The Bill Simmons Podcast - Brooklyn Steals New York, Kemba's Next Move, and July NBA Predictions With Marc Stein, Plus Michael K. Williams on Life After Omar | The Bill Simmons Podcast

Episode Date: June 25, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Marc Stein of The New York Times to discuss NBA free agency and how, outside of two guys, no one is really sure where these players will end up. They speculate about landing spots for Kawhi Leonard, Kemba Walker, Al Horford, D'Angelo Russell, Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, and more (2:25). Then Bill calls up his dad to say farewell to Kyrie Irving one last time and briefly discuss the Celtics' draft (1:00:00). Finally, Bill sits down with actor Michael K. Williams to discuss his new limited series on Netflix, 'When They See Us,' based on the true story of the Central Park Five; becoming one of HBO's most iconic characters, Omar Little; plus 'The Night Of,' 'Boardwalk Empire,' New York City gentrification, and much more (1:21:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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All right, good. You can subscribe to Ringer Dish right now on the Ringer Podcast Network. Coming up, we're going to talk to Mark Stein about all the NBA free agency stuff that is in full bloom right now. And then we're going to talk to Michael K. Williams. Oh yeah, Omar is coming. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

All right, we had a member of the Doobie Brothers last week, Michael McDonald. Now they're bass guitarists for many years from the New York Times, Mark Stein. How are you? I'm the least musical person in the world, but I am sick of you. Just doing everything on my bucket list, man. Oh, all the interviews you've always wanted to do? You did Apollo Creed. Yeah.

Which I'm still reeling from, and that was like five years ago. And then I'm listening to this pod, and you get to ask Michael McDonald about going on What's Happening. Yeah, yeah. And nine-year-old me pretty much imploded. Yeah, that really was one for the kids from the 70s. We are taping this at 11.01 a.m. Pacific time.

I would love to talk about the Doobie Brothers and what's happening for hours. By the way, not on YouTube, Mark Stein. How is that not on YouTube? Why so hard to find? It was 40 years ago. I saw the bootleg clips. I actually watched it after you...

I found it somewhere. I watched that after your pod. Yeah, it's on Dailymotion. Just go on YouTube. Somebody put that on YouTube so America can enjoy it. It works. It seems like Kyrie is in in Brooklyn,

which we've known for a few weeks now. But the last like 48 hours, there's been a lot of KD is coming too. And I just want to start here. If the Knicks strike out on everybody this summer after basically building to this for two years and then doing the Porzingis trade to open up even more cap space. And the Nets end up getting the two guys that we thought this whole season were probably ending up in New York playing for the Knicks. What does that say to you for the future of the James Dolan era in the NBA and in New

York? Does he, is this just beyond repair now? Is there no chance for them to ever come back as a franchise, as a player in any of this stuff? Or do you think this is an isolated incident? I'd love to believe that it's the wake up call that will make anybody else who has any kind of say their step back and say, you know, we might need to revisit this ownership situation. I mean, he, you know, he strikes me as intractable and you can't get him out. you can't get him out of there but i mean they just banned the daily news from a press conference which i didn't think was possible

yeah so i mean look the one thing the one caution i would say as you said tuesday 11 oh whatever pacific one in my time zone nobody Nobody knows anything right now, man. Nobody wants to admit that, but these teams are freaked out. Reporters like me who want to sit here and tell you we have all the answers, we don't. Wherever KD's

going, I think only he knows at this point. The Knicks don't know what to think. The Nets aren't sure because they're still looking at backup options. The Knicks don't know what to think. The Nets aren't sure because they're still looking at backup options. The Warriors still think they're in it. Nobody knows what KD's doing. Nobody knows what Kawhi's going to decide. I think Kyrie to the Nets is the closest thing to a sure thing as we speak, and I do still think they want him alone. I stop by the notion that they only want him if they're getting Katie as well. They will happily take Kyrie if he's solo. But of the three

main guys, I think that's really the most we know at this point. All right. So let's go this way. What do we actually know? I think we know for sure that the Celtics think Kyrie is gone and they're okay with it. And they've moved on as an organization and there's no chance he comes back. Can we say we know that for sure? They're certainly, that's the way they're operating. And I just reported, I think an hour before we got on the phone here, that I just heard today that Kemba Walker is in the Celtics site. So if Kemba Walker is in the Celtics site. So if Kemba Walker is in the Celtics site,

that's a pretty clear indication that they know Kyrie is going and maybe that goes the same for Rozier. So I was mad that you tweeted that and put that out because I was going to mention that to you in the podcast. You stole my thunder. I had been trying to figure out for a couple days. I enhanced your thunder. Yeah, you enhanced.

I'm going to join I enhanced your thunder. Yeah. You enhance you. I'm going to join in on your thunder. I had been trying to figure out really since Thursday night when it became clear to me, I hated their draft as it was happening. And then by the end of it realized what was going on. They were partially using those picks to create cap space. And I just couldn't understand what they were up to. And I had heard that Malcolm Brogdon was potentially a target, D'Angelo Russell. But I couldn't figure out why they wanted to get to a max number because there was only

seven or eight max guys that you would really want to spend $35 million a year on or $34.8, whatever it is. I couldn't figure out who it was. And then over the weekend, it started to crystallize that it was Kemba. And there's real reasons for it. He played at UConn. He's from New York. He's East Coast. And I think he's somebody that actually wants to win a title. And if you think about it, if you flip him for Kyrie from a chemistry standpoint, it's an unbelievable transformation. He does a lot of the closer stuff that Kyrie did. If the chemistry over the hole is better, that's great. Hayward

is going to be, that was a two-year injury. We're now at two years. If he was a top 15 player three years ago, it's realistic to think he could be a top 40 or a top 50 guy this year. And then suddenly it's starting to look like a Celtics team that could potentially at least be in the mix. I'm not saying they're a finals contender, but they're in the mix again. And it's not like this kind of, what the hell are we? Are we rebuilding? Are we retooling? What are we?

Would that make sense for Kemba? Or what have you heard? I'll go two ways. What have you heard the loyalty to Charlotte and what have you heard for how important it is for him to go to a big market and play for a contender and all that stuff? Look, I thought he didn't play.

I mean, you know where I live. His name has been linked to the Mavs for weeks. The Mavs are definitely interested. The Mavs want him. Based on everything I had heard, the Mavericks were the team that Charlotte feared. I might amend that now that the Celtics are in the mix. The immediate word after the draft was that your Celtics were going to look at a center.

And, you know, Busevic's name was bandied about, do they make a trade for Capella? So, you know, they've got this kind of floating cap space number depending on what they do with Rozier. I mean, they can get to the full max if they need to. I mean, I guess I should ask you, are you comfortable with a full max for Kemba? Yeah, I think for four years, absolutely. I think he's one of the best 15 to 20 guys in the league,

and it's a 30-team league. I do really like him. I love his attitude, and I think the's one of the best 15 to 20 guys in the league. And it's a 30 team league. I really like him. I love his attitude. And I think the dude is he's, he has really improved himself. I mean, he's made, he's kind of like Paul George.

He's made that really hard jump from very good to the superstar level, which is a really hard leap to make. I guess my one question, and I've said it about the Mavs as well, in Charlotte, Kemba has everything. The whole thing revolves around him, and we've never seen him have to play with other top players who, quote, need to be fed. And I think there's going to be a level of skepticism wherever, if he leaves Charlotte, and I do think he's one of the top 10 free agents, he's a guy in play to leave.

It's a question we're going to ask. How is he going to pay them? Is he ready to flip the load with pay? That question is out there. Well, I think with Kemba, I think the Celtics are a really fun fit for him. And even a fit that makes a little more sense than Dallas. Although I think, you know, Dallas going with Doncic and Porzingis,

that's great for anybody. But Stevens has proven over the last five, six years, and especially with Isaiah Thomas, but even like with guys like Jordan Crawford going way back that, you know, guards that can create their own shot, he can really do some stuff for them offensively, you know? And I think that was one of the most frustrated things with Kyrie was

Kyrie had the most tools you would ever want from somebody who can do all the stuff that the point guard seems to thrive in the Stevens offense. I think Kemba would be another guy like that. I think more importantly, the Celtics fan base and really the organization, that was such a souring year last year. It was so unhappy and so frustrating. Kemba is just a fun guy to root for and a great character guy. And I think after what happened last year, they've really shifted back toward the character thing.

And you can see with the draft picks. I've actually argued here, do the Mavs really want to go down this road? I mean, Luka and KP, that's your two main guys. Does Kemba really want to come here and be the third guy? Can it work? I mean, I've raised big questions. Now, I will say the Mavs are an ultra-confident bunch.

And, you know, I have been scoffed at when I raised that. And they're convinced that it's a fit and that they can make it work. And, you know, they love the idea of two ball handlers and not putting it all on Don Fitz. Because last year, I mean, the kid took on a ridiculous load running this team. So I still think the Mavs are very interested. But yeah, I mean, the Celtics, it's an intrigue. I mean, it really is an intriguing, it is an intriguing idea. Well, the cool thing with Kemba, whether wherever he goes,

he is somebody that I think is in the prime of his career, right? He's going to turn 30 in May of next year. You're probably getting two peak years from him, and then who knows after that. But these next two will be along the lines of what we had this year, where he was almost 26

a game. He's a 44, 36, 85 percentage guy. But that was in an offense where he was really the only above average offensive player they had. And I think if I'm Dallas or I'm Boston, especially if I'm Dallas, and the thing I would worry about is, all right, well, if we have Kemba, I want Doncic to be my closer. And Kemba is a guy who's been a closer the last few years. Doncic is, I think, an MVP possible closer at some point in his career. And I would worry Kemba would maybe take away from that.

But on the flip side, you could say, well, actually, he's never played with two players like this before. And if he's an option and not the only option, could that unleash him? Could he be 15 to 20% more efficient offensively? You know, for him, he'd have to think, all right, I'm going to this team where they have two other really extraordinary offensive players. Or I go to Boston where

I'd probably be the closer, you know, I, on a good team that has a lot of offensive weapons, I would be shoved right into that closer role, which I'm comfortable with, with, you know. There's more runway for him to be Kemba Walker. I had no question. I think probably, probably a higher upside though in Dallas. Cause I, you know, it's funny. I take shit now from Atlanta fans who were like,

oh man, you were so wrong about the Donchich trade. We got Trey Young and Kane Reddish. It's like, you guys lost that trade. Sorry. I like Trey Young, but Doncic is a future MVP. And that's just always going to be the reality of that. And they traded that away. No matter, I like Trey Young.

I liked what we saw from him last year. I think he's a zero defensively, but I think offensively, he really has a chance to be a special player. He's not Donchich. And if I'm Kemba and I'm looking at the arc of this and how fast it happened with Giannis, you look at the NBA awards last night. I did the draft six years ago and Giannis was 6'9". He grows to seven feet. Nobody ever imagined he'd make an all-star team. And six years later, he's giving the MVP speech. This stuff happens fast with young players. It happened fast with Durant.

When somebody's really great, it starts happening like year three, year four. And I think with Doncic, I think there's real evidence it could happen, you know, two years from now. And if I'm Kemba,

that would be really attractive to me. I think Doncic is a potential MVP. You just watched him for a year. You agree with that, right? I mean, you know I was a fan before he even got here. Look, the questions in Dallas are not about Dodgers. It's all about poor things. By the time he gets back on the floor, I think it will have been 20 months before he played an NBA

game. Everyone looks fantastic. You know, Nowitzki is the guy that I usually take his opinion on board as much as anyone and has done nothing but rave about what he's seen

from Porzingis behind closed doors at practice because by the end of last season, Porzingis was back on the floor practicing. But it's still

a big unknown. But I will say again, I can't say it strong enough the mavs have the mavs are so confident that kemba is a good fit and they can make it work and it's basically anytime i've suggested otherwise it's signed stick to soccer you don't know what you're talking about they they want so and look the Mavs free agent history as everyone knows is tortured beyond reason they're gonna hit a home run one of these guys they're not gonna go over forever so a Boston Dallas face-off for Kemba would be really I mean it's not going to

be the focus of free agency because obviously Durant and Kawhi, I mean, they're the guys, they're the top two by some distance, but Boston versus Dallas versus Charlotte for Kemba would be a pretty damn good undercard. The Charlotte thing makes no sense to me because if they sign him, they immediately become a luxury tax team. There's really no outs for another year. There's no road path for no road path, no path for him to really be on an elite team for at least two years there. But what are they? If he goes, I mean,

if they, I mean, I'm with you all that. That's all totally true. Are they even a franchise without? I know, but this is the decade where nobody thinks that way anymore. Players, you know,

this is the player empowerment decade. He's not going to... We always think these guys are going to feel loyalty to whoever. And I'm sure he loves Charlotte. I think if he leaves, though, it's because if he leaves, it's because they're not giving him the full max.

You know, if they put the full max on the table, that's a hard thing to walk away from. I know, but you can't do that if you're Charlotte. I personally think that would be abject insanity to pay the luxury tax year

after year for a team that has no chance to compete for the title. Anybody who pays the luxury tax and has no chance to win the title is insane. That's just an insane thing to do. Nobody should do that. And I am a big proponent of spend money. As you know, I was the all-time, I can't believe OKC traded James Harden to save a couple million bucks. But to pay the luxury tax when you have zero chance is nuts. And I think it'd be nuts for him to stay there. I really do. I, at some point you, you got to find out how good you are as a player. I think

you can be just toil away for years. Like he should go call Mitch Richmond and ask Mitch Richmond how it worked out for him. You know, Mitch Richmond just made the hall of fame. He never really played a meaningful, you know, conference finals game or finals game. By the time he got to the Lakers, he was washed. And was that a good thing for him? He should call him and ask him because I think in Dallas or in Boston, he would have a chance to compete. And if I were him, I don't know what I would pick. What do you think? Boston's had a couple rough years here with how they've handled players and the Isaiah Thomas thing, um, that

he played injured. I don't know how they diagnosed the injury, but that part certainly wasn't great. And they definitely changed the training staff after that. Um, they traded him when he was injured goods. They traded him after all the stuff he had done for him. And I think that really soured a lot of people. Now you look at what happened with Kyrie. Now you look at Danny's reputation of, oh, he'll trade anybody, nobody's safe. Like, do you think players, after a while word gets around,

like, yeah, that team, great organization, but the moment they don't need you anymore, they'll get rid of you? Oh, I do. I don't think there's any question, but the Celtics also have not been a free agent haven. I mean, they got Horford.

And Hayward. Horford and Hayward were two huge catches, though. And before that, it was nobody. I can't remember. Dominique. Broken down Dominique. We got him. We got Travis Knight. We pulled him down.

Do they get Hayward without Brad Stevens? I'm guessing not. Look, I say the same thing about the Rockets. I mean, if you're a Rockets fan or you're a Celtics fan, you must love that your team, you know your team will just keep doing anything and will move any piece necessary to keep getting the team better.

But I say the same thing about the Rockets. It's got to be so unsettling right now to be a Rocket. You know, D'Antoni doesn't have a new deal. They just changed all the coaches. They were shopping everybody not Dave Harden, or at least they were. I mean, yeah, I don't think there's any question

that players are paying attention to that. Yeah, I think players are more educated on how the league works than they've ever been before because of social media, podcasts, what they read. It's easier to just find content. Remember, like, last

decade, you just basically bookmark different sites you liked. And if somebody wrote something that was out of that little bookmark circle that you had, the only way you're really going to find out if it was on a place like Hoops Hype or if a friend mailed it to you. And now anything you write or tweet is going to become a thing immediately. Like you did that Kemba tweet this morning and everybody saw it within an hour. And that's just the world we live in now with information. And I do think the Celtics, this is a pretty damaging two-year run for them. They made the wrong bet on Kyrie.

Horford leaving is not great because I do think he's one of the most respected NBA guys in the whole league. That's why I thought Dallas might NBA guys in the whole league. That's why I thought Dallas might be interested in him, but it really doesn't seem like they're on him at all. Well, that's the, that's a mystery, man. Look, I've been trying to solve that one for a week and I'm, I am no closer to the answer. I mean, on, I think it was draft night or the night after I was told Horford four, one 12. You've got it. Okay. where? I don't know. The Mavs keep coming up over and over and over again. I've literally asked them five times.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like it's the Mavs. You know what's crazy? We always talk, remember like two years ago there was that whole thing about they should have free agency before the draft. It would make things so much easier. Make it easier for teams to play in. Now we basically do have

free agency before the draft. The Celtics went in that draft knowing that Kyrie and Horford weren't coming back. And that's the first time I can remember a team heading into the draft kind of knowing what it looked. Whatever day the Hawks and Nets made that trade, that was the start of free agency. Whatever date

that was, June 10th. Right. I gotta say, I think the league kind of likes it. It's definitely one of those, yeah, let's look the other way. I know the speed limit says 55, but if you want to go 80 on this stretch of the highway, we're cool with that.

I think they like the daily stuff. We know a handful of meetings have already been set. They just haven't leaked out. Does it really matter that they're set five, six days before they're supposed to? Well, and also the players are all texting each other. That was how the Celtics knew for sure that Kyrie was gone. He was out recruiting dudes to come to Brooklyn with him. And whether he actually ends up in there, I don't know.

But it was definitely one of those things like, hey man, I got this extra Mac spot. You interested? And that's the league we live in now. And these guys, it's very easy for them to get in touch with each other and that's how they roll. Let's take a quick break.

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That is cliff bar with one F cliff bar.com slash BS. What is the underground thing you're hearing right now that hasn't really surfaced as a major story yet as we head towards July 1st? I'm so focused on the overground. I haven't dug into the underground. Seriously, I think the biggest... It's funny to me that

we spend all year long... Kawhi's going to Clippers. Done deal. Durant and Irving, done deal.i's going to the Clippers. Done deal. Durant, Irving, done deal. They're going to the Knicks. We talk about these things all year long. And what is today? June 25th. We get here.

Free agency is almost starting. And we really don't know. That fascinates me. And again, it's not just us on the outside. I've got teams asking me they don't know either you know everybody is nervous now that clippers you i mean you you go to clipper games i'm sure you felt it i'm sure you heard it there was unmistakable confidence that you could tangibly feel from these guys yeah that we're getting kwhi. And they still might. They are still

the four most favorite. But if you think the Clippers aren't worried, knowing that Kawhi says, you know what, why don't I just do a one plus one and stay in Toronto and run it back and defend our championship? He could easily do that. And it would

make a lot of sense. And you know what, as a basketball romantic, I hope he does. There was definitely a swagger with the clips and I never knew for sure whether it was Kawhi, KD, Kawhi and KD, like what they were having, but they definitely felt like this summer, good things were going to happen to them.

And I thought for sure it was Kawhi, especially after he bought the house, but I'm with you. He could go back. They got Jerry West. They've got a great front office. They still have never done it in free agency. The Clippers have never done it. I'm not going to talk about them getting two

until they get one. Go get one first. And then we'll talk about it. Do you think players are gravitating toward organizations and ownership structures more than ever before? Because for Brooklyn and the Clippers, those were teams that were forever persona non grata or had unproven commodities in markets, but it didn't really matter. And now because those teams were well run the the last couple years have become free agent players. And it doesn't feel like a coincidence, right?

Well, I think it'll be easier to say that if the Knicks really do strike out. Because if the Knicks strike out, they're going to say, we made that Porzingis trade with an eye not just to this summer but to the future and we wanted flexibility. But look, I mean, that's an amazing face-off right there. The Knicks and the Nets both opened up two slots. And somebody's going home disappointed. I guess, you know, if the Knicks got Durant and the Nets got Kyrie, we could call it a draw.

But, I mean, imagine if one of them gets two and the other gets none in the same city. That's ridiculous. I mean, the Lakers, you know, the Lakers, even before they got Anthony Davis, the Lakers were quietly insisting that they're in the Kawhi Leonard hunt. Media people don't know what the hell you're talking about. And we're right there in the mix for Kawhi. So I guess we have to see. They have a chance in five days to prove us wrong. We've all thought it was Raptors or Clippers only for Kawhi.

The Lakers think they're in there. I guess we'll see. What have you heard from New Orleans? Because they have cap space and an incredibly appealing situation all of a sudden in a whole bunch of different ways. I have not heard this from New Orleans, but I've heard this theory posited by from some other teams. Could they be the Horford team?

I mean, could Al Horford just be the perfect mentor for young Zion? Wow. I, I, I thought for him, I thought Dallas or the Clippers, but yeah, New Orleans. That's interesting. And he just, man, if they got Horford.

You got Drew Holiday, you got Zion, you got Al as the glue guy and the veteran save. Oh, man. That is not reporting. That is theorizing. Well, you also have Griffin who's, who's one of the smarter executives and probably understands he needs some vets there. Cause I thought the other one I thought was a possible was Reddick. I think they're going to sign somebody like that and overpay them a little bit, a little like what Philly did a couple of years ago with Reddick and just

get an adult in the room. And whether it's Horford or Reddick or Horford and Reddick, I mean, they do, they do have the cap space now. I do think we should be taking them more seriously. I keep hearing the same teams getting thrown around, right? Clippers, Celtics, Mavs, Knicks and Nets.

Who else am I leaving out? The Lakers. But I mean, the Pelicans are not that far away from being kind of dangerous. Like if you had Horford to that team, I think Zion's going to be good right away. Holiday is already a top 25 guy. Um, I don't know.

Kind of like that. That's why, that's why this is so delicious because there are so many different ways it can play out. And, and again, what do we know? We know Clay's staying with the Warriors.

We think we know Kyrie will be in net. After that, what do we really know among the top guys? I don't think we know anything. What have you heard from I keep hearing Miami's name getting thrown around

as in a don't sleep on Miami. Yeah, look, they're going to get meetings with top guys because Pat Riley is just a force of nature and there's just no way he's not. I mean, which is which is quite a flex when you think about it. You can't even imagine how the Heat are going to even create cap space and would have to, and anything they do would have to be a sign and trade. And yet I promise you, Riley will get a meeting or two with somebody's big name. He just will. Well, they have,

they have a roadmap because we had that J.R. Smith contract that I always mentioned on the pod, which I think they do not have. No, but I'm saying they could trade for it within the next couple of days, right? And waive that contract. And if they could somehow figure out a way to flip Whiteside for J.R. Smith, whatever else they would have to throw in.

And the Cavs would have to throw in some salary too. So it wouldn't be like they would be able to clear off the whole 27. But if there's some world where there's a Miami ClevelandCleveland kind of deal and they threw in some future assets and were able to clear some space, that's the only way I could see it happening.

Because otherwise, they don't have the cap space. I just love that he'll still go. He won't retire. He won't go out like this. He's determined to get one more good team in place. I love it. Do you place. I love it. I love it. KOC wrote today for us about

there's shades of 2016 here a little bit because you have a lot of teams with cap. The cap's going up. It's up to 109. And we could see some dumb ass moves. You know nothing on the earth makes me happier than teams overpaying guys and doing dumb things. Do you feel like?

Well, also, I think the reason is because it's also wide open or theoretically wide open. Now, in truth, it ain't nearly as wide open as people think. If Kawhi does say, I'm to stay in toronto for one more year i mean if they bring kawaii and danny green back and assuming this all stays they they basically got their core and i think then they are the clear favorites but i think the last two summers we thought the last two summers are two of the best we've ever had in terms of a free agent frenzy and that was when the warriors were considered a lock yeah you know two years ago we saw you know houston trades chris paul and oklahoma city trades for paul george with no guarantee they can keep him and then this season you know every team

in the in the east except your celtics who would have but had no way to do it all these teams the east are making all their all-in moves and this. And this was two years in a row when the Warriors were a Vegas lock. Now with the title totally open, yeah, we're going to see some irresponsible spending. Well, I was thinking with Kawhi, because I cannot figure out why he would do a one-on-one with Toronto after what just happened to Durant. That, just right there, watching Durant fall down holding his Achilles with the max contract seemingly going up in smoke, would be the impetus for somebody not to do the one-on-one.

But if Durant signs a four-year max deal anyway on July 1st, then if I'm Kawhi, I'm like, all right, I do the one-on-one, defend the title. It's the last stand for Toronto. Most of these guys are getting old and there's no way we can keep this team together anyway. And then I am the top free agent by far in 2020 because 2020 is not the greatest. It's certainly not like this summer.

He's one of the big prizes this summer anyway. A one-on-one still gives you a $36 million insurance policy. It's obviously not as good as a five-year max, but that's still a pretty nice insurance policy. I just think

Kawhi's shown us that he doesn't care about the nba norm he's going to do whatever he wants to do yeah and if he wants late if he wants to do the one-in-one or even i guess he could even do the two-in-one and that gets into the 10-year max but no i mean i i mean i will not be surprised he does the one-in-one i mean it would be the rational thing to go for the full max, but he's already shown us. He plays by his own rules. But maybe it wouldn't be the rational thing.

If he knows he could get the full max anyway a year from now and he goes in the one-on-one, the total amount of money for those five years would be around the same anyway. So I think this KD thing, however it plays out, is going to be really informative for somebody like Kawhi. And maybe Kawhi waits six, seven days. And if it turns out that Max contract just isn't there for KD, I would personally be alarmed if I was Kawhi. I was like, oh, man.

Well, here's the other thing it just shows you. These top guys are on such a different planet to everybody else that as you know, the Achilles injury is the worst thing that can happen to a basketball player. The worst. And yet you still hear

that none of Durant's suitors are backing down and out. They are willing to put whatever it takes on the table to get this guy. That speaks to just how ridiculously good he is that, you know, I think anybody would do. I mean, you know, you're not going to have him for a year, but if you bet on anybody to recover from this injury

and be close to what he was, it's Kevin Durant. Yeah. Even if he comes back 80% what he was, he's still better than Chris Middleton, 80% of Kevin Durant, you know? So you have to take it seriously. And if you're a team like the Knicks where nobody wants to sign with you, and this is your one chance to get somebody who granted is, you know is on crutches for six months. You have to think about it. Can we go through? I wanted to go through some free agents and play a little game of,

do you think they'll be overpaid, underpaid, or properly played as we look back on free agents, like in July 20th? All right. So Kawhi, KD, Kyrie, Klay, crossing those off. You can't overpay those guys. Yeah. They're getting whatever they're going to get. Jimmy Butler. Do you think he will be overpaid think he's going to get the max from someone because there are just

too many slots to fill and too many teams are going to come up empty so i i don't think he has to worry that much and the way he played in the playoffs i think it's proper i mean he look he's not everybody's cup of tea there's no question about that he can be a handful but the dude is an undeniable difference maker as as great as mbd is when he hits the ceiling for all the potential ben simmons had i mean he was the steadiest guy in philly he was the most dependable guy and he got them to the absolute brink of beating the eventual champion so people could knock him for you know whatever you know again i i don't think he's he's as culpable in minnesota as the wolves themselves are for that

situation yeah i still can't believe that after the way the previous season ended they should have been looking to trade if the minute they got a whiff of his discontent they should have been trying to trade him from may and june of 2018 they let it linger too long they got way too little back for him they did all that before whatever butler. I'm a fan of his and I think he's going to have a lot of suitors. I think four years he'll be properly paid with the max because that's

just going to be the price. Five year max from Philly, I feel like that would be a little overpay. But it's like, you got to do it. If you got to beat off the competition, you have to do it. If the choice is losing him, you have to do it. I wouldn't give him the five-year max though. I would give him five-year relatively close,

but I don't want to tie up my cap in those three guys because that's eventually where I'm going to be a year from now. It is interesting though. He did align himself with Embiid as that run went along in a lot of different ways. Not so subtle. They're going to get Simmons under contract at some point, and they can trade him

if it doesn't work. I mean, I don't think it's like they would be stuck with that three forever if it doesn't work. True. He's an asset. Get Simmons signed long-term term and then you're off. That's fair. So you think Philly for him?

At this point, yeah. These are June 25th guesses. Nobody can hold us against this. This is just how we feel on June 25th. I think... I still think Clippers for Kawhi. I think KD and Kyrie go to Brooklyn together and I think Klay stays in Golden State. You agree

with that four? Sort of. I actually think Kawhi staying in Toronto, I think that's gaining steam by the day. I do not acknowledge. I am not one of the select few who is left to have

access to the inner sanctum of Team Kawhi. So you're reading the tea leaves. I just, yeah, I'm just thinking, why not do it for Wink? I mean, look, he is such a different dude. If anybody walks away from the champ, you know, the defending champ, it's him. You know, he's capable of anything. But I don't know i just i think i think i do give the raptors a chance to keep them and and durant i'm just telling you i just i can't even call it i can't you know yesterday i reported that that you know

the nets are exploring can we make it kairi kd and dere Jordan loves DeAndre Jordan can they make it a trio will that make this thing more enticing to Durant but I think one key thing on Kevin you gotta pay attention to he will not like the perception that he is joining Kyrie if Kyrie goes to the net first I don't know that that helps the net on Kevinant. I think Durant's got to go first, kind of sell it to himself. Yeah. So, look, I mean, the Nets, no question, the Nets are a bigger factor in this than anybody would have imagined. But I don't know.

I'm not ready to put my money down on that yet. Well, I've already put my money down on KD and the Knicks, and I think it's going to be a loser. More overpaid, underpaid, properly paid. Kemba Walker, four years max. I think we both agree properly paid. Yeah, properly paid. Five years super max?

I'm going to say overpaid. I think that's an incredibly dangerous contract for them. Your opinion is? I can't. Well, Charlotte's in a lose-lose situation. If they do it for all the reasons you said, they're screwed. If they don't do it, I think they're screwed. Because they don't have...

It's not like not doing it means they've got... You won't exactly be confusing the Hornets with Memphis. Memphis is rebuilding with Moran and jj day and they got clark and they've got a coach that no one had ever really heard of but you know what they're starting over with this use and fun and you know they're they're like they're the new hawk you know it's not like charlotte can do that if they let true go so i you know i. So I don't like their path either way. I think Houston is hoping they sign him to the five-year max because they'll be like,

hey, in December, if you're not happy with that contract, we'll give you Chris Paul for it. Shorter deal. He can get out earlier. He's pretty good. Him and Jordan. Conspiracy Bill always has enough to flee. That's pretty good. Alright, I agree with you that

Al Horford is going to get 4 for 112 because I think the Celts offered him somewhere in the 3 for 85 to 90 range and he was like, no thanks. 4 for 112. But also, that number is like, why is that number so precise?

Yeah. Or it's four for 120, whatever it is. I got to say, and I love Al Horford. I'm Al Horford's biggest fan. I watched him for two years. I'm a giant fan.

That's a really dangerous contract to go four years with him at huge money. Those last two years, he's, he came into the league in 07. He's been weirdly in a lot of playoff games. He's been relatively healthy that whole time. But now we're at the point where he has some real miles on him. And I don't think it's realistic for him to deliver $35 million worth of value in years three and four. Year three, at least, isn't expiring if it's a three-year deal. But man, I love that move for New Orleans.

If it's them, I like it for the Clippers if they also think they get Kawhi. But paying somebody, a 37-year-old center, $35, $36 million to me is pretty desperate. Yeah, but this is the market. I mean, there's 14 teams with real cap space, but there's Knicks and Nets, Lakers, Clippers, let's extend it to Boston and Dallas. I mean, there are a lot of teams with money that players would like to throw New Orleans in there now.

I mean, there's going to be, it's not like the years when the Hawks,k like the hawks the hawks are realistic the hawks could have had civilians in cap space they said we're not getting anybody we know that let's make trades let's use our cap space wisely but this is a deal where there's seven or eight teams that are going to sign real free agents so. So they're all going to be overpaid to some degree because you've got to beat out competition. I guess he's played less games than I thought because he only played 11 games in 2012 and 29 games in 2014 because he had bad injuries both those years.

So he's over 900, but he's been in the league now. This will be year 13. I don't know. Maybe he can get three out of them. Put him in New Orleans. They got Aaron Nelson now. The Vaunted Suns training staff is in New Orleans now. He'll be fine.

I love Al Horford. I hope he gets paid. Pay Al Horford. He's great. I thought you were the one. Aren't you the one who made up Average Al? I thought that was you. No, I was the one defending him. That made me so mad. He's so

not Average Al. D'Angelo Russell. Overpaid, underpaid, properly paid. I hate to say this about a fellow lefty. Yeah, you love the lefties. But I hate to say it,

I'm still not sold. I know he had a great season last year. I'm going to say overpay. I'm just, I'm not there yet. I'm just not, maybe I'm unfair, but I'm not there yet.

I like what he saw, what he showed last year, obviously. Did not love him in the playoffs, but that was also his first taste of that kind of spotlight I like that he's four years younger

than Kyrie and I agree with what our pal Zach Lowe wrote about you know just from a pure value standpoint he's probably

Kyrie's probably worth eight million more but when you bring in the intangibles and the fact that we actually saw Russell be a willing chemistry guy

last year and not really care who got, who got the acclaim or who was finishing game, stuff like that. I, that stuff carries a lot of weight with me. If he goes to Minnesota,

if they carve out the space for it, which I think, I think they're going to potentially have, right. Doesn't Minnesota, they have enough space to be a player, correct? Yes.

I mean, they've been linked to him. I don't know how reliable that is, but I mean, that has been bandied out. I was thinking Minnesota or Phoenix are the two teams that seem logical to me as suitors. I do think

Rubio to Indiana because Indiana is another D'Angelo team, but it seems like Rubio is higher on the Pacers list. Maybe they think he's more gettable, and that's why. But I got a question for you. Is Kyrie now taking so much grief

for what he did to that locker room that he's actually going to come back and be a different dude with his next employer? I mean, I actually think he'll be great for a few months. And it'll be like, oh my God, it was the Celtics fall. And it'll just be October, November, December. He'll be amazing.

He'll score 29 a game and he'll say all the right things. He'll be an absolute mensch to everybody who comes up to him. And just talk to me in about month 13, month 17, that range. Cause I think, I think what, what, uh, I, I just think it'll eventually turn now. What's interesting to me though, is, you know, from what I've been told, Dan Witte, who I love that dude. And what, I mean, what a great contract he's on.

He's apparently been a key recruiter in this Kyrie thing. So I guess what that says to me is that the Nets players are really on board with this. And last year they were team chemistry. We're all cast off and we're young and we love each other. We're greater than the sum of our parts. But they really seem to want this. Well, I guess you'd have to look at it like, what made the Kyrie thing go south if it wasn't his fault?

And maybe part of it was there might've been a clash with him and Stevens with how offensively they wanted to play. I'd always heard that. I'd always heard he wanted to be used more like James Harden in Houston and Stevens is a big ball movement. Everybody touches a guy

and is not really ball stopper friendly. That's not how they want to play. So maybe that's a small piece of it, but it doesn't explain how unhappy that team was. It also doesn't explain what happened to him in the Milwaukee series. Like explain that to me. Go back and watch those five games.

He was a negative player in those games on both ends. Defensively, was inexplicably awful. Offensively, couldn't make a shot. And didn't seem like he gave a shit. So that's who you're signing. Whether he can turn it around, good luck to him. He's fun to watch.

But I just think it's really risky. I mean, look, Danny basically said goodbye to him the other day with that whole yeah they were done they had it it wasn't all Kyrie though there was some Rozier stuff and Marcus Morris

was unhappy and I think I think the Hayward thing with how they kept trying to force feed him in and give him all these chances and he hadn't really earned his minutes and they were giving them to him. Anyway, I think that was a big deal. I think they felt like it was like Steven's looking out for his dude. And, uh, it just was the year from hell and I'm glad it's over. Um,

Tobias Harris overpaid, underpaid or properly paid. I gotta be honest, man. That's the dude. I just, there has been so little chatter about him uh you know as good as you know as good as he can be as good as we as well as we've seen him play in spurts now i do not think the playoffs did him any favors but i mean it's amazing that you almost classify him as an underground guy because there's so much heat at the top of this free agency class. I mean, I'm sitting on everybody to get overpaid again because to get anyone with this many quality bidders out there, it's going to cost you a lot of money. So I don't know who that team is yet, but I'm sure somebody is going to give them a big four-year deal.

Why couldn't it be Denver? It could. I mean, I thought Denver might be the sneaky Anthony Davis bidder. I don't know if they really want to do something daring. Nobody was beating that ridiculous Lakers offer. Well, it was like the Lakers offer. Well, it was like the Lakers are paying 160 cents in the dollar. Nobody else even had the assets to do that.

Do you think there's kind of an outside punchers chance that Harris comes back to the Clippers? I haven't seen that mentioned, but that would be the most Jerry West move of all time. You trade this dude and you get a ton of assets and then you just re-sign him four months later. Come on back. You've been great. I have not heard that either. I mean,

look, again, it's been so... The drumbeat of Kawhi to the Clippers has been so steady until the finals that you didn't even know what the backup plan was. That's what I mean. Maybe he's the backup plan. It's totally legal for. Maybe he's the backup plan.

It's totally legal for them to re-sign him. It feels like it should be illegal, but it's actually not. It's 100% legal. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would also, I mean, don't they need to maintain maximum flexibility? If Kawhi does a one-on-one,

I would think they're going to wait and go after him again. Hmm. Okay. Well, I think they would. I think that's what I would think they're going to wait and go after him again. Okay. Well, I think they would. That's what I would do. But that Gallinari comes off. But Gallinari comes off in a year.

So they would just use that money and give it to Kawhi. Don't rule out the Clippers. I don't have the numbers in front of me to know if that's possible. But I don't think they will do anything that jeopardizes going after Kawhi again. If they could bring in a high dollar free agent and still have that flexibility the year after, that's fine.

Chris Middleton. Chris Middleton. Okay, he should have been on our list of locks. He's on back of the lock. Overpaid, underpaid, or properly paid, though? Bill Simmons will definitely, on his next Ryan Rosillo visit, will definitely declare that to be an overpay. Because they're going to give him a five.

I think he's going to get a five-year max from the bus. Oh, no. Five-year max? Oh, no. Oh, please don't do that. Oh, God. Really? That's my gut. Oh, please don't do that. Oh, God. Really? That's my gut.

Oh, boy. They're just five year close at the worst. They should go. They should really go back and look carefully, really, really carefully at LeBron's 0809 and 2010 rosters and all the moves that Cleveland made those three years before they do that. Because it's very easy to overpay. So if I wave my magic wand and you're the new John Horse,

are you prioritizing Brogdon over Middleton? I'm trying to bring them both back and I think they're both important. And I'm trying to... Well, if you bring both... Again, you're going to have... If they offer him less than the max and teams out there sniff an opportunity,

I mean, Middleton is a guy a lot of teams would want. They just don't think he's available. Everybody thinks he's going back to Milwaukee. Well, give him the four-year max. He can't get a five-year max from anyone else. What's he going to leave? He's playing with Giannis. I would try to keep both of them,

but not destroy the next five years of my cap. The thing with them is, they got the all-time sweetheart deal from the city of Milwaukee with that arena. You had two rich guys, two really well-known rich guys who own that team who bought it for nothing. And now it's like quintupled in value because they stumbled into the honest thing, which is, you know, they hit the all-time lottery with him.

And that, that team is now a money machine and they, they should, they should spend luxury tax for that. In my opinion. When are you buying a team? A couple of years. I'm going to buy a Hollywood friend that you could, you can get a group together with all your... There's no value anymore. The year was 2010. How many teams were available during that 18-month stretch?

It was like eight? The Sixers got bought for like five bucks and a ham sandwich. Remember that? It was nuts. The Charlotte, they basically gave the Charlotte to MJ. I think he paid like, I think he put down like a hundred million cash. Those, those days are over. That's why, that's, that's why even MLS teams go for zillions now because nobody can afford

NBA teams. And these guys want to own sports teams so bad they have to buy MLS teams. Yeah. All the rich dudes want to own a team that they can then tell people like, yeah, I own LAFC or whatever it is. It's like having a yacht. Last overpaid, underpaid, properly paid guy and then we have to go. Nikola Vucevic.

Some Celtics whispers with him. Yeah, I mean, well, if the Kemba thing happens, then that obviously will wipe that out. But I still think he's going to be, let's say, properly paid. You'll call it an overpay. But I think he'll,

he's either going to get a, he'll get a good deal to stay in Orlando or he'll get, he'll get it somewhere. The Kings are still looking at that one. I think depending on the numbers, there'll be a bid or the cells are in there at some level. I think if it's in the four years, a hundred range,

I would say properly paid. And I'm even factoring in the, the bumper. That's the ballpark. I thought he was really good last year. And by the way, it can shoot threes now, which,

you know, he's not, not at the Brook Lopez level, but his ability to at least stretch the floor a little bit has made him dangerous. My favorite, I just love Brook Lopez. And if I'm the Bucks, I would be as worried about bringing him back

as any of these other guys. I thought he was essential to what they did. I got to ask you one question before I go. Yeah. I need this answer from you. Because I'm dealing with this in my newsletter that will be out probably by the time this pod comes out. Yeah.

Asterisk. Did the Raptors get an asterisk? Oh, my asterisk column. Yeah. I mean, most titles, there's some sort of asterisk. But I also feel like it's like the 2014 Spurs to me. They earned that title. Whether you want to give them, you know,

in the first sentence of the title's obituary, it will be that the Warriors also had two catastrophic injuries during the finals. But at the same time, to me, the Philly series made that title 1,000% earned. What they went through that series to get by that Sixers team. And then they just had different

guys step up every time they needed somebody. I thought it was a really great team effort and a great title. I support it. What do you think? I think the asterisk part is going to be unavoidable because those injuries were so bad and the worst that we've ever seen in the finals.

And we'll always get a mention, but I also think, and this is kind of what I explore here, the 99 Spurs were, at least in my time, they were the original asterisk team because Bill Jackson branded them that way. I think that fades with time. Now, 20 years later, do we still really talk about that? I think it's... To me, it's like the 2011

Mavs. They had an incredible player who played out of his mind and a really good team effort and they made it happen. I think that's how we're going to remember it. It's very similar to that Mavs team to me. Mark Stein, we can subscribe to your newsletter. We can follow you on Twitter.

We can read you in the New York Times and I look forward to your coverage the next few days. Enjoy the next couple of weeks. You're going to be giddy. All right. Thanks for coming on. I'm the ringer.

Podcast Network. See you later. Hey, we're going to be giddy. All right. Thanks for coming on. I'm the ringer. Podcast network. See you later. Hey, we're going to call my dad really quick because I want to have, he wants to do a farewell to Kyrie. But first, Heinz Mayonnaise transforms ordinary foods into an unforgettably creamy experience.

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Mayo Q, Mayo Must, and Crunch. All right, we're going to call my dad. All right, my dad's on the phone. It is now noon Pacific time.

Dad, I just wanted to give you the chance to say goodbye to Kyrie Irving because it seems like he's really gone. Any last thoughts? Any last words after two years of watching him? I said goodbye to him days ago. I said goodbye to him when I saw you driving him to the airport on that video

on the internet. So I wish I was in the back seat. I would have been packing his luggage. What could you have done differently as you look back? Is there anything you could have done? Could you have cheered harder? Could you have cheered harder for him? Maybe you didn't give enough.

I was at the season ticket. It wasn't even a game. It was like a get-together, a little scrimmage, meet the new players, beginning of the year. Kyrie comes out midcourt, makes his bold statement that he's re-signing with the Celts. The crowd goes wild. Everybody's thinking about,

we lost in Game 7 of the conference finals. If we had Kyrie, we would have been in the finals. What a nightmare. I mean, I was fooled. I guess I didn't realize what a negative, terrible influence he was on other players. I think I told you that second half of the year, we used to watch the huddle because we'd sit near there. And Kyrie would be trying to give, I guess,

advice to every other player on the team, and nobody was listening. They were all looking up in the stands. They're making eye contact with their families or friends. I mean, the guy was a nightmare. I hope he does well in Brooklyn, and I hope we can use his money wisely, but get the guy out of here. That's my opinion. And you think the Celtics fan base

shares that opinion? It feels like it does. You know, there was an article about, is he, well, a couple of things. Is he the worst Celtic since Roe and... Oh, Sidney Wicks and Curtis Roe? Exactly. Is he the worst Celtic since back then? Or is he the most disliked athlete in Boston the same way you put when Ellsbury went to the Yankees,

when Damon went to the Yankees, when Clemens went to the Yankees eventually. You know, he's in that category of he's really, really, really disliked up there. So when he comes back, there's going to be some boos. There's going to be a lot of boos. You know, the other thing that worries me, and I don't know if you saw it today, there was a little piece about the Sixers being very interested in Al Horford.

I like Al Horford a lot, and I understand he probably isn't coming back, but I just hope he doesn't make that kind of decision because if he came back, it would be like Ray Allen when he came back as a member of Miami.

Oh, Al Horford jumping to the enemy, you mean? Yes, exactly. I know he wants to win a championship. And he's the polar opposite of Kyrie Irving. Kyrie Irving is so disliked. Al Horford is very much liked in this city. And I think people kind of understand that 33 maybe wants to win a championship. But please, don't go to somebody like the 76ers.

Yeah, but I think if they were offering him four years and the Celtics were only offering him three, I would be fine with... I love Al Horford. Jacky McMullen said that the Celts did off for four years. I don't think that's... That money and length of contract was not the issue, that he really wants to go to a contender, and we're not a contender.

I don't know what we're going to do with all our money. There's so many rumors running rampant around here about whether we have $28 million, or if they denounce Rozier, do we have $37 million or whatever? Who could you go out and get for that money? Would that make us a contender? I don't know. I don't know who you can go out and get.

I like that you created a new word, denounce. It's renounce, but I like denounce. It's like how you denounce an evil spirit. We've denounced Kyrie Irving. It's much stronger than renounce, so I made that word up. Yeah, there's some Kemba Walker rumors. We just had Mark Stein on the podcast. We were talking about that.

He's from East Coast, obviously went to UConn, and is the kind of guy who's impossible not to root for. I love the guy. Don't you like the guy? Yeah, he's been great. I think the part that people are missing with Kyrie, it actually was relatively salvageable. As much of a nightmare as the season was

and how unhappy the team was and how much unfun it was to watch it, it all could have been salvaged if they played well in the playoffs. And I think it's getting swept under the rug how bad he was in that Bucs series. Like he was unconscionably awful. Yeah, he was a complete no-show.

You know, that's the other thing. He kept saying the whole second half of the year, you know, it's going to come together and you're going to see playoff carry. Well, playoff Kyrie sucked. That last game, he did not try. There was no effort in that last game.

Wouldn't you rather have Kemba Walker than Kyrie Irving? Oh, a thousand times out of a thousand. A thousand times out of a thousand. Yeah, I'm trying to look at it from Kyrie's end, trying to figure out what happened, because obviously it was the year from hell for him too. And even when he went to that season ticket holder thing,

he phrased it really carefully where he said, and I'd love to come back here if you'll have me. So you could argue he didn't technically lie because it doesn't seem like the Celtics fans will have him, so he's going to leave. I don't think does it make the Celtics fans will have him. So he's going to, I don't think he was, well, I don't think he was put together enough to carefully have worded his response. Who knows?

Maybe we're underestimating him. I think his intent was he was coming back and he got the cheers that he was looking for. And, you know, you and I, I remember we were at the masters last year when we got the word that Kyrie wasn't going to be able to play in the playoffs remember yeah yeah and we we both said oh that's

that's the end of our playoff run which had really just not hadn't even we're just ready to begin and we went as far as we went and again there, there was such, I don't think I've had as much anticipation for a Celtics season as maybe 2009-10 when we went to the finals. And, you know, it's just awful the whole season. And I don't mind, It's a combination of things. I think he influenced other players in such a negative way. I think they disliked playing with him so much. And our offense never

flowed. Guys were in the wrong spots, taking the wrong kind of shots. Well, I think it's not even just a basketball thing. I think when you have somebody who's unhappy and who's up and down, it's hard to overstate how much that influences other people. Now, if you have another couple people in there who are also unhappy,

then it becomes a tsunami of unhappiness. Well, I agree. I mean, I think the whole premise of your book of basketball had to do with chemistry and camaraderie. The secret, yeah. And we had none of that. So it's certainly no surprise that Milwaukee knocked us out of the playoffs. And that the team quit as soon as it had the chance to quit,

the team rolled over. That was the really frustrating thing. Especially the last two games, the team was just dying to roll over. Game five was one of the all-time easiest bets probably ever. I mean, the line was pretty high, but there was no chance that Celtics team was going to have any fight.

I do think there's a world in which he goes, I said this to Mark Stein, where he goes to Brooklyn and he's really great for them for like four months. And everybody's going, wow. Obviously it was Boston's fault. Yeah, I agree with you. Because a lot like what happened after he left Cleveland

and came to the Celts, Hayward got hurt. And then remember the Celts won 16 straight and he was kind of incredible to watch and was saying all the right things and leading by example. And like he does have it in him. That's really the craziest thing about him. He's not, you know, Sidney Wicks, Curtis Rowe, Sidney Wicks was a loser.

He was a loser everywhere he went. You know, he, he was the number one pick in the draft in Portland and was a loser for seven years. Sidney Wicks for that reason, it had to do with the, the way that fans. Oh no, I'm with you. I'm saying like Wicks was kind of irredeemable. Kyrie has actually had really good moments and really good stretches. I think that was the most confounding thing about it. He was up and down, but the downs were really down and the ups were really up. I think one of his biggest mistakes was

if he had just played ball and instead of filling, apparently, this obligation to become, take on this leadership role and the other players didn't respond to that role, maybe if he just played ball, because he, you know, that first year, he's a spectacular player when he feels like it. But he has no leadership skills.

And the more he seemed to try to influence other players, the more everybody's game went down the tube. So maybe if he goes to Brooklyn and he just plays ball, they'll see a different Kyrie, but I don't know about that. Eventually, I see the whole thing blowing up again. Yeah, I feel that way as well. I will say, one of the five most talented Celtics we've ever had. We didn't get KG at his apex. He was still an amazing top seven, top eight guy, but we didn't see him

like 2004 KG, anything like that. Well, I qualify, you're talking about plays that we saw in person, right? Yeah,

I'm saying just Celtics guys that, he was certainly one of the most talented. He wasn't on the, at least these last two years, he wasn't on like the bird level

or the, you know, the Cowan's Havacek level, anything like that. But he really't on like the bird level or the, you know, the Cowan's have a check level, anything like that. But he, he really had all the tools. He was just an astounding player to watch. I thought he shot much better when he was on Cleveland than he did for the

Celtics. His three point shot, you know, I know people always throw Isaiah Thomas in this discussion, but I was much more confident when Isaiah Thomas took a three than I was when Kyrie took a three. And I'm certainly going to be more confident if we have Kimball Walker,

because he's deadly. He kills us, and he's like a good teammate. Here's where the stats people, though, would tell you that Kyrie shot the three better than Kimball Walker. Yeah, but I was at the games and the ones he made, the ones he made were not in crunch time. He's 40% shooter last year from three. I know what you mean though.

Like you, you felt like in the moment you didn't trust him for whatever reason. You just had a feeling. In the moment I didn't trust him. You're right. I trusted him more if he went to the basket and he stopped doing that in the playoffs. Maybe he had already made a decision to move on. He just didn't want to get hurt. He was throwing up those awful jump shots. It does seem like a recurring theme in NBA history is when the guy knows they have one foot out the door, it does affect them in the playoffs.

Yeah, it affects them. He stops playing that go-to-the-rim basket. Rozier did the same thing, by the way. I guess my other nightmare is they re-sign Rozier and he's our point guard next year. I mean, they have two holes, and I don't think they can fill both holes with the amount of money they have.

They either pick a point guard or they pick a center. Well, you would like a Brogdon-Looney combo? Is that a backup plan for you? What about Vucevic? I like Vucevic, however you say his name. The only problem is if we get him, I'll never say his name correctly. But I thought he came in and killed us a couple times. He came in and he had good stats all season.

I know he had a career year and a contract year, so you and I always kind of shake our heads when that happens, but I like his game. It's kind of old school. I'm not sure what's the biggest need, bringing in a center or bringing in a point guard,

because they're both going to get max contracts, don't you think? Yeah. I think you would call him Vooch. Wouldn't you just call him Vooch? Yeah, I'd call him Vooch. Vooch? What country is he from? Whatever I say, if I'm wrong,

people are going to be mad at me for 10 years. Whatever country he's from, we could call him the guy from somewhere, wherever he's from. I don't even know how to say his name. Why can't you just call him Vooch? I can call him Vooch. If we could get Vooch and Brogdon, because Brogdon's not going to get Max. I like Brogdon.

I'd be very happy with those two additions. Very, very happy. I'm trying to think other... Switzerland. He's from switzerland that's what the internet says yeah yeah switzerland says kyle born in switzerland i think he's raised in belgium raised in belgium yeah i think he's croatian but born or his family's croatian something like that um whatever i'm trying to think of the top five boston athletes we've had that you've just struggled the most pronunciation wise with with. Krejci was definitely one of them.

I probably just said his name wrong now. Krejci. On the Bruins? We've had some bad ones. Yeah. I don't know how to say his name. He's the second line center that we've watched for years and years and years and years. But Krejci.

Krejci's his name. All right. So let me throw this at you and then we're going to go. They somehow get Kemba. Then patch together some sort of whatever, some veteran center. Can they get, can they get Kemba and the guy from Golden State?

Looney? No, no, I don't think that's realistic, but let's say Kemba. And then they patch together some center thing, and they get Tyson Chandler and just some old veterans for the minimum and then figure it out later.

Are you excited that you've already paid for your season tickets at that point? Yes. Yes, definitely. Okay. Definitely. We still have talent on that team. Yeah. We just have – in that team. We need the right point guard, because it's a different kind of league, obviously, nowadays. I like all our wings, but yeah, I'd be excited.

Any summer advice for Jason Tatum before we go? Two things. First, don't answer the phone if your caller ID says Kobe Bryant. Okay. The second advice is practice all summer driving to the basket. Just go to the hoop.

Those two things. Go to the hoop. Yeah, your up and unders. Anything where you're near the hoop. Those two things. Go to the hoop. Practice your up and unders. Anything where you're near the rim. Anything where you get fouled. Yeah, get some fouls. The guy's a good foul shooter. He didn't go to the line this year.

He was driving me crazy. We had a lot of jump shooters this year. It was kind of frustrating. I know. Well, that was why I got bummed out. We took Romeo Langford. Whether he's talented and is a great upside pick or not,

the big thing with him was ball stopper. I watch his YouTube clip. He goes to the basket. He does. He got free throws last year. Yeah, so I'm on board. I'm not on board. Well, I didn't like the pick.

I didn't like the pick either. He was Mr. Basketball in Indiana. He played hurt all year, which I think the Celtics actually really appreciated that he could have just shut it down. He would have been a top 10 pick, but he kept playing with an injured thumb, basically the same injury Smart had.

So that affected his shooting. The thing I didn't like was he's a little black hole-ish. And I feel like we already have a team of black holes. Or at least we did last year. Maybe that's going to flip. I don't think a rookie can... Well, he's just not going to play next year. And whether he plays down the road. That's why I made the G League joke. But it seems like that Grant Williams is going to be your kind of guy. I think he is going to be my kind of guy. I think he is going to be my kind of guy. That is, he brings all the stuff to the table you like.

The thing about the Indy guy and the other guy, I was thinking if this is three years from now and high school players can come out, right. Yeah. He was the fourth or fifth top ranked ESPN high school player coming out of high school. Yeah. But he would have been a top six pick. Right. Bull Bull was the same, though, and he went 44. Yeah.

I mean, there'll be a lot in three years or two years, whenever it happens, if high school players can come out, there are going to be a lot of mistakes made. Because these players show different skills or skill sets or levels of confidence in freshman year in college. And this guy's a good example. Now, maybe the thumb killed him all year. I hope so.

I would love if I was wrong about that pick and he was awesome. I do think that they've done... It is a draft tactic Danny's used before. Because they did that with Avery Bradley, too. Remember? They took him 19th, but he was the year before was like the number three guy in high school. Right.

So they, they've done this. I mean, I look at the ESPN high school list too, of the guys coming out of high school. Right. You'd go into either prep school or college. Um,

and, and it often works out, doesn't always work out, but you know, it you know it's just kind of ironic in three years this kid might have been the fourth pick in the draft coming out of the same situation without going to Indiana

and you and I both love Carson Edwards I love Carson Edwards he'll be a fun heat check guy potentially we never pick a guy like that you and I always say other teams come in the garden, they have a Carson Edwards kind of heat check guy that we can't stop shooting jump shots.

Right. And I'm looking forward to watching that guy play. That got a wow from Kyle. Carson Edwards? Yeah. Definitely. Kyle, one shining podcast producer. He won the tournament or something like that.

It was nuts. Yeah, he does have a sneaky one on one from 26 feet against the eventual champion I loved watching him that pick I hate when we trade back and I didn't like that trade it made more sense after it became clear

what the reason for the trade was was that they were creating well they looked at it and he was still sitting there, I think. Because the Globe had him as a top 25 pick. Yeah, I gotta say, I've had some time to calm down. I don't hate the draft anymore. Turns out I overreacted. Wow, that never happens.

I should just not be allowed on... It's supposed to be the first time you overreacted. I just shouldn't be allowed on Twitter during a draft. I was too tense. It was too important. We took Romeo Langford. I was like, what the fuck? He shot 27% from three, but there were real reasons for it. So I feel better. I've come around. That's why I'm a

true homer. I've talked myself into that. I need a couple of days, but I've talked myself into it. All right. So long, Kyrie. Yeah, me too. So long, Kyrie. We're looking forward to the Patriots season. Lock us in for 12 and four, and we'll talk to you later in the summer. All right, talk to you.

All right, we are going to bring in Michael K. Williams in one second. Wanted to remind you about the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find just some awesome basketball-related podcasts as we head into one of the craziest 96-hour, 120-hour, whatever stretches that we're going to have on June 30th against all odds with Cousin Sal.

They'll be breaking down all the bets you can possibly make. This podcast, Ryan Russillo, I think is going to be on Thursday. And then next week, too, as we react to a lot of the stuff, the Ringer NBA show. You probably already subscribed to that one, but if you don't, I don't know why you wouldn't. Winging it with Vince Carter and Kent Bazemore trying to

get to the bottom of this. Kent Bazemore got traded. I love this podcast. He got traded straight up for Evan Turner. What happens? What do we do? Do we form a second Kent Bazemore podcast? Do we bring Evan Turner in as the new co-host? I don't know.

A lot of decisions to be made here on the Ringer Podcast Network. And then the JJ Reddick podcast. Rumor has Zach Lowe coming in this week to talk to JJ. And by the way, JJ is going to be a free agent too. I don't know where the hell he's going to be going. There's rumors he's going to stay in Philly.

There's rumors of him in Brooklyn. There's a rumor going around about him in New Orleans. I guess he'll have to settle in the JJ Reddick podcast. And then one more thing, the Dave Chang show, I actually went on that. I think that's running this week or next week or something like that, but I hadn't been on in a while

and went in a whole bunch of directions. So that was awesome. All right, there you go. Ringer Podcast Network. Go to theringer.com or go to Apple or go to Spotify if you want to check out all of our podcasts right now

Michael K. Williams here he is Michael K. Williams is here we did this on my HBO show briefly like three years ago

I remember that yeah yeah but we didn't have a full sit down so I'm glad we're doing this I came on there with Christina Hendricks yeah

but now we're going to do the full sit down. You have When They See Us is on Netflix right now. It is not a miniseries. It's not a TV show. It's not a movie. What is it?

A limited TV series. A limited TV series. There you go. All the terminology is so complicated now. What kind of feedback are you getting for this? It's been awesome. It's been actually humbling. The main feedback I've been really having a hard time with are my friends, my peers.

They call me, my brothers from other mothers, as we say. And it's woken up their trauma that I didn't know that they had. They may not have known that they had. And so I'm getting these phone calls with all this pain and I don't know what to say. That makes me feel helpless. And all I can do is just sit there and listen. Yeah. Yeah.

I remember when this story happened. I was actually spending the summers in Connecticut at that point. And obviously, it's a huge story in the tri-state area. And they were writing about it. And it seemed incredibly unfair. And then, you know, like everything else, it goes away after the trial. Then there was a documentary about it, I think,

2011, 2012 by Ken Burns that was really good. It was one of those things that kind of would come around every few years, and people would go, oh, yeah, that was really unfair. That's terrible. I wish that hadn't happened. And then it moves on to the next thing. And now with this

netflix series limited tv series and the scope of it now it feels like it's getting the proper treatment i would say yeah i think so because you know we have some distance i think we're better at recognizing some of the code words. Like there's a really good scene in the first episode when Felicity Huffman's character, the DA, she's explaining how she's got to get these guys and she's using like animals and just these words that I feel like now people are so conditioned to tense up when they hear any sort of code, anything.

It's really effective at how it does that. You know, unfortunately, that's not the case from my view. You know, my kids, when I say my kids, I mean the young people from my community because it takes a village. So I own all my kids, the good, bad, and the ugly, because I was once the bad and the ugly. So just as recently as the Baltimore riots, I remember being infuriated because the then mayor of the city, she went on national news and she called her kids animals. And it just struck a chord. How many years ago was that? The Baltimore riots, we're talking like four years ago. Yeah.

And I remember hearing her refer to the kids in her community from her city as animals. And it just didn't make me feel good. I've had a few choice words for her in that moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, you're on the parent side in this one. Yes, I am. I play Bobby McRae.

He was Antron's father. Do you worry about the type of characters you play? Like you tend to be on this side or this side, on the right. Usually, like even in the night of, you're in jail. The Wire, you're Omar. You tend to be more the bad guy in this one. Whenever you go against type with that, I'm always more interested to see you as the parent.

I was like, all right, this is good. You know, I never really, I haven't looked at my, my, my resume in regards to good and bad.

They're all humans. And unfortunately, and sometimes fortunately, I know all these characters from my community. So when I look at my, my, my, my wreckage, my past is we call a resume. So when I look at my wreckage of my past, as we call a resume, I see different community

narratives. So it's like a mosaic of people you've run into over the decades. I would say so. Yeah. Yeah. What drew you to this role? The story. To finally be a part of these men finally getting a chance to tell their truth, to tell the truth. And I know the story.

I was there in New York when it happened, and it could have easily have been me. Easily. My mom and me in that interrogation room. And then last but not least, it was Ava DuVernay, you know, and not just because it was Ava DuVernay, but it was Ava DuVernay. Yeah. And if you know her, you know what I'm talking about. If you had a chance to talk with her, you know, we sat down in New York over lunch and we talked about the climate and the climate in the city at the time and what it was like for me and in my relationship to the story. And I thought that,

you know, I was pretty secure that I had the gig. Right. So I was like, OK, who gets the bill? I have to see on the set. She goes, oh, no, no, no. Now let's talk. I'm like, what do you want to know? She says, who are you? And I was like, I didn't prepare for that question. What do you mean, who am I? And the conversation went on a different trajectory. It got real, real quick. And I don't know, I left the meeting feeling not as confident as I went in. I didn't know if I had the gig or not.

And it was in some of the things that we spoke about in that part of the conversation that I realized I had gotten a little lazy. And I had gotten a little jaded, you know, jumping from gig to gig and not taking care of myself. And I said, you know, if she gives me an opportunity to be a part of this journey, I'm going to really, really make it count. And when they see us, for me, on a personal level, outside of my relationship to the story, just as an actor in this business, it kind of renewed my vows with the craft and the reasons why I do what I do. So who are you? I am a man from my community who cares about my community, who wants to use my platform to be a part of something positive in my community. Is that what you told Ava? Well, no, not in that moment. I had to go find that answer.

Yeah. I didn't know that. So that made you question what the answer was. Yes, I had to, which is, well, question your answers. All right. Shout out to the Atlantic. Yes, I had to question my answers because I didn't know. And, you know, like my catalog of work, where I look at my body and who I am now as a man and my personal life and what I do in my community and the impact I aim to have in my community, that all started to wake up right around, you know of having purpose, of being of service.

And when they see us, was the boot in the back that just kicked me over the edge. There's no turning back for me. So you played Omar, one of the most iconic characters, I would say, in the history of HBO. Thank you. The president says it's his favorite character ever. All that stuff's going on. I've asked you this before, but I'm going to repeat it. The baggage of that as you try to find new roles and stuff,

how long did it take to shake out of that, of people just thinking like, oh, that's Omar? I didn't care. I was too ignorant to care about any of that. I just, you know, I was happy to be there, happy to be working. All of that stuff, I didn't have the knowledge of what that meant to even wear that. So my ignorance kind of saved me. Yeah.

In regards to President Obama making that remark about his admiration for the wire and the character of Omar, that put me on blast. That frightened me. I think he said it to me. It was an interview I did with him. Remember, we talked about this. I was in the White House. I did the first ever podcast with him. And he started talking about that.

And then he was like, yeah, my favorite character is Omar. I was like, what? That was, yo. Okay, when I heard it, I was in an interview with Terry Rhodes from Fresh Air. And it was like

the HBO media people were running in and it was like, it was like almost like breaking news for this little show called The Wire on HBO. And I remember-

I think it was me. I hope I'm not taking credit for it. I'm pretty sure it was me. Yeah. I mean, we're going to say it now, right? It was you think it was me. I hope I'm not taking credit for it. I'm pretty sure it was me. Yeah. I mean, we're going to say it now, right? It was you. It was Bill.

I hope it's not debunked after the fact that it was somebody else. I know we talked about The Wire and I could have sworn he said you were his favorite character, but maybe I'm imagining it. No. Well, we'll just edit it out if it wasn't me. But I do remember it was a big deal. It was. The fact that he loved The Wire kind of in its own way felt like a big deal.

Well, it was. Because I felt like it made him more real to somebody like me. It was like, oh, that dude's watching the same TV shows that I like. Can you imagine what it did for someone like me who lived in that community that The Wire depicted? So I was like, oh, he sees me. You know, so even though I'm on television and my career is starting to bud, I felt like, I still felt invisible, you know, getting back to when they see us, you know.

I still felt like no one really saw me. They only saw, you know, what I portray on television. I still felt that at that point, my voice didn't matter. Who cares what I think about anything? So therefore, I was very ignorant to the way things run into my community in regards to local office leaders and things of that nature. I definitely wasn't voting. Who cares about my vote? And so that's who I was when President Obama said that about me. So then I was,

so two things happened. I was like, okay, he, he, he must care. He must see me if he's watching the wire. He, he must care about things that are going on in my community. And then it made me want to listen to him and care about things that was going on in his world, which was affecting my world. So it made me grow up and to take responsibility for my lack of being present, my lack of not voting, my lack of not caring about who my local politicians were. I learned all of that by listening to him speak. So going way backwards, you got into acting late. Yes, very late. And is it fair to say you bounced around in your teens and 20s trying to figure out what you're going to do with life? Well, yeah, very fair.

So, okay, when they see us, I was about 21, 22, and I was in rehab. Late 80s. Late 80s. I was definitely 89. I'm sorry. I was in my first rehab for drug addiction. So that's who I was. You know, I came out of that and I just, you know, I fell into the arts.

It was the, you know, dancing was the first thing that I liked to do that held my attention. And I found that I could actually make some sort of a living at it. So by the time The Wire came around, I was so happy just being a background dancer. That was my joy. And you were in your late 30s at that point? Well, I was in, yeah, but I had stopped dancing in my late 20s. I was in my early 30s when The Wire came around, 32, I think. I stopped dancing like 27, 28.

I had been on a few gigs and started to book. Everybody was calling me the dark skin, the bald-headed dark skin guy with the scar on his face. So that was my MO. That was why I was being typecasted for, as you were alluding to earlier. That was frightening because it got old real quick. And I was like, if I'm getting bored with being called the bald-headed dark skin guy with the scar on his face, they're going to start getting tired of calling me that. And I knew that I needed to get substance. So I got really lucky and got introduced to the off-Broadway theater world in New York City, like La Mama, La Mama Theater in Lower East Side, National Black Theater up in Harlem.

And then I got with a theater company called Theater for a New Generation, my director, Mel Williams from Philadelphia. And that's when things really started to click you could send me on anything and i would book it and then all of a sudden the phones went dead for like two years i couldn't book a job if you threw it at me and then i started going into these auditions with all this this anxiety like my life depends on thug number three if i don't get the role of you know of scary guy on the corner number four, I'm going to die. And I was like, this is not the right energy to come into these rooms with. So I thought that maybe the ship had sailed. And I went to work with my mom in the daycare that she built in the projects that we still lived in.

And I was like, yo, mom, I need a gig. And she hired me and I was grateful. And I put my all into it and so all that was for like two years 9 11 happened and in october of 2001 i was in my apartment in the projects and um i turned on my television playing some music getting high and um there i go my episode of sopranos pops the television. So I'm looking around my apartment and I'm looking at myself and I'm seeing myself on the television.

And I'm like, one of these pictures is not cool. Yeah, yeah. And I went to my mom and I said, listen, I want to give it one more shot. That was in, that was October. I said, actually, lend me some some money i need to reinvent my package new headshots they were doing this new thing called the real that i heard i think i might

make a real and uh she got she lent me the money and i did that that was october by march she calls me i was upstairs um she calls me and um and which by the way i was also in a depression um i didn't deal with 9-11 very well. I was on medication for that crap and all that shit. So that was the mind that I was in. And she calls me one day, come downstairs. There's a fax for you, right? It was the breakdown for Omar.

And that was in March. I put myself on tape one time for Alexa Fogel for the role of Omar. And the next time she called me, she was telling me to go pick up my tickets to go to Amtrak, to go to Baltimore to report to work. I didn't know that story. That's amazing. Why did 9-11? What happened? I mean, beyond the usual stuff.

I saw that with my naked eye. The night before, my mom's from the Bahamas and so I'm first generation. My cousin was here visiting. He was slated to leave that morning. So that night we drove around the city. Just, you know, he's a construction worker in the Bahamas. So he was fascinated how the buildings were so high above the clouds.

He was like, yo, Mike, tell me that building stops right there. That's not going past the clouds. Like, you know, the Twin Towers and Empire State. But I was like, yo, Mike, tell me that building stops right there. That's not going past the clouds. Like, you know, the Twin Towers and Empire State Building. I was like, nah, Foote State, they go past that. So we got in my car that night, September 10th, and in an attempt to buy observation tickets, at first we went to the Empire State Building. They said no.

Then we drove downtown and went to the Trade Tower. And I was trying to buy tickets that night so we can beat the line because he was leaving that morning. So the goal was we'll get the tickets tonight, take you to see the observatory deck, and then drive you to the airport. You go home.

So you were going to be there that morning? Yes, sir. And we went to Twin Towers. And my cousin said, Mike, don't waste your money. Because I might want to stay a little longer. He says, let me make some phone calls. If I can change my ticket to stay longer without being too expensive, then we'll come back to the city, go to the Twin Towers. Then we're going to go see his dad who lived in Maryland.

Just go through the Highland Tunnel and go up the, you know, he's on down the road. We get up that next morning and then it happened. And I remember that week, the weeks to follow, on any given day when the wind would shift, you could still smell, like at least two weeks past, you could smell the burning flesh and the air. And I remember being on my roof in the project, seeing the second plane go in. And I said, footy, I said, I think these buildings are going to drop. He says, no, boy, that's steel. Steel don't bend.

You can't burn steel. And I think maybe 30, 40 minutes after he said that, those buildings were down. And we just sat there and watched. So you could see the whole thing from where you were? Yes, sir. You had a clear view to the Twin Towers.

Did you know the second plane, did you know it was going to go into the building? Like at that point, were you even thinking terrorism? I didn't know anything. Well, when the second plane hit, I didn't actually see it flying.

I just saw the big poof. And then I was like, what happened? And then my mom. Yeah, then you realized. It was so much. A second plane just hit because people were freaking out. And that's when we started hearing. There was so much. A second plane just hit because people were freaking out.

And that's when we started hearing that it was a terror. That's the first time I heard the word terrorist attack. It was in that moment. I remember watching on TV the second one, assuming the first one was like an accident, right? Every one. Yeah, and you're like, man, I can't believe that happened. And then that second one was coming toward the building. I was like, wait a second.

I remember waking up that morning and turning on the news and seeing the image. You want to know what my first thought was? I don't remember the scene from Towering Inferno. I just dated myself, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember Towering Inferno? I'm like, I don't remember this scene in Towering Inferno. It was my favorite movie.

I don't remember this scene. What is this? This looks too new. Did they re-ed Inferno. It was my favorite movie. I don't remember this scene. What is this? This looks too new. Did they re-edit it? That's where my mind went. Towering Inferno. God. So then Omar changed your life then?

Yes, he did. Yes, he did. How much of it was, how much of the characters did you try to create versus what was written for it? Like what was the balance? I knew that— Was it a blank slate that you worked with David Simon?

No, no, no. What was it? No, no. David Simon, Ed Burns, there was no blank slating going on over there. I mean, right down to the whistle, everything. So they had all that stuff? All of that was there. The only thing I can say I brought to the table was I was determined

to not have Omar sound like a dude from Brooklyn. I immediately heard this different dialect. It was like- Oh, the Baltimore dialect. Yeah, man. It was rich. And it was immediate. There was no like-

You heard that and you knew that. Can you do it on command now or was that something you had to work at? Work at what? What are you talking about? Do tell. How long did it take to get that? About two to three years. If you really listen to me in season one and two,

I come in and out. There are certain words that you could tell. It was in there to the to the untrained ear yeah but to baltimoreans they could hear me coming in and out it wasn't until um season three it just started to really i just got it was in my pocket by season three was that character super popular right away or did it did it take uh two seasons because i don't remember the arc of it i don't neither you know know, I was just so... I remember by like season three

it was the thing. It got really... Yeah. It felt like you were like... It was like Kramer and Seinfeld where every time we were in a scene it was like, oh my God,

there he is. He's back. Someone's going to die. Someone's going to die. Someone's going to get robbed. Someone's going to die. I didn't... You know,

I was... I remember... I was too... I remember being concerned about his sexual orientation being an issue in my community. I was really worried about that. Was it an issue? No. I mean, that was one of the things that was so revolutionary about the character.

I think it actually helped my community heal because, you know, homophobia was rampant, is rampant still. I think that Omar helped men, heterosexual men from my community look at homosexuality or otherness from them in a different light. They had a way, Omar gave them a way to respect men that didn't live sexual lives the way they did. Yeah. That makes sense. And that's something you'd been, you'd been more, everything I've read about you were super comfortable in all kinds of circles, like your whole life.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, my, um, I, you know, my, my, my best friend, my homie, the one that taught me how to navigate through the streets of Brooklyn, is a lesbian named Robin. She fought for me. She beat up quite a few dudes for me. And she taught me how to toughen up. So, yeah, a woman taught me how to be a man. A gay woman. Wow.

So you had, we were talking when you came in about there was no great wire poster. There's been some good ones, not a great one. But you said there was one giant Omar poster. That's like, not many of them are out there. But you have one of them. I have one in hopes to auction it off for charity for making kids win my organization. I run with my nephew, Dominic. And the quote is, you come with the king, you best not miss.

That's the quote in the poster. And it's season one where he's getting ready to rob the kids in the alleyway with him and his lover, Brandon. They set him up. And it's the first time we hear Omar say the line, the cheese stands alone. It's in that scene right before that robbery. That's the poster shot.

I'll be finding that one on eBay. This is one of my rare skills is I can find weird shit on eBay. You're going to make me give you a ride, man. You're going to make me give you a ride. I'm fine on this. No, no, no, I'm fine. Yeah, I don't need, I want you to auction yours off. That sounds a great poster.

And you have the overcoat. Yes, I do. I have Omar's trench. David and Ed and Nina, you know, that was a rough day at the office, needless to say. And they gifted it to me. They put it in this airtight gold encasing box. And his birth date is the run of the show from 2002 to 2008. And it's beautiful.

When did you get that script? Did you know it was going to end for him? Or did you think he was going to get through this series? No, David was very, very upfront about that. He didn't lead you on. So he called me and he told me about it. And so I was able to go to work with this mindset that't you know he didn't lead you on so he called me and he told me about it and um so i i was able to go to work with this mindset that you know it was a weird day everyone was like let's just get through this day we are not going to sit here and start getting emotional and

mourning a fictitious character right that it was that awkward elephant in the room all this like and um i had a break between takes and they had to cover me up at one point because they didn't want the community to get the spoiler alert that Omar had been shot. So I had to cover up all the gun wounds to the head to go back and forth. And I was in my trailer, I looked in the mirror with the gun wound and I just blanked. I just got i got stuck it wasn't i wasn't crying i just got i went numb because it was coming to an end man i was like you know i was a corny kid growing up i got picked on a lot and all of a sudden the same kid who would probably call me sissy mike and take my lunch money was like dude i love you yeah i was was like, you was going to kill me just two, three years ago.

So anyway, that Superman cape, that false love, that false feeling of pride was being stripped away every moment we shot that scene that day. And when the reality of that hit me, I was in my trailer alone. I just went, I went numb. Like, damn, I got to go back to Michael. Yeah, that sucks. And the wardrobe, Donna, she walks in,

the wardrobe, the costume designer, excuse me, Donna, she walks in to like a change or something. And she, you know, I would let people walk in my trailer. I didn't, you'd have to knock for me. She came in my good, and she looked at my, at me sitting at the desk and she dropped everything and she grabbed me

and she says, uh-uh, we not doing this today. Don't even go there. Pull this shit together. Excuse my language. And she just like, she snapped me out of it. And that was it.

So after the show ends Omar lives on which you probably didn't realize at the time and then you're you're out and about you're wherever you are and people must mention that character to you constantly celebrities I mean you run into basketball players or boxers that must be the first thing they say right it's It's an honor. Yes, it is. Out of 10 people, seven of them will call me Omar. Or they'll just yell out, Omar coming. You must get a lot of Omar coming. I get a lot of Omar coming. I mean, really.

That dude, man. So after that, doing a whole bunch of stuff, I thought the night Of was fucking awesome. Thank you. I really liked it. And I think in a weird way, it remodeled the way HBO thinks about some of their shows now. And then what we're talking about with Netflix, where these six episodes, seven episodes, four episodes, they're not really fully a TV series. But you go into this world anyway for a few weeks,

and then you're out. And now they're doing it right now with Big Little Lies, and Netflix did it when they see us, but it just seems like this is a new model, and I feel like it started with The Night Of. Steven Zillion, he's a genius. Yeah. You know, he beat me up,

which was much needed for that type of heavy lifting. He created this world that was just, it was incredible on that set. You felt like you were really in prison. And I got a glimpse into what my nephew, Dominic Dupont, must have endured for 20 years of his life. And it was, yeah, Shout out to Steven Zell. And your character was unclear most of the time what direction he was going to go in. Well, yeah.

You never knew how sinister it was going to get, but you knew it was kind of lingering. You know, I can only imagine that's the thin line you have to ride in prison. And I modeled Freddie Knight after my nephew, Dominic. And not to say that my nephew was manipulative like that, but my nephew had this type of charisma. Freddie Knight was very charismatic, and he could pull you in real easy. You get sucked into him.

He's intoxicating. And my nephew has that same type of characteristics in his characteristic traits in his demeanor. And so I based a lot of that savviness on him. But then he just, he has this dark side with his addiction, with his, you know, he's a bit of a manipulator. Yeah. And that, you know, that's not so cool. Do you think Hollywood is doing a good enough job

telling the stories of your community right now? I think the tide is changing. It feels like it's getting better, right? Yeah, but more importantly, to put all that pressure and responsibility just in Hollywood's hands, I think it's time for us to also step up and take some of that. And like, you know, us as a community, as my actors in this Hollywood community, I think it's time now we need to start making it, demanding that our stories be told more that more diversity which is already happening you know we need more writers everybody doesn't doesn't need to be an actor you know when i talk

to young people of color that want to get into this business they don't do it the way i did i came in here just only wanting desiring to be in front of the camera you are you are so much more powerful when you own your content. Write and tell your story. Tell your truth. Read a book. Option it. Bring that to the table. Come with something more than just your pretty face because that gets old quick. Trust me, I know. So it's time for that. It's a great, the temperature in Hollywood is just right for that type of conversation to be having. So I put some of the responsibility back in our community in regards to telling our narrative in Hollywood. What'd you learn from your Boardwalk Empire experience?

Man. What kind of chicks did you pick up? Oh, please. But first of all, I mean, Boardwalk Empire was a boys club, you know, and the nickname for the club was Buscemi and the Michaels. Like you had to be named Michael to be on the show. There were like nine Michaels in the cast.

Shout out to all my Michaels from Boardwalk Empire. But what I learned on that show was just class on another level. Steve would send me, he showed me what a star really looks like. I never saw him complain. I never saw him yawn. He was never late. He would, if you needed him just for eyeline, would stay um i mean that type of of gracious graciousness and and and it's just i don't see that a lot now in days everybody's you know we're all about me me me but steve buscemi is a class act and what i learned just from watching him how he interacted with the crew with the other castmates made, make himself always available and accessible.

I strive to be like that now in the shows that I'm on with my coworkers. And as you know, I'm on another HBO show called Lovecraft Country. And yeah, I take my cue from Steve. Give us the 20-second synopsis of that one, the new one. So there was a writer. I think he's known to be the first science fiction writer. His name is H.P. Lovecraft. He wrote a series of books

that kind of resemble the Twilight Zone, if you will. And his world that he created lives in Jim Crow America and monsters from outer space. And he tells, and we see this world through this family,

this very, very, very dysfunctional family. And that is called Lovecraft Country. So when does this one come out? We're in Atlanta right now filming. We, our first day of production is June 10th. Oh, nice. You catch Atlanta, right, for when it's a hundred degrees. Oh yeah, they call it the wall. Nothing nice. You catch Atlanta, right, for when it's 100 degrees. Oh, yeah.

They call it the wall. Nothing like July Atlanta. Atlanta, right? Really sexy. Lose 10 pounds of sweat. Come here, baby. Feel this sweat. When did you film in Baltimore?

That must have been a lot of summers too, right? Yeah. Baltimore's not like a walk in the park. Season two was actually in the winter. I remember one day my mouth froze. I had to practice that. My mouth literally froze. I never had that experience before

until season two of The Why, but the rest of them were all shot in the summer. Not cold in the summer. No, it's not, but you know, it's humid. It was humid. But the main thing I remember about

filming in the summers in Baltimore are the cicada seasons. Okay, you don't talk about the cicadas. The first time I saw them, I almost jumped into the Baltimore Harbor. Like, the world is ending. The sky is falling. The sky is falling. Have you ever seen cicadas when they come? They're the most gentle bugs, but they'll literally fly in your mouth.

They're that ignorant. Like literally fly in your mouth. You're screaming to the world. The world is coming to an end. How do you feel about what's happened in Brooklyn in the last 15 years? You know, it's bittersweet. I, you know, full disclosure, I live in a very nice, safe, pretty, white neighborhood. Nothing like Vanderveer Projects. I do long a little bit.

I long for the old New York. You know, we've got, New York has got a little bit, a little too sensitive for me. Sometimes I think the town could use an enema. But what really I'm concerned about is all the displacement that's going on with the gentrification. You know, where are people being put? You know, what does Brownsville look like these days? What does East New York look like these days? What does the South Bronx look like these days? What does East New York look like these days? What does the South Bronx look like these days?

Where are these people going who can't afford the high rents? And that disturbs me a little bit sometimes. So when Amazon went there in that moment when it seemed like they were coming in, what was that part of? Me personally, I was team Amazon, man. I mean, that equaled jobs. A lot of jobs in the community that people, I know a lot of people could have used. You know, my elevator doesn't go that high

in regards to what the higher ups or the local politicians, why they voted against it. But from my view, that translated into a lot of jobs for people that could have really used it. I was sorry to see that deal fall through. So you feel like Brooklyn still into a lot of jobs for people that could have really used it. I was sorry to see that deal fall through. So you feel like Brooklyn still has a lot of the soul that it had 20 years ago? Oh, yes. Their pockets.

Oh, yeah. You could go to Brooklyn and still, like, Coney Island still feels like Coney Island. Shout out to Spumoni Gardens, you know what I mean? L&B's. Yeah. You know, there's still pockets of Brooklyn that still feel like Brooklyn. It feels like the entire internet lives there. Everybody who writes

and does a podcast. Yeah, we can thank Jay-Z for that. He made Brooklyn so friggin' sexy, now the whole world wants to live in Brooklyn. Don't move to Brooklyn. There's no more space, people. We have like a 20-person ringer office in Brooklyn. Yeah, bro. Because we have all of our people live there.

Probably in the Dumbo area. A lot of offices, right? No, it's in Brooklyn Heights. Brooklyn Heights, yeah. Okay. I don't know Brooklyn that well. Every time I go there, I just get confused the whole time. Man, you come hang out with your big brother.

I got you, man. We go eat, get some good food, get some good Caribbean food. Caribbean food? Yeah, man. Has anybody ever approached you about doing a movie about you? About your life? You've had a pretty interesting life. No, sir.

No? No, sir. You wouldn't do that? No one has approached me about... You don't think he's had an interesting life? Tommy thinks so. Thank you. That's like a half-assed shrug from Tommy.

You know what we'll call it? My cross. My cross to bear. That's like a half-assed shrug from Tommy. You know what we'll call it? My cross. My cross to bear. That's what my mother calls me. My cross to bear. My cross to bear. The Michael K. Williams story. Do you care about the Nets?

Yeah, you know, they're cool. I'm all in. Because you might be getting Kyrie Irving this summer in Brooklyn. Yeah. Good luck with him. I heard Kyrie was going to. No, good luck with Ky summer in Brooklyn. Good luck with him. Art Carr was going to. No, good luck with Kyrie. Seriously.

Good luck with that dude. I'm a Celtic fan. You are? Yeah, we're ready for him to leave. You are? Yeah, he caused a lot of attention. So you're a Knicks fan? I am a Knicks fan.

Yes, I am. Do you go to the games? Yes, I do. What's the Jumbo Tron reaction for you on the video screen? You know, it's always the same clip. The Boardwalk Empire clips and the crowd. I get a lot of love, man. A lot of love.

Do you have the pose? What do you do when the camera's on you for the video screen? I'm always interested in this. Because it always stays on like seven seconds too long. I grab the poor schmuck sitting next to me and I start poking my finger in his face like, yeah, we're here.

We're here right now. Can you see us? Like, dude, his neck is. We're here right now. Can you see us? Like, dude, his neck is like a freaking whiplash. It's just a nervous reaction. This was fun. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much.

It was good to see you again. Good luck with everything. I'm going to find that Omar poster on eBay. Thank you. You keep yours. You sign it. Get all the cash to sign it and put it for your charity.

I think it would do well. I appreciate that. Seriously, I really do think that would do well. I'm going to do that. You should do that. You don't want to. I'm definitely going to do charity. I think it would do well. I appreciate that. Seriously, I really do think that would do well. I'm going to do that. You should do that. You don't want to. I'm definitely going to do it. I'll help you promote that if you do that.

I will. All right. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. All right. Thanks to Mark Stein. Thanks to my dad. Thanks to Michael K. Williams.

Thanks to DAZN. Don't forget to go to DAZN.com to check it out. Thanks to Holada, the tasty new fruit, nut, and seed bar from Cliff Bar. Has all the goodness you want. Pumpkin seeds, almonds, cashews, dried cherries, or ginger. And it has none of the stuff you don't want. Soft-baked, no gluten, soy dairy, or added sugar. None of that stuff.

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