The Bill Simmons Podcast - CC Sabathia on Protesting, Drew Brees, Baseball’s Return, LeBron, Rivera, and the National Moment

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by World Series champion CC Sabathia to discuss his experience at the protests in Brooklyn, the moment he realized the nation was ignited by the killing of George Floyd, and the platforms today's athletes have and their ability to speak out against injustice. They also discuss CC's time with the New York Yankees and Cleveland Indians, including the 2007 ALCS, watching LeBron James play high school sports in Cleveland, the incomparable Mariano Rivera, the 2009 World Series, bench-clearing brawls, how athletes may be affected by moving the start date of their season, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the BS Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Look, the pandemic totally changed the way we worked here the last three months. We were able to do podcasts remotely in a way that we never expected. We didn't have a choice, but you just, you never know when things are going to change. Well, I think a lot of things might change as our world opens up again. One thing won't change. Our presenting sponsor, ZipRecruiter's mission, they'll continue doing what they've always done,

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We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com and The Ringer Podcast Network, where I'm really proud of a lot of the stuff we've done this week. We had great pieces from Tyler Tynes and Justin Charity and Brian Phillips. We had a podcast, the Higher Learning Podcast, with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay, which we launched last week, which is excellent. I highly encourage you to subscribe. We had Justin Charity on the Press Box podcast.

We had Jamal Crawford on the JJ Reddick podcast. We had Larry Wilmore weighing in on his podcast, and he's going to be on this podcast at some point soon. But, and a lot, a lot more stuff beyond that. But Rachel Lindsay was on the bachelor bachelor party podcast to talking about the bachelor and all the crazy stuff that they've done on that show with who they've selected and things like that. But this is definitely a moment right now. And I, you know, it's evolving, but at the same time, I think everybody that has a media company or a website or a podcast network or whatever,

trying to figure out how to cover and talk about this. And I think the best thing that anyone can do, myself included, is try to talk to as many people as possible. Try to learn from as many people as possible. Try to use your platform to educate people and do not let the moment go two weeks from now or three weeks from now. Because I do feel like there has been a tipping point. I do feel like good things are going to happen. I'm a generally optimistic person. I know the last eight, nine days has caused me to think about a lot of different things and things that I could do better. And I know I'm not alone on that front. But, you know, this podcast over the next, I don't know how many, you know, it's going to be a little more unstructured.

I'm not sure if I'm going to be doing three a week. We have a lot of responsibilities behind the scenes. And there's really some stuff that I want to get moving on. And there's only so much time in the day. And so I'm hoping to keep the three podcast a week schedule. But at the same time, it might be a little more erratic than it usually is. So just preparing you now. I really appreciate just everybody out there that has listened to this over, I don't know

how many years it's been, 13, 2007, dating back to the ESPN days, and have definitely listened to a lot of feedback, especially going back 20 years, but especially the last week or so. And it's still meaningful to hear from people and especially real thoughtful people that really put thought into what they wanted to convey and the perspective they had.

And I think if anything good has come out of the last eight days, I think that the dialogue has gone to a whole other level, a really good level in a lot of ways. And, you know, even you see what happened with the Drew Brees thing, which we'll talk about in a second with CeCe Sabathia, which started out as a terrible story and I think has evolved into a really good conversation. And I'm sure there are better ways to kind of get to where that conversation needed to go to, but I think 24-hour span from what he said to where it ended up was valuable. And I just think it's a good way to keep thinking about things as we

keep moving here the next two, three weeks that, um, what's actually going to change. What are you going to do? Like you think about campaign zero and DeRay McKesson, which you can check out the eight can't wait, which we talked about on Tuesday, which launched and had a lot of success. And I read a story today that in Pittsburgh, they've already embraced it. And the police department is already embracing all the things in there. And that's one city out of a lot. But at the same time, that's one city. And it's baby steps and it's little things like that that make me think that these last

eight days aren't going to be something that, that isn't just doesn't kind of come and go. I don't think that's going to happen this time. And I'm 50 years old. I've, you know, seen some different points in America and in the world, not any of the stuff that happened in the 60s. I was too young. But I do think this feels different in a lot of different ways. And I know my position as somebody who runs a company and has the ability to affect change in a couple different ways. And I take that seriously. And I really want to try to do better

and try to contribute to whatever moment we have and whatever moment we need to have going forward. So I'm putting a lot of thought into that. So I'm really excited about the podcast today with CeCe Sabathia. And we'll get to that in a second. First, Pearl Jam. all right cc sabathia is here you were protesting today in brooklyn tell me about what happened today yeah it was um Yeah, it was good. We went out with the family. My kids have been super into this.

I have a 16, 14, 11, and 9-year-old. And the 9-year-old has been super curious about everything that's going on and curious about being able to get killed with the skin color he has. You know what I'm saying? Everything really that's just going on in America right now, you know, after this George Floyd, you know, murder, you know, we just felt obligated to get out there with the kids and educate them on everything that's going on and, you know, get out there and not just post stuff

on social media, you know what I'm saying? So it was fun to be able to get out there with the kids and, and, um, you know, really show our support and protest. And, and,

you know, hopefully I'm, I'm marching and walking and going to these rallies with my boys and my daughters. So they don't have to do it with their kids. And, and, and that's really what it's about is just teaching them.

So, um, it was a good day today to be able to get out there and, and, you know, share with, with some people and, you to get out there and, and, you know, share with, with some people and, you know, everybody's going through this, you know, differently. Everybody, you know, goes through things differently and, and, uh, to be able to, to share what we're going through with different people, um, was helpful today. Was this the first one that you've gone

out with the whole family for? This is the first one we all went to. And actually, we were going to go to the one in Brooklyn today. And then there was one in Hackensack, New Jersey that we were going to go to at 530. But Brooklyn took all day. So it kind of took it out of us. But, you know, I think we're going to another one on Saturday over here in Jersey. And, you know, my kids are all in. They want to, you know, do as much, you know, activism, activists, I guess it would be called, you know, as they can.

So we're here to provide it for them and just take them to whatever they want to go to. How is this moment different for your family and how you talk to your kids compared to 2014, the last time we were here yeah this moment is different for me because um my 16 year old be driving in the fall um you know and he has dreads um you know he's a big kid plays sports and he's gonna be out on his own so you know the conversations we've been having before even before this when he got his permit and you know, the conversations we've been having before, even before this, when he got his permit and, you know, we were in the car together, his first driving lesson, the first lesson was about how to deal with the police when you get pulled over by the police and what you need to do and not move fast and, you know, not raise your voice and not come off as a threat.

All these things are things that I have to teach him as a driver. You know what I'm saying? I mean, it's just insane that I have to teach him that in 2020. So it's different for me this time because, you know, my kids are so much older and are going to have these, you know, encounters with the police. And, I mean, it's just inevitable that it's going to happen, um, in their lifetime and you just want them to be prepared. So, you know, now I just feel like I'm in a frenzy trying to tell him everything, trying to teach him everything,

trying to show him everything. And, um, you know, it's a tough time right now, but that's what, that's what being a parent is, I guess. When, so that, so your son was born in 2004? He was born in 2003. 2003. Yeah. So were you thinking, you're in the delivery room and you're thinking, man, I hope when this kid is old enough, there are conversations that I hope I'm not going to have to have. Or do you just know it's inevitable?

You know what? You just know it's inevitable. I think even if we weren't in this spot and things hadn't happened the last couple weeks, that would still's what we were out there today in Brooklyn for is to try to change that. So until that's changed, that's something that he's going to have to deal with. And when he has a kid, if nothing's changed, he's going to have to have the same conversation. So, you know, hopefully all this protesting and people out in the streets, not so much the looting, but just the people protesting and people out in the streets will get things changed. When you're out there, I mean, you got to be getting recognized, right? Like, how do you even handle that whole thing where you're a celebrity out there with a bunch of people?

You know what? I think New Yorkers just take me as like a regular guy now you know what i'm saying like i'm i'm so i guess in the community all the time and i'm just out all the time and i'm around all the time that it's not it's not a big deal a couple people notice me and you know say what's up but nobody actually take a picture nobody anything like that um and that never really happens to me in new y anymore. So I think I just, I'm out so much that people are like, oh, it's CeCe again. That sounds like you're an official New Yorker now.

It does, right? And something that I never thought I'd be coming from the West Coast. But yeah, I mean, I think I'm officially from the Bronx now. Unbelievable. Going back eight days when did you know that when did you know that this moment was going to be different what what was the moment what was the revelation where you're like oh this actually might be it this this could be it man to be honest like like, because I follow Steven Jackson, just hearing his reaction when he first posted, the very first post.

And that had to be, I think, that Monday night. Yeah, that was when I was like, man, this one might be a little different. Just because, you know, the video had came out and just seeing the optics of it and, you know know the cop on the knee after everybody going through so much for taking a knee um it just seemed like you know it was it was a perfect storm for you know us to get some change and obviously people have been locked up for three months um there's nothing to take the the focus off of what's going on um so i think uh just everything that's been going on in the country the past couple months kind of led us to this moment. And what do you think happens the next two weeks?

Because we know it just happened, and we've heard a lot of people, including myself, I said before we even came on, like, this feels different, and I hope this doesn't become a thing where for two weeks people care and then they move on. Yeah. What's going to happen for people not to move on this time? I think people just got to, I mean, obviously keep protesting, you know, keep posting. You know, we have to vote this year. You know, you got to, you know, you got to get the right people in office, you know, at the local and state levels, you know what I mean? And to try to get some of these things changed.

And, you know, maybe some kind of policing of the police would come out of this where, you know, some kind of law where they all have to wear body cams or, you know, just a universal set of laws for all police that, you know, that none of them can cross in any state, in any town. So, you know, that's what I'm hoping for is that, you know, some kind of policing of the actual police force will come out of this.

Because if you watch, you know, what happened to George Floyd and then everybody's out protesting, but, you know, people are still getting ran over by SUVs and, you know, the police are still beating people up on bikes and, you know, it's just a lot of different things where they're still using a lot of excessive force, even with the protesters. So something's got to change. So we've seen a lot of athletes talk about this stuff using social media and different things. LeBron, two times this week, you know, really came in as bad as strong as he ever has.

You're at a different point in your life, right? You've had some experience doing media. You've had a full career. You're older, you're wiser. What, what would it be like to be a high profile black athlete in your twenties with that kind of responsibility where everybody is expecting, um, we need you, you need to step up, but you're still trying to figure out who you are as a human being like what's that like yeah that's tough and and and to be honest if if there was social media around when i was in my 20s and and a lot of this social injustice was going on i wouldn't know how to handle it and how to post i'm very emotional so even if you look at my

instagram just the last couple days, it's a lot of emotional, you know what I mean? It's emotional stuff on there. So it's hard for me to deal with those emotions, especially in the moment. That's why I'm glad I got a couple days to do this before we started talking about it, just because, you know, if you caught me earlier this week, I probably would have flew off the cuff and said some things that I probably shouldn't say, you know, on a podcast. So, yeah, I mean, that's hard.

And, you know, I talk to Mookie Betts a lot and we talk about different things. And, you know, you know, some of these things is hard to speak up on. You know, you want you you want your whole fan base to love you. You know what I mean? And some of these things are hard for um you know some some some fans and some people to hear so um you know that that makes it a lot tougher as opposed to somebody like me or even somebody like lebron lebron's so good that you know as soon as he gets back out there on the court nobody cares what he tweets you know what i'm saying so um you know but but those level guys, it makes it hard as an athlete, especially an African-American athlete. So much stuff that goes on is so much stuff to care about. It's so much social injustice.

Um, I mean, you just be, you'd be going crazy. And, and, you know, a lot of my career, I tried to, for the most part, not really speak on things that were outside of sports. In the clubhouse, we talk about different things. We have different arguments and stuff like that. But in the media, I always just tried to steer clear of that stuff just because I didn't want any of the real backlash, to be honest. Well, and you also went from Cleveland then a little cup of coffee in Milwaukee and then all of a sudden you're in New York I'm in New York yeah a hundred times as many media members I mean Cleveland how many people are in the clubhouse for an average Indians game it was Sheldon Urlacher and Paul Hoings that was it

yeah in New York you have 200 people just waiting for you to fuck up and Paul Hoings. That was it. Yeah. In New York, you have 200 people just waiting for you to fuck up. Yeah. Holding the camera at you. Yeah.

I mean, we went to the ALCS with the Indians and we couldn't believe how much media was in the clubhouse. Like, you know, it was just crazy.

It was a swarm. But like, that's every day in New York. You know what I'm saying? When I got to New York, that's literally every day of our lives walking into the clubhouse is, youhouse is 20 or 30 media guys there.

Can I ask you about the difference of especially black athletes in different sports and how they're not only expected to respond to situations like the last eight days, but it's almost like they fit into these different buckets, right? The basketball players, we're just used to have the most leeway. They're the most outspoken. Um, they're the most out there, the football players, all of the stuff that's going on with the actual NFL, not just Kaepernick, but everything else that's there. You can feel a divide all the time. And we felt that this week with breeze and then baseball, I don't even know how to describe baseball i mean there's less black players now in baseball than there were i think when i was growing up loving the red socks like yeah what from like you mentioned mookie betts who i think is you know probably the highest profile black baseball star that we have what what are the limits on him what are the expectations

of him in that sport compared to a sport like basketball? I don't think, to be honest, I don't think they're that high, you know, and I don't, I don't think they're like a basketball or a football player just because there's so few of us in the game, you know, and, and for us, um, you know, a lot of times, you know, with so many few black, you know, baseball players, it's hard to even have a conversation about it because you're sometimes the only one in the locker room. You know what I mean? So a lot of a lot of times, a lot of the stuff don't even come up like you're having these conversations with your friends and people that you're closest with and not really your teammates because there's probably only one of you on the team. You know what I'm saying?

Right. So that that that's where, you know, some of us not speaking up the time um comes from because you'll be the only one in the locker room most of the time you know what i'm saying like if you think about the past couple years it's been me aaron i mean aaron judge um john carlo and and aaron hicks in the clubhouse we had cameron maybin like we have we've always had a lot of a-American or black guys on our roster with the Yankees, but every team isn't like that. So a lot of times you won't have the support that you think you will, stepping up and speaking on these social issues.

So I think that's where a lot of the quietness comes from, from a lot of the younger baseball players until you get to a point where you're like me when you got old kids and you're a lot older and you can just you just feel you know you want to say whatever you want it's also a sport that intentionally penalizes you in a lot of ways not not overtly but they don't want individual expression they don't you think about even stuff as as innocent as like a bat flip oh you broke the code oh you're showing him up i'm hopefully we moving out of that phase where the showing you up and breaking the code and all of that stuff can get out of the game hopefully really soon it's the most orderly of all the sports it is is. Where it's just like, no, no, this is how we've done it since the 1890s.

And you have to do it this way. Yeah, you got to respect the code. Or you're not playing the game the right way. Yeah, exactly. I hate that. It doesn't reflect real life at all. I always hated he don't play the game the right way. Well, what the fuck does that mean?

He don't play the game the right way. Does he run hard? Does he run the bases hard? He treat his teammates right? Well, he's playing the game the right way. Does he, does he run hard? Does he run the bases hard? He treat his teammates right. Well, he's playing the game the right way. You know what I'm saying? Like any other,

any, anything outside of that, I don't give a fuck about. It's like, I have, I don't care at all. We had Manny, who is my second favorite Red Sox player ever.

Yeah. And he, who's the first? Who would be the first? Well, Fred Lynn was my like first guy. Okay. When I was growing up as a kid.

He was our center fielder. I had all his cards, all that stuff. And then when we got Manny, we had him, I think, for eight and a half years. But he was just such an individual. And baseball is such a unique sport where you're with these guys day in, day out for six months. And it's kind of boring. It's always on. You're kind of half paying in, day out for six months. And it's kind of boring. It's always on. You're kind of half paying attention.

And then just with him and everybody in baseball would get so mad at him for all these different things he did. Right. And, and meanwhile, he's just like this innocent, simple guy, but he just couldn't help himself. And in Boston, it played in a really fascinating way where people embraced it early. Then they turned and they hated it. Then they turned. Then they hated it. Then they let, then they were back in. It was really dependent on whether we were winning or not.

I was about to say, it only depends on if they're winning or not. When they win the World Series, then it's Manny being Manny. And then if it's not, then he's killing the franchise. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I always felt like he cared. That was, I always thought I always started from there with him, but I just just i've never seen anything like him and when he left it was the

team even though we won a couple more world series and we had some great guys but the team was never quite the same from a person it's just he was so unique and i just from personality from a personality standpoint no no doubt i mean he was so i mean even with johnny damon too like you guys had some crazy person malar you know what i mean oh yeah it was it was a bunch of like wild personalities just slapped together on a couple teams so that yeah i can i can see that for sure yeah i mean i honestly that was probably the only reason we won in 04 is that team was so crazy yeah that was the only way you're going to flip a curse. I was about to say.

You felt that in Cleveland where it's the fan base and all this baggage that the franchise has, it actually falls on the players. Nah, no doubt. And like I said, my biggest disappointment, my whole career is not winning the championship in 07. Letting the Red Sox come back, we were up 3-1. Young team, very talented team. I think the most talented team7. Letting the Red Sox come back, we were up 3-1. Young team, very talented team. I think the most talented team in the league at the time for me.

You know, we were the better team. They were just more experienced. And we didn't know how to close a series out. You know what I'm saying? And, you know, we let them come back and they ended up beating the Rockies. I think they swept the Rockies that year, which would have been a huge, huge, huge World Series for us in Cleveland. And we kind of let that one slip through the cracks just being young guys, you know.

The Rockies, beating the Indians was definitely our World Series that year. Yes. You guys had the best team. We had the best team, but I didn't pitch like I should have. If I pitched the way I pitched at the end of 08 or even in the 09 playoffs, then we win the World Series. But I was young and wanted all the pressure. I wanted all the glory. I wanted to be the reason why we won.

I wanted to be the ALCS MVP, the World Series MVP. I wanted it all, and I ended up being the reason why we fucking lost the series. It's so weird to hear somebody talk about a Red Sox team as a team that took something from them. My first 30 years of my life was just pain and falling short. And then some, I don't know,

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2001. 2001. Yeah, I came up with 01. And LeBron's a high schooler at that point lebron was i think he might have been in the 10th grade at that time he might have been are you hearing about him at that point no i was going to see him so our um our ref our um trainer our head trainer paul spacuzza was a high school andAU referee. And they used to bring all the top prospects and even some of the younger big league guys to Cleveland in January for this thing called

winter development. We would get a host family. We stay up there for a month and a half and then go down to Winter Haven for spring training. So during that time, you know, Paul used to always tell me, you got to come see this kid play. I'm like, man, I'm not going to see my fucking high school kid play. There's no chance I'm going to watch this kid play. I'm like, man, I'm not going to see my fucking high school kid play. Like, there's no chance I'm going to watch this. He told me his whole freshman year, he's like, you got to come see him play. You got to come see him play. I'm like, no chance. He was like, so I get up there the winter of 2000.

Had to be the winter of 2000. And maybe it was the winter of 2001. And he was like, all right, he's playing across the street. Like, I mean, right here, we can just walk over there. Like, let's go see him play. And I was like, and I walked over and went to go see him play. And he was literally what he is now. He was a grown man.

Like, it was unbelievable. You could just see that he was going to be a superstar at that age. And just, you know, as long as he didn't get hurt, as long as, you know, shit didn't happen. Like he was going to be the guy. It was, it was insane to watch him. Yeah.

There was a whole thing at, at least for a tiny bit where people were like, are we sure he's the age he's supposed to be? Right. Yeah. He was, they were talking about like, maybe he was older.

Is he 25? But then when you, when you look back at the pictures of him in high school, he really does look young. Cause you think like he's really, now we know what a grown man LeBron looks like because he grew into one. Yeah, he looked really young. And even his game was a lot younger.

I mean, his body, you know what I'm saying? Like he was a lot skinnier. Got a chance to see him play football a couple times. Oh, really? Yeah, I got a chance to see him play football a couple times. He's a great receiver. He could have easily did that if he wanted to. So, yeah, man, he was fun to watch,

and it was fun to be up there at that time, you know, Northeast Ohio, you know, watching him do his thing. So, for me, he's the only athlete that's been under that much pressure at the age of 15, 16 years old and delivered. Whatever delivering is. You know what I'm saying? Won a championship in Cleveland. He's got three rings. He's one of the best players on the planet.

There's never been a guy on the cover of Sports Illustrated at that age that's been able to deliver. Yeah, it's funny because we're doing this documentary we have on HBO that's actually going to come out in July called Showbiz Kids about child actors and what happens to them after, you know, how hard it is to become famous when you're young and, and just all the different ways it can go. And you think of LeBron and he, he's almost like a child actor, right? We get to know him when he's 15 and he's getting all this stuff thrown at him that we have just seen go really badly for

a lot of different people and yeah i'm with you i think he's handled it from start to finish probably the best out of anybody i i actually think he'd be the number one ranked guy for how have you handled this the worst thing he ever did was the decision which was ultimately the only thing that hurt was him yeah i mean he's open schools i mean there's nothing this guy hasn't done like he's you know he's a global icon and he wears it well like he's a family man you know he does everything right like like you said i mean he's yeah he's he's probably the he's the number one guy as far as like how to handle you know all that success and and i mean he i mean he did his friends yeah i mean rich and math too you know i'm saying like it's crazy he did wear a yankee hat to your playoff game though

he's a yankee fan he's i know i'm just pointing that out don't like him too much he did he did for it against you he's a yankee fan and then and then uh in 16 he he was all Indians when they were playing the Cubs in the World Series. Yeah, he flipped. So he's a sports bigamist. He had two teams. He's got two wives. Yeah, for sure.

But if I see him, he'll always go back to his Yankees. You know what I'm saying? But I think 16, they were just feeling it so much that he went back. He went back to Cleveland, which is good for him. Did you get to know him when he was on the Cavs the first time around when he was,

when you're on the Indians, he's on the Cavs. Both of you guys are on the Ascent. They make the 07 finals. You should have won the 07 World Series. Like, was there any

parallel stuff going on? Yeah, for sure. I've known him this whole time. I was really, I've always been really close with Wes and, you know, him and LeBron and Wes are really close. And I grew up with this whole time. I was really, I've always been really close with Wes. And, and,

you know, him and LeBron and Wes are really close. And, and I grew up with, with Drew Gooden. And Drew played in Cleveland, those, that first time around.

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I mean, I was, I was around all the time because like I said, literally me and Drew grew up together.

Still really close friends. Our wives are really close. So, I was around all the time when, you know, in those early years for sure cleveland then after that the thing people don't know about you and we've talked a couple times is uh you're just a gigantic sports fan which i'm always i'm always amazed when somebody who was that successful in a sport is also really well versed in other sports because i don't understand how people have time to actually like legit follow because was that successful in a sport is also really well versed in other sports.

Cause I don't understand how people have time to actually like legit follow. Cause Jalen was like this too, where Jalen was a huge football fan. I'm like, how the fuck did you follow football? Making $20 million a year to play for the Pacers. But, but you follow this stuff when,

when it fell apart for Cleveland, LeBron leaves, the Indians thing falls apart. Like, how bad did you feel? Did you just think that was it? They're never winning? They're screwed for life? I felt horrible because I'm a part of that history.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm a part of that history, that fucked up Cleveland sports history where, damn, like, if CeCe pitched better, we win a World Series. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to be a part of, like, that Ernest Bynum. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to be a part of that, but I am. Like, and, yeah, it was tough. And especially, this is going to sound weird, but, like, especially coming here and then winning in 09 and then, like, LeBron left that year.

Like, you know what I'm saying? It was just, I felt guilty. Yeah, for sure. here and then winning in 09 and then like LeBron left that year like you know I'm saying it was just I felt guilty yeah for sure I mean I like I like I mean I think I've told you this you know Cleveland I feel like is home you know one of places where I kind of grew up you know I got there when I was 20 years old I had you know three of my kids were born there um you know it's just like a place that I consider you know to be like home be like home and to not be able to deliver a championship there. It really sucks. I still think about it all the time.

Yeah, you had the typical baseball player arc, but the best version of it, the Cleveland part sucked, obviously, but you get pennant trade to Milwaukee, but then you actually got to pitch in the playoffs and kind of make a run there. And then you look at the big landscape and you sign with the Yankees. And by the way, uh, not to be a dick to the Yankee fans listening, but that's their only title since 2000. I just want to mention that, but you signed

there and it actually is the rare giant free agent signing and it works and they win a world world series, which fyi with baseball that usually is not how it plays out usually they sign the guy it's a disaster he makes so much money the fans turn on him a month in and it goes down this whole other path but for you it was the opposite yeah it was and like i said i mean everything was such a learning experience after you know 07 winning the cy young pitching horribly horribly in the playoffs and kind of losing us the World Series. Oh, wait, I come back the next year, get off to a horrible start in the first half, and then pitch great down the stretch and get that Milwaukee. Kind of like playoff games. Those

were like playoff games at the end of the year. Like those last three or four like we had to win those games and i'm pitching on three days rest so you know it's it's in hot like everything's heightened like the playoffs so you know i get to the next year i'm a yankee and i've just did this i just went down the stretch in milwaukee pitching three days rest like i'm gonna do this the whole playoffs like there's there's no problem you know what i'm saying like it was like a it like a progression for me. Like, a lot, you know, I feel like some athletes get it where they just kind of like can just kind of flip the switch where they can lock in. It's playoff time.

They can lock in and dominate. And I think it took me, you know, those 07, 08, and then leading up to 09 to be able to turn into the pitcher that I wanted to be in October reps some guys don't need reps though some guys don't need reps but I needed reps for sure this was my case I got in a shit because I was mad

that Devin Booker didn't play for Team USA last year and I was like that guy's never played a meaningful basketball game if he goes and plays team USA, the pressure of that. And then everybody got mad at me. He,

he doesn't want to get hurt. The blah, blah, blah. And it's like, all right, maybe there's no right answer, but I still feel like I'm right to the degree of reps better.

Yeah. Devin Booker is great. I want to see him in situations when it's like the crap you're down five and the crowd's fucking going nuts and you have to come through. And sometimes you just don't know with people until they've been in that spot. You never know. But do you think that the guys that go play for Team USA when they spend that summer playing,

they come back the next year at another level? Maybe it's just because they work out with everybody else that's great and you get different workout routines and stuff like that or it's just because they work out with everybody else that's great and you get different workout routines and stuff like that or it's just a practice or whatever. But the guys that come back from Team USA, the Olympic years and the years that they have to qualify, I feel like they have the better seasons when they come back that next year. It's irrefutable that there's legit statistical evidence for it.

And I think being around guys, not only just the level of competition every day, but it especially happened in 08 when you have older players and you have the younger guys who think they know everything, but they really don't. And that team had Wade and Carmelo and LeBron

and some other guys. And they're watching Kobe, who's a lunatic at the time, and is who he is. And they're watching that and they're going, oh man, okay, so is who he is. And they're watching that, and they're going, oh, man, okay, so that's what I have to do? That's what you got to do. And I think that's...

And you look at all three of those guys were great in the 08-09 season. But I think that's the most underrated thing. I think when great players are around other great players, I'm sure you felt this at the Yankees, because the Yankees had a huge payroll and a lot of great players. I'm sure you felt this at the Yankees because the Yankees had a huge payroll and a lot of great players. I'm sure you're learning,

you know, different pieces from whoever that maybe you wouldn't be learning if you're on the Florida Marlins on a 62-win team.

Yeah, 1,000%. Like, coming here and getting to play with Andy, Mo, you know, A-Rod, Jeter, all these different guys,

you know, first you're learning, you are learning, but then it just takes the pressure off. It unlocks your game because I don't have to go out and throw a shutout. Like, I don't have to go out and throw a shutout to win the game. I can pitch eight great innings, give the ball to Mo, and the fucking game's over.

You know what I'm saying? I don't have to go out and strike out 15. I can put the ball, throw my two-seam, put the ball on the ground, let A-Rod, Jeter, Robbie Cano, Teixeira do their thing. Like, it just kind of unlocks your game when you play around so many other great players because you don't have to do too much. You know what I'm saying? And that's not a knock on anybody else I play with. It's just like a compliment to these great Yankees that I got a chance to play with.

And, you know, a lot of them are Hall of Famers. So, yeah, I mean, for sure, being around other great athletes, you know, for me, it just took the pressure off. And two, I learned a lot from, I mean, I wouldn't have had the second half of my career, you know, not knowing that cutter from Andy Amo. So, yeah, I mean, you learn so much, man. It's crazy. And I just always think about the guys from Team USA that, you know, they go and play that summer and then they come back and just kill it the next year. It's amazing to watch. You know, when you signed with the Yankees,

I'm sure there were a lot of reasons, right? It was a lot of money. It's a really good team. You want to win a title. You want to live in a big city or adjacent to a big city, things like that. But you don't, did you fully realize the Rivera part of it? Like how good he was?

Just what, what, what an asset that would be in your life to just know that somebody was lurking in the ninth inning that was just going to shut down whatever you had just done in the best way. I had no idea how awesome that would be. Like, cause I'm always,

I was just always conditioned when I was younger to finish it. Like, I'm always out there, like, if I don't finish this fucking game, like, I'm pissed, you know? And then it was just like, let me just go eight. You know what I'm saying? Like, this guy is the best pitcher of all time ever. In the bullpen, like, I would get excited. Like, I'd be like, Joe, you're not taking me out. Like, a couple times he let me go and I'm like, Joe, like, you know, Moe is down there.

I could just go up, take a shower, slap five, you know what I'm saying, in 10 minutes. Like, it was a great asset to have, and I think I kind of took it for granted because when he wasn't there, then you get to see, like, how scary the ninth inning really is. It's funny. My son really got into football this year. And for some reason he, you know,

cause he's a 12 and after old kid and he loves lists and who's the greatest. And so we always talk about rice and LT and all these guys. And it's, it's a shorter list than you think when you're rattling off, you know, the greatest players. And I always tell them like I'm 50.

I've seen basically, I can remember everybody from the mid seventies on here. Here are like the seven guys that stood out. If I did that for baseball, I don't know who I would start with before him. And I don't think he's seen as the greatest player of all time, but I'm just talking about my lifetime where I think a guy's like, who's a one of one,

who is somebody that was completely unlike anybody else that was in your life as a sports fan. And I think for baseball, like he just kind of, he's like kind of over here and then you can, you could litigate all the other stuff and all the other great players I've seen and all these different positions, great starters, but he's like kind of over here on the side while you argue about everybody else, right? He is. And I think if you would just ask just anybody that question randomly, they probably wouldn't put him in their list. Right.

You know what I mean? Like, because he is just off to the side over here, like just this, just one of one, like you said. So yeah, I mean, it makes it kind of weird when you're having those conversations of, like, who's the greatest baseball player you've ever seen, and you don't mention his name because he was so dominant for so long with one pitch. He threw one pitch. You know what I'm saying? Like, later in his career, when I got to know him, he started throwing a two-seamer a little bit, but, I mean, he dominated with one pitch. And, you know, whether it was April 1st or october 31st he's out there same demeanor um you know if we lose he's back out there the next day you know just it just i mean i've never seen anybody so even kill man it's crazy we were just going at him you know that

unbelievable red sox yankees stretch which you. I think by the time you got there, the rivalry wasn't the same, but we'd play them like 18 times. Plus if we met in the playoffs, another five to seven. And it always felt like such an achievement if we got to run off them in a way that it just didn't feel like with any other pitcher, you know what I mean? There's been a lot of great pitchers who had awesome seasons and great stretches. And that's the only guy where like, even in 04, when the famous, you know, getting a run in the Robert Steele and then game five, we got to, it was just so unbelievable to watch.

And it wasn't even, they were like cheap runs. It's like a wall. It was like jam shots but you feel like you you you uh really accomplished something unbelievable and then when he came they were the first game when we rose the banner in 05 and they introduced all the guys and rivera gets introduced and the fenway fans go nuts because it was kind of like sarcastic like thanks you thanks. You were there when it all turned. And he kind of owned it. He just raised his hand.

And it was just, he was the one guy that we kind of really liked. Just out of pure respect. It was just weird to be like, I fucking hate that guy. Like, nobody felt that way with him. And you know what's crazy about mo is like i said he was always he was always exactly the same um you know you know you you're right it's hard for people to hate him but he was just always so helpful too you know what i mean so i think like at all-star games he would help different players and different pitchers so i

think the respect that the players have for him maybe be kind of rubbed off as the fans, too. You know what I mean? Like, because he had so much respect from everybody, really, around the league and still does. Well, it's kind of hard to hate Mo, like, seriously. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, it feels, I don't know. Listen, I've managed to find hate in my heart for every Yankee ever that's gone against us. Sports hate, not real hate.

But, you know, one thing with him, there's a serenity about him. And I always hear teammates talk about that, that it would weirdly have this calming effect on teammates too. And I also don't know anybody else I've ever heard, at least in baseball, that you heard other people talk about that. There was an aura about him that actually gave them kind of calm is that true did you feel that yeah i mean yeah of course i mean my calm was like knowing he was in the bullpen you know what i'm saying like knowing he was down there and to your

point like i remember a couple of times like he would give up runs in the night say we were up by three he gave up a run like it felt like the other team, like, felt like they walked him off. Like, we still won the game, but everybody's like, they're over there slapping five and shit. Like, yeah,

we might be able to win tomorrow. Like, we just scored a run off Mo. Like, that shit gave people confidence. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's a trip,

man. It was a trip playing with him and watching him do his thing. It was fun. Definitely a blessing. What was the least surprising thing about Yankee fans once you spent an entire decade with them? And what was the most surprising thing about Yankee fans? I hate Yankee fans, by the way, but I'm going to ask him.

I think the least surprising thing is that they're very knowledgeable. Like, they know baseball. You know what I'm saying? And that's what I think as a player and to be able to play here for I think I played 11 or 12 years I think 11 years um they hold you accountable like like you're always like I'm working on the offseason in January thinking about like man I can't get booed off the field and you know I'm saying like that really is a part of your psyche as a Yankee is the fans and how you have to respect them and go out and give your best effort every time.

And I think that's where our love, our mutual love and respect came from is because they knew every time I went out there, I was going to give them 150. My whole heart was going to be left out there in the Bronx every time. And I think they respected that whether it was good or bad or whatever, that's just who I was and how I played. So I think it worked out good for me to be so emotional and wear my heart on my sleeve and go out there

and do the things that I did. And I think we had that mutual appreciation for each other because I guess I played so hard. You know, some guys can't handle that because I think Boston and New York and Philly and a couple other cities, they're all kind of like that. Right.

And they have such high expectations that people either rise to the expectations or they literally cave. They go the other way. They just can't handle it. can you see the other side of that? Can you see when, when somebody just, you know,

like we had guys like Carl Crawford's a good example of somebody. You always hear the words, he wasn't meant to play in Boston. It's like like why isn't somebody meant to play in a city like that um you know i know carl we we grew up together i mean i grew up together we came up together had the same agent i think that for carl i think boston was just too small of a city i think you know he wanted to go out and go to dinner do different things and stuff like that and i think you know boston wasn't going to allow him to be able to do those things. And I think it just became baseball, baseball, baseball.

And that got hard on him. I think for me, no, I mean, it's hard for me to see it any other way than how it played out for me because I put so much pressure on myself. Yeah. That I appreciate what they make you go through so much pressure on myself. Yeah. That like, you know, like that, I appreciate what they make you go through. If that makes sense. Yeah. Because that's, that's how I am on myself. Like, that's how hard I am on myself. Like, I mean, I'm pissed if I don't go seven, eight innings, you know, when I'm younger, like if I don't go out there and dominate every time and feel like I dominated that team, you know, I didn't feel like I did my job.

So, um, I, I appreciated, you know, being held to that high ass standard, um, because that's what I held myself to. And, and, and I never expected anything else, um, from myself and, and, you know, in a different way, you know, I got four, I had, you know, three kids when I first came here, had my fourth in 2010. And, you know, when I left the ballpark, I had three kids when I first came here. I had my fourth in 2010. When I left the ballpark, I would come home and just hang out with them. Once I left the field, I left everything, whether it was a good or bad game, they didn't care. Seven runs, no hitter, they don't give a shit.

It's dad's home and it's time to hang out and play. That's what I think allowed me to flip the switch, leave it at the stadium, come home, hang out, do my thing, and then be able to go back and turn it back on. So my family helped me big time in that way. Well, nowadays, you'd only, if you were 25, you'd only have to worry about six innings and 94 pitches. Right. You'd be done. I'd be done. Like, I can live in this era bro like that's what i said like y'all

want to go to six starters like i only need to go five innings like towards my towards the end of my career it was like they was catering this shit for me like right uh i interrupted you before you answered what was the most surprising thing about yankee fans um i don't know if anything surprised me about yankee fans um all right that could be the answer yeah i don't i don't know if anything surprised me about yankee fans um all right that could be the answer yeah i don't i don't know if anything so i was ready for everything you know i mean and i was i was terrified to be honest did they have the new stadium yet yeah it did right oh nine was the first year oh nine was the first year and that was a big part of me signing here was like i had played in cleveland and that was kind of a new stadium. It opened in 94, and I got in there in 01.

So, like, I wasn't all about going to Dodgers. I really thought I was going to be a Dodger. I thought the Dodgers were going to come after me heavy. And being a West Coast guy, I thought that's where I would end up. But I wasn't really excited about playing in, like, old Dodger Stadium with the old clubhouse and, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I was excited to get here and have a new clubhouse and kind of start over with, obviously, one of the, you know what I'm saying? Like I was excited to get here and have a new clubhouse and kind of start over with, with obviously one of the, you know, most storied

franchises in baseball history, but have a new, but have a new stadium. Hey, just wanted to tell you about a couple of new offerings from the Ringer Podcast Network. If you haven't listened to Boom Bust, the rise and fall of HQ hosted by Alyssa Beresnack, we are a few episodes in and it is an amazing story. And if you like narrative podcasts, I highly recommend that one. Also, we launched Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay, which was a long time coming. I'm glad it's finally here on the podcast network,

including when the pandemic happened. We just thought, all right, we won't be able to do this until we can all get everybody in the same room. And then once we kind of figured out how to do stuff remotely, the podcast was able to come together. So that's been awesome. Please check that out. They do it twice a week.

And I just think they're great together. And I really enjoy them. And it's knowing them personally for a while to actually see the podcast kind of match what I had in my head has been a pretty cool experience. So check that out and check out everything we're doing on the Ringer Podcast Network. Back to this one. There's two baseball questions we just have to quickly talk about. No word.

And then I don't want to talk about baseball anymore. You mentioned Mookie. Uh-huh. One of top five favorite Red Sox player for me. Incredibly important player just for the history of the franchise, a signature black superstar in his prime or hitting his prime. The kind of guy that when I was growing up, we had either always screwed it up with, or, you know, I, when I was growing up, we had either always screwed it up with, or, you know, when I was growing up,

reading about the Red Sox, like, a racist tradition. Yeah. I was going to ask, have they ever had, like, a Mookie? I mean, I guess Jim Rice, maybe, right? Yeah, I mean, Jim Rice was incredible. But, I mean, obviously not, I mean, Mookie. incredible. Um, but I mean, obviously not. I mean, we've had minority players,

but, um, Mookie was, Mookie had a chance to be one of the top five guys in the league, um, for 15 years for a position player, something like that. And Jim Rice was an incredible hitter.

He peaked for three years. He had a big, you know, he had a couple other big seasons, but it was really an offensive player. It wasn't, I was telling you when we talked on the phone once about just how incredible Mookie was at everything. Like, we had never had a player who was just like,

what's he bad at? And you're just like, nothing. The guy's great at every single part of baseball. But that's his whole life. Every aspect of his life he's great at. Like, he can bowl 300. He can shoot 62 on the golf course. Like, he can dunk.

He can do everything. And so we lose him. And not only are you losing the player, but you're also losing somebody that I felt like could have been important in the city and was. Why do you think he left? Or why do you think he wanted to leave? I don't know honestly

um i mean maybe it could have been like that same thing like where you know he wants to go out and do different things and like he's like we talked about boston won't allow you to do that stuff um you know things change all the time in these organizations and you know the al east is hard you know i'm saying like you don't you don't know which way the organization is going. You know what I mean? You always want to be, especially in this division, you always want to be at the top of this division because it can be long summers.

You know what I mean? So I think, you know, maybe just a combination of, you know, some of that stuff off the field and maybe not knowing where the organization is going kind of led for them to trade. And honestly, I mean, they traded him. They didn't have to. You know what I'm saying? Like, so they, I mean,

they could have. They could have. I think they felt like he was, I think they felt like he was leaving, which I would not have, I still would have played it out. I still would have played it out or even waited until like what the Orioles did with Manny or what the Indians did with me. You know what I'm saying?

Like waited out to the middle of next summer and see what happens. Yeah, they were afraid to do that. And that leads me to question number two, because it actually might have turned out to be a good trade if there's no baseball this season. It's an appalling trade and one of my least favorite red sox trades ever but if if we have a canceled season maybe it'll be justifiable but um especially if you don't sign back with the dodgers right right do you think uh we have baseball this year you know what i think it has to get done in the next couple 10 days like it has to get done pretty quick if you're going to start sometime in July

just because I feel like guys are kind of in off-season mode right now where you don't really know if you're playing. Guys are starting to lift. They're in the off-season. Maybe not throwing as much as they were early because you didn't know if you were going to be going for a week or two.

It's been three months. You know what I'm saying? So they need to get something going pretty quick because I feel like they need a longer spring training than three weeks just because the guys took so much time off. So this is going to take a little longer than three weeks to get people back to where there is no injuries or unless you're going to let them carry 30 to 35 guys. Are you allowed to celebrate if you win the World Series after a 50-game season, or maybe we just use cheap beer? We use like, what do we do?

You're allowed to celebrate the World Series or Super Bowl or NBA championship at any time. I don't care if it's a lockout. I don't care if you play the basketball. I don't care if you play 15 games in football. I don't care if it's the lockout. I don't care if you play the basketball. I don't care if you play 15 games. I don't care if you play four games. If you win a championship, you're allowed to celebrate. You don't think they should have a mini trophy?

Like a half trophy? Nah, the trophy could be the same, but it don't have to be Ace of Spades in the locker room. We can get a little different champagne. Championships are championships, man. Them things are hard to come by, for sure. Like, and if you out there playing and the other team's playing hard as they can

and, you know, you win a championship, you don't want nobody to take that away from it or put an asterisk on it or anything like that. Championships is championships. Well, if the Red Sox win, there would be no asterisk for me. It's legit. What are you guys talking about? If anyone else winsisk for me. I, I, it's legit. What are you guys talking about?

If anyone else wins, I'd just say, ah, it didn't matter. Yeah, I'm with you. I feel like we passed a point of no return about two weeks ago. Cause like,

imagine, let's say you're 29 year old you. What's your routine right now? What do you, 29, 20, how are you getting ready right now? What are you... 29... How are you getting ready right now? Where are you mentally? You have no idea

when the baseball is coming back. Nah, 29-year-old me is eating a lot of Wendy's and drinking a lot of Hennessy, bro. Like, I'm not getting ready to pitch in the middle of the summer. And I definitely don't want to go to Tampa in the middle of the fucking summer

to have spring training. Right. Like, no thank you, bro. Like, not at not at all so i think if i was in my prime i'd probably just sit this year out yeah i do think if baseball did like quickly and abruptly come back i do think some of the body sizes will be interesting to see. It's going to be very interesting to see. You're going to see who worked hard during quarantine and who kind of like would do the shit that I would have did at 29. And by the way, might be the same for the NBA.

Because you have these, initially we thought it was going to be a 16-team playoff. Potentially that's it. Now we have 22 teams. I guarantee there's going to be three or four guys who have not done anything for three months. Or even like somebody like Harden that's lost 20 pounds. Like that scares me. Like he's lost 20 pounds.

Is that true? That's what they said. I mean, I seen a picture of him and then somebody said that he's lost 15 to 20 pounds. Wow. Which is, that's right. That's what I'm like, man, I mean, it takes you a while to get into that new body and like to figure things out. Like, with less weight and, like, the way his game is built.

Like, LeBron and Melo tried that, and that, you know, like, that shit don't work, losing that much weight. I mean, I tried it. I lost, you know what I'm saying? It didn't work for me. Like, it's hard as an athlete to just lose that much weight and then expect you to come back at the same strength and even you know cardio and everything so it'll be interesting it's gonna be interesting but i think those guys are at a higher risk of getting injured than baseball players if they do whenever they do come back agree especially if uh i think the biggest thing that's changed with the league the last 15 years is how much time energy and attention they, the good guys spend on their bodies. Even guys like Harden, who has the famous reputation of like, Oh yeah, go,

go to the strip club and wake them up at six o'clock. And, but that guy work, that guy works as hard on his game as anybody. And that's a little unfair that that's a reputation. Um, and I think that's why they're able to play these 35, 36, 3,700 minute seasons when you include the playoffs and go to the free throw line 10 times a game,

11 times a game. Harden's just like, he's like fucking Emmitt Smith in the early 90s, just pounding, bouncing off guys. And if his body isn't right, I'm with you. I do think there's going to be some injuries we've seen it in every lockout season there's always been stuff in 99 it happened in 2012 it happened it's dangerous plus you're compacting the games you're playing more games

in a condensed rate and uh yeah it's worrisome but um i i actually like where they settled with it did you like it? The 22 team and the, and the whole thing really trying to have a real season. Yeah. I'm not mad at it at all. I mean, you know,

I would have been happy if they came back with 30 teams. I just know some of those teams didn't want like the Warriors don't want Steph going out there to play. You know what I'm saying? Like the Nets don't need, you know, Kevin Durant or, you know,

Kyrie trying to come back. But, um, no, I'm, I'm excited. I love NBA. So any NBA that we get, and now that they're starting July 31st, I feel like they're giving guys time now to get in shape. Like, hey, listen, we started July 31st.

You know what I'm saying? We're giving y'all six to eight weeks to get your shit together so we can have a season and not have some of these guys get hurt but for me the biggest thing is you know they'll be done what they'll be done in october yeah it's it seems it's a little floating because if series end early they might be able to speed up the next series speed it up because they don't there's no travel everybody can just play every other day but um now the season will start in december they no way they come back and start the season regularly right no but don't you like that though the christmas started on christmas and went all the way through july i'm in i love it i'm in for this like i'm so excited about this for next summer and like what it potentially means for us, like going to games in the summertime,

NBA late in the summer. Like that's going to be legit for like us fans. I know it's going to suck for the players cause they get their summer taken away. But like as a NBA fan, like I'm super excited for them to start on or around Christmas. Um, you know,

we get a full NFL season, not have to start worrying about basketball. I can lock in on my fantasy teams because the Raiders suck after like fucking eight weeks. But no, I'm excited to be able for them to start late, mid-December and go through July. It's going to be fun for us

fans, I think. Yeah, but notice who you left out. The big loser. Baseball. Yeah, baseball gets crushed. But fans don't start watching baseball until August anyway. Yeah, but that's bad, though. It's going to crush for us?

Yeah, I mean, the thing that's going to crush for us is the All-Star game. I think that baseball should move the All-Star game back to after the NBA season's over. Especially if they're having the finals in July.

You know what I mean? I think we should move the All-Star game back. But I think, I mean, the baseball, the people that love baseball, the fans are going to find a way to watch it. And I think, you know, the casual fan, sports fan, they don't really start watching baseball until August, September anyway. Well, maybe we'll end up with a shorter season, which I feel like we probably should add anyway.

Yeah. Maybe we... Nah, we don't... I don't think they'll ever change the, the, the season. I don't think so. I think guys like to play 162. I think people are used to seeing like what your numbers can look like in April and then turn it around and in September, like we're just conditioned for the marathon as players. That makes sense.

Anything shorter than 162. I think guys will freak out. They'll say, oh, I wish we could have more off days and blah, blah, blah, blah. But guys love baseball. The players, and they want to play every day. Or they just want to be away from their families. It sounds like what you're really saying. They like being on the road. What do you miss most about playing? playing like what's the dumbest thing

you miss about not being on a team you know honestly like the food like the food at yankee stadium is so good like i mean i'm basically still like i talk to all the guys all the time i'm you know i'm still working down there with um with cashman like a special assistant so i get like all the perks of being around the team and like if i miss it i can go down there say what's up to the guys and all that stuff but i think like being around there being like just free to eat all the food all day like we had two great chefs in the in the yankee clubhouse that would just cook me whatever fried chicken like all kind of shit so like i think i'm gonna miss that like having having no chefs were you a dugout guy or a bullpen guy i was a dugout guy and um i've always been like a in the dugout guy a lot and and later in my career the last like three or four years i was there i was down there all the time so that's why you see me getting

tossed and shit and i'm starting fights and like, because I was spending so much time down in the dugout. But yeah, no, I was, I was, and I, the last month of the season, maybe six weeks,

I went down to the bullpen. So I was in the bullpen for the last six weeks and then the playoffs. I enjoyed that too. I mean, I think I was just enjoying my time. Yeah. You know, cause I knew it was going to be over. So everything I really like was just taken in and, um, just love being a part of. So. You know, cause I knew it was going to be over. So everything I really like was just taken in and,

um, just love being a part of. So, you know, whatever. I love being a bullpen too. That was fun. Um,

did anyone ever charge a mound on you? Never. I never got charged, man. Never, ever. Were you kind of wait deep down, waiting for it,

wondering what it would be like to be tested? I was. Yeah. It was like nerve wracking a little bit. You know what I'm saying? Cause I had never, never been charged. like, nerve-wracking a little bit, you know what I'm saying? Because I had never been charged. I'd only been, like, out there running in fights, you know what I'm saying? But, no, I don't even think anybody's ever, like, pretended to charge or, like, stood at the plate and yelled and shit or nothing.

Like, nothing like that ever happened to me. Not that I can recall. Maybe, like, I have to look at some old clips or something. But it seemed like every time I was in a fight, it was because of some shit that I can recall. Maybe, like, I have to look at some old clips or something, but it seemed like every time I was in a fight, it was because of some shit that I started. You know what I'm saying?

So... What was the best fight you were in? Which team was it? Indians, Yankees? Who was it? The Yankees. We had one here in New York

against Toronto when I watched Sato, Jorge Posada, beat up this left-handed reliever for the Blue Jays, man. It was like, I was screaming for him to stop. Like, please stop. I can't remember that guy's name. But yeah, that one. And then the 17 fight we had with the Tigers.

Oh, yeah. That was a good one. That was a great one. And that was one, like, sometimes those fights can bring you together. They can break you up or, you know, break the team up. That was one that, like, brought our team so close together. And, like, it was, I mean, it was a great fight. Like, we had a big fight against the Tigers.

And, you know, after that, we were just one. Like, we were all together. And that's what led us on that great run we want we ended up getting the wild card coming back beating the indians and then we know what the fucking astros did so but but after that fight in 17 was uh against the tigers you know that kind of got us rolling the best one of the best i mean having pedro pass through my life was still like one of the, like the true highlights of my life, like prime Pedro,

just having that every week. But there was this game in Tampa when he hit Gerald ice Williams or he dusted him. I can't remember if it hit him or not, or he almost hit him. And he kind of waited a second and then he came out and he charged him. He looked down at his hair. Remember?

He looked, he kind of rope it up that like he, out and he charged him. He looked down at his hair. Remember he looked he kind of rope-a-doped it like he walked far enough away. So the umpire wasn't on to him and then he went for it and it was a whole brawl and Pedro was so mad and he stayed in the game and it was I think

the second best I've ever seen him pitch other than the famous game in Yankee Stadium when he had the one hit the one hitter against the 99 Yankees. But, um, he basically pitched a no hitter from that time on. I think there was a guy who had already gotten hit and he was just throwing like 118 miles an hour and he was so mad that he was just like destroying them. But you're right. It's, you kind of know what kind of team you have by what happens the first time there's something like that. Right.

Because it can go the other way. And I can't remember what year somebody we had a really I think it was the 2000 team. We had a fight and one guy came out of the dugout, but nobody came with him. And it was like a disaster. Yeah. So it can go the other way. Watching that that fight like the Tigers, it destroyed the Tigers after that. Like, Verlander got traded.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I remember him and Victor or him and Miggy were going at it because maybe he didn't come out or something. I don't know. I mean, you know, me and Victor Martinez are really close, too. But I don't know how it went. But, like, I remember them arguing in their dugout. Like, and then the next couple weeks, they were

just dismantled. You know what I'm saying? It was crazy, man. I mean, like you said, like I said, those fights can either make you or break you as a club. So knowing that we had all those dudes and everybody was willing to fight. It was a bunch of young guys at the time

too. Judge was young. Tyler Austin was young. Me and Sonny were out there mixing. That was a good day. That was a to fight. It was a bunch of young guys at the time too. Judge was young. Tyler Austin was young. Me and Sonny were out there mixing it. That was a good day. That was a fun fight. We had a good time after too. I'll tell you, the team that the Yankees had in 19 was one of the great bench clearing brawl

teams. I don't think they had one, but they had... I mean, granted, Stanton hasn't played that much, but on paper at least you had Stanton and Judge and Luke Voigt and a couple other guys. What was the big one that we had against the Red Sox? Was that 17 or 18? It was one of them where I felt like...

When Joe Kelly hit Tyler Austin, was that 17 or 18? Yeah, that was. That was 18. 18, okay. That was a good one, too. I felt like we were a little outgunned. You had multiple six foot. It was almost like you had drafted a team for the bench career brawl. It was like, yeah, we're going to bring in another six foot seven guy.

Yeah. And then you got Chappy. And then you got Dylan. You got me. And we added Luke Voigt. Yeah. Tough one. I had a question about when the NBA comes back,

what do you think those guys are going to do? I forgot to ask you this earlier from a protest standpoint. Is there going to be a protest? Do you even think it is valuable to send some sort of message before the games, for the first game, anything? Oh, 1,000%. Those guys are always at the forefront of everything. I mean, aside from Kaepernick, I think I expect 1000 percent for for all of those guys

to do something. You know, I don't know what I'm not calling for them to do something, but I just know they will. You know, they always have, you know, taken

that action and, you know, stepped up and being the leaders of, you know, social justice and getting things to change. And, you know, I don't think this time would be

any different. The breeze thing that happened this week, we should talk about quick. Because he even had teammates coming at him. And it was just an old school kind of disaster for a sports team and for him, obviously. But it's just such the timing of it was horrible. It was ugly.

And what does that do to a team? How do you heal from that? If you were on, let's say you're on the Saints and you want everybody to get past this. He apologized. You know, what are the next steps? Can you recover from something like that? I think you can recover, but that's rough. I mean, I think Drew has to realize that the America that he lived in and grew up in is different from the one that a lot of his teammates

and African-American players grew up in. You know what I mean? So it just comes off a little insensitive, I think. But I think you can get past it. Obviously, he's the leader of the team, and if he apologizes and guys know his character Obviously, he's the leader of the team, and if he apologizes and guys know his character and if he's sincere and he's willing to be educated, I don't think there's a reason why they can't get past it,

especially because they're not playing right now. If this was during the season, you know, it might be a little harder. But, you know, you got so much time to mend relationships and, you know, educate yourself and, you know, do better, really. I think they definitely can get past it. It's a tough situation. And that's what I was saying earlier, you know, like, that's why a lot of the times when things would happen in the past and I would be in the locker room, it's just best not to even bring it up or talk about it because we all grew up different places. We all have different

backgrounds. We all have different beliefs. But when we're in that locker room, it's all about trying to win and won. I mean, obviously some situations outweigh everything like this George Floyd and, you know, a lot of different situations outweigh, you know, not wanting to upset your teammate or make rumbles on the team. And I think this was one of them. And, you know, everybody's been speaking out and, you know, hopefully he been speaking out and, um, you know, hopefully he can just educate himself and, and, and those guys can get on the same page. But the fact that, you know, you had everybody going back at him, um, you know, just,

just let you know the climate of what's going on right now. Why do you think for three solid years, people have misunderstood the point of what Kaepernick was doing. I mean, it's 2020 and people are still getting wrong what the whole fucking point was. I think people wanted to make it about what they wanted to make it about.

And not what he was telling you it was about. He told us it was about police injustice. And this is what I'm taking a knee for. And everybody else made it into what they wanted to make it into. And now we're still sitting here looking at police and justice live on fucking tv every day and now everybody wants to i mean we just watched the cop take a knee on a black man's back after everybody got mad about kaepernick taking a knee like it's just symbolic of our country and what's like what's been going on and people not wanting to have the tough conversations and learn and educate themselves on what Black America goes through.

Have you ever talked to him? Cap? No, I've never talked to him. We have a couple of mutual friends, but I've never gotten a chance to really have a conversation with him, no. Well, what a moment where, I mean, Stephen Jackson, who i know a little bit i know you know him too but first i know jack well for him to emerge as you know one of one of the main voices here it's been pretty amazing to watch it's it's and it's right though i mean yeah he's he's always right on the mark with a lot of stuff that he says a lot of people don't agree with a lot of

shit that he says but he's not gonna tell lie, man. That guy's been through literally everything from backing up his teammates, going into the stands, to winning championships, to everything. Like he's been through everything as a, as a athlete, as a father, as a man off the field, like off the court, like he's just somebody I think everybody can look to and he's going to tell you the real. So him and Matt, I mean, that's why their show is so great. So, you know, I'm just excited for them and what they got coming up. But, you know, to see Steven Jackson be the voice and emerge as one of the voices of this, you know, of this movement is great. And it's just something that I think a lot of people can get behind because he is one of the voices. What do you think I should do with my platform over the next few weeks and months?

This. As much as you can. Have as many people as you can on here talking about, you know, these tough issues. Having conversations. You know, learning what we go through. And just kind of explaining that to your audience. And that's really all we can do. And just try to educate people,

inform people. And, you know, hopefully they, they, they can, you know, the minds that we need to change can get changed for sure.

All right. I, I want to say I could have gone four hours, but I want to save stuff because I hope we get to do this a couple more times over the next few months. So, yeah, for sure.

And I'm looking forward to it. This is great. Finally. Thank you. Yeah, for sure. I'm looking forward to it. This is great. Finally, thank you. Yeah, it's nice to finally do this. But I really appreciate you, and thanks for coming on. No problem. All right, thanks so much to CeCe. Thanks to ZipRecruiter.

Thanks to Campaign Zero. Don't forget about the 8 Can't Wait campaign. You can donate if you want. DeRay told me that they've gotten a lot of donations because they've done some you know some good promotion slash publicity of this new project that they have

and I think it's resonating with people and you heard him say in the podcast on Tuesday that they are low on resources so if you have the means and if you care about that go to campaign zero or check out the hashtag 8can'tWait and you can find out all about that. That's it for me.

Please enjoy the weekend. Please stay safe. And I'm not sure if I'm going to see you Sunday night or not, but I'll be back here in the next couple of days with some sort of podcast. So see you then.