Davey Moore and made a new career for himself. So it all worked out at that particular point. But Sinatra loved boxing, loved Ray Mancini. He really loved the sport.

So Ali at his absolute peak, it's like Friday night in the hotel, and he decides he likes one of the ladies there. Is there any person who has a better chance to maybe win over this young lady than Muhammad Ali at his peak? Is there a celebrity you've seen who would have been his biggest rival? He had no rival. So if he looks at you it's over yeah but again you have to understand muhammad ali he was so into this black that he wouldn't have sex with any woman that was Caucasian. I remember once I was with him in Mexico,

and we had these women come. Emilio Escarga sent all these women in. I mean, all these great-looking women. And I spent a half hour convincing him that they weren't white. They were Mexican. But after a fight, he'd go up to Ali's suite, and you'd see 25 or more of these women sitting around. Some were gorgeous, some were not. And I would go over and make like numbers in a bakery shop and give them numbers

so ali could call out the number and bring one in to his bedroom after another and i asked him once i said ali you have all these beautiful women what are you doing with these ugly women? He says, because they appreciated more. I mean, great thing. I mean, I never told you the Cleveland Williams story. No. Can I say things? Yeah.

Yeah. So remember, I've been in this business for a very short time. This is back in 1966, when we go back to Houston to fight Cleveland Williams. In the Astrodome. In the Astrodome. And the morning of the fight, Ali calls meam you gotta come down i got a real problem so i come go into his suite i said ali what's the problem he said last night this beautiful fox came in and we were talking and then she asked if she could sit on the bed and finally asked if she could

take her clothes off one thing and she said yeah one thing led to another she said you could put it in but you don't have an orgasm because you know the fighters believed you had an orgasm yeah it hurt you hurt ali said but i couldn't control myself, and I went off. And now I'm going to lose the fight because I've had sex the night before. Yeah. So I thought really quick, you know, asking me what to do. So I told him to call up room service and get 12 raw eggs and drink the egg. And don't screw around with Williams because your strength may be gone.

Yeah. Go and take him out as soon as possible. So he eats the egg and he goes out and he knocks Williams out in the fourth round. And I come in the dressing room after the fight. He embraces me. He says, I owe my career to you. 12 raw eggs.

12 raw eggs. 12 raw eggs. I feel like you have the advantage in the Don King rivalry these days. You really have the upper hand. He's an older man. He's three months old. You're 87! Well, he's three months old. I'm just saying, you're ahead in the scorecards right now.

This was great. Thank you. My pleasure being on. I appreciate it. This was really fun. Thank you very much. All right. That's it for the BS podcast. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Don't forget about the rewatchables.

We have Dave coming up probably Sunday night. So check that out as well. Subscribe if you haven't subscribed already. Check out TheRinger.com for all of our all-star coverage of anything crazy happens in Charlotte. Steph Curry, three-point shootout. Dunk contest, who knows? We'll have it all.

And we'll be back next week in the BS Podcast. Until then. I don't have On the wayside