The Bill Simmons Podcast - Charles Barkley on Ben Simmons, Zion’s Flaws, the Center Revolution, Adam Silver, and the Nets vs. the Lakers

Episode Date: February 16, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by NBA legend and analyst Charles Barkley to discuss Draymond Green's comments on the Cavaliers and Andre Drummond, Barkley getting traded to the Suns in 1992, learning from Moses Malone, NBA title contenders in the East, Zion Williamson, how the Nets match up with the Lakers, whether there should an NBA All-Star Game this year, the Olympics, and much more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Then we have another one coming up on Wednesday. Coming to America about a month before the new one comes out. Me and Van Lathan and Wesley Morris broke it down. So two rewatchables this week. Hope you're listening to our new Sports Cards podcast. Sports Cards nonsense. The industry has gone bonkers, and our hosts Gio and Jesse are breaking it down twice a week.

Sports Cards nonsense coming up. Charles Barkley, he hasn't been on in a long time. I don't know what took so long for me to invite him, but I'm glad he was here. It's a up. Charles Barkley. He hasn't been on in a long time. I don't know what took so long for me to invite him, but I'm glad he was here. It's a great conversation. We hit just about every NBA topic imaginable. It's all next first. Pearl Jam. All right, the pride of Leeds, Alabama is here, Charles Barkley.

Good to see you. You look happy and healthy. I'm happy and healthy, man. Thanks for having me. Lots of basketball stuff going on. Let's start here. This is fresh. This is hot off the press.

Draymond Green last night did this whole rant about the Cavaliers basically not resting Andre Drummond as much as just not playing them until they figure out a trade for him. And he was working out for the game. Then he goes in the back. And Draymond did this whole double standard thing about organizations, doing what's trade for him. And he was working out for the game. Then he goes in the back and Draymond did this whole double standard thing about organizations. They're what's best for them.

But then when a player does what's best for the player, everyone gets mad at the player. Why do we have this double standard? Did you follow that? And what did you think of that whole rant? Well, I think Draymond has to really be careful. All that stuff is cute when you're winning.

But when you're in last place, it's annoying. They're trying to protect their asset, and they're going to trade him. So you don't want a guy making $30 million on your cap if he gets hurt for the next couple years. So they're doing what's best for them. But I think Draymond has got to start learning to understand. You can say what you want to when you're the champ in first place.

When you're in last place, you become the guy who becomes annoying. Right. But at the same time, of all the guys in this generation, he's the one that most reminds me of you 30 years ago with how outspoken you were. I mean, it's probably something you would have done 30 years ago. Well, I think there's a difference. The difference between me is he's on a really good team. I was a great player.

There's a double standard on that. When you're a great player, you can say and do what you want to do. When you're on a good team, you can say and do what you want to do. But when you're in last place, you have to stand down. He hasn't learned that yet. Interesting. Well, you do TV with him, and so you guys have, I think,

it seems like a complicated but fun relationship, right? You respect each other, but you go at each other. No, I said some things about him, but I think that sometimes he don't appreciate the guys he play with. He's a good player. I like him as a person. But, you know, I think sometimes he starts to think that he is a great, great player. So that's the only time we have to disagree,

but he's a nice kid and I like him. When you think about how certain players are treated these days, when they do stuff like either quit on their team or try to maneuver, how to jump team, stuff like that. Like what we saw with Harden at the beginning of this season compared to when it happened in your era, when guys weren't happy and trying to get their way out. What's the biggest difference between your era and now? Guys never want to get out in my day.

You played, you did your job, but you got paid a lot of, well, not what they get paid today. You got a lot of money to play. You just do your job. And if they trade you, they do what they don't. I don't remember any guys in my day forcing their way out of a situation. You know, Reggie Miller stayed in Indiana.

Dominique Wilkins stayed in Atlanta. You know, Michael Jordan didn't win for a long time. He didn't say, hey, I can't beat the Pistons. He got better as a player. You know, he didn't win a championship. There's like eight years in the league. That's what's really funny about these guys today. If they don't win a championship until like eighth year in the league. That's what's really funny about these guys today. If they don't win a championship

in like the first three or four years, like, well, I need some help. I'm like, well, everybody needs some help. But it's just a double, it's a difference. Like I say, Michael Jordan didn't win his first championship until he was 28 years old, his eighth year in the league. But you never heard him complain. You saw that documentary. He's like,

I got to get better. I got to get better. I got to get better. So I think that's the biggest difference. Well, think about 30 years ago, right? The two guys who I think were in kind of the worst basketball situations for what their talent was, were you and Hakeem. And Hakeem, there was one point, I think heading into the 93 season, he had that awesome run where 93, he was an MVP candidate. Then 94, 95, he wins. But in 92, he was unhappy. He didn't have any help. There was rumors they might trade him.

You're in the same situation with Philly. Your team wasn't bad, but the league was awesome back then. So you have Hersey, Hawkins, Dawkins, basically nobody at center, and you're a 44 win team, but you would have stayed. The reasons you got traded had nothing to do with you wanting to get out of there. It was, there was other shit going on, right? Well, I think the main thing, man, I have an obligation to the fans.

You know, I think you have more obligation to the fans than you do to the team. I mean, you never really see the owner. You see the coaches and the players and the fans than you do to the team. I mean, you never really see the owner. You see the coaches and the players and the fans. So no matter where I played, I felt a special obligation for the fans to give them the best that I could. I mean, look, first of all, I mean, if every star all play together,

why we have the league? I mean, I can say, you know, that was a difference. Like, Patrick Ewing, thank goodness he didn't say, I want to get out of New York. He didn't play with a lot of great players. You know, Reggie Miller, I think it's fair to say he didn't play with

a great player. Dominique Wilkins, same thing. I'm trying to think. You know, Ralph Sassson is probably, you know, he got, that's probably the closest Hakeem came to playing with a great player in his

career. Yeah, he had Drexler the second season, but it was a little bit of a different Drexler. It was probably 85% what he used to be. I mean, Gary Payton was a great player. He had Sean Kemp. So, listen, hey, we all want to win, but at what cost? And to me, I felt a special obligation to those fans in Philadelphia,

and I was going to give them everything I had every night. And, hey, if we didn't win, we didn't win. Right. Well, what do you think happened when you look back? Why did you get traded? Was it some of the off-the-court stuff, like the incident with the fan? Did you feel like the media was against you? What were the

reasons that led to them basically giving you away for 40 cents on the dollar? Because that trade is crazy to look back on now. Well, they got four players. I mean, that's fair. They got four guys for me. You were the best five players in the league. Yeah, but they got four players.

First of all, it was their fault for making bad trades and not drafting. Yeah. I love playing in Philly. Still have a house there. It's a great city. But they just didn't know what they were doing. I had made up my mind

that I was not going to go back there. But I kept it on the down low. I did not talk to them privately because I didn't want to alienate the city of Philadelphia. But I said, listen, because what happened was, to be honest with you, I had went through two years where basically every team in the NBA was trying to get me. I mean, I remember being on the cover of the Sports Illustrated one time. I know, Sporty Doos. They had me in 10 different uniforms on the cover. So me and my family went through two years of every single day having to hear bullshit. So finally, at the end of that eighth year, I told him, I said, hey, listen, I'm not coming back here. I want to do it in a private, professional way, but I'm never coming back here again.

And I got traded that summer. Well, think about if we had the apparatus we have now in 2021, in 1992, it would have come out that you're unhappy right things would have gotten leaked social media all this stuff it would have been i feel like a much bigger story that you were clearly not happy with your situation yeah but i still think that like listen if you're in a city one or two years i think that's a little bit different i spent my first eight years in philadelphia i had a connection with the fans. The fans have always treated me great. Actually, to a certain degree, the media,

they were always supportive of me. They realized the Sixers were a shit organization back then. I mean, we had the number one pick in the draft and gave it away for nothing. I mean, you don't do that. I remember that vividly. I knew that actually started the downfall of my Philadelphia career.

You know, I was just becoming a star. We had the number one pick in the draft, and they gave it away for number one, a guy who never played with me, Jeff Rulon. And they traded Moses, who was still playing for another five years, who was my mentor. And we got Cliff Robinson and Roy Henson from Cleveland.

Wait, you mixed all this up. Those trades were so bad, you couldn't even remember how... Wasn't it the number one pick for Roy Henson and then it was Moses for Jeff Ruhland and Cliff Robinson, right? It was the same trade. Yeah, but it was two at the same time. Yeah, it was two at the same time.

It happened the same day. I remember getting a call like at 5.30 in the morning from Phil Jasner, a great fellow at Devin Riley. He says, we actually had been out drinking, celebrating, getting number one pick in the draft. I'm thinking like, guys, when I get Brad Doherty here, we're going to be kicking some ass for the next 10 years. I remember it vividly.

I remember I got home and I was drunk, and I got a phone call around 5.30 in the morning from Phil. He said, Charles, what do you think about the trade? I said, Phil, what are you talking about? He says, the Sixers trade is the number one pick in the draft. I said, tell you what, Phil, let me get up, take a shower, get my sense together

because I know the Sixers are not that stupid to trade the number one pick in the draft. And I took a shower and calmed down. And I said, because Phil was always just a great reporter. He says, you traded the number one pick in the draft for Roy Henson. And then he says, it gets worse. He said, you traded Moses to Washington and who put Jeff Rulon,

who hadn't played in two years, and Cliff Robinson. And I'm just like, from that point on, I knew I was doomed in Philly. But I still gave them everything I had. But man, that was the beginning of the end. You know, it's a great fork in the road, what if, that there's been so many what ifs over the years in the NBA. That's a really good one, though, because Doherty, until he got hurt,

he was really good for nine years. I mean, he was, especially in a league where you had a ton of centers, he was really flexible. He could have played forward or center for you. They had just done nothing. If the organization had just like basically been like, we're going to Alaska. Just, we'll just, just give us Brad Doherty. Don't do anything else. Then you would have had you, Brad Doherty, and Moses. And I think you would have been good.

We would have been really good. I mean, Brad was an all-star a bunch of years. And at that time, I'm only like 24, 25, and I'm just becoming an all-star. And I actually made the all-star team the next 11 years. So I was just starting to beat Charles Barkley at the time. And don't forget, we still had Hurston Hawkins and Johnny Dawkins.

And we still won a couple games off the Bulls. They beat us. I mean, obviously, they got beat by the Pistons. So if they had not did anything and just bought in Brad Doherty, we would have been really good for the next 10 years. Well, the other funny thing is, so that's

86. The Celtics have just won the title with this McHale-Parish-Bird front line. And Houston makes the finals with Samson Olajuwon. And everybody's like, you got to get bigger. You got to get bigger. Philly had the chance to just

have Doherty and Moses together to battle all these other Twin Tower things. That was pretty terrible. Well, because the Celtics, I think at that point, the Celt That was pretty terrible. Well, because the Decepticons, I think at that point, the Decepticons were almost done. No, no, in 86 they weren't

because they thought they were getting Len Bias with the second pick. I'm saying once Len Bias died, unfortunately, they were all past their prime. So we knew it was going to be the Bulls and the Pistons for the next 10 years, which it was. Right. knew it was going to be the Bulls and the Pistons for the next 10 years, which it

was. Right. Which it was. So we felt I felt really good going forward with Brad Doherty. I mean, I was on cloud nine. I'm like, man, I'm finally going to get some help. Because my centers were Manute Bowl. Right in the

late 80s. Yeah. Yeah. I went to war with Manute Bowl as my center. And as much as I love Manute Bowe. Right in the late 80s. Yeah. Yeah, I went to war with Manute Bowe as my center. And as much as I love Manute, you know, we had no chance. It'd be like Taco Fall right now if you had Taco Fall as your center. Well, you know, I like Taco. I was on a podcast the other day.

I actually think the Celtics should play him. I think they need to do something a little weird with their roster. Every time he comes in, and you saw it when you had Manute. When he comes in, the other team is discombobulated. There's this huge guy in the middle that they have to think about. Well, I said something about the Celtics the other night. They got to do something because right now they're just mediocre. They're not contenders.

They got to do something. Ainge has got to do something. Ains has got to do something because the way they're currently constructed, they're just an also-ran. Yeah. Well, the East, there's such a drop-off after the top three. I want to talk about it in a second. One more thing on 86. Did you think there was a chance they were going to take

Lembias? No. I don't think Len came out that year. No, no. Brad Doherty was one. Lembias was two in the 86 draft. Wow. You know, man, is that okay? No. His name never came up.

I mean, I didn't... No. I think they always had their minds set. But first of all, the answer to your question is, I don't know what the fuck they were thinking because they didn't think Brad was going to get it. I mean, they told me the whole time they were going to take Brad Darden.

I was excited for that because with his high post skills and my low post skills, and he could go down low and I could go up high. I mean, it was a nice combination because he was good enough to post up, but he was a great passer. And, man, you know, I always tell people that's probably the biggest regret of my career, not getting a chance to play with Brad. Well, bias is the biggest regret slash what if of my career as a basketball fan,

putting him on the Bird-McHale team. And to me, you think like the career you had, the career Karl Malone had, and you think like, you know, all-star, top five, top six players in the league, but also the best power forwards, and you guys are kind of linked in some way. And Baez could have been kind of the third guy

in that group from your generation, and he's dead two days after the draft. But I really feel like he was that talented that he could have been discussed that way if he could have gotten his shit together off the court. Yeah, he was really, really talented. It was going to be interesting what position he played because he had a nice little combination,

but you can't really judge guys like that until you see them in person because he had the body of a three-man, so he would have been a tough matchup for guys. In the post, he looked skinny on television. I never got the opportunity to meet him in person. But back then, that power forward thing was no joke. Yeah. That was no joke.

That was the position. You're going to get the hell beat out of you every single night. And that's just the way it is. Not just Carl. You got Kevin McHale, who's the best player I ever played against. He's a nightmare in the post and on defense.

It was no joke. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too.

You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. Zion versus you. 1986 1986 charles year two versus uh zion right now i i did a thing on my podcast a couple weeks ago about unicorns and how like when you came in the league i'd never seen anybody like you you were like a one-on-one i was like what the fuck is this this guy's six five he's

jumping over people for rebounds he's a a freight train. He's grabbing a rebound. He's going coast to coast and taking it. I was like, what is this? Zion reminds me a little bit of that, but he's also, he's got his own unique stuff. When you watch Zion, does he remind you of you? Well, every undersized power forward they compare to me. My only, first of all, I like Zion a lot.

He seems like a great kid, but I'm not sure why he's not rebounding the ball. You know, he go games where he get three or four or five rebounds, and he should be a double-digit rebound guy. He should never have – like one of my rules was I never want to get less than 10 rebounds a game. Yeah. I think I went 14 straight years where I averaged double-digit rebounds. He's a lot more explosive to me, but he only uses it on offense.

He's got to be a better rebounder. That's the only problem I have with him. I don't even know what he's averaging rebound wise but it should be 11 or 12 I have that for you I was going to read you the stats year 2, now you had better teammates so your stats weren't like I think

what they would have been if you were on a worse team but you were 20-13 57% field goal, 7.2 free throw attempts Zion's 24-7 60% field, 7.2 free throw attempts. Zion's 24 and 7, 60% field goal, 7.6 free throw attempts. The 7 jumped out at me. I don't understand. I'm with you. I don't understand how he's not a 10.

How does Luka Doncic average two and a half more rebounds a game than Zion? That makes no sense to me. Yeah, that's the thing. When I watched him play, because, you know, I got somebody, people always ask me that, so I want to be able to say it correctly. The only problem I have with his game is he's just not a good enough rebounder for me. But, man, he's a lot more explosive, but he's only explosive on offense.

So he's got to do a much better job of making an impact on the game, on the rebounding side of the game. To be a great player, you have to have at least two ways you affect the game. You have to, I mean, you can be an all-star and a very good player,

but to be a great player or a superstar, you have to be able to win the game multiple ways. And that's always been the criteria. And there's a lot of guys who go out here and they just get you 25, 30 points and have no other impact been the criteria. And there's a lot of guys who go out here and they just get you 25, 30 points

and have no other impact on the game. That's an all-star. That's not a superstar. Well, you know why you probably get that Zion question a lot? I think it's really hard for a shorter guy to be overpowering in a basketball game. When we think about overpowering dudes, you think about like Will Chamberlain,

think about Shaq, think about what Embiid's like this year. And then you think about LeBron, who's basically Karl Malone's body, but with Magic's mindset. But you and Zion, I think, are probably the only two smaller forwards I remember that feel overpowering at times.

And that's the thing. I don't think he's as explosive as he was at Duke. I still don't feel like he's 100% health-wise. But he has these moments where he takes over games the same way you did. Yeah, but the only problem is he only does it offensively. Right. So that's my only gripe. Well, that was the rap on you back in the day in the mid-'80s.

People were like, he can't guard anybody. Then you became a solid defender, I think. Yeah, I mean, I got better, but I was still going to get you 10 to 15 rebounds a night. If you get 10 to 15 rebounds a night, you're making an impact on the game. I mean, I'm still the shortest guy to ever lead the league in rebounding, and that's one of my most precious stats.

But, like, I never got less than 10 rebounds a game for at least a 10-year or 12-year period. Because the scoring thing, anybody can score. Because if you're a great player, you don't get X amount of plays ran for you. But if you get 10, 12, 13 rebounds a night,

you're making an impact on the game. Did you lie about your height when you came out of college? Were you saying you were like 6'6", 6'7"? You know, Bill, that's a great question. I don't think that I was lying. I think it just depends on who measures you and what kind of shoes you're wearing. I truly believe that. Because I have been measured in shoes and I have been measured bare feet.

So I really think it just depends who mentioned you, to be honest with you. I never felt with you. I never felt the height thing, even like seeing you in person. And it was clear, like, obviously you're six inches shorter than McHale and stuff like that. But it didn't it didn't play out that way. Like in the game, you were still your hands were above everybody else's hands. So it didn't really matter. David Thompson was like that, too, where it was like he was six hands, so it didn't really matter. David Thompson was like that too, where it was like,

he was 6'3", but it felt like he was 6'7". Well, a couple things. Number one, I actually have really long arms, believe it or not. I can stand beside a guy who's 6'7", maybe even 6'8", and we reach up and my hands are higher. Yeah. But I think the main thing, man, it's just about being physical.

Like, I want to hit everything that's moving. Because as tall as a guy is, if you got your body on him, he can't jump to explore his height. You know? So anybody who's guarding me,'s around me i'm hitting their ass every single time but like i say you might be 6'10 but you're not 6'10 when you can't jump if somebody hitting you with their ass or their elbow or their shoulder so the main thing is i have to keep physical contact on the guy i'm playing against so he. So he's not able to use his height to his advantage.

That's just the main thing. Well, that's what was so much fun about you and Moses together. I remember there was some crazy stat about the combined offensive rebounds you guys had that year. It was some number that had not been approached by a pair. And Moses, I remember writing about in my book, he had that trick where on offensive rebounds, he would basically go almost out of bounds, and then he would back in under the basket, and then he'd be right there for tipping. And teams could never figure out how to stop it.

I haven't seen anybody else really use that trick. He was a one-on-one with that. Well, you know, he's the most important person in my basketball career because, you know,'s the most important person in my basketball career because you know he got me in shape yeah when i first got to the nba bill i was 295 pounds somewhere and i played in college around between two always between 290 and 300 pounds and i was in college for three years and i led the sg SEC and rebounded every year. And then when I got to the NBA,

I wasn't in good shape. And I remember me and Moses lived in the same building. And I went upstairs and I said, Moses, can I come up and talk to you tonight? He said, come on up, big fella. And I said, why am I not getting a play? And Moses, who was like, yeah, I've heard. When he speaks, everybody listens. He didn't say a lot.

But when he spoke, everybody listened. He says, say a lot, but when he spoke, everybody listened. He says, Charles, you're fat and you're lazy. I'm like, what? He says, you're fat and you're lazy. He says, you're lazy because you're fat. And number one, after I stopped crying, he said, Charles, you've got a lot of talent, but you're not in good enough shape to work hard. And this guy met me before practice,

after practice. I lost 10 pounds to get to 290. He said, let's keep going. I get to 280, 270, 260, 250, which is what I played at. And if this old guy hadn't taken the time to take care of a little fat kid from Alabama, I might have ate myself out of the NBA. And I've seen that happen to a bunch of guys over my career who couldn't get their weight under control. So I tell people, man, Moses is by far and away the most important person in my career. But also I'm proud of myself for listening to him. You know, Billy, a lot of our kids don't listen to old people.

They think we're full of shit. I'm glad I was smart enough to listen to Moses, and the rest is history. Right. You're giving basically the exact same speech to Oliver Miller eight years later, and he doesn't listen. Yeah, it didn't work. That one didn't work out that good for me.

It's a very interesting thing because I went through the same stuff with Coutinho, Mobley, and Steve Francis later in my career when I got traded to Houston because the league had changed because they were bringing so many young kids in. But you got to remember something. When I got to Philly, I had Doc, Moses, Maurice Cheeks, Andrew Toney, Bobby Jones, Clemon Johnson, Clint Richardson.

I mean, I had great guys around me who taught me how to dress. They taught me how to save my money. I mean, they taught me stuff that's bigger than basketball. But somewhere along that way, we started drafting kids younger and younger. They phased out all the old guys. And so then

we became the last old guys trying to work with the young guys, and we were just like a pain in their ass holding back, and they didn't listen to us. Yeah, that was a weird time for the league. I always call it the too much, too fast, too soon era. That stretch

from basically Shaq's draft all the way through maybe the 98 draft where these guys are coming in, they're making big money right away. They're famous out of the gate and they probably don't want to hear some of the lessons from some of these people.

I do feel like it's corrected itself though. I've been really impressed by the last 10, 12 years of draft classes. And these guys come in, they're really mature. They're finished products. I think they, they handle their business the right way. They're pros. You see guys who are 20, 21, 22 years old who really seem like they have their shit together. I don't feel like that was the case 20 plus years ago.

Well, I think these guys, they got because of social media and things like that, they got more things at their hands. I personally don't like the basketball personally. Because, you know, I can't remember the last time a rookie really made an impact, to be honest with you. And I think that hurts the game. I'm thinking, you know, you look at this year, the ball kid's probably a favorite for rookie of the year. The kid in New York quickly is doing fantastic. But I don't think any of these other guys are really doing anything.

You go back the last few years. I mean, Luka won Rookie of the Year, but he's not really a fair rookie. Yeah. So I would really love to see some of these guys stay in college for a minimum of two years. Because I think it hurts our game, honestly, because our game is designed where bad teams get help. And they're not getting that right now.

I tell people, you want somebody to come in ready to play. And I understand the agents. The agents are scumbags. They want them to get to the money as soon as possible. They can get to the second contract. But I always look out what's good for the game. Hey, if I'm a fan and I'm paying these outrageous prices for tickets, and

my team is in last place, I don't want a guy who might be good in five years. I want a Larry Bird, a Magic Johnson, a Carl Malone, a John Stockton, a Charles Barker. I want somebody coming in ready to play right now. I don't want them to bring in a little skinny kid

who's 170 pounds, and in four or five years, he might be good. So we disagree a little bit on the caliber of player that's coming into the NBA today. Yeah, I was talking more the off-the-court stuff, the personality, the person that's coming in now. They're way more polished.

Even somebody like, I remember when Tatum was a rookie on the Celtics and he would give interviews. He'd be like, how the fuck does he know how to give an interview already? He's 19, you know? I think that him going to Duke, even though it was for one year, being around Coach Krzyzewski and things like that. Because I know Mike is a great coach, obviously, but he's a good dude. So I think it wouldn't surprise me if they did some media training

at Duke. And the same thing with Zion. I think Zion is very polished for his age. But I think also it depends on the people around you and the school you go to. Yeah.

Well, when you talk about rookies and situations, LaMelo is in a really good situation. And part of it is because MJ overpaid for Hayward. We thought Hayward's been really good. He's finally been healthy. He's a borderline all-star. Last year, they allegedly overpaid for Roger. I made fun of them for it roger's been

really good he's been better than kemba and that team is solid that team's first in their division right now so you see like lamello kind of fits in with what they have and that's been really good for him if he had gone to like minnesota and he was playing with all those dudes and that's basically like a fantasy team not a basketball team i don't know if he would be even close to the same success. Well, I think you have to give Michael credit for a couple reasons. Number one, he did a great job with LaMelo. Like I said, he's probably the front runner for Rick of the year if he stays healthy.

Yep. Also, the Celtics miss Goran Hayward. The Celtics miss Goran Hayward. The Celtics miss Goran Hayward. You know, he's – I think sometimes people, when they talk about basketball, they don't really know what the hell they're talking about. And it drives me crazy. They're like, whoa, he's overpaid and he doesn't fit. They're going to be much better without him. I'm like, I'm not sure about that.

And he's done a good job in Charlotte. I mean, he's done a good job in Charlotte. So these guys, man, Haywood is, the Celtics really miss Haywood when you watch him play. Yeah, it's funny. Obviously, I'm a huge Celtic fan. He had a moment last year,

the first like seven, eight games of this season when he finally seemed healthy. And then he broke his finger and he was out. And then he came back and it wasn't the same. Then it was like, oh, in the bubble, it'll be great. Sprains his ankle in the first game. I think sometimes people could just be in the, you can have too much baggage with a situation

and a team and a city. And it started to become this thing where it was just like, it was never going to go right for him in Boston. I'm not surprised he's doing well in Charlotte. I feel like he needed to get out of Boston, you know, cause you start your career, you have one of the worst injuries you can have in a game in the, in the second quarter of your first game with a team. And then it's just, you know, it was one thing after another. And I, and I, at the same time, Tatum and Brown passed him.

He was the third most important forward of the league. I think he wanted to be an important guy again. Yeah. But I think sometimes the way they structured right now, don't mesh together. I think they would have been better with Haywood being their second best player. Uh, cause the way they construct it right now, they're mediocre at best. Like I say, just because somebody's a better player

does not mean it's a better fit. Right. Tatum and Brown are better players, but they might not be a better fit. I'm trying to think of a situation with an NBA. I can't remember right offhand, but I'm pretty sure that was like, hey, we got more talent. Oh, Kyrie's a perfect example.

You know, y'all had Kyrie. It's like, wait a minute. We got Kyrie now. Wait, we got worse results. Just because a player's a better player don't mean you're going to have better results. It has to fit together. It's like a puzzle.

That's been the problem with the Celtics this year. The players don't make sense collectively. They're still missing stuff. You'll watch other teams where it's like the team probably has less talent than the Celtics, but they play well together. I think Dallas is in a unique situation right now. You were talking about when you didn they play well together. I think Dallas is in a unique situation right now.

You were talking about when you didn't play well in a game, you would just go get rebounds. This is one of my favorite things about Bird. If Bird wasn't making a shot, he'd go get 18 rebounds. He'd be like, I'm going to affect the game this way. I do think Luka has some of that in him. I love the fact that it's not just that he's filling up the stat sheet Westbrook style with like fake triple doubles and jumping in off the, off free throws,

trying to pad the stats, stuff like that. He actually like, we'll go down and get a couple of the biggest rebounds of the game. And I do feel like he can affect games if his shots not going in, but yet I don't really like watching the Mavericks this year, and maybe a lot of it has to do with Porzingis isn't really Porzingis yet. What do you see with them the rest of the way? Do you feel like they're a sleeper at all, or are you writing them off? I'm writing

them off. I think they rely way too much on Luka. We also talked about this on the show last week, because we had him on. Like, they just give him the ball every single time and say, hey, make a play. And if he makes a play or has a great night, they win. I don't think they use Porzingis way enough in the post. I mean, he's 7'2", and most nights he's getting guarded by a 6'5",

a 6'6", guy. He's going to have a huge advantage. You can't stop him in the post. He never goes in the post. And every time he jacks up a three, I know the guy's saying, thank you, thank you. And you know what they're telling the team they're fun about? They're the worst three-point shooting team in the league.

And they just keep jacking it up. You know, that's one thing I hate about the game today is It's like, hey, we're just going to come to the gym and shoot a bunch of threes. If we make them, it's going to be great. If we don't make them, we're going to lose. All the coaches said that we didn't make enough shots. I'm like, okay, you're the worst shooting three-point shooting team in the league. Why are you shooting so many?

And that's what the Mavs are. But they weigh way too much, rely way too much on Luka. I mean, he's a hell of a player, but the Bulls didn't get a ball to Michael Jordan. Actually, it's a perfect example. I'm going to use that because I was thinking about that because I'm probably going to talk about the Mavs soon. I was like,

you go back and look at that Last Dance documentary, they didn't start having success until remember they told Michael, Michael, you got to stop shooting the ball so much. You got to give other guys. And obviously the rest is history. I feel the same way with Luka, not comparing him to Michael,

but if you watch them play, they give him the ball up and down the court every single time. And you're not going to win like that. Yeah, it's this weird usage rate boom that's happened the last five, six years. And I think it starts with Houston and Harden where they're able to succeed when he has the ball all the time, but then you get to a playoff series and teams see that six, seven times in two

weeks and they're like, all right, we're used to this. We actually know how to stop. The Celtics are in a little bit of this position right now, even though Tatum and Brown, I don't think, are on the level of Luka and Harden, people like that. They rely so much on offense from those two guys. You look at their assists, they're like 28th in assists. Over and over again, those guys have to be the one that are basically

going one-on-one against whoever in the last eight, nine minutes, and they don't have that third score. It's supposed to be Kemba, but they don't have that third scorer. It's supposed to be Kemba. But they don't have that third person to help. They don't have the same kind of ball movement. And there's a stagnancy with some of these teams that Dallas is a great example. Well, they're a perfect example,

but your Celtics are similar the same way too because it seems like they just kind of take turns. They don't just play. They don't play the game. You know, they don't play the game. They just like, okay, it's your time, Jalen. Okay, it's your turn, Jason. Now it's your time, Kimba.

And it don't look like they're just playing basketball. And they're very stagnant. And they're not a lot of fun to watch, to be honest with you. You know, the first year of the heat with LeBron and Wade and Bosh was like that, as they tried to figure each other out. And it was like, all right, your turn this time. All right, let's run a play for Bosh. And it was never like they were just playing pickup.

Well, it's kind of like, I remember when I did the thing on LeBron. I said, LeBron, LeBron's got, they asked him, we're playing your Celtics. And I called out LeBron, I said, LeBron. I said, LeBron, LeBron's got a dance with playing your Celtics. And I called out LeBron. I said, LeBron, when I went to Phoenix, a guy asked me, well, who team is it?

I said, what do you mean? He says, well, it's been Kevin and Dan's team. I said, no, it's my team now. It's my team now. They're with me. I love those guys, but they're with me. And I remember talking to LeBron on the show. I says, he was deferring so much to those other guys. Like, nah, man, you're the best player.

Don't defer. And I think that's when he scored like, it was like the game six. I called him out before game six. I said, yo, man, you don't have to defer to Dwayne Wade or anybody else. I says, this is the way it should work. You're the best player. You get all

the shots you want. These other guys, you just play. But you got a green light. They got like a yellow light, them two guys. But your best player, he can't defer. And LeBron, he went crazy that night, if I remember correctly. We had him out here.

I think that was the first time he had scored 40 for the Heat. And they beat him in game six in Boston. And I said before the game, hey, they're never going to win this thing until LeBron stops deferring and taking over. And he did that night. It was beautiful to watch. It wasn't beautiful for me. I was there.

I didn't have a good time. You guys did this to Embiid last year. And, you know, your show's 20 years. You got a documentary coming out next month. And it's been interesting to watch it evolve as kind of a barometer for what's happening in the league and how it affects some of the players you talk about, right? Because the players are more sensitive than ever these days.

But last year, you had one of the best conversations I think you've ever had on the show about Embiid where there was real disappointment. And Shaq talked about what he didn't see from Embiid, what he needed to do, and you talked about it. And basically, you were all like, hey, man, you got handed the complete carwash package here. You're not taking care of it. You're not in good enough shape. You have to be better. This, this isn't good enough

what we're seeing. And I do, he talked about it after it seemed like it resonated with him. And then when you watch what he's doing this year, where he is in shape, where he can play four quarters in a row without getting tired, where he's dominating, where he's added stuff to his game. Like I do feel like you guys played a small part in that. Like, do you feel, do you feel a responsibility with that stuff sometimes? Well, I think we have a responsibility to be honest. I'm going to be a straight shooter, Bill. You know me,

I'm going to be a straight shooter, right? But it's due to be out there shooting threes defenders like thank goodness I'm going to have to wrestle with this big dude in the post and every time he shoots a three the defense like oh thank you now you see this year he's in the post 90% of the time he's just killing

people because you can't guard him you cannot guard this dude he is just too big, too strong, too quick. Because I don't even know who you put on him.

You know, there's certain guys, like a Kevin Durant, a Dirk Nowitzki. You know. Jokic. Yes. Like, okay,

if you put a big guy on him, he's too quick. You put a little guy on him, he's too big for him. little guy on him he's too big for him and then B's in that same category you put a big big goof on him he just gonna go around him every time you put a little guy on him he just gonna kill him in the post and so one thing these guys that they just play basketball they don't think basketball they just play basketball. They don't think basketball. They just play. They don't think. Like, wait, it's a little guy on me. Like, poor Zingas the other night, they had, like, a 6-3 guy guarding him,

and he got out of the post. We highlighted it, like, five times because now everybody switches everything. I'd run a bunch of dummy plays if I was these guys. Like, oh, they're going to switch. We're going to have Porzingis in the post against a point guard or a two guard or a small forward. But these guys don't run dummy plays. They just run their

regular offense. And if Porzingis would go in the post a lot more, and as a matter of fact, when me and Shaq said a couple years ago, Rick Carlisle went crazy on us out of the game. Those guys are just old-timers. And the game's not played like that anymore.

And I'm like, well, first of all, we're going to be fair and honest. Like, if Carlisle and Towns, Porzingis, Embiid, all want to go to put their whole career on shooting threes they're never going to win anything there's no reason for Carl Anthony Towns to be shooting a bunch of threes he's going to have an advantage in the post and on quickness

every single night same thing with M.B. Anthony Davis he'll shoot threes but he spends a lot more time in the post but everybody see now when Joel M a lot more time in the post. But everybody see now, when Joel Embiid's in the post, he's right there in the conversation with LeBron and Donovan Mitchell for MVP this year because he is just killing people in the post. Well, yeah, but you know the answer to this.

It's easier to shoot eight threes a game. It's hard work to go in the post. You get banged around. You got to work on it. You got to take care of it. And, you know, some guys just don't want to do it. I look at it. To me, it's like, it's like football.

I want to do the thing that the other team doesn't want me to do. And you see like even somebody like Giannis, and they've been so determined to turn Giannis into this three-point shooter and this guy who faces the basket. And I'm like, all I know is every time that guy's near the basket, the other team panics. You give them the ball six feet from the basket, all of a sudden people are jumping around.

They're trying to double-team him. They don't know what to do. And it's like, maybe you should do that over having him shoot threes. I 100% agree with you. He never posts up. Ever? I'm like, wait, if he posts up, they would have to double or he's going to score or get fouled.

But they run that offense like, here's Gianna, here's the ball at the top of the tee. Score on these five guys. I'm like, are you kidding me? That's not an offense. I want him near the basket. He is so explosive. He's got such great hands.

He's so good around the basket with tip-ins and things like that. You're putting him 25 feet away from the basket. I know it works during the regular season, but in the playoffs, I want him around the basket. I want him beat around the basket. I want Davis around the basket. You saw what happened to the Lakers last year. They won because they overpowered the other team for four straight rounds.

And the thing that drives me crazy is they've lost, Milwaukee, we're talking about Giannis, they've lost in the playoff the last two years the exact same way. Make him go against the wall. I'm like, okay, the first year, it can work. It shouldn't work anymore.

It worked again. And now, even when you watch them play right now, you can see it's going to end badly for them. They're playing exactly the same way they did the last two years. They're like, oh, they just get a ball to Giannis and let him go one on five. And it's not going to work. It's going to work against Oklahoma, Orlando, Sacramento,

the Wizards, the Hawks. But it's not going to work in the playoffs. It didn't work. It's not going to work against even Boston, who's mediocre. It's not going to work against them in the playoffs. It's not going to work against Miami. They're mediocre, too. I'm not even talking about Philly

and Brooklyn in that situation. Well, Brooklyn played Milwaukee early in that hard and trade, and it became a game of three on three in the last five minutes. And guess what? Brooklyn's Brooklyn's three guys are just better at scoring than Milwaukee's best three guys. And you can feel it in the game.

It's like, yeah, Milwaukee's playing well, but Brooklyn's just slightly better than them. And I, I, I'm already trying to reconcile the fact Brooklyn's going to win the East. If, unless, unless somebody gets hurt, they're going to get some sort of buyout guy to help out. Cause Deandre is, you know, he's pretty mediocre or worse at this point. They'll get a buyout guy, but they're going to win the East unless something, someone gets injured. Well, I feel like Philly in the East, uh, because the, uh, Brooklyn can't protect the

basket. They can't rebound the ball. But is that going to matter? They're just going to outscore teams. They can get two and a half points every possession. Yeah, that sounds good in theory, but you got to... I still...

I wonder what it's going to have when they get in the playoffs when they're all three trying to score. There's going to be less possessions. I think it's... And only one of those guys has proven to me he's willing to sacrifice less possessions. Only one of those guys has proven to me he's winning the sacrifice for the betterment of the team.

That's KD. Is that Joe Harris? What now? I thought it was Joe Harris. I was kidding. He's the ultimate sacrifice guy. He's never going to get the shots he deserves and the attention he deserves playing with those three guys.

You put him with Philly, Milwaukee, he'd be a hell of a pick-up. I take him on the Celtics. Let me give you the case for Brooklyn falling apart in the playoffs. It's in three parts. One, you just mentioned. Those three guys in crunch time and close games. Who wants to, who wants to grab the steering wheel, all looking at each other. And then it's just being off Nash as a rookie coach and then them not being able to get stops. So there is a path. I just

feel like they're sealing when I think about them versus Philly, because I think it's going to be them versus Philly in the East finals. And Simmons to be them versus Philly in the East Finals. And Simmons is going to be guarding either Harden or Durant. Okay, so he can shut one of those guys down. But let me ask you another question. If the Celtics, the Celtics actually could get them a handful or two, because if

Kimball can get it going, Taylor Brown, they're going to be able to really get their thing going against Brooklyn. So what happens is when you play like they play, you can make a good team really good because Tobias

Harris is going to score. And B's going to score. Simmons can shut one of those guys down or he can post one of those two guys up. So they make things harder on themselves. If they played a little defense, they'd be easy.

They'd be tough to beat. But because the way they play is like, wait, Tobias Harris is going to score against James Harden or Kyrie. That's a fact. They got nothing for Embiid. Nothing for Embiid. But the other thing is Simmons is going to be like, Tob other thing is Simmons is going to be

like, Tobias Harris and Simmons are going to be able to score against Harden and Kyrie. That's a no-brainer in my opinion. And Harris. I think if I'm Brooklyn, it all looks good on paper. And I still think

they're going to win these. It all looks good on paper, but we haven't seen it. We haven't seen these guys together. The coach hasn't been in this situation, all of these different pieces. I still feel like if Embiid averaged 40 points a game in that series, I still feel like Brooklyn could beat them. I'm just penciling in 38 a game for Embiid.

I still think Brooklyn could get to 122, 125 points a game in a playoff series. And my question for Philly is, how do you get to the number of points per game that you're going to need to beat them four times? Philly scored 116 last night without Joe

LMB. Right. And they lost. They gave up like 130. I know because, number one, Utah's playing fantastic. But also, Ben Simmons had 45, 44, 45. So he proved to me, like, man, this guy, he was posting up a lot last night. So listen, that's what's going to be fun watching the playoffs. You know, Steve Nash has never been there before.

Those guys never been on the pressure before. And everybody said, well, they have been on the pressure before, but not together. No. I mean, because now you've got to worry about the egos, like, oh, I want to be the guy who makes this next shot, the one to get us moving on to the next round. So you never know, because you remember something.

Remember the last time Russ and KD played together and we thought they had come together? Right. 3-1 lead in the West Finals. But they get up 3-1 on the Warriors and they revert back to the way they used to play. Like the first two rounds of the playoffs, they played unselfish. They just played basketball. But when they got up 3-1, I said at halftime,

they were up at halftime in game six. And Ernest says, what do you think? I said, I'm not feeling good right now. And he says, Chuck, they're up three to two. They're up at the half time. I said, Ernie, I saw a lot of bad habits in the first half. They started playing like they used to play. Well, instead of just playing basketball,

somebody wanted to get the credit, wanted to play hero ball. And I remember Ernie coming to me after the game. He says, how did you know that? I said, Ernie, I've been watching basketball a long time. I said, I thought they had got out of this, like, don't worry about who gets the credit. Let's just win the game.

And it worked for five games. Actually, they should have won game five. They didn't shoot well in game five. I went to that game. Yeah, they just didn't shoot well, but they were there. They were ready to take in game five. I went to that game. Yeah, they just didn't. They didn't shoot well, but they were there. They were ready to take that game. The field still went down to the buzzer.

Yeah. But I says, going back to Oklahoma City was one of the best environments. I said, this is their game seven. They better win. And like I say, they were up at halftime, but they played selfish. And I said, oh, shit, Ernie. And he asked me, he said, you think they're going to win? I said, they're not going to win tonight.

They're going back to hero ball. They had made it to three rounds of the playoffs with no hero ball. And the first half of game six, the clinch, they were like, I want people to say I'm the reason we won that series. And they started playing hero ball and obviously lost in seven.

Well, that was the Klay Thompson game, too. That wasn't helping them either. Yeah, but even when Klay was going crazy, they were still up at halftime. Yeah, yeah. No, I know. We broke down that game like two years ago. OKC fell apart more than Klay Thompson won the game. They really did.

The last five, six minutes, they completely fell apart. Yeah, because they were trying to play hero ball. Yeah. You know, one thing about this thing, Bill, very few people don't want credit. Instead of, they were like, I want to make the assist or the basket. You know, one thing I can say about Michael Jordan, hey, John Paxson, Steve Kerr hit two of the biggest shots of his career he just wanted to

win the game he wasn't worrying about hey y'all taking away from steve get ready packs get ready and i think you a great player you like my job is to get other guys open shots it ain't just to make the shot every time can we go back to ben simmons one second? I did a passionate defense of him on Sunday night because basically for, I think he's this guy who's been picked apart a lot, including even by me and some of his offensive stuff. But he is the most important defensive player in the league other than maybe Gobert.

We watched him in the span of three weeks do a really nice job against LeBron, made him work for everything. And then three weeks later, guards Dame Lillard and shuts him down and shuts him down in a way that was kind of staggering to watch. And you just think like, I just, this guy's just one of the best 12, 15 players in the league. He just is. If you're Houston, how do you not get him in the trade over a bunch of picks that you don't know what the picks are going to be? Like, like I can get Ben Simmons. Why aren't I taking that? And then if you're Philly, thank God,

they didn't take it because I actually, I don't know. The more I watched Simmons and especially last night, which was his offensive breakout. And that was the game where it's like, Hey, if he didn't have him bead, if you build a whole offense around him, you gave him the ball all the time, and you let him be this inside-outside guy who created for himself and others, you could be a playoff team just with that.

No, no, we haven't seen it. We saw it last night. So where do you stand on Ben Simmons right now? Until you learn how to shoot, he's going to be an all-star. Can't be a superstar until you learn how to shoot the ball. Because the one thing we're sure of, Bill,

the ball always finds a guy who can't shoot in the playoffs. He's a great defender. He's a hell of a player. But at some point, he's going to have to make a shot, a big shot.

Right now, he's so reluctant to shoot the ball. I think that's going to have to make a shot, a big shot. And right now, he's so reluctant to shoot the ball. I think that's going to always come back to vitamin S. He's got to learn. Like, I think he's afraid to shoot the ball. He wasn't afraid last night. Well, he was just, that was just layout. Like, if you keep him in a little box, I mean, he's great around the basket. But I'm saying, under pressure, they're going to double Embiid.

And that's actually a great point you make. Why is he that aggressive offensively when Joel Embiid is not there? That's actually a great point you just made. He was great and aggressive last night. Why is he like that when Embiid's there? It would only make the team better. I mean, he's not going to get 40 points. But I wonder how many times he's got...

It'd be a great stat. How many times he had 20 points when Embiid on the floor? That would be a great stat. Well, two things have changed for him, right? One is that he knows they tried to trade him. They can say what they want now, but we know that

he was in that hardened trade and that if it had gotten to the point where Houston wanted that more than the picks they got from Brooklyn, they would have done it. The second thing, you know, the Doc Rivers piece can't be underrated. And I know he's had some playoff collapses

over the years, but he does have with stars the ability to pump them up and push for them and kind of be like kind of a cross between a coach and a big brother. And I do think he's helping those guys. I do think he deserves some credit for Embiid and Simmons,

how they're playing this year. No credit at all. Don't see Ernie asked me that on the show the other night, Bill. Thanks for watching. It doesn't matter. Ernie asked me, I said, don't even matter, Ernie. Philly's not, Philly's, the only thing that matters for Philly is what happens in the playoffs.

I mean, and I said, Philly, Milwaukee, Lakers, Clippers, if they don't win the championship, it's a lost season. Philly's going to be, they've been one of the three best teams in the East for the last probably four or five years. Unless they get to the finals,

it does not matter. They got to get to the finals to have a successful season. You know, they had to crush the last few years. They blame everything on Brett matter. They got to get to the finals to have a successful season. They had to crush the last few years. They blamed everything on Brett Brown. They blamed everything on Brett Brown. My toast wasn't cooked enough. Oh, it's Brett Brown's fault.

I ordered a medium well steak and it's not well enough. It's on Brett Brown. Now they got a coach. You said they got a coach. Now, Philly's just trying to get through the regular season. And if they don't, same thing with the Milwaukee Bucks. Unless they get to the finals, it's a lost season.

So, I'm not even going to worry about Philly or Milwaukee. I watch them, but like, nah, man. All that stuff don't matter. Y'all got to get to the finals. And probably, Milwaukee's probably got to win it, because they've had the best record in the East like three years in a row. But Philly, I think if they get to the finals,

that could be somewhat of a good season. But the same thing with the Clippers. Yo, man, y'all threw your coach on their bus. You said he was the reason. So, no, they got to get to the finals or win it. I mean, the Lakers, they got to win it because they've already won it. But the Clippers, the Sixers, and the Bucs,

they got to get to the finals or their season is awful. Who do you think the Lakers would rather not play in the finals? Philly or Milwaukee or Brooklyn? Who do you think they would not want to see? Well, it's interesting you say that because it depends on the matchup. You see, they ain't got nobody to have a... LeBron against KD, that would be a great matchup. If LeBron can... No, he used to be a great defender. What canBron against KD, that would be a great matchup. If LeBron can, you know,

he used to be a great defender. What can he do against KD? That'd be great to watch. But they ain't got nobody to handle AD. But this dude is always hurt. Like, he was the biggest difference in them last year. When he's down there in the post, he would kill

Brooklyn. He would kill Brooklyn. They got nobody to handle him. But same thing. It's all about matchups in a seven-game series. It's all about matchups. Hey, I think they would rather

play, I think Brooklyn, to be honest with you. Interesting. I think Brooklyn would be the team they wouldn't want to play because they're such a weird team. Because you think about it, seven-game series. It's an easy seven

games, though. For Anthony Davis, he's going to have his way. LeBron's going to have his way. Those other guys, they know Kyrie and James ain't going gonna play defense so that's gonna make a farewell poke

like it's kind of like a boxing match yeah like if you're gonna fight a guy and y'all just gonna jab each other that's fine now if a guy can knock your ass out you don't want that guy cause like you got to keep your head on a swivel the whole time

you know you talk about see that's one thing those I want that guy. Because, like, you got to keep your head on a swivel the whole time. You know, you talk about – see, that's one thing. Those Rockets teams, those Suns teams coached by Mike D'Antoni, those are easy games. There's no physicality. We just got to outscore them four times. You know, and scoring, like – well, scoring is going to be easy because they're not going to play in the defense. They're not going to rebound the ball.

Can I give you the case for Brooklyn? Sure. And I don't think they're going to beat the Lakers, but I'm just going to give you the blueprint. They have to win four times in seven games. So you know there will be the one Durant game. You know there will be the one Harden game. You know there will be the one Kyrie game,

where those guys just basically are awesome. And either they win the game or it's like last minute. And then they just need one game where all of them play together and they can throw away the other three games. They could lose by 20 in all of them. But you think like the Lakers, because we've seen this with Miami too. I do think there was some wear and tear in the, in the way last season played out with that bubble and then starting this really fast the next year.

We've seen it affect Miami. Davis is now legit hurt, and it seems like he's going to be out until after the All-Star break. And LeBron's in year 18. Like, you got to factor that in. I know he's superhuman, but at some point there's going to be wear and tear at the Lakers. Well, that's true.

But I'm saying the wear and tear won't show up against Brooklyn because it's not going to be a physical demanding series. We just got to go to the gym and play like we're playing some street ball. Like when you go back to D'Antoni in Phoenix and in Houston,

it's an easy game to play against. They just going to outscore us. Not going to be physical. We're going to get all the shots we want. They're going to get all the shots they want. We just got to beat them four times. And we think we got the best big guys.

So we're going to get some easy baskets and some foul trouble. Well, I still feel like Brooklyn, the chance of them getting a buyout guy that's going to piss me off where they'll be like we have Andre Drummond now how'd you get Andre Drummond? Yeah Cleveland couldn't trade him they bought him out, now he's in Brooklyn net

well first of all I agree with you I think if they get one quality big guy I think they do become the favorite I truly believe that I mean but they're looking just talking to some people I know in the NBA, they've been really trying for the last month. They realize, like, yo, man, we can't rebound the ball.

And it's like an open-door policy going to the basket on us. Well, they panicked. They threw Jared Allen in that trade to get one more crappy pick. I still don't feel like they should have traded him. I think I'm doing anything I can to keep him. I'm doing anything I can to keep him too. I'm a big Jared Allen fan. I would have never traded him.

That was weird. I didn't get that. Wait, one more thing I have for you. The fact that we thought the center position was dead and now we have Embiid and Jokic who have kind of reignited it, and

we're seeing stuff night to night at the center position, plus Gobert and the effect he's had on Utah. Feels like centers are kind of back. Like, this is... We wrote them off. We had the funeral. Centers are back. Bill, they should have never fucking left.

Like, the thing that's really interesting about the NBA today, the Warriors are the greatest. When they had KD, Steph, and Clayton, they were the greatest shooting team probably ever. Agree? Yes.

There are seven more teams. Going back to KD's last year in Golden State, there are seven more teams. The Rockets are an outlier. So there are six more teams shooting more threes than the Warriors. That's absurd. That's absurd. I talked about it on the air.

I says, I got all my numbers. I said, there are eight more teams shooting threes, more threes than the greatest shooting team we've ever seen. I said, the Rockets? Okay, they do their thing. But what are these other six teams thinking? What are they thinking? And then you go back, you're like,

Carl Anthony Towns number one three-point shooter most attempts on the wolves like why first of all if your best shooter is seven feet tall your fucking team sucks and the wolves suck and I says why in the world Joel Embiid the biggest most imposing big man in the NBA since Shaq. Why is he out there shooting threes? Joker, he just played a game. That's why he's brilliant. But this notion, like, I'm trying to think of another decent big guy.

DeAndre Ayton. DeAndre Ayton should be the smallest people in the post. And they got him standing around. He don't post up nearly enough. But this notion that, wait, I don't want my big guy shooting threes. Because I always tell people about threes. Number one, it does a couple things for you. Number one, it lets the defense off the hook.

It makes the guy lazy. But also, your team never gets into foul trouble if your big guy is not. First of all, if you put your big guy in the post, he's going to draw a double team. So you're going to get wide-armed threes instead of contested threes. And I think wide-armed threes are a lot better than contested threes.

So it's a lot of things going on. These guys make the game, hey, oh, Carl Anderson Towns, you're seven feet tall. Maybe you should post up every now and then because of these other football. I mean, think about this here, Bill.

When he plays against the Houston Rockets, they put all them six, five guys out there. Why in the world would I shoot threes if I'm seven feet tall against the Houston Rockets?

I'm trying to think. Well, you know, on the flip side of this, like I like how Julius Randle's playing this year. The Knicks have kind of rejuvenated his game, and he's an inside-outside guy. He can face up, but he also will post up. Sabonis is another guy like that. There are people that mix it up and it's effective.

I think Sabonis is one of the 10 best 10 to 15 best players in the NBA. I think Shaq and McKinnon went crazy the other night when I said Sabonis is one of the 10 best 15 players in the league. And Julius Rondo should be an all-star

this year. He's played fantastic. But I'm glad you mentioned Sabonis because he's one of the 10 to 15 best players in the world. I mean, he's unbelievable. Yeah, I think there's big guys who are creative in the way that like, you know, you also have a little Suns comeback

which the Suns are like a legit you know, they can make round two, possibly even round three if there were some injuries. I think they're a good team. Well, the key is going to be them bringing in Chris Paul. You know, I'm a big Chris Paul fan. Me as well.

I think he's going to be great for Booker. I think he's also going to be great for DeAndre. But getting Jay Crowder was a big deal. I think Jay Crowder is one of the most underrated players in the NBA. He's one of those little guys who like, hey, I'm going to play defense. I'm going to work hard. If I get a shot, I'm going to get a shot, but I'm not going to move and complain about it.

You know, a lot of times when you get certain guys, they're like, I'm not getting shots. I'm just going to move around out here and not do my thing. Jay Crowder's not like that. He works his behind off. And then when they give him a ball, he shoots it. But the rest of the time, he does all the dirty work out there. And the kid Bridges is coming along too.

Cam Johnson too. I like that they're malleable. They can go small or they can play a little bigger depending on who they're playing. I like their crunch time five. I think they play well together. When they have Johnson and Bridges out there with Chris Paul and Aiton and Booker, it's

effective. They play with a certain pace because of Chris. They're at their own speed. Chris, to me, is the key. They make fun of me on the inside because I always say Chris Paul is the best leader we got in the NBA for the last 10 to 15 years. And I think he is.

What he does is he controls the tempo of the game. Like the last few years, they didn't know whether to go fast or slow. There's times you should go fast and there's times you should slow down. Chris is the best in the business at doing that. Steph Curry's like that also. But Chris is just amazing. Before we go, I wanted to mention, it's been funny watching the younger guys,

they get upset at the show sometimes as you're in year 20 here. And I remember even when I was doing a bunch of podcasts with Durant, and Durant in one of the podcasts talked about like, it really hurt his feelings that your show was so critical that the old guys really seemed to resent the new generation shooting too many threes. You don't do this. You don't do that. My day was better.

Um, it feels like this is getting this kind of gap between your generation and the generation that's in the league, it feels like more bitter than it ever was. And I was watching the night when Durant was given one word answers on the show. There was that other weird show. And I actually disagreed with how Shaq handled the Mitchell thing.

I thought it was weird. Cause I think Mitchell's been really good this year and Shaq just kind of came out of the gate, just being a dick to him. Um, but what, what's going on with this whole divide? Well, you said it earlier.

These guys are so sensitive. I learned my lesson from Dr. J. Because there was a couple of critical things written about me when I was just becoming a star. I think it was my second year. He was kind of passing the torch to me. And he just gave me a bunch of advice. And he said, Charles, the first thing I want you to do before somebody writes something bad about you,

take a step back and say, is it true? That's the first thing. Is it true? Now, you can get mad if it's not true. But the first question you have to ask yourself is it true i feel very good about what i say about players it's never been personal if they're going to overreact to everything we said you know what's interesting i i'll tell you this you know they never call me when I said something great about them.

You know? They've never called me. Like, when I said James Harden was the best one-on-one player I've ever seen, and people said, Charles is full of shit. Charles is full of shit. And then, like, the next year, like, Charles is right. James Harden is the best one-on-one player I've ever seen. And I said it. He's not saying I said he's not

Ben Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant but the way the game is today he's a better three-point shooter than those guys he can shoot free throws just as good and he can finish just as good James Harden is the best one-on-one player we've ever had in the NBA the way it's structured

today he didn't call me and say thank you but if I've been critical about how much he dribbles and said it wouldn't be fun to watch the way it's structured today. He didn't call me and say thank you. But if I've been critical about how much he dribbles and say it wouldn't be fun to watch him dribble all day, him and his little Darryl Maury get upset. I'm like, wait, y'all didn't call me when I said he's the best one-on-one player. You know, but listen, I'm not going to change my approach.

I have an obligation to the fans to be honest and straightforward. These guys want to get all bent out of shape. That's on them. And I want to make it clear, I'm definitely not one of those get off my lawn guys. All I've said, and we just had a conversation about it, you're saying there's a rebirth of big men.

I'm like, no, the big guys finally took their big ass down to the post instead of shooting threes. Like I say, if you guys want to shoot threes, that's fine. But there's no reason for Carl Anthony Townsend, Embiid, the kid here in Phoenix, the Joker. The Joker very seldom shoot threes. I mean, I says, why am I? So if they think that's critical, that's fair. But, uh, I have none against these guys. And I don't know.

You know what it is though? I think this is the biggest piece of it. Other than it's a generational thing. They all check their Twitter replies all day. They check their Instagram, their Twitter, all that stuff. And when you guys hammer somebody or you're even critiquing somebody, it becomes a three minute clip that's in their Twitter replies in 20 minutes. And you have all these, like, it's almost like a tattletale type thing where be like, Oh, Barkley check lit you up, you know? And they read that.

And then they just get mad and they watch the clip. They get mad or they don't see the context of it. And again, I, sometimes it's gone overboard. I thought the Shaq Mitchell thing, as I said, was, was pretty over the top, but for the most part, I just think that's people see it and they consume it and react faster than 10 years ago. Cause I remember, I thought one of the best shows we've talked about this. One of the best shows you ever had was 2010 LeBron's last calf season, that game five he had against Boston when he just kind of disappeared. And it was really weird. And you guys came on and you were all like so profoundly disappointed because you had believed

he was a greater player than that. And you had this honest conversation about like, what just happened? How are we supposed to feel about this guy now? I think if that you fast forward that 10 years, then it becomes dissected the same way it does in this weird social media generation we're in now, where it's just like, Barkley Shaggert, here's the clip, and it becomes a thing. I agree with you, brother.

I mean, but we got to do our job. I agree. I mean, like, I bet, let me use you as an example. I think the Celtics are mediocre. You know, and I think you agree with me. That's not a criticism. That's just a fact. The Celtics, the way they are currently constructed,

are not going to win in the playoffs. Like, just because Danny Ainge is a friend of mine and you're a fan of the Celtics, I don't expect you to get on your podcast and say, my Celtics are contenders. I'm like, Bill, please stop. And that's not critical. That's just a fact. Now, if they prove

us wrong, we'll say it. We were wrong. But, like, right now, doing your job, which you agreed at, you know I got a lot of love and respect for you like you can't get on any network or your podcast and say yeah we're contenders you know that like

just cause you love yourself is like yeah we're not gonna win the championship the way we set up right now I always default to that example you talked about with Dr. Dre like Dr. J. Is it true? If you're going to say something like, do you really believe it?

Can you prove it? I have certain small biases. I don't really like the whole Atlanta Trae Young thing. And then the Hawks fans are like, you hate Trae Young. Why do you hate Trae Young so much? It's not that I hate Trae Young. I just hate that they set up this system where they treat him like he's a superstar. He hasn't won anything. He gets to take any terrible shot he wants. He,

that everything runs through them. Everything's catered to him. They built this whole specific team to try to make him like he's, you know, Larry Burton is prime. And it's like, I don't know if he's a winning player. Is it okay for me to say that? Listen, see, fans want two things. Fans only want two things, Bill.

Tell me my team is the greatest team since sliced bread. Tell me my favorite player is great. And if you venture off that, they're coming for you. And I agree with you on the Hawks situation. I do.

I 100% agree with you on the Hawks situation. But man, fans, because like, and first of all, it's their fans and their family. Like, Charles hates this guy. Like, no, I don't. I just told you the truth. But

I'm not going to change. Well, I think we both see it the same way. My goal with any player construction of a team is, can I win basketball games? Can I win playoff rounds? And I think Trae Young is incredibly talented. Like, he's a really good offensive player. The way they're constructing and thinking about that team is just not,

you're not going to win playoff rounds. You're just not. And I 100% agree with you. 100% agree with you. You know what's funny, though? You mentioned, because when I did the studio show for ESPN for two years, and I got a taste of what it's like to where basically every

franchise fan base thinks you hate them. Yeah. And we had a San Antonio Miami finals and in both cities, the fans were setting up and the fans were like, why do you hate us so much?

Why do you hate the Heat? And then you go to San Antonio and it's like, why don't you respect Tim Duncan? I'm like, so I hate both teams? Like. No.

Like, so my favorite is Ernie says, who are you going to pick in a series? I'm like, who are you going to pick in a series? I'm like, I'm going to pick this team. So one city I go to, they love me. One city I go to, they hate me.

I'm like, first of all, I don't even give a shit who wins. Let's get that out of the way. But Ernie, I get paid to answer the question. Well, I'm going to take this team. And they do. But you know who talks to me a lot about that? Vern Lundquist and Gary Danielson. Vern's like, you know, they do the SEC,

which is the worst fan bases in the history of civilization. You don't say everything good about my SEC school. I hate your ass. And I have friends, when I'm in Alabama, I have friends like, oh, we got, we on CBS this week. Byrne, Lundquist, and Gary Danielson hate us. And I got Alabama fans. Man, Byrne, Lundquist, and Gary hate us.

And I'm like, why do y'all think that? I said, I know Byrne. I know Byrne really well. And Gary I like. I don't know him as well as I know Byrne. I said, I know Vern. I know Vern really well. Gary, I like. I don't know him as well as I know Vern. I said, they don't give a shit who wins. I said, I know both of those guys. They don't give a shit about Alabama and Auburn football.

They're here to do their job. But fans hear what they want to fucking hear, Bill. Plain and simple. I felt it last year in the bubble. I was convinced Stan Van Gundy hated the Celtics in the Celtics-Raptors series. And I texted Levitar, and I was was convinced Stan Van Gundy hated the Celtics and the Celtics Raptors series. And I texted Levitar and I was like, what does Stan have against the Celtics?

Did we not give him a job? And then he told Stan and Stan got mad at me. But I was like, look, fans are irrational. That's what makes fans great. So I get it. It's just kind of funny. Like basically we're in this. You're in it as funny, right?

You're in it both ways. But basically we're in this, you're in it as funny, right? When you're in both ways, but when, when you're feeling like, Oh, both fan bases think I hate them. And these two teams are playing each other. Like, obviously the only thing we're really rooting for is a great series when

you're in the middle of it. Right. And that's like that San Antonio, Miami, that first year I did countdown was one of the great series of all time. You know, that was the Ray Allen shot. That was Tim Duncan's

incredible game seven. I didn't care who won. I just wanted awesome basketball. I always tell people, who are you rooting for? I said, I want this shit to be over as quick as possible so I can get to golf course and fishing. I said, the sooner these series are over, the sooner I can get to vacation. I mean, I don't care who

wins. I got friends on both, coaches on both sides I like. There both, coaches on both sides I like. There's some players on both sides I like. I just want it to be over. If somebody wins 4-0, 4-1, 4-2, the sooner I can get to the golf course and the sooner I can go fishing. But I said, dude, I don't care who wins.

I never get the fact that people think we care who wins. It makes me laugh every time. Do you want an all-Star game to happen? I think the way they're doing it is, I think it's unfair. Because a couple things. So when we got out of the bubble, they're like, you guys got two months, three months off

before we start again. They called me back three weeks later. Hey, we're going to start in a month. I'm like, what? You know what? So these guys only got like six weeks off. So they told them we were going to have two to three months off. They called us in three weeks and we're going to start before Christmas.

So these guys, I'm like, man, that's a lot on these guys bodies and they said okay we're going to give them 10 days off all-star game i'm like well because i said hey the guys want to make money so they got to come back but they told me it's going to give an all-star game off then they come back like a month ago like hey we're going to lose too much money. We need to play the All-Star game. I says, hey, let me tell you something. That's going to go over not well at all. As these guys have been playing basketball basically straight for a year,

especially teams that made it deep in the playoffs, they by this guy to get a break at some point. And they're like, no, we need to play. And I said, I knew it wasn't going to go over well. And the mistake I think the NBA is making is they're trying to rush everything so these kids can play in the Olympics. Yeah, who cares? Get rid of the Olympics.

Seriously. No, and I'm really serious about this, Bill. They act like it's going to be the end of the world if we don't win the Olympics. I said, first of all, I think it would be great if we didn't win the gold medal. I said, if some little country won the gold medal, it would make basketball so popular in that country.

I said, first of all, LeBron, Kevin Durant, James Harden should not want to play in the Olympics anymore anyway. We should be sending college kids or guys who've been in the league one year. Yeah. Why aren't we sending college kids? Why are we even thinking about pros? All those guys are working out for the draft anyway. I think we proved our point,

that we're the best basketball player in the world. I don't understand at all. And I don't understand, you know, I think Adam Silver, I think he's done a better job than David Stern overall. I think stuff like the...

Ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. Yeah. Now that was just blasphemous. Well, I'm saying the last seven, eight years of Stern versus the first seven, eight years of Silver, I think Silver's done a better job. Stern overall is a more important, bigger figure, stuff

like that. I'm just saying. Okay. Yeah. Adam has had some doozies since he's been in office, but we're lucky to have Adam. But man, he's had some doozies. He's had some serious doozies to handle going back to Sterling and things like that. Now we're in the middle of a

pandemic. Hey, listen. It's a tough call, to be honest with you. I don't think it's a tough call. Don't have the All-Star game. Give the people 10 days off. Lose some money. It's fine. Let me tell you why, though. Bill.

I was having drinks with some friends that night and we were talking about this the only people making money in the world right now are jocks all the restaurants are losing money all the businesses are losing money, all the NBA teams are losing money

all the NFL teams are losing money so these guys man, I feel, number one, for real people in the world who have lost their job and lost their business, but they haven't killed any NBA or NFL contract. And we're playing sporting events, and these guys want all their salaries. And I tell them, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Hey, there's nobody out here working now. You can only have one third of people at restaurants. These guys are honoring your contracts.

So you're making 30, $40 million a year to dribble a stupid basketball. And the only way they can recoup some of their money is to play basketball. So I'm not going to cry for these guys. Yeah, but how much money do you make for an all-star game? I can't imagine. It's like a game changer. It's one night. They probably get $50,000 to the winner and $30,000 to the loser.

Man. Well, I think it's going to get canceled. But our TV partners, which I'm one of. the loser. I think it's going to get canceled. Our TV partners, which I'm one of, listen, I get it. Like I say, man, I tell the guys, y'all the only ones making

money in the world now. Everybody else is fired, got laid off, had to take a pay cut. Just go play basketball. I mean, you got TV partners who've been killed right now, which we're to take a pay cut. Just go play basketball. I mean, you got TV partners who are getting killed right now, which we're one of

them. ESPN getting killed. Are you proud that we just did an hour 20 minutes without talking about LeBron? Because I'm really, I think it was a real achievement. Especially in this media culture now where it's like LeBron has to be discussed.

And then who do you think? LeBron versus MJ, stuff like that. I didn't want to go there. I'm just excited that we did it. And number one, I appreciate it. Me too. Yeah, but listen, man. You know, and I know we've been together for a long time.

I got a lot of love and respect for you. Keep doing your thing, my brother. You too. I had one last thing for you before we you. Keep doing your thing, my brother. You too. I had one last thing for you before we go. This is just super quick fact. The sports card market has exploded. Do you know what your rookie card, your 1986 Fleer highest level mint PSA 10 rookie card

is now worth? What do you think? If you had to guess a price, what would you guess? $50,000? No, $20,000. $20,000? It was like $4,000, $5,000 a couple months ago. And The Last Dance had this whole resurgence

on the basketball card market. And now all the guys from all your rookie card, Jordan, Larry bird magic. It's all like on haywire. I've only escalated that much in 40 years. Well, it's $20,000 for one card is a lot of money.

Damn. I thought you would be excited. You're disappointed. This is funny. Yeah, no. So I don't know a lot about the card market. Well, let me rephrase that. I don't know anything about the card market.

But that's pretty remarkable. But the thing that's funny, when I was playing for the Suns, the guy had me do an experiment where I went to cart stores. Yeah. Half the shit in there, I didn't sign. Oh, they forged the signatures? Yes. Because my signature is, I got it down to the exact signs.

But I went in a bunch of stores. I think only, let's say we had 20 things. I only signed like seven of them. That's hilarious. Yeah. The last dance. I mean, the last dance was good for you too, because it made me feel old. I thought everybody knew this shit and you see everybody under 30, they're watching a, wow, Michael Jordan was great. Wow, Barkley was really good. It's like, yeah, I thought we all knew this. I thought this was already decided. But you realize that people under 30,

they're not going to go back and watch the old games. They had no idea. So I thought it was a really important documentary series for that standpoint. I thought it was important for the simple fact that I forgot how much Michael got beat up and how much he overcame because the person beat him those first three times.

And you see now if you kiss the guy on the cheek, it's a flagrant foul. And you saw, you see like, damn, I mean, cause you know, I'm like, they were beating the hell out of him back in the day.

And he like says, no, we got to get bigger. We got to get stronger. He didn't whine. He didn't bitch. He didn't complain. He just said, I got to get bigger and stronger. And even though I knew that and lived that during that time, you forgot how much. You know, we had Magic Johnson on our podcast the other day. Me and Ernie have a podcast. And he says one of his biggest regrets was, remember the year they lost to the Celtics?

He said, that's one of my biggest regrets. He says, remember when McHale clotheslined? Rambis. He says, we lost that series because we spent the rest of the series trying to fight with the Celtics instead of playing basketball. He said, we had a better team than the Celtics. But once Kevin McHale clotheslined Kirk, we spent the rest of the series trying to get even

or trying to hurt one of those guys, and it cost us the series. And to get back to Michael, he never had retribution on those pistons. He just got up, shot his free throws, and man, some of those fouls, you get suspended for 10 games on some of those fouls today. No question.

McCall might have got suspended for 20 games on that clothesline. If he did it today, there was a worse foul later in the series. Worthy just shoved McKay Maxwell from behind. Cause it was like the, kind of the revenge foul for the Mikael Ramos thing. He just shoves them into the basket support.

And for some reason, everyone goes to the Mikael Ramos, but the worthy things just as bad. The, the thing Rodman did to Pippen was terrible, too. There were some bad ones over the years. But the thing was, hey, that was just two free throws. That's the shit that was funny about it.

Nobody got suspended. I mean, it's crazy to think about. Remember Parrish when he punched Liam Beard and they kept him in the game in game five? He was right in front of the ref. He was literally hitting him five times. I remember when

Lambert grabbed Birdie, he came up swinging. Oh, my God. That was the good old days, man. Well, you had a good one against Lambert once. That's a good YouTube fight. Oh, yeah. You had room to square up like it was a real fight because nobody

had jumped in yet. And I got to say for as dirty and scummy of a player that Lambert was, he didn't back down from fights. He would actually fight for himself. He never won a fight. He was always getting hit. Go back and look at all the fights. He's the guy who started the fight

and he was only getting punched. He never threw a punch. He was always getting hit. Go back and look at all the fights. He's the guy who started the fight and he was only getting punched. He never threw a punch. He was always getting punched. Right. But he would at least seem like he was about to throw a punch. Yeah, you kind of kicked his ass. You know, it's really funny. I always joke with Isaiah Tavis. The Pistons, they caught in a bad boy, but only two of them

can fight. No. Dumar and Isaiah were the only two tough guys on the team. None of the other guys. James Edwards would fight and Bennett Johnson. But all those other players,

none of them would fight. Well, Isaiah. Sally, Rodman, Mahorn. None of those guys would fight. Right. All right, Chuck. It was awesome to see you.

Say hi to the TNT guys congrats on the 20 year anniversary coming up big documentary on March 4th what's the name of your podcast by the way Steam Room me and Ernie alright yeah don't ever invite me on or anything it's not like I would be a good guest coming on soon brother promise you

good to see you thanks for all the time I appreciate it you're welcome brother take care that's it for the podcast don't forget about the Good to see you. Thanks for all the time. I appreciate it. You're welcome, brother. Take care. That's it for the podcast. Don't forget about the rewatchable sleeping with the enemy already up coming to America, coming later this week to podcast week on the rewatchables. I'll be back on this feed on Thursday. See you then. I don't have feelings within on the wayside

I'm a person never I don't have feelings