The Bill Simmons Podcast - Celts-Bucks Lessons, L.A.'s Looming Playoff Palooza, and Best ‘WrestleMania 39’ Story Lines With Rob Mahoney, David Shoemaker, and Kazeem Famuyide

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Rob Mahoney to discuss the Celtics' blowout win over the Bucks and a deadlocked MVP race (1:16). They then discuss the newfound strength of the Western Conference, where the 76ers rank among playoff contenders, exciting Western playoff matchups, and more (21:54). Later, Bill talks with David Shoemaker and Kazeem Famuyide about ‘WrestleMania 39,’ the spectacle of Omos vs. Brock Lesnar, Logan Paul's surprising assimilation into the WWE, best WrestleMania matches, and more (50:35). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Rob Mahoney, David Shoemaker, and Kazeem Famuyide Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, the Celtics are dead. No, the Celtics are alive. They're alive. We're going to talk about that in wrestling next. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us.

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We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. If you missed the rewatchables, we put one up on Monday. We did Cape Fear. I'm also going to be on the Prestige TV podcast on Sunday after episode two of Succession. And you can also hear this podcast on Sunday. Russell will be coming on, as always, as the NBA schedule heats up.

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same bed with a woman. That's really the big difference. Anyway, let's get to the podcast first. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this after the Bucs-Celtics blowout. The Celtics beat the Bucs by 1,000 points. Rob Mahoney is here from the ringer. We thought this was going to be a game of the year candidate. It was not. It was the best game the Celtics played all year. Somehow,

because they lost by 19 to Washington on Tuesday night for reasons that remain unclear to a Washington team that was dying to tank and maybe getting the top six for the lottery. The Celtics still probably can't catch the Bucs.

But yet, Rob, there was a little message sent tonight. And the message was this. We are very comfortable against you, Milwaukee. We know you have Giannis. We know you have Drew. We know you won the title a couple years ago. But we like the matchup against you guys.

We have some options. We have huge advantages with the wings. And we think we can bring it to you guys tonight. Now, Bucs, five games in seven days. You let the whole thing, but they were home. I felt like the Celtics probably needed this more than the Bucs. What did you think? Like, do you make anything out of this game or is it just whatever?

No, there's definitely things to take from it. And things we've seen before too, right? Like from the outset, this did for a moment feel like a playoff game. And I mean that by the intensity, by the way it was officiated, and in the end, by the fact that the Bucs could not hit threes. And we've seen that before from them, including

against the Celtics in the playoffs, when they hit at a below average level, they tend not to win a lot of those games. They're very reliant on their guys hitting. Supporting cast, Chris and Drew, everybody. And so anytime they don't do that, they're going to be vulnerable. Anytime Boston runs this much, they're going to be

vulnerable in that matchup. But yeah, this was a statement game. And it was a statement not only with the win and the dynamics we're talking about, but just like the carnage of it. You know, if you're Milwaukee, how do you get this kind of loss out of your head? The fact that if we don't come correct, if we don't get our

shit straight in this matchup, this could happen to us at any time. Boston's comfortable in Milwaukee. That's where they saved their season last year in Game 6. Even though Milwaukee is going to have home court, Boston at least knows that they can go in there. There was a couple moments with Jason Tatum versus

Joe Ingles tonight. And Joe Ingles was somebody who coming off a major injury, but yeah, you think like he was a really good defensive player a couple of years ago in Utah. Oh, he'll be an interesting wrinkle for this matchup because Tatum's had a lot of success against this team and Tatum was just blowing by him. And it was the combination.

Yeah. They were hitting threes, but their wings were blown by Milwaukee's wings. And I have a couple of Bucs fans in my life, including Ben Thompson, who's been on this podcast before from Stratechery. And he was just like, this has been Giannis' kryptonite team his entire career.

Now, Ben gets a little hysterical about the Bucs, but Boston has always been pretty comfortable against the Bucs. The only time they lost them in the playoff series was the second Kyrie season. Came back, beat them last year. They beat them in 2019, I think. But the Wings, if you're Milwaukee, is

the thing you're afraid of against any playoff team because that's where they've patched up together. It's Jay Crowder. It's Joe Ingles. It's Conadon. Middleton coming off an injury who's been pretty good the last, I don't know, 15 games although he got his mouth knocked tonight. But Boston, I would say Boston and the Clippers are probably the two teams if I'm Milwaukee

that I'm going, ooh, well, there's one where we are definitely at a disadvantage at that one spot. Extremely challenging matchups there. And as you're saying, they're getting blown by in some of those matchups. And to the point that, yeah, you have to maneuver it so that Drew is going to guard Tatum a lot of the time.

You like that, but don't necessarily love it. But you look across those players you're describing, Ingles, Crowder, Grayson Allen, even Middleton, who's been good offensively, but isn't quite himself defensively yet. These aren't guys who are just going to lock you down, stay in front of you at every step. What makes the Bucs elite defensively is the help. It's all about Brooke and Giannis. It's all about what they can provide in support. And if you can push and just get out, at least in semi-transition, like Jalen Brown did all game long. You can eat against this team

if you pick your spots and you play them well, and Boston has the exact kind of athletic wings who can create and handle and shoot to do some of those things. To be clear, I still think Milwaukee, if I had to bet my life on a title team, I'm not even thinking twice. I'm betting on Milwaukee,

and I'd probably, I'd pick Milwaukee-Denver before the season. I'll probably stick with that just to try to hit it. But Phoenix is looming now that Durant came back about a week sooner than I expected. He only played 60 minutes last night, but they're at least going to have a week to indoctrinate him. So I'm not panicking about Milwaukee,

but I thought they had a chance here with Boston coming off that Washington loss, Boston coming off some just bizarre losses in March where they're really, really, you can't, you wouldn't believe my texts that I'm on with some of my friends, Boston, they lose that Nets game where they're up 28 and they lose by 10.

They lose that stupid Knicks game that we're just, it was just Marcus Smart just running them in the ground Derek White on the bench they lose that crazy Cavs game in OT that Grant Williams just has a free throw and doesn't they lose to the Rockets who didn't even play well Jalen Green was 8 for 29 in the game

they still lose by 2 they lose a horrible Jazz game in the last minute where they're up 10, they're up eight, they're up eight with four minutes left. They still managed to lose. And then the Wizards game Tuesday, six losses that each loss just sent my phone into a vibrating frenzy of hell for about an hour with the people in my life.

And yet the Celtics are still lingering. They're two back. They have the tiebreaker now. There. They're two back. They have the tiebreaker now. There's five games left. I sent you the Bucs schedule. Both of them have to play the Raptors. The Bucs, none of their games left are easy. And they're going to have to go, I think, probably three and two. I don't know if the Celtics can go five and O against their schedule and how erratic they've been, but at least the Bucs have to earn it now. I'm not sure it matters because I think either team can win on either floor.

It probably matters more for whatever the finals matchup would be for either team. But every time the Celtics team where I feel like that's it. Fuck these guys. I'm out. And then I get sucked back in, Rob. It just keeps happening.

We're tapping into what makes this season so wild and so great, which is Boston can be both of those teams. They can be the teams that lose to the Wizards. They can absolutely destroy the Bucs. The Bucs came into this game. They won 26 of their last 30 games. And they just got absolutely demolished. They just came off of another big loss to Denver.

They also lost to Philly recently a close one like they've lost some of these statement games that you would really want them to be like putting their imprint on their place in the league they haven't been able to do that and like this looming question of the most dominant team in the league and I'm with you on the Bucks like they would be my pick hands down

to win the whole thing to win the East they're flawed like this is a flawed team that can be dominant and has one of the most dominant players in the league. But they're going to leave the door open for teams like the Celtics sometimes. They're going to leave the door open for Philly sometimes. And it is funny that we're getting to this stage

where honestly the Raptors might decide who gets the top seat in the Eastern Conference. I'm kind of thinking the door's open a little bit, especially with Boston winning the tiebreaker with this one. There is a chance for the Celtics to catch up and get the number one seed. I'm not as concerned about that for the finals or even for their head-to-head matchup

like a Celtics-Bucks playoff series. But who you get in the second round changes pretty dramatically between one and two. Great point. The Celtics have Utah Friday night at home. A team that seems like they've given up on the team never wins both when it's like the two home games that are out. It feels like one of them gets funky. And then last game of the season, they're playing against Atlanta,

a team that they've had. I just feel like that's a good matchup for the Celtics. So it is conceivable they could run the slate, which would then force Milwaukee to go four and one. And the Milwaukee schedule, as mentioned earlier, not like a barrel laughs. They have, let's see, home

Philly Sunday, at Washington. That's easy. Home Chicago, home Memphis, and at Toronto. And we don't know what happened to Chris Middleton because it looked like he lost some teeth. Who knows? He might have some dental stuff. Just spitting up blood all over the floor.

Yeah, it was pretty ugly. What happened to Chris Middleton is what happened to the Bucs in this game. There's a lot more viscera than I was expecting. A couple other things that came out of this game. One, I think Tatum needed a game like this, especially in a national TV game because he was probably the favorite to be the,

in the fourth spot for MVP, but he wasn't locking it down, especially after the all-star break. And I think he needed a game like that where you just needed to watch Jason Tatum for two hours ago. Oh, that guy's fucking awesome. So that happened.

I think Giannis blew whatever chance he had for the MVP tonight. And I'm not saying this game changed the course of what would happen for the MVP, but I think he could have like climbed back in a little bit if he had just absolutely destroyed the Celtics or had one of his 45, 21 and eight with four blocks. Like one of those like one man show games, I think he needed it to get back in

because it feels like right now Fandul, Jokic, and Embiid are both plus 110, which I thought was hilarious. We're in a dead heat with nine days left. But I think Giannis could have climbed back in and there could have been a narrative that came out of this. Well, they're the best team and he's the best guy.

What are we doing, everybody? He just late, but it didn't happen. And that was one of the worst games he's had. So I think he's out, right? Cross him off. I don't know if you can fully cross him off, but it's going to be a really tough sell. He basically needed to pitch six perfect innings

from now until the end of the season. And if he had dominant performances in all those games and the Bucks hit 60 wins, for example, then the argument you're describing becomes pretty compelling. But as it stands, there's a reason why it feels like a dead heat and why in ESPN.com's straw poll,

it is a dead heat right now between Jokic and Embiid. There's definitely much stronger constituencies for those two guys right now than Giannis. And games like this do not help. To be clear, both of us think he's the best player in the league, right? Agreed, yeah. If we're going into the playoffs with one

player, we're picking him. My audacity to get him to the top of the ringers NBA rankings, I fail yet again. I keep getting outvoted. Giannis is the number one player in the NBA. Bonteps did his latest drop hole, which

really seems to have a lot of weight. Congrats to him for coming up with a good gimmick. I have no idea how he gets all these voters, but he had Embiid with 40 first place votes and Jokic with 42. But Embiid had slightly more points just because he had more second place votes than Jokic did.

And then Giannis was third with 18 first place votes, which I think is going to dip now because I think people were kind of thinking he might make a run here and he didn't tonight. So it feels like that car is finally pulled off the highway. So now it's Embiid versus Jokic. I was more bothered by Embiid missing that Jokic game than others. I don't know, man.

What was your gripe? I would have skipped the Saturday game and played the Monday game. For all the talk and all the pushing out of the Philly side, right? With the organization, with the fans, all that stuff. And the chess being put out all year about Embiid. You kind of have to play in that game. And they did a back-to-back Friday, Saturday. And I don't know if his calf was spent.

Maybe he tweeted during that game. I don't know. But I just, I thought he needed to be in that game. And I thought he really could have made a statement. And the only reason I mention it is because he's already made it clear to all of us how important it is to him. And if it was that important to you,

I don't know, maybe show up in that game. So I think he did leave the door open for Jokic a little bit. And Jokic has also been lights out the last couple weeks. They had that little dip, but now it feels like they're right in the ship. And yet, you watched Phoenix last night,

even for the 16 minutes that Durant played. Phoenix-Denver round two is going to be a nightmare. So right now, I have a dead heat, Jokic and Embiid. I'm not leaning either way. Are you at this point? I don't really have a strong lean. I mean, I got to sit down. I got to sit down and figure it out. I gotta

clear my schedule. Honestly, I was really hoping to get some kind of piece of clarifying information from that matchup to just see them go head-to-head one more time. Not that it's gonna swing the whole race, but it's good to see those guys match up against each other. So it's a bummer from that perspective to not have that as

a viewer, as a fan of the league, as someone who's just looking forward to that game, but also as a voter. And fan of the league as someone who's just looking forward to that game but also as a voter and I'm trying to figure out what to do with these two guys but for me it has narrowed to them too like for me Giannis is separate in third and fourth and fifth is I mean you make a great point about Tatum but

Shay has made a strong case to be on a lot of ballots Luca is obviously going to get a lot of support for four or five those are interesting spots in themselves. I think Luka's out for me. You think he's just off your ballot? He's off my ballot, yeah.

Just because Reggie Bullock can't hit threes? He's doing all the Luka stuff. It's just guys don't hit shots. The defense is bad. I don't know. He's still pretty great. His defense is bad.

I mean, his defense is very bad. His defense is the worst it's ever been, and it's been bad for the whole second half of this season. There's some body language stuff with him too that I just fundamentally don't like. Last night, that Philly game, they're trying to climb back.

I think they're down five with like a minute left and Hardaway ends up with the ball on the right side. Does the weird Tim Hardaway thing where he's like, I got this, guys, and drives right into a bead, chucks it against the backboard. And Luka was in the corner and did the second long freeze pause, disgusted jog back.

And I was like, that's not good. That's the kind of stuff the body language doctor does not like. No. But they've had a lot of those this season. They're really spotty. I mean, I know they can't rebound. I know they can't guard anybody, but he's the best player on the team

and he's the worst defensive player on the team. There's a million Jokic stats now that are coming out of the woodwork about how bad he is defending the rim, all this stuff. But at least he tries and gives a shit and throws his body in things. He's just, he's got some challenges, but I always feel like he gives a shit for the most part. There's a couple of times he doesn't run back, but Luka to me just feels like he's a DH this season. And, you know, I think I've been really critical in the past of,

you know, LeBron's had some seasons the last couple of years where I just feel like when he was almost a Pippen level defender in his peak, and he's just kind of thrown away that side of the, of the court for the most part, cause he's conserving energy for the offense. Harden, same thing. His defense has been abominable at times. And I think Luca, the stuff we've seen from him this season is just awful. You don't know who to put him on. It's not like he can guard bigger guys or smaller guys. He really hurts them. So if I'm saying like,

I'm going to fill out an MVP ballot, your team has a below 500 record and you're abominable on one side of the floor. I don't know if I can get there. And the intangible stuff is real, right? The body language stuff is more than just one glimpse in one national game. It's a consistent problem.

And it's one of those things with great players where oftentimes he's not wrong to react that way in the same way that when Draymond Green gets in an argument with a teammate, often they will say, actually, he was right.

But there's a matter of like how you're navigating that situation and rolling your eyes at your teammates missing another shot when you're Luka Doncic. And yes, you did everything to create that shot. And yes, it was wide open. Sometimes you just got to hold back and you got to do things and you have to swallow things in that moment and get back on defense. And the constant pitching at the refs, I think he's number one this season. With a bullet. For who's bitching and barking at the refs the most.

No question. And just constantly just never ends. There's an unhappy vibe with him just this whole season that was a little unusual for him. I know he's got stuff going on off the court. He's involved with some branding lawsuit potential thing with his mom.

And I look, man, everybody's had rough years, but when you're talking about, it's not like that team, I don't love the supporting cast. I don't think it's very good, but it's not, it's not atrocious, you know, like in the West with how many injuries there's been. And I don't know, I just, I can't do it. But you know, one of the things with the MVP ballot is I had Fox more valuable than Sabonis, but then I see other people, a lot of other people think Sabonis is the MVP candidate of that team, not Fox. So I'm like, am I looking at this wrong? Cause I really value the clutch stuff with Fox, but then there's other cases like Sabonis. He's a mismatch.

He makes everybody better. He's a durable big guy in a league where no big guys are durable. And I could see that case too. So I almost wonder if they're going to nullify each other out. Just what greater sign of our times than the Kings giving you an existential crisis with your MVP ballot? Right. Wait a second. I think I'm dead. Wait a second. Am I alive? Unreal. I see a creek and flowers. I think I'm dead.

All right. We're going to come back and talk. There's a bunch of West playoff stuff going on, but we want to talk about Philly too. So let's take a break quick. Grand slams, no hitters and double plays are back and there's no better place to get in on the MLB action than FanDuel, America's number one sports book.

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In Wyoming, 800-522-4700. In West Virginia, visit 1800gambler.net. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey, And it's on prime all season long. Watch prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on prime. All right. So we're going to talk about Philly, but I want to talk about it in the context, something I texted you today.

We've said all year that the East was better than the West, and the East had a better record against the West this year. And just in general, we've talked about the East a little bit more, and it's like, oh, look at the West. What a dumpster fire. Oh, my God, it's so bad. Sacramento might be too safe. I look at it now.

I think the West is better than the East. I think they have more dangerous teams in the West. The East, the arrows pointing down for a lot of the teams. The Knicks, I felt a lot better about them a month ago. I felt a hundred times better about Philly a month ago. You see Brooklyn going down. There's some Chicago, Toronto playing friskiness, but you can't take it seriously.

Miami looks like dog shit. And I don't know if they're rope-a-doping me to get confidence against them for the 2-7 matchup against the Celts, but whatever. The Celts certainly have been as good this month, although I think them and Milwaukee have the two best odds. But I was looking at FanDuel. Milwaukee, Boston have the two best finals odds.

Eight of the next 10 teams are West teams. And in general, like Phoenix, Denver, Memphis is playing better. Golden State, if Wiggins comes back, we know we'll take all of them seriously. You go on and on, there's probably six teams that I could see in the finals. Can we say now that the West is at least even with the East?

Okay, it depends on how we want to measure it, right? Because one through three, the East is better. it depends on how we want to measure it, right? Because one through three, the East is better. Are we in agreement on that? Like Milwaukee, I guess, at least in terms of seeding, it depends on how you want to classify Phoenix because honestly, Phoenix could be the best

number four seed of all time if they enter into the playoffs more or less healthy. Hard to imagine a more compelling four seed than that. But in terms of seeding, one through three feels like the East. Four through 12 is probably better in the West. 13 to 15, to the extent that it matters.

Yeah, who cares? Not really a factor in this play. But there was an interesting stat from John Schumann of NBA.com this week that basically from 1999 until 2021, the West had a winning record against the East in 21 of those 22 seasons. And the last two years has shifted a little bit to the East. Certainly notable.

But as you're saying, if you're better in one conference, four through 10 or four through 12, how we're measuring this stuff, I don't know. I don't think the eighth best team in the West is going to win the championship, but there's just more good teams in the West. Yeah, if you're going top two against top two,

I think Boston and Milwaukee have a slight advantage over, I'm going to say Denver and Phoenix. If I just had to rank who I think is most likely to make the finals, I'm going to put Phoenix second because Durant's back now and I think is most likely to make the finals, I'm going to put Phoenix second because Durant's back now and I think they have to be taken the most seriously.

But then you go Philly against that Memphis thing. What am I getting from Philly? The disheartened thing. We watched him stay healthy three and a half months. I had him second team all NBA at one point. Then he disappears.

So I was got a calf, lower body injury yet again. I don't know what to make of that. I don't know this Embiid calf thing. What's going on there? Is he starting to break down? They put big miles on him in the games he played.

He's playing, you know, 36, 37 minutes a game. I don't feel as good about that team. Like they, they kind of have to show it to me. Now they might luck out in round one because they might get Brooklyn that

even though that's going to be a weird matchup and there's like a whole universe where Jacques Vaughn just does a Norman Dale in that series and just this swarming and bead with interchangeable six, seven wings. He's got 20 of them, but let's be honest. He's got 20 of them. But let's be honest. If you're them,

you'd rather play that team than Miami. That's probably why they're not that concerned about the two-seed. So anyway, it just feels like Philly's lost momentum at the worst possible time. You agree? Yeah, they've built a pretty strong case over the course of the year. And they've really built it based on

Embiid and Harden's two-man game, based on the defense, based on the supporting they've really built it based on. Embiid and Harden's two-man game. Based on the defense. Based on the supporting cast. Really finding their roles really effectively. And for Harden and Embiid to both have. Soft tissue leg injuries. Coming down the stretch. Notoriously hard to beat.

Especially when you're playing consistent games. I mean look. It's concerning. Embiid looked. At least like he was taking it a little bit easy against the Mavericks the other night. Yeah, I agree. And I get that. And he turned it up when

it mattered and he made every big play when it mattered. What I'm curious about is to see him in the games where you don't have that luxury, where you're not playing against a team like Dallas, where you have to go all out basically every minute you're out there. And if you're Philly, you need him out there an awful lot. Does he have that in him?

Does Harden, who said he's basically been dealing with this injury on and off all year, does he have that in him? Those two guys are just so critical and for both of them to have that at the same time where it's not even a matter of like, okay, Embiid can shoulder more because Harden can't or vice versa.

Look, playoff runs have been, have gone completely off the rails for much less than that. So I'm a little worried about them at this point. And that was always the reason not to take that team too seriously as a contender is, could those two guys stay healthy for 10 straight weeks when it mattered? Yeah. They play Toronto

on Friday, tomorrow. That's home. Then they go home for the Bucs on Friday, tomorrow. That's home. Then they go home for the Bucs on Sunday, home for the Celtics on Tuesday, home for the Heat on Thursday, at Atlanta, finish against the Nets. There's a world where we feel great about Philly in five days, six days,

and there's a world where all of a sudden there's pulsating red flags everywhere. I have a Philly fan in my life who's convinced they're trying to tank to get to the fourth seed, who's also semi-insane. That's a good qualifier. But they are three ahead of Cleveland

in the last calm. I don't see it. I think they're probably stuck at three. But maybe because they're stuck at three, maybe they could experiment and really try to rest these guys. Especially if, given that they have head-to-head

matchups with their biggest rivals in the conference, they just might not feel super compelled to show their best stuff anyway. And let's not give anyone another shot at Joel Embiid to figure out where to run the double team at him, from which direction and which matchup. Let's just kind of play everything a little bit slow.

Let's take our time. Let's ease him and Harden through these games or in and out of these games as we need to. You could easily see that for Philly down the stretch. They just don't need every game at this point in the way that Milwaukee and Boston might want every game. I learned this 10 years ago when I was doing Countdown. The Knicks kind of peaked in mid-March.

I think we started multiple shows with, can the Knicks win the title? And we got all excited and a little five-minute package and going around the circle, talking, oh, look at the three-point shooting. You never want to peak in mid-March. And there's that one team every year that

peaks in mid-March. It might be Philly, it might not, but I really liked what I was seeing more from them two weeks ago. And I do think they put a lot of miles on Embiid in those games. That where he was, especially when he was averaging 35, 36 a game forever. Now, there's no perfect way to do this.

The Celtics went the other way and they were just, you know, you can tell in the first quarter what team I'm getting. It's bizarre. It's like having twin brothers. It's like tonight against the Milwaukee. I'm like, oh, the good team showed up today. This is great.

They're driving to the basket. They have cohesion. So you never know with this stuff. The Cleveland piece of this, where they're locked into the four seats. So Boston and Philly are going to miss them. And Milwaukee is sitting there at the, at the one seed almost positively against that Cleveland team.

Now they don't have the wings like that. Probably Cleveland's biggest weakness is the Milwaukee strength, which is please don't have good wings. And then we can get everything else. So I would think that's a good matchup. You don't see a world where Cleveland actually throws some haymakers at Milwaukee, do you? I mean, I think there's a world,

but Milwaukee should still be a strong favorite in that series. But there's enough interesting little micro matchups, right? Like the Donovan Mitchell versus Drew Holiday matchup is going to be an all-timer. That's going to be incredible to watch. We're going to see what Evan Mobley's got. A guy that we've talked about and praised a lot on this podcast.

We're going to throw him into the fire in the highest pressure. A matchup that has the lowest threshold to make mistakes in a guy like Giannis. I don't know that the Cavs are up for all that, but their chance to win that series is not zero. They have a good enough defense. They are just dynamic enough

that if Milwaukee has enough bad shooting nights, they could make it a series. But there's a reason why you want to play Cleveland instead of Philadelphia. Even with all of the concern trolling we're doing about Philly, all the concern you could have in the world about Joel and James Harden's health,

I don't want any part of that. I don't want to play Joel Embiid in a playoff series if I have any ability to pick and choose. Is concern trolling, do you make that up or is that an actual phrase? No, that's an actual phrase. We've been out here concern trolling teams for ages. Concern trolling. That's a good one. All right, let's walk through this really quick. Okay. Cleveland-Milwaukee round two. Yeah. Give me one Mitchell game where he just hits like 10 threes. Give me one game where the Bucs don't show up like they did tonight. So there's two Cavs wins.

Is there a Giannis like foul trouble game? Could be. Is there one crazy Garland game? I think that's a tough matchup for Garland. I'm just trying to get the four wins for them. I mean, I think Mitchell would have to have the series of his life, to be honest with you.

And he's had some great playoff series. He's shown that he's capable of that in contained stretches, certainly. But he would have to be going off all the time. So we need two Mitchell games. I think so. We need the Bucks no-show game

and just try to get it to seven. And then in seven, maybe one of the Mitchell games. Yeah. I don't think they're ready yet. Probably not. You may get more than one Bucks no-show game,

at least in terms of things like the shooting, right? Like, again, in that series against the Celtics, they shot like 20-something percent in several of those games. In Game 7, the Bucs shot 12% from three. Those games are possible for Milwaukee,

and they might win some of them with defense anyway. They have that in them as well, but I don't know. You really just can't count on the Bucs three-point shooters to always be there. It's going to be Giannis that's more or less always there. It's going to be some of the mid-range stuff from Chris Middleton. It's going to be Brooke Lopez's new and improved driving game

is going to work against most opponents, but sometimes the shots are not going to go, and that's going to leave Cleveland some options. Who are you voting for Defensive Player of the Year? Have you thought about it? I've thought about it. I might abstain. I'm just out. I don't have a choice. I'm going to roll it player of the year. Have you thought about it? I thought about it. I might abstain. I'm just out.

I don't have a choice. I'm going to roll it over to next year. It's like skins and golf. I'm rolling it over. I don't have a candidate this year, guys. Sorry. I'm leaning Jaron Jackson Jr. I think he's awesome. I think Brooke Lopez is probably the

closest runner up for me. Brooke has so much more defensive support than Jaron Jackson Jr. does, where in Memphis, there's some defensive liabilities on that team. There's a lot of guys who you're carrying and shouldering. For someone who can cover as well as Jaron

can, who can block shots in so many ways, who can affect releases all over the floor, I think he does something that basically no one else does. And I think it's pretty unique, and it's really carried Memphis into a pretty special place defensively this season. I probably can't get there with Lopez,

despite the stats. No. So, it's looking like Jackson. I might do the fuck you Drew Holiday vote, just because I love Drew Holiday, and just like, fuck it. Who's going to come at me that I voted for Drew Holiday? He's the best defensive player in the league.

Everybody loves Drew Holiday. Let's talk about the West really quick. One thing I was thinking about today, if the Lakers get the eight seed and we end up with Suns Clippers, there's a world. Games three and four, round one. Durant, Booker, Chris Paul, and Jokic all in town for like a Friday, Saturday, Sunday,

or Saturday, Sunday, Monday. Four home games, game three and game four. Maybe even some in the same days. But it could be like the 72 hour four playoff games, six of the most famous players we've had in the last 20 years, all just passing through. Um, and same thing with a game six, if either of those went game six, where you could have like back-to-back nights of suns Clippers, Denver Lakers. Um, I just started getting excited about it because I've been out here 20 years and only a couple of times have we even had both teams in the playoffs, which seems crazy, but it's,

it's true. And one of the years was the, was the bubble season. So, I mean, that was probably the best chance to have both of them potentially even meet in the conference finals and we didn't even have it. So I got excited about that because you know, both teams are in those series too. It's not like it's the year that they played that 2019 warriors and the Clippers like, Oh, it's amazing.

They won two games off the words like the Clippers could hang with that son's team. I don't know what to expect from them. They've the rent's been on the team for a week. Um, and then the Lakers, our guy, Chris Mannix today just fucking threw's been on the team for a week. And then the Lakers, our guy Chris Mannix today just fucking threw his dick on the table.

He did a Lakers are going to win the West column. He doesn't usually do stuff like that. I thought it was ridiculous. I love you, Chris, but I don't see it. I just don't. I don't see those guys staying healthy for six weeks would be my counter to the column.

Are you telling me you're going to get six straight weeks out of AD and LeBron? That's what you need to make the finals. And six straight weeks of good D'Angelo Russell, every other factor breaking in your favor in addition to some of these other teams in the West melting down. I just don't have enough

confidence in anything in that situation. But honestly, you've piqued my curiosity about this like cryptopalooza going on potentially games. So you're coming? You're coming to LA? The question is not,

am I coming? It's do we leave or do we just like camp out on the grounds and we just stay there for days on end? Interesting. Like it's like a music festival.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, sometimes the West playoffs are awful. And this year I could, I would love going to any of these games. Like Sacramento's going to have at least three home games, maybe even four in round one.

And that crowd's going to be out of their mind. Talk about a crazy, that'll be the single craziest crowd we have. And unfortunately, it's probably going to be against Golden State unless the Timberwolves continue to get frisky, which is possible. But Golden State, Sacramento, that just feels like a big brother, little brother thing. On the other hand, I don't know if you've noticed this, it's in the air.

I want to play the Kings. It's out there. It's chip on the shoulder time, Rob Mahoney. Mike Brown writing stuff on the blackboard. Just writing down quotes he saw in podcasts and on blogs. I mean, Draymond tried to caveat wanting to play the Kings by saying it was for travel reasons.

But I feel like if you are Mike Brown in this situation, you hit it with the ellipses. You don't include the travel reasons when you're throwing it up on the bulletin board. You just let... You just dot dot dot it? You just doctor the quote a tiny bit. It's not fundamentally changing the meaning. They are choosing

to want to play you, but I don't know. Honestly, the Ringer's own Logan Murdoch and I were talking about this today, about the potential Kings-Warriors matchup. Yeah. I kind of think the Kings can win that series. I don't think that's a good matchup for the Warriors.

I don't love it. Just not really loving where their defense has been all year, Golden States. Yeah. I wouldn't want any part of trying to slow down Sacramento. And I think they could really get in trouble because the Kings are a team that can withstand a big Warriors run, a huge Steph game. They can survive some of those things

because they're going to score with you. I think Sacramento would have a real shot in that series. Kyle, turn the camera on. So we could have the possibility of Sacramento round one beating big brother Golden State. Like this is the TV show where one guy's the billionaire and the other guy's been in and out of rehab and moved back into the pool house.

And then all of a sudden they switch fortunes. Round two, Memphis. Winnable. But then what about round three? If they could somehow get there and then it, and then it's somehow the Lakers, the team that ripped their heart out in 2002 And then somehow the Lakers, the team that ripped their heart out in 2002 along with the referees, the team that every Kinks fan hates fundamentally

deep down with every ounce of their skin and bones, and that was the team waiting for them in round three. And you could go through the Warriors and the Lakers in the same playoff run. I mean, the odds of this are 100 to 1, but I just had to mention it. I know you want some playoff justice for the Kings, them getting their shot against the Lakers.

I do. The Lakers aren't making it that far. It's just not happening. But I would love to see it. And the Memphis matchup as a second rounder for Sacramento, pretty interesting. Memphis is really good, but they've quietly, like Golden State,

also been awful on the road over the course of the season. Sacramento, pretty viable anywhere. Their offense travels pretty well. I wouldn't count them out of that. How about this? Are we sure Memphis is making it out of round one if it's Memphis-Minnesota?

Ouch! Continue to be impressed by Minnesota. They played really well. I mean, they look like a real playoff team, which was not always the case earlier in this season.

So Minnesota is showing some impressive things, even in some losses, like really fighting their way through some games. And look, I will take all of the Minnesota

versus Memphis chaos that we can get. We've seen this playoff matchup before. It was an absolute treat. I'll take as much as you want to serve me. Here's the thing though. The Conley-Russell thing has been

just so unbelievable for Minnesota. Conley's kind of having a moment again. It's a little like one of those older actors who you haven't thought about like Jamie Lee Curtis being in everything ever all at once. Like, ah, Jamie Lee Curtis. Good for her. Conley, same thing where, you know,

it just didn't seem like he was going to have a relevant playoff basketball moment again. Then there was stuff like he might get traded to the Lakers. Who knows? But now he's on this Minnesota team and he's played great. And I feel like he's semi-rejuvenated Gobert. Have you watched some of this Gobert stuff? And I think a big reason is Conley's just looking for him and thinking about him. And then, I don't know,

as you know, I'm not a huge Towns fan, but those two threes he hit against Golden State, I thought that was kind of a moment. Those were really big shots. They weren't easy shots. And I thought that was a good win. I just, I like what I'm seeing from them. And then the Edwards, Edwards is like kind of the Western Conference Mobley, right? Where he's probably not ready yet, but I also wouldn't be shocked

if he laid the smack down for like two nights in a row and just swung a series. That's the thing. If he's ready in two games of a series or three games of a series, it could really swing something. But you're right about the Wolves overall.

And look, you may not be thinking about Mike Conley, but I guess whatever the equivalent of the weirdo who has the Jamie Lee Curtis shrine in his houses, that's me with Mike Conley. I'm Mike Conley all day, all the time over here. So I'm thrilled to see him get this. And I think he's looked rejuvenated too. It's not just a matter of helping Gobert.

He's coming up with defensive plays. He really hasn't made in a couple of years. You know, Conley's dealt with injury stuff. He's getting to a different stage in his career. He's looked really good. He's given them exactly what he's, what the Wolves have needed. And on Gobert's part, especially defensively,

I think some of it is Conley and a guard who will get everyone in the right spots and just like manage things differently than Russell will. I think part of it too is having a team that's a little bit better equipped defensively so that it's not all on you all the time. It's very easy as a big to just get completely dispirited when guys are getting blown by. No one can contain. Everything is about your help. And Conley's on-ball defense has been good. Jaden McDaniels is an all-defense candidate this season. Edwards comes and goes a little bit, but has really strong moments. Kyle Anderson's played really good defense. Edwards has it in him. He definitely has it in him. But overall, they've

just been more stout on-ball, on the perimeter, containing guys. And so, I mean, I imagine Rudy Gobert is thrilled with that result, given, again, where the Wolves started and how bad their defenses looked and leaky at some stages in the season, both defensively and on the glass. They look like a totally different team rebounding the ball. You didn't even mention my number five MVP on my ballot, Nas Reed. Of course.

I'm just going to make him. If I can't come up with number five, I'm just putting Nas Reed. I'm going to be the one guy where it's like, wait, who voted for Nasrid? That was Simmons. It's a protest vote. I think that Minnesota team is really freaky. And when you take out Brandon Clark and the possibility of not having Adams as well, you know, I love the Memphis top four, but there's history with those two teams. Yeah. Not an easy one. Now, the other thing is they could, they could lose the seven, eight plan and go into the eight, nine plan and end up playing Denver where, um, that's a weird one because they would just have a bunch of big

dudes to throw a yokeage, right? They'd at least be able to, I don't know. They'd be throwing them at him. Like, would it do anything? Maybe it wouldn't work. Yeah. Maybe it wouldn't work. I wouldn't bet on that. On paper though,

those four matchups are unbelievable. Like I, I, this might be it. I might actually get divorced during these, during this first round. This could be it. Or at least it could be a trial separation.

I just, I'm not missing any of these games. There's not a single series other than maybe Milwaukee versus the Atlanta Toronto, which will be the MBT. Milwaukee versus blank is going to be our NBA TV special. That'll be our seven o'clock start. Announcers you've never heard of. Half time, a pregame show of people.

You're surprised they're doing playoff games. But other than that, just the tour de force. Denver Lakers, Memphis Minnesota, Sacramento Golden State, Phoenix Clippers. That's fucking awesome, those four, if we can get that, which means we won't. Something will get screwed up. But this is the East versus West conversation in a nutshell. The second round in the East is going to be diabolical. Just really great every night basketball. But the first round in the East is going to be diabolical. Just like really great every night basketball. But the first round in

the West, just like how many of these teams are competitive, are viable, have contrasting styles where they can push each other in ways that, for example, Minnesota can with some of these teams. Man, I love the way it's staggered out that way. And that's not to say that we're not going to get great series in the East

first round or the West second round just like falling through the cracks and turn out that way. And that's not to say that we're not going to get great series in the East first round or the West second round just like falling through the cracks and turn out that way. But that we have this baseline expectation where we're going to get really good matchups across the board

every single round. I'm loving it. I mean, the first weekend of NBA playoff basketball, that's the best weekend in sports. Like keep March Madness, keep whatever football weekend,

like I guess it'd be the Super Bowl or the NCAA championship. Save it. Like I want my four games a day from the minute I wake up until the minute I go to bed we didn't mention how Randall sprained his ankle and he's out at least two weeks in the two weeks overlap

with the potentially I guess he could be back for that weekend but not great and makes it even more enticing to play the Knicks in round one. Looked really painful too. I mean, it's two weeks and that might be optimistic. He may need more time than that. Yeah. We've learned not to trust these people when they tell us how long it's going to take. Trust no one. All right. So action-packed day. I have yet again flipped my

opinion on the Celtics. I haven't really. This is who they are. This is what they do. But I will say, I do like that their switch, their on-off switch, is a really, really, really good team that looks like a championship-level team.

So they have that. How many teams, before we go, how many teams do you think have that switch? Because I don't think the Lakers, as good as they've been time and time, I don't feel like they have a championship switch. To me, it's Milwaukee and Boston. Maybe Philly if they're healthy. Denver, I just don't know anybody in the West that they even have that ability.

Denver could be really good, but I always feel like... I only think of it as a switch. Yeah, I don't either. They just have to be on. They have to be on. They have to be healthy. Their guys have to be dialed in. Right now, they've had some slack to play with in the standings just because they had so much

of a lead, but we saw it catch up to them pretty fast fast and they started losing to some really bad teams. So I guess they do have a switch in that sense. But I think of them as a team that their baseline has to be pretty high.

In the West, in terms of like switch flipping teams, I think of Phoenix. I think of the Clippers. Phoenix and Golden State. I think Golden State, what they did to New Orleans,

that was criminal. That second half was crazy. They just stole, they stole the Pelican's soul in that game. And Golden State does have that in them. That second half was crazy. They just stole the Pelican's soul in that game. And Golden State does have that in them. I don't really trust a lot of what they do night to night, but they've got that gear. They've got some of the best lineups

and best combinations in basketball. It's just a matter of can they harness that as many times as it's going to take to get all the way through the West. I think the Clippers could beat the Suns. You think so? I do. That doesn't mean they will. But

I think that the last thing, and then we'll go, is just there's a really fun Kawhi versus KD. Oh, that'd be awesome. He's to that, where it's like yeah, for the forward position, the 21st century belonged to LeBron. And then Durant's probably

the number two choice. But then Kawhi hit this level that even, you know, KD never hit. And we just kind of, we just kind of get to file that away when we start thinking. Now, KD gave an interview today where he's like, I don't care about legacy. I don't talk about that. We compare people too much. I don't know. How do we have podcasts if we're doing compare players? We got to fill airtime here, Kevin.

Yeah, come on. KD, cut us some slack. But Kawhi versus KD for at least the last 15 years at the forward position. Those are probably the two guys, right? I guess Giannis is in there, but I don't even know what position Giannis is. the last 15 years at the forward position, those are probably the two guys, right? Well, especially... I guess Giannis is in there,

but I don't even know what position Giannis is. I don't... Yeah. What is he? I mean, he's technically just a big man, I guess. He's a Giannis, you know?

Yeah, he's a Giannis. He's really in his own group, but the fact that we could get... If all goes according to plan with Paul George's recovery, you know, you get KD and Kawhi, or sorry, KD and Kawhi, and you get Paul George and

Devin Booker trying to chase each other around in the same first round series. Again, just like an embarrassment of riches we could have if some of these guys can get and stay healthy. That's really all we're hoping for between now and the end. It's like, can we get some of these teams intact over the finish line? Also,

Chris Paul against the Clippers. Oh, yeah. Russell Westbrook against Durant. And against Chris Paul, who we always loved playing. They always had a little thing. And Westbrook beat him in 2014. He was better than him in that series. Which is a tough...

When you're doing the Chris Paul mosaic, the 2014 is a really tough one. And Westbrook was better in that series. You know what? Maybe Kevin Durant is right. Maybe we don't need the legacy talk for that. Like, our storylines overfloweth, as you're saying. Like, there's so many wrinkles to a series

like that. Maybe we can get through it without the legacy talk. KD loves it. I hate when he does stuff like that. Nobody loves basketball more than KD. And nobody is in more conversations where we talk about players. Like, he knows this is... He loves chopping it up. KD. Come on.

You love chopping up. All right. Rob Mahoney. We will redo on the ringer.com. See you on the ringer NBA show as well. Good to see you as artists. Thanks for staying up with us. Of course.

Thanks Bill. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Superbowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't

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Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, from the Ringer Wrestling Show, my old friend, David Shoemaker. WrestleMania this weekend. I don't remember how many times you've come on and talked WrestleMania with me,

but this is another one. It's a big one. It's LA. It's one of the biggest ones ever. Two days. There's a lot of off-the-ring drama. There's sale rumors we have no idea

if Vince McMahon is involved what is the biggest story for you? Well we're about a decade of me and you talking about

WrestleMania together so that's pretty crazy to think about but yeah I mean the outside of the ring drama is

definitely looming this week right? There's a lot of people who have been theorizing we have info on WWE getting sold like as soon as, like during WrestleMania weekend or as soon as it's over.

But, you know, in terms of what's going on in the ring, there's a lot of drama there too. I mean, the main event on Sunday night is Roman Reigns versus Cody Rhodes. And Roman has basically just been the anchor of this whole company now for a long time. I mean, he's been unified champion for a year, but, you know, he's held one of these belts for a thousand days. And in terms of storyline, it seems impossible.

You know, the question is, will he ever be deposed? But even in real life, you're thinking, how long could they just keep leaning on this guy? How long until this guy gets to take a vacation? Is it time to move on to a new face like Cody Rhodes? You know, there's a, there's a lot of big questions. So the odds are Cody Rhodes is going to win the title. And that's what was promised to him when he left a W and they were setting up and then his peck exploded all over the place and it got delayed for six months. It's unusual for them to have a champion for a thousand days. They like to mix it up. Yeah. But I mean, when you, when you get even nearly that far, you don't think about

the guy losing the title at a random episode of Raw. I mean, he's going to lose a title at a thing like WrestleMania, right? So even if this was the plan, despite the pec tear for Cody Rhodes, I think this was probably where we were supposed to end up. How's your pec tear? Is your pec tear better?

My pec's doing okay. Your pec's still good heading into a two-nighter? I had to adjust to a little bit more of a low-impact ring style, but everything so far, I feel good today. You mentioned that they might get sold. There's lots of rumors about this right now. Nick Khan was thrown out. He was already on this podcast.

He was on podcasts. He was on First Take today. He was on a bunch of different shows doing the whole face of the company thing, which was interesting because Stephanie is just out now, I guess. But they weren't using Triple H as the face either. So for now

it's Nick Khan. What are they trying to accomplish with all this stuff? From a big picture face of the WWE to the public standpoint, why have Nick Cotton be the guy that's out there doing all the interviews? What do you think

their reasoning is? Well, my opinion is that when you're trying to curry favor with wrestling fans or with just sort of people like me who are really interested in the sort of inner workings of the creative process,

that's when you put Triple H out there. He's a longtime wrestling fan. He could talk about growing up watching whoever on TV and he can talk about the thought process of making a creative decision, whatever. But when your audience is companies, CEOs, executives who might be putting in a bid for your company, then that's when you bring out somebody like Nick Khan,

who his number one objective out there would then be present the face of someone you would love to work with, right? Someone who you think could be an asset to your company in a way that even bigger than the acquisition of WWE would be. Look how great we're doing. Look how competent this guy seems. Mm-hmm.

And we have a whole two-day event in LA. It's going to be awesome. Look how competent this guy seems. And look how great we have a whole two day event in LA. It's going to be awesome. We're taking over. We're taking over Los Angeles for a week. It's not two days. I mean, we've, I got out of here on Tuesday. They've had, they've had important stuff to do every day of the week. What have you done so far? Well, you know, do interviews with wrestlers, but they just keep the whole thing. You know, there was a time when I first started covering wrestling at Grantland. There was all these indie wrestling events that sort of were scattered throughout the week. I remember I was in Miami and went to the first WrestleFest and got some autographs or whatever. And then more and more stuff

outside of WWE started springing up around WrestleMania. And a few years ago, WWE just made the decision, well, we're taking this back. There's still all the other stuff. It's still going on. But WWE plans the schedule, well, we're taking this back. There's still all the other stuff. It's still going on. But WWE plans the schedule, packs the schedule pretty tight with their own stuff now. They have two nights of WrestleMania. They have SmackDown on Friday. The Hall of Fame is after SmackDown. NXT is Saturday morning.

And then they got Monday Night Raw the night after WrestleMania. And it's all right here. They're just taking over. Yeah, I'm thinking the evolution of this from when I was a nerdy teenager and WrestleMania one was one of the highlights of my year because I didn't have a girlfriend. Um, and they were on the cover of sports illustrated and Mr.

T and Hulk hosted SNL and they had done a proof of concept with the MTV, the, the battle, the score to settle the, whatever the hell. The score and the brawls at all. score to settle the, whatever the hell it was. The war to settle the score. And the Brawls fans at all.

There were two different ones, but yeah. Yeah, Cyndi Lauper. And so they test drove it and then they actually went and they did it. And it was super exciting. It was also exciting that you could watch it from home. Like there was the early days of pay-per-view. Some people had to go to the theater, closed circuit to get it. Closed circuit for the first one, yeah.

Yeah, and then to watch it evolve over the years, peaking, or some would say cratering, with the seven-hour WrestleMania at Giant Stadium that I think people just died in the seats. I think they were just dead corpses being pulled off of their chairs in hour eight. And clearly something had to change. It had become too big for itself.

And the two night event thing was really smart. And I think it works. I like it. I didn't even, I was living in Brooklyn at the time and didn't go to giant stadium for that one. And, and was glad that I did.

And I was watching on my friend's couch and we weren't friends by the end of that. That's how long that show was. But the, but, uh, for rent. Yeah.

Uh, I, we, we've been saying, we'd been saying for a while they needed to go to two nights and it was good. They finally did. I mean, now it's, you know, especially when you're in a city like LA and it's like, you know, a journey to get to the stadium, it would be the same thing in New York, you know, and it does become like a real marathon weekend, but it's exciting too, you know? And they, they, I mean, Nick Khan was on first take today, unveiling the lineups for the two nights like that gets to be its own drama.

You know, I'm only going Saturday. My guy, Omos, they put him on Sunday. Now I don't. Now I might have to go Sunday. I don't know. I was so excited for Omos versus Lesnar. God damn it. They did a really good job of building out the card this year.

I mean, listen, there are a lot of people, myself included, who were a little skeptical of that match when it was first teased. But it's got a kind of appeal that nothing else on the card does. You know, it's like I remember talking to Bryan Danielson forever ago, and he was just like, you know, I was like, do you ever wish there was like 10 more Bryan Danielsons on the roster? And he was like, no, without the big show and Kane, like I would be meaningless. You know, like everything is the way everything is different.

It's all part of a variety show. And man, Omos versus Lesnar might be like the peak of variety. So he's listed 7'5 with wrestling, but how tall is he actually? How big Omos is? I mean, he's legitimately over seven feet. I mean, he was a basket. I think Ben, producer Ben looked it up and he was, I mean, his, his, you know, his basketball height and weight are listed online for when he was a college basketball

player. They say seven, three or something. So, I mean, he's a big, big man. Yeah, because you think the legacy of Giants, Andre, you know, the peak, but they've, they've messed with this a few times. The Big Show, they was listed him as whatever, but he was probably like, what, 6'9"?

I've stood next to him. 6'9", 6'10"? He's, you know, he's shrunk in his older age, but he was definitely wearing lifts at his peak, too. Diesel was listed as like, you know, huge, I forget what the actual height was. I think they said 6'10", but I don't... Yeah, 6'10", it was not 6'10". Hogan was always listed as like, you know, huge. I forget what the actual height was.

I think they said 6'10". Yeah, 6'10". It was not 6'10". Hogan was always listed at like 6'10", 6'9". He was like 6'3". He's lost a couple inches too, so over the years, but yeah. Yeah, they will add weight. Andre was being listed at 5'20", in his prime. There was no way he was 500.

7'4", 520 pounds. That's one of the way he was 500. Seven foot four, 520 pounds. That's one of the great things about Omos is he's actually like that big. Like when you see him, if you're backstage or whatever, you're like, oh my God. It's like seeing like Yao Ming or somebody and the fact that he's athletic.

I just felt like he was an untapped gem. I know in the ring of wrestling show, this has been, I know Kaz probably has the most stock, but I think all of us like all of us chipped in wait kaz is sitting right here what are you here we're talking to this one hey um yo brock versus omas has so much potential to steal the weekend for everything that you just said right like there's been such a history of like giants in the wrestling and not really being

that gigantic like especially when you see it in real life and i think now that the way wwe has permeated so many other like sports or any other uh forms of entertainment you can really judge size and brock lesnar is such a metaphor for size that anybody against him is automatically gonna look good especially at WrestleMania. Now you factor in Omos, who really is seven foot four, like over 400 something pounds, like just off the sheer spectacle of that, which is what is Vince McMahon's, you know, that's his wheelhouse spectacle. That has the potential to be something that we see in those signatures that they play over and over for the next several years. We see Hulk Hogan slamming Andre the Giant. Brock Lesnar is that for this generation.

So the ability to have that moment happen at a WrestleMania in Hollywood is massive. One of the things with Lesnar that's been an issue with him is they never can find the right opponents for him. Even when they had that whole thing where he's going to wrestle Stone Cold and WrestleMania. So I don't want to see him wrestle Stone Cold. Stone Cold's neck is made out of paper mache.

I don't want to see him get suplexed nine times. All he could do is like basically do the brawling stuff. This one, like if he can suplex Omos like even twice, that'll be the most memorable moment on sunday i think people really care more about the real stuff in pro wrestling and it sounds silly because wrestling's not on its face like real is not a legitimate sport but it's there's a reason why brock lesnar has taken the place of the andre the giants up to this point because he's yeah legitimately the most terrifying person in the world but But Big Omos is sort of the old school.

He's legitimately 7'4". He's really that, you know, he's a really big dude. And there's a bunch of reality built in there, too. You know, you look at him and you're like, oh, yeah, WWE is going to keep him on the payroll for the next 20 years, you know? So it's going to be really fun to see what happens. And if Brock can, like, throw, um, or even if it's just big old monster and Brock around, it's going to be cool to watch. Well, we've talked about this when you're in the room and it's 80,000 people in a football stadium, it's really hard to have an entrance where you feel like you have some real impact. And it's like, Whoa, this guy. Um, I. I think The Undertaker was always able to pull that off with the music and how he walked and he was big enough.

I mean, he's another guy who wasn't as big as he was listed, but he was big and it felt like a thing when he walked into the ring. But I was able to see Andre a couple times in the late 80s even as he was broken down. It was still a fucking thing when he walked into the building. It was like, Oh my God. Um, it's something that reigns as great as he is. It's cool when he comes in, but he doesn't totally have it. Cause it's not physically opposing Lesnar when he walks in, it's a moment, like there's just an aura and

a charisma about him. And it just seems like he's the most unstoppable guy you would ever wrestle in your life. Like he just, he's figured it it out i think almost kind of potentially could have that that's one of the things i'd be interested to see in a football stadium like will he have that energy it'll be interesting to see you know we talk on the show about the airport test you know i think kaz was talking about yesterday where it's just like do you do you stop traffic you know do people stop when you walk through the airport and say like holy, holy shit, who's that? Well, those are always the guys Vince loves the most. He loves, like, the huge bodies and he loves, like, the giant guys. And I think in addition to that, they've become more valuable now because the wrestling that really has been popularized, like, in the past 20 years has featured smaller guys, more quicker guys.

And that's just in all combat sports too, in the UFC and basketball, like it's become strong, like super fast and everything. So when you get like big, imposing, like traffic stopping size, especially now, it stands out more than it did before because everybody was kind of

sort of that big back then. Yeah, it's totally true. But you got, I mean, Brock, man, the few times I've seen brock lesnar in person i i mean i ran the other way like he was trying to beat me up and he didn't even know i was there yeah omas is i mean omas probably is gonna set the record for number of of photos taken with fans in the hotel lobby this week um roman reigns is a crazy thing so what wait what took so long with them because we were on

this three years ago why was he just not a good enough wrestler were they afraid of his skills you know what i mean like he's really young like i don't even think he's what 27 right now he's very young pretty young dude so even like even though he's like that big i think we kind of do the same thing in basketball right like when you know that guy who's six foot ten but he's in like the 14 he's 14 years old, you just wait for him to kind of like catch up to his body. But I think for wrestlers, it's kind of different.

They didn't really look at it like that. You know, like he came fresh out of college, you know, and anybody else who was at that age, I'd say for, I guess, Austin Theory, who's pretty young, but pretty advanced, they got to go through

that developmental system. So, you know, it doesn't help that he's 7'5", and he can't really hide that he's still learning how to wrestle but i think now like a heavyweight mma fighter you got you there's no one to spar with in the gym you know who's training you yeah but but it is i mean it is interesting it's it's going to take everybody anyone that size a little while to learn the ropes and he also did get put on tv super young that doesn't actually help your development to be put out there just because you look scary and you can chokeslam

somebody. It takes a while to learn. He was a bouncer for Raw Underground for a couple of weeks and then he was doing a bunch of other stuff. When you have somebody that big, you just throw them on TV because you get a reaction like he passes the airport just on TV every week. You can stop and do

7'4 and hilarious. I love when those big athletic guys can actually do stuff. There's this Instagram account that I follow. It's just ECW Clips. It's called that time in ECW. It's amazing.

ECW, I can't believe it was legal. That's how crazy some of the stuff is. Remember when Mike Awesome had that one-year run where he was actually awesome? Oh yeah. For, I don't know what happened to him. God only knows. But he was doing crazy shit.

Like Young Undertaker, same thing. When Undertaker, the early days of him, when he would walk down the middle of the rope and jump off, you're like, oh my God, how's somebody doing that kind of size? So it's always fun. I'm always going to like that more than the little guys, like the Ray Mysterio types. I'm just, I'm just always less impressed. I don't know why. I'm a snob about this stuff.

Well, listen, I mean, the real, I mean, Ray Mysterio is a legend, a living legend. I'm not, I'm not doubting. I'm just saying what I personally like. No, to me, to me, the great, the most magical part about Rey Mysterio is the fact that he's still doing it at his age, you know, after putting in so many years doing it. I mean, he had a he's had legit, like, match of the year candidates within the past 12 months, you know?

He's pushing 50, right? He's gotta be. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know. We're getting him Saturday night against his son. Yeah. Oh. And he's going to the Hall of Fame Friday. Friday he's going into the Hall of Fame, and Saturday's going into The Hall of Fame And Saturday he's gonna Take his you know Son to the

To the woodshed And try to teach him a lesson It's a Roy Mysterio's 48 years old Yeah Yeah 48 He's an old 48

He was wrestling when he was 16 He's gotta be older than that I don't believe that Oh my gosh He was in my first video game Alright so Let's do a draft Matches we're most excited about

Kaz you go first Number one is the tag team match it's going to main event looks like it's going to main event Saturday Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens versus the Usos

this is the story the Roman Reigns adjacent story that they've done the best job of telling we're all excited about Roman versus Cody on Sunday night

but Sami Zayn who was a former member of the bloodline yeah the you know the Roman Reigns faction, he split off from it. He reunited with his years old, I mean, his best friend of many, many years, Kevin Owens, and they're going to take down the Usos.

And by doing that, by taking their titles, they're going to help break up the Bloodline. The biggest, the most over person, the most popular person in the entire two night WrestleMania card is this skinny Canadian guy with a scraggly as hair and a beard that would look unkempt in Brooklyn. And he's, and he is,

uh, this is Sammy Zane. I'm talking about, and he's going to get the biggest reaction. The crowd loves him more than anybody. But somehow, somehow they didn't have the balls to make him the main event and put him on the poster and do that whole thing. Why not, Cass?

Well, I'll say because the 1A storyline of that is just as interesting. I think Paul Heyman had a lot to do with sort of tying both of those binds because obviously we mentioned the pectoral tear. That's a couple of months away. But the beauty in that pectoral tear was the building of this incredible bloodline story that started out with sammy zane kevin and everybody else so i think every wrestling fan had that drudging feeling of oh my god this is going to be the yes movement all over again this is going to be kofi mania all over again where we can just will sammy to the main event if we just hashtag enough or chant enough or do something like that.

But I think fans everywhere have grown such a respect for the storyline of Roman Reigns, the bloodline, and now, you know, putting the realism of Cody Rhodes going to WrestleMania, the link that between Dusty Rhodes and both of them and just being away from the company, not overtly saying he went to go build AEW, but overtly saying, you know, he went and did things that helped grow the overall health of the business, so I deserve to be in this spot.

He almost has a street cred that a lot of like The Rock probably wouldn't have in this sort of, you know, if they shoehorn The Rock into this main event right now, it would feel worse than shoehorning Sami in because the Bloodline storyline has been told so well.

Yeah. So, yeah. There's a way to look at it that they just did too good of a job with the Sami Zayn story and it's hard to criticize them for that, right? They told that story so well

that now people want him in the main event at WrestleMania. Well, all of your favorites can't be in the main event. I think that this tag team match Saturday night is going to feel worthwhile. And they've also done a great job of not making the titles the story. The story is friendship, loyalty, who's really family to you. The way they broke that whole thing down is what's made people invested in it.

They can care less about the tag team titles. Anybody who's followed Sammy and Kevin's career since PWG days when they were Kevin Steen and El Generico, that's the storyline that they're telling, as well as good as they made this Bloodline storyline work with

Jay and Sammy and their friendship as well. Add to the fact Jimmy and Jay are actual brothers. It's just a really well-told story on like family, loyalty, brotherhood, what it means to call somebody like your friend. Kevin Owens, incredible late bloomer run by him. It just seemed like he was going to be

the best version of a glorified jobber ever about two years ago. Where it's like, remember what was that website I sent you that had the wins and losses of all the wrestlers? It by far the most losses but the most fun matches Well, okay, so we do these stats on wrestling.theringer.com

and you figure out when you start looking into them pretty quickly if you're actually looking at wins and losses the worst thing you can be is a heel that comes to work every day because you're going to lose at every house show in every small town because just the crowd wants to see you get your butt kicked. But you're right. I mean, Kevin Owens was, you know, he's not quite a jobber to the stars,

but there's a version of events where he's never, you know, where he's not a long-reigning champion. I never felt like he was going to get a push in a real way ever. Yeah, well, he was, one of the worst things you can be sometimes, one of the worst things you can be sometimes in pro wrestling is extremely good at your job. Because if you're extremely good at your job

and you're not, and you don't, whenever your moment to catch fire is, if it passes you by, well, they're always going to see you as like a plan B, you know? And it's like, oh, well, we just need somebody to fill out

a couple of months with Roman Reigns. Let's put Kevin Owens in there. Or you know what? We of months with Roman Reigns. Let's put Kevin Owens in there. Or you know what? We need someone to compete for the IC title. Put Kevin Owens in there. But I think that really, I mean, in some way,

if the show is being written, is being booked correctly, real talent and real connection with the fans wins out. And I think that's what we're seeing with Kevin and Sami Zayn. Are we sure people still care about John Cena, Kaz?

He's the main eventer against Austin Theory, a very polarizing guy. I don't think he's that polarizing. I just think the Austin Theory push has been so overt that John Cena being in this match is almost irrelevant, right? It's like, you know he's not staying.

It's like, you know he's not going to beat him for the US title, right? So he's almost just doing the honors it almost feels like okay before we can really you know accept austin theory as the next sort of uh main eventer you know what i mean like he has to go through a guy like john cena right now right and that's all he's really there to do you know um i don't think anybody going into this match is, you know, thinking this is going to be something that, you know,

people go and watch WrestleMania for. Like, I have to watch that John Cena match. It's just almost like he's doing him a solid. Yeah.

I gotta be honest. I'm a threat to leave during that match. That's why they're putting on first. That's why they're putting on first. Yes.

No, listen. Oh, I thought it was last. No, it's first. The worst thing you can possibly, there's nothing fans hate more in pro wrestling than predictability.

Because it's a scripted thing. You want to be shocked. You want to be surprised. You want to have your emotions played with. So when you're a wrestler like John Cena during his heyday that everybody said he's going to win every match, you get tired of him.

You start booing him. And when there's a match where you feel like you 100% know the outcome, then that can get the fans kind of mad too. And it's also a perfect time to not do that too, right? It's also a perfect time to just say, you know what? John Cena's got a few movies

he's promoting this year. Let's throw the US title on him. You know what I mean? To just carry it around. Maybe he'll win. Maybe. You know? But that's the thing. But I think like the overwhelming thought process on John Cena

in this match is he's kind of doing the honors for Austin Theory, right? He's doing him a solid. Yeah, he's doing him a solid. All right, so let's take a quick break and then just come back quick

and I want to do some quickie questions for people that barely watch wrestling. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah. Be safe.

Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all.

Trains move quietly. So you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See safe riding sets an example. Yeah. An example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay. Give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. Ugh. This message

is brought to you by Metrolinks. For the casuals who barely follow what's going on, I think most important is that that guy who used to be Walter is now Gunther and he's kind of a thing. They'd name switched him. My son loved him as Walter. I've told this story about my son a few years ago, who now he'd probably like kill me if he did this, but he's through the Walter chest slaps on me and they really hurt, but I was still bigger than my

son. I could fend him off. Now, if he did that to me, I'd probably end up in the hospital. Yeah. But he's just now Gunther. Why did this happen? Shoemaker? What, what was the purpose of changing his name? Well, there's a couple of things at play. One is the sort of like IP question of like, well, he was Walter on the Indies. He's Walter before. If we make him Gunther, that will be the, we own it. And it's not just a legal thing. The sort of like more metaphorical like he's ours now right uh and i think that there are probably people who rightly looked at the name walter and was just like that's a geek's name that's not a scary person's name i thought that was part of the charm though his fucking name was walter it was hilarious we're not making these

decisions i'm just saying what i think somebody probably did the first time i sell the name walter in all caps on the internet, I was like, what? Like, is this ironic? I'm not quite sure. I call him Gunther. I don't care if it's Gunther. I'd say Gunther.

Sorry. It's fine. You can call him whatever you want. All he cares about is that you're going to remember the state of his opponent's chests after he like turns them into raw hamburger meat. It's got to be, it's a top three gimmick. The chest slap. What's the number one gimm it's a top three gimmick, the chest slap. What's the number one gimmick

right now, Kaz? Oh, man. Like chest slap is definitely in the conversation, but it's not number one. You know, honestly, low key, it might be

Seth frickin' Rollins and, you know, the, oh. Oh, yeah. Like the sing my song that he's doing right now, it's starting to be their new yes chant, right?

Like it might be a thing that sort of starts to, you hear in baseball stadiums or football games and stuff like that. And, you know, Seth Rollins, you talk about Kevin Owens having a great second, you know, run or a late bloomer. Seth is kind of in that mode right now, you know? Usually they change your theme music when you turn heels

so that fans will stop singing along, you know, so that fans will and and they gave him this like gothic choir and now everybody's singing along yeah he's one of the most lovable bad guys uh in the in the whole business it's true i mean you know finn baller is coming out in his demon makeup for his hell in a sun match with edge on sunday that's gonna be that's always a fun thing to see in person and to see them try to pull off. I'm not, you know, the hair thing is really good in person. Oh, way better than I expected.

Well, we haven't talked at all in any of our shows about potential big entrances. There's going to be some people that get these big epic WrestleMania entrances and Bianca has had hers or last year was absolutely bonkers. Beast. Yeah. There is Bianca Belair is, has a huge future,

but is, is an amazing piece of the present right now. And I think watching her watching her on a stage like WrestleMania is when you realize how how big of a deal she is in real time. And it's going to be really cool to just see her come out, to see her absorb that adulation from the fans and whip her ponytail. And it's going to it's going to be insane. And then Logan Paul, a better wrestler and performer in a football stadium than I think any of us ever imagined. I'm actually looking forward to that match.

It's so crazy that you can just come out of nowhere and be as good at pro wrestling as he is. And it's awesome to watch as a wrestling fan. Yeah. But it's also really irritating to watch as a wrestling fan because people who don't pay attention now think that wrestling's easy again. I spent a decade trying to convince everybody

that wrestling is like the hardest sport you can put your body through in the world. And Logan Paul comes in and figures it out overnight. Like he's just like some sort of genius with a Rubik's cube. It makes sense though, because he was a natural influencer slash performer just day after day on YouTube and Instagram, everywhere else.

So I guess that part translates. The athleticism I wasn't prepared for. No, the athleticism is just bonkers. If anybody saw him in the Royal Rumble, him and Ricochet each jumped off one rope on opposite ends of the ring, jumped through the air and collided halfway. Nobody's ever done it before. No one can do it. No one can do that.

I mean, listen, the list of people who could do that now is vanishingly small. The list of people who could do that 10 years ago is zero. You know what I mean? It's not, I mean, Shane McMahon couldn't, and Rob Van Dam could do that coast to coast spot, but nobody's jumping up in the air like that.

I'm excited to see Rhea Ripley too in person, just like from an entrance kind of charisma standpoint, because she's always has that kind of crazy psychotic look thing that she does to the crowd that I think is effective. It's a good one. We haven't seen a female wrestler really pull off that kind of energy before. Well, if she wins, we've talked about this a lot on the Masked Man show. If she wins, she's going to be the one person in her faction,

Judgment Day, holding a world title. And it's not just, I mean, talking about women wrestlers in new and interesting roles, she will be like the, she will be like the godfather of that faction by default because she's going to have

this big belt around her waist. And she's, I mean, she's a perfect example of someone who's just like coming to their own by sort of embracing the,

like Stone Cold Steve Austin would always say, it's like your real personality with the volume turned up, you know? I mean, she's just, she has become something,

one of the most magical performers in the company just by leaning into her own personality and leaning into just the sort of silliness of her and Dominic Mysterio's on-screen relationship. It's been so fun to watch. Well, somehow we're getting Seamus, but I'm missing that day. The Seamus thing,

somebody's got to explain it to me at some point. It's like the Jeff Green of WWE. That he just hangs around? Just keeps going and going. That's a great comparison. It's like, oh my God, Jeff Green's playing 20 minutes in a playoff game again.

But here's the thing. And then he catches a body on somebody. Yeah, but it's like if Jeff Green were like briefly in the MVP conversation. Sheamus has had match of the year

candidate matches last year. I don't understand it. It's crazy. Well, listen, talk about a gimmick. Maybe there's no gimmick on WrestleMania weekend that's better than, it's not the chop, it's Sheamus' chest as the target of the chop.

It's like a yokage. He gets the yokage body. The slaps just look better on his weird pale body. He's going to look so gross. I interviewed him after a match a couple months ago. I was backstage and he came in and sat down and I was just like i'm sorry for doing this man like i don't want to i feel so bad uh but yeah it's he he's he has had quite a renaissance and it's been really really fun to watch the thing that we keep hearing and kaz can you guys can tell you i think

that we keep hearing we talk to these people this weekend and over the past year is that i think every wrestler is something somehow embracing a newfound appreciation for just being part of the show and bringing up the people around them and understanding that my bloody chest is as valuable and as meaningful as me hoisting a title above my head. And it's really cool to hear about.

We need to get there at the ringer too, I feel like. Same thing. Your bloody chest is all of our bloody chests. Yeah, I get it. I almost feel like because of Roman Reigns and his long title reign, you have to kind of find other things to get up for work, right? So every little thing sort of matters a little more.

So I would say you mentioned the bloody chest, right? That Clash at the Castle match between Gunther and Seamus probably was their match of the year. And it was something that like, you know, I remember being here last year and like running into Seamus and basically having a conversation where he thought he might be done. He was like maybe like a couple more months, like maybe a year or two or whatever. Like he was like seriously considering, you know, stopping wrestling. And then like after having that conversation with him and then seeing him have like match of the year with like this other rising, you know, UK wrestling star and now having a marquee match for a title at

WrestleMania, that's probably one of the cool underreported stories like going into this, right? Like the fact that, you know, these guys who have won world titles and probably in other times, like Drew McIntyre or Sheamus,

would want to, you know, be fighting for a WWE championship. There's other things and other prides in the stories that they're telling that are making it more exciting for WrestleMania. So talking to Braun yesterday, talking to Bayley today,

they're all just like really excited to, you know, be a part of it right now, you know? So I think it's been really cool to see. Give me predictions for surprise people that aren't supposed to be in the card. Surprise show up people

because you know they'll have at least one, possibly two. Probably one with an LA connection. Yes. So we got two nights of WrestleMania and then you have to factor in Monday night raw after WrestleMania. Is it, is it, is one of the biggest surprise show of nights of on the wrestling

calendar. So you can know if I told you with a hundred percent certainty that let's say Randy Orton will be back this weekend. We don't, there's still a lot of questions as to when that might be, but I think Orton might be there. Um, you know know stone cold

steve austin and the rock are always floating like their names are always hovering around wrestlemania um and the rock had been rumored to be wrestling here for the longest time so i i don't imagine he's going to show up as a surprise but maybe i'm still holding that hope man like i have i have no way of of how you work him into this show but i just gotta believe you know what i mean like you tied the super bowl appearance we know we know how they would work a man he would be in don't you think he would show up in the usos match um he'd be part of the usos be part of the rock cody roads but the problem is when people have been fantasy booking you into the match for so long it's gonna feel like a letdown if you're just there to like yeah you know get

the crowd going um but yeah there's a lot you're just there to like, you know, get the crowd going. But yeah, there's a lot of there. There are a lot. There's some other people who are on the verge of coming back to who are AJ Styles. There's one that we mentioned. I mean, there's there. There's some good wrestlers. I don't know.

Jay White rumors. Oh, yeah. There's a Jay White who's a who's a an American wrestler who has made his name in Japan is probably the biggest sort of free agent. Yeah. And there have been rumors about him, but he feels more like a Monday night debut. Right. Right. There's a lot of Shane O'Mac,

right? Shane O'Mac not happening. No chance. I don't even know the right way to answer this question, but I don't, I don't know what kind of reaction they get, but if they, but if we're just going for like,

holy shit moments. Yeah. I mean, they have the biggest possible names are all McMahons. Yeah. I mean, everybody in the McMahon family would certainly get a reaction that no, that would rival anything else on the card.

A McMahon family versus LeBron James family, four on four family match. Just penciled in. We heard, we heard today, Stephen A. Smith is going to be in attendance as a fan. So that's a pretty big one too.

Oh, like a Stephen A. McAfee type of oh man I don't know you could you if you should go over and slap him in the face that's a feud that everybody wants Stephen A. would have been an unbelievable wrestling manager I mean he really would have he would have been like straight out of the 80s him in like

a Paul Heyman role would kill right now you know he can get anybody any if he gets to go in his Stephen A-isms on literally anybody, any wrestler, that wrestler would be immediately over the next day. He would only need to do it once, too.

I'm kind of looking forward to that. As Shoemaker knows, this is, to me, the biggest missed opportunity with wrestling for the last 10 years is they've thrown away the manager role. The manager, there should be... In the 80s, there were like six awesome managers and they were all really helpful and useful in all these different ways. I just can't believe they don't see that.

Before we go, Kaz, I got to ask since you're on here, you're the only person I know at the highest level of wrestling and NBA, the combo. It's pretty rare. I appreciate that. Do you like that ex-NBA players have now turned into professional wrestlers? Yeah. The way they go at each other

and they all have these podcasts now and these feuds come up that we didn't know about. And now there is literally no difference between like Gilbert Arenas and pick anyone from the 90s, Mick Foley, just going on some podcast and lighting up like five people that they played for against. How did this happen? When did we get here? When did this, when did this blur? I think we're all sort of children of the attitude era, right? Like, you know, the Austin rock era is just so ingrained to

the 20, 30, 40 something year-year-olds of our current generation that the one thing we sort of took away from everything about that era is, yeah, we remember the matches, but what we really remember is the shit talk, the promos, like going back and forth. And I think not just the NBA, but sports everywhere have figured that out.

Like, we can watch you be as athletic as possible, but if I don't have any heartfelt reason to grow to to root for you or against you i'm only so interested right and that's one thing that the nba has really figured out right like we love rivalries we love uh you know uh having a bad guy we love we love having a team that we all point at and say those guys suck whether it's the miami heat or the you know the memphis grizzlies right now like the new england patriots We love having a team that we all point at and say, those guys suck, whether it's the Miami Heat or the Memphis Grizzlies right now. The New England Patriots.

Yeah, the New England Patriots. There's so many elements of pro wrestling in not just the NBA, but in all sorts of sports that there's a reason why it's been so successful for so long because there's regular human elements that we all use to tell basic storytelling that have worked throughout time. And pro wrestling has done that for so long that it doesn't even look like

something that they came up with. When you're seeing Draymond green go at, uh, Dylan Brooks. Right. We can post too. Yeah. I don't like to get the Gilbert arenas class and those people.

Shoemaker. We need this type of media where rick riley just starts ripping john feinstein for no reason we're like whoa what's going on here there's just like a whole thing i mean it happens social media has sort of uh you know fast forwarded that right like yeah you know the tweet the clapbacks you know what i mean like that's all promos that's all selling drama that's all selling interest well and yeah you got you got some guys you got jason whitlock's out there trying to work heel you know he's like he's trying to do this listen uh i think that we're i think everybody i think cas is right we're all children of the

attitude era and i think the reason why someone like logan paul can pop up in wwe and immediately make so much sense is that everything about everything is pro wrestling now everything the the the things that make people super successful on social media are the things that make people great wrestlers, you know? And, and, and for people who are old, like us, sometimes you look at it and you're like, this doesn't make any sense. But I think for people of like your kids generation, there's no, it makes perfect sense. They don't stop for a second to think about it.

They can hold two things in their head at the same time, you know? And, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I think that that's why we see it in the NBA and in wrestling and everywhere else too. sense. They don't stop for a second to think about it. They can hold two things in their head at the same time. I think that that's why we see it in the NBA and in wrestling and everywhere else too. I might have my son show up for Saturday night just going tank top and overall, something like that. Looking like he might come into the ring. I think that's going

to be his vibe on Saturday. He's not that far away. He's going to be in WrestleMania in six years. Isn't that how they booked Canadian Earthquake his vibe on Saturday. He's not that far away. He's going to be in WrestleMania in six years. I was going to say, isn't that how they booked Canadian Earthquake onto the show? He was just a guy

sitting in the crowd. Like, who's that guy out there? Yeah, come in here. Yeah, that's a great old wrestling trope. Ben's going to be great. I thought you were asking about basketball players

actually becoming wrestlers and we were just joking around off camera. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. That's what I said immediately. We were talking off mic about whether Ben Simmons,

the basketball player, should go into professional wrestling. It's like, maybe that's the next move for him. He just keeps getting scratched right before matches and cards. Maybe it's a better line

of work for the guy. You know, he knows how it's going to end before he goes in. A lot of the current guys could do it. Like Draymond, Patrick Beverly, Dylan Brooks would be a great, he's trying. A lot of the current guys could do it. Draymond, Patrick Beverly,

Dylan Brooks would be a great... He's trying to be a wrestling heel. They should do it. It's probably less taxing on the body after a while. You probably don't have to work as many matches. Do a Logan Paul deal where you sign up for four matches, show up just for the stadiums, and then get your check and be out.

Why not? Westbrook would be a good wrestler where it's like, this guy, he used to be famous. He still thinks he's the shit. His matches aren't good. He's super polarizing. Then there'll be other people going, no, no, he actually does have good matches.

People deserve him. Look at the numbers. Every once in a while. Never gets hurt. Super durable. That's what you need as a pro wrestler. I mean, Dwight Howard tried out just recently

to wrestle. He was at the NIL tryouts with Big E. At SummerSlam, yeah. At SummerSlam. And, you know, he cuts a lot of promos. Probably needs to sharpen

it up a little bit, but he definitely has the body to do it. Yeah, well, you got a lot of money. It's probably weird to think about going on the road full-time

with WWE, but man, it would be fun if some of those guys did it. Well, that's the thing with Logan Paul, right? He could be one of their best assets, but he would make way more money not doing wrestling and doing the 19 other things he could do.

All right, guys, I'll see you this weekend. Good WrestleMania recap. Can't wait for it. Two days, it's going to be this weekend. And you can listen to the Ring of Wrestling show. You made your predictions. What was that, today? Part one is today.

Part two is tomorrow. And some interviews, too. Ring of Wrestling show. You made your predictions. What was that, today? Part one is today. Part two is tomorrow. And some interviews, too. Lots of interviews. Lots of other shows. We have so much content. I can't even keep track of it on there. I will see you at the

football stadium with my bodyguard, Ben Simmons. Thanks for coming on. All right. Thanks for having us. Thanks, Will. All right. That's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Mahoney and Shoemaker and Kaz. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti. Don't forget, I'm going to be on the Prestige TV podcast right after Succession ends on Sunday night with Joanna and Sean. And I will see you with Rosillo later that night on Sunday. Have a good weekend.