The Bill Simmons Podcast - Brooklyn Blows Up, Durant’s Next Move, and Free Agency Highlights With Rob Mahoney and Bryan Curtis

Episode Date: July 1, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney to discuss a wild day of NBA free agency, spearheaded by Kevin Durant requesting a trade from the Nets (1:10). They also discuss the Bucks keeping their team intact, Jalen Brunson joining the Knicks, Dejounte Murray to the Hawks, and much more (31:55). Finally, Bill talks with Bryan Curtis about how NBA free agency is covered in the media, battling for “scoops,” and more (57:43). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney and Bryan Curtis Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, day one of free agency. Some stuff happened. A famous person asked for a trade. A famous, not very successful basketball team signed somebody who's never made an all-star team for over $100 million. Things are happening. It's all next.

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Coming up, I'm going to talk to Rob Mahoney from The Ringer about the first day of free agency and Kevin Durant's big trade request and all the other subplots. And then near the end, Brian Curtis is going to join us

and we're going to talk about the media coverage of a day that's turned into one of the signature days on the NBA calendar. It's all coming up. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

Okay, Rob Mahoney is here. We wait until 8 o'clock Pacific time to tape this podcast because we figured some stuff was going to happen. Some stuff happened right away. It was a flurry. You told me, what did you say? It was like drinking a fire hose for about an hour there? It really felt like it, you know? We had like Lou Dort, 87.5 million.

That was when I briefly blacked out. A lot of people re-signing. There was some Supermax stuff. We'll talk about all that. The day started with Kevin Durant officially demanding a trade. It was a day that we could see coming for a few days. I think some people mistakenly felt

like because Kyrie opted in earlier this week that that meant things were fine. To me, that was clearly, clearly a leverage play by him. The only way he could get traded to the Lakers was by opting in. He didn't want to take the mid-level. So I had heard that the KD Nets thing had gone sour really right after the season ended. And Nick Friedle was on ESPN talking about how that was the most unhappy team by far he had ever covered. And it really hit a dark spot.

I think when you get swept, it's usually a sign that something bad is brewing. And especially that team seemed like it kind of let up. And yet, with all that said, Rob, this is a stunning end to this Brooklyn situation. I almost can't remember an NBA parallel to it, to this much investment, this much hype and PR, this much hope, and then it just abruptly ends. They won one playoff series in three years, Rob. Unreal. And we're seeing a couple of kind of unprecedented things colliding at once, right? You got the Nets situation, which on its own is remarkable. You've got Kevin Durant,

one of the best players to ever play the game, who if he goes to another team is going to have this weird stretch of his career that almost no other all-time great has. You know, this isn't a Jordan going to the Wizards when it's all said and done. This isn't, you know, a guy like Charles Barkley going to the Rockets. Like this is smack in the middle of Kevin Durant's prime.

He's one of the best players in the world. He went on this sojourn to a team he wanted to play for and signed up to play for and accomplished basically nothing during that period of time, which I don't know that we have much of a precedent for that. Well, he did accomplish something. He accomplished, he's going to go

down in history as this is going to be one of the weirdest errors that a team has ever had and a player has ever had. Right. You think the first year he's, he's in Brooklyn, they give him this max contract knowing he's not going to play for a year. Right. And then Kyrie gets hurt during the season and basically just checks out. But there was so much trust on the Brooklyn side. They're giving them input on basically everything. Input on players to sign. They throw Kenny Atkinson

under the bus, basically. They bring in Steve Nash, which was Durant's hand-picked person, even though he can deny that. Even though when you look back at the Harden trade, the fact that they put Jared Allen in that trade instead of DeAndre Jordan, their buddy, who, by the way, they signed for, what was it?

Three for 30, four for 40? Because it was their buddy. Yeah. So it really felt like they bent over backwards. But to me, the lesson is you kind of just can't do that in the NBA. I really wonder with some of this between how LeBron and...

There were three more clutch guys signed by the Lakers today. When you hand over your franchise to your best player to that degree, LeBron and like there were three more clutch guys signed by the Lakers today. Just when you hand over your franchise to your best player to that degree, I wonder how many teams are going to do that going forward. Because you look at the other way, the Curry model of just Curry's like, I'm here. I trust you guys. Might be the model going forward or even like Giannis in Milwaukee. It's not Giannis doesn't have the gun out with the bullets, basically daring more, hey, if you don't do this, I might leave. He's just like, all right, I signed here. I kind of

trust you guys. I wonder if that's a model going forward that more and more teams will emulate versus we just have to get stars. We'll just turn over everything to them. I think that's done. I think the reason that path is getting tougher is the timeline is getting so much shorter, right? Before it was you sign your stars to a four-year deal or a three-year deal with an opt-out. You have that period of time to make good. As we're seeing now, Durant's requesting a trade this early into a deal with so many years left on it. Not something you see every day by any means. And we've seen stars of all, really ranging across all levels

from superstar on down to pretty good all-star level player trying to maneuver their way around the league at times and times in their team's developmental cycle that just isn't really conducive to building a champion over a two or three year term in terms of building chemistry, in terms of building continuity. Those things are so much harder. And so I think you're right that

a lot of teams are going to look at that differently. I think the Giannis and Curry examples are great counterpoints. And really, I mean, who else has been successful with a catering to your superstar model in a way that's really gotten them to a championship? I guess you could argue, you know, Kawhi and the Raptors and they were like brief time together. Maybe he had some of that relationship, LeBron, obviously in the bubble and the Lakers winning. But I mean, those are, those are feeling more like fringe cases relative to where the league is right now. Well, LeBron and Cleveland's another good example, right? Those four years where they catered to his every whim until the last season when they just said, screw this, we think you're leaving. We're not trading that lottery pick for you. We're not doing it. But for the most part,

this is something that has changed in the middle of the last decade. I know a lot of people have talked about it, but actually I wrote some stuff down just to try to put it in perspective in my own head. Here was our first team all NBA 2016-17 season. Katie's first year of the Warriors. First team All-NBA. LeBron on Cleveland. Kawhi on San Antonio. Anthony Davis on New Orleans. James Harden in Houston.

And Russell Westbrook in OKC. Wow. Wow. All of them were gone within four years. And then you look at 2017-18, it was LeBron, Durant, Davis, Harden, and Dame. Dame stayed in Portland. That was four years ago. But yeah, I think it's the shorter contracts

and just the amount of leverage the players have. And I know people have mentioned like, well, they're going to fix this in the CBA. Not sure how you fix it. I think you might be able to put in stuff like if you sign a max deal, maybe it's a no trade clause for two years. You're just, those first two years, you're there. There's no way out on either side. They might have to start adding stuff like that. This Durant thing is crazy to me. He just agreed to the extension a year ago. He's got four years

left on his deal. Russell and I have talked about over and over again on this podcast about how the contracts basically don't matter anymore. Everybody can try to get out of a contract. See that today with the Wizards with Bradley Beal. Here's $251 million. You're not one of the best 25 players in the league. And a year from now,

you're probably going to ask to be traded because you got your money. And look, everybody's making a ton of money. I'm not pro players. I'm not pro owners, but I am pro like competitiveness. And I think this really hurts the league when it's just a merry-go-round. And I think one of the reasons the Warriors thing was special and one of the reasons it was just fun to see the Warriors and the Bucks and the Celtics and some of these teams that had actually put some time in was because there was continuity. I think continuity matters. And I don't know. I don't know how they fix it. Do you think they can fix it?

No, I don't. Because I think so much of it is not... It's not in a place where it can be legislated. As you're saying, unless you're creating just unreasonable contract limits, forcing players to be in one place for one time, what you're talking about is just preference. If players need to start signing one-year deals to feel like they have that

freedom or one-plus-ones again with player options like LeBron did for so long in Cleveland, they'll do that. The reason they are willing to sign three- and four-year deals now, these superstar players, is they feel like they can still get where they need to go when they need to go there. I don't really see a way around

that. They will do whatever it takes to get the kind of freedom and power that they feel they deserve. And I think that they rightly deserve. So trying to legislate that stuff, I feel like the league has gotten a lot of trouble in previous CBAs trying to solve problems

that may or may not exist in some ways that may or may not be solvable and creating all of these other repercussions as a result of that, I wouldn't go too far out of your way to try to solve this particular problem because so much of it is just where the league is right now and where these players are right now, what they feel they have the right to do. And I don't have a problem with that. But what it does do is interesting things to a trade market like this. How much are you willing to put on the table for Kevin Durant if you're the Phoenix Suns,

if you're the Miami Heat, if you're one of these other teams, knowing that even though he's under contract, that only means so much? Right. Well, I do wonder, there seems to be a middle ground where everybody can win,

where if you're signing somebody to the Supermax or a Max, maybe for 50% of the time, that person's just on the team. You know, like fantasy leagues have this. Like if you extend, if you're in a dynasty league and you have somebody for four years, that person's just on your team.

I was thinking about just, you mentioned earlier about Durant, like what a bizarre career this has been, right? Like my pantheon has 16 people on it. And you go through and it's like MJ and Russell and Kareem and LeBron and Bird of Magic and Wilt and Duncan and Kobe, Oscar and Jerry, Curry, KD, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses. KD's had, other than Wilt, I think the weirdest career out of all those guys in terms of this guy was unassailably great. And yet his choices over and over again, he's shot himself in his own foot or just either

had bad luck or did something that it seems like he regretted within a year, right? You go back to 2010, he signs the extension with OKC that starts in 2011. Doesn't give himself a player option year five, right? OKC really pushed him. Hey, if you do five years, it's better for us. And then a year later, they trade Harden. 2016 goes to Golden State. I thought that was the right move. I still do. But it seemed like he was completely blindsided by the ramifications of that publicly that he was chasing a title on 73-win team. 2018, he's unhappy in Golden State and starts laying the breadcrumbs that he's going to

leave. 2019, hooks up with Kyrie, who had just torpedoed his situation in Boston, and they decide to set up shop in Brooklyn. 2021 pushes Brooklyn to go all in on the Harden trade. 2021 summer extension, 2022 trade request. That's a lot of action, Rob. Things where it's either he wasn't in control of the situation or made a decision that he regretted pretty soon after. A lot of cases there of chasing after what you think you want or what history or this kind of giant media apparatus

or whatever it is, it has led you to believe you should have for your career or you should chase this or chase that. I think what's tough about this Kyrie situation is it really seemed like he was pairing up with someone that he had bonded with, a friend, someone he saw as a partner in kind of building this thing. And the way everything just spiraled out of control to the point that they only played 44 games together, which is

insane. I was trying to look up kind of comparable duos today of other star tandems that just didn't have a chance. So 44 in three years? In three years, 44 games together. Oh my God. So for contrast, Steve Nash and Kobe Bryant played 48 games together one season. Wow. LeBron and Shaq, 53 games together. And of course, those guys are at different stages

in their careers, but there's just not a lot of precedent for any of this. And it really is kind of unfortunate that, and maybe this is kind of coming to some of the rumors about them still wanting to play together, reportedly just for a team that's not the Nets, which is an extremely tough look, Kyrie and Durant. But to handpick someone to build something with

and then have it go sideways in so many different aspects because of that person's choices and behavior, it's brutal. It's brutal. It's just a brutal turn for a guy who has had, as you mentioned, bad injury luck, bad basketball luck, just has not had some things go his way relative to some other all-time great players.

Yeah, I don't know if I believe that KD and Kyrie still want to play together thing. Because to me, it almost seemed like once Kyrie opted in and once it became clear that he has no other options. nobody wants him. And that's another amazing thing of this. Kyrie, who I think you always hear gets his name thrown around is he's so talented. He's one of the most talented basketball players. That's like, is he? Because if you watch that Celtics net series closely, he really did make a difference, especially in the last three games.

The Celtics were hunting him when he was on defense. Offensively, he really didn't make a difference, especially in the last three games. The Celtics were hunting him when he was on defense. Offensively, he was 15 a game the last three games and couldn't take over anything. And then to say he's unreliable would be the understatement of the year. You have teams every year, there's what, five, six, seven desperate NBA teams. The only one that seems desperate enough to acquire him be the Lakers. And yet they have no way to trade for him. The Nets don't want Westbrook. They're not going to take a problem that they already have and make it worse. If anything, they're probably better off keeping Kyrie,

hoping that he has like a career year and a contract year and trying to trade Durant. I think my question is, do they have to trade Durant? Because he's under contract for four years. Yeah. If there's no deal out there that they love, why do they have to trade him? Why can't they roll this over?

And what do they care? It's the summer anyway. It's not like they have to all see each other in training camp. So maybe they just say, hey, look, we tried. We didn't like anything out there and you're under contract.

And we made a commitment to you. We thought you made a commitment to us and we're good. We're not going to sabotage our team. We don't have any draft picks because of you. So we're keeping you. I feel like that could happen. It definitely could happen. And especially when you start kind of gaming

through this stuff and looking at what are the deals that could possibly be on the table. Who are the all-star level players or better that the Nets could get back? That list is pretty short. There really aren't a lot of teams in position to offer those kinds of trade packages right now. And that's what the Nets need because they basically owe either the pick outright or a pick swap every year from now until 2028. They are not in a position to tank. They have to be competitive. And so then, yeah, is DeAndre Ayton and Mikael Bridges enough and some picks? Is that the kind of thing that's going to move the needle for the Nets for not just this season, but basically their immediate future? Is that going to be what they're going to stake their franchise on? I don't think so. And that's where the rubber

is really hitting the road in terms of Durant flexing his power and wanting to get to a new situation versus, I would think, a collection of offers in terms of just

the most logical contenders who would line up that aren't super clean fits in terms of what they could return for the Nets. I thought it was Phoenix this whole time. It came out today. Allegedly, one of the reporting was that

Phoenix and Miami were the two teams on his wishlist. I love that he has a wishlist when he's got a four-year contract left. But when I really thought Phoenix was going to happen was there was... Somebody was on there on Twitter who had sources who was like, Brooklyn doesn't want Aiton. You know, they're not interested in that. And I think that's out there a little bit. It's like, yeah, Brooklyn's not crazy about Aiton. To me,

this is now we're in the leverage game. It's like, all right, I guess we'll take Aiton, but can we get like one more pick? And one more pick? This is all about the picks now. This is the same thing. We did this dance with Harden and Simmons in February where it's like, ah, stalemate. It's like, are we at a stalemate or is Brooklyn just trying to get a little bit more? They're trying to get Curry. And they're getting Curry.

I think if he does get traded, I think it's going to be Phoenix because Miami as we did two podcasts where I didn't't realize this rule, so I apologize, but they can't have two rookie extension max guys on the same roster, which means Bam cannot be traded for KD or be in a trade for him unless Ben Simmons also gets traded.

Yeah. Which means that, yeah. Could you trade Bam out of bio and Jimmy Butler for Ben Simmons and Kevin Durant? You could. Would Miami want to do that? I don't know.

But that's the kind of trader it would have to be. There's a Zion possibility that I think would be pretty complicated because he's still on a rookie contract. Everybody and their brother is trying to get the Jalen and Daniel Tyson picks thing going, which I'd love to throw my body in front of. There's a Trey Young,

I think, on paper once you get into July 1st that I'm making up right now. I'm not recording. But since they have Murray and if you're Atlanta, if Brooklyn just came to you and was like, hey, what about Trey for KD? What would Atlanta do?

And then the only other one I have would be the AD one. And it's funny that AD, you know, there's an AD Westbrook, KD Kyrie, but I just don't think the Lakers can throw in enough from their end to make that worth it for Brooklyn.

If I'm taking Westbrook back, you better give me some fucking assets for $47 million and some other stuff. KD's better than AD, so they'd be giving up the first and third best players in their trade and taking back an Albatross contract.

And I don't think the Lakers have enough. My point is, I think it's Phoenix and I think that's who, if this happens in the next day or week, that's the team. But do you feel good about that? About, let's say, Aiton?

I mean, I think for the Suns the question is can you keep Bridges out of it somehow that would be the magic you can't so then it's Aiton Bridges Cam Johnson I don't think Cam Johnson's in it I think it's Aiton Bridges a couple picks and a couple

swaps something like that I think that's the trade and if you're Phoenix you're going we have Chris Paul and Devin Booker and Kevin Durant. Durant's got at least five years left. He's aging beautifully. You try not to think about the lower body stuff

and the fact that you went through this with Penny Hardaway and a couple other times in franchise history. And you're just like, we can put any sort of a title team

with those three guys as the foundation. If we keep Cam Johnson, we'll get some role players. We'll flip Jay Crowder or we'll keep him, whatever. If we keep Cam Johnson, we'll get some role players. We'll flip Jay Crowder or we'll keep them, whatever. But we will be able to compete at a really high level for the next couple of years. It also buys you some Chris Paul as he's getting older. Maybe he's not an eight-month-a-year guy anymore. But I think that's the trade. And then can I present

a zag that I think sitting there for somebody, please. Deandre Ayton, Ben Simmons, and Mikhail bridges is a frontline. It's a pretty good defensive team. Great defense. You keep,

you keep Kyrie, you keep Seth Curry, you have Harris, Royce O'Neal coming off the bench. They inexplicably traded for him today, but like, I was like, ah, that's not the worst team in the world.

It's not like that's rock bottom. That's probably like a five or a six seed at worst. And would be really hard to, I don't know, really hard to score against at least. So I don't know. I don't feel like Brooklyn, I don't feel like this is a disaster for them. Because best case scenario,

they just keep KD. Worst case scenario, I do think they'll get somebody for him, right? It's not like they're giving him away. No. They're going to get somebody very good. It's just, are they going to be very good in a way that two years from now, it's still sustaining your franchise and carrying you upward, right? Versus just kind of, like the team you described,

I think that could be a playoff team. That could be certainly a play-in or better team. But if Kyrie leaves, what happens? Where does your shot creation come from? How are you regenerating that star power, that shot creation? Where is that coming from? Because that's kind of the problem

with a Mikael Bridges, DeAndre Ayton-centric package. You're not getting star-type shot creators unless Ayton becomes that. Unless Mikael Bridges really flexes out and becomes a much more high-usage pick-and-roll guy, which he's doing some chops at doing that, but I don't know that I'm betting on him becoming an all-star anytime soon.

There's a fun three-way I was thinking about as I was driving my son home from a football thing today because D'Angelo Russell, another guy who's very available, right? Very, very available. Nets have already had him. And could there be some sort of three-way where Kyrie goes to the Lakers,

Westbrook goes to Minnesota, and Russell and something else goes to the Nets, and then the Nets get picks from the Lakers, and then the Lakers send one pick to Minnesota to take the Westbrook deal. Something like that. But it feels like if it's three problems and the salaries are generally near each other,

we've seen this happen before. While Westbrook, most famously, where it's like, oh, you have a problem. I have a problem too. Wait, the numbers are near each other. But I do wonder if that, maybe that's another way to get rid of Kyrie. I don't think they'd take Westbrook back.

No, nor should they. And that really is where so much of the very complicated constructions that you laid out where it's AD and Westbrook. I don't know. That just doesn't seem very plausible to me. I'm kind of enticed by this Minnesota option. I don't think the Wolves would talk themselves into it. That's a lot of oxygen you're taking away from Anthony Edwards and Carl Towns all of a sudden. Can you imagine Westbrook and Ant-Man together? I kind of like it. I like the thought of Russ in Minnesota for a year. I'm not against it. I would watch the hell out of it. There's no question about that. But if I were Minnesota, would I do it? No. Yeah, probably not. All right, we're going to take a break.

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It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. All right, a couple other things before we get into the whole free agency piece.

The Nets basically have an absentee owner, right? Joe Sy. He's there, but he's not there. He has the money, but there's people running the team. And I wonder, like, is it easier for stuff like this to happen when the ownership situation is a little off-center?

Right? Like if this were, I don't know, one of those teams where the owner's just there all the time and in the middle of it, is that better or worse or does it just not matter? Is this every situation's different? Well, I was told Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant were co-managers of the team.

I mean, that's what Kyrie called us. That's what happens when there's no owner around. Yeah, I don't even know what the ideal ownership situation is anymore because we've seen some franchises work with a non-interventionist owner who is cutting checks, who's putting the right people in charge, who's trusting the right basketball people to make decisions. We've seen that.

We've seen some pretty involved owners, some extremely... I mean, look at the defending champions, some very involved owners in the Warriors. And that works too. So it really depends on the personalities involved. I think there's definitely the wrong way to do it, right? Like there's a level of involvement

that becomes meddlesome. Yeah. I think there's a range of acceptable outcomes as long as you're willing to do the important things, which are splurge in areas that other teams historically cut back, like assistant coaching staff, training staff, training facilities. Those things are important.

Are you willing to pay the tax? Are you willing to stay in the tax and sustain a winner, sustain a contender? That stuff I think matters probably more than any kind of specific ownership type. Which at least he was willing to do. Yeah. There's just been some weird stuff with this team, right? They hired David Levy as the CEO and then he was gone within two months. They just fired another high-ranking executive who was in charge of all the business stuff. Same thing.

The fact that it just felt like KD and Kyrie had unreasonable sway over everything for reasons that remain unclear. Like dating the DeAndre Jordan piece, changing the coach. Everybody talked about how great that Nets culture was and it just got torpedoed. I don't know. It just reminded me a little of the Prokhorov thing where it's like the guys who kind of float in and out of the team who have a much bigger business that really commands most of their attention. I've talked to other people who run teams. They love when the owner is not really concentrated that much on the NBA franchise. The ones that are usually the best at it are usually around and above.

Who is doing it right right now, do you think? Who are the model ownership groups? I would say the Warriors. I think the Bucks, even though they're two owners, I think are big in the business community, but those guys are pretty involved. I think the Celtics would be another one. I think the Grizzlies, I think, have a really good thing going and they've been really smart. I don't know, anybody else? I think Miami would be a great example. Mickey's really hands-off, but I think they have a really good situation that, you know, I can't imagine they would have put up

with this Kyrie thing for that long. Speaking of Kyrie, he just has to go down regardless of how the next few years play out for him as one of the most memorable NBA torpedo guys we ever had. Right? I think he's the defining guy of his generation of, wow, that guy was talented and you wouldn't want to play with him. This hear some platitudes about how talented he is, about the handle, about the shot, whatever.

But they don't really go out of their way to talk about how great an experience it was playing with Kyrie Irving. That's not really a thing that you hear. It's not great. I'm going to withhold comments since I feel like I've been bashing him for three and a half

years on this podcast. But I watched it firsthand. It's so life-sucking to have somebody who's that erratic on your team as one of your best guys. It's just the day in, day out, the ebb and flow of somebody like that. I just think it wears teams down. I think it's one of the reasons they shouldn't have gotten swept by the Celtics. No. Right? To be fair swept by the Celtics. No. Right.

To be fair, an extremely close. Yeah. But there was something, there was a chemistry piece with the Celtics that, and the Nets had the opposite of it. Um, you mentioned KD,

I guess is my last KD piece. Can he really chase a title again? Like this, he worked so hard to not have that be his legacy, right? That all that did was drive his leaving the words and going to Brooklyn decision. She'd be like,

Oh, you think you think I I'm sitting in the backseat of this championship. Watch this. I'm going to create my own thing. Then if he goes and plays with Booker and Chris, aren't we back to square one? Like I don't, I know he won't go to the Lakers and play with LeBron, but if he's joining plays with Booker and Chris, aren't we back to square one? Like, I don't, I know he won't go to the Lakers and play with LeBron,

but if he's joining somebody else's team, aren't we back to square one with this? Like, I can't imagine he's not thinking about that. It's a great question in terms of like, what is Kevin Durant going to find satisfying at this point? You know, like about whether he joins the Suns,

like what, what are the kinds of situations that would be fulfilling to him when he's been very explicit and very vulnerable about how unfulfilling winning the titles with the Warriors were for him personally and how he never felt

the way he thought he was going to feel. I guess maybe it's a little different if you join a team like the Suns and you're pushing them over the hump, a team that hasn't won it. Maybe that's what he could see

as being a differentiating factor, but I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if we get to... Even if he wins another title, if he gets to the end of it and says, this isn't quite what I expected either. That's kind of the reality of chasing this stuff in that way. And it's, again, another big part of the reason why he wanted to build something in Brooklyn

on his terms, to his specifications, to his prescriptions from coach on down in terms of how that team was run and the fact that dissolved the way it did I don't know what is left for him to chase maybe but this so maybe this is by default the last thing left is

you know if nothing else if I can't build something like that at least I'm going to win as much as I can on my way out which is why the Boston scenario makes no sense for him I think weirdly OKC is the best just on paper, most organic move for him, but it'll never happen. But you know what? I left. I became a man. I made hundreds of million dollars in investments. I created this whole 35 Ventures thing. I did everything I wanted to

do off the court. And now I want to go back to where it started and try to bring OKC a title. I think people would respect that. I think the New Orleans piece straight up for Zion would be another fun one, right? I'm going to go to a smaller market. This team's loaded. I am the piece that will push it over the top and do it that way, whether it's for Zion or even Brandon Ingram. But again, would he want to do that? He's been in a big city really since 2016. Would he want to go small? I don't see it.

The tough thing about OKC is if that happened, I think it would be such an echo of LeBron going back to Cleveland. Yeah. Even then it wouldn't be his story. Even then he would kind of be in the shadow of this other thing. You're right. Whether Boston, I think the history of those franchises is

not quite what he would be looking for from a narrative standpoint. OKC, you have this other thing kind of looming over it. Maybe a team like New Orleans or just a young team, again, that doesn't have that same kind of historical footprint. That way, Kevin Durant is the guy

who got you to the place that no other star player could. That would be kind of an ideal situation. But I don't know that teams like New Orleans are really close enough to be a Kevin Durant away. Maybe he's that good that he could push them there, but I'd be a little bit skeptical. As we're talking this out,

I'm becoming more and more convinced he doesn't get traded. It's actually the best move for him not to get traded. The best move for him is if they can figure out a Kyrie thing and the Kyrie to the Lakers smoke is just flying off the handle these days.

And maybe you could talk it into the Westbrook and picks, even if you could flip Westbrook and picks, even if it was, you could flip Westbrook for a second asset, whatever, but just talk Kitty. Like, look, let's play this out.

Let's get to the season. I wonder how toxic and how unhappy it's become. I guess we'll find out, um, some other signings today, just auto blame because we, we've had a bunch of them. Milwaukee kept their team together. And I thought

that's going to get lost in all this. We just spent, what, 30 minutes talking about KD. Milwaukee kept Portis. They kept Matthews. They kept Javon Carter, who I thought they should have played in the Boston series. And then they got Joe Engels, who will be back

mid-season. And I thought that was a great signing for them. I mean, we don't know when he's going to be 100% and if he's going to be 100%. But perfect, perfect, perfect fit for them. Somebody who can play a little point forward for them. Somebody who will fit in defensively. Somebody with a three-point shot.

I can just see him on that team and I was immediately bummed out. I was like, because obviously I'm a Celtic fan. But I was bummed out. What was your reaction to that one? I think, I mean, Ingle's the fit.

You're absolutely right. Super clean. His playmaking for them is going to be so important. Just his ability to connect all of these very static possessions that we see from Milwaukee where we're pulling our hair out.

Like, why aren't you doing something a little more interesting, a little more dynamic? Where's the movement to this offense? It's so much like a Giannis driving kick to one guy or maybe there's a swing and a shot. Now all of a sudden you have Ingles

who hopefully coming back from the injury is as mobile as he was and is able to create as much as he did. I think that could do a lot for them. But I think ultimately you're right. The main message of Milwaukee's moves for the day is we feel pretty good about where we are, that our playoff loss was more a function

of Chris Middleton being injured than anything endemic to our roster. And they're right. And they're right. I think they're right to think that. But it's also kind of a league-wide trend where Durant was this seismic moment. And I think a lot of the league

is still reeling from that because the deals that went through today And I think a lot of the league is still reeling from that because the deals that went through today, it was a lot of players resigning. It was a lot of business culminating that kind of business, especially on the higher end of the salary scale. We didn't really see a lot of big money players other than Jalen Brunson change teams. Yeah, we had three super maxes. Booker, not a surprise. Four for 214. Jokic, five for 264. Way too high. No, I'm kidding.

And then Bradley Beal, five for 251. That's just the yikes. If you have Wizards fans in your life, I would not send them a text of congratulations on that one. Then we have, Simon's got what, four for 100. Seemed a little on the high side in my opinion.

Not a lot of options there if you're Portland though. No. No. It's just pretty high. Brunson four for 104 to the Knicks

which I'm more bullish on than most. I just think I value him. I know for a fact he could be one of the best three guys on a conference finals team because we just saw it

and they didn't have to overpay for him. I think for AHC, it's a 20% sticker tax. So he's a $20 million player that's paying 25, but you were good with that number, right? For the most part. I don't really mind it. I don't really mind it. I don't mind the fit. Again, Jason or Jalen Brunson is super flexible within roles of teams. So what I like for the Knicks is he's going to help them right now as a guy who can run their offense. He's going to help them as they evolve over the next couple of years and kind of fitting into the gaps

between RJ Barrett and whoever it is they bring in if Julius Randle is there or not. I think he's one of those players who makes sense for a lot of different permutations for their future. So I really like it from that perspective. Plus, can he play with Donovan Mitchell? I think he can.

Defensively, maybe can. Defensively, maybe not. Defensively, a little tough, but... Don't love that. That's where you're going to be anyway. I like him and R.J. Barrett together, to be honest. I think it could work. Philly, they're just basically putting together the 2018 Rockets again with Embiid instead of Chris

Paul. P.J. Tucker, Daniel House, Tucker, 3 for 33, all guaranteed. I tweeted this earlier today because I was just fascinated. He's going to be 38 in March. How many guys have played 20 plus minutes a game in the playoffs and played 12

playoff games? And the answer was five people. And it was Kareem and Karl Malone and Ray Allen and Reggie Miller and one other person, all like great players at the Twilight of his career. He would easily be the worst player that ever did this. And the fact that they went three years with him, I was stunned by, like to me, you could tell me he has one year left, maybe two, I'd be honestly surprised. Three, he's going to be doing this at age 40? I don't see

it. So it felt a little desperate to me on the Philly side. Yeah, the third year is going to be tough. And I think what's tough for Tucker is there's not a lot of margin for error there in terms of his regression. If he loses an eighth of a step, the bottom falls out

really fast. There's just not a lot of offense to his game at this point. But I've also never seen anyone his age ever have the kind of defensive run that he had in the playoffs in terms of guarding the best guys on the floor doggedly full court. Yeah. Like full contact full physicality. Maybe

he's just a different guy. Maybe he's just something we've never seen before. Well, it seems like they're going to trade Tybalt because he was in all these rumors. But if they manage to keep him somehow and you put him with Tucker, I don't know. I wouldn't be so anxious to trade Tybalt just because he didn't get vaccinated.

I don't think that's... There better be... You need at least one more reason. Miami brought back Oladipo and Dedman. OKC did the 5 for 87 for Dort, where they basically, they did it baseball style. They took care of them a year early.

I really liked Dort. I was surprised they even went that high for him, but I think it's right around the price, right? Norman Powell got five for 90 last year. It's right around that price for the, like Robinson got 17 million a year. So that's about what you're looking for, for like a really good swing guy who's not an all-star. So I was

okay. You were okay with that, right? Yeah. I think you pay a little bit of a premium for these guys who are really good on one side of the ball and a question mark on the other, especially when they're this young. You were obviously betting on him to be so solid defensively that any upside on offense... It's kind of the opposite of the Duncan Robinson situation, right? I don't mind making that gamble. Certainly if you're a team in OKC's position who... What is that money going to

if not projects like this? This is what you're building for. Yeah. And I think he's super tradable too. I think the really high D, 3 and D guys you can know is if, if you decide to cool off on them, there's always a place. Toronto kept Boucher for three for 35. The Clippers kept Batum for two for 22, but it looks like they're going to let Isaiah Hartenstein go. And that was one of the guys I really liked. I made my free agent list

of like guys I hope the Celtics could potentially get. He's on it. I don't think they'll get them, but I think he's going to get like three for 27, three for 28, probably maybe even three for 30. The Clipper games I went to, I was so impressed by him in person. He's just, he's just doing stuff. He's up to stuff. He's unafraid. He's the type of guy who could be in a playoff series playing 20 to 25 minutes I feel like and I'm interested to see where he goes are you in the

Hartenstein clan or no? Absolutely but I do think he has a landing spot I think it was reported he was going to the Knicks to be their new backup Really?

It was lower than I thought I think it was something like two years 16 million something like that for Isaiah Hartenstein who's Oh wow that's a steal a really good backup big.

And yeah, for New York to get off of the New Orleans-Noel contract, who I like New Orleans-Noel, but to switch from Noel to Hardenstein without missing a beat in a way that opens up space for guys like Brunson, that's a nice bit of business. I have a quick next thing,

but let's take another break. So on the Knicks, they were able to dump Burks and Noel together on Detroit, right? And to me, that brings me back to draft night when they just completely panicked. They start out with the 11th pick. They traded for three non-lottery picks. I didn't like that trade when it happened. I just would have taken Durin. I think he had by far more value than these three non-lottery picks. Then they use one of the lottery picks, non-lottery picks,

to dump the Kemba deal, which is only $8 million. And then you see a couple days later, they're able to dump $19 million of contracts. I just don't like how they played it. I know they're trying to clear some salary cap space for Brunson and somebody else. I just don't like how they played it. I know they're trying to clear some salary cap space for Brunson and somebody else. I get it. But man, I just feel like either I can dump the Kemba thing, I can stretch it. I don't want to use a pick to do that. I'm just taking

Durant. I think he has the most value. I've talked to a couple of Knicks fans in my life, and they were way more apoplectic than I think the whole sequence of events got credit for. It's just like, those are picks that turn into like really great players. That nine to 13 range over and over again yields stars. And Dern was the best big man after the top three. So either take him, take, I know they're not going to take Dang. He's on a different timetable. Maybe take the Santa Clara kid Williams but

AJ Griffin I don't know I don't like taking a prime pick and turning it into like a bunch of quarters so I'm looking back at that with the other stuff they did and that part doesn't add up to me do you see the same thing or no? I see a team that I think must

have been a little scared about the cap space drying up before they could flip Kemba or whoever they needed to salary dump into those spots. Oh, like premature acapulation? Let's coin that one. But I mean, there were so few teams with cap space this year. I could see them looking at that market

and getting, you know, if they were so sure that Brunson was their guy, and this is a guy who will actually come sign with them, unlike some of the other stars they've kind of fantasized and chased after in the past. So you think they panicked? I think they panicked a little bit, or at least moved a little bit early,

and as you're saying, sacrificed a little bit of that draft capital to do it. I had a Knicks fan friend of mine was saying how OKC is like, here are these three first round picks. You're on the clock. You have three minutes to make a decision, right? If you're doing this correctly, you have this list of every OKC pick

and you probably have them ranked from one through 20. What picks have the most value? They probably got the three worst OKC picks that OKC had, right? They didn't get one unprotected anything. All of them had some sort of ceiling that ended before the lottery.

And I just hated it. Speaking of Detroit, they re-signed Bagley for three years 37. That was a surprising number. Was not ready for that. Wow. I thought that was going to be like a one for eight. I like Bagley.

I liked how he looked on the Detroit thing. But that's like, you're like all in on the guy at that point. I thought that was really high. And for a team that's got some bigs now, you know, it's not like there's some huge hole they're trying to fill.

They have some options. I like Bagley there as, you know, as a project, as a reclamation option. And he showed some good stuff, but for that number, I'm not so sure.

Yeah, I don't know if he showed that much good stuff. But this is the range. One for 10, I would have been like he showed that much good stuff. But this is the range of questions. One for 10, I would have been like, great. But yeah, 337. And Gary Harris was right in that range too in terms of deals I didn't quite understand. Gary Harris, two for 26 going back to the magic.

And then with Mo Bamba, two for 21. So they went two years for $47 million for two guys that we know are not starters. And the only thing with this, one of the tough things with this day is it might be one with an option, right? Yeah. And we never find that out until a couple of days later, especially last year with the Knicks. It was like, oh my God, they did three years for this guy and then it turned out it was two. But still, who are they competing against with Gary Harris?

Great question. Two for 26. I didn't like that at all. My guy Malik Monk went to Sacramento for two for 19. I'm so excited. Malik and I are back. We were on a hiatus. We were on a hiatus for a year when we went to Lakers. I rented out my house on Monk Island and now I'm back. Now I get to move back in. Might get a satellite dish. I don't know. Might open a little tiki bar in the back. Perfect team for him, though. Is it? Come in.

Come in and be our heat check guy. Just come in. Score some buckets for us. Come off the bench. Go nuts, buddy. Yeah, I actually like the fit for him. You don't? I don't mind it.

You know, again, Malik Monk's just one of these guys who your mileage will obviously vary on how much that guy impacts winning and on a team that already has so much to sort out in terms of what its offense is going to look like and finding space

for all these different guards. Like, I love him as a shooter. I love some of the creation that he gives them. I don't know. It's fine. I'm not against it,

but I'm happy for you and that you're, you know, the property values are going up on Monk Island, certainly. Wow, you were really lukewarm on that one. Now I'm upset. I don't know if I'm going to build a tiki bar now. The Mavericks rebounded from Brunson. They signed JaVale for three for 20.

I think he's the new Benjamin Button. He gets older and he becomes more valuable. There was a five-year stretch where he was not valuable at all and now his value is slowly coming back to the point that Dallas used their mid-level on him I was surprised by that but you know he'll play for them and they need him the mid-level isn't going for

I think what it used to and this is just the taxpayer mid-level so this isn't the full boat but when the mid-level is getting you JaVale who I think was a good big apparently according to Tim McMahon intends to start that's his assumption coming in is that he's going to start for the Mavs

I guess next to Christian Wood at the four makes sense like I think that could work out for them you certainly like the lob options there but Lonnie Walker was another mid-level guy at the taxpayer MLE that's like... Can we talk about that one? Sure.

I thought... Look, I can't stay in the Lakers, so I'm always excited when they make mistakes. We spend the last two months hearing that they're going to emphasize defense. They want to find

some two-way wings. They realize that they can't be this porous defensively like they were last year. They signed three free agents. All of them are clutch guys. I think they're up to like 17 clutch guys in five years or 13. It's the numbers at least 13. But Lonnie Walker is exactly, exactly the type of guy you wouldn't want to sign if you're the Lakers.

This is not a two-way wing. I don't see it. I can't believe that's your mid-level. They had one mid-level. It's not like this team has a shitload of options. I thought that was the worst of all the mid-level signings. I think when we rank all the mid-level guys at the end of free agency, he'll be one of the three worst players

who got the mid-level, I think. I could see it. And you're right. Not only is he not a two-way guy, I'm not really sold on either way. I've never been really that high. Me neither. I've never been that high on his offense. But I do want to start the clock now

on Juan Toscano Anderson, also signed with the Lakers. I want to start the clock on how long until LeBron adopts Juan Toscano Anderson as his Chetty Osmond of the Lakers. His new favorite teammate. I can already see it happening.

It's just a matter of time. By the way, he got a way smaller deal than Lonnie Walker. And if you just told me they signed those two guys and one of them got the mid-level, I think I would have believed Toscano Anderson before Lonnie Walker.

Like Lonnie Walker, the Spurs over and over again were like, is this guy good? Let's throw him out again. And then he would play. They would try to start him for a few games. He had a couple of heat check games. He's only 23.

But to me, this is like exactly the kind of guy that I wouldn't have wanted if I was Lakers. I'm trying to win a title next year. I want like proven dudes who can play defense. That's where I'm starting. Even if it's Joe Ingles and I can't get him until the All-star break, I'd much rather have that. So I thought that was bad. Um, Memphis, they bring back Tyus Jones for two for 30, which I was surprised. I actually thought they were going to let him go, but they lose slow-mo to Minnesota, who I think is our day one winner, just because most of these guys re-signed. Slow-mo

is perfect. Perfect for Minnesota. And they kept Prince, too. So, the foundation is there, but they need to figure out the Russell piece. But did you like Anderson as much as I did to Minnesota? I like that fit a lot. And we get our first

defection in the Timberwolves-Grizzlies-Budding rivalry. Right. Not to be discounted, but I really like the fit there a lot. Slo Mo is a guy of, he's such a particular taste as a player. You really have to have the right infrastructure for him, but someone like Towns next to him

is just a perfect fit. I really like what he could give them in terms of some of the connective tissue, where I feel like that's a team that's always in need of a little bit more playmaking. And I'm hoping Anthony Edwards gets over the hump. I don't think D'Angelo Russell has the burst that they need to kind of be a playmaking hub for them in the way that they need all the time. But Anderson is going to help with a lot of that stuff, just facilitating for them. I wonder if there's a Russell Conley Clarkson

some sort of two for one with some other stuff in it looming. Because Conley's got I think two years left. Russell's in expiring. Utah's another one. We didn't talk about them but the breadcrumbs are being dropped for a blow it up by Utah.

They haven't come out and said it yet but they trade Royce O'Neal for a pick. They lost Ingles. And really a blow it up for them is just a Mitchell trade and a Gobert trade and trade Bogdanovich to somebody's giant trade exception

all of a sudden. You know, because like San Antonio threw their hat in the ring with the Murray trade, which we didn't talk about. They threw their hat in the Wumbanyama sweepstakes, the nada for Yama, whatever you want to call it. There's going to be a couple of wildcard teams in that. I wouldn't count out Utah on that one if they just said, fuck it, and started trading guys left and right. I'm monitoring the Utah thing. Could you see them blowing it up? What do you see?

I think there's ways in which they only half blow it up that still lead them to be pretty bad next season. If they only trade Gobert but keep Mitchell, I don't know that that's a sure playoff team. Then maybe they get to the point where they're in January, February, and Mitchell has a minor injury and they stretch it out a little bit to drop a little bit in the standings because that's a sure playoff team. And so then maybe they get to the point where they're in January, February, and Mitchell has a minor injury

and they stretch it out a little bit to drop a little bit in the standings because that's ultimately what's more healthy for them as a franchise. So I think there are ways in which they could be not great that don't even involve trading both of those guys.

Yeah, we'll see. There's going to be some wildcard tank-a-palooza team that we don't see it. Chicago signed Drummond. They didn't really do that much. Now it's almost 9 o'clock. Two teams have sat this out so far.

Boston, Golden State. Boston's going to do something. They're getting a wing. I almost feel like they're waiting for the market to come to get. They've been linked to Gallinari.

They've been linked to TJ Warren. There's a world where they might be able to get both. There's a Kevin Herter possibility that I think has been lingering for a while. And then you saw the Murray trade, which will end on the Murray trade. They just have too many wings now, Atlanta, and they're going to be a luxury tax team. A week ago, I was like, if you offered me Kevin Herter for Grant Williams, I would do it because I don't want to pay Grant Williams $13, $14 million a year.

I just value Herter shooting more. I think they could find a Grant Williams replacement to some degree, but what's so much harder to find is a shooter. But now I don't even think it would cost that much. I think there's a way to get Herter without even giving up that much other than like knees spent on a pick, something like that.

I think they're going to have to trade him. His new contract, I think it's four years, 60 million, something like that, kicking in. And I think that's a possibility. But out of all the Atlanta trade pieces now, Colin seems like he's going. And who else would you, who would your money be on if you were like, this is the next Atlanta trade? It's a great question. I think the only guys

who I would bet on to be locked in, obviously you have DeJounte Murray now, you have Trey Young. I think Okongwu is pretty solidly there. And Hunter, I think maybe they'll work out something with an extension for him. Other than that, nothing would surprise me. If you told me Clint Capella

gets traded in a week, would not be shocked by that piece of information. Bogdanovich. Bogdanovich would not be shocked by that. So I think everything else is on the table for them, which leads you to some interesting places with Herter and kind of reimagining what the future of that team looks like. But it's going to be tricky for them to get from

right now, they're really interesting with Murray. I really like that fit. How do they climb the mountain from there? Is there a path to another guy? Does Hunter become kind of your third star in that construction in a way that can make you more of a contender versus just a really interesting playoff team? Well, the fun thing

for the Celts is they could just take Herter and Atlanta could just cut that salary off. So they could get pretty creative with whatever trade that is. I spent a lot of yesterday studying that Murray trade. I just have some lingering questions. Why would the

Spurs trade a 25-year-old? And everybody said eventually went to the same place. This is the new version of tanking, right? You basically chop your leg off and you're like, I can't walk. Oh my God, what's going on? I can't believe I can't walk anymore.

At the same time, I do wonder if the Spurs felt like they were selling high on this. And I don't have a dog in this race. I don't care. But he put up a 21, 8, 9. And everybody's like, oh my God, those stats. Jesus, almost a triple-double.

Didn't we make fun of triple-doubles constantly during the Russell Westbrook era? His team was a play-in team. The biggest game in his career was that play-in game against, was it New Orleans? Yes. And he sucked. And I just wonder if San Antonio is looking at this.

We have two years left with this guy. He's definitely going to leave. We don't want to pay him $40 million a year. Let's cut the bait now. We'll get these picks. We're getting like two really great unprotected picks from Atlanta. It's basically a junior version

of the Drew Holiday trade from a team that is much more volatile. So I actually see it from the San Antonio side. From the Atlanta side, I don't know. I don't know what type of guard can play with Trey Young and still be as good as they were on the old team. I worry about Murray in this situation just not having the ball a lot

and trying to fit into Trey, who I think is kind of a hard guy to play with. As successful as he was two years ago, but he has the ball a lot. And I just wonder, are we going to be in December watching Murray standing off to the side on another possession and be like,

oh man, this is a guy who used to have the ball in his hands all the time, and now he's over there on the side. This isn't awesome. So I don't know. So you liked it more than I did. I just like that pairing. The idea of putting Murray...

If I were trying to think of what kind of guards I would want with Murray, it would be someone like Trey. And vice versa. I think they complement each other really well. But you're right that it's going to take time for Murray in particular to figure out how to do it. Because he is not a guy who can stand in the corner in space

while Trey Young runs pick and roll. It's not really in his skill set. He almost weirdly enough has to be kind of a guard John Collins for them when he doesn't have the ball. And we've seen John Collins have some difficulties in terms of adjusting to the constant fluctuations of that role. I think what makes Murray promising is he's just such a good defender and he's such a good rebounder and such a good athlete for his size. I like that kind of pop that they're going to get from that. But

I'm with you that I think the Spurs probably do see this as selling high. And I think that's deliberate because if you look at San Antonio's recent history, where they really got run aground is they waited too long on Kawhi in particular, on trying to resolve that situation and figure out a way out of it. And as a result, they had to take a trade return that didn't really get them anywhere. This gets them somewhere. I think, you know, if anything,

if you're looking at this from a kind of a global perspective, that's a lot of picks to give up for DeJounte Murray, a fringe all-star who, to your point, I don't think is going to be as prolific, probably not as successful

in terms of box score stats or production as he was in San Antonio and Atlanta. That's just not going to be what his role is. But maybe he can get them over the hump that they need to. He's a great teammate, a great guy to play with, an energizing player. I think they're banking on

some of that stuff to help clean up whatever it is that went wrong for them last year. It would make me nervous if San Antonio was like, yeah, we trade him. In principle, it's like, yeah, we trade him. In principle, it's like, wait, why? $17 million a year. He was an all-star replacement in the all-star game last year. This guy was good. He averaged nearly a triple. Why are you so anxious to trade him? I weirdly, I like to trade more for San Antonio. I don't mind it for Atlanta because basically they turned Gallinari and a

bunch of future stuff that may never amount to anything into a real guy. A guy who is, I don't know, I had him like 34th or 35th on my trade value list. So I like the trade for both teams. I just, I wonder for him, is it the right team for him?

I think it's a fair question. The fit for him will make sense as we're watching him? I think it's a fair question. The fit for him will make sense as we're watching it and how long that's going to take. I thought it was a really fun trade. I was into it. All right, Rob Mahoney, good to see you. Hopefully, we'll have some more fireworks. Thanks for spending Thursday night with us.

Anytime. Thanks, Bill. All right, the ringer's editor-at-large, Brian Curtis, is here. It is one of the great NBA days of the year from a fan media standpoint. And there's some media subplots going on. I felt like we had to bring you in. I sent you the bad signal.

I was like, let's just go here. One of them, this Shams versus Woj and this whole reporting thing that's going on now. And Chris Haynes will get involved there. It's basically Woj against everybody in a lot of ways, but it gets reported like six hours before it actually officially gets reported that Brunson is going to go to Dallas. I mean, go to the Knicks. Like this is happening. It's a wrap. And Woj is just like going, no, no, actually they're going to meet and Dallas has the offer

and this hasn't been decided yet and does that whole thing. And then reports that Jalen Brunson is going to the Knicks for what everybody had said four, five hours ago. We saw this happen with the heart and trade too in February with Windhorse

where Windhorse was like, this is done. It's right on the edge. They're at the finish line and Woj's like, no, they're not. It's right on the edge. They're at the finish line. And Woj's like, no, they're not talking. It hasn't even happened. And then at the last thing, he's like, nope, the trade's happening.

What is going on? How do you interpret this? Is it just like, is this Woj who has such, Adrian Wojnarowski at VSPN, who has such outsized importance on this reporting stuff. And yet sometimes if he doesn't

get the scoop himself, I feel like he actively works against the scoop until he begrudgingly signs off on it. What is happening? Yeah. The meetings, the Brunson meetings were fascinating. Because first of all, you called this like the funniest sweepstakes in NBA free agent history. So when we were going to different meetings, that kind of upped the whole sweepstakes notion. Yeah. I'm going to take some meetings before we make our decision. But they'd already made the decision.

That's what I mean. It got reported, and then the number was the number. So I don't know. What is the song and dance for? Is it just because... Look, I mean, we could go really under the hood here for the listeners,

but is it because Woj is mad that he didn't get the scoop? So he has to get some version of making it seem like this is more dramatic than it really is, and then he says he gets the scoop? Well, I think what's interesting about stories like this is they're different people potentially have a different answer for everybody. So if you're going with, let's say, the people who are running Brunson, they may be saying, oh, we're going to do this. The official story is we're going to do this, and we're going to do this, and then we're going to make a decision.

But let's say you talk to somebody with the Mavericks. They may be saying, he's gone. That's it. He's already told us he's out. We know he's gone. And so I think it kind of depends on who you're getting the information from. So it could be just as simple as door number one, door number two.

I don't know. I still don't have an explanation for what happened with the Harden trade in February where everybody knew that weekend before the trade. Oh yeah, this is happening in some form. They're just hanging out. Curry was the big hold up. And once they figured that out, this is happening in some form. They're just hanging it. Curry was the big hold up. And once they figured that out, then it was a picks thing. Then making it seem like there was all this drama leading up to the trade deadline

when everybody knew the trade had happened. I just don't understand any of this stuff anymore. And I don't understand why the agents are in the tweets. I don't understand this whole infrastructure that we have created with information. And the information is incredibly valuable and Woz just got compensated by ESPN. So did Adam Schefter. But at the same time, once the information is out there, then that's it. Then we can all consume it anyway. And there's such a race to own and disseminate the information. And then ultimately we get, I just don't get a lot of this. It's a game. I mean, it looked, it looked to me like they tied on the Kevin Durant thing today. Did I see that right? Was that it? Was that what they first, the scorecard was a tie? I think it was both at 1149. Oh, if I'm reading this correctly. But you know why this became a big deal. Because we all benefit from this.

Yeah, you're right. We get the pods out of it. We get to have a day of fun. We get the radio shows. We get the ESPN shows. We get the trade shows, all this stuff. We get a day that's like the game shows you and I used to watch in the eighties on Twitter. You know, the price is right. Like, whoa, whoa, look at this. JaVale McGee, three years. Whoa.

Three for 20. And I will say the thing that I think has really made the NBA insider, which has been a thing. What would you say, since like 2013, 2014, somewhere in that range where the whole big Woj bomb offseason. It started when he started blowing up the draft, which was the early 2010s when he started tweeting out the picks before the telecast had the picks. But you could go back to 2010. The decision is the genesis of all this. That was the year it all starts.

Sure, and still start there. The thing that has made these guys is that big players are changing teams. JaVale McGee getting a new contract, that's not going to make anybody a big star. But Kevin Durant demanding a trade, again, Kevin Durant changing teams for the third time. LeBron's done it three times.

Kawhi's done it twice. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of these. Paul George once. Westbrook. Westbrook. Chris Paul. I mean, it's the biggest players in the NBA are changing teams. So it's real stuff, right, that's made whatever this game is, whatever this Twitter thing is, seem really important because the moves are, many of them are actually really important. tact. Because like Shams, who I think has done a lot of good work and he's on his way up and he's definitely been able to go toe to toe with a lot of the stuff with Woj. But the Kyrie stuff was, I thought, kind of embarrassing. Making it seem like Kyrie had all these sign and trade options. He was sifting through them. It came close a couple of times.

Ultimately, Kyrie has decided to go back. And it's like, dude, that guy had no options. His only option, the only thing that was remotely interested in him was the Lakers. And it was for the mid-level exception. And they knew that they couldn't trade Westbrook for him. He went back to the Nets with his tail between his legs. Why can't we just say that? That's what happened. He wanted the 36 million. He knew if he, if he renounced the deal and he became a mid-level free agent, that's the number he was going to get.

He was going to give up $30 million. So he opted in because he was going to force a trade. Why can't we just, why do, why are we treated? Why are the fans treated like they're dumb? Sometimes we know the actual story. Why can't you just say it that way?

And for all people, right? Kyrie Irving. Right. Kyrie. This is the one that we want to make sure his story is told correctly and from the inside point of view of Kyrie Irving. Okay. Sure. Now, I think so. And to me, look, the whole thing of today we're fighting to see who can win by 30 seconds or a minute on something that's going to get announced anyway.

I mean, look, there are big scoops, as you know, on this beat. And there are times when these guys have been way ahead where they put something out. You know, going back to Katie to Golden State, where I was like, wait, what? By the way, I criticized Woj on this podcast and it was as wrong as I've been about anything in the last six years. With that said, if they had won the title in 2016, I still don't think it plays out that way.

I don't think he goes, because I don't think he would have joined a champion. But in February, it seemed inconceivable that he was going to go there. But that was what was great about Woj's reporting. He unearthed this amazing fact. The Warriors were on a way to win this record amount of games, and they were also trying to get Kevin Durant. It seemed impossible. So to me, that's the glory days of this stuff. Yeah. And then there's stuff that's truly mind-bending, where you're like, you told us something we wouldn't have known for a really long time. Today, on a day like this, we're learning things that we would have known in a

minute or 30 seconds. Or if insiders on Twitter didn't exist at all that we would learn in a couple of hours. Okay. You know, that seems pretty small. I wonder the agendas with all this stuff. Okay, so you and I are KD and Rich Kleiman. We want to get it out there that we've requested a trade. So do we text Woj and Shams the information at the exact same time? Do we tell them at 11.49 you can have this? What if you do, oh, let's just give this to Chris Haynes. Like, screw everybody else. We'll take care of our guy Chris.

And now Woj is mad. Now Woj won't play ball with you after that. Like, how does this all work? Do you have any insight for the secret sauce here? I don't, but I imagine it's kind of like that. And I do imagine, I mean, the tie is miraculous to me. 11.49. And again, I'm hoping I'm not reading that wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was exactly at the same moment. So either we're expected to believe they're just frantically typing the tweet at the same time? Is the tweet

written for them ahead of time? It's clearly some of that today, by the way. There was clearly some pre-written tweets because Shams was tweeting like every 20 seconds. Right. So is it like an embargo thing? Like how we have stories embargoed for like Hollywood or like Spotify by some company and the story's fed to somebody or like at eight in the morning, you can run this story. Is that how this works with the tweets now? Having talked to people in this, they definitely have stuff ready before free agents. So they have drafts of tweets. Yes.

Because you have a feeling, right? You talk to the agent. You see where it's going. We know this. What do we always say this time of year? Oh, it's the so-called tampering period. Then we laugh because it all happens in advance. But you talk to the agent.

You have a pretty good sense of where the guy's going to go. So you have that new drafts folder. And as soon as you can pop it, you pop it. Absolutely. But then when there's something really, really revelatory, like the Chris Paul, Suns, COVID, whatever the fuck happened, whether it was Chris Paul or there was somebody else on the team, I have a feeling it was Chris Paul, Suns, COVID, whatever the fuck happened. Whether it was Chris Paul, whether it was somebody else on the team.

I have a feeling it was Chris Paul. But everybody in the league knew about that for two weeks and nobody wanted to talk about it on a podcast or report it or say it. And then finally it came out. But this was the biggest story in the league. And I was at all these games the last couple rounds and everybody is talking about it

and yet it's not out there. So I guess like, why doesn't that get out? Is it because people are afraid to report it because they don't know the facts? Are they doing a favor for somebody? What is the reason that takes two weeks to come out? And not to answer your question with another question, but we feel like this happens in the NBA

more than anywhere else, right? Yeah, because I think they... I don't think the access is as good in the NFL to the talent and to the teams. I don't think you get the same amount of one-on-one time with people. I think there's less movement. Yep.

Especially with the most famous players. Guys just don't really move ever. And in this case, because the NBA has become so transactional, maybe that's a piece of it. Maybe because there's more movement, there's more favor trading and favor swapping. And the players have more power per capita in the NBA. So if what you're talking about is true, you're worried about getting on the wrong side of somebody that's a great source of news,

then that's just going to be much more pronounced in the NBA than it is going to be in the NFL or something like that. I totally see that. The most fascinating reporting trend now has been the information that flows in a nuanced way in a podcast where people mentioning they know about something or they heard this or they're not really reporting this, but it's become the new way to get information. I know I do it. It's a way for me to pass along tidbits that I hear that I'm not, I mean, I'm not a reporter in the way some of these other guys are, but I have passed along

stuff. And if I feel adamant, like I did with the Vegas Seattle thing with the expansion in February, if I'm adamant and I'm like, this is happening, I'm going out on a limb, like I'll make it pretty clear with the setup. But I think one of the most fun things about basketball podcasts specifically is like, I'm hearing this. Well, you know that story. I'm not reporting this, but there is word that blah, blah, blah. And I think people have gotten better and better at how they do that.

So that's been a fun development, I think, right? Yeah. Shoemaker and I were joking about the, I'm not reporting this, but scoop. Right. It's not even a scoop. It's more of like, it's like when the sorbet comes out between courses, it's a palate cleanser. And what's funny is if you talk to fans, they absolutely want to hear 80% true.

Or I kind of think this might happen, Scoops. They will tell you. They will not say, wait until you have this absolutely nailed down. They want to hear I'm not reporting this, but. And you're right. Your Vegas one is a great example, because I remember listening to that when you said that at the time, and Rosillo gets real quiet. And I'm like, oh, Here we go. This is real.

This is real. We had to wait, what? A couple months? Yeah. Before LeBron came out and said his thing? Yeah, look, man. I don't usually throw shit out like that unless I know there's some real smoke and some fire. So Rudy points out

Vegas is now getting some of the best scoops at anybody because we saw the line movement with the DeAndre in Brooklyn last week, where all of a sudden that started moving people to know. And then the Palo to the Orlando Magic, that 48 hours. So I wonder as gambling becomes a bigger factor, it's eventually going to be legal in California, Massachusetts, and it's going to be in most states, I think, within the next year or so. And will people be paying employees for information or how that... But you're starting to see that now. And it's almost like the line movement is becoming the new woosh. And let's take it a step farther.

We're counting down the seconds until one of these guys goes and works for a gambling company. Right. Clearly, Schefter and Woj could have done that if they wanted to. They re-signed with ESPN. Shams is a free agent coming up. Yep. Let me ask you, though.

Does that hurt them, credibility standpoint? Would they get the same info from people if instead of working for ESPN or, or the athletic or whatever, they're just straight working for a gambling company or does that not change anything? I think maybe it doesn't now. I think at one time it would have, and that would have been a stay away for teams and GMs and agents and the kind of people that get news from, I'm not sure people care that much now for this kind of stuff. For journal, for, you know, written journalism, that kind of stuff. Sure. But for trade scoops, signings, I don't know.

I don't think, I think they might not care. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I think for football, it would have the most impact because of the week-to-week bets and somebody being injured, somebody being scratched for a game. It about to come out that somebody has a torn ACL, things like that, where just more people are betting football than any other sport by far. Same thing for college football. I'm amazed there's not. Is there like a Jeff Passan for college football, really? Somebody that has like the most information?

There's a hundred of them. That's the thing. But there's not like a main guy. It's usually like school specific. Yeah. I mean, those are the original Woj bombs where college recruiting and rivals message boards in the late 90s, early 2000s.

And it was exactly, I remember this because I'm a college football University of Texas guy. It was the same phenomenon. You're online in those days, just hitting refresh on your dial-up mode and waiting for crazy recruiting news to happen. It honestly felt exactly like this. Remember college sports before they imploded and blew up and died in 2022? Remember college sports?

Or USC was in the same conference as Rutgers? When guys were signing NIL contracts to play for schools that were worth more than rookie contracts in the NFL. Remember those days? College? Then it all fell apart and then they decided everybody was banned.

There was no more left. Tough timing for you. You got Arch Manning this year. It's like you're ready to roll. Yeah, it's not dead for me yet. You got four years of Arch. We got Arch, baby. Is that the biggest moment in UT history? So I was there in 99 when they signed Chris Sims,

who was also royalty, who was also from New Jersey. I remember somebody asked me on Twitter because I was tweeting about it. Somebody's like, how did you find out that Chris Sims had committed to the Longhorns in 1999? I was like, oh, what an old guy question. I know. I was like, yeah, I felt like grandpa, you know, talking about listening to the flash on the radio. But I think the answer probably was the radio. I would say the radio. So two ways, the 2020 Flash, which was so important and it seems crazy now because it's just been replaced by 19 things. But I remember listening to the radio being like, ah, 2020 Flash is coming up.

I want to find out if there's been any trades or free agent signings. That's one way. And then the other way was the ESPN's ticker. Right? Those were the two ways we got information. For sure. And message boards in the late 90s, I guess. And there was a huge delay because I remember

going back and talking to my roommate. I probably went to class and then came back and told my roommate and he was like, wait, what? Chris Sims? This is wild. Nobody knew. Is it true? In the 90s, there was that. I remember when the Red Sox got Pedro.

And the same thing is like, is this true? Like, you almost need like the second source. Now, everything is instantaneous. Now, we've moved into this world where a player can make a trade request. And that's immediately disseminated across all platforms. And now, we're reacting to it in real time and just going crazy and losing our minds. Yeah, in the 90s,

if you were kind of the super sports fan in your friend group, you were Woj. You were like, I got something, guys. It's a Curtis bomb. Curtis bomb. And now the world's changed so much as I text my uncles who are huge sports fans in their 70s. And they're like, yeah, I already knew that.

And I'm like, wow, you already heard that? I heard that like a minute ago. They're beating me. I remember I had had my old sports guy column probably for maybe five or six months in 1997. And Pedro got traded to the Red Sox and it was in the morning. And I wrote a whole piece about it for my site. And then AOL put it on their main page. It was one of my big traffic moments, right? And it was up the whole day. It was up the whole night. We had a message board attached to it. People were weighing in. And then the next day, six, seven in the morning,

the Boston Globe had their stories about the Pedro thing. And that was when I realized like, oh my God, I'm in the right place. I know my family thinks I'm nuts. Everyone thinks I'm nuts, but like I beat the globe by 17 hours with this, you know?

And it's like, this is, the internet's going to win. Like I could just, it fell into place in my head. I could see it. And now you think like it's so more instantaneous than even that, where it's just like, boom, something happens. It's everywhere. There's podcasts up in an hour, recorded conversations.

I was listening to sports radio today and they're just reading Woj's Twitter feed on the air. Like, okay, let's see what we got. I was driving my son to a football thing today. I was listening to Termini and Eddie, my favorite show on Sirius' NBA show. And the same thing. It was the witching hour came. They came back from break

and Termini just ripped off like 12 things that had happened in a row. It's like signing, signing, signing, boom, re-signing. And he couldn't even keep up. He was basically just reading the Twitter feed as it went. It was amazing. Yeah, it's like the wire machine in the 1960s newsroom.

Like, look at this, you know? Right. Information flowing out. You know what my favorite moment was today? Did you see Stephen A when he got rushed onto TV to talk about the Durant thing and he was wearing a flannel shirt? No! It looked like a flannel shirt.

And I'm like, it was kind of that newsman. You think he's like in Alaska? I don't know. I don't know where he was. But he looked like he was surprised to be on television. Listen, there's only been like seven or eight good things that came out of the pandemic and about a hundred kajillion bad things. But one of them is that our standards for TV have just completely dropped. And it's now okay to just throw Steven. I remember when I worked for ESPN, the sports center would always want me to go on and I would always say no. And they would always be like, oh, Simmons isn't a team player, even though I had five jobs. But part of the reason I said no is like,

I don't want to get dressed up, put on makeup, go into the studio and it's like this whole ordeal. Now it's like, boom, this happened. Let's go to Stephen A. Smith in Alaska in his flannel shirt. PTI, those guys might never meet each other again. Wilbon and Cordyzer. They might never be in the same room again. But the standards for

who is on TV and what it looks like just fell through the fucking basement and nobody cares. Guess what? It's fine. Yeah. I feel like I've seen so many moving cars in the last two years, like people in a car seat driving. Right. Some of those are podcast videos or zoom stuff, but like it, it doesn't matter. And the old days you really did have to put on a suit. Well, it goes back to that story. I always told you about that year when I was doing countdown, when they built the set and they spent a million dollars on it, they were so excited about it. Like, but got to mention the set at the top. And it's like, guess what? Nobody cares. Nobody cares if the set's nice.

Things look great. And there's like a huge video screen in the background. Nobody cares. They just want to listen and watch. That's how you know you're out of ideas. Let's build a set. The set is always a bad idea. Well,

now it's like people are so used to YouTube, TikTok, Zoom videos in a million places. People are used to being on Zooms. People are used used to YouTube, TikTok, Zoom videos in a million places. People are used to being on Zooms. People are used to watching stuff on their phone. They don't care about the quality of the thing. It still matters for sports. I love watching.

One of the best things about being on the West Coast from a sports standpoint, I wouldn't put it in the top 10, but it's top 20, is the Wimbledon in the mornings. I would say Wimbledon, even though I know it's Wimbledon. It's just like stupid speech, a better than thing. But I love waking up and it's just on.

Like I watched the British lady came through today, beat the finalists from last year, came back from 1-0 down, wins the second set tiebreaker. Katie, Katie from Britain. But it was just, you wake up, have coffee, and there's tennis on, and it's just fantastic. But I don't know.

There's so many ways that this stuff is better that when I look back to the situation you were talking about, like 1999, how we found that info, it does feel like a kajillion years ago. Even something like Wimbledon. I used to watch Wimbledon on HBO on tape. Remember? They would show tape-delayed Wimbledon on HBO and they were super excited about it. Same thing for the Olympics. This happened 12 hours ago. Don't look. Don't look at your phone. They could never do that now. Don't listen to sports radio today.

That used to be the big thing. Remember the 2020 flash would come on and be like, turn down your radio. Right. Turn down next 10 seconds. We have an update from the Olympics. Mary Decker has fallen. Sola bud tripped her. Yeah.

These are really strange times. Do we cover everything with basketball media? Any other shots you want to get off no speed round I mean first of all there's going to be so many more days of this

now with the Durant thing you'd think I mean ideally for the ringer and for people like us you want the Durant thing to go on

for the rest of July we'll just get content it would be like the Ben Simmons trade the 8 month Ben Simmons trade it the eight-month Ben Simmons trade. It's great. Just, hey, stuff to talk about. Once KD, once that domino gets played,

it's going to get super quiet. You think so? Well, I think most of the moves will have happened. Yeah. You know? God. Can you imagine Mahoney canceling two vacations because Kevin Durant's going into August 1st?

It's like, sorry, guys. No, it'll be fine. I think the KD thing either stays or goes and it'll be resolved in the next five days. I don't think this goes on and on and on. But as I was saying earlier, it's such a huge story. I mean, you did a pod about this the other day. Like, hey, we know this probably isn't going to happen. Right. Just for fun, let's do KD Trade.

Well, to be fair, we had a pretty decent inkling it could happen. Because we had a lot of intel that him and the Nets were not in great terms. So it was worth it to do the segment. It was also fun to do the segment. And I think that's part of things with pods where it's like, oh, this will be a good segment. When you can combine that with there's some truth in this segment, that's the wheelhouse for us, I think.

So you were doing I'm not reporting this, but? A little bit. I don't think things have been great on the Nets side. Very strange, though. Well, at least you have Arch Manning. Dude, so excited. Texas football is terrible. That's a whole other...

I mean, that's been a decade of awfulness. Do you have a generic college sports take before we go or no? Fall college sports? UCLA and USC being in the big 10 people seem to think this is the official sign of the apocalypse i feel like we're already there yeah i think texas ou to the sec was the was that we're there and it makes it does make me sad because i don't and i'm on the in the group that's one of the quote unquote winners of this whole thing. Yeah. But I liked it. I liked how regional college football was.

Right. It's really fun. And I don't like two conferences. That's not good. Well, when does this just become the NFL where we just have 30 to 32 colleges in their own super league separated by some sort of divisions. And then everybody else is just traditional college. It seems like that's how this eventually ends, right? It really does. And I college football, it's like, is that a bad thing? It's, it's fun. I mean, that's, that's the thing, right? Like if it's, you're telling me like there's some crazy super conference that has Texas, Alabama, Ohio state, Michigan, you know, Clemson. Yeah, that's fun. But the fun of college football

to me, especially being a student was you were coming into these rivalries that were literally a hundred years old. Yeah. I mean, think of how old some of that Celtic stuff feels like it just goes way back and then just double or triple it yeah Celtics Sixers multiplied by three yeah and you were just coming in and you talked to these old timers like oh man I was at UTOU 65 I remember that game you know and I've been to 40 in a row and all this stuff and you just felt like you were part of this really long thing and that everything was the same right like in college football they don't tear down your stadium. It's the same stadium. Now it's been built out a hundred times, but you're in the same field, same stadium, same rivals, same team you hate from across the state.

So for that to get tampered with the way it has been in the last few years, I understand why it's happening. Again, I'm one of the winners, but I don't like it at all. And it speaks to just how badly we needed that running joke I had forever, but how badly we needed a sports czar for some of this stuff, like for boxing, for MMA, even for the golf right now, for college sports. Just kind of need somebody. There's so many kajillion dollars at stake with all these different sports. We kind of need somebody to make sure it's okay.

And now that the gambling's coming into it too, it just feels completely ungoverned and unchecked. Nobody trusts the NCAA either. Just like we don't trust the Olympic Committee. We don't have the fucking World Cup

that's going to be at the end of November. They're playing it in, what is it, guitar? Yeah. I mean, that's going to have the fucking World Cup is going to be at the end of November. They're playing it in was it guitar? Yeah. I mean, that's going to be ludicrous. And it's going to be going against football and basketball. The World Cup should be right now. We should be getting ready for it a week from now. But, you know,

we know why it's not happening that way. Anyway. That's a good pod sometime. Like the top 100 things that GM of Common Sense Sports would have done over the last 20 years? World Cup has to be in July and August, period. Just period. That's when it has to be.

Football did not need to go to 18 weeks in the regular season. It did not. We did not need a longer football season. Basketball should have a shorter season. Baseball, I saw the Don Van Addis thing with Manfred when he was talking about oh, we're probably going to have a pitch

clock. It's like, really? This should have happened 10 years ago. You know? I don't know, Curtis. We're turning into the grumpy old guys. We are, but it'd be a good list, even just like the last 10 years. We should do it. We'll do it for a summer podcast. Rutgers is

not a Big Ten team. Sports are. No. You have to play other West Coast teams. It's just the way it has to be. Texas and OU are not going to the SEC. You could do a bunch of college. You could do a bunch of every one of them.

Well, once the college basketball and the Big East fell apart into the SEC. You could do a bunch in college. You could do a bunch in every one of them. Well, once the college basketball, when the Big East fell apart and the Big East team started to go to the ACC and all that shit, it just felt like I just lost interest in the conferences completely for college basketball. It made no sense after that. We're not playing

17 NFL games. We're not creating an extra playoff team so the freaking Steelers can get in the playoffs last year. Or the Bears the year before. Yeah, we needed to see those teams one more time. Just get smoked in the first round. So that's why I can't be the sports star because I'm looking at it from a gambling premise

and I'm actually signing off. Oh, whoops. Like, wait, one more playoff game I can gamble on? Fine. I would have the extra playoff team, but I think they have to finish nine and eight. I would have no losing record in any sport. If you have a losing record,

you cannot compete to be in a playoff. So you have to go at least 500. That'd be my rule. I think that's a good rule. Win half your games, you get to be in the playoffs. Just half. Every other game. Just pull those off.

All right, Brian Curtis, we can listen to you on the press box. We can read you on theringer.com. Is there, you got something up your sleeve? I do. I've been toying with a few things. I got one long-term thing I need to bring home. So I'm going to, that's going to be my summer project.

Who's going to write the Athletic Sports Staff versus the New York Times Sports Staff? This is getting awkward piece. When's that happening? Well, when they put it on the homepage. They have two different sports staffs under the same umbrella. How does that work? I mean. That's a little weird.

And just the weirdness of the Times Sports section, it's always been different. Yeah. Difference and compliment, I think. Yeah, it is. I'm choosing my words carefully. But now you're like, oh, some of the Times is like, oh, we got stories about what happened yesterday in sports. Let's put these on the homepage.

We have beat reporters for each team? What's going on here? Yeah. Very strange times. All right, Brian Curtis, a pleasure to see you as always. Say hi to our guy Shoemaker. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton.

Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Dylan Berkey as well. Thanks to Rob Mahoney. I will see you on Sunday afternoon on this podcast. We put it up early, so we'll be up Sunday afternoon. See you then.