The Bill Simmons Podcast - Buffalo Fever, a WWE Revival, Nets Predictions, Plus a Tim Donaghy Debunking With Ariel Helwani, Logan Murdock, and Sean Patrick Griffin

Episode Date: September 21, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ariel Helwani to discuss the 2-0 Buffalo Bills, whether this team can improve their already loaded roster, the upcoming matchup between the Bills and Dolphins, and more (3:36), before discussing the most exciting UFC fights left in 2022, and WWE's recently improved product (28:44). Then, Bill talks with The Ringer's Logan Murdock about the fast-approaching NBA season and their predictions for the Brooklyn Nets, theories on Kevin Durant's trade request, and more (50:18). Finally, Bill is joined by author and professor of criminology Sean Patrick Griffin to discuss the Netflix documentary, 'Untold: Operation Flagrant Foul,' how the film omits key information from the 2007 NBA betting scandal, and more (1:31:34). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Ariel Helwani, Logan Murdock, and Sean Patrick Griffin Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Would you bet a few thousand dollars that you could sink an eight-foot putt? What about ten grand that you could win a drag race against a Camaro with a thousand horsepower? If you bet two million dollars, could you bet it all on one football game? Maybe you wish you could, but you probably wouldn't. Gamblers is about the people who did. From the Ringer Podcast Network, listen to Gambler Season 2 on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video.

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The ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com.

We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. New rewatchables went up on Monday night. We did Margin Call, me, Rosillo, and Koppelman. It is an awesome movie about the 2008 financial crisis. Check that one out. Tough night for the underdog parlay last night on million dollar picks. We had Miami and Minnesota tied together plus 451 and Kirk Cousins said, I do not like that and absolutely shit the bed in the second half in a really dramatic way. I thought the Vikings defense in the first half was just as bad. I don't understand the coaching at all. It looked like they had nine guys out there at all times. And it looked like both of the safeties were basically drunk.

I didn't get it. I don't know why they were giving the receivers so much space. I thought Aikman did a great job calling all of it out. It was just a bizarre game. You knew right away. It was like, this doesn't feel good. Hurts was fantastic. They covered on the Philly Special podcast with Shil Kapadia and Ben Solak.

Hurts played as bad as well as you can play for three quarters. Tailed off a little bit at the end. But for three quarters was fantastic. That was really a strange game. And I'm moving Minnesota to my do not bet list because how do you know which Cousins is going to show up? Maybe it's just don't bet on them at prime time at all. I'm going to have to make a list of all the do not bets just going forward.

Like another good one was the underdog at home getting more than seven points, which was the Cowboys on Sunday, which we did not put a million dollar picks, the Bengals. But that's another one where it's like home dog, seven points or more, just stay away. So maybe there's a whole stay away list that we can do for a million dollar picks on Thursday. Coming up on this podcast, Tuesday's pod,

very excited for this one. Ariel Hawani is going to talk about the bills and what's happening here and then give us our UFC update as we head into the last three pay-per-views in October, November, December. And then Logan Murdoch, a Durant student. You know, this Durant, the soap opera is done.

So now it's like, well, where do we go going forward? What did all this means? And we're just going to talk about Durant for 20 minutes. What do we expect? How weird is this season going to get for him in the Nets? And last but not least, Sean Griffin is going to come on to talk about Tim Donahue, who has a new Netflix documentary out

that a lot of people have mentioned to me. And I have hit the point, I have never had Donaghy on the podcast. I hate the story. I didn't want to do anything about it, but there is so much misinformation out there now. And Sean Griffin is the single best person. He has been on this story since the late 2000s. He wrote a book called Game in the Game. And he is going to explain us once and for all why this whole Donahue narrative is just full of shit. And we're going to explain what really happened. So I would highly encourage you to stick around for that part of the podcast.

That's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. The King of Buffalo is here. Not Josh Allen. Ariel Hawane, the number one Bills fan on this podcast. Also, you know, the guy with UFC stuff, the king of Spotify Live, which meant you want to do the king of Spotify Live thing? Just get that over with now.

It's a good gimmick. 42,000 or so a couple of weeks ago prior to UFC 279. Wow. I mean, we went six straight hours, Bills. Six straight hours. I was at the airport. We didn't stop the show. We kept on going.

One of the great moments of my career, people still stopping me until this day on the street saying they were listening. They couldn't turn it off. Everyone else, here's the thing. Everyone else tapped out midway and we're like, we are not leaving until this is done. So there was only one place to go, Spotify Live. Amazing. So we got, we got three more UFC cards for the rest of the year and we'll talk about them later. Right now, we're going to talk about the- Pay-per-views. We're going every week. You were worried we wouldn't have enough shows. I think we're at like 80

in the past 12. I'm just saying. I think we've over-delivered at this point. But yes, three pay-per-views, but there's a fight night almost every weekend. The Bills. They win again last night. They look awesome. They're the first game. There's this double header Monday Night Football thing

where at halftime, the Eagles-Vikings game started. And the Bills game was over. It was great. I didn't even have to go into my back house and put the two TVs on because you knew the Bills were done. Bills now, pretty prohibitive favorites to win the Super Bowl.

On Fandle, they're plus 450. It goes to the Chiefs and the Bucks at 7-1. If you're talking about just who's going to be the number one record in the league, they're plus 210. Nobody else is closer than 4-1. And AFCC, they're plus 145. Are you thinking 20-0 deep down? Are you thinking 0-7, Pat? 22 bills, parallels? What are you thinking? First of deep down? Are you thinking 0-7 Pats, 22 Bills, parallels? What are you thinking? First of all, let me just say the fact that you missed the second half,

massive blunder on your part, almost as big as the blunder of putting the Bills on the ESPN game as opposed to the ABC game. I mean, what were they thinking over there in Bristol? That should have been the primetime game if you get what I'm saying.

It's all very hard for me to digest, if I'm being honest, because as you may know, the Pats were actually involved in a lot of these. Every time the Bills used to play on Thursday, Sunday night, or Monday night, they would lose, not just lose, they would get beat pretty bad. And so the idea now, first two games of the season, season opener, first game of the entire NFL season on a Thursday night. They lay the smack down on the defending champs at their home. Wasn't even close.

Wasn't. Is mind blowing. Then they come back on Monday night, home opener. First time they win Monday night at home since 1994 and lay the smack down on last year's number one AFC seed. We all know they weren't a real number one seed, but whatever. I'll take that. And here's the scary part, if I'm being honest. The scary part

is I don't feel like they're playing that well. I actually really don't feel like they're playing at their best. A couple mistakes, tail of two halves, you missed the second half. They're incredible in the second half. First half, very sloppy. I'm scared for the rest of the league. I'm legit scared. Yeah, if you're nitpicking

the running game, I don't think, I don't think anybody feels awesome about that. Although who knows the rookie, I didn't see the second half. The rookie had a big second half run. He was a little bit questionable with the ball in the first game. Cook, you're talking about single Terry's all right. Zach Moss. All right. That's always been, you know, it was the run game and the run defense. We have fixed the run defense now. I mean, the defense is just tremendous. I have never seen, you know, Henry, King Henry, as they call him, look more like Prince. If you asked me last night, he has, you know, given us nightmares over the last two years to see him get stopped in the backfield as many times as he did. What do you have like 12 yards total mind blowing stuff. It's a beautiful,

by the way, that's, that's the Aaron Schatz curse of 370 thing that he's been on for 15 years for our friend of Football Outsiders where Henry just had so much usage there that all football history

says this is bad. You should start shorting this person. Do not spend $60 on this person in Fantasy League. He looked slow last night. I mean, you guys look fast,

but I thought he looked a little more plotting than usual. And I don't have a good feeling for him. Your defense looks, the Von Miller thing, which I kind of overlooked. I got to be honest when I was doing my preseason stuff, because it felt like he was in Denver first half of the season last year.

It's like, whatever, he's on the downside a little bit. Rejuvenated a little on the Rams, playing for a new contract. And I just wasn't buying it. I was like, this feels like a new contract thing. I don't see him with the same kind of eye of the tiger, but it seems like he has it. And that was the one thing you guys needed. We needed that leader on defense. We needed a winner in the locker room. And you know, it's amazing. Like I watch everything. I watch all the post game press conference. It seems like he's having. I watch everything. I watch all the post game press conference. It seems like he's having so much fun. He keeps talking about the atmosphere

and the fans and how happy he is to be there. This is Buffalo, Bill. A guy like Von Miller leaving Hollywood, Los Angeles to go to Buffalo. It's nice now. Let's talk in December, but he's used to this, right? He knows this from Denver. The fact that he even signed with the Bills. I mean, maybe the biggest free agent signing of my lifetime as a Bills fan, a guy like that. Oh, that's an interesting list. Yeah. Who else is even on that list? I guess like the Bledsoe trade?

Nah. Again, we would always get the guys at the end of their run, right? We would get the guy like Terrell Owens. We would get someone like that. Got, you know, a LaShawn McCoy. I believe that was a trade. Point is, we would get guys, it was a little late in the game. Here you get a guy coming off a Super Bowl, leaving sunny LA to come to Buffalo. What a statement. And you see he's having so much fun. I mean, just all the, it's hard. I want to come on here and be obnoxious Bill fan. Can I be honest with you? I want to be that guy. I want to be the guy that

we talk, you know, you talk to me in January and I'm trying to get myself psyched up for a pass playoff game. I'm literally just praying. I am just praying. Please stay healthy. Please. I saw Micah Hyde go down. That was great. I just want one, Bill. I just want one and I feel like I will never get closer to one than I am

right now. I just want to see one and then I will talk all the shit. I'll be the most insufferable fan of all time and I'm not I will never get closer to one than I am right now. I just want to see one and then I will talk all the shit. I'll be the most insufferable fan of all time and I'm not going to be a dynasty fan. I don't care about that. I just want one. That's all. Well, you'll care about the next one

once you get one. No, I don't care. I thought that too with the Red Sox. No, I don't care. I just want to know what it feels like. By the way, can I break some news to you? Yeah. I've been a Bills fan since 1990.

I've never attended a home game at Orchard Park. October 9th, Bill, that changes. Wow. Yeah. I've been a Bills fan since 1990. I've never attended a home game at Orchard Park. October 9th, Bill, that changes. I will make the pilgrimage to Orchard Park. First time ever in my life with my family. Bills, Steelers, the Mitch Trubisky game. We're going to kill them. It's going to be amazing.

He will not be the quarterback by then. It'll be Kenny Pickett. You'll be seeing Kenny Pickett in action. He'll be just as terrified, though. You know, we mentioned how the run game would be the one. Hmm, not sure. But it doesn't really matter because you have Allen. And any third and three, any third and four, he's going to make it happen.

All I've done is watch football the last two weeks. There's him, and there's Herbert, and there's Mahomes. Wait a second. And I do think there's Mahomes. Wait a second. And I do think there's a little bit of a drop off now to the next group. Rogers is 41. Brady's 45. Brady looks like he's making a business decision for this season. He's probably going to like, you know, he's getting rid of the ball early so it doesn't

get hit, stuff like that. But it feels like those three guys are now levitating above the rest of the league. And I don't even know who else you would even consider throwing in there. Is this the nicest thing you've ever said about Josh Allen? I feel like this is... He's unbelievable. Okay. So are you a believer now? Because I feel like even after week one, we were texting, you're like, he threw three picks and all that. Still weren't giving him props. Are you ready to finally say he's the best quarterback in the league?

I'm not ready to say that yet. Who's better. I think those three guys have, have, I think they're levitating over and over else. Josh still has like the two throws a game where you're like, ah, what was that?

Two throws. That's what we're going to hate him for. Two better than him right now. AFC championship game, NFC championship game. You need to get to the super bowl. Who are you taking over Josh Allen right now? I would still game, NFC championship game, you need to get to the Super Bowl. Who are you taking over Josh Allen right now? I would still

have Mahomes just because he's done it. I think what Allen has, whatever championship belt title he has now, is the I am the most scared of this person title. If you're going against him, you're betting against him, and it's third and three,

you just feel like he's going to get it. And Mahomes, you feel like that differently, but it's the legacy of what he has, but it isn't the same weapons. This one, Diggs, Davis, who didn't even play yesterday, the McKenzie piece, I still think is going to matter as the season goes along, but it just feels like... I had the Rams in week one and every time I just felt like, oh man, they're not going to stop them. And there's something different about that. Now people are going to say, well, three weeks ago you were saying you didn't see it with the Bills. It wasn't that I didn't say it. I was very consistent with this. I didn't understand why they were just being penciled in.

They were clearly the best team because you know how football goes. But now after two weeks, they've looked the best. I think they are the best team. Wow. This is big. Because a lot of people sent me that tweet that you put out and I was going to make some snarky reply, but you know, I also want to remain employed here at the ring. Oh, stop.

You would have made the snarky reply. You know, deep down, like it was a fair criticism. Why are we jumping to the conclusion that this is clearly the best team? Can we just see it a couple weeks? And now we've seen it a couple weeks. Now we've seen it. And by the way, if you recall, going into last season, there was a lot of talk about them potentially being the best team.

And they stumbled out of the gate against Pittsburgh at home, a horrendous loss. And I felt like they were too cocky. Like they just kind of believe their own hype this time around. Still a lot of buzz, still a lot of hype, but I feel like they're coming out and they're proving it. Like they have this chip on their shoulder. Why? Probably because of 13 seconds, probably because of how last season ended. And maybe in the end, that ends up being the best thing to ever happen to this team. We'll, you know, we'll see. Also, Ken Dorsey, shout out to him doing phenomenally.

I'm very happy for Brian Dayball over in New York, but Dorsey has done an immense job and an incredible job. I'm so happy for him and what he's been doing. And it just feels like, you know what? You know, what's my biggest criticism? The two first halves. It's almost like they're too hyped. They're too excited.

They love playing together. They want to shove it down everyone's throat. They want to prove a point, but they need to chill out. And I love this Tua talk about the Dolphins. This is the cutest thing. I have these Dolphins fans text me, oh, this is going to be so great. We're finally going to win the AFC. You'll see

on Sunday because we're playing at Miami on Sunday. Oh, this is going to be so cute. I can't wait for this beatdown. And I could be cocky about this because we are a thousand. The only guy that scares me on the Dolphins is Tyree Kill just because historically

he has given us fits on Kansas City different day and age different time different era we're going to kick their ass what is the line right now you're the line master

what is it right now it's in that four to four and a half range Buffalo favored by ten the weather will be interesting like whether it gets super hot, humid. It does affect teams. It used to affect the Patriots once upon a time when we were good.

Way, way, way, way, way, way, way back when. Yeah, that Miami's, they at least bring something to the table, right? They're cute. It's cute. They have this Tyreek who tilts the field and then they have the, oh, it's minus five and a half now, the Buffalo line. But they have the Tyreek Speed and the Wado,

who is really, either he's the best bubble screen guy or one of the best. But the combo of that is really hard to stop. The two of thing, I was not a believer. Rosillo went the furthest.

Rosillo is like, he's a backup QB. I don't, I think to me, he was a bottom 10 starting QB. That game, Sunday was the first time where he kind of looked like Alabama to it. Now, I don't know if it's because his receivers

were just wide open or whether there was some sort of confidence thing, breakthrough he had, but he did have a poise in that game that I don't feel like he's had as an NFL quarterback. So who knows? Not worried. He hasn't faced a defense like ours.

They're on fire right now. And I feel like a division, quote unquote, rival, first one of the season, they're going to prove a point. The thing that I love so much about them, I mean, like, Josh's post-game press conferences

are so boring. They're so permy-like. But I just want to shower in them. I love it. Because he's so freaking intense. He's doing the Brady thing. He's doing that. I don't want to fire up them. I love it because he's so freaking intense. He's doing the Brady thing. He's doing that. I don't want to fire up anybody or say anything that's going to get me in trouble.

So they get through this Miami game. They're going to catch Baltimore at Baltimore week four. A team that is already, you know, the injury luck thing is already killing them again. They got Casey in week six. Green Bay week seven. And then it gets pretty easy after that. There are only four road games left after November 6th at the Jets. They're at Detroit on Thanksgiving, which could be a sneaky, tough one. It's that 1230 start. You just played on Sunday. I don't love that spot.

They're at New England the following Thursday, at Chicago the 24th and at Cincinnati on January 2nd. But it'll be interesting if they go in at Kansas City 5-0 and they come out of that with a win. There's a roadmap where the undefeated talk will start. I'm just telling you. This is too crazy. I'm just telling you, it's going to start. What do we talk about? All we do is talk about football and look for dumb angles every week. The undefeated thing will start. Oh, by the way, so I follow a bunch of the Buffalo media guys on Twitter and multiple of them were talking 17-0,

like doing the exact same thing. Oh, we get by this one and then it's smooth sailing here. I'm like, what are we doing? Can we just chill out? 17-0 is just absurd. It doesn't make sense. Did you see that stat last night?

They flashed about 40 plus point games. It's crazy. I think since 2020, they've had eight. That's usually, if you're going to go 16-1, 15-2, 17-0, you have to have an offense at that level where you're just putting up 600 points. And they do have the capability of doing that, I think, right?

Oh, 100%. Also, the punting thing is crazy. They did punt a couple of times yesterday, but the fact that you were talking about Josh on third and five, third and three, whatever. Josh on fourth and one, fourth and two is lethal as well. It's an amazing thing. They just never want to punt. Can I tell you the one thing that I don't understand and you being the expert can maybe talk me off the sledge? I keep seeing Odell flirt with them and it seems like everyone is like, wink, wink, nudging, nudging. Like, oh, this is happening.

Why? Why do we need Odell? Can you explain this to me? Why bring in this guy? You're pretty loaded at receiver. I would actually be more interested in figuring out a running back that could move the chains on third and three.

That's the thing. Maybe that's Zach Moss. But who can get your third and two, your third and one in bad weather? That's not Josh. Do you want to put those miles on Josh for five, six months? That's always been one of my biggest concerns. They drafted Cook first. By the way, did I tell you that they invited me to announce their draft pick in Vegas and I had to turn it down because I had to work that weekend. The Bills called me. Next year.

What an amazing honor that was as a lifelong Bill fan to walk up there. I mean, these things happen to you all the time. For me, it was a pretty big damn deal. But the thing is, you got a guy like Stephon Diggs. He is happy as can be. He's your wide receiver one. You've got Gabe Davis coming up.

I agree with you on McKenzie. Why do we keep talking about Odell Beckham? Why even rattle this cage? I know he's best buds with Vaughn, and they had a nice thing last season. He's probably flown it out there to stay in the news, would be my guess. I think he goes back to the Rams

because they actually need a receiver way more. All night, last night, he's tweeting about the Bills. Yeah, that's not great. He's flirting with them. Maybe he's just batting his eyelashes, hoping to get picked. One thing I noticed last night, the home court in NBA, we call it, which matters less and less.

And the home field in the NFL, which seemingly matters less and less as we move into the suite era and everybody's on their phones during timeouts. But I thought Buffalo and Philly had great fans. I love the Philly fans. We're booing Jalen Rieger. They're up 17 with four minutes left. He comes out for their punt. They're like, oh, last licks on Jalen Rieger.

Like they were locked into that game. Same thing for Buffalo. We don't really have that with a lot of teams anymore. KC still has it. But for the most part, it feels like Buffalo and Philly are at least in the discussion for best home field crowd advantage affect the game stuff. Yeah. You know, Cleveland people, you know, it's, it's like those teams that are really thirsty for it. I know that Philly has won recently, but I mean, I, is there a better

fan base? Is there a more devoted fan base? Is there a more dedicated fan base than Bill's mafia than the Bill's fan base? I don't know, like name. The Eagles won. It's nice and all, but they'll turn on that team. The Bills fans will never turn on the Bills. Even if this season, God forbid, a million times turns out to be a disaster, they won't turn on the Bills. They have been through so much crap over the last 20 or so years. People forget. It's easy to forget now. They were the last team in the 21st century to make the playoffs in the NFL. It took them 17 years into the 21st century to make the playoffs. So all this is a nice story. And I see them talking about it on all the shows and everything. But for me, honestly, it's still hard to process. It's still hard to digest.

And we have been through so much we have seen so much crap so many bad teams and always said that next year's our year next you know like every fan base says to see it come like this to have that generational quarterback to have that generational wide receiver to have that defense to have the coach to have the front office to believe in these guys to have the owner all that stuff it's it's really you know what i i've never experienced this i was trying to think about this before because I know you love the comparisons. Once in my life, the 94 Knicks, when Jordan left, was the one time in my life where I was going in, I was like,

I might have a chance to see my team win a championship. I have never felt confidence like I have now. And it's not like I'm trying to be braggadocious. I've never had someone tell me your team is the number one betting you know, betting favorite to win the championship. I don't know what that feels like. And so I don't even know what to do with myself. I'm just like watching the highlights over and over again. And I just want, I almost want to like simulate this season and make it to the end just so I can see how this plays out and then come back to September and enjoy it because it's, it's actually a lot of anxiety. It's very stressful. We had that with the Pats because the Pats really weren't good ever, except for like three seasons for the first 35 years of my life. And then when it shifted,

when they became like kind of the favorite, we'd already won one. But when all of a sudden you're like, wow, we actually have the best team. It's a pretty, it's pretty long. I want to talk about the baggage stuff, but let's take a quick break. Start the NFL week off right with a no sweat, same game parlay every Thursday from FanDuel, America's number one sports book. Doesn't matter if you're new to FanDuel,

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some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. Alright, so you mentioned the baggage and the lack of success in the 21st century, which starts with the Music City Miracle. I think that was in 2000. Yeah, the 99 going to 2000.

Yeah, so it was like January 2000. It was like basically that you start the century with that and then last January, it was like January, 2000. It was like basically that you start the century with that. And then last, last January you have the 13 seconds game with the baggage with this team. You mentioned how sometimes that's a good thing to have. I disagree in some cases, but in other cases, yes. Like the 1986 Red Sox, when we had, when we blew the World Series, we had 13 chances with two strikes and that debacle. The 87 team, we were dead man walking the entire year. It's like they, they kind of, they had this attitude like, well, fuck it.

Like we hit rock bottom or three Oh against the Yanks. And this fucking attitude emerged from it. What attitude has emerged from the bills since that 13 seconds game? Because I feel like people have skipped over it a little and how it relates to this, this season where there's almost like no baggage from it. Is it just, we have too much to talk about now as sports?

Because that was one of the worst football losses of all time. And it's kind of just over here now and nobody mentions it. Maybe it's naivete, but I never thought that that was going to break them. I have too much faith in Josh Allen. I think a lot of athletes,

you know, there's a fighter named Jose Aldo who just retired from the UFC. He was knocked out by Conor McGregor in 13 seconds in 2015, greatest featherweight champion of all time. And I said on Sunday that his legacy aren't all the title defenses, aren't all the wins, aren't all the knockouts, aren't all the headliners that he had. It's that he didn't let that moment, which ironically, by the way, it's crazy that I'm making this analogy. He lost in 13 seconds to Conor McGregor. That's an insane analogy right there on my part. Thank you. I didn't plan that. Ironically, 13 seconds, he didn't let that moment in 2015 define him. He didn't let it break him. He didn't let that swallow him up. In fact, he ended up coming

back and winning an interim title and moving down to 35 and fighting for the belt there. And so I feel the same way about Josh. Now, Josh didn't have the resume leading up to that point that Aldo did, but there's something about this young man that I just felt even on that horrible night in January this past year, I didn't feel like this was going to define him. I didn't think that this was going to break him. Well, plus he came through. I mean, the defense was what screwed it up. Yeah, he got the touchdown I mean, the defense was what screwed it up. Yeah, he got the touchdown. It took the lead.

Gabe Davis showed up. They all showed up. The defense, you're right. Leslie Fraser kind of let them down. But honestly, I really felt week one, we're going to find out who these guys are, right? I was always worried about that Pittsburgh Steelers loss in week one of last year because I felt like they believed their own hype too much

and they got punched in the mouth. The perfect scenario was go back to LA, the site of where you would have won the Super Bowl. And I believe till this day, in my heart of hearts, they beat the Chiefs that night. They're beating the Bengals at home and they're beating the Rams at home as well to win the Super Bowl. You go there, you set the tone, and they couldn't have done a better job. And honestly, do you think I'm crazy for saying this? I really don't feel like we've seen their best. I really feel like they have another gear and I can't wait to see it.

I don't know when it's going to come, but even the first half last night, I was like, this is not that great. This is not number one seed football. The second half was tremendous. Putting it together for, and that was a 41 to seven game against the number one seed.

Unbelievable. I can't even, I can't, I can't even put it into words. This is amazing. And you, come on, you have to admit,

football is more fun with the Bills doing well, right? Well, they basically, basically the Pats handed the torch to them. What are you talking about?

Well, the Pats like, they dominated the AFC East. They won in 2001. They did it in 2002. And then from 03, all the way through the 2010s, they were crushing it and they were the one or the two seed every year. And then as that's dying, the bills rise up. And I had Sean Fennessy, who I work with, who's a huge Jets fan, was just like, I don't understand this. Like we just had 20 years of Brady and I have 15 years of Josh. That's,

you know, like two thirds of my life as a football fan with these two fucking guys in my vision. Like, like what did I do to deserve this? He's trotting out Joe Flacco. Um, I can't wait to see how it plays out.

Can we talk UFC quick? Yes, for sure. Also, I feel like we need to have one comment cause I got a lot of comments. The last time we spoke about pro wrestling. A lot has changed in WWE. They seem fine, but do we have like a monster, oh my God, get your friends together? Is there a monster battle left before we get out of 2022? What is it?

Okay. Well, first of all, 280 is a fantastic card. It's probably the best pay-per-view on paper. Also very fun. It's happening in Abu Dhabi, so it's during the day. Now, I know if you're a hardcore college football fan, you don't love that. It's a 2 p.m. Eastern start time main card. It's tremendous. You have it on the screen while the other football is going on. The main event is Charles Oliveira, the guy who missed way. They took his belt away,

but he continues to win. He's unbelievable. He's never in a boring fight. He's allergic to them against Islam Makhachev, who's the disciple of Khabib Nurmagomedov. That's been his guy. He has brought up his protege. And so a lot of people think if Charles can beat Islam, maybe this is the moment that brings Khabib out of retirement to go for 30-0 to essentially get that one back. A lot of people think Islam is going to win, but that's a fun storyline. Also, you have Sean O'Malley on that card going up against Piotr Jan. The card is great. Sean Brady against Bilal Muhammad. There's just a ton. I didn't ask you about the card. Okay. What did you want?

I wanted what's the best fight left in these last three cards. So is Adesanya? Okay. Israel Adesanya versus Alex Perea is an amazing fight. That's headliner for MSG November 12th. These two guys have fought twice before, Bill. And guess what? Alex knocked them out.

Yeah. Alex knocked him out in kickboxing. Now, this is kickboxing. Knocked him out and beat him via points. Now, here's Izzy's revenge in the sport. He's way more comfortable

in MMA. That's great. And if you don't like that, Michael Chandler against Dustin Poirier on that card. Oh, man. Poirier always has good fights.

Oh, my God. That's on that card. And then December 12th, they're still trying to figure it out. It might be Francis Ngannou. It might be Jon Jones. Maybe, by the way,

October 29th, Jake Paul Anderson Silva. You're telling me you're not buying that? That's tremendous theater. Well, I know my son's getting it. That's great stuff. We got both Paul brothers are really playing it smart.

In a seven-day stretch. Logan's going against Roman Reigns. Where is that? Survivors? The Survivor Series War Games thing? No, that's Crown Jewel in Saudi Arabia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'll be good.

Okay. So we're feeling good about you, but nothing will top what happened last month. I mean, that was... Now you've had time to reflect it. Oh, Leon Edwards. Is that the greatest? Because we have enough time.

Everybody's had their takes. Everybody's thought about it. Is that the greatest? Because we have enough time. Everybody's had their takes. Everybody's thought about it. Is that the greatest UFC moment ever? It's hard to say ever. For me personally, it's top five because of the story. This guy was screwed. He was so screwed over the last three years. The corporation, they were trying to throw everything in his way.

This was like, if you remember the Kofi Kingston build of a couple of years ago, making him beat every single guy on Roots WrestleMania. This was Leon Edwards, soft-spoken guy from England. No one was fighting for him. No one believed in him. No one wanted him to win, it seems. And then he finally, almost like reluctantly, gets this title shot against Kamaru Usman, who's talking about fighting Canelo, who's talking about being the pound-for-pound king,

being better than GSP. And what happens? Wins the first round, sort's talking about being the pound-for-pound king, being better than GSP. And what happens? Wins the first round, sort of. Loses the second. Loses the third. Loses the fourth. He's now down to the final 60 seconds. The fight was done.

It was done. I was reading my iPad. I wasn't even... It was unbelievable. Somebody screamed, whoa, and I looked up, and I didn't even know what happened. In the last 50 seconds,

he pulls off this incredible knockout. Usman's never been knocked out before. And it's just like when so when you mix well also on a on a leg kick on a kick to the head yes it was amazing and this if I can give the cheap plug this in a nutshell if I could ever tell someone like oh why do you love being on Spotify live and this is hand to God I would tell I think i've told you this as well yeah that night which was really 7 00 a.m in the uk it was one of the greatest experiences of my career because we had all these british fans call i'm getting goosebumps telling you the story crying and we put together like a little highlight reel of it literally crying and saying what this meant to them that this gave them hope that this gave them light people from birmingham this working

class town nothing good happens to them. To be able to speak to those people in that moment, like that was the closest thing that you could have to a post-game show on the radio back in the day that I would listen to. It was such a special, special moment.

Well, you also had Enyad Usman who was about to break the record or tie the record. Yeah, and he sold his record for most wins to start a career. Now they're going to run it back most likely in April or March at, We're talking

Wembley right now. UFC hates doing the stadium shows because of the weather. They're always afraid about it, but they got to do this. They will sell that thing out. If they put on a UK versus the world card with him and Patti Pimblitt and Molly McCann and all these people that have been doing so well out of the UK right now, Arnold Allen, they will sell that out in an hour. So you had a kick to the head, which is just about the hardest way to knock somebody out, I think, in an MMA fight. The least likely

outcome to a knockout. You had, he's dominating the fight and there's only a minute left. You had the announcers almost on cue talking about how they felt bad for Edwards. It seems like he's given up. Everything about it almost felt scripted. It really did feel like professional

wrestling. One of those things where in pro wrestling, that never happens because it was so obvious that Usman was going to win. They were screwing him over, all this stuff. This guy, Leon Edwards, who everyone said couldn't connect with the audience, who said he was boring, that he

wasn't good on the mic all that stuff he cuts this amazing promo this passionate promo afterwards and now he's a huge star like anytime you post anything about leon now it explodes all this i don't know how this happened again one of those things it explodes and then the following month we have the nate diaz hamza situation which was straight out of pro wrestling where they tried to screw him too and give him the worst fight on the way out. And then somehow Hamza misses weight and all this craziness happens. UFC has been so crazy lately.

It's been a lot of fun to cover because it's just all this unexpected stuff happening. So who's the guy right now? Are people auditioning to be the guy? Who's the guy? Well, when you say the guy, do you mean like the number one box office? Who's the guy?

Who's the guy? Is he? To me, number one. Like in WWE, Roman Reigns is the guy do you mean like the number one box office who's the guy who's the guy is he to me number one like in WWE Roman Reigns is the guy yeah there's no like for sure box office

honestly this is what they wanted you know who the guy is the guy is the UFC the brand what they want is we come to town you don't know who's on the card you're buying tickets

and that's they're killing it they say they're on a 26 or 25. I mean, that's what football, that's what the NFL wants. They don't want the superstar. They just want parity, 32 teams.

You never know who's going to win every year, and that's what they want. They want that. That's what WWE strives for. That's what Eddie Hearn and Matchroom Boxing are striving for. That's what Top Rank wants. They want the brand to be number one.

And right now, UFC can do no wrong. Even the Nate situation. They tried to screw him. What happens? The card gets better in 24 hours. The ratings are up. The ticket sales are up. The gates are up.

The pay-per-view buys are up. The move to ESPN Plus has worked out tremendously. So yeah, if I had to pick a guy, I would say Izzy's up there who's fighting in MSG. They're putting him in that spot. They put him in international. So if Izzy gets his revenge, I think he becomes the

guy, but it still doesn't feel like some of the other guys. There's pressure on him because remember, that fight was kind of not so great. So he has to deliver on the biggest stage. And what about WWE? Can we talk about this? Let's do it now. We'll devote the last eight to nine minutes. So we have

2022. This happens with wrestling, it seems like. Let's do it now. We'll devote the last eight to nine minutes. So we have 2022. On fire. This happens with wrestling, it seems like, I don't know, every 10 years, every 11 years, it's like the godfather when they go to the mattresses. A sea change happens and you can feel it where AW is grabbing a lot of real estate from them and they're becoming the cool hip.

And WWE just feels old. And for the first time, it feels like Vince is just out to lunch with how he's booking stuff, the kind of stars he's either letting go or pushing. There's no rhyme or reason to the storytelling. They blow with the NXT brand. And in the span of six months,

you have Vince forced out for a really good reason. Then you have Triple H who's kicked to the side. Obviously, there was some Vince Triple H stuff going on. You have Nick Khan. So now you have this

Nick Khan, Vince, I mean, Nick Khan, Steph, Triple H running the WWE in the way that the fans kind of didn't understand why they weren't running it this way.

Getting behind all these different wrestlers, building storylines, having better matches, like actually programming Raw correctly, rejuvenating the NXT, and at the same time, the AEW. I don't want to say it's cratering, but it's in real turmoil. So what do you care about more? Which storyline?

Oh my gosh, that's a tough question. I'll say the story of Triple H coming back, as you said, like almost kicked to the curb, obviously had the health issues, but you could see all the stuff that he had invested in, NXT being the main one, building up these new stars, talent, et cetera. It all felt like it was being blown up. The theory out there was they went head to head with AEW, they lost, and so Vince wanted to kill it. I actually asked Triple H that question point blank, and he said, that's not true, but that's what the internet says.

Well, there's a better theory, which is that Vince put it against AEW knowing that it wasn't going to win to cut its legs out because he was nervous about Triple H basically on his territory, which as we know, Vince is a competitive dude. That wouldn't surprise me.

I just, I can't believe how quickly things have turned. Like for me, I remember us talking the last time we spoke, they had just announced Roman Reigns versus Brock Lesnar as the main SummerSlam. And I remember saying it was boring. It was tired. We've seen it a million times. We saw it at WrestleMania. It wasn't a good match. I'm tired of this. It was lazy booking. It was the same old, same old. Triple H comes in And the vibe, the atmosphere, the originality, the unpredictability of it all, it has been amazing. And you know, I've gone to two events since

the change. One was summer simos to fresh. The other one was clash at the castle in Wales. And you get to talk to some of the guys and and and women as well. And the the vibe and the the the mood surrounding the mood surrounding the product surrounding the company surrounding the business has dramatically changed. There's so much optimism, there's so much positivity, everyone, you know what it feels like, it feels like when there's a coaching change mid season, and you know,

one of the boys gets promoted from you know, the being a bench coach to you know, the interim job, if you will, even though he's not interim. But you get what I'm saying. And then the team goes on a 10-game winning streak because they want to win for him. And it seems like everyone wants to win for Triple H and for Stephanie. They're all beloved. No one says a negative thing about them.

And I think the little things that Nick has done, obviously, I always say, we used to work together, but they're bringing these fun little things like the press conferences I like this stuff it's making it feel real the stare downs I think there's more of that to come as well he's stealing some

UFC stuff that I think is smart yeah why not by the way UFC has stolen a bunch from them steal from UFC as well no problem and Nick is obviously

a long time boxing guy as well well and he's also stealing from the history because we broke this on the ringer that Survivor Series turning into Survivor Series War Games. They're doing it in Boston. One of the only locations where nobody goes away for Thanksgiving. Everyone's going to be around.

The crowd's going to be great. The War Games thing is still like one of the coolest revolutionary ideas in the history of wrestling. And it'll be really cool. But there's real thought being put into this stuff now versus just running it back, running it back, running it back. Survivor Series became an afterthought. It was one of my favorite pay-per-views back in the day. Always Thanksgiving weekend. It was Raw versus SmackDown. Who cares?

I was at the last one last year and it was Big E versus Roman Reigns in a non-title main event. No one cares about a non-title. Make it title for title at least. So yes, I agree with you on that. And you know what I love? All the dudes that got let go over the past year

that everyone was up in arms about, they're all slowly but surely coming back. He's re-signing all of them. The carrying crosses of the world. There's a lot of, there's a lot of buzz right now that Bray Wyatt's going to come back this Friday.

A lot of people, Braun Strowman, like Triple H, the guy is on fire. Little Johnny Gargano come back? One of my son's favorites? He's back it's amazing

it's amazing like all these guys who over the past year it was just like fired fired fired fired

they're getting their YouTube channels back like the positivity and the vibe who would have predicted this honestly who would have predicted this three months ago

that WWE would now be on fire and AEW kind of floundering now I will say AEW ratings pretty good they had 1.2 last week AEW is fine floundering. Now, I will say, AEW rating's pretty good. They had 1.2 last week. AEW is fine. This is the first time they've

had to deal with some of the stuff that pops up if you're running a wrestling league, wrestling federation, whatever it's called. When the inmates are running the asylum, when you got all these guys, quote-unquote VPs, it's bound to mess up. Just ask WCW circa 1998. Oh, yeah. MJF, though.

They're repeating the... It's so funny. Tony Khan, who runs AEW, who I think one of the reasons AEW succeeded was he was a student of the history of wrestling. And he really, I think, smartly put together this thing with Cody Rhodes and some of these other guys for how do we stand out

against WWE, and it worked. And then he completely replicates 98 WCW, which I thought, you know this, you probably have the old Dave Meltzer newsletters about how this fell apart and you're just redoing this? Crazy. Mess. That press conference was a mess. But MJF, in my opinion, right now, pound for pound, the biggest attraction in the business. I mean, that guy, the promos, are you a fan of his? Do you watch his stuff? Well, when I asked you before, who's the guy in the UFC? Yeah. If MGF would be the, if that had been the question for wrestling, it'd be MGF. He's got to be, if there's a number one draft pick, if AEW and WWE blows up and we could just

start over, who's the number one pick one thousand percent he's 26 and he's taking a page out of the nba where he's talking about the bidding war for 24 where he's going to be a free agent january he's talking about the date he says january 1st 2024 i'm going to be a free agent he's actually making this into a thing yeah and he talks about nick and bruce pritchard on aw now who knows what's a work what's a thing. Yeah. And he talks about Nick and Bruce Prichard on AEW. Now, who knows what's a work, what's a shoot, but you know us wrestling fans, we love this stuff. We can't get enough of this stuff.

So he's saying, I'm going to go over there to the real wrestling company. We love this stuff. What he is doing, he's the best heel in the business. He's the best performer in the business. He's shades of Roddy Piper, circa 1987. I'm glad you said that. He's the first guy in, what, almost 40 years that reminds me of Piper circa 1987. I'm glad you said that. He's the first guy in what?

Almost 40 years. That reminds me of Piper. He's amazing. Cause I thought Piper was a one-on-one unicorn. People have tried to like dabble toward imitating some of that, but it was unimitatable. Some of the stuff hasn't aged well, we should mention,

but he was just an insane, incredible wrestling heel. And this guy has it. And he has the ability. I think The Rock had it before The Rock got turned into a good guy where the ability to walk into a ring and kind of size it up and everybody hates you and bask in it and then make them hate you a little bit more, but they're still loving the hating you part. That's what he has.

The most, and I agree with that, the most impressive thing that MJF has done as of late was the Wednesday after that bizarro press conference and everything seemed to go to hell with AW, he comes out in Buffalo wearing a Josh Allen jersey and everyone loves him. He's the savior, he's back. And he got somehow the fans who were cheering him, giving him a standing ovation, going nuts for him,

to turn on him because he is so damn good. He came out and then threw the curve ball and wiped his butt with the jersey. And it was so amazing. Like this guy, the biggest challenge for him now is, as you know, people love to cheer the bad guys in wrestling. It's like the cool thing to do. They're going to start rooting for him. Yeah. I don't think he's going to be able to, they even Piper turned into a good guy, which is incredible. Piper did some of the most evil stuff we've ever had in wrestling. I think the gimmick of wearing the jersey in the town and then turning on the jersey

and like that, that's never not worked. It never fails. It makes people so mad. You do it in Kansas City, you can do it in Buffalo, Minnesota, pick a city. We didn't mention the, I mean, there was this huge backstage fight that I thought was,

because they've done so much kind of wink-wink stuff at AW, I was like, I don't believe this. And then people were like, no, no, this happened. And then in the fallout of it, the way it's covered, CM Punk, who's the biggest, at least the most famous person they have, calls out everybody in this press conference for the people listening who don't know,

and then ends up getting in a huge fight backstage with the Young Bucks, Kenny Omega, who's up getting in a huge fight backstage with the young, young bucks, Kenny Omega, who's going to be a free agent soon it looks like. Yeah. And a real fight

where people are getting hit with chairs, people are getting sucker punched. Bit. Somebody got bit and now everybody's suspended and the reason we know it's not a work

is because they're not even acknowledging it. It's, they're just not on, they put up punk's title. Basically they made it, they vacated it and they're kind of pretending it didn't happen. But all the wrestling,

you know, and the newsletter, internet message boards, it's a little like 97, 98. It's funny wrestling going back to its early internet roots. This is the best though, right?

I spoke to MJF yesterday. He wouldn't talk about punk. He wouldn't address punk. He wouldn't say anything about him, which made me feel like, oh, wow, this is legit. They're running Arthur Ashe on Wednesday, which is a wild thing. Great idea. awesome, man. I was really, when we last spoke in July, I was super down on wrestling. I thought it was so boring and stale. Now, I honestly can't get enough to the point where my kids and I are buying the cards. The Panini cards, and they're fun. The cards are really nice. There's

AEW cards and WWE cards. I am really into that announcement that Survivor Series announcement was like, this is another thing that he's reviving. This is another thing that he's bringing back. The one thing I love about Triple H is that he respects the history. It almost felt like Vince would try to spit on the history and ignore the history.

And you see what Triple H has done with the US title, with the IC title. He's made it important. Survivor Series, like one of the pillars of the pay-per-views for WWE all those years, the big four, bringing that back. I can't wait to see what he does with Mania. I spoke to him in London in london a couple weeks ago and he gave this like passionate plea to the rock like looked right into the camera and cut this promo why the rock needs to come back to wrestlemania in in april

at sofi i was like holy crap this is amazing like he's really talking to the rock right now unless i was just falling for like a total mark there's something about that guy like he can do no wrong I think right now in the fans of the in the eyes of the fans and he hasn't missed even this Logan Paul thing initially when I heard about I was like well that's a little bit weird but they're going to get a ton of buzz for it and it's going to be a fun one off

and they're going to go their merry way and no harm no foul well and he's putting in the time too it's not like you know, a typical celebrity coming in and they don't really, even like that. I don't think the Rousey thing

has worked at all. And I think they know that now. And she just doesn't have the personality, the charisma. Logan Paul has the charisma. Oh my God. Tremendous heel. It's not MGF level,

but it's a level below. He just gets it. He gets how to connect with the crowd, which is the quality you're looking for. But I think with Triple H, he respects all different types of wrestling bodies and styles. And that's, I think what Vince lost during those last 10,

12 years. He just wanted like the big guys. He just wanted to, how many times did we see Kane and Undertaker? Oh yeah. For a 10 year span there. It's like, nobody wants to watch this anymore.

And it just kept running it back. And you know, one thing that they've gained in all of this that's underrated, but I think is going to be huge for them. I believe strongly, we might've talked about this in the past, like every promotion, it doesn't matter what combat sport, boxing, MMA, wrestling, you need a face. You need a guy on the dais to say like, this is why you need to watch on Saturday and give me your $65. And all the media loves talking to these guys, Dana White, Don King, Bob Arum, Eddie Hearn, et cetera. Vince was once that guy, but in the last 20 years, the guy did no media. He never showed his face. Now, all of a sudden, if you notice, they've transformed Triple H into that guy. Like when they had the presser, he's up there, he's talking about it. He's doing interviews. He's doing scrums. They've now all

of a sudden gotten a face and it's a recognizable face and it's a respected face. And it's not just a fake figurehead. It's a guy that you believe is actually running the show because we know he's running the show. He's the head of creative. And now all of a sudden you've got somebody who has 40 years of interview experience and he's amazing doing bits and working with crowds. So he's perfectly suited. They've turned him into like a good guy, Dana White. He's showing up there. He's likable. They've turned him into like a good guy, Dana White. He's showing up there. He's likable.

You want to listen to him. You want to talk to him if you're a media guy. He's saying good things. He's, he's, he's rootable. If that's a word, he just, I mean, he almost died. He said it himself last year. Like, how can you not root for someone like that? He seems like a family guy. Like what they're doing now is, is really smart with him.

I love it. Well, it's crazy. 25 years after the Montreal Screwjob, we have this other seminal summer that it just feels like things have shifted. All right, Ariel, we will see you on Spotify Live before those last three cards, maybe a couple other ones. And then you want to plug in?

Our next show is this Thursday. Our next show is this Thursday at 1 p.m. On Thursdays, we do kind of like a news and notes show. And yeah, the next big pay-per-view is October 22nd. And we'll be on in the afternoon. So that card is going to end at 5 p.m. Eastern. And we'll have an afternoon post show like we always do. All right.

Good luck with the bills. Good to see you. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers,

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as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. All right, our guy Logan Murdoch is here. You can hear him on the Ringer NBA show, hosting The Real Ones with Raja Bell. Season three.

Yes, sir. For you guys. And then we can read it on theringer.com as well. You're also, I don't want to call you the Kevin Durant whisperer, but you're a student. You're a student at Durant. You covered him. You followed him.

You put a lot of thought into him. You covered him for the Warriors for a couple years there. Then you've been covering him as a national guy. I said, let's come on and talk Durant because now that the summer drama is done, now we are moving into the season, which somehow starts a month from now.

A month from today. It's crazy. It's ridiculous. It's insane. I thought it was like, like two weeks ago, it feels like the finals and we're here now. It's like the fastest off season of all time. Yeah. And it feels like football just started. I'm not ready to think about it. And as I think about storylines and I want to talk to you about the other one as well, um, that I didn't prep you for, but this Durant one, we're four weeks away this has the potential to be a complete disaster

right so that's one side there's another side where it's like this might work out this could be interesting and maybe Durant just wanted to make it clear he was unhappy but once it was clear he was never getting traded he's too competitive

he cares about basketball too much. It's not like he's going to check out. This is going to be like Vince Carter on Toronto. So out of those two paths, which one would you bet on? I don't know because I feel like every time during Kevin's tenure in Brooklyn, I feel like every season has started with this. It could be cool

and it also could be like an unmitigated disaster. I always veer on the side that it's going to be straight because it's going to be good because Kevin's so good and he's good enough to... There's stretches where... Think about the 2014

stretches MVP year where he just does it. He's one of those guys that can just win it by himself in a lot of ways. He can take over a game by himself, but then you have the now this tenure with the Nets, everything is just that can go bad has gone bad, right?

It starts with the Kyrie situation and the James Harden situation. I think I'm going to go out on a limb here just because we're kind of past the COVID phase where it seems like the league is really caring about what what covid is and i think that that really helps kairi and it's going to help him uh you know be the kairi because when he plays and i've seen i saw kairi play a

handful of times last year he's really fucking good right he's really good when he when he's when he's on and i think if he can play about 60 games and do some things, I think they can be a really good team. Plus, aside from all the stuff that's happened in Kevin Durant land, the Nets had a pretty good offseason. You know? The Nets had, like, they got some good, they made some good trades. They got Royce O'Neal on the

roster. They made some good moves that make you think, like, oh, okay. They can do something. So... Little T.J. Warren possibilities. Ben Simmons, maybe. There's a lot of, oh, okay, they can do something. Little TJ Warren possibilities. Ben Simmons, maybe. There's a lot of, oh, if this happens. Yeah, they have like five of those. Every single year that Kevin's been on the

Nets, I've thought this going into the season. I picked the Nets to go to the finals last year. And so, I don't know. I think I'm veering towards it's going to be okay. I looked at Instagram posts from the Brooklyn Nets and it was Kevin Durant's first day back into the gym and they had the IG

post. He's smiling. He's dabbing dudes up. I don't know. I think I got a little feeling like, oh, it might be okay if the dust settles. Here's the question for you, Durant. I don't want to call you a historian, but maybe Durant's studier. I do think the trade request was legitimate.

I do think, and we've talked about this on the pod in a bunch of times. I don't want to rehash all my theories for it, but I do think he wanted to get traded. I think he reached that point. I think it became quickly clear to everybody involved that there was no trade that was going to make the Nets happy. So you have to dig in. The only part I don't understand is the either Nash and Marks go or I go thing.

I thought that was just poorly executed because I don't think, first of all, the Nets owner, who's one of the most successful business people, not just in the NBA, but in the world, he's not going to be like, oh, I didn't realize you were going to threaten me. I guess we will trade you.

He's just not going to do that. And then the ramifications of just the relationship now with Nash and Marks, you can clear that up. You can be like, oh, my bad, but it's going to be hanging there. I don't understand why he did that. Why do you think he did that? Well, before I get into the why he did

that, also, there's something that I haven't been hearing much of lately as theories and stuff of what happened. But if you're going to ask for your coach and your GM to get fired, you don't want to do it in August. You probably want to do that in the springtime where there's other GMs on the market, other coaches on the market. If you're going to do a score starts thing and stay with the organization and make that type of Magic Johnson type ultimatum, you don't want to do it in August where there's literally no one to hire that can really take the job and run with it. So that was the odd point with me.

I think the reason why I was looking at the timeline of like when he asked for that trade and You know, I Release it really seems like if you know with the hindsight that you know, Kyrie isn't happy So, you know Kyrie's gonna have I want to get my man's what he wants, right? Cuz in the end when you're when we're in the matrix of this trade request, it seems like Oh Kevin Kevin's fed up, you know, maybe, maybe he's just done with the whole thing, right. He's done with like just the drama that's going,

he's just the last guy to be like, no, I want to be out of here. And honestly, on a face value, you can make a good argument of why Katie would want to be traded. Just everything that's gone wrong. Right. Even though that he kind of brought a lot of this on itself, but you know, you can talk to yourself into saying like, Oh, Katie wants to be traded because it's just a shit show in brooklyn right now whether i created it or not i still want to dip but if you look in hindsight it's like okay what happens kairi doesn't get the contract that that he wants there's there's whispers that he's

they're at an impasse and there's there's no there's not going to be a deal for kairi and then you see that's the catalyst right that's the catalyst of the whole thing and then you see kevin's like oh well if my mans isn't going to get a deal then like you know that's my bud i want and this goes back to when i talked to him back in march it's like oh no this is a partnership with me and me and kairi and now that's not happening okay well i'm about it here and you know i remember in the moment thinking like, okay, does that mean, you know, just thinking like, oh, does that mean him

and Kyrie on the outs? No, it doesn't mean that because they're training in LA like a week later, just still together and kicking it. And so I think that Well, you hold on. You left out. He signed the extension a year ago. A year ago. Assuming that Kyrie would be the next domino. And then the Nets were like, well,

rightly so. We're like, well, wait a second. Did you see the last year that Kyrie had? We're not as crazy anymore about giving him that deal. And that's, that's another catalyst. Yeah. And I just feel like it seems like just, you know, outsiders looking at it just seems like whatever Kyrie is doing. And me and you have talked about this off record. It seems like just, you know, outsiders looking in, it just seems like whatever Kyrie is doing, and me and you have talked about this off record. It seems like me, it seems like whatever Kyrie is doing, Kevin's like, okay, I'm going to roll with you. And that's something like they have this bond that is pretty unexplainable, right? Even when we try to talk it out, it's like, but why?

Why would you want to do this? Why would you want to follow this person that has, honestly, if we talk about relationships Kyrie at least outwardly from everything that we know and seen has not held up his end of the bargain in terms of friendship right I wouldn't say friendship is probably hasn't held up his end of the bargain in terms of being a teammate basketball friendship basketball friendship I'm not I don't want to get into their personal but at least on an on-court thing Kyrie hasn't held up his end of the bargain

like if I'm if I'm your teammate I'm supposed to be there every game if I can control it and he just wasn't like that that the last season and so you're like scratching your head to like why this what's up with this bond and I remember just hearing like during that time was like well the Nets didn't do enough to understand Kyrie they didn't do enough to really, to, you know, be, give all their resources to help this guy out. And I think that that manifested

through the trade, the trade request. Yeah, that makes sense. I think that, I think you hit the two and I think the Simmons trade was the other piece

that when they traded hard and they also were making a bet that Simmons was going to be able to play for them last year. And Durant's at a point where he's trying to win titles and he knows there's at least a little bit of a time limit on how many years he has left. And Simmons comes in and he's hurt.

He's got back issues. He's acting very strangely, showing up for the games. The behavior in general was pretty odd and it doesn't seem like he's reliable at all. And I think that was a piece. And then I also think I do, and I said this before, but I do feel like there's some sort of,

when you talk about the reporting of the story and you have like, you know, Woj and Shams are basically the, the newsbreaker kind of getting the stuff out there, people right now. And you have like, you know, Woj and Shams are basically the newsbreaker kind of getting the stuff out there people right now. And Sean Marks and Woj are super close. And the stuff that was coming out, I feel like, I don't think KD, I think he lost trust in the front office with stuff that was supposed to stay behind the scenes. I think that was another it's a small piece, but it's got to be mentioned. I think that was another, it's a small piece,

but it's got to be mentioned. Well, to your point, there was a story that came out, like, especially during the lockout, not the lockout, excuse me, what would you call it? The break between the pandemic and then going into the bubble, right? The hiatus.

The hiatus. And then there's this woe story talking about Kyrie in a lot of different ways, right? Where he's talking, it's just, in hindsight hindsight it didn't really seem like you know the most you know it seemed very one-sided let's say there was the Kyrie piece that seemed very one-sided from ESPN and if you're Kyrie or you're Kevin you're like yo what the hell like we're supposed to be a teammate and to your point about that relationship that we talked about you see that from a from look look from kairi and kevin's standpoint of like yo what the hell like we're like they think of kairi and katie think of this as a partnership right yeah

between all parties and um just in hindsight thinking like that i'm not saying that's when the distrust started but if you're looking from their point of vantage point, you're like, Hey man, what's, why, why, why are we doing this? If, if, if they think that someone is leaking something like that, they'd be like, why would you do that? Why, why, why would you do that? That could be something where they're like, Oh, and I'm just throwing that out the way, but it doesn't, that happened a few times. That happened a few times where it was like, oh, okay, we're going to just leak blame Kyrie.

We're not going to blame Kyrie outward, but we're going to just leak blame him to one of our trusted guys. And the Nash piece is harder to figure out, and I only have theories on this. Yeah. But if they... If...

Just look if you're Nash, right. And just to be clear, I've not talked to Nash about this. Um, if you're Nash, do you want to coach Kyrie again? Do you trust him?

Do you trust Kyrie to respect the sanctity of your team and to put the team above himself for an entire season after what you just saw coaching in the last couple of years? The answer would be no. Well, not only that, do you trust him to be in the lineup? Not even just on injuries. Do you trust him just to be here every single day? So if Nash is telling these guys,

we have to get rid of Kyrie, this is a losing bet. Don't do the contract. And that got back to KD. I think that could be the breaker. That's a theory. I don't know for sure. Yeah. It's just weird because it seems like this partnership

was kind of doomed from the start in a lot of ways. When you talk about when Kyrie was on Kevin's podcast talking about how we don't really have a head coach and things like that. And that just didn't start it off on the right foot before you even play a game. And then, um, you know, the, then the things go on with not, this is before like the, uh, the vaccine stuff, but like when Kyrie leaves for two weeks, right. During a pandemic and is, you know, you know, maskless somewhere, you know,

going to parties and things like that. And, you know, the relationship seemed to erode before it got better. So like, I'm really curious to see how this works. If everybody because in August, there was this kumbaya moment, there's a statement like, hey, we all met in LA, we're gonna figure this out. It's all right. Yeah. That came like two weeks after, after Kevin is reported that Kevin says, oh, well, him or me, them two or me. So I can't just imagine that everything is all peaches and cream after all of the things that have happened, all the baggage that has been accumulated between Kyrie, Steve Nash, and Kevin Durant. I can't imagine that this is all kumbaya moment and we're just all going to be good. I'm surprised, honestly, that Steve Nash is even coaching right now. I didn't think, I thought he was for sure going to be gone this season. I'm really surprised that he's even the coach right now.

You know why he's coaching? Because he never won an NBA title. What's that theory? Okay. Why? He's never won the title. He never made the finals. Okay. So he's trying to do that title. He never made the finals. Okay.

So he's trying to do that as the coach? I just felt like, you know, usually. Fuck yeah. But historically speaking, Bill, coaches don't survive players not liking them. It just doesn't happen. But if you're Nash, you're one of the best 40 players ever. You have to have some sort of innate confidence in yourself to reach the level that he reached. Also one of the most loved guys

in the league. Yeah, I'm sure he's like, you know what? I've been on some fucked up teams in the past. We'll figure this out. We still have Kevin who's still one of the best

10 players in the league. We have an East that's, you know, pretty wide open. And I'm sure he's talked himself into if we can just get Kyrie's head right for eight months, we have a chance. The Simmons himself into, if we can just get Kyrie's head, right.

For eight months, we have a chance. The Simmons part is the part I can't figure out, but you look at their roster. Like Joe Harris comes back this year, right? You mentioned Royce O'Neal, Seth Curry's healthy. He was playing hurt last year. They got Patty Mills back. Who knows with Cam Thomas, they signed Marquis Morris. We mentioned TJ Warren as an X factor.

They're still too small. Simmons solves a lot of problems for them from a defensive standpoint. I'm not counting him at all. He's a luxury at this point, a very expensive luxury. But as you said, Kyrie is going to be able to play the full season and he's got a real incentive because he is a free agent after this year. He's playing for another contract. The other thing is you can always trade him in February

if it's not working out. December, January, February is an expiring contract in a talent. That's when you can make some sort of move. So, I don't know. So, here's another thing though. Like, on the trade part, like, say if this is,

this is the argument that it goes bad, right? Say if Kyrie, it doesn't work out and Kyrie either demands a trade or it's like, oh, he's going to get traded at the deadline. They say they sit him out, right? Like by December or January, they're like, we're just done with Kyrie. We can't do this anymore.

Or worse, he sits out with some sort of injury or something that you don't even know if it's real or not. Right. Say that happens, right? And they trade him. Where does that leave Kevin? Where does that leave him if this is a guy that is a guy that he's hitched a wagon to and Kevin's still

one of, in my eyes, a top eight player for sure. What does that do if he's like, yo, you just traded my mans. I'm pissed. And that's going into a stretch run. This was what led to the trade request is the question, where does this leave Kevin? He's looking around.

He's like, all right, so Kyrie is now an expiring contract. He might not be happy. And I don't trust this Ben Simmons piece at all. And you're asking me to go toe to toe with Giannis and all this stuff. It's funny because Katie and Kyrie get mad when people talk about the off-court stuff, right? They're very, very, very on the board of basketball, basketball.

It's all about basketball. I just want to hoop. I don't care about this other stuff. The problem for them and the problem for anybody who's an elite athlete in this sport is that we only have 18 to 20 guys to talk about, right? They're going to have this salary cap that's going to boom in the next three years because of the meteorites deal and Kevin Durant is going to be worth $80 million in the open market, whatever it is.

The interest and the microscope on these guys when they're signing $400 million deals for five years, the expectations that's going to come with that in a 30 team league, 32 team league, this stuff's only going to get worse. We're going to talk about this stuff 12 months a year because we love basketball. And it almost seems like they don't fully understand that's how the game works. Especially this, when it's a soap opera like this.

They don't want us talking about it. They want them talking about it through their channels and their Twitter feeds. It's not that they don't want to talk about it, but it's like, hey, man, this is how we drum up interest in your sport. This is how this thing works. their channels and their Twitter feeds. That's not, it's not that they don't want to talk about it, but it's like, Hey man, this is how we drum up interest in your sport. You know, this is how this thing works.

This is how you get an $80 million a year deal. You know, this is, this is just, this is the game. And, um, and that's a whole nother discussion. I just, I, I, I kind of just, the new media thing. Uh, I don't know if you want to, you want to get into that. So I don't know. Do you want to get into that at some point? I don't know if that relates to it, but to me, the new media has been around this whole time. I mean, certainly, like, you've been doing a podcast with Raja for the last two years. The fact that he's not playing anymore,

he's still under the hood. To me, it's all about who can take us under the hood and tell us things that I can't tell from going to games and watching TV, right? More like who can control their narrative at that point. But that's my fear with this new media stuff is it's not unfiltered. It's actually going through a different kind of filter which isn't any better or worse than the filter of the

non-basketball people have. And this was before Draymond's podcast, but that interview he did with KD, what was that for Turner or NBA TV? Yeah, it was for Turner. Were they sweeping stuff under the rug and they're just like, oh, the media blew that out. It's like, the media didn't blow anything out. The media was there covering it every day.

You were there in those locker rooms seeing how fucked up that season was and everybody around it was talking about it. There's no spin on that. That was the situation. That's why it's just hilarious to hear that because in the trenches, you don't know how tense that was

for those, God, three, four months? Yeah. Until, I mean, it's still tension, but there was tension from the time that argument happened. And I do want to get back to Brooklyn, obviously. But from the time that that happened until Kevin walked out on crutches with that torn Achilles, man, like it was every day. Every day there was just there was something or there was just some creative tension. And I don't care how they try to spin it. And I know both of those guys, but it's, it's hilarious just to see that spin. It's almost like the Kobe, um, last year, you know, it's almost like that, right. Where you just, well, we're just going to say it our way and things in that, in that way. And we're going to say it our way. And hopefully that that sticks and there is truth, not to say like that interview

that you referenced, there's truth, a lot of truth to that. And we got a lot of candid responses and we got a lot of insight into their, um, into their relationship. But I think that like, it's going to come to a point where you're just going to have to take pieces out of, out of different arguments and just kind of put it together too. And then the truth will come in somewhere in the middle. I think that's a really important point. I think this stuff is really valuable to have. I just think we have so much inside information and so much insight when we see an interview like that, that we know what's bullshit and what isn't. I don't blame those guys for doing stuff like that.

It's no different than celebrity journalism or anything else. You're going to spin it the way you want to spin it. And that's the thing. I think there's more of an onus on fans than ever just to grab the information from these different spots and then try to piece it together for yourself and see what you want to believe well another thing on that is like right now when you talk about journalism it's the reason why it's one-sided

because we want it to be so fast and and we don't you know back in the day and i talked to all my ogs it's like you would call the other side at least for comment. We don't even do that anymore. It's more of like, oh, I heard this. It's going to come out 15 minutes later. And that's why it's so slanted, in my opinion. We don't take enough time to just call the other side. Because, I mean, that's just the fair way to do it.

And you get better stories when you do that. We're going off on a tangent here. No, it's an important tangent, though, because you were a young reporter. And you get better stories when you do that. We're going off on a tangent here, but like that's basically where we're at. No, it's an important tangent though, because like you were a young reporter and you were actually there every day and you develop relationships with different players, right? We just had a Ringer NBA meeting last week and we were talking about the importance of still trying to have relationships with people you're covering, which unfortunately has become harder and harder as basketball players have become more and more famous, more and more wealthy. They have more

and more people around them who control their brand. It's really hard to cut through that in an authentic way. And you really have to spend time with somebody and win their trust. And I think that happens less and less, which is why it's so much more transactional. When you win their trust, you also have to be fair, right? Like you can't, it's not when you're trust and I'm a mouthpiece for you. It's when you're trust and I like, I'm going to say some shit

that you're just not going to agree with. It is what it is. And you're going to just do some things that like maybe I wouldn't agree with, but like, that's just the game. And I think we've just gotten away from that. Yeah, we can have a constructive conversation. We don't have constructive conversations

anymore. When they do it, it's just like, oh, I'm over this. It's done. We're done. We're done now. It's tough because when we hit the point where Harden quits on two teams in two years and Kyrie does all the stuff he did last year and Ben Simmons refuses to play

for the Sixers and you have all these touch points, those guys should be criticized. And that's the way it goes. Everyone on that team should be criticized, I think. Kevin deserves some blame. We haven't talked about Harden yet, but Harden deserves some blame in that instance too. Yeah yeah you are annoyed that Kyrie is doing what Kyrie is doing but like also there's real human emotions like you're all like you also came back to play with someone that you grew up with and Kevin Durant right and then you get he gets injured and all of a sudden you by all intents and purposes quit after um because there were two instances, like, during that season where they had, I think they had two votes on Kyrie's team, the Nets did. There was, in the beginning of the season, there was a vote to, you know, not have him play on the team, you know, for the beginning of the season.

And Harden was one of the guys that was like, okay, I vote not for him not to play. Right. And then when I run the time, when they needed them, they were having injuries and things like that. There was another vote. Do we want Kyrie to come on the team or not? Do we want him to play? And he voted to have him play on the team. Right. And so like, there are these things where you, you could have made your voice known a bit more. You get what I'm saying? You could have made your voice known a bit more in these things. And also if you're gonna stand on that then stand on it if you if you want kairi to play then you gotta kind of play with you know what you especially if it's a midway

through the season you know and then you quit you quit and then you get traded for then you get make sure you go get traded while like your guy that wanted you here and that got you out of Houston is injured. Then you go through this process. And he deserves some blame, too. Kyrie deserves some blame for not being there for his teammate. Kevin deserves some blame for kind of hitching his wagon to a lot of these guys that have been in this situation for that, that he knows that he knows then there's a lot of blame to kind of go around here. And we're kind of,

but we can't get that during this new era. I can't just say you're a great player, but you deserve blame for this anymore. That's what I feel like. That's where we're at. Yeah. And it's tough because with basketball, these guys have such an outsized impact on their franchises,

right? Football, which I think there's been a little bit of a flip-flop where people love football and people are frustrated by basketball, where it was maybe the opposite seven, eight years ago. In football, the quarterbacks matter the most. There's no question. But it's really because of the way football is. And you played football in high school, so you get it. There's still a respect for the team. there's still a team over the player but now you have three quarterbacks on a team right now your big three is three got like you know kairi james and

kevin all legitimately are quarterbacks they're on my homes my home they're all that good they're all that good and now you have that's why it's so hard to have these types of teams, right? Like even Golden State, which was, or even Golden State, which was this, you know, this poster for alleged good vibes. Well, honestly, when you actually look in hindsight, it was just a lot of shit getting swept under the rug

that was serious. Especially the second title season, I think was unhappier. West alluded to it a couple times, but for the most part, they kept some stuff in. The first season was the best. I think everybody agrees that was one of the best professional experiences for all those guys. But I think it got...

The Durant-Curry thing, as you said, when one guy's Mahomes and the other guy's Josh Allen, that gets weird. I'm glad you, the Warriors piece. So I talked about this on a pod a couple months ago where I said the only way I thought Durant was getting traded was if it

was Golden State. And I thought there was real interest on both sides. And Joe Lacob was behind the scenes really enchanted with the idea of going after Kevin because I think he sees the dynasty piece of this. And in a big picture, I could go down in history as owning this team that was this iconic basketball team, right? So there's interest on his side. There's interest on the KD side.

There's a package that makes sense. I don't think anyone else in the Golden State organization wanted to pursue Durant, but Curry said in an interview last week that he confirmed it, that this was real. We kicked the tires on this, we talked about it, and I was all for it. Do you actually believe that? Yeah, because during that time, there's a lot of layers to this,

so we'll get through all the layers, but the Steph layer I'll go with first Steph around that time was like openly like kid kidding haha like Kevin could come back right he was he was just like I was around the summer during summer league and things like that yeah about he would this is the first time he said it on record so we can kind of speak on it but um he was just like kind of kicking like, you know, he might be back in the step way. You know, Steph, he does. He doesn't outright say it, but he'll laugh and like do one of those things. But he always has his message always comes through. But there were there were definitely there was mutual interest on both sides. I remember hearing whispers, you know, around Brooklyn when I come back that sometimes, you know, Kay would say like, yo, if this shit doesn't come together, you're not going to like jokingly, you know, jokingly.

This shit doesn't, you know, get his stuff together. Then you can always go back to Golden State. You know, there's always there's always a chance to go back to to go to stay there. And this is just even on outward post with Kevin. Like, have you ever seen a star that has moved, clearly moved on from a team, but the conversation always goes back to the team he used to play for. Like,

I don't even, you never see that, but like every time there's on Twitter, there's, there's always an inflection point that he always responds to golden state stuff. It's never net stuff. It's never things like that.

Let's juxtapose that with LeBron. Does LeBron talk about who was the last team he was on? The end of Miami. Does he always end up talking about the end of Miami? No. Does he always end up talking about the end of Cleveland? No. Every time he talks about Cleveland, he's like, hey, I came back.

Or I came back. I brought them a title. I brought them a title. But LeBron is clearly in Los Angeles. He's clearly there. His ten toes are all in Los Angeles right now. He's never always looking back, but there always seems to be like, Kevin's always looking backwards on that to the Golden State era.

That's insecurity about how that whole run was perceived. Where he felt like he proved that he was the best player in the world. He went toe-to-toe on LeBron and beat them and then didn't get the credit for it. And now as Steph ascends and becomes the most famous player we've had since the ascent of LeBron. And then after what happened in the 22 finals it's not all that stuff gets dragged back you also brought up the Laker part of this and I do before we talk about what you just talked about I want to talk about the Laker point of this where Laker more than anything I don't know what owner to I wasn't really alive during Jerry Buss like that but like he's a owner that always wants

to be in the conversation right so like if yeah it was tight to win a title but if we won a title and got kd back again and ran it back yeah like we're the most famous team in the league well they're already the most famous team in the league but like joe lakob loves to just have like not only win the championship but win the headline while winning the championship like after they won in 2018, what did he do? He could have gotten somebody else, but he got DeMarcus Cousins. Why? Because it's really tight to see at media day that we can get DeMarcus Cousins on the mid-level exception. And just, we want to dominate you.

And after winning the title, if we can go back and just go trade for Kevin Durant and just get this reunion the way it was supposed to and just run off into the sunset? Let's do it. Remember, right after, if you look after the, I think it was opening night of 2018, Laker, as he's giving KD the ring, he's like, stay. Just stay. You know you want to do it. Just stay after all of that.

And, you know, there is a part of Laker that's like, yo, man, let's just do it. We're going to compete for a title, but let's just never end out. Let's just build this for as much as long as we can. Let's just win as long as we can during this window. And that's Laker. It's too bad it didn't work out that way. Well, you mentioned Laker. The Celtics, I think as an organization, were not interested in Durant, but Wick was, the owner. It ties into this whole Wick-LACUB thing. LACUB was a minority

owner for the Celtics. He leaves, does the Golden State thing. Golden State beats the Celtics in the finals last year. There was the LACUB-Wick stuff. Not like a feud or anything, but just like, all right, that's the minority owner who leaves who now beat me, and now Durant

is sitting there as this little prize in the little Celtics Warriors War. And I honestly believe that was the only reason he even had meetings about it. It was like, I don't want Lake to get this guy. During the pre-finals press conference

in June. Lakob spoke. It was like impromptu. No one like he just came in. No one asked. I'm going to talk. No one asked. He was like, I'm going to talk. And he said something. They asked him about the Celtics warriors. Just like he asked about the Celtics. And, you know, if you know, like, you know, he grew up. He was in Massachusetts, a really big Celtics fan growing up. Listen to Johnny most like just narrate the dynasty. That was his thing.

But he still had, he said all those things about his love and respect for the Celtics and hopefully that he does it. But the last thing he said, he had to dig at the stuff. He said, unprompted. Yeah, we own our building. I think they leased their building. I think they leased their building.

We own ours though. It was just hilarious. Like that just, that just, that just speaks to him all. building. I think they leased their building. We own ours though. It was just hilarious. That just speaks to him. He's so competitive and just wants to one-up the Celtics because I guess, maybe in his heart of hearts, he might have wanted to own the Celtics back in the day.

No, that's 100% what it is. There's some rich guy bullshit going on with that. It's like a big dick swing battle all the time. You were there in the finals. In the NBA finals last year. You were there. You seen how it was. It was a

very interesting tension there. And the Celtics and the Warriors don't have an historic rivalry, but there was just a little oomph in that. There was a little big brother, little brother stuff, which is why I was so mad that Tatum went to Draymond's wedding because I was like let's actually try to hate these guys we've talked

about please don't be friends please don't be friends with these guys i think you should i don't know this but i think you should be a little concerned about yourself i think you should be a little bit concerned about i am a little concerned not just about like the tatum aspect of it but like i'm curious to see how they respond to this Durant trade rumor. Right? Because that trade rumor was a little weird because it came like three weeks after the like the talks were even

talked about, right? Like it was like a late rumor. It came out like... I think they feel like it got leaked to try to undermine them that I think there was a lot less truth into it. If I call you and I'm like,

I heard you're moving out of your house and getting rid of all your stuff. What are you going to do with the bad boys poster? Does that mean I try to trade for your bad boys poster or did I just ask about it? I think more so they sabotaged and moved me to LA. Logan, I want you to move to LA.

This is the thing that I want you to do. And like, you kind of like play mind games and give me like to move down. I don't know what that is. Guess what? You didn't move. It didn't work. No, but I think with that, I do think there was, you know, is Durant really available? Well, what are we talking here?

And they're like, we want Tatum. I was like, well, Tatum's never getting traded, so that's not happening. And the Nets come back with something, and the Celtics are like, all right, well, let us talk on our end, and we'll circle back. That's not, we offered this for blah, blah, blah. But it seemed like that happened,

right? And then three weeks later, it gets leaked when the situation is already done, right? Where it's like, we've already kind of washed our hands. That was the vibe it got. It was undermining. Look, the biggest issue with the team is that Jalen is underpaid for being a

top 25 guy in the league. He's got two more years left on his deal. They're limited in the extension they can give him. And the media rights deal is coming where he's going to be worth $70 million in the open market. And that is how this affects this season. I have no idea. I trust the Udoka relationship with these guys.

But it's an X factor that they didn't have last year. More so, I think, let's get back to the Tatum thing really quick. Me and you have talked about this offline, but you kind of want your star after he got embarrassed in the finals to just disappear for two months, right? Just go in the lab and just disappear for two months. Right. Just go,

go in the lab and just be really upset. Do the magic Johnson, 1984. I'm so depressed. We lost. People are worried about my health. Kind of. Yeah. Take it that way.

That's what I really want out of my star. And I just, I hope that I like, I want, I want Jason. I really love Jason. It was a basketball player. I want him to have that.

Fuck it. Like post finals. You have me fucked up. I really love Jason Tate. He was a basketball player. I want him to have that fuck it, like, post finals, you had me fucked up. I'm going to average 30, 7-7, and I'm going to win MVP type year. I want him to have that year, but I'm just disappointed. I don't want to see him with Jay-Z a week later,

week after, like, losing in the NBA finals when you clearly weren't ready for the moment. Maybe that's just the world we've created in sports though. This is just how it is. I don't like it, man. I didn't even know it was crazy.

I've been getting, I don't like it either. I'm in the old age, right? Not old age, but like I'm getting to the age right now. So where, like I went to my cousin's basketball game,

like AAU basketball game this, this weekend. And I was told, I was in the time where I'm like, damn, I'm old now. Like I'm, I'm older now because I the time where I'm like, damn, I'm old now. I'm older now because I'm having these thoughts that I never thought I would have as a young person.

We're like, oh, I'm watching out. I was having big get-off-my-lawn conversations about basketball now. I kind of was disappointed in myself, but also was like, I like it. I understand now. I understand why I feel these ways. Come to our side. come to the grumpy old man side. I'm not, I'm not the grumpy old man side, but I'm coming over for coffee.

You know, I'm coming to get some lunch really quickly, you know, and then I'm going back to the, to the, to the young kids table. But like, I don't know, I'm having conflicted feelings about being washed right now, Bill. That's basically what I'm, what I'm at right now. Here's one thing. And then we got to go. I have faith in this young generation of guys who I think are really cool.

Right? Yeah. You're talking about the John Down. Like, basically, 20. I think he's 23, 24. He might be 23. The John Luca Ant? Yeah, I would throw in Cade, Evan Mobley,

who I have all the stock in. A couple of the draft picks. Evan Mobley, who I have all the stock in. Evan Mobley is 37 years old. In a 20-year-old body. But I think all of these guys are going to learn from the mistakes of the generation right above them. Not that they're huge mistakes, but just little things you can take away the same way the LeBron generation learned from the guys from the 90s. That's how the league works. Well, all the young kids that you just named just like love Kobe the way like my generation loved Tupac. Like they didn't know him like that, but we love like the propaganda that Pac gave us. That's the hope that I have for this younger generation.

That's what I like. Like I don't see Ja, maybe this will get thrown in my face six years from now, but I actually could see Ja being a Memphis for life guy. I'm here. This is my team. I went to Memphis this season and I don't think there's another place that I would even want Ja to be

in. I don't think I would want to see maybe Atlanta. Atlanta would be great. If Ja went to Atlanta, that would be another thing, but Memphis is just – Memphis is a beautiful place, and it's just a perfect match. It's like he's a better – in terms of love for a city, Z-Bo is one guy who – he's certified, right? He is certified.

But in terms of – And Tony A. He has the Z-Bo love, but he's a better player, if that makes sense. That's where – one thing before I go, Bill, please talk me – I need a question for you, and I need you to help me talk me off the ledge real quick. Can you talk me off the ledge of thinking that Derek Carr is the Jeff Fisher of quarterbacks? Just really quickly. Just give me some hope really quickly because I just watched two games of the Raiders,

and I'm really – I'm crying right now. I don't feel good. He was honestly bad in both games. I mean, in the overtime, which it just seemed like the refs were rigging the game for the car. I've never, obviously I had the Raiders money line,

so I was going nuts, but it just felt like one of those games or the, it was like professional wrestling, that fourth down flag in the end zone. Still trying to figure out what happened to that. Um, but then they had the ball there. They're moving.

And Carr had Adams right over the middle. And he threw it like four yards behind him. And then even the Renfro one, it's like, why are you checking down and throwing a Renfro with four guys on him? I don't know. I thought he was bad. I thought the LA... So going into this season, all my homies,

because I've been like a lukewarm Raiders fan ever since they left Oakland, but like all my homies was like, they got Devontae Adams. You got to lock in. This is going to be the season. This is the season. If you're going to come back, this is the season, right? And that game against the Chargers was such a winnable game

and if you win that game, it's a tone setter for the rest of the season. And it started and my ear for Carr started in the red zone where he throws behind Wallard on an out. That was the season right there. That's been the season so far. Would have got him up 7-0, set the tone.

They were playing really well. He threw to Devontae Adams like he was Randy Moss. And then they go all the way down the field, and they fuck it up. I'm sorry. I'm just ranting right now. I'm really upset. Well, it's like Cousins last night. There are these certain guys

that can look awesome one week and then another week they're on Monday Night Football and they look like shit and you're like, I can't believe I believed in this guy. It does feel like that was Carr's first two weeks, but he was good last year.

I'm not... I just think he had a bad first two weeks. I wouldn't panic it. Are we going to be nine again? No, I think... I only think there's six good AFC teams, so I think you're fine. You have a lot of talent. You can move the ball.

All right, Logan Murdoch, real ones. You can hear it on the Ringer NBA show with our guy, Roger Bell, and you can read Logan on theringer.com. Good to see you, my man. Thanks, bud. Also, we have Steve Kerr on the pod coming back tomorrow, so I'm just going to plug that right now. We have your bud, Steve, on. He's talking big mess

and also we have a random recruiting pitch for Rajah's son to play football to go to Arizona. So it's going to be fun. It's going to be vibe. So you should check that out tomorrow. Can't wait to hear. Good to see you. At New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a runner.

However you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way, you're free to discover your way. And that's what running's all about. Run your way at NewBalance.com slash running. After decades of shaky hands caused by debilitating tremors, Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons.

Two scientists. One movement disorders coordinator. 58 answered questions. Two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. Learn more at sunnybrook.ca slash special. All right. So I've made a point not to talk about Tim Donahue on my podcast, including not having him as a guest.

I was surprised other shows have had him on because I don't feel like there's a lot of substance in what he talks about when he was a basketball referee. There was a podcast a couple of years ago that our guest Sean Patrick Griffin was on that I thought missed a lot of stuff. I thought it hit a couple of things, but for the most part, it was called Whistleblower. And I'm like, I'm not promoting this. I'm not promoting Donahue. I'm out. And then this Netflix doc happened. It's part of the Untold series. It's about Donahue. And a lot of people have mentioned it to me. And my fear, it's 2022 September, that Donahue's attempt to spin his version of the events from 2003 to 2007 are now becoming the mainstream narrative of the event. So whatever he's been trying to do since 09 is working. Fortunately, we have Sean Patrick Griffin,

who is a professor of criminal justice at the Citadel. And for our purposes, I think the number one student of the Donahue thing, he wrote a book called Game in the Game in 2011, which wasn't about Donahue. It was actually about Jimmy Batista, but there's a lot of Donahue stuff in it. You've been following it. You've been calling it out. There's YouTube clips. There's Twitter stuff. You're not like this deranged person. You're just like, wait a second, what is happening here? And I'm sure, were you more horrified by the Netflix doc than I was or the same? No, I was more. And I'll tell you why though, Bill.

I think these things are awful because if people knew that they were entertainment, okay, that's fine. But it's presented as the story of the NBA betting scandal. And the problem is the public isn't told. It's actually Donaghy's version of the NBA betting scandal. And the problem is the public isn't told. It's actually Donaghy's version of the NBA betting scandal. And the reason I say I really have a problem with this because this one's different. They literally had access to all the key parties. They had access to the pro gambler, Jimmy Batista, the mutual friend, Tommy Martino, the FBI supervisor, Phil Scala,

who I would love to talk about and they selectively edited the interviews to craft Donaghy's narrative and at best the people who looked at it said well maybe it's just a he said he said he said story we have actual evidence yes yes people are pretending that we're

in the fog of war back in 2007 and that's not it at all right and that's my it at all. Right. And that's my real issue with this. And it's worked. Like, kudos to Donahue, because whatever version he's tried to spin, I think has succeeded to some degree.

You mentioned, like, what is, what's the intention, what is the spirit of a documentary, right? This has gotten really messed up over the last few years where we've seen either people producing their own documentary. I've seen them with athletes and singers where they're also the EP on it. I call them documershals where it's like, it's not really, a documentary means we're supposed to be factually accurate. We're supposed to have real journalism in this. There's supposed to be some sort of balance. And this Untold thing, first of all, the series is called Untold.

Everything in here has been told. Was there one revelation in this documentary that you've heard? Because I didn't hear anything. Honestly, goodness, not one. And I don't know if you're aware of this, but I actually spoke with the producers months and months ago. And I actually got in a chippy conversation with one of them. And I said, based on what you're telling me, the show is called Untold, but nothing is untold. Well, turns out I was correct in my assessment based on what information I was being given. So to recap for the audience, we could do this

really fast and then we can get into some nuts and bolts. Donahue makes it seem like this was only one year of gambling, the 2006, 2007 season. And that he was basically threatened by the mafia to continue at this ambiguous December 12th Marriott meeting that he wanted to get out and they threatened him and he had to do it or they're going to basically kill his family. The people, of course, that were threatening him were these two mobsters who weren't even mobsters. One of the people you wrote about, Batista, the meeting pretty clearly did not happen. But more importantly, he was betting on games starting in 2003. And this was either the fourth or the fifth year of him gambling on basketball. And the narrative has always been he didn't bet on games that he was refereeing. All the evidence says the contrary, all of it. Well, he was not only betting on his own games. And by the way, I thank you for what you just

said, because the public has gotten this wrong. And as you know, if you follow me on Twitter, I've really been upset at the media. People think I'm upset at Donaghy. I don't care that a convicted felon is telling tales. I'm a criminologist with a law enforcement background. That's sort of my stock and trade. I'm used to that. I'm not used to people giving someone like Donaghy a microphone and say, tell us what happened, and accepting it as the truth. That's just ridiculous. But regardless, with regard to Donaghy, yes, he was betting on his own games, at least. He only admits to betting on games he officiated going back to 03, straight through 06. And yes, then there was the infamous meeting at the Philadelphia International Marriott, December of 06, which he paints as the mob.

But what the public doesn't realize, the mob actually was his best friend, Tommy Martino, and their mutual friend, Jimmy Batista, the pro gambler. And the reason the meeting happened was because Donaghy was upset that the person with whom he was betting from 03 to 06, Jack and Cannon, just a regular guy, an insurance salesman, Donaghy complained that Jack and Cannon was losing money at Atlantic City and not paying him. And in case you're saying, well, where is Griffin getting this idea? Well, from not only Batista, but Tommy Martino cooperated with the FBI. And that's what he told the FBI. And by the way, that's why if people would wake up, no one was charged with extortion in this case. There was never a mention of organized crime by the FBI or the U.S. Attorney's Office in Brooklyn. It was never treated as a racketeering conspiracy. The only reason we're talking about organized crime is because Donaghy wants you to. of was being one of the dumbest businessmen of all time because he struck a deal with the gamblers

where every time he gave them a correct win, he got $2,000 and if it lost, he got nothing. What he didn't realize because he was an idiot was once it was out there that, let's say he's influencing the games in some way that he's refereeing, that got out there and now millions and millions of dollars are being bet on his game. And you chronicled this. ESPN the magazine chronicled this three years ago. The way the lines moved on the Donahue games,

especially in 06, 07 season when they could really track it, does not add up. It cannot be accounted to like a coincidence. Oh, no, no, no. The lines are moving two, two and a half points on these random basketball games. And he's winning, people think like 78 to 80% of the time. And there's just no way he wasn't influenced in the games

that I can find. Well, no, no, no. Look, if people look at the appendix to gaming the game, I purposely walked the people through the betting lines. I got all the betting lines for the relevant seasons. I had access to Batista's betting records. And don't forget, the professional gamblers cooperated with the FBI. The public is totally unaware that there's an entire cast of characters they've never heard of that bet on these games starting in 03. The only reason they were betting on the games was because they saw the lines moving on games Donaghy officiated. And Bill, your audience should know something. Donaghy's claim was always that he had quote unquote inside information, and that's why he was betting successfully. And his argument was that he could bet equally on games he didn't officiate as those he did. And look, if inside information was the reason, that would make sense. There is not only no evidence of that, there's evidence to the contrary. First of all, all the people who cooperated with the government agree with what I just said. They only were betting on Donaghy's games. The betting lines were only moving even more, when Batista cut his deal with

Donaghy in December of 06, he said, look, I'm a professional gambler. The way we make our good money, our big money, is manipulating the lines around the world. Well, the market starts in Asia, which is 12 or 13 hours ahead, filters through Europe, which is six or seven, so that by the time we bet on them in the East Coast, we've moved the line successfully. So they're going to bet $100,000, $200,000, $300,000 overseas on the wrong side of the line, get the lines to move, and then they're going to hammer it with $2 or $3 million on our shores here. And they told Donaghy, you've got to get those picks in the night before because we need to have time to move the lines. Those were only happening on Donaghy games. And that's why in 06, 07, the lines start moving even more. And by the time you get to like February, March 07, the word is out that Donaghy is fixing games.

Everyone knows. Yes. People who have no idea about the actual nuances of the conspiracy, they're just watching the lines and copying them. And it becomes a snowball effect because then the sportsbooks have to keep moving the line. Well, it's even bigger than that because like our friend Haral, Bob. He's a professional gambler at that point. And one of the advantages he had was he was tracking referee

behavior with the games. And he notices like some really things that just jump out on these Donahue games. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be like, all right, so this behavior, there's way more fouls. There's like distorted calls where one team's getting called for 18 fouls. The other team's getting called for three.

So that's happening in these games where the line's moving by three points. Hmm. Yes. And the word is out. Yes. And that's, and that's what I, and by the way, with regard to the whole idea that the mob visited Donaghy in December of 06, your public doesn't know this.

Donaghy's argument is that he didn't want to be part of this at all, but the mob made him do it, and that he was relieved when the pro-gambler Jimmy Batista went into drug rehab on March 18, 2007, because the mob no longer, and he says this in all the interviews, they didn't have the grips of organized crime in him any longer. Well, what the public doesn't know, because the media won't tell them, and you don't need access to Sean Patrick Griffin's file. He's still, that he was still betting with another bettor? It's in the public record. Exactly. He starts betting now with another professional gambler named Pete Ruggieri, who also cooperated with the government. If you look at Ruggieri's agreement, and you look at Donaghy's agreement and Martino's agreement,

their plea deals go through April of 2007. Batista's go through March for that reason. He went in and he was done, but the scandal continues. And then when Ruggieri shuts the scheme down because he realizes the lines are moving too much and he can't get his edge because he's no longer in control of the lines, he shuts the scheme down. And what happens? Donaghy complains to Martino that he wants one more game. And this is the guy that your audience has been told for a decade from almost everybody in sports media. And now the whistleblower podcast and this ridiculous Netflix special that no, he didn't want to be doing any of it. There's that great line in the Netflix special. If Batista hadn't

threatened you, would you have done this? No, absolutely not. I mean, it's all ridiculous. It's demonstrably false. Well, then he's crafted this narrative over the last 13 years that because he was a referee and he was under the hood with the league, he knew about all these different rivalries and he knew that Dick Pavetta,

his games were more blowouts, that Steve Javie and Allen Iverson had this blood feud, that Joeyavie and Allen Iverson had this blood feud, that Joey Crawford loved Allen Iverson. One of the things he said was he would do the home-away game when he would call in on the

bets. He would basically be like, mom was the home team. They would change it. The Netflix special never asked A, can we just look up this stuff and see if this is true or not? All the work has been done. All these things that he said, these edges that he had, they didn't actually bear out during the games that they bet. That's one. Then the other one with the home away thing, what game? If you're

betting on all these different basketball games and you just say home away, that's your code. Obviously, you're talking about your own game exactly exactly but nobody brings this up i don't i'm just like stupefied by the story well i this is cathartic for me because you know people have gotten upset at me on twitter especially because i keep trying politely to correct people on the historical record and i'm not debating this. There's a great example. Again, you don't need access to all the sensitive information. I did what I wrote Game of the Game.

All the work is on the internet. You did the work. ESPN had a piece. Henry Abbott did in 2009. There's another piece, ESPN, the magazine, 2019, that lays all this out. You can see all the data. It exists. Yeah.

And that's the thing. I just don't get... My argument all along, because I've spoken to so many people about see all the data. It exists. Yeah. And that's the thing. I just don't get my argument all along because I've spoken to so many people about this over the years. Don't forget, I speak publicly. So I deal with audiences all the time. What happens routinely is I can debunk this, this, this, and that with facts. I'm not even debating it, you know, and they'll say, okay, fine. I actually wanted to create a website. yeahbut.com, because they go, oh, yeah, yeah, but they're so desirous to believe the conspiracies that are pre-existing in their heads that they'll ignore the demonstrable falses and go, okay, fine, those are BS, but man, that one, I knew that was always true,

and that's what he said. It's confirmation bias on steroids. Well, I remember when his book came out in 2009, and it was going to dive into some of like, you know, first of all, he played the O2 finals card or Western finals card, which was smart. He played the 05 Mavs Spurs series, which was smart, or Mavs Rockets. But it was about like, hey, some of these guys have biases against certain players, which is something I had been writing about on page two for a while. I always had a runny joke about Dick Bavetta. He was the guy they needed in. He was like a wrestling. I would joke about this, but I like 10, 20% believed it. So I was like, oh, this book's going to come out. He's going to take us under the hood of how this stuff works. Everything else was so distorted, like manufactured, whatever, that I just couldn't take any of that stuff seriously after I read it because he was in such a fantasy land about what he actually did.

And it seems like he still is 13 years later. Well, why wouldn't he be? It works. I mean, people don't know about me. They really don't know about Game of the Game. They know about the Hanagy story. And, you know, the thing with all that, look, like you said, Henry did it,

Bob Walgaris did it. There have been a bunch of people who've been doing this over the years. So I don't know. It's a shame. It's very frustrating. As I always say, I'm tilting at windmills. The Scott Foster calls

are kind of the elephant in the room in this because you did some of the work in your book that the gamblers actually bet on a couple of Scott Foster games and lost. So they kicked those bets to the curb. There's a lot of phone calls that really continue to be unexplained that Donahue would call Foster. They would have these brief calls before games. And I guess the story coming out of that was, oh, they were just, they're just really close. They're buddies. But if you do all the Donahue work, this guy seems like a terrible friend. I don't know why anybody would have wanted to be close friends with him. And the theory that I'm just saying is a theory. I'm just espousing this, is people wonder, was Foster getting information from Donahue because he wanted to piggyback his bets?

Right. Is a theory that, of course, was not covered in the Netflix documentary. That, well, and if people watch the documentary, that's one of the things where they see the pro gambler saying that he didn't understand why the NBA didn't do any research. So when Batista, the gambler, talks about a cover-up, he's not talking about any of the nonsense Donaghy's talking about. He's talking about that issue specifically, which is, to our knowledge, nobody, including the FBI, nobody has ever, because don't forget,

the FBI originally bought Donaghy's BS. He was the first person to approach them. Four FBI field offices researched his claims about all the NBA conspiracies. Well, and they weren't basketball guys, so they didn't really know what to look for, right? Right. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Which, by the way, I could also talk about how they reviewed Donaghy's game tape in a moment. But with regard to that, they, of course, travel the country. One of the guys told me a funny line was, I wish the taxpayers realized how much other money we wasted tracking down his nonsense. Well, with regard to that, with Foster, yes, they bet a few of his games and they kicked them to the curb. Batista argues no one ever researched, including the FBI, whether, because they didn't really weren't sure of Donaghy fixed games, whether Foster was picking back in the games. And we certainly don't know if the NBA also investigated

whether Foster was actually betting on Donaghy's games. Everyone was looking at Foster fixing games. That's a separate issue. Yeah. We're not accusing one way or the other, but what they didn't look at is after he talked to Donaghy, what was his next call? What was his call an hour later? And that's what they didn't investigate. Well, and again, that's what Batista's argument was. Don't forget, Batista's a hustler. And so for him, it made no sense that people with access to this information wouldn't be trying to figure out a way to use it. And so that's what we'll never know. But anyway, see, I'm not making any allegations either. I'm just saying that to our knowledge, that was literally never even pursued. It's just never been answered correctly.

I still do not, all these years later, 15 years later, understand why Donahue and Scott Foster would have very short calls over and over again during the NBA season when we now know that Donahue was a crooked ref. The whistleblower podcast, which I thought really missed so much stuff

and I'm sure you were as frustrated with it as I was, they did hit one thing that I think is really fascinating and a piece that got lost in history with this is that they come to Stern, they tell him he has a crooked ref, they tell him who it is, and their thought is...

I actually don't know what their thought is because they're also trying to groom Donahue to basically take them on to find out if there are more crooked refs. They want to see how far this goes, but they tip off Stern. They tell him he's upset. And then all of a sudden, the New York Post has a story two, three weeks later. And the podcast was pretty, pretty adamant at pushing the theory that Stern tipped off the New York Post because he wanted to blow up the investigation.

Do you believe that was true? I actually don't have an opinion on that, but just so we're clear here, don't forget, they're not looking for other referees fixing games. They're believing Donaghy's argument that the NBA is dictating game outcomes. That's the rabbit hole they're going down. So when they say that they want to wire him up or whatever, and by the way, I shouldn't even

say that. When we say the FBI, you're hearing the words of the FBI supervisor of the unit, which housed the investigation. Your audience probably has never heard the names Paul Harris and Jerry Conrad. They're actually, Paul Harris was the case agent, that's FBI lingo for the lead agent, and Jerry Conrad was his partner. They know more about this case, they'll forget more about it than you and I'll ever know, and yet the public doesn't even know their names. That's a problem, and I can't wait for them to retire so they can finally speak publicly about this. Scala, because he's retired, he gets the mouthpiece, and he gets to say things like, oh, we were dying. He also says, by the way, in the whistleblower podcast, he wanted to go into the NCAA. Well, is he really alleging that

the scandal had referees fixing games in the NCAA? No, he's talking about the idea that leagues are dictating outcomes. And there's no evidence of that. And if you're an FBI supervisor or not, I mean, we're all welcome to our own conspiracy theories, but the idea that leagues are dictating outcomes, yeah, look, people like me would love something like that, but there's no evidence of it. And the league wanted this to go away. That was their big goal. They had an investigation that I don't even, the Petowitz investigation, which I think missed a lot of stuff, obviously. And then Stern was like, well, we've studied this.

We investigated this. It was one ref. And yet, even though he didn't bet on it, he didn't fix his own games. They said all that. But if you read between the lines, which is something you did really well in the last part of your book,

they didn't rule out that he influenced his own games either. They didn't come out and say, we have done all the homework. He did not do this. They left it ambiguous and they've left it ambiguous ever since. Well, wait, Bill, it's even worse than that because in response to the ESPN,

the magazine article you referenced, the NBA put out a statement because the ESPN article by Scott Eden wrongly said that the NBA concluded he didn't fix games. The NBA immediately issues a statement and says, the NBA concluded he didn't fix games. The NBA immediately issues a statement and says, we never concluded he didn't fix games. And in fact, David Stern, when he was alive, he was deposed in one of the hearings when the sports legalization issue was being resolved. And he was asked by one of the senators, and he says under oath,

no, we never concluded he didn't fix games. So they're on record saying that they never concluded he didn't fix games. But to your point, it's good business. And the thing is, even with that TV deal that's referenced in the Netflix documentary and it's referenced in the Whistleblower podcast, there's a difference between realizing there's this- Wait, you got to explain that TV deal and then do your point. Yeah. All right. So the allegation is that the NBA had this big TV deal on the verge of being cut. Their new media rights deal. Yeah. It's coming. And they're going to rush it though, because they now realize this Tim Donahue thing is brewing

and they're going to get this out of the way. Well, two things about that. First of all, that doesn't necessarily mean it's conspiracy. It might just be good business. That's number one. But number two, you can actually, it's 2022. You can reach out to all the media partners and ask them, hey, did you think you guys got shafted here? Do you think that you got, you know, would you have done this if you had known? Yeah. Why are we even talking about the NBA? You can actually approach these things. And in 2022, look, there are ways for people to get access to people like you or anybody who's prominent in the media, even without being noted, being named.

You can get your word out if you're upset about something and we have no evidence of that. It was a really rough time for the league and I wrote about it a lot at page two because there just wasn't a lot of people writing about it. From 99 to 07, there were just some really strange playoff series.

There just was. The Bucks and Sixers won in 2001, which got swept under the rug of history. It's really strange. Some of the Knicks stuff, like the four-point play with LJ, the Western Finals was the worst one, Lakers-Kings. But on down the line, and this was a narrative

with everybody who cared about the league and talked about it, leading to the 06 finals when Wade turns things on Dallas. They win in six. The calls are horrendous in game three and game five. I wrote a whole piece

about how it was an official officiating crisis that Cuban then put on his blog was like, I love this piece or something like that. So then the Donovan thing happens in 07 and it really did feel like it was a crisis. So I understand they wanted this to go away. I just think it's been glossed over

how much havoc he wreaked that season. And the FBI didn't know what to look for, right? You mentioned it before. Like, they don't know what they're studying. It could only be he's correctly interpreting some of the calls, right? But it's stuff like, oh, I'm going to call two fouls on Andre Godal at the beginning of the third quarter of this game. Now he has four.

They have to take him out. And now the Sixers, he's their best scorer. It's little stuff like that. It could only be like two calls. Would it Batista say swing at six points? Now the Sixers, he's their best scorer. It's little stuff like that. It could only be like two calls that can, what did Batista say, swing at six points? Well, that Martino actually said that. Or Martino.

The issue is that the pro gamblers, when I interviewed them back in 07-08, they told me that they knew right away what he was doing. Their argument was he was calling technically correct calls that are never called. And he was calling them in the right strategic way, as you just suggested, whether it's palming, illegal defense, things like this. And Donaghy, he correctly says, I was one of the highest rated referees. Well, he was. And he also was notorious for calling

more calls than everyone else. Well, if that's how you're fixing a game, well, yeah, that's not going to get picked up. And to your point about the FBI agents, this is not a knock against the FBI agents, but having a handful of FBI agents look at game tape. Well, I mean, how would they know what to look for? And there's a bigger point to that. Donaghy told the FBI he didn't know what games he bet. Well, stop right there. Well, if you're the FBI, what are you looking? And beyond that, if you don't know the games, well, A, you don't know what side he picked. And then you certainly don't know the betting lines and the betting propositions. So that whole endeavor was a waste of time from the beginning.

And the only thing I wrote in Game in the Game as a criticism of the FBI was they didn't have access to Batista, the gambler, or to his electronic betting records, which I did. Fine. But those betting lines are public. You don't need a search warrant or anything like that for those. My argument all along was if they had the betting lines before they ever talked to Donaghy, they could have explained to him, hey, look, there are these odd patterns. You can say whatever you like. The data is the data.

That would have been very helpful. And they just never did that. They didn't know. And incidentally, when Game in the Game came out, I had already been dealing with the FBI guys for the last couple of years. They were learning from me as much as I was learning from them because they just, they didn't know. And the public doesn't need to know this. The FBI guys were an organized crime squad in Brooklyn. They weren't prepared for a white collar gambling case in the suburbs of Philly.

And they weren't fond of traveling two hours down all the time to go research this. And it was just a nuisance case to them. And once they realized that Donaghy would plead guilty to at least subconsciously influencing games because he had a financial interest, and Martino pleaded guilty, and Batista was willing to plead guilty, they were willing to say, okay, look, we're never going to be able to prove to a jury whether a referee fixed games or not. And we're done. That was literally the extent of this.

And the FBI guy, and I quote them in the book, this was not a big deal to them. It's a big deal to me. It's a big deal to sports fans. But to the FBI guys who are doing like mob cases and murders, this was a nuisance. Well, one other thing he did, I can't remember who said this in your book.

I think it was one of the other guys, not Donahue, but he could influence the other guys. So he's there with the three refs and they said he was a little devious. He would plant certain things because he felt like he could almost subconscious you know, he had some feel from being on the road, at least like, you know, from the players, things he overheard. Like he had like little inside information that people like you and I wouldn't have.

But the facts are the facts. We at least have those 07 games. But if you go back, what was, one of the confusing things was why didn't we have more info from 03 to 06 on the stuff that he bet? Well, a couple of reasons. First of all, don't forget, back then, the pro gamblers

are waiting for Tim Donaghy's friend Jack and Cannon to place his bets. So sometimes they're getting late, so they can't really move the market the way they want. So they can only get so much down. So it wasn't until the 06-07 season, they kind of fixed that, did it way earlier. Yeah. And then they could really go crazy. Yeah. So like up until

then, and that, like I say, when they met in 06, that was, and by the way, going back to the Donaghy allegations, if you look at what the FBI and the US attorney's office says, they described that infamous mob meeting at the Philadelphia International Marriott, the feds actually write in Donaghy's plea deal, in Donaghy's plea deal, that they had arranged a meeting. It wasn't like he showed up as they show on the Netflix thing, was shocked and was scared. You know, he says in some interviews that he was shaking. It was, they all knew this was happening and they knew why it was happening. And then the, and then the judge actually says beyond the meeting thing, she said it was a business arrangement. And she says that Donaghy was quote unquote, more culpable than Batista and Martino. And the reason I'm upset at the Netflix people and the whistleblower people is because they knew all of this. These, the

whistleblower was 2019. This is now, you know, 2022. And I gave them all this stuff. Yeah. And I don't need to be a part of these things. Some people think that's what this is. I'm background for all sorts of documentaries all the time. That's not the issue. I can't imagine that people ignore truth and history for the sake of a sensational narrative. I'll never understand that. Listen, I'm not comparing this to the OJ murders because people actually died in that and it was way worse. But if OJ was out there for the last 13 years with his version of what happened and we knew it wasn't true and they made documentaries and podcasts with this OJ version that wasn't true, I feel like people would care.

And because this is lower stakes, I get it. But just that it got to the point of a Netflix documentary. My last question, why didn't Donahue just admit what he did? Why didn't he just say he was a crooked ref and just explain the process? Why did he commit to this narrative of, no, I actually, I didn't bet on my own games. It was actually, I'm just this magical handicapper with all my inside knowledge and I didn't do it and they threatened my life. How does this make it better for him? Wouldn't it make more sense to actually just explain to people what you did? I'm a scumbag. I had a huge gambling problem. That's why I did it. I know I should know, but here are all the things you could look for. There's a better, more altruistic version for this to play out.

And instead, he just picked the scumbag route again. I have done hundreds of these, Bill, and you're the first person to ask me that question. And it's a great question. His answers are twofold. Number one, he would tell you, if you can get in his head, because he writes about this in his book and he talks about it frequently, his father's only worry was that he was fixing games. Well, we should mention his father was a very well-respected ref. Legendary, well-regarded, exactly. Yeah. I know people who love his father. I mean, very well-regarded person. That's number one. But the second thing is, and this is where my

background in criminology comes in, if he had ever admitted to fixing games, his criminal culpability goes through the roof. He only admitted to betting on his own games for a handful of games in the 06-07 season. If he actually pleaded guilty to A, fixing games, and B, going back to the 03-07 season, the way that fraud is charged is it's on the loss to the victims. Well, Bill, think about calculating the loss. If you could actually show, and I argue I do this in Game in the Game, that an NBA official was fixing games for four seasons. Yeah, you're not just talking about ticket holders. You're talking about TV revenues, managers, players who are- Playoff shares for players, yeah.

The numbers would be astronomical. It's definitely in his interest legally to say no, no, no. I was just betting and it was 06, 07. Wow. Well, the crazy thing is he worked the 07 playoffs and he was in that famous Sun Spurs series that the Spurs ended up winning that

I have some... I was on record writing pieces about he reffed one of the games. I was talking about how terrible the officiating was in the game. He was one of the refs, but we don't know if he affected any playoffs. We don't have any data with that. But anyway, listen,

I'm really glad we got this. We got this out there. And more importantly, if people want to go and pick up your book, which they can get, it's on Kindle. You can get the hardcover. You can listen to it. There's an audio version of it, but it's really interesting. And most of it's about Batista and what it's like for this career gambler and how he kind of rose to whatever prominence he had in that industry. But then you had this whole Donaghy piece. you didn't even realize you were going to... And then that became a big part of the last half of the book. Well, importantly, with regard to that half of the book, yes, I was the first person to speak to Batista. But with anything of controversy with the NBA

betting scandal, you get all three participants' versions of events. I wanted someone when they read the book 50 years from now and they say, okay, well, I want to know about the NBA betting scandal. I want them to pick up game in the game because like, for instance, the profits Donaghy says he earned 30 to 40,000. Martino says he paid him 115 to 120 and Batista says that he paid him 201 to 209. I don't take a position on that. I just tell the public, this is what they say. And you know, it is what it is. So if you could ask Donahue one question, what would it be? Did you stop gambling on March 18th, 2007? Well, we kind of know he didn't, right? I know, but I want to hear not one person of the thousands of interviews he's done has asked him that question. And I would, I just want to see it.

I'd want to know, did you stop gambling during the 2007 playoffs? Okay, that's a good one too. Well, listen, if you want to get into this, I also want to ask if he actually was betting on his own games before 2003, which I strongly believe he did.

All right, there you go. I only wrote what I could demonstrate. Sean Patrick Griffin, I wish we had done this sooner. I'm sad that we had to do it at all, but I'm glad we did it. It's good to see you. Thank you very much, Bill. All right, that's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Ariel. Thanks to Sean Griffin. Thanks to Logan Murdoch. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Dylan Burke as well. And we'll be back with Million Dollar Picks on Thursday and a big football show. And also, I'm going to bring back the thing where I do the four things I've been thinking about at the top. I forget what we even named it. It's been so long since I did it, we didn't even have a name for it,

but I'm bringing it back. So I'm going to have some random thoughts on a lot of things on Thursday as well. Stay tuned. See you then. that.