The Bill Simmons Podcast - Celtics Chatter, Dan Patrick, and Pastor Carl Lentz (Ep. 284)

Episode Date: November 8, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons offers up his thoughts on the Celtics' win streak (5:00) and Kyrie Irving's newfound love of facilitating his teammates (10:00). Then Dan Patrick of 'The Dan Patrick Show' joins to discuss his role in BS's dismissal from ESPN (27:30), the problems with today's sports coverage (36:00), and Westbrook's situation in OKC (49:30). Then Hillsong pastor and NBA confidant Pastor Carl Lentz joins to lay out how secret NBA scrimmages come about in the summertime (1:08:20). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by SeatGeek, our presenting sponsor. Celtics fans, Wizards fans, Rocket fans, you all have good home games on Wednesday night or Thursday night. Guess what? For $20 off your first SeatGeek purchase on NBA tickets, use promo code BSNBA, download the SeatGeek app, or go right to SeatGeek.com. We're also brought to you by

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The podcast is free. I don't ask you for much. You can subscribe to our freaking YouTube channel. Coming up, we're going to have Dan Patrick, my old ESPN friend, and we're also going to have a piece of a podcast I did with Pastor Carl, Carl Lentz, which I'm going to explain later. We're running this whole Carl Lentz podcast on the Ringer MBA show, but we're running a piece of it on this podcast. But first, Pearl Jam. All right, so we have a good podcast. We have Dan Patrick coming up, my old ESPN friend, as well as Pastor Carl, Carl Lentz.

We're going to run a snippet of a great podcast we did. We ran the whole thing in the Ring Arm Bay Show, but a good 20-minute segment of it is coming up later. I wanted to talk about the Celtics. I have like, I don't know, 10 minutes of Celtics thoughts. There's a lot going on, and I have a podcast and a forum to talk about it. So I roped in Tate Frazier, who's producing this podcast. 10 minutes of Celtics thoughts. There's a lot going on. And I have a podcast and a forum to talk about it. So I roped in Tate Frazier, who's producing this podcast.

He's going to listen to me vent. Gush, vent? Gush. Definitely gush. And we should mention, we are relaunching your podcast with Mark Titus. That is right. It used to be called T-Dub. It used to be on the Ringer University podcast. The podcast formerly known as T-Dub now.

It's T-Dub. It was probably, nobody knew how to spell it, I think. Yeah, a lot of people thought it was a golf podcast. There's some spelling issues. Yeah, the T-Ds. A lot of apostrophes. People just aren't into apostrophes anymore. They just can't figure it out.

So we're relaunching it as? One Shining Podcast. What a name. What an incredible name. I feel like people are just going to, yeah, they're going to kill it at first, and I hope that they come full circle. No, they love it. They're going to love it.

One Shining Podcast, they're throwing themselves in this college basketball season in ways that, frankly, you're not going to believe. And also, talk about other stuff, too. Yeah, we have tons of interests. I think a lot of people think that we're very one-dimensional people, but we have layers. That's the whole point. We all have layers and we're going

to try to show some of ours and shed some of ours for the people and it'll be fun. I'm excited. Titus is excited. He really is. For the first time ever. One kid from the mean streets of North Carolina, the other kid from the mean streets of Indiana. We should hate each other. You should hate each other. Two basketball rivalries. He loves Hoosiers. I hate Hoosiers. So we're going to figure it out. One Shining Podcast. Subscribe now. All right. Celtics, let's talk.

They're playing the Lakers Wednesday night. So it's been really interesting because when Kyrie became available, I immediately was in disbelief and then just assumed somebody was going to give something awesome for him and then it became, the whole summer was about how polarizing he was

as a basketball player. My favorite team eventually became involved and people thought the Celtics gave up too much and just became, now it became, all right, we're going to see one way or the other. Is he good? Is he, is he, is he, can he be the best player on a really good team or is he just a really good player? It's like, we're going to find out. Does he have another level to go to? Well, we've already seen he has another level to go to. And it's a really fascinating basketball story because this guy did this over and over again on big stages in the finals against the best possible teams. And yet the perception was still, well, he's on LeBron's team. That's the only reason. You're an innocent bystander. And plus he went to Duke.

You have all these reasons not to let Kyrie Irving. It's kind of stupid that we thought he couldn't go up a level, right? He's only 25. Well, everyone, I think, thought that he had the cloak of LeBron to keep him sheltered from all of the criticism because LeBron's going to shoulder the brunt of that on his own. So therefore he was safe. Like he could just play basketball. And it turns out he did want to just play basketball he just wanted to be coached up and i think we've seen that he's made a lot of comments about stevens how he's like in a system now and he's trying to make him a better player you know he's trying to make it's the most i've ever seen kairi not be all scoring you know we've seen the whole uncle drew mantra where i have to get 40 points and that's what i am i'm a

scorer now he's doing the Durant thing whereas I want to make the extra pass I want to make the best basketball play because then I I you know then I'm the best version of myself as a basketball player which I think is cool I mean it's the first time we've seen him be the point guard he seems to take the onus on of being an actual facilitator and not just a scorer and it's funny because KD said this when we did the last podcast with him he said that, he's like me. He just wants to play ball. I think I even, you know, I came around on Kyrie.

I was not a fan in the early years and kind of came around really the last Grantland year. So whatever, the 2014-15 season. But I assumed when he went to Boston, I thought he was going to basically, I bet on him in the scoring title. I was 21. I thought he would take all the Isaiah shots Isaiah took and probably be a little bit better at them because he's a little more efficient.

And the shots are there and he doesn't want them. He wants to just make a good basketball play every time. And I keep watching and waiting for him to go into Gunnar Kai Remo. Yeah, revert back to his old ways. Everyone wanted him to be the next Kobe. Yeah, and he has no interest. He's already gotten so much better at, you know, his big weakness coming into this season was driving into the lane and kicking out to the corners and making really creative passes into the corners. And people were like, he's not good at that. You can already see he's worked on that and he's better at it. And he watched the guy who feeds off that, LeBron James, do it right in person. And that's what he does. He goes in the lanes of driving kick offense.

I mean, people spread out. And now he's got guys like Tatum. I mean, Tatum's another one. It's just like if he's hitting threes and hitting shots, it's unbelievable. So Atlanta did something. I've watched way more Celtics than I thought after the most expensive player in the team broke his ankle in five minutes into the season. Just assume there was going to be a black card.

Somehow he's still in the gym putting up shots more than most players. He's worried. He wants to get his job back. Tatum and Hayward. He's got a bunch of guys going to his position. And Semmy's looking like poor man's Draymond. But last night against Atlanta was interesting because Atlanta's a well-coached

team that's not very good. They played well against Cleveland. I actually watched that game. People were like, oh, my God, Cleveland, how bad are they? I was like, Atlanta actually played well. And then the next night against Boston, same thing. They played well. And I was talking to my dad after saying, basically,

if the Celtics lost that game in Atlanta, I wouldn't have been mad about it because Atlanta just played really hard and made good shots. The Celtics didn't play bad. Last five minutes, they start double teaming Kyrie on high screens and stuff. And basically they're forcing other people to make shots. Get the ball out of his hands. Isaiah, as much as I love him, the biggest flaw when teams did that in his game was he would shoot anyway. His mentality was just, he just wanted to score.

And it's like, well, you're doing that. I'm still gonna, I'm still gonna try to score. And a lot of times he would make them. Yeah. Mr. Fourth quarter. Yeah. That's why he was Mr. Fourth quarter. Yeah. But it was also the other guys weren't as involved. And when it got to the playoffs and it got to the point where really good teams now are doing that, the other guys have to be involved. Kyrie,rie was fascinating last night. He almost always made the right basketball play. He's really, really intelligent. I watched him on Cleveland.

I always thought it was lurking in there somewhere, but I've been surprised by over and over again, he makes the correct choice. And they were doing this. He was trying to figure it out. He eventually figured out, I'll get Horford some shots. I'll find Tatum in the corner. I'm going to take it myself.

And then there was one play at the tail end of the game when he basically, he was going to go one-on-one. Atlanta defended it beautifully. He had to reset on the left side with like nine seconds left. And a lot of times, this is where you see guys go, like Westbrook guys, they just go one-on-one and they're going to jack up either a long two or three. And he's so patient.

He was just like, I'm going to wait. All right, I'm going to put my back into the guy. All right, now I'm going to curl over. And then he gets to the foul line and somehow gets a wide open 14-footer. It was amazing. Like, I really think I underestimated how good he was and now i'm probably jinxing it right now he's probably gonna like pull his hamstring tonight but i i'm just really impressed

by how smart of a basketball player and everyone talks about like the killer like it's a fourth quarter who who do you want to take the big shot or who's your guy in that moment and carmelo's a guy that's always been there that can hit the shot and people give lebron crap for not being that guy and kairi hit the biggest shot obviously we all know that but Kyrie's always had that he's very even keeled at all times he never seems overwhelmed by any moment and when you know I heard in 2010 when he was coming out everyone was like we know he's naturally gifted but we don't know how much he really cares you know yeah he has no reason like you know shit you heard that last year he grew up in Australia I mean the guy seems like to have a nice life we don't know how much he really wants it but i honestly think the lebron situation lit another fire underneath him

you know he's like oh all these people think that i'm doing it because of him i'm gonna do it for me like i'm gonna show you it's a great point and it's completely flipped the other way and i think it's i mean it's been great for him there's two different fires one was the fire of he clearly just didn't like being lebrron's sidekick. Of course. And felt like he had more to offer. He's like, I'm not Robin. Yeah. He's like, I'm actually, I should be the best player in a really good team.

I know I have this in me. And people were like, you're crazy. That's ridiculous. LeBron's made seven straight finals. What were you in 2014 before he came back, basically? Right. He could have gone to Phoenix and shut that that down which i know for a fact now phoenix was ready to do four and josh jackson i knew that they were ready to do it but i didn't

know that kairi side once they got a whiff of boston they shut it down he's got all these boston ties all this stuff but um he really wanted to prove that he could do this i think stevens i i think there's going to be a story and i'll probably be written by lee jenkins because he's the go-to guy for these stories there's going to be a story, and it'll probably be written by Lee Jenkins because he's the go-to guy for these stories. There's going to be a story in the next eight weeks written by somebody. And Kyrie's going to spell this out. And he's going to be like, I just wasn't challenged as a basketball player. It wasn't fun for me to play on LeBron's team. I know that's heresy to say that.

But I want to be in an offense where everything moves and people are making the right choices, and it's really hard to do that when you're playing with one of the three best basketball players of all time and everything has to run through him. I think LeBron would be a weirdly hard guy to play with. And I think he's become now the poster boy. That was almost, like you said, it was heresy. You couldn't say that. Like in Miami, everyone was like, look at LeBron.

Look what he's done to this team. Look at Mike Miller. Look at all these guys he's made so much better around him. Look at Haslam. Everyone wants, look at LeBron. Look what he's done to this team. Look at Mike Miller. Look at all these guys he's made so much better around him. Look at Haslam. Everyone wants to play with LeBron. That was always the myth. And now that Kyrie has gone the exact opposite way, I don't want to play with the greatest player of all time.

It's changed everything. Because what's the thing with LeBron? It's not only can he score and dominate a game, but he's going to pass and get you involved and make you better. But now Kyrie's saying he didn't make me better. Kyrie's like, I don't need anyone to make you better. But now Kyrie's saying he didn't make me better. Kyrie's like, I don't need anyone to make me better. I'm already awesome.

It's too bad for LeBron. Yes. Because you watch the Cavs team now, and he's having an unbelievable season so far. He's like 29, 9, and 7. He's shooting 60%. They're still losing. And you just have all these guys that don't really fit in with that team, and you realize

that's where Kyrie really helps, because defensively, they weren't going to be good anyway, but offensively, whole other level. There were a couple moments in the season already so far, we're only like 11 games in, they're playing the Lakers tonight, which is why I wanted to bring this up, but in OKC, last year OKC beat the Celtics twice.

And each time Westbrook just went to a level that nobody on the court could go to. I love Isaiah. Isaiah's amazing. He's missed our fourth quarter. But there was a slight level difference between those two guys in the last five minutes where it's like, Jesus, Westbrook. There's goodness and there's greatness. Yeah.

I would say Isaiah is very, very good and then had a couple stretches where he was borderline great last year. Westbrook, when he gets going, it's like, oh, my God, that guy's amazing. And you almost need another, oh, my God, that guy's amazing to counter Westbrook. And in the OKC game, it was like Kyrie just was like, all right, I'm the best part of the court tonight. It's really hard to say that when you're on a court with Russell Westbrook, but he has that in him. And I think the two revelations this season have been him and Porzingis. Porzingis is another guy that in any basketball game,

he might just be the best part in the court. It doesn't matter who else is on the court. So I think for the Celtics, there were injury and salary reasons why they made that trade. Isaiah, a free agent a year, who knows if he's healthy. There are all these different things that go into it. But Isaiah is not as good of an all-around point guard as Kyrie is. I don't care what the stats are. I'm just talking about how Kyrie runs the team. And I'll be really interested to see if he continues. Is he he gonna play like this for 100 games

or is he just proving this is he eventually gonna turn into more of a gunner or is this who he is week after week my bet is that this is who he is what happened yeah the main thing now is like what happens when he gets the credit because right now he's playing deep he's not getting any credit for how great he's playing on defense too he's getting in the basketball twitter in the basketball world but still our community the narrative is out there like and it probably will be for a while that he is not a defensive player but what happens when that flips in february march and people are like oh carver he's a legit point guard and yeah he may be the best point guard in the league i would say i don't know what the list is of the best guys in the league but i think he has to be on it yeah i think they're

i don't i'm not saying he's the best, but whatever list he's on, and it's like, who would you want in a big game? He's got to be on it. It's three. It's Curry, it's Westbrook, and Kyrie, I would say. For point guards? I personally believe that. I think that's been the case.

I mean, as far as the stages that they've all been on in their careers and what they can offer in any situation. And you're talking about, yeah, three totally different point guards, right? Yeah, they're not the same breed of point guard. They are at the position, the guy that's going to start at the one and the guy that's going to have a ball in his hand. They're going to do it differently, but the three guys that I trust

are those three across the board. Kyrie's the best at – Kyrie probably needs the ball in his hands the most from a facilitator standpoint. Westbrook just wants the ball. And Curry's actually great at kind of – sometimes he has it, sometimes he doesn't. He's the greatest decoy in all sports. The space he creates.

Yes. I would say that's the top three. I don't think John Wall, as much as I like John Wall, I think he's a notch below. That hurts me not to say that. I said last year he was the best point guard in basketball, in my opinion, pure point guard. But I think as far as what it is now and what position has turned into, it's not the same thing as what Chris Paul was as a point guard. Now we've seen the varying degrees of it kairi had this one play in the okc game when uh to close the game he's on the foul line he was like doing the between the

leg stuff i think he had adams on him and it was like he just all of a sudden he was laying it in he had the he pressed the b button but i i just think uh as weird as this sounds that was a great trade for the nba because oh it's i didn't really fully realize kyrie needed his own team now it could have been boston i think it easily could have been phoenix like wherever he was gonna go i don't know if it would have happened in the same way in phoenix obviously because of brad stevens he's really good with horford already he's great at playing off on them and doing these little and horford just a smart basketball player yeah and that's the thing that people underestimated with the situation in cleveland is like most of those guys are built to help lebron james right al horford is there he he can you know he

can take his game into the direction with kairi and figure out a way to help him get better and be better on the court which is like he didn't have that in Cleveland. So the Hayward injury, the first time it bummed me out since it happened was the, uh, the last five minutes of the Atlanta game. Cause when they were double teaming them, it's like, there's just no way you could do that. If Hayward's on there. Yeah. If you double team him with Horford and Hayward on the court and with two guys in the corners, you're that's a suicide mission and they don't tatum's gonna eventually have to be the guy who has to create when oh my guy's guarding kairi i'm going to the basket or whatever and i think he'll get there but uh i really think like this team

defensively they're you know they're just a different team than they were last year they're so much longer yeah and and uh they can just switch on everything. Tatum's a better defensive player than I thought. The stats back it up. They're by far the best. I think they're giving up 94.5 points a game. Yeah, it's been pretty – I mean, I've watched them play, and I thought Bradley.

I still love Bradley. Also, I'll just say the Pistons are so fun to watch. People that haven't watched the Pistons, they've been great defensively. Without Bradley, I thought they would take a step back, but Kyrie's taken it all on himself. You see what's wrong with Cleveland. Cleveland, the other teams going into Tuesday night, other teams are shooting, I think, 42% from three.

And against the Celtics, it's 32%. And that's like effort. That's effort and length and having the right guys and just constantly making sure nobody's feels totally comfortable when they're shooting threes in cleveland anybody can get an open three because they're not they're not moving and they're getting the best shots of teams still because they deserve it because they have lebron james and like that's just that comes with the territory of the situation and it seems like they're unprepared for the fact that teams want

to beat them you know it's like of course of course the pelicans want to beat the hell out of you like you know or the you know whoever it is like, of course, of course the Pelicans want to beat the hell out of you. Like, you know, or whoever it is. Like, you're LeBron James. You're the class of the East. We want to knock you off. And the Celtics, that's going to be the next step for them. Yeah.

Targets on their back when it flips. They play Golden State. They play the Lakers tonight. And like three games from now, they play four games and then the Warriors. And there's a chance they could have a 13-game winning streak or a 14-game winning streak going into that Warriors game. But there's going to be a point where this is a whole other level, and now you're counting on Jason Tatum on TNT against the Warriors.

He's 19 years old. Yeah, and Klay Thompson guarding him. And Klay Thompson guarding him. But he made the dagger three in the Atlanta game, but it's Atlanta. It's Monday night. It's not even on NBA TV. you know, he made the biggest, he made the dagger three in the Atlanta game, but it's Atlanta, it's Monday night. It's not even on NBA TV. It's a little different when that spotlight's on the TNT game or even like a Lakers game on ESPN.

I want to see how they respond to that. But man, this is an amazing, I thought when Horford went down, I thought they were a 45 win team, max. And now I think they can win the East. Don't you think this is one of the cases too, that if it plays out like it is right now, Stevens is, just because of the Hayward situation,

like he becomes like at the top of the coach of the year list. No question. It also made me think last year's coaching job was amazing. Yeah. Because look at the guys on last year's team. Kyrie's a better all around guard than Isaiah is. Jalen Brown's a year older older horford's healthier this year tatum is really unlike anyone they had on last year's team even somebody like semi when he comes in is just better than jay crowder jay crowder was a three

and d guy who his d wasn't that good and his three was even worse yeah and last year he made threes for a few months. But Baines, you're going down the line, it's like they're just kind of better all over the place. And the team makes more sense. They get rebounds now. They get some offensive boards. I'm fascinated to see how it plays out. And I still think there's a chance Hayward is back.

I mean, if you don't think you're coming back this year at some point, why are you posting Instagram videos of you shooting? And why is Danny Ainge tweeting it out to the world that you are doing that? You keep that in-house if there's no hope there, I think. There's hope. I don't think they want to say

it. They want to put no pressure whatsoever on the guy and they shouldn't. But as I said last week, I think there's hope. Alright. The Celtics. Now watch them lose to the Lakers tonight. I should mention, when you watch Lonzo tonight, if you haven't seen him yet, it worries me that he doesn't dribble that well

and that he doesn't have the ball in his hands and he doesn't seem to like having the ball in his hands that much and he's hot potatoes it a little bit. I know he's a rookie and I know he's 19 years old but i don't know man you go through any of the great point guards when they were that age the ball was like a magnet like jason kidd wasn't getting rid of the ball when he was 19 even when he played at cal he's that was his ball and when he gets pressured and we saw in college he's he's not going to face it. Honestly, what I would do if I was Luke Walton, I would tell him,

I would have him in practice get pressed and have people steal the ball from him. I think a lot of us, you don't want to get embarrassed. You want to look cool. And you know that if you get stripped, it's going to be all over the place. That Dennis Smith Jr. stripped you or Kyrie Irving stripped you. Some of that, it's just like, you got to get over it, man. You're going to look stupid sometimes. I mean, Brandon Knight got dunked on by DeAndre Jordan worse than anyone in the world. I mean, he got over it. I mean, things happen on the court. You're got to get over it man you're gonna look stupid sometimes i mean brandon knight got dunked on by deandre jordan worse than anyone in the world i mean he got over it i mean things happen on the court you're gonna get made fun of he needs to get over that mental

i think there's a lot of it's mental because i think he does have the skills there to handle the ball he just doesn't want to get embarrassed and it's i mean i understand that with his situation maybe it's weird or maybe he just doesn't have a great handle. I've never seen such a gifted passer so willing to just not have the ball. It's bizarre. Yes. And it's not like this is an overreaction to 11 games as a rookie because this is what he did at UCLA too, and it was a real head-scratcher. That's why Summer League, yeah, of course he looks good at Summer League.

Nobody's going to try to take the ball from him in Summer League. It's not that serious. It's a different level of competition. All right. We'll see tonight. I'm excited. That Lakers team, what's interesting is there's really only three bad teams, and the Lakers are not one of the three bad teams.

Dallas is horrible. Yep. Sacramento is horrible. And Chicago is like maybe historically horrible. Yeah. I looked at their stats. Do you think Phoenix is in that list? Or maybe they're a step above? Sacramento is horrible. And Chicago is like maybe historically horrible. I looked at their stats. Do you think Phoenix is in that list? Or maybe they're a step above?

I don't know. Phoenix somehow has four wins. And they just added Greg Monroe, who actually might help them. I don't know. They have shooting. I wouldn't put them on that list. I think they're on the next list. There's like eight teams. One step up.

Yeah. There's a team like Atlanta or Brooklyn or the Lakers. You go on down the line, they could kind of hang with anybody on any given night. They're not bad yet, but you see in January sometimes that. It's like January, February, the guys start turning on each other. Malcolm Delaney's playing 42 minutes, 44 minutes and everything. Yeah, I don't know how Atlanta's even confident. Brooklyn's another one.

Brooklyn's always in these games. Everybody's shooting 33s a game. It's much harder to suck now. Yeah. Cause you can make up for it. Dan Patrick's coming up in one second. First, the message from Hotel Tonight. If you're like me and you're not so great at planning ahead, I've got some good news for you. There's an awesome app called Hotel Tonight that helps you find amazing hotel deals at the last minute. Unlike flights, hotel rates usually get cheaper at the last minute. Hotel Tonight helps hotels sell their unsold rooms, allowing them to pass those deals along to you. Not for last resort places, but for cool, top-rated hotels. Tate, are you going to use Hotel Tonight now that your girlfriend lives in LA? Absolutely. A little staycation. Hotel Tonight's great. You should use it. You could

actually book a room with Hotel Tonight up to seven days in advance or even 100 days in advance in certain cities, major cities. With Hotel Tonight, you'll bag a sweet deal at a killer hotel. Whether you need a room for today, for Thanksgiving week, or whatever, you will definitely want to download the Hotel Tonight app. So coming up, Dan Patrick, who I've known for 20 years, my buddy Gus, who we're going to talk about when Dan and I talk here, worked at ESPN.

I went in the first year I had my old website, the Boston Sports Guy website. I went in to do a piece about what it was like for them to do a sports center. It was like the ninth piece I wrote, summer of 97. And when I was there, I actually interviewed Dan Patrick and for a separate piece. And I was super nervous. Of course, like, Oh my God, it's Dan Patrick. I was like, my hands were practically shaking. And, uh, it's just funny that 20 years later, um, he had a little bit to do with, uh,

with, with my departure at ESPN, which we're going to talk about. But it's a thrill to talk to him all these years later. I love what he's doing with Full Sail. So here he is, Dan Patrick. All right, on the line right now from Connecticut. He never left. He couldn't leave. Dan Patrick, how are you?

I'm good. I didn't try to leave, but now you're making me feel guilty that maybe I should have left. Well, there is a lot of Kool-Aid in Connecticut. Sometimes you drink it, you get used to it, you just like it. It's nice and comfortable. Yeah, yeah. You know what? I wanted to be a little, I wanted to stay close to ESPN. I didn't want to get too close, but I wanted to stay close enough. Shouting distance. Let's talk about that really quickly. What do you want to talk about first? I'll let you decide. You pick.

What topic do you want to hit first? What role did I play in your departure? Oh, good question. I think slightly more significant than people realize because, and it wasn't your fault, but I went on your show to promote the Grantland Basketball Hour, which we had that night. And I don't think I told them I was going on because I had been on another time and it was, I just assumed like I had gotten the pass. But then when we did that interview, which I thought was, was harmless. You asked me that question about Goodell and I made the Mick Foley joke about the testicular fortitude. And if you actually listened to it, it was fine. But in print, it looked worse worse and you know how espn goes like email gets

especially when people are trying to undermine you the the stuff goes in print people send it you know start forwarding it the email goes up up up up and people just see what the words were because this had happened to me before where people don't even listen to the context of it or whether people were joking or whatever and they just just see the letters. And, uh, and I, and I do think that was part of it. Why, what do you think? Well, I remember you saying, we said to you, Hey, we'll call and get permission because we always had to call the mothership and get permission. And you said, don't bother. And then I thought, okay, maybe you got a bombshell you're going to drop here. And I went, all right, great.

Hey, great for me. It's content. And then, you know, we realized after the fact that it was going to be a little bit worse than we thought. And we had talked privately prior to that because I said, you're going to realize who's on your side and who's not. Yes. And that number is going to dwindle rapidly when people realize, you know, there's only so much room in the raft there. Yeah. I called you when I got suspended for three weeks, I called you because I felt like I talked to you. I talked to Coronizer. I talked to a couple of people who had kind of, for lack of a better phrase,

fallen out of favor. And, and basically you were the best test case for it because near the end, I remembered. I remembered hearing the stories about, oh, Dan, oh my God, Dan Patrick, he's such a pain in the ass. And I was like, I'm positive he's not a pain in the ass. Like I know Dan Patrick. I have friends with people who are friends with Dan Patrick.

So that kind of raised my suspicions that they were really undermining you the last year. And I was like, is that going to happen to me? And I called you and we talked it through. And what was amazing was every single thing you told me was going to happen, happened. Like, like to a T, right down the line. And it's funny because I've talked to Jamel Hill the last, like talked to her a few weeks ago and not to talk out of school, but it was just like, here's what happened to me. And I think a lot of things that happened to her were pretty similar, right? She might be the next version of you.

Yeah. I hope not. Because I think they need her. And I think that platform is important for specifically her and somebody like her, you know. But I think I agree. The the way they didn't stand by her just felt felt pretty familiar. And, you know, I think they get caught up in that whole he thinks he's bigger than the place or she thinks she's bigger than the place and stuff like that. And they don't really, you know, you do that out of fear and out of basically not having your own house in order. And I think what we've seen this year with ESPN is that the house just doesn't seem in order.

The things that are happening are just so haphazard and, you know, pretty predictable with how some of this stuff plays out. How do you feel watching it from afar? I don't get involved in it as much as I did, Bill. I think that I always wanted to. I was trying to beat them, even though I knew I couldn't beat them. I loved having a rival, an opponent, even though they were this conglomerate. They were a multi-billion dollar business. But I loved that there was this animosity or friction, or I kept it going.

But finally, the Danettes, they said, you know, you've got to move on. My wife said, you've got to move on. But they didn't understand that I thought it made me and us better. You know, at the time, it was probably one of those that gave you energy, but it takes away energy as well. And at the time, I didn't realize that I was the old Red Sox and they were the Yankees, and I wasn't beating them. But all I wanted was, give me four at-bats.

That's all I wanted. But I've actually worked at improving the relationship with the people that I really cared about, and that's all I wanted to try to do in this situation. Yeah, I felt a lot of that last year. I felt very us against them, especially because of some of the stuff they did after I left and, you know, trying to block me from hiring certain people. And just it was definitely contemptuous.

Like, there's no question. But now I don't care. And I actually, you know, I have a lot of friends that still work there. And I've gotten to the point where I actually, it's OK if ESPN does well. I really don't care. But what's been weird to watch is just the lack of kind of an overall plan. Just things happening. I just wanted to be proud of where I spent

18 years. That, I think, was... I wanted them to be professional. And I even said this to John Skipper. I said, John, look, I'm gone. I know it. You guys are better off without me, but I want to be proud of where I work. So let's not make this worse than what it's been and move on. I remember one of the most humbling things that ever happened to me was I was on the verge of resigning and the guy was going to resign. He said, you know,

you really need to apologize to the people who work on the six o'clock sports center with you. And I go about what they said, well, you, you haven't been a fun to deal with. You're, you're really tough to deal with there. And I went, wait, who's upset? Right. And so he named names. I went down right after the meeting, and I apologized to three people,

and they looked at me like I was crazy. And I went, what is, like, where is this originating from? It feels like from top down to bottom, not bottom up to top. And then I went, oh boy, this is far deeper than what I ever thought it was going to be. And then I realized, you know, there was, there was a play, something was in play. And, uh, I, I knew that my days were numbered. Yeah. There's a lot of undermining that goes on, but I, I felt the same way you did. I remember the last, you know, when I had like six months to go on my contract and I was almost positive I was leaving. And I really did want to leave on good terms. Like it meant a lot to me to at least be remembered in a positive way. And I remember I went to John Walsh had like his farewell retirement dinner in Connecticut. I flew back for that. I did PTI one last time. I asked to see Iger

in April and went, cause Iger had always been a big champion of Grantland. I went and, and, uh, and spend an hour with him in his office. And I actually think that might've been part of the reason I got in trouble again, because I think he'd, he was pretty clear. Like when you bring up this Goodell stuff, you know, it just causes all these different things. But, you know, I felt the same way probably you did, that, oh, man, this is coming to an end. Can I at least leave on good terms and be remembered properly?

And, you know, obviously the opposite happened. It's depressing. But at the same time, you know, time passes, you don't care. We'll go back together as a package deal if it ever happens. Sorry. Old guy PTI. I wanted to do PTI one time. I wanted to.

And then I think they looked at me like I was crazy. I said, no, no, I'll be on Around the Horn. Let me do these before I leave. And then that, of course, wasn't going to happen. I'd love to do a PTI with you. How long have you done that radio show? Like going back to ESPN. Are you at like 20 years?

Probably, right, it's 19 years. Okay. Nine years there, and now I've been out with uh 10 years so i'm guessing the biggest things that have changed are you're getting a lot of the show topics from things that are happening on social media and especially twitter that are basically starting to shape your show as you're doing it right well you know the danettes monitor twitter pretty well so we're seeing what is being said in the moment. Is it something that you can bring up?

There's different ways to incorporate content, and that's what's fun about it now. You know, something can be said, something can be written, something can be tweeted, and that can be a segment. That can be a guest. That can be two segments, and that's what's fun. Because I got at the end of the day, it's three hours. What is the content that you want that represents you, that you want your audience to consume? That's the fun part of it is when I was at the mothership,

I felt like I had to, you know, check all the boxes there of all the ESPN properties, entities, and that wasn't necessarily what I wanted to talk about. So this reincarnation of the show is about what I want to talk about with people I want to talk to and in sort of the tone that I want to talk to the audience to. And that's what's been different than beneficial. Do you like where some of these trends are with sports coverage are going? It's too loose for me, Bill. I think we get to this, somebody tweets out something, and then, you know, I think we're lacking in veracity here. I think that, you know, I was fortunate when I was there that we had some of the great journalist people

who were getting stories the right way, breaking news. I worked at CNN, so I had learned through CNN for five years. And then I get to the mothership, and I got to work with Bob Lee. You had Chris Mortensen and Peter Gammons in there. I mean, I'm very fortunate to be around people who could follow a story, write a story, break a story. Nowadays, I get a little nervous that we're pretty loose and everybody's got to be the first and not necessarily the first one to be right, just be the first person. How has the whole podcast genre affected what you do with the show?

Have you ever thought about tweaking it or having one interview that lasts for 50 minutes and you use 10 for the show and then expand it or taking having one interview that lasts for 50 minutes and you use 10 for the show and then expand it or any of that stuff well we don't tape much it's probably 99 percent live yeah if i was going to do something like howard stern does where you could bring in a guest i had will ferrell today for 45 minutes yeah um. But he's an exception, whereas if I was doing a radio show where I was taping an interview, I might do 10 minutes, but then you could do. But I always feel like if it's worthy of 45 minutes on a podcast, then isn't it 45 minutes worthy on the radio show?

If it's really good is the way I kind of approach it. But every interview is, can I do 10 minutes? Can I get enough out of 10 minutes? And have I sort of exhausted everything I need to get to? You know, I just don't want it to be going time-wise just because it has to go time-wise for a podcast as opposed to, I'm going to get, you know, 13 minutes in here with Reggie Miller. I'm going to get to everything I need to get today.

So I don't think it's changed in how I approach the interview, but if I did a sports format of Howard Stern's, I would bring in one big guest every day and do 50 minutes, 45 minutes. But that would be tough to do in Connecticut, right? You would have to probably go to either New York or L.A. to just be able to grab guests easier, I'm guessing, right? Well, I find, and it used to be I thought that I got more out of somebody over the phone. Yeah.

And the Danettes disagree. They're like, no, in person you're going to get so much more out of it, because I thought that I could get you to forget that you were being interviewed over the phone as opposed to sitting in front of me with cameras on you. But it's been the opposite. You know, I got more out of people who are sitting next to me as opposed to being over the phone. And it didn't used to be that way. I remember Kevin Garnett visited Reggie Miller one time and Reg said, hold on, Kevin Garnett's here during the interview. And Kevin came in, and I said to Reg, let me talk to Kevin, because Kevin was talking in the background. He picks it up. The next thing I know, he starts cursing.

And then I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't do that. He goes, oh, kids, don't use that kind of language. And it was just one of those live in in the moment uh and that's what made it special made it something fun uh that probably wouldn't have been able to do if uh you know they were in person because kevin would have known he was going to be on tv so you you do have a mix but uh i i i like it when somebody's in in the studio you can push them a little more i'm uh hitting my late 40s and i'm having more and more of those get off my lawn moments. What is your number one get off my lawn back in my day corner thing that you find

yourself saying to the younger people that work for you? It's probably how we cover sports, I think. I just know there's a right way and a wrong way and somewhere in between. And it feels like the in-between is getting towards the wrong way. Yeah. I think, you know, because people want to get in the business. And, you know, that's why I started this sportscasting school. I I want you at least to understand what it is. It's a crazy business. I don't encourage people to go into it. but if you do want to, then I will certainly give you advice. And I found so many of these kids graduating from college and they

weren't ready to be in the industry. They hadn't even had an internship, anything. And then they wanted to do this. And I said, oh my gosh, you're so far behind. That's what I would like to do is that people understand the standards of what you have to do, be able to write, have sources, be able to report. I remember there was a guy I worked with at the mothership who said to Keith Olbermann and I, how do you develop sources? And we looked at him like, are you kidding me? And he wasn't kidding. He didn't know how to develop a source.

So those are the, you know, hey, in my day, this is how we did it. I still do that because I still think that there's, there's room for that. There's a need for that. I think my number one thing is getting mad that people dismiss. Yeah. I mean, this is basically what I wrote my book about. So I knew this was going to happen, but I've found it, especially when I get older is as I I get older, is people just kind of dismissing the great players from 20, 30 years ago. Like, especially like the Bird Magic, just that those guys are, like, people think LeBron is as good of a passer as Bird Magic was.

And I think LeBron is probably one of the eight best passers of all time. But that Bird and Magic were at the highest level. I mean, the things they saw, the vision they had, how unselfish they were, it was just unlike anything. And as great as LeBron is, he's 10% not what those two guys were, just the way they saw the court and how desperately they wanted to make the pass

and how infectious they were. That was my big hope for Lonzo, who I'm starting to get seriously concerned about, but there was an infectiousness with his passing and how unselfish he was. And you could kind of see it spill over to the other players. I've never seen anybody like Bird of Magic with that, where everybody in the team was thinking that way. And I think it does count with LeBron a little bit that these teams that he's been on over and over again are teams that are very dependent on him and what he's doing. And I don't know if he's infectious like that. Even the way Kyrie is playing in Boston now,

all we heard all summer was Kyrie, oh, well, watch Kyrie without LeBron. Look at his stats without LeBron. And oh, there's no other level for him to get to., there's nothing, no other level for him to get to. And actually, there really was another level for him to get to. And I think he saw it, and I think he really wanted it. I think he wanted to become a much better all-around player. And it didn't happen with LeBron.

I think that does count for something, right? Well, I also got into this where there'd be times when you would say, you know, I remember going to the Cincinnati Royals and watching Nate Archibald play, and then you could just see people's eyes rolling like, oh, boy, here we go. And, you know, so people talk about Manu Ginobili, and he said the greatest left-handed player I ever saw who went left every time,

and you knew he was going left every time and was maybe 5'10 was Nate Archibald who led the league in scoring and assist in the same year for a last place team yeah and and you're trying to tell them that because we look at somebody and you go back all the way to the 90s you know boy I'm going all the way back to the 90s to talk about this reference and I'll go you can go back to the late 60s early 70, boy, I'm going all the way back to the 90s to talk about this reference, and I'll go, you can go back to the late 60s, early 70s. You know, I got to see Will Chamberlain play. I got to see Oscar play.

Bob Cousy play in his last year. And you're trying to give reference points here. That can be discouraging sometimes, because they'll tune you out where you go, well, you know, Cam's the best athlete I've ever seen at quarterback, and I go, do you ever see John Elway? John Elway was every bit the athlete.

Yeah, they were every bit the athlete, but we get caught up in this. It's all about today. So I understand that. I fight those fights, but then I realize sometimes it's a moot point that they just roll their eyes with you. Yeah, I think with Jordan and LeBron, we're going to definitely – like LeBron's having the best year 15 season anyone's ever had by far. I mean, he's probably having – it's early,

but he's on pace for the best statistical season of his career. He's adding – still adding stuff to his game. This is uncharted territory. We had, I think, in the mid-80s – Don't you think, though? Yeah. He's looking to maybe find the- He can't match Jordan championship-wise,

but he can give you a different argument to the best player that we've ever seen if he would go to the Lakers or another place and take another team to a title. So you do it in Cleveland, you do it in Miami, and if he somehow would go to the Lakers with Paul George and they would be able to win a championship. Now, LeBron is at least giving you a different argument because if it's straight up, he's not going to win that. But this gives you something that Jordan obviously didn't do. Yeah. He has a chance to have the best career of all time, which I actually think unless he gets hurt,

that's going to happen. We'll look at him and be like, wow, 20 years of LeBron was greater than anything we've ever seen. I think what he's not going to get and what probably drives him crazy is Jordan, you know, his ceiling was just a tiny bit higher

compared to the other players when he played where it was like nobody, you know, you look at like the 93 finals or 97, 98, like we left those finals going, wow, that is the greatest pour we've ever seen. And I don't know if that moment has happened with LeBron. You know, there's always been a but with him. Well, he's unbelievable, but,

and there's always like this counter. And we hit a point with Jordan where that was it. We all agreed, everybody, Bill Russell, Red Auer Jordan where that was it. We all agreed. Everybody. Bill Russell, Red Auerbach, you name it. Even the old guys who were beholden to the guys from the 60s and 70s. They were like, Jordan's the best. So I don't know how he tops that. I think you're onto something, though, with if he can go to the third team.

See, I've started to think after this past weekend watching Porzingis, I'm starting to wonder if the Knicks aren't the move for him i know his kids are already in school in la and it's i think it's probably already done but imagine if he went to the knicks with poor zingas and they added a couple other pieces and he won the title with the knicks i know they don't have the same cap space they probably have to frame joe keem noah for a murder or something to get him off the cap. But, but the, the Knicks is almost like, if he goes to the Lakers, it feels, you know, they've been tanking for five years to have the cap space. It seems a little easier, but imagine going to the Knicks.

I mean, winning a title with the Knicks. And now that the Cubs have won the world series, I would think that's, is there a greater achievement in sports at this point? Well, given where the Knicks, now that the Cubs have won the World Series, I would think that's, is there a greater achievement in sports at this point? Well, given where the Knicks are, and if he would somehow resurrect them, and it's still the greatest building ever, and with apologies to Bostonians, and of course I was there when the Lakers played in the Garden against Larry, the Madison Square Garden is still the greatest arena, ambiance-wise,

I've ever been in when it comes to a big moment, a big game. And imagine if he brought that back to life. And the fact that you just have so many dead bodies there in New York that can you clean up all of the carnage there and somehow make it look nice here with Porzingis and who? I mean, it's tough. And then is Hornacek going to be your coach? And what kind of

offense are you running? And all that nonsense. If you get LeBron there, then you can get a free agent. As it is now, when's the last time a free agent said, a great free agent, I'm strongly considering the Knicks. That's the telltale sign. They can't get anybody that wants to go there and play. Yeah, Durant wouldn't even have a meeting agent. I'm strongly considering the Knicks. That's the telltale sign. They can't get anybody that wants to go there and play.

Yeah, Durant wouldn't even have a meeting there. I think these players are so conscious now of how well a team is run and who the owner is and who the front office is. They really look at that stuff now. They think of it more like businessmen than just like, oh, New York City, it'll be fun to play there. Nobody thinks that way anymore. People really look at the stability,

who runs a team, like the Celtics who couldn't get a free agent for 30 years. They get Al Horford and Gordon Hayward in back-to-back years because they're really well-run and they have a really good coach. That's a game-changer. I think Oklahoma City, did you think Oklahoma City,

because of how they're run and their GM and that fan base, that Paul George going there, I really think that Westbrook will earn the MVP this year if he can somehow convince Paul George to stay. Yeah, not happening. Not shoot as much, right? But that's going to be the hard, if he says, hey, this is how it's going to be, you know, Melo eventually fade away,

but you and me, we're together here in this. That might be the greatest thing he does for that franchise. I'd be very surprised if it played out that way. We'll see. I just think Westbrook's really hard to play with, you know? And there's a chance that... Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a chance that

his best scenario is what we saw last year when it's just basically he's the show. You even saw it on Sunday night they played I forget who they were playing. Oh, Portland. They lost. Yeah, they lost. Westbrook in the last five minutes

started to get that MVP Westbrook thing going and just like, alright right, guys, I got this. And it actually made more sense. I was watching it. I hate that style of basketball. And I was watching it going, take over us. Just keep shooting. Don't worry about these other dudes.

Because I think that's who he is. You know, I think basketball players should be who they're meant to be. And I think Durant, you know, whether you like the decision or not, was meant to play on a team like Golden State that was trying to play this higher level of basketball. I think Westbrook's meant to just run his own team and take a lot of shots. That might be who he is. Well, I don't think you can, you can't say to Bolt, hey, I want you to run the 1500 meters. You know, he runs at one speed better than anybody. and that's what Westbrook does. He doesn't play 45s or 78s. He plays 33 in the third LPs here. And that's what – I don't know if he'll ever be able to change

because that's how he sees the game. This speed, this style, I don't know. Imagine Westbrook in a half-court offense. He just doesn't register with him. And he's really hard to play with because he's at that one speed. And if you're not at that speed, he gets frustrated. And he's also brilliant. And he's one of the great athletes we've ever seen at that position.

It's funny, you mentioned Tiny Archibald. I always thought with Tiny, the thing that these guys fade away and nobody ever thinks about them again. Tiny was the guy that he you know, these guys fade away. Nobody ever thinks about them again. Tiny was the guy that he would start the offense basically on the foul line. His handle was so good that he could just kind of get to the foul line and start it there. He'd be 15 feet from the basket. If people watched YouTube clips of him playing, they would be like, oh, my God, look at the spacing. It was like hockey.

There was just 10 guys packed around this 15-foot space. And now you watch basketball and you watch a team like the Warriors and the court is so wide open and you have all these guys 25 feet away from each other and the ball is somehow moving along and like the Rockets are shooting 45 threes a game. Do you like this? You know, as a gunner myself, I like it, but I don't think it's great basketball. You know, there's isolation. I don't like that. If you go back and watch, you know, older basketball and just see the movement that you have,

that to me was always great because the game, you know, aesthetically there was movement. It's almost like baseball. Baseball and basketball are very similar. It's all about hitting a home run. It's all about hitting a three. And you don't see the little things that go on in a basketball game or a baseball game anymore. And I do miss that.

You have great moments, great athletes, great shooters. It's not great basketball. That's why with what Golden State does, that they pass the ball, very few dribbles. I love it. Now, there are times when they drive me crazy that they're not, you know, somebody that I enjoy watching, you know, this old, they can be annoying, but how they play basketball to have those kinds of shooters, man, that to me is a beauty to watch. It's unbelievable. Yeah, I think Golden State and the Celtics are the closest to figuring out

the right style for what this era is. Because the Celtics, the ball is moving around all the time, and nobody's taking too many shots. They shoot 33s a game. I think if Hayward had been there, you know, this team might make the finals anyway. They've been so much better defensively than anybody thought. They have a great coach, and Kyrie is a level higher than I think a lot of people expected.

But had Hayward been in there with the movement they have and all that, I think that really had a chance to be a special team potentially. So hopefully it comes back. Let's talk about—oh, go ahead. But you do have two great coaches though, and Stevens and Kerr and understanding that, you know, and, and, you know, given what, you know, you had at Butler with, with Brad and even Steve Kerr with understanding the role that you play in,

in passing, facilitating it. I think that you see that with their team. So that doesn't surprise me at all. They're, they're great coaches, but that ability to actually teach the game is sometimes lost in the NBA. What 2017 player represented your game at its peak in pickup? I've heard good stories about your game, by the way. Let's see, who would be 2017? I know I didn't like playing defense. Um, I did. I did a pretty well.

You know what? My coach would always put me on the best score because like he, he wanted me to understand that you got to be at both ends. And I just didn't appreciate that. And he knew that my, yeah, well, my ego would get in the way and I'd want to be at both ends. And I just didn't appreciate that. But then he knew that my, yeah, well, my ego would get in the way and then I'd want to play some defense there. And I realized then I could get tired at the offensive end. So you got to sacrifice something. And who would I be? I would probably be maybe, what?

I was going to say J.R. Smith. No, you went through the hole more than J.R. No, I was a better shooter than J.R. Let me see. Maybe a Redick. Maybe a Redick. Okay. Redick. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. I had to pick a white guy, I guess. Isn't that the way it always

happens? Ray Allen. How's that? way it always happens? Ray Allen, how's that? I would love to. Ray Allen with the heat. How's that? Miami Heat, Ray Allen. That's good. I can see that in my head.

Yeah. Sharp-eyed shooter coming off a lot of screens. He's on the floor. Absolutely. I think Ray has the greatest shot in NBA history. The final shot. Form. Well, I was going to say, I think he probably, yeah, he had top three greatest form ever, but also made the greatest shot of all time.

I really do think that finals game six was the only shot. First of all, it swung the title. Second of all, he might have been one of like four people on the planet who would have even thought to do it and had practiced that specific shot and made it. I don't know who else. I just don't know who else you would have grabbed from the history of the league to put in that specific instance who could have said, hey, I've practiced this shot for the last 20 years of my life. I'm go make it now it's just crazy it was the whole thing's crazy who else do you have

form wise besides ray allen you said he's one of the top three who are the other two in your opinion i uh i love mike miller's jump shot i love bradley beal's jump shot um mike early mike miller like the memphis grizzlies Mike Miller. I always thought he just had a gorgeous one. I love Bradley Beal. And even though it's not a traditional jump shot, I think Curry's release is, I'm always

transfixed by it when he's really going. Like how, just the mechanics of it. How he's basically stripped everything out of it other than just these two steps of bringing the ball near his chin and just firing it with his wrist. And it's like 0.08 seconds or whatever he gets it off. Nobody shoots like him, the release he has. It's unbelievable.

It's still, how long have we been watching him for? 10 years. It still remains unbelievable to me watching him. I love it. Yeah. I would put Dale Ellis in there. I always thought Dale was one of the great deep shooters of all time.

So I'd put him on my short list along with Ray Ray. Yeah, that was a good one. Reggie's probably the one who became a little... I know he's one of your staples on your show. He's became a little overrated over time. I think the fact that he went into MSG and laid the smack down two straight years

and had the eight points in 13 seconds kind of vaulting him up. I would not put him in the top six or seven. I think the stats back it up. Definitely he's on the list of, uh-oh, we're up two, but that guy's wide open. He's definitely making that. He's on that list. You always thought it was going in with Reggie in a big moment,

which I think matters. But let's talk about Full Sail really quickly. I was really glad you decided to do this, that you brought my oldest friend Gus Ramsey into this. But most excited that, for selfish reasons, that The Ringer can get involved with this a little bit. We found, I think we have like 85 people at this point. It's really hard to find good people.

It's hard to find people that know how to do a bunch of different things. It's really hard to find people for podcasts and digital video and things like that. And people who aren't just pigeonholed in certain ways. And it was always amazing to me that the colleges that are out there that are sending kids out for journalism, they're teaching them the skills that you would have taught them. Like when I went to grad school in 1993, same things like, Oh, learn your print background, learn this. But it's actually the world's evolved so much that that's not how we should train, be training people. And that I think, I think, is one of the biggest reasons why I think full sale is a great idea.

What was the big appeal for you? I just found out that there were so many people who weren't ready to do this, who wanted to do this. I find it the most competitive job field in America. Everybody sits there and says, either I could do it or I want to do it. And I talked to Full Sail University. They have expertise in other fields, usually behind the camera, very big in motion pictures and sound. And I said, I'd like to do a sportscasting degree, a bachelor's degree.

And I'd been working on it for two years. And I needed somebody on the ground in Orlando where their headquarters are. And so I called Gus Ramsey, who had been released from the mothership after, I think, 23 years. And he was just the right person. He dealt with all of the students coming in from college that graduated and he was helping them do highlights. He also worked with talent. He was my producer when we did the big show on SportsCenter. And I had somebody who I thought was the right person to lead us and then to be involved with that. And it was just, it was sort of a different way to look at this. You know,

technology is always up to date there. You're able to graduate kids, you know, monthly, you know, the way the program will work that you'll be able to graduate them every month so you can place them each month. You're going to help them get jobs. You're not going to have to do post-graduation internships because the experience you have in front of the camera, and this will be podcast, radio, you're going to have that experience where you're not going to go into a job and say I'm going to have an internship. That's what I wanted to do.

I wanted to get rid of the internship. You know, we're going to work with local teams, broadcasters. We have people who have contacted us through Fox, NBC Sports, ESPN, and say, if you develop them and you sign off on them, those are the people we want working for us. And that was the fun part of it is you can make a difference with somebody, and you can see that difference right away. You're going to get all these reps in front of a camera.

You're going to learn how to write. You're going to learn how to produce. If you want to direct, if you want to do a podcast, if you want to be a podcast producer, you know, virtual reality is going to be big with this as well. And Full Sail embraced all of that. So we're excited, you know, to be coming up with the first students will be on campus at the end of January. And, you know, after that, we'll look forward to in 21 months placing them in jobs around the country.

I like the idea of that. You know, we found out with people that we look at because we're obviously trying to find young people all the time where it's they're really only available in May. And sometimes you can get internships or whatever, but everybody graduates in the same cycle. Sometimes people will graduate in December, but it's basically those two cycles. And it's an interesting concept to think that people are just might be available in February or people might be available in August. Like, who the hell knows? And I'm really interested to see how this plays out because, you know, obviously I got a little bit involved

and I think I'm on the advisory board or something like that. That's what I'm on, right? The advisory board? Is that what we're calling it? Yeah. All right. Well, it's sort of guest faculty, but Sage Steele's involved in this,

Jay Harris from the Mothership, George Bodenheimer's involved in this. So we have all different facets hopefully covered, guys who have been directors who are directors currently at other sports shows, just to have them, whether they're going to be on a webcam or they're going to be in person on campus, just to give you advice and tell you what you need to know and what you don't need to know. And everybody's got a story of how they got into the business, how to help you get into the business. All we want to do is have you better prepared than any of these other colleges.

And that's why I want people who are actually doing it now to be able to help you get the hands-on experience. Yeah, I think we would both agree that the best advice is just bust your butt and try everything and don't limit yourself and take that extra shift and take that extra whatever and volunteer for anything and just try to get reps and be involved. People always ask me, like, oh, how should I? It's like just work harder than everybody else. It sounds simple, but I really think that's part of it like our my buddy gus who you hired i remember

my favorite gus story was he graduated rollins and he got he got involved with this orlando tv station who didn't have a job so he worked there non-paying for like nine months and ate like ramen every night and just was like he was so determined to get in the door in that place that he didn't even care that he wasn't getting paid i you know i wouldn't recommend not getting paid but i'm just the story is he just he just wanted a break and he was gonna do everything he could to get that break and that's what he needed to do. And it worked. And I think, you know, especially now,

um, it's, it's a little easier to get a break, but the people that just go the extra nine yards are always the people that, that, uh, that we notice, you know,

it's like the, the people that give a shit. All you want to do. I just want you, I want you to have a headstart. That's all I want is that you already know the answers to the test when you get there, that you have this. You have a demo tape. You have experience.

I'm working with Sirius Radio, where they're going to give me a couple hours on my own radio channel, where late at night I'm going to be able to let students actually do a half hour of live radio. If that's what they want to do, you have to go in and do a half hour. So they might block out two hours for me so I can have four students or maybe I partner them up and have eight students have something that you actually do where somebody can listen and then we can critique it. I'm going to be involved in critiquing tapes on a monthly basis, visiting Orlando on the campus there as well. So it's a great challenge, but it's the next chapter in my broadcasting career. And I appreciate you being involved in any way, Bill, because the name resonates and

brings credibility. So very fortunate with that as well. I appreciate being asked. I look forward to cherry picking some of the best full-scale prospects. I feel like I'm getting free lottery picks out of this whole thing. This is great. I'm like Danny Inge. Well, congratulations on this. Seriously, I think it's great. I'm really happy for you. I'm more than happy for my buddy Gus and happy to be involved.

Thanks for your time. Good luck. All right, buddy. Thank you, Bill. All right. All right. We're going to get to Pastor Carl in one second, but from a gambling standpoint, we are going to remember the 2010s as the decade when live betting took off and where you're betting is just as important as who you're betting on. Here's an idea. Go to mybookie.ag. They've been in this business for years. Their reputation rocks solid. They do 100% cash bonuses. So off the bat, you're making money for doing nothing. They have the fastest payouts.

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Oh, yeah. And now our listeners say 50% when you sign up at Bluehost.com slash Bill Simmons. Once again, that is Bluehost.com slash Bill Simmons. All right. I'm about to run a 20-minute snippet of our conversation with Pastor Carl, Carl Lentz, who he came to visit here about, I would say two months ago and we just had an awesome conversation.

He's one of those guys who's involved in the lives of a lot of different people. And I don't know, I was just fascinated by him and really wanted to have him on a podcast. So this is from the last section of the podcast. We started talking about how the secret games work when the basketball players all happen to show up at random gyms and playing basketball. He has a lot of experience with playing in those games and knowing how they're made.

So it starts there and goes in a bunch of different directions. If you want to hear the whole podcast, which I would encourage, we're going to also run that on the Ringer NBA show. And it goes for about an hour, 10 minutes. So there you go. Here he is, my friend, Pastor Carl. Are you involved at all in that weird underground summer pickup scene? It feels like you are. My friend Chris Brickley is the generator of it.

Yes. Let's talk about this. Chris is a guy who kind of does what I do except for on the basketball side. So he's got a lot of trust with guys, and he's so good at what he does, a lot of guys gravitate towards him. And it just happened where everyone's looking for a place to play pickup. Nobody wants to play with average guys, and they're all in town for Fashion Week. I think Chris just maximized the moment.

Shout out to my book, On the Moment. Yeah. And he has access to all these guys. So I saw all those games, and it was awesome. How'd they decide? I've never heard the adequate. I think LeBron and KD probably picked them. And Chris had something to do with it. I thought Brickley was the one who made the teams.

Yeah, Chris would have. But I'm sure he's going to check with those two guys. I don't have facts on that. But yeah, I don't know who picked the teams, but they were good teams. There's always a random dude who plays overseas that you forgot about. I thought they're killing because he's got something to prove. Yeah, he's a big giant chip hunter. Right, and then the NBA guys pick up their

pace a little bit and it gets really, most of the games were pretty good, pretty intense. Alright, so if we say the bottom shelf intensity is the All-Star game. Yes, the bottom bottom. The next rung is Summer League. Next rung

is preseason. And next rung is like a really boring regular season game in New Orleans in front of 9,000 people. Where do these games rank? We're going to shift it to the right and say it's its own thing because I think guys work on one specific thing. So LeBron will go out there and go, from what I can see, I think maybe they're not trying to.

I know when Melo, one day, was just working on this post move. So no matter where he was, he wasn't shooting a lot of threes. He just kept going down to the post and doing the same thing over and over. I think some of those guys in the summer, they're like, I'm not going to bust my butt right now, but I'm going to work on this. So LeBron working on a step back or whatever. But it's intense because those guys are proud. So they might try to act cool, but when it gets down to it.

What kind of shit talking is going on? It's more respectful. It's nobody really going at it unless Russell's involved. If Russell's there, it seems like everybody, because Russell doesn't care who you are. Yeah. He would play in flip-flops and try to win. But I think most of the time I didn't see any, like, real.

Anybody young out there gets definitely no respect. It's very funny. They might try to pretend to call a ball, and people will be like, like, didn't even happen. KD said Carmelo went through a phase where he was just calling every cheap foul. If he didn't make the shot, he would call the foul late, and they would be able to buy the ball. Dante Jones, who is out there there he's a monster out there yeah but they'll they'll go at

people for sure they'll go out people i'm surprised they let dante jones in that game well i mean he means business so i think you need people that are going to play d and not have to have the ball all the time but he's he's a huge asset because he goes at it all the time they had that rookie or a guy who's at Kentucky this year, I think. Some giant dude. Yeah.

But you see some guys who you're like, wow, you know right away you're going to be something special. And you see other guys, you can tell they got a couple years before

they have the heart to be able to match. Can you see all that alpha dog stuff? All day. All the seeds are there, right? All day. You can see it.

Because Westbrook to me doesn't seem like he can play basketball any other speed than the speed he's at no if he's in the all-star game he's at that speed yeah and he's looking at everybody else like they're crazy russ is like i'm getting 50 i'm getting i'm getting the mvp if you want to be joe cool that's fine but i'm gonna go ahead and get 50 and and i don't care if anybody likes it and i love that about russ by the way cameras Cameras? Do they take all the phones? No cameras.

LeBron has a lot of dudes that roll with him. He has some heavy-hitting security, so there'd be these sweet little people who live in that building, and they'd be like, no cameras. And some lady just walking to her apartment, and he has to go away in shame. But yeah, there's not a lot of phones in there. Chris edited all those and had his guys get the photos that people saw.

I got a couple. No money? No money. No. They don't play like $2,100, $2,000 a person? Not that I know of. LeBron's Venmoing Carmelo money afterwards? Not that I know of.

I don't think they had any money on that stuff. What is the ideal number of an entourage for these guys whether it's bieber or carmelo it depends on what stage of the career oh i like this what's that mean i think early on in the career you have a lot of guys around you because you don't know what to do and you don't know who to trust you don't know where to go so you have like a lot so you trust the dudes that liked you when you didn't have anything they a lot of guys have mixed loyalty so a lot of guys will say if you're with me from the beginning you're with me for life yeah and i always tell guys like loyalty is about a principle not a person so if the person sticks with the principle that got them there cool but if they

don't being loyal doesn't mean letting the guy that's been with you from day one continue to fleece you and steal and put you in bad position so a lot of guys have to learn that the hard way like but it's my guy he's been with me forever yeah he's been terrible forever yeah that guy's been with you forever with his hand out if he doesn't change with your growth he's got to go and a lot of guys make that decision um it seems like for my i wouldn't say I have limited experience because I've crossed a lot of paths

at this point pretty sure that's an understatement you're kind of like your own guy though not as many as you no I'm my own guy but I'm just saying

from what I've seen with the Hoopers yeah they like to have their dudes and it's usually two or three yeah

from back home yep and you know whether back home is like high school or like AAU or college but there are these two or three from back home. And you know whether back home is like high school or like AAU or college, but there are these two or three people, they just trust those guys. And they don't, everybody else is regarded suspiciously until they cross. Like KD has Rich, who's like Rich Kleiman, who's like his dude now. I'm sure there was a feeling out period where he's like, I'm not sure with this guy.

I like this guy. But over the course of time, he became a guy. Well, Kevin is a trusting guy. So I think with Rich, who's just an awesome guy, he was quick to give trust. But Kevin's had some guys he's had his whole life that he just trusts. And you can tell those guys are different than the hangers-on. There's some guys who genuinely love these guys. And they're like, I don't care if you're rich or not.

I'm your guy. Anything you need. And there's other guys who, they love the life. You know, you could tell. They love it. And if that were to change, I don't know if they'd be around. So how deep is LeBron's entourage now? Because he's got bodyguards and stuff too.

LeBron is like a professional corporate mogul. I mean, he just, he runs, he's got the tightest crew tightest camp I've ever seen in my life. Everybody's got a job. Oh my gosh, yeah. And you don't if you don't produce and you're not like if you don't help his image and I think it's smart, I don't think you're going to be able

to be around LeBron for a while. So you never see LeBron in tabloids you never see him in trouble. You never see him, and partly because he lives a pretty solid, clean life. But the other thing is he's got guys that represent him well. Yeah, LeBron, considering when he became famous and all the pressure he's been under. He's done awesome. He really has.

It's unbelievable. And I know we're in an NBA culture where no one likes to give credit to anybody, but my gosh, has LeBron changed the game. It should have gone a lot worse. A lot worse. Yeah. I'm trying to think of... I mean, the dumbest thing he did was the decision.

I still think that was stupid. I don't think him leaving was stupid, but I think him doing it as a TV show was just really callous to the Cleveland fans. It's still indefensible. Yeah, and I see that in my profession a lot, where you'll see a guy, a big-time pastor, say something. Well, you know it's not them, but you're like,

who told you that that was going to go over well? And I think that happens with NBA guys all the time. But somebody like Westbrook, he's not a huge entourage guy. He has no entourage. Yeah, he's not a huge entourage guy. He has no entourage. Yeah, he's married. Have you ever seen his dad? His dad's ripped, right?

Yeah, his dad looks like he's 37. Yeah. And his mom is incredible. His brother Ray, who is awesome. He's in everything. But I'm pretty sure Russell's entourage includes Ray and his wife. He's that kind of guy where he's like, I'm good. I don't need friends.

I don't care if you like me or not. He's happy in Oklahoma City. But he's also, have you talked to him? Have you had him on this couch yet? No, he doesn't like me. I don't think he, I'll have to ask him. He doesn't like, him and KD were mad about the Harden trade stuff. I'm not taking credit for this. Call me crazy, but I was on national television talking about how stupid it was to chair James Harden.

I don't know. It was one of my wacky opinions. I went to bat for you before Kevin liked you. I know Rich might try to take credit for this link. Rich takes credit. Rich, I publicly defy that. Katie was the maddest about the Harden stuff. But I remember-

Like, it's my job to talk about this stuff. But you weren't necessarily wrong. I was not wrong. But, you know, I mean, guys get attacked so much that they're quick to hate all media guys but i think with any criticism see if it's true first step to any criticism before you get mad see if there's any truth to it well i think with that one it it it was it hurt it actually was too close to home yeah and now that we've done these podcasts in the fourth mailbag when katie talked about the hardened trades like the biggest what if of his career he never would have admitted that two years ago but it is crazy that they these three guys like harden we're taping this on a monday hard and

56 points on 25 shots last night he's on the same team with westbrook and durant it's it's it's shocking to think about do you think they could have survived, though? With those three guys being... I don't know. I think... I think they would have had to take different forms that might not have been as good for their ultimate destiny. But that includes... That's three-person humility. I don't know if that's happening. It's happened. At that level?

It's happened. Like, you saw it. I mean, you'd have to go way back. Yeah. You have to go back to like Russell Celtics and stuff like that. Those days don't count. Yeah, those days don't count. These, I don't know. You've seen it on the Dream Team.

Yes. You've never seen it over the course of a whole season and over the course of multiple seasons, you know? Yeah. It's tough. Basketball, this is why I love the stats. But at some point, the stats only go so far. Because there's still this whole other part of basketball that people don't account for. Like, all right, Westbrook won the MVP last year.

I didn't think he should have, but he was a candidate. I would have not put him below top three. But now you look at, Cantor leaves, he goes to New York. All of a sudden, he's an asset again. Yeah. Oladipo leaves, gets in better shape. So not all that's on Westbrook, but goes to this team. He's empowered. He's playing better.

Sabonis looked like a bozo last year. He looked like a complete bust and is now an above-average starting center. You've got to look back at that and you go, Westbrook was the MVP, but did he make those guys better? No. The situation made him better. I think what you're astute at pointing out a lot that if you're not on the inside of the NBA, you miss tone and vibe. Like vibe of a team.

So if a team gets a win, watch them walk to the bench. You can find out so much in interactions. So you've got a win, but you know this dude has hit three in a row, and teammates should clap. Teammate's still shaking his head looking at his boy in the stands. You know. That's something you can't statistically. Some of that's set from the coach, too.

It's the coach and the best player. Absolutely. Like Stevens with the Celtics, the guys, your minutes might get yanked around or whatever, but you look over the bench, they're all locked in. It's culture. It's culture all day long, and coaches set that. They're not having it.

Steven Jackson, who's a legend, he gets removed from the team. I think that's pretty heavy, and that's San Antonio culture. We'll not accept anything less than the best. Right, you think you're as good as Kawhi, you're not. You have to go. Yeah, I know Kevin has said some coaches would tell him ahead of time, hey, I'm going to say this, this, and that in front of the guys, and then come out and do it. And then it's like, I think players respect.

All I've ever heard about Steve Kerr is he treats you exactly the same everywhere. So if he's going to chew you out, it's going to be in front of people. If he's going to praise you, it's going to be in front of people. That sets a tone of accountability. He learned that from Popovich and Phil, though. Yeah. Those are the guys for that. Phil Jackson?

Huh? Phil Jackson? Well, he had Phil, the good Phil Jackson. Good Phil. Chicago Phil Jackson was the good Phil Jackson. I agree. I think Lakers won, got a little full of himself. Got a little bit of Kobe Shaq-ism.

Well, the thing with that team, though, that's the all-time combustible chemistry combo. Two guys that were just wired not to like each other if they played together, and they happened to play together during the primers. Have you ever pointed out the triangle offense myth, though? I just don't think it's— They never really stuck to it when it actually mattered. Michael Jordan, they didn't, but every time the triangles worked, he's had one of the greatest players of all time it doesn't if they can't work outside of that sample size i'm not buying it i watched the knicks try to run the

triangle for four years well the spirit of it phil uh steve carr has tried to do with the warriors he's taking little pieces of it he basically wants everyone to touch the ball which is what the triangle is the triangles is not always everyone touch the ball but you're going to obey these specific rules you will function in this orbit but it doesn't work in the three-point shooting area now you have team shooting 30 43s a game and correct i don't know can can you have two alpha dogs in the same team i don't know anymore i. I used to think so. But in Golden State, it's kind of proven they do. I think Steph and KD are the closest you can get to having two AlphaDogs. You put Draymond in there.

I think Draymond's his own kind of dog. I don't know if you can label him. I would say Draymond's the AlphaDog. Yes, but I do think... I don't think Steph and KD are wired like AlphaDogs. I still think your best player, as much as I love Kawhi, I feel like your best player has to be the biggest strongest leader in the nba i do i think at the end of the day that's that's what the guys listen to so i think when it comes to golden state's got

the best of all worlds they have draymond who's the biggest culture carrier and they got stephan kd who are pretty good leaders in their own right so now you've got three and clay is probably he's just quiet clay just a chill dude. But he could be if he needed to be. But I haven't seen in the NBA in this era, I'm interested to see John Wall and Bradley Beal.

What's going to happen there? I'm very suspect of that one. What's going to happen there? Like, I think there, it seems like it's going okay, but I don't know. You know, at some point someone has to go,

I'm okay to play the B-side tonight. I almost feel like the whole concept of Alpha Dogs is morphing into something else because I don't feel like KD and Curry are traditional quote-unquote alpha dogs, but what makes them great, among all the other things, they know exactly who they are as basketball players. Well said.

They have no illusions. They're like, I'm good. I just want to win. I want to make the right play. If I get hot, I'm going it yeah i love i love playing basketball the problems are when the guys don't like john wall yeah i don't think he totally knows who he is yet yeah let bradley shoot that thing in the corner yeah you saw the other game where he's wide open and he kind of and he did take it on himself but to me it just makes you better the worst thing that ever happened to john Wall was when he made that three-pointer and jumped on the table that game.

Yeah, because I don't think he's a great three-pointer. He's not good. And then the half-court, not as good either. I love John Wall. I think he's amazing. I think when he realizes that with a minute to go, down one, get the ball to Bradley Beal, Yeah. This is what's going to help us win. He's better than I am at this one thing. That's when he'll get there.

Steve Kerr, John Paxson. Who are these guys? These are little spot-up guys. Didn't make Michael Jordan any less, you know, to hit the wide-open guy. But, yeah, I think that seems to me like a more traditional alpha dog struggle down the road because Beal's going to just keep getting better and better. And at some point, those guys are going to look at each other. I noticed it with Lillard and CJ McCollum.

Lillard hit a big three, and I was looking at the tape trying to – the Blazers are jumping over on Lillard, and I'm looking like, where's CJ? I always look for that, too. And I didn't see him, and now he might have been on the other side of the court. It might have been a fluke. But I don't know. I always look for that stuff. Was CJ happy that he made that? I don't know. He better look for that stuff. It's like, was CJ happy that he made that?

I don't know. He better be. Yeah, he better be. It's the NFL receiver thing. You know, you won by 20, but you only had two catches. What's that malcontent going to do in the locker room? Same concept. So for me, that's where our thing is a big deal

because if your faith is where it should be, you should want other people to do well. Ultimately, everybody does better, but it's just not like that, unfortunately. All right. Thanks to Dan Patrick. Thanks to Pastor Carl. Thanks to Tay Frazier. Thanks to Seeky. Don't forget about NBA tickets. First time users, $20 off. All you have to do is use offer code BSNBA. Don't forget about The Ringer's YouTube channel, youtube.com slash The Ringer for all the videos. Subscribe. Just do it for me, for God's sakes.

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Download the Hotel Tonight app now. Thanks to Bluehost for bloggers and small business owners. Bluehost has everything you need to build hosts and manage the website you've always wanted. Simple enough for beginners, powerful enough for even the most advanced users. Bluehost gives you the freedom to design your website your way without being limited by templates. Our listeners save 50% when you sign up at bluehost.com slash bill simmons don't forget friday not only have a new column up on the ringer but i'll have an awesome new podcast the bs podcast with a uh a brand new guest so if you want more podcasts

until mine on friday go to the ringer. Hell, you could even subscribe to One Shining Podcast. The ball is tipped. You know Teddy Pendergrass sang that first? They always want to change it. They try to keep updating it. I was like, well, Beyonce might sing One Shining. People just lose their mind. Yeah, how about this? Use Teddy Pendergrass. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, he was the first one.

I think he was the first one. If he's not, I apologize to whoever was the first one, but I'm almost positive it was Teddy Pendergrass. Anyway, back later in the week on the BS Podcast. Thank you. On the wayside On the first side of the river I said I don't have To ever forget