The Bill Simmons Podcast - Butler Busts Boston, Plus 2022 Lottery Overreactions With Kevin O’Connor, Ryen Russillo and J. Kyle Mann

Episode Date: May 18, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O’Connor, Ryen Russillo, and J. Kyle Mann to discuss the Heat’s Game 1 win over the Celtics in the Eastern Conference finals, Jimmy Butler’s excellent performance, the Celtics’ pitiful third quarter, series predictions, and more (1:56). Then they discuss the NBA draft lottery selection, what the Orlando Magic should do with the first overall pick, the best fit for the Thunder at no. 2, where the talent drop-off is in the first round, fake trades, and more (28:45). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin O’Connor, Ryen Russillo, and J. Kyle Mann Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, if you love the rewatchables, did you know we put up a new episode on Monday? E.T. The Extraterrestrial, one of the most famous movies of my lifetime. Me, Mallory Rubin, Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey broke it down. If you want to hear five years of the rewatchables, go to our archive on Spotify. Last 45 days, available on all platforms. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since

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We're also brought to you by the ringer podcast network. Put up a new rewatchables on Monday. E T also prestige TV pod. Me, big was Chris Ryan broke down the third and fourth episodes of We Own This City a spectacular show we explain why

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the Prestige TV podcast check it out. Fando Sportsbook, by the way, doing a same game parlay this week, probably looking at something for game two of Celtics Miami on Thursday night. So stay tuned for that. Maybe we can figure out something in the four to one, five to one range. And then coming up on this podcast, very top reacting to Miami Celtics game one. And then we're going to show in real time

how me, KOC, Brian Rosillo, Kyle Mann, all reacted to the lottery as it was happening from about 5.07 p.m. Pacific time all the way through till after. Instant reactions,

how we felt about the trade possibilities, all that stuff. It's all in there. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, taping this 8.30 Pacific time. Ryan Rousseau, Kyle Mann, Kevin O'Connor, they're all here. We convened earlier and did the lottery. That's coming up in a second. We're going to talk about Miami-Boston game one. Can't call this the Jimmy Butler game because he's had a lot of these, but

Priscilla, what jumped out to you about Jimmy Butler taking the manhood of the Boston Celtics away here in the second half of the game? Yeah, I mean, he enjoys this as much as any star in the NBA. Just a little reminder every now and then. We saw it after the end of the Philly thing.

I can't believe that third quarter. If Miami had won tonight, I can't believe that third quarter, you know, like if Miami had won tonight, I wasn't going to be shocked, but to see them dominate it that way. And, and kind of like, you know, it always felt like Boston is the team that goes, Hey, we'll crank this up, but we'll be ready for it because we're expecting it. And it was like, Boston was totally like, wait, these guys are playing really hard in the third quarter.

And I mean, I kept looking up being like, wait, this is 22-2 to start the third quarter. They didn't have I kept looking up being like, wait, this is 22-2 to start the third quarter. They didn't have their first field goal made until seven minutes out of the quarter. So Miami just, I always love this thing about third quarters and really good teams, really good teams show up in that quarter and Miami just owned it

from there on out, even though there's a little scare maybe at the end, but not really. And six turnovers for Tatum in the third quarter. The Butler-Tatum thing was not great in the second half. And at the same time, home team's supposed to win game one, right, Kelsey? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's expected Miami would at least get one of these, especially without Horford and Smart for Boston. But like Ryan said, though, just the way it happened, though, with that third quarter dominance, just Celtics couldn't even dribble the ball up the court. Looked like JV against Jimmy Butler just't even dribble the ball up the court.

Looked like JV against Jimmy Butler, just bullying them, ripping the ball away from Tatum. I mean, Tatum goes from looking like a, you know, top five player in the league to not even close to that in the second half. It was a disastrous second half for him. Tatum's top five volume through the playoffs has been extraordinary. The number of shares that have been traded.

It's very volatile. Yeah, he finishes with a 29-8-6, and it feels a lot worse than that. Kyle, what did you see from a strategy standpoint? The main thing that jumped out to me in that third quarter where it seemed like things really... Miami as a unit can really crank up the speed as one, not just a few guys. Something that really jumped out to me is, and they pointed this out on the broadcast,

we praise Tatum a lot for his, we talk about seeing two. When you're a great scorer like him, that's the thing that you got to develop over time. He's done well at that, but Miami just started really coming uphill on him and forcing his teammates to make back cuts, which they weren't doing. Catching him off guard when they were trying to get into their high post stuff, but daring Tatum to kind of make those backdoor passes and things like that. And he just wasn't responding, but they were also just kind of changing up the speed of how quickly they did it, just making him uncomfortable. I'd assume he'll be more ready for that next time, but Miami just did a great job and Jimmy just feasted on it and getting to the line on the other end.

Celtics had pretty bad game one against Brooklyn. They were lucky to escape that one, but that was the closest they came to losing any game in that series. Bad game one against Milwaukee. Bad game one here. This felt to me like game in that series. Bad game one against Milwaukee. Bad game one here. This felt to me like Miami studied that Milwaukee tape. They picked out like the three to four things. Oh, Boston can't really dribble. Let's take advantage of that.

Oh, if Pritchard's in the game, let's do everything we can to just get Butler iso'd on him at top of the key and let Butler do some stuff. Let's be super physical with Tatum. Let's overplay that little entry pass to the top of the key and let Butler do some stuff. Let's be super physical with Tatum. Let's overplay that little entry pass to the top of the key with our weak side guy and hop that. They won't think to backdoor it.

I think the Celtics will have adjustments to all of this. The big thing for me is smart didn't play. The Horford thing, they could replace his minutes, especially in this series with Tyson, Rob Williams and be okay. But the smart thing, now you lose. You can't switch on everything with Tatum and Brown and smart. All of a sudden, Miami's just

hunting Pritchard. KSU, did you get Kemba Walker bubble 2020 flashbacks? A little bit? 100%. 100%. I mean, that's what Hero did in that game four when he had 37 points against the Celtics in the bubble. It was just Kemba, Wanamaker over and over and over again. And yeah, we did see Miami hunt quite a bit in that fashion.

And that's where having, you know, you play Pritchard 30 minutes, and of course, he had some great moments on offense. But what you lose on defense, it's clear how much they were missing Marcus Smart in tonight's game. And I agree with you more so than Horford. And plus, not to mention, you know, you Tatum, Brown taking the ball up the floor more often and you lose Smart in that sense too. A bit more of a reliable guy to help initiate the offense.

Jimmy Butler, 18 free throws. Felt like the right amount. He was creating contact all the time. We have irrational confidence stars, Rosillo. He's the irrational confidence superstar. I watched this game thinking Jimmy Butler was probably pissed off for the last two weeks that he had to hear about the Jason Tatum party.

I was like, oh wait. Just wait till I get to go head-to-head against Tatum. Felt like he had a little extra to him and Tatum reverted back to that little brother 2018-19-20. You know, he wasn't matching it like he did with Durant and Giannis. And I don't know whether to be alarmed by that or it's just the new series.

What do you think? I do think we're getting almost insane about Tatum when we're updating his Hall of Fame resume every fucking 12 minutes. So if you'll allow me to make that statement, I can move on from there. Because the first half, some of the shots Tatum was making, I was like, are you kidding me with him right now? This is ridiculous what Tatum is doing. And when they were up, I'm like, look, I like Celtics. I like their offensive options here. I thought that the standard that they had played to, which is much higher than what Miami had gone up again. So that kind of baked into my

first two rounds of trying to figure out who Butler was, but Butler who got a lot of love a couple of years ago for that playoff run deservedly. So if you look at some of the advanced metrics on who he was, his PER, if I just want to use that one, it was a 23.8 going into tonight through 10 playoff games, Butler's PR is over 31,

which is like MVP type stuff. If you're talking about a full regular season, it's going to go up even more so. And I think you're absolutely right about the free throws. The Neesmith one where he got the block at the end of the first half and then Butler just baited him right into it. He had the most dismissive look like this idiot. He barely plays. He just gets this sick chase down block. He's like, you might as well not even... I was going to the line. So there's a little bit in there like grant williams is slowly becoming if you close out you can't go for the first up fake guy because it's becoming so predictable the way a bead had that for a while in his game for like two years oh that hitch that hitch he had yeah that top of the key

three where you'd be like stop going for the first movement on it grant has a little of that in him it may need you know a little refresher course on Jimmy because his is quicker and he gets into you. And other guys get into you and it feels forced. He still gets into you and gets the contact. You don't feel like you're getting cheated as bad. So he's going to get his free throws, but you guys could be a little more ready for that up fake.

But I think one of the things you guys keep hitting on here, Pritchard getting hunted at the end on the gabe vincent assignment they did a really good job actually getting tatum back like you don't see that very often where the guy who gets screened into the switch you're like back yeah yeah and then they switch it where they try to get derrick white involved and then i think he backed derrick white down from 23 feet out uh i you know that third quarter was really bad, man. I wouldn't have expected that. A loss without Smart and Horford,

first game in, rest. Okay, yeah. But I think that third quarter was like awful. Well, you know how bad it was? It was the second worst quarter in Celtics playoff history, apparently. Minus 25. The only one that was worse for them

was Game 2 Cav Cavs, 2017, second quarter, that got outscored 40-13. They shot two for 15 in the third quarter, which Goldsberry said was their worst in any quarter over the last four seasons. In the first half, Goldsberry also said they had 42 paint points, which was their most of the half in the last 25 seasons. When you're watching the first half,

it's like, man, too big. They're too big for this Miami team. Those dump downs of Rob Williams because you're helping with Tatum every time. They outscored him, I think, by 16. Then you're thinking Horford's coming back. The size, this is going to be great.

The other thing, just as a Celtics fan, it was just so nice not to have Giannis out there. I felt such a relief just not to have this, you know, apex predator just roaming the court. Instead you get Bam. Right. Yeah, and then Bam in the third quarter turned into, basically started doing a Giannis impersonation.

Kyle, did you see anything from the Celtics side, from a positive standpoint that they can take in the game too? Because I don't think they're going to have Horford in game two, but they will have Smart. So what are you trying to build on if you're the Celtics? Because to me, the number one thing is, and Tatum, we've seen him do this now two straight series. I have faith in him to be able to do this again. But take your time. Don't try to match the pace of the game. Figure it out. Don't be casual with the ball. And just kind of settle into whatever your groove is for this series. What did you see from the Boston side that they can work with? I think it's kind of you always want to work with the advantage of having something to study.

You know, Miami showed them things tonight that I think that Tatum has shown that he's learning. He's he's like adaptable, just slowing down, like you said, and having having smart out there that they can have somebody else bring it up so that like all eyes aren't on Tatum all the time. Not that he's not capable of that. I thought T Tice I don't know if you would agree or disagree I thought the Tice minutes weren't terrible like I thought he had some moments where he did pretty well when he got into switches that's something that like if you can just buy time and bridge between now and when you can get some of those guys back I do think Horford matters in terms of like ball security uh whenever if they want to start from the elbow because Horford's pretty solid around there. I thought

Yudoka got pretty pissed off during one time out. He did. Hang on to the fucking ball or something. But I think the advantage of information there and I don't know. Maybe we'll see more Tice minutes. I think on the playoffs, he's averaging like 13 minutes per game and he got 20 tonight.

Maybe we'll see more of him. KOC, how many Derek Whites are there? I mean, there's a scared one who struggles to score offensively and then there's the grinder on defense. I think we see both versions at all times. It's just sometimes

it works on offense. Other times it doesn't, but I think he's pretty consistent. He's been going back through his time in San Antonio. He's had these ups and downs on offense where it's just, it feels like he's not offering a lot. But, you know, he's always bringing something defensively. I said this to Rosillo Sunday night.

I know right away. I have Derek White. I know in 30 seconds. You could see today he was super I have Derek White. I know in 30 seconds. You could see today he was super passive, Derek White. And without Smart in that game, that becomes a pretty tough task. I don't understand the Gabe Vincent piece of this. Russillo, is it insane to say that they're just better off with Gabe Vincent than Kyle Lowry at 75%?

Because I don't think it is. No, not at all. I mean, Gabe was unbelievable tonight. He was awesome. It's just not. with Gabe Vincent than Kyle Lowry at 75%? Because I don't think it is. No, not at all. I mean, Gabe was unbelievable tonight. He was awesome. It's just not. I mean, that one step back that he hit and then you thought, okay, great defensive possession. Nope.

And then he had that three on the right side. And these were big shots too. Sometimes you'll look down and be like, okay, 17 points. But God, all 17 of his felt, most of them i should say felt like they were huge points and if your two-man action is with him and you trust him and he had the size advantage uh on the on the original assignment depending on how they were trying to align it there uh and the way lowry has looked it's not ridiculous to say that at all

you know because they've tried i think I think that's maybe the scary part on the Lowry storyline is that they tried and it looked that bad. So then you're like, okay, now where are we? Right. Well,

I thought Oladipo was good tonight and I don't think that's always been the case every playoff game either. So I think that was part of the story tonight. The one thing with him

is he does bring the defense. I still, when he's wide open and he's shooting a three, I'm delighted because I don't think it's going in. It was two and nine, but I thought his defense, you're right. His pressure and his athleticism, I thought were really high end.

I'm trying to figure out if I'm trying to talk myself into the Celtics playing a better game too. I think Smart has to come back. I don't know if they can win in Miami without Smart. And the Celtics have been a pretty good road team just in general. What did you hear about Smart, KOC? When do you think he comes back?

Is it game two or later? I haven't heard anything specific about when he could return. It seems like it could be a game two or three thing with him. But I mean, it's like you kind of alluded to earlier, Bill. You can't switch the same way without him. And that's what Boston did so effectively last round against the Bucs. It's what they did against the Nets.

Whereas tonight, they dropped on the pick and roll more often than they switched. They dropped 33 times. They switched 22 times on screens last round against Milwaukee. They switched 206 times to dropping 63 times. So they dropped in the pick and roll over half the time they did throughout the entire series last round against the Bucs. And Marcus Smart with his point of attack defense and his versatility against size is what allows you to do that.

I mean, he is integral. That's what we really found out tonight with Jimmy Butler getting wherever he wanted on the court is when you don't have Marcus Smart, either as a help defender or a guy who's able to switch on to him or the guy who starts out on him, it's going to be a trouble without Marcus Smart at near 100% at the least. And I think they needed his testosterone in this game too. Miami is a very like throw on the tank top, head outside, pop a bottle, and just try to wait until somebody looks at you cross-eyed kind of team. And I felt like in the second half, they got very aggro in a good way.

And I just don't feel like the Celtics matched it. Kyle, if you're a Milwaukee fan right now, what bums you out more, the P.J. Tucker piece of this or the fact that they actually pressured the Celtics who apparently just can't dribble? And the Bucs, anytime they did that, it seemed like they had success. And then they would forget they didn't play Javon Carter, which I continue to think is nuts. But I think the pressuring the ball hitters on Boston is a real advantage for the other team. Miami knew that. You knew Spoh was going to do that. But then the P.J. Tucker piece,

is that Milwaukee series different if they just re-sign P.J. Tucker? Because I'm not sure it is, but I think it's an argument. I mean, Tucker definitely helps in just agitating. I don't know that you're looking for a net result of maybe it equals this or that amount of points. Does it swing one of those games if he's out there instead of Grayson Allen?

Yeah. It might. Yeah, I think a lot of Milwaukee's problem is they just need to upgrade some of their... I really think they miss Devin Chinzo and guys that could attack off the catch. I had a stat for you. Talking about Tatum in the third quarter and the pick and rolls and maybe the problem of not having somebody to steady as Miami

turns up the pressure. Tatum ran 11 pick and rolls in the third quarter and he was.2 points per possession during that time. That's bad. It was just kind of chaos and Miami really capitalized on it. Rusillo, what do I do with the text that I have at halftime saying,

I wish I had bet the Celtics sweep? Do I just throw my phone in the ocean? What do I do? I've got to tell you, I felt very normal at the half. I did. But there is another lesson in all this with the Celtics. When it doesn't go right, it usually means Jalen's been terrible. And his final line is very misleading because there's some buckets there at the end

when it still was like, wait, they're going to sneak this into a game? Are they going to get it to six? But Vincent hit the three. Butler felt like he was scoring. Strews had the big shot. And Boston was kind of hitting a couple threes on their end. You're like, all right, they're just exchanging everybody's shot making right now for a three-minute stretch they're not going to get close enough but um jalen's free throws there was those two free

throws after the the flagrant i think in a year yeah what the hell's going on because he was kind of shaking the ball and i don't i'll never forget like when ray allen towards the end of his career i was like so he can't dribble anymore huh I was like, so he can't dribble anymore. Huh? I was like, Ray Allen just can't dribble. Like if Ray Allen gets it and has to dribble it three times, it's not going to work. I'm like, is he always like this? Jalen is a lot younger than this realization that I had with Ray Allen.

But I mean, I'll ask you guys, has it always been this bad? Because sometimes when he's trying to get going, the ball isn't with him. He's taking these like baby deer steps. He gets butterfingers sometimes. It's really weird. It's his whole career. It's got small hands. Okay, but has it always been this bad with the handle?

I feel like yes. KFC and I have talked about this for hours. I mean, yeah, that was his thing. I mean, it seems like it's improved, but when you get a team like Miami that is so fast and physical, you can kind of start to see the seams a little bit, I think. KOC used to do a thing where he said,

Jalen Brown's dribbling with the wrong hands, but it didn't catch on. So then he moved to Ben Simmons shoots with the wrong hand. And that took off. So it was a workshop thing, KOC. I mean, Jalen was so robotic at Cal. Yeah. Cal Jalen's a completely different conversation.

He's still one of the most amazing turnarounds. So go ahead. I interrupted, but... Oh, no. I mean, you're right, Ryan. Compared to Cal, it's an amazing turnaround. But yeah, I mean, he still definitely has some of the issues that were concerning pre-draft.

It's just against a team like Miami, as you said, that amount of ball pressure, he's still not all the way there. But that's why he's not a number one. He's a two. And he's an or a three. Or a three. One thing I was excited about, Rusillo. Rusillo, I know you love nothing more than white guard versus white guard feuds. And there were some breadcrumbs dropped

with the Harold Pritchard rivalry that shades of Kerr Stockton, 97 and 98, of just two guys who were the same size. Pritchard tried to defend him when they were calling a timeout and I think tried to poke it. And Harold was walking to the bench, turning around, screaming at Pritchard.

I'm like, just keep an eye on that with those two guys. Who knows? It's funny that those things can happen sometimes. And you're like, wait, that happened? I don't know where you're scouting. Where are your combine numbers on them being the same size? Well, they seem pretty close, right? What is it?

The hero's like an inch taller? How tall is the hero? No way. He's like 6'5". Yeah way. He's like 6'5". Yeah, the hero's like 6'5". 6'4", 6'5". How tall is Pritchard? Like 6'2"?

6'1"? Well, I'll tell you what. 6'1"? The way Pritchard's posture was, they looked like they were the same size. He was raising his face. Let me throw this to you. Yeah.

Because I think that there's been, you know, my term, you know, a reclassification. What Grant Williams did in game seven is going to go down in history. Doesn't even matter what happens because it's just been, he's found a way to contribute multiple defensive player, hit threes, keep you honest. Is he possibly the most annoying player in the NBA right now? They just shouldn't mic him up.

They can't. No one's ever wanted to be more mic'd up than him. And then somebody's going to realize like, oh my God, this guy loves to do it. And he's starting to think that he deserves calls like he's a first ballot Hall of Famer. And it happened really quickly. And I have moments like when he started going out with Ime.

And Ime didn't put him in again to close the game. I think Yudoka gets really, really annoyed and I'm telling you that April Fool's joke when they were pretend fighting Yudoka and Grant and then people sort of asked through like, hey, what do you think was going to happen? A couple of players were like, we hoped Ime kicked his ass.

And on top of other stories. Kyle's just rolling his eyes right now because we have a thread about this. I just... It's a tough watch sometimes. That's my thought. This is what I tried to tell people, and this is why I've been wrong about Grant.

He is a good player. He's really good. He's really good. This is what we in the SEC went through with him for years so when he went into the nba we were all just like this fucking guy like seriously so it's just like it was hard it was hard for me that was hard and i it's going to be fun to watch then the broader nba audience acclimate to him like ryan's right it's just but it's funny during that the mic'd up it's like the whole team was just kind of looking around yeah while he was talking the mic'd up

stuff if you have a buddy like that like i was seriously just having flashbacks to a roommate where you're like we don't hate you but god we wish we talked to you less yeah say i wish there was a mute button that came with you i was uh i I was texting a Celtic buddy of mine that if they somehow win the title, Grant's summer and fall dining off the title is going to rank with any annoying, you know, like remember that year, Victor Cruz,

like was in writing a book and doing all that. Like, I do feel like it would be on that level, potentially. Somebody's going to have to have a talk with him. Grant Williams, at one point, I think when he was a rookie, had a podcast with Taco Fall. Maybe he'll start off a podcast again. It reminds me of

when they sent a police escort for Doug Mirabelli after a trade. Sometimes you win the World Series and the Super Bowl, and those guys do pop up, Doug Mirabelli after a trade. There is like, sometimes you win the World Series and the Super Bowl and those guys do pop up though, where it's like all of a sudden

they're on like the Stephen Colbert show and it's like, really? This has happened? I, you know. Hey, I like Grant Williams, but don't make him up anymore, please. I like Grant. I appreciate what he's done

and what he's turned into here in a very short amount of time. It's incredible, you know, because people started thinking at the beginning of the time. Remember Tybo over Grant Williams? I probably bitched about that for two years. He swung that last series.

He absolutely did. I mean, he was phenomenal on Yon. But that's what makes him... The little annoying tendencies he has that'll pop up in the mic'd up thing. That's also, I that's what makes him the the little annoying tendencies he has that'll pop up in the mic'd up thing that's also i think what makes him a good player it's like he's just kind of relentless and he really does think he belongs with all these other guys which i think i'd rather have that quality than somebody who's completely terrified i'm agreeing with i'm agreeing with everything you guys are saying just just for the record but yeah the mic'd up stuff

what you just said you just started shaking your head when I brought it up going, yeah, they just can't. They can't do it. Well, he had that one in the huddle when he was like kind of yelling at everybody like he was Michael Jordan in The Last Dance. And that's when I got a little worried. Because I was like, there's just no way this is flying with like Tatum and Brown. They have to hear this. And Marcus was like over like i could say you could see he was like visibly far away from the huddle at that point i wonder if

he was just like i just can't i don't know i just look the dynamic is so fun broderick thomas of truman state in his in his beach loungewear was like telling Grant, okay, dude. Hey, do you think they should have Ray Allen shoes in the corner from where he made the famous shot? Because somebody made a shot from there today. And I think Van Gundy was like, or Jackson said, no, that's, you know, or Ray Allen once upon a time. And I was thinking like, that has to be the only shot where it should actually be commemorated on the court whatever end it was. I'm not sure which side it was, but I do feel like... No, it's that spot,

because it was Oladipo in the corner, and it was the push by Grant onto Bam, where they called the foul before the shot went in. So we saw it a million times. I think they should do that. Like in Utah, there should be a spot for the Jordan shot, and just on down the line. There's just an obstruction on the court. Small marks, yeah.

Just like a small stick or something like that. Some brass shoes just in the corner. Deal with it. Sorry, they're there. All right, we want to get to the lottery part of this podcast, but before we do that, let's just go quickly. Kyle, what was your prediction for this series before game one and what is it now?

I thought Boston would do it, and I still think they can. Rosillo? I thought Boston would do it and I still think they can. Rossello? I Boston six. That third quarter. Alarming. Was alarming. Was alarming there. I've kind of felt like the whole time.

I just didn't know if Miami was all that. But I wasn't sure if Boston was all that when they were down three to Milwaukee either. So that's kind of how I went with it based on opposition. We'll see. But yeah, a little shook after that third quarter. KOC? I had Celtics in sixth and I'll stick to it. I mean, not so bad considering Noel Horford and Marcus Smart.

I thought the Celtics were going to lose tonight even before the Horford thing. Just because of the turnaround from that last series. I think that's a really tough spot. I am a little alarmed by the Jimmy Butler piece of this. Because it only has to happen four times

where Jimmy outplays Tatum. I mean, really, it only has to happen three times. You know they're going to get the one hero game where he just makes like eight or nine threes and just goes off. And then the Gabe Vincent piece of this is also concerning to me.

Now, I don't know if he can do that on the road. We'll see if he can do that in Boston in game three and four, but he looks very comfortable at home. And basically what he gave them tonight is what they thought they were getting from Lowry when they spent $25 million a year on him. I'm a little more concerned. I still feel like the home team should win game one,

and I thought the Celtics were going to lose tonight. And I still think the Celtics have a better team. But yeah, I'm alarmed. I'm a little alarmed from that one. We'll see how they respond. Ime, I'm sure, will be yelling at everybody for the next two days and trying to put some chest hair on them. When we come back,

we're going to go backwards in time four hours as the lottery unfolded and all of our reactions right after this. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

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Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, we're taping this right now. It isex.ca slash business platinum. All right, we're taping this. Right now it is 5.07 Pacific time. Tuesday night, the NBA ladder is about to happen. We thought it would be fun if we did this in real time.

Ryan Rossell is here, Kevin O'Connor, J. Kyle Mann. This could be a really boring lottery. This could be an amazing lottery. I have no feel for it. We're going to play a little speed round to get us going.

Rusillo, favorite player in the draft? Favorite player that's not at the top? I think I'm most intrigued with Usman Jang,

the Australian 6'11 kid. Okay. I think he's too low. KOC? How about Shaden Sharp? I think of the mid-lottery guys,

Shaden Sharp, his scoring ability, even though he didn't play in Kentucky, he could easily become the best player in the Shareshaft. What do you got, Kyle? Wow. Favorite, I just said this on our Spotify live show, my favorite player is David Roddy from Colorado. I think he's just the most fun.

I just enjoy him. That's my answer. I'm done. Are you familiar with him, Bill? He played quarterback in high school, but he's 6'6", 255 pounds. He's awesome. Yeah, he's amazing.

He's so fun. I still like my Baylor guy. That's my favorite of the number three. He's cool. All right, next speed round question. KOC, how many all nba guys are in this draft how about four is that too many i was gonna say the over under is three and a half yeah i think like you know if you're bankero smith home green like those are the obviously the

three that you choose but if you're choosing one more after that, a sharp, maybe a Johnny Davis if he's able to extend his range to three, or Jang, like Ryan said. He's a lot of upside at 6'10 with his scoring ability. What do you got, Kyle? I was going to say, more than three, you get into

historic draft territory, right? 2018 had, I forget how many, but I think probably like two, you know, I don't imagine, I don't expect all three of those guys to get there. Obviously, you start talking about like who could slide up or down.

Sharp has superstar potential. Another guy that like was projected to be a superstar is Pat Baldwin. We were just talking about him as a guy who was highly rated throughout, could be undervalued.

I know it rhymes on in. We're talking to purely hypotheticals here, Rusillo. It's outside possible. I don't think it'll happen, but probably two. What do you got, Rusillo? This is always something you should go, like, what's my initial instinct? And then give it like a 50% no way that's going to happen tax.

So, yeah, you're right. If we get four, I mean, is it all NBA appearances or perennial all NBA? Just once. One time. Yeah, just once. I mean, it's still, I would always take the under on this

because, I mean, hell, if you go back the last five to six years, half of the top 10 guys, more than half, are gone within like three years. It's crazy the turnover that we've had in the top 10 for recent drafts. Yeah. I think safe to say two of the top three could get there. And then you figure one wild

card guy in the eight to 13 range, because that seems to be pretty consistent over the years. All right. Next question, Kyle. Top 10 lottery teams. Which one has built up the best lottery karma? You know, I love karma. Detroit, who I thought played with nobility down the stretch, especially. They were frisky. They were, Cade was out there.

They were just trying to beat teams. You got San Antonio, who could have rolled over, decided not to, made it to the playing game. New Orleans, another one that could have rolled over. They said, fuck it. Let's trade for CJ McCollum.

Let's go for it. Take Phoenix to six. Or OKC, not really for how they ended this year, but more just for how they flipped it around with George and Westbrook and all the assets they got and just how smart they've been. Who has the best lottery karma in your opinion out of those four? Well, you've kind of indirectly expressed that you have some kind of equation in your mind for like karma, like in terms of like how you handle tanking. Is that kind of what I'm picking up on here? Yeah.

And dumb stuff like Sacramento to me has no karma. They're just dumb every year. They've been eliminated from the discussion because they're just dumb. So I think like intelligence has to be a piece of it. Yeah, I mean, I think that you kind of have to ding teams for not drafting well too. I mean, Detroit was bad. So they kind of had the luxury

because they didn't build a team that works. Sorry, KOC. Killian hasn't quite been what we thought he would be. So I mean, yeah, they've been competitive. I would say I like New Orleans just because, like, vibe is kind of on their side right now. It seems like it'd be pretty fun

if this swung back around. And we're talking about purely just kind of wild stuff here. It'd be interesting if they got a good pick out of this and somehow entice Zion even more to come back. Russella?

If we're going karma based on the Bill formula that if you know him long enough, you know exactly what it is, that you take it more seriously, that you're not full-on tank-a-thon, you're not a shitty front office, he doesn't hate you for some historic reason.

I think the Spurs have the most karma then. They were my runner-up choice. What do you have, KFC? It is the Spurs because they could have and probably should have tanked harder but they didn't tank at all they went for the play in they got in got some experience for their good collection of young players

and they still have the 9th best draft lottery odds yeah I'm with you on that uh funniest outcome LA getting the first pick and immediately handing it to New Orleans or OKC falling backwards by two spots again and landing in the sixth spot? What's funnier to you? Okay. Honestly, I told everybody before we all got on the Zoom, I'm like,

there's a 90% chance that we're doing this because Bill wants us to be live if that Pelicans pick ends up being number one. And that's really all we're doing. Yeah. Is there a champagne bottle just off camera for you, Bill? What was the one we did together when our minds were blown? Or was that an NBA draft?

What was the one where we were on camera and we both just had our hands overhead? It was lottery, right? Well, when Luca didn't go one, too. That was a... You'll have an in-studio party for that. I think it was 2019. What do you have, KOC? What's funnier? OKC falling backwards or the Lakers getting the first

pick? I mean, it'd be that Lakers Pelicans pick moving up to number one, of course. It'd be hilarious if that happens. It'd be kind of funny if OKC went backwards two spots again. Kyle, you agree on the Lakers thing? Yeah, I mean, both are driven by Sean Freud, but it'd be kind of sadly funny if OKC falls. I hope that didn't happen for Tyler.

Kyle, would your opinion on the AD trade change if they gave the number one pick to New Orleans in this lottery? I mean, it depends on the outcome of the player. I mean, it looks a lot better. I mean, they've definitely swung this based on what our initial opinion was. I think that it's kind of had an upturn.

I don't know. What do you guys think? Rossellos and they won a title. The trade was worth it. Camp still, right? Titles above all. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

What an idiot. What an idiot. No, I think it's a good camp. I respect it. But you don't want it to be true. Not only are we on this because the Pelicans potentially getting the number one pick. I think you's a good camp. I respect it. But you don't want it to be true. Not only are we on this because the Pelicans are potentially getting the number one pick, I think you are working...

I think there's a book out there that you're working on on why retroactively we could be like, the AD acquisition was actually terrible. Because I think you want it... Look, it already has looked worse retroactively. It's just that every single fan base would have wanted AD at the time. But I do think that there's another if i can add to this that we are going to get we are going

to see some teams burned in ways we've never seen them burned before with how unprotected just hey you want seven picks for your guy here you go here's some swaps here's some unprotecteds and we'll just keep because people just were like remember how we used to argue they were kind of under, they were overvalued? And then it swung this other way that I think you're going to see some things happen where we'll look at this era in the NBA and be like, remember when teams just were like, yeah, here's

four and three swaps, unprotected. We don't care. Yeah, there's going to be a post-generation of that generation that will be scarred and scared. Because it went from those players being the best bets to what kind of bet am I actually making? Am I making a bet that a guy's going to be here for six years,

or am I making a bet that he's going to opt out after three and force his way out or be hurt? So there you go. KOC, your thoughts? No, it was a risk at the time that they did it. The right risk to take, considering they won a championship, like Russillo was saying.

And they could still spin AD forward into something else if they really, really wanted to, either this offseason or next year, for that matter. If I was Tony Reale right now, I'd have just given you like three points for that answer.

Quickly, because they're announcing just World Wide West up there. KOC, what team do you want for Chet? Just quickly. Houston. Kyle? OKC.

I think you'd be really fun there. Rossella? I'd want to see that only to see how pissed off Poco would be. Poco would go Instagram live. Immediately to Instagram.

It's not my responsibility to mentor this guy. Don't make any assumptions. We are built differently. I think Chet would love, I think his world would be entirely easier starting his career with somebody like Cade Cunningham in Detroit. Poku should do the LeBron tweet thing

and be like, I knew this guy years ago. Would be a great top three pick. Poku wouldn't do that, though. He'd do like a DeMarcus Cousins snakes in the grass. Bonus question. Since 2007, how many times have the Kings picked in the lottery? Quickly. Rosillo, since 2007. 2007?

Yeah. How many times? KOC? 11. Kyle? 10. The answer is every year except 2019 where they traded the

pick, which the Celtics ended up getting in a 2015 salary dump to Philadelphia. Remember that? It was like Stauskas, Carl Landry, Jason Thompson. And Philly was like, yeah, we'll take those guys. Hey, how about a pick swap? And Sacramento was like, sure. We're trying to sign Rajon Rondo.

Sounds great. And ended up giving two picks. So there you go. They have been 10, 12, 4, 5, 7, 5, 7, 8, 6, 8, 5, 10, 2, 14, 12, and 9. And then we'll find out today. It's the Bush administration, right? I'm pretty sure. Vivek, he's killing it.

All right. The lottery is starting. Here we go. Cleveland is our 14th pick. I would have been really mad if they got another number one pick, guys. I think that would have been enough. Yeah, but I thought we all like Cleveland now,

but you just don't like their history. No, I just... Enough with them getting the number one pick. I don't know if I'm getting this ahead of you guys or behind you guys, but OKC just got 12. The Knicks... Staying steady so far.

Yep. So Cleveland, Charlotte, OKC, the Knicks. 10 spots should be Washington. Would be fun if they moved up. Nope. Alright, we've gone chalk so far. Alright, so Spurs are up next. Karma team. Is karma

real? It is not. Alright, chalk. Alright, here we go. This is the one one this is what we all signed up for come on baby come on come on oh man i feel like if that was the lakers own pick they win the ladder feels okay, we'll be back on Thursday. Oh! Sacramento! There we go. I'm so glad. Dave. Look, it's a bonus.

I'd be really not happy about it. Oh, that's hilarious. Sacramento. I'm so glad we did that whole thing. Indiana 6. That's correct. Mm-hmm. So now this should be OKC unless I'm so glad we did that whole thing. Indiana six. That's correct. So now this should be OKC unless they moved up. We are now in the top five. Oh, wow.

Oh, Detroit. Wow. So Detroit moved back two spots. Oh, that hurts. Jesus. Two, but still the same odds. They had the best odds with Houston and Orlando. Does this mean Orlando's finally it's going to happen They've been due now

For two plus decades Well after their Insane Penny Hardaway Leap I mean I guess do you lose Your number one pick forever in that situation That's true They did hit two in a row So we have Houston, Orlando,

OKC, and Sacramento as our four? Yep, those are the four. Wow. Houston, Orlando, OKC, Sacramento. Is Sacramento back? Who does Sacramento take if they get the first pick?

Well, what'll happen if they take Chet, then no one's going to like Chet all of a sudden. They'll be like, oh, here we go. Could you do a Chet-Sabonis combo? Chet can work next to Sabonis. Oh, yeah. You think it could?

I think so. What was that face, Ryan? Like Chet in that off-ball roll. Sabonis closer to the rim. Is that what you're imagining? Because you can't bring Sabonis away from the basket. No, I think it works because check and space. He's a catching shooter. And then I think that it would

work too because Sabonis would be able to guard more solidly bodied guys. We were talking about like the Horford-Rob Williams combo is interesting because Horford positionally walls people up. Rob Williams swoops in and makes plays. Be a similar dynamic. I think that could work. Yeah, we talked

about that on our Spotify Live with that type of dynamic. I still don't work. Yeah, we talked about that on our Spotify live with that type of dynamic. I still don't like it as much as some of the other fits though because with the Horford Williams, at least you can switch screens and feel comfortable with with Horford on the perimeter. So bonus, maybe if you have Holmgren behind him, you can feel more comfortable with that.

But it didn't work with Turner either though. So most fun would be Sacramento gets Palo, OKC gets Holmgren, Orlando gets Jabari, and then Houston gets... I don't know.

Imagine putting Jaden with what they already have in Houston. That would be tough. That might be the time when I know now guys have Keegan moving up to four. I love KOC having Sharp at five because I'm telling you right now, teams that you trust are always like,

hey, don't forget Sharp in that mix of the top guys because of the size, because of the shooting. And the shooting part for him is real. I mean, it's so real that i almost would argue he he likes doing it too much but that's uh by the way there was no face for the record kyle i think that whatever chet is first of all it's a ceiling league okay so that's why chet still has a chance to go number one because his ceiling is the highest but i i would argue no matter where he lands what he'll be asked to do will be a lesser role and find a way to fit in role in the beginning of his

NBA career, certainly than Jabari, maybe, certainly Powell, though. Powell, depending on the team here, he could be the initiator of an offense immediately. Wait, hold on. Hold that thought. We're going to take a break, and when we come back, we will

know the identity of the top four teams, and then we're just going to go to break. And when we come back, we will know the identity of the top four teams. And then we're just going to go to town. I can't wait. All right, we're back. The lottery is back from commercial. We are back from our commercial. KOC, any last chat thoughts before we hear the top four? I just hope for him, he lands in a situation

where like Kyle was saying, he can be in that off-ball roaming role where there's not the pressure of him to have to defend interior guys. That's what I want for him. I want Jabari to go to a team with a point guard would be my dream out of the top three. Get him going.

Get somebody who can set him up and work with him and make him better. Or Detroit. OKC with Giddy, SGA. One of those two. Jabari's going to go. If he goes toiddy, SGA. One of those two. All right, here we go. Jabari's going to go. If he goes to Houston, it's going to be pro Auburn. Kings four.

OK. All right. Third pick. Disappointing that Kings got four. Rockets three. They're going to get a good run. Yeah, they get all the pressure off of not knowing. They did it.

They were two. They did it. Orlando did it. They did it. Oh, my God. Congrats, Kevin Clark. Oh, wow. Okay.

So, OKC is two. Orlando is our number one pick. KOC, what do they do? I think for them, their front office, their history, you're thinking lengthier, right? Is it Chad Holmgren? Is that where they're going here or are they trying to

add some more wing versatility next to Franz Wagner with Jabari Smith? Is that the move? One of those two guys makes sense. Wait a second. Franz Wagner, Chet Holmgren. Could we have a frontline whitewash of the Orlando?

Don't they? Oh, and they could play the other Wagner. Jesus. It'd be like 1958 of the NBA. How does that happen? The Mavs are so jealous right now. If we all think Jabari is going to be really good, wouldn't Jabari make the most sense in that Orlando spot? Considering they have guards, they have

some size. Wendell Carter was good last year. They have Wagner. Wouldn't Kyle, a shooter, be the perfect fifth piece for that nucleus if you like sugs they need they need to stir their drink with like playmaking like off the dribble creation and shooting and this has been the story with them for like i don't know 10 years it's been this way for a long time for orlando i think the chet thing makes sense it could work i could see him doing it i could because he has such a upside. It could free them up to maybe move personnel that they don't want to keep.

But also, KLC and I were talking about this. Like, the forward combos are really interesting because this past season we saw glimpses that, like, Franz could be, like,

an initiator. Like, he's showing signs that he can be, like, a scorer off the bounce and a playmaker off the bounce. I think, like, a Paolo-Franz combination is really cool. Or a Paolo-Fronz combination is really cool, or a Paolo-Jabari, or Franz-Jabari.

Either one of those works. I think that they have a really safe bed of making a move that's going to work here. I think all three of these players could work. Russillo, what do you think? The guard situation with the roster is sort of weird, right? Because Cole probably thinks he's the best of the guards, and their hope would be that Suggs is going to end up being the

best and worth the pick. And Fultz is still in the mix, and I thought when he came back, he actually kind of showed some glimpses that he's never going to be the guy that maybe we thought. And hell, I even have moments where I like R.J. Hampton and how hard he works as a guard on the bench. I like him too. I'm with you. Yeah, there's just something about him, how he just busts his ass when he's out there.

He's like 21 years old. Yeah, so Paolo, I think his greatest strength, and Kyle, you were him how he just busts his ass out there but he's like 21 years old yeah so you know paulo i think his greatest strength and kyle you were on this and i i want to give you credit for it because i'll admit like when you watch chet and it's right you go what this guy could possibly be how do you make it complicated but if he has this one major flag that you just go how does his body hold up and i don't have to ask that question about Jabari or Paolo, especially if you're a GM who feels like, you know, I really got to get this one right. That one can factor into the decision because there's nights where I watch Jabari going, why would I not want this guy?

He can shoot it. His number should be even better if his guards played with him better, but they would forget about him for long stretches or hand him shot clock grenades. And then Paolo in the beginning of the season i remember you and i bill texting like the first game that we watched we were like what what's their debate look at his body look at how he goes into transition and pulls up like fucking what are we doing and that's how special the top of this class is and back to kyle's point was you felt like there was always going to be this paulo correction because i think the most enticing thing about him and what this league is and why Cade Cunningham won the argument a year ago is if you have a guy at Paolo's size who can initiate

high pick and roll basketball, that's why I'm so excited about the top of this draft and why I could see a team going even with our guard situation. Maybe we just made us that much more difficult to guard if we're doing stuff with Franz and Paolo with that size and a front line that we kind of like, although I'm still scared to death of anybody paying Mo Bamba for the record. KOC, could you play Franz and Paolo together and in like round three of the playoffs? Sure, I think you could. You need Bankaro to make some strides defensively. I don't like the Bancaro fit for Orlando as much as I do either Chet or Jabari, though, for the reasons that we're talking about.

But with Bancaro, like Ryan's saying, you do need to factor in the shot creation that he could potentially provide in that frontcourt. And I also think it's important to remember that even though they have a Wendell Carter, even though a Mo Bamba is a restricted free agent, none of those guys might be part of the long-term future. You're going to take the player that you view as the best player available and then make everything else work around that guy. I did, to get ready for this, I wrote down everybody's keepers, expirings, and needs. And keepers, I mean like guys that you just know are going to be on the team.

And for Orlando, I only had Franz, Suggs, Cole, and Wendell Carter. Only those four, right? So if you're just taking those four, who are I adding? Isaac is still, you know, there. Yeah, and I can't call him the keeper anymore. I'm not telling you you got it wrong.

No, I just can't. But if you just take those four and you put Jabari on there, that looks like a five. Franz, Suggs, Cole, Carter, and then Jabari. Now, guys, this is a miracle. There's a million sports podcasts. There's probably a million people

behind the scenes on those podcasts. This might be the only one that has a diehard Orlando Magic fan on the Zoom ready to pop in. Steve Cerruti, one of eight people probably ever who, I don't know, you saw 80%

of the Orlando Magic games the last couple years? I thought you were going to say Roots for the Orlando Magic. That hasn't given up on the Orlando Magic? He's so floored I thought you were going to say Roots for the Orlando Magic. That hasn't given up on the Orlando Magic. He's so floored right now. He's not even popping on the Zoom. I think we might have to resuscitate him. Oh, there he is.

Let's go. Cerruti, what do you want your team to do? I can't believe you got... I think you're overthinking this. The Magic... Chet was created in a lab to play for the Orlando Magic. He is this weird, freakish white guy who,

like, they love length. They love the possibility of what players can be. They've taken the lankiest, most weirdly athletic guy year over year over year. It was Isaac. It was Bamba. They've just stocked up at that position. I think I kind of feel like everything is aligned.

What about, I would trade Bomba or see what you can get for Bomba. I think Wendell Carter Jr. and Chet are a perfect fit next to each other. Wendell's a good center. Wow, look how excited he is. He's great. No, but he could step out. He's not going to get in the way of Chet. And I still think, I think Franz can play the three

and I think they could just go super big and be really intimidating and they've got two smaller guards. And Bill, I think you forgot about Markel Fultz I know people like to make fun of him but like this team is different when he's their point guard I kind of feel like the Fultz Suggs Franz Chet Wendell Carter Jr five is pretty freaking awesome

one of the comps for Wendell Carter prior to the draft the popular ones was Al Horford so that relates to the conversation we've been having about the best fit for Chet as well. I don't know if it applies as much nowadays with the way Carter's developed,

but, you know, we'll see how things change with that Orlando team. Just something that came to mind as you were talking, Cerruti. Rosillo, Cerruti just made a key, important, and crucial point. The concept of franchise

stereotype draft picks where certain teams just gravitate towards certain types of guys. And in this case, Cerruti's right. Chet is like created out of a lab of all these different draft mistakes Orlando has made really for the last 25 years. I'm in.

I think we have to play it out. Chet and Orlando, I'm in. Sign me up. What do you think? Well, I would argue a lot of times they drafted where they drafted because it always seemed like the draft stopped right before their pick. Like whatever that first tier was, then it was the Magic's pick. So I don't know if they were –

when they got Mo Bamba, they couldn't believe that he was still there. That draft in 17 with Isaac, when I would look at that top of that draft, and I'd go, wait a minute, you've got Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Josh Jackson, Fox, and I'd go, wait, Isaac is going to be somebody who goes sixth or seventh in an NBA draft with his skill set? Granted, he can't stay healthy, but you remember what you were thinking about when this all happened. Even Hazonia, which kind of sucks.

Aaron Gordon, it felt like it stopped. 2013, Oladipo, that was a weird draft because you just didn't really know who you were excited about at the top, and maybe Oladipo was the one. So maybe you guys are right. Cerruti would know it better than me, but I did feel like Orlando had an impossible run of the draft stopping right before their pick.

And that was changed. They took Bombo over Carter and Sexton. And then SGA goes 11th. I can't totally kill them on that. Yeah, you're right. There's sometimes this always seems to happen to me in fantasy football auctions and stuff where I'm always like a dollar short or and I just look back and go oh my god if I and I think Orlando has been that team yeah think about the draft that you just mentioned I mean think about 18 it's DeAndre it's Marvin Bagley it's Luca it's Jaron Jackson's

Trey and then you're like our Orlando's up now and I'm telling, I think at the time they felt really good about Mo being there. I did not like the Mo Bamba pick, as KOC can attest, because we argued about that for a while. Who knows? He's still only like 23 years old, so who knows? Wait, I have another

sorority question. Does the Orlando Magic fan base, is this like a rally with Chet? Who's the coolest guy they could draft? Who could be face of the franchise? Paolo is more like face of the franchise put on the front of the program, right? He is,

but I feel like he's the weirdest fit. I don't know. I kind of feel like he and Franz occupy some similar things. Whereas I think Chet you could be a little bit more creative with. I want the ball in Franz's hands more than it was in his rookie season. I think he has some upside. I do.

I said this months ago. I don't think he has a weakness. I think he needs to get better at certain things, but I think his upside is absurd. Cerruti's handle is no flaw Franz. It's true. It's true. Let's get on board. Would you trade one to OKC for two and 12 if it meant not getting Chet?

Oh, that's a great question. I'd want more. That's a great question. But that would assume that people like the Ringer NBA draft guide would all decide in about a month that Chet is the consensus number one. I almost feel like if you're two, you can't lose because you're getting somebody good anyway. That's what I said. I would be cool with all the bad luck

that the Magic have had. I was like, I'll just take the second pick. Whoever you want to take one, and then we'll just whoever falls, we can take him. But to answer your question, Bill, the fan base is definitely split. I think there are guys that want Jabari who think he's just like a bucket shooter. He's going to be maybe not like an a bucket shooter. Like he's going to be

maybe not like an elite level player, but he's going to be a really, really, really good player for a while. And Chet is like they've been burned

before by like these project guys. So I don't know if the whole fan base is necessarily all in on Chet. I am like, I think I would have

liked to have taken him at two. I think it's a little bit easier, but if they have the first pick and he's your guy, like I'd go with Chet.

Kyle, would you trade 2-12 in one of the other picks they have for one? If you're OKC, if you love Chet, we all agree Chet's the perfect OKC guy. Now, on the other hand, Presti, master of the zag, hard to read that guy. He might have already decided, I love Paolo, Paolo's the guy I want. But if they wanted Chet, is that worth it to give up some of the excess picks for him? I kind of think that OKC is in a similar situation here where they, what they really, really need is it's interesting because we have three big guys at the top of this draft that all three have ball skills that kind of covered and address different areas. That's what OKC needs.

Like KFC and I were talking about like young teams that are like close, close to being interesting, maybe not good, but interesting. And I feel like any of the three of those guys would work. I wouldn't risk it. I'd go ahead and just take that there's a good player there. I feel like Jabari or Paolo would work for them. I think Jabari would be pretty interesting because of how much downhill creation is already on the team.

Jabari is going to average 15 to 20 points next year. I'm just calling. I mean, it seems like the lock of the century. He's going to score. He doesn't, even with his other developmental flaws. Can I give you an unless for that? It's going to happen. Can I give you an unless?

Unless he gets drafted by the Rockets at number three. Because that is going to be whoever gets the ball over midcourt gets to shoot team. And I'm not excited for Jabari's 15 points a game on that team. Who's the point guard? Well, Jalen's going to have the ball because in your sophomore year, when you're that big of a pick. Yeah, he's probably 25 a game next year, right?

Yeah, I mean, that's what teams do. When you're that high of a pick, their sophomore year, they're like, all right, let's go. The keys are yours. But then you also have Kevin Porter, who's going to be like, you know, I'm not here to watch. And Wood on an expiring.

Going like, hey, I need mine. You're right. Going into timeouts pissed off down 20 because the play wasn't run for him. That's a tough spot for Jabari. It is. I disagree completely. Go ahead.

Make the case. KFC's zagging. I think with Jabari Smith, if you're putting him with Jalen Green, you're going to have two complementary guys down the line. Who cares about their rookie year as much as year three, four, five? If you have Jalen Green in that backcourt

with his hyper-athleticism paired with a versatile, switchable defender and Jabari Smith who can drain threes and you hope develops his handle, those guys fill different spaces on the court, fill different roles with their types of skills. I mean, I love the fit there for Houston more so than Ben Carrow, where there's the questions about his ability to space the floor.

There's questions about defense and culture. Jabari Smith Jr. is the culture. He brings that intensity. That's why, for Houston, I like him because he brings it there to that team. That guy has constant hustle, constant intensity. That's what Houston needs. Yeah, and I think that Shingun

would be a good pairing for him too for high post kind of handoff offense. You kind of take some pressure off him having to create. Was that a scoff at Shingun talk? No, I said my guy. You got me excited. Shingun talk? No, I said my guy. That was, you got me excited. Shingun, you jostled me.

Well, we know Jalen Green's not your guy. Just not more than Herb Jones. Yeah, I just love Herb Jones. I'm sorry. I just have Jalen Green behind Herb Jones. That was the joke.

I'm sorry. Yeah, pretty simple. Wait, before we go, because I want to talk about those other teams. Cerruti, any last words to Magic Nation? Yeah. Which is basically you, Kevin Clark, Pat Williams' grandson,

and three other people? Yeah, like some of the, what was it, Tiger Woods and Bubba Watson sitting on the sidelines. Right. And a bunch of Cougars. No, parting words would be this is we talked about in the regular season

that team plays hard they're kind of fun to watch you add another one of these pieces if it's Chad if it's Tabari look out man they're gonna be fun don't you have a ton of cap space too?

not I don't know about this summer but it opens up I mean they just can't pay Bomba if they pay Bomba I'm'm going to be bummed. I really am.

Are you sure? Why'd you scoff, Priscilla? Are they over the cap and I'm missing it? I was looking up cap space the other day for 2023, and I don't remember reading about Orlando having significant cap space. Because I was wondering if that could be a James Harden situation. Yeah, they do have cap space. Oh, they have 29? Wait, is there

some weird stipulation with that? I have them at 84 million next year. That's enough money for James Harden, Cerruti. You guys are back. I mean, you want to drop a nuclear bomb on team building? God, they have the most. How did I miss that? Yeah, I don't know.

It was Detroit, the Pacers, the Spurs, Portland. KOC, who says no? I left them out. Who says no? Cole Anthony for James Harden. Cole Anthony says no. And a giant trade exception for Philly. Cole Anthony's like, I'm better.

Daryl Morey says no for sure. He's doing what it takes to keep James Harden. Is that inside info? No, I'd just be surprised if Daryl Morey didn't want to keep his guy. He went out of his way passing on so many potential deals

over five months. I don't think he's going to give up on James. Even if they bring Harden back on his player option on a prove-it year, Morey's going to roll with that and see what happens. Before we take a break and say goodbye to Cerruti, can we all agree that James Harden signing with Orlando

would be the funniest outcome of the summer? They take Shed Holmgren and then sign James Harden. There were a few years where I was pretty worried they were going to try to do a home run swing and try to get Russell Westbrook

in there. So I feel like we're over those. No, no, no. This was before when they had nothing going on. It was like, hey, let's just bring some guy in to sell some seats.

They're beyond that now. They're too smart for that. It just wouldn't make sense. Chet's screening for James Harden would be must-see TV. I'd watch that. Current James Harden. Chet just confused

why James isn't running back on defense ever. Wait, what's going on in the NBA? Suggs would probably fight him. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Alright, we're going to take one more break and then we're going to talk about OKC Houston and Sacramento. Okay, so just quickly, speed round. Who do you think Orlando should take, Rossello?

Right now. Ah, man. It's really hard because all these guys, and I have changed my mind throughout the entire thing, but I think I'm going to say Moncaro. Okay, what do you got, KFC? You have Chet? Chet.

Kyle, you have Chet? Yeah, I think anybody that gets number one should take Chet that's my opinion Cerruti sold me on Chet I'm gonna mark Chet down for that okay OKC at number two I have for keepers for them SGA

Giddy and Dort I mean the irony of this is this was they just needed to get in the top three and get one of these guys one of somebody with size is perfect I

think any of them they would have liked Jabari let's say Paolo one of those two let's say Chet goes first Jabari or Paolo I think we could all agree if

Chet's there too OKC would probably take him there but KOC Paolo or Jabari for OKC how Presti him there. But KFC, Palo or Jabari? For OKC, how Presti thinks and the team they have already. In a vacuum, I like Bankaro more as a prospect. For OKC specifically, I like Jabari Smith more

because of the shooting, defensive versatility, the fit next to Giddy and SGA. That's a pretty exciting trio, young trio to build with. I agree. I agree. I agree with that. What do you say, Kyle? I think they've waited so long

and built on this for so long and not knowing what the future is going to be like with Shea. I think you don't necessarily worry about Fit, even though it'll be fun with Jabari. I think you take Paolo. He's more likely to be a franchise player. You're more likely to have the option to pivot

if they want to and build around him. I think Paolo's a better pick there for me, in my opinion. The weird thing about this OKC thing feeling like we're waiting forever, we haven't even really started waiting. It's a really weird dynamic and if Presti didn't have all

the deserved equity, by the way, of what he's done in the past, then people would just look at this entirely differently. I'm not even sure SGA, if they couldn't figure out a way to flip him for something else, that they wouldn't do it because I've heard it. I don't know if it's true.

I've just heard it time to time. I remember we talked about that. What was that, a year and a half ago? We talked about him in the next. And Cade, too. Last year, there was a talk about trying to get Cade. Yeah, so you guys have all brought up really good points because the Giddy dynamic, if Shea is there, you're like, okay, do I want another ball initiating player?

I'm of the belief, like, I want as many guys that can initiate their own offense as they can now. Like, that's what I love. I love team. But that also can be the worst way to build your team, especially when it's younger, because guys are like, I'm not sure how to take turns. And taking the ball out of Giddy's hands and then Shea on the drive. So it would have to be me trusting that even with this group, Paolo can kind of figure out how to fit in when he needs to, but Jabari would be the easier one early on. So I'll say Jabari. I think Jabari wins the lottery if OKC takes him.

I think that's the single best fit of any guy with any of these three teams, where you get to play with... He has Giddy in his life for the next 10 years. Just that alone, not to mention the SGA piece. I think it's a good point about could they upgrade with SGA. But ultimately, that's the kind of team I want to see him go to like good guards. I think he's super competitive. I think those other guys that have, I think Gideon, SGA and Dort, like those are three guys who could be in a playoff series, and I think Jabari from what I've seen of him and from what the word on the street is with him, like just really competitive work ethic, you know, really gives a shit. So that would be a nice fit. But he, I mean, we should talk about Presti for one second. He will zag, right? Like he, when he took Westbrook,

he took him fourth. People were surprised by that. Harden that year, like he, he put some real thought into why Harden was the right pick, even from his personality. You have to be the third guy with these other two guys I have. What's your personality? Just over the years, I do feel like he thinks a little outside the box. So that's why I'm not prepared to... He might just look at it and be like, wow, Paolo's available.

I think that guy's going to be a superstar. And that might check his box. I think it's so hard to predict and they'll keep it really close to the vest too. Nobody ever knows what they're doing. Nobody, you know, pretty secretive. Is OKC the team most likely

to not take Smith, Bancaro, or Holmgren of the top three teams? Oh, you mean like the random Scotty Barnes going over sucks moment, but we have him in the top three? Like Sharper Ivy, that type of thing. I don't believe enough in either one of those guys. I just don't see it.

I feel like Jabari, you were talking about his fit. Can you imagine running pick and roll on one side and Giddy throwing those cross-court skip passes to Jabari? A, shooting it off the catch. B, one dribble. He'll just make a living, man. I mean, it would be paradise for him. I really like that guy, and I want him to go to the right team.

Houston, who do you think they're hoping is there? Because I don't think Chet, whether he goes one or two, I don't think he'd last to three. So who do you think they want out of Jabari and Paolo based on the team they have? Or are they just best player available? What do you think, Priscilla? I mean, it kind of covers some of the same stuff

we've already talked about, but I thought Kevin brought up really good points about Jabari coming in and kind of changing that stuff around. But, you know, if you want to dig into it, the guys that are pro Paolo, that means they have to argue against Jabari a little bit, would say personality-wise, like Paolo's not going to take shit.

Jabari might because he kind of did at Auburn where these guards were just atrocious for him. But when it's right and you see him pull up, it's this jumper that you can't believe a kid his age has in his bag. It's this pull-up jumper that's perfection of this chiseled body with more spacing in the league and him being set up in better situations because he just will be because he'll be so much better than what he went through in college. I don't know if Jalen and Kevin Porter Jr. at this point, that'd be something that they'd be focused on there,

but of the two you know it's it might yeah i don't know it might i just go back and forth on those guys man it's fucking hard you're gonna go into your cave and you're gonna dive into this draft and change your opinion on this one two three i feel like for the next six weeks i already i don't feel like you're set no i already have been is my point i'm already i've already done all my reports on like the top i don't know 30 and i i have a really hard time with these guys at the top i agree with ryan i think i think with this year's draft like i've had banquero number one for about a month now if if if there's word that he's

going to be going to a team where the fit's not great, maybe I bump him down from one. The big board order is going to depend on where we're going to hear these guys are likely to go. That's going to be a factor in how their ranks. Kyle, what if Sacramento calls Houston and says, we'll give you

four and Mitchell for three? I don't want Mitchell, so I'm not doing that deal. Okay. Not a Mitchell guy. You're still not a Mitchell guy? I thought he had some moments last year. He's fine. I just think he's just the conditions are too.

I kind of judge everything by the playoffs, man. I don't know. I have a hard time believing in that. I've kind of stood pat with that. I'm trying to figure out a scenario where the top three isn't set, or somebody like the Houston team could be like, eh, we'll move back two spots. I just can't fathom it. Davian Mitchell isn't getting you from four into the guaranteed. And again, guaranteed. Chances are one of the three guys is going to be a huge disappointment at the top. I can love them all. I can have a hard time with it, but history tells us, and I can't get past the part

of LeChet that there's something I'm really concerned about with him just physically holding up in comparison to these other behemoth wings that can do a lot of stuff on the court. Jabari breaks the tie for you if you like shooting and defense, and Paolo

breaks the tie for you if you like somebody who can initiate your offense because what he did at Duke, when Duke was in trouble in the tournament, Paolo got them out of trouble every time. And you were like, why can't they figure this out? And then it was the other, I forget what it was. It was at the Arkansas game where you were like, why are you guys going away from them? They started fronting Paolo and they couldn't figure out a way to get them free off the ball to let them set it up. And then the backup guard, Roach, saved their ass with these impossible shots. But there was a stretch at the close of that game, big minutes, where Paolo was fixing everything just by doing simple high ball screen,

drive or kick stuff. So that's why I do like both guys because despite the size, other than that, they're very different basketball players. And I'm imagining front offices are completely split about this stuff too. It's a really fun draft. I'll tell you what this does show me though, after the Sacramento thing,

like if it's Ivy or whatever, like to me, Keegan Murray screams Detroit now. Or maybe, obviously I think KOC's on it. We can't be dismissing Sharp because he didn't play this year. But when you're thinking out fate of like fits with Cade tough one

for Sacramento though, because I think the last thing they need is to take yet another guard in the lottery. I think it's how many years in a row have they done that? And now they kind of made their decision when they traded Hal Burton for Sabonis that they're going to roll with Fox and Mitchell. They got Barnes that is an expiring.

Do you reach for Griffin there? Maybe. I mean, Griffin, unbelievable shooting year at Duke. I, I'd have written down. He was like over 40% in like all three of his play types from three could

turn into a great defender. That's an interesting one that could work for them. I loved AJ and wanted to put him fifth and the injury history twice in high school. And again, this year it's too much for me. What do you think, Cass put him fifth and the injury history twice in high school and again this year. It's too much for me. What do you think, Cassie? I agree with that with Griffin. I mean, I'd feel more comfortable with him in that 7 to

11 range, something like that for him. I don't know. For Sacramento, you're right. It's a tough spot to be because Ivy, then you have Fox. You drafted Mitchell last year. Maybe you're moving fox that makes you feel more comfortable doing that sharp a project bringing him into sacramento i don't know i mean i i asked earlier like which team would be you know is okc the most likely team to not take

one of the consensus top three but i wonder like if one of those teams could want to trade down it's a sacramento or detroit are they trying to put all their chips in to move up for one of these guys? Because I like the fit for a Sharper and Ivy for some of those top three teams as well if they did decide to move down. For the Kings, I'd want to be trying to move up. Yeah, I just don't know what their assets are other than future picks.

Mitchell. For keepers, I only... Mike Brown? It's a bonus Fox and Mitchell. That's it for keepers. Mike i had sabonis fox and mitchell that's it for keepers mike brown stock low right now uh who did you so who'd you have for the pistons that you were excited about them at five murray sharp if sharp shooting is what it looks like and i watched i've only watched the ebyl stuff and I went through all of it. And this dude, for his size, can shoot.

It appears he may despise passing. KOC could speak to that, probably, because we were texting about it a little bit. And he has some stretches where I'm like, holy shit. And it's like he just wants to dribble and get into this three-point shot, he makes it so much um and teams have told me don't don't rule him out like when i ask about tiers and they'll say first tier into the second tier i've had a lot of teams start their second tier with shaded shark yeah he he came out of nowhere like he went from unranked to top of high school rank yeah what was that like just The number one overall? Yeah, late bloomer.

And then he doesn't play college basketball. There's a bit of mystery there. Kyle, can you express your concerns without getting the podcast pulled out? You hear things. I don't want to speculate. They're kids. And I don't know for sure if that's true.

There have been things said about, and Ryan made the joke about, very likely scenario. When a guy leaves a program, you start to hear things that are unsavory. The thing about Sharp is he is like, he's a workout game to my eyes. I watch him play.

He looks like a guy who just has like crazy, gets his own shot, can get to his own shot, probably sees the game and like, he's pretty far away from being like a playmaker. I think you kind of just need in a situation where you let him loose and be like an offensive just flamethrower. But in terms of like feeling the game and seeing the game, I think he's a long way away. I've heard Sharp is quiet, but a worker.

He's like in the gym all the time, that type of guy. He's just quiet, keeps to himself. Sounds like Dylan Berkey. Possibility. In the gym, Dylan. Also rubs people the wrong way, Dylan Berkey. No, I'm just kidding. It's a total head case.

Totally kidding. From everything we've laid out with Sharp here, that there's some red flags. He left the program. He might be a little me first with the way he plays. He kind of never went to the program. We can understand how weird this was. And then Cal at the end of the year being like, no, he'll be back.

And they're like, what is going on? Because he's not coming back. He shouldn't have played. I don't blame him for not playing. That part of it, I don't fault at all. Question marks abound. Just to me, scream Sacramento Kings at number four.

This is so enticing to them, right? Okay, but here's something. Bill and I, we've been doing this long enough that you used to say something that I think was very important.

You would look at high schools. You'd be like, you know what I don't like? Five high schools. I don't like five high schools. I've never liked the five high was very important. You would look at high schools. You'd be like, you know what I don't like? Five high schools. Right. I've never liked the five high school guys ever. That's changed, though. Yeah, it's so out of control.

When you're doing the backgrounds on every one of the guys, you're like, oh, okay, played there, transferred here, and then showed up with these guys. It's kind of like late 90s tattoos in the NBA, where guys used to write articles being like, I don't know about this guy, Max deal. He's got a couple of Eagles on his shoulder, you know, and then you just get desensitized and you go, it was absurd to ever carry about, I care about that. So I think the sharp stuff. So you think that's like very 1990s, the five high school thing.

I know. I do think that there was a time when it was something you were like, wait, what's going on? Like how many times the guys at five high schools, like Beasley was a five high school guy. And I think we'd all say that he was a massive disappointment. And I think there was a time where it could have been flat. I'm just saying for today's world, I don't even think about it anymore. I just try to keep track of like where and how it was the numbers. And then like, oh, his uncle was a coach at this place. And then he went there. To me, it's not think about it anymore. I just try to keep track of like where and how it was the numbers. And then like, Oh, his uncle was a coach at this place.

And then he went there to me. It's not even a thing anymore. Um, I'm looking at the ESPN 100 for 2021. Holmgren was one. Jaden Hardy was two. Imani Bates, three.

Palos, four. Patrick Baldwin, Jr. Was fifth. Yeah. Barry Smith. So Patrick Baldwin Jr. was fifth. Jabari Smith's sixth. So Patrick Baldwin, he's going to be the wild card. He might end up being the

Zaire Williams of this draft where he goes 10 spots higher than anybody expects and then all of a sudden it just turns out he had a bad year. I have a Sacramento. I just made up a trade in the spot. I feel like that's what the people want, right? They expect from this podcast at this point that I'm going to make up a dumb trade.

Sacramento's four, the Knicks are 11. Could that be our De'Aaron Fox something? And then the Knicks, maybe Sacramento's picking four and 11 to get something back. Then they can take Ivy at four and be like, this is our guy. Now we don't have to worry about Fox-Ivy.

But something with the Knicks basically doing the 11 for Fox, and that would be kind of the two components. Does that excite you at all, KOC? I mean, I'm not the biggest Fox guy, so yes. It depends on what else is in that deal. But I mean, Fox, after the Hallibururton deal averaged like 29 points per game on excellent efficiency. He played some of the best basketball that he did of his entire career.

So a big part of me would like to see Fox back there just to see if he can maintain that with Sabonis and whatever other pieces they add this offseason. I think I agree with you. I liked how he played after they cleared up that guard situation. I liked how he played with Sabonis. So I think I would probably want to soft season. I think I agree with you. I liked how he played after they cleared up that guard situation. I liked how he played with Sabonis. I think I would probably want to see it. But at the same time, then you can't take Ivey. I just don't see

how you do that. I don't see... Now, if they're going to get at Sacramento, they have a track record of being like, ah, fuck it. Maybe it's sharp. Or it's a move up instead of down. Pacers 6, Portland 7. I guess's sharp or it's a move up instead of down. Pacers 6, Portland 7. I guess we don't have to talk about them.

All right, we're good. Any, Rossell, any last subplots for you before we go? I can't help but think, and even though this is a pretty, but I think there are going to be like guys taken through that second tier and then two years later, we're going to be like the right guys went 11, 12 and 15 and the wrong guys went.

And I know you could apply that to a lot of years. But this year, it screams it with some of the guys being projected the way they are. But I'm not telling you like, all right, just invert these five for these five. Because we all kind of know how this works. But it feels like within a very short amount of time, you're going to be looking at this class going, holy shit. Like Jang, right, Ryan? You mentioned him right up top. This always happens.

I know it always happens. You're right. But this one feels like I can't believe Jang isn't talked about more. And he had two different seasons, so the overall numbers aren't great. He got hurt. He sat out. He came back. He's their best pick aren't great. He got hurt. He sat out. He came back. He's their best pick and roll guy.

He's actually young. That's another thing with this class. You've got all these guys coming in and we're thinking they're so young. Some of these ages are way like this. This class is older for who they should be. There's a lot of guys. I'm like, why is this guy 22?

Like he was in college for a year. What the fuck's going on? So yeah, and I think Dyson is the best player out of all the G League guys I don't even think it's debatable I think he checks almost every single box I think he's a terrific basketball player but I see him behind a handful of other guys

that are more well known yeah you know on that point so right now the latter is 9 San Antonio I wish they ate 8 New Orleans. Who's going to get a good player out of this? 9 San Antonio, 10 Washington, 11 Knicks, 12 OKC,

13 Charlotte. It's a little like that year. What did Donovan Mitchell end up? Went 13. And there was like a couple misses before him, but he went 13. And I think Bam went... Did Bam go in that same draft too? Bam was... He was 14. One pick after Mitchell. Right. And I think Bam went, did Bam go in that same draft too? Bam was, he was 14,

one pick after Mitchell. Right. So, and then you look back and you're like, wow, Mitchell went 13 and Bam went 14. I do think just looking at KFC's draft, you look at the guys from that nine to 13 range

and one, two of those guys could end up being that. I haven't done all my homework yet. Matherin, Davis, just some guys like that. Mark Williams, we talked about him earlier, Kyle. There's a number of those guys could end up being that i haven't done all my homework mathren davis just some guys like that mark williams we talked about him earlier kyle there's a number of those guys who could pop a couple justin paytons on our hand i think yeah i think that when you get a pick in that like six through ten range the branding of top 10 pick just clouds people's minds we're like we got a top 10 pick here we gotta we we are oblig obligated to go by this guy could be a star.

The guys in that 10 to 15 range, they're good. They'll be there, but they think they have to take a swing, and thus they miss on something that's going to be good. I was telling KOC that Mark Williams I think is going to be able to play pretty early. I'm pretty sure about that. It just happens every single year.

You're right. It does happen. I keep seeing the same group there, and I think Mark Williams is a perfect example. It just happens every single year. You're right. It does happen. I keep seeing the same group there, and I think Mark Williams is a perfect example. If he can come in immediately and be this protect the rim, roll guy, show on some perimeter stuff and not get destroyed, you're like, wait, did I just find a closing center in a game where the other team goes small?

Is that what you're talking about here? I think he'll be shooting three someday, too. That's my long-term prediction. Where does this draft drop for you, KFC? Is it Hardy at 15? I'm looking at your big board. Easton, 16? Or do you think it goes all the way through the teens

before it drops out? Is Mark Williams the last guy you feel great about? Yeah, I mean, if you're putting these guys into groups, maybe it's like three, first top three, then it's maybe four to eight, and then a nine to 13 where I have Jang. Because I'm with you, Ryan. He's a guy I could easily move up.

And then after that, I think 14, 15 is around where it does drop off again. But then it's a big group where it's whatever your taste is, whatever type of player you're looking at. Because it's fun because Cleveland's 14, Charlotte's 13, and they might actually get guys that could be in round one of the playoffs next year

and actually be playing. We're going to take a break to watch this Celtics heat game. I can't believe I made it this long. Rosillo, great to see you. You have a podcast coming this week. KOC, Kyle. KOC, when's the next mismatch? Thursday.

Okay. And then, Kyle, you're doing something, ringer NBA show at some point soon? Probably. I wrote a big Chet Holmgren thing today. I saw that.

The new unicorn. You officially gave him the unicorn label. We'll see. The whole point of it is, is he a unicorn? We'll see. We'll see. Oh, he's definitely is, is he a unicorn? We'll see. We'll see.

Oh, he's definitely from a body-wise standpoint. For sure. Congratulations to Cerruti. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton, as always. Thanks to Dylan Berkey as well. And we'll see you next time. I want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside, on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.